"Own and others." Submachine gun "Suomi" M26

147
"Own and others." Submachine gun "Suomi" M26

Submachine gun "Suomi" M26. Royal Arsenal, Leeds. Source: royalarmouries.org

God gives to each his own.
First Corinthians 7:17-24

stories about weapons. It all started with the fact that even during the First World War, the German gunsmith Hugo Schmeisser designed the MP / 18-I submachine gun, the production of which at the German arms factory Theodor Bergman began in 1918. This weapon was the first practical submachine gun. And although less than 10 of them were released before the end of the war, he gained such a high reputation that the Treaty of Versailles banned submachine guns among the weapons of the new German army.

It is clear that from the very beginning it is very difficult to create something absolutely perfect. The MP / 18-I submachine gun also had a serious drawback, the magazine of which was far from ideal, because it used a complex and unreliable “snail magazine”, originally developed for the artillery version of the Parabellum pistol.




Corporal of the Finnish Civil Guard with a Bergman submachine gun. Taken in 1920

Shortly after the end of World War I, Schmeisser developed an improved submachine gun design directly based on the MP/18-I for production at the Bergman factories. The main improvement was that it used conventional box magazines. Since it was not possible to produce it in Germany, Bergmann licensed the production of this improved MP / 18-I to the Swiss arms factory SIG (Schweitzerische Industrie-Gesellschaft).

Following the deal, SIG began manufacturing submachine guns in several calibers. And then, between 1920 and 1927, they began to be exported to various countries, including Japan, China and Finland. Japanese and Chinese submachine guns were chambered in 7,63x25 Mauser. The Estonian submachine gun "Tallinn" of the 1923 model, produced in small quantities, was also designed on the basis of the MP / 18-I. The production of submachine guns by SIG ceased in 1927. True, in 1930 the company introduced its improved version, but it did not have much commercial success. In parallel, in Germany, further improvement of the MP / 18-I led to the appearance of the MP / 28-II submachine gun.

And then it turned out that the Finnish machine-building plant of Leonard Lindelöf received a license to manufacture the Bergman submachine gun in 1922. As the name implies, the factory was owned by Leonhard Lindelöf, and the submachine guns that the factory was supposed to produce under license were replicas of the Swiss M/20. Lindelöf had grandiose plans for the large-scale mass production of submachine guns, and he invested in it accordingly. At first, the prospects of this plant looked optimistic, since the first order came very quickly: already in December 1922, the Finnish Civil Guard (Suojeluskunta) ordered 200 submachine guns, identical to the 7,65 mm M / 20 model.

However, the order was executed for eight whole months, so there were even accusations of sabotage. And the whole point was that from the point of view of production, the Bergman submachine gun was a typical submachine gun of the 1st generation - that is, a complex weapon, the details of which were machined from steel on lathes. Therefore, their manufacture was slow and required a large number of tools and equipment. Let's face it, Leonard Lindelöf underestimated the time required to set up production, and delivery delays became a direct violation of the contract, which is why Suojeluskunta canceled her order.

This was a heavy blow to the company's reputation, especially since the cunning Swiss immediately offered Suojeluskunta their submachine guns, and at a better price. Lindelöf lost his most important customer, and when the first submachine guns produced at his factory were finally finished in 1925, the factory had to literally force them on the police, customs officers, and coast guards. But they sold only 40 pieces, and 160 pieces were gathering dust in the warehouse.

In 1930, Lindelöf contacted Suojeluskunta again, trying to sell her his remaining submachine guns. However, the Civil Guard lost all interest in them, since the new Suomi submachine gun made the Bergman design obsolete. Shortly thereafter, Lindelöf's factory ran into financial difficulties.

In 1932, he again contacted the Civil Guard, who decided to help the plant by ordering ... ten submachine guns, which the plant was supposed to make from unfinished parts. The plant gave her a dozen ready-made submachine guns as a pledge. But once again, the fulfillment of the contract turned out to be impossible for the plant - as before, the delivery of even these 10 submachine guns was repeatedly delayed. In the end, the Civil Guard was left with no choice but to terminate the contract and take back the 12 submachine guns previously given as collateral.

Lindelöf was finished off by her decision in the same year to purchase only Suomi M / 31 submachine guns instead of his Bergmans. Lindelöf was forced to sell all the equipment and tools for their production at the price of scrap metal. Nevertheless, a small number of Bergman submachine guns manufactured by Lindelöf in Finland were used both during the Second World War and after it. The estimated production of these submachine guns was only about 60 or 70 units. Although the Lindelöf factory never produced firearms again, it did produce some types of small arms during World War II.


Top view of the Bergman and MP/28-II submachine guns. The two pistols look almost the same, so it's often difficult to tell them apart. In this photo, the Bergman submachine gun is at the top, and below it is an MP / 28-II. In this photo, the magazines accidentally ended up next to a submachine gun with which they were not used - a longer magazine for 50 rounds fits the Bergman

Interestingly, the Finnish army in the early 1920s, like most armies of that time, was not interested in submachine guns. Then they generally doubted that this type of weapon would be useful to the military. However, when it came to acquiring new types of weapons, the Finnish Civil Guard (Suojeluskunta) purchased the first batch of 1 Bergman submachine guns as early as 000. By July 1922, she had purchased a total of 1932 submachine guns, of which 1 were 415x1mm and five 410x7,65mm pistols.

But as soon as the Finnish army was convinced of the excellent qualities of the Suomi M / 31, the Finnish Civil Guard decided to follow its example and from that moment began to acquire M / 31 submachine guns instead of the previous Bergmans.


Comparative size of the Suomi M26 and the American Thompson

On September 30, 1939, just two months before the Winter War, the Civil Guard was armed with 25 Suomi M / 26 and only 20 Suomi M / 31, as well as 1 Bergman submachine guns. It is noteworthy that especially in the 415s, the Civil Guard often handed over their Bergman submachine guns to the Border Guard Service, which at that time had practically no automatic weapons of its own.


Finnish soldier with a submachine gun "Bergman"

But ... the Finns would not have "Bergman", they would not have had "Suomi", because, according to Aimo Lahti himself, he had an interest in developing his own submachine gun after he held a pistol in his hands - Bergman machine gun, and was convinced that it could be significantly improved. Lahti thought that he could improve it and ... turned out to be right.

On June 1, 1921, he was accepted as a gunsmith in the Keski-Suomi regiment, and soon after that he began to develop his idea for a submachine gun. The first prototype he ordered was a miniature example in 7,65x17 mm (Browning, also known as .32 ACP), only about 30 cm long, made for him by a Viale blacksmith. This prototype was not a piece of weapon art, but it proved that the design proposed by Lahti is workable.

In 1922, he ordered a full-size submachine gun chambered for 7,65x21 mm Parabellum, in addition to enlisting the support of the commanders of the Keski-Suomi regiment, lieutenant colonels V. Hagglund and E. Heinrichs. Nevertheless, to receive state funding for this development work they failed. In the spring of 1923, this sample was sent to the Ministry of Defense, but did not arouse interest. Apparently, M / 22 was still not very well made, but it had great hidden potential.

In October 1923, Aimo Lahti and Lieutenant Yrjö Koskinen, an officer of the Keski-Suomi regiment, received a patent for the Suomi submachine gun. In June 1924, the submachine gun LLC (Konepistooliosakeyhtiö) joint-stock company was established with two more shareholder officers who served in the same regiment. The other shareholders of this new commercial venture were Captain V. Korpela and Lieutenant L. Boyer-Schuff (who later changed his surname to Poijärvi). In total, the company issued 150 shares. Of these, Lahti received 45, Korpela 45, Koskinen 30 and Boyer-Schuf 30 shares. Since the cost of one share was 500 Finnish marks, then, at least on paper, the total capital of the company was quite large at that time and amounted to 75 Finnish marks.

In 1930, the company sold its Suomi submachine gun patent to Tikkakosken Rauta ja Puuteollisuusyhtiö (Tikkakoski Iron and Wood Industry Ltd) for FIM 65 and a 000% royalty on all Suomi submachine guns produced by the company.


Submachine gun "Suomi" M / 26 with a rather eccentric magazine for 36 rounds. Note the three position fire selector on the side of the weapon and the barrel shroud latch handle in front of the magazine. The store itself could be removed by pressing the lever located at the back against it. The bolt box ends in a screw-on sleeve with four air valve holes behind the bolt handle. To slow down the rate of fire, it used a system with the original vacuum braking of the bolt: both the receiver, and its cover and bolt were so tightly fitted to each other, so that the bolt moved inside, like a piston in a cylinder, and a breakthrough of air between the walls of the receiver and the shutter was practically absent. There was a valve in the receiver that allowed air to pass only out, but not in. When the bolt moved back (after firing), the air from the back of the receiver exited through the valve (in this case, excess pressure slowed down the rollback of the bolt). When the shutter moved forward, the valve closed, a vacuum appeared behind the shutter, and it slowed down the shutter. Due to this, it was possible to somewhat reduce the mass of the shutter, and improve the accuracy of shooting, especially when firing single shots! Royal Arsenal, Leeds

Now Lahti ordered a whole hundred samples of his submachine gun, and in August 1924, the Ministry of Defense of Finland finally became interested in them. In February 1925, the first batch of 13 submachine guns was inspected by the Artillery Directorate of the Finnish Armed Forces. The weapon worked well, but the magazines required custom fitting, and the barrels of some submachine guns had time to rust slightly. However, they passed the test, and the army ordered ten more submachine guns in October 1925, 39 in March 1926, and even more - bought all the previously made prototypes. This turned out to be very useful, because by this time Konepistouliosakeyhtiö and its shareholders were almost completely ruined, and any money was very useful to them. Of this series of about 100 units, most (more than 60) fell into the Finnish army, but the civil guards and the border guards also got some of them, and five submachine guns were sold to Estonia.

The submachine guns of this production series were later designated M/26 to distinguish them from the M/31. Interestingly, "his" M / 26 cost only about 2 Finnish marks for a submachine gun, while the "Bergman" at that time cost twice as much: 200 Finnish marks. The 4-round sector magazine used in the M/500 was unique in that it was not used in any other weapon. The weight of a full magazine was about 36 grams. Like the later M/26, the M/800 had a quick-change barrel that allowed it to be changed in seconds. Usually a submachine gun was issued along with a spare barrel and a tool bag.


A sentry from the Mänttä supply training center with a Suomi M/26 submachine gun. The ETP road sign next to it is a food supply point. Taken in January 1942

TTX "Suomi" M / 26


Caliber: 7,65x21mm Parabellum (.30 Luger)
Length: 930 mm
Barrel length: 350 mm
Weight: 4,18 kg
Rate of fire: 600/min or 750/min
Shop: 36 cartridges
Production: about 100 produced between 1925 and 1926.

The M/26 never saw real combat use during World War II, but they were used by troops on guard duty behind the lines. During the war, they were apparently issued, but with only two magazines for one submachine gun. They survived until the post-war period, but in 1959 the remaining 57 M/26s were sold to Interarmco and sent abroad in 1960. It was one of the darkest moments in stories Finnish weapons, since along with the usual M / 26, all its one-of-a-kind prototypes were sold. People simply did not understand their historical value. Fortunately, at least they were not scrapped, and they ended up in foreign museums and weapons collectors.


Original sector store

Aimo Lahti himself was not completely satisfied with the M / 26 submachine gun, believing that the supply of cartridges in it was not as reliable as it should have been, and the stock was strong enough for a first-class military weapon. But already during the development of the M / 31 submachine gun, he removed the extra space in front of the bolt (which allowed the cartridge to move to the sides, which jammed the weapon), and the feeding problems disappeared. He also received a slanted cut on the casing, which somewhat reduced the tendency to lift the weapon when firing.

The barrel casing has become simpler and more durable. The example is also larger. But the most important change that happened to the M / 31 submachine gun was the change in its caliber to 9x19 mm "Parabellum", so that the "narrow neck" for 7,65x21 cartridges on the old model had to be somewhat widened. Lahti developed all these improvements, as well as a new 20-round box magazine and a 40-round drum magazine between 1930 and 1931, only there was no factory for the production of this new submachine gun in Finland yet ...


"Suomi" M26 at the National Museum of the Frontier Forces (formerly the British Border Agency), Liverpool, UK

However, there were already materials about M / 31 here at VO, and in this case we are interested in M ​​/ 26 - which became its prototype. Despite the fact that it had to be made on metal-cutting machines in the same way, this submachine gun had an original pneumatic shock absorber and a well-thought-out design, which was an undoubted success for a novice designer, which was Aimo Lahti!
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  1. +5
    April 2 2022 05: 06
    It all started with the fact that even during the First World War, the German gunsmith Hugo Schmeisser designed the MP / 18-I submachine gun, the production of which at the German arms factory Theodor Bergman began in 1918.

    Actually, it didn't start like that. Hugo Schmeisser is the 3rd generation of the famous family of German gunsmiths, and, as you know, nature always rests on its descendants. At the beginning of the 1916th century, Hugo was hired by Bergman's firm (his father worked there). In 1917 - 15, the owner of the company Theodor Bergman (one of the first inventors of automatic pistols, author of the successful machine gun Bergmann MG XNUMXnA, etc.) instructed Hugo prepare for production the MP-18 submachine gun he conceived. Hugo not only coped with the task, but also patented the MP-18 in his name. Naturally, after this, the cooperation between Bergman and the Schmeiser family ceased. Bergman sued Hugo for the MP-18 patent until his death in 1931, but Hugo was unrivaled in litigation. However, the MP-18 is referred to as the "Bergmann MP20"
    Despite the patent dispute, the Bergmann MP20 was modified and produced by both Hugo and Bergman. In the 20s, Hugo produced his modifications of the MP-18, and Bergman produced it under the brand name SIG Bergmann 1920.
    Hugo exploited the idea of ​​Bergman until the end of the 30s. During this time, he moved the MP-18 magazine from the left side down and then to the right. He was unable to create anything new. Hugo became world-famous as a gunsmith after he sold 50 MP-28s to the SS. PR, and only PR.
    From 1938 to 1944 (six years!!!) Hugo created his "masterpiece" - Stg-44. the Americans tested it at the Aberdeen test site. The review is the most derogatory, therefore, apart from Germany, the Stg-44 was not produced anywhere else. Considering how many lives of our soldiers were saved by the cross-armed Hugo, I personally am in favor of erecting a monument to him on Poklonnaya Hill. The monument must certainly be the work of Tsereteli, with arms growing from behind below the waist.
    1. +4
      April 2 2022 08: 07
      What's wrong with Stumgever? Issued in more than 500000 copies. It is still in use today. Quite a modern example. First successful intermediate cartridge.
      1. +3
        April 2 2022 08: 17
        It is shown very well in the 1978 movie The Savoy Rape.
        1. +2
          April 2 2022 08: 43
          There it was already remade at Mosfilm under the guise of M16, so from the outside it’s not quite a Sturmgever. wink

          1. +4
            April 2 2022 09: 37
            Swede shoots from hever !!! And not Shalo ... Take a closer look ...
        2. +5
          April 2 2022 09: 25
          Video about Suomi m/26 in addition

          1. +3
            April 2 2022 09: 42
            Thank you very much!
            1. +3
              April 2 2022 09: 59
              Quote: kalibr
              Thank you very much!

              Please.
              Better to see once...

              As it turned out, one of the 4 officers (shareholders of the Submachine Gun LLC company) understood copyright and business.
              After all, having sold their rights, they received a “penny” from each sold copy of the new modification software.
              How Stoner later received from M16 sales
              1. +2
                April 2 2022 11: 01
                Quote: Mister X
                "Submachine gun LLC" understood copyright and business.

                Well, there are very versatile people. I still receive royalties for some books. I forgot what...
          2. +2
            April 2 2022 09: 59
            Michael hi , thanks for the video, everything is clear and understandable, it’s only a pity that I can’t do it with the translation. request
            1. +2
              April 2 2022 11: 03
              Quote: Sea Cat
              does not work with translation.

              I can only say a huge thank you to my special school No. 6, where we were driven for two years by military transfer and taught in English how to disassemble Kalashnikovs and the Bren machine gun.
            2. +3
              April 2 2022 11: 47
              Quote: Sea Cat
              thanks for the video

              hi
              Please.
              I have already talked about the automatic translation function in YouTube.
              1. +3
                April 2 2022 11: 53
                Still, I finally figured it out. In principle, it is possible without translation, but it is somehow more comfortable with it. smile
                1. +4
                  April 2 2022 12: 48
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  Still finally figured it out

                  Great )
      2. +7
        April 2 2022 08: 36
        Hello Sergey! hi

        What's wrong with Stumgever?


        But there was nothing wrong with it, and in general Schmeisser gave impetus to the development of such a new type of small arms as an assault rifle (automatic). He was the first, and that says it all.
        No, well, of course, I understand that the "electrician", especially the "old" here, is the main specialist in small arms. laughing Therefore, I do not argue, the question is obvious.
        1. +4
          April 2 2022 08: 45
          Quote: Sea Cat
          and in general, Schmeisser gave impetus to the development of such a new type of small arms as an assault rifle (automatic).

          The impetus was given by the Wehrmacht Armament Department, which announced the competition and gave the order ... And it decided who would be "first" therefore, the STG has details and decisions that were simply imposed on it by order, for example USM ..
          1. +4
            April 2 2022 08: 57
            If the designer has no brains, then no Management will help him.
            1. +2
              April 2 2022 09: 04
              Quote: Sea Cat
              If the designer has no brains, then no Management will help him.

              Well, the STG is not a masterpiece - they used the stamped one, but no one wanted to make new ones. Even the Germans made a replacement, only they didn’t manage to establish production.
              Well, the most - where to direct the brains is decided by the customer-bosses.
              1. +4
                April 2 2022 09: 32
                stamped used

                From what system stamped? And at the same time, give an example of a weapon of a similar class of the same time.
                1. +1
                  April 2 2022 09: 46
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  From what system stamped?

                  Can you decipher? What does it have to do with some kind of system?
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  And at the same time, give an example of a weapon of a similar class of the same time.

                  What do you want to say with this? That the STG was the first mass adopted for service? I wonder who objected, disputed? Only then you tell how many of them were made after the war and who ... They preferred to develop a new one, but no one copied the masterpiece. .
                  1. +1
                    April 2 2022 09: 55
                    Can you decrypt?

                    Yes, you yourself decipher what you wrote.
                    preferred to develop new

                    So this is a completely reasonable decision, and everyone, or almost everyone, when designing their weapons, took into account the disadvantages of the Sturmgever design.
                    1. +1
                      April 2 2022 10: 07
                      Quote: Sea Cat
                      preferred to develop new

                      So this is a perfectly reasonable solution.

                      Masterpieces live for a long time .. and acquire copies and imitations .. And the decision to create weapons of a certain class is decided by customers, not designers .. Moreover, there were more than one prototypes already in the First World War .... And the decision to release a new cartridge is also not the designer was accepted..
                      1. 0
                        April 4 2022 10: 47
                        Masterpieces live for a long time .. and acquire copies and imitations ..

                        Actually, that's exactly what it is.
                        Moreover, in the case of the StG-44 specifically, the most symptomatic will be, in general, the fact that in West Germany itself, instead of trying to modernize the StG-44, they adopted a completely different design - CETME / G-3.
                      2. 0
                        April 4 2022 11: 00
                        Quote: Terran Ghost
                        Actually, that's exactly what it is.

                        Well, it’s about the fact that the StG is not a “masterpiece” ... yes, the first one adopted, sorry, massive, but not a masterpiece .. And I repeat once again - that it’s accepted and massive is not a merit or some kind of Schmeisser’s breakthrough is strong-willed the decision of the Spree. However, like ours, it seems that Ustinov decided this with AK ....
      3. 0
        April 2 2022 08: 48
        Quote: ssergey1978
        Released in more than 500000 copies

        Did you mess up with the quantity?
        1. 0
          April 2 2022 10: 04
          I don't seem to complain about sclerosis? You have different information.
          1. 0
            April 2 2022 10: 12
            Quote: ssergey1978
            I don't seem to complain about sclerosis?

            Exactly, otherwise if you believe the Internet, more than 446000 did not come across ....
            1. +2
              April 2 2022 10: 20
              And that these numbers are very different from mine? I said as a keepsake, and you climbed into Vika to clarify because you didn’t know that so many of them were produced. And they used it a lot where I heard that the Yugoslavs produced it, well, cartridges for sure. It was actively used in the Middle East, it is quite possible that it was released on the knee there.
              1. 0
                April 2 2022 10: 25
                Quote: ssergey1978
                I said as a keepsake, and you climbed into Vika to clarify because you didn’t know that so many of them were produced

                Did they tell you this in the same wiki, or is it your fantasy?
                Quote: ssergey1978
                I heard that the Yugoslavs produced it

                I’ll tell you from memory - they didn’t bring them, but they armed the paratroopers. And they still make cartridges ... In the Middle East, they just “do not use” ...
                "And that these numbers are very different from mine?" - yes, by 20 percent ..
                1. +2
                  April 2 2022 10: 31
                  How touchy you are. Well, let's say 10%. Secondly, the numbers were given as in the Russian-language wiki. Not the fact that the manufacturer knows exactly how much he produced.
                  1. -1
                    April 2 2022 10: 34
                    Quote: ssergey1978
                    Secondly, the numbers were given as in the Russian-language wiki.

                    And what, does the wiki always lie? Especially since it’s not from the wiki ... Well, if you’re completely tedious, then out of 10% even 500000 won’t work, let alone “more” ...
                    And as they say, it's not for you to talk about "touchy" ..
                    1. +3
                      April 2 2022 10: 41
                      Excuse me, are you boring? I said 500000 , you are 446000 where is the 20% difference?
                      1. -2
                        April 2 2022 10: 48
                        Well, if you're bored
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        Released in more than 500000 copies

                        And how much more? 10% of 446000 to calculate and then add it out?
                        And the STG had a problem with a very significant and unresolved ode - sticking ... and even a case rupture ... well, about the fore-end and the fear of dirt, it's just the Germans often so ...
                      2. 0
                        April 2 2022 11: 13
                        Well, let's go. There is a booklet-questionnaire for Wehrmacht soldiers using the MP-43 with recommendations and feedback. So the reviews of the soldiers were the most forest. Both in terms of fire accuracy up to 500 meters and in terms of reliability
                      3. -4
                        April 2 2022 11: 27
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        There is a booklet-questionnaire for Wehrmacht soldiers using the MP-43 with

                        Can I have a look? And how and in quantity the other mostly came across ..
                      4. 0
                        April 2 2022 11: 42
                        You can google to help. VO also had an article about MP 43, and also, according to the results of tests at the front, the troops demanded this rifle
                      5. 0
                        April 2 2022 12: 01
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        You can google to help.

                        Yes Yes...
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        wanted this rifle

                        And machine guns demanded ... This made it possible to increase the density of fire ... Only the first samples, especially wartime, always have a lot of shortcomings, and then, unlike many modern individuals, everyone understood and chose the lesser of two evils ... And once again - in adopting something, the main role is played by customers, not by the designer ... AK was adopted the same with a bunch of shortcomings and became so legendary only 10 years later, evolving to AKM.
                      6. +1
                        April 2 2022 12: 16
                        It's hard with you. It is clear that there are children's sores. But the mp43 was demanded not just to increase the density of fire, but because it was a new weapon that was superior to both the 1935 rifle and the MP 40. Why didn’t you like the AK47? What kind of sores were there besides SK milling? [quote][quote]
                        [Center]
                      7. 0
                        April 2 2022 12: 29
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        And why did the AK47 not please you?

                        Do not believe me - not me .... the military. They stirred up a new competition in which AKM was the winner in a very difficult fight and with a not so big margin came out the winner ...
                        In the case of STG (although this is almost always the case), whether or not a new class (type) of weapons will appear was decided not by Schmeisser, not by Walter, not by Volmer, but by Speer ...
                        Here Mauser, by the end of the war, managed to create something more acceptable, which was directly developed - the StG-45 developed into the G-3 ... Even the SVD found its development in the FN FAL, but the StG-44 somehow did not go ..
                      8. -1
                        April 2 2022 12: 37
                        Do you want to tell me about common truths? AK evolved into AKM primarily due to the development of SK stamping technology and this is the main thing.
                      9. -2
                        April 2 2022 12: 44
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        just because of the development of SK stamping technology and this is the main thing.

                        Come on, but accuracy and accuracy mean nothing to do with it at all ... I will surprise you - AKs were also stamped at the beginning ... however, what was there about Google?
                      10. -1
                        April 2 2022 12: 54
                        The accuracy of the ak47 suited everyone. There, any weapon shoots more accurately than a shooter, especially a conscript. Even in the USSR, ak47 was used until the 80s. Yes, there were the first releases of ak47 from stamping, but what came of it? Therefore, there was a milled box, expensive and with a lot of metal waste. Also, a large percentage of ak47 was a marriage. So the transition from AK47 to AKM is primarily technological.
                      11. -2
                        April 2 2022 12: 58
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        The accuracy of the ak47 suited everyone.

                        Well then, no more questions for you...
                      12. -1
                        April 2 2022 13: 03
                        Yes, whatever. Even more than that, at a distance of using weapons of 50-150 meters, a maximum of 300, there was no difference at all. Moreover, at a distance of 200 shooters will not see the difference between ak47 and ak74. So all the best. Read books, go to the shooting range. And don't write nonsense
                      13. -1
                        April 2 2022 13: 06
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        Read books, go to the shooting range.

                        A very sensible proposal - for example, read the history of competitions .. All sorts of those tasks, tests ....
                      14. -2
                        April 2 2022 13: 13
                        Thanks, I prefer the shooting range. Handles, handles.
                      15. -2
                        April 2 2022 13: 25
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        Thanks, I prefer the shooting range.

                        Are you a test engineer?
                        Of those who use pens, I prefer Malimon, and not a person who does not want to know the history of his country ..
                      16. -1
                        April 2 2022 13: 28
                        Did we talk about the history of the country? Where? Why do you think that I don't want to know the history of my country?
                      17. -2
                        April 2 2022 13: 35
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        Did we talk about the history of the country?

                        Well, yes, the history of the creation of weapons is about Mars.
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        do you think that I don't want to know the history of my country?

                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        Thanks, I prefer the shooting range.

                        And even about the fact that the AK was stamped until 1952, and about the competition of 1957-58, I would have been aware of the fact that the main competitor of the AKM was the Korobov Avtomat ...
                      18. The comment was deleted.
                      19. +1
                        April 2 2022 21: 17
                        Forest reviews is like? Were they recorded in the forest?
              2. +1
                April 2 2022 20: 58
                And they still use
                . Although, to be honest, the Middle East is still a dump in terms of weapons. By the way, I saw a slow motion of automatic fire from AK and STG. German weapons look more balanced and stable. Resistance to pollution in AK due to the large masses of moving parts with high inertia, this reduces accuracy. For an ordinary fighter is not critical. And the decision to adopt a simple and reliable weapon with the worst accuracy at the end of the forties was the right one (however, in order for it to become both reliable and technologically advanced, it was finished for thirty years). STG-44 became the first incarnation of the concept of mass technological weapons
                with low recoil and "shoot as far as I can see."
      4. 0
        April 2 2022 13: 53
        What's wrong with Stumgever? Issued in more than 500000 copies. It is still in use today. Quite a modern example. First successful intermediate cartridge.

        An intermediate cartridge was first proposed by Fedorov in 1912.
        The first machine gun for an intermediate cartridge was developed by the same Fedorov in 1916.
        Unlike Fedorov, Hugo had everything: any range of steels, machine tools, skilled technologists and workers, measuring tools, etc. And Hugo did not disappoint! He created such garbage called StG 44 that even the vaunted German industry could not cope with its mass production! I don’t know where you got the misinformation that more than 500000 StG 44s were allegedly produced. All sources indicate a total production of 446 copies. Of these, in the III Reich 000-420 StG 000. Is this a lot or a little? In September 440, a decision was made in the Reich on the total mobilization of the entire population, capable of holding weapons in their hands and creating, according to the Soviet model, the German people's militia - the Volkssturm.
        The high military command of the Wehrmacht planned to put under arms at least six million men aged 16 to 60 years. To equip the 6710 Volkssturm battalions being formed in the 1st and 2nd waves, 4 million rifles were required; 203 150 light machine guns; 25 heavy machine guns; 660 rifle grenade launchers; 181 mortars; 170 guns and 25 Panzershrek anti-tank grenade launchers.
        However, the German military industry could no longer produce such a colossal amount of weapons in a short time. Such a difficult situation led to the fact that by this time the absence of significant stocks of modern weapons forced the high military command of the Wehrmacht ground forces (OKN) to withdraw from their arsenals all the weapons that were there, starting from clearly museum samples of the period of the Franco-Prussian war of 1870-1871 until to captured rifles with 3-5 rounds of ammunition per barrel, as well as sporting and hunting weapons. Despite this, the shortage of small arms in the Wehrmacht was such that the Germans were forced to produce almost disposable ersatz weapons. We didn't even have that in 1941. Thanks to Hugo Schmeiser, but his wunderwaffle was extremely low-tech and did not help to eliminate the shortage of weapons for the Wehrmacht. For comparison with the frankly meager number of 420-000 StG 440s produced for the Wehrmacht in 000-44, 1943 million submachine guns were manufactured in the USSR in 1945-1944. Of course, the pistol cartridge is weaker than the intermediate one, but the PPSh is definitely better than a disposable fart made from scraps of water pipes. However, even such farts were sorely lacking for the Wehrmacht.
        In the post-war years, according to the results of studying the German "assault rifle" StG 44, American military experts considered it a "weapon far from satisfactory" - uncomfortable, overly massive and heavy, with low reliability due to the easily deformable receiver stamped from a thin steel sheet. I'm translating it into plain language. Masa StG 44 - 5,2 kg. For comparison, the Soviet SVT-40 chambered for a rifle cartridge had a mass of 3,8 kg without cartridges and a bayonet. By the way, a total of 1,6 million SVT-40s were manufactured, the rifle is still popular. PPSh weight - 3,6 kg. without cartridges; 5,3 kg. with equipped drum magazine; 4,15 kg. with equipped sector store. The mass of the AK produced in 1955 (the beginning of mass production, appeared in Vietnam under the nickname AK-47) is 3,8 kg empty, 4,3 kg with an equipped magazine. Feel the difference. And now the most tsimus. When crawling with the StG 44, it was common for the receiver to deform, turning the prodigy into a high-tech baton. In the USSR, such crap would simply not be allowed to go to the State Tests.
        About the design. The real highlight of the StG 44 is the ramrod that passes through the piston and gas chamber, which ensures that powder gases enter the receiver. Lost or bent a ramrod and you still have the same high-tech baton in your hands. No other system in the world has such a device! Glory to Hugo Schmeiser!
        Nevertheless, quite a lot of StG 44 was produced, so it was noted in many local conflicts. Therefore, around the world, guerrilla and irregular armed groups are still using various samples of Stg44. However, this fact does not give a reason to call this design modern. But StG 44 is very photogenic, so it was noted in many films. For example, "Malchish Kibalchish".
        1. +1
          April 2 2022 14: 01
          In fact, the MP43 was in service with a number of countries. What formations are you talking about? I won't lie, I didn't read your post too long, but I got the gist.
        2. 0
          April 2 2022 15: 36
          "the rifle is still popular" my mother's father was in the marines, scolded "SVT" capricious. He willingly changed the "light" to a three-ruler, and then the PPSh appeared.
          I remember being young and not understanding. Why, he scolds the pests that they created - a rifle?
        3. +4
          April 2 2022 17: 26
          Quote: Old electrician
          The real highlight of the StG 44 is the ramrod that passes through the piston and gas chamber, which ensures that powder gases enter the receiver.

          Haven't laughed so hard in a long time. The ramrod looks like it's going through your head.
          1. -1
            April 3 2022 04: 09
            bunta (Andrey)
            Quote: Old electrician
            The real highlight of the StG 44 is the ramrod that passes through the piston and gas chamber, which ensures that powder gases enter the receiver.


            Haven't laughed so hard in a long time. The ramrod looks like it's going through your head.

            As I understand it, you are one of those couch strategists who saw the StG 44 only in the movies. The ramrod in the StG 44 actually goes through the gas chamber and through the gas piston. It is the guide along which the gas engine moves. If it is removed, then a hefty hole appears in the gas chamber, due to which the gas engine will stop working. This is not the case in any other system. Only the brilliant Hugo Schmeiser could have thought of this before. The characteristically protruding ramrod is visible in all photos of the StG 44.

            Two of the same ramrods stick out of your head.
            1. +2
              April 3 2022 08: 54

              Short ramrod. Don't you find? crying
              1. 0
                April 3 2022 11: 44
                I'm wrong about the photo. But according to all the descriptions I found, the ramrod in the Stg-44 was inside the gas piston mechanism.
            2. 0
              April 3 2022 17: 31
              Quote: Old electrician
              If you remove it, then a hefty hole appears in the gas chamber

              Then then a special plug is wrapped in it, which blocks the outlet from the bore and woo-a-la - if you please, shoot rifle grenades ... the approach of the true "gloomy Teutonic genius" ..
              1. 0
                April 4 2022 13: 26
                Doesn't it bother you that there is an aiming device in the way of a grenade?
                1. 0
                  April 4 2022 13: 45
                  Quote: Old electrician
                  Doesn't it bother you that there is an aiming device in the way of a grenade?

                  Well, I missed the "details", I still had to fix a mortar on the barrel, as well as load it with a special throwing cartridge, and depending on the type of grenade, the cartridge should have its own ..
        4. 0
          April 6 2022 13: 53
          An intermediate cartridge was first proposed by Fedorov in 1912.
          The first machine gun for an intermediate cartridge was developed by the same Fedorov in 1916.

          Fedorov did not develop an intermediate cartridge. From the word "absolutely". He proposed reducing the caliber of the rifle cartridge from 7,62mm to 6,5mm to slightly reduce the recoil momentum while maintaining the ballistics and effective range of the rifle cartridge.
          Actually, the concept of advanced infantry weapons, as conceived by Fedorov, consisted of a self-loading rifle as the main infantry weapon, and an "automatic" (the term was actually invented by Fedorov, yes), which they saw as an automatic rifle chambered for a "full-size" rifle cartridge with a replaceable box magazine for 20-25 rounds.
    2. 0
      April 2 2022 15: 24
      Electrician, I recommend installing Tsereteli's "creations" in Washington, let them not sleep at night
    3. 0
      23 May 2022 14: 18
      Oh, this sect of "Schmeiser-haters" with their alternative history.
      Theodore Bergman is a major industrialist, of course, he liked to tinker with pieces of iron, but actually he didn’t come up with much on his own. But he loved to patent everything for himself, yes. By the way, what he just did not do - and pots, and stoves, and vending machines, and, later, cars. And all - with patents in his name. Directly a hybrid of Tesla, Browning and Ford rolled into one. In terms of weapons - almost all of Bergman's weapons were developed by Louis Schmeiser, who was in a rather difficult situation at the time of the start of work for Bergman - with 6 children in his arms and there was no time for "speech" for the rights to patents. Over time, by the way, he led the arms business of Bergman. In 1905, Louis handed over the management of the factory to his 21-year-old son, and left to work for Rheinmetall.
      That's right, the preamble.
      The MP-18 was originally patented under his own name by Hugo - since he was already in charge of Bergman's arms business and he had to put up with it, and not "finish cooperation" - a large military order was extremely profitable. And everything would be "ok", but Germany lost the war and, under the terms of peace, Bergman's weapons factories were closed, and he sold the license for the MP-18 to the Swiss, and Hugo was "bombed", because he planned to sell the license to the Belgians, and not to close the factories, and reprofiled for "pocket" pistols and police weapons.
      Yes, yes, the upstart designer and the super-rich tycoon for the court were in the same category - don't make people laugh. Bergman did not develop or produce weapons until his death, his son did this in 1932 - he "gave birth" to the modified MP-18. Following the MP-28, if anything.
      Hugo (with his younger brother) was engaged in survival. Together with the company Hänel.
      The MP-28 became famous in 1940, when it was copied by the British (Lanchester), and then finalized and made their main PP - Sten.
      Since the 35th, Hugo has been doing well - with a huge military order for various weapons. Well, when the requirements for mkb were rolled out in 1938. - then he realized that this was his chance. "Six years!!!!" for the creation of weapons of new weapons - not so much (in fact - about 4, in January of the 42nd the first samples were already presented, and by April - already an installation batch). Moreover, Walter turned out to be the only serious competitor, but he disrupted the delivery time of the pilot batch ...
      When the first captured mkb. 42 (H) fell into the hands of the Soviet military - a new cartridge was created very quickly (literally in six months), and already in the 43rd the requirements for the creation of an automatic carbine, a self-loading carbine and a light machine gun were formed. The SCS was created by the 45th, the RPD - already in the 44th appeared on tests in the troops as the "RD-44", but they could not create an analogue of the "German" proper from the "takeoff" - even the best sample, Sudaev's designs, inferior to the "prototype" in the accuracy of fire. And in fact, they gave birth to something of their own only in the 47th, and brought it to production in the 49th. The same "6 years!!!!" it took to create AK, though there was already a landmark on hand.
      Well, testing with the Americans is a separate issue. In 41, they did not see the potential of THEIR almost intermediate cartridge and a carbine for it - M1 Carbine. Here, initially do what the soldiers later "from below" demanded - automatic fire and a magazine for 30 rounds, not 15 and implemented in the M2 Carbine in 44, plus - make a normal shell bullet - then the Americans would be "machine gun developers". And so - they scornfully treated both their M2 and stg. 44, and to the PPSh - and after the war they decided to make an assault rifle with a rifle cartridge. Born M14. Moreover, they put pressure on the British, who already had a machine gun under their intermediate cartridge, to abandon it ... Therefore, their assessment of the new weapon is "very important."
      Well, further "brilliant thoughts" about "Fedorov's first intermediate cartridge" (yeah, a 6,5 ​​mm bullet in a 57 mm Mauser sleeve is awesome "intermediate", a little heavier than the 7,62x54 that was in service, much faster than it - but , "intermediate").
      And the "machine gun" under the "intermediate" cartridge (the Japanese were surprised that they had rifles under the intermediate cartridge, and not a normal rifle), and the "machine gun" eventually turned into a machine gun ...
      Ultimately, there were already intermediate cartridges at the very beginning of the 7,92th century, only the German 33x42 in the XNUMXnd became really serial.
      But then again - there would be no Hugo - Walter's version would go. Which, by the way, our foolishly sent to a concentration camp and killed, instead of being delivered to the USSR. Then such mistakes were not made and a large herd of gunsmiths was taken out. If Walter hadn't happened, Forgrimler would have happened. By the way, it happened later - together with other Mauser employees, he fled to France, where, on the basis of his stg. 45 (M) created the CEAM Modèle 1950, but which the French did not like, and then, in Spain, brought it to mind under the name CETME, which eventually became the main weapon of Spain, and later in Germany already under the name H&K G3. And not because it was the best in the class - no, the Belgians simply refused to sell the FN FAL to the Germans, and the Spaniards agreed.
      ps well, "ramrod in the gas chamber" is already an obvious banter, which, in all seriousness, some repeat.
      The curb weight of 5,13 kg, of course, is decent, but in fairness - the equipped AK weighed 4,8 kg before serious modification. Empty stg. 44 weighed 4,6 kg.
  2. +1
    April 2 2022 05: 24
    the MP/18-I submachine gun, whose production at the German arms factory Theodor Bergmann began in 1918. This weapon was first practical submachine gun.

    Information for note:
    The Villar-Perosa M1915 submachine gun was originally designed by designer Revelli in 1914 to arm airplanes, but the too weak 9 mm Glisenti pistol cartridge used in this sample made this submachine gun ineffective for use in air combat. In 1915 year the new system was turned into a kind of ultralight light machine gun, making it the world's first submachine gun.
    1. +4
      April 2 2022 06: 16
      Quote: Nafanya from the couch
      first

      But not practical. It was not used anywhere except Italy and had no development. Nobody bought ... As well as Peroza. There are many designs claiming the championship. There are few samples that gave rise to real types of weapons.
      1. +4
        April 2 2022 07: 59
        True, the design was unsuccessful, the cartridge was weak, but, nevertheless, the Italians fought the entire World War with it. As they say, this is better than nothing at all. wink

        1. +1
          April 2 2022 08: 15
          In my novel "Three from Ensk", the heroes in Civil War fight with similar weapons (home-made), but under the Nagan cartridge.
          1. +3
            April 2 2022 08: 31
            In the sense of Revelli converted to a Nagan cartridge? funny smile it turns out that you took away the "laurels of superiority" from Tokarev at the p / p with the Nagant cartridge. wink

            1. +1
              April 2 2022 08: 47
              Quote: Sea Cat
              You have taken away the "laurels of superiority" from Tokarev at a checkpoint with a Nagant cartridge.

              Only Tokarev, as a practice, had to suffer with the Naganov sleeve ..
              1. +2
                April 2 2022 08: 59
                Truth? And we didn’t even know ... And how is he, darling, by agreement?
                1. +3
                  April 2 2022 09: 06
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  And how is he her, darling, by agreement?

                  No..with violence..
                  1. +3
                    April 2 2022 09: 45
                    I went to call the cops and human rights activists. laughing
                    1. +1
                      April 2 2022 09: 48
                      Quote: Sea Cat
                      I went to call the cops and human rights activists.

                      Why don't they call the doctors?
                      1. 0
                        April 2 2022 09: 57
                        Not an expert, I can not advise anything. request
                      2. 0
                        April 2 2022 09: 59
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        Not an expert, I can not advise anything.

                        Well don't call
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        cops and human rights activists.

                        And then all of a sudden experts will come across there, they will call you. Although the cops, they are the police themselves, they can provide help ..
                      3. 0
                        April 2 2022 10: 01
                        Although the cops, they are the police themselves, they can help..

                        I rely on your rich experience, the advice of a knowledgeable specialist is always valuable. wink
                      4. 0
                        April 2 2022 10: 10
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        I rely on your rich experience, the advice of a knowledgeable specialist is always valuable.

                        But I didn’t flood, but I just found the information that Tokarev simply cut off the sleeve and re-compressed the cartridge - that is, he used physical influence - this is a decryption for you. Those who were interested understood it that way ..
                      5. +1
                        April 2 2022 10: 24
                        Come on, all this is trifles, never mind. smile I was in the Tula Museum of Weapons on his day off (for visits), they showed me everything, so I'm aware. drinks
                      6. +1
                        April 2 2022 10: 29
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        it's all little things

                        Well, not really .. the USSR had to urgently make a pistol cartridge ... with the Naganovsky, then only dream about automation ... And not only in PP ....
                      7. 0
                        April 2 2022 10: 33
                        it's all little things


                        Yes, I'm not talking about the cartridge. smile
                      8. +1
                        April 2 2022 10: 36
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        Yes, I'm not talking about the cartridge.

                        Yes, I understand ... But you don’t wink
                      9. +3
                        April 2 2022 10: 44
                        .But you are not


                        What was there to understand? Or were you going to lecture me about the 7,63x25mm Mauser cartridge, which magically became the 7,62x25mm TT cartridge? It's not worth it, I worked in the weapons department of the State Historical Museum and I can do it myself. Yeah, I just don't see the point.
                      10. 0
                        April 2 2022 10: 52
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        Or were you going to give me a lecture on the 7,63x25mm Mauser cartridge,

                        And why such conclusions?
                        Only there are lectures about the cartridge as such, but there is production where there is no magic ....
                      11. +1
                        April 2 2022 15: 49
                        And ours did not philosophize, but adjusted the Mauser cartridge to their caliber. Cheap and angry
                      12. 0
                        April 2 2022 16: 01
                        Quote: vladcub
                        Cheap and angry

                        The fact of the matter is that it’s not cheap. That’s why they were wise with the Nagan cartridge.
                      13. 0
                        April 2 2022 10: 40
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        I was shown everything, so I know.

                        Lucky good And there they talk about all the "torments"? It seems they tried not only to cut, but also to wet?
                      14. +2
                        April 2 2022 10: 47
                        With this directly to Tokarev, he will tell. I wish you success. smile
                      15. 0
                        April 2 2022 10: 49
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        With this directly to Tokarev

                        Or your general?
                      16. 0
                        April 2 2022 10: 51
                        What are you talking about, dear?
                      17. 0
                        April 2 2022 10: 54
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        What are you talking about, dear?

                        Here, sorry, confused with the author of a fictional genius ..
                      18. 0
                        April 2 2022 10: 56
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        With this directly to Tokarev

                        Does it mean that your upbringing does not allow you to simply say that they "did not tell" you?
                      19. 0
                        April 2 2022 11: 56
                        You once said something about flooding, well, just play this game yourself, but I'm just tired of you. request
                      20. +1
                        April 2 2022 12: 04
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        You are just bored.

                        And I don’t impose myself .. I generally don’t really like to communicate with daffodils ..
                      21. -1
                        April 2 2022 12: 44
                        And I don't impose.


                        Yah? laughing
                      22. +1
                        April 2 2022 13: 04
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        Yah? laughing

                        Well, yes ... I thought I was talking to a person ... sorry - I was mistaken ... It happens on the Internet ..
                      23. -1
                        April 2 2022 14: 05
                        Well, you smoothly and not "obsessively" switched to a banal insult.
                        But for some reason, I'm not surprised at all. request
                      24. +2
                        April 2 2022 14: 17
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        Well, you smoothly and not "obsessively" switched to a banal insult.

                        Well, yes, yes, others have insults, but we have subtle unobtrusive humor .. However, as always ...
                2. +1
                  April 2 2022 15: 42
                  "by consent" - their intimate secret
                  1. 0
                    April 2 2022 16: 04
                    Quote: vladcub
                    their intimate secret

                    No - everything was under the supervision of commissions and experts .. feel
                    1. 0
                      April 2 2022 16: 40
                      . and by mutual agreement
                      1. 0
                        April 2 2022 16: 50
                        Quote: vladcub
                        and by mutual agreement

                        And without consent, one sticking per magazine turned out (21 rounds). You won't be forced to be nice.
              2. +2
                April 2 2022 09: 40
                Quote: mat-vey
                I had to suffer with the Naganov sleeve ..

                Because he has a store downstairs!
                1. 0
                  April 2 2022 09: 47
                  Quote: kalibr
                  Because he has a store downstairs!

                  Because sticking due to the design of the cartridge ..
                  1. +1
                    April 2 2022 09: 49
                    When the store is on top, there is less chance of sticking. Not that they don't exist at all, but less so.
                    1. 0
                      April 2 2022 09: 56
                      Quote: kalibr
                      but less

                      How much?
                      1. +2
                        April 2 2022 11: 08
                        Matvey! I do not like it when people shit and cling to others over trifles. Tired of clinging to the "cat", did they take me? No need.
                      2. +1
                        April 2 2022 11: 20
                        Quote: kalibr
                        I don't like it when people screw up

                        So you would immediately say that you can’t ask questions and that’s all business.
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Tired of clinging to the "cat"

                        And on the contrary, I have a feeling that the Cat decided to be smart from scratch ..
                      3. +2
                        April 2 2022 12: 48
                        Quote: mat-vey
                        you can't ask questions

                        The question is different.
                      4. +1
                        April 2 2022 13: 00
                        Quote: kalibr
                        The question is different.

                        Well, you will announce the list of which you can ask, which are not ..
                      5. 0
                        April 2 2022 14: 04
                        Are you clinging again, Matthew? Who, what and what did not give you today, that you cling to every word.
                      6. 0
                        April 2 2022 14: 15
                        Quote: kalibr
                        that you cling to every word.

                        Why did you decide? You are so suspicious ..
                      7. +3
                        April 2 2022 15: 58
                        Vyacheslav, do you play dominoes? Yes

                      8. +1
                        April 2 2022 21: 36
                        The folk-yard game has already been forgotten crying
                        And at work, how many "Evt's goats" were "clogged" ...
                      9. +1
                        April 2 2022 15: 55
                        "announce the entire list" (c)
                      10. 0
                        April 2 2022 16: 02
                        Quote: vladcub
                        "announce the entire list" (c)

                        This is my question .. Even - "Yes, you wait" was not ..
            2. +2
              April 2 2022 09: 40
              I have a retired general who is fond of ... technical creativity, well, he made two PPs, similar to Revelli, under a Nagan cartridge with an upper magazine.
              1. +1
                April 2 2022 09: 51
                Quote: kalibr
                I have a retired general addicted there.

                Well then, yes ... where is Tokarev up to the general with his three classes ...
                1. +1
                  April 2 2022 11: 09
                  Quote: mat-vey
                  Well then, yes ... where is Tokarev up to the general with his three classes ...

                  Everything is possible in a novel, right?!
                  1. 0
                    April 2 2022 11: 22
                    Quote: kalibr
                    Everything is possible in a novel, right?!

                    But in life, no..
                    1. +1
                      April 2 2022 12: 47
                      Quote: mat-vey
                      But in life, no..

                      And what of it? Does it cancel novels?
                      1. 0
                        April 2 2022 13: 03
                        Quote: kalibr
                        And what of it? Does it cancel novels?

                        And what is it that begins to make a fairy tale come true?
                        Reality has shown that it turns out to be very unreliable and a lot of additional efforts ..
              2. 0
                April 2 2022 16: 14
                V. Oh, out of harm: in order to create the Revelli type, you need to know him well. Theoretically, this general could be in France or Italy and recognize him there.
                To do you need turning equipment.
                V. Oh, I don’t ask how successfully he worked and how much was produced. tell me to read it myself
            3. +1
              April 2 2022 13: 15
              The quality of wooden parts is worthy for custom hunting ... :)
              1. +1
                April 2 2022 14: 02
                So the museum exhibit, they tried to preserve the texture, for which I thank you. smile
              2. +1
                April 2 2022 14: 22
                Quote: stankow
                The quality of wooden parts is worthy for custom hunting ... :)

                This is computer graphics ... Well, besides, the experimental weapon was ... hand-made ...
  3. +4
    April 2 2022 05: 35
    Good morning everyone and have a nice day! smile

    Thanks to Vyacheslav for the excellent article and the expectation of another interesting material.

    Aimo Lahti.



    His fate was very strange at the end of the Second World War, I will just quote from an article in Warhead.
    “By 1944, Aimo Lahti was a well-established designer who had in his “luggage” almost the entire line of small arms - from a pistol to an anti-aircraft gun. In addition to creating the above samples, he also took part in the modernization of the Mosin rifle and the Maxim machine gun for the needs of the Finnish army, developed his own version of the Sampo L-41 heavy machine gun, the AL-43 "heavy submachine gun" chambered for its own 9 × 35 mm cartridge, as well as the 22 LR Finnish Lion Rifle sports rifle. their number will exceed fifty.
    However, all these achievements did not impress - or, on the contrary, they impress too much - the Allied Control Commission. At their request, Aimo Lahti was removed from work on military projects.

    Having received a general's pension, he opened a workshop in the small town of Jyväskylä and continued to invent, but already civil - until his death in 1970. "(c)

    Details on warhead.su:
    https://warhead.su/2019/12/25/pistolety-pulemyoty-i-alkogol-zhizn-finskogo-oruzheynika-aymo-lahti
  4. +2
    April 2 2022 11: 42
    Then they generally doubted that this type of weapon would be useful to the military.

    Not only they, ours also adhered to this opinion.
    from the book by D.N. Bolotin "Soviet small arms" (Voinizdat, 1990). "But the head of the GAU, G.I. Kulik, had a different opinion. He believed that the West is not a decree for us, the machine gun is a police weapon." In February 1939, PPDs were taken out of production and armament, withdrawn from the troops. "
    The aircraft designer Yakovlev in his book "The Purpose of Life" quotes an excerpt from his conversation with Stalin:
    "Do you know that none other than the leaders of our military department were against the introduction of machine guns in the army and stubbornly held on to the 1891 model rifle? You do not believe, you smile, but this is a fact, and I had to stubbornly fight the marshal before the war Kulik on this issue. "
    1. +1
      April 2 2022 11: 56
      Why then was the production of ABC-36 and SVT-38 launched?
      Like all the first PPs, PPDs were difficult to manufacture and costly per unit.
      And not at all because of "love for the" mosquito "...
    2. 0
      April 2 2022 12: 08
      Quote: riwas
      Not only they, ours also adhered to this opinion.

      Probably the same was being prepared for the "previous" war ... Trenches, machine guns and all that .. But the Finnish war showed that everything is changing ..
      1. 0
        April 3 2022 00: 25
        Quote: mat-vey
        Probably the same was being prepared for the "previous" war ... Trenches, machine guns and all that ..

        So the previous war was just assault groups and "short" battles in the trenches. Actually, PP is a child of WWI who was late for the war.
        1. 0
          April 3 2022 17: 27
          Quote: Alexey RA
          So the previous war was just assault groups and "short" battles in the trenches.

          It only appeared at the very end of the war ...
          1. 0
            April 3 2022 21: 06
            Quote: mat-vey
            It only appeared at the very end of the war ...

            But it has shown its effectiveness. So PP can also be considered preparation for the last war. smile
            1. 0
              April 4 2022 07: 08
              Quote: Alexey RA
              But it has shown its effectiveness. So the PP can also be considered preparation for the last war.

              It showed, but only mainly from the German side .... rarely does anyone thoroughly study the experience of the loser ..
    3. +1
      April 2 2022 12: 49
      As a result, Kulik was shot!
      1. +1
        April 2 2022 13: 19
        How was it not at all due to the (non) introduction of automatic weapons ...
        1. +2
          April 2 2022 14: 01
          Quote: stankow
          How was it not at all due to the (non) introduction of automatic weapons ...

          Yes! For being stupid...
    4. 0
      April 2 2022 16: 24
      "discontinued from production and armament" is not entirely true. PPD continued to be produced in small series for the NKVD troops and border guards
      1. +1
        April 2 2022 16: 34
        Quote: vladcub
        . PPD continued to be produced in small series for the NKVD troops and border guards

        There are results and recommendations of weapons commissions after testing submachine guns in the early 30s. It was then that erroneous conclusions were made.
        "According to the report of Comrade Smirnsky, a permanent member of the 5th section of the Artillery Committee, based on the results of his participation in the Shooting Congress in Erfurt and the shooting competition in Kassel, 21.10.1926/50/4,5," On the instructions of ArtCom, based on the proposal of the Engineering Department, I was Bergman submachine gun was tested in Durlyakh. The submachine gun is a small carbine about a arshin long, working with Parabellum or Mauser (pistol) cartridges. The cartridges are fed from a straight magazine inserted on the left side that holds 4 rounds. The weight of the pistol is about 100 kg The pistol bolt is very simple and consists of 20 parts: a spring, a striker, a recoil pad and a larva.The entire pistol consists of the following large parts: a barrel, a casing, a front washer, a trigger pin with a spring, a trigger and a latch for the magazine. shooting test at 10 meters when shooting in groups at a sheet of writing paper, out of a series of 50 shots, an average of 20 hits were obtained, i.e. XNUMX%, which must be considered a good result. As for continuous firing, this system, like all automatic systems in general, unsuitable for such fire, gave low accuracy (only one or two hits from a series of XNUMX shots).

        CONCLUSION: For arming units of the Red Army, such a machine gun-pistol is of little use, since, being designed for the Mauser or Parabellum pistol cartridge, it does not have a sufficient point-blank range. However, due to sufficient portability and lightness, as well as the convenience of reloading, this submachine gun can be used in the organs of the GPU of the Militia and various organs where meetings of one person with a group of bandits are frequent not at a great distance, but at close range. By the way, one copy of the submachine gun was purchased by Comrade Maichinsky, a representative of the Moscow Criminal Investigation Department, and will be taken to Moscow. The cost of a Bergman pistol is about 220 rubles.
        1. +1
          April 2 2022 16: 36
          But for the border guards they continued to release
          1. +1
            April 2 2022 16: 41
            Quote: vladcub
            But for the border guards they continued to release

            So they didn’t belong to the Red Army ... But the Finnish war helped to realize the need for PP in the troops ..
            1. 0
              April 3 2022 00: 51
              Quote: mat-vey
              So they didn’t belong to the Red Army ... But the Finnish war helped to realize the need for PP in the troops ..

              So the need was recognized earlier. But there was no opportunity.

              The army was not against massive cheap software for special forces, airborne forces, commanders, crews and crews. And after the appearance of PPD-34, together with the NKV, she continued to work on it.

              But the problem is that until the end of the 30s, the industry could not give such PP. The same Bolotin directly says that the mass introduction of stamping and welding in the arms industry took place in the late 30s. And before that - turning and milling work, which they could not give in any way with cheap PP. So it turned out that in the PP niche until the end of the 30s there was only PPD, which did not suit the army in any way.

              The Finnish war, in fact, simply spurred on the already ongoing work, successfully superimposed on the rearmament of industry. And the result is PPSh.
    5. +1
      April 3 2022 00: 40
      Quote: riwas
      from the book by D.N. Bolotin "Soviet small arms" (Voinizdat, 1990). "But the head of the GAU, G.I. Kulik, had a different opinion. He believed that the West is not a decree for us, the machine gun is a police weapon." In February 1939, PPDs were taken out of production and armament, withdrawn from the troops. "

      In fact, Kulik and the GAU were not against submachine guns in general, but specifically against PPD. Which was low-tech, costing the same as the DP-27, but at the same time it allowed for aimed fire of only a hundred meters (in this regard, the PPD was our tommy gun). It was proposed to make a rifle (more precisely, a combination of self-loading rifles and a machine gun in the squad) as an automatic weapon for infantry, and leave the niche for weapons of crews, crews of equipment and airborne forces to leave the PP.
      And the GAU was not alone - the People's Commissariat of Arms in 1939 also offered the production of PPD stop until the noted shortcomings are eliminated and the design is simplifiedand to continue the development of a new type of automatic weapon for a pistol cartridge for a possible replacement of the outdated PPD design.
      The aircraft designer Yakovlev in his book "The Purpose of Life" quotes an excerpt from his conversation with Stalin:
      "Do you know that none other than the leaders of our military department were against the introduction of machine guns in the army and stubbornly held on to the 1891 model rifle? You do not believe, you smile, but this is a fact, and I had to stubbornly fight the marshal before the war Kulik on this issue. "

      Well, yes, well, yes ... and the pre-war transition of the infantry to self-loading and automatic rifles, which began in the second half of the 30s, Yakovlev, for the red word, preferred to tactfully omit. As well as competitions for submachine guns to replace PPD.
  5. +1
    April 2 2022 11: 53
    It turned out that the Finnish turners are much weaker than the Swiss ones.
    And they had "wrong system" lathes and foezers!
    They did not master 10 units and lost 12.
    Making a submachine gun is incomparable to hunting in the winter forest!
  6. +4
    April 2 2022 17: 32
    It looks like this MP-18/28 bullshit will never end. As well as about the stormtrooper. No matter how much you write about Schmeisser-Bergmann-Vollmer-Kittel, Shpakovsky will definitely come and distort everything. And then the Viti-electricians will appear and begin to drive a blizzard from the first answers on the Google search "Schmeisser mp-18 Sturmgever".
    1. -1
      April 3 2022 04: 15
      And then the Viti-electricians will appear and begin to drive a blizzard from the first answers on the Google search "Schmeisser mp-18 Sturmgever"

      And then there are youths puffed up with arrogance, couch strategists unable to read and comprehend a technical text.
      1. +1
        April 3 2022 09: 00
        This "youngster", dear, has four children and four grandchildren. In addition, specialized education and a bunch of publications on shooting topics, and not only based on materials from the network. Like some. crying laughing wassat