Armored mastodons for the poor

83
Armored mastodons for the poor

Usually, when they write about third world battleships, they mention Latin America, but this is fundamentally not true. Latin American fleets have a long history, and at least a long combat experience. There were monitors, there were squadron battleships, there were armored cruisers... Of course, the appearance of battleships in those parts is simply inevitable. It is more correct to speak about Eurasia, more precisely, about the attempts of minor countries of this continent to acquire linear fleets, or semi-linear, or at least armored to some extent.

And there were a lot of these attempts, another question - someone fell out of the race at the planning stage, someone at the construction stage, and someone created something that brings to mind the immortal "The queen gave birth in the night." On the other hand, battleships were able to build only eight states, buy five, so the desire of small countries to have something in armor is understandable, this is prestige and belonging to the club, at least somehow.



Turkey


It was easiest for the Turks - even the Ottoman Empire formally acquired a real battlecruiser. Why formal? A ship under the command of a German, fighting in the interests of Germany and with a German crew, it is not entirely Turkish. But after the First World War, despite all the prohibitions, "Yavuz", aka "Goeben" in girlhood, did not go anywhere. On November 1, 1918, the German crew left it, and until 1926 the ship froze at the pier.

The Ottoman Empire crumbled, the Entente allies demanded to give up the ship, Istanbul resisted, as a result, Yavuz Selima still defended. But there was little point in this - in Turkey there was neither a dock nor money for repairs. The battlecruiser was remembered only in 1925, when the government of Mustafa Kemal ordered a floating dock for 25 tons. From 000 to 1926, the ship was overhauled with the help of the French, and again became a full-fledged combat unit.

True, Turkey was of little use for this - the ship successfully devoured money, in 1938 the second overhaul took place, which also cost a pretty penny, but in a military sense ... The USSR easily parried this move by transferring the Paris Commune to the Black Sea Fleet and increasing the number of light and submarine forces, and against others the old man, and even with weak anti-aircraft weapons, was no good.

And since 1950, it was completely put against the wall in Izmit, where it stood for 13 years, until it was decommissioned, when the last fragment of the Hochseeflotte began to be dismantled for metal. From the point of view of prestige for Turkey, the Goeben, of course, became an acquisition, from the point of view of the state, the floating dock and two upgrades cost like several light ships, and its guns on the shore would have looked much more harmonious.

Greece


The descendants of the Hellenes took care of the battleships in 1911, having learned about the plans of the Ottoman Empire. They did not work out with the French, the Insidious Albion built dreadnoughts for the Ottomans, and the Germans came to the aid of the Greeks. In 1913, the battleship Salamis was laid down - the smallest battleship in the world, carrying guns with a caliber of 356 mm. Eight of these guns decided to squeeze into a ship with a total displacement of 21 tons and disperse the resulting result to 500 knots. The armor, however, was not that great, but on paper it turned out pretty. The battleship was launched in Bremen and abandoned completely. The Germans did not intend to complete the ship to the Entente country during the war, but they could not complete it for themselves for two reasons - there were no guns that the Greeks ordered from the USA, and which ended up on British monitors, and the ship itself did not fit into the Hochseeflotte for all parameters.

As a result, the baby superdreadnought quietly rusted, after the war, however, the Greeks demanded their own, but the courts dragged on for ten long years, and by the beginning of the thirties it became pointless to buy a rusty hull. As a result, Salamis was quietly dismantled, along with the hopes of the Greeks to become almost like a sea power. I had to make do with the same ancient armored cruiser as a carrier of relatively large guns.

In this sense, the Greeks were lucky - a lot of money was saved and not superfluous for a small country.

Armored midgets


Three more states acted pragmatically - not compensating for national prestige with large calibers, they built what they had enough money for and what could be useful in possible wars. The Swedes were the first to embark on this path, laying down coastal defense battleships with steam turbine installations. From 1917 to 1921, three units of the Sverige type entered service. At 8000 tons displacement, with 4 23-inch guns and a speed of XNUMX knots, they were either classic BBO or something new thanks to the machines.

In any case, this trinity devoured much less money than dreadnoughts, and there was a benefit from them - heavy guns turned out to be useful to maintain neutrality in the World Wars. And they served for a long time, until the 50s, when the very concept of an artillery ship became outdated. In general, the Swedes showed just rare pragmatism in this sense, trying to build what is needed, and not what is fashionable

Finland chose a similar approach, building two coastal defense battleships with the unpronounceable names Väinämöinen and Ilmarinen. Both babies were built for operations in skerries, and in a displacement of 3900 tons, the Finns managed to place diesel-electric installations that accelerated ships up to 15 knots, four (in two-gun turrets) ten-inch guns, with a range of up to 160 cables, and a modest armor of 55 mm.

True, their fate turned out to be sad, the Ilmarinen hit a mine on September 13, 1941 and sank, and the Väinämöinen survived until the end of the war and turned into the Vyborg, sold by the USSR in 1947. It was repaired in the Soviet Navy and remained in service until 1966. The very idea of ​​a small skerry ship with ice reinforcements and heavy guns turned out to be much more viable than plans to build something huge and useless.

Third in the club of armored babies was the kingdom of Siam, which built its "Sri Ayuti" and "Donburi" in Japan. In the displacement of the leader (2200 tons), the Japanese shoved two diesel engines, four eight-inchers and an armor belt 63 mm thick. The ships entered service in 1938, managed to take part in battles with the French and internal troubles. Thonburi was heavily damaged by the French in 1941, and was never restored, but was used as a non-self-propelled battery, and Sri Ayuti was sunk ... by mortars during the 1951 uprising.

Thus, little is not always good either, and Thai babies have never justified themselves.

Huge plans


“Portugal in 1912 seriously discussed the issue of ordering three 21-ton dreadnoughts of the Brazilian São Paulo type from England. But this seemed not enough. A year later, the Portuguese wanted three more battleships - this time of the Orion type or even the Queen Elizabeth! Of course, all these plans remained on paper, and Portugal had to be content with three destroyers and as many submarines, which in the end resulted in its grandiose shipbuilding program. Holland went even further in their plans. Fearing for the safety of their colonies in Southeast Asia (present-day Indonesia), they decided to build here no less than nine (!) Battleships with a displacement of more than 500 thousand tons each.

And then there was Poland, a descendant of the Commonwealth dreamed of two battleships:

“At the disarmament conference in Geneva, Poland announced its desire to create a fleet with a total displacement of 150 tons. Polish publicist Julian Ginsbert published a draft shipbuilding program, which included two battleships, 000 heavy cruisers, 2 destroyers, 9 destroyers, 9 submarines, 18 minesweeper, 21 patrol boats and many auxiliary ships.

Holland experienced a relapse, planning to copy the German Gneisnau:

“... in 1938 a big plan was adopted to strengthen the Dutch armed forces. The naval part of this plan was called the Battlecruiser Program. The design of the ships that gave the name to the plan was based on the foresight that the war would be a coalition and Holland would have to put up enough forces to, together with the Allies, repulse the aggressor. The basis of the Dutch forces should be battlecruisers.

Others also had dreams, fortunately, completely intangible. And in the end, the path of Sweden and Finland turned out to be correct, which, without foolishness, built what was needed for real tasks, and not symbols of a superpower that does not exist.
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83 comments
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  1. +20
    25 January 2022 18: 22
    Why mix coastal defense ships and dreadnoughts? To pull an owl on a globe?
    The smallest dreadnoughts ever built are the Spanish España class (three units).
    1. +9
      25 January 2022 18: 43
      Only slightly larger were the American South Carolina and Michigan, the construction of which was approved even earlier (the construction of BB-27 was approved on March 3, 1905) than the Dreadnought.
      1. 0
        26 January 2022 12: 42
        Quote: Constanty
        Only slightly larger were the American South Carolina and Michigan, the construction of which was approved even earlier (the construction of BB-27 was approved on March 3, 1905) than the Dreadnought.

        EMNIP, "Michigans" turned out to be so only because of bureaucratic red tape: the USN did not have time to issue a proposal to Congress to increase the displacement of new battleships in time - and was forced to build them within the old limit of 16 tons.
    2. +2
      25 January 2022 22: 06
      Why mix coastal defense ships and dreadnoughts?
      about attempts by minor countries of this mainland to acquire linear fleets, or semi-linear ones, or at least armored to some extent.
      Probably for this reason. hi
  2. +11
    25 January 2022 18: 36
    Roman, explain why you included Turkey in the club of small "giants"? The latter did not exchange for ersatz battleships. Even before the commissioning of the “ownerless” Gebin, they tried to build full-fledged battleships in Britain, but the First World War began and Foggy Albion showed the Ottoman Porte a dole. According to the history of fleets, Turkish is older than Latin America definitely.
    According to the Greeks, you mixed everything together!
    First - the Greeks wanted a four-tower, eight-gun (305mm) flagship, they received a three-tower with six guns (356mm). During the war, Germany repeatedly refused the Greeks to receive a boat. After, on the contrary, she tried to legally suck in the battleship. If I'm not mistaken, Hellas paid 30 forfeits and the ship was cut into metal.
    Then we are talking about BB, but where is the Spanish Alphonse?
    Read Kotorin's "Unique and Paradoxical Military Equipment".
    1. +14
      25 January 2022 19: 24
      Foggy Albion showed the Ottoman Port a muzzle.

      In the design and construction of "Reshad V" ("Decision"), then the British HMS Erin.


    2. +9
      25 January 2022 19: 27
      the Greeks wanted a four-turret, eight-gun (305mm) flagship, got a three-turret with six guns (356mm)

      Do you mean Salamis?
      1. +6
        25 January 2022 20: 58
        Quote: Sea Cat
        the Greeks wanted a four-turret, eight-gun (305mm) flagship, got a three-turret with six guns (356mm)

        Do you mean Salamis?

        Yes!
        I have not heard of any 8-gun Greek battleship with 356mm guns.
        1. +3
          26 January 2022 10: 02
          I have not heard of any 8-gun Greek battleship with 356mm guns


          In the final version of the Salamis project, it was armed with 8 356 mm guns.


          Here is an unfinished building in Hamburg


          It should also be remembered that in 1913 Greece ordered one Brittany-class battleship with 10 340-mm guns from France - Vasilefs Konstantinos, the construction of which was interrupted in 1914 after the outbreak of the First World War.
        2. 0
          16 March 2022 11: 59
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          About no 8 gun with 356mm guns

          so it was about 8x305 or 6x356
    3. +13
      25 January 2022 20: 45
      It should also be remembered that HMS "Agincourt", which was originally built for Brazil as Rio de Janerio, after Brazil refused to finance the construction, construction was continued for Turkey as "Sultân Osmân-ı Evvel" ("Sultan Osman I").



      The almost completed ship, which was undergoing sea trials, with a Turkish crew in the UK, was confiscated by the Royal Navy after the outbreak of the First World War. You never know that Turkey received this ship

      Sultan Osman-i Evvel cost Turkey £2 in 750. It's hard to talk about a ship for the poor wink
    4. +2
      25 January 2022 22: 53
      The fact that the lords showed the fig to the Ottomans - so the latter had to say to the Anglo-Saxons also a big human "rahmat" bowing low to the waist. The Turks collected pennies for these armored tsatsks with their entire Ottoman world .. Of course - the "battleship" sounds proud. And in general .. But ... The maintenance of these ships to the treasury flies a big penny. And the crews from the Turks? In 1914, the personnel of those floating units that were mistakenly called the fleet left much to be desired. And given the blockade of Zonguldak, as a result of which there was not enough coal even to cover the Sultan's seraglio in WWI ... Conclusions suggest themselves.
  3. +1
    25 January 2022 18: 50
    The paradox is that even among strong countries, battleships were the number one victims - just remember Pearl Harber, where the Japanese gave the battleships a headache. In general, the time of these ships really passed at the beginning of World War II, aviation and aircraft carriers turned out to be the nail that drove the battleship into history, and forever deleted it from the fleets of the world as a combat system.
    1. Alf
      +13
      25 January 2022 19: 36
      Quote: Thrifty
      battleships were the number one victims - just remember Pearl Harber, where the Japanese gave the battleships a thrashing.

      Because no aircraft carriers were found. If I remember correctly, either Ganda or Futida were very lamented that Lady Lexa and Lady Sarah were not in P-X.
      1. +6
        25 January 2022 20: 14
        Mitsuo Fuchida. He commanded directly the raid on the harbor.
        1. Alf
          +5
          25 January 2022 20: 29
          Quote: Sea Cat
          Mitsuo Fuchida. He commanded directly the raid on the harbor.

          I believe. I do not remember.
    2. -1
      25 January 2022 20: 11
      Quote: Thrifty
      aviation and aircraft carriers turned out to be the nail that drove the battleship into history

      Wrong statement! The decline of the era of battleships fell on the heyday of rocket weapons! If not for anti-ship and anti-aircraft missiles, aircraft carriers would still be wandering around alone!
      1. +10
        25 January 2022 20: 39
        If not for anti-ship and anti-aircraft missiles, aircraft carriers would still be wandering around alone!

        Really? laughing
        An aircraft carrier strike group (group) (AUG) is an operational formation of ships of the brigade-division level, the combat core of which is a multi-purpose aircraft carrier (AVM) [1]. Aircraft carriers never operate alone, but always as part of the so-called aircraft carrier groups: attack (AUG), multipurpose (AMG) or anti-submarine (APUG). In this case, the strike aircraft carrier is the core of the connection. A larger operational formation of several aircraft carriers and the ship groups supporting them is called an aircraft carrier strike formation (an aircraft carrier squadron; in the US Navy, an operational fleet).


        And all this was during the Second World War, before the advent of rocket weapons, well, if you do not count the "Fau".
        1. -9
          25 January 2022 21: 39
          Quote: Sea Cat
          And all this was during the Second World War, before the advent of rocket weapons, well, if you do not count the "Fau".

          This is a modern AUG. During the Second World War, aircraft carriers operated independently with a small escort of one or two destroyers that protected the aircraft carrier from submarines. From everything else, the Yankees believed that they would fight off with the help of carrier-based aircraft! laughing
          1. +9
            25 January 2022 21: 55
            "Two destroyers"? What are you saying.

            On January 6, 1944, the fast carrier-based formation of the US Navy received the designation "Operational Connection 58" - "Task Force 58" (TF.58),

            Operational groups:

            TF.58.1 (flag of Rear Admiral John V. Reeves) - squadron AB Enterprise (CV-6), Yorktown (CV-10), light AB Bello Wood (CVL-24), 3 battleships, cruiser air defense, 9 destroyers;
            TF.58.2 (flag of Rear Admiral Alfred Montgomery) - squadron AB Essex (CV-9), Intrepid (CV-11), light AB Cabot (CVL-28), 3 battleships, air defense cruiser, 9 destroyers;
            TF.58.3 (flag of Rear Admiral Frederick K. Sherman) - squadron AB "Bunker Hill" (CV-17), light AB "Monterey" (CVL-26), "Cowpens" (CVL-25), 2 battleships, heavy cruiser, 9 destroyers;
            TF.58.4 (flag of Rear Admiral S.P. Ginger) - squadron AB Saratoga (CV-3), light AB Princeton (CVL-23), Langley (CVL-27), 2 heavy cruisers, 2 air defense cruisers, 8 destroyers.
            1. -2
              25 January 2022 22: 59
              Quote: Sea Cat
              "Two destroyers"? What are you saying.

              That's right, the battle in the Coral Sea and the battle for Midway showed the fallacy of hopes that carrier-based aviation is an impenetrable shield! I had to enlarge the air connections. But the construction of battleships and battle and heavy cruisers was not abandoned! Therefore, there were as many as six "Iowas", and "Montans" to come after! "Alaska" and other "Baltimore" "Oregon City" and "Des Moines". That is 36 heavy cruisers, 11 battleships and 6 battlecruisers. What about missiles? Then the Germans already had a guided missile Hs 293! The rapid development of rocket technology and its means of delivery, the emergence of nuclear weapons, that's what sent the sea giants into oblivion! And not the very fact of the existence of an aircraft carrier.
              1. +2
                26 January 2022 12: 21
                Quote: Vladimir Lenin
                I had to enlarge the air connections.


                Battle in the coral sea:
                composition of forces:
                USA 2 aircraft carriers,
                9 cruisers (!),
                13 destroyers (!),
                2 tankers,
                1 hydro-aircraft carrier,


                Japan:
                2 aircraft carriers
                1 light aircraft carrier
                9 cruisers (!),
                15 destroyers (!),
                5 minesweepers,
                2 mine layers
                2 submarine hunters,
                3 gunboats,
                1 tanker,
                1 hydro-aircraft carrier,
                12 transports


                Battle of Midway.
                USA 3 aircraft carriers,
                7 heavy cruisers,
                1 light cruiser
                15 destroyers,

                The Japanese carrier-based formation and its direct cover group, excluding the invasion forces: 1st Fleet (Commander Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, flagship Yamato) and 2nd Fleet (MIDWAY INVASION UNIT - 2nd Fleet), Commander Vice Admiral Nobutake Kondo, Atago's flagship
                1st Aircraft Carrier Strike Force, Vice Admiral Chuichi Nagumo, Akagi's flagship
                4.1 Carrier Group Vice Admiral Nagumo
                4.2 1st Carrier Division Vice Admiral Nagumo
                4.3 2nd Aircraft Carrier Division, Rear Admiral Tamon Yamaguchi, flagship Hiryu
                4.4 Support Group, Rear Admiral Hiroaki Abe, flagship Tone - 2 pennants:
                Heavy cruiser "Tone", Captain 1st Rank Tametsugu Okada (8th battalion cruiser, Rear Admiral Abe)
                Heavy cruiser "Tikuma", Captain 1st Rank Keizo Komura (8th battalion cruiser, Rear Admiral Abe)
                4.5 3rd division of battleships, captain 1st rank Tamotsu Koma - 2 pennants:
                Battleship "Haruna", captain 1st rank Koma
                Battleship "Kirishima", Captain 1st Rank Sanji Iwabuchi
                4.6 Security, 10th destroyer squadron, Rear Admiral Susumu Kimura - 12 pennants
                Light cruiser "Nagara" (flagship), captain 1st rank Tosho Naoi
                Destroyer "Novaki", captain 2nd rank Magotaro Koga (4th division, cap. 1st rank Kosaku Origa)
                Destroyer "Arashi", captain 2nd rank Yasumasa Watanabe (4th division, cap. 1st rank Kosaku Origa)
                Destroyer "Hagikaze", captain 2nd rank Yuichi Shagami (4th division, cap. 1st rank Kosaku Origa)
                Destroyer "Maikaze", captain 2nd rank Seidai Nakasugi (4th division, cap. 1st rank Kosaku Origa)
                "Kazagumo", captain 2nd rank Masayoshi Yoshida (10th division, cap. 1st rank Tosho Abe)
                "Yugumo", captain 2nd rank Oigeo Senba (10th div., cap. 1st rank Tosho Abe)
                "Makigumo", Captain 2nd rank Isamu Fujita (10th division, cap. 1st rank Tosho Abe)
                "Urakadze", captain 2nd rank Nagayoshi Shiraishi (11th division, cap. 1st rank Masayuki Kitamura)
                "Isokaze", captain 2nd rank Sunichi Toshima (11th division, cap. 1st rank Masayuki Kitamura)
                "Tanikaze", captain 2nd rank Motoi Katsumi (11th division, cap. 1st rank Masayuki Kitamura)
                "Hamakaze", Captain 2nd rank Tsuneo Orita (11th division, cap. 1st rank Masayuki Kitamura)
                4.7 Supply group, captain 1st rank Masanao Oto, etc.

                The composition of the aircraft carrier cover groups from the very beginning of the war was numerous.
          2. +2
            26 January 2022 13: 01
            Quote: Vladimir Lenin
            In World War II, aircraft carriers operated independently with a small escort of one or two destroyers that protected the aircraft carrier from submarines.

            Only at the beginning of the war and at Halsey - during raiding operations, he liked to separate AB groups from the escort to shell the islands occupied by the Japanese. For example, in the raid on Votya and Taroa, "Big E" had only 3 EM left in the escort. And the remaining 3 CR and 3 EM went to shell these islands.
            Usually in the USN AB escort, even at the beginning of the war, there were 2-3 CDs and 4-8 EMs. "Lady Lex" even allocated 4 CR and 10 EM in the raid on Rabaul.
      2. +5
        25 January 2022 21: 22
        Wrong statement! The decline of the era of battleships fell on the heyday of rocket weapons! If not for anti-ship and anti-aircraft missiles, aircraft carriers would still be wandering around alone!

        If I'm not mistaken, only one battleship was built after World War II. And then he inherited buggies and guns from pre-war battlecruisers!
        1. +6
          25 January 2022 21: 31
          That's right. The battleship HMS Vanguard is the penultimate (tenth) British warship of that name. HMS Vanguard entered the fleet only on August 9, 1946 and did not have time to take part in World War II.

        2. +2
          26 January 2022 12: 58
          In some way, the French battleship Jean Bart ("Jean Bart") could be added.
          1. +1
            26 January 2022 23: 06
            If not for the death of Comrade Stalin, the last battleships would have been Stalingrad.
            1. Hog
              0
              28 January 2022 13: 53
              Stalingrad is a heavy cruiser (according to the Soviet classification), but the project 24 battleship.
              1. 0
                28 January 2022 21: 08
                compare the displacement of this cruiser with the Sauzdakota, for example, or KD5. Only Iowa is larger. Actually armor and caliber are not so important. The main thing is who will get hit faster. Suo and towers are enough to disable and 305mm. Yes, and the armor of Stalingrad could well hold battleship shells at certain heading angles and distances. IMHO quite a battleship. In terms of armament, it is much cooler than the Scharnhorst and is approximately similar to battleships of the KD5 type. Armor for combat at long distances at the level of battleships - the deck is battleship, although the belt is relatively thin, but with a slope, at long distances, and even at heading angles of 45 degrees, it’s not easy to hit and pierce
                1. Hog
                  0
                  28 January 2022 22: 11
                  compare the displacement of this cruiser with the Sauzdakota, for example, or KD5.

                  Or with a supertanker.
                  A decade separates ships, what other displacement (we compared a ship built with displacement restrictions, and another without).
                  The 110mm deck against the 406mm main battery is so-so protection (the 406-MK8 snard pierced the 150mm deck 23km further, the belt breaks closer).
                  305mm are too light and at a distance they are much less useful (to put it mildly). Armor was made against 203mm.
                  PS: How everyone loves to be smarter than designers.
                  1. 0
                    16 June 2022 10: 18
                    A battleship without suo and towers is an incapable trough. As practice has shown (Scharnhorst, Bismarck, hiei, sodak, PoU), in order to disable a battleship (suo, towers) there is no need to break through the armor. In a collision of two battleships, the one who quickly withdraws the enemy’s suo and artillery wins, i.e. who will shoot faster and get more hits at the beginning of the battle. Due to the good ballistics of the cannons and the rate of fire, Stalingrad had a good chance of depriving the enemy of combat capability before he could hit the zhvch. Kirishima with cardboard armor survived the execution by Washington from a pistol range. Scharnhorst with battleship protection looked no better after a comparable number of hits. Hiei went to another world completely from the shells of cruisers and destroyers. The lack of full-fledged battleship protection did not prevent the British and Japanese from considering the Reepals and Kongos as capital ships and using them accordingly.
                2. -1
                  16 March 2022 12: 18
                  Quote: swzero
                  compare the displacement of this cruiser with a sauzdakota, for example, or KD5. Only Iowa is larger. Actually armor and caliber are not so important. The main thing is who will get hit faster. Suo and towers are enough to disable and 305mm.

                  this is not a toy world of ships
                  Firstly, there is a radical difference in how battleships are built. Italian battleships with similar weapons Iowa had a displacement one and a half to two times less! The difference is in the required autonomy and seaworthiness.
                  secondly, battleships, unlike battlecruisers (hello Hood!), are designed to withstand firefights. And the first hit rarely decides the outcome of the battle.
                  Thirdly, 305 mm shells on a normal battleship are capable of inflicting only non-critical damage, and all posts on battleships are either seriously armored or duplicated, often 3-4 times.
                  As for KD5, this battleship both absorbed a lot of previous experience and was not left without a large list of problems. For example, his 4 gun turrets turned out to be unsuccessful and inconvenient, the French did better, although not a fountain either. And the raised 2nd gun turret was called salute by the KD5 sailors themselves, because it didn’t get anywhere due to the guidance features.
          2. 0
            27 January 2022 14: 37
            Quote: Constanty
            In some way, the French battleship Jean Bart ("Jean Bart") could be added.

            With reservations! Since the latter managed to escape from France during the capture of the last Nazi Germany. If not a war, it was put into operation in the first months of the Second World War.
            1. 0
              27 January 2022 14: 56
              If not a war, it was put into operation in the first months of the Second World War.

              I wouldn't exaggerate those early months wink . In June 1940, one turret of the main artillery gun had not yet been assembled on the Jean Bart and was only 75% complete.
              The period from the descent of the Richelieu to entering service is about 14 months. If we assume a similar period of finishing work for Jean Bart, then he would have entered service in May / June 1941 - more than a year and a half after the start of the war

              HMS "Vanguard", by the way, also with a certain reservation - this is a battleship not so much built after the war, but only completed after the war.
              As Aleksey (swzero) noted, de facto the only battleships / battleships under construction AFTER THE WAR were the Soviet heavy cruisers of project 82
              1. Hog
                0
                28 January 2022 13: 55
                AFTER THE WAR, the Soviet heavy cruisers of project 82 were battleships / battleships

                Which side were they battleships?
                1. 0
                  28 January 2022 16: 53
                  Sorry, the translator has changed - it should have been battleships/battlecruisers

                  And so I know that in Soviet terminology they were heavy cruisers - but a ship with such a displacement, armor and 9x305mm armor is, in fact, a battlecruiser
                  1. Hog
                    0
                    28 January 2022 18: 22
                    305mm after WWII is not a battleship caliber (on LK pr.24 they wanted 457mm), even for WWII it was a small caliber (after 343, 350, 356, 380, 381mm).
                    No one called American Alaska battlecruisers, but they also had 305.
                    There is nothing to say about the armor at all.
                    1. 0
                      28 January 2022 18: 31
                      I don't agree. Caliber 305 is by no means the caliber of cruiser guns (except for battlecruisers). In WWI, it was a common caliber (see Germany), and after World War II, both battleships and battlecruisers armed with 305-mm and 280-mm guns were in service. Let me remind you that after the war, the "Paris Commune" and "October Revolution" were still in service with the Soviet fleet - armed with 305mm guns and not better armored - and no one claimed that they were not battleships.
                      1. Hog
                        0
                        28 January 2022 19: 27
                        Your right does not agree.
                        Only the very first British and Germans had 305 (and even then they laid down ships with 350 GK), then the caliber grew to 381 (Hood, as the last representative of the class built). After WWII, all battleship projects came with GK 406+, 305 was no longer considered a battleship caliber.
                        The fact that Turkey had Goeben does not mean anything, because. it was an ancient ship with no upgrades, and as a combat unit it was worthless.
                        Sevastopol had much better armor protection than Stalingrad (their armor was not only limited to a 225mm belt), but these LCs could only be used as a battery navigation no more (which they could do with the same Iowam or Yamato, but they decided everything with the very first covering ).
                2. -3
                  16 March 2022 12: 23
                  Quote: Hog
                  Which side were they battleships


                  Well, here are the lines on the ship for you, why not a battleship? laughing
              2. -2
                16 March 2022 12: 10
                Jean Bar and Richelieu were still partially combat-ready until fully commissioned
    3. -2
      16 March 2022 12: 08
      stop thinking in stereotypes. It won't let you be smart.
      battleships were not victims, but number one targets. The same Yamato drowned under a concentrated attack of aircraft from as many as 11 aircraft carriers.
      Battleships have lost the dubious title of the main striking force of the fleet, but have not lost their relevance - American and British battleships have done a lot of work on ww2.
  4. +12
    25 January 2022 19: 56
    From the first lines I recognized the indescribable style of Roman :))
    As they say in tyrnets "a lot of letters about nothing" request
    1. +16
      25 January 2022 20: 39
      From the first lines I recognized the indescribable style of Roman :))

      Ignorant-impudent style. The author likes to pat his ancestors patronizingly on the shoulder and tell how narrow-minded and stupid they were. True, there are serious problems with knowledge, but the ancestors, after all, cannot be convicted of ignorance.
      Holland experienced a relapse, planning to copy the German Gneisnau:

      “... in 1938 a big plan was adopted to strengthen the Dutch armed forces. The naval part of this plan was called the Battlecruiser Program.

      Holland seriously planned the construction of dreadnoughts in 1912. A Royal Commission was created, which proposed building nine battleships. A competition was announced, for which Germaniawerft, Blohm & Voss and Vickers offered their projects. Alas, it was not poverty that prevented the plans, but the First World War.
      Tellingly, the second attempt by the Dutch to acquire a battle fleet was prevented by the war - World War II. Although the project has already been - Design 1047 battlecruiser.
      1. +1
        25 January 2022 21: 00
        Well, actually, the Dutch really wanted a couple of battlecruisers before WWII to protect their Far Eastern colonies. And I must admit they guessed it, the samurai captured their colony. The problem was that their shipbuilders had never built such large ships, they wanted technical assistance from either the Italians or the Germans. The Germans seemed to agree, but occupied Holland much earlier than the completion of construction.
        1. +4
          25 January 2022 21: 05
          At first they hoped for the French ("Dunkirk"), then they turned to the Germans, then they began to design themselves, consulted with the Italians, then they agreed with the Germans, but it was too late.
      2. +6
        25 January 2022 21: 03
        Traditionally, describing the Dutch "Wishlist of battleships", they recall the "attempts to enter the big leagues" of the Poles - with 40 km of the coast of the Baltic Sea!
        1. +6
          25 January 2022 21: 10
          By the way, the Polish "battleship epic" is much more interesting than the author described it.
          1. +5
            25 January 2022 21: 17
            Quote: Undecim
            By the way, the Polish "battleship epic" is much more interesting than the author described it.

            Definitely Viktor Nikolaevich!
            If you use a theme, then it is necessary with inspiration and love !!!
            1. +5
              25 January 2022 21: 27
              And there was even a battleship under the Polish flag.
              1. +2
                25 January 2022 21: 49
                Yah!!! Truth? belay
                1. +6
                  25 January 2022 22: 14
                  Truth. In 1945, the Poles raised their flag on the German battleship Schleswig-Holstein, which the British sank in the shallows at Gdynia in 1944. But not for long.
                  1. +6
                    25 January 2022 22: 50
                    Yes, Schleswig, of course, to all battleships - a battleship. smile

                  2. +1
                    26 January 2022 14: 50
                    Quote: Undecim
                    It is true.

                    Crazy :)))) Thank you, I didn't know
                  3. +2
                    26 January 2022 18: 58
                    There was also "Paris" - a French battleship of the "Courbet" type, captured during the "Catapult" by the British and transferred to the "Free Forces of Poland" as a floating barracks.
                    1. +3
                      26 January 2022 19: 03
                      As a ship in 1940, the Poles abandoned it. There was no crew for it, no money for repairs either. Moreover, he had to walk under two flags - Polish and French.
          2. +2
            25 January 2022 21: 40
            I don't know about funnier, but funnier for sure. Even then they said that Poland is a capitalist country without capital))) and the fleet and the base in Gdynia were built on a French loan)))
            1. +1
              26 January 2022 10: 18
              both the fleet and the base in Gdynia were built on a French loan)))


              As for the fleet, the destroyers ORP "Wicher", ORP "Burza" and submarines ORP Wilk, ORP Żbik, ORP Ryś were actually built on a French loan, it was not the entire Polish fleet. Two destroyers were built in the UK, two submarines in the Netherlands (including one on voluntary contributions from citizens!) Not on credit.

              The port in Gdynia was built largely thanks to private investors (including the Association of Upper Silesian Mines Robur, "Polskie Kopalnie Skarbowe na Górnym Śląsku Skarboferm") attracted by the Polish government through tax incentives,
              and from the money generated from trading in the rights to operate the berths. The right to manage the Danish wharf was sold a few years before it was built. In exchange for renting shipyards at the port quay in Gdynia, the companies were required to install transshipment facilities. Money went to finance the rice factory and warehouses, including Luszczarnia and Mlyny Krakowskie, Oleyarnia Gdansk or Zukroport.
              1. -1
                26 January 2022 13: 31
                Those destroyers were built in England, on an English loan. In general, the Poles have a habit - to live at the expense of others))) now they live at the expense of the EU)))
                1. +1
                  26 January 2022 14: 08
                  In addition to the fact that a loan is not a gift/donation,

                  it is also not true that the destroyers "Thunder" were built on an English loan. Funds to cover the costs of the contract (The price for each of the ships under construction was set at £388) were to be allocated from the budget of the Ministry of War Affairs and thanks to savings in the Navy itself, with 233% of the construction costs entirely deliveries from the Polish side!
                  1. -1
                    26 January 2022 18: 50
                    Yeah, only there are countries that believe that cowards pay their debts))) although it must be admitted that the arrogant Saxons, even those burnouts, will melt fat even from a mosquito))) we are now seeing this on the example of Banderland)))
                    1. +1
                      26 January 2022 18: 58
                      only there are countries that believe that cowards pay their debts


                      In November 1888, Russia entered into a loan agreement with the Hoskier syndicate for a wish in the amount of 500 million francs, ... , 1889 and 467 million francs, in 1 - by 200 million francs, in 1890 - by 300 million francs, in 600 - again three by 350, 1891 and 612 billion francs, in 1893 - by 173 million francs, in 1894 - 432 million francs, in 378 - 3 million francs, in 1896 - 400 million francs, in 1901 - 424 million francs. Growth The expenditures of the Russian budget related to Russian financial loans are clearly visible after the annual expenditures of the Russian Ministry of War: while in 1904 they amounted to 800 million rubles, in 1906 - 1,365 million rubles.


                      Along with loans taken over time
                      The First World War, Russia's external debt amounted to almost 12 billion rubles, of which 3,950 million francs fell to the share of French creditors. In January 1918, the Bolshevik government canceled all of Russia's external debts as of December 1917.


                      Here's your attitude to the return of debts.
                      1. -1
                        26 January 2022 19: 00
                        And how much did the former allies loot during the Civil War, did you count?
                      2. +1
                        26 January 2022 19: 04
                        And what does that have to do with it? - debt is debt

                        And as I showed you, the port of Gdynia was not built on foreign loans, like the entire Polish fleet - because this is nonsense.
                        And Poland repaid French loans for the construction of destroyers and submarines by 1936.
                      3. -1
                        26 January 2022 19: 07
                        You have a wonderful logic))) following it - I lent money to a man, as soon as he left my house, I caught up with him, took away what I gave him and told him that he owes me the amount that I robbed him) ))
                      4. +1
                        26 January 2022 19: 14
                        French loans for Russia are specific amounts, specific contracts for which there are documents, and complaints about robberies during the civil war and intervention are general provisions that in no way cancel the loans taken.

                        The government of the USSR did not try to prove the equivalence of the losses caused by the FRENCH intervention, and tried to conclude a compensation agreement on this basis, but simply recognized the loans and debts as non-existent.

                        Yes - this is purely Bolshevik logic.

                        And it should be remembered that despite the debts of tsarist Russia to France, she was interned in Bizerte a did not take over part of the Black Sea Fleet as part of the collection of certain debts.
                      5. -1
                        26 January 2022 20: 32
                        I would like to point out to you that before the PWM, England and France did not lend to Russia out of the kindness of their hearts, but because they needed a strong ally against Germany. If you didn't need it, you wouldn't get a broken penny.
                      6. +1
                        26 January 2022 20: 38
                        Obviously. This is the meaning of the loan - this is a benefit for the giver and earnings / or other benefits
                      7. -2
                        26 January 2022 20: 46
                        So during the four years of the war, Russia, with the blood of its soldiers, paid off these loans ten times. And you have to be a complete, complete creature (almost an exact description of the city's businessmen) to demand the return of money for loans from a country that has just experienced PWM, Civil and intervention. Therefore, the Bolsheviks acted absolutely correctly and logically.
                      8. +1
                        26 January 2022 20: 55
                        In a situation where the Bolsheviks signed the treacherous (from the point of view of the Entente and allied obligations) Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, which allowed the Germans to transfer all their forces to the Western Front, which resulted in a sea of ​​blood of French and English soldiers, it hardly surprises France and England that she did not sympathized with the Bolsheviks.
                      9. -1
                        26 January 2022 21: 02
                        And when Samsonov's army was thrown against the Vost. Prussia, the allies were very worried about the lives of Russian soldiers? Recent events in Afghanistan have clearly demonstrated that the disregard for second-class people has remained unchanged. And when these people treat white Sahibs badly, they are very surprised and offended)))
                      10. +1
                        26 January 2022 22: 28
                        And when Samsonov's army was abandoned against the well-prepared for the defense Vost. Prussia


                        I haven't laughed like that in a long time.

                        East Prussia was poorly prepared for defense (from the word at all).

                        The Germans, surprised by the speed of the mobilization of the Russian army and defeated at the Stolupians and Gambina, even thought of surrendering the whole of East Prussia - the commander of the 8th German army, General Maximilian von Prittwitz-und-Gafron, considered the situation hopeless and on August 20 he ordered to retreat behind the Vistula.
                        Only his resignation and the arrival of Luddendorff, Hindenburg and two corps from the Western Front improved the position of the Germans.
                      11. -1
                        26 January 2022 22: 58
                        So defeated the Germans or the Germans?)))
                      12. +1
                        26 January 2022 23: 46
                        The East Prussian campaign was won by the Germans, but not thanks to good preparation for the defense (for there was none), but in short, thanks to the efficiency of the German railways and the mistakes of the Russian side.
                      13. -1
                        27 January 2022 13: 11
                        Mistakes on the Russian side would not have happened if there had not been tearful requests for help from Paris and London. But then, these little bastards, they counted everything, to the last penny.
                      14. +2
                        26 January 2022 19: 37
                        Quote: Constanty
                        In January 1918, the Bolshevik government canceled all of Russia's external debts as of December 1917.

                        Not certainly in that way.
                        1) Delegation of the RSFSR at the Genoa Conference
                        expressed its readiness to discuss the question of the form of compensation to former foreign owners in Russia, subject to de jure recognition of the Soviets and the provision of loans to it. The amount the Bolsheviks valued the nationalized foreign capital can be judged from the memo of G. V. Chicherin dated March 2, 1922: “Before the start of the revolution, there were 327 enterprises with foreign capital in Russia, with a total share capital of approximately 1.300.000.000 rubles . The main mass of foreign capital is 989.800.000 rubles. invested in the mining, mining and metalworking industries, 152.300.000 rubles. invested in the electrical industry. If we exclude Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, Russia will have 263 enterprises with foreign capital with a fixed capital of about 1.168.000.000 rubles. Belgian-French capital invested 622 million rubles, German - 378 million rubles, English - 226 million rubles. As you can see, there is nothing boundless"

                        Another thing is that it was not possible to agree.
                        2) Many large creditors had their debts repaid during the Soviet era. In particular, by 1927 the debts to the Lyon Credit and Societe Generale for the construction of the Trans-Siberian Railway were repaid.
                        3) in 1997 compensation was paid to French holders of Russian securities.
                        4) EMNIP paid off everyone by 00m.
                        P.S. You were provoked, and you were seduced.
                      15. 0
                        26 January 2022 19: 44
                        expressed readiness to discuss the form of compensation to former foreign owners in Russia, subject to de jure recognition of the Soviets and granting loans


                        Sorry, but this sounds like a mockery and a bad joke (or just a ploy to interrupt the conversation). Moreover, the entry concerned investors and foreign owners in Russia, and not just loans taken by Russia.

                        On points 2 and 3 - I confess, I did not know - I thought that only after the war in the late 1940s some compensation of obligations was made, but not complete.

                        Point 4 - full agreement - unfortunately it is difficult to remain calm when someone is mocking and actually lying about my homeland sad
      3. +7
        25 January 2022 21: 22
        The same can be said about the situation with the construction of the linear fleet in Turkey.
        The Ottoman Empire systematically acted in this direction for many years. Yes, she didn’t have her own shipbuilding, but she had some funds and the Ottomans first bought 2 Brandenburg-class battleships from the Germans, then
        According to the 1908 program for the Turkish fleet, it was supposed to build 6 battleships, 12 destroyers, 12 destroyers and 6 submarines. But the subsequent series of wars - the Italian-Turkish (1911 - 1912) and two Balkan (1912 - 1913) - finally devastated the treasury of the decrepit empire.

        Nevertheless, the money was found and the Turks managed to buy Rio de Janeiro from the Brazilians and order two Kinggeorges from Britain (there was only enough money for one). two battleships, WWI began and the British confiscated them.
        Which, in fact, pushed the Young Turks into the arms of the Central Powers.
  5. +7
    25 January 2022 21: 04
    Holland experienced a relapse, planning to copy the German Gneisnau:

    It is immediately clear that the author has little idea of ​​the general genesis of the project, which eventually resulted in the Slagkruiser 1047... :)
    1. +5
      25 January 2022 21: 13
      Slag cruiser 1047

    2. +1
      25 January 2022 21: 42
      In the end, it didn't turn out to be anything. Because it all ended at the stage of installing the first sheets of steel on the slipway. And the adjustments to the project continued.
  6. +3
    25 January 2022 22: 32
    Quote: Sea Cat
    HMS Vanguard entered the fleet only on August 9, 1946 and did not have time to take part in World War II

    Quote: Vladimir Lenin
    The decline of the era of battleships fell on the heyday of rocket weapons! If it weren’t for anti-ship and anti-aircraft missiles, aircraft carriers would still be wandering around alone!

    "" The Admiralty dismantled the "Vangard", the last of them, the largest, most expensive and most useless in 1961. "It is still far from the heyday of rocket weapons.
    Especially sea-based. The hydrogen bomb has already appeared.
    "Jean Bar" the French sold for scrap in 1970.
    "The United States... retained its battleships and used them quite often."
    All quotations are from Peter C. Smith, "Sunset of the Lord of the Seas". Publishing house "AST", M.2003, p. 619.
    "It seemed to me that the days of big ships were gone ... Big ship meant" too many eggs
    in one basket." After the death of "Yamato" with 3000 crew, it became clear to everyone. But aircraft carriers
    stopped wandering alone, or under the protection of a pair of destroyers from June 8, 1940. From doom
    "Glories".
  7. 0
    26 January 2022 08: 56
    Turkey has a slightly longer history with orders for battleships in Britain. The Reshadie was laid down on 01.08.1911/5/1911 at the Vickers shipyard in Barrow, and its sister ship Mahmud Reshad 1912 was laid down in December 03.09.1913. Due to financial difficulties, the contract was canceled by the Turks in 1914. BUT! "Vickers" continued to work and "Reshadie" was launched on 2/1/700. At the beginning of 1, Turkey again signs a contract for the construction of 000 battleships. But by this time, "Mahmud ..." was dismantled. The Turks are ordering a second battleship, the Fatih. According to the project, it was supposed to become larger than the Reshadie: 1914 tons heavier and 1 hp more powerful. The laying took place in June XNUMX. In connection with the beginning of World War I and Turkey's entry into the war on the side of Germany and Austria-Hungary "Reshadie" was requisitioned and it became the British "Erin", and "Fatih" was dismantled on the slipway.

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