The Russian Navy of the Future: for a Parade or for a War?

146

Very strange things are happening in the world today. What is only the recent call of the member states of the nuclear club about the non-destruction of all living things with the help of their arsenals. It looked very ... peculiar. Like rock against drugs, and bees against honey. This is roughly how the statement of the powers that are steadily building up their nuclear arsenals looked like.

Thank God, the world is not yet a theater, and a gun on stage does not have to go off. Till.



These various treaties and agreements, which are supposedly designed to limit the world arms race, look funnier every year. But it's been a hundred years since ...

Okay, almost a hundred years. I have already touched on the articles about the ships of the very Washington agreement. By the way, he will soon be 100 years old. In fact, this is the first attempt to somehow limit the desire to rivet deadly machines with a larger number and a more impressive caliber.

Yes, February 6, 2022 will be exactly 100 years since the UK, USA, France, Italy and Japan decided not to build large numbers of battleships and heavy cruisers. No, the step, of course, was a big one, but ...

But everyone immediately rushed to cheat. And some of them build aircraft carriers, light cruisers and destroyers that are not prohibited by the treaty. And Germany, which did not sign anything, but which had the Versailles Treaty, built such a submarine fleet that everyone hiccuped for a very long time.


Well, in 1936, when the Treaty ceased to be in force, everyone breathed a sigh of relief and rushed to build everything. And then heat everything built. Mostly in the Pacific Ocean.


Pacific Ocean…

During the First World War, it was relatively calm. Rare operations by German cruisers and British fleet... It was hot during the second. Japan vs. USA, UK, Australia, New Zealand and Holland.

Today, a confrontation is outlined in no way inferior to what it was during the Second World War. But there are more participants, the participants have very impressive forces, and the confrontation region itself has become larger. The Indian Ocean was added to the Pacific Ocean.

Today experts generally say that the Indo-Pacific theater of operations will soon appear on military maps. It is here that the confrontations between India and the PRC, the USA and the PRC, Japan and the PRC, Japan and Russia, and so on, are predicted. There are too many strong players, too many interests.


Plus a heated fear of a possible Chinese expansion, which will begin with the capture of Taiwan.

China is building its fleet today at an unprecedented pace. 12 destroyers are being prepared for commissioning, five of which (project 055) are very comparable to missile cruisers. In the West, they are considered as such. Plus the third aircraft carrier and the fourth on the way.

Japan is in no way inferior to China. The built new Maya-class destroyers (which are also not much inferior to the Arleigh Burke), plus the conversion of the Izumo helicopter carriers into aircraft carriers - looks very promising.

Moreover, the fleets of the PRC and Japan are clearly being built ahead of schedule. To guard / defend borders, this number of ships is more than redundant.

Approximately the same as in the United States.

By the way, the American fleet is also "in the batch". The ships of the US Navy, which are forced to be on duty in all regions, clearly cannot withstand this race. Ships spend a lot of time at sea, which makes it necessary to reduce the time of maintenance and repairs to a minimum.


The demonstration of strength by China forces us to respond, but the fact that the PRC is demonstrating strength is in fact simply a response to the fact that in the United States and among the satellites today, China is portrayed as the Empire of Evil with all the ensuing consequences.

The expansion of China, the aggression against Taiwan with its subsequent annexation - they talked about this very loudly and a lot, but ... It did not work out. Annexation is still a big question, as is the ability of the United States to protect its allies.

But alliances are generally a delicate matter. As the events surrounding the Australian submarine contracts have shown, relations between allies can easily be torpedoed with the help of money. And the sharp turn of Australia from France to Great Britain in general does not threaten the alliance with anything special, but in particular, further events will show.

Of course, the United States does not care who will build the boats, as long as the matter does not stand. It will be necessary to strengthen the grouping in the Pacific Ocean, but here it is clearly visible that the United States alone is not able to do this. Allies are needed.

However, as practice shows, not all allies can in fact turn out to be as executive as Japan. There are those who, first of all, think about their own benefit, rather than about the general one.

Meanwhile, there is also a new player in the region. This is India.


Having built another aircraft carrier, the Vikrant, the Indian command is considering a third ship of this class. Plus India has focused its efforts on creating a large number of submarines, both of its own production and received, for example, from Russia.

The injection is in progress. Great Britain sent its group of ships to the region, led by an aircraft carrier. Even offended France and Germany, which in general has nothing to do with that region, sent their ships.

Demonstration of the flag? Well, of course. It is clear that no one wants a war, does not even plan. But everyone is preparing so hard for the struggle for peace that sometimes it becomes scary.

Yes, a century ago it was possible to calculate the naval forces of states in terms of tonnage, number of ships, caliber of guns. Today everything is leveled.

However, the fate of the world can easily be decided at sea. If only because in a naval battle you can inflict damage on the enemy without destroying cities with a population. This, of course, is written on the water with a pitchfork, but naval battles, whatever one may say, are still taking place. From the Argentine-British showdown for the Falklands to the Indo-Pakistani wars.

Sea space is a unique thing. The entire land is divided between states, jealously defending their sovereignty over the territories. The air over land is also divided by borders, which are guarded no less zealously than the land borders of states. And the sea / ocean is still free.

Today, ships (including military ones) of any country can still freely approach and even pass through the territorial waters of other states. Plus, any country that has a navy can easily project power into the area that is washed by the seas, regardless of where this area is located.


Photo: mil.ru

All seas and oceans are somehow connected to each other.

So the Falklands and the Gulf War showed very well what tasks a good navy can accomplish. Up to the destruction of the statehood of a single country.

Today, the confrontation at sea is very different from the race of dreadnoughts from the beginning of the last century or the aircraft carriers and battleships of the middle. The possibility of using nuclear weapons (which we do not consider, preferring to talk about waging wars within the framework of conventions) leaves an imprint on how confrontation can proceed.

Like the hot phase of the Cold War.

And here the number of warships is an important element. But just as important are things like having an auxiliary fleet. China, for example, can easily display about a thousand of its fishing ships as anti-submarine. Sorry Sonar, it doesn't matter who to work out, a shoal of cod or a submarine.

The presence of such power behind your back can greatly facilitate the life of your fleet and complicate the actions of enemy ships.

Port infrastructure. The very presence of a large number of ports capable of refueling ships, loading food and ammunition is a very significant component.

And in the very near future, the trips of the retrofitted fishing seiners will be just as important as the AUG raids. And the port infrastructure, properly adjusted, will be able to constantly maintain the presence in the sea of ​​a large number of ships that will control the waters of a given region.

Well, if you also remember how individual countries from a deserted reef yesterday today create an island with an airfield ...

Naturally, everything must be considered as a whole. On the water, under water, on the banks and in the air above ships. It is more difficult, more specific, since, unlike land confrontations, there is another dimension under water here.

So the capabilities of the naval forces of any country are a very important detail in political and military confrontations.


Photo: mil.ru

And if you look at the results of the past year, our Navy is very, very far from ideal. Especially in the Pacific Ocean.

When in 2020 a new virus began its march across the planet, it even seemed for a second that here it is, that threat in the face of which all humanity can forget about the possibility of destroying the world, because this time the world will be destroyed without human help. Well, almost no help. On the one hand, yes, the virus threatened everyone equally: both Chinese rice growers and businessmen from Soho.

But no, on the contrary, the virus became a reason for worsening with some, and warm friendship against others.

It is quite natural that now every large (and not large either) country seeks to create a kind of cocoon of security around itself. In which it is relatively safe to wait out newfangled phenomena such as viruses, refugees from impoverished countries, and so on.

Everyone has already heard, including from the lips of Russian politicians, such a term as "zone of influence." In fact, it is a perimeter “only for insiders”. And many active players are developing such schemes.

China is implementing the "Asian Mediterranean" concept. Turkey - Blue Homeland project. India - SAGAR project. Australia, Argentina, Brazil. Brazilian warships in general very often began to be seen off the African coast in the South Atlantic, where the Brazilians seem to be engaged in the fight against pirates.

In general, almost every country with a decent military fleet, you can find similar projects. The exceptions, perhaps, are the United States and Russia. For the former, the zone of interests is the whole world, Russia ... Perhaps it is even strange that we do not have such a concept in the development of such a concept.

Meanwhile, the right to control key areas of the seas is very serious. In this respect, we are very far behind the key maritime players, China, Japan, and the United States. Meanwhile, our fleet looks from year to year more and more frivolous against the background of what is happening in the PRC and Japan.

We have really sunk to the point that we are trying to solve our problems in the seas by modernizing forty-year-old Soviet-built ships. And we give out (fortunately, the patriotic part of the public welcomes this with applause) for the achievement of such modernization.

Russian fleets, not only that they are disunited and scattered across the seas, do not look today as a force capable of controlling at least something. Maximum - yes, to demonstrate somewhere a flag, nothing more.

For some reason, in our country, not only at the level of the layman, it is generally accepted that the fleet is a kind of expensive toy for admirals, providing them with career growth. And nothing more.

Soon we will not have a decent military fleet at such a pace. And the second minus of our time is the real absence of a maritime policy.

And here an unpleasant conclusion arises: if the navy is a luxury, then the naval policy is an unacceptable luxury, since it implies a strong navy.

Meanwhile, it is the fleet, a strong, powerful and modern fleet that is capable of pushing the threat away from the country's borders. Not a military alliance between Belarus and Russia, which, in my opinion, is more than dubious, but the fleet. The fact that, for example, missiles or interceptor missiles can be deployed on the territory of Belarus, is a laugh. All this is leveled by the same missiles and anti-missiles on the territories of Moldova, Poland, Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania.

Two dozen submarine cruisers stuffed with cruise missiles with nuclear warheads - this is what will much more effectively make the same United States think that the real threat is located directly at their borders. Yes, marine. But what is more valuable a rocket launched from land than one that is launched from under water?

Russia cannot afford not to have such an important strategic component as the fleet. Not eligible for the absence of a maritime concept and an active maritime policy. We have no right to be helpless.

Those who have no strength are doomed to defeat.
146 comments
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  1. +15
    7 January 2022 05: 33
    Once the Soviet Navy was the second most powerful in the world. Now, at best, fourth. All this is regrettable. But it will only get worse. And all from the lack of not only funds, but also an industrial base. Our industry is not able to create a powerful world-class fleet.
    1. -11
      7 January 2022 06: 10
      Less to you from me.
      The points.
      1. There is money and it is allocated regularly.
      2. At the moment, there are at least 4 shipbuilding points: in the Baltic (Admiralteyskie and Yantar), in the North (Sevmash), on Tikhiy (Zvezda and Amurskiy), on the Black (Zaliv).
      So there is a place to build a fleet. And with the replacement of Ukrainian turbines, things have moved forward.
      3. Our nuclear submarines are very even at the world level.
      But what exactly interferes is the lack of a concept for the development and use of the fleet. Without a concept of application, it will not be possible to design ships and, therefore, build, and without a concept of development, conduct research for the future.
      So the problem is in our heads, the general staff did not solve them in time. Although the latest statements by Shoigu on this topic were encouraging.
      1. -6
        7 January 2022 07: 46
        Two dozen submarine cruisers…. To what figure will the retirement age need to be raised?
        1. -2
          7 January 2022 18: 49
          The construction of at least 20 more Yasen M nuclear submarines will cost the Ministry of Defense 900 billion rubles, and this is a service infrastructure for weapons and crew training, and at the same time the price tag for these Wishlist will go far beyond a trillion rubles. And this is just one series of submarines. Russia has a defense doctrine of a large fleet and large ships, we do not need naval bases abroad, we have very little to support long-range voyages and fleet operations, while the US and NATO have dozens of them and more.
          1. +1
            9 January 2022 13: 59
            You may not need it, but my country needs it and not just needs it, but is necessary for its survival. And leave this idiotic habit of counting other people's money, it will not lead you to good.
            1. 0
              9 January 2022 14: 26
              Our country does not need ships to survive, but a developed economy with an increase of 10 to 15% per year, modern infrastructure, social sustainability of society and a modern army that can ensure the country's security without sacrificing the economy.
              1. +1
                11 January 2022 16: 30
                Such growth is only in young economies, as the USSR and China once had, the mature ones have less interest, but there may be more in pieces.
              2. 0
                13 February 2022 13: 51
                golden words
            2. -1
              27 March 2022 18: 59
              Calculating and correctly, practically, and optimally allocating a limited defense resource is very important for the country's survival. And shove 100500 Ash trees in your *op! Another Rogozin was found))
        2. -2
          9 January 2022 13: 13
          You have no expiration date)
        3. 0
          10 January 2022 11: 30
          To what figure will the retirement age need to be raised?

          At least you weren't lazy to turn over the page in the manual and select the next "argument"
        4. 0
          16 January 2022 03: 35
          To no end! The main thing is that Russia survives Israel!
      2. -3
        7 January 2022 09: 23
        Quote: jonht
        But what exactly interferes is the lack of a concept for the development and use of the fleet.

        The concept is there. See what's being built. And Borei and special-purpose nuclear submarines are under construction for Poseidons. And also rocket gunboats for Caliber. Our fleet is being built for nuclear deterrence. And only for him.
        By the way, it follows from this that in a collision with a strong enemy fleet, the Russian authorities SHOULD plan to use nuclear weapons by us.
      3. -1
        7 January 2022 16: 51
        They have minded you, comrade, and they will minus me, because I support you. Well, okay, to your health) In general, these vsepropalschiki got it. Yes, there are problems, yes, there are questions, but ... Honestly, I am enraged by articles from the series "We are all bad, we will die soon." It's like saying "A" and not saying "B". I remember that one wise leader once said: "You criticize, offer. Offer, do. Do, answer." And in these articles there is continuous criticism without specific proposals (I am already silent about the rest). It's a pity you can put downsides in comments and not on an article - I would gladly put a minus on such articles.
        Happy holidays everyone.
      4. +8
        7 January 2022 18: 44
        Our nuclear submarines are very even at the world level

        In which place? By the ability to interact with target designation sources and obtaining operational conditions in 24/7 mode ???
        With the ability to resist the means of attack of the enemy?
        In the reliability of components and assemblies for the period of military service?
        In digital data processing complexes?
        Where are they the best now?
        1. +1
          7 January 2022 20: 41
          It says "very much even on a world level." There are no better ones. It's sooooo expensive. On the points listed, perhaps we match and go around somewhere. Working depths, maneuvering. Low noise for diesel-electric submarines. What's wrong with the ability to interact with sources? Are you talking about "combat position" and long-wave communications? Or about satellite in hikes? About what exactly? About the means of attack, or rather the defense about them ... Is there any data on the SPTZ? I think this problem is present in all fleets. I've just heard rumors that the "Package" will be unified under the PL (the Package-PL is like that). There is a problem with the placement. But it is better not to indulge in speculation about the unknown.
          1. +3
            7 January 2022 22: 59
            But it is better not to indulge in reasoning about the unknown.

            Right here, yes. Perhaps I agree with you and stop discussing what you have no idea about, except from Wikipedia.

            Working depths

            Just look at the depth ranges of modern foreign torpedoes. And their range.

            1. +2
              8 January 2022 04: 12
              HM. And what about torpedoes? If we are talking about means of destruction, then yes. And if, for example, the threshold and quality of detection, then how much is 500-600 meters better than 300? However, have you finished our conversation? Your right. One option is not to answer questions.
        2. +1
          10 January 2022 11: 29
          In the reliability of components and assemblies for the period of military service?

          And when a nuclear submarine spends 90 days under water during combat service, and sometimes under ice in general, this does not mean high reliability?
          1. -1
            10 January 2022 15: 42
            And when a nuclear submarine spends 90 days during combat service


            Have you been on such trips?
            1. +1
              10 January 2022 15: 45
              Have you been on such trips?

              And they were such trips. And many other different ones, in which they both burned and drowned, everything happened. The fleet has a rich history.
              1. -1
                10 January 2022 16: 10
                I'm asking YOU specifically!
                -YOU WERE?
                1. +1
                  10 January 2022 22: 43
                  Yes, I was. I read a lot of reasoning here about how and who will withdraw our nuclear submarines from the base in case of danger, hoping that there is no ASW fleet, but they left always and everywhere, and the less forces involved, the easier it is to leave.
      5. +1
        11 January 2022 22: 29
        The points.
        1. There is money and it is allocated regularly.


        Moreover, in quantities sufficient for 1-2 places. But with such results.

        2. At the moment, there are at least 4 shipbuilding points: in the Baltic (Admiralteyskie and Yantar), in the North (Sevmash), on Tikhiy (Zvezda and Amurskiy), on the Black (Zaliv).


        Have you tried to analyze the results of their work?

        3. Our nuclear submarines are very even at the world level.


        No. Our nuclear submarines are perfectly described by the rhyme about "because there was no nail in the forge."

        Although the latest statements by Shoigu on this topic were encouraging.


        How did they give you hope?
        1. +1
          11 January 2022 23: 24
          My answer was to a comment, which said that we have no money, but still you agree that they are and stand out. The next point, there is no industrial base, then who builds our ships? And, probably China. The speed of construction was not considered, if there is no "industrial base" then it turns out to be built not where, or is there anyway?
          As for the Premier League, are there only problems with ours? The British have no problem? Are the Chinese better than ours? And probably the French have solved all the problems .... It is as if the nails were not delivered.
          And Shoigu reassured that he closed the issue with the rushes of the naval leadership from pr. 20380 to pr. 20386. And they will build for the Navy at least something already worked out, but do not understand what. And if you change something, then definitely the leadership of our Navy. To train a welder on new training equipment, by the way, even in Kamchatka we have this, it is possible in six months, the plant should be built for at least 3 years.
          And I did not touch on the issue of quality in my answer, you will write an article with us, I will read it with satisfaction. hi
    2. +10
      7 January 2022 07: 18
      The economy, first of all, is not able to, the economy. The industry can be tightened up. Stealing, braking, but you can. And to acquire technologies (according to the same scheme). Superdocks that are built in the Far East may appear in the North. A question of personnel? The same profitable business, albeit not one year, but 10-15 years. This is exactly the period of the complete "aging" of the entire Soviet legacy, and the beginning of the "departure" of the new ship crew. But the economy ... If we keep military spending at the level of 20, well, even 25% of the budget (this is still more than the recommended 3% of GDP), then it is not realistic to maintain a Navy comparable to that of the USSR. In addition, the requirements for the provision of employees have grown. It means that it is necessary to "shrink" and draw the fleet within the framework of the possibilities, and therefore the concept and doctrine must be appropriate. Yes, now it's easier and there are no "republican trailers". But instead of them there is a "distribution of profits" in private palms, the same is not less. But this is how the created system and revolutionary transformations function, for the sake of strengthening the military-industrial complex and the Armed Forces, this is not particularly correct. Plus, it is still necessary to improve education and pensions and health care. Tighten up again. The next post is correct. Evgeny has correctly placed the "priority" points in the organization of the ship and service component. within reasonable limits there is where and on what. 22350M as a base? Why not? Near fleet on corvettes? Wonderful. The basis of the striking power is underwater? Very correct.
      1. +6
        7 January 2022 08: 08
        Quote: sleeve
        The economy, first of all, is not able to, the economy.

        Stop referencing economics? It is growing steadily by 1% per year. lol
        The system of professional training was successfully destroyed ... Moreover, even specialists in narrow-profile workers cannot find work at their place of residence, and where there are jobs, there may be no housing, the social sphere (some young people, imagine, have families ) or the salary is unreasonably low. Many technologies and tools are not available to our businesses. And the ship itself is not only the hull, but also the inner filling.
        Quote: sleeve
        The industry can be tightened up. Stealing, braking, but you can.

        In countries with strong legislation and real (and not "bullshit") justice, stealing and slowing down, you can lose everything, including (even) your head. Industry can only be brought up when the enterprises are headed by people of action, not words and chatter. And it turns out, like M.M. Zhvanetsky:
        1. +9
          7 January 2022 08: 54
          And where is my checker? But I don’t have checkers ... Therefore, I will not be able to strike with a word so violently and in a revolutionary and accusatory manner. But let's get back to your comment anyway. Has the system been successfully destroyed? Right. I support you. So you need to restore it. This roughly looks like this in numbers: 3 years of vocational training in the specialty, plus gain experience in five years, then "self-developing professional unit." As a result, if we start from 2023, then by 2030 we will start receiving. And now the question is who and how much? Answer: in the presence of project monitoring (arithmetic mean calculations for the complexity of projects, well, let's say 22350M), we will see the required level of "specialization content" for participating enterprises. That's not for long. Well, let it be a week for calculations. Further, we continue to build very slowly, increasing this very "personnel potential" and by 2030 we get the opportunity (only technical!) To "cut" 4 buildings in three years, because in ALL industries we have fulfilled a TARGET personnel order of thousands for twenty new specialists. Moreover, those who have gone through the full cycle with 8 years of training (yes, 6 and 7 are also possible) will easily provide productivity with a coefficient of 0,9 for those who have “internships” of 2-3-4 years, that is, the growth of competence will accelerate. You will tell me this yourself if you dealt with production. And this happened in all the chains of project implementation. Now let's estimate the "shanezhki" that guarantee the availability of such specialists. Education for "free" with a targeted "subsidy loan" from the state. We bang at once a million so three (a million a year). It will "hang" on the specialist to justify the 10 year contract. In reality, it will "leave" six hundred thousand in three years. Then work at the plant and the state, according to this principle, immediately issues social hiring for 24 squares per person (family first of all!) - well, like the same 300 thousand per year for, say, five of these years. This is 1,5 million costs per specialist. There is no way to "jump off". 3 million "unredeemed". Based on the capabilities of the plant, it would not be sickly to provide a salary, of course, but according to the situation. "Free" housing is already great, it will already attract if you do not need to subtract 50000 from 25, and if from 30 then even more so)). And then immediately n-n-on a mortgage without interest (for 4 million, the same 6 million overpayment for 15 years), that is, 400 thousand per year. I terminated the contract after 10 years, I don't owe it for my studies, but also for the hut for you 10 per annum for the remainder. That's all the incentives. The state does not "get" the worker cheaply. But how much will it bring - oh wei! This is frame by frame. Of course, all this, coupled with the costs of the same "social. infrastructure support "will cost a pretty penny. But it is directly within the power of the state, it is very direct. Moreover, it is not a fact that this program cannot be recouped. Reinvention wondered what options "lit up". In a house with 200 apartments, there are 50 apartments for specialists, the rest will pay off the costs, and possibly the mortgage, and a private construction company if it will go to the land for the same 50%. In short, there are options for all the positions you specified. Urgent (in terms of terms of implementation) and affordable. But the economy has no opportunities now. No. Well, estimate for yourself 105 trillion GDP and 3 percent of it (3,1 trillion) and only 1/3 is possible for the fleet, not more, but better and even 1/4. Because there is the Strategic Missile Forces, the Air Force and the Air Defense. And overland components. Well, everything does not come out at once. Since 18 billion for one 22350 (and now all 20) is not 50 frigates, since even the salary in the fleet runs into the figure of 700 billions a year. Our economy is everything ... But it is not enough. But you have to do it. It is necessary to include such targeted programs. Build shipyards and factories.
          1. +7
            7 January 2022 09: 42
            Quote: sleeve
            And where is my checker? But I don’t have checkers ...

            I don’t know why you said this, but the format of the site requires you to do without "foreplay" in your messages. Sometimes explanations of what was said are opened in the search ... Remember?

            Quote: sleeve
            Has the system been successfully destroyed? Right.

            No. I wrote:

            Quote: yuriy55
            Professional training system was successfully destroyed ...

            If we talk about the system of professional education in terms of time, then, believe a practice with a long (more than 20 years) experience of practical work in power grids, training in highly specialized work takes only 3-6 months (up to a year) and this is with study and delivery exams according to the rules of TB, PUE and PPB. True, for the employer there is no "broth" here. In the USSR, there were vocational schools where you could get a vocational education along with a secondary one. Whether it was bad or good the teachers taught, but the cadres decided EVERYTHING! Moreover, after graduation, a whole list of enterprises awaited the graduate ... Whether it is bad or good, but the salary in production started at 90 rubles.
            I will not scour the vacancies, but here:
            https://sankt-peterburg.trud.com/jobs/verf/
            Who there will go to auxiliary workers (bring it, bring it, take it away) for 30 rubles - I don't know. But what qualifications such an auxiliary worker can be, say the accidents at work.
            Our state spreads rot in the NWF huge amounts of money:
            The volume of the National Wealth Fund (NWF) as of December 1, 2021 amounted to RUB 13,886 trillion, or $ 185,2 billion, the Finance Ministry said yesterday.

            What prevents, AT LEAST, TO START changing something? Or do you think that a qualified specialist with a salary of 40-80 thousand will go to a teaching rate of 18-24 thousand? In our country, everything depends on:
            Quote: Jacket in stock
            We have no ideology in our country, it is officially prohibited by the constitution.

            And without it, it is possible to announce programs and plans every six years, and then unsuccessfully implement them, without summing up the results of non-fulfillment and “encouraging” those involved.
            1. +1
              7 January 2022 14: 37
              As I understand it, you did not read my comment further than "publicity"? We got two comments on the same topic. Well, let them be. And about "The system is destroyed, the system of vocational education is destroyed" - that's how I understand it is such a banter, right? Well, like "curtains, no, red curtains"?
              1. +3
                7 January 2022 15: 02
                Quote: sleeve
                As far as I understand, you did not read my comment further "prelude"?

                Do you want the truth? It's hard to read comments with a lot of spelling and stylistic errors, without paragraphs and an epilogue (question at the end, explanation about what was written).
                stop But I read it. What would you like to answer? On the:
                Quote: sleeve
                The history of Russia does not end with us.

                The answer is yes! Yes
                1. +4
                  7 January 2022 15: 46
                  What do you mean, I understand you. I myself suffer sometimes. But when you shake in the minibus from the shift, it’s not up to spelling on the phone. Excuse me: "with -pre-", of course, this does not justify at all. I didn’t see it. And about the epilogue ... Well, if it is a "question at the end", then first about "curtains")) The rest ... I spent so long "ink" in order to describe a situation in which all processes are still reversible. But the main dependence in implementation still rests on the economic basis. There was a comment about this. That is, I describe an algorithm in which the restoration of human resources is possible, explicable and realizable in practice. But about the fundamental possibility of a large-scale deployment of shipbuilding by dozens of hulls, different figures speak. And they object. These figures. It was a sincere impulse to your proposal to stop referring to economics. But in general, your extreme comment is very succinct and I can support you in this desire not to read comments with a mass of spelling, punctuation and other errors related to spelling and semantic construction of sentences, especially if it is related to the operation of technical or socio-economic content in applied, in essence, the text for "general use". Do not read, of course, there is no excuse for such efforts.
                  1. +2
                    7 January 2022 16: 19
                    Quote: sleeve
                    But in general, your extreme comment is very capacious and I can support you in this desire not to read comments with a mass of spelling

                    Yes, come on, you never know? There is a user from the Urals - his fingers are thick: from Bulgaria - he does not have the letter "e" and he does not want to use an online translator.
                    I don't care as long as the comments are interesting. And to rush in terms of answers - you can please in a mess.
                    I am amazed at the people who are still engaged in the search for the remains of the dead and reburial. These are the real patriots of the country.
                    1. 0
                      7 January 2022 17: 07
                      I won't even use the word "agree". True patriots, I can't say anything more about them. I freeze in a grateful bow.
                  2. +1
                    7 January 2022 18: 57
                    But the main dependence in implementation still rests on the economic basis.


                    I wonder how the Soviet government, in the first 30 years of its existence, solved simultaneously the problems of not just specialized education, but also the elimination of total illiteracy, simultaneously riveting aircraft and tanks at full speed.
                    And you, all of a sudden, wrote off everything to some kind of GDP ...
                    What kind of golden economic vein did the Soviet power have in the first 30 years of its existence, which does not exist now? Huh?
                    1. +5
                      7 January 2022 20: 05
                      Well ... Let's start with the fact that not the first 30 years, but a year old since 1932, tanks and planes massively in the thousands began to "rivet". All this "First Vein" - the peasantry rolled up into industrialization, and the Second Vein - the rest of the people. Do you want the same? You know GDP not only tanks, but also butter, bread, pants. But this is now, and then yes, tanks and guns. But there the ideology corresponded with little blood on foreign territory. Are we the same? Or is it "reasonable sufficiency" and baby food with notebooks and aspirin?
          2. -12
            7 January 2022 11: 44
            "Now let's estimate the" shanezhki "guaranteeing the availability of such specialists. Training for a" freebie "with a targeted" subsidy loan "from the state. Contract. "

            Holy simplicity )))
            First, look at universities - there the teaching staff, as one - "foreigners". And seeing a promising student "with a bright head" they immediately begin to process and recruit him, for the purpose of immigration, and they will be trained for a specific Western company. And he will leave.
            If the student has patriotic views, they will try to turn it over, if it does not work out, they will try to complicate his life as much as possible, up to expulsion.
            The country's staff is being cut in the bud, and you still hope for a revival. Look at the Higher School of Economics, and who comes out of there.
            1. +3
              7 January 2022 15: 55
              Are you talking about Moscow? The technical university base is still enough. And the contract training system will make the employee at least unprofitable for "poaching". Moreover, it is not profitable for him himself, which is very powerful. Or, on the contrary, to make oneself profitable for oneself in the performance of contractual obligations. By the way, I meant a link in a vocational school, not a university. The point is not in the system of specialist training. I have already answered the person the same. The essence of the commentary depends on the dependence of the result of the development of the ship component on the economic basis. The algorithm for restoring human resources at the intersection of public investment and pedagogical resources was used by me only as an example of the possibility of restoring and preserving human resources. Not he, in theory, was supposed to attract attention, but the main statement. But he was wrong, it all came down to him. Well, okay, let's discuss technical pedagogy ... if it really goes that way.
              1. -8
                7 January 2022 16: 03
                "The point is not in the system of specialist training"

                Let me explain it to you on my fingers.
                So - as the Chinese experience has shown (building high-tech factories among the uneducated population), for the successful operation of the plant, only 5 highly qualified European engineers are required per 1 uneducated Chinese workers of the plant. But these 000 engineers had to finish their studies themselves, without any purchased exams, term papers and diplomas.
                And everything works for them there in China, with only 5 engineers, and you are telling me about some vocational schools.
                The engineer, and again, only the engineer drives progress. Without Korolev, no PTUs would ever launch a rocket into space.
                1. +2
                  7 January 2022 16: 12
                  Okay, I'll give up again and the engineering segment is needed. And it will be reversed in its renewal now. I’m not saying that a turner with a locksmith alone collects tanks. I don't mean that at all. And on the fingers and on the pictograms it is not necessary to explain. The essence of the "unfolding" discussion is not at all interesting to me in principle, since it proceeds from a different semantic root. But I honestly answer the comments, each time hinting that the specified chain of training a specialist is just a variable opportunity, described in order to show the possibility of renewing a human resource right now. And the point of the basic comment is that the fleet depends on the economy. Well, how would it be. I am happy to talk about options for deploying specialist training systems. Let's start just about this then?
                  1. -3
                    7 January 2022 16: 15
                    "Okay, I'll give up again and the engineering segment is needed."

                    Yes, I am not against what you say, I also support the development of Russian industry with both hands and feet. Russia will not exist without it.
                    1. 0
                      7 January 2022 16: 55
                      And here, by the way, is a task. Arithmetic. With the imputed costs of the fleet in the region of 1,2 trillion. and with the cost of maintaining and supplying the fleet in the region of 900 billion, what and how can you afford, taking into account the cost of projects, the existing construction time and the aging coefficient of freshly built and old ships? Why is there no such article on VO? All some heuristic reasoning.
                      1. 0
                        11 January 2022 16: 12
                        There was an article about the effective spending of funds for the fleet in the military. And what can be built with the money that is allocated now.
                      2. +1
                        11 January 2022 17: 06
                        Yes, and I remembered it myself. I read it and refreshed it. Hastened on emotions.
            2. +1
              7 January 2022 20: 52
              If the student has patriotic views, they will try to turn it over, if it does not work out, they will try to complicate his life as much as possible, up to expulsion.

              If you are talking about technical universities, then I would like to be specific. And then at the level "If someone here and there we sometimes ..." Specifically, I can tell you that there are no such prep at MAI. There are different ones, but there are none.
          3. +4
            7 January 2022 16: 24
            Quote: sleeve
            We bang at once a million so three (a million a year). It will "hang" on the specialist to justify the 10 year contract.
            So who will go into ten-year bondage? Such an employee will not be raised in salary, or even in position, because where will he go? Plus you have to work. And all the benefits - a profession of interest only for this plant and a rented hut. The mortgage is preferential. Mortgages in Moscow are investments. Mortgages in the north are burying funds.
            Conclusion: you won't be able to save money on personnel, save on managers. We have capitalism now: they will pay a lot and for a long time - there will be workers. If they do not, there will be no workers. Will they pay tuition? Those who study will still go to Europe, to the Czech Republic. Tuition there is cheaper than paid tuition in major universities (it used to be, I don’t know now), and the diploma is quoted not only here. There they will remain. But most of them simply will not study, they will go into "business". As a result, the country will not have specialists, even theoretically, because of the hillock, they will have to call if they are pinned down.
            1. -1
              7 January 2022 17: 12
              Nuances can be leveled. And the same salaries are regulated. Besides, you are still somewhat harsh in judgment. The issue of housing is important. And the turnover of housing between specialists, the same can be established. Such a specialist goes to the North for 10-15 years, and to meet him exactly the same (but with experience and worked conscientiously), who sold his apartment and found a place for himself in other places. Well, his apartment, rooms for three by four in Severodvinsk is already in circulation again. Or maybe not. Maybe the freed up money of these specialists will perform a small miracle on the shores of the icy ocean?)) The nuances are leveled.
          4. +1
            7 January 2022 18: 26
            Quote: sleeve
            And where is my checker? But I don’t have checkers ... Therefore, I will not be able to strike with a word so violently and in a revolutionary and accusatory manner. But let's get back to your comment anyway. Has the system been successfully destroyed? Right. I support you. So you need to restore it. This roughly looks like this in numbers: 3 years of vocational training in the specialty, plus gain experience in five years, then "self-developing professional unit." As a result, if we start from 2023, then by 2030 we will start receiving. And now the question is who and how much? Answer: in the presence of project monitoring (arithmetic mean calculations for the complexity of projects, well, let's say 22350M), we will see the required level of "specialization content" for participating enterprises. That's not for long. Well, let it be a week for calculations. Further, we continue to build very slowly, increasing this very "personnel potential" and by 2030 we get the opportunity (only technical!) To "cut" 4 buildings in three years, because in ALL industries we have fulfilled a TARGET personnel order of thousands for twenty new specialists. Moreover, those who have gone through the full cycle with 8 years of training (yes, 6 and 7 are also possible) will easily provide productivity with a coefficient of 0,9 for those who have “internships” of 2-3-4 years, that is, the growth of competence will accelerate. You will tell me this yourself if you dealt with production. And this happened in all the chains of project implementation. Now let's estimate the "shanezhki" that guarantee the availability of such specialists. Education for "free" with a targeted "subsidy loan" from the state. We bang at once a million so three (a million a year). It will "hang" on the specialist to justify the 10 year contract. In reality, it will "leave" six hundred thousand in three years. Then work at the plant and the state, according to this principle, immediately issues social hiring for 24 squares per person (family first of all!) - well, like the same 300 thousand per year for, say, five of these years. This is 1,5 million costs per specialist. There is no way to "jump off". 3 million "unredeemed". Based on the capabilities of the plant, it would not be sickly to provide a salary, of course, but according to the situation. "Free" housing is already great, it will already attract if you do not need to subtract 50000 from 25, and if from 30 then even more so)). And then immediately n-n-on a mortgage without interest (for 4 million, the same 6 million overpayment for 15 years), that is, 400 thousand per year. I terminated the contract after 10 years, I don't owe it for my studies, but also for the hut for you 10 per annum for the remainder. That's all the incentives. The state does not "get" the worker cheaply. But how much will it bring - oh wei! This is frame by frame. Of course, all this, coupled with the costs of the same "social. infrastructure support "will cost a pretty penny. But it is directly within the power of the state, it is very direct. Moreover, it is not a fact that this program cannot be recouped. Reinvention wondered what options "lit up". In a house with 200 apartments, there are 50 apartments for specialists, the rest will pay off the costs, and possibly the mortgage, and a private construction company if it will go to the land for the same 50%. In short, there are options for all the positions you specified. Urgent (in terms of terms of implementation) and affordable. But the economy has no opportunities now. No. Well, estimate for yourself 105 trillion GDP and 3 percent of it (3,1 trillion) and only 1/3 is possible for the fleet, not more, but better and even 1/4. Because there is the Strategic Missile Forces, the Air Force and the Air Defense. And overland components. Well, everything does not come out at once. Since 18 billion for one 22350 (and now all 20) is not 50 frigates, since even the salary in the fleet runs into the figure of 700 billions a year. Our economy is everything ... But it is not enough. But you have to do it. It is necessary to include such targeted programs. Build shipyards and factories.

            There is free accommodation in Vorkuta!
            Does it help?

            10 year bondage? In modern man?
            There are no fools anymore
            1. +1
              7 January 2022 18: 51
              Yes, not in the described "preparation system" is the essence of the commentary. Do you personally agree that the level of the state's economy will determine the possible size and power of the fleet? This is the meaning of the comment. There was ... But for some reason they paid attention to some opus inside him.
          5. +2
            7 January 2022 19: 41
            Forgive me for being straightforward, but 24 sq.m. for housing in one person, this is not housing, but disrespect for oneself to agree to this.
      2. -12
        7 January 2022 11: 34
        "And acquire technologies (according to the same scheme)"

        I beg of you . If Stalin could buy technology in batches and in bulk, then the Russian Federation was selling technologies under the fantastic TABOO (even Opel was not sold). You have to invent everything yourself.
        1. -2
          7 January 2022 11: 42
          You have to invent everything yourself.

          There is China and Europe, just Stalin had money, the financial system is different.
          1. -8
            7 January 2022 11: 54
            "There is China and Europe, just Stalin had money,"

            Holy simplicity . And then Russia has no money ($ 600 billion) in the store.
            China, over the past 18 years, has bought up over $ 400bn worth of industry in Europe. And they don’t sell to Russia in principle - any purchase must be checked by the American regulator, and if he slaughters it (and he slaughters it anyway), then it will never be sold to you. An example with the Mistrals - and the money was, everything had already been paid, but they did not sell it anyway - the Americans did not allow it.
            1. +1
              7 January 2022 12: 09
              Holy simplicity . And then Russia has no money ($ 600 billion) in the store.

              And where will you go about inflation?
              Due to the specific structure of the economy, a significant part of the money supply has never existed in the form of banknotes, only numbers in documents, i.e. did not create inflation, did not affect prices, etc. The USSR was not tied to receiving export earnings to ensure the release of its own money. You quite rightly noted that when there was relatively easy access to technology and low associated costs, the economic growth was simply amazing, but then the development proceeded at a good pace, despite the elimination of the consequences of two world wars and one civil war, the Cold War, etc.
              1. -10
                7 January 2022 12: 14
                "the growth of the economy was just amazing, but then the development proceeded at a good pace,"

                Okay, let's look at Russia's GDP in 1999 - $ 200 billion.
                And for 2014, Russia's GDP is already $ 1600 billion. With an "official" growth of 3-4%)))
                1. 0
                  7 January 2022 12: 22
                  Okay, let's look at Russia's GDP in 1999 - $ 200 billion.

                  What are you going to argue about now? That, restoring half of the country from complete ruin, the Union was able to afford an ocean-going fleet by the 60s and 70s, to have a significant part of the army in a high degree of readiness, plus invest in the ATS countries?
                  1. -11
                    7 January 2022 12: 36
                    "What are you going to argue about now?"

                    That in order for the car to go, it is necessary to remove all obstacles for this - to remove from the parking brake and so on.
                    Erdogan, for example, after the assassination attempt on him, cleared out more than 100 !!! people in the country. Putin, on the other hand, did not touch practically anyone (not counting Siluanov and others).
                    1. +3
                      7 January 2022 14: 54
                      Erdogan, for example, after the assassination attempt

                      An excellent example, do you know that the fall in the Turkish lira exchange rate continues, despite the large injections of foreign exchange reserves and administrative measures to freeze the prices of essential goods?
        2. +1
          7 January 2022 15: 56
          So I'm talking about the same, all by myself. But you can. Up to the "Chinese version", but you can. And this phrase is also devoted to the reversibility of the situation in terms of the components: personnel, technology, production base.
          1. -2
            7 January 2022 19: 08
            Up to the "Chinese version", but you can

            The Chinese version is not possible in the Russian Federation. For there are principles of socialist management, with insignificant elements of capitalism, while there is savage capitalism with elements of feudal law.
            1. 0
              7 January 2022 20: 07
              In the sense it is not possible? I meant technology to steal and "implement". Do not rebuild the economy. I myself don't need the Chinese version for nothing.
              1. +3
                7 January 2022 20: 22
                In the sense it is not possible?

                Actually, it is possible, moreover, the variant is the same "Chinese" as Japanese, German, even Brazilian, in part. The fleet rests against money, the ocean - big money.
                1. 0
                  7 January 2022 20: 25
                  Yes, you can't argue with that. Money, a lot of money and a lot of money are just three things.
                  1. 0
                    7 January 2022 20: 33
                    And there is a nuance, these countries were able to increase the money supply despite the differences in the economy.
                    1. 0
                      7 January 2022 20: 54
                      Explain the meaning of the phrase? If not a pity, of course. You are welcome.
                      1. 0
                        7 January 2022 21: 03
                        Roughly speaking, they made the right pocket owed to the left one. The banking sector is 80-90% state-owned, money for infrastructure projects.
              2. -1
                7 January 2022 22: 42
                technology to steal and "implement".

                Steal, yes. Implement - no. See ABOVE for the reason.
                And why steal there? We have / had our own.
                But they are far from being realized.
    3. -2
      7 January 2022 10: 23
      Our industry is not able to create a powerful world-class fleet.

      In this case, the author writes about the naval strategic nuclear forces - SSBNs and the complex of forces and means that ensure their combat service. True, warm and soft interferes (the military alliance between Russia and Belarus, the CSTO is more likely a confrontation with a new, hybrid threat).
    4. 0
      7 January 2022 11: 37
      Nonsense. If you build in numbers of 22350, the composition of the Fleet will recover. And there is where to build. Here the USC only has to move the booty.
      1. -1
        8 January 2022 14: 18
        The USC will move the booty - it will weld and make the ship's hull, but to fill it, you will need to move the booty and make thousands of subcontractors move, creating all the guts for the ships, one of them stalled - and the ship's delivery time shifted to the right.
    5. IC
      +1
      8 January 2022 18: 21
      It is not correct to compare the Soviet and Russian fleets. This is the diversification of the state and the economy.
      1. -1
        9 January 2022 14: 27
        And the costs have a significant difference for the military-industrial complex.
  2. +12
    7 January 2022 06: 57
    About the purchase of our submarines by India, amused, and with the rest in many respects I agree.
    One BUT.
    We have no ideology in our country, it is officially prohibited by the constitution.
    Those. there is no answer to the question "why".
    Why do we need a fleet, why do we need an army, why do we need industry, and indeed, why is our country in general?
    Those. the navy issue is just a small part of our uncertainty.
    Hence the lack of a naval strategy, and the rest of the mess.
    1. +6
      7 January 2022 08: 11
      Quote: Jacket in stock
      Those. the navy issue is just a small part our uncertainty.

      good Quote of the Day! fellow
    2. -3
      7 January 2022 09: 06
      And what is the connection between ideology and the navy? No, if by ideology we mean the World Revolution, then 20 aircraft carriers and 60 cruisers for them is the very thing, well, half a kilo of bread a day for each. Then yes. And what is not the ideology of the welfare of the state and everyone in it? Let's just say this: the moral component can be declared beautifully and without ideology. And the rest is within the framework of that very well-being. Moreover, unlike the "World revolution" and "Socialism around the world," this "ideology" can be written both in the Criminal Code and in the Labor Code.
      1. +8
        7 January 2022 09: 26
        Quote: sleeve
        And what is the connection between ideology and the navy?

        Indirect but direct.
        the moral component can be perfectly stated without ideology

        No, it can't. For as you yourself correctly wrote, it is just a component, i.e. part of something general.
         And what is not the ideology of the welfare of the state and everyone in it? 

        Great ideology.
        Only bad luck, it is possible only after that very hateful world revolution. For we have capitalism, and this a priori does not imply the well-being of everyone, just the opposite, the well-being of some at the expense of robbing the rest. Both the Labor Code and the Criminal Code will not help in this case, because they are written based on the results of these very revolutions.
        1. +1
          7 January 2022 14: 21
          Blimey! I am really crushed and shaken to the core! Extremely virtuoso. Or not very masterly. Or not masterly at all. Not a desire to pretend to be an "attentive reader" from the word "absolutely" in the same way. In short, let's talk about the "moral component". The 10 commandments perfectly wander between the Bible and the Code of the builder of communism and, by the way, quite successfully form the basis of many (hundreds) of state criminal codes, so we will probably not raise the question of morality, but close it without opening it? Do you have an opinion that you should definitely carry a red flag with you? No problem. Only morality has nothing to do with it, it will be older than all these "ideologies". About the "component". I meant the component of public relations. I beg your pardon, I didn’t mark it exactly. You say capitalism is here? Yes, I would not say that. In a pure, self-regulating form, it is not (the lively democrats did not have time to build it). With such a social trailer and the orientation of state revenues to its maintenance, it is more of a state. Exactly this was socialism, or rather what was built in the USSR. Corporation. And at the stage of 1921-28, it is quite similar to what we have now. Therefore, if you draw me (or describe, or hint that there is someone who will do it) a balanced type of "non-capitalist" economy (that is, without any signs of the type of profit or funding, or capitalization there), then I will honestly delve into it with pleasure study, because I consider it necessary and important in progress. Since capitalism is inevitable, then it is necessary to spend energy not on organizing pogroms and expropriations (that is, revolution), but on leveling the situation in terms of the redistribution of benefits. That is, to participate not in the process a la 1991-99, but 2000-2020. After all, the 90s is the same revolution, it's just that the people were fucked in it, and not vice versa.
        2. 0
          7 January 2022 19: 12
          Quote: sleeve
          And what is the connection between ideology and the navy?

          Indirect but direct.


          Very straightforward! And very mediated!
          No ideology, no concept of development, no doctrine of the Navy.
          1. -2
            9 January 2022 14: 28
            Russia has a naval doctrine - a purely defense one.
            1. 0
              9 January 2022 16: 16
              A)
              You can link to the official Document of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation.
              B)
              Since when has defense doctrine not provided for defense in the DMZ by means of appropriate forces and means?
  3. +2
    7 January 2022 07: 14
    Soon we will be left without parades, there will be enough exhibition models, since they are not only more efficient than foreign counterparts, but also more economical
    1. +4
      7 January 2022 10: 36
      We have such magicians, they can easily turn the price of the layout into the price of the nuclear submarine ...
  4. +5
    7 January 2022 07: 47
    And Germany, which did not sign anything, but which had the Versailles Treaty, built such a submarine fleet that everyone hiccuped for a very long time.

    Germany entered World War II with only 57 submarines, of which only 26 were suitable for operations in the Atlantic.
  5. -5
    7 January 2022 07: 49
    So the Falklands and the Gulf War showed very well what tasks a good navy can accomplish. Up to the destruction of the statehood of a single country.

    I dare to guess. that these events showed that the result of the aggression of a country with more advanced weapons is predictable.
    A different result would be a consequence of the presence of an echeloned air defense system and modern SCRC ...
    The development and improvement of hypersonic weapons can put an end to large aircraft carriers, as some kind of force. A useless pile of iron can be too expensive. And the presence of such weapons has been confirmed in at least four countries (not members of the NATO bloc).
    ==========
    Perhaps it can be assumed that a certain number of ships of rank I (far sea zone) are needed for the Russian fleet. Probably a couple of aircraft carriers (if we're not going to start World War III) will come in handy too. But, you can choose another tactic of naval battles (if we are not going to capture countries that have maritime borders).
    More lamentable is the fact that the construction of warships is stretched out in time in such a way that by the time the flag is raised, the electronics and weapons embedded in it become “yesterday”.
    The state, the country of 12 seas, does not befit to treat the issues of creating and improving the Navy with coolness.
    hi
    1. 0
      7 January 2022 12: 18
      Quote: yuriy55
      A different result would be a consequence of the presence of an echeloned air defense system and modern SCRC ...

      I have every right to know and I want these three analysts to give some arguments and tell what they found so seditious in my message. Only, please, do not turn out like this:

  6. 0
    7 January 2022 08: 12
    Seryozha-Armenians will disperse all the Japanese with his mustache. Everything will be fine at the Pacific Fleet!
  7. -4
    7 January 2022 08: 26
    there is no money, or rather, we give it as a slavish tribute to the Americans according to the budgetary rule, at least a few submarines are being built and a few frigates are being built, but there is no need for a larger ship, The problem is in naval aviation and minesweepers .... about "no fleet" yes no, but who is to blame ?, the admirals are to blame for the sake of their posts who scattered ships across closed waters, where they are not needed and useless, it turns out, as Catherine said, "there are ships but no fleet", ... all ships of the first and second rank must be transferred to the north and Kamchatka, then it will turn out two decent fleets, but you also need to take everything from the Baltic and the submarine, they have nothing to do there
    1. IC
      0
      8 January 2022 18: 26
      Large ships of the KCHF are intended for the Mediterranean Sea. I agree that a large fleet is not needed in closed seas, only for parades.
  8. +9
    7 January 2022 09: 09
    Interesting questions are raised in the article.
    In short - if we need a Fleet, why don't we have one?
    Here, at the VO, we found out a long time ago that we need the Fleet, although we are still confused in the tasks ...
    Yes, we need SSBNs as part of the Strategic Nuclear Forces, we need MPS, NK, and submarines to ensure the deployment of SSBNs. All this is the main task of our Navy.
    What other tasks does our Navy have? For what purposes will those tiny ships, which we have built recently, launch their "Calibers"? It is cheaper to install launchers on the shore than to roll them on the water. For what purposes will "Zircons" go?
    If we dream of "containing" enemy AMGs, then it is much cheaper and faster to build a hundred "naval" Su-34s with anti-ship missiles than to build a bunch of ships that will not even allow the AMG to use weapons at a range.
    In general, there are a lot of questions, but no one even tries to answer them, while we are building only those ships that we can build, and for them we come up with particular tasks, but I don’t know the general concept of building and using the Navy.
    1. -8
      7 January 2022 10: 25
      do we already have an airborne missile defense system for the su-34 so that it can fly at 1 km? Or do we have 000 pilots sitting and waiting? for airplanes, but we need to develop everything together. And yes, you will not believe, but ships are being built
      1. -2
        7 January 2022 19: 00
        For Tu 22M3 there is anti-ship missile X 32 with a range of 1000 kilometers and there is an X 74 on the MiG 31K which can also work on surface targets at a distance of 2000 kilometers over time and for the Su 34 they will do it.
        1. 0
          7 January 2022 19: 06
          a couple of moments with RTOs with UVP 7 years for karakurt 12 for Buyany, during this time 12 ships were delivered for 96 UVP-equivalent for Tu-22m3m is 32-48 aircraft or 96 MiGs with Daggers ... You understand, there are so many boards for these years no one would pass .. I repeat, the problem of our "topvar" experts is "I am a submariner, we need submarines, they will solve all problems, there is nothing to build these cruisers / I served on a cruiser, we need first ranks, they will solve all problems , we do not need an MRA / I am an MRA pilot, we need an MRA, it will solve all the problems, there is nothing to build these ships ".. Everyone is pulling blankets on themselves .. A simple question, well, we would not build Buyans / Karakurt .. How much would it affect the modernization of the Tu-22m3m or the MiG-31K?
          1. +1
            7 January 2022 20: 44
            Quote: Barberry25
            Tu-22m3m

            There are no such aircraft in the RF Armed Forces.
        2. 0
          7 January 2022 20: 41
          Quote: Vadim237
          For Tu 22M3 there is anti-ship missiles X 32 with a range of 1000 kilometers and there is an X 74 on the MiG 31K, which can also work on surface targets at a distance of 2000 kilometers

          Unfortunately, none of this is there.
          There is no required amount of Tu-22m3, there is no Kh-32 with a range of 1000 km for ships, there is no "Dagger" for ships ...
          1. -1
            7 January 2022 21: 04
            those. there are no planes, there are no missiles for them, but you need to expertly declare that "it would be better if they were instead of your RTOs." submarines are steeper and they need more .. you are the main thing to measure further with pipis, do not forget
          2. -3
            8 January 2022 14: 24
            Who said that the X 32 is not released and who said that the Dagger cannot work on surface objects - there are control systems for the same Calibers and Onyxes, and even air defense systems can work on surface objects, the main thing is that there would be external target designation and it is the same over-the-horizon radars type Volna and A 50U as well as the Liana satellite system. And for ground targets, the same Dagger is not significant to use, since the Iskander OTRK is available for this.
      2. +1
        11 January 2022 22: 58
        Do we already have an airborne missile defense system for the Su-34 so that it can fly at 1 km?


        What does 500-600 not suit you? X-61? An airy version of Zircon that can be quickly crafted?

        .Klimov rowing under submarines


        False
        1. -3
          12 January 2022 12: 03
          Well, maybe it is worth reading CAREFULLY about what the conversation was going on? And he was talking about the fact that it was necessary not to build RTOs, but to buy a su-34, only the problem is that when we started to build RTOs we did not have missiles for the su-34 .. and yes, they still don't seem to exist ... but about "you're lying about Klimov" .. so ask him yourself, what should we build planes or submarines)
          1. +1
            12 January 2022 12: 24
            so ask him yourself, what should we build planes or submarines)


            He answered this question more than once - airplanes. Submarines cannot be the backbone of the fleet
            1. -3
              12 January 2022 12: 25
              those. do we need submarines, do we only need planes? or do we need planes to support ASW and submarine operation?
    2. -2
      7 January 2022 19: 36
      What other tasks does our Navy have?


      Yes, it's still elementary.
      1. Yes, the ability to deploy the naval component of the triad. But deploying SSBNs in the required quantity is only half the question.
      (Along the way, by the way, the big question is, how many of these SSBNs do we need in expanded form, if Borey-Bulava is already much loses a bunch of fossil Ohio-Trident 2.

      2. In a threatened period, it is necessary to have at sea at least a deterrent, not to mention offensive, element in the form of capable of resisting the American AUG with its own BMG. And here you can choose whatever "asymmetry" you want, but there should be at least three KPUGs in the Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet.
      3. In addition, there should be KPUGs that will monitor the same US SSBNs on the base and carry out a search, target designation of their IPLNs in opposition to American hunters for our SSBNs.
      4. The ability to create an effective grouping anywhere in the world ocean with any list of tasks, even if of a limited nature.
      Something like this.
      1. +1
        7 January 2022 20: 42
        Quote: Serge-667
        KPUGs that will monitor the same US SSBNs on the database

        Funny ...
        1. 0
          7 January 2022 23: 05
          This is funny now.
          The 5th OpEsk, for example, was created for this in due time. And not only.
  9. +2
    7 January 2022 10: 20
    I recognize Roman by the first paragraph, only water, no analytics
  10. +1
    7 January 2022 10: 31
    If anyone knows, please explain if there is a possibility of maneuvering surface forces along the Northern Sea Route all year round, if there are icebreakers of the "leader" class, for example?
    1. 0
      7 January 2022 11: 55
      Until 2030, there should be 6 nuclear-powered ships, if the Baltzavod does not screw it up. Taimyr and Vaygach will write off. For nuclear icebreakers, this is the second task, which they perfectly perform during the exercises of the Northern Fleet in the Arctic.
    2. 0
      7 January 2022 16: 45
      Quote: seba
      then somebody knows please explain if there is a possibility of maneuvering by surface forces along the Northern Sea Route all year round,

      not only underwater, and in winter icebreakers will not help
      1. 0
        6 May 2023 04: 06
        Maybe! times are different. and not necessarily underwater. the most interesting thing is that you can’t hide under the ice cap - there is a pasture for moose, although we stubbornly do not want to see it (officially)
        and the refutation of your words was proved in the times of the XNUMXth century. when the Yankees AB hid in the Norwegian fjords. I gave you an example a few years ago, if I'm not mistaken. and if I confuse, then I will remind you of the Admiral of the Fleet Kapitanets, the book "The Battle for the World Ocean in the" cold "and future wars." it didn't end well.
    3. 0
      8 January 2022 00: 06
      If anyone knows, please explain if there is a possibility of maneuvering surface forces along the Northern Sea Route all year round, if there are icebreakers of the "leader" class, for example?

      Subject to further warming, a slight increase in the duration of navigation over the seasons is quite possible. But, it's not about the ability to drive ships from KSF to KTOF.
      In ANY case, it will not be a very operative event in terms of speed.
      In addition, any inter-naval transition is a hemorrhoid for people and technology. Necessarily require inter-trip repairs, restocking, etc.
      So this is not an option. It is much easier and more reliable to keep operational formations, formed from the pennants necessary for solving the assigned tasks, in the necessary and important points of the world ocean, on a rotational basis. As most maritime powers do. And the resource is spent on a planned basis and the possibilities in the region (water area, adjacent territories) are more or less at a given level.
  11. +1
    7 January 2022 12: 06
    And the second minus of our time is the real absence of a maritime policy.

    I wrote, I am writing, and I will continue to write.
    The task of the fleet, like any other service of the armed forces, is to fulfill the tasks assigned to it by the political leadership.
    The main task facing the fleet is to ensure the sovereignty of the state. And here there are two subtasks - "burn so that the whole world is in dust" ourselves and provide the maximum price for the enemy's attack. Yes, it will not be possible to prevent an attack, but to complicate it as much as possible.
    Secondary - to complicate the life of the enemy in a conventional war (disruption of traffic - aha, so that we can get it out of the previous one), and cover the sea flank.
    Now expeditionary missions are still emerging, for which our fleet is not ready at all, which Syria has perfectly shown.
    Something like this, the main tasks of the fleet for which it is necessary to sharpen its composition, which is now happening.
    What is most sad - well, we do not have a force in our country, except for the government, which would be interested in the development of the fleet. Unlike other countries, England and the United States. To understand this, look at what we are building at an accelerated pace, with good quality, and most importantly, what is needed. Icebreakers !!! Our business needs them to develop the Arctic, and the land component has returned there.
    1. 0
      8 January 2022 00: 10
      In vain someone minus. Strange affair. When someone writes about real tasks and opportunities, no one immediately likes it)

      zs Except for the "expeditionary component", everything is correct.
      Why the hell do we need an expeditionary force ???
      Are we going to spill someone with the sea? Hawaii decided to invade, or annex South Africa?))

      There are landing troops. Marines and Airborne Forces.
      Well, a couple of UDCs, with a normal wing, like Wasp or America, are possible. But only at KTOF. The North does not need them, at the KChF they are like a cow in a neighbor's front garden. Here is the base, where the thread is in the Pacific-Asian region, full-fledged, we would not interfere. Not some lousy PKZ from Tsushima times with a rocket whaleboat, but a real COMPLETE naval base. With all that it implies and OVROM.
    2. +1
      11 January 2022 22: 59
      Something like this, the main tasks of the fleet for which it is necessary to sharpen its composition, which is now happening.


      This is not happening now, not at all
  12. +5
    7 January 2022 16: 09
    We have really sunk to the point that we are trying to solve our problems in the seas by modernizing forty-year-old Soviet-built ships.
    It would be nice. The bad news is that now we are cutting ships, the analogues of which we cannot build.
    Two dozen submarine cruisers stuffed with cruise missiles with nuclear warheads - this is what will much more effectively make the same United States think that the real threat is located directly at their borders.
    They have over 80 submarine hunters for our SSBNs, I'm not talking about other US Navy PLO forces. Bringing our SSBNs to their border, where not only aviation and the navy will hunt for them, but even stationary means of monitoring the water situation is an excellent gift to the NATO military.
  13. +1
    7 January 2022 18: 16
    This is roughly how the statement of the powers that are steadily building up their nuclear arsenals looked like.

    Novel! Well, yoya! Well, what, again for agitation? Since the late 70s, there has been a steady reduction in nuclear arsenals and their capacities in the world.

    India has focused its efforts on creating a large number of submarines, both of its own production and received, for example, from Russia.


    NEA! For example from France. And this is already underway. Hindus will not change their hand. French boats are more modern, more reliable and more optimized in terms of capabilities.
    1. 0
      7 January 2022 18: 40
      Quote: Serge-667
      French boats are more modern, more reliable and more optimized in terms of capabilities.

      Tell this to the Australians.
      1. +1
        7 January 2022 19: 31
        Don't be confused. The French, unlike the Anglo-Amno-Nicans, simply could not offer nuclear submarines within a reasonable timeframe due to the loading of their shipyards.
        1. -2
          7 January 2022 19: 47
          Quote: Avior
          The French, unlike the Anglo-Amno-Nicans, simply could not offer nuclear submarines within a reasonable timeframe due to the loading of their shipyards.

          Yes?
          https://topwar.ru/187327-foreign-policy-pytaetsja-objasnit-zachem-avstralii-ponadobilis-atomnye-podvodnye-lodki.html
          1. +4
            7 January 2022 19: 59
            You would first read the links you give
            Canberra hoped that the choice of a contractor would guarantee the opening up prospects for access to nuclear technology. And over time, in cooperation with Paris, it will be possible to modernize the fleet by replacing diesel power plants in submarines with nuclear reactors.

            The Australians originally wanted the Premier League, the French could not provide this
            1. -3
              7 January 2022 20: 22
              You would have read the whole article first, but for me it is enough
              The project for the joint construction of 12 Attack class diesel submarines based on the Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A series for the needs of the Australian Navy was initially tested.

              And then already
              over time, in cooperation with Paris, it will be possible to modernize the fleet by replacing diesel power plants in submarines with nuclear reactors.
              request
              Quote: Avior
              simply could not offer nuclear submarines within a reasonable timeframe due to the loading of their shipyards

              And how then
              As a result, the total costs for Canberra threatened to increase from the initial 50 to 90 billion Australian dollars (about 56 billion euros in terms of the current exchange rate). And this is already comparable to the cost of nuclear submarines. And this is supposedly why in Australia they drew attention to the possibility of acquiring just such submarines. The argument, I must say, is very dubious

              This is a word about the beginning of our conversation:
              Quote: Serge-667
              At the end of the 70s, there is a steady reduction in nuclear arsenals and their capacities in the world.
              1. +3
                8 January 2022 01: 13
                If you carefully read the article that you referred to, you would know that I not only read it, but also commented on it.
                hi
                1. -2
                  8 January 2022 01: 16
                  Then all the more strange ...
                  Quote: Avior
                  simply could not offer nuclear submarines within a reasonable timeframe due to the loading of their shipyards

                  recourse
      2. 0
        7 January 2022 21: 49
        Why tell them? The States themselves, with their most advanced technologies, will help them. Of course, Virginia, as a simplified version of SeaWolfe, is BETTER than French nuclear boats.
        1. -2
          7 January 2022 22: 08
          Quote: Serge-667
          Why tell them?

          About the fact that
          Quote: Serge-667
          French boats are more modern, more reliable and more optimized in terms of capabilities.
          1. 0
            7 January 2022 23: 37
            About the fact that
            Quote: Serge-667
            French boats are more modern, more reliable and more optimized in terms of capabilities.


            "India has focused on the creation of a large number of submarines, both its production and received, for example, from Russia.


            Nope! For example from France. And this is already underway. Hindus will not change their hand. French boats are more modern, more reliable and more optimized in terms of capabilities..

            Or are you suggesting that India abandon the contract with France and also buy nuclear submarines together with technologies from the United States?
            Well, I do not mind.
            French nuclear submarines are better than ours, English ones are better than French ones. And the American ones are generally the most modern.
            Although, in terms of the boat Astyut, I would argue. It is, in principle, not worse than the newest American ones.
            1. -2
              8 January 2022 00: 26
              Quote: Serge-667
              for example, from Russia.

              It's all the little things and details! The Australians drove the French, despite your opinion about them (the French). wassat
              Quote: Serge-667
              French nuclear submarines are better than ours, English ones are better than French ones. And the American ones are generally the most modern.

              Kaneshna kaneshna! wassat
              1. 0
                8 January 2022 01: 03
                It's all the little things and details!



                I have no more questions.
                1. -1
                  8 January 2022 01: 14
                  Quote: Serge-667
                  I have no more questions.

                  Tired. Understand...
  14. +2
    7 January 2022 20: 54
    This article is completely flat and has nothing to do with reality. How can a military-political alliance of the two countries be leveled to zero, extolling the fleet, and not realizing that in our case the military doctrine is political and purely defensive. In general, the articles of this author are almost always depressingly primitive and one-sided.
  15. 0
    8 January 2022 13: 53
    Not everything is so gloomy here. We need to decide what we want - we can. The minesweeper, corvette and frigate + submarine of all classes have been mastered in production. Take the experience of sworn non-partners and China: unification and flow-line construction, without different wunderwuffles / unparalleled / corruption, and in a decade it will be possible to argue about the concept of using aircraft carrier groups.
    1. -5
      8 January 2022 14: 29
      In 10 years, there will be massive hypersonic long-range anti-ship missiles and anti-ship MRBMs - and all the AUGs will become ducks for shooting.
      1. 0
        8 January 2022 15: 24
        When all the holes are closed and the pot is full, there will be time to dream at least about the "Death Star" or a site on the Moon.
        1. -3
          9 January 2022 14: 32
          There are already hypersonic anti-ship missiles, and anti-ship MRBMs will also appear in the next 15 years - what's the point in AUG if, with a 99% probability, they will be sent to the bottom or disabled ships at the maximum distance from the enemy's shores.
          1. 0
            9 January 2022 15: 01
            It's a big mistake to make perfect weapons out of rockets. AUG is not a useless target, but long arms from AWACS, air defense, missile defense, electronic warfare, submarines are a balanced group. A rocket is just a weapon that needs to be installed on something, provide air defense (funny RTOs and corvettes), give target designation to the maximum range. So the AUG, coupled with the satellite constellation, is a balanced complex with great capabilities, and the loners and the KUG without aviation cover and other buns, but long-range weapons, God forbid, with a normal satellite constellation still does not look very good. AUG is transforming under new threats and tasks, this is evolution, and it is too early for them to scrap metal. And it is very strange to look at the construction of aircraft carriers by the leading world countries, they probably do not know, we have already sent all the AUG to the bottom, smacking from the pier with a unique weapon.
  16. -1
    8 January 2022 21: 42
    First, it would be necessary to find out the future of the country (according to many forecasts, it is vague), then it will be easier to deal with the fleet and many other things.
  17. +1
    8 January 2022 23: 12
    Let's face it: in reality, Russia has access only to the Arctic Ocean. But the problem is that it is ice-covered, and it is difficult for surface ships to navigate there, and even more so for aircraft carriers there is nothing to do. Baltic Sea, Black Sea, Sea of ​​Japan - traps for the fleet. Kamchatka, with its outlet to the Pacific Ocean, is also not ideal due to its isolation from the "mainland". That is, it turns out that the oceanic fleet of Russia seems to be of no use. On the Baltic Fleet, Black Sea Fleet and Pacific Fleet, it is enough to keep something like MRK, MPK and corvettes, but on the Northern Fleet it is worth reviving all the buried nuclear submarine bases (ensuring their protection), since the closest distance to the United States is across the Pole.
    1. 0
      11 January 2022 16: 36
      Does the Far East live in Kamchatka alone? There, as it were, a seaside and there is where to turn around, and from there a stone's throw, to southeast Asia.
      1. 0
        1 February 2022 08: 45
        Primorye is, consider, the Sea of ​​Japan. It is worth locking up the straits (Korean and La Perouse) - that's all. Sailed. Yes, and this sea is shot along (1000 km) and across (800 km).
  18. 0
    10 January 2022 13: 58
    For Amaterasu! The Japanese will sooner or later gouge the US. This nation does not forgive anything, and remembers everything. For Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the samurai will destroy the United States.
  19. 0
    10 January 2022 22: 51
    Up to the destruction of the statehood of a single country.

    And who had the statehood destroyed: Argentina or Iraq?
  20. 0
    11 January 2022 16: 33
    Just another all-propalschik with his article. As if nothing is being built here at all, or again it is necessary to spend 15-20% of the defense budget in order to satisfy all the wishes of these fugitives?
    1. +2
      11 January 2022 23: 01
      Well, write the truth then, if you can.
  21. -4
    12 January 2022 21: 32
    But the yachts of our billionaires are the largest and most expensive lol And they have homes all over the world. This homeland has two allies, the army and the navy. And their homeland is where their money is. Therefore, the Russian Federation has no money for the fleet. There are many conversations. The corvette was built for 8 years and it burned down ... Kuzya is poor after Syria, it is not known when it will be repaired. What country, such an army and navy. All the rest is empty talk and dreams of super missiles ... It's all sad ... The only thing that pleases me is that Russia was, is and will be. A thousand years has been and will be. It may vary in size, but it will still be. And this is the main point...
  22. 0
    12 January 2022 23: 13
    Ours are apparently trying to take quality. Like zircon, etc. Indeed, there is no single literate view of the fleet. That stories prl aircraft carriers, which are generally not needed now, then super destroyers, 3-4 types of corvettes, MRK, etc. Since there is a different lobby that promotes its own, beneficial to him. You have to shoot for this. Not only are the funds scattered, so the fleet is not getting very strong and, most importantly, time is running out, the enemies are becoming stronger.
    And our infrastructure is really about nothing. And no matter how surprising. Name me a country that would have comparable costs for the maintenance of the country, its security and the level of opposition from almost the entire Western world? Iran, North Korea? the scale there is not the same and close.
    I often hear about how strong the USSR was. so the USSR was forged a little in different conditions, with a different people. I don’t know what should happen in our country for the efficiency of the state to at least double.
    The same Japan has 1 fleet, not 5. The territory is probably 100 or 200 times less than the Russian Federation, the economy is several times larger than the Russian Federation. And they have practically no enemies. There are simply countries that the Japanese themselves want to destroy. And then there are Sony, toshiba, mitsubishi, toyota, honda, subaru, mazda, nissan, isuzu and much more.
  23. 0
    1 February 2022 08: 39
    IMHO, the time of naval battles, when sailboats or battleships converged at the distance of an artillery gun, are in the past. The author is a bad thinker. Times are different. The weapon is different. The goals are different.
  24. 0
    12 March 2022 23: 52
    That's exactly how you thought under the tsar after Tsushima, all the money was thrown into the fleet, and what we saw in World War 1, battleships in the Baltic did not even start motors throughout the war, and now, well, we'll rivet aircraft carriers at the price of a thousand aircraft, zero sense , Syria showed this, a racket will fly in and that’s it, several thousand sailors will go to the bottom at once, but there aren’t thousands of planes, because someone wanted to prove something there in the oceans, it’s better to develop military space, you yourself figure out why a ship to sail somewhere for a week, 20 minutes in space, and a bomb from space shmyak where necessary and that's it, cheap and cheerful.