Military Review

A weapon worse than Russian rap. Morgenstern

164

Kettenmorgenstern, a type of flail, modern replica, image: www.mareg.net


The era of the Middle Ages gave us a lot of examples of cold weapons... Some specimens have proven so powerful and effective that they have been used for centuries. Morgenstern can rightfully be attributed to such types of weapons. This edged weapon combined ease of use, a frightening appearance and terrible wounds that the enemy who met with him received.

What is a morning star?


Morgenstern (Morgenstern) is a melee weapon of shock-crushing action. In its canonical form, it was usually a metal ball (an elongated, oval shape was also found), which was additionally equipped with spikes. This ball was used as the pommel of other medieval weapons: maces, clubs or flails. The chain morgenstern (kettenmorgenstern) was a type of flail; in this example of a cold weapon, a spiked ball was attached to a long handle with a chain.

Anyone who has studied German will guess that the name of edged weapons has German roots, and they will be right. Morgenstern is translated from German as "morning star". The shape of the weapon really did resemble a star. It is also believed to be an obsolete form of the "good morning" greeting. For comparison, the Flemings called their stabbing polearm goedendag, which literally translates as "good afternoon." In a sense, humor in the Middle Ages was not all that bad.

Morgenstern was also called a small spiked wooden club, or a small metal mace with a short handle and a spiked spherical beat. Wooden weapons were as simple as possible to make, so such samples were widely used in Europe during peasant wars and uprisings. They were also actively used by robbers operating on medieval tracts.

Morgensterns were most widely used at the beginning of the XNUMXth century in Germany. In this case, the weapon was used by both infantry and cavalry. The riders were armed with Morgensterns with a shortened handle. It is known that morgensterns remained in service with the Swiss infantry until at least the middle of the XNUMXth century.

A weapon worse than Russian rap. Morgenstern
Morgenstern (center). From Wendelin Böheim's Encyclopedia of Weapons (1890), image: wikimedia.org

Morgensterns and their numerous varieties in medieval Europe were a fairly massive and widespread type of cold steel, which was used for centuries. To some extent, this group of medieval shock-crushing weapons was made unique by the fact that it was used in battle by various segments of the population and participated in various battles of that era.

How Morning Stars were Made


There were three main types of morningstars, which differed primarily in the quality of workmanship. The first examples were well-made military morningstars, which were intended for use by professional soldiers. Experienced gunsmiths mass-produced such edged weapons, including for supplying urban arsenals.

The second type was much simpler, it was used by noble warriors, most often peasants. They could independently prepare such a weapon by picking up a wooden blank of a suitable shape and hewing it. They could also fix nails or spikes in it on their own, or they could turn to a blacksmith for help, who could additionally strengthen the structure with iron bands.

The third type of morning star was decorative patterns. They were produced by the most skilled gunsmiths and were not intended for battle. This is a decorative weapon that could be a symbol of the power and wealth of the owner, for decoration it could often be inlaid with silver or gold.

From a technical point of view, the process of making a morning star was not difficult. If the shock part (beat) was made of iron, then the spikes were often simply welded to it. A variant was also used when the blacksmith inserted spikes into a metal ball “hot”. In this case, the spikes inserted into the pre-prepared holes in the hot ball were firmly stuck when the structure cooled down, since the metal contracts when cooled.


Morgenstern and kettenmorgenstern in the museum, photo: wikimedia.org

The easiest to manufacture was the option that was used by peasants, militias and numerous robbers. They simply drove iron spikes or nails borrowed from a blacksmith into a wooden club. True, such a design was not the most reliable, and the tree began to crack relatively quickly, if the weapon, of course, was used in battle.

Advantages and disadvantages of the morning star


The weapon looked quite creepy and spectacular, having a moral impact on the enemy even before the battle. At the same time, the spikes themselves were often not a help in battle, but simply a decorative element if warriors in light protection or without armor participated in the clash. At the same time, the morning star became especially effective in battles against heavily armed infantry, as well as mounted warriors. The spikes were effective against warriors in chain mail, and a rider armed with such weapons could also pierce plate armor at good speed.

The advantages of this melee weapon include the simplicity of design. For example, the Kettenmorgenstern was often an ordinary threshing flail, which in peacetime could well be used to grind grain. Unlike the two-handed sword and other medieval weapons, which required long and diligent training, morgensterns and kettenmorgensterns were much simpler, which allowed them to be used effectively by peasants who knew what a flail and club were.

In turn, the simplicity of the design concealed and cons. For example, the tactics of the combat use of such weapons was primitive. Morning sterns were crude inertial weapons that allowed them to shower blows on the enemy, mainly from a good swing. All hope was that the enemy would open up, miss your blow and get a terrible head injury. No helmet of that era saved from a strong blow at the right angle.

The kettenmorgenstern had another specific flaw. In the heat of battle, a warrior could also catch allies fighting next to him. In addition, such a weapon lost its effectiveness when the enemy shortened the distance with you as much as possible - in such a situation, the weapon on the chain turned out to be simply useless, the same was typical for models with a fairly long handle.


Albert Anker's Milk Soup (1869), image: wikimedia.org

Despite the fact that morningstars certainly increased the severity of injuries and injuries, it was quite difficult to carry such weapons. It was impossible to make a cover for him, besides, he could cling to items of clothing and ammunition. In battle, the spikes could interfere with an accurate hit, clinging to various close objects, and they could also get stuck tightly in shields or armor.

Morningstars began to fade from the scene at the same time that armor ceased to play its former role, that is, with the advent and increasing distribution of firearms. Such edged weapons were used in relatively large quantities until the beginning of the XNUMXth century. It is all the more surprising that it suddenly revived in the XNUMXth century.

Surprisingly, the Morgenstern was reborn from the ashes during the First World War, becoming one of the most terrible examples of trench weapons. In bloody hand-to-hand combat, makeshift morningstars became deadly weapons. It was often used by German soldiers, as well as the soldiers of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, who especially actively used morning stars on the Austro-Italian front.
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  1. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 15 January 2022 04: 58
    +4
    becoming one of the most terrible examples of trench weapons.

    I can hardly imagine how you can swing for a good blow with a morgenstein in a narrow space ... in a trench or dugout ... a bayonet or a knife is more suitable here.
    And so the crushing blow weapon is very effective in hand-to-hand combat, hit the hand with a knife and the enemy will forget about the knife.
    1. Andrey Moskvin
      Andrey Moskvin 15 January 2022 05: 20
      +13
      Check out "trench batons".
    2. Ingvar K
      Ingvar K 15 January 2022 10: 24
      +8
      I recommend to study the fortifications of the trench period of the First World War. They would soon lay rails for steam locomotives))))
    3. dauria
      dauria 15 January 2022 17: 49
      +19
      I can hardly imagine how you can swing for a good hit with a morgenstein in a narrow space


      And this is how I imagined a skyscraper, but completely with stakes with barbed wire, and mines. Yes, brutalized ambalov there in the trenches ... And machine guns to the heap. And you need to crawl there until the grenade is thrown, and run the rest ... And then also point-blank face to face ....
      Yes, die with a torn belly, looking at your guts. Just to survive - and that is a wonderful marvel. So bow to our grandfathers. You will bow at the feet of any private.
      This is any current special forces of any country - peacock bullshit compared to them.
      1. Andrey Moskvin
        Andrey Moskvin 15 January 2022 19: 14
        +2
        And this is the trench truth.
    4. seregatara1969
      seregatara1969 17 January 2022 15: 26
      +1
      In the Middle Ages, it means that a spiked mace was not very effective against infantry without armor! But in a trench against a soldier without armor during the First World War, it suddenly became effective! Paradox or author's mistake? An iron ball with small spikes easily broke the bones of a warrior without armor! The weapon is shock! It's hard and useless to break through armor
      1. Kerensky
        Kerensky 17 January 2022 20: 12
        0
        An iron ball with small spikes easily broke the bones of a warrior without armor!

        I had a chance to make the Morning Star myself. This is a different story. But, as a practitioner, I can say - never take it in your hands! Kisten, yes. Mace, club, but not this monster!
  2. Asad
    Asad 15 January 2022 05: 00
    +20
    Thank you for the article! After reading the title, I thought that again we were talking about a painted swearword!
    1. Aerodrome
      Aerodrome 15 January 2022 05: 19
      +11
      A weapon worse than Russian rap.
      - there is more terrible??? belay
      1. Uncle lee
        Uncle lee 15 January 2022 06: 15
        +9
        Quote: Aerodrome
        is there more scary???

        There is an equal sign between them! Both are murder weapons! In a word - MORGenstern ....
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 15 January 2022 16: 28
          +1
          Good afternoon, Vladimir! hi

          MORGenstern....


          Well you replayed the poetic "Morning Star". good What for! smile
      2. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 15 January 2022 10: 04
        +13
        There is... Russian pop. But this already applies to weapons of mass destruction. laughing
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 15 January 2022 10: 29
          +8
          "Morgenstern" sounds intimidating.
          But the "buzzygan" is even scarier.
          1. Keyser soze
            Keyser soze 16 January 2022 11: 56
            0
            But the "buzzygan" is even scarier.

            Yes, we have a morgenschern called "bozdugan". A subject of unfailing popularity.... laughing
        2. English tarantas
          English tarantas 15 January 2022 12: 24
          +3
          This is inhumane and prohibited by international treaties.
        3. Catfish
          Catfish 15 January 2022 16: 30
          +6
          In general, there is nothing worse than the "culture" of the mass media. Death for the people.

          Hi, Igor! smile
          1. The leader of the Redskins
            The leader of the Redskins 15 January 2022 17: 11
            0
            Yeah. If Solovyov, Kiselev, Skabeeva and the rest sing ... Then this will be a complete paragraph)))
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 15 January 2022 17: 13
              +4
              No equipment can handle this. wassat
            2. Uncle lee
              Uncle lee 16 January 2022 03: 15
              0
              Stankevich as the lead singer, Valuev as the second voice, Mlechin and Svanidze as backup dancers!
      3. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 15 January 2022 10: 38
        +5
        Quote: Aerodrome
        A weapon worse than Russian rap.
        - there is more terrible??? belay

        But what about Russian chanson. smile
        1. Andrey Moskvin
          Andrey Moskvin 16 January 2022 01: 48
          0
          You really are. Chanson is not just pop music with a criminal bias.
  3. Real Pilot
    Real Pilot 15 January 2022 05: 04
    +7
    More terrible than Russian rap, yes ...
    But listening to the same Morgenstern at full volume from a car parked under the windows is still torture, it’s just nerve poison or something psychotropic!
    How one would like in such cases to take a bath of water and pour it on the organizers of the "concert", or fire rotten eggs ... But now it's clear what kind of tool would have been used in the Middle Ages!
    1. yuriy55
      yuriy55 15 January 2022 05: 49
      +8
      Quote: RealPilot
      But listen to the same Morgenstern at full volume from a car parked under the windows

      Some people like just such a “killer” mixture of mate and alternating repetitions of a set of words.
      I remembered:
      Beyoncé is on the radio
      Beyoncé sings in the car for mademoiselle.
      I, I listen to songs -
      Songs that the GAZelle driver loves.

      Female! Woman in a Lexus
      He doesn't even know that there are such songs in the world.
      Songs about the daring fraer,
      The cop overwhelmed a youngster in Tagil.
    2. NDR-791
      NDR-791 15 January 2022 06: 53
      +3
      Quote: RealPilot
      But listening to the same Morgenstern at full volume from a car parked under the windows is still torture, it’s just nerve poison or something psychotropic!

      A flower pot is treated at the expense of times.
    3. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 15 January 2022 07: 42
      +7
      A banal slingshot, and this car will no longer park under your windows. bully
      And you can kill with a pot.
    4. English tarantas
      English tarantas 15 January 2022 12: 25
      +1
      But now it is clear what means would have been used in the Middle Ages!

      In Russia, demonism was fought in a more effective and spectacular way - with a whip and a rack
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 15 January 2022 16: 30
        0
        "whip and rack" without any frills like: "Spanish boot" or "iron maiden"
  4. Avior
    Avior 15 January 2022 05: 23
    +12
    Morgenstern was also called a small spiked wooden club, or a small metal mace with a short handle and a spiked spherical beat.


    And the middle one is with a morning star! smile
    1. yuriy55
      yuriy55 15 January 2022 05: 43
      +9
      Quote: Avior
      And the middle one is with a morning star!

      Rather - with a club (mace) ... yes
      1. Avior
        Avior 15 January 2022 11: 37
        +6
        I can see for myself what's wrong with the club.
        But it is written - Morgenstern! smile
    2. Xlor
      Xlor 15 January 2022 06: 39
      -1
      And the middle one is with a morning star!

      Mace - from the word "pin" ... Features of phonetics wink
      1. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 15 January 2022 07: 44
        +6
        Quote: Xlor
        Mace - from the word "pin"

        On the contrary.
        1. Xlor
          Xlor 15 January 2022 08: 08
          +4
          I agree. Lyapnuv, without looking at the etymology of the word ...
        2. yuriy55
          yuriy55 15 January 2022 12: 56
          0
          Quote: Ingvar 72
          On the contrary.

          yes
          PIN, -i, genus. pl. wok, dat. - vkam, well. Type of needle with a head at the blunt end (used for pinning). The chief engineer was touching paper sheets, pinned with pins on --- a map of construction. Azhaev Far from Moscow. || A large needle with a beautiful large head as an item of clothing or clothing decoration. Tie-pin.

          It looks small, such a “mace”:
    3. The comment was deleted.
  5. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 15 January 2022 05: 48
    +9
    For comparison, the Flemish called their stabbing polearm goendag (goedendag), which literally translated as "good afternoon." In a sense, humor in the Middle Ages was not all that bad.
    "Godendag" is not humor, it is one of the shibboleths used by the Flemings during the "Bruges Matins" (1302)
    1. depressant
      depressant 15 January 2022 07: 31
      +7
      It is strange that no one is trying to stretch the chain:
      Morgenstern - Morning Star - Lucifer - Devil.

      "The devil hated man as a being who, in terms of his spiritual potential, is capable of becoming higher than angels. And also because man has become a beloved creation of God, His image and likeness ...
      He teaches people by cunning and deceit to violate the will of God. Thus the evil one sows the sprouts of sin in the souls, hardening the hearts of people..."

      This is the essence of Morgenstern positioned by him. How much has this guy taken on? Megalomania?
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 15 January 2022 07: 50
        +13
        In my opinion, too much attention is paid to this pretzel. If his name had not been declined lately on the resource, to the place and not to the place, I would not even know about his existence.
        1. depressant
          depressant 15 January 2022 08: 05
          +10
          Anton, this "pretzel" performs an important task of destroying human morality, based on a false message.
          And the message is this. The evolution of the morality of modern man, in the opinion of those in power, is going too slowly and somehow everything does not turn in the direction where, having gathered all together, people will find themselves a herd of ruminants - submissive, patiently waiting for feeding from an outstretched powerful hand - they still fluttering, appealing to the old moral norms and demanding their observance by those in power.
          So, this too demanding morality must be destroyed to the ground, and replaced with the one that is desirable.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 15 January 2022 08: 20
            +11
            I beg you, Lyudmila Yakovlevna!
            Once the same was said about the Beatles, and the tango was considered a pornographic dance. But if the first and second have firmly entered world culture, then no one will remember this bastard in a couple of years.
            1. depressant
              depressant 15 January 2022 08: 38
              +9
              And you don't have to remember about it. According to the principle "The Moor has done his job, the Moor can leave." Morgenstern is a small fry, one of hundreds of thousands of those who help the masters of this world create the so-called "new reality". For cooperation, he is allowed to cut the loot. In full agreement with the new doctrine of war. The meaning of which - the guns are silent, temptations speak, there is no forbidden.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 15 January 2022 08: 54
                +7
                You know, in this way you can reach an agreement before accusing Shpakovsky and Ryzhov of decomposing the Russian mentality, by writing articles about French marshals and English uniforms. What is happening now on the next branch. Join the "prosecutors"?
                1. depressant
                  depressant 15 January 2022 10: 14
                  +3
                  You know, in this way you can negotiate before the accusations of Shpakovsky and Ryzhov

                  I have already answered your remark on the topic of Shpakovsky.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 15 January 2022 10: 22
                    +1
                    Yes, I saw.
                    1. depressant
                      depressant 15 January 2022 10: 34
                      +4
                      And probably not happy with the answer? Is not it?
                      I sing as best I can wassat )))
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 15 January 2022 10: 40
                        +2
                        And probably not happy with the answer?
                        Why on earth?
                      2. depressant
                        depressant 15 January 2022 10: 52
                        +6
                        Well, you ranked me among the procurators)))
                        Only I strictly share the concepts - power, its means, people. Morgenstern is a remedy adopted in the modern era. So to speak, "humanized", and therefore more effective in relation to fragile young minds.
                        Do you know when a person begins to develop critical thinking, accompanied by non-critical perception? At 10!
                      3. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 15 January 2022 11: 08
                        +4
                        Lyudmila Yakovlevna, "procurator" and "prosecutor", are somewhat different concepts, don't you think?
                        On the subject of child psychology, you should not enlighten me, I myself will "load" anyone on this topic (the mother of my children is a child psychologist)
                      4. depressant
                        depressant 15 January 2022 15: 05
                        +5
                        It was getting dark, ducks flew in:
                        in the hospital, a fight began ... "(c) wassat )))
              2. Undecim
                Undecim 15 January 2022 10: 36
                +7
                one of the hundreds of thousands of those who help the masters of this world to create the so-called "new reality".

                Good morning! Judging by your comment, Samsonov's efforts have begun to bear fruit.
                1. depressant
                  depressant 15 January 2022 10: 56
                  +4
                  Strange conclusion)))
                  Moreover, I hardly read Samsonov, but draw conclusions based on real life observations
                  Viktor Nikolayevich, I'm probably a fertile material for labeling - benevolent, sympathetic, patient - right? wassat )))
                  1. Undecim
                    Undecim 15 January 2022 11: 40
                    +5
                    Viktor Nikolaevich, I'm probably fertile material for labeling

                    No, Lyudmila Yakovlevna, you are a good conversationalist. It is interesting to communicate with you. In this regard, your belief in the existence of a "world behind the scenes" looks somewhat unexpected.
                    1. Ingvar 72
                      Ingvar 72 15 January 2022 13: 22
                      +2
                      So you don't think it exists? But you must admit that it is a very effective management tool, despite the fact that it does not exist! wink Covid measures, for all their absurdity, very consistently lead to the nightmare of people, and to their standardization. hi
                      1. Undecim
                        Undecim 15 January 2022 13: 25
                        +5
                        People "nightmare" themselves by believing in various "world super-societies".
                      2. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 15 January 2022 13: 38
                        0
                        The placebo effect has not been canceled! laughing
                        But seriously, the organization of actions is often traced. The goals are not always visible, but now they are there.
                      3. Undecim
                        Undecim 15 January 2022 13: 41
                        +3
                        but now they are there.

                        On whose?
                      4. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 15 January 2022 13: 46
                        -1
                        Quote: Undecim
                        On whose?

                        Yes, you are a scammer! So catch! laughing
                        But seriously, now the goals and beneficiaries are mostly visible.
                        How do you feel about Fursov, Viktor Nikolaevich?
                      5. Undecim
                        Undecim 15 January 2022 13: 57
                        +3
                        You will not believe, Igor, but no way. I have not read any of his books or articles.
                      6. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 15 January 2022 14: 02
                        +1
                        He has a channel, he tells very interesting things. And he is also a historian. Try it, it's interesting. And not only based on the thesis that we are all looking for arguments for our thoughts.
                        The person is very well-read, but besides this, he can knit knots from threads of information, which is not given to everyone.
                      7. Undecim
                        Undecim 15 January 2022 14: 12
                        +5
                        No, who is Fursov and his occupation is known to me. But somehow his hands did not reach his work. Yes, and it is not possible to embrace the immensity.
                      8. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 15 January 2022 14: 15
                        +3
                        Quote: Undecim
                        Yes, and it is not possible to embrace the immensity

                        In this you are absolutely right! hi But you have an inquisitive mindset, I'm sure you will reach it! drinks
                      9. BMP-2
                        BMP-2 15 January 2022 14: 24
                        +2
                        It's more of a placebo than a nocebo. winked
                2. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 15 January 2022 11: 01
                  +3
                  Well, what are you doing, Viktor Nikolaevich, with a sickle on ... uh ..., alive ?!
                  1. Undecim
                    Undecim 15 January 2022 11: 49
                    +4
                    Well, you are so, Viktor Nikolaevich, with a sickle


                    What came to hand.
                    1. depressant
                      depressant 15 January 2022 12: 01
                      +4
                      What came to hand.

                      Yes, I will dodge, I will dodge)))
                      And you, Viktor Nikolaevich, do you believe that everything in this world happens spontaneously and is not controlled in the least by anyone? )))
                      1. Undecim
                        Undecim 15 January 2022 12: 22
                        +5
                        No, of course not spontaneously and managed. But these processes do not represent any secret.
                      2. depressant
                        depressant 15 January 2022 12: 30
                        +4
                        And two and a half thousand people, each of whom is known by name as a co-owner of TNK "This Mad, Mad World" - this is not behind the scenes? Directors do not go on stage, they are behind the scenes! It is attended by actors who play notes of democracy - presidents, their administrations, legislators, and others.
                      3. Undecim
                        Undecim 15 January 2022 12: 46
                        +6
                        And all these two and a half thousand are working tirelessly in concert to manage the world?
                      4. depressant
                        depressant 15 January 2022 13: 28
                        +2
                        They are all related to each other. Many of them are owners of the largest banks and multinational corporations, and most importantly, they are all shareholders of each other's enterprises. There is an unbreakable tangle. Among them there are even aristocrats, leading a pedigree from the 12th century and still owning a huge amount of land and real estate. And, of course, these people do not shine, do not participate in scandals, lead a secluded lifestyle. Is that the Rothschilds are slightly on the ear. This community is scattered all over the world, but, I repeat, between them there is the closest connection and their actions are coordinated. I'm surprised that you don't even know about them.
                      5. Undecim
                        Undecim 15 January 2022 13: 35
                        +6
                        I'm surprised that you don't even know about them.

                        It would be interesting to see the list. Or is this information transmitted exclusively by word of mouth?
                        By the way, without a single coordinating center, such activities are impossible.
                      6. depressant
                        depressant 15 January 2022 14: 37
                        0
                        Well, try asking the Warburgs.
                        Not a coordinating center - several well-known clubs in which representatives of these families confer and come to a common decision on some problem. As a representative, someone from the family, for example, the Queen of England, or maybe just a confidant, may come to the meeting.
                      7. Undecim
                        Undecim 15 January 2022 15: 15
                        +6
                        Is the Queen of England Jewish? Now that's a plot twist!!! And at what historical stage did the Jews make their way into the Windsor dynasty?
                      8. depressant
                        depressant 15 January 2022 15: 57
                        0
                        Viktor Nikolaevich, stop! She is not Jewish at all. There are ties both related and in a common cause. I gave you the surname "Warburg". First, take an interest in this family.
                      9. Undecim
                        Undecim 15 January 2022 19: 29
                        +5
                        She is not Jewish

                        Yes, how not a Jew, if
                        I gave you the surname "Warburg"
                        и
                        There are ties both related and in a common cause.

                        By the way, on what "common cause" do they have connections? Representatives of this Jewish family are known for outstanding achievements in biochemistry, botany, politics, economics, banking, law, physics, classical music, chemistry, pharmacology and physiology, as well as art history.
                      10. Motorist
                        Motorist 15 January 2022 19: 51
                        +3
                        Quote: depressant
                        Well, try asking the Warburgs.

                        I also asked, with your permission. hi Indeed, suspicious: a two-stroke three-cylinder engine is very atypical ... what



                      11. Undecim
                        Undecim 15 January 2022 21: 41
                        +5
                        Warburg and Wartburg are different subjects. Warburg, from which the surname is derived, is a city in Germany, and Wartburg, from which the car's name is derived, is a castle in Germany.
                    2. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 15 January 2022 12: 04
                      +4
                      Here, for some, the hands are itching to "vigorous loaf", you can't succumb to the herd instinct. Culturally necessary, strictly according to Talhoffer
                      1. Undecim
                        Undecim 15 January 2022 12: 25
                        +7
                        Here, others have itchy hands on a "vigorous loaf"

                        Do you mean the results of the hysteria with "ultimatums" and "red lines"? Yes, propagandists are in a very serious difficulty - now we must somehow get out of the situation.
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 15 January 2022 12: 37
                        +4
                        Oh no! Who am I to discuss "party and government decisions"?
                        Just sitting by the river...
                      3. depressant
                        depressant 15 January 2022 12: 37
                        +1
                        And you do not call names! Talhoffer, you know... wassat )))
                        And, I can assure you that according to the prediction of the cover of the English magazine "The Economist" (it is also an order), the Rothschilds do not plan to exchange "vigorous loaves" with Russia this year.
                      4. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 15 January 2022 12: 43
                        +4
                        And you do not call names! Talhoffer, you know...
                        "And the mind, the mind, what to do with it ?!" (WITH)
                      5. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 15 January 2022 12: 57
                        +2
                        The presence of a beard contributes to the liking for this anecdote.
                      6. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 15 January 2022 13: 00
                        +4
                        Hmmm... Doubtful factor.
                      7. depressant
                        depressant 15 January 2022 13: 34
                        +1
                        Having a beard helps...

                        So shave off so as not to stand out, and take off your glasses - they will give out with your head! )))
                      8. depressant
                        depressant 15 January 2022 13: 32
                        +2
                        "And the mind, the mind, what to do with it ?!" (WITH)

                        And in Russia, the problem of excess mind is solved very simply. Throw it in, they say, you yourself know where - it will be safer. And you're right, damn it! wassat )))
                      9. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 15 January 2022 13: 36
                        +3
                        It's not about the mind, it's about the language.
                        And you're right, damn it!
                      10. depressant
                        depressant 15 January 2022 14: 30
                        +4
                        It's not about the mind, it's about the language.

                        So after all, what's on the mind is on the tongue, and not so much in a drunk as in a very smart one. wassat )))
      2. Luminman
        Luminman 15 January 2022 07: 58
        +2
        Lucifer Devil

        What do they have to do with the morning star?
        1. Gardamir
          Gardamir 15 January 2022 08: 09
          +5
          Lucifer is luminous. A little later, the devil and Lucifer became synonymous.
        2. Avior
          Avior 15 January 2022 10: 28
          +7
          Lucifer is the Lightbringer, in Roman mythology the personification of the morning star, Venus.
          It was not always bad, in Christianity they tied to Satan already in the late Middle Ages


          “Morning Star”, by the way, is the newspaper of the Communist Party of Great Britain, I remember reading at school at school, I don’t remember anything else in English for sale.
    2. ee2100
      ee2100 15 January 2022 08: 42
      +1
      Morgen, Anton!
      I looked about the shibboleths of the Bruges matins, which I found: "schild en vriend", which means "shield and friend", according to another version, they were asked to pronounce "des gildens vriend" - "friend of the guilds".
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 15 January 2022 09: 05
        +2
        Good wound, Alexander!
        I still tend to the version of the "godentag", because the massacre in Bruges took place at night, most likely starting shortly before the praise. Other shibboleths arose, most likely, with the further development of events.
    3. Catfish
      Catfish 15 January 2022 16: 58
      +1
      "Godendag" is not humor, it is one of the shibboleths used by the Flemings during the "Bruges Matins" (1302)


  6. Private SA
    Private SA 15 January 2022 06: 02
    +3
    Quote: RealPilot
    But now it is clear what means would have been used in the Middle Ages!

    I would take up the flail, go to the gang.
  7. kytx
    kytx 15 January 2022 06: 06
    +3
    The trench club is Morgenstern. Well, as I understand it, what fell into the hands in such a situation is a weapon. But the clubs were made handicraft. Noble meat was seen on the Somme for example!
    1. English tarantas
      English tarantas 15 January 2022 12: 32
      0
      Sometimes when I read about those events, it seems to me that the participants had to die within a week after the first fight, because I would never be able to sleep after this
  8. Private SA
    Private SA 15 January 2022 06: 22
    +2
    Quote: yuriy55
    Some people like this

    So let them, some, listen to her with headphones. I'm the group "Slade"
    with the album from 1976 "Nobody's fools" on 100 watts of my passport
    I do not output acoustics to the channel. And "Deep Purple" - "Stormbringer".
    1. sivuch
      sivuch 15 January 2022 09: 54
      +1
      And right. That's what Stargazer is for.
    2. English tarantas
      English tarantas 15 January 2022 12: 35
      +2
      +
      What is the problem with buying not a speaker, but good headphones, in fact, what I did, otherwise it would have been, and so the endangered population of German teachers in my locality would have been finally finished off by my personal Rammstein concerts)
      1. Motorist
        Motorist 15 January 2022 20: 08
        0
        Quote: English tarantass
        the population of German teachers in my locality would be completely finished off by my personal Rammstein concerts

        I can advise you Böhse Onkelz - there the texts are harder and more specific. At Rammstein, they went wild (IMHO).
    3. Aag
      Aag 15 January 2022 22: 45
      +1
      Quote: Private SA
      Quote: yuriy55
      Some people like this

      So let them, some, listen to her with headphones. I'm the group "Slade"
      with the album from 1976 "Nobody's fools" on 100 watts of my passport
      I do not output acoustics to the channel. And "Deep Purple" - "Stormbringer".

      Have you seen their headphones?
      No, technology has stepped up ... Yes, yes ... But it seems that "they" need to be beaten in the brain.
      I understand everything - sometimes it is necessary that the internal organs vibrate (some groups are imprisoned for this) ...
      To be honest, dear Private SA, I immediately got excited when reading "Slade". ... Well, like it! First heard from "Jupiter-203". I don’t remember the AC. Apparently, from the kit. I remember that after that I assembled my first UMZCH (well, how I assembled it - diagram, r / details
      1. Aag
        Aag 15 January 2022 23: 50
        +1
        Sorry, the fifth time the comment flies ...
        I remember that after that I assembled my first UMZCH (well, how I assembled it - a diagram, r / details from a friend of my father, a military representative of the plant "RRR" "Radiotecheika" named after Popov, a case, metal from my father, - OZGA-85, - bent himself; soldered under the guidance of Ph.D. (from whom I heard "Slade" for the first time ...
        With this US and passed all the discos in the 9th, 10th grade. With AC 10AC-409.)))
        Fine....
  9. Xlor
    Xlor 15 January 2022 06: 34
    +2
    (goedendag), which literally translates as "good afternoon." In a sense, humor in the Middle Ages was not all that bad.

    The word "Morgenstern" also has a lot of humor in it. It means "morning star"...
    1. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 15 January 2022 07: 47
      -2
      If I'm not mistaken, then Lucifer is also translated.
      Comedians. laughing
  10. nikvic46
    nikvic46 15 January 2022 06: 37
    +5
    Such savage types of weapons are already a different ideology. In the 90s, different punks got stars. I saw victims of this shit. A sad sight. And I also saw the owners of these stars. You spit on him and he shakes with fear. Now amateur hunters are turning into just killers. They got into their hands such a weapon, from which there is no salvation for the animal world. And this is also an ideology.
    1. kytx
      kytx 16 January 2022 04: 54
      0
      I will speak for my area. No stars were used. Chains, nunchucks (thanks to Bruce), clubs of all kinds. Stab-cutting was considered zapadlo.
  11. siberalt
    siberalt 15 January 2022 06: 39
    +3
    Happy New Year comrades!
    Who will tell you how to write to the admin. I have one warning hanging, I don’t remember from what year. But it was made, judging by the content, already in 2018. I would like to know how many years I still have to "serve" allegedly for "provocation" on the site? But something tells me that before the new elections of the new old president...
    1. NDR-791
      NDR-791 15 January 2022 06: 57
      +1
      Scroll below. On a black background, the line "contacts". They usually answer.
      Before the elections, the nonsense remained. laughing
    2. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 15 January 2022 07: 49
      +3
      Quote: siberalt
      . I have one warning hanging, I don’t remember from what year.

      Kill it. Me too. At first I wrote to remove the statute of limitations, then spat.
      Where did they disappear?
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 15 January 2022 08: 10
        +5
        Skomorokhov took it off for me, I asked, he responded.
        Hello Igor!
        1. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 15 January 2022 08: 25
          +3
          Hello Anton! hi
          I wrote to Smirnov, he removed one. Then the second term expired, but he didn’t pull it anymore, it doesn’t interfere with my life.
          As in that saying - "Even though you call it a pot, just don't plant it in the stove!". laughing
    3. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 15 January 2022 10: 22
      +1
      There is a great secret! I had four. Recently accidentally looked - two. On what principle it is done, do not even ask.
  12. riwas
    riwas 15 January 2022 06: 48
    +3
    The presence of three shock elements made it difficult to protect against such weapons.

    In the 90s, I saw an interesting version of a similar weapon. A narrow and long canvas bag stuffed with shot or ball bearings. A decent dent remains in the plaster.
    1. Pattor
      Pattor 15 January 2022 10: 09
      +3
      This is the sausage that was described.
  13. Mikhalych
    Mikhalych 15 January 2022 07: 51
    0
    Morgenstern is German for "morning star".

    The morning star is one of the names of Satan. So that's the name of the rapper Morgenstern. am
    1. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 15 January 2022 08: 19
      +4
      Catholics, what to take from them. Wild people. Scientists were burned at the stake.
      In Russia, she was called Zerenitsa, Zoryanitsa, and personified Dennitsa. Sister of the Sun God. Many words now have a different meaning.
      By the way, the word blasphemy in etymology has a completely different meaning than that of the priests.
  14. Drozdov
    Drozdov 15 January 2022 08: 42
    +2
    well, yes, with such weapons only with good-natured people - the Italians will ride to fight. In one trench they got it, and the whole army draped. They are like that).
    1. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 15 January 2022 09: 23
      +1
      Quote: Drozdov
      with such a weapon only with good-natured people - the Italians will give a ride to make war

      Well, not only with the Italians a ride! ...

      But there was no time to fasten the spikes ... and so it went!
      1. Avior
        Avior 15 January 2022 10: 38
        +5
        Unfortunately, this is somewhat of a myth.
        1. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 15 January 2022 12: 02
          +2
          Quote: Avior
          Unfortunately, this is somewhat of a myth.

          I do not argue ! I deliberately placed a somewhat inaccurate "version" here, in the expectation that there will be experts who will correct me! Thus, you can "guess" how many "people" know the real story ...
      2. English tarantas
        English tarantas 15 January 2022 12: 39
        0
        I just couldn't find a way.)
  15. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 15 January 2022 09: 11
    +3
    And I used to think ... otkedova took in our childhood a "saying": "Guten morgen, guten so ... slap in the face just like that!" ... Now I understand!
  16. sergo1914
    sergo1914 15 January 2022 09: 35
    0
    The National Guard is worth a look. An effective weapon to disperse the crowd.
    PS If anything, I mean the singer. What did you think?
    1. Aag
      Aag 15 January 2022 23: 45
      +1
      Quote: sergo1914
      The National Guard is worth a look. An effective weapon to disperse the crowd.
      PS If anything, I mean the singer. What did you think?

      Flail, just effective for defeating the enemy Behind the shield! The Russian Guard will not be grateful to you ...)))
  17. sivuch
    sivuch 15 January 2022 09: 58
    +2
    There are big doubts that it is so easy and simple to wield a rapper on a chain. With a lack of skill, it was possible to hook yourself, a loved one or your horse
    1. Ingvar K
      Ingvar K 15 January 2022 10: 29
      +1
      Since childhood, the grain has been threshed, there is more than enough experience, even for "weak" women, plus the development of a certain muscle group.
      1. sivuch
        sivuch 15 January 2022 15: 55
        +1
        Here we are talking about the coordination of movements in a rapidly changing environment. The grain does not dodge and does not parade.
      2. ViacheslavS
        ViacheslavS 20 January 2022 17: 26
        0
        The lumberjack also swings an ax around the clock, but he does not become a master of ax fighting.
    2. ViacheslavS
      ViacheslavS 20 January 2022 17: 23
      0
      As someone who was engaged in historical fencing, I agree that this weapon still requires higher training so as not to tritely kill oneself.
  18. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 15 January 2022 10: 00
    +9
    the process of making a morning star was not complicated. If the shock part (beat) was made of iron, then the spikes were often simply welded to it.
    God! It seems that I read Shpakovsky. Author! Yes, you ... Tell me how "simple" it is - to weld not flat, but standing under 90 gr. element FORGE WELDING?! Just awesome.
    In a battle with an unarmored opponent, the spikes ... did not play a role. Traumatic brain injury. Historians are historians! I don’t have any censorship words about the brain activity of these people) Not at all)) Absolutely.
    Dumping two completely different types of weapons into one pile ... Well, okay, such is the brain of historians. The first was an ordinary clumsy club, into which they stuck nails and other pieces of iron that they managed to steal. I would say that this is a weapon of the proletariat, but there was no proletariat then) It was used by peasants and mercenaries who found themselves without serious weapons and money. Booze, sir!
    An unarmed person can be considered to be torn to pieces. But even for an armored warrior there is little joy. The spike allows you to concentrate the impact energy on a very small area. Historians will not understand, not those mental abilities, but for smarter people - you yourself understand, this way you can break through the strongest armor anywhere, causing considerable damage. A simple and very dangerous thing. Once hit a tough and pontovy knight on a huge horse on the leg and that's it - the knight won back.
    What the author calls kettenmorgenstern is, in principle, a different weapon. For the best pros. For masters. And it is intended, like a combat flail (there was also a civilian one, of course)), to solve the most important task on the battlefield. To BYPASS THE SHIELD. It is very difficult to fight a pro who has a good, strong shield. It's very difficult to get it. In the ranks, and in general ... And the ball on the chain made it possible to hit over the edge of the shield, falling much lower. You can't do that with a sword, a spear, or even an axe. But this weapon is terribly capricious. Years of training are needed, at considerable risk to oneself... Refined, complex, in some ways even beautiful weapons of the masters.

    Historians are such historians ...
    1. Ingvar K
      Ingvar K 15 January 2022 10: 34
      +2
      You state well, especially about shields, people with practical experience now know such subtleties, am I right? ))))))
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 15 January 2022 10: 39
        0
        It is possible to say so. I have something to do with people having fun in buhurts) But no practical experience is needed for my conclusions. All you need is some basic analytical thinking. When a child says that he does not understand mathematics, he should not be listened to, but flogged. Well, or otherwise severely punished. Because absolutely everyone can understand mathematics at their age, it's just that the child is too lazy. If you still force him to move his brains, so that he pulls mathematics and physics at least for fours, he will easily repeat all my conclusions. It's all clear.)
        But when the kid managed to get away from the development of the brain, then the titans of the mind like the author appear. He saw a couple of times on YouTube how pieces of iron are cooked, and decided that in some 12-14th century everything was just as "simple". And with such a wealth of knowledge and skills, this person writes about weapons. And nothing! I suppose he also has a degree) From "scientists" like him. Shameful...
        1. Ingvar K
          Ingvar K 15 January 2022 10: 58
          +1
          With shields, understanding comes in practice in everyday life; this is not relevant today. I agree about historians. Everyone procrastinates the opinion of some "authority" without bothering, but how it works live. And with spikes is a moot point. The concentration of a blow on one spike is, of course, a slander or the same mace - based on the point of contact upon impact (that's why rounded spikes were placed on it). Morgenstern spikes are more for bloodletting. If it was not possible to stun the enemy, then due to the loss of blood from wounds, he himself will fall from impotence. And I completely agree about skills and training. I practice in the field with a battle hatchet - a terrible thing when you master the dynamics and the point of application.
          1. Mikhail3
            Mikhail3 15 January 2022 11: 16
            0
            Quote: Ingvar K
            With shields, understanding comes in practice in everyday life, this is not relevant today
            On what?! You kill, then, another robber in a skirmish, as usual on Sundays ... right?)) I'm an engineer) I look at the picture - two infantrymen with shields and swords are standing opposite each other. You start to figure out the kinematic scheme, how exactly they fight with each other, what problems they have, strengths and weaknesses. Then you look at the combat chill and immediately see what they came up with for what. No problem. It is not at all necessary to beat the enemy to death with a crowbar in order to be fascinated by the beauty of Japanese martial thought - tetsubo))
            Your conclusions about spikes) How much less dangerous is a blow with a rounded spike than with a sharp one? For the difference in areas, still take into account the coefficient. The area of ​​the spike is one millimeter, the area of ​​the round thickening is ten. When breaking through armor, one, maximum one and a half mm thick, the expansion of the spike as it sinks can be neglected, so that breaking through the plate of the cuirass with a morning star spike is 8-9 times more effective than with a mace. We go further. The thickening of the mace can sink into the armor by no more than 1 cm. All the energy of the blow is realized, and not only in this area, but also in the one that is around the thickening, because the mace itself has arrived in time) And the spike of the morning star continues to sink deeper, because all the energy of the blow is still concentrated in it, and is spent only on pushing the armor plate apart with a gradually expanding spike. Mercenaries can easily choose the weight of the ball and the thickness of the spike empirically, according to the results.
            It is not bad if the spike breaks after the impact, since it will not be easy to free the weapon from the armor.
            Here is such an approach. Just mind. In general, the idea "didn't see it live, didn't do it, you can't judge" is an excuse for your own stupidity. Very popular among fools. Since I have not seen, I can not understand anything, so it is pointless to strain the mind. I'd rather watch porn. You did not understand anything because your brains are weak and lazy)
            Don't fall into this lazy mind trap, don't join the billions of "qualified consumers")
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 15 January 2022 12: 09
              +5
              Yuferov's articles are a song.
              At first, the author, without understanding, gives out pearls. Then even more illiterate commentators begin to criticize him with inimitable pathos and aplomb.
              The area of ​​the spike is one millimeter, the area of ​​the round thickening is ten. When breaking through armor, one, maximum one and a half mm thick, the expansion of the spike as it sinks can be neglected, so that breaking through the plate of the cuirass with a morning star spike is 8-9 times more effective than with a mace.

              Morgenstern is not designed to pierce armor. Generally. Its spikes in the "1mm area" version are corny too long and thin and therefore too prone to breaking and bending.
              It's doubly fun if you remember that the morningstar is primarily a peasant weapon and is usually made from reforged hardware of the appropriate quality.
              Armor was fought with poleaxes and Lucerne hammers.

              If the spike is short with a very powerful and thick base for strength and rigidity. The connection with the ax handle is much more reliable than that of the morningstar spike.
              1. Mikhail3
                Mikhail3 15 January 2022 12: 58
                -1
                There is no need to remember anything in the question in which physics decides. It is against the armor that the morning star is best, except for the klevets, perhaps, well, or gizmos like chupagi. You are guided by "historical sources", and not by reality. Yes, in the "sources", the writing of which was paid for by knightly (read - bandit) money, the morning star is the "despicable" weapon of the poor) Well, there is the "ignoble" bow, I am silent about the crossbow. Anything ungrateful that can put a darling knight out of action.
                And in fact, over there, in the article, there are photographs. Thin? Are you seriously?! Peasant crafts will be pretty clumsy, yes. But it's nothing. It is possible to break a bone in the leg, having squandered the leg like paper, with a thin spike. Let him break down.
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 15 January 2022 13: 29
                  +7
                  I love the opinion of people who have not read a single book or at least an article on the subject, but speak with confidence about reality.
                  Did an eyewitness of the Battle of Courtrai, a veteran of Azincourt and a hero of Nancy, visit VO?
                  Emperor Maximilian did not consider it shameful to practice with a flail, a peasant weapon.

                  But Morgenstern of course ignored despite his mega-coolness, yeah.
                  Morgenstern spines are either too thin or too weakly expressed. At the same time, even a schoolboy can see that when a morning star penetrates into the body, neighboring spikes
                  (in the case of a long version of the spikes) they become "unexpected" and tritely interfere with inflicting a full-fledged wound on an armored enemy with underarmor. That's all physics.
                  Already one abundance of spikes should suggest that this is a very unreliable weapon prone to bending, breaking and falling out of spikes. And the number of spikes is designed to compensate for this - you turned it a little in your hand and nail it again.
                  It is possible to break a bone in the leg, having squandered the leg like paper, with a thin spike. Let him break down.

                  You should at least read about the tests of needle arrows-bodkins on plate and white armor. Like paper, yeah
                  1. Mikhail3
                    Mikhail3 15 January 2022 22: 48
                    -1
                    I love readers who have never made it out of ivory towers. Cool) There are photos over there. Again. For the most readers. Are these spikes easy to break? Raise his eyelids!
                    By surprise? What is this, a blow to a flat sheet of metal? On the human body, suddenly, there is no flat surface of a large area. Turned? In battle? Young man, did you ever fight as a child?))
                    When I was interested in the question about the strength of the armor, I did not read the tests of historians, I am not interested in illiterate attempts. I first went to the workshop, drilled a hole in a steel bar, not through, if anything), put a nail into it and with the resulting "weapon" cracked the steel sheet well. I was probably 14 years old, so I began to look for formulas that describe the result only later.
                    In order to write correctly and understand something in armor and weapons, one must have at least an engineering education. To write about them PROFESSIONALLY, you need to have a higher education in metalworking. I don’t have this, I’m just an engineer in a slightly different field, so I don’t aim at professionalism. Did any of the "testers" who claim to specialize in medieval holodnyak, at least manage to unlearn at a vocational school? At least for a locksmith? Both the article and the comments are such trash and waste ... just tests of bodkin arrows))
              2. Undecim
                Undecim 15 January 2022 13: 30
                +3
                Yuferov's articles are a song.

                This is the standby version of the content, "fast food", if there is nothing to serve to the table. Ready in half an hour. In this case, the article is from Wikipedia. But since the author of the Wikipedia article did not understand the intricacies of the issue very well, and the rewriter even less, the song turned out to be appropriate.
            2. Ingvar K
              Ingvar K 17 January 2022 21: 52
              0
              I welcome your enthusiasm, but there are aspects not from theoretical mechanics. I saw the work with the sword on the shield live, it’s really difficult to get the enemy, but it’s possible. The Morgenstern is primarily a stunning weapon due to the large shoulder, as an engineer, you will understand me., Therefore, it is not noble. Spikes on it for bloodletting. But the bludgeon is already a different class of weapon, like the mace, and their emphasis was solely on the shock-crushing action due to inertia. By the way, the spikes can get stuck and then the fighter is finished.
    2. SSA
      SSA 19 January 2022 12: 25
      0
      Quote: Mikhail3
      To BYPASS THE SHIELD. It is very difficult to fight a pro who has a good, strong shield. It's very difficult to get it. In the ranks and in general ... And the ball on the chain made it possible to hit over the edge of the shield, falling much lower


      - not true, the shield has nothing to do with it. The chain is a flexible element between the static element (handle) and the shock moving element (ball), which serves to create centrifugal force. As a result of applying a small muscular force to the handle (swing), centrifugal force arises and the ball, accelerating along an arc, acquires significant kinetic energy, transferring it to the contact surface (impact).

      Kinetic energy \uXNUMXd mass of the body times the speed of the body squared divided by two.
      This effect, without any shields and formulas, was used by the New Zealand natives in the weapon "mayor" - a stone at the end of a rope. Spinning a stone on a rope, the native brought it down on the enemy, causing injury.

      Shields are conditionally divided into stationary and maneuverable.
      Stationary shield - used for fighting in close formation, hiding a warrior behind him, while one edge rested on the ground, the warrior, without looking, stabbed with a spear or chopped with a sword, hiding behind a wall of shields. Striking with a ball at the end of the chain, on the edge of such a shield, will have no effect, unless the chain is too long, but a long chain is extremely inconvenient.

      Maneuverable shield - was used to parry the blows of the enemy's weapons, that is, the shield was substituted by the warrior under the shock part of the enemy's weapon. The warrior will substitute the shield under the blow of the ball and this will not allow you to get any advantage over him.

      Quote: Mikhail3
      The spike allows you to concentrate the impact energy on a very small area. Historians will not understand, not those mental abilities, but for smarter people - you yourself understand, this way you can break through the strongest armor anywhere, causing considerable damage. A simple and very dangerous thing. Once hit a tough and pontoon knight on a huge horse on the leg and that's it - the knight won back

      - not true. You can deliver a concentrated blow with a dagger, and a mace or spiked flail is not at all designed for spiked strikes. The spikes serve to ensure that in the event of movement of the impact surface of the mace, tangentially (as they say in passing) the protruding edges of the spike cause lacerations of soft tissues. On the one hand, such wounds cause pain shock, on the other hand, the uneven edges of the wound do not allow it to heal, which leads to bleeding and a high probability of infection of the wound. In this part, lacerations are much more dangerous than cut wounds.
  19. ares1988
    ares1988 15 January 2022 11: 41
    0
    Morgenstern of a healthy person)
  20. Konnick
    Konnick 15 January 2022 11: 54
    0
    Quote: yuriy55
    Quote: Avior
    And the middle one is with a morning star!

    Rather - with a club (mace) ... yes



    This mace was found on the famous Zolotarevsky settlement, there are many questions about it. Someone considers this mace to be a steel casting, although during the time of Batu's invasion there was no such technology. And it looks a lot like Morgenstern.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 15 January 2022 12: 01
      0
      This mace was found on the famous Zolotarevsky settlement, there are many questions about it.

      And what are the questions?
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 15 January 2022 12: 17
        -2
        And what are the questions?

        Manufacturing questions
        https://guns.allzip.org/topic/79/942171.html

        Burtas knives do not rust! On the Zolotarevsky hillfort, metal objects are found that do not rust.
        - You dig such a knife out of the ground, shake it off, and you can cut bread or sausage, - says Gennady Belorybkin. - Why does this metal not corrode? A question without an answer.
        3. What language did they speak? Discussions on this topic do not subside. Some scientists believe that the Burtases spoke the language of the Finno-Ugric group (like the Mordovians). Others believe that the ancient Zolotarevians were Turks (like Tatars). Another version is that the Burtases were related to the ancestors of the current Ossetians. It is known that this mysterious people used animal skins for writing - they have not been preserved.
        4. Where is their cemetery? The cemetery of the ancient Zolotarevtsy has not yet been found. By the way, no burials were found in other Burtas settlements found in the Penza region.
        - We assume that this is connected with Zoroastrianism, - Professor Belorybkin voices his version. - According to some sources, it is known that the Burtases were Zoroastrians. How were the followers of this religion buried? In Iran, they built towers with the bottom raised above the ground and threw corpses there. In Central Asia, the Zoroastrians buried human remains in alabaster boxes.
        5. Innovative Mace A XNUMXth-century mace was found on the battlefield. But the analysis showed that this weapon was made on Swiss equipment at the end of the XNUMXth century. Lie devices? Of course not. This means that the inhabitants of the Zolotarevsky settlement owned some unknown high technologies.
        Burtases have a lot to learn for today's innovators!

        Belorybkin is a professor of history at Penza University. Steel casting appeared in the middle of the 19th century.
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 15 January 2022 12: 29
          +1
          Innovative Mace A XNUMXth-century mace was found on the battlefield. But the analysis showed that this weapon was made on Swiss equipment at the end of the XNUMXth century.

          Do you really believe that?
          1. Konnick
            Konnick 15 January 2022 13: 13
            +1
            Do you really believe that?

            It's a joke of humor drinks
        2. Mikhail3
          Mikhail3 15 January 2022 13: 10
          -1
          Quote: Konnick
          Why does this metal not corrode? A question without an answer.

          Well, how can one take such "scientists" and what they call their "science" seriously?! Hey, genius, give the mace for analysis! Why are you stupidly poking at her, not allowing you to touch it? What, to all hell, is "historical value" if there is no RESEARCH, but only to puff out your cheeks? This is me about Belorybkin, who did not understand.
          Quote: Konnick
          a XNUMXth-century mace was found. But the analysis showed that this weapon was made on Swiss equipment at the end of the XNUMXth century.
          Stick this nonsense to yourself ... A certain "analysis" was carried out, but the composition of the metal was not determined. Ugh! Clowns are people of a much more serious profession than historians ...
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 15 January 2022 13: 17
            +2
            But why are you so directly worried that you started to be rude? And it’s not worth scratching all historians with the same brush. As in any field of activity there are specialists of different levels, so in history.
            1. Ua3qhp
              Ua3qhp 15 January 2022 19: 42
              0
              And what problems do the chemical analysis of the metal?
              Large but not very companies can do this for historians for free. It depends on what letters they write.
  21. balabol
    balabol 15 January 2022 12: 50
    0

    trench batons
    World War I Museum
  22. Pavel57
    Pavel57 15 January 2022 17: 31
    -2
    The Germans used similar devices to finish off the wounded.
  23. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 15 January 2022 19: 40
    +2
    Read and wonder laughing

    In fact, it has long been believed that all these pictures and museum samples are exclusively ceremonial weapons. In real combat, the so-called morgenstein is an extremely impractical and inconvenient weapon. It is easy to guess that even a spiked mace or a spiked flail will poke you and your horse in all sorts of places in the most unpleasant way. But even worse, such a spiked weapon, after the first blow, will be firmly stuck in the enemy’s shield! (and if you're lucky, it's in his head) But such luck is not for long, because you are unarmed after the first blow.

    Therefore, both the flail and the mace were actively used, but of course without spikes. To bounce and allow you to hit from the heart many, many more times.

    In general, Morgenstein is a vivid example of medieval propaganda! laughing
    1. Murrr 27
      Murrr 27 18 January 2022 14: 53
      +1
      Oh ... I thought I was the only one so stupid that I immediately thought about getting stuck .....
    2. SSA
      SSA 19 January 2022 11: 14
      0
      Lots of misconceptions. And everyone.

      1. The ball on the chain did not serve at all to go around the shield, but to increase the force and speed of the blow, due to the occurrence of a centrifugal effect, without the use of significant physical force.

      2. Weapons and spikes on it, not at all for breaking through armor. It is difficult to hit thick armor (for example, a cuirass) in the chest area with this weapon, since the trajectory of the impact element falls on the "outskirts" of the body! The main purpose of the weapon, striking, on the arms and legs, the collarbone, which leads to fractures, regardless of whether there is chain mail or other flexible armor, as well as on the head, while the big helmet made it easier to hit the target and resulted, if not cranially -brain injury, then to a strong stunning of the enemy, loss of orientation.

      4. The spikes on the weapon were intended to inflict lacerations, since if the enemy managed to dodge fast, strong, but very predictable blows, with great inertia, then the impact element slid along the enemy without harming him. But the spikes tore (namely, they tore, and did not cut) soft tissues, causing pain shock and causing profusely bleeding, poorly healing wounds. The jagged edges of the torn flesh did not allow the wound to heal quickly, unlike a cut with a saber or sword.

      5. The spikes didn't get stuck in the armor. These are conjectures. This situation was demonstrated in the movie "Game of Thrones" when the knight of Mount Clegane was hit with a spiked mace and the mace got stuck in the cuirass.

      In fact, armor, even among the nobility, rarely made up a single piece, as a rule it was plate armor or chain mail. And for infantry soldiers, the armor was leather with metal elements in the form of disks, rhombuses, rectangles, etc. The task of such armor is to protect against penetration deep into the body, an arrow at the end, or from a chopping blow.
      Small in depth, wide, the spike contacting at an angle with the surface of the protection, tore armor, chain mail, leather armor, leaving a rather wide contact patch without the effect of jamming.
      1. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse 19 January 2022 21: 04
        +1
        Quote: SSA
        The spikes didn't get stuck in the armor. These are conjectures.

        A Hollywood movie doesn't fit well as an argument. Of course, the splayed spikes will get stuck. And chain mail and plate armor, they are quite solid. Having broken through or broken through a part, the spikes will catch and get stuck. The skin on the armor is far from the same as on the kid gloves, you can’t always cut the skin of a buffalo with an ax, but you are going to tear it .. The shields are again wooden with a metal edging. And get stuck in them.

        In general, there was a more real weapon, a shestoper. The same mace, but not with spikes, but with several solid protrusion blades. Just because of the problems with the spikes, they came up with it.

        Well, in general, weapons capable of getting stuck were also used. Klevets for example. But here they did not forget to supply the kletz with the other side, in the form of a hammer. They beat him with a hammer. And with a sharp beak already fallen, so as not to bother with finishing off.
        1. SSA
          SSA 20 January 2022 14: 41
          0
          Quote: Saxahorse
          And chain mail and plate armor, they are quite solid. Having broken or broken a part, the spikes will catch and get stuck

          Flexible Armor Moves! The mechanics of "hooking" (for example, a hook for clothes) and "jamming" (an ax in a chock) are two completely different processes.
          When the ax pierces into the chock, the fibers of the chock compress the ax, a friction force arises, it is she who does not allow the ax to be pulled out. Clutch has nothing to do with it.
          In flexible armor, even chain mail from rings, even armor from plates, even leather, the surface in contact with the spikes is flexible, movable. This is not a chump for you.

          In turn, the spike has a small contact area, it does not have the shape of a wedge, like a splitting ax, for example, and it has a small length. During the strike on the chain mail, the contact of the spike occurs AT AN ANGLE, and the contact patch is UNEVEN, it does not correspond to the dimensions of the spike! In no way will a club, a spiked mace, or a morning star get stuck in flexible mail.
          1. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 20 January 2022 22: 10
            +1
            Quote: SSA
            During a blow to the chain mail, the spike contacts AT AN ANGLE

            Exactly at an angle. There are many spikes and they stick out in opposite directions. Having broken through or washed the chain mail, the edges of the spikes will go under the neighboring rings. And if you remember that they will pull out the flail or mace in the opposite direction, not strictly along the reverse trajectory of the impact, but probably at a certain angle - the hooking of the spikes on the rings or the edges of the plates is simply guaranteed.
  24. Aag
    Aag 15 January 2022 23: 38
    +1
    Who would have thought that the title, article, the author of the article would collect so many interesting comments and opinions?!
    I confess, in some - I was careful not to meddle (with a Kalash snout ...)
    But, I was satisfied with the moral, for the most part I received it. Thanks to the participants!
  25. Private SA
    Private SA 16 January 2022 00: 09
    0
    Quote: AAG
    But it seems that "they" need to be beaten in the brain.

    Do they also have cerebral convolutions of the cerebral cortex on top of the cerebellum?
  26. Illanatol
    Illanatol 16 January 2022 09: 25
    +1
    In fact, this weapon appeared from an agricultural inventory - from an ordinary flail, a device for threshing bread.
    Probably, the peasants thought of using the flail as a weapon during the time of some kind of "jaquerie", then the pros began to use it after the necessary modification.
    Well, in Russia, such weapons began to be used earlier by the Germans.
    It remains to add that the nunchucks (also from a small flail for threshing rice) became a portable analogue of the "morning star" in the countries of the Far East.
    1. SSA
      SSA 19 January 2022 12: 40
      0
      This weapon did not come from agricultural. inventory, but from human understanding of physical processes, namely the effect of centrifugal force.

      The natives of New Zealand, who did not even reach the Bronze Age and did not know about the existence of a flail for threshing anything, used the “mayor” weapon - a stone tied to the end of a rope about 60 cm long. Spinning the stone in an arc, the Indian brought it down on the enemy. All nuntyaks and other types of weapons are based on the same principle of centrifugal force, consisting of the following elements: 1. element "handle", - 2. connecting element - chain, 3. movable element - "ball".
      The application of a small muscular force to the handle causes the moving element of the "ball" to move in an arc, which generates centrifugal force. The speed of the moving "ball" increases, and hence the kinetic energy also increases. At the moment of collision of the ball with the surface, there is a transfer of kinetic energy to the body - an impact.
  27. Illanatol
    Illanatol 16 January 2022 13: 49
    0
    Quote: depressant
    Morgenstern - Morning Star - Lucifer - Devil.


    You clearly overestimate the erudition of this rapper.
    By the way, the "morning star" was called the planet Venus (among the Romans - the goddess of love).
    And Lucifer, although the devil allegedly did a lot for humanity, taught a lot. Probably Lucifer was copied from the ancient Prometheus.
    The name "Lucifer" can be loosely translated as "Illuminator".
  28. Valery Vp
    Valery Vp 14 February 2022 12: 02
    0
    "Kettenmorgenstern was often an ordinary threshing flail, which in peacetime could well be used to GRIND grain. All my life I thought that another weapon was needed here - Mühle, well, in extreme cases, Zerkleinerungsmaschine ...
  29. Altmann
    Altmann 8 March 2022 21: 15
    0
    This weapon is associated with the Hussite wars in Bohemia, only later it was adopted by fighters in the German regions of Europe. With this weapon, the Czechs could resist knights in heavy armor. am