How the Bolsheviks created Ukraine

V. I. Lenin and I. V. Stalin - Soviet leaders who created Ukraine within the current borders

In "independent" Ukraine, it is customary to curse the Soviet past. However, thanks to the Bolsheviks, such a large "Ukraine" was created. If we refuse Soviet gifts, then only five regions will remain from Ukraine - Kyiv, Podolsk, Volyn, Poltava and Chernihiv.

It was this “Ukraine” that the Central Rada claimed after the 1917 Revolution. In fact, these are the former possessions of Bohdan Khmelnitsky, who rebelled against the Polish throne.

What is real decommunization for Ukraine

Therefore, the Supreme Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Federation Vladimir Putin is absolutely right, who said about readiness to arrange a real decommunization for Ukraine.

Putin, in an address to Russians and compatriots in Ukraine, stated that

“Lenin squeezed the Donbass into Ukraine, and grateful descendants demolished monuments to him. Do you want decommunization? We are also quite satisfied with this, but we do not need to stop halfway. We are ready to show you what real decommunization means for Ukraine.”

Kiev needs to be reminded that in its present form Ukraine was completely created by the Bolsheviks. Ukrainian nationalists and democrats have been cursing Lenin and Stalin for more than 30 years, but it was they who created the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic (Ukrainian SSR). The Russian regions were transferred to the Ukrainian SSR entirely with the Russian population. If we take historical “Ukraine” means five (!) regions.

Only thanks to the Bolsheviks, Ukraine became the largest state in Europe (if you do not take the Russian Federation). If the Ukrainian nationalists won the Civil War, which began in 1917, then “Ukraine” would have been left without Galicia and Volhynia (they were captured by the Poles), without Donbass, Crimea and the Black Sea provinces. And the Red Army and the Bolsheviks, having defeated both the White Guards and the Petliurists (nationalists) in Ukraine, did nothing but increase the possessions of Ukraine.

"Ukraine" in the time of Bogdan Khmelnitsky

The failure of the "Great Russian chauvinist" Stalin

In 1922, the Bolsheviks were deciding what the Soviet statehood would be like. Lenin at that time was seriously ill, so the issue was resolved without him. Comrade Joseph Stalin, Comrade Commissar for Nationalities, played the main role in this matter. In his policy, Stalin already in this period was a staunch statesman, a supporter of a strong centralized state. As a Russian of Georgian origin, he perfectly understood what would happen if a lot of freedom and rights were given to the national outskirts, the Ukrainians. The Civil War had just ended, where all sorts of nationalist separatists fielded armies much larger in number than the Whites. When even the Russian Cossacks, like the Kuban and Donets, acted as separatists.

Therefore, Stalin proposed the Soviet federation as a basic model, where the rest will enter on the rights of autonomies. Stalin had many supporters. However, the Georgian party opposed it. It is worth remembering that the Georgian Social Democrats were active participants in the February Revolution, the collapse of the Russian Empire. Now they have “revolted” again, wanting to live in a full-fledged republic, with the right to secede from the Union. The Georgian Central Executive Committee accused Stalin of "Great Russian chauvinism" and resigned in protest. The Georgians were also supported by the Ukrainians. So, the People's Commissar of Internal Affairs, the People's Commissar of Justice and the Prosecutor General of the Ukrainian SSR Nikolai Skrypnik and Lenin's personal friend dashed off a complaint against Stalin to the leader of the peoples. He gave Lenin, through Krupskaya, a personal letter about Stalin's "great-power" plans.

Lenin was afraid that he was being seized control, and attacked Stalin with criticism. Stalin's reasonable plan was crossed out. The model was based on a confederation, with the right to withdraw the republics from the Union. This clause was included in the Soviet constitution of 1924. True, Stalin, when he was able to defeat the opposition, de facto established his own model of the Soviet state. As a zealous owner, he only increased the territory of the state, and did not squander it.

Gifts from the Soviet government

Ukraine entered the USSR with a huge gift - the lands of the abolished Donetsk-Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic (DKSR). It included the territories of the Kharkov and Yekaterinoslav provinces (in full), part of the Krivoy Rog region of the Kherson province, part of the counties of the Taurida province (up to the Crimean Isthmus) and the adjacent industrial (coal) regions of the Don Cossacks, the city of Shakhty and along the Rostov-Likhaya railway line. In fact, the entire Left Bank. Now these are the current Donetsk, Lugansk, Dnepropetrovsk and Zaporozhye regions, as well as partially Kharkov, Sumy, Kherson, Nikolaev and Russian Rostov regions. The capital of the DRSR was Kharkov, then Luhansk.

Naturally, they did not ask the consent of either the inhabitants of these Russian regions, or the party leadership of the republic, whether they want to become part of the “Ukraine”. The formal reason for the inclusion of the Russian Left Bank was the proletarian factor. They say that the Kiev region is entirely peasants, it is necessary to strengthen it with the working class, accelerate modernization and industrialization. Therefore, the capital of the Ukrainian SSR until 1934 was Kharkov.

Obviously, there is another major factor. The opponents of the Russian communists, the Bolshevik-Stalinists, were the Trotskyists, the internationalist revolutionaries, who placed the task of "world revolution" above the national interests of Soviet Russia. The internationalists tried with all their might to defeat the Russian "great-power chauvinists", to suppress Russian self-consciousness, changing it to an international, cosmopolitan one. Therefore, more than a third of the Russian people were turned into "Ukrainians" by directive, and purely Russian regions were transferred to the Ukrainian SSR, allowing them to be forcibly Ukrainized.

Stalin annexed the current western part of Ukraine to the Ukrainian SSR. Historically, these were purely Russian lands, torn away by the Poles and Hungarians. They were returned to Russia during the Partition of the Commonwealth. The western "Ukraine" included the territories of eight regions - Lviv, Ternopil and Ivano-Frankivsk, Volyn, Rivne, Chernivtsi, Khmelnitsky and Transcarpathian. After the collapse of the Russian Empire, these areas were captured by Poland. In 1939, during the Polish campaign of the Red Army, Western Russia was returned to Russia. It is worth noting that after World War II, a large-scale resettlement of Poles from Galicia to Poland was completed. And the Poles and Jews before that prevailed in the cities, in particular, in Lvov.

Also in 1940, Moscow took Northern Bukovina and Bessarabia from Romania. Bukovina and part of Bessarabia were merged into the Chernivtsi region of the Ukrainian SSR. The Izmail and Akkerman counties of Bessarabia were annexed to the Ukrainian SSR, forming the Akkerman and then the Izmail region. The Izmail region as part of the Ukrainian SSR existed until February 15, 1954, when it was merged with the Odessa region.

In 1945, Moscow returned Transcarpathian Rus (Rusyn-Russians lived there), which was captured by the Hungarians in the Middle Ages, and successively became part of Hungary, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Czechoslovakia and again Hungary. Budapest during the Second World War took the side of Nazi Germany. In 1944, the Red Army liberated Transcarpathia. In 1945, an agreement was signed on the entry of the former Transcarpathian Rus into the Ukrainian SSR. The Transcarpathian region became part of Soviet Ukraine.

In 1954, with the personal assistance of Nikita Khrushchev, Crimea was transferred from the RSFSR to the Ukrainian SSR.

As a result, Moscow handed over to the Ukrainian SSR vast areas both in the east and in the west. In essence, an artificial state formation was created, which included several historical Russian regions at once. In theory, the current Ukrainian politicians and nationalists should erect monuments not to Bandera and Shukhevych, but to Lenin, Stalin and Khrushchev. After all, it was the Soviet leaders who formed such a large “Ukraine”.

Ukrainian SSR in 1947

De-Russification of Russians in Ukraine

Until 1917, the population of Little Russia-Ukraine, Galicia, not to mention Novorossia and Donbass, almost completely identified themselves as Russians. However, the revolutionary authorities, starting with the Rada, the Hetmanate, the Directory, and ending with the Bolsheviks, diligently pursued a policy of Ukrainization. They crushed any resistance, introduced the language everywhere, banning the Russian language. They destroyed the higher urban Russian culture, pushed the rural-Ukrainian (parochial) culture. They fed, artificially supported the Ukrainian intelligentsia, the future stronghold of separatism and nationalism. In all waves of Ukrainization (revolutionary, 20s, Nazi occupation, Khrushchevism), the main blow was dealt to the Russian language.

The Soviet authorities abandoned the historical concept of the triune Russian people - Great Russians, Little Russians and Belarusians. "Russians, according to the difference in their dialects, are divided into Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians.”, - said, for example, in the “Textbook of the Geography of the Russian Empire”, published in St. Petersburg in 1873. They began to introduce a false concept of "three fraternal peoples." Although it is known that in Ancient Russia there were neither "Eastern Slavs", from whom the Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians allegedly "spun off", nor "Ukrainians". In any historical documents, sources, annals, it is said about "dews", "Rusich", "Rus", "Rus". The Russians did not go anywhere at a later time, during the Polish occupation. There was no total genocide, as well as large-scale migration of other peoples. Only groups of Jews and Poles appeared, mainly in the cities. Residents "Ukrainians" in the time of Bohdan Khmelnitsky considered themselves Russians. No "Ukrainians".

Under Catherine the Great, when almost all the lands of pre-Mongol Rus were united, all-Russian unity was completely restored. Polonisms from the South Russian dialect-adverb were supplanted by the more developed literary Russian language. All-Russian culture prevailed in the cities. So it was before the Revolution of 1917, when the project "Ukraine" was used by our external and internal enemies against Russia and the Russian people in order to dismember and destroy the Russian world-civilization.

Thus, if we abandon the Soviet legacy and finally “decommunize” the country, then the current Ukraine will have to be reduced to only five pre-revolutionary provinces - Kiev, Podolsk, Volyn, Poltava and Chernihiv. The founders of the "Ukraine" - Grushevsky and Petliura, did not even lay claim to Novorossia, whose lands the Russians recaptured from the Crimean Tatars and Turks. Indeed, the Russians who lived in Novorossiya during the Civil War fought for the Whites, the Reds, or Old Man Makhno, and fiercely hated the Petliurists (the forerunners of Bandera and modern neo-Bandera). The Central Rada did not lay claim to Galicia either. Lviv and Transcarpathia remained under the rule of Hungary and Poland.

All such historical processes are controlled. In order to eliminate the Ukraine-AntiRussia project, it is necessary to carry out lengthy, methodical work at different levels (especially informational), returning the Russianness of Novorossia, the Left Bank, the Kiev region, Galician and Carpathian Rus. All these are historically Russian lands inhabited by Russians, which for a century and especially 30 years of the new Ukraine have been confused, fooled, deceived and Ukrainized. The Russian-Ukrainians were turned into a "ram", created with the aim of the final destruction of Russian civilization and the Russian superethnos.

Comments

[YOUR]

Why such deathly silence about Yeltsin?
Can't be touched?

[svp67]

Quote: YOUR

Why such deathly silence about Yeltsin? Can't be touched?

Yes, just few people know that thanks to this "figure" and "democrat" Sevastopol passed under the jurisdiction of Ukraine. So, not only Lenin, Stalin and Khrushchev had a hand in the creation of Ukraine

[Far B]

thanks to this "figure" and "democrat" Sevastopol passed under the jurisdiction of Ukraine

So, thanks to this figure, such a thing as "jurisdiction of Ukraine" (sovereign, in any case) appeared in general. Realized, their mother, for three ...

[Civil]

Under the communists, the Ukrainian SSR was part of one country, there is nothing to shift from a sick head to a dead one ...

[Ivan90]

in the union of countries

[YOUR]

Here I am about the same. But... silence.

[Revolver]

Quote: YOUR

Why such deathly silence about Yeltsin?
Can't be touched?

What's the point? Anyway, it is already there, from where it is not possible to extract it. And to judge a rotten corpse is at least unhygienic, and useless.

[YOUR]

However, according to Lenin and Stalin, they trampled well, and this cannot even be touched by a thought. Svetoch.

[Serg65]

Quote: YOUR

However, according to Lenin and Stalin, they trampled well, and this cannot even be touched by a thought. Svetoch.

Yeltsin, of course, is still scum, but in the matter of Ukrainization, his share is scanty! Russia is another matter, but for all Russian troubles, he will not have mercy in the next world!
By the way, about the obsessive zeal of Lazar Moiseevich in creating a broad Ukrainian and the Ukrainian language ... the same silence ...

[YOUR]

In the case of the collapse of the USSR, his activity is the first.

[Serg65]

Quote: YOUR

In the collapse of the USSR

In the case of the collapse of the USSR, the first violins in the Politburo were, and not the Sverdlovsk regional committee and not the Stavropol regional committee!

[YOUR]

What are you? I'll know. It turns out that Yeltsin and Gorbachev have nothing to do with it.

[Serg65]

Quote: YOUR

It turns out that Yeltsin and Gorbachev have nothing to do with it.

Yeltsin and Gorbachev are pawns in someone else's game! Who pulled them out of the mud? Take an interest in the fate of the followers of this "Who" KGB generals Kryuchkov and Bobkov!

[Vend]

Quote: YOUR

Why such deathly silence about Yeltsin?
Can't be touched?

So the article is about how Ukraine appeared, and not about how it was isolated from the USSR.

[vlad106]

Quote: Wend

an article about how Ukraine appeared, and not about how it was isolated from the USSR.

There is no Ukraine and should not be! These are Russian lands

[Vend]

Quote: vlad106

Quote: Wend

an article about how Ukraine appeared, and not about how it was isolated from the USSR.

There is no Ukraine and should not be! These are Russian lands

I am aware that this is an artificial formation that appeared after the 1917 revolution.

[Alexfly]

And who will decide to throw out of history a person for whom the guarantor himself is taking care of ...? Although a place in the cemetery should have been denied a long time ago for the Belovezhsky verdict ...

[ivan2022]

"Lenin was afraid of Stalin" - The author, like most PR people,
leaves due to the universal "argument"; they know all the secret thoughts of all politicians of all times. This technique is commonly referred to as labeling.
Very conveniently, any event in the history of mankind can be explained; “It was because these people wanted it so much, and this was because this one got scared, and this was because these people didn’t like them.”
But why exactly did Lenin have to "lay a mine",
the explosion of which he counted in 100 years remains a great mystery. Uh-huh ... uh-huh ... he wanted so ..... Probably, there was nothing more to do ...... And now include Ukraine in the Russian Federation
as a "province" is not weak? ..Write paper and it's in the bag. Mr. Samsonov knows how it was necessary to unite the Union better than some kind of Lenins.

The situation then was much worse than it is now.
In 1922, behind him was the independent UNR proclaimed without any Bolsheviks in 1917, the Treaty of Brest with German occupation to the borders of the Kursk and Voronezh regions, the Civil War and a bunch of acting "independents", "rebels"

[Serg65]

Quote: ivan2022

Civil war and a bunch of acting "independent", "rebels"

Eee? Siberia was also teeming with all sorts of "republics", but they were not united into one taken Siberian Soviet Socialist Republic!

[victor50]

Quote: ivan2022

Mr. Samsonov knows how to

His articles very often look like information from RenTV. And pathos is the same. Curious only comments to them.

[ivan2022]

Quote: YOUR

Why such deathly silence about Yeltsin?
Can't be touched?

So it is necessary, you understand? There is such a word - NECESSARY. For example, the Old Testament hero Samson fought the damned Philistines because Israel NEEDED to do so.

[Lech from Android.]

Ukraine has received too many gifts from Russia... or the RSFSR as you wish.
This had the most detrimental effect on the thinking of the Ukrainian Nazis ... they imagined themselves to be the arbiters of the fate of millions of Russian-speaking citizens, deciding for them to live or die for them during forced Ukrainization.
The only solution to this problem is the old Roman principle... Divide and Conquer.
Ukraine should be a federation of republics... this will help to avoid the Fuhrerization of society by the Nazis.

[ivan2022]

Quote: Lech from Android.

they imagined themselves to be the arbiters of the fate of millions of Russian-speaking citizens, deciding for them to live or die

Hey ! Do you also know all the innermost desires of "all of them"? A good day began with the fact that I met two prophets at once, Samsonov and Lyokha from Android. Until now, I thought that Ukraine worked in the USSR first of all. The share of the population is 17%, and the share of GDP is about 30 ..... Turning workers into warring against Russia is not an easy task, but they did it!

[Lech from Android.]

Greetings Ivan!
The Nazis of Ukraine can only work as guards or executioners, they do not want to do anything else.
As for the rest of the fighting Ukrainians... they have become cannon fodder, I am convinced that after a military defeat, many of them will try to forget that they fought against our people and return to normal civilian life.
A normal person does not need a war ... it is needed by the stubborn Nazis who are warmed up by the Anglo-Saxons.
Russia or the RSFSR has invested too much in this republic to just give it to the Anglo-Saxons ... these bloodsuckers have other views on this territory.

[Serg65]

Quote: ivan2022

Until now, I believed that Ukraine in the USSR primarily worked

Where, then, did such comrades as Chernovol, Tyagnibok, Parubiy, Drach, Goryn come from in Soviet Ukraine? How could it happen that these communists and Komsomol members became Nazis? Yes, and there are many questions for the second secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, comrade Kravchuk!

[Detnix]

Ukraine has always been subsidized by 6%! Donors have always been the RSFSR and the BSSR, at times the Kazakh SSR.

[Sergej1972]

Considering. that a significant part of the economy was allied subordination, plus an element of secrecy in the sectors of the military-industrial complex, it is difficult to draw an objective picture here. Undoubtedly. that the share of the RSFSR in industry, transport, construction and science was higher than its share in the population of the Union. As for agriculture, here the share of the RSFSR roughly corresponded to its share in the population of the USSR.

[Sergej1972]

Where does the data about 30% come from? When the USSR collapsed, the Treaty of Succession was adopted in relation to the external state debt and assets of the USSR. The shares were determined based on the share of a particular republic in the economy of the USSR.
I quote:
Article 4. The parties agreed that the shares of the subjects of the former USSR in the total amount of Debt and in Assets, determined on the basis of a single aggregated indicator, are:
(in percents)
Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic - 61,34
Ukraine 16,37
Republic of Belarus 4,13
Republic of Uzbekistan 3,27
Kazakh Soviet Socialist Republic 3,86
Republic of Georgia 1,62
Republic of Azerbaijan 1,64
Republic of Lithuania 1,41
Republic of Moldova 1,29
Republic of Latvia 1,14
Republic of Kyrgyzstan 0,95
Republic of Tajikistan 0,82
Republic of Armenia 0,86
Turkmenistan 0,70
Republic of Estonia 0,62
Source: https://docs.cntd.ru/document/901777444.
Note that the proportion of republics did not directly depend on population. At the time of the collapse, approximately half of the population of the Union lived in the RSFSR, but the proportion was determined to be more than 61%. The share of 16 million Belarus was higher than the shares of 22 million Kazakhstan and XNUMX million Uzbekistan. By the way, the ratio of the population of Ukraine and Belarus was at that time about five to one, and the share in the assets of the USSR, however, was four to one. It turns out that the RSFSR and Belarus had larger shares compared to their shares in the country's population, while most of the other republics, on the contrary, had smaller shares.
As for Ukraine, its share was smaller compared to the share in the country's population, although not by much. If we take three economic regions of the USSR, it should be noted that the share of the Donetsk-Pridneprovsky region in the economy of the USSR was higher than its share in the population, the share of the Southern economic region approximately corresponded, and the share of the South-Western economic region was lower than the share in the population of the union state.
An interesting article: https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/rol-i-mesto-ukrainy-v-sssr-zavyshennoe-sotsialno-ekonomicheskoe-i-pereotsenennoe-politicheskoe-vliyanie-chast-1
https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/rol-i-mesto-ukrainy-v-sssr-zavyshennoe-sotsialno-ekonomicheskoe-i-pereotsenennoe-politicheskoe-vliyanie-ch-2
The Ukrainian USSR was a highly developed republic as a whole, but it is not worth artificially overestimating its share in the economy of the USSR. Although in a number of industries it was very high. But there was no 30% of the total economy.

[Foul skeptic]

determined on the basis of a single aggregated indicator are:

It remains to deal with the aggregate indicator)))

[Sergej1972]

This question is not for me.) But, in general, and in general, economic geographers (and our school of economic geography was quite strong) already in the Soviet period published a lot of articles and monographs in which the question of the share of each republic, each economic region in the sectoral structure of the economy of the USSR was worked out in detail. At that time, by the way, they did not particularly operate with the GDP indicator, they talked more about the GNP, the gross national product. In general, they paid more attention to quantitative indicators for each industry. How much each republic produced both in terms of cost and in pieces, meters, tons, etc.) Plus, what is labor productivity, production costs, etc.

[Foul skeptic]

This question is not for me.)

I can help you))

[Sergej1972]

Thanks. By the way, in my opinion, this technique is still used by economic geographers and regional studies.

[Foul skeptic]

Well, why not use factor analysis, there is no crime in it. If the application conditions check is passed. Which in relation to the above calculation is an open question. Personally for me.

[Dart2027]

Quote: ivan2022

You also know all the innermost desires of "all of them"

That is, the Russians massively dreamed of becoming non-Russians?

[Far B]

Let's hit the brains of the layman with slogans!

How the Bolsheviks created Ukraine

Ukraine emerged to how the Bolsheviks came to power.

Gifts from the Soviet government

In a single state, which was the USSR, there can be no talk of any gifts. There was a revision of the boundaries of subjects. Well, that is, as everywhere and always, the Bolsheviks did not invent anything new. Before the partition of the USSR, no one even thought about this, because the state was one (by and large, even in the first decade after the collapse, it remained largely one - from the same Ukraine, people went to Vladik in batches to work on floating bases. No one believed that they were separated seriously and for a long time!)
In short, a bold minus to the article, and a bold minus to the author - typical groaning and posturing, slightly embellished with half-facts and half-truths for credibility.

[Woodman]

Quote: Dalny V

Before the division of the USSR, no one even thought about it, because the state was one (by and large

If the state structure includes the possibility of regions separating from the state, then not thinking about the consequences, to put it mildly, is short-sighted.

[Far B]

If the state structure provides for the possibility of regions separating from the state

Oh, another popular slogan about the shortsightedness of the Bolsheviks. True, Olgych loved to broadcast it more and more.
Only now this slogan has a little less than nothing to do with life: when the state collapses, as a rule, they put on what is laid down in the Constitution. Take the same USSR - almost all the norms that were possible were violated. Well, to the heap: the Russian Empire also did not provide for the possibility of secession (and, in general, there was no Constitution itself) - the result is known. And one of the fundamental principles of the UN is the right of peoples to self-determination, so...
And, by the way, in the USSR they were fully thinking about the consequences of the norm prescribed in the Constitution - the legislative mechanism for exit was essentially unfeasible. Therefore, no one was going to observe the legality of the collapse of the country.

[Woodman]

Quote: Dalny V

Only now this slogan has a little less than nothing to do with life: when the state collapses, as a rule, they put on what is laid down in the Constitution. Take the same USSR - almost all the norms that were possible were violated.

And at the same time, the republics parted exactly in the borders that existed at the time of the collapse.

Quote: Dalny V

Well, to the heap: the Russian Empire also did not provide for the possibility of secession (and, in general, there was no Constitution itself) - the result is known.

The civil war is somewhat different than the peaceful dissolution of the country in Belovezhskaya Pushcha, don't you think? And because the collapse of the Empire began with a civil war, it was the civil war that ultimately helped create a new state on the ruins of the Empire with practically the same borders. With a peaceful option, the creation of the Union practically within the borders of the Empire would be an unlikely event. But a peaceful option was impossible, including due to the lack of mechanisms for such an option.

Quote: Dalny V

And, by the way, in the USSR they were fully thinking about the consequences of the norm prescribed in the Constitution - the legislative mechanism for exit was essentially unfeasible.

Yes, it was impossible to do legally. But the opportunity was laid at the legislative level, and as it turned out, with certain manipulations and the weakness of the central government, there were people (non-humans) who, for the sake of their ambitions, managed to pull it off. So it was easier either not to give the temptation at all, or initially to carry out all changes in the republican borders exclusively in favor of the metropolis.

Quote: Dalny V

And one of the fundamental principles of the UN is the right of peoples to self-determination, so...

So the UN appeared two decades later, after the adoption of the Constitution of the USSR with the right to withdraw the republics from the Union.
PS

Quote: Dalny V

True, Olgych loved to broadcast it more and more.

Despite the fact that Olgovich in his comments follows a strictly defined line regarding the Union, it is foolish to deny that he is a very competent commentator.

[Far B]

The civil war is somewhat different than the peaceful dissolution of the country in Belovezhskaya Pushcha, don't you think? And because the collapse of the Empire began with a civil war

I don’t find it, because the Civil War began already strongly after the Empire ceased to exist.

And at the same time, the republics parted exactly in the borders that existed at the time of the collapse

Moldova, Georgia and Azerbaijan categorically disagree on the borders, here. By the way, they are protesting against the definition of "peaceful dissolution of the country in Belovezhskaya Pushcha".

So it was easier either not to give a temptation at all, or initially to carry out all changes in the republican borders exclusively in favor of the metropolis

The power of afterknowledge is a very strong force, yes.

it is foolish to deny that he is a very competent commentator

He is a manipulator, a juggler of facts. And I wouldn't say that I'm particularly literate.

[Woodman]

Quote: Dalny V

The civil war began already strongly after the Empire ceased to exist.

I don't even know what to say. So impressed by your statement. Is there anything to confirm?

Quote: Dalny V

Moldova, Georgia and Azerbaijan categorically disagree on the account of borders,

You are trying to change concepts. Legally and in fact, they left the Union peacefully and within administrative boundaries. Up to a certain point, local conflicts on ethnic grounds had no effect on their legally recognized borders.

Quote: Dalny V

The power of afterknowledge is a very strong power, yes

Undoubtedly. But it’s much easier not to give matches to a child than to grieve about a burned-out house later.

Quote: Dalny V

He is a manipulator, a juggler of facts. And I wouldn't say that I'm particularly literate.

Facts are manipulated by everyone. But I have never seen him get caught in a lie and, unlike many other commentators, I do not see him trying to earn a rating on hype. And this inspires respect, although I very often disagree with his view of the history of the Union.

[Foul skeptic]

But I've never seen him get caught in a lie

By the way, there is a quite viable opinion of experts that a person who says something that does not correspond to reality cannot be considered a liar if he considers what he says ... to correspond to reality.

[Woodman]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

By the way, there is quite a viable opinion

Just one of...

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

saying something untrue

I didn't see him being blamed for it. You have every chance to become the first. Or limit yourself to vague hints?)

[Foul skeptic]

I didn't see him being blamed for it. You have every chance to become the first. Or limit yourself to vague hints?)

You can always take and look, the site archive and search tools allow you to do this. I understand that this is more labor-intensive than simply deciding not to see. How many examples will satisfy you? ))

[Woodman]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

You can always take and see the archive

Until now, I've had enough of what I see online, so to speak. I turn to the archives in case of disagreement with the administration of the resource)

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

How many examples will satisfy you?

A couple of confident examples are enough so that I no longer mention Olgovich's "sinlessness") But this does not mean I will cease to consider him an interesting commentator) I hope you can give me a couple of examples?

[Foul skeptic]

Then let's define the terminology.
"Strong example" is what example? So that I don't waste time on "unsure")))

[Woodman]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

"Strong example" is what example?

Under which there is a foundation. And then not so long ago I was accused of lying, citing as an example the text of the agreement in which exactly what I reported about this agreement was written in black and white. At what the dates, figures and characters coincided (which, in general, is not surprising, since I wrote my commentary about this agreement). So the accuser claimed that he had read the contract and that he did not see anything there! Why did he repeat this, even after I sent him a screenshot of the necessary part of the text, having previously opened this contract using the very link that the accuser himself gave me)) In this light, is my request more understandable for you?)

[Foul skeptic]

I didn’t quite understand about the rationale, but okay, we’ll figure it out in the process.
1) about the bombing of Zonguldak

This was the FIRST strike in the world by naval aviation as part of the world's first AUG against enemy ships hidden in the harbor and the Russian Imperial Black Sea Fleet organized and carried out the operation.

2) About the weapons of the "flying boat"

Armed with an automatic gun caliber 37 mm designed by Shishmarev

3) Another "world's first"

made its flight and the world's first torpedo bomber Grigorovich

4) Non-existent declaration

To which the United States on February 9, 1921 published a declaration of the US government, in which it condemned the violation of the territorial integrity of Russia and declared that they would never recognize Japan's rights to the captured.

5) The number of defenders of Tallinn

in Tallinn, the Germans left and captured: 11 military personnel (432 thousand in total defended Tallinn)

6) "Data" of Hungarian historians

in March 1919, the Hungarians mainly "worked" in Russia (100 thousand)

7) 1959-1979

Bryansk region - Russians are 9% less, Armenians, Georgians, Azerbaijanis and others - 30 (thirty!) Times more

8) Again "first"

first AUG-Russian

9)

The dominions of Britain are actually independent states within the empire

10) This is generally one of my favorites

Abandoned at the same time TENS OF MILLION hectares of agricultural land

11) As well as about the annual death of a third of the herd of cattle
12) This is just an example of "reasoning"

for the dumb, everything is "dumb": 100% / 20% = 5.

EVERYONE will die in 5 months (at the same mortality rate as in those two weeks)
dawned not?

13) The difference between messages is 2 hours ))

Quote: Olgovich
USSR in 1983 imported 188 thousand tons of palm oil
Quote: Olgovich
USSR, already in 1983, having imported almost TWO MILLION tons

14)

The entire staff of GPP 1 workers was created and trained at the SCF plant in 1916.

15) About GPZ-1

designed by A Kang with the technical assistance of the Italian company RIV

16)

USSR - THE FIRST in Europe came to depopulation

In fact, if you disassemble all the pearls, then it will be a multi-volume book.

[Woodman]

It is a pity that you did not bring your data as a counterbalance to these "pearls". I briefly ran through the first points (I work, I can’t devote much time). And here's what happens. point one - this phrase appears almost one to one in an article on VO from the 16th year. With links to sources (sources not checked). There are almost 8 dozen comments under the article - there are no complaints on this issue.
point 2. well, we can say that it’s a lie, and not a banal error of performance characteristics from an amateur, but what is the point of such a lie?
paragraph 3. quote from an article on VO "It was the world's first marine torpedo bomber - a special-purpose hydroplane (GASN). The implementation of the project in 1917 was prevented by the October Revolution that began in Russia. Before the start of the revolutionary events, the fleet planned to acquire 10 such seaplanes, but in reality only one was built, which was damaged during testing.
quote from the airport website "The world's first torpedo bomber GASN D.P. Grigorovich took off
(24.08.17)
GASN - special purpose seaplane.
The car was piloted by Senior Lieutenant A.E. Georgians.
Tests of the GASN showed that its seaworthiness and controllability on the water, even with heavy waves, were excellent.
The aircraft was not produced in the series.
point 4. the declaration may not exist, but it is not uncommon to mention it on the net. What is the probability that an ordinary person who stumbles upon it on the network will check its authenticity? For example, I learned about its existence / non-existence solely from you. Again, not sure if this is a deliberate lie. This is if such a declaration really does not exist.
point 5. I entered this question into the network and the first line of the search gave out a wiki, I quote "The total number of Soviet troops in the Tallinn region was up to 20 thousand military personnel: units of the 10th rifle corps of the Red Army, marine infantry units with a total number of up to 14 people with a tank company (from 000 to 11 T-13s), a regiment of Estonian and Latvian workers, supported by ships, coastal artillery and aircraft of the Baltic Fleet.
point 13. hooked, I also checked, I even found Olgovich's comment. He "turned down" about two million dollars). Only the comment in its entirety sounds like this "already in 1983, having imported almost TWO MILLION tons with a population of only twice as much, which is 324 times more than in 1961." 324 times more, this is just the figure from the first comment - 188 thousand tons. An unambiguous cant in the commentary, I will not argue)
Do not think that I am justifying, but everything that I looked on the net, with the exception of points 2 and 13, is difficult to call a conscious lie. Yes, and on these points, most likely banal inattention)
I repeat - it is a pity that you did not give your point of view on these issues. Well, except for the one that "it's not true."

[Foul skeptic]

Do not think that I am justifying, but everything that I looked on the net, with the exception of points 2 and 13, is difficult to call a conscious lie. Yes, and on these points, most likely banal inattention)

And I didn’t write in vain in the beginning

Quote: A vile skeptic

By the way, there is a quite viable opinion of experts that a person speaking something that is not true, cannot be considered a liar if he considers what he says ... to be true.

This is not a banal inattention - this is a lack of knowledge and critical thinking, when any heresy from online sources, at best, the level of Wikipedia, is accepted on faith (as it fits his worldview).
What is worse is that the same thing is rebroadcast with enviable regularity, despite the fact that the fallacy of "judgments" is explained to him. Therefore, you can be "banally inattentive" the first time, but not the next - this will already be a conscious misleading.
You will find my point of view in the correspondence with this comrade. Copying it also is disrespect for other readers, our conversation with you is already off topic.

[Woodman]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

You will find my point of view in the correspondence with this comrade.

I understand your point of view. I see no reason to "wool" someone else's correspondence. Still, I think that there is a difference if a person uses unverified / inaccurate data or frankly lies.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Copying it also is disrespect for other readers, our conversation with you is already off topic of the article.

I agree, chatted off topic. But it was nice to meet a person who can argue his opinion.

[Evgen Medenko]

Quote: Lesovik

the collapse of the Empire began with a civil war

Was there a civil war in the Empire?

[Woodman]

Quote: Evgen Medenko

The Empire had

How long and with what success did the education you allude to exist? Could it, during this period of time and under those conditions, establish power on the territory of the country? And, in principle, in the light of the events under consideration, is it worthy of historical mention at all?

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Lesovik

And because the collapse of the Empire began with a civil war, it was the civil war that ultimately helped create a new state on the ruins of the Empire with practically the same borders.

The collapse of the Empire began immediately after the formation of the Russian Republic - with all sorts of Radas, Universals, Troops and other pulling single and indivisible by national quarters. By the beginning of the Civil War, even the territory of the RSFSR had already been gnawed by the separatists.

[Woodman]

Quote: Alexey RA

The collapse of the Empire began immediately after the formation of the Russian Republic - with all sorts of glad

Those. as soon as there was the slightest legal possibility to tear the Empire to pieces. It's not about the name: Empire, Republic, Union, Federation or Confederation - in fact, the country, as it was, remains the Empire. And the name is an external tinsel.
Although I do not impose my opinion.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Dalny V

In a single state, which was the USSR, there can be no talk of any gifts.

And where did you find a single USSR? The Union was a confederation of sovereign states, each of which had everything necessary (except for the army) in order to go into autonomous navigation at any time.

Quote: Dalny V

There was a revision of the boundaries of subjects.

6. The territory of the Union republics cannot be changed without their consent, and equally, the amendment, limitation or cancellation of Article 4 requires the consent of all the republics of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

© 1924 Constitution

[Foul skeptic]

The Union was a confederation of sovereign states, each of which had everything necessary (except for the army) in order to go into autonomous navigation at any time.

The Union was not a confederation of sovereign states. Neither de jure nor, moreover, de facto.
By the way, you cited an article of the constitution, examples of which directly confirm this.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

The Union was not a confederation of sovereign states. Neither de jure nor, moreover, de facto.

Yes, you are right here - the legal registration of the union republics as sovereign states was carried out only in the 1977 edition.

Article 76 A Union Republic is a sovereign Soviet socialist state which has united with other Soviet republics to form the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

[Sergej1972]

See the latest version of the USSR Constitution of 1936.
Article 15. The sovereignty of the Union republics is limited only in
the limits specified in Article 14 of the Constitution of the USSR. Outside of these
limits, each union republic exercises state
power yourself. The USSR protects the sovereign rights of the allied
republics
Article 16. Each Union republic has its own Constitution,
taking into account the peculiarities of the republic and built in full
accordance with the Constitution of the USSR.
Article 17. The right is reserved for each Union Republic
free exit from the USSR.
Article 18. The territory of the Union republics may not be
mutable without their consent.
Section 18a. Each Union Republic has the right to join
in direct relations with foreign states,
conclude agreements with them and exchange diplomatic and consular representatives.
Article 18b. Each union republic has its own republican military formations.
Source http://www.hist.msu.ru/ER/Etext/cnst1936.htm
As you can see, the last edition of the Constitution of 1936 already spoke of the sovereignty of the union republics. And in the Soviet textbooks on state law and administration, published in the 60s, it was also said about the sovereignty of the union republics and that the ASSRs are non-sovereign republics within the sovereign union republics.
It should be noted that the text of the Constitution of 1936 was supplemented and changed many times under Stalin, and under Khrushchev, and under Brezhnev, and already in the late 50s and early 60s it was very different from the text adopted in 1936. And articles 18 a and 18 b, on the right to diplomatic relations and the right to military formations, appeared under Stalin, in 1944. At the same time, the People's Commissariat of Defense (formally, on paper) and the People's Commissariat of Foreign Affairs (in fact) became union-republican bodies. Under Khrushchev, for example, the list of territories and regions was removed, because their formation and liquidation were completely transferred to the jurisdiction of the Union republics.
Similarly, the Constitution of the USSR of 1977, as amended in 1988-1991, was very different from the original version.

[Sergej1972]

In 1944, the Constitution of the USSR of 1936 included a provision on the possibility of creating republican military formations, and the People's Commissariat of Defense was transformed from an all-union one into a union-republican one. The decision was more of a political propaganda nature. No republican formations were formed, and republican people's commissariats of defense were formed in only a few republics, but the troops were not really subordinate to them, they mostly performed the functions of republican super-military commissariats. And in the early 50s. they were abolished. But nevertheless, until 1977, before the adoption of the Brezhnev Constitution, the Ministry of Defense was formally union-republican, in the absence of the Ministry of Defense in the republics. Since 1977, the Ministry of Defense became an all-union ministry, but the formal right to create military formations by the union republics was preserved in the 1977 Constitution.
By the way, in 1960-1966 there was no single governing body for the police and internal police on the scale of the USSR, all functions were transferred to the Ministries of Public Order of the Union Republics with the coordinating role of the KGB of the USSR. So, during this period there were no united Internal Troops. There were Internal Troops as part of the MOOP of each union republic.
On the other hand, the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR after the restoration in 1966 and the KGB of the USSR after its formation in 1954 were union-republican structures. But at the same time, in 1954-1990, the KGB was in 14 union republics, in the RSFSR, according to the Constitution, it should have been, but it was never created, and in 1965 the mention of it was removed from the Constitution of the RSFSR. All regional and regional departments of the KGB and the KGB of the ASSR on the territory of the RSFSR were directly subordinate to the KGB of the USSR. The same situation was in the RSFSR in 1966-1990 in relation to the Central Internal Affairs Directorate and the Internal Affairs Directorate of the territories and regions and the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the ASSR, which were directly subordinate to the USSR Ministry of Internal Affairs.
But Minchermet, Mintsvetmet, Minnefteprom were officially union-republican from the beginning of the 50s until 1987, although in reality, in most of the territory of the USSR, ferrous and non-ferrous metallurgy, the coal and oil industry were controlled directly through production associations of union subordination. The thing is that during this period in the Ukrainian SSR were subordinate to the Ministry of Coal Industry of the USSR and the Ministry of Chermet of the USSR, the Ministry of Coal Industry of the Ukrainian SSR (by the way, was not in Kyiv, but in Donetsk) and the Ministry of Chermet of the Ukrainian SSR. The Kazakh SSR had a Ministry of Nonferrous Metallurgy, and the Azerbaijan SSR had a Ministry of the Oil Industry. That is, in relation to some branches of industry of union subordination for some republics, there were exceptions to the general rules.
By the way, when, at the suggestion of Ryzhkov, as part of the management reform, the Ministry of Coal Industry and the Minchermet of the Ukrainian SSR, the Mintsvetmet of Kazakhstan and the Minnefteprom of Azerbaijan were abolished with the transformation into production associations, this caused great discontent on the part of the local party and economic elites, and among the part of the population who saw in these events restriction of the rights and economic independence of the republics. However, we all know that after two or three years the pendulum swung the other way...

[Sergej1972]

Before the Bolsheviks came to power, the territorial boundaries of Ukraine were determined within much more modest limits.

[Gardamir]

Speaking of gifts. In hope. that in VO there are still adequate visitors, I constantly tell the story of my hometown. First, during the time of Ivan Vasilyevich, a fortress was laid in the east of the Moscow kingdom. in order to protect themselves from wild cheremis. Then, years later, our town was presented to the Kazan province. After the revolution, they gave it to the Gorky Territory. Have you heard about this one? Not an area. edge. Well, I was born in the Kirov region.
Should I speak. that, as in the case of Ukraine, no one gave anything to anyone .. It was then after 1992 that the bourgeoisie came to power. according to the American model, they made a Federation out of a single country. Now even the regions are more independent.
And in the end, the greatest stupidity is to take today's reality and try it on the past.

[Vladimir_2U]

Well, of course, the Bolsheviks, the UNR and the Ukrainian state, the Bolsheviks proclaimed.

[Serg65]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Well, of course, the Bolsheviks, the UNR and the Ukrainian state, the Bolsheviks proclaimed.

Do you think the Bolsheviks are furious followers of Grushevsky, Skoropadsky and Petlyura ???

[Vladimir_2U]

The Bolsheviks had to make concessions to the national communist parties, not only the Ukrainian one, just so that the followers of Grushevsky, Skoropadsky and Petlyura would not get anything.
Without such a concession, it is not a fact that the USSR, and with it Russia, would have survived at all. Remember the FER, too, after all, it did not contribute to the unity of Russia.

[Serg65]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Remember the Far East, too, after all, it did not contribute to the unity of Russia

But the FER is a thing of the past, so why didn't the Ukrainian SSR stay there?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

The Bolsheviks had to make concessions to the national communist parties

Come on! The Bolsheviks burned out dissent with a red-hot iron, and then they made concessions ... for the sake of national communist parties?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Serg65

But the FER is a thing of the past, so why didn't the Ukrainian SSR stay there?

If only because the FER was ruled by Russian Bolsheviks, basically, and the Communist Party of Ukraine was exactly that of Ukraine.

Quote: Serg65

Come on! The Bolsheviks burned out dissent with a red-hot iron

From what year? What nonsense.

[Serg65]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

From what year

Yes, they started on the 18th!

Quote: Vladimir_2U

and the Communist Party of Ukraine was exactly what Ukraine

And who were the Ukrainians there? Pyatkov? Queering? Kosior? Molotov? Kon? Manuilsky? Kaganovich? Two Russians, a Pole, a German, three Jews.......that's how the Ukrainian Communist Party was created!

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Serg65

Yes, they started on the 18th!

Really nonsense. You are not even aware of the joint actions of the AKP and the VKPB in 1921.

Quote: Serg65

And who were the Ukrainians there? Pyatkov? Queering? Kosior? Molotov? Kon? Manuilsky? Kaganovich? Two Russians, a Pole, a German, three Jews

What does Ukrainians have to do with it as a nationality? But the Communist Party of Ukraine as a separate party was the second largest, even in the Comintern having its own department (representation)! And fought for their share of power. And it was precisely with her that the VKPB had to work. And it was she who had to be coaxed to create and strengthen the USSR.
At least a little bit into the essence of the issue, before echoing the propaganda. By the way, GDP and Katyn recognized Russia as guilty, do you also agree with this?

[Serg65]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

You are not even aware of the joint actions of the AKP and the VKPB in 1921.

The AKP went underground in October 18th, and what you mean is already opportunists in the form of PNK and PKK, in the future their fate was not happy either!

Quote: Vladimir_2U

But the Communist Party of Ukraine as a separate party was the second largest, even in the Comintern having its own department (representation)!

Yes, there was no Communist Party of Ukraine! What Lenin created in December 17th was a counterweight to the RSDLP (b) Russia and nothing more! How many Bolsheviks can you name, immigrants from Little Russia of exactly Little Russian origin ?!

Quote: Vladimir_2U

At least a little bit into the essence of the issue

I began to delve into the essence of the issue back in 88, when graduates of the LVVPU and KVVMPU began to exalt the greatness of Ukraine under the portrait of Lenin!

Quote: Vladimir_2U

By the way, GDP and Katyn recognized Russia as guilty, do you also agree with this?

April 13, 1990. USSR President Gorbachev hands over to the President of the Republic of Poland Jaruzelski copies of documents on the fate of Polish prisoners of war. On the same day, a TASS message was published, recognizing the responsibility of the NKVD for the tragedy in the Katyn forest.
August 25, 1993. During his visit to Poland, Yeltsin, with the words "Forgive us," lays wreaths at the monument to the victims of Katyn in Warsaw.
April 7, 2010 Russian Prime Minister Putin visits the Katyn memorial complex for victims of political repression. In his speech, he never mentions Stalin and the NKVD, but speaks of the common destinies of the Soviet and Polish peoples: “Our people, who went through the horrors of the civil war, forced collectivization, through the mass repressions of the 1930s, understand very well better than anyone else, what Katyn, Mednoe, Pyatikhatka mean for many Polish families ... There can be no justification for these crimes. In our country, a clear political, legal, moral assessment has been given to the atrocities of the totalitarian regime. And such an assessment is not subject to any revisions... For decades, cynical lies have tried to obscure the truth about the Katyn massacres. But it would be just as false and fraudulent to lay the blame for these crimes on the Russian people.”

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Serg65

and what you mean is already opportunists in the form of PNK and PRK, in the future their fate was not happy either!

Well, yes, of course, opportunists, so what is there with a red-hot iron since the 18th year?

Quote: Serg65

What Lenin created in December 17th was a counterweight to the RSDLP (b) Russia and nothing more!

A new word in history, maybe you can also prove at least something?
like this:

The Communist Party of Ukraine emerged from the Bolshevik cells of the Russian Social Democratic Labor Party (RSDLP). For the first time, the decision to create a single all-Ukrainian party organization was approved at the Regional Congress in Kyiv on December 3-5, 1917 under the name "RSDLP (b). Social Democracy of Ukraine"

Quote: Serg65

How many Bolsheviks can you name, immigrants from Little Russia of exactly Little Russian origin ?!

You all have surnames, right?

In 1922 Russians made up 54%, Ukrainians 23%, others 21%.

Quote: Serg65

April 7, 2010 Russian Prime Minister Putin visits the Katyn memorial complex for victims of political repression. In his speech, he never mentions Stalin and the NKVD, but speaks of the common destinies of the Soviet and Polish peoples:

Yes of course:

Speech by the Prime Minister of Russia Vladimir Putin April 7, 2010 at the memorial complex of victims of political repression "Katyn" ........ In this land lie Soviet citizens who were burned in the fire of Stalin's repressions of the thirties; Polish officers shot by secret order; soldiers of the Red Army executed by the Nazis during the Great Patriotic War.

Stunned how you carefully read the recording of the speech.

Quote: Serg65

I began to delve into the essence of the issue back in 88, when graduates of the LVVPU and KVVMPU began to exalt the greatness of Ukraine under the portrait of Lenin!

From the revelations of Ogonyok and Solzhenitsyn?

[Serg65]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

A new word in history, maybe you can also prove at least something?

Well, at least this one!

Quote: Vladimir_2U

like this:
The Communist Party of Ukraine emerged from the Bolshevik cells of the Russian Social Democratic Labor Party (RSDLP). For the first time, the decision to create a single all-Ukrainian party organization was approved at the Regional Congress in Kyiv on December 3-5, 1917 under the name "RSDLP (b). Social Democracy of Ukraine"

Who created? And from isolating from which party?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

You all have surnames, right?

At least ten!

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Stunned how you carefully read the recording of the speech.

I gave you information that before Putin, Katyn was recognized by the General Secretary of the CPSU Central Committee and the first president of the Russian Federation ... and for a long time!

Quote: Vladimir_2U

From the revelations of Ogonyok and Solzhenitsyn?

from personal communication, my friend! In those days, you could still find someone to talk to about this topic .. for example, Tyagnibok's father was the head doctor of the USSR boxing team, many could tell interesting things about him and his family!

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Serg65

Who created? And from isolating from which party?

RSDLP, Sergei, local cells of the RSDLP, moreover, at the Regional Congress in Kyiv, where Lenin, as you understand, was not present .. And not as a counterweight to the RSDLP of Russia (what nonsense), but in order to attract not the most pro-Russian, but socialist-oriented forces. By the way, the Mensheviks, part of the RSDLP, in general, also Lenin created or what? And yet, justify the point of view, why is Lenin a counterweight to the Russian RSDLP?

Quote: Serg65

At least ten!

He gave a percentage for 20 years, enough. And then you will require a biography. And why would you? I did not write anywhere that the Communist Party of Ukraine was created by Ukrainian nationalists, they undoubtedly penetrated there, but much later.

Quote: Serg65

I gave you information that before Putin, Katyn was recognized by the General Secretary of the CPSU Central Committee and the first president of the Russian Federation ... and for a long time!

And why the words of a traitor and drunkard and a link to fake documents? I actually asked you about Putin. And you IGNORED his words!

Quote: Serg65

from personal communication, my friend!

And what does your personal communication in the late 80s have to do with your knowledge and understanding of the reasons for the creation of the Communist Party of Ukraine? None.

[Serg65]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

RSDLP, Sergey, local cells of the RSDLP, moreover, at the Regional Congress in Kyiv

Those. Before the revolution, Russian Social Democrats, Polish-Lithuanian democrats, and even Jewish Social Democrats, existed quite normally, and suddenly, immediately after the revolution, Russian Social Democrats living in Little Russia decided to create their own national party ... why so?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

where Lenin, as you understand, was not present

Well, yes, I won’t argue, he wasn’t there ... that’s a fact! But ... there were two people present, with one of whom Lenin spent more than one night in Razliv .. that is. quite close to Lenin man! And so ... two Jews Zinoviev and Roshal initiate a meeting officially called a congress, drag out the national communist Lapchinsky to the podium, who announces the creation of the SDPU ... and then all 4000 Little Russian Bolsheviks go nuts from the happiness that has fallen on them! And why is Lenin here, if the old, worn-out rug and the young neurosthenic have already arranged everything so beautifully !!!

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Brought the percentage for 20 years, enough

Well, yes, in percentage terms, everything looks much more beautiful!
November 1918 members of the CP (b) U (this is what Skrypnik created in the Russian city of Taganrog in April 18. The CP (b) U was part of the CP (b) U as a regional organization in the CPSU (b)) ... and so members there were 4364 people, of which 130 were Little Russians! 130 Volodya! For tens of millions of the Little Russian population!!! According to Bukharin, the CP(b)U was a Russian-Jewish party!

Quote: Vladimir_2U

I didn’t write anywhere that the Communist Party of Ukraine was created by Ukrainian nationalists

But in vain .. the German Bosch and the Pole Lapchinsky were just the national communists!

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And what does your personal communication in the late 80s have to do with your knowledge and understanding of the reasons for the creation of the Communist Party of Ukraine?

The children of party bosses knew a lot from the life of their parents!

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Serg65

Polish-Lithuanian democrats, even Jewish Social Democrats, immediately after the revolution, Russian Social Democrats living in Little Russia decided to create their own national party ... why so?

And that's what I wrote, remember
but with the aim of attracting not the most pro-Russian, but socialist-oriented forces. Jews and even Galicians (not from the city of Galich) joined the Communist Party.

Quote: Serg65

And why is Lenin here, if the old, worn-out rug and the young neurosthenic have already arranged everything so beautifully !!!

Well, they arranged it, I don’t deny this fact, but I don’t see from you, Sergey, the rationale for the fact that the KPU was created as a counterbalance to the All-Union Communist Party of Russia. Here the creation of the CPU to attract additional forces in the struggle for Ukraine is quite logical.

Quote: Serg65

and so there were 4364 members, of which 130 were Little Russians! 130 Volodya! For tens of millions of the Little Russian population!!!

Do you remember how many Bolsheviks were in more than a hundred million people in Russia?

Let me remind you why I asked you about Putin and his recognition of Katyn. I consider this a big mistake, as well as the recognition of the Holodomor by the State Duma, not the famine, but the Holodomor. I also consider it a gross mistake to recognize the legality of the coup in Ukraine in 14.
So, the creation of national communist parties was also a mistake, but forced, because of the difficult situation. More precisely, this is not even a mistake, but the choice of the lesser evil.

[Serg65]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

in order to attract not the most pro-Russian, but socialist-oriented forces

The question is...what are these socialist-oriented forces and what was their influence on the minds of millions of Little Russians?
Only two such forces come to mind; .. UKP (b) ... moreover, the letter (b) does not mean the Bolsheviks at all, but the Borotbists .... the party of the Left Socialist-Revolutionaries with a nationalist bias. At the end of 17 there were 700 of them.
The UKP Party of National Socialists began its existence with the RUP party ... of which Comrade Petlyura, the predecessor of the Bolshevik Ukrainization, was a member! At the end of 17 there were 2000 Ukapists!
So what kind of forced measure can we talk about? For reference ... Bolsheviks at that time in Little Russia, there were 4000 people! For what purposes did Lenin create the Ukrainian Communist Party with a NATIONAL bias?

Instead of warning the proletarians of the border countries against any separatism as a purely bourgeois trap and nipping separatist aspirations in the bud with an iron hand, the use of which in this case would correspond to the true meaning and spirit of the proletarian dictatorship, they, on the contrary, caused confusion among the [popular] masses with their slogan all border countries and gave scope to the demagogy of the bourgeois classes. By promoting nationalism in this way, they [the Bolsheviks] themselves caused and prepared the disintegration of Russia, and by this they put a knife into the hand of their own enemies, which they intended to plunge into the heart of the Russian revolution.

These are the words of Rosa Luxembourg and they turned out to be prophetic!
What did Lenin say?

We have seen that Rosa Luxemburg considers one of her main "trump cards" in the struggle against the program of the Russian Marxists to be the following argument: recognition of the right to self-determination equals support for the bourgeois nationalism of the oppressed nations. On the other hand, says Rosa Luxemburg, if by this right we understand only the struggle against all violence against nations, then a special point in the program is not needed, because the Social-Democrats. in general against any national violence and inequality.

The first argument, as Kautsky irrefutably pointed out almost 20 years ago, shifts nationalism off the hook, for fearing the nationalism of the bourgeoisie of the oppressed nations, Rosa Luxemburg turns out to be actually playing into the hands of the Black Hundred nationalism of the Great Russians!

Those. according to Lenin ... in the fight against "Great Russian chauvinism" all methods are good .... moreover, "Great Ukrainian" chauvinism is more preferable in the Bolshevik struggle against Great Russianness!

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Serg65

At the end of 17 there were 2000 Ukapists!
So what kind of forced measure can we talk about? For reference ... Bolsheviks at that time in Little Russia, there were 4000 people!

Those. even with the naked eye it is clear that the accession of this party would give an increase in numbers by a THIRD! And you can't see. Whoo. But there were also Jews and the Communist Party of Galicia.

Quote: Serg65

For what purposes did Lenin create the Ukrainian Communist Party with a NATIONAL bias?

Even if Lenin created this party, which is not the case, then the goals are obvious, no matter what you drag in there; the accession of Ukraine to the struggle for the survival of the Soviets, and therefore Russia.

Quote: Serg65

Those. according to Lenin ... in the fight against "Great Russian chauvinism" all methods are good .... moreover, "Great Ukrainian" chauvinism is more preferable in the Bolshevik struggle against Great Russianness!

Oh old song. To begin with, the controversy on this topic lasted for years until 1914, when the "Black Hundred" was far from an illusory enemy, and in continuation: Lenin's "Great Russian chauvinism" and "holding faces" did not concern the entire Russian people, like people like you, all the time trying imagine. And they concerned precisely the "black hundred", the kulaks in the pre-collective farm sense of the word, and the most snickering clergy.
As for the "prophecy" of Luxembourg, the tsarist empire somehow collapsed without the Bolsheviks, with all the "Great Russian chauvinism", as soon as power weakened, exactly the same with the Union.

[Serg65]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Those. even with the naked eye it is clear that the accession of this party would give an increase in the number of THIRD!

Volodya, my soul, it's the same if you said ... unite the workers' socialist CPSU (b) and the workers' socialist NSDAP, we would tear the whole world apart! For God's sake, don't be absurd! Even his western associates did not support Lenin's struggle against Great Russianness!

[Serg65]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

the creation of national communist parties was also a mistake, but forced, because of the difficult situation. More precisely, this is not even a mistake, but the choice of the lesser evil.

You have an interesting approach to events ... the fact that ours is normal, a mistake, of course, but forced .. it was necessary!
And the fact that it’s not ours is a golem mistake without any underlying reason and this is not discussed!
Some kind of dual approach, don't you think?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Serg65

You have an interesting approach to events ... the fact that ours is normal, a mistake, of course, but forced .. it was necessary!

Did they not notice a word about the difficult situation or did they ignore it? Is there a dual approach here?
Now explain what such a difficult stop dictated the recognition of the Polish-Goebbels version of Katyn? Recognition of the purest water of the Bandera "Holodomor" coming out?
Even Yeltsin's: "Take as much sovereignty as you want" even looks more justified than these mistakes.
And the national communist parties at that time were a purely forced decision.

[Serg65]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

They didn’t notice a word about the difficult situation

I have already described that "hardest situation" to you below! But you don’t want to see the situation in 2008-2020!

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Now explain what such a difficult stop dictated the recognition of the Polish-Goebbels version of Katyn? Recognition of the purest water of the Bandera "Holodomor" coming out?

A purely forced decision aimed at softening relations with Poland and bringing Putin and Kaczynski closer to improving economic relations. Kaczynski, by the way, paid for it with his life. The year 2010... Russia is emerging from the crisis, Khodorkovsky concludes an alliance with the Rothschilds, an agreement on the reduction of offensive weapons hanging in the air, the Manege Revolution... Russia needed to get at least neutrality on its borders!
Yes, by the way, "Holodomor" is not a Bandera invention, but just the same of the Ukrainian National Communist Party! It was for this that Kosior paid with his life!

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And the national communist parties at that time were a purely forced decision.

This purely forced decision after 72 years resulted in the collapse of the Union and a lot of blood!!!

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Serg65

The Bolsheviks burned out dissent with a red-hot iron, and then they made concessions ... for the sake of national communist parties?

And how - were the Bolsheviks able to burn out dissent in Transcaucasia with a red-hot iron?
You must remember how, as a result of a trip there, Ordzhonikidze, Stalin and Dzerzhinsky were declared Russian chauvinists and morons.

[Serg65]

Quote: Alexey RA

And how - were the Bolsheviks able to burn out dissent in Transcaucasia with a red-hot iron?

But why?

Quote: Alexey RA

Ordzhonikidze, Stalin and Dzerzhinsky were declared Russian juggernauts and chauvinists

Which did not prevent one of the announcers, namely Makharadze, from becoming the initiator of the creation of a large book "Biography of I.V. Stalin" for the 50th anniversary of the leader! Therefore, Philip died a natural death and in honor, unlike his partner Mdivani!
For the sake of supporting your course, you can endure ... a little!

[Sergej1972]

Maybe I'm wrong, but in Georgia the scale of repressions during the years of "Yezhovshchina" (1937-1938) was somewhat lower than the all-Union. And the percentage of surviving "old Bolsheviks", especially among those who did not hold high positions, was also slightly higher. Makharadze, even until his death, held the honorary position of Chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Council of the Republic. I myself have recently begun to be attracted by the biographies of those state and party leaders who, taking into account their activities during the Civil War and their positions on many issues in the 20s, should have been repressed, but were able to avoid repressions. Indeed, judging by the biographies of a member of the Politburo who at one time sympathized with Trotskyism, Secretary of the Central Committee, in one of the periods of the Chairman of the Party Control Committee Andreev (who generally enjoyed honor and respect both under Stalin, and under Khrushchev, and under Brezhnev), or according to the biographies of the party- statesman and trade union leader Shvernik, or former commissars of the times of the Civil War Zemlyachka, Mekhlis, they should have fallen into the category of repressed. But they, on the contrary, took the most active part in these repressions.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Serg65

Do you think the Bolsheviks are furious followers of Grushevsky, Skoropadsky and Petlyura ???

As for Hrushevsky, do you mean an academician of the All-Ukrainian Academy of Sciences, a full member of the USSR Academy of Sciences and the main theorist of Ukrainization?

[Serg65]

Quote: Alexey RA

Do you mean an academician of the All-Ukrainian Academy of Sciences, a full member of the USSR Academy of Sciences and the main theorist of Ukrainization?

It was him, Comrade Kaganovich's mentor!

[Dart2027]

Quote: Serg65

Bolsheviks are fierce followers of Grushevsky, Skoropadsky and Petliura

It looks a lot like business.

[MBRSS]

Long live Radian socialist Ukraine!
Only socialism, only hardcore will save the situation. Ukraine has a chance, and right now!!! We have to wait at least until 2024 :(

[Lech from Android.]

2024... many have hopes for this year... many will be disappointed in its outcome.
History cannot be reversed instantly.

[Mikhail Sidorov]

Samsonov took the baton from the GVP on criticism of the Bolsheviks. Some solid mistakes were apparently. But now it's good and everything is right. Oh well. So funny it makes me want to cry.

[tatra]

Since the enemies of the communists seized the USSR in their Perestroika, we have been living in their permanent Theater of the Absurd, in which the enemies of the communists who seized the RSFSR have one country to feed the whole world, countries can fall apart by themselves, and the enemies of the communists who have seized the Ukrainian SSR , Ukrainians dug up the Black World, and entered into an agreement with God.
Why is Putin so closed on Lenin and Ukraine? Why did Lenin create not the USSR, not the RSFSR, not Belarus, but precisely Ukraine?
But because Putin had in mind the anti-Soviet-Russophobic Ukraine created by the enemies of the communists after they captured the Ukrainian SSR.
It is so customary among the enemies of the communists to shift the blame for the crimes of some people onto others.

[Serg65]

Quote: tatra

It is so customary among the enemies of the communists to shift the blame for the crimes of some people onto others.

The communists, having decided to enlist the support of the national outskirts, created national republics discriminating against Russians, the enemies of the communists in 1937 put the entire national elite of the communists under the knife, other enemies of the communists considered that the previous enemies of the communists acted cruelly, returned the national communists to power over the national republics, in turn national communists and subsequent enemies of the communists cooperated and completely destroyed the USSR!
something I got confused in your communists and enemies of the communists ....

Quote: tatra

But because Putin had in mind the anti-Soviet-Russophobic Ukraine created by the enemies of the communists after they captured the Ukrainian SSR.

What Putin had in mind, he introduced to Ukraine! The Nazi authorities of Ukraine began decommunization, but somehow not decisively, Putin only showed them the way to real decommunization!

[tatra]

I didn’t understand your nonsense, but you, the enemies of the communists, including the members of the CPSU who “saw their sight” in Perestroika, whom you have been imposing into the power of Russia and the Russian people for 30 years, yourself recognized the capture and dismemberment of the USSR by you as your crimes, and therefore slandered the Bolshevik communists , which is why they cowardly blamed them for your destruction of the USSR, which is why they made up a bunch of delusional anti-Soviet myths to justify your capture of the USSR, such as that "the USSR collapsed", the USSR "collapsed" due to falling world oil prices.

[Serg65]

Quote: tatra

I don't understand your nonsense

Yes, what nonsense is this, this is the History of the CPSU (b) of the CPSU in its purest form!
If you are already positioning yourself as a real communist, then why didn’t you organize Zimmerwald2? It's time, until the age of 24 a little bit left! It's time to act, and not to talk about pears with your tongue ... comrade!

[Ashes of Claes]

Quote: Serg65

It's time to act, and not to talk about pears with your tongue ... comrade!

I beg you .... She was entrusted with carrying a plywood banner and shouting out slogans, judging by the fact that she drags the same game from comment to comment and (as it turns out) from site to site. What do you want from her?
The intrigue lies elsewhere: I suppose the weight of the topvar is wondering - what kind of tribe is this - friends of the communists? Mysterious and mythical, like Samsonov's superethnos?
I want to sketch a series of comics "Tatra Universe" (Marvel - move over!) Hands do not reach yet. One of the main characters will Hyperfighter. I'm working on an image. Until I came up with a super skill for him. But Budyonovka and the Jedi Mauser - definitely.

[parusnik]

Therefore, the Supreme Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Federation Vladimir Putin is absolutely right when he declared his readiness to arrange a real decommunization for Ukraine.

So what are we going to do? Decommunize Nazi Ukraine? Very interesting. During the Second World War, the Nazis in the occupied territories of the USSR carried out, in fact, de-Sovietization and decommunization .. And de-Sovietized Russia, what is going to do on the territory of de-Sovietized Ukraine?

[Serg65]

Quote: parusnik

And what about de-Sovietized Russia, what is it going to do on the territory of de-Sovietized Ukraine?

So you propose to leave Nazi Ukraine alone?

[tatra]

In your "ideology", enemies of the communists, there is nothing good, useful for Russia and the Russian people, but at least adequate.
Here, on the one hand, for 30 years you have been cowardly blaming the responsibility for your capture of the RSFSR on the Soviet Communists, on the other hand, you consider all 30 years that you have every right to do what you want to do with Russia and the Russian people, and that even you have every right and other territories of the former USSR.

[Serg65]

Quote: tatra

enemies of the communists, there is nothing good, useful for Russia and the Russian people, but at least adequate.

Well, why, they carried out industrialization, won the Second World War, restored the country, and then real communists came to power and eventually destroyed the country!

Quote: tatra

on the other hand, you consider all 30 years that you have every right to do whatever you want to do with Russia and the Russian people, and that even you have every right to other territories of the former USSR.

Well, all the same, I'm right ... my friend, why so many ornate words? Speak straight..Hands off Ukraine!!!

[parusnik]

So you propose to leave Nazi Ukraine alone?

Where is it written or do you want to hang a label? .. The USA and Great Britain carried out denazification on their territory of occupied Germany, but only, already in the late 50s, in the USSR, publications began to appear about the revival of Nazism, and every decade more, Remember when was the last time the German Chancellor came to Russia to celebrate the Victory over Nazism? Denazification was successful? I'm talking about the results, and if you start, bring it to the end ... Which I personally doubt.

[Serg65]

Quote: parusnik

Where is it written with me

Well, how about this?

Quote: parusnik

During the Second World War, the Nazis in the occupied territories of the USSR carried out, in fact, de-Sovietization and de-communization .. And de-Sovietized Russia, what is going to do on the territory of de-Sovietized Ukraine?

In your words, you are trying to put Nazi Germany and the Russian Federation on a par! Based on this, I can well assume that YOU, in your right mind and firm memory, support the current government of Ukraine in its assertion that frenzied Russian fascism is waging war with Ukraine !!!
Or not?

[Gardamir]

Decommunize Nazi Ukraine?

How interesting the Communists denationalized Nazi Germany. But if Ukraine is decommunized, does that mean leaving the Nazis behind?

[parusnik]

How interesting

..Do not believe me either. How will this develop? Step by step? How will our de-Sovietizers denazify their de-Sovietizers? ... Although, is it worth discussing ..? You read the news on VO, from M. Zakharova, Zelensky and We don’t touch his government, they are Servants of the people, but we are only engaged in denazification ..

[Revolver]

Historically, these were purely Russian lands, torn away by the Poles and Hungarians. They were returned to Russia during the Partition of the Commonwealth. The western "Ukraine" included the territories of eight regions - Lviv, Ternopil and Ivano-Frankivsk, Volyn, Rivne, Chernivtsi, Khmelnitsky and Transcarpathian. After the collapse of the Russian Empire, these areas were captured by Poland.

Finally, during the partition of Poland, they went to Austria (later Austria-Hungary). The center of the "Ukrainian spirit" Lviv was then called in German: Lemberg. Then Poland grabbed them again, this greedy hyena of Europe ("greedy hyena of Europe" - Winston Churchill), when it is not clear why the Entente decided to restore it.
Stalin took these lands only when the Polish statehood collapsed under the blows of the Wehrmacht. What for? Yes, at least not to leave Hitler. And he annexed it to Ukraine, because that's how the geography developed at that time.
However, Mr. Samsonov often treats history quite freely.

[Ashes of Claes]

Quote: Nagan

Then Poland seized them again, that greedy hyena of Europe ("greedy hyena of Europe

Churchill wrote about hyena appetite: "...Of That Very Poland Which With hyena appetite had only six months before....(hereinafter) - W. Churchill. The Second World War.

Quote: Nagan

when it is not clear why the Entente decided to restore it.

What does "I don't know why" mean? This is point 13 of Wilson's 14 points. Although, by and large, the first "independence" of Poland was granted by the AVI and Germany in November 1916 in order to correct their mobile resource. Then there was the regency, the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, the end of the war and the revision of the Congress of Vienna. And how do you see an alternative solution to the Polish question in 1918?

Quote: Nagan

Stalin took these lands only when the Polish statehood collapsed under the blows of the Wehrmacht.

Why then is Poland a hyena? She, like the USSR, took advantage of the fruits of someone else's victory. Only political, not military. For some reason, no one calls Chekhov hyenas when they squeezed Teshin, taking advantage of Poland's war in the east with Soviet Russia. Before the "miracle on the Vistula" it seemed that "Poland fso". It was also pretty petty, although because of the prevailing image of the victim of Czechoslovakia, the war with the Poles of 1919-1920 is not remembered

[Revolver]

Quote: Ashes of Klaas

And how do you see an alternative solution to the Polish question in 1918?

Yes, even according to Lenin - "A world without annexations and indemnities." Germany, alas, did not agree to this in Brest, and ultimately lost much more. And so it would have been the Soviet-(Russian-)German border of 1914, the Polish Soviet Socialist Republic within the USSR, and no questions like the Danzig corridor. Would there be World War II? Probably, since there was no other way to resolve the grater between Germany and France, but most likely not in the same way and not then, as and when it was in the real world.
And there would not have been a "miracle on the Vistula" either, if only because Poland would not have received almost all German aviation - the best in the world at that time, and in many respects it was those Fokkers that contributed to Poland's victory.

[Ashes of Claes]

Quote: Nagan

Yes, even according to Lenin - "A world without annexations and indemnities." Germany, alas, did not agree to this in Brest, and ultimately lost much more. And so would the Soviet-(Russian-)German border of 1914, the Polish Soviet Socialist Republic within the USSR

interesting alternative)

Quote: Nagan

Would there be World War II? ... And there would be no "miracle on the Vistula" either

Yes, if RI joined the Central Powers, then in general everything would be different)
But this is all crypto history. The front passed through Baranovichi and Kamenetz-Podolsky, and not through Warsaw or Krakow. What borders of 1914 can we talk about in such conditions? It would be more like a capitulation of the Central Powers in the East. The non-annexation world was originally a utopia. And the Versailles system, which made Europe neither more static nor calmer, guaranteed the continuation of the war.

[north 2]

Probably , Lenin did not assume the preservation of Russia as such . The plans of the Bolsheviks, raising the abandoned power by the liberals, were quickly corrected, from such an accidental luck to get power, because the RSDLP was created on the delirium of the International and the world revolution. And then Lenin received power in the "prison of peoples", as he himself said. In Lenin's plans, the destruction of Russia as such was not from his hatred of Russia, but from the dogmas of the International and the world revolution. It was Stalin who later returned Pushkin, Lermontov and Dostoevsky to school programs, and until his death
Lenin was not even mentioned about these lights of Russia in schools - such is the elimination of illiteracy.
Lenin did everything in order to destroy Russia and the Russian world. It was then that Great Stalin corrected everything, but his mistake after the Second World War would not abolish the union national republics by creating either the province of Soviet Russia in their place, there is a total mistake. Believe me, in 1945 no one in the world would even utter a peep if the USSR was transformed into Soviet Russia with provinces instead of republics.
Well, then Khrushchev, Gorbachev and Yeltsin realized that in order to be in power, one must have a loyal elite in the republics. That's why they agreed with the republican Nazis and nationalists, although all of them had a party card. Incidentally , it was after Stalin 's death that races began for the growth of CP members in the Republics of the USSR . So bastards such as Gorbachev and Yeltsin became members, and Stalin was no longer alive, so that an ice pick would be found for them.
Yes, Russia is patient and tolerant, but in my opinion, STALIN should have been written on the Red Square in Moscow on the Mausoleum, and the current deceased should not have been exalted so much, because it was he who began the destruction of Russia as such in general ... But, as they say , we didn’t put this dead man there, it’s not for us to take him out.

[Ashes of Claes]

Quote: north 2

The RSDLP was created on the delusions of the International and the sea revolution

[Ashes of Claes]

Quote: north 2

It was Stalin who later returned Pushkin, Lermontov and Dostoevsky to school programs, and before Lenin's death, these lights of Russia were not even mentioned in schools - such is the elimination of illiteracy.

You lie. The first school program of the Narkompros (1921) practically repeated the pre-revolutionary literary canon. To present Lenin as such a persecutor of Pushkin, Tolstoy and Dostoevsky and to assert that it was Comrade Stalin who “returned” these names to Russia is a gross, tactless and conscious lie.

[Daniil Konovalenko]

The author of this commentary, in his head, horses, people and volleys of thousands of guns mixed up in a bunch ..

[Daniil Konovalenko]

Lenin was afraid that he was being seized control, and attacked Stalin with criticism. Stalin's reasonable plan was crossed out.

Tellingly, V.I. Lenin died on January 22, 1924. And Stalin did not continue his plan, having many supporters, but continued the Leninist idea, the creation of national republics, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan. He did not make Ukraine federal, another federation ZSFSR, dispersed to national apartments, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan. Apparently, Stalin was afraid that Lenin would resurrect, get up from the mausoleum and give him a nanoshka .. Summarizing this article, we can say:

Therefore, Supreme Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Federation Vladimir Putin is absolutely right.

, and if not right, see point one.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Daniil Konovalenko

Apparently, Stalin was afraid that Lenin would rise again, get up from the mausoleum and give him a nanoshka.

Simple fellow author simplifies (but as always). The IVS was opposed not personally by the VIL, but by a group of political opponents of the IVS, which enlisted the support of the VIL. And with the death of Ilyich, these opponents did not disappear anywhere - a flock of comrades openly ate each other until the early 30s (and under the carpet all this continued until the collapse of the USSR). Very difficult continue your planwhen your people's commissariat is liquidated, and you only manage to hold on to the post of general secretary by a miracle.

[Ashes of Claes]

and Russian superethnos

I kept waiting for the Samsonovs' artel to remember about the "superethnos". But he did not expect that she would tie it so clumsily to the theses of the Special Operative, set out by him on the eve of the non-war.

Galician and Carpathian Rus. All these are historically Russian lands inhabited by Russians, which for a century and especially 30 years of the new Ukraine have been confused, fooled, deceived and Ukrainized.

Masterpiece. Do they themselves know that they are "fooled Russians"? Are the queues for Russian passports in Galicia growing? I doubt very much that the speechwriters who pored over Putin's speech will generally agree with this Samson gag.

[Repellent]

Quote: Ashes of Klaas

did not expect that she would screw it so clumsily to the theses of the Special Operative, set out by him on the eve of the non-war

I smell falling...

Quote: Ashes of Klaas

Do they themselves know that they are "fooled Russians"?

The smell intensifies...

[Evgen Medenko]

Bullshit! The Bolsheviks could not create anything, except for galoshes for Africans! Infa 100%!!

[Luminman]

I have a question with the pan head: it is interesting, probably, to live in a state invented by someone, to speak the same invented language, and in schools to study the history that was invented for them?

[shonsu]

I wonder what they will leave her after decommunization ...

[Sergej1972]

Interesting fact. The Politburo existed at the level of the Central Committee of the CPSU and in the only Communist Party of the union republic. All other republics had a Bureau of the Central Committee, and only the Communist Party of Ukraine had a Politburo of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine.

[Kostadinov]

Lenin created the Ukrainian SSR, which later became part of the USSR. The Ukrainian SSR fought in the Second World War together with all the allied republics and remained faithful to the union until its collapse and the restoration of capitalism. This collapse of the USSR and the restoration of capitalism fell on the heads of people, from above from the center from Moscow and not from Kyiv.
Already after the collapse of the union and the change of system, the domination of nationalism, the intervention of external forces and fratricidal war followed.
If you do not realize that Lenin did everything right, then denazification will not work.

[parusnik]

Nah ... we don’t realize this .. We don’t even realize that nationalism has flourished in all the republics of the USSR, somewhere to a greater extent, somewhere to a lesser extent, thanks to de-Sovietization. They renounced the new world, shook off its ashes from our feet, we need a golden idol, and the Soviet hall is hated by us. Moreover, the hall is hated both in Ukraine and in Russia, to one degree or another, what kind of denazification is there?

[ivan2022]

Quote: Serg65

Quote: ivan2022

Civil war and a bunch of acting "independent", "rebels"

Eee? Siberia was also teeming with all sorts of "republics", but they were not united into one taken Siberian Soviet Socialist Republic!

Ukraine - - the UNR already existed, existed since November 1917. without any Bolsheviks ... But "Siberia" .. did not work out. The Siberian peoples did not support. . Do you have serious problems with the perception of what is written?

[Dart2027]

Quote: ivan2022

And "Siberia" did not work out.

Because we were put all the separatists against the wall.

[ivan2022]

Quote: Serg65

Quote: ivan2022

Until now, I believed that Ukraine in the USSR primarily worked

Where, then, did such comrades as Chernovol, Tyagnibok, Parubiy, Drach, Goryn come from in Soviet Ukraine? How could it happen that these communists and Komsomol members became Nazis? Yes, and there are many questions for the second secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, comrade Kravchuk!

And what, Ukraine did not work if Kravchuk was born there?

[doka]

in this way, England cut states in former colonies, they are still fighting Ukraine, at best, federalization is waiting, at worst, they will tear the puppet center into Little Russia and complete crap for the West and Russia, Western Ukraine, there it is necessary to introduce a dictatorship and shed a sea of ​​blood on which even the USSR did not dare

[ivan2022]

Read at least this; ;In January 2022, Ukraine imported 172 thousand tons of diesel fuel from Russia. According to enkorr with reference to the A-95 consulting group, deliveries increased by 41 thousand tons
https://eadaily.com/ru/news/2022/02/18/na-fone-podgotovki-k-vtorzheniyu-rossiya-uvelichila-postavki-diztopliva-na-ukrainu

And stop talking nonsense about the USSR with the British ..

[ivan2022]

In mid-February 2022, about 45% of oil product imports to Ukraine came from Belarus. These are diesel (about 50%) and gasoline (30-35%). About 15-20% more are supplies from Russia.
https://news-front.info/2022/02/21/perekroet-li-lukashenko-postavki-topliva-na-ukrainu/?utm_source=yandex.ru&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=yandex.ru&utm_referrer=yandex.ru
It is, of course, the Bolsheviks "laid a mine."

[Down]

The reason for writing the article is understandable, the commander-in-chief said that Ukraine should be grateful to Lenin. created Ukraine within its current borders. Fact, you can't argue. However, this is how myths arise. History, unfortunately, has no subjunctive mood. And the theme of the military-political situation of that time is not reflected at all. Ivan2022 helped you, Serg65 told you that there was also a Far Eastern Republic. The genius of Lenin is in his achievement of the goal, the ability to answer the question of what to do, when and by what means. All his works are pure methodology with the addition of ideology. He knew ethnography and took it seriously. And most importantly, he achieved his goal, as you know, the main criterion for truth is practice. An excursion into history, it is informative, but now there is no empire and the Soviet Union. You completely forgot the ratification of the Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation, within the framework of which the modern borders of Ukraine were fixed, let me remind you that this was 1998. Yeltsin was the president then, and many here reminded you of him. Before writing an article and nodding at Lenin, well, learn from the professional V.F. Zhirinovsky, listen to his speech before the ratification of the treaty with Ukraine. There are prophetic words "You will be ashamed before your descendants, for what you will do now." And he did not mention Lenin, understanding the essence of the term place and time. A clear condemnation of Yeltsin's policy has not yet been voiced, and in the conclusion of the article, by your silence, you showed that you are a supporter of his successors. Then answer, if we take the date of death of Alexander Ulyanov in 1887. and until 1920, the time of Lenin's serious illness, the latter succeeded in 33 years, turning the whole world upside down, which prevented you from repeating, implementing what was declared and proving your case in practice. The point is not what territory to leave to whom, but in methodology, ideology, raising living standards, at least to the level of European countries, Germany, France, and preferably not at the expense of the standard of living of the Russian population in the process of re-educating Ukrainians.

[otto9966]

"Russian of Georgian origin" - it certainly sounds funny, then Afro - Russian or Indo Russian is also written over?))))

[p0pulivox]

How the Bolsheviks created Ukraine

Yeah, only in the comments again there are a lot of fair objections to the author of this article. And here is the opinion of another opponent:
“Falsification, manipulation of public consciousness and deceit are costly”
M. Sinelnikov-Orishak
http://svpressa.ru/society/article/326140/

[Igorash]

They learned how to lie .. there is someone to take from .. You work according to Goebbels .. so, Ukraine was created by a third thanks to the gifts of our tsars ... And Lenin ... So you start in order, what was happening at that time. Friends of the current the authorities carried out a coup d'etat in February (proof that it is their friends, and maybe relatives in your hands. Take a look at the coins of our bank. There is a coat of arms on it ... And what kind of coat of arms .. Correctly-Kerensky.) ... The Bolsheviks are not were ready to take power, but had to, because. the country began to disintegrate ... Ukraine also declared independence ... Let's add German ... Yes, what can I tell you, you can read all this ... It was not done from a good life, but correctly .. It was the addition of the Russian ethnic group that subsequently and there was an appeal to the Soviet government for help .. And the Soviet government responded ... Yes, I had to pay off the Germans ... But Stalin returned everything and more .. So who is corrupt? an agreement on the destruction of a great power in Belovezhskaya Pushcha ... They lied, perverted everything, mixing truth with lies. It's time for you to tear off your heads ... And everything is going to this .. AND THIS IS CORRECT ...

[uyrii]

So what about Belarus? "In March 1924 and December 1926, part of the Russian territory, namely: parts of Vitebsk (with the city of Vitebsk), Smolensk (with the city of Orsha), Gomel province (with the city of Gomel) provinces were returned to the Byelorussian SSR (thus the territory of the BSSR has more than doubled). "- from Wikipedia. and what does it mean "returned" ..????

[Yellow bubble]

We fight with ourselves because the Jews want to. Cool!!!

[ivan2022]

Quote: Yellow Bubble

We fight with ourselves because the Jews want to. Cool!!!

And Samson was a tough ancient warrior, there are so many of you here, and he is alone .....

[Alt 22]

In general, it is correct, but there are some inaccuracies.

For example, the phrase

As a Russian of Georgian origin

- wild lying nonsense.
Joseph Dzhugashvili, Stalin - nowhere and never called himself Russian. Nowhere and never renounced his Georgian people.

Further, statements about the "triune Russian people", and, in particular, the words taken out of context

The Russians, according to the difference in their dialects, are divided into Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians.

- let me remind you that the word "Russians" in the Russian Empire meant the Russian peoples - and this term was used, as a rule, in the plural, and in the context of "East Slavic peoples." Here is an example, the results of the 1897 census of the population of the Russian Empire by ethnic composition, please note that all three nationalities (nationalities, as the ethnographers of the Russian Empire said) are listed separately in the table:

If this is not one group of East Slavic peoples, but "one people", then WHY is the number of "one people" indicated separately for each of the nationalities ???

And, although sometimes the Russian peoples were called the "Russian people" - while the number of Great Russians (current Russians), Little Russians (current Ukrainians) and Belarusians was always counted separately, while counting the total number of all three peoples - because they are really related.

[Ivan Lelekov]

How tired I am already of these illiterate fairy tales of the level of RenTV and Fomenka. Look at the 1897 census and calm down already. The Ukrainian SSR included the lands where the largest Ukrainian population lived. Where there are fewer, they entered the RSFSR (like Belgorod and Voronezh).

And the Eastern Slavs were divided into three nations back in the Republic of Ingushetia. What is reflected in the population census - they are listed there along with Germans, Jews and Poles (is this also part of the Russians?).

By God, like little children, they pull the owl onto the globe in the desire to prove the unprovable. Some of these idiots talk about the diggers of the Black Sea, others spin fantasies about an invented Ukraine and deny its existence. Because I want it that way. And I don’t care how it really is.