Military Review

ZIG pistols: quality and quality again

169

M49 pistol, Type 1 (SIG Model P210) (c. 1955). Length 229 mm, barrel length 118 mm. Weight 970 g. Royal Arsenal, Leeds


The fox reproached the lioness for giving birth to only one cub. The lioness replied: "One, but a lion!"
Aesop, translated by M. Gasparov

Weapon and firms. It has long been known that almost all military weapons, including pistols, are nothing more than a compromise, cleverly found by its creator between its quality and ... price. Of course, it should have light weight, ease of use, heat and frost resistance, and accuracy (where without it ?!), but the question of price and quality is always present in any weapon. And just the Swiss pistols of the SIG company - recognized as one of the best among all that there is - the best example of such a compromise. Yes, they are very good. But due to their high price, practically no army for a long time could afford the pleasure of buying them in large enough quantities. Otherwise, it will lead to a serious "hole" in the budget.

True, in 2017, it was the Swiss association Lüke & Ortmeier Gruppe (owned by the German company SIG Sauer) that won the "pistol tender" announced by the Pentagon, in which models from such companies as Glock, FN America and Beretta from the USA participated (in details). The caliber of the pistol was chosen as standard: 9x19 Parabellum, but the pistol itself is made on a modular basis and can be converted to use .357 SIG, .40 S&W or .45 ACP ammunition by replacing the barrel and bolt cover. This pistol: SIG Sauer P320. It is noted that only a few other similar samples can match him in shooting accuracy. By the way, in the previous competition, which was won by the Beretta pistol, the Swiss model R-226 also took part. He easily overcame all the difficulties of the harsh American tests, but at that time he was not accepted into service solely because of its high price. "Beretta" turned out to be cheaper!

ZIG pistols: quality and quality again
SACM pistol model 1935 A with holster. In 1927, the French Ministry of War ordered the use of a new 7,65 mm ammunition called "7,65" to continue the comparative experiments with automatic pistols, begun in 1922. In 1935, a competition was held in which the SACM (Société Alsacienne de Construction Mécanique) presented a pistol using a patent from Charles Gabriel Petter, a former officer of the Foreign Legion, an engineer of Swiss origin, residing in France. He applied for a patent on March 9, 1934, and received it on March 25, 1935 (number 782914). This patent seduced an Experimental Commission, which accepted a pistol presented by SACM, called the Automatic Pistol Model 1935 A (PA35A), into service with the French army. Before the surrender in June 1940, 10 of them were produced. After the war, 700 pistols were produced, and a total of 50 were made before production ceased in the late 400s. Photo by Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be


The same pistol chambered for 7,65x19,5 mm "long" made by MAS (d'Armes de ST Etienne). Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be

It is interesting that the firm "Schweizerische Industrie Gesellschaft" (SIG), which appeared in 1853, began its activity with the release of ... steam locomotives. But very soon she switched to the production of weapons, and a rather primitive one: muzzle-loading rifles for her native Swiss army. But as time went on, production improved, the machine tool park expanded, and now ZIG began to produce Vetterli and Schmidt-Rubin rifles, which turned out to be so perfect and so consistent with the Swiss mentality that they were in service with the Swiss army for more than half a century with practically no changes.


Charles Petter pistol diagram

And currently it still produces army rifles, only now it is the 5,56mm SIG-550 assault rifle in several modifications.

As for the pistols, the company paid attention to them after the end of the Second World War. It seemed that every weapon after her was full and there was no point in getting started with new samples. However, the company's management judged differently. First of all, ZIG bought several patents of Charles Petter, a man of very interesting destiny. In the 20s, he fought as part of the French Foreign Legion in North Africa, was wounded and disabled there. But ... in the end he became a gunsmith and designed the MAS-35 pistol. Well, the ZIG company in 1937 bought his patents in France, and started fine-tuning the sample she liked in order to launch it into production in Switzerland. The fact is that the Swiss army decided to get rid of the old 7,65-mm Luger pistol, which it had been armed with since 1900, and ... to use something new and more modern!

But a new pistol appeared only in 1947 - the 9 mm SIG-SP-47/8 (the last figure indicates the number of cartridges in the store). At the same time, a commercial model was released, called the SIG-P-210. It was put into service two years later ...


Anniversary model of the SIG-P-210 / P49 pistol, dedicated to the 50th anniversary (1949-1999) of this pistol being in service with the Swiss army! Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be


And this is his gift wrap! Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be

Although the pistol turned out to be expensive, it became popular due to its accuracy and high reliability. Moreover, it is still being produced. It was adopted into service in Switzerland and Denmark, there, apparently, they also decided not to reckon with the costs and to act according to our Russian proverb: "expensive, yes cute, cheap - yes rotten!" And, of course, they began to buy it for the special services, albeit in small quantities.


Details of the disassembled P-210. Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be

Interestingly, there are no special innovations in the pistol. So, the locking system of its bolt is similar to that used in "Browning high power" - that is, for the protrusion on the barrel with a figured groove, which entered the profiled cutout on the frame. During the shot, the barrel and the bolt casing retreated, the barrel lowered, from which the barrel and the bolt casing were disengaged. But on the ZIG pistol, the shutter cover moved inside the frame, due to which its stability during recoil was better. Swiss engineers figured out how to mount the barrel in the bolt casing in a new way. And they managed to make it so that it remained parallel to the casing all the time while the bullet was in the bore. This is what provided such an amazing accuracy of shooting from this pistol.


Swiss army pistol model SIG P-210-2 (early 1970s), marked "P" for sale to private individuals. Next to him is a magazine and a cartridge of 9 mm Para

True, the magazine latch of this pistol was located at the base of the handle. This can be called, perhaps, the only noticeable drawback of the R-210 as a combat pistol. The magazine latch, made under the thumb, allows you to remove the magazine with one hand, and bring a new one with the other. The latest pistols have a latch button at the trigger guard.


But this is also a jubilee sample. And it is dedicated to an equally significant event: the 700th anniversary of the Swiss Confederation. Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be

Interestingly, since Swiss laws make it very difficult to sell weapons to other countries in order to enter the global arms market, ZIG had to sign an agreement with JP Sauer & amp; Sohn "(" Sauer and Zone ") in the city of Eckernförde in Germany. After that, the pistols created by ZIG engineers began to be produced at the Sauer plant.


Diagram of the P-210 pistol device. Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be

The result of these joint efforts was the SIG P-220 pistol, which appeared in 1974. This model, like the P-210, was just as effective, but simpler in terms of its production. The figured cutout under the barrel was retained, but the cutouts in the walls of the bolt casing were decided to be removed as technologically complex ones. The ejector window was located on the top of the bolt housing. So now the locking of the barrel began to be carried out using the protrusion of the barrel, which entered the ejector window. It turned out extremely simple and reliable, and it's even surprising that no one thought of this before!


SIG P-220 pistol chambered for 7,65 mm Para cartridges. Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be


SIG P-220 in 9mm Para with a chrome case. Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be

A double-acting trigger was also used on the R-220 pistol. The fuse was placed on the left side of the casing to be conveniently operated with the thumb of the right hand.


SIG P-220 in .45 caliber. Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be

The safety system operates as follows: when firing without a preliminary cocking of the hammer, when the trigger is pressed, the latter cocks the hammer with the help of the trigger. In this case, the fuse acts on the hammer blocker, and the sear comes out of engagement with the trigger. The drummer is released, the hammer turns and hits the drummer. A shot occurs.


SIG P-226. Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be

By pressing the fuse box, the cocked hammer rises, being held by the fuse for the safety cocking protrusion. Thus, a loaded pistol with a cocked trigger can be carried safely. The striker is blocked both before and after setting the safety catch.


Diagram of the SIG P-226 device. Fig. from the book of K. Shant. Weapon. M .: "Omega", 2003. Pp. 135

That is, the pistol can only fire when the trigger is fully pressed. Even with the hammer loaded and cocked, the pistol can be thrown without any consequences. But the first shot can be fired without turning off the external fuses, as when firing from a revolver!


R-226 chambered for .357 in "two-color" version. Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be

The standard version of the R-220 used a 9-mm Parabellum cartridge and a nine-round magazine. But there were options for the following ammunition: 7,65-mm "Parabellum", .38 "Super Auto" cartridge, and even .45 APC, although the production of the 7,65-mm pistol was stopped due to insufficient demand.


P-229 in .40 caliber (.40 Smith & Wesson, 10 × 22 mm Smith and Wesson). Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be

Then, in the mid-70s, ZIG, at the request of the German Federal Police, developed the SIG P-225 pistol, which is smaller than the P-220 in size and has a magazine capacity reduced by one cartridge. Caliber 9 mm, the principle of operation is the same. An internal fuse has also been added, which completely excludes the possibility of an accidental shot when the pistol falls with the trigger cocked. The P-225 was adopted by the Swiss police and a number of police ministries in the German lands. It is also sold abroad, including in the United States.

In 1980, it was decided at ZIG to create a pistol for the American army to replace the M-1911 "Colt". They took the P-225 as a basis and made ... the P-226. Under license, it began to be produced in the USA at the Maremont Corporation factories. But the army abandoned it in favor of the 92-F Beretta. There is not much new in this pistol: 80 percent of the parts and mechanisms of the R-226 are identical to the R-220 and R-225 models. But it has a large magazine capacity, and its latch is located so that it can be used by both the right and left hand. There are two types of stores - for 15 and 20 rounds.


R-230 - based on Walther PP / PPK design, caliber 9mm Browning

Along with these pistols, ZIG also produces the R-230, developed at the same time as the R-220. This small pistol specifically for the police has a free shutter and can use 9mm Short or 7,65mm ACP cartridges. The trigger mechanism is also double-acting, as is the safety device with a blocking drummer. The design here has a smoother shape compared to other pistols, which look rather angular.


R-232 (further modification of the R-230) .38 caliber. Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be


R-239 in .40 caliber with traditional wooden grip plates. Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be

Then the R-228 appeared - again an improved version of the R-225 with a 13-round magazine of its own and the ability to use magazines from the R-226 for 15 and 20 rounds on it. Its design differs from its predecessors, but its internal structure is very similar to them. Many R-228 parts are interchangeable with parts of the R-225 and R-226 pistols.


R-239 of 9 mm caliber in "two-color" version. Note that there are three levers on the left side of the pistol. The first, right above the trigger, is the bolt cover retainer, the second, followed by the fuse "flag". The last lever is shutter delay. Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be

Sent for trials in the United States, the pistol was later adopted by the British special service SAS.


R-245 chambered for .45 caliber cartridges. Photo Alain Daubresse www.littlegun.be

Well, here's what the Americans got in the end: the M17 and M18 Compact pistols. The contract is worth $ 580 million and is concluded for a period until 2027. In accordance with it, the US army will have to receive a downright fantastic number of pistols - 500 units, calculated, apparently, for all occasions and for everyone who can only hang such a pistol. All models will be of a dark sand color (Flat Dark Earth) - this is a trend now, there is no getting around - "black pistols" have already outlived theirs!


The M17 is the new US Army pistol. Caliber 9 mm Para. Shop - 17 rounds. Weight without cartridges 833 g. Overall length - 203 mm, barrel length 119 mm, aiming line length 168 mm, height 140 mm. Photo SIG Sauer GmbH


M18 Compact Photo SIG Sauer GmbH
Author:
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  1. Catfish
    Catfish 11 January 2022 18: 23
    +9
    Sent for trials in the United States, the pistol was later adopted by the British special service SAS.


    In, cool ZIGzags! They did it there, tested it somewhere, and took it here. laughing
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 11 January 2022 19: 32
      +4
      For some reason, ZiG is strongly associated with a children's book. True, I can't remember with which one. Chekists there, CHONovtsy ... Some of the heroes, it seems, had a ZiG. Lucky, probably, the hero ...
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 11 January 2022 19: 42
        +11
        At the time of the ChONovtsev, the ZIG company did not produce pistols, the Sauer & Sohn company produced a model of 1913 and subsequent ones - 1919, 1926.
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 11 January 2022 20: 00
        +11
        Leader, this is "The Old Fortress" (I don't remember the author any more), the main character: Vasily Manzhura had Sauer. The action takes place in Kamenz Podolsk in the GV and after. There is a x / f of the same name.
        1. The leader of the Redskins
          The leader of the Redskins 11 January 2022 21: 16
          +3
          May be. I do not argue. I've also read this book ... God, it's been about forty years ago! ...
        2. alex neym_2
          alex neym_2 11 January 2022 23: 08
          +8
          V. Belyaev "The Old Fortress" Vasil Manzhura fired 8 rounds from a MANNLICHER system pistol (there were also 10 rounds, but this is a rarity, although A. Gaidar also has 12 rounds, but they were not released). Mannlicher - cartridges in the store were loaded using a clip from above.
          1. vladcub
            vladcub 12 January 2022 06: 59
            +1
            I know that Mannlicher was charged with a clip from above.
            Korchagin stole Mannlicher from the Austrian officer.
            Now I remembered: indeed Belyaev, but doubted that the main character was Vasil Manzhura. Most likely Manzhura is his friend
        3. Korsar4
          Korsar4 12 January 2022 04: 22
          +2
          Vladimir Belyaev. I liked the book very much as a child.
        4. ZAV69
          ZAV69 12 January 2022 23: 42
          +1
          Mannlicher was there
      3. Mountain shooter
        Mountain shooter 11 January 2022 22: 56
        +2
        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
        For some reason, ZiG is strongly associated with a children's book. True, I can't remember which one. Chekists there, CHONovtsy ... Some of the heroes, it seems, had a ZiG. Lucky, probably, the hero.

        Story: "March, April ..." Vadim Kozhevnikov.
        1. vladcub
          vladcub 12 January 2022 07: 02
          0
          I haven't read this one, she slipped past me
    2. vladcub
      vladcub 11 January 2022 19: 37
      +6
      Kostya, greetings. I noticed: P230-232, they reminded me of the Sauer P-38 (1938). Remember the imitation: Walter PP?
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 11 January 2022 19: 45
        +8
        Glory, hello. hi
        Sauer P-38, I remember, of course.
        1. vladcub
          vladcub 11 January 2022 20: 56
          +5
          P 230 or 232 seems somewhat old-fashioned in design
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 11 January 2022 21: 04
            +5
            There is a design that never gets old. smile
            1. vladcub
              vladcub 12 January 2022 07: 20
              +2
              Agree that this design is less common
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 12 January 2022 09: 56
                +2
                Like everything talented ... smile request
                1. vladcub
                  vladcub 12 January 2022 20: 59
                  +1
                  You can't buy talent in a store. That the Lord will give
        2. Gunfighter95
          Gunfighter95 11 January 2022 21: 34
          +8
          Sauer P-38

          Sorry! Not P-38, but 38N (from Hahn - trigger), that is, trigger.
          Prior to that, Sauer produced pistols with a percussion trigger.

          Yours faithfully,
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 12 January 2022 09: 52
            +3
            Yura, hello. hi
            That's right, but in some articles it is called P-38, that's what Slava wrote, and I just copied a line from him.
            Here Hahn is clearly visible.

            I just don’t understand, combing to release a pistol with a trigger, making it hidden at the same time? request
            1. Gunfighter95
              Gunfighter95 12 January 2022 12: 44
              +3
              comb to release a pistol with a trigger, making it hidden while doing so?


              In this case, it was supposed to make a pistol for pocket carry.
              Therefore, the trigger was hidden so that it would not cling to clothing when removed from a pocket.
              Is that why they hid it in Browning in 1903, although the pistol was classified as an army one?

              Yours faithfully,
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 12 January 2022 12: 51
                +1
                Well, this is for sure by inertia. smile
    3. Real Pilot
      Real Pilot 17 January 2022 11: 35
      +1
      And we also have them in shooting ranges - you only pay ...
      A couple of years ago I had a chance to shoot from the P-226, it fits nicely in the hand, shoots accurately. Causes respect - quality and reliability are felt.

      But I still love the CZ-75 more, it is closer to me in terms of ergonomics ... And in appearance.

      But I don’t really like the Glock, it has a different handle angle, and the descent is a little strange - if you just take it as usual, it hits a little higher. It takes some getting used to... But the fans say he's cool.

      It's for taste and color. The best weapon is your own, true and familiar. Personally cleaned, oiled and lovingly worn! Trained to automatism. And this can be almost any gun.
      But the opportunity to evaluate the best samples is also very interesting and informative.
  2. Undecim
    Undecim 11 January 2022 18: 33
    +14
    The same pistol chambered for 7,65x19,5 mm "long" by MAS (d'Armes de ST Etienne).

    A very widespread in the literature, but erroneous opinion. This is not "the same gun". The Pistolet automatique modèle 1935A and the Pistolet automatique modèle 1935S are different pistols. The only thing they have in common is the 7.65 × 20mm Long cartridge (also known as the 7.65mm French Longue, 7.65mm MAS, 7.65 × 20mm, 7.65L and .30-18 Auto).
    Modèle 1935A, as written in the article, was designed by Charles Petter, Modèle (Mle.) 1935 S - Manufacturers Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Saint Ètienne. (MAS). Both pistols participated in the 1937 tests of the year, but the French commission d'Experiences Techniques de Versailles preferred the Modèle 1935A, although it quickly became clear that the SACM did not have the necessary power, so the Modèle (Mle.) 1935 S.

    Above - Modèle 1935A, below - Modèle (Mle.) 1935 S. The fact that these pistols are completely different is very easy to verify by disassembling them. There will not be a single interchangeable part.
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 11 January 2022 19: 27
      +4
      "they also accepted Modele (Mile), so as not to start rearmament, they just started producing 2 pistols. And then the roulette wheel: who will get which?
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 11 January 2022 19: 37
        +11
        Before the defeat of France in 1940, only 1935 Modèle (Mle.) 1400 S pistols were produced. During the occupation, they were not produced - the workers managed to hide the equipment.
  3. Undecim
    Undecim 11 January 2022 19: 05
    +11
    It is interesting that the firm "Schweizerische Industrie Gesellschaft" (SIG), which appeared in 1853, began its activity with the release of ... steam locomotives.

    Wagons. The company was called Schweizerische Wagonfabrik. The firm took the name Schweizerische Industrie Gesellschaft (SIG) in 1860, when it began producing Prélaz-Burnand rifles, known as the Infanteriegewehr 1863.
  4. depressant
    depressant 11 January 2022 19: 09
    +8
    I am reading such articles and I understand how much the speed of a bullet is greater than the speed of a flying cast-iron frying pan.
    And what to do, if only it is - a frying pan.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 11 January 2022 19: 24
      +11
      And what to do, if only it is - a frying pan.


      Instructions for use:
      1. depressant
        depressant 11 January 2022 20: 35
        +8
        Instructions for use

        Not that instruction, Kostya! I have a heavy cast iron frying pan. I wanted to throw it away. Thought well and put it at the front door wassat )))
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 11 January 2022 20: 56
          +10
          You are a desperate man, Luda! smile

          You would have something like this - such.
          Sphinx 3000. Swiss quality. good

          1. depressant
            depressant 11 January 2022 21: 07
            +7
            You would have something like this - such.
            Sphinx 3000. Swiss quality

            Oh, I would not refuse, Kostya, oh, I would not refuse! Yes, behold, such a fate, God did not give a horn to a vigorous cow, and did not take care of the absence of wolves.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 12 January 2022 10: 25
              +8
              Yes, no matter how much you feed the wolf, he still wants to eat. laughing
          2. Gunfighter95
            Gunfighter95 12 January 2022 01: 25
            +8
            You would have something like this - such.
            Sphinx 3000. Swiss quality


            Kostya, he's heavy! All steel.
            Weight without cartridges 1,040 kg (Standard), and 0,950 kg (Tactical).
            For a lady, it will still be heavy.
            Like a cast iron skillet ... laughing

            Yours faithfully,
            1. vladcub
              vladcub 12 January 2022 07: 29
              +3
              It's good that not Dizer needles 45
              1. Gunfighter95
                Gunfighter95 12 January 2022 12: 51
                +7
                It's good that not Dizer needles 45

                No, it is only in Hollywood films that a fragile young lady, like Pamela Anderson, can be famously controlled by such a monster, taking it out from under the elastic of a stocking ... laughing
                The basic safety rule when handling the "eagle" is not to drop it on your leg ... it hurts, it hurts a lot, otherwise ... it's checked ... crying

                Yours faithfully,
                1. vladcub
                  vladcub 12 January 2022 13: 22
                  +1
                  It's terrifying to imagine what kind of stockings she has to keep the "eagle" there. Ent not PPK
                  PS. When to expect your new material? Respectfully
                  1. Gunfighter95
                    Gunfighter95 12 January 2022 14: 11
                    +4
                    When to expect your new material?

                    Yes, somehow it's going tight - a lot of distractions.
                    Plus, checking all the facts and documents is not easy to do.
                    I hope I can submit an article for moderation in a week.
                    Yours faithfully,
                    1. vladcub
                      vladcub 12 January 2022 16: 21
                      +3
                      I will wait for your material
            2. Catfish
              Catfish 12 January 2022 09: 54
              +2
              Yura, do not forget that - "There are women in Russian villages!" (C) smile
              1. Gunfighter95
                Gunfighter95 12 January 2022 12: 55
                +2
                "There are women in Russian villages!"

                I agree ... And he will stop the elephant, and he will tear off his trunk ...
                But still something lighter is better. For example P228 or P229.
                As a comrade engaged in practical shooting told me - the main thing is to direct the 228/229 towards the target. He will hit himself.

                Yours faithfully,
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 12 January 2022 13: 23
                  0
                  I have not used these pistols, but, with all due respect to the company, they themselves hit the mark only when they are in the hands of a really master. smile
                  1. Gunfighter95
                    Gunfighter95 12 January 2022 14: 17
                    +3
                    they themselves hit the target only when in the hands of a truly master

                    100%
                    It's easier to get out of these. laughing
                    For example, I do not understand at all how it is possible to shoot from the same Wildey (especially with a barrel of 6 inches or more) and Desert Eagle, let alone hit the target.

                    Yours faithfully,
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 12 January 2022 15: 14
                      +1
                      You can shoot them when there is nothing at hand besides a frying pan, but you really need to. laughing .
                  2. Sharky
                    Sharky 13 January 2022 11: 53
                    +3
                    I have fired a 220mm SIG P-9. Shooting is much more pleasant than from the Caracal, which jumps in the hands due to its low weight. I'm not a professional shooter at all, but it was more comfortable to shoot with the ZIG because of its weight. hi
                2. vladcub
                  vladcub 12 January 2022 16: 38
                  0
                  "practicing shooting", probably 2/3 of us are not "matsali": Glock or ZIG, but given "" the popularity of "Glock" ... If only the material to compare: Glock 19 or 17 with similar models of ZIG
                  1. Gunfighter95
                    Gunfighter95 13 January 2022 00: 59
                    +4
                    According to the same comrade, Glock "eats" all the cartridges. The form of his drummer turned out to be so successful that he "chops" any primer. After the competition, they always fired all the shells from the Glock.
                    ZIG-226 "kicks" least of all, and is good even for a novice shooter.
                    A very accurate pistol.
                    CZ-75 - Popular with shooters. But he often broke small springs.
                    This is the subjective opinion of a person who has fired a lot of this weapon.

                    Yours faithfully,
                    1. vladcub
                      vladcub 13 January 2022 12: 53
                      +2
                      Yuri, THANKS for your answer. He clarifies a lot
              2. Aag
                Aag 13 January 2022 17: 03
                +1
                Quote: Sea Cat
                Yura, do not forget that - "There are women in Russian villages!" (C) smile

                "... villages ..." repeat
            3. Catfish
              Catfish 12 January 2022 10: 27
              +1
              Like a cast iron skillet ...


              But, unlike a frying pan, it allows the client to work at a long distance. smile
              1. Gunfighter95
                Gunfighter95 12 January 2022 13: 16
                +4
                But, unlike a frying pan, it allows the client to work at a long distance


                I agree! In this connection, I recall one incident.
                It was in 1979. I worked part-time as a student in St. Petersburg at the Kalinin plant.
                P / I, on the turntable VOKHR-sheep, armed with revolvers.
                And in one shift of the guard there was such a colorful aunt, weighing one and a half centner. But the most remarkable were her eyes - because of the thick lenses of her glasses, they looked at you in different directions, giving her face a mysteriously sadistic expression.
                In response to my words, that with such vision, she has no use for a weapon - she will still miss, the locals told me one case.
                This lady, once bypassing her deserted possessions (it was a weekend), noticed how someone was throwing a bag over the fence. She yelled loudly, "Stop." But the intruder had the imprudence to ignore her call and tried to climb the fence. Outraged by this impudent disregard of the legal requirement, the Amazon snatched a revolver from the holster and with one shot in the back ...., sorry, the seat of the criminal knocked him to the ground. Legend has it that the target was hit from a distance of almost 100 meters. But, as the head of security told me, from only 51 meters - the data is accurate, since an internal investigation was carried out and a criminal case was opened. So the police expert measured everything exactly with a tape measure. I agree that you will hardly be able to throw a frying pan at such a distance ...

                Yours faithfully,
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 12 January 2022 13: 20
                  +2
                  Guards and watchmen are generally the most terrible beast on earth, especially women. wassat
                  1. Gunfighter95
                    Gunfighter95 12 January 2022 14: 19
                    +2
                    Who is the most important at the plant?
                    That's right - the watchman! If he wants, he will let it go, he will not want to ...

                    Yours faithfully,
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 12 January 2022 15: 17
                      +3
                      The profession feeds man. wink

                      1. Gunfighter95
                        Gunfighter95 12 January 2022 15: 59
                        +1
                        5 points! laughing


                        Yours faithfully,
                      2. Wildcat
                        Wildcat 13 January 2022 19: 30
                        +2
                        hi
                        There are still undeveloped warehouses ... where communism is the right of everyone to someone else's ...
                2. vladcub
                  vladcub 12 January 2022 16: 18
                  +3
                  Yuri, I remembered a real case from childhood. So in the center of the village, the post office, and opposite the store. Some strangers robbed the store. The head of the post office grabbed a revolver and jumped out to the square: “I’ll shoot, but I don’t know how. Calling my friends, she was looking at westerns. Together they fired. Aul residents ran and confused the villains. Brave women were primed with valuable gifts. This was also in the regional newspaper. And the postman details The district authorities took care of the "combat training" of the staff.
                  Then the times were "patriarchal" villains were obedient.
                  And now this will not work
                  1. Gunfighter95
                    Gunfighter95 13 January 2022 01: 12
                    +2
                    In Soviet times, such cases were extremely rare. And the people perceived them differently, not like now.
                    Nowadays, everyone will take out their smartphones and start filming, instead of helping ...

                    Yours faithfully,
                    1. vladcub
                      vladcub 13 January 2022 12: 34
                      +1
                      You're right. Now they strive to shoot on video in order to post for the sake of likes
          3. vladcub
            vladcub 12 January 2022 07: 27
            +2
            Kostya, I would recommend Ludmele Yakovlevna: mGlock 26. Or P232
            1. depressant
              depressant 12 January 2022 10: 30
              +1
              Svyatoslav, I would take everything, but who will give it! Is that a recommendation will be given in an outstretched, thirsty hand wassat )))
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 12 January 2022 11: 25
                +6
                The good old film The Magnificent Seven (1960) had this dialogue:

                "- Will you help us buy weapons?

                “Weapons are difficult to obtain and expensive. And you hire people, people are now much cheaper than weapons. "(C)

                1. depressant
                  depressant 12 January 2022 11: 33
                  +3
                  people are now much cheaper than weapons.

                  And when was it wrong? wassat )))
                  But the mercenary still needs to be paid. Someone can afford it. For example, at government expense. For example, the Russian Guard.
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 12 January 2022 11: 50
                    +2
                    Well, we now have an army, in fact, a hired one. And as for the National Guard, these are typical praetorians, history, as you can see, does not teach anyone anything. request
                    1. depressant
                      depressant 12 January 2022 11: 54
                      0
                      Those who offer more will be protected. Who?
                      1. Catfish
                        Catfish 12 January 2022 12: 02
                        0
                        Who?




                        "This is not even a circus, but a continuous movie" (c) laughing
                      2. depressant
                        depressant 12 January 2022 12: 07
                        +2
                        I would strengthen my question.
                        Why is a disarmed population so important to the government? Why did the laws become such that there is no gathering in threes? Why did the police get the right to open apartments? And for all this, so that the population does not interfere in the struggle of two big uncles for access to the distribution of income from industrial activities - between the Capitalist and the Official.
                      3. vladcub
                        vladcub 12 January 2022 20: 34
                        +3
                        Actually, the possession of weapons in us has been limited since 1961. Until 1905, it was possible to buy a machine gun and any barrel. Then they limited it, but the short-barrel could be bought. Until 1961, hunting rifles were sold in any household store. I heard from my grandfather: his wife left for the eldest daughter, and he sold the piglet and bought a 2-barrel "Izhevka" in the general store.
                      4. letter-to-vovan
                        letter-to-vovan 14 January 2022 12: 42
                        +1
                        here let me answer you with the quote below
                        https://vinauto777.livejournal.com/2016/01/06/
                2. vladcub
                  vladcub 12 January 2022 16: 41
                  +1
                  I remember, I remember this movie
        2. Korsar4
          Korsar4 11 January 2022 21: 36
          +3
          Leaning well? Doesn't it fall?

          Or is it possible, like Aristotle, not to spend too much time sleeping?
          1. depressant
            depressant 11 January 2022 21: 41
            +5
            like Aristotle, do not waste extra time on sleep?

            And who now spends time sleeping at night? For example, the neighbors were producing goods, the water was buzzing all night, coming down through their double sink in the kitchen - it's like taking off a jet plane! And the neighbor behind the wall was fixing the bathroom faucet. So you will sleep here!
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 11 January 2022 21: 49
              +8
              "Shah signed in complete inability
              Here take it and replace it!
              Where to get? We have any second one in Turkmenistan
              Ayatollah and even Khomeini "(c).
              1. depressant
                depressant 11 January 2022 22: 01
                +5
                We have any second one in Turkmenistan
                Ayatollah and even Khomeini

                It's difficult with you, Sergei!
                You about weapons, and you right there about democracy wassat )))
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 12 January 2022 04: 09
                  +3
                  And here one cannot but recall the respected Voloshin:

                  “Civil rights were written by a fist,
                  Sword - state law, gunpowder
                  They were erased and the military regulations created ”(c).

                  And I just admired this particular article.
                  By the way, where did the frying pan come from in the discussion?
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 12 January 2022 09: 18
                    +6
                    By the way, where did the frying pan come from in the discussion?

                    I raised the question.
                    If now there is no longer any right to the sacred inviolability of the home, and according to the law there was no right at all to kill a criminal intruder with a weapon, then all that remains is the right of my adrenaline to deal with a criminal intrusion at least with the help of a heavy cast-iron frying pan.
                    Well, well-trained Asian invaders have just been prepared for us. I see them in abundance on the streets of the village. Young, hefty, well-fed, calmly arrogant. They are waiting for the signal.
                    The pan will be taken away from me, laughing.
                    Feeling of complete, absolute helplessness.
                    I'm not talking about the local punks, pumped up with drugs. And I know why the authorities need it.
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 12 January 2022 09: 31
                      +3
                      Lyudmila Yakovlevna, an extremely difficult question.
                      We do not have exhaustive data: conspiracy or chaos?

                      Is there a fundamentally different picture in Europe?
                      1. Catfish
                        Catfish 12 January 2022 11: 32
                        +2
                        Chaos theory.

                      2. Gunfighter95
                        Gunfighter95 12 January 2022 13: 26
                        +5
                        This chaos theory looks beautiful ... fascinates ... what is its danger.
                        As my late grandfather told me when I was picking apples:
                        "You take an apple with a rotten one. With a rotten apple it is sweeter ..." The philosopher was ...

                        Yours faithfully,
                      3. Catfish
                        Catfish 12 January 2022 13: 35
                        +5
                        On the question of apples. smile

                      4. Gunfighter95
                        Gunfighter95 13 January 2022 00: 45
                        +1
                        On the question of apples

                        Master... drinks you know how to amuse wassat

                        Yours faithfully,
                      5. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 12 January 2022 16: 00
                        +2
                        And also the flap of a swallow's wing and other amazing things.
                      6. Catfish
                        Catfish 12 January 2022 16: 11
                        +4
                        "Every night, regularly,
                        Someone sneakily
                        Walks with fire stairs
                        And a huge hammer.

                        From a bottomless pocket
                        Takes out a handful of nails
                        And straight into the night sky
                        Hammers them, villain.

                        And in the morning, taking pincers,
                        Tears them out, grumbling.
                        Amazing things
                        Occur at night. "(C)))
                      7. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 12 January 2022 19: 33
                        +1
                        “He sews non-holiday things out of light sadness,
                        Some simple, nondescript-looking
                        And it seems that longing is about to sink in my throat,
                        And the hall will clap, and the heart will ache "(s).
                      8. Catfish
                        Catfish 12 January 2022 20: 08
                        +1
                        "To the music of Vivaldi,
                        To the glorious harpsichord ... "(c)
                      9. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 12 January 2022 20: 43
                        +1
                        “The musician played the violin - I am in his eyes
                        looked.
                        Not that I was curious - I was flying across the sky.
                        I'm not exactly bored - I was hoping to understand
                        how these hands are able to make these sounds ”(c).
                      10. Catfish
                        Catfish 12 January 2022 20: 50
                        +2
                        "Mozart plays an old violin,
                        Mozart plays and the violin sings.
                        Mozart does not choose his homeland -
                        just plays all his life.
                        Ah, nothing that is always known
                        our destiny is either gulba or firing ...
                        Do not leave the effort, maestro,
                        do not remove your palms from your forehead. "(c)
                      11. The comment was deleted.
                      12. depressant
                        depressant 12 January 2022 14: 48
                        +5
                        Is there a fundamentally different picture in Europe?

                        Sergey is the same. We need street fighters. Who, upon a signal, will take sides - the Capitalist or the Official. An invisible mortal battle is underway for the right to appropriate a share of the income from production activities. For the first time in the history of Europe. It was won from us by an Official in 1917 - unexpectedly for the winner himself. The official always fulfilled the wishes of the Master, and the Master paid generously. In our case, the People as the Master turned out to be stingy. And then the Official, possessing all the fullness of power, in 91 replaced the Master-People for the Capitalist. But the Capitalist, busy with the period of the initial accumulation of capital, did not turn out to be too generous, does not share with the Official as he would like. And then the deceived People are trying to talk, interfering, wanting a share. Here the people and need to shut up, so as not to climb. For this, criminals and migrant workers are suitable.
                        What she has outlined is a comic strip. For comics give the very essence of the phenomenon wassat )))
            2. kalibr
              12 January 2022 07: 57
              +2
              Quote: depressant
              For example, the neighbors from the top management were producing goods, water was humming all night, coming down through their double sink in the kitchen - it's like taking off a jet plane! And the neighbor behind the wall was fixing the bathroom faucet. So you will sleep here!

              Savages - there are savages! But in Switzerland, the police are called for DRAINING WATER IN THE UNITAZ after 10.00. And men should write while sitting. Standing ... gurgling! Neighbors can call the police ... And a riot penalty!
              1. depressant
                depressant 12 January 2022 09: 03
                +2
                a fine for disturbing public order!

                Come on, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
                People survive as best they can. I didn’t sleep because they disturbed me with their noise (I would like to sleep, I would fall asleep under the roar of cannonade!). It's just that everyone is in an anxious mood, and the circumstances of life ...
                The neighbor worked all night with a wrench in the toilet himself, so as not to call the plumber during the day - covid! Do not leave the toilet, unwashed in the evening - apparently, at night the smell did get out. And the neighbors upstairs are self-employed. The apartment is self-employed. Because there is a powerful rush to small business, renting a separate room in a non-residential complex means showing yourself as an entrepreneur, everyone, starting with bandits, the village administration and the police, will come, rob, trample. At best, everything will end in mental trauma. For example, you also don’t rent an office for your activities. Now everything is heading towards the destruction of not only small, but also medium-sized businesses that are not affiliated with large ones. State capitalism is being built. And why is this so, why is it being built and not only here, but sooner or later - all over the world, I have already decided this question for myself. Now I'm trying to understand when there were first signs - in the era of Napoleon, or when the institution of the presidency arose.
                By the way, an extremely naive article by our esteemed Knell. And extremely naive comments to her. People don't ask the main question - "Why is that?"
                1. kalibr
                  12 January 2022 11: 18
                  0
                  Quote: depressant
                  you also don’t rent an office for your activities.

                  Why do I need an office when I have a desk?
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 12 January 2022 11: 42
                    +2
                    Well, you are too direct about the problem, or you are shirking. After all, I, too, could be indignant and present a complaint to the neighbors, they say, come on, good people, rent a suitable room. But I understand why they don't. And the state understands this very well. Who did not need at least middle-income people. The state, which has already extended its greedy, raking hands to such "underground workers". That week, an article by some State Duma deputy appeared in the central press, saying that not everything is clean with the self-employed, they hide, you know, these scoundrels their immeasurable income from a good state, they say, they should sort it out. I assure you that with time they will sort it out until the complete disappearance of the self-employed - not only as an economic phenomenon, but, most importantly, as a political one.
                    So, not everything is so simple, Vyacheslav Olegovich. Think about it.
                2. Undecim
                  Undecim 12 January 2022 22: 57
                  +1
                  But in Switzerland, the police are called for DRAINING WATER IN THE UNITAZ after 10.00. And men should write while sitting. Standing ... gurgling! Neighbors can call the police ... And a riot penalty!

                  This is at the discretion of the homeowner. But at his "discretion" you can, in principle, put the appropriate device. There will be no penalty, but the "public" may be indignant. In general, in Switzerland, snitching has been elevated to a cult.
                  It's just that everyone is in an anxious mood.

                  This is from unemployment. Eat more chocolate and take bifren.
              2. Gunfighter95
                Gunfighter95 12 January 2022 13: 23
                +3
                And men should write while sitting. Standing ... gurgling!


                Amused ... So you can get to the point of absurdity.
                For example, to oblige all Swiss men to use sound moderators for this purpose.
                lol laughing wassat

                Yours faithfully,
    2. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 11 January 2022 19: 36
      +10
      The story of life.
      A welder comes to work in the brigade with a fresh bruise. And the man is not only hardworking and good, but also quiet! Guys on their hind legs - who dared to offend? !!!
      Now let's go, put everyone on the ears !!!
      The welder resisted for a long time, but then gave up:
      I got up in the morning, going to work, and my wife "saws and saws." That is not that, that is not that, when you go there? When will you decide? ...
      He was silent, silent and only leaving, already at the door quietly asked:
      - Did you say something? ...
      And the faithful, just, was cleaning the frying pan ...
      Well, at least aluminum ... laughing
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 11 January 2022 20: 17
        +7
        "at least aluminum" in the subject
        _ My wife asked me to buy a new frying pan. Now I think: will I have fresh pancakes every day or?
    3. vladcub
      vladcub 11 January 2022 20: 13
      +4
      In close combat and in skillful hands - also a weapon
      1. depressant
        depressant 11 January 2022 20: 39
        +5
        So the instruction is needed: where to beat, how to beat, etc. Considering that the frying pan is at the entrance, and times are difficult these days ...
        But as always wassat )))
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 11 January 2022 21: 49
          +10
          Quote: depressant
          So the instruction is needed: where to beat, how to beat, etc. Considering that the frying pan is at the entrance, and times are difficult these days ...
          But as always wassat )))

          The first "combat" pans were tested by aviation pilots in the First World War. True, for purely protective purposes and cast iron, putting it under the butt. laughing
          1. depressant
            depressant 11 January 2022 22: 04
            +4
            Vladislav, are you serious or are you kidding?)))
            1. CHEREDA73
              CHEREDA73 11 January 2022 23: 13
              +4
              I confirm, this is not a joke!
              The first prototypes of body armor are pans.
            2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 11 January 2022 23: 22
              +4
              Quote: depressant
              Vladislav, are you serious or are you kidding?)))

              I'm not kidding.
              1. depressant
                depressant 11 January 2022 23: 32
                +4
                They suggested an idea. Make armor.
                No. It won't do.
                1. Undecim
                  Undecim 12 January 2022 11: 25
                  +2
                  They suggested an idea. Make armor.

                  Pilots put a frying pan under the ass during the First World War. That is, the first attempts to protect the plane with armor - a frying pan under the seat.
            3. kalibr
              12 January 2022 07: 04
              +2
              Watch the movie "Broken Sky" ....
              1. depressant
                depressant 12 January 2022 11: 28
                +1
                Everyone advises me to read a book or watch a movie. I read only what meets my needs, tastes)))
                And the film ... yes, the film takes a little time. I'll try.
  5. vl903
    vl903 11 January 2022 19: 17
    +3
    I still did not understand what the vaunted quality was and what was the explanation for besides advertising and the desire for money?
    1. depressant
      depressant 11 January 2022 19: 36
      +8
      Well, what was the quality? In particular, in innovation:
      The figured cutout under the barrel was retained, but the cutouts in the walls of the bolt casing were decided to be removed as technologically complex ones. The ejection window was located on the top of the bolt housing. So now the locking of the barrel began to be carried out using the protrusion of the barrel, which entered the ejector window. It turned out extremely simple and reliable, and it's even surprising that no one thought of this before!

      The Zig pistol turned out to be more technologically simple in comparison with other models of the same line, it is safe, the hitting accuracy is very high.
      1. kalibr
        11 January 2022 19: 58
        +11
        This is the first time I've seen a woman understand weapons so well! Taking off my hat!
      2. Gunfighter95
        Gunfighter95 12 January 2022 01: 30
        +9
        Well, what was the quality? In particular, in innovation:


        This solution was an innovation long before the ZIGs.
        Back in 1909, William John Whiting used it in his Webley & Scott Mk1 pistol.

        Yours faithfully,
      3. vl903
        vl903 12 January 2022 10: 42
        +2
        manufacturability - the client does not care.
        good fuse - a serious argument
        accuracy hardly differs dramatically from other pistols with a non-swinging barrel (Luger, K96, etc.)
        on the other hand, there is no smoke without fire, for what are they valued?
    2. kalibr
      11 January 2022 19: 41
      +9
      Quote: vl903
      what was the vaunted quality

      As a manufacturing, accurate fitting of all parts, using not a single, but a double coil springs ... About the design features in the article is written.
      1. vl903
        vl903 12 January 2022 10: 39
        +2
        a double spring, a successful fuse, a thorough check of each product, probably high-quality steel and heat treatment, probably a successful construct - this is of course an argument.
        I wonder if there is any info about the comparative tests of the P226 for accuracy, resource, reliability in difficult conditions, in comparison with the Luger, Colt1911, Mauser K96, etc.
        I wonder if the R226, M17 are really head and shoulders above our pistols?
        1. kalibr
          12 January 2022 11: 15
          +2
          Quote: vl903
          I wonder if there is any info about the comparative tests of the P226 for accuracy, resource, reliability in difficult conditions, in comparison with the Luger, Colt1911, Mauser K96, etc.
          I wonder if the R226, M17 are really head and shoulders above our pistols?

          I could not find it, although I even looked for data on their tests on the website of the US Department of Defense.
          1. Wildcat
            Wildcat 12 January 2022 17: 04
            +2
            hi
            It is very difficult to compare "ours" and "theirs", since there is no data at all on how the tests were carried out, for example, for the PY.

            According to the "folk" tests - in shooting clubs - PYa / Viking, after firing several thousand shots, starts, hmm, to work badly. For some other manufacturers, with a pistol resource of 60-100 thousand shots, there are recommendations that only after "grinding" several thousand shots "the pistol will reveal all the possibilities."

            But is it bad, a resource of several thousand shots? And where in the RF Armed Forces from a pistol and how long can these thousands be shot? Where they are shot, the "servicemen" and the Sieg-Sauers have it.

            Disclaimer: IMHO, I don't like Sieg-Sauer 226, I like ChZ75 and even Glocks are more convenient.
            And IMHO, M17 and M18 are "never" 226.

            My summary: for the price of a conventional pistol that will make 60 thousand shots, you can take 3-4 PYa / Viking, IMHO.
            And IMHO, such a deal is more profitable.

            There is information on the dispute between Glock and Sieg from our beloved GAO (the one who writes about everything, even about nuclear weapons) just on the last pistol competition. Brief conclusion - Sieg was cheaper and technically more interesting.
            Then google translation (no time to hide): "Based on the technical assessment and my benchmarking of the proposal, Sig Sauer's proposal has a slight technical advantage over Glock's proposal, given that their proposal was rated higher in factor 1, Proposal Sample Test - Technical, which is the most important factor that Sig Sauer's offering advantage is increased when licensing rights factor in. [...] Price analysis shows that Sig Sauer's total assessed price is $ 102 less than Glock's total assessed price, making Sig Sauer's proposal as a whole received the most value for the government Sig Sauer's proposal was slightly better technically and clearly outperformed in factors 705 and 394. Since there were so few other discriminators between Page 4 B-5 two proposals in most aspects, the least important factor, price, has become a serious discriminator. As a bonus, there is no correlated superior performance ratio for Glock, compared to Sig Sauer, to maintain payment of this premium. Therefore, I cannot justify paying a price premium of more than 7% for
            Introducing Glock, even as a second award. One (1) Sig Sauer award
            by application number W15QKN-15-R-0002 represents the best value for the government. "
            https://www.gao.gov/assets/b-414401.pdf
  6. vladcub
    vladcub 11 January 2022 19: 41
    +3
    Comrades, I do not quite understand: ZIG and Zaur are partners, or did someone "eat" someone?
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 11 January 2022 19: 48
      +2
      "We got together for love." laughing
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 11 January 2022 21: 18
        +3
        So that is so, but who is who with them?
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 12 January 2022 10: 22
          0
          Who cares? Their goods are of high quality, and the rest is not important. wink
  7. vladcub
    vladcub 11 January 2022 20: 09
    +6
    "They have already outlived their own" it's just the Pentagon has such a quirk. And ZIG do not care what color to paint. Even in pink, for lesbians, "for your money, any whim"
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 11 January 2022 20: 24
      +6
      And ZIG do not care what color to paint


      By itself. wassat

    2. depressant
      depressant 11 January 2022 20: 27
      +2
      No, Svyatoslav, in that photo there is not a pink pistol, but the window lighting is like this wassat )))
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 11 January 2022 20: 49
        +3
        One fig is not black
  8. CHEREDA73
    CHEREDA73 11 January 2022 20: 46
    +6
    In the last article I learned about Spanish pistols, now a Swiss has been added ...
    I am interested in reading about the "shooter", to raise my amateurish level fellow
    1. depressant
      depressant 11 January 2022 21: 02
      +8
      I suppose, Evgeny, you will learn a lot - Vyacheslav Olegovich today threatened, brandishing a firearm, saying, you’ll study all the pistols that exist here! And what is indicative is that the stricter the laws protecting citizens from carrying weapons, the more actively our Author tempts them, as if teasing us wassat )))
      1. CHEREDA73
        CHEREDA73 11 January 2022 21: 23
        +6
        I once mentioned that I did not fire a pistol. So, I cheated! :)
        My father had a starting pistol, so I dabbled in it as a child laughing
        1. CHEREDA73
          CHEREDA73 11 January 2022 22: 36
          +6
          There were two clips: one for the Zhevelo capsule, and the other for the starting cartridge. The initiation took place in different ways. If you equip a cartridge for the starting cartridge with Zhevelo primers, then amazing things happened wassat
          After, for example, four failures on the fifth descent, ALL capsules in the clip worked. Now I understand that it was dangerous ...
      2. CHEREDA73
        CHEREDA73 11 January 2022 22: 30
        +6
        Here, I even found:
      3. Altona
        Altona 12 January 2022 19: 37
        +1
        Quote: depressant
        the stricter the laws protecting citizens from carrying weapons, the more actively our Author tempts them, as if teasing us

        ---------------------------
        Pneumatic KSOI (structurally similar to a weapon product) is not prohibited yet, you can buy and train. Approximate analogs and full replicas are on sale, although they are even lighter than combat prototypes. I have an analogue of M18 (umarex) in my collection, there is a replica of Mauser S96 (umarex), a replica of Nagan (gletcher), a replica of Beretta 84 (umarex).
        1. depressant
          depressant 12 January 2022 22: 21
          +1
          Dear Altona !!! love )))
          If you only knew how glad I am to see you in good health!
          God bless them, with pistols, here you come - it's cool! This is the main thing! love ))))
          1. Altona
            Altona 13 January 2022 11: 37
            +3
            Quote: depressant
            If you only knew how glad I am to see you in good health!

            ---------------------
            Thank you, Lyudmila Yakovlevna, I have no time. And I don't want to discuss the next "geopolitical victories" of geopolitical bankrupts.
  9. vladcub
    vladcub 11 January 2022 21: 15
    +8
    The Americans are not very smart with rearmament: they took the Beretta, and then: "until the giraffe on the seventh day," it came to - this is not needed. As a result: "avaricious pays twice": "Beretta", and now P226.
    As for the quality: Glock is also of high quality, I saw on the net: "Glock 19 sniper pistol" from a hundred meters at the target!
    Naturally, Beretta is offended that she was drowned. All the same, the "fat piece" was
    1. Wildcat
      Wildcat 12 January 2022 17: 21
      +4
      Everyone is offended who was shot.
      The main problem is that what is adopted for service will be sold in other markets like hot cakes. What is not accepted - it will lie on the shelves longer.

      and then: "to the giraffe on the seventh day", it came to - this is not needed
      ... Not such is not needed, but "I want-want something else."
      In terms of reliability, there was no particular trouble, in terms of a resource - I shot a big shot at the "giraffes", additional batches of Beretta were already taken, but new toys have appeared in gun stores over the past 30 years ...

      And there are many "giraffes" there. Some ignored Beretta altogether and used 1911 after arsenal repairs, some took HC YUSP, some continued to use Smith and Wessons.
      And some took with them to Iraq what they wanted from the store, ranging from versions of 1911 from Springfield, ending with Zig from the stores.
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 12 January 2022 18: 18
        +1
        "used 1911" as they say: "an old friend is better than two new ones"
        1. Wildcat
          Wildcat 12 January 2022 18: 41
          +6
          1911 is already a matter of faith for many. And we respect the feelings of believers.
          Somewhere there is a video, but too lazy to look for:
          "1. In the beginning was 1911, and 1911 was the Pistol, and it was good. And the Lord said:" Do not you spoil the construction of my apostle John, for it is good and reliable. For John made 1911, and all his other weapons, according to constructions that I, the Lord, gave him on the mountain. "

          2. "If you begin to spoil it, and attach various nasty devices to it, and desecrate its component parts, then you will surely find malfunctions, and in the heat of battle you will certainly suffer from evil."

          3. And after years, people in their ignorance and arrogance forgot the words of the Lord, and began to spoil 1911. The tribe of competitors began to put the guides of the return springs and lengthened control levers for the slide delay for 1911, and their blacksmiths reduced the tolerances and changed the details at will, because the minds lust overshadowed them.

          4. Their craftsmen fixed all kinds of nasty gadgets for 1911, and changed it, making it impractical to acquire. And then the craftsmen imposed a myriad of levies on the buyers in 1911, and the lowest peasant could no longer buy it. And the damage to parts made it inoperative when the dust of the earth fell on it, and the scoundrels tried to squeeze more cartridges into the stores than the holy number seven, assigned for the forty-fifth caliber.

          5. And so they set the adjustable sights, which is an abomination to the Lord. Because they are fragile and lose alignment when you need an accurate shot. And those who did so, let them be defeated by their enemies in great numbers in the great battle *.

          6. And it so happened that the Lord saw the abominations created by people, and sent, according to his warning, terrible faults on the abomination, and wicked masters, who thought that they could not create evil.

          7. Seeing the malfunctions and human confusion, the lord of the underworld wished to entangle the human race even more with his intrigues, and created pistols from plastic, which in shape and touch were similar to brick. But human eyes were clouded, and they longed for plastic pistols, and acquired them in great numbers.

          8. And being a deceitful spirit, the lord of the underworld created plastic pistols unyielding for earthly craftsmen, and they could not spoil their design, which is why these pistols seemed to be serviceable and reliable.

          9. And Satan also created pistols, in which the trigger and cocked the hammer, and fired a shot that only in the eyes of the blessed one looked safe.

          10. But people in their stupidity did not understand these new pistols, and began to inflict gunshot wounds on themselves from plastic pistols and pistols cocked by the trigger, because handling them required great skill, something people have long lost and forgotten. But people continued to slander about new pistols, and blasphemed the evil forces for accidental shots, even though they themselves were the reason for them.

          11. And when people were completely mired in plastic pistols, the lord of the underworld sent the great Ba-Bahá's calamity to earth, and plastic pistols brought retribution to humanity. And there was a great groan on the earth, and weeping, and gnashing of teeth.

          12. After that, seeing that little by little the eyes of men were cleansed, and the people were ashamed of their sinful deeds, the Lord sent the prophets to earth in the guise of masters, and they listened and listened to the teachings of the prophet, and restored the corrupted 1911 in its true form. And to the amazement of the man, he began to work as the Lord had intended.

          13. And the people drove charlatans and scoundrels from the earth, and joy and peace reigned on it, and the evil spirit that persecuted wives and husbands, John's disciples drove out to the place of eternal damnation **.

          * Some old manuscripts also include the following passage: “And they [these people] reloaded it on cartridges, the caliber of which began with a number less than the Holy Number 4. And therefore the Lord sent great sorrow upon these people when the enemies defeated in battle by these in small numbers, did not fall dead, but continued to cause great evil. "

          ** or Hell "
          1. Wildcat
            Wildcat 12 January 2022 19: 26
            +2
            laughing
            So the video was found, but it's too late to edit the previous post.
            So, let's hear:
            1. vladcub
              vladcub 12 January 2022 20: 20
              +1
              Cool commandment.
              For the sake of truth: M1911 is not suitable for combat - there are not enough cartridges.
              For constant wear - heavy. Keep it only at home as artillery of the RGK
              1. Wildcat
                Wildcat 12 January 2022 21: 13
                +3
                Hmm, well, if you compare with the PM, which cleverly fits into the pocket of jeans, or with the TT, which is longer and lighter, then yes, the first versions of 1911 are not particularly compact.
                Although the same "7, 8 in the barrel" - this is not enough. And in terms of accuracy and stopping action, 1911 at .45 is far ahead.

                Moreover, now there are a lot of versions of 1911 from different manufacturers, compact, subcompact, elongated - any. And Paraordonance makes double-row magazine versions for their pistols - not bad IMHO.
                Examples: https://www.armoury-online.ru/articles/pistols/canada/Para-P/
                https://www.armoury-online.ru/articles/pistols/usa/carryII/

                But my IMHO, the most comfortable for shooting 1911 - full-size with a single-row magazine, like ES Ai Troyan.
                good

                And "for the fight", IMHO, for those people who are supposed to have a pistol, but are not particularly interested, the good-old-light Glock17 is good: if trouble comes, just get it and pull the trigger 17 times, maybe it will help.
                1. vladcub
                  vladcub 14 January 2022 19: 08
                  0
                  I would prefer a Glock-26: I bury it in any pocket
                  1. Wildcat
                    Wildcat 14 January 2022 20: 17
                    +1
                    This depends on the situation.
                    If the "pistol" must be hidden (or the hand is small), then the Glock26 is good. And if the VUS requires / allows open wearing, then Glock17 is good. And the sighting line is bigger, and 7 extra rounds. And in general, all versions of the compact 9 * 19 are "kicking", IMHO.

                    And for the discussion, which is better "11,43 or 9mm": one researcher of this issue in Thailand, with the help of local drinks, simulated a Combat stress reaction (not directly "in the snot", but normal).
                    And here is the result:
                    11,43 - 46%
                    .38 (recognize as 9mm) - 97%.
                    That is, everything is on target, but the spread speaks for itself.
                  2. Alexfly
                    Alexfly 19 January 2022 17: 47
                    0
                    Why would you stick a gun in your pocket? Are you a criminal?
                    1. vladcub
                      vladcub Yesterday, 07: 28
                      0
                      Everyman, but tired of crime. About 40-50 years ago, a chantrap will hear a whistle and tear, and now ...
              2. Alexfly
                Alexfly 14 January 2022 11: 12
                +2
                Take 10 to another stores and you will have more than enough for the battle, but you can’t run to shoot at targets in the shooting range. A heavy pistol has its own charm ..
    2. Svejk
      Svejk 19 January 2022 20: 53
      +1
      Glock is more indestructible than SIG Sauer. My glock is 17 already 5 years old, shot a decent one, for all the time there was not a single problem with it. Never. It is lighter than heavy metal zig sauers, it is more difficult for a beginner to accurately shoot from a glock than from heavy zig sauer models, but if you train, you can also hit very accurately with a glock. The Zig Sauer is more capricious, some parts in it are three times larger in design than in the Glock, cleaning it is more hemorrhoids, etc. Although I shot them, the pistols are good. But I will never buy it for myself, since reliability, in my opinion, is the most important thing in a weapon.
      1. vladcub
        vladcub Yesterday, 07: 36
        +1
        Somewhere there was infa that the 17th would withstand 300 shots.
        "reliability, in my opinion, is the most important thing in a weapon" "- no doubt. Glock's polymer frames confuse me. Steel is more reliable
        1. Svejk
          Svejk Today, 02: 00
          -1
          The frame is strong as a dog :) I don't know what to do with it to make it crack. I heard somewhere that if at a temperature of minus 70 you put a Glock on a concrete floor, the frame may not withstand it. But whether so it was not possible to check up. Plus polymer: less hemorrhoids with care (no need to be afraid of rust) and weight. A pistol for the Austrian army, for special services, special forces, and in the UWB it is worn by every second civilian under a T-shirt at the waist. All these wearing situations - light weight is better than heavy weight. The Glock 17 has a total of 33 parts that it consists of. There is almost nothing to break. The same ridge has more than 150 parts. Everything is ingeniously reliable. Glock is like Mora among knives. Yes, there are Finns more expensive and with show-offs on the handle, and so on and so forth. And constantly for everyday life, most often cheap and reliable Mora hangs on the belt and not some Eräpuu with a handle made of polished deer antler. I have a sidekick, he collects different things, sometimes I like to take a TT in his hands to turn, or to feel some Schmeiser 1911, to shoot. But by and large, a Glock is enough for happiness. I kind of see it that way.
          1. vladcub
            vladcub Today, 07: 32
            0
            Some blogger spoke about microcracks in the network. I didn’t remember who: Vlad Borisych or Semyon?
  10. Gunfighter95
    Gunfighter95 11 January 2022 21: 31
    +11
    Signature under the picture:
    The same pistol chambered for 7,65x19,5 mm "long" by MAS (d'Armes de ST Etienne).


    Do not blame me - but twice by. This is not the same gun.
    MAS 35A (Mle 1935A SACM) and MAС 35S (Mle 1935S) are different pistols.
    And the example shown in the photo is not from Saint-Etienne.
    What does the stamp on the frame say:
    MAC (Manufacture d'Armes de Chatellerault) is a government arsenal in the city of Chatellerault.

    Don't blindly trust the original source!

    Yours faithfully,
    1. kalibr
      12 January 2022 07: 09
      +5
      Quote: Gunfighter95
      Don't blindly trust the original source!

      Yes, Yuri is needed. But the source seems to be solid. And to check every stigma ... Actually, any peer-reviewed publication is so good that someone who knows more can correct it.
      1. Gunfighter95
        Gunfighter95 12 January 2022 13: 55
        +5
        Unfortunately, reliable sources do not always use the services of professionals.
        Save.
        Take the same cinematography. Earlier in any war film there were necessarily military consultants - generals, colonels. And now they often don't exist at all. So we get "bloopers" on the screen.
        Someone does not care, but it annoys me wildly. Any carelessness negates all efforts of the director and artists.
        And the editing of the same books is done by literary editors who do not understand anything about weapons. So we have what we have ...
        Even such venerable shooters as Hogg, Antares, Hertz and others have not only typos, but also obvious punctures ...

        Yours faithfully,
  11. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 11 January 2022 21: 53
    +3
    Very good, thanks to the author!

    It is curious that the native ZIG has 226. the cheeks of the handle are straight, and for both the Americans and M18 and M17 - with a recess for the thumb, for a comfortable grip. The Americans taught the stubborn Swiss at least something. lol
  12. hhurik
    hhurik 11 January 2022 23: 12
    +7
    Chinese "ZIG" chambered for TT 7,62x25
    1. Alexfly
      Alexfly 15 January 2022 16: 07
      0
      And imagine, this Chinese brainchild chews almost all cartridges! Of course, TT is even better in this regard, but there are such gaps .....
      1. hhurik
        hhurik 15 January 2022 18: 40
        0
        It has a huge handle, many can hardly reach the trigger. Well, it’s almost impossible to throw it away with one hand while holding the magazine - you need to grow Paganini’s fingers. The people fabricate narrower homemade handles made of wood, where the front wall is missing.
        1. Alexfly
          Alexfly 16 January 2022 15: 01
          0
          It’s just the same one, I removed the rubber one, it seemed uncomfortable, slippery ... Self-propelled shooting is inconvenient, there’s nothing to say .. 9mm too, by the way ...
  13. Gunfighter95
    Gunfighter95 12 January 2022 01: 18
    +10
    So now the locking of the barrel began to be carried out using the protrusion of the barrel, which entered the ejector window. It turned out extremely simple and reliable, and it's even surprising that no one thought of this before!


    With all due respect to the author, I cannot agree with these.
    Have thought of it. And much earlier.
    It was William John Whiting
    The Webley & Scott Mk1 pistol designed by him had an automatic mechanism based on a short stroke of the barrel, with engagement in the ejection window of the sleeves. 


    Webley & Scott Mk1 N, bolt in rear position


    Webley & Scott Mk1 N, the rectangular protrusion of the barrel is in engagement with the breech casing window


    The rectangular protrusion of the barrel is clearly visible

    Yours faithfully,
    1. kalibr
      12 January 2022 07: 11
      +6
      I haven't read about it, Yuri. Although, of course, I saw the pistol. And thanks for the clarification.
      1. Gunfighter95
        Gunfighter95 12 January 2022 13: 35
        +4
        Alas, modern sources often ignore samples created at the dawn of self-loading pistols ...
        Many forgotten solutions of past years are now taking on a rebirth, but at a higher technological level.

        Yours faithfully,
        1. Altona
          Altona 12 January 2022 19: 43
          +1
          Quote: Gunfighter95
          Alas, modern sources often ignore samples created at the dawn of self-loading pistols ...

          ----------------------------
          The market has settled. Now the creation of new products is sometimes ruled by marketers.
  14. bootlegger
    bootlegger 12 January 2022 07: 26
    +6
    Heavy handguns of some sort.
    And it is not clear why the location of the barrel is so high in the latest models? Everyone is already trying to structurally approach sporting weapons in this matter, and they seem to spit. The moment that bulges up the barrel when fired will not be weak. Restoring the sight will take time. High-speed shooting will not work.
    1. Altona
      Altona 12 January 2022 19: 42
      -1
      Quote: bootlegger
      Heavy handguns of some sort.

      --------------------------------
      No wonder, if the pistol is army, it will usually be heavy. For the police and civilians, weapons are not so heavy, because the goal is not to kill a counterpart, but only to stop them from further actions.
  15. Illanatol
    Illanatol 12 January 2022 09: 49
    +1
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    For some reason, ZiG is strongly associated with a children's book.


    The younger generation probably has associations with the game of S.T.A.L.K.E.R.
    SIG220, rifle SIG550 ... soldier
  16. MauZerR
    MauZerR 12 January 2022 14: 04
    +2
    Quote: vladcub
    It's good that not Dizer needles 45

    Desert Eagle was not available in .45 caliber .357 magnum, .44magnum and .50AE only
  17. depressant
    depressant 12 January 2022 14: 19
    +1
    "... If you wish, you can not cock the trigger, but immediately press the trigger guard, and ...
    - Enough. Tell us in more detail what happens during this?

    Borland tried to press the bail, aiming the muzzle to the side.

    “Goes harder,” he said, and pulled the trigger. “Look, I know all this. Without cocking the trigger, shooting is faster, although accuracy decreases.
    - Right. Imagine that I am your enemy. What will you do if you need to shoot me now?

    The techie looked at Borland with bright eyes, placing both hands on the table. The stalker raised his revolver, puzzled.

    “Fear not, it’s not loaded,” the Techie said. - Come on. How will you shoot? Will you cock the hammer or not?
    “If I have the opportunity, I’ll cock it imperceptibly,” Borland said, desperately wondering what the catch was.
    - You will not have such an opportunity. I'm in front of you. I am armed and dangerous, but you have the advantage of relative surprise. What will you do?
    - I will shoot without a platoon.
    - Right. Why?
    “Accuracy at that distance doesn't really matter,” Borland began to select his words. - But then I will not waste a split second, during which the situation can turn around.
    - And how can it break?

    Borland pointed the muzzle at the Techie's forehead. His thumb pulled back on the trigger and began to pull it back.
    The techie made a quick movement, removing his head from the trajectory of the shot. Borland recoiled, and his hand, along with the pistol, landed in a firm grip. The Technician's fingers intertwined the revolver, blocking the trigger and then the trigger guard.

    “This is Hollywood,” the Techie said. - The absolute majority of handsome men have grown up on it, who will turn out to be so stupid that they will try to threaten you with a revolver from close range. And they will start to cock the hammer right in front of you. Because it's cool.
    “But it really looks cool,” Borland said, realizing that he was talking some kind of nonsense again. - And it will be easier to shoot at the platoon ...
    - Remember - the hammer is cocked only in a calm atmosphere! When you cocked him, standing in front of the enemy, he perfectly sees how you perform unnecessary manipulations and hold the trigger with your thumb. At the moment of cocking - in those very fractions of a second - the revolver will not fire. It is harder to shoot without a platoon, it is easier at platoon, and between them it is impossible.

    The techy made a quick movement, and Borland, groaning, hit his face on the tabletop - his hand was twisted in the shoulder. The next moment the revolver disappeared from his hands, and a shot rang out over his ear. "(C)

    Sergei Nedorub, "The Mystery of the Poltergeist".

    This is what I actually read wassat )))
  18. CommanderDIVA
    CommanderDIVA 12 January 2022 15: 54
    +1
    M17 is a good pistol, I would compare its performance characteristics with our submarine or "Boa", but I would choose the M18 compact, it weighs only 737 grams, another interesting feature of these pistols, full disassembly is provided only by the gunsmith, the American military cannot do this
  19. Gunfighter95
    Gunfighter95 13 January 2022 00: 36
    +5
    Sorry! Who's talking about what, and the men about women ...
    The complexities of technical translation by Google are visible to the naked eye ...
    With the permission of the author, I will clarify some technical points ...

    A double-acting trigger was also used on the R-220 pistol. The fuse was placed on the left side of the casing to be conveniently operated with the thumb of the right hand.


    There are no controls at all on the casing.
    On the P220, on the left side of the frame, under the thumb is NOT a safety catch, but a safety lever for triggering the trigger from a combat cocking. Those who have not held P220 in their hands (as well as P225, P226, P227, P228, P229, P230, P232, etc.), mistakenly perceive this lever as a fuse. When this lever is pressed, the cocked hammer is turned forward under the action of the mainspring and becomes on the safety cocking. In this position, the pistol can be safely carried with a cartridge in the chamber. To continue shooting, it is enough to pull the trigger to failure - the hammer is cocked and then hits the drummer - a shot!

    The safety system operates as follows: when firing without a preliminary cocking of the hammer, when the trigger is pressed, the latter cocks the hammer with the help of the trigger. In this case, the fuse acts on the hammer blocker, and the sear comes out of engagement with the trigger. The drummer is released, the hammer turns and hits the drummer. A shot occurs.


    In fact, everything happens a little differently. It is necessary to separate the wheat from the chaff.
    Yes, when firing without a preliminary cocking of the hammer, when the trigger is pulled, the latter cocks the hammer with the help of the trigger pull. In this case, the trigger rod presses with a protrusion on the lower shoulder of the V-shaped lever swinging on the axis, and he, in turn, presses with the upper shoulder on the spring-loaded blocker of the striker located in the bolt. The striker is released from blocking. No fuse is involved in this. Further pulling the trigger disengages the sear from the trigger. The hammer turns on the axis and hits the drummer. A shot occurs.

    By pressing the fuse box, the cocked hammer rises, being held by the fuse for the safety cocking protrusion. Thus, a loaded pistol with a cocked trigger can be carried safely. The striker is blocked both before and after setting the safety catch.


    No, it’s not true. As I noted above, this is not a safety catch, but a lever to safely release the trigger from a combat cocking. When this lever is pressed, the cocked hammer is turned forward under the action of the mainspring and becomes on the safety cocking. By pressing the lever, the trigger cannot be raised in any way. On the contrary, it is discarded from the cocked position. Yes, a loaded cocked pistol can be carried safely. The striker can only be unlocked by pulling the trigger.

    ZIG, at the request of the German Federal Police, developed the SIG P-225 pistol

    In the German police, he was in service under the symbol P6.

    And two more design features of the P220 and its "congeners" are worth noting.
    1. The frames are made of light alloy with a steel insert inside, on which, in fact, the trigger is assembled.
    2. The shutter casing is steel stapled. In it, the shutter itself is attached to one hairpin.
    Technology, innovative at that time.

    Yours faithfully,
    1. Aag
      Aag 13 January 2022 18: 11
      +1
      hi Thanks! - gorgeous "visualization" of the work of kinematics - everything became clear at once!
  20. Comrade Kim
    Comrade Kim 13 January 2022 02: 15
    +2
    Quote: Gunfighter95
    ZIG-226 "kicks" least of all, and is good even for a novice shooter.

    I agree.
    A very well balanced pistol.
    Makarov simply pulls out his hand.
    75 is also good.
  21. vick vickers
    vick vickers 14 January 2022 15: 49
    +1
    At one time, the SIG P-210 was, without exaggeration, the best pistol - not in terms of magazine capacity, weight and other properties, which improved to the detriment of the rest, but in terms of overall balance and quality of execution - still ... standard pistols of the Armed Forces, which were assembled like a Swiss watch, with the same quality, now, alas ... I will not say anything bad about the Swiss and German assemblies, just not in the subject, but the American division of SIG-ZAUER distinguished itself not in the best way. https://youtu.be/a8cteAAOnUY