Zircon missiles for submarines: the issue of carriers and timing

The Severodvinsk submarine launches the Zircon missile from the surface, October 4, 2021.

It was recently announced that tests of the advanced Zircon hypersonic missile on surface ships have been successfully completed, and it will soon be put into service. After that, the industry and the fleet will continue work on a new modification of this missile system, designed for submarines. These works will be completed by 2025 and will lead to the rearmament of two types of ships.

First regular carrier

On October 4, 2021, the Severodvinsk multi-purpose nuclear submarine, pr. 885, carried out two launches of Zircon experimental missiles at once from the surface and underwater positions. Soon after, information appeared in the media about further work in this direction, the timing of their completion and plans for the deployment of missiles. However, the information was received by the press from unnamed sources, and there was no official confirmation.

In early November, TASS reported that the first regular carrier of the new missiles would be the Perm multi-purpose submarine of project 885M, intended for the Pacific fleet. This is the fifth pennant of the Yasen-M type, and in its design it will be slightly different from the previous ones. The delivery of the ship to the fleet is scheduled for 2025.

Later, another TASS source in the industry clarified plans for new test launches. He claims that the flight design tests of the Zircon on submarines will resume no earlier than 2024. The next launches will be carried out from the first regular carrier in the face of the nuclear submarine Perm.

Rocket launch from under water, October 4, 2021

Soon TASS revealed possible plans for Perm and Zircon. State tests of the submarine and hypersonic anti-ship missiles are expected to be completed in 2025. After that, the ship will become part of the Navy and a new modification of the missile will be put into service.

A few days ago it became known that the state commission, having studied the results of the tests, recommended that the Zircon missile be adopted by surface ships. In this context, the media mentioned the modification of anti-ship missiles for submarines. It is alleged that the plans for it have not changed - tests will resume in 2024, and in 2025 it will be put into service.

"Ash trees" with missiles

The Russian Navy in the medium and long term will have at least nine nuclear submarines pr. 885 (M). Three such ships have already been built and handed over to the fleet, one more can be tested and enter the Navy before the end of this year. The next five pennants are in various stages of construction. The laying of the last two submarines took place in the summer of 2020, and their delivery is scheduled for 2027-28.

Previously, it was repeatedly reported that all "Ash" in the future will become carriers of modern and promising weapons, including anti-ship missiles "Zircon". The lead submarine "Severodvinsk" of the original project 885 showed similar capabilities last year, becoming an experimental ship for the first tests. The next carrier of hypersonic weapons, reportedly, will become "Perm" project 885M.

NPS "Severodvinsk"

How the rearmament of the previous Ash-M will be carried out is unclear. However, it is obvious that in one way or another all such ships will receive new missiles. The need for this is obvious, and the fundamental possibility has already been shown by missile tests at Severodvinsk.

According to known data, each nuclear submarine pr. 885 (M) carries eight universal launchers. The installation accommodates up to four anti-ship missiles "Onyx" or "Zircon"; it is also possible to use products of the Caliber family. Thus, Yaseni are already a flexible and effective tool, and the receipt of new 3M22 missiles will significantly increase all their performance.

Deep upgrade

A few years ago, it was announced that the Navy's multi-purpose nuclear submarines, pr. 949A Antey, would be upgraded according to the new 949AM project. It provides for the replacement and updating of key systems, as well as a full-fledged rearmament using modern and advanced missile systems.

RIA recently reminded about the 949AM project and its capabilities News. On January 11, citing a source in the defense complex, it wrote that the upgraded submarine would be able to carry up to 72 Caliber, Onyx, or Zircon cruise missiles. In addition, mine and missile-torpedo weapons will remain on board the ship.

Submarine K-132 "Irkutsk" before modernization

Accordingly, the total ammunition load of such a nuclear submarine will include approx. 100 units various products. This will make the updated Antei the most armed representatives of our submarine forces. The source points out that even an incomplete missile salvo from such a submarine can guarantee the destruction of a potential enemy aircraft carrier strike group.

Repairs and new weapons

The first representative of the new Project 949AM will be the Irkutsk submarine of the Pacific Fleet. Now it is undergoing appropriate repairs and modernization at the Far East Zvezda plant. The return of this ship to service is scheduled for 2022. The same enterprise has already begun similar work on the Chelyabinsk nuclear submarine from the Pacific Fleet. They will be completed no later than 2025.

In the future, it is planned to modernize all the remaining submarines. In addition to Irkutsk and Chelyabinsk, the Northern and Pacific Fleets have five nuclear submarines, Project 949A. They are quite old and must be regularly repaired and serviced. In the order of planned activities, they will also be carried out through modernization. Due to this, it will be possible not only to increase combat capabilities, but also to extend the service life by at least 10 years.

The 949AM project provides for a lot of innovations, including the processing of the weapons complex. So, in 24 airborne containers, originally made for Granit missiles, new universal launchers for modern weapons are placed. Each container will hold three missiles of the desired type - "Caliber", "Onyx" or "Zircon".

Laying of the submarine "Perm", July 29, 2016

Future for Zircons

Thus, work on Zircon continues and leads to the desired results. Tests of the missile on surface platforms have been completed, and it will be put into service in the near future. Also, work will continue on the version of the product for submarine forces. In parallel, the shipbuilding industry will prepare carriers for such missiles.

According to recent news, there will be a significant break in testing the Zircon from submarines. After successful October launches, development work continues, and the next launches will be carried out from the regular carrier in the form of the Perm nuclear submarine. However, it is not yet known to what extent such media reports correspond to the real plans of the Ministry of Defense. It is quite possible that the next flight tests will pass the previously mentioned dates and without the involvement of Perm.

How exactly the tests and other work will now go is not known for certain. At the same time, the consequences of current programs and projects are obvious. The 3M22 missile for submarines will be brought into service and put into operation. By that time, the Navy will already have several new and modernized submarines capable of carrying these weapons.

According to the results of the implementation of current plans, the Northern and Pacific Fleets will have 9 Yasen-type multi-purpose nuclear submarines and about 5-7 upgraded Anteevs at their disposal. They will be able to carry dozens of modern types of missiles, incl. hypersonic Zircons, which will give them special capabilities and allow them to maintain high combat qualities for a long time.

However, such an increase in the combat performance of the submarine fleet is still a matter of the future. To adopt the new version of the Zircon, industry and the fleet still have to work, and these activities will take about three to four years.

Comments

[Uncle lee]

and these activities will take about three to four years.

Is this enough time?

[Lech from Android.]

Maybe enough, maybe not enough, we don't know for sure.
And so the almighty AUG of the USA is being replaced by the almighty Zircons of Russia.
Evolution however , the process of improving weapons is somewhat similar to the natural process of improving biological organisms ... there is no limit to perfection.

[dauria]

And so, the almighty Zircons of Russia are replacing the almighty AUG of the USA

It just hurts. It was necessary to put the Tu-22M regiment for the sake of one trough. Yes, not simple, but with special warheads on the X-22. It doesn’t seem to be an enemy anymore, but it’s a safe target at the training ground. Somehow it just hurts, considering that their AUG air defense is already 900 km away from the order. Wonderful.

[Lech from Android.]

AUG to work at the limit of its capabilities is also not comme il faut ... 900 km is too much time for aviation.

[dauria]

900 km is too much time for aviation.

900 km is the modern line for intercepting attacking aircraft (our Tu-22s). There is loitering of interchangeable groups of fighters - tanker - AWACS aircraft. But it will be a bit tight for us with target designation. There are no more aircraft locators for 900 km. You have to get closer. Or receive from someone who poke blind kittens (submarines and aircraft carriers) with their faces into a bowl of milk. The chance that the boat itself will stumble upon a warrant is like guessing six numbers in a sports lotto. Yes, and hypersound is hypersonic, but there seem to be no special "revolutions" in the GOS. No one canceled interference and decoys. This means that an outfit of three dozen missiles must be organized, if not more.

[Lech from Android.]

Where can such a milestone of 900 km for the US AUG be at our borders?
Only in the Far East in the Pacific Ocean, neither the Baltic, nor the Black Sea, nor the Arctic are suitable ... and what is the interest of the Americans in adjusting their AUGs to Vladivostok? ... after all, the Chinese are nearby ... so the use of the United States of its aircraft carriers against us is a big question.

[dauria]

and what is the Americans' interest in fitting their AUGs to Vladivostok?

It seems that the aircraft carrier was conceived and has always been a means against enemy ships. Approach the shore under the impact of land aircraft? It will be expensive, don't you think? First of all, this is a mobile airfield of the open sea, protected by air defense and anti-aircraft defense. For there is no worse beast for an enemy surface ship than an aircraft with anti-ship missiles.
AUG fights with enemy ships on the high seas, and not with the coast. In any case, a floating airfield is rather weak, even compared to a piece of freeway on land.

[Lech from Android.]

Approach the shore under the impact of land aircraft? It will be expensive, no.

do you think?
Then how to explain the logic of Trump, who drove the US AUG to the shores of the DPRK?

[lucul]

The chance that the boat itself will stumble upon a warrant is like guessing six numbers in a sports lotto

Come on . The same Faroe-Icelandic border and North Cape - Bear Island, the Bosporus Strait, makes it relatively easy to detect AUG. In fact, only off the coast of Kamchatka, it is difficult to find an AUG for a submarine.

[Romario_Argo]

But it will be a bit tight for us with target designation.

https://typhoon-jsc.ru/index.php/production-and-services/special-purpose/mineral-me
these are export performance characteristics in 750 km
NPP Typhoon, Kaluga ZGRLS Monilit, Mineral, Monument - 950 km (!)

[mva]

Detection, not target designation. Over-the-horizon radars are generally not capable of target designation. you only have to guess about the range to the target, and not measure it.
But "Liana" - the marine space reconnaissance and target designation system (MKRTS) has not yet been launched, it is only being deployed. And the Soviet "Legend" ordered to live long ago. So, for now, zircon (if there is one at all) is nothing more than a blind kitten.

[frog]

And why didn’t they indicate 2,5 thousand? Modestly somehow .... "Why pity them, busurmans?"
And how long ago did the over-the-horizon in the mobile (ship) version draw?

[Serge-667]

And how long ago did the over-the-horizon in the mobile (ship) version draw?

In the passive path for 40 years already.

[ramzay21]

You read at what ranges ZGRLS can detect a surface target and why ZGRLS were created at all. And the Americans also have ZGRLS.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: dauria

900 km is the modern line for intercepting attacking aircraft (our Tu-22s). There is loitering of interchangeable groups of fighters - tanker - AWACS aircraft.

It will help, but only if you know which direction to expect guests from.
According to the article, I longingly recall the times of the Union, when they learned about new weapons after they were put into service. And now solid "Gop" before the jump.

[Fission power]

How jarring these sudden and impudent twitchings make you think about the Ukrainian origin of the commentator, even on the topvar. It would seem that right in the article it is written that practically nothing is known about the new weapon, information is only from unofficial sources. All that is known is that it is an actively developed hypersonic missile, the prototypes of which fly quite well and accelerate at speeds from Mach 6 to Mach 9. Yes, and in the Soviet Union they were frightened by prototypes, even if only to recall the prototypes of jet aircraft at the 1946 parade. But no! It is necessary to intersperse your comment that "oh oh, how it was before, I remember with longing, BUT NOW OUUUH THE CONTINUOUS GOP BEFORE THE JUMP IS DIRECTLY ONLY DOING WHAT WE GOPAY YYH", which very much resembles the tactics of Ukrainian pro-NATO members - the brazen use of pseudo-nostalgia for USSR to cover and disguise swearing and negativity towards today's Russia.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote from Fission Power

It would seem that right in the article it is written that practically nothing is known about the new weapon, information is only from unofficial sources

About Poisedon, Armata, SU-57 and many other successfully promoted, and also successfully tightened projects, the article does not write. But the trends are clearly the same. And there is no need to nod at 1946, everything was completely different there.

Quote from Fission Power

which very much resembles the tactics of Ukrainian pro-NATO members - the brazen use of pseudo-nostalgia for the USSR

Is there a personnel crisis in the troll farms? To whom is your statement intended, to the insane? Are pro-NATO members nostalgic for the USSR?

[Momento]

Americans release 2 new burks a year and will update 2 old ones. target zircon and df-21. and something tells me that they will succeed. they have SPY-6 essentially afar on new gallium neutrino (GaN) elements (35 times more efficient). and of course cm-3 block IIA with a range of 1500 to 2500 km and a speed of 16-18M. a new plant was built in utah for their mass production in April last year (14 launches per month for 3 months last year at the test site in utah).
so they are unlikely to just give up their advantage.

[Aviator_]

and of course cm-3 block IIA with a range of 1500 to 2500 km and a speed of 16-18M.

More about speed with range, please.

[Momento]

Operational
range
Block IA/B: 900-1200 km (560 miles)
Block IIA: 2500 km range and flight ceiling 1500km (depending on the type of target)[4][N 1]
Up to speed
3 km / s (Mach 10) Block IA / B
4.5-5 km/s (Mach 16-18) Block IIA

[Aviator_]

Thanks to. And when did they show table high results? In my opinion, this is advertising chatter, since the scramjet problem has not yet been resolved. And without it, nothing will fly at this range at such a speed. Or is it the speed in the last 100m?

[Momento]

you can rummage - the Americans have a lot of information openly. the speed of the last 100m is likely to be small. 16M is obviously the speed when working out the third stage - further by inertia) in my opinion this is an ordinary three-stage rocket with a very small payload. Therefore, it is important to hit the target physically. in general, a small warhead also gives advantages in terms of maneuvering - the lighter the rocket, the better it maneuvers. the main problem is to hit a generally small target. and in this problem just the new radar helps.

[lucul]

Americans release 2 new burks a year and will update 2 old ones. target zircon and df-21. and something tells me that they will succeed.

Get what? Die heroically? )))
Zircon is a new milestone in naval weapons.

and of course cm-3 block IIA with a range of 1500 to 2500 km and a speed of 16-18M.

Kinetic interception of Zircon? Good luck in your endeavors)))))))))

[x917nt]

Zircon is a new milestone in naval weapons.

How many Zircons do you need to sink a warship with a displacement of, say, 50 tons?

[lucul]

How many Zircons do you need to sink a warship with a displacement of, say, 50 tons?

To disable - just one Zircon in the radar is enough - in the sea the radar still cannot be repaired)))

[Charik]

or into the wheelhouse or into the elevator (how many elevators are there on the avik?)

[Kalmar]

Quote: lucul

Zircon is a new milestone in naval weapons.

There were already such milestones: "Basalts", "Granites" and the like. Well, a new milestone has appeared in anti-aircraft weapons.

Quote: lucul

Kinetic interception of Zircon?

Why not? Basically nothing gets in the way. True, it is doubtful that there is a need for this: with the loads that a hypersonic missile experiences in flight, even small damage to the HE warhead is enough for it to fall apart.

[lucul]

There were already such milestones: "Basalts", "Granites" and the like. Well, a new milestone has appeared in anti-aircraft weapons.

Laughter, and Basalts and Granites could be intercepted, but not Zircon yet.
For those who do not understand the essence - the confrontation of two ships, one with Zircon and the other without - it's like a confrontation between two people, one with a gun and the other without a gun.

[Kalmar]

Quote: lucul

and Basalts and Granites could be intercepted, but Zircon is not yet

The key word is "yet". As long as it is riveted in the right quantities (as well as carriers), they can learn.
Then, the "non-interceptibility" of "Zircon" is still speculative. Vaughn recently reported that our S-400 successfully shot down a training hypersonic target; perhaps "sworn friends" are also capable of such tricks.
Finally, interception may not be needed: the GOS of a missile during hypersonic flight will operate in very unpleasant conditions. If here the enemy CREPs start adding fun to her, it’s not a fact that the rocket will be able to hit at all.
This is me to the fact that there are a lot of options, and for every tricky fifth point there is inevitably a bolt with a left-hand thread.

Quote: lucul

it's like a confrontation between two people, one with a gun and the other without a gun

More like one with a gun and the other with a bigger gun. At the same time, one must understand that they are not having a noble duel there, but a fight in the forest with an unknown number of participants and various vile tricks on both sides. The size of the gun here is not always decisive.

[lucul]

More like one with a gun and the other with a bigger gun.

Clearly, you have not yet passed 5 stages of denial of Zircon ....

[x917nt]

one with a gun and the other without a gun

.
It's not the gun that kills, it's the bullet fired from the gun. To date, Zircon has no "bullet". So far, this is only a hull / engine and a weight and size layout instead of a warhead.

[Charik]

the American-British in Iraq threw bombs at the tanks - instead of explosives, there was concrete in the warhead

[x917nt]

Yeah ... and also, they say, instead of bombs, the Luftwaffe finally threw empty leaky barrels at the Savets trenches.

[Charik]

On the basis of the RCC X-31A, the Zvezda-Strela enterprise created the M-31 target missile. This product was the first Russian aircraft missile sold in the United States. The M-31 won a tender organized by the command of the United States ILC and in 1996, purchases were made through Boeing. Their cost amounted to 4,7 million dollars.

The tests took place at the US Marine Corps training ground at Point Mugu, and were carried out from an F-4J Phantom II aircraft equipped with a Soviet-made AKU-58 ejection device. The first launch was carried out at an altitude of 300 m, then the UR dropped to 20 m, and passed, maneuvering, about 30 km, after which the tracking radar was lost. According to reports, none of the missiles of the first batch was shot down. Further, the KMP purchased two more batches of targets. According to a representative of the Zvezda-Strela company, their tests were already carried out in an atmosphere of secrecy, and the enterprise not only failed to send its specialists to the American test site, but also did not receive specific information on the test results. In his opinion, the Americans do not yet have effective protection against supersonic small-sized anti-ship missiles. Do you have information about the interception of targets like Granite, Basalt by the Americans?

[Amateur]

gallium neutrino (GaN) elements

It would be great
to Pontecorovo
took a neutrino by the beard
(song of physicists)

Academician Pontekorovo was not lucky with neutrinos. Unlike commentator Momento.

[Momento]

Gallium nitride offers huge improvements in performance over gallium arsenide (GaAs)–based systems, which were developed for previous generations of AESA radars that are usually found on fighter aircraft. GaN-based T/R modules have the potential to provide better than five times the power per element of GaAs-based T/R modules in the same amount of space. Effectively that means that fewer high-powered GaN T/R modules are needed to match a larger number of low-power GaAs-based chips. GaN is also much more efficient in converting electrical power into radio waves.

[Amateur]

申し訳ありませんが、日本語しか読めません

[Momento]

Afar based on GaN, in addition to America, are also made by Israel, the French and the Swedes. moreover, last year the Swedes managed to assemble a new afar for flu (flu in a couple of years will have the best radar). moreover, the elements are used in cell phones - we reduce power consumption and increase radiation).
and previous GaAs emitters (now the most common in afar) are used in beloved 5G michalkovo towers.
technology is known. Last year, mass production of GaN-based transmitters also began. they have become much cheaper because it was possible to sharply increase the yield of conditioned products. previously only the military could afford it because of the cost, but in a couple of years it will be the norm for 5G towers.

[Amateur]

GaN is gallium nitride

Gallium nitride is a binary inorganic chemical compound of gallium and nitrogen. Chemical formula of GaN. Under ordinary conditions, it is a very solid substance with a wurtzite-type crystal structure. Direct-gap semiconductor with a wide bandgap - 3,4 eV (at 300 K).

Neutrino is not even close to nitrogen (N).

[Doccor18]

Quote: dauria

It just hurts somehow, considering that their AUG air defense is already 900 km away from the order.

Yeah, and for 9 Ashes and 5 Anteys there will be from 48 to 60 Virginias and 8 Astyuts, 142 Poseidon ...

[lucul]

It doesn’t seem to be an enemy anymore, but it’s a safe target at the training ground

So for amers, from weapons - the main striking force is the fleet, and the ground forces are on the sidelines. And Zircon neutralizes all the advantage of the Amer fleet - in fact, the Amer has $ 400 billion every year (to maintain the fleet) down the drain now))))

[2 Level Advisor]

if we talk about the rest of the world, they don’t have Zircon against AUGs, which are used just around the world, and not against the Russian Federation .. so the fleet, as they used to be useful, remains so .. but if it’s about us, I don’t think it’s against us - AUGs give a decisive advantage in war - they have plenty of places to deploy forces on land .. and if we say that the first strike will be from them, Zircon carriers must still survive .. this is an excellent and good rocket - but not so much that now the whole the enemy’s fleet is nothing - forever .. it’s just that they haven’t come up with counteraction yet .. and in general, my opinion is that the West has concluded that it’s unpromising to fight us by force (again, they’ll give you a blow in the head) - and therefore - economic war - even works better. .

[Tomato]

Please tell me, do you seriously believe that with the ratio of the scientific and economic potential of Russia and NATO to the allies, the Americans will not be able to do something similar as soon as they need it

[lucul]

Please tell me, do you seriously believe that with the ratio of the scientific and economic potential of Russia and NATO to the allies, the Americans will not be able to do something similar as soon as they need it

So if they could, they would have done it a long time ago)))
And now they are waiting for the Old God-banished them to merge the information))))

[Tomato]

And you do not admit that they simply did not have a need? Or do they have to repeat everything after everyone? For example, they did not have such monsters as RCC Granite. They do not have diesel submarines. Didn't pull too?

[lucul]

And you do not admit that they simply did not have a need?

These are just childish excuses - they crave their Zircon with both hands and feet.

[Tomato]

Ridiculous argument. As I understand it, the economic and scientific potential of NATO countries, allies - Japan, Korea, Sweden, Finland, Israel, etc. combined, below Russia.
I'll say more. The top of stupidity for a weaker country to initiate an arms race itself. The fate of the USSR, as it were, hints.

[lucul]

Ridiculous argument. As I understand it, the economic and scientific potential of NATO countries, allies - Japan, Korea, Sweden, Finland, Israel, etc. combined, below Russia.
I'll say more. The top of stupidity for a weaker country to initiate an arms race itself. The fate of the USSR, as it were, hints.

Have you heard anything about the inertia of thinking?
She overwhelms you. Look at the facts, not the inertia of thinking.

[Tomato]

I'm just talking about the facts - "Comparison of Russian technologies with the world level." The transition to my thinking is undoubtedly a good demagogic device. But the facts do not work.

[Santa Fe]

The top of stupidity for a weaker country to initiate an arms race itself.

Russia does not participate in the arms race, this is quite obvious from the volume of purchases of the latest military equipment

Russia imitates participation in the arms race, which contributes to the strengthening of Russian society

The fate of the USSR, as it were, hints.

The USSR perfectly existed in the conditions of an endless arms race throughout its 70 years. And fell apart for completely different reasons

[Glagol1]

And IL-2 in general, 300 pieces would be required. Weapons are becoming more effective, and soon aircraft carriers will not be deployed against strong countries at all. Only against the Papuans and countries like 404.

[2 Level Advisor]

Quote: Lech from Android.

And so the almighty AUG of the USA is being replaced by the almighty Zircons of Russia.

in the 80s, the "AUG killer" of that time was put into service with the Granite anti-ship missiles, but for some reason they did not replace the AUG ..

[Serge-667]

In the order of planned activities, they will also be carried out through modernization. Due to this, it will be possible not only to increase combat capabilities, but also to extend the service life by at least 10 years.

Yeah. Bratsk has already been renovated.

[Barberry25]

Well, given that there are already a bunch of nuclear submarines under repair, it’s quite realistic and it makes no sense

[Serge-667]

So, there are a lot of plans, who will do all this? You won’t find a normal turner here with fire during the day .. And there is only a cable route for hundreds of kilometers ... Not to mention more serious things, such as commissioning ...
Plus, this stupid idea with a reduction in the training time for crews. This is generally a terrible thing - saving on preparation. She backfires right away.

[Barberry25]

Well, about preparation, this is not for me. But about repairs, they will slowly finish it, I personally am waiting for the announcement of the development of a small nuclear submarine based on Borea, a small nuclear submarine with, say, 8-16 UVP for missiles is what the fleet needs

[Serge-667]

I doubt. In the sense that the SSBNs and the ICAPL have very different tasks. If you adapt one to the other, it will not be very high quality in the output. To fight SSBNs and all sorts of hunters like Astyut or Virginia, you need normal torpedo boats. Without any Onyx-Zircons. With powerful countermeasure equipment, with normal and higher hearing and with high speeds of silent running.
It’s easier to adapt TA to them for missile launch. Because they don't need to shoot rockets. But they really need long-range remote-controlled reliable torpedoes. Or something based on other guidance principles, such as 53-65K, only against submarines. To "fire and forget" and not too expensive.

[Barberry25]

the problem of torpedo nuclear submarines is they are flawed in terms of weapons, i.e. you can only put Caliber on them, either put UVP here to get a fairly versatile nuclear submarine, or return to 650 mm caliber TA so that promising types of weapons fit into them. Why did I mean the base in the form of Boreas - it is considered quieter than Ashes .. Well, or everything will be simple - and instead of Boreys at the end of the series they will rivet Ashes, they are of course more expensive, But the opportunity to receive 2 nuclear submarines a year .. that's cool

[Serge-667]

They are not defective. Well, why do they need rockets? The anti-submarine Caliber, which is 91P, fits perfectly into 533mm.
Again, in conditions of opposition, firing missiles is an automatic kerdyk for the shooter. You can’t even dream of any secrecy. But the silent torpedo, which sneaks up for 30 miles from the "unknown side" leaving the attacker invisible, is a topic.
Just multi-purpose should have several options, whatever one may say. Some to fight all sorts of AUGs, KUGs, others to search for and destroy submarines. Then they will go to the cherished places where American strategists can be allowed in and used to deploy their forces. And to push more tracking equipment in them so that they can fully accompany half a hundred targets, be able to work as reconnaissance and target designation through space. And most importantly, secrecy. Plus, quite an old and good method of setting mine curtains.
How was it there? Let the enemy not sleep)))

In general, I think it's time to move away from these knightly traditions and start making tricks. Type of submarine carriers of strike-type UAVs (here's a parody of an aircraft carrier for you), all sorts of sabotage gadgets and other nightmares on Elm Street ..)

[Barberry25]

that's the joke, we are building an expensive nuclear submarine and deliberately limiting its capabilities .. this is the same as now the idea "here the Europeans are making a cannon with telescopic shells of 40 mm, We need the same shells, we don't need 57 mm" .. If we are doing something, then we need to lay down the advantages in advance, so that not only "here our nuclear submarine can win in an honest duel", but you need to act meanly and have an advantage .. current torpedoes of 533 mm, at best, can provide a range of 50 km, like the enemy, and 650 mm torpedoes are already 75-100 km of range .. Not to mention the fact that versatility will allow the use of serial nuclear submarines not only for hunting, but also hypersonic strikes on enemy ships at a distance of 700-1 km outside the PLO AUG. I wrote about stealth, it is believed that Borea is better because of the water cannon

[Serge-667]

but you need to act meanly and have an advantage ..

Exactly!! I added the same thing there)) PL was created for sleaze, not fair fights. So you need to squeeze out all the possibilities))

[Barberry25]

just 650 mm will allow both missiles to use and develop new robot torpedoes, say with a quiet move and a high-speed breakthrough at the final stage ..

[KCA]

Tests on TV and in official information are a little different from what is actually happening, but does the author know about the tests that Almaz-Antey conducts? And I know that the air defense chief came personally, did you see the information about this? Read newspapers and draw conclusions, correct, experts ...

[Serge-667]

Are you finally going to stick normal air defense on the submarine? So that not this shameful MANPADS, but is it normal to demolish air search means from under the water?))

[KCA]

If you manage to come up with a radar station that works from under water, you will immediately receive both the Lenin and Stalin, and the Nobel Prize, you will wipe yourself in the toilet in millions

[Serge-667]

I kagbe was late. Everything is already there and developed. Alas(((

Interactive Defense and Attack System for Submarines
IDAS.
Nemchura developed. Already set as standard. Range approx. 10 miles.
"Sea-NK" mode (for low-tonnage marine purposes) and "sea-air" mode.
Underwater launch.
And the methods for detecting and determining the EDC are combined. Primary according to the testimony of the SAC (and he can hear air targets), electronic intelligence data (passive modes).
There are also thermal imagers and TVs with different ranges.
Guidance - Active seeker.
Launch from a standard 533 mm torpedo tube.
Actually that's all.
I won't get an award.

[KCA]

Only ADVs pass through the water, there are no miracles, to launch missiles the boat needs to float to the periscope depth, this is a very easy target, while it is aimed at the target, it will receive about a dozen missiles

[Serge-667]

while it is aimed at the target, it will receive about a dozen missiles

Why is that?
And where does the ADD, if the motor of the flyer is stupidly loud Noisy and this noise can be distinguished by conventional acoustic means of observation?
Why such difficulties are induced .. Well, it’s not like manually turning a cannon with a wheel.
And then, this is a near-field defense weapon. Nobody offers to shove the S-300 into the boat. A radius of 10-15 miles is enough to normally counteract subsonic low-maneuverable air targets.
Problems only with high-altitude scouts. It's just hard to get them with such air defense systems. And all these Orions, quadrocopters are crippled, easily.
The Germans were never fools in terms of technology.
They dress up their entire small submarine fleet with this air defense system.

There is a bearing, there is a removal, there is a triangulation and a solution for the missing EDCs.
And the rocket itself will be determined in the active search mode.

[KCA]

Triangulation, as it were, implies three points of detection of the transmitter, with the stealth mode of nuclear submarines and non-nuclear submarines, this is a little problematic, well, a maximum shot in a split second with an impulse, will they have time to detect the coordinates? Three points?

[Serge-667]

Third time trying to answer. Does not pass)))

..with the stealth mode of nuclear submarines and nuclear submarines, this is a little problematic, well, a maximum shot in a split second with an impulse,

But do not.
The readings of the HAC in the passive mode, plus the readings of the RTR in the same passive mode, plus the readings of the thermal imager, is quite enough for processing and obtaining data for firing.
Here is another problem. If this IDAS has the possibility of silently ejecting a rocket to the surface, then the moment of its launch and the operation of the active seeker will definitely be detected by means of monitoring the situation of the aircraft / helicopter.
And here it is already interesting what will happen faster - data processing and opposition from the target, or all the same defeat. The data from the airship / helicopter will have time to leave or it will flop.
Here it is already necessary to ask the RTS specialists and the Romanians. I have limited competence.
Krch, if there are specialists B / C -7, B / C -3, you need to ask them.
I think if the distance is not too long, 5-3 miles, then it is quite possible to be in time.
Even if not, and the data leaves the target, all the same, the time and opportunity to evade the submarine will remain. While they wake up there on the nearest ship, while they send someone .. There is a chance to leave and give them additional hassle in terms of expanding the search area.

[Santa Fe]

The Germans were never fools in terms of technology.

The Germans always lagged behind the British and Americans

The most advanced projects need to be sought overseas

[Serge-667]

I, apart from IDAS, do not know of a single mass-produced SAM submarine. Neither American, nor anyone else's.
I also didn’t see an adequate VNEU for submarines because of the Ocean, the Germans also made it, and, most importantly, because of the Ocean, I didn’t see intelligible missile technologies until Werner His Mother Brown agreed voluntarily, of course, to help them.
These dose beaters use a separate power supply system.
What technologies are you talking about?
Maybe Stealth-YufimTCeFF? Not?

[Santa Fe]

except for IDAS, I don’t know of a single massively implemented submarine air defense system.

The Germans have been fiddling with IDAS for 20 years and have never been accepted into service. Show off unrealized concepts, the Germans know how best

I also haven’t seen an adequate VNEU for submarines because of the Ocean, the Germans also made it

VNEU was made by all wealthy countries (Swedes, Japanese, etc.), which for various reasons cannot have a nuclear navy

And if you notice, in the States, the topic of diesel-electric submarines was closed half a century ago. Non-nuclear boats have no advantages over submarines, and are more expensive to build. Boats with VNEU are forced to be made by those who are forbidden to have nuclear submarines

Bye WernerMotherHisBrown

At least once the Germans had to succeed in something. 90 million nation with the resources of all of Europe

What technologies are you talking about?

Any area. Aviation, navy, guided weapons, space. One Martin-Marietta gave more military developments than the entire European military-industrial complex

How many drawings and specialists were taken out of Germany after the war, nothing happened. Until they got hold of the British Engine Ning

80-ton YB-49, think what year. All this flew long before stealth (1947)

[Serge-667]

Any area. Aviation, navy, guided weapons, space

Oh, give up your alternate reality.
Well, Pershing, yes. Good rocket. There is no dispute. But the rest...
The best ships until the 50s of the last century, if you subtract the 2nd World War, were built by the Germans.
American submarines from WWII are frank guano, compared to German ones, and even earlier ones, such as Goland, so generally shit is more complete.
The best fighter of World War II is the Bf.
As for cruise missiles, excuse me here, Russia has always been the first, and it will remain so.
As for VNEU ... At the moment, German boats have the most ideal characteristics in this class. And there is no need to compare them with atomic ones, because this is a completely different class and other tasks. The countries that remained on non-nuclear ones simply do not really need them, because the doctrine of the fleet does not imply their use. The same Germany simply does not need to climb into the ocean with a nuclear submarine. And to protect their shores, what is quite enough. Germany after WWII ceased to be an ocean power.
Flying wing? Yes, no one has done it. It kept flying back at the beginning of the last century, and this German prodigy, which they pass off as a "breakthrough", is green nonsense. This, excuse me, is a dead end branch of aviation development.
Stealth? Yes, a fig with oil. The Russians invented it. But in fact, this is also no longer relevant, since detection systems also do not stand still, and stealth technologies will always cost more than technologies to counter them.
The advantage of the USA is that they are the only ones who have taken the road of data processing improvement. Here, yes. They have no equal on an industrial scale.

[Santa Fe]

The Germans are poor relatives of the Anglo-Saxons. With less population and resources. In such circumstances, the backlog will be inevitable.

The German fleet has always been inferior in quality and innovation. Of the most significant ideas, there was only an electric robot

Yes, the most developed country in continental Europe. But the Germans cannot reach their older brothers
---
For any tasks, submarines are preferable to PLA. The reactor was and remains the only effective source of energy under water.

A PLA is not necessarily the size of Boreas. History knows examples of miniature Stingrays (675) and Ryubi

The Germans, Japanese, Swedes would have abandoned their crafts long ago and laid down an analogue of Ryubi. Even such a “budget” project is superior to VNEU boats in everything. And cheaper. Political issues hinder

The reverse side of the issue is the need for non-nuclear submarines with VNEU for Russia. Logically, it doesn't. We have no constitutional restrictions, we have a developed infrastructure for the construction and maintenance of the nuclear fleet

[Serge-667]

For any tasks, submarines are preferable to PLA. The reactor was and remains the only effective source of energy under water.

It's true. But there are tasks for diesel engines. What is called, the unplowed sea where they can be stuck. The only question is the price-effect ratio.
Therefore, there are different types and classes of ships. in accordance with the assigned tasks.
And we VNEU, in principle, do not really need it. We need to think more about the production of normal batteries))

[yuriy55]

... tests will resume in 2024, and in 2025 it will be put into service.

The laying of the last two submarines took place in the summer of 2020, and their delivery is scheduled for 2027-28.

They will be completed no later than 2025.

These works will be completed by 2025.

What cheerful optimism... The main thing is to survive this year 2024... We have such kind partners, ready to wait forever...

[1Alexey]

It’s not clear to me either: if the tests were carried out from Severodvinsk and they were recognized as successful, then why can’t this nuclear submarine be made the first carrier of Zircons?

[x917nt]

What's new with the Zircon anti-ship warhead? Or is it still flying with a weight-size layout?

[tralflot1832]

No matter how you twist it, TPKs with Onyxes, Calibers and Zircons are not vertically included in the 941 project. But tilted, this is a different start. Now these missiles launch vertically.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: tralflot1832

No matter how you twist it, TPKs with Onyxes, Calibers and Zircons are not vertically included in the 941 project. But tilted, this is a different start. Now these missiles launch vertically.

RTO "Nakat" project 1234.7 - 2x6 inclined launchers under the anti-ship missiles "Onyx".

[Barberry25]

Calibers are also allowed through TA, it's a matter of teaching a rocket

[rica1952]

A simple question is why our Navy needs anti-ship missiles with a range of 450 km. Long range
Zircon (modernized Onyx) will not fly, because for each move there is fuel consumption in the square, so the range is 450 km. Therefore, the appearance of the rocket was so carefully kept secret. Well, effective managers what to take from them.

[Barberry25]

if he flew at low altitude, and not at 30-40 km altitude

[KCA]

They write something different about Onyx, sometimes 600 km, sometimes more than 1000, but you know better, 450 means 450 and nothing else

[Borisych]

The topic was touched on Zircons. It’s not worth discussing what you have no idea about, except for chatter in the media. No need to stress.

[FRoman1984]

What does "Perm" mean - a regular carrier of Zircons? And what, "Severodvinsk", "Kazan", "Novosibirsk" - not full-time? Will any upgrades be needed?

[Borisych]

State secrets must be kept. And this is the law. Don't talk about what you can't talk about. Even the media understands this. The author should take this into account. Necessarily.

[George K-219]

The next five pennants are in various stages of construction. The laying of the last two submarines took place in the summer of 2020, and their delivery is scheduled for 2027-28. Pennant - sounds beautiful, but is applied to ships already in the Navy, and at the factory it is a hull or order. I think so.