"Divisions have a greater offensive potential": in the Polish press - about the refusal of the RF Armed Forces from brigades

Over the past decade, at least 10 divisions of the ground forces have been recreated in Russia, and new formations are being formed. Polish observers drew attention to this process, seeing in it preparation for conducting offensive operations.

The nature of the operations for which the Russian army is preparing has changed, especially in terms of offensive operations. Divisions have more combat potential than brigades, especially when conducting an offensive

- noted in the publication Defense24.

As explained, the rollback of the Serdyukov-Makarov brigade reform occurred gradually. In 2013-2020, 10 divisions were formed as part of the SV: 8 motorized rifle divisions (on infantry fighting vehicles or armored personnel carriers) and two armored (2nd, 3rd, 18th, 19th, 42nd, 127th, 144 -I and 150th and 4th and 90th, respectively). New formations are currently being formed, including the 20th motorized rifle and 47th tank division.

According to the author, the offensive core is represented precisely by divisions. In the Western Military District, these are the 4th Kantemirovskaya TD and the 2nd Tamanskaya Motor Rifle Division (in the 1st Tank Army), the 3rd and 144th MD (in the 20th Combined Arms Army). In the Southern Military District - the 20th Motor Rifle Division and the "extremely strong" (2 tank and 2 motorized rifle regiments) 150th Motor Rifle Division (in the 8th Army), 19th and 42nd Motor Rifle Divisions (in the 58th Army). In the VVO - 127th Motor Rifle Division (in the 5th Army). Freshly baked strike formations receive new and modernized equipment, such as T-72B3, BMP-3, BTR-82A tanks, Coalition-SV self-propelled guns, Tornado-G MLRS, Tor-M2 air defense systems.

At the same time, it is noted that the divisions differ structurally, having in their composition a different number of regiments and tank battalions:

For example, the 150th division is extremely saturated with tanks; it is formally a motorized rifle, de facto armored division with a regular fleet of almost 250 MBTs.

As the author points out, the restoration of about 12 divisions of the ground forces (of which 10 by 2020) indicates a large-scale structural change associated with the gradual abandonment of the brigade level.

The process of creating new formations at the divisional level began in Russia in 2013, but after the annexation of Crimea, it accelerated significantly. This is due to the fact that the Russian army, much more than before, is considering the possibility of participating in a high-intensity conflict. For this type of engagement, the brigade structure is not entirely suitable due to restrictions imposed on it, for example, in terms of deployment time.

- the author believes.

Comments

[SKVichyakow]

And under Serdyukov, they said, who started all the transformations in the RF Armed Forces, that the combat potential of brigades is much more maneuverable than divisions.

[Pereira]

Under Serdyukov, a lot of things were said. For money and at the behest of the authorities, many more things will be said.

[Zoldat_A]

Quote: Pereira

Under Serdyukov, a lot of things were said.

I would rather fix everything that this [obscene] heaped up and forget him like a bad dream.
One thing is not clear - why he does not sit for life in the same cell with a murderer-pedophile or cannibal and, moreover, also in a position with a good, presumably, salary.

[SKVichyakow]

Quote: Zoldat_A

Quote: Pereira

Under Serdyukov, a lot of things were said.

I would rather fix everything that this [obscene] heaped up and forget him like a bad dream.
One thing is not clear - why he does not sit for life in the same cell with a murderer-pedophile or cannibal and, moreover, also in a position with a good, presumably, salary.

Now imagine how much effort, money, nerves were thrown to the wind from those parts, money in the end, from people like Chubais, Serdyukov, Kudrin, etc., who started all this dregs? This is how it was necessary to hate your country and all those living in it?

[Zoldat_A]

Quote: SKVichyakow

Now imagine how much effort, money, nerves were thrown to the wind from those parts, money in the end, from people like Chubais, Serdyukov, Kudrin, etc.

In terms of damage to the country, in my opinion, it is quite comparable with the Great Patriotic War.

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

This is in theory, such as from brigades it is easier to assemble the necessary connections to solve a specific problem. Only now it became unclear who should manage the formation from the brigades, since the brigade commanders lacked experience in interaction between different types of troops and in managing large formations.

Ideally, both divisions and brigades should be left as a reinforcement of divisions if necessary.

[Barberry25]

well, brigades are in fact more maneuverable than divisions but smaller in number, so both brigades and divisions are needed, it’s just that the tasks for the brigades need to be set appropriate

[bk316]

the combat potential of brigades is much more maneuverable than divisions

Well, they probably didn't say that. Offensive potential is one thing, maneuverability is another. And what is combat potential is not clear.
It is obvious that the offensive potential of the division is greater than that of the brigade.
It is also obvious that the brigade is more maneuverable than the division.
It has already been written below that a structure is needed that uses both divisions and brigades. But it is clearly more difficult. By the way, dear members of the forum, after all, you served, therefore you should know that the brigades are an invention of Serdyukov - NON-BRED.
Just in the USSR there was a synthetic structure with brigades and divisions. I served in the 235th Guards Cannon Artillery Brigade.

[Lt. Air Force stock]

Quote: bk316

It has already been written below that a structure is needed that uses both divisions and brigades. But it is clearly more difficult.

How about using the shelves?

[bk316]

Either as part of divisions, or a regiment + reinforcement by a brigade.
For example, a motorized infantry + artillery brigade.
By the way, again in the USSR there was such an experience even interspecific (helicopter pilots + gunners + motorized infantry). I don't remember what the association was called.
And often there was an anti-tank regiment + a howitzer brigade or an anti-tank regiment + a howitzer regiment + a high-capacity brigade. In the latter, by the way, I myself participated in the exercises in 85. As I understand it, this is called layered artillery anti-tank defense. It turns out the depth of defense as much as 50 km. That is, enemy tanks need to march up to hundreds of kilometers in battle order and not in a column. Which is VERY difficult. Plus, the tanks cannot stop and shoot the infantry from a safe distance, howitzers will immediately cover them from behind the horizon. In general, the staff officers came up with a lot of things then .... Yes, I already forgot everything - how many years have passed.

[Lt. Air Force stock]

Quote: SKVichyakow

And under Serdyukov, they said, who started all the transformations in the RF Armed Forces, that the combat potential of brigades is much more maneuverable than divisions.

Well, on airplanes, a brigade is faster to transfer than a division.

[Orel]

Quote: SKVichyakow

And under Serdyukov, they said, who started all the transformations in the RF Armed Forces, that the combat potential of brigades is much more maneuverable than divisions.

Divisions were created to attack and capture, and brigades to defend themselves and not claim world domination. Therefore, after 2013, everything began.

[Yarhann]

the reorganization of the structure of the Army is a permanent process, in any country in the world where the army is developing, this has happened, is happening and will continue to happen.

[Normann]

Who, if not a Polish expert, knows the goals of reforming the structure of the RF Armed Forces.

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

For the Poles, what is not done in Russia is all just to attack Poland))).

[Normann]

You forgot about the Baltic countries and, most importantly, about Ukraine.

[Mountain shooter]

Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

For the Poles, what is not done in Russia is all just to attack Poland)))

What to attack her? If we advance, the wet spot will remain... And they understand this, that's why they hiss like that... and they always hissed.

[Reserve officer]

Exacerbation of the Poles in connection with the anniversary. On February 6, 1772, an agreement was signed in St. Petersburg between Prussia and Russia on the division of Poland.
First partition of Poland. 250 years, by the way. Round date. Congratulations?

[wandlitz]

The gentlemen have everything according to the saying "Who is talking about what, but a lousy one is talking about a bathhouse." It seems to them that Russia threatens Poland in everything ...

[Letun]

Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

For the Poles, what is not done in Russia is all just to attack Poland))).

What the hell, you step on it, then you can’t wash the sole

[TermNachTer]

So in defense, the division will be more effective than the brigade, if only because it has more people and military equipment)))

[Pereira]

A corps is more effective than a division.

[Normann]

And the army is more effective than the corps)

[sergo1914]

Quote: Normann

And the army is more effective than the corps)

Is the front more effective than the army?

[ammunition]

Quote: TermNachTER

So in defense, the division will be more effective than the brigade, if only because it has more people and military equipment)))

The division is optimal in terms of material supply architecture. And the brigade must be attached somewhere to supply. -)) I'm not kidding. These are warehouses and units of the Moscow Region .. For a division, just .. for a brigade, it’s unbearable.-)

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

The abandonment of the bragida and the transition back to the divisions is not connected with the desire to attack or attack someone, but with the fact that brigade commanders are less versed in managing large formations of several brigades than division commanders, since divisional commanders initially have to simultaneously control different types of troops - motorized rifle, tank, artillery, air defense, and brigade commanders, as a rule, units and smaller numbers and with a smaller variety of military branches.

Practice has shown that it is better to have one division than two brigades.

[Sergej1972]

The variety of military branches in the brigade is no less. The brigade has a reconnaissance battalion, a communications battalion, an anti-aircraft missile battalion, an anti-aircraft (rocket and artillery) battalion, a howitzer self-propelled artillery battalion, a rocket artillery battalion, and an anti-tank artillery battalion. Etc. And at the same time, for everything about everything, three motorized rifle and one tank battalion (or vice versa in a tank brigade).

[203-K]

. Practice has shown that it is better to have one division than two brigades.

Quite right, and moreover, the structure of the division is more suitable for our territories as an autonomous formation. It is not clear why we are still afraid to transfer one or two helicopter regiments to the division so that the divisional commander can competently lead them in the course of hostilities.

[Lt. Air Force stock]

Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

The abandonment of the bragida and the transition back to the divisions is not connected with the desire to attack or attack someone, but with the fact that brigade commanders are less versed in managing large formations of several brigades than division commanders, since divisional commanders initially have to simultaneously control different types of troops - motorized rifle, tank, artillery, air defense, and brigade commanders, as a rule, units and smaller numbers and with a smaller variety of military branches.

Practice has shown that it is better to have one division than two brigades.

Well, division commanders graduate from the General Staff Academy, and brigades only graduate from the military academy. What prevents colonels from being sent to study at the General Staff Academy so that they can better manage brigades.
In general, it is better to include the course of military academies in the course of military schools.
Now in military schools they teach structure up to the battalion inclusive, the regiment / brigade is already a military academy. Why not teach in military schools up to and including the brigade?

[vintorez]

Practice has not shown this. What kind of connections from several brigades? The brigade has no fewer branches of the armed forces.

[Fredgar Puzix Jr.]

Brigadier dog and pimple Serdyukov where is he "rolling" now ?!?!?! , mastered so much money .... He ran the pseudo-reform ...........

[Alex Justice]

Who invented the giant clown hats?

[Metlik]

Before the war, it was believed that small tank units were more effective. But practice put everything in its place. According to Fedorenko's directive: tank offensives are carried out only by a large mass of tanks, not less than a division. A smaller concentration of forces simply will not be able to advance a sufficient distance and gain a foothold there. And a big advance means breaking the interaction of enemy units and cutting off supply lines.

[Sergej1972]

It seems that our army is not going to completely abandon tank and motorized rifle brigades. In general, as experts write, our motorized rifle and tank brigades are extremely overweight. There are four tank and motorized rifle battalions like in a regiment, but artillery, air defense, and reconnaissance are almost like in a division. When converting to a division, it is required to add tank and motorized rifle battalions.

[faterdom]

Just in the division, the combat and logistics support services are more serious, in the form of reconnaissance, communications, engineering, repair, automobile, electronic warfare, artillery and air defense battalions in the form of regiments, the striking power and range of their means is much greater than that of the brigade. And the brigade ... In fact, a reinforced separate regiment, plus or minus a battalion, tank or motorized rifle. And the brigade is no match for a full-blooded division, maneuverability? These are Kudrin's and Serdyukov's mantras, because a company is even more maneuverable, a platoon can generally be transported in one bus.
Here, for special and technical troops, the brigade is optimal, and even maximum in composition, communications, RTV, special forces, artillery - there the brigades are justified.

[Lt. Air Force stock]

Quote: faterdom

And the brigade ... In fact, a reinforced separate regiment, plus or minus a battalion, tank or motorized rifle.

A regiment is somewhere around 3-4 battalions, a brigade 5-6.

[Sergej1972]

No, motorized rifle and tank brigades in the Russian Federation have the same number of tank and motorized rifle battalions as regiments.

[Sergej1972]

There is a reconnaissance battalion and a communications battalion in the brigade. And the number of artillery and air defense is not much inferior to the division. There are three artillery battalions (howitzer, anti-tank and rocket artillery), there are two air defense battalions. This is less than in the division, but this is not the case in the regiments.

[Lt. Air Force stock]

Quote: Sergej1972

In general, as experts write, our motorized rifle and tank brigades are extremely overweight.

Compared to the US, on the contrary, lighter. Our brigade is about 4000 people, in the USA there are 5000 people. We have a battalion of about 600 people, in the USA 1000.

[Sergej1972]

We have fewer motorized riflemen as such in the brigade and in the battalion.

[Sergej1972]

Interesting, my two comments. For one plus, for another minus. Although in principle their meaning is approximately the same.)

[Sands Careers General]

The Poles can sleep peacefully, no one is going to attack them in the near future, neither by brigades, nor by divisions.

And as for the brigade or divisional organization, both of them are needed and important, depending on the task assigned to the theater.

[Burbulator]

Ranks and positions in the division are higher than in the brigade.
Here is all the cheese.

[sleeve]

Are they bullied? Seriously? "A team of boxers is stronger than one boxer"? However, their business is what to write and what to pass off as truth. Refuting is useless and pointless. Brigade structure, divisional structure, deployment time, areas of responsibility, potential. These are smart and necessary concepts that were purely accidentally sounded in this and probably in many other articles. We are waiting for comparisons of regiments and battalions, air armies and air wings ...

[single-n]

And why the hell were the divisions reorganized into brigades? What damage did the RF Armed Forces end up with? All these dances cost a lot of money. Reforms named after Marshal Pinocchio.

[faterdom]

Quote: Single-n

And why the hell were the divisions reorganized into brigades? What damage did the RF Armed Forces end up with? All these dances cost a lot of money. Reforms named after Marshal Pinocchio.

And all then the same as the police to the police, and polyclinics were closed everywhere, and pensioners were shod in everything new.
The equipment and upkeep of a brigade are much cheaper than divisions. And it’s a pity for the money, it’s not for this, because the Olympala is here, the guys will come to the World Cup - you need to impress.
True, they changed their minds with the army when they realized that the partner strives to take everything for himself, and the mantras that "we are yours, bourgeois" are of little help. But the divisions, if you don’t mess around in a possible war, can solve real combat missions, or even prevent the desire to fight with us. In combination with other types of aircraft, of course. Also, at the last frontier, they saved the destruction of the system of military universities - only now they began to receive new young officers for the troops, there were no five years or more - after all, what a saving!
I would cut these, from the Gaidar forum right at the exit, and platoon commanders somewhere in Borzya or further away, so that the brains would be put in order in a couple of years.

[moreman78]

Quote: Sergej1972

It seems that our army is not going to completely abandon tank and motorized rifle brigades. In general, as experts write, our motorized rifle and tank brigades are extremely overweight. There are four tank and motorized rifle battalions like in a regiment, but artillery, air defense, and reconnaissance are almost like in a division. When converting to a division, it is required to add tank and motorized rifle battalions.

This is exactly where the main problem lies. The brigades were created by castrating the division - they left 1 regiment from the division and almost the entire rear and support of the division (BMO, rembat, isb, communications battalion, reconnaissance battalion, artillery (almost the entire artillery regiment), anti-tank division, 2 anti-aircraft divisions, etc. ), and all this is only 3 msb and 1 tb. There are no such brigades in ANY ARMY OF THE WORLD!
Brigades are needed in a different form - without such a huge convoy.

[Doliva63]

Quote: SKVichyakow

Quote: Zoldat_A

Quote: Pereira

Under Serdyukov, a lot of things were said.

I would rather fix everything that this [obscene] heaped up and forget him like a bad dream.
One thing is not clear - why he does not sit for life in the same cell with a murderer-pedophile or cannibal and, moreover, also in a position with a good, presumably, salary.

Now imagine how much effort, money, nerves were thrown to the wind from those parts, money in the end, from people like Chubais, Serdyukov, Kudrin, etc., who started all this dregs? This is how it was necessary to hate your country and all those living in it?

Rather, they do not hate the country so much as the Soviet legacy in any form. Moreover, they hate so fanatically that they can easily, what is called "freeze your ears." Of course, there will be harm. But they are for a "just cause", who will punish them for this. Well, they scolded, and that's it. Everything is there at the same time.

[PavelV]

Quote: Single-n

And why the hell were the divisions reorganized into brigades? What damage did the RF Armed Forces end up with? All these dances cost a lot of money. Reforms named after Marshal Pinocchio.

It's simple, really. Let's say you have five thousand people. You've brought them together into a "division" formation that will become fully combat-ready when another five thousand are added to it. But according to the results of the exercises / local conflict, it turned out that
a) you will deploy reservists for 4 months
b) The military conflict will be resolved in a week
And then you ask yourself a question - why the hell do I need a formation that is adapted for actions under conditions that simply do not have time to come?
To make it clear where it came from
point "b" - War in South Ossetia
point "a" - I can't guarantee, but in my opinion, it was decided based on the results of the call-up of reservists in the Urals as part of an experiment on the deployment of a wartime division (16th Guards Tank Division, Stability-2008 exercises).

[strannik1985]

Let's say you have five thousand people.

There is such a term - parts of constant readiness, i.e. staff 85-95% by wartime. By 2008, as part of the ChPG, 5 motorized rifle divisions, 21 regiments and 14 brigades.
They switched to the brigades under the pretext of 100% staffing of all brigades (did not work out), moreover, it was decided not to send to the war military service for less than six months, i.e. from these brigades here and now you can send battalion tactical group.

[Diverter]

in my understanding, if brigades are needed, then in the form of a reinforced regiment with a minimum set of support units. And use them in the airborne troops (VDV, MP), as well as in peacekeeping missions.
those. where you need to quickly transfer and deploy, and various mails, ensembles, rem workshops, etc. are not needed here and now.