Military Review

Cannons of the Penza Fortress

198

Model of the Penza fortress from the Regional Museum of Local Lore. Author's photo


We live in fortification
We eat bread and drink water;
And how fierce enemies
They will come to us for pies,
Let's ask the guests a revel:
We load the buckshot gun.
"The Captain's Daughter" A.S. Pushkin

History our homeland. And it happened that a few years ago, after the publication of one of my articles about foreign castles, they wrote that all this, of course, is good, but why don’t you write about our fortresses. About your same Penza. You probably won't be able to do it... And here - yes, there really is a problem. And it is difficult to write about those places where you yourself have not been, but the worst thing is to illustrate such articles. More text information can be found. You can also rewrite the text through the Anti-Plagiarism system with a novelty level of 100%, so that the author of the original text himself will not recognize it. But what about photographs? The fact that they are full of them on the Internet does not really mean anything. We only need photos “public domain”, that is, those in public use, and there are only one or two such photos, and it is very long and difficult to search for the authors of each photo. Therefore, it is easier not to write than to write. It turned out even worse with my Penza. My wife, who then worked at the Penza Museum of Local Lore, wrote the article “The Fiery Battle of the Penza Fortress” back in 1984 and published it in our regional newspaper. However, time passed, the materials were simply lost, so it was impossible to take and write from memory like that. But... finally managed to get into the regional archive, squeeze into the line of grandmothers and young people (!), busy looking for their own and others (!!!) genealogies, and find this newspaper and this article. Well, go to the museum and take photographs that could illustrate it. These are definitely copyrighted and there can be no claims to them.


Another view of the layout of the fortress. Author's photo

Today, the place where the wooden fortress of Penza once stood is being ennobled right before our eyes. In addition to the reconstruction of the old government house, a walking path was built over the former rampart, from which you can see both the monument to the first settler and the riverside part of the city, while today a beautiful square has been laid out on the site of the fortress itself and a monumental cathedral has been built. But it is clear that once a pine forest roared here, and it was from it that the first log fortress was built, which was built here over the river in 1663.

Moreover, it was precisely the fortress that guarded the southern borders of the Moscow state, and therefore it was saturated with military people. Evidence has been preserved of sending 100 swords to the Sura River, where the voivode Yuri Kontransky was ordered to build a city (it is interesting that they were not sabers, but swords), which indicates that there was an equestrian detachment armed in the Western manner with swords. And it was also indicated to send kindyaks to the ensigns, that is, to the banners, because without ensigns it was by no means impossible! And there were archers in the fortress, foot and horse Cossacks, swan catchers, catching swans on the river lakes to the royal table, watchmen, collars and gunners. And since there were gunners, it is clear that there were guns. But how many were there and what were they like?

Cannons of the Penza Fortress
The lock from the fortress gates and the key to them. On the left - the reed of the city archer, a horn, a remake helmet, an oriental copper shield and chain mail of the XNUMXth century, as well as a cannon and cannonballs found during excavations in the city and its environs, and buckshot. Penza. Regional Museum. Author's photo

Let's remember Pushkin's "The Captain's Daughter" and the Belogorsk fortress described there. How many guns were there? One! And yet "it" was called a fortress! But what about Penza?! After all, it was originally supposed to be larger than the Pushkin fortification.


Mail and nomadic (most likely, Iranian in origin) shield. Author's photo

It is known that the Russian cities of the era of Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich were equipped with a large number of artillery pieces, which was reported by many foreigners in their descriptions of Muscovy, who were very surprised at this. So, for example, in 1678, in 150 Russian cities subordinate to the Discharge Order, there were 3575 guns available! Moreover, all the guns differed in purpose and place of installation. So, there were cannons of the "solar battle", located at the "soles" of the walls and towers, and firing through the loopholes, and "mounted" ones - firing from the walls and towers through the parapet.


Cast iron cannon with dolphin handles for lifting the barrel. Author's photo

It is good that in the Russian state even then there was a developed bureaucratic system in which literally everything was recorded. For example, the governors had to submit to the Discharge Order all the data about their cities: the “List list” (how much there is in the city) and the “City estimate” (data on walls and towers). From the report of the voivode Ivan Safonov, written by him on June 28, 1701, we know that in Penza in the passing and deaf towers (these stood at the corners) in the upper and lower "battles" in seven towers there were nine cannons, and in two - two guns. Nine cannons were in machine tools (of which four were copper), five wall-mounted iron (that is, cast iron), and two more copper shotguns two arshins long (that is, about 142 cm). In total, therefore, 16 guns.


Another one of the same gun. She lost one “dolphin somewhere… Photo by the author

The guns had a large supply of gunpowder, lead (for buckshot) and cast iron cannonballs, as well as fuses for fuses, the inventory of which, again, has been preserved until our time:

“In the state-owned cellar and an bar (precisely “an bar” - auth.) rubble and cannon gunpowder 182 pounds 27 pounds, lead 239 pounds 4 pounds with a half pound, 895 cannonballs, iron shot 20 hryvnias, hand and cannon wick 69 pounds ... »

Let's estimate the size of the specified ammunition load: 895 cores for 14 guns (excluding shotguns) - it turns out to be somewhere around 63 cores per gun!


A cast-iron cannon and next to it are a cannonball and grapeshot bullets. Small guns might not have handles. Author's photo

That is, compared with the Pushkin Belogorsk fortress, the fortress city of Penza was more than well armed. The nomads who attacked her never managed to take her. The Penza Regional Museum of Local Lore has an interesting collection of cast-iron cannons of that time and cannonballs of various calibers. They are mostly small in size, and, most likely, such guns were mounted on parapets on the walls. There were also swivel guns, similar to naval ones, which were convenient in that they could be moved from place to place and installed exactly where they were most needed.


Copper cannon ("from cannon copper") caliber 70 mm from the Penza Regional Museum of Local Lore. Please note that the barrel bore is drilled with a deviation, so it was still necessary to adapt to shoot from such a gun! Most likely, she came to the city and got as defective. Such a gun was not suitable for a ship or an army, but they thought it would do for a suburban fortress! Author's photo

Well, the most serious test that the Penza fortress has ever been subjected to precisely as a fortress was the Kuban pogrom that broke out in 1717, that is, a few years after the return of Azov to the Turks after the unsuccessful Prut campaign of 1711. Until this year, the steppes did not particularly bother the southern borders. But then they began their raids again. A few notch features seemed to serve as a reliable defense against attacks. But, as you know, the Prut campaign ended in failure for Russia, and the "southerners" immediately grew bolder. And this pogrom turned out to be unexpected and, because of this, the most terrible to which the lands of the Penza province were subjected. The Kuban came in early August through the Uzinsky camp of the Penza district, that is, through the part of the Saratov province adjacent to Penza, breaking through the security cordon. Their main forces fell on Penza, and relatively small detachments scattered throughout the Penza district. The alarm sounded in the fortress. The inhabitants of the surrounding villages and the township rushed to save themselves behind its walls. The Kubans approached the fortress on August 3 and besieged it until the 7th, but, as during the pogrom of 1680, they could not take it. They were met with cannon shots, archers and armed villagers stood on the walls, so they did not dare to storm the city. But neither the ramparts nor the notches stopped the Kubans, and they ruined a lot of villages, moving north towards Saransk. True, not all villages were devastated throughout this space: often one or two were destroyed, while the neighboring ones remained untouched. The nomads did not reach Saransk for 30 miles. From the walls of the fortress, people have already seen the glow of burning villages and villages, but then the Kuban turned back.


Cannonball caliber 70 mm, found on the territory of the Penza fortress. Museum of the Russian Army. Penza. Author's photo

The Kuban pogrom cost Russia very dearly: 174 people were killed, and 3402 people were driven into captivity. And it's not all losses. As a curious feature of this raid, it should be noted that the Kuban had local Tatars as guides. Documents of the Saransk archive name a number of Tatar villages, whose inhabitants went "to the Kuban".


Reconstruction of the fortress Penza. It supposedly looked like this in 1663. The earliest description of the fortress is contained in the inventory made in 1703 by the voivode Prince S.I. Putyatin: "wooden pine, chopped into one quadrangular wall ... Along the walls and on the corner 8 towers, including 2 passers-by, 2 caches with wells ... The measure of the city wall is 113 fathoms in one direction, 103 fathoms in the other direction, in the third direction - 106 sazhens, in the fourth - 109 sazhens. The height of the city wall and with regions 2 sazhens with a half arshin". The total length of all walls was 431 fathoms (931 meters). The log wall crowned a high shaft, which was preceded by a deep ditch, between the ditch and the shaft there was a berm up to 1 sazhen wide, which ensured the stability of the inner wall of the ditch. Inside the fortress, the cathedral church of the All-Merciful Savior and the houses of the cathedral clerks were built, under the church - a powder entrance, then - the voivodship house, the voivodship yard, the guardhouse, food barns, an artillery yard, a shower office, a hut for convicts. Rice. A. Sheps

Despite the devastation of half of the province, the Kuban pogrom did not stop the colonization of the region, and it continued at the same accelerated pace as before. And the government, interested in the development of the region, gave the settlers not only money (“for settlement”), but also ... a squeaker with a supply of gunpowder and lead!
Author:
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  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 January 2022 06: 08
    +12
    Thanks Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    Although I would venture to suggest that the cannon “with a defective barrel” is related to a much later period than the 17th century described in your article. However, the wheels and carriage are also not native. Perhaps the barrel of the gun was made during the reign of Paul at best, and more likely Alexander or even Nicholas.
    1. kalibr
      22 January 2022 07: 21
      +9
      Good morning! There is no doubt she is a later case.
      1. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 22 January 2022 08: 40
        +7
        I join in the words of gratitude. Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich. For Saturday, that's it. It's interesting and not politicized.
        1. depressant
          depressant 22 January 2022 09: 13
          +7
          Well, okay, Igor, persuaded! Shout "How long!" out of habit I won't wassat )))
          Moreover, we already have summer, only minus 4 in the yard, such a joy!
          Good luck to those present and absent too! )))
          1. The leader of the Redskins
            The leader of the Redskins 22 January 2022 10: 08
            +9
            Minus four...
            Remembered the joke:
            An African student studying in Russia is asked by his fellow tribesmen whether it is true that the winter in Russia is cold?
            - No, he says, not always ... The one that is green, that one is still nothing, but the white one ... that one is very cold!
            1. depressant
              depressant 22 January 2022 10: 25
              +5
              Come on! Let them eat now, I saw yesterday ("Pulse of the Earth"), what kind of icicles they have. Even we don't have that. Algiers, Saudi Arabia... Cars, trees, houses - everything is completely covered with icicles at least 50 cm long, in many places intertwining in beautiful oriental patterns. I've never seen anything like this here - so to them! Let them feel what life is like for us.
            2. Catfish
              Catfish 22 January 2022 16: 36
              +5
              Well, it's still the Fritz "appreciated" in the winter of forty-one. laughing

              1. depressant
                depressant 22 January 2022 18: 49
                +5
                Kostya, do not believe it, exactly such icicles now hang in the southern latitudes!
                1. Bolt cutter
                  Bolt cutter 23 January 2022 01: 29
                  +3
                  +8 in Weston-super-Mare. Terrible British winter.
          2. LisKat2
            LisKat2 22 January 2022 18: 31
            +4
            We have 0 degrees all day and light snow
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 22 January 2022 19: 15
              +2
              Kate hi , where do you have it? We have minus 5 near Ryazan and light snow.
              1. LisKat2
                LisKat2 22 January 2022 21: 32
                +3
                Bad Caucasus. Suburb of Krasnodar
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 22 January 2022 22: 40
                  +3
                  If a suburb of Krasnodar is the North Caucasus, Ekaterina, let me equate St. Petersburg with Spitsbergen ?!
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 23 January 2022 01: 00
                    +3
                    Katerina has written Bad Caucasus. smile
    2. LisKat2
      LisKat2 22 January 2022 17: 49
      +6
      "Paul's at best" - late 18th early 19th century
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 January 2022 19: 15
        +3
        Quote: LisKat2
        "Paul's at best" - late 18th early 19th century

        Drilling gun barrels began at the end of the reign of Catherine II, but everywhere the method began to be used during the war with Napoleon. Arakcheev did a lot for this.
        1. LisKat2
          LisKat2 22 January 2022 21: 35
          +3
          Actually, Arakcheev was a little slandered
        2. CHEREDA73
          CHEREDA73 22 January 2022 21: 37
          +3
          How about before that? What was the technology?
          If you can, briefly describe or throw a good link, please. hi
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 January 2022 09: 01
            +3
            Surprisingly, those books that I have in my library, I did not find on the Internet. From the available interpretations History of the material part of the artillery of A. Nilus.
            So briefly.
            Initially, bronze (copper) guns were cast with a finished bore. The Turks even practiced making tools at the site of the siege. The technology is similar to the bell. The gun barrel channel was forced from a log coated with "lard", tied with a rope and re-coated with refractory clay. After casting, the log was taken out, the remains of the rope were burned out.
            From the 16th century patterns appear, and later forms. The so-called "three-part cast-iron mold" was used at the Ural factories. Top, bottom of the gun and blank for the bore. The form was collected, coated with clay from the inside.
            Then they started drilling. In Europe, the first were the French and Austrians. We have Narts, later Anosov.
            Now the form of pouring the cast-iron cannon was two-component.
            Well, somewhere like that.
            Look for the "encyclopedia of the history of artillery" I don't remember the authors. When I'm in the country, I'll definitely take a picture of the cover.
            1. Liam
              Liam 23 January 2022 09: 13
              -1
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              Initially, bronze (copper) guns were poured with a finished bore

              How much interesting and unknown can be read in the open spaces of VO ....
              1. Snail N9
                Snail N9 22 February 2022 16: 02
                0
                Another thing is curious. Until now, there is no encyclopedia describing the cannon business from its inception to the present. Moreover, with great difficulty one can find scattered materials on the technology of cannon production in the Middle Ages and up to the XNUMXth century. As well as the production of gunpowder and explosives for artillery. And about the production of fuses and remote tubes for ammunition, in general you will find materials. Only Griner's books save.
            2. CHEREDA73
              CHEREDA73 23 January 2022 15: 30
              +3
              After casting, the log was taken out, the remains of the rope were burned out.

              Thanks, Vladislav, for the description. I looked on the Internet, but they offer good books for money, and there is enough information on combat use, but not on manufacturing technology.
              I did not find how the hollow barrel obtained after casting was brought "to mind". After all, there should have been machining after casting? It is necessary to obtain the necessary accuracy of the bore and the necessary roughness. Or both cast and used? Didn't find any information.
              I can clearly imagine the modern technical process for making a hole using modern drills, countersinks, reamers, hones. But this is not applicable to the 17th and 18th centuries. hi
            3. CHEREDA73
              CHEREDA73 24 January 2022 00: 27
              +3
              Amazing, Vladislav! I think you will be interested!
              I was looking for information on the manufacture of a cannon barrel channel at 17-18 you. (Before drilling in blanks according to the Moritz method). And I stumbled upon... LEATHER GUNS! Wouldn't have believed it if it weren't for the references to the documents.
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 January 2022 04: 39
                +2
                For the sake of interest, google the "leather shoe" of the Swedish king!
                Regards, Vlad!
  2. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 22 January 2022 07: 03
    +6
    Cannons of the Penza Fortress
    Just like "The Guns of Navarone".
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    1. kalibr
      22 January 2022 07: 30
      +6
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      "The Guns of Navarone".

      I also remembered this name ... Why come up with something ...
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 22 January 2022 07: 40
        +7
        I visited the places where the filming took place. The cinema made such an advertisement for the island that the locals, hitherto unnamed cove, "christened" Anthony Queen Bay. Freediving is good there, but noisy - a youth place.
        1. depressant
          depressant 22 January 2022 10: 30
          +4
          No, not a movie - read a long time ago. The content was forgotten, the impression remained - the terrible power and futility of the act. Night, a wall in front of your eyes, clouds of smoke and the splash of sea water...
          The terrible is repressed from the memory, the impression is never.
  3. Olgovich
    Olgovich 22 January 2022 07: 23
    +5
    .
    The Kuban came in early August through the Uzinsky camp of the Penza district, that is, through the part of the Saratov province adjacent to Penza, breaking through the security cordon

    Too far gone - over thousands km and this is already the 18th century!

    In total, 18 thousand prisoners were captured - a real ruin ....

    on the way back, the Kubans were routed by the Kalmyks.
    1. kalibr
      22 January 2022 07: 33
      +8
      The Penza Territory was then depopulated by 30% ... That's how expensive such raids were.
    2. Flooding
      Flooding 22 January 2022 08: 25
      +8
      Quote: Olgovich
      on the way back, the Kuban were defeated by the Kalmyks

      they write that the Cossacks, who fled from the Don after the suppression of the Bulavin uprising, also came with the horde.
      Surely among them were runaway Russian peasants.
      Allegedly, even this Cossack army was at the hand of Ignatius Nekrasov himself.
      1. LisKat2
        LisKat2 22 January 2022 18: 10
        +5
        Nekrasov with his Cossacks went to Turkish territory. The Turks called them: "Ignat Cossacks" by the name of Ignatius Nekrasov
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 22 January 2022 18: 41
          +4
          Quote: LisKat2
          Nekrasov with his Cossacks left for Turkish territory

          seat of Nekrasovites in the Kuban 1708-1741.
          1. LisKat2
            LisKat2 22 January 2022 21: 37
            +2
            In the aisles of the then Ottoman Empire
        2. Flooding
          Flooding 22 January 2022 19: 14
          +1
          Quote: LisKat2
          Nekrasov with his Cossacks left for Turkish territory

          very formally, we can assume that the Turkish
          since the Kuban was under the Crimean Khanate, which in turn was a vassal of the Ottoman Empire
          1. LisKat2
            LisKat2 22 January 2022 21: 41
            +1
            "vassal of the Ottoman Empire", which is not essential
  4. Konnick
    Konnick 22 January 2022 08: 24
    +7
    It seems that the fortress of Penza was an outpost of the Simbirsk line, in front of which the Kuban stopped. When you go through Saransk to Ulyanovsk, it turns out that you are going exactly along the old road that was in front of the rampart and periodically you see the remains of this grandiose structure that blocked the Nogai Way. In the area of ​​​​the former fortresses of Atemar, Surskoye, there are villages with the speaking names of Soldiers, Vorotniki, Reitarskoye ... My father was from Vorotniki, my ancestors were from old house Cossacks, who the house Cossacks were never figured out. And the serif line still performed its security role. By the way, the governor of the Saransk fortress at one time was Peter Lermont, the ancestor of the poet.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 22 January 2022 09: 00
      +8
      Fulfilled. For the cavalry, forest clearings were a serious problem.
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 22 January 2022 09: 05
        +6
        For the cavalry, forest clearings were a serious problem.

        In this area, forests began, where such notches could be made, and to the south there was still forest-steppe, although there were good pine forests in the area where the Sura flowed.
    2. kalibr
      22 January 2022 11: 55
      +4
      Quote: Konnick
      which was in front of the shaft and periodically you see the remains of this grandiose structure,

      Yes, the shafts are still preserved ...
    3. Flooding
      Flooding 22 January 2022 17: 38
      +4
      Quote: Konnick
      who are house Cossacks and did not figure it out

      probably a local variant of the name of the local Cossacks.
      they were called differently.
      and regimental, and stanitsa, and white-house, and sentry
  5. Free wind
    Free wind 22 January 2022 09: 02
    +4
    We went to the east, mastered the land, probably not from a good life. they were looking not only for forests rich in fur-bearing animals, but also for minerals. Because Russia was extremely poor on them. There was no copper, no iron, no coal, all this was bought abroad, for furs .. When the Urals only began to be mastered, they gradually began to recover.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 22 January 2022 09: 53
      +2
      We went to the east, mastered the land, probably not from a good life. they were looking not only for forests rich in fur-bearing animals, but also for minerals. Because Russia was extremely poor on them. There was no copper, no iron, no coal, all this was bought abroad, for furs .. When the Urals only began to be mastered, they gradually began to recover.

      How many wonderful discoveries are to us ...

      1. Undecim
        Undecim 22 January 2022 11: 07
        +7
        As I understand it, the minus was put by those who could not read the text. It turns out that there are some.
        1. depressant
          depressant 22 January 2022 12: 02
          +5
          It turns out that there are some.

          I do not think. And so she twisted the phone, and in such a way and in a similar way increased and decreased the image - unreadable! But this is not a reason to put a minus, it is readable from a computer screen for sure. The reason is your title of expert. So what is it about, Viktor Nikolaevich? wassat )))
          If in a nutshell, then?
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 22 January 2022 12: 15
            +2
            The fact that Russia is not at all poor in listed minerals in the European part. Therefore, the crying of the individual is inappropriate.
            1. depressant
              depressant 22 January 2022 13: 25
              +4
              Therefore, the crying of the individual is inappropriate.

              Agree. If offhand, then even without the Ural Mountains and even the south of Russia, there is a lot of things in Central. Suffice it to recall the iron ores alone. In the 10s, I came across a message that technical diamonds had been explored. There are peat, brown coal and everything for the production of cement. Much was not developed because the population density was high, undesirable.
              1. CHEREDA73
                CHEREDA73 22 January 2022 21: 01
                +2
                Suffice it to recall the iron ores alone.

                What deposits are you talking about, Lyudmila Yakovlevna?
                1. depressant
                  depressant 22 January 2022 21: 13
                  +1
                  Well, offhand, at least the Kursk magnetic anomaly. There is another anomaly. And in fact, not enough of everything. Oil is not about Muscovy.
                  1. CHEREDA73
                    CHEREDA73 22 January 2022 21: 26
                    +1
                    KMA is the largest deposit on the European territory of Russia, it is true. And when did industrial developments begin there?
                    So it's all past the 16th and 17th centuries.
                    1. Free wind
                      Free wind 22 January 2022 21: 57
                      +3
                      The first samples of ore were obtained from a well in 1923, from a depth of 135 meters. The first mine was founded in 1935. 1939 THE FIRST 5000 tons were sent for smelting.
                      1. CHEREDA73
                        CHEREDA73 22 January 2022 22: 08
                        +2
                        It's like that...
                        Even if it is known about the deposit, it is not a fact that something can be mined there at a certain historical stage. And returning to the beginning of the discussion, what period are we talking about? Right....
                        And what Viktor Nikolaevich brought, it became possible to extract much, much later ...
                    2. depressant
                      depressant 22 January 2022 22: 29
                      +2
                      Belgorod is still there. The Russian Plain does not and did not have mountains, it is not at the junction of lithospheric plates. And there were no volcanoes erupting. As a result, there is not much to dig here. What you have, you can't live. That's why we moved east. And in general, the geographical position is nowhere worse, not the intersection of trade routes. From the Varangians to the Greeks or the Silk Road - neither the Varangians nor the Chinese need this, they have long found workarounds. If you collect all the Russians in the center, they will have nothing to feed on. And it wasn't. Given the national passive character.
                      1. CHEREDA73
                        CHEREDA73 22 January 2022 22: 44
                        +1
                        And besides, Lyudmila Yakovlevna, the lands of the modern Belgorod region were militarily very unsafe, in fact, already the Wild Field. What kind of booty could there be in the 16-17 centuries? good
                      2. depressant
                        depressant 22 January 2022 22: 46
                        +1
                        Did I say anything about the 16th and 17th centuries? )))
                      3. CHEREDA73
                        CHEREDA73 22 January 2022 22: 52
                        +3
                        So it was originally about the Penza fortress and the shortage of metals in the Moscow state ...
                        It often happens that the origins of the discussion are forgotten. smile
                      4. CHEREDA73
                        CHEREDA73 22 January 2022 23: 02
                        +2
                        We went to the east, mastered the land, probably not from a good life. they were looking not only for forests rich in fur-bearing animals, but also for minerals. Because Russia was extremely poor on them. There was no copper, no iron, no coal, all this was bought abroad, for furs .. When the Urals only began to be mastered, they gradually began to recover.
                        Here, this is where it all started. Viktor Nikolaevich challenged...
                      5. depressant
                        depressant 22 January 2022 23: 14
                        +1
                        Right. Viktor Nikolaevich disputed. He is very harmful wassat )))
                      6. CHEREDA73
                        CHEREDA73 22 January 2022 23: 27
                        +3
                        Yes, there is, of course. But he knows a lot. Today he just got excited, laying out data for the 19th century in relation to the 16th-17th centuries. It happens, there is nothing like that. drinks
                        I remembered Tupolev how he behaved in such situations ... I won’t talk now smile
                      7. depressant
                        depressant 22 January 2022 23: 33
                        +1
                        Connoisseurs - they are! Just give them a theme. Some of them will expound knowledge at length, so you wave your hands at them, they say, enough, enough! Others will blame you for not knowing what they know. Like, how so? And they will tell you things that they will never need, but if they need it, then you must. And both kinds of them want to teach you. It's good?
                        Well, of course!!! wassat )))
                2. Alex013
                  Alex013 23 January 2022 13: 16
                  +4
                  Swamp ores. Around Vyksa, Gus-Zhelezny, etc.
          2. LisKat2
            LisKat2 22 January 2022 18: 43
            +3
            "And so twisted, and so" similarly to me. I really wanted to read it, Viktor Nikolaevich always puts out interesting things, but I read it with difficulty, I was more precise: "copper ores." I don't give a minus either.
            Probably put from personal feelings
        2. vladcub
          vladcub 22 January 2022 18: 20
          +3
          Vic. Nick, good evening. "who could not read the text." There are two options here: 1)
          Not the perfection of electronic devices.
          2) not literate people got caught. But this is unlikely
        3. Free wind
          Free wind 22 January 2022 19: 51
          +4
          Understand, it really wasn’t, Copper in the European part of Russia is mined on the Kola Peninsula and in Ossetia, iron ore was collected in swamps, the extraction was scanty. Kursk ore was not discovered then.. There is no coal, blacksmiths used charcoal. Nobody used peat. So think for yourself. Yes, and the table is about 1880, but the conversation is about 1600. Why did Peter 1 order the bells to be removed from the churches? There is nothing to pour guns from. Malachite in the Urals is all gone for copper. the table is not readable at all, although the monitor is healthy. hi
          1. CHEREDA73
            CHEREDA73 22 January 2022 20: 51
            0
            Support.
            Here you need to look at the statistics on export-import for the 16-17th century, if there is data, of course. Instead of focusing on data that came out three hundred years later.
          2. Undecim
            Undecim 22 January 2022 21: 01
            0
            Realize it wasn't real

            I don't understand. Everything was. In Europe, iron ore was mined in the mine method in the XNUMXth century.
            1. CHEREDA73
              CHEREDA73 22 January 2022 21: 23
              0
              I don't understand. Everything was. In Europe, iron ore was mined in the mine method in the XNUMXth century.

              What does ore mining in Europe have to do with it?
              Ivan 3, not from a good life for three to nine lands in the Urals, and then sent intelligence to find out where the ores were. What for it if "everything was"?
              Kostomarov also writes what was imported in the 16th and 17th centuries. Metals first. So there was a shortage.
              1. Undecim
                Undecim 22 January 2022 21: 50
                0
                What does ore mining in Europe have to do with it?

                And you read the book "Bermannus sive de re Metallica" by Agricola.
                Ivan 3, not from a good life for three to nine lands in the Urals, and then sent intelligence to find out where the ores were. What for it if "everything was"?

                Could send closer. Someone to send.
                1. CHEREDA73
                  CHEREDA73 22 January 2022 21: 51
                  0
                  Your answer is not to the point of the question. Failed.
                  1. Undecim
                    Undecim 22 January 2022 21: 55
                    +1
                    For God's sake. You just didn't see her. And the last time I was worried about getting credits was about forty years ago.
                    1. CHEREDA73
                      CHEREDA73 22 January 2022 22: 00
                      +1
                      Viktor Nikolaevich, people here trust you strongly, including me. Reading your 10000 comments and finding a lot of good stuff in there. But, in this case, you got excited by posting data that is relevant for the time that came later. When other historical conditions developed and technologies became different.
                      1. Undecim
                        Undecim 22 January 2022 22: 33
                        +2
                        I didn't get excited. In any case, this time. After all, deposits of iron ore in the area, for example, the Belokolodets River, existed at least from the Pliocene. A mine appeared there at the beginning of the XNUMXth century. Didn't think why?
                      2. CHEREDA73
                        CHEREDA73 22 January 2022 22: 49
                        0
                        Returning to the beginning of the discussion:
                        It was about the fact that the Moscow state was expanding, and, among other things, new lands were needed for the sake of minerals in them, because there were problems with this in the Moscow state. You posted data for the end of the 19th century and say that "no, everything happened."
                        And now we've moved on to the Pliocene...
                        Okay, I understand everything. hi
                      3. Undecim
                        Undecim 22 January 2022 23: 04
                        +1
                        Okay, I understand everything.

                        Unfortunately, it's not clear. I am trying to convey to you that many of what you call "problems" were nearby, but the lack of an appropriate scientific and technical base in Russia, which by that time already existed in Europe, did not allow these "problems" to be solved.
              2. Alex013
                Alex013 23 January 2022 13: 19
                +3
                All right. The lack of resources for metallurgy stimulated the development of the Urals
    2. Olgovich
      Olgovich 22 January 2022 10: 16
      0
      Quote: Free Wind
      they were looking not only for forests rich in fur-bearing animals, but also for minerals.

      I think they were looking, first of all, for land: people received fertile plots in a region with a wonderful climate, rich in water and forest (in the northeast) resources.
  6. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 22 January 2022 10: 39
    +6
    During the Pugachev rebellion, the fortresses were divided into three categories. The first, most fortified and with powerful artillery on the western borders, against the European armies. The second on the south against the Turks. Their armies are weaker, but there are many Europeans in the service (at that time they were most often French), including engineers.
    Well, the third in the East against the nomads.
    And the XNUMXth century is a movement to the south, for the development of the fertile lands of the Wild Field. Fortresses are needed to hide civilians in them during raids.
    There are, indeed, a lot of guns, of small caliber. In the descriptions, there are from two and a half hryvnias to half a hryvnia. Who does not know, the hryvnia in this case is the Russian pound - about 400 gr. Hryvnia, respectively, half a pound. In essence, no more is needed against the nomads. It's not stone walls to pick.
  7. Undecim
    Undecim 22 January 2022 10: 44
    +6
    So, there were cannons of the "solar battle", located at the "soles" of the walls and towers, and firing through the loopholes, and "mounted" ones - firing from the walls and towers through the parapet.

    Cannons did not shoot through the parapet, Vyacheslav Olegovich.
    1. Old Michael
      Old Michael 22 January 2022 18: 01
      +2
      Victor Nikolaevich, good evening!

      And in the picture in the book, for an hour, is it not the Nizhny Novgorod Kremlin?

      hi
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 22 January 2022 23: 11
        +2
        Picture from the reference book, because the object is not marked.
  8. tank66
    tank66 22 January 2022 11: 11
    +6
    Thank you for the article! ... 182 poods of gunpowder. hm. and decent calibers .. What a roar it was possible to arrange winked 100 years earlier, Ermak Timofeevich shooed Siberian autochthons with much smaller items. Here is my "favorite" - in the Historical Museum No. 1 in Moscow. somehow stuck on it

    oarlock cannon, on it is the inscription "Yak fart and there is no hail" laughing
    1. LisKat2
      LisKat2 22 January 2022 17: 29
      +4
      "Yak fart and no hail" maybe I'm wrong, but the cannon is cast in the south: "yak" looks like Ukrainian.
      What period is this gun?
      1. tank66
        tank66 23 January 2022 07: 58
        +1
        The cannon was in an exposition like "... the anniversary of the conquest of Siberia by Yermak" \ about 2015 \ could not find out the details, + 2 grandmas followed me and angrily hissed that it was impossible to shoot ... But the inscription was clearly cast, and not "scratched "- that is, it was convex. About the south - yes, easily - Yeryoma has half of the" gang " laughing from barracks \ Cossacks \.
        I’ll add a twist, I can’t resist \ mind you, the moderator can’t swear \ --- Ermak Timofeich’s camping cup from the same exposition, with a chased inscription "DRINK, damn it, while there is"
    2. vladcub
      vladcub 22 January 2022 17: 37
      +4
      The gun has a peculiar sense of humor.
  9. depressant
    depressant 22 January 2022 11: 47
    +5
    Such fortresses as Penza could fall only as a result of betrayal. This is well shown in D. Sillov's book "Evil City". I mean Kozelsk. If you remove the elements of fantasy, then the skillful confrontation between the Russian fortress and the Tatar-Mongols is perfectly described.
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 22 January 2022 13: 38
      +7
      Quote: depressant
      Such fortresses as Penza could fall only as a result of betrayal.

      The most common fortress, so to speak, is a "serial sample".
      You can take any fortress, especially in the era of artillery. Kazan, Polotsk were cooler in every way, and they were taken by no means by betrayal,
      It all depends on how the business is organized. The Mongols took cities with the help of stone throwers, Henry V of England - with the help of a dozen cannons, Ivan the Terrible needed hundreds of them already.
      And Kozelsk... I haven't read Sillov, but the amount of literature he published is impressive. I do not think that his work can serve as a source of knowledge in the field of history.
      Kozelsk held out not because it was a super fortress with a super garrison and a super commander. It was an ordinary town, much weaker than Ryazan, Vladimir, Kiev. And the people there were also ordinary and there were much fewer of them and they were much worse armed. The reasons for such a long siege are completely different and you can understand them simply by looking at the start and end dates of this siege.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 22 January 2022 14: 21
        +6
        just by looking at the start and end dates of that siege.
        Mudslide.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 22 January 2022 17: 26
          +4
          Exactly.
          Batu was simply "stuck" near Kozelsk.
          Prior to that, on the way from Torzhok, he passed Rzheva, Smolensk and Bryansk, and near Kozelsk he had to stand up and wait until the mudslide passed.
          We know only about one single attempt by the Mongols to storm Kozelsk - and it turned out to be successful. Before the arrival of Kadan and Buri Batu, the city did not even try to attack.
          The 4000 losses of the Mongols near Kozelsk, noted in our annals, are most likely not fiction, but the total number of Batu’s losses near Kozelsk during the entire time that he stood there - almost two months without fodder and provisions, losses from hunger and disease should have simply go off scale.
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 22 January 2022 16: 13
        +7
        Mish, hello. "The amount of literature published by him is impressive. Quantity does not always equal quality.
        For example: Fomenko and Co. or the Samsonov brothers, they already have a solid number of publications, but strike me with thunder if their "imperishable" is comparable to N. M. Karamzin
    2. Undecim
      Undecim 22 January 2022 15: 15
      +6
      Fortresses like Penza could only fall as a result of betrayal.

      This is if it was besieged by the Papuans.

      Such troops could only rely on traitors or cunning and dexterity. And since about the time of the Peloponnesian War, there have been no impregnable fortresses, in principle.
      1. depressant
        depressant 22 January 2022 15: 29
        +6
        You haven't read Syllov...
        You said it so seriously, Viktor Nikolaevich, that I laughed out loud. Sillov is the author of many books on street fighting techniques and knives. But most of all, he is the author of books about the Pripyat stalker zone. This is social fiction. You, as a serious person, take such a thing into your hands - it's a shame. And I read it like books written in Aesopian language. As for the book "Evil City", it falls out of the general series. There was no repetition of historical reconstruction.
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 22 January 2022 15: 51
          +5
          Sillov is the author of many books on street fighting techniques and knives.

          Sillov is a typical representative of a large cohort of modern businessmen who managed to figure out in time that the failure of social intelligence can be successfully used to build their own wealth.
          I am well acquainted with such a "power" who built his own well-being on exactly the same foundation, only he did not write books.
          Regarding the fortification of the Forces, no one calls him anything.
          1. depressant
            depressant 22 January 2022 16: 00
            +2
            Well, yes... The whole of humanity is flying into the failure of social intelligence. Tree roots stick out from the clay walls of the failure. Those who are lucky manage to grab them, and some are lucky to be taller. The rest fly further, huddling together at the bottom, and the top ones on this heap consider themselves to be in charge. And the earth slowly absorbs the lower ones. Actually everyone. Even those who cling to the roots. Because the grace of the earth is for everyone, no one will leave offended wassat wassat )))
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 22 January 2022 16: 10
              +5
              The whole of humanity is flying into the failure of social intelligence.

              Nothing like this. Humanity follows the path outlined by the demiurge. And failure is the lot of individuals with insufficient psychological resources. Instead of Silov, read Thorndike.
              1. depressant
                depressant 22 January 2022 17: 16
                +3
                Viktor Nikolayevich, dear, do you really think that I read Sillov and three dozen of the same authors in order to draw "wisdom" there? I am having fun! For fun, you know? They famously twist plots, and, by the way, all the wisdom in various Schopenhauers and Berdyaevs, as well as in modern newly-minted sages, who send me to slide along newfangled lines of probability and be horrified by the diverse and sophisticated treachery of the owners of this world - all this is there present. But the advantage, I repeat, is in the amusingness of the plots and the attractiveness of the characters.
                I am a person who needs to be entertained! Because my curiosity is irrepressible childish, and children are taught through the game wassat )))
                1. Undecim
                  Undecim 22 January 2022 18: 31
                  +4
                  For fun, you know?

                  Better read Berazinsky.
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 22 January 2022 18: 48
                    +2
                    What is he talking about? Will it be boring to teach me what I myself know?
                    1. Undecim
                      Undecim 22 January 2022 19: 23
                      +2
                      No, he will not teach you, he will entertain you.
                      1. depressant
                        depressant 22 January 2022 19: 48
                        +2
                        Now I’ll go and see who Berazinsky is, and if anything, I’ll pester you viciously with quotes from him)))
      2. Catfish
        Catfish 22 January 2022 16: 45
        +5
        Isandlvane is not a fortress, of course, but cannons are cannons. request

        1. depressant
          depressant 22 January 2022 17: 30
          +6
          Looks like the guy is judging dinner.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 22 January 2022 17: 34
            +6
            He liked the brooks, because he was used to without pants, which, in general, did not stop him from arranging this grandiose massacre of cultural traders. laughing
      3. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 22 January 2022 21: 51
        0
        And since about the time of the Peloponnesian War, there have been no impregnable fortresses, in principle.
        But the Spartiots did not take Athens. As well as Janibek Kafu. Moreover, the situations were diverse.
    3. Catfish
      Catfish 22 January 2022 16: 42
      +7
      ...could fall only as a result of betrayal.


      Luda love , You forgot about such a tactic as military cunning. smile

      1. depressant
        depressant 22 January 2022 17: 24
        +5
        The drawing is dark, at first I did not understand, and then, having enlarged it, I saw it, I was glad from the bottom of my heart wassat )))
        Thank you! love )))
        In general, a visual aid on tactics)))
        It's like a first aid picture poster. It used to hang on the wall in our municipal unitary enterprise, where I pay for the consumed water through the window, now it doesn’t hang anymore. It can be seen that due to the change in strategy, tactics have also changed. Are you sick? Do not spoil the tasks, do not survive yourself and do not contribute to the survival of another!
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 22 January 2022 17: 31
          +6
          Luda, the difference between an optimist and a pessimist is that an optimist's glass is half full, and a pessimist's glass is half empty. (although the doses are the same for both).
          I always have it half full. smilealthough sometimes it's not very good.
          1. depressant
            depressant 22 January 2022 17: 34
            +5
            Kostya, and you add some water to the contents of half-full-half-empty to the top. Degrees will not go anywhere, and the subject of the dispute will disappear wassat )))
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 22 January 2022 17: 39
              +5
              Thank you for not offering to pour water instead of vodka at all, in my youth I used "awl" in its pure form. wink drinks
              Ersatz is for someone else, hamsters, for example.
              1. depressant
                depressant 22 January 2022 17: 59
                +5
                What a foodie you are! The Greeks diluted their fortified key, but not in an arc for you. Well, add degrees, only of the same color, so that "peace, friendship, chewing gum!" So that, therefore, the pacifists do not get angry. After all, for every toughest pacifist there will always be a reason why he will willingly give up the principle of peacefulness.
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 22 January 2022 18: 08
                  +4
                  With pacifists, it's not for me, I didn't suffer and I'm not going to. "Peace, friendship, chewing gum" - this is again the wrong address, but because he stopped drinking altogether, this conversation has no subject. A glass or two every three months and chocolate with cognac, this is not a drink in my understanding of the word, I drank mine, then what fate was released, now only sobriety. bully request
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 22 January 2022 18: 54
                    +4
                    I sympathize! Whatever reading you take, everyone drinks, and they look suspiciously at a non-drinker. But how can I understand you! After all, you can’t explain to everyone, they say, I’m not a radish and not even a cactus)))
                    1. Phil77
                      Phil77 22 January 2022 19: 01
                      +6
                      "Cactus".
                      A teetotaler evokes sympathy for those who quit drinking respect. hi
                      1. Catfish
                        Catfish 22 January 2022 19: 22
                        +5
                        Seryozha, hi! smile
                        So I stopped drinking not from a good life, if not for health, so the hell will you drag me away from a glass. sad drinks
                      2. depressant
                        depressant 22 January 2022 19: 42
                        +3
                        A teetotaler evokes sympathy

                        Well, yes, like a lost close friend in the form of a bottle wassat )))
                      3. Phil77
                        Phil77 22 January 2022 21: 13
                        +3
                        But let's do without these! No sinuations! laughing
                      4. depressant
                        depressant 22 January 2022 22: 56
                        +2
                        Here's the trickster. Instead of his own remark - a picture. It is correct.
                        I thought and... wassat )))
                      5. Phil77
                        Phil77 23 January 2022 06: 50
                        +2
                        Good morning Lyudmila Yakovlevna!
                        Do you say your own remark? Yes, please. To drink or not to drink is not a problem for me personally. Sometimes it occurs, yes! Often? So the holidays seem to be over, therefore? laughing But what can you say about smoking??? Prices are getting higher, quality is getting lower. Isn't it time to think about it? hi
                      6. depressant
                        depressant 23 January 2022 07: 53
                        +2
                        Early bird, huh? )))
                        Well, why are you asking such titanic questions in the morning and posing problems that humanity cannot solve throughout the entire history of its existence, and I take it and "put" a decision in front of you? Are you worried about quality?
                        Good morning, Sergey Vladimirovich! love )))
                      7. Phil77
                        Phil77 23 January 2022 09: 02
                        +2
                        I get up early. Regime, you know. bully
                      8. depressant
                        depressant 23 January 2022 09: 08
                        +2
                        Well, yes. Working habit. I had one like this. But for some reason, the time of day has shifted.
                      9. Phil77
                        Phil77 23 January 2022 09: 05
                        +2
                        What kind of "titanic" question? How to quit smoking? This question in Russia is only "conditionally" three centuries old. laughing
                      10. depressant
                        depressant 23 January 2022 09: 15
                        +2
                        You're being mean...
                        I will quit smoking as soon as the cost of smoking exceeds my financial ability. The threshold is close
                        But ... giving up bad habits, they must be replaced with something. I don't see any options. Maybe you can advise? )))
                      11. Phil77
                        Phil77 23 January 2022 09: 21
                        +3
                        Well, yes. I thought so myself. Even set the milestone at a hundred rubles. And what? You, dove." bully God save us from such an "effect"!
                      12. depressant
                        depressant 23 January 2022 09: 46
                        +2
                        Well, "Something's wrong with you, my dear," won't stop me. For "'something is wrong" has already covered. For me, this is not an option. I don't smoke when I'm typing or writing on paper. Sometimes it even works out. Some thoughts that over time I find from recognized gurus. For example, I just read Galyamov's article in Publicist. Not only is it directly in the context of the US desire to replace the spent Navalny with a fresh figure, and it turns out that Galyamov is working out a task (how pathetic it all is!), It also recommends the social technology of protest, the meaning of which I told about two years ago, maybe , a little later - here at VO. This is about how I taught and taught our entire "collective farm" community, leaving the store or entering it, to hold the door so as not to hit the forehead following wassat )))
                      13. Phil77
                        Phil77 23 January 2022 09: 53
                        +1
                        And I always hold the door. Ever since childhood. That's how they brought it up. Don't smoke when typing? Here's an ALTERNATIVE for you !!!! Write! smoking.
                      14. depressant
                        depressant 23 January 2022 10: 18
                        +3
                        I am thinking otherwise. For example, for something for which the Tatras will beat me and you, Sergey Vladimirovich, will beat me. For an idea of ​​what the USSR really was. I met here, at VO, opinions close to understanding, but people have not yet matured. And when they say, let's return the USSR, at least within the borders of Russia, I am horrified.
                      15. Phil77
                        Phil77 23 January 2022 10: 53
                        +2
                        Who do you take me for???? laughing laughing laughing
                        I am always open to constructive dialogue.
                      16. depressant
                        depressant 23 January 2022 11: 47
                        +3
                        Are you open? So get the dialogue...
                        Imagine the end of the Civil War. But already during it, people with pure souls and bright faces, filled to the top with ideology, the basis of which is the power of a working person (I hope you understand that I am taking an ideal case) exercise this very power on the ground. And then people with pure souls and bright faces return from the fronts. Some of them become a man of productive labor, while others undertake to exercise power...
                        But power is not a set of decrees and orders, nor is it brandishing a Mauser or a revolver. These are the governing bodies.
                        The chairman of the collective farm and his office are accountants, the office, that is, accounting and control. Administrations of workers' settlements and their offices, administrations of towns and cities with their departments for accounting and monitoring the state of production, culture, science, and crime. Ascending - ministries and departments with their huge staff. It is impossible to govern by decrees, which means that the judicial system, courts, the prosecutor's office, the police, the higher and lower bodies of these institutions, education - government bodies, medicine - government bodies. Legislative bodies, and so on and so forth. In short, a huge bureaucratic superstructure inevitably arises. Remember?
                        "I would gnaw out bureaucracy like a wolf!"
                        Why is bureaucracy bad in the conditions of its uncontrolled reproduction? The ability to sharply narrow the tasks assigned to each individual bureaucratic individual. Sidewalk officials, highway officer, puddle repair officer, scheduled maintenance officer, and so on, a whole host of people who are unable to grasp the problem as a whole. And when there are too many of them, then even a responsible official is not able to cover it as a whole.
                        But I'm not talking about that ...
                        Tell me, are there officials under capitalism? Were they under feudalism? What about slavery? I think you will answer yes, they were.
                        Now tell me, how did the officials help the owners of the means of production to exploit the workers as producers of material goods, with which the owners of the means of production were enriched?
                        Helped.
                        Did the officials themselves and the owners of the means of production understand the role of the official in this process?
                        Understood.
                        Understood, and officials were well rewarded. At least the big officials. Therefore, persons of noble birth did not disdain to occupy their places.
                        And then the revolution of 1917. The ideology is reversed. Who is now the owner of the means of production? People! Now the official must help the people to enrich themselves at the expense of their own, the people, labor activity. And the official is an intermediate link between production and redistribution of goods. But the people, unlike the bourgeoisie, feudal lords and slave owners, of which there were an extremely limited number, are many! The people are many! Therefore, the people are not inclined to reward the official as abundantly as the bourgeois, feudal lords and slave owners did. Otherwise, it will not be enough and the ideology will suffer.
                        And what starts to happen?
                        The official suddenly realizes himself as a class that for the first time in history has taken power into its own hands and is implementing its ideological basis. For the first time in history, the six was not under the authority of the owner, and the owner was under her authority. Conclusions and particulars - what?
                      17. Phil77
                        Phil77 23 January 2022 12: 04
                        +2
                        Yeah. As far as I understand, are you talking about the power of the bureaucracy under the Union? "The official is aware of himself as a class."? Excuse me, when was it different? And the "Table of Ranks"? and the so-called power of the people was a purely decorative "lure", another thing is that, unlike the current ones, they were more "close to the people." At least declaratively. No? Or are you talking about something else? recourse
                      18. depressant
                        depressant 23 January 2022 12: 27
                        +3
                        You correctly understand my idea. All these party, administrative and economic bodies are the Power! And the official was forced to carry it out within the framework of the communist ideology, which did not allow him to legally enrich himself in the way that he could enrich himself and prosper under the feudal lord and enrich himself under the capitalist on completely legal grounds.
                        Ideology fettered the official. But the essence of the Official is to be the Six with the Master. The people, with too many individual people requiring feeding, did not fit the Official. The people are too big! And the Master should not be enough. Only in this case the Master will adequately share with the Six. And here it is the other way around - there is too much owner! ...
                        As a result, the official very quickly began to feel uncomfortable. He felt like an underfed class. Very fast. Here comes to some released secretary of a party organization a man with a bright face and a pure soul. Listen, you and I were sitting in the same trench in the Civil. Help, huh? Four children, huddled in a barracks. What are you worth? Get ahead in the housing queue! And now there is a telephone law. And then - countless abuses, for which they were punished by death, but no one could stop. Because the Official is an integral element of capitalism, feudalism and slavery. He as a class did not exist with them, he was attached to them, he is just a six, living off handouts from the owner. The people, as hosts, proved stingy, greedy, and prone to disapproval. The owner needed to be replaced.
                        But for this it was necessary to nurture such a Master who would agree to share power with the Official. This cultivation of the official and was busy in all the years of the USSR.
                      19. kalibr
                        23 January 2022 12: 41
                        +3
                        Quote: depressant
                        And here it is the other way around - there is too much owner! ...

                        You are clever!
                      20. depressant
                        depressant 23 January 2022 13: 31
                        +3
                        Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich, I will continue ...
                        So how did the birth of the USSR frighten the Western masters so much? The Western masses, as always, did not understand anything and rejoiced, they say, the people in Russia took power. Not realizing that the people have never had power, do not have and will not have. And the masters in the West quickly realized what had happened, namely: the sixes got power! Such as they themselves are in strict submission. And if in the USSR they succeed in building the state, then their own Western officials will begin to be burdened by their position as simple executors of the will of the owners of the means of production and make demands for real participation in government. And to prevent this from happening, the USSR must be destroyed. After all, among the officials of the 30s in our country there were still a lot of people imbued with ideology, and the Western world was afraid, what if they get something that there will be nothing to oppose, and then goodbye capitalism all over the world. To exclude this accident, the Second World War was started, which mowed down the entire ideological generation in our country. There was no one to control the official, and he began to look for ways to form himself a conveniently and abundantly feeding Master in the face of the Capitalist. And found.
                        What happened in 91?
                        The agreement turned out, with which not all capitalists agreed. An official who tasted the charm of power under the USSR (Golum, looking at the Ring of Power: "My charm!"), could not refuse its temptations, because he is still Soviet, he remembers his unlimited power! The official wanted to rule with the Capitalist on an equal footing. Some of the capitalists agreed, others did not, and now the good received as a result of privatization will be taken away from those who disagree. Some laws contrary to the Constitution have already been drafted and will be drafted again. So-called state capitalism will be built, about which everyone has heard, and many perceive it as a return to the USSR, only in a new capacity. Which is fundamentally wrong! State capitalism is a symbiosis of the Capitalist and the Official, in which they are on an equal footing. And exercise power over the common man on an equal footing. That is double pressure.
                        Western capitalists do not want this. All these democracies of theirs are a puppet theater run by them for the people. The official is the public speaking head of the Capitalist. And we have an official, I repeat, who once tasted power and felt for the first time in history the ruling class, wants to go hand in hand with the Capitalist and, naturally, have half of the income, or even a large part.
                        This message so frightened the Western Capitalist that there has been a tendency, according to which he is sometimes forced to share a part of the shares with his management staff. But this is not necessary for the Capitalist! That is why the entire Western world is now up in arms against Russia. Because the new Russia sets a bad example for Western sixes.
                      21. Liam
                        Liam 23 January 2022 13: 50
                        +1
                        Quote: depressant
                        So how did the birth of the USSR frighten the Western masters so much?

                        Quote: depressant
                        That is why the entire Western world is now up in arms against Russia. Because the new Russia sets a bad example for Western sixes.

                        A typical example of discussing the taste of oysters by a person who has never eaten them)
                        hi
                      22. depressant
                        depressant 23 January 2022 13: 54
                        +3
                        Thank you Victor for your feedback!
                        As for mine, I do not insist on it. This is how I see what's happening. But will I wait for your vision? )))
                        Tell me what I'm wrong about.
                        Oysters are not the right example, these "oysters" I have eaten and continue to eat.
                      23. Liam
                        Liam 23 January 2022 15: 22
                        +1
                        The fact of the matter is that only Soviet / Russian oysters were eaten)
                      24. Phil77
                        Phil77 23 January 2022 20: 39
                        +3
                        "...such a Master..."
                        -And what about the father, do you have heroes of labor?
                        -To whom and Miller is a hero of labor.
                        laughing bully laughing
                      25. depressant
                        depressant 23 January 2022 22: 01
                        +2
                        And I thought that I would discuss with you, Sergey Vladimirovich! wassat )))
                        And you took, and dumped)))
                        And now I'm already tired, because I gave myself the trouble to read Knell's article on the prospects of Russian civilization (on opinions) and all the comments on it. What can I say? Only "M-dya ...")))
                        I figured out: which of my neighbors is able to imbue the task, - I figured it out and became discouraged.
                      26. Phil77
                        Phil77 24 January 2022 09: 51
                        +1
                        Oh, how eloquently it sounded! This is: "M-dya ...."! laughing
                        Is everything so bad?
                        Good morning Lyudmila Yakovlevna!
                        Jokes in the morning, even at work. recourse angry
                      27. depressant
                        depressant 24 January 2022 11: 19
                        +1
                        Good morning, Sergey Vladimirovich! )))
                        Glad to be joking with you, even at work. And I have continuous scrolling - what didn’t I think of when looking at the model of the Penza fortress? And a thought came, which I fix, otherwise it will go away. In the USSR, for the first time, an official realized himself as a political class capable of making demands on the owner of the means of production. Feeding him, an official. And since, according to the law, the people were the owners of the means of production, the people received a presentation from an official in the 91st. Having power only on paper, the people ceded it to the one who really seized it and mastered it unlimitedly - to the official and his preparations in the form of future oligarchs ...
                        Do not strain over my constructions, work, I myself am still only aware of my theory.
                        Details are important here.
                      28. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 23 January 2022 10: 16
                        +3
                        He even marked the milestone at a hundred rubles
                        Ten years ago, my theory teacher at a driving school swore that he would switch to public transport when gasoline costs 50 rubles. I met him recently, still driving...
                      29. Phil77
                        Phil77 23 January 2022 10: 55
                        +3
                        Yes, what is there. It was. First at 100, then at 105, and now *Java Golden" at 135. It is already becoming golden! bully
                        Anton! My respect! hi
                      30. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 23 January 2022 11: 38
                        +3
                        Hello, Sergey!
                2. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 22 January 2022 21: 35
                  +2
                  The Greeks did not have fortified.
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 22 January 2022 22: 53
                    +2
                    There is a suspicion that they made wine from almost dried grapes fermented on the vine. It's hot there. I saw these on the vine. Almost a raisin. This could be fortified wine. But you have to ask the experts.
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 22 January 2022 23: 16
                      +5
                      Couldn't. Fermenting microorganisms die when the solution is saturated with ethyl alcohol, more than 14%.
                      1. depressant
                        depressant 22 January 2022 23: 23
                        +4
                        Now I've been looking around and found it. Yes, that's exactly what they did. Collected, scattered, dried in the sun, thereby removing excess moisture and increasing the concentration of sugar. And the strength of the wine depends on this. Moreover, honey was added, the amount of which reached almost half the volume. The Greeks loved sweet wine! They even added lead, which disinfected and somehow increased the strength. Resins were added. And they diluted, who liked the diluted, with salt water. It turns out that salt enhances the grape accent.
                        Well, something like this )))
                      2. CHEREDA73
                        CHEREDA73 23 January 2022 17: 37
                        +3
                        They even added lead, which disinfected and somehow increased the fortress.

                        Oh my God! Heavy metal, quite toxic, accumulates in the body and all that...
                        You can read a lot about the harmfulness of lead.
                        And here they added...
                        Suicides sad
                      3. depressant
                        depressant 23 January 2022 17: 41
                        +4
                        Suicides

                        Right. Only then did they not know that lead was toxic. In Rome, water pipes were also made of lead. They also didn't know they were being poisoned.
                      4. CHEREDA73
                        CHEREDA73 23 January 2022 19: 36
                        +4
                        I'm afraid to make a mistake, but there is information in my head from somewhere that lead water pipes were also used in the White House. When it was replaced, I don't know.
                      5. depressant
                        depressant 23 January 2022 19: 39
                        +4
                        Are you serious?
                        Dont know. They have remained there since the 19th century wassat )))
                      6. CHEREDA73
                        CHEREDA73 23 January 2022 19: 45
                        +4
                        But I just googled "lead water pipes" - a lot of information. In the States, they were very widely used in the 20th century too. And not only in the States.
                      7. depressant
                        depressant 23 January 2022 19: 48
                        +4
                        And in connection with the use of lead additives in gasoline around the world, as far as I have heard, a surge in Alzheimer's disease. Now, when gasoline is different, the indicators have declined.
                      8. Liam
                        Liam 23 January 2022 19: 45
                        +4
                        Hello. About the harm of plumbing lead is anti-scientific garbage.
                      9. depressant
                        depressant 23 January 2022 19: 50
                        +5
                        Viktor...)))
                        Well, finally enter into a conversation not only with the final opinion, but also with the prerequisites for it. Do not be shy! )))
                      10. Liam
                        Liam 23 January 2022 19: 51
                        +4
                        Do you think I avoid discussions?)
                      11. depressant
                        depressant 23 January 2022 19: 55
                        +3
                        It seems. There is no substantiation for your opinion. Went in, shouted "Brad!" and run. And then from around the corner: "I do not avoid discussions!" wassat )))
                      12. CHEREDA73
                        CHEREDA73 23 January 2022 19: 57
                        +4
                        It seems to me, Lyudmila Yakovlevna, that in this case the Internet provides enough information from various sources to draw conclusions on your own. IMHO
                      13. Liam
                        Liam 23 January 2022 20: 04
                        +2
                        I doubt that you will find your post addressed to me, to which I did not answer.
                        As for the piping ... look at your kettle at home. What happened to its inner surface
                      14. CHEREDA73
                        CHEREDA73 23 January 2022 20: 09
                        +3
                        Why can't I find it? I remember evrything. I even found information on Nathan Jensen. A well-respected historian. specializes in military history and the Napoleonic era. Member of the International Napoleonic Society
                      15. Liam
                        Liam 23 January 2022 20: 13
                        +2
                        My post was addressed to L.Ya.
                        As for you ... it’s not in my rules to dissuade someone of something and arrange endless soap operas from fruitless disputes. The point of view is expressed, argued.
                      16. depressant
                        depressant 23 January 2022 20: 11
                        +3
                        Hit under the breath!
                        Descaled with citric acid. I took it and peeled it from the inside. I've been boiling water for two years now. Do you know how much a new kettle costs? Yes, any. Not on sale.
                        You're not a telepath, are you? )))
                      17. Liam
                        Liam 23 January 2022 20: 16
                        +2
                        Common sense and basic knowledge is enough to do without telepathy)
                        May I agree that the water in your kettle after a few days does not come into contact with the material from which the kettle is made
                      18. CHEREDA73
                        CHEREDA73 23 January 2022 20: 12
                        +3
                        You know, I visit regularly. And the wife too. Clean.
                        And because the filters are right laughing
                      19. CHEREDA73
                        CHEREDA73 23 January 2022 19: 51
                        +5
                        “In the United States, it was only in 1986 that it was forbidden to use lead for the production of water pipes. And before that time, many kilometers of lead pipes were laid in many localities in the United States. The most disadvantaged cities are in the eastern states.

                        But in the city of Flint, the problem has assumed enormous proportions. All due to the fact that while the construction of a water intake on Lake Huron is underway, river water enters the water supply system. For cleaning, various reagents are used that increase its chemical activity. Passing through the pipes, it literally washes out the lead, becoming saturated with heavy metal ions.

                        The problem was raised in the spring of 2014. Analyzes conducted by doctors showed that the number of children in whose blood high doses of lead were found has doubled in a year. "Lead" water was not used even by factories that produce cars. The only way out of this situation is to replace the main pipelines."

                        I am not a doctor and a specialist in this industry, but I gave an excerpt from the first site I came across
                      20. depressant
                        depressant 23 January 2022 19: 58
                        +2
                        What do you want!
                        Heirs of the Roman Empire wassat )))
                      21. CHEREDA73
                        CHEREDA73 23 January 2022 20: 01
                        +2
                        It is logical to assume that if everything was fine with lead pipes, then they would hardly have been changed before the end of their service life. winked
                      22. depressant
                        depressant 23 January 2022 20: 06
                        +3
                        Well, you see, all the rules of operation are out. And then, inopportunely, scientific and technological progress appeared with its laboratories. He drew himself up and showed what exactly they drank. M-yes...
                      23. Liam
                        Liam 23 January 2022 20: 02
                        +2
                        Any container that comes into prolonged contact with water (from the kettle to the pipeline) is very quickly covered with a layer of calcium. And in reality, the contact between water and lead occurs for a very short time while the pipeline is new. It's a matter of several days in general. Therefore, stories about the poisoning of the Romans ( or Americans) with lead from pipelines have no scientific basis.
                        And in your copy-paste there is a paragraph confirming that the pipeline itself is useless. The problem is in the reagents that essentially turn water into acid.

                        For cleaning, various reagents are used that increase its chemical activity.
                      24. CHEREDA73
                        CHEREDA73 23 January 2022 20: 04
                        +3
                        You know, I won't argue. Use lead piping too laughing
                      25. Liam
                        Liam 23 January 2022 20: 09
                        +2
                        There is no point in arguing. It is enough to study serious sources on the topic and not be fooled by the yellow press headlines. Lead pipelines are being changed for reasons of their cost, and not because of mythical poisoning
                      26. depressant
                        depressant 23 January 2022 20: 16
                        +3
                        That's it, I went to read our Knell's article and comments on it about the prospects for Russian civilization - I just can't finish reading it, sorry, friends! love )))
                      27. depressant
                        depressant 23 January 2022 20: 13
                        +3
                        I answered you above, you stepped on the corn)))
                    2. Konnick
                      Konnick 23 January 2022 13: 05
                      +1
                      There is a suspicion that they made wine from almost dried grapes fermented on the vine. It's hot there. I saw these on the vine. Almost a raisin. This could be fortified wine. But you have to ask the experts.

                      I'm not a specialist, much less a sommelier, I'm so ... an amateur. In Cyprus, all wine from dried grapes is called Commandaria, cloyingly sweet, but each village has its own taste, depending on the grape variety, but the amount of wine is disproportionately larger than the vineyards. There are fewer grapes in all of Cyprus than in any one state farm in the Kuban or Stavropol Territory. They really suck. drinks
  10. vladcub
    vladcub 22 January 2022 16: 01
    +3
    Q. Oh, to be honest, the material is not expected. I didn't expect to read something like this
    1. LisKat2
      LisKat2 22 January 2022 16: 59
      +3
      Our Vyacheslav Olegovich is a master, and if so, he will be versatile
    2. kalibr
      22 January 2022 17: 53
      +3
      Quote: vladcub
      To be honest, the material is not expected.

      From me, Svyatoslav, you can expect everything. And when something hurts me, and I am writing a novel at that time, then the most terrible atrocities are committed there and the corpses are carried out in batches ...
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 22 January 2022 20: 31
        +2
        Q. Oh, and you often have pain
        1. kalibr
          22 January 2022 20: 43
          +2
          It happens, Svyatoslav. Neuralgia is a bad thing.
          1. vladcub
            vladcub 23 January 2022 08: 59
            0
            In this case, did you surpass Chikatila?
            You yourself say that you take out the corpses in batches. Where does it take it from?
            1. kalibr
              23 January 2022 12: 36
              +1
              Quote: vladcub
              Where does it take it from?

              How many times I wrote to you - read my novels. But the "toad is strangling" you. Then what are we talking about?
  11. LisKat2
    LisKat2 22 January 2022 16: 55
    +4
    Good day everyone. Vyacheslav Olegovich, I didn’t even know that your Penza had such a past
    1. kalibr
      22 January 2022 17: 57
      +3
      Quote: LisKat2
      such a past

      And also the city of Penza - the city of "copper thieves" and obscene girls. In 1662 there was a "Copper Riot" and those caught in the copper tatba were ordered to be beaten with a whip and exiled to "distant cities", and at the same time to clean Moscow from ... And then in 1663 Penza was founded and most likely there (where really distant) to the settlement and sent many "copsiers" and "obscene wives", so that they would take the "honest path".
      1. LisKat2
        LisKat2 22 January 2022 20: 13
        +3
        As I remember: some of the rebels were hanged, some were drowned in the river.
        "Copper tatis" - "thieves".
        "Indecent wives" is it like the "king's brides" were exiled to Australia?
        1. kalibr
          22 January 2022 20: 41
          +3
          Quote: LisKat2
          "Indecent wives" is it like the "king's brides" were exiled to Australia?

          Exactly! But only breeders were drowned and hanged, and some thieves, having been beaten with whips, were driven away to distant cities!
      2. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 22 January 2022 21: 39
        +2
        and obscene girls.
        Saratov, by the way, too.
  12. Old Michael
    Old Michael 22 January 2022 17: 59
    +3
    Hello, Vyacheslav Olegovich!

    The measure of the city wall in one direction is 113 fathoms, in the other direction - 103 fathoms, in the third direction - 106 fathoms, in the fourth - 109 fathoms. The height of the city wall and with regions 2 sazhens with a half arshin

    From this description it follows that in terms of the fortress it was almost a square.
    From the schematic images that were once encountered, it was remembered that the longest wall was opposite from Sura. But in the photo in the article, the layout looks rectangular, elongated along the river.
    Is this an optical effect, or is there something wrong with the layout?
    But still, impressive! And the original (according to the description), and the layout.
    hi
    1. kalibr
      22 January 2022 19: 17
      +3
      Hello dear Michael. And I did not make the layout, and I did not draw the drawing. So I can't say for sure. I read a lot of things, including contradictory ones. Shaft in the center intact. It stretches along the river.
  13. LisKat2
    LisKat2 22 January 2022 19: 45
    +2
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, if I understood correctly: they tried to take Penza by storm at least 2 times and failed.
    Please tell me: what was the garrison of the fortress and what was the thickness of the walls?
    1. kalibr
      22 January 2022 20: 40
      +2
      Two - two times, and failed, but the rebels took Razin and hung the governor on the gate! The garrison... who knows. 100 swords were sent to the Reiters. And there were also gunners, collars, Cossacks, city archers ... clerks, scribes ... in general there were a lot of people ... The thickness of the walls ... There are two points of view - the walls are tyn, that is, a vertical fence with paths behind. But most likely the walls were chopped "cities". That is, a "city" was folded from logs - a square frame and stuffed with earth. Well, it is clear that the log house was not a meter by a meter. You can't stand at the top. But 2 by 2, 2 by 3 meters is quite. A second one, then a third one, was attached close to this log house ... and this is how they "fenced the gorodba". And the towers were empty and there were embrasures in them - "battles", "solar" and "horse". Cities built walls on the rampart and watered it in winter. So the walls were thick and impenetrable. But they often rotted, which the governors complained about!
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 23 January 2022 12: 09
        +1
        Q. Oh, you can roughly calculate. 100 reiters, 16 guns - up to 20 gunners, 40-45 collars, probably from archers. So there are about 100 archers. Kozakov about 150 people. In total, 500 people will be typed, + militia
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 23 January 2022 12: 13
        0
        The height is probably from 3,5 to 6 meters. The walls themselves, and the towers, perhaps 3-5 meters
  14. CHEREDA73
    CHEREDA73 22 January 2022 20: 42
    +3
    What caught my eye when looking at the layout of the fortress was the absence of bastions and ravelins. The architecture of the fortification looks like it was built under Yaroslav the Wise (only cannons were added).
    But the 17th century was already in the yard. It was clearly known about these architectural military tricks.
    Thanks for the article, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    1. kalibr
      22 January 2022 21: 08
      +3
      Quote: CHEREDA73
      But the 17th century was already in the yard. It was clearly known about these architectural military tricks.

      No, they didn't. The wisdom of Vauban has not yet reached Russia!
      1. CHEREDA73
        CHEREDA73 22 January 2022 21: 14
        +2
        Well I do not know...
        Under Ivan 3, according to the last word of the Italian fortification, the Kremlin was rebuilt after all. So, we followed what was what. Karamzin writes that all Western military innovations quickly became known to us. Is not it?
        1. kalibr
          23 January 2022 12: 11
          +1
          Quote: CHEREDA73
          Karamzin writes that all Western military innovations quickly became known to us.

          Then where are the bastions in the Penza fortress?
          1. CHEREDA73
            CHEREDA73 23 January 2022 14: 42
            +3
            Under Vauban, Vyacheslav Olegovich, the bastion fortification was already flourishing. And so the development from bastions to bastions went on from the end of the 15th century and the entire 16th. I guess everyone knew us. But knowing is one thing. And in relation to local conditions, many factors had to be taken into account. I read that bastion fortresses were extremely expensive. That is, it is possible that two simple fortresses in the shape of a square could be built, instead of one, but according to the latest military architecture.
            Why did I start all this talk about bastions? Because it is possible to provide effective longitudinal fire along the walls. You can't do that in the Penza Fortress. Looking at the layout of the fortress, you understand that at least the corner towers should be more developed and protrude forward, and then it would be possible to provide flanking fire.
        2. Konnick
          Konnick 23 January 2022 12: 40
          +3
          Under Ivan 3, according to the last word of the Italian fortification, the Kremlin was rebuilt after all. So, we followed what was what. Karamzin writes that all Western military innovations quickly became known to us. Is not it?

          The Moscow Kremlin and the castle of Duke Sforza in Milan are twin brothers. And moreover, peers, almost.
          But the Russian fortification trend of the middle of the 17th century implied the optimal layout of fortresses in the form of a square. Almost all the new forts of that time had the same arrangement. Typical project of a wooden fortress with backfill walls. Brick was in short supply, all went to the furnace. And these are not full-fledged fortresses, but, in modern terms, military bases, large checkpoints against nomadic gangs. And a fortress with bastions, ravelins and even forts and gorges, but this is against the regular army. An example of such fortresses is Brest and Koenigsberg.
  15. zwlad
    zwlad 31 January 2022 21: 16
    0
    The nomads did not reach Saransk for 30 miles. From the walls of the fortress people have already seen the glow

    Oh, that fortress has long been gone, and the ramparts are almost gone.