Military Review

Weapon innovations and weapons purchases of the XNUMXth century

149

Artillery of the Russian state of the 1th century: 2 - officer in full dress, mid-3th century; XNUMX - a gunner in full dress, XNUMX - an ordinary gunner in everyday attire. Images of breast mirrors were made from photographs from the collection of the Artillery Museum in St. Petersburg. Rice. Angus McBride


If you sell anything to your neighbor, or buy anything from your neighbor, do not offend one another;
The third book of Moses. Leviticus 25:14

History military affairs. Last time, talking about the archers of the Russian state, I deliberately did not mention a number of very specific aspects of the development of domestic military affairs in the XNUMXth century, namely, its no less than under Peter the Great ... orientation to the West. Actually, Peter only continued the tradition that existed before him. Although there is some difference. Before Peter, they imported into Russia weapon and borrowed tactics. At the same time, uniforms were also borrowed. It is clear that it will not be very pleasant for our readers of VO, who are overzealous in their patriotic mood, to read about all this, but what happened, it happened. And what can you do if at that time we had such a strong technological dependence on the West, and ... even more than that, one very specific feature of production. Its essence is that our masters could make individual samples of weapons no worse than in the West. That is, they were not inferior to the local gunsmiths in skill. But many of the same and high-quality weapons were beyond our production to produce. Here, the lack of good metal played a role, and the lack of an established workshop organization, in a word, we never had enough of our own weapons in the XNUMXth century and we had to constantly buy them abroad.


Today, photographs of artifacts from the collection of the State Hermitage Museum will be used as illustrations for the article, and… among them there is something to see! Let's start with the wheellock musket by Hans Fischer, Munich, Germany, 1590-1600. Shotgun length 113,5 cm; barrel length 84 cm. Cleaning rod length 82 cm

In addition, throughout the XNUMXth century, Russia fought almost continuously, its army grew by leaps and bounds, and it needed a lot of weapons. But how many, we'll see now.


Musket with wheel lock by Daniel Sadeler and Hieronymus Bortschoffer, Munich, Germany, 1632-1637. Length 109 cm; barrel length 82 cm; ramrod 83 cm

Weapon innovations and weapons purchases of the XNUMXth century
Musket with wheel lock, late 70th century. Western Europe. Length 45 cm; barrel length 46,1 cm; ramrod length XNUMX cm

Let's start with the fact that during the 1630-1670s. in Russia, in addition to the archers, the so-called "regiments of the new system" appeared. In the period from April 1630 to the end of 1633, 10 regiments of the "new system" were formed with a total number of up to 17 thousand people.


Matchlock musket 1634 Western Europe. Length 155,5 cm; barrel length 117 cm; ramrod length 118 cm. The barrel is removed from the stock and shown separately

The most widespread among them were soldier regiments, reiters, dragoons, and even hussars. True, by 1680 the dragoons were liquidated as a branch of the army and transferred to soldiers. Nevertheless, the role of the noble local cavalry still fell very much, because now there were three to four times more infantry than cavalry. But both the infantry and the cavalry, both the old, local, and the new system, needed firearms, but there was nowhere to get them. For example, in 1631, Tula craftsmen could produce only 2000 squeakers a year, while in the regiments of the new system there were 1600 people in the infantry and 1000 in the cavalry. With similar tortoise methods, the armament of all regiments would be stretched out for many years. Therefore, in the same 1631, 19 muskets and 000 swords were purchased in Western Europe!


Musket with wheel lock, 1670 Germany. Total length 105cm; barrel length 80 cm

In 1647, preparing for the war with Poland, Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich ordered to purchase 2348 pairs of pistols for cavalry in the West, and in 1660 another 2000 pairs of the same pistols with a wheel lock. So, on the one hand, the Russian Reiter and Hussar cavalry were armed with the most first-class weapons for that time, but their own production was at a completely unsatisfactory level.


Flintlock gun with percussion lock ("mikelet") of the 101th century. France. Length: 65 cm; barrel length: 65,6 cm; cleaning rod: XNUMX cm

Meanwhile, a lot of weapons were required. After all, the army is constantly growing! In 1663, it already had 80-90 thousand infantry soldiers (55 regiments) and 20 thousand reytars (20 regiments), that is, four times more infantrymen than cavalry. But only now the infantryman needed only one barrel, while the riders needed 2, or even 3 (including, in addition to two "pistols", also a "measured squeaker").


Wheeled pistol with a ramrod, late 71th – early 51th century. France. Length: 50 cm; barrel length: XNUMX cm; cleaning rod length: XNUMX cm

Therefore, not only finished weapons and their individual parts were imported from the West, but also raw materials for their production in Russia. So, in 1629, about 25 pounds (about 000 tons) of “good iron”, bought at a high price, were brought from Sweden! Although back in 400 deposits of high-quality iron ore were discovered in the Urals. However, in 1628-1629. only 1630 pounds of iron were smelted from this local iron, and only 63 squeakers, two anchors and a certain number of nails were produced.


Western European dragoon 1630. Such dragoons fought on the side of Poland and on the side of Sweden. Here - he killed one of these and received both a sword and a musket! Illustration from the book V. Vuksic, Z. Grbasic. Cavalry. The history of fighting elite 650BC–AD1914" London, Cassell, 1994, P.122

On the other hand, many weapons were captured by Russian troops as a result of battles won. It was more than inconvenient for an infantryman to run with an 8-10-kilogram musket in his hands, so they were thrown in the first place. The killed horse immediately gave two pistols as trophies, and if the rider was also killed in addition, then the number of acquired weapons could double on average!


Pistol of Peter Danner, 1602 Germany, Nuremberg. Length: 38,2 cm; barrel length: 22,8 cm; ramrod: 22,2 cm; key: 9,5 cm

Another reason why we then had to buy small arms in Europe was, oddly enough, our own well-established production of ... artillery pieces. Despite the lack of iron, we had a lot of guns made, both bronze - we note that bronze casting in Russia was a very ancient art - and "iron", that is, cast iron. So, during the Smolensk campaign of the 1630s, the army had 151 large guns and seven mortars; in 1678, there were 150 artillery pieces in 3575 cities, and by the end of the century, the active army had from 300 to 350 guns. In his own royal regiment, as the largest, there were 200 guns, and in each voivodship regiment - from 50 to 80. The new "soldier" regiments, like the archers, had from six to twelve guns each. The dragoons also had their own horse artillery, up to 20 guns by 1680. At the same time, the calibers of the guns were reduced in order to increase mobility, the weight of the projectile was also reduced from 10-5 to 3 pounds. New types of guns also appeared, including breech-loading, rifled, multi-barreled, and even short guns with "square barrels" for firing buckshot ("shot"); although their diversity created serious problems. During this period, Russian gun carriages were painted red, although later, during the reign of Peter the Great, it was changed to green. Interestingly, the number of guns in the Russian regimental artillery of the 1650th century. outnumbered any Western European army, and the number of servicemen in this type of troops increased from the beginning of the 1680s to the beginning of the 1,5s by more than XNUMX times.


Wheel pistol 1630 Germany, Nuremberg. Length: 61 cm; barrel length: 44 cm

On the other hand, a lot of iron was also required ... a trench tool. Indeed, in Russia at that time, the construction of security lines, fortresses and prisons was almost continuously going on. Ditches and ditches were dug, shafts were poured, which were lined with turf, logs were chopped, sanded, “rallyed”, “cities” were fenced and filled with earth, and, naturally, all this required metal tools.


56th century flintlock pistol Italy. Length: 40,5 cm; barrel length: 40 cm; cleaning rod: XNUMX cm


Wheeled pistols (pair), early 51th century Germany. Length: 31,5 cm; barrel length: XNUMX cm

A foreigner, Colonel Krafert, who was in the Russian service, made an interesting calculation, according to which four artillery regiments needed 5000 shovels, 80 crowbars, 200 picks and 400 axes to build field fortifications. To transport all this and the necessary ammunition, 1500 wagons with draft horses were required, that is, 375 for each regiment. Naturally, all these horses were shod, even if they had two legs, and not four - that's 750 iron horseshoes!


Of course, in the collections of the State Hermitage there are also quite a few such weapons that were bought as gifts, curiosities, or fell into the form of military trophies. For example, this sword with a flaming blade and a wheeled pistol from 1560 could not be a mass-produced weapon. She was either made to order and bought as a curiosity, or it was an equally outlandish trophy, which is why she survived and then did not go to the smelter. Made in France and very richly finished. Techniques such as chasing, carving, gilding, etching, taushing, weaving were used. Length: 83 cm; blade length: 59 cm; barrel length: 40 cm; handle: 17 cm

An important role in the purchase of foreign weapons in the 1650s - early 1660s. played by Englishman John Gebdon. In 1652, together with two foreigners, he was sent to Europe to buy Venetian goods for the royal court. With this mission, he successfully coped, "did not steal." Therefore, in 1658 he was sent to Holland to buy muskets, carbines, "pistols" and gunpowder, which, by the way, we also lacked, like metal. There he bought 20 thousand muskets and swords, and in the early 1660s. conducted a series of transactions that allowed Russia to receive muskets with bandels, carbines, pistols, swords, infantry lances and large quantities of gunpowder. He also carried out an operation to purchase and deliver to Russia two thousand horses for two Reiter regiments. It doesn't seem like much, does it? But the thing is that thoroughbred horses cost a lot of money. For example, in 1633, the cost of the horses of the hussar company of the Lithuanian hetman could be 120-300 zlotys per head. In a more familiar expression for us, this is something about 8,9 kg of silver for ... the cheapest of the good horses!


Cavalry war hammer (chasing) with a wheeled pistol, circa 1590-1600. Western Europe. Total length: 58,2 cm; barrel length: 40 cm

Many weapons were purchased as samples, and then copied by our craftsmen. This is evidenced by the names of our, Russian weapons. For example, French flintlocks in the first quarter of the XNUMXth century were called “Borabor” (Brabant) in our country, and you can find, for example, the following description:Pair of pistoles of Svitsky (Swedish) iron. Philip case. Locks for Borabor business. Machine tools ivory". At the same time, the main centers where pistols, pistol barrels, and locks were purchased were Holland, Sweden, England and Germany.


A typical Western European reiter around 1580. It is enough to dress him in a short tyagilyai, a “paper hat”, shorter boots and wide ports - and our reiter of the middle of the 2002th century will be. L. and F. Funkens. Encyclopedia of weapons and military costume. Middle Ages. Renaissance: Infantry - Cavalry - Artillery. M .: AST Publishing House LLC: Astrel Publishing House LLC, 45. P. XNUMX


Russian rider of the noble local cavalry of the XVI century. Naturally, a noble, not some seedy nobleman from near Tula. Red morocco boots, green morocco scabbard. The saber itself is most likely Turkish or Persian. Bracers, bakhterets and a helmet - make up protective weapons. But there are no pistols in olstra yet, their time in Russia has not yet come. Illustration from the book V. Vuksic, Z. Grbasic. Cavalry. The history of fighting elite 650BC–AD1914" London, Cassell, 1994, Р.115

The "Census Book" of the Armory mentions, for example, "a pair of Moscow pistols for the English case, steel barrels"(pistols of 1625 by the master Timofey Luchaninov). Castles of the Anglo-Dutch type were called "Shkotsky" in our country. So often the master only made the box itself, but on the other hand it was richly inlaid with ivory and mother-of-pearl, and the barrel and lock were “English case". Locks, like trunks, were most often supplied from Holland, as well as the cities of Hamburg and Lübeck. All these and many other details became known due to the presence of a developed bureaucracy in the Russian state. Dragoons appeared - the "Order of the Dragoon System" was immediately established, regiments of reiters and spearmen appeared - the "Reiter order" was created, the "Order of the musket business" was in charge of firearms, while the "Order of the barrel case" (Barrel order) was in charge of rifle and pistol trunks. Well, it is clear that absolutely everything was recorded there, and many of the documents from these orders, fortunately, have been preserved for historians.


Truly an amazing creation, worthy of pride and admiration, although it looks unprepossessing: a five-shot squeaker, with sequential loading, the first half of the 122th century. - the creation of our Russian masters! Material, technique: cast iron; casting, carving. Length: 23 cm; caliber: XNUMX mm

All military people who served in the regiments of the new system received regular cash and grain salaries, uniforms, weapons and ammunition for it. As a result, all these regiments of the new system were completely supported by the state, which, by the way, is one of the signs of a regular army. True, state support was not extended to all categories of the military. The reason is simple - lack of money. For 1630-1670. expenses for the maintenance of the armed forces in peacetime increased from 275 to 700 thousand rubles.


Elite cavalry of the Moscow kingdom of the 1th century: 1687 - Andrey Shepelev - boyar-voivode, 2; 3 - governor of the local cavalry, middle of the 1650th century; 600 - royal guards in full dress, early 6th century. In 600, a foreigner in the Russian service, Christopher Rylsky, being a colonel, led the first hussar regiment in the Russian army, created according to the Polish model. He was given a dragoon "shkvadron" of 12 dragoons, reduced to 18 companies, and armed with 1654 "dragoon muskets", and XNUMX protazans were given to the initial people. Rylsky, together with the regiment, participated in the solemn departure of Alexei Mikhailovich on May XNUMX, XNUMX: “Colonel Rylsky led 1000 hussars, uniformed according to the Polish model, with drums and pipes. His horse had: a sultan on his head, wings on his back and an expensive chaprak embroidered with gold". That is, the wings behind the back were used in Russia, but outwardly they differed from those that the Polish hussars had! Rice. Angus McBride

A paid army, armed in addition with foreign weapons, demanded huge expenses. They were covered by taxes, of which there were a lot in the Russian state. They had to pay full-time (for the ransom of captives), pishchalnye (for the purchase of weapons) and yamchuzhny (for the purchase of gunpowder) money, as well as fees for the city and secession business, for payment of tax and field people. In addition to these taxes in the XVII century. new ones were introduced: the archery tax, a cash tax on pay for soldiers and dragoons in the amount of 25 kopecks to one ruble from each peasant or bobyl yard. Posadskys (commercial and craft population of cities) paid a certain part of their income: “a fifth of money”, “a tenth of money”, etc. In addition to permanent military taxes, they also collected lump-sum taxes, and this was done by both the state and local authorities.
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  1. yuriy55
    yuriy55 5 February 2022 05: 56
    +3
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich. Interesting article. Made me think about the last paragraph:
    A paid army, armed in addition with foreign weapons, demanded huge expenses. They were covered by taxes, of which there were a lot in the Russian state. They had to pay full-time (for the ransom of captives), pishchalnye (for the purchase of weapons) and yamchuzhny (for the purchase of gunpowder) money, as well as fees for the city and secession business, for payment of tax and field people. In addition to these taxes in the XVII century. new ones were introduced: the archery tax, a cash tax on pay for soldiers and dragoons in the amount of 25 kopecks to one ruble from each peasant or bobyl yard. Posadskys (commercial and craft population of cities) paid a certain part of their income: “a fifth of money”, “a tenth of money”, etc. In addition to permanent military taxes, they also collected lump-sum taxes, and this was done by both the state and local authorities.

    Here is the data:
    “The presented “defense budget” is balanced and effective. In absolute terms, national defense spending in 2022 will be RUB 3 mln, in 2023 – 3 million rubles and in 557 – 223,3 million rubles,” Andrey Kartapolov said.

    I figured that if today we had to collect for defense, then every Russian would have to pay 2022 rubles for 24 (I took the population of Russia as 209,79 people).
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 5 February 2022 06: 35
      +2
      "like 145" figs how much according to the last census
      1. yuriy55
        yuriy55 5 February 2022 07: 28
        0
        Quote: vladcub
        "like 145" figs how much according to the last census

        I can only say that the number of deaths in 2021 was 2. And the GDP growth in the funeral services sector has increased significantly...
        145 inhabitants - rounded number.
        As of January 1, 2022, according to Rosstat, there were 145 permanent residents in Russia...

        But we know that there will definitely be people whom we simply will not find.
        hi
        1. knot master
          knot master 5 February 2022 10: 38
          +4
          When the expression "we know" is just a demagogic device.
        2. Eroma
          Eroma 5 February 2022 15: 47
          +4
          Taxes are taken from working people wink children and the elderly are not taxed, in reality 90 million workers and peasant women are subject to taxes laughing it turns out about 40000 on the nose wassat from a family 80000, or 6600 per month belay

          The article is interesting good
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 February 2022 06: 42
      +10
      Too simplistic approach. It must be remembered that in the 16-17th century, most of the army consisted of local cavalry, which served "for the land" and archers - "for benefits."
      And even today, the share of the "military budget" is only part of the state's burdens.
      1. Cartalon
        Cartalon 5 February 2022 09: 40
        +5
        In the 17th century, the local cavalry was no longer the majority, or even the main force of the Russian army.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 February 2022 14: 23
          +2
          Quote: Cartalon
          In the 17th century, the local cavalry was no longer the majority, or even the main force of the Russian army.

          15 thousand at Sheremetyev near Narva! Not a little.
          The problem is different, the advanced irregular cavalry definitely lost to the cavalry.
          Konev regiments of the "new system" could also be called regular with a big caveat. Seriously, a mixture of "bulldog and rhinoceros" is more accurate than local cavalry with elements of a mercenary gang (in the good sense of the word).
          1. Detnix
            Detnix 7 February 2022 11: 55
            -3
            "The number of Russian troops of the new system was in 1632 about 9 thousand 500 people (5 or 6 regiments), in 1663 - 77 thousand people, in 1681 - 90 thousand people, including 33 foot soldier regiments (61 thousand people) and 25 cavalry regiments (29 thousand people); archers in 1681, there were more than 20 thousand people.

            The entire army, according to 1681, numbered more than 180 thousand people (except for the Don Cossacks, Terek, Yaik and others). By the beginning of the reign of Peter I, the regiments of the new system accounted for more than half of the entire army. The number of noble local cavalry with the introduction of troops of the new system is falling sharply. In the second Crimean campaign of 1689, the regiments of the new system numbered more than 78 thousand people, and the regiments of the old system - 17 thousand people, out of the entire composition of the nobles and children of the boyars, there were up to 8 thousand people.
      2. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 5 February 2022 16: 21
        +7
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        It must be remembered that in the 16-17th century, most of the army consisted of local cavalry, which served "for the land" and archers

        Not only. They also paid salaries, otherwise the landlords, impoverished after the turmoil, could not equip themselves. There are descriptions of how, under Mikhail Fedorovich, the nobles came to the review not only on foot, but also without boots. request
  2. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 5 February 2022 06: 11
    +12
    The author showed samples of weapons from which I would never shoot, how to shoot from such beauty ... it's a pity. It is better to hang on the wall and admire its grace and perfection of forms. smile Well, in Russia those times were very, very bloody.
    Pleased again Vyacheslav with an interesting article. hi
  3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 February 2022 06: 15
    +9
    Thank you!
    The illustrations are just amazing! The 16th-17th centuries are probably the most pretentious in terms of decorating weapons and armor.
    Question to Vyacheslav Olegovich, how did you come to an agreement with the Hermitage to publish photographs of his collection?
    1. kalibr
      5 February 2022 08: 15
      +16
      It turned out very simply. I wrote a letter there. to the SO department. I am SO. Explain who, what and why. He was handed over to the head of the funds department. I was asked to write a letter addressed to Piotrovsky according to the form. List all inventory numbers. I pointed. He signed. They sent me a copy to sign. I scanned and sent them back. They sent me a signed copy by email and a paper copy by registered mail. I got it and here it is!
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 February 2022 08: 41
        +8
        They sent me a signed copy by email and a paper copy by registered mail. I got it and here it is!

        Well done Peters!!!
        1. Sergey79
          Sergey79 5 February 2022 16: 42
          +1
          Hello! To the author, many thanks for the article. Informative, conclusive.... BUT!!! I do not agree with the conclusions.
          Huge request, write a series of articles.
          Possible topics:
          1. Export of arms from Russia in the 17th century. (Only for artillery. 1646 - more than 600 ord., 1647 - 360. Cores - 43892. Data from the Encyclopedia of Armaments. This is Holland. And England ????);
          2. I ask you to conduct a comparative analysis of the cost. (NOT FACT, but the 'trading book' - a descriptive book on how young people can bargain.) may come in handy.).
          And now the criticism.
          1. Stupid is the person who does not study the tactics of "potential friends".
          2. Uniform. I thought that after the archers in France they introduced the cloak of the guardsman of the cardinal .... Maybe I'm wrong ???
          You are requested to answer the questions.
          And then, we ourselves will decide that we are "not very pleased" ...
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 5 February 2022 18: 50
            +4
            Quote: Sergey79
            I thought that after the archers in France they introduced the cloak of the guardsman of the cardinal .... Maybe I'm wrong ???

            Strongly unlikely. Musketeer's cloak is a direct descendant of the medieval "tabar"

          2. kalibr
            5 February 2022 19: 32
            +2
            Quote: Sergey79
            Possible topics:
            1. Export of arms from Russia in the 17th century. (Only for artillery. 1646 - more than 600 ord., 1647 - 360. Cores - 43892. Data from the Encyclopedia of Armaments. This is Holland. And England ????);
            2. I ask you to conduct a comparative analysis of the cost. (NOT FACT, but the 'trading book' - a descriptive book on how young people can bargain.) may come in handy.).

            Sergei! Did not deal with this topic. This is where the problem is. It is necessary to read, look to make requests. It will take time. And I don't know one more. And whether it will be interesting to me, that's where the dog is buried.
            1. Sergey79
              Sergey79 6 February 2022 09: 57
              +1
              It's a pity. The topic, in my opinion, is very interesting, little studied (maybe forgotten). Unfortunately, I don't have enough time. Every time I think to start publishing on VO both on historical topics and on artillery. But I always procrastinate. Work does not give rest.
              1. kalibr
                6 February 2022 10: 12
                +2
                Dear Sergey!
                Quote: Sergey79
                Every time I think to start publishing on VO both on historical topics and on artillery. But I always procrastinate. Work does not give rest.

                Try. By virtue of my age and the status of my residence, I am simply doomed to "jump on top." I simply physically cannot write on little-studied topics. You, the young, in this "game" and the cards in hand!
                1. Sergey79
                  Sergey79 6 February 2022 10: 52
                  +2
                  Thanks for the "advice". It is with great pleasure that I read your articles. Keep it up! "The old horse does not spoil the furrow" ... Health to you and creative success!
                  1. kalibr
                    6 February 2022 10: 54
                    +1
                    Thanks, Sergey! I am very touched.
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 5 February 2022 08: 58
        +5
        "it turned out very simple" V. Oh, keep it up! Maybe get some more pictures from the "armory"?
        1. kalibr
          5 February 2022 09: 13
          +7
          Quote: vladcub
          get more pictures from the "armory"?

          Your mouth ...
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 5 February 2022 08: 58
      +8
      The Hermitage is generally a fairly open and democratic organization.
      1. kalibr
        5 February 2022 09: 14
        +11
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        The Hermitage is generally a fairly open and democratic organization.

        That's it!
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 5 February 2022 17: 11
          +2
          Unlike Artmuseum and Russian.
          1. kalibr
            5 February 2022 19: 29
            +4
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Unlike the Art Museum

            Well, Nikolai went to the Art Museum and they gave him everything ...
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 5 February 2022 19: 35
              +2
              It was fly walking
              1. kalibr
                5 February 2022 19: 37
                +5
                I understand, and he wrote to me about it. But in 1984, I ended up in the storeroom of the Soviet Army Museum in Moscow. And it was also very difficult. Very. But got. And then it was more difficult than now. Although sometimes they ask for money.
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 5 February 2022 19: 47
                  +6
                  And it was also very difficult.
                  And why? And why the hell do all these domestic museum muses need it? After all, the Art Museum has not answered you on the subject of executioner swords, the ghoul Kulinsky is sitting, "wasting away over gold" ...
          2. Sergey79
            Sergey79 6 February 2022 10: 01
            +1
            We simply do not "see" the Museum of Artillery ourselves. There, in the exhibits, one can trace the evolution (degradation). For example - compass.
      2. Catfish
        Catfish 5 February 2022 10: 06
        +6
        But this is one whole with the Winter Palace!!!

        Hello, nephew. fellow
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 February 2022 10: 32
          +3
          Quote: Sea Cat
          But this is one whole with the Winter Palace!!!
          Definitely wider! The Hermitage, in contrast to the Kremlin Armory, organizes traveling Hermitages in the provinces. Not uncommon in our city. I always try to visit them.

          Hello, nephew. fellow
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 5 February 2022 11: 02
            +4
            Hello, hello! smile
            It's just that Anton and I continue our previous conversation. laughing
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 February 2022 14: 05
              +5
              Uncle Kostya just ate my comment!!!
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 5 February 2022 14: 11
                +4
                And this is probably a starved hamster, which puts minuses for us. If only someone would feed him, otherwise the animal will die, it will stink, although from him even now ... laughing
            2. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 5 February 2022 17: 21
              +5
              Hi uncle!

              The Hermitage during the Blockade. Do you understand what I was talking about?
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 5 February 2022 17: 28
                +4
                Of course I do, so what?
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 5 February 2022 17: 35
                  +5
                  And the fact that the Winter Palace is just a building, and the Hermitage is its contents. A destroyed building can be restored (like the Germans in Dresden), a burned-out painting - never!
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 5 February 2022 18: 05
                    +5
                    Wow, we didn't know... request
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 5 February 2022 18: 22
                      +3
                      laughing It’s not otherwise you can joke, uncle, over your beloved nephew, because I can fall into “childhood” and burst into tears for the whole forum: “Save me, help me, Uncle Kostya doesn’t love me!” laughing
                      1. Catfish
                        Catfish 5 February 2022 20: 07
                        +6
                        Oh, come on, it would be because of what to break spears. smile


                        ... Uncle Kostya doesn't love me!" laughing


                        "Good girls don't like me,
                        And I don’t want bad ones myself "(c)

                        That would be a tragedy, but "Uncle Kostya" ... to hell with him, with this uncle. laughing
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 5 February 2022 20: 19
                        +4
                        Good girls tend to be "cute how silly!" I'm not interested in stupid people.
                      3. Catfish
                        Catfish 5 February 2022 20: 33
                        +6
                        Here I agree with you, after that I want to talk, but it happened that I was not alone, but there was no one to talk to. But whoever seeks will always find, I judge by myself.))
                        "Who is used to fighting for victory,
                        Let her sing with us:
                        Who is cheerful - he laughs
                        Who wants - he will achieve
                        Who seeks will always find! "(With)
  4. vladcub
    vladcub 5 February 2022 06: 44
    +6
    Q. Oh, thank you for your work. There is a lot to read and discuss.
    Now I'll take care of Trenter: "man and revolver"
  5. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 February 2022 07: 00
    +11
    On the other hand, many weapons were captured by Russian troops as a result of battles won.

    Alas, how sad it was and was lost. For example, I personally learned about the presence of swords in our reiters from the list of trophies of the Commonwealth that defeated our army near Smolensk in the 30s of the 17th century.
    There were other quirks of history as well. For example, King Charles XII of Sweden gave his "cousin" Peter I a fleet of 3 and 3 1/2 pound field artillery. Without batting an eyelid, ours, having changed the gun carriages of half of the guns and poured onto the new most unusable of them, “used them for their intended purpose” against the former owners.
    The fate of the trophies is also interesting. For example, the Poles demanded from the young Soviet state almost all the captured guns from the Kremlin's arsenal that the Commonwealth had lost during all the wars. Yes, the cannons gave away the timpani and the keys to Warsaw handed over by the honorable pans to Suvorov during the surrender.
  6. Catfish
    Catfish 5 February 2022 07: 22
    +10
    ... it was, oddly enough, a well-established own production of ... artillery pieces.

    Yes, we knew how to make guns! good


    Wedge gate, and at that time - do not stand up to die!

    Pishchal with a "twisted" barrel. Bronze. Foundry master Yakov Osipov. 1671

    Pishchal "King Achilles". Bronze. Foundry master A. Chokhov. 1617

    Andrey Chokhov. Pishchal "Wolf", pishchal "Porcupine". 16th century
    There are many more interesting guns, but you will be exhausted to lay out everything here. smile
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 5 February 2022 09: 02
      +9
      Good morning Konstantin!
      But they did it according to a "personal project"!
      Variation in weight and calibers.
      Minimum unification.
      Not in-line production!
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 5 February 2022 09: 18
        +11
        Good morning, Aleksey!
        Not in-line production!

        But a work of art, besides lethal. smile

        Look at this - it's already scary. belay
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 5 February 2022 09: 34
          +10
          It's scary, it's scary.
          And how much time did it take to produce this work of metallurgical art?
          And the enemy recaptured all the guns and how to quickly replace them?
          Nothing. Blacksmith-artists "forge iron roses", instead of a simple Scrap (against which there is no reception)!
          And they lived with a similar attitude towards their own industry and the military-industrial complex until the 20th century.
          To create an exhibit for the museum - ds easily!
          To produce an American revolver in the amount of 10000 - there are no people, no machines, NO materials!
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 5 February 2022 10: 00
            +5
            And how much time did it take to produce this work of metallurgical art?

            But the question of the prestige of the princely Court was resolved - we have such a cannon, but you do not. request
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 February 2022 10: 38
            +8
            To create an exhibit for the museum - ds easily!

            Scolding your native Palestinians, you need to remember that the handy Svei did not succeed either. In the comment I mentioned, it is not in vain that the caliber of Swedish guns is indicated from 3 to 3,5 pounds. The spread of the caliber was up to 10%.
            Understanding of unification came later - during the 30 years of the war. The first to come to this were the French (Vauban). We also began to reduce the number of calibers under Peter. The idea finally took shape during the years of Shuvalov, and was realized by Anosov and Arkachev. By the way, with regards to artillery, until the 19th century, we were always in trend both in material terms and in organization.
            1. hohol95
              hohol95 5 February 2022 11: 35
              +6
              In terms of artillery, I agree with you.
              All the people you listed contributed to the qualitative and quantitative strengthening of domestic artillery!
              They were able to organize their mass production.
              And only the industrial revolution in the countries of Europe again threw our artillery into the position of catching up!
              OFS projectile for the "three-inch" could not be created before WWI!
              But with regards to small arms, the problems reached the 20th century.
              To decorate a single trunk with chasing and stones is easier than a steamed turnip!
              And there is no one to compete in the development of new models and mechanisms in small arms ... Or is this creativity not necessary for the highest power!
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 February 2022 13: 50
                +8
                Quote: hohol95

                And there is no one to compete in the development of new models and mechanisms in small arms ... Or is this creativity not necessary for the highest power!

                The truth is somewhere in the middle!
                For example, the domestic "unicorn". In terms of the totality of combat characteristics, he was ahead of many European countries. And after a century and a half - chasing the French with a three-inch gun, we left ourselves without howitzer artillery in principle.
                Scold the shooter? But twist, don't twist our most recognizable machine gun "AK"!
                1. hohol95
                  hohol95 5 February 2022 14: 07
                  +9
                  Cool, don't twist, but "Maxim" was not designed by Russian!
                  And "Nagan", "berdanks", "lids" ...
                  The cavalry pike before WWI was "slammed" by the Germans !!!
                  AK is a Soviet weapons school - our "weapons Juche"!
                  DP-27, PPD / PPSh / PPS, AVS-36 / SVT-38/40, SKS-45, ShVAK and UB, DShK and so on.
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 5 February 2022 14: 45
                    +8
                    AK is a Soviet weapons school - our "weapons Juche"!


                    What are you, in kind, but how is Guga Schmeiser?!!!! am
                    1. hohol95
                      hohol95 5 February 2022 15: 28
                      +7
                      Let Goga smoke on the sidelines, clutching patents for his "inventions" in his hand!
                      He is an excellent gunsmith! But the master is German!!!
                      Like Volmer Hanno.
                      1. Catfish
                        Catfish 5 February 2022 16: 26
                        +5
                        Well, the Gogin adherents will minus you,laughing
                        Volmer Hanno.

                        And he seems to be Heinrich - Heinrich Vollmer.
                      2. hohol95
                        hohol95 5 February 2022 16: 33
                        +5
                        recourse crying wrong...
                        Forgive me Heinrich Vollmer!
                      3. Catfish
                        Catfish 5 February 2022 16: 38
                        +4
                        I think for him this is a trifle, and so famous is cooler than many. smile
                      4. hohol95
                        hohol95 5 February 2022 16: 37
                        +5
                        That the adherents of "GoGi", that "Scientologists" are intimidating to the point of horror ...
                        A minus times a minus is a plus!
                        drinks
                      5. Catfish
                        Catfish 5 February 2022 17: 27
                        +5
                        A minus times a minus is a plus!

                        Our hamsters are not friends with mathematics. request Honorary high school students. laughing
  7. Olgovich
    Olgovich 5 February 2022 07: 59
    +1
    Russian Reiter and Hussar cavalry were armed with the most first-class weapons for that time

    The main thing is that there was enough money for this.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 February 2022 08: 51
      +15
      Not a fig Olegovich was missing! In fact, the domestic military machine of the 17th century lived on "credit". Only the creditors were not bankers, but "community" and "servicemen". The first were ripped off like sticky, the second for years they did not pay the “legal”! Hence the developed institutions of "bribery", "theft" and "feeding"! However, this applied to everyone and everything, and not just ours!
      By the way, in addition to regular and irregular military formations, along with the archers, regiments of the new and foreign system, local cavalry and gunners, the service was pulled by the "drawing army"! Looking and arguing about today's weapon beauty, we tritely forget the auxiliary army for requisition, in bast shoes with hoes and shovels !!!
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 5 February 2022 10: 27
        +1
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        Not a fig Olegovich was missing!

        So they are always missing all and, as you quite rightly noted
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        m it concerned everyone and everything, and not only our!
        .

        But at the same time, Russia bought first-class weapons, and some, at the same level of extortion, did not.
  8. ee2100
    ee2100 5 February 2022 09: 49
    +9
    I read a critical article about Shpakovsky's "our everything".
    Those who wish can take a look.
    "Sometimes it's better to remain silent than to speak.
    I came across here the other day on a new essay in the "Military Review" about the archers of the notorious V. Shpakovsky: "Caftans on the shelves: the multi-colored archery army of pre-Petrine Russia."

    https://topwar.ru/190617-kaftany-p…

    The article is brand new, dated January 5, 2022, but written as if it were 1991. Thirty years ago, such creativity was quite suitable for itself, but over the past decades, our historical science (and popular science literature) has advanced so far in the study of the archery topic that giving readers such a thing, to put it mildly, is the same as studying history at school Russia according to Synopsis.
    Has the author really not read anything new for 30 years on archers, if he repeats all the frank mistakes, wild delusions and annoying mistakes of those distant years?
    One can recall at least the books of M. Romanov about Moscow archers.
    And if you haven’t read it, why write, again exposing yourself as an amateur in this matter?
    I understand everything: venerable age, laziness, unwillingness to delve deeply into the topic ...
    But then it might be better to remain silent than to write such funny texts for the Military Review?

    We quote V. Shpakovsky:

    “Moreover, fortunately for VO readers, the “streltsy theme” turned out to be not a passing one for me, but rather “long-playing”. It all started with the fact that in 1991 in the renewed Russia the first issue of the military-historical magazine Zeikhgauz was published, and it contained an article by Roberto Palacios-Fernandez “Moscow Streltsy”, for which he himself also drew beautiful illustrations.

    “Long-playing”, apparently, this topic has become like that vinyl record that has stuck in one place (my generation remembers this). So since 1991 he has been playing the same hackneyed “melody”.

    “At that time I didn’t even dream of writing about something like that, except maybe about tanks, which I had been working on for 11 years by that time, but then I thought that we also had archers in Penza, and why shouldn’t I do not write about them on the basis of documents, let alone use Roberto's drawings for ... redrawing.

    It would be better if V. Shpakovsky continued to write about tanks and did not touch the archers. Moreover, there were no Moscow archers in Penza. And they don’t write anything about the Penza people. I don’t know how R. Palacios-Fernandez reacted to such “redrawings” of archers in Osprey, but everyone saw them as obvious plagiarism. On the basis of "documents" it is too loud, considering that the author does not cite anything other than a quotation from Fletcher.

    "Palmqvist also writes that there were 14 streltsy regiments in Moscow, named after their commanders, gives their numbers and the whole color scheme of their uniforms."

    Palmquist does not write that there were 14 Streltsy orders in Moscow. He writes about 26 orders, 14 of which were serving in Moscow at that time, the rest were temporarily in other cities.

    “The regiments were commanded by“ archery heads ”(thousands), half-heads (five hundred), centurions and sergeants (Pentecostals and tenants). The heads were often boyars and princes. The rest of the children of the boyars and nobles in the officers came out of the archers themselves.

    Boyars and princes have never been in their heads, for them this is too low a position. And boyar children and nobles never served in ordinary archers, this is the lot of commoners. Just the nobles and boyar children were the heads and centurions.

    “2nd - regiment of Ivan Fedorovich Poltev - 1000 people. Chapygin is constantly called white-caftans, that is, they wore caftans made of white cloth. But in the above illustration, they have a different color, rather blue.

    A reference to a work of art (Chapygin's novel), which, of course, is cool. But what is interesting is that in this case Chapygin is right. The writer studied the topic better than the historian Shpakovsky. The second order wore white caftans, not the blue ones mistakenly drawn by R. Palacios-Fernandez.

    “4th - Regiment of Fyodor Ivanovich Golovlinsky - 800 people. The color of the caftans is crimson, just like in the 11th regiment of Davyd Grigoryevich Vorontsov, numbering 600 people.

    How much can you distort the names of unfortunate heads? Okay, Palmquist was Swedish, couldn't pronounce and spell them correctly. But now even those who are not experts in this matter know that it is not “Golovinsky” - Golovlenkov; not "Vorontsov" - Barancheev.

    “Finally, the 13th regiment of Lagovskin (600 people) had the same caftans as in the 9th and 12th regiments, but differed in green cloth of caps and lining.”

    Similarly, the surname is distorted. The commander of the 13th order was Dmitry Lagovchin. As for the name of the colors, the exact names of each color have long been published based on documentary materials of that era.

    “... the archers were armed with a matchlock musket and a reed - a moon-shaped ax on a long shaft, which could be worn on a belt behind the back. It was used as a musket holder, and as a security weapon in cities.

    And finally, now only a lazy historian does not write that the berdysh was not used instead of a stand. There is no source to support this XNUMXth-century misconception.

    Why am I writing all this? Yes, we have already got such unfortunate writers who continue to tell fairy tales based on long-decayed works of the last century. Are we all historians doomed to fight for the truth in vain?

    Original: https://von-buddenbrock.livejournal.com/70323.html
    1. Ingvar K
      Ingvar K 5 February 2022 13: 07
      +3
      You can, in a nutshell, about the use of a reed and a musket by archers. I would like to hear a competent opinion. And the second question, if the regiment commander died, what happened to the name of the regiment, did it remain?
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 February 2022 14: 03
        +9
        Quote: Ingvar K
        You can, in a nutshell, about the use of a reed and a musket by archers. I would like to hear a competent opinion. And the second question, if the regiment commander died, what happened to the name of the regiment, did it remain?

        I apologize for interfering in the discussion, but I had experience firing a matchlock gun from a reed. It’s more convenient from a “flyer”, but controlling an 8 kg gun on weight is much more difficult than from a reed. However, the size fits well. By the way, why then does the berdysh have a bushing at the opposite end?
        Now on orders! With the change of the archer's head (colonel), the name of the order (regiment) also changed!
        1. Ingvar K
          Ingvar K 6 February 2022 10: 32
          +1
          Thank you for your competent comment. All the same, the reed served as an emphasis for shooting. I wonder how all this "economy" was dragged across the battlefield and where did they put the squeaker during hand-to-hand combat - were they thrown to the ground or hung on their backs?
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 6 February 2022 14: 51
            +2
            Berdysh and squeaker had straps for carrying behind the back.
    2. LisKat2
      LisKat2 5 February 2022 14: 11
      +3
      ee2100, I like the work of Vyacheslav Olegovich, but I like your comment: the arguments are well chosen. Are you by any chance a literary observer by profession?
      1. kalibr
        5 February 2022 16: 53
        +4
        [quote=LisKat2]LisKat2 (Ekaterina Lisina)
        It’s just that, Ekaterina, Alexander is addicted to the scoop, and I “poured mud” on him, and once again treated him rudely. Well, now a person is “fighting” with me in this way, He doesn’t understand that in this way he makes an advertisement for me, that the best advertisement is a scandal. It already happened: in 2004 Rodina magazine tried to accuse me of plagiarism, and they even wrote a letter to the Osprey publishing house in England. And how did it end? Everyone laughed at them. In England, after that, I published 2 books, and in Russia, everything that was published at that time was sold out with a whistle, and had to be republished. But I want, you know, Ekaterina, I want to feel my own self, and that people will listen to you, and it will be bad for another. But only to the other, on the contrary, this is only good. Such are the features of the laws of dissemination of information in the modern era.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 5 February 2022 17: 41
          +5
          Simply, Vyacheslav Olegovich, you publicly insulted a person and not the first one.
          1. kalibr
            5 February 2022 18: 11
            +2
            You see, Anton, I'm not so young and just tired of being polite to stupid people. And usually I'm polite to them at first. You cannot deny it. Patient, even this you cannot deny. But if a person ... excuse me, persists in his stupidity, listens only to himself, but writes. Excuse me, why can't I write what I see, but I see, speaking in worldly terms, a fool. And so I write that ... I see. And there let him be offended as much as you like. Do you see what he wrote? Does this suit you in terms of knowledge and common sense? So, Anton, alas, but he is not the first and not the last. I'm not going to change for the sake of... well, I see. And vice versa, if a person does not know something, he recognizes the right of others to their own opinion and does not hang labels. I'm always very polite with them. And advise Alexander, since you are on good terms with him. Write. Write more. Develop, improve. And don't pout like a mouse on grits. This will get him nowhere. I wrote to Catherine above that this only gives the opposite result. This is written about in special textbooks on online journalism. Just like in advertising books.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 5 February 2022 18: 41
              +4
              The fact is, Vyacheslav Olegovich, that you, with your "arrogance", staged a "negative clickbait remursu.
              1. kalibr
                5 February 2022 19: 24
                +2
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                The fact is, Vyacheslav Olegovich, that you, with your "arrogance", staged a "negative clickbait remursu.

                Oh really? Based on the number of views, it's the other way around. Something was not said about this at the last debriefing. And you can’t throw a scarf over every chatty mouth!
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 5 February 2022 19: 33
                  +6
                  And there is. I think in the future, in the assessment of the resource, its "friendliness" will rule. "Military Review" is no different.
                  1. kalibr
                    5 February 2022 19: 41
                    +3
                    Quote: 3x3zsave
                    "Military Review" is no different.

                    And I think it's just different. And great tolerance and patience. And the number of views does not fall ... so I do not agree with you here. And the fact that someone somewhere wrote something ... Ho! "According to rumors, he hanged himself!" here is the level of this criticism. Rumor has it! Only very stupid people can write like that.
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 5 February 2022 19: 58
                      +5
                      Vyacheslav Olegovich, you will excuse me, but you do not see people behind the symbols of the binary code.
                      1. kalibr
                        5 February 2022 20: 46
                        +2
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        Vyacheslav Olegovich, you will excuse me, but you do not see people behind the symbols of the binary code.

                        Too many of them. Right now, for example, 7395. Faces blur into something amorphous. Although some I see quite distinctly. Here you are, for example.
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 5 February 2022 21: 07
                        +5
                        I hardly. I, that suspicious, mercantile, misanthropic, suspicious bastard.
                        I also use words that begin with one letter not only on one page, but in one sentence! The nightmare of Russian literature!
                      3. Liam
                        Liam 5 February 2022 21: 56
                        0
                        A smart boor is much preferable to a polite ignoramus)

                        Moreover, the Persian in question is distinguished by rather aggressive ignorance
                        hi
                      4. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 5 February 2022 22: 06
                        +5
                        Good evening!
                        Let me remind you about my beloved: I organically do not digest holivar.
                      5. kalibr
                        6 February 2022 05: 37
                        +1
                        Quote: Liam
                        A smart boor is much preferable to a polite ignoramus)

                        Moreover, the Persian in question is distinguished by rather aggressive ignorance

                        ++++++++++++++++++++++
      2. ee2100
        ee2100 5 February 2022 18: 22
        0
        Ekaterina!
        I cited an article from LiveJournal by Igor Babulin, a historian who studies the specific period of the end of the Middle Ages - the beginning of the New Age (XVI-XVII centuries).
        You can read his articles in LiveJournal, the link is at the bottom of the commentary, as well as his history books.
        A serious historian, not like Shpakovsky.
        Naturally, he is offended when the so-called. historians write such texts.
        Hence his:
        "Yes, we've already got such unfortunate writers who continue to tell fairy tales based on long-decayed works of the last century. Are all of us historians doomed to fight for the truth in vain?"
        1. kalibr
          5 February 2022 19: 19
          +1
          Quote: ee2100
          Serious Historian

          Why doesn’t he write so serious on VO? He will be honored and benefited. But I read the comments there. One writes that he left VO because of Shpakovsky 10 years ago. But... it's 2012. Then I was not yet at VO. In the same place - his dissertation on the party organization of the plant. Why write if you don't know? Doctoral - catagol Osprey. It is based on historiography, hence the books of this publishing house. And so it is at every turn. This is a non-serious attitude. Serious is when a person is accurate even in small things or directly writes, I don’t know. Or indicates where it came from. That is, this "serious historian" of yours, Alexander, and his company also ... have their own serious problems. They sit in their LiveJournal and know everything better than anyone. And that doesn't happen. Therefore, there is only one way out: write to us. And it will be better for you than if you do not write to us!
    3. kalibr
      5 February 2022 16: 23
      +2
      Quote: ee2100
      there were no Moscow archers in Penza.

      And where did they come from? From a moth? They sent swords to Yuri Kotransky from Moscow, kindyaks for ensigns from Moscow, but where did they send people from? And where is Yuri from?
    4. kalibr
      5 February 2022 16: 33
      +2
      Quote: ee2100
      Why am I writing all this? 

      That's it? Why, when everything is indicated in the article, what was taken from whom, what was from Chapygin, what was from Pallacios, but for sure .. but who knows who exactly made a mistake, it is impossible to check. There is no need to look for absolute truths in popular articles, this is a stupid and thankless task. Write your own, smart, 100% reliable, and then, from the top, so to speak, of the success achieved, you will be able to convince at least someone that you are right. Until it looks. Especially since you yourself write nonsense: but everyone saw them as obvious plagiarism. Who is everyone? And what did they see? You don't even know what plagiarism is, but write... And you can't see something that doesn't really exist. Your opinion doesn't count here. You do not know. Already Rodina magazine tried to hook me on plagiarism, it’s not like you and ... nothing happened! So, Alexander, you are engaged in a frivolous business. Better write your own articles... There will be more benefits!
    5. kalibr
      5 February 2022 16: 56
      +2
      Quote: ee2100
      Are we all historians doomed to fight for the truth in vain?

      Are you talking about yourself? Don't make people laugh.
    6. kalibr
      5 February 2022 18: 33
      +1
      Quote: ee2100
      based on documentary materials of that era.

      What is it? If only you could call it... Documentaries!!!
  9. LisKat2
    LisKat2 5 February 2022 10: 19
    +4
    I wish you all good health. "Andrei Shepelev, boyar voivode" was interested in this signature: not all drawings have their own prototypes. In this case: 2 "" governor of the local cinnamon" - Sheinin?
  10. Oleg Kolsky
    Oleg Kolsky 5 February 2022 11: 21
    +2
    I wonder why wheeled muskets have such uncomfortable strange butts? And the recoil when firing from muskets is not weak in itself, but with such butts, goodbye housekeeper.
    And what kind of dragoons in the 1630s if they appeared only under Louis XlV?
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 5 February 2022 11: 43
      +5
      Marshal Brissac put the infantry on horseback and called these units "dragoons".
      1550-1560 years old!
      But those dragoons went into battle on foot. The horse was the fighter's means of delivery to the battlefield!
      1. Oleg Kolsky
        Oleg Kolsky 5 February 2022 14: 12
        +2
        Horse arquebusiers abruptly became dragoons? The fact that the infantry was mounted on horses at all times, as needed, is not a secret, but the appearance of dragoons as a permanent branch of the army.
    2. kalibr
      5 February 2022 16: 37
      +3
      Quote: Oleg Kolsky
      And what kind of dragoons in the 1630s if they appeared only under Louis XlV?

      I don’t know what and, frankly, I don’t want to know. Source specified? Specified! That is, you can read further on your own and delve into the topic as much as you like!
    3. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 5 February 2022 18: 59
      +4
      Quote: Oleg Kolsky
      And what kind of dragoons in the 1630s if they appeared only under Louis XlV?

      I won’t say anything about Louis, but in 1632 they appeared even in Russia.
  11. seti
    seti 5 February 2022 11: 53
    +3
    Great article. Really learned a lot.
  12. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 5 February 2022 11: 53
    +7
    But many of the same and high-quality weapons were beyond our production to produce.
    The situation repeated itself in the 70s of the twentieth century, when an American air-to-air missile with excellent characteristics hit us, and we could not repeat the steering machine in mass production. That is, some Ivan Ivanovich with the help of a hammer and a needle file - he could, but in the series it did not work. Then they remembered about the lattice wings, from the end of the 50s, calculated and studied at the VVIA them. Zhukovsky by professors Nisht and S.M. Belotserkovsky. (The brother of S.M. Belotserkovsky, Oleg Mikhailovich at that time was the rector of the Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology, considered gas dynamics to be the method of particles in cells). Since the late 60s, lattice wings have been used on the Soyuz rescue systems, as well as on the OTR developed by the designer Nadiradze. The use of lattice wings on our K77M rocket made it possible to surpass the American analogue. During the Gulf War, this missile was used 8 times, resulting in 4 hits on targets. A very good result.
    1. kalibr
      5 February 2022 16: 40
      +4
      Dear Sergey! Write about it! After all, an interesting fact, an example for the "Weapon" is just that. At the same time and relax on the change of activity!
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 5 February 2022 17: 04
        +5
        Maybe I'll write. Need a mood. The head of the missile department told me about this 20 years ago. Then he died, and the department was "optimized". Tolik Gubanov, whose term in Lefortovo went to the second year, worked in this department. There was still no trial.
        1. kalibr
          5 February 2022 18: 23
          +3
          Quote: Aviator_
          Maybe I'll write. Need a mood.

          Sergey, what mood are you talking about. Look - you mentioned about Yakovlev that his book caused displeasure with Khrushch Kukuruzny, and I curtailed all other works and "tune in" to this material. It is clear that you work and there are plenty of other things to do and it is incorrect to compare your employment and mine. But it's interesting!!! Both to you and to others. Let's! Writing about what you know well is always a pleasure.
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 5 February 2022 18: 34
            +5
            Writing about what you know well is always a pleasure.

            Pleasure is pleasure, but the scope of the presentation is severely limited by secrecy. There are a lot of free cameras in Lefortovo.
            1. kalibr
              5 February 2022 18: 38
              +3
              Quote: Aviator_
              There are a lot of free cameras in Lefortovo.

              I am not here to advise you. You know the topic of what is possible and what is not. It's just that I always feel sorry for when a smart person can write about something, but ... does not write. Obviously there are different reasons. Bit I'd like.
              1. Aviator_
                Aviator_ 5 February 2022 18: 39
                +4
                Okay, I'll try. About this episode - I'm not sure, the source is no longer there, maybe I'll write about something else.
    2. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 5 February 2022 19: 42
      -1
      Quote: Aviator_
      but to repeat in mass production the steering machine which we could not. That is, some Ivan Ivanovich with the help of a hammer and a needle file - he could, but in the series it did not work.
      Oh what fairy tales!) Oh what storytellers! Doesn't this story sound funny to you? Didn't think? This was not the Great Patriotic War. Missiles by the millions were not required. And a couple of thousand could well be cut off by the conditional Ivan Ivanovich, even if not in a couple of weeks. Moreover, one could find hundreds of such Ivan Ivanovichs in Russia, this was not a problem at all then. The one who told you this, simply lied like a gray gelding.
      Most likely, no Ivan Ivanovich could repeat the mechanism for the reason that it was controlled by a processor. There is a topic on this subject, about shameful attempts to steal such a processor. Nothing really came out ... And the control device turned out to be too big. And if it was possible to drive it into a rocket in terms of dimensions, then it did not drag in terms of accuracy and speed of steering control, which is a simple plate. But if seven doors have closed before you, then open ten more! Much more advanced rudders were used, which made it possible to compensate for a more primitive control unit. Only and everything. There is nothing secret here
  13. Undecim
    Undecim 5 February 2022 12: 15
    +7
    Another reason why we then had to buy small arms in Europe was, oddly enough, our own well-established production of ... artillery pieces. Despite the lack of iron, we had a lot of guns made, both bronze - we note that bronze casting in Russia was a very ancient art - and "iron", that is, cast iron.

    The production of artillery pieces and the production of small arms in relation to the period under review are not related at all in terms of the use of metal.
    The guns at that time were mainly cast from gun bronze, less often from cast iron, especially since the widespread use of cast iron for casting cannons in Russia began in the XNUMXth century.
    And small arms were made from "hand iron", with the quantity and quality of which there were problems and which had to be purchased.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 February 2022 14: 11
      +5

      The production of artillery pieces and the production of small arms in relation to the period under review are not related at all in terms of the use of metal.

      Well, why by the end of the 17th century cast-iron cannons had already begun to appear!
      The question is different. Mass industrial production. At the suggestion of Peter, we received our “hardware”, but how effective the same Ural factories with serf workers were is debatable!
      1. CHEREDA73
        CHEREDA73 5 February 2022 15: 29
        +6
        Hello Vladislav!
        how effective were the same Ural factories with serf workers - debatable!

        Probably still effective. From the time of Peter the Great to the end of the 18th century, the production of cast iron increased more than tenfold. Yes, and in our realities it was impossible otherwise, the people would have fled.
        It was easier for Great Britain, freedom was limited in a natural way, you can’t run far from the island. hi
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 5 February 2022 18: 09
          +6
          It was easier for Great Britain, freedom was limited in a natural way, you can’t run far from the island.
          Come on, Eugene!
          Thousands fled, even the ocean did not stop. The Mayflower has led the way.
          I would run away too. To Mars, for example... Unfortunately, humanity has lost its frontier...
          1. CHEREDA73
            CHEREDA73 5 February 2022 18: 16
            +4
            Hello Anton. I've been thinking about choleric people all morning smile
            The fact that they fled is understandable. North America was populated by white people from somewhere good
            But, some kind of boat is needed, things to collect on a long journey, to save money for the first time ... Difficult, enough.
            Whether business at us. Especially in places where state power is not so very ... Run - I don’t want to wink
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 5 February 2022 18: 57
              +3
              And you, Eugene, do not think about choleric people. We are already old enough to talk about four psychotypes.
              1. CHEREDA73
                CHEREDA73 5 February 2022 19: 01
                +4
                Everything is relative, Anton. Although they call me "Uncle Zhenya" at work, for many members of the forum our summers with you are so ... boys, one word wassat
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 5 February 2022 19: 14
                  +3
                  Of course, Eugene!
                  While we pay attention to the legs in a short skirt and understand why we do it, we are still young!
                  "Uncle" allowed himself to be called only by grand-nephews.
                  1. CHEREDA73
                    CHEREDA73 5 February 2022 19: 19
                    +4
                    They don't ask me...
                    Yes, and how else? You start telling young people about the past of the early 2000s, they look at you, as if a story from the 18th century. fellow
                    And patronymics are somehow not in use with us. Any boss, even the top one, only by name.
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 5 February 2022 19: 27
                      +4
                      And you have to ask! Initially. You see people, well, you need to graduate them according to the degree of trust.
                      1. CHEREDA73
                        CHEREDA73 5 February 2022 19: 40
                        +4
                        I have a good team at work, Anton. You can’t just get into our sphere from the street, everyone is trusted. hi
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 5 February 2022 19: 50
                        +3
                        Ok, Eugene, sorry!
        2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 February 2022 20: 53
          +5
          Good evening Eugene!
          I personally am a gamayun - a descendant of the Ural workers assigned to the plant.
          My ancestors after buying them N.N. Demidovs in the 40s of the 18th century, they rebelled for almost ten years. And then during the Pugachev region, already in the Urals, they refused to support the latter. For which his colonel Belobrodov endowed the Sergians with "goats" in the blast furnaces and burned down the churches. I also found old people who commemorated Pugachev "hell". And for the goats, not the church!!!
          Now about efficiency. In the sovereign's sense, factories produced metal in commercial quantities. On the other hand, at what cost? It must be admitted that the classical economic model on the stone belt did not work. During the 17th century, three metallurgical plants were bent. Even the Dolmatovsky iron-working plant at the monastery (with a mixed system of conscription of the monastic peasants) was bent.
          The impetus was given by the Northern War. Which gave birth to the state and private system of forced labor. If the purity of the Gulag nervously smokes aside. At the same time, “this nightmare” gave birth to a subculture that did not believe not in God, not the devil, but in a blast furnace nurse.
          1. CHEREDA73
            CHEREDA73 5 February 2022 21: 21
            +2
            About the formation of the Ural factories in the 18th century, about the Demidovs, I read only fiction. Even from it it is clear that the life of assigned workers was terrible.
            In general, I know little about the Urals. I know Grigory Rechkalov (from books, of course), a famous ace, your countryman. hi
            I also know that putting a "goat" in a blast furnace means, in fact, the destruction of the blast furnace.
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 6 February 2022 06: 39
              +1
              I know Grigory Rechkalov (from books, of course), a famous ace, your countryman.

              If about my small homeland and aviation. The most famous native of Seryoga is the designer of aircraft engines Shvetsov. Of the pilots, the hero of the Soviet Union Titov.
              Thanks for the kind words.
      2. Undecim
        Undecim 5 February 2022 16: 16
        +3
        Well, why by the end of the 17th century cast-iron cannons had already begun to appear!

        They began to appear. True, the issue of the quality of these guns could not be resolved even in the XNUMXth century. But I meant that the production of cast iron did not affect the production of small arms in the period under review. At that time in Russia they did not know how to get steel from cast iron.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 February 2022 21: 04
          +2
          But I meant that the production of cast iron did not affect the production of small arms in the period under review.

          There is only one source material - iron ore.
          On small arms. In the third quarter of the 17th century. Russian gunsmiths, following the Swedes, began to weld gun barrels end-to-end, and not overlap as before.
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 5 February 2022 21: 33
            +3
            There is only one source material - iron ore.

            And what, was there a shortage of iron ore?
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 6 February 2022 06: 20
              0
              Quote: Undecim
              There is only one source material - iron ore.

              And what, was there a shortage of iron ore?

              Apparently it was if they bought "raw" iron from the Sveevs. Then they began to develop iron deposits in the Stone Belt.
              1. Undecim
                Undecim 6 February 2022 10: 58
                0
                Apparently it was if they bought "raw" iron from Sveev

                There was no shortage of ore. There was a lack of metallurgical industry and technology.
                It was not "raw iron" that was bought from the "sveevs", but steel obtained by fristing cast iron.
      3. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 5 February 2022 16: 47
        +5
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        Well, why by the end of the 17th century cast-iron cannons had already begun to appear!

        A little earlier, namely from 1637, when Vinnius and Marselis set up the first manufactory in Tula.
  14. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 5 February 2022 13: 03
    +1
    3 - an ordinary gunner in everyday attire.
    Didn't read. I just couldn't. This is a gunner in "everyday" (read in combat) attire?!)) Is he loading a cannon with such hands, in a split front sleeve?! And in this caftan with the floor to the ground, and again with these sleeves, stashed away from the thoughtful veteran-boyar, he runs from the fire with a red-hot rod to set fire to a charge?! Ugh, damn...
    1. kalibr
      5 February 2022 16: 45
      +4
      Didn't you notice, Mikhail, that it was fashionable to dress for war as for a holiday? But what about the sleeves, really ... But I don’t know where it comes from. That is, I was not responsible for all the drawings in this book. They asked me for photos of chest discs, reeds, cannons, sabers, but I did not see the sketches. For some reason they didn't send it.
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 5 February 2022 19: 22
        0
        You are funny) I don't mean to offend, really. It's just that you are so far from reality that it is difficult to accept you as a living person. War is a place where people get killed. They take away life. Clap and you're dead. The impression is that you fail to understand what I am writing about. In a sense, this is a serious anomaly. Usually children lose their sense of their own immortality at the age of 12.
        You see, the gunner is constantly next to the guns, and there is gunpowder in different packages. Here is a man in this idiotic dress coming up to a camping forge, where igniters are burning - such iron rods with a spike. This spike, red-hot, is poked into the ignition hole of the cannon, and this causes a shot. The igniter is long and heavy, it is thrown away when fired, but usually it is possible to hold it, inertia allows.
        Do you understand what will happen if he steps on the floor of the caftan? If the caftan catches fire from the forge? What if it gets tangled up in the sleeves? What kind of holiday is it here, to hell with it?) It will bang, it will kill the whole outfit, it will smash the cannon to all the pagan gods ...
        Welt sleeves and the dress of a duma boyar were worn by a few people in Russia, and such an outfit also had a strictly utilitarian function. Since you are hovering somewhere near real life, without touching its despicable matter, you are unlikely to be able to understand it) Communicating with you is even somehow creepy. Maybe you are an alien curator of our primitive civilization?) Excuse me. I shouldn't go in so often. Well, sometimes you just can't help it.
        1. kalibr
          5 February 2022 20: 57
          +1
          Quote: Mikhail3
          Sorry. I shouldn't go in so often.

          On the contrary, Michael This is exactly how you need to get in. You are well done! But ... look: the article contains drawings of a person who saw such people. Let us suppose that such attire is harmful to the gunner. But isn't it less harmful to the archer? A cloth caftan can catch fire from a wick, climbing uphill on the floor you can step on and fall, and even climbing a wall is completely inconvenient. But ... they climbed and served in caftans. Long. And they ran with burning wicks, horns with gunpowder, berendeykas ... Did you have to find an image of a gunner? Palmquist doesn't seem to have one. But we need to see if anyone else has descriptions ... We cannot project our current logic onto that time. Does this answer suit you?
          1. kalibr
            5 February 2022 21: 05
            +1
            Here's another, see for yourself: Lagarde A. Russian gunners of the Moscow state. There is on the Internet. And there are pictures. Dial "Gunners of pre-Petrine Russia". Including our well-known artists.
          2. depressant
            depressant 5 February 2022 21: 10
            0
            Oh come on!
            I remember that on one miniature for an article about the Ottomans, artillerymen were depicted in floor-length robes, with sleeves so long that the hands were not visible, and even on their heads - giant turbans. That's when I got angry! wassat )))
          3. Liam
            Liam 5 February 2022 21: 51
            +1
            Quote: kalibr
            But we need to see if anyone else has descriptions ...


            There is a lot about Moscow gunners of the 17th century and their attire and other paraphernalia. And there are many links to sources.
            https://swordmaster.org/2010/12/02/moskovskie-pushkari.html
            https://swordmaster.org/2014/07/08/pushkarskie-alamy-xvii-veka.html
  15. bk0010
    bk0010 5 February 2022 13: 05
    +5
    Here - he killed one of these and received both a sword and a musket!
    The Chukchi looks around:
    Deer! Meat, skin, horns.
    Walrus! Meat, fat, hide, tooth.
    Geologist! Salt, matches, cartridges.

    Naturally, a noble, not some seedy nobleman from near Tula.
    Is this a pebble in Lantsov's garden (the cycle "Landlord")?
    1. Bolt cutter
      Bolt cutter 5 February 2022 15: 26
      +1
      Geologist! Salt, matches, cartridges.
      They forgot the most important thing - ALCOHOL!
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 5 February 2022 18: 12
        +4
        Post-apocalyptic law: water, food and ammo.
        1. Bolt cutter
          Bolt cutter 5 February 2022 18: 22
          +2
          As the practice of extreme survival (prison, war) shows, psychoactive chemicals have a priority - antistress wassat .
  16. Ingvar K
    Ingvar K 5 February 2022 13: 11
    +2
    An interesting topic, a non-specialist cannot evaluate the quality of the article, but I liked the presentation. Especially the main idea about the production of weapons. It helps to understand the essence of the reforms of Peter 1.
  17. LisKat2
    LisKat2 5 February 2022 13: 53
    +2
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, at the top gun: "Musket with a Hans Fischer wheel lock" butt broken off
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 February 2022 14: 15
      +6
      Quote: LisKat2
      Vyacheslav Olegovich, at the top gun: "Musket with a Hans Fischer wheel lock" butt broken off

      No.
      The modern butt did not appear immediately, but went through a long stage of evolution.
      For example, the first crossbows for shooting were clamped under the arm !!!
  18. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 5 February 2022 16: 50
    +2
    Your will, but this "reiter of 1580" confuses me. Of the armor, only the "bishop's cloak" (chain mail cape), and there too, reiter!
    1. kalibr
      5 February 2022 18: 27
      +2
      Ivan! This is not a study with numerous reservations - D. Nicole thinks so, Thomas Richardson, on the contrary ... but Ian Hitch has a link to ... In principle, it is impossible to read such material. Therefore, look at what is there for yourself. Everything that I found is in front of you, even the pages are indicated. There are images of fully armored raytars, yes there are. But you can’t cram everything into one material!
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 5 February 2022 18: 41
        +3
        So I'm not in the sense of a claim, just a strange set for the end of the XNUMXth century. Okay, in the Thirty Years, the armies grew, there are a lot of people, but on the contrary, there were all sorts of clowns there ...
        1. kalibr
          5 February 2022 19: 11
          +3
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          there were no clowns...

          I don't know, Ivan, honestly. I can not say anything.
        2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 February 2022 20: 57
          +2
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          So I'm not in the sense of a claim, just a strange set for the end of the XNUMXth century. Okay, in the Thirty Years, the armies grew, there are a lot of people, but on the contrary, there were all sorts of clowns there ...

          Aptly noted! The gang is just a detachment of landsknechts from the time of the 30 year war !!!
  19. polpot
    polpot 5 February 2022 17: 25
    +4
    Great article, thanks a lot for your work.
  20. Tests
    Tests 5 February 2022 22: 47
    +1
    Mikhail3 (Mikhail), dear, why didn’t they read it? Signed under the picture: "3 - an ordinary gunner in everyday attire. Images of breast mirrors are made from photographs from the collection of the Artillery Museum in St. Petersburg. Drawing by Angus McBride" Vyacheslav Olegovich should be asked where the drawing came from, the author is indicated. In the figure, September-October, it seems , drawn. The little mermaid in the foreground on the right is dead, from leaf fall, apparently, was born not long ago, on the boots of the gunner - dirt, grass, as if beaten by morning frost. And Angus McBride - he seems to be an artist - he sees it that way ...
    At the same time, you write: "This is a gunner in "everyday" (read in combat) attire ?!)) Is he with such hands, in a front split sleeve, loading a cannon ?! And in this caftan with floors to the ground, and again with sleeves these, stolen from a dubious veteran-boyar, runs from a fire with a red-hot rod to set fire to a charge ?! "Do everyday uniforms mean combat? On urgent duty, I went, like most in the SA, in everyday uniform in a school uniform: cotton, tarpaulin boots, a hat with earflaps and an overcoat. In an overcoat, hooking hooks that were sewn on the floor of the overcoat at the back of the cut, behind the waist belt on the back, in earflaps, boots and two-fingered mittens, he handed over skis to the physio. In the park, in the technical classes, he was in dark gray sliders and a technical jacket with a zigey collar, without buttonholes and shoulder straps. I had a chance to run and crawl around the tactical field in an overcoat and in gray felt boots with galoshes, also in felt boots on guard, and on the overcoat a guard sheepskin coat, ears at earflaps, strictly according to the charter, tied under the chin, in the Trans-Volga steppe it was -28 with a breeze. .. But to drive "Ural-375" in a gas mask in February and March - it's warm in sliders and a technical jacket without a hat ... In the database they issued a dark blue summer technical. Yes, I also had a chance to ride the winter in green quilted cotton pants and a padded jacket, with a stand-up collar, air loops to green plastic buttons (I don’t remember there were 4 or 5), with an adjusting (20 centimeters, approximately) fabric strap and a metal buckle on back, in such our grandfathers fought in the Great Patriotic War, without buttonholes and without shoulder straps. When the frost was not severe, he didn’t wear cotton pants, but it’s warm in the car ... The gunner has cuts with buttons on the side of the caftan, perhaps for the convenience of riding a horse ... It can be assumed that before the battle the gunner took off his caftan and hat, remaining in a linen shirt and a sheepskin vest. Both warm and comfortable, sleeves can be rolled up ... Yes, you can always wind dry bast, tows or sheepskin scraps on the igniter. There will be no need to wait until the igniter in the fire is red-hot - the rate of fire increases ... As far as I remember, in the 17th century, Russian cannons were cooled with water and vinegar ...
  21. Tests
    Tests 5 February 2022 23: 00
    +2
    Sea Cat (Konstantin), respected, and they knew how to make canals and fortresses. It’s worth looking at Solovki, at the Kremlin and temples, at the dam to Bolshaya Muksalma Island from the Big Solovetsky Island only carefully ... This is today: the canals are silted up, hydroelectric power plants of the early 20th century cannot be restored, shit flows by gravity from both sides along the ditches into the bay - There are no treatment facilities. And the Solovki dump is beyond all understanding. The federal budget annually allocates millions for the restoration of the Kremlin, and sewerage and waste disposal are the 22nd century, it seems ... The runway at the airfield was at least put in order. True, there are no doctors on the islands, and if there is no weather, a person will die. To buy and keep a hovercraft on the islands - no, the great managers of the Arkhangelsk region have not heard ...
  22. Illanatol
    Illanatol 8 February 2022 13: 42
    0
    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka

    The question is different. Mass industrial production. At the suggestion of Peter, we received our “hardware”, but how effective the same Ural factories with serf workers were is debatable!


    Bronze tools were considered to be of higher quality and more reliable than cast iron ones.
    The Ural factories were quite effective in terms of production costs. A whip is cheaper than a carrot, especially in our conditions.