Upper stage 14С48 "Perseus": groundwork for the future

235

Rocket "Angara-A5" with the upper stage "Perseus" on the way to the launch pad

On December 27, at the Plesetsk cosmodrome, the next launch of the Angara-A5 heavy launch vehicle took place. On board the rocket were a promising upper stage 14S48 "Perseus" and a weight-and-weight payload simulator. For the heavy "Angara" this flight was already the third, and the "Perseus" product was used for the first time. However, in the future it should take its place in the Russian space program and find wide application.

Modernization issues


The Perseus product is the newest domestic upper stage (RB) designed for use with the Angara launch vehicles. It was developed at RSC Energia on the basis of existing structures and is part of the rather old and successful family of D blocks. The new 14C48 differs from its predecessors in a different composition of components, increased characteristics, etc.



From the point of view of design, Perseus is a deep modernization of the previous RB type 11S861-03 or DM-03. The first version of the Perseus was developed by Energia by order of Roskosmos as part of the development work with the Dvina-DM code. Then it was assumed that the block of a new type would first be used with the Proton-M missiles, and then it would be adapted to the requirements of the promising Angara-A5.

Upper stage 14С48 "Perseus": groundwork for the future

Upper stage 14С49 - modified version of "Perseus"

Later, the plans for the 14C48 project were adjusted. It was decided to abandon compatibility with the Proton launch vehicle in view of their expected decommissioning. Now the Angara-A5 rocket was considered as the main carrier. In this regard, the ROC "Dvina-DM" was closed, and in its place in 2014 a similar work "Perseus-KV" was launched. As far as we know, the ordering party was now the Ministry of Defense.

Design work was completed in the middle of the decade, and in 2017-18. the construction process of the first "Perseus" has started. At this stage, the Krasnoyarsk Machine-Building Plant, the Voronezh Mechanical Plant and a number of other enterprises were involved in the project. In December 2018, Krasmash completed the assembly of the first unit and sent it to RSC Energia.

In 2019-20. the upper stage of the new type passed the necessary ground tests before the future launch. In the near future, the first launch of a new RB with the Angara-A5 heavy missile was expected. The date of such a launch was postponed several times, and as a result it was scheduled for December 2021. Within the framework of the Perseus-KV development project, funds were also prepared for the operation of new equipment at the Plesetsk cosmodrome.


It is noteworthy that RB 14S48 has already become the basis for a new design. On its basis, the 14C49 product is being developed. It will receive a different propulsion system and some instruments, but it will show characteristics at the "Perseus" level. The date of completion of the work and the date of the first start-up have not yet been announced.

Design features


In terms of design, the promising RB 14S48 is similar to the previous products of its family. In fact, it is a propulsion system on which the frame, fuel component tanks and control equipment are mounted. Means are also provided for installing the payload and mounting the RB on the LV.

The Perseus uses an 11D58M liquid engine running on kerosene and liquid oxygen. Product 14S49 will use the 11D58MF engine. The engine thrust for 14С48 in the void reaches 8500 kgf, the total operating time is 1200 sec with the possibility of seven-time switching. An increased volume of fuel and oxidizer tanks are located around the engine. "Perseus" carries almost 19 tons of fuel components - many times more than the previous representatives of the "D" line. The own weight of the block is 3240 kg.

The operation of the units is controlled by equipment from the autonomous instrument compartment, built on modern components. This unit is probably borrowed from the previous RB and is also optional. So, on block 11C861-03, the flight control functions, in the absence of an instrument compartment, are transferred to the spacecraft, which is the payload.


The upper stages 11С861-03 and 14С48, as well as the future 14С49 have a number of important technical and operational advantages, and also surpass in their characteristics the previous products of their family. The promising Perseus is compatible with the latest launch vehicle, and also allows loads to be removed with high accuracy and energy efficiency. Products 14C48 and 14C49 are intended for transferring spacecraft from the reference orbit to target near-earth or departure ones.

First start


In recent months, Roskosmos and the Ministry of Defense have been actively preparing for the third test launch of the Angara-A5 rocket, which was also supposed to be the first for the Perseus. The launch was scheduled for the end of December at one of the sites of the Plesetsk cosmodrome.

The launch of the heavy launch vehicle took place on December 27 at 22:00 Moscow time. All prelaunch operations and direct start took place as usual. The flight was carried out under the control of the ground-based automated control complex of the Aerospace Forces and ground-based facilities of the Main Test Space Center. Titov of the Aerospace Forces of the Aerospace Forces.

According to the Ministry of Defense, at the estimated time, the Perseus product with a non-detachable payload mock-up separated from the third stage and proceeded to enter the calculated orbit. According to Roskosmos, the payload was supposed to go into geostationary orbit. For this, it was planned to use a typical nine-hour three-pulse circuit, providing for four turns of the RB engine.


However, the message about reaching the specified orbit has not yet followed. Moreover, the next day after the start on foreign specialized resources appeared news about the problems. According to foreign data, "Perseus" was able to turn on the engines only once and raised the load only to an orbit with an altitude of 176 x 200 km. The three-pulse scheme could not be continued. In the absence of any action, the RB will leave orbit within a few weeks.

Roscosmos did not comment on this news. The press service of the state corporation proposes to clarify the details with the launch customer represented by the Ministry of Defense. However, this department did not specify the state of the upper stage and its model load. Perhaps the situation will be cleared up in the coming days.

Plans for the future


Although official information is not yet available, there is every reason to believe that the first launch of the Perseus was unsuccessful. For unknown reasons, the upper stage could not give the load the necessary impulses and put it into the planned orbit with an altitude of 36 thousand km. Fortunately, the failure of the equipment did not lead to the loss of an expensive and complex spacecraft - a size-weight model of the minimum cost will now leave orbit.


Now specialists from the military and space departments will have to understand this situation, determine the causes of the malfunctions and take action in relation to the following blocks of the new model. What units of the 14C48 product and how will have to be modified is unknown and, probably, such information will not be disclosed. However, as a result of these measures, shortcomings will be corrected, and the reliability of the equipment will increase.

These works are of particular importance for both the Perseus project and the Angara program. Blocks 14С48 and 14С49 are planned to be actively used for a long time, and they must show high reliability. At the same time, the revision should not be lengthy and should not drag out the entire course of the program. So, next year it is planned to launch the second Perseus with a real load in the form of a communications satellite. The block's unpreparedness for this event will negatively affect the related program.

Lucky failure


Enterprises of the Russian rocket and space industry have coped with the task of creating a promising heavy launch vehicle and are successfully conducting flight design tests. Also, the development of a new upper stage for it, which has improved characteristics, has been completed. He also went to flight tests, but the only launch, apparently, was unsuccessful.

However, the work does not stop, and it is quite clear what will happen next. Roscosmos enterprises will find the reasons for the failure and improve the new upper stage, after which it will be able to fully solve its problems. Thus, the recent failure will provide a known benefit and contribute to further success - although for this the developers of "Perseus" will have to put in some effort.
235 comments
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  1. -11
    31 December 2021 06: 16
    Star Wars is postponed.
    1. 0
      4 January 2022 01: 51
      Typical belch of a Zionist scribbler.
      Any successes of Roskosmos (RKK), Rogozin, cause bouts of diarrhea in the Zionists.
      1. 0
        8 January 2022 12: 16
        It's another matter when something explodes at the Americans. There it is, undoubtedly, planned, success.
  2. The comment was deleted.
  3. +8
    31 December 2021 06: 37
    On December 27, at the Plesetsk cosmodrome, the next launch of the Angara-A5 heavy launch vehicle took place.

    Have seen. It is accepted.
    However, the work does not stop, and it is quite clear what will happen next.

    We will always be glad to have good news - it's ours, Russian ...
    1. +21
      31 December 2021 10: 24
      Is "good news" a lucky failure?
      Here the day before yesterday a slipped tried to prove to me that the Perseus, like the entire Angara project, has something to do with the civil vector of Russian cosmonautics (the fact that this Angara launch was carried out by a combat crew of the Space Forces of the Aerospace Forces - this, of course, does not count).
      So, once again I will clarify: "Angara" is a project exclusively for the needs of the RF Ministry of Defense, and it is the Ministry that acts as its customer.
      The failure of the third launch hardly added a good mood to the military. After all, what's the problem?
      It is not enough to shove the RD-191 (a direct descendant of the Soviet line of Glushko RD-170/171 rocket engines) into a cylinder, mold a bunch of sausages from these cylinders and present it as a purely Russian breakthrough in world astronautics (then, by the way, some unpleasant things are discovered. that the power of the RD-191 is not enough in the URM, and the engine must be urgently refined to the version of the RD-191M in order to increase the thrust by at least 10%).
      The military needs the withdrawal of the PN to the GSO of a certain mass. In this case, at least 2,6 tons from Plesetsk on the "Angara". Without RB "Angara" as a carrier is unsuitable for the Ministry of Defense. It was for this purpose that they pored over "Perseus".
      The capacity of the fuel tanks was increased, the pneumatic system of the "DM-03" was changed. As a result, the mass of the fueled booster was brought to a value of 21,97 tons. Now this wealth hangs over our heads in the reference orbit of 179 by 200 km, and we can only guess what will burn out of it and what will fall on our heads when we leave orbit. For already on the second inclusion of the remote control of the Republic of Belarus, a failure occurred.
      Other than that, all is well, lovely marquise. Lucky failure. This is all that Roscosmos can say. It was easy to talk about a three-year trouble-free series, launching devices and products only from the Soviet backlog. Now we have launched our own, Russian one.
      Bottom line ???
      1. +2
        31 December 2021 10: 41
        Quote: Cosm22
        Is "good news" a lucky failure?

        Good news, this is news when something is created out of nothing ... When the citizens of the country see that the prices of food and goods, housing and communal services are decreasing since January 1 ... When the schedules of Covid disease, loan arrears, sentences illegally convicted, and not the terms of the haphazard and modest as a result of being in power.
        And besides the specific issues of Roscosmos, there are hundreds of other industries, small and large, where "good" news resulted in an increase in the state of the oligarchs by one hundred billion dollars ...
        And there is a poem by Mayakovsky: "What is good and what is bad."
        1. +7
          1 January 2022 00: 41
          tell me at least one country kapmira where prices for goods and services are falling))))
          1. AUL
            +2
            1 January 2022 07: 59
            Quote: Yarhann
            tell me at least one country kapmira where prices for goods and services are falling))))

            And you immediately rush there? But I'm not going to blame for the hill, so I am worried about the rise in prices HERE, but I do not care about foreign prices!
            1. -9
              1 January 2022 16: 19
              nagging scoops just got enough already. wanted to live like in Hollywood movies - get everything 100% fulfilled
              1. AUL
                +3
                1 January 2022 22: 26
                Quote: Yarhann
                nagging scoops just got enough already.
                They forgot to add about lace panties! laughing
        2. +1
          6 January 2022 01: 09
          He smiled about the "zeroing" of the schedules of Covid disease, loan arrears, sentences of illegally convicted persons. It is difficult with Covid, nothing will work out until the virus enters United Russia. About loans in general sparkling. Those. Will you take a loan, and your uncle will pay for it? So you can just take money without getting involved with all sorts of nonsense. Just come and take whatever you need. And you don't have to work. What kind of education do you have? It is "illegal" to be convicted by a court ... that's something.
      2. 0
        31 December 2021 11: 00
        Quote: Cosm22
        Other than that, all is well, lovely marquise. Lucky failure.

        Maybe not everything is good, but you want to believe in the good more than in the bad. Or like this:
      3. -7
        31 December 2021 17: 46
        "Is" good news "a lucky failure?"


        I shake hands furiously))))
        What is the essence of the launch? Yes, the fact that the Ministry of Defense will have its own rockets capable of throwing a payload into orbits of 36 km. It is where the GPS satellites fly (and even higher), and if while the first pancake came out lumpy (Perseus), then Angara worked quite normally. So, the Ministry of Defense has every chance to "zero" all military GPS satellites from amers.)))
        1. +10
          1 January 2022 11: 09
          Get fucked up.
          How to "zero"?
          GPS satellites are not in geostationary orbit and would be useless there.
          And the height and inclination are different ...
          An amazing commentary, supposedly neither to the village nor to the city ...
          1. -5
            1 January 2022 11: 42
            Get fucked up.
            How to "zero"?
            GPS satellites are not in geostationary orbit and would be useless there.

            The orbital altitude of the GPS root satellites is 20 km. The rocket was supposed to deliver the cargo to an altitude of 000 km. That is, with such a margin, you can clear the territory of Russia from targeting any satellites.
            1. +5
              1 January 2022 11: 58
              It is quite possible to drown out the GPS. weak signal and no interference immunity
              But why go to the geostationary or 20 thousand for this?
              Don't fucking need it.
              If you really want to have a satellite, it's much easier to transmit from a low orbit.
              But it's easier to do, without any space technology.

              Not from that opera at all
              1. +6
                1 January 2022 12: 05
                It is quite possible to drown out the GPS. weak signal and no interference immunity
                But why go to the geostationary or 20 thousand for this?

                Clearly, you don't know at all.
                The main military GPS satellites fly at an altitude of 20 km, and you will not be able to jam them. From such a height, they can issue target designation to ICBM missiles; to increase target designation accuracy, GPS satellites are used in much lower orbits. But satellites at 000 km are the main "eyes" of the Pentagon. And to remove them from there means to make amers "blind".
                1. +1
                  1 January 2022 12: 16
                  and you cannot drown them out
                  Fuck again
                  Easily
                  A one-watt box jamming GPS for kilometers
                  Satellite is far away, signal is weak
                  Okay, I'm tying it, the discussion with you is pointless
                  1. +1
                    1 January 2022 12: 23
                    " Easy
                    A one-watt box jamming GPS for kilometers "

                    Indeed, why are all these satellites when "a one-watt box jamming GPS for kilometers"? )))
      4. 0
        1 January 2022 17: 08
        While he refused to work. But, it may be possible to persuade him, if he slip something that interests him. But in the future.
      5. +2
        1 January 2022 18: 11
        Quote: Cosm22
        Now this wealth dangles over our heads in a reference orbit of 179 by 200 km, and we can only guess what will burn out of it and what will fall on our heads when we leave orbit.

        Clearly according to the manual, you need to write nonsense with an intelligent face and put pressure on emotions. "will fall on your head from space." It's strange that so much debris flies in space and even doesn't bother anyone, but here it will "fall down".
      6. +1
        8 January 2022 12: 22
        The first launch of the Perseus was unsuccessful.
        The third successive launch of "Angara" was successful.
        The military needs the withdrawal of the PN to the GSO of a certain mass. In this case, at least 2,6 tons from Plesetsk on the "Angara". Without RB "Angara" as a carrier is unsuitable for the Ministry of Defense. It was for this purpose that they pored over "Perseus".

        Oh really!?
    2. +4
      1 January 2022 17: 59
      Congratulations to Plesetsk on a successful launch!
      Happy New Year, I congratulate all Mirninsky! Peace and peaceful space, kindness, warmth, joy and round-the-clock good mood!
  4. +20
    31 December 2021 06: 52
    Of course, you always want "everything at once", but as life shows, any technically perfect and complex systems are "born in pain." And now, the heavy Angara flew, but the link with Perseus did not work. It's okay, it will fly and will fly, completing the assigned tasks and delighting all of us. Happy New Year !
    1. +10
      1 January 2022 04: 45
      And now, the heavy Angara flew, but the link with Perseus did not work. It's okay, it will fly and will fly, completing the assigned tasks

      It is not the problems with Perseus that are straining (tests for that and tests - Musk blew up how many missiles he detonated during tests), but lies and silence.
      The Roscosmos website contains extremely vague formulations and not a word about problems. On the central state media - victorious reports that the model has been launched into orbit.
      When the RB did not work for the Indians in August, this is an unsuccessful launch, in the case of the Angara, the mode "this is different, you do not understand" immediately turns on.
      1. -1
        1 January 2022 11: 23
        On the Roscosmos website - extremely vague wording and not a word
        In this case, it doesn't matter, everything appeared on YouTube at once ...
        Anyway, almost no one reads state propaganda
        And no one really believes, even the so-called. "patriots" in fact

        In general, it's good that the hangara worked fine
        Maybe there will be some sense from this long-term construction
      2. -3
        1 January 2022 18: 13
        Yeah, they forgot to report to you)))
      3. -1
        8 January 2022 12: 23
        What does it matter to you why the failure occurred? Or are you a Perseus constructor and telemetry data is being hidden from you?
        1. +3
          8 January 2022 12: 39
          What does it matter to you why the failure occurred?

          What is the failure, Citizen Chief?
          Watch the first channel - there was no failure.

          “This is a big step in the development of outer space and the increase in the combat power of our state. The start was successful. The personnel showed restraint, patience, courage in the preparation and implementation of this most important task, "- noted the Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Aerospace Forces Sergei Surovikin.

          And don't talk nonsense about failures anymore, we are doing well.
          1. -1
            8 January 2022 12: 41
            Mask's trough exploded, everyone is happy, and it was planned! And then Angara worked regularly, for the third time in a row, but something with an experimental payload, not that ... Everything, a complete failure? What is your interesting logic ... Are you Ukrainian?
            1. +2
              8 January 2022 14: 14
              but something with a payload, experienced, not right ...

              Once again, did you watch the first channel? Nothing happened to the load. NOTHING.
              Successful launch. There is not a word about "something is not right"
              Gratitude, awards, and even vivid impressions, especially from those who participate in the launch for the first time. Like Lieutenant Ivan Chugunov, who just this year graduated from the Mozhaisky Military Space Academy.

              https://www.1tv.ru/news/2021-12-28/418786-sostoyalsya_uspeshnyy_ispytatelnyy_zapusk_tyazheloy_rakety_nositelya_angara_a5_s_noveyshim_razgonnym_blokom

              And who will say that something is wrong with the load - that Ukrainian and the fifth column
            2. -1
              27 January 2022 12: 46
              Falcons mask - the most reliable series of launch vehicles in the history of mankind. And so the fact that he has a different approach and he does not hesitate to broadcast live prototype tests and does not hide problems - he only benefits

              Ours are engaged in hat-taking, and then, as something goes wrong, it’s immediately silent. It was the same with the launch of Science - how the problems began from our silence
    2. -4
      1 January 2022 21: 17
      Orso. In general, what Perseus touched is understandable. Who he touched for the future. That someone was supposed to become a girl from a peasant, but it turned out, when Perseus hurt it, that this is not a woman. So who and what he touched. Has the injury fallen off or a bruise?
  5. +6
    31 December 2021 07: 35
    The backlog is not decreasing. It is growing every year. To the sound of fanfare. Which are also gradually becoming quieter. The worst thing is that the backlog is already included in the development programs and that doesn't matter to everyone! This is already a psychological breakdown. If we compare with "Falcon Heavy" or even more so with "Energia-Buran", then the current attempts - "touched upon" the distant past .... for a distant time, now almost epic, when they knew how to make rockets, but supposedly "did not know how make sausage. " This time I will refuse sausage for the New Year, it looks like she has prices and now the consequences are the same as from the launches of our new missiles ....... well, go to the bathhouse ... in general, we now know how to do cool - just lie about success?
    1. -16
      31 December 2021 07: 47
      Quote: ivan2022
      with "Energia-Buran"

      Is this the one that was sawed for 14 years (1974-1988) and which was abandoned back in the USSR?
      Quote: ivan2022
      and from it now the consequences are the same as from the launches of our new missiles

      As with any positive news.
      1. +11
        31 December 2021 08: 05
        Quote: Dart2027

        Is this the one that was sawed for 14 years (1974-1988) and which was abandoned back in the USSR?

        Heh ... heh ... this is the one that had two successful launches by the end of 1988 and a 100 tonne payload at LEO. And they refused not "in the USSR", but from the USSR itself.
        The problem is that all your "positive news" - smells of rotten stuff from many decades ago. Just like your current sausage.
        By the way, how many years did they "saw" until they sawed the recently burnt corvette "Agile"? A talking name ....
        1. -1
          31 December 2021 08: 25
          Plus, for some reason, it is not put.
          1. +1
            31 December 2021 08: 35
            Quote: Serge-667
            Plus, for some reason, it is not put

            Because someone has already put a minus.
            1. +8
              31 December 2021 08: 44
              By a strange coincidence, this is not the first time I have seen this, you put a plus sign for a person in some off-the-shelf news, and four minuses fly out. I don’t really press buttons at all, I just read. But they could not, at the same time with me four people expressed their will in 10 minutes. Purely mathematically, then there would be at least a four-digit figure in the assessment.
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. +1
                  31 December 2021 17: 58
                  "The administration is fighting 'extremism' as best it can."

                  The site can be DDOS, that is, they can launch attacks by low-level teams, which are difficult to defend against.
                  1. +2
                    31 December 2021 18: 33
                    It, of course, maybe it’s me about + -, but the absolutely complete absence of comments and ratings for the illustration suggests that it’s not about herds from bot farms.
                2. +2
                  31 December 2021 21: 33
                  Quote: Aviator_
                  I noticed a similar effect too

                  The fact is that you are not the only one to put the plus and minus signs, and it is quite possible that at the moment when you put a plus, someone puts a minus there. Well, plus for minus, as you know, gives zero as a result, that is, you see that there is no reaction to your plus sign. hi
                  1. +2
                    1 January 2022 10: 21
                    That's just it, that in most such cases + - appear simultaneously, and even when points are taken into account, no reduction occurs - all + and all - are highlighted. And then just blocking comments.
              2. 0
                31 December 2021 09: 26
                Quote: Serge-667
                But they could not, at the same time with me, four people expressed their will in 10 minutes.

                Easy. Hover the cursor over the comment rating number, and you will see how many pluses and minuses there are in the rating. hi
                1. +5
                  31 December 2021 10: 16
                  Yes, this is understandable, but too fast, don't you think?
              3. +6
                31 December 2021 12: 35
                This has been going on for almost a month now. And on hurray-patriotic comments. minus is not put, but on real and soberly weighed plus. I think this is hardly a technical glitch.
              4. +1
                8 January 2022 12: 26
                I don’t really press buttons at all, I just read. But they could not, at the same time with me, four people expressed their will in 10 minutes.

                They could. Press the "refresh page" button more often, and the pluses and minuses will worry less.
            2. +2
              31 December 2021 10: 16
              I, too, do not put a "plus". There have not been such strange incidents before. Someone put a "minus" at the same time (in the same second) with me ??
              1. +2
                31 December 2021 10: 26
                Quote: Volder
                (at the same second) with me ??

                No, you see a page with the data that was relevant at the time you opened it. By rating, you are updating the rating data. If you open the page and leave it for a couple of hours, and then start giving marks, then the metamorphoses will surprise you at all! laughing
                If a person was thrown pluses, then by putting an assessment you will see several others instead of one of yours, if you have thrown minuses, then instead of your + you will see several -. hi
                1. +4
                  31 December 2021 13: 42
                  It's clear about two hours, but about 5 minutes?
                  1. 0
                    31 December 2021 13: 50
                    Quote: Serge-667
                    It's clear about two hours, but about 5 minutes?

                    Do you include bot farms? wink They come in a herd, at the command of the curator! laughing
        2. -6
          31 December 2021 09: 19
          Quote: ivan2022
          And they refused not "in the USSR", but from the USSR itself

          In 1988 year?
          Quote: ivan2022
          had two successful launches by the end of 1988

          The names of the astronauts who flew on it can not be named? He was supposed to be manned.
          Quote: ivan2022
          recently burnt corvette

          And how many fires and the like were hidden from the population in the USSR?
          Quote: ivan2022
          give away with rotten stuff decades ago

          This is when they tried to build a Utopia and ended up in such a shame that history did not know?
          1. +1
            8 January 2022 12: 28
            Gorbachev visited Baikonur, looked at Buran, and said that we do not need this, with which funding was stopped. It was necessary to watch TV more attentively, but in the news, in the program "Time", they showed it.
            1. -3
              8 January 2022 12: 54
              Quote: Bratkov Oleg
              Gorbachev visited Baikonur

              And in the US, who visited a similar pepelats?
              Was he also at the meeting of chief designers?
              1. 0
                29 January 2022 00: 40
                Penpelats in the USA was frank shit, unable to fly off its calculated resource, and after two quite expected accidents, during which powder kegs that they could only put on a manned ship destroyed Collymbia and Challenger, the Americans threw them into the dustbin of history so as not to crap even more, and for 10 years they flew into space only thanks to a confluence of political conjunctures, on Russian ships. Where is this super-American civilization? And there is no getting away without Russia, because Russia has been flying into space for 60 years, and the United States has been flying for only 40 years, and even that is unsuccessful.
                ----
                PS, where the text is curved, you need to insert bad words about the Americans - the script cuts ...)))
                1. 0
                  29 January 2022 07: 58
                  Quote: Bratkov Oleg
                  and after two quite expected accidents

                  And everything was perfect with Buran? And at that time they could easily get all the necessary information.
                  1. 0
                    4 February 2022 09: 52
                    Buran flew into space once, without accident.
                    Or do you want to voice your own fantasies?

                    While the Mace was being tested, it exploded 15 times during launches. Now it is in service, and name at least one emergency launch (pah-pah). So it was with Buran, what happened there and how with mock-ups and stands when the car was being debugged, on the drum. The real Buran flew into space the first time without any accidents.
                    But both launches of Saturn-5, when it was supposed to take the mock load into space, ended in the destruction of the rockets in flight. Half a year after the explosion of the second Saturn-5, flights to the moon began in the film studio. Partially fueled rockets flew beautifully and slowly into the sky, and fell into the ocean.
                    1. 0
                      4 February 2022 12: 40
                      Quote: Bratkov Oleg
                      Buran flew into space once, without accident.
                      One. How it happened next is unknown.
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      And at that time they could easily get all the necessary information.
                      Why the Americans were not interested in them is also a question.
        3. +8
          31 December 2021 13: 29
          Heh ... heh ... this is the one that had two successful launches by the end of 1988 and a 100 tonne payload at LEO.
          .. Why two? ) One and a half ..)) The first launch was about as successful as it is now .. ((The payload (either a military satellite or a station ..) did not enter orbit and splashed down in a given region of the Pacific Ocean ...
          1. +4
            31 December 2021 20: 21
            Quote: Nekarmadlen
            Heh ... heh ... this is the one that had two successful launches by the end of 1988 and a 100 tonne payload at LEO.
            .. Why two? ) One and a half ..)) The first launch was about as successful as it is now .. ((The payload (either a military satellite or a station ..) did not enter orbit and splashed down in a given region of the Pacific Ocean ...

            why one and a half? Buran did not take off the first time.
            1. +1
              8 January 2022 12: 34
              The Buran-Energiya system took off the first time, trouble-free, like a watch. This was a major blow to the American lunar scam. If the N-1 rocket was launched only 4 times, the designers promised the 7th launch trouble-free, from the 12th launch - manned, and now they are trying to say that they fired the rocket 4 times, and it didn’t work, they couldn’t do it, and supposedly for this reason, the program was closed, although the fuel was drained from the 5th, fueled rocket, and removed from the launch pad, not letting go, although already the 5th could take off without an accident .... Then the Energy took off twice completely successfully, according to the program. And all that was left was to fly to the moon, and show how it really is ... And then the liberals lay down with bones, but destroyed both Energy and the USSR to boot. To keep Americans white, fluffy, and great.
              1. -1
                8 January 2022 13: 24
                Quote: Bratkov Oleg
                The Buran-Energiya system took off the first time, trouble-free, like a watch.

                no, it didn't take off, I was on the duty shift
                The cable mast did not come off and the gyrocompasses did not spin, the start was postponed in the last minutes, launched after 2 weeks
                Quote: Bratkov Oleg
                ... Then the Energy took off twice completely successfully, according to the program.

                again not true.
                The first launch with a mass and size model was partially successful (the object was not launched into the calculated orbit) I wrote about the second one,
                Quote: Bratkov Oleg
                ... And then the liberals fell to their bones, but they destroyed both Energy and the USSR in addition. To keep Americans white, fluffy, and great.

                just because you believe in unicorns doesn't mean they exist.
                1. 0
                  15 January 2022 22: 23
                  What are you bringing a blizzard?
                  "Energy-Buran" flew the first time. It did not explode in the air, did not fall apart, "Buran" did not burn out over the Pacific Ocean. Well, they let Energiya, for the first time, with a satellite model, so what? What happened to the Buran after the Energia engines were turned on? or do you have arguments that it wasn’t the first time, because one of the engines was rejected during the assembly of the rocket and sent for rework?
                  The United States has never been able to, and still is not able to, put into orbit a payload of such a mass as Buran. And American shuttles have never put more than 19 tons into orbit. Do you know the difference between a shuttle and a Buran, or unicorns, flat earthers, the firmament?
                  1. 0
                    17 January 2022 08: 09
                    Quote: Bratkov Oleg
                    What are you bringing a blizzard?
                    "Energy-Buran" flew the first time. It did not explode in the air, did not fall apart, "Buran" did not burn out over the Pacific Ocean

                    I am writing to you in black and white - the energy-blizzard did not take off the first time.
                    I was on duty shift.
                    The reasons for the cancellation of the start I wrote above
                    The historic flight of this "duet" could have taken place 17 days earlier, on October 29. But then the automation canceled the launch of Energia 51 seconds before the launch, having discovered a malfunction in one of the systems. On November 15, the launch of the rocket and the launch of the rocket plane into the calculated orbit took place in the normal mode,

                    https://buran.tass.ru/posadka-burana

                    Quote: Bratkov Oleg
                    Well, they let Energiya, for the first time, with a satellite model, so what?

                    nothing, partially successful - as it was written above. Do you have reading comprehension problems?
                    Quote: Bratkov Oleg
                    What happened to the Buran after the Energia engines were turned on?

                    after turning on the engines? Energy?
                    Are you in kindergarten?
                    Quote: Bratkov Oleg
                    or do you have arguments that it wasn’t the first time, because one of the engines was rejected during the assembly of the rocket and sent for rework?

                    You have a particular problem with reading comprehension. And above he described the problems that led to the fact that the Energia-Buran link did not take off the first time
                    Quote: Bratkov Oleg
                    The United States has never been able, and still is not able to put into orbit a payload of such a mass as Buran

                    The United States certainly does not know how. so nothing that the space shuttle program flew over 100 times.
                    And a blizzard in a manned version - never.
                    Quote: Bratkov Oleg
                    . And American shuttles have never put more than 19 tons into orbit

                    Energy didn't do anything at all.
                    Quote: Bratkov Oleg
                    Do you know the difference between a shuttle and a Buran, or unicorns, flat earthers, the firmament?

                    Of course I know and much better than you.
                    The shuttles flew over 100 times, put into orbit and removed from orbit and repaired a huge number of satellites in orbit, including Hubble, Buran and Energia did nothing (as a program). Efficiency is absolute zero.
                    Alas.
                    1. 0
                      18 January 2022 22: 29
                      So how many "Energies" exploded on the launch pad, are you our yap?
                      1. 0
                        27 January 2022 13: 02
                        Exactly the same amount as it completed real tasks. And yes, of course, rockets that do not fly fall much less often =) However, each of the shuttles, even those that exploded, managed to complete quite a lot of missions before the accident
                      2. 0
                        29 January 2022 00: 20
                        But Energy flew, and put 100 tons into orbit, and Saturns are only good fellows in Hollywood. I'm talking about stupid brainless people who can't add 2 + 2. For example, Armstrong has never been in space in his life, so he does not know what the stars look like there. Brainless morons need to either insist on their opinion, proving their brainlessness, or still figure out that Armstrong flew on Gemeni, with a porthole in front of the actor’s face, and flew on rocket planes that rose above 100 kilometers, supposedly, and nowhere did Armstrong see one star, and only stupid people cannot say why a man who has never been in space in his life was chosen to represent the lunar scam. Guess that there were no other options, the rest were the same liars as Armstrong? Interview with a typical American liar:
                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T88pzns4tZs
                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54aZdsnrbms&t=1s
        4. -3
          31 December 2021 18: 39
          "They are given away with rotten meat many decades ago. Like your current sausage." If you buy such a sausage and go to the place where it is sold, this is your problem, the market is full of quality products. And yes Angara is the groundwork for replacing environmentally dirty Protons. we press the replacement of Union 2 - Union 5.
          1. +1
            31 December 2021 20: 12
            Quote: Vadim237
            this is your problem in a market full of quality products.

            Vadik, any more or less intelligent person will have a question about the ratio of prices for quality products to the salary received by a person. wink
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. -4
              3 January 2022 16: 05
              Your salary is also your problem if you want to get more, look for third-party ways to earn money or a new job where they pay more - the harsh reality of our days and no one will get away from it even in the most distant future, and everything natural and high-quality will always be expensive because it is perishable and requires effort and time to produce, and this is if all speculative chains are discarded. Face it.
              1. +1
                3 January 2022 22: 49
                Quote: Vadim237
                howling salary - it is also your problem want to get more look for third-party ways to earn money or a new job where they pay more - the harsh reality of our days

                Individuals who do not produce surplus value and do not in any way influence the solution of the demographic crisis will never understand that there are a lot of professions that today receive less than the average salary in the country, and it is extremely difficult to survive on it.
        5. 0
          31 December 2021 18: 42
          "Heh ... heh ... this is the one that had two successful launches by the end of 1988 and a carrying capacity of 100 tons at LEO" no longer pulled.
          1. +2
            1 January 2022 02: 24
            and there the price tag was space, which is why the American space shuttle program was curtailed. even with sufficiently successful shuttle flights, and there were 135 of them for the entire time of the program, the Americans returned to more practical options for launching the launch vehicle into orbit
          2. 0
            29 January 2022 00: 29
            Vadim237 (Vadim), you lie worse than a dog.
            Gorbachev, fulfilling the requirements of the United States, simply blocked the Energia program, he ruined the USSR with all the levers that he had.
            Learn, don't learn! A PLANNED ECONOMY is an invention of the USSR, this is when it is known in advance how much to spend on a program, and what burden this will have on the country's economy. If something was too expensive, it would have been abandoned before the money was spent on the project. Even corporals in the USSR knew this, but you are lying, right in the face, shameless, very rotten and vile. Well, this is understandable, the less a person understands, the more specialist he is in what he does not understand.
        6. +7
          31 December 2021 20: 19
          Quote: ivan2022
          Heh ... heh ... this is the one that had two successful launches by the end of 1988

          the first launch of Energiya was also partially successful - the mass and size model was not launched into the calculated orbit
          The second launch (in conjunction with a blizzard) - did not take off from the first time (the cable mast 0 did not come off. The launch was postponed for 2 weeks, and everyone will know about that.
          1. 0
            29 January 2022 00: 33
            Or maybe there were 100 launches of Energy? Well, cho, lie, so lie! Start, this is when the engines are turned on. As soon as Energia's engines turned on, that is, the launch took place, Buran was launched into space, into Earth's orbit. Do you definitely have a brain, or will you dispute that both launches were completely successful?
      2. +7
        31 December 2021 08: 05
        Quote: Dart2027
        Is this the one that was sawed for 14 years (1974-1988) and which was abandoned back in the USSR?

        Are you serious? Do you know for what reasons the Buran program was canceled? belay
        1. +9
          31 December 2021 08: 27
          They don't even know why the USSR collapsed. They are now being told that due to the high costs of the arms race and the low efficiency of socialist management)
          1. +7
            31 December 2021 16: 20
            With all the dislike for these figures wink But they tell them the truth))) Though not all. Because the first and the second were enough, unfortunately. Of course, not only this contributed ...
            But ..... if the personnel policy and, accordingly, the main part of the "effective management apparatus" were sane, there would be no costs, not quite, to put it mildly, effective, and social management would be better. But they usually don't talk about this, otherwise too many parallels are drawn ... And if you remember Nikolai Ivanovich, then I do not end with a good parallel feel
            True, he also left Kazan University after himself, not only geometry ... But to the university named after him in another city, on New Year's Eve, instead of Santa Claus, other people come, IChSKh, also wearing masks, albeit in a different way reason. But other studies are in vogue right now.
            The Institute of Philosophy of the Russian Academy of Sciences (RAS) spent 742 thousand rubles. for the study "Is the existence of hell evil". This is evidenced by data from the public procurement website.

            In October, this agreement was fulfilled. Igor Gasparov (Associate Professor, Candidate of Philosophy, works at the Voronezh State Medical University named after N.N.Burdenko and the Higher School of Economics (NRU HSE) was indicated as the only supplier of government purchases.)

            In addition, according to the public procurement website, the Institute of Philosophy of the Russian Academy of Sciences spent:

            667 thousand rubles to carry out the scientific work "Alexius Meinong and Austrian philosophy of the XIX - early XX: Basic ideas and late scholastic roots." The contract was executed one and a half weeks ago.
            742 thousand rubles. for the study "Useless Freedom and the Problem of Hell". Alexander Mishura (Ph.D., teaches at the National Research University Higher School of Economics) is indicated as the only supplier of public procurement. The contract was executed in October.
            686 thousand rubles for the research "The relational dimension of the problem of evil and mystical theodicy". The work is done by Bohdan Fowl.


            Again, well .....
            We now have only three doctors of theology and twelve defended candidates. These are the doctors and candidates whose degrees are recognized by the state.

            This is April, although not the first, sort of like ....
            1. +6
              1 January 2022 08: 17
              The Institute of Philosophy of the Russian Academy of Sciences (RAS) spent 742 thousand rubles. for the study "Is the existence of hell evil". This is evidenced by data from the public procurement website.

              That's what I understand!
              Directly by O. Henry!)))
            2. +1
              1 January 2022 18: 17
              Looks like a fake, can I have a link?
              1. +2
                1 January 2022 22: 44
                What exactly is fake? Doctors of Theology or New Year's Eve Mask Show at the University? Or an eternal theme .... the peculiarities of the Union?
                1. -2
                  2 January 2022 03: 15
                  The Institute of Philosophy of the Russian Academy of Sciences (RAS) spent 742 thousand rubles. for the study "Is the existence of hell evil". This is evidenced by data from the public procurement website.

                  In October, this agreement was fulfilled. Igor Gasparov (Associate Professor, Candidate of Philosophy, works at the Voronezh State Medical University named after N.N.Burdenko and the Higher School of Economics (NRU HSE) was indicated as the only supplier of government purchases.)

                  In addition, according to the public procurement website, the Institute of Philosophy of the Russian Academy of Sciences spent:

                  667 thousand rubles to carry out the scientific work "Alexius Meinong and Austrian philosophy of the XIX - early XX: Basic ideas and late scholastic roots." The contract was executed one and a half weeks ago.
                  742 thousand rubles. for the study "Useless Freedom and the Problem of Hell". Alexander Mishura (Ph.D., teaches at the National Research University Higher School of Economics) is indicated as the only supplier of public procurement. The contract was executed in October.
                  686 thousand rubles for the research "The relational dimension of the problem of evil and mystical theodicy". The work is done by Bohdan Fowl.
                  I mean it.
                  1. +1
                    2 January 2022 23: 03
                    Duc is checked at a time. Or do you think that the federal media can build something out of the blue and the great RAS will be wiped out? There is no agenda yet, so it is unlikely ...
                    Vesti, RBK, RIA .... Shaw still need? Himself?
                    Or do you really regret that now instead of "British scientists" there will be "Russian" ones?
                    1. +1
                      3 January 2022 13: 50
                      Quote: frog
                      Duc is checked at a time.

                      Quote: Serge-667
                      That's what I understand!

                      Quote: Usher
                      I mean it.

                      Curiously, the bottom line: Total at the expense of budgetary funds RUB 0,00. What does that mean?
                      1. 0
                        3 January 2022 22: 15
                        Quote: region58
                        What would it mean?

                        Quote: Usher
                        Well, then you can link?

                        I will answer myself, but at the same time you may be interested. This is a grant.
                        This time: https://zakupki.gov.ru/epz/contractfz223/card/contract-info.html?id=11063985
                        These are two: https://www.bfm.ru/news/489667
                        PS I will not talk about the proportionality of payment, since I am not strong in matters of theology.
                        PPS would ask what kind of institute this is, otherwise they are now like dirt, but ... something is lazy ...
                    2. 0
                      3 January 2022 20: 25
                      Quote: frog
                      Duc is checked at a time. Or do you think that the federal media can build something out of the blue and the great RAS will be wiped out? There is no agenda yet, so it is unlikely ...
                      Vesti, RBK, RIA .... Shaw still need? Himself?
                      Or do you really regret that now instead of "British scientists" there will be "Russian" ones?

                      Well, then you can link?
          2. +2
            31 December 2021 18: 52
            "They are now being told that because of the high costs of the arms race and the low efficiency of socialist management)" And this is a fact, but there were other problems, which led to the beginning of the end of the USSR - 1986 became the point of no return.
          3. 0
            1 January 2022 06: 00
            They don't even know why the USSR collapsed. They are now being told that due to the high costs of the arms race and the low efficiency of socialist management)

            And what is wrong?
            Or will you now retell a newfangled training manual about the traitor Gorbachev, who got so much money on betrayal that later he had to appear in a pizza advertisement?
            1. +2
              1 January 2022 08: 20
              And what is wrong?


              Did you study mathematics at school? Or some fundamentals of economics? Compare the figures for spending on space, defense, and so on.
              Be surprised)

              ..retelling a newfangled training manual about the traitor Gorbachev ..


              I, kagbe, lived under Brezhnev, and under Andropov, and under Kucher, and under all those who followed.
              So yes, Gorbachev is a traitor and. And it was clear even THEN. What is there now "newfangled" absolutely not in the know.
              Misha is a sample of the purest scoundrel. But, by and large, he is just the tip of the iceberg.
              1. +5
                1 January 2022 09: 20
                So yes, Gorbachev is a traitor and. And it was clear even THEN. What is "newfangled" there now is absolutely not in the know


                Turn on the logic.
                If Gorbachev was a traitor, then he should have been paid such a huge amount that he would have lived in palaces.
                However, he starred in commercials, and fast food, like a small actor - that means he had no money.
                I’m silent that it is extremely ADVANTAGEOUS for the current government to accuse Gorbachev of treason - but officially no one is accusing him.
                My opinion is that there was no betrayal. Gorbachev only knew how to balabol and did not know how to work. And balabol at the helm of the enterprise is the sure way to collapse, without any betrayal.
                It's just that the entire system of the CPSU was aimed at promoting balabols, business executives were not held in high esteem

                Did you study mathematics at school? Or some fundamentals of economics? Compare the figures for spending on space, defense, and so on.

                Studied.
                Defense spending in the USSR exceeded 14%.
                In 89, out of the total 489 billion rubles, 75 billion were spent on defense.
                Don't forget about the hidden costs - the fact that half of the institutes did military projects in one way or another, the maintenance of military camps, military pensions, etc.
                1. -4
                  1 January 2022 09: 37
                  Turn on the logic.

                  Have you forgotten about the "ideological" traitors?
                  Of course, I am not a supporter of the version that Gorbachev was recruited. All this is nonsense. But the fact that he passed EVERYTHING is a fact. And nobody will blame him now. This is not at all beneficial for the current government, because it exists precisely because of this traitor. At the last parade, VVP passed by and did not even say hello to him. An excellent indicator.
                  With regard to defense spending, I would like to hear the source, because comparative data even from the CIA and SIPRI show slightly different numbers.
                  And how "costly" were, for example, the costs of the same Burana heat-shielding tile, which was developed by the Department of Materials Science of a completely civil construction institute.
                  1. +6
                    1 January 2022 10: 51
                    Have you forgotten about the "ideological" traitors?

                    An ideological traitor is.
                    A system that admits an idiot to a leadership position is doomed.

                    It’s not at all profitable for the current government.

                    Extremely beneficial.
                    You can blame everything on him.

                    With regards to defense spending, I would like to hear the source

                    http://alternathistory.com/voennye-rashody-sovetskogo-soyuza/

                    And we must not forget that the USSR was a closed system and hid a lot of military expenses - just from the CIA.
                    Real costs could be even higher - remember what series of equipment was produced. Not 15-20 planes, as now, but hundreds. Tanks and infantry fighting vehicles - in thousands
                    1. +2
                      1 January 2022 11: 06
                      An ideological traitor is.
                      A system that admits an idiot to a leadership position is doomed

                      Here I completely agree with you. And if there is protection from the fool in the use of nuclear weapons, then getting him to run the state is an affordable option. One thing consoles, we are not alone with this)
                      and by the link, below the table:
                      “As can be seen from the table, defense spending in the USSR was not of any excessively high character. From the early 1960s to the mid-1970s, they ranged from 10 to 15% of all expenditure items of the state budget, and from the mid-1970 -x became even less than 10%. Moreover, even during the period when defense spending was about 20% (1950s), the Soviet economy demonstrated rapid growth in almost all directions. "

                      And then, you are confusing the concept of "share of budget expenditures" and share of GDP.
                      And so, from the budget, as a percentage, and now at least 16.
                      1. +2
                        1 January 2022 15: 16
                        defense spending in the USSR was not of an excessively high character

                        As I say, a lot of data was closed and passed on to other industries.
                        Let's compare how many tanks are produced now per year, and how many then.
                        The number of aircraft, the number of ships, nuclear warheads, etc.
                        Well, miracles do not happen, a tank will not appear out of nowhere. It is possible to consider only the salaries of the crew as military expenditures (so that the enemy does not know the production figures), or the entire technological cycle - and the payment of miners who extract ore, and steel workers, and power engineers, and engineers, etc.
                        More than half of our equipment comes from the USSR - can you imagine with what volume and stock it was produced ...
                        Yes, even compare the size of the army - in the USSR in the 90m year there were 4,2 million people, now it is 0,9 million.
                        Even taking into account the decrease in the population, it is still a 2x superiority.
                        But all the military must be fed, clothed, built houses for them, etc.
                      2. 0
                        1 January 2022 15: 53
                        More than half of our equipment comes from the USSR - can you imagine with what volume and stock it was produced ...

                        So in most modern developments, legs grow from the Soviet past.
                        And there is nothing to compare, because the current situation in industry is miserable, to say the least. At this rate, in 30 years, we will be left without an ocean-going fleet at all.
                        Therefore, the military must be fed and clothed more intensively))

                        zs but remember about the interesting word "conversion", just not in the same way as under Gorbachev.
                      3. +4
                        1 January 2022 16: 30
                        And there is nothing to compare, because the current situation in industry is miserable, to say the least.

                        Oh, well, you don't like our position, let's compare it with China. Are there any questions about China's industry?
                        So, China has an army of 2 million. One and a half billion China has an army 2 times less than that of the 0,3 billion USSR.
                        And they produce equipment ten times less than the USSR.
                        Now China has 6740 tanks and 3800 infantry fighting vehicles.
                        Let me remind you that in 1990 there were 63 tanks and 900 infantry fighting vehicles in the USSR.
                        Once again, with a population of 5 times more, with a developed industry, China produces about 10 times less technology.

                        Of course, whoever does not feed his army feeds someone else's.
                        But his own army can devour the state.
                        Balance is needed everywhere
                      4. +2
                        1 January 2022 17: 01
                        China's area is two times less than even that of the Russian Federation, China has one fleet, while the Soviet Union had as many as FIVE of them. For clarity, a picture of one of the zones of influence.
                        The Mediterranean Sea, in which it was always not cold.

                        The 5th OpEsk had more pennants in its composition than the entire Russian Navy. This is despite the fact that the tasks were solved locally, without diverting a significant resource from other fleets. But the costs of the Gorshkov's Fleet were much as modest, in relation to the general military costs.
                        And that's okay. Because our borders are much longer than the Chinese ones. In general, this is a matter of principle. If we intend to continue to look into the mouth of the Washington Regional Committee, because "we have capital there, children study and wives with mistresses in hypermarkets and live 360 ​​days a year," then we need to hold a referendum, disarm the nafik and finish off the remnants of an ancient highly developed civilization on Turkish vtorchermet ..
                        The military budget is not an indicator that the army is devouring its own country, but rather an indicator of the country's level of development in relation to its interests. After all, the Chinese army can be hired. Let them quietly cut out Siberia and the Far East, and let them guard us. Isn't it an option?))
                      5. +2
                        2 January 2022 01: 44
                        China has half the area of ​​\ uXNUMXb \ uXNUMXb even that of the Russian Federation

                        We seem to be talking about general defense spending, but for some reason you started talking about the REASONS.
                        China has one fleet, while the Soviet Union had FIVE of them

                        Of course.
                        And if we literally compare the armies, it turns out that in the USSR there were 1 times more military men for 10 peasant (worker) than in modern China. (With a population of 5 times larger, the Chinese army is 2 times smaller).
                        That is, according to logical estimates, defense spending in China is an order of magnitude (10 times) less than the USSR.
                        If we intend to continue to look into the mouth of the Washington regional committee,

                        What does this have to do with it?
                        Defense spending does not depend in any way on looking in someone's mouth.
                        The military budget is not an indicator that the army is devouring its country

                        This is one of the indicators.
                        If a third of the population directly or indirectly works for defense, the rest are forced to feed them. There is no time for development, not for investing in promising projects.

                        Just an exaggerated example: what if, instead of 100 thousand T-54s, they produced cars, the USSR would make 5 million of them. We have released fewer Muscovites over the years since the end of the war.

                        It would be possible to provide for the entire population, and not only for our own.
                        But these resources were spent on the creation of 1 tank. And there was a shortage of cars and a long queue.
                        After all, the Chinese army can be hired.

                        Ancient Egypt, by the way, did just that. For a couple of centuries it was the norm, and then the troops removed the Pharaoh and installed their own.
                        But in Japan, their own military took power, made the emperor a puppet, stopped in development, threw the country into the Middle Ages.
                        And when the Europeans arrived, they rushed with swords to the cannons.
                        Extremes are always bad and destructive for the country.
                      6. -2
                        2 January 2022 02: 11
                        We seem to be talking about general defense spending, but for some reason you started talking about the REASONS.

                        How can defense spending be compared without the context of the spending itself?
                        Excuse me, you will need the same number of Bastion complexes to guard China and to guard the coastlines of the USSR / RF ???
                        And people to them? What about the logistics of the service?
                        How can you, like that, with confidence, divide the number of people by the number of tanks and say MANY!
                        OK. If "a lot" ...
                        The United States spends on its military needs more than anyone else in the world, and, moreover, almost in total.
                        It's a lot? or the US budget is bursting at the seams and the power is bursting with bastards who want to urgently hand over all military secrets to Russia? How long will they still rot there? About their quick and inevitable "just about" I have heard for 50 years. Do they spend a lot on defense?
                        what if instead of 100 thousand T-54, they produced cars - the USSR would make 5 million of them

                        And I'll tell you what would have happened.
                        Traffic jams would be as dead as they are now. The number of fatal accidents would increase. The gasoline that the military needs would be burned by these fat and contented private traders and public transport was covered with a copper basin.
                        And the USSR would have collapsed not in 91, but in 62
                      7. +4
                        2 January 2022 13: 33
                        The United States spends on its military needs more than anyone else in the world, and, moreover, almost in total.
                        It's a lot?

                        That's a lot.
                        And America's problems are slowly piling up.
                        America partially compensates for defense spending with exports (the Soviet Union did not work out the export of weapons - remember how many debts you wrote off)

                        Traffic jams would be as dead as they are now. The number of fatal accidents would increase. The gasoline that the military needs would be burned by these fat and contented private traders and public transport was covered with a copper basin.
                        And the USSR would have collapsed not in 91, but in 62

                        Something Japan is not falling apart. USA is not falling apart.
                        Transport is the blood of the state. Moves produced resources where they are needed.
                        Of course, transport means barbecue pokatushki, but transport means developing villages and small businesses.
                      8. -1
                        2 January 2022 13: 52
                        Transport is the blood of the state. Moves produced resources where they are needed

                        Passenger and freight transport, Note (!!!) not five million Muscovites 412.
                        And on kebabs in the USSR there were pokatushek, even if heaps. And on the collective farms, everyone was with transport. I don’t remember walking. The minimum is large, the maximum is a loaf or zil 130.
                      9. +2
                        3 January 2022 00: 43
                        And on the collective farms, everyone was with transport. I don’t remember walking. The minimum is large, the maximum is a loaf or zil 130.

                        And that was it. Zil-130 is also great.
                        Only on a bike you can't really take away nichrome, and driving the Zil-130 for every little thing is so-so pleasure.
                        And there were almost no loaves on the collective farms - just over half a million of them were produced. Loaves were also badly needed for the country, as well as mini-trucks, as well as small tractors. But all this was not released - because it was necessary to make tanks, tanks, tanks.

                        Once again, I repeat, a country without an army feeds someone else's army. This is an axiom.
                        But when military spending in a country is 10 times higher per person than that of its neighbors (we compared it with China), it is not surprising that the defense industry has devoured the country.
                        There was a shortage, food stamps (they appeared under Brezhnev, long before Gorbachev, by the way).

                      10. -1
                        3 January 2022 01: 47
                        Food coupons under Brezhnev ????? This is the first time I hear it)))) Under Brezhnev, chickens and pigs were fed bread from the store, because grain and compound feed were more expensive at cost.
                        Exactly in 82nd, 83rd.
                        Most likely it's photoshop. I did not find anything else adequate, except that in 82, in the Vologda region, there were problems with the supply of sausage and butter. Coupons are Gorbachev. 1988 and beyond. But this is no longer the USSR. This is the kind of word that I will be banned for.

                        By the way, I remembered .. In the year 85, I changed raw smoked sausage for doctor's and blood ... I couldn't eat raw smoked sausage anymore)

                        And the defense industry did not gobble up the country. This is all the star of the Democrats. The only falling figure in all sources is 1989.
                        In the rest of the years, with all the defense workloads, everything was normal and the country was developing. Another question is that analysts did not work well. Many factors were not considered.
                        Ever since after Stalin's death, instead of building a normal socialist society, attempts began to stick elements of bourgeois-capitalist nishtyaks into the life of Soviet people, since then, the USSR has rolled. What kind of ideology is there when the elite has everything for free, and the citizens listen about milk yield. This is what destroyed the country. For already the second post-Stalinist generation of the party nomenklatura simply rotted under the pressure of temptations. Alas.
                        And with the Army there were all the rules. We even won the Star Wars, oddly enough.
                      11. +3
                        3 January 2022 05: 33
                        This is not photoshop. In Chelyabinsk, coupons appeared after the 80 Olympics. I was still happy with the little things. What this type of free will be. It turned out - hourly queues and for money. And take what they give.
                        Havana cigars, on the other hand, were freely available. In such brown boxes. The truth is, I don't know a single person who would buy them.
                      12. 0
                        3 January 2022 05: 43
                        Well, fake it ... My elder sister with her husband and child lived in Vorkuta at that time, they came every summer, as a tragedy, to the seas.
                        So they were more prosperous than us, then I lived with my parents in the Kuban. I don't remember her complaining.
                      13. +1
                        5 January 2022 17: 10
                        I bought a cigar, though not every week, even to enjoy it, you need a lot of free time and a corresponding mood. There was also a dollar cafe in Chelyabinsk, I don’t remember its real name, there was very tasty ice cream there. I don’t remember coupons, I didn’t live, but visited on weekends, but there was something like food orders at large enterprises.
                      14. +2
                        3 January 2022 07: 41
                        Food coupons under Brezhnev ????? This is the first time I hear this

                        This is your first time, but my friends used them to shop.
                        Of course, coupons did not appear all over the country at the same time, there were regions with the best supplies.
                        Chelyabinsk, Magnitogorsk - coupons appeared there in 81.
                        As the deficit developed, they were introduced in other regions.
                        They appeared everywhere in 86 - here's a proof for you, a transcript from February 1986, which says that coupons must be canceled:
                        "Economically sound retail prices will reduce the gap between supply and demand, and eliminate coupons and other forms of distribution."
                        http://soveticus5.narod.ru/85/xxviit1.htm

                        And the defense industry did not gobble up the country. This is all the star of the Democrats. The only falling figure in all sources is 1989.

                        We just said that the numbers should not be absolutely believed, and again you are talking about numbers :)
                        Well, I did not show the USSR all the expenses for the defense industry.
                        I have such a friend, a hunter. He says that he spends little on hunting, counting only the cost of the cartridges.
                        And the jeep, which he took only for hunting, ammunition, equipment - these are not hunting expenses, this is so ...
                        Once again, let's compare with other countries: in China there are 10 per peasant !!! times less military than in the USSR. You will not assert to me now with a serious face that the labor productivity of a modern Chinese peasant is lower than that of a collective farmer in the USSR?
                        China has built 10 times less armored vehicles, the load on one Chinese worker is 10 times less, it turns out.
                        A Chinese worker may spend more time building houses, machine tools, bulldozers, etc.
                        Of course, you can give the REASONS why the USSR built so much, but this does not negate the fact that the USSR exaggeratedly spent 10 times more on the defense industry than China.
                      15. -1
                        3 January 2022 11: 04
                        You will not assert to me now with a serious face that the labor productivity of a modern Chinese peasant is lower than that of a collective farmer in the USSR?

                        This is an interesting question! Probably I will !!))))
                        But the question must be tightly ventilated. And really compare.

                        Z. I take you at your word!
                        If the USSR "lied about military spending," why are you so sure that China is absolutely honest in numbers?


                        China, in fact, is an agrarian country undergoing a second industrialization. That is why he spends "10 times less". You also need to look at the quality of what they do.
                      16. +2
                        3 January 2022 13: 12
                        Z. I take you at your word!
                        If the USSR "lied about military spending," why are you so sure that China is absolutely honest in numbers?

                        They can lie about expenses.
                        How few secret institutions work on military topics and the Academy of Sciences finances this? Or an ore mine works for a defense plant, and geology finances it ...
                        They lie in our country, in China, and in America, of course. The question is - to what extent?
                        I made a comparison in terms of the size of the army and the number of equipment.
                        Of course, this is not an absolute indicator, but the approximate level of expenses shows

                        China, in fact, is an agrarian country undergoing a second industrialization.

                        Wasn't the USSR an agrarian country undergoing industrialization? And the quality was so-so, even for military equipment.
                        Alas, I have not encountered aviation, I cannot say.
                        But military trucks are poured only on the way.

                        By the way, a little on the topic of how much the USSR spent on defense:
                        A friend works in a small part of the communications, you know such - one barracks in a deep forest.
                        There are about 10-15 of them in total.
                        So, back in the 80s, about 15 Zil-157 and Zil-131 trucks were allocated for this part.
                        In addition, a couple of Urals and MTLBV heels.
                        Of course the ZILs are rotting.
                        I climbed on them and was shocked - many cars are really new, mileage 100-200 km
                        But of course everything is already rotten.
                        They did not even cannibalize them - the Uralov was quite enough for them.
                        And it is impossible to keep cars in the open air in the forest.
                      17. 0
                        3 January 2022 13: 55
                        But of course everything is already rotten.
                        They did not even cannibalize them - the Uralov was quite enough for them.
                        And it is impossible to keep cars in the open air in the forest.

                        With this one, yes. The trouble was complete. By what principle the equipment was distributed, I myself still do not understand.
                        Because, I think, at least 30% of such equipment produced simply did not need the army.
                        The peculiarity of socialist realism is when no one is responsible for anything, because everything is common.
                      18. +1
                        7 January 2022 01: 55
                        The trouble was complete. By what principle the equipment was distributed, I myself still do not understand.

                        It is believed that a planned economy can only be realized if a supercomputer is controlled.
                        He will be able to distribute impartially and adequately, and most importantly, within a reasonable time frame.
                        But still there is a question with feedback
                      19. 0
                        7 January 2022 17: 03
                        It is believed that a planned economy can only be realized if a supercomputer is controlled.

                        By no means.
                        Most large American companies, in particular, such as Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and in general, all the military-industrial components of the United States operate and live in a command-and-control regime and a planned economy.

                        It is here on our ears to pour bakery products from the market and freedom of competition. And everything is clear there. Not fulfilled the plan, go nafig.
                      20. 0
                        8 January 2022 03: 09
                        Most large American companies, in particular, such as Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and in general, all the military-industrial components of the United States operate and live in a command-and-control regime and a planned economy.

                        You are confusing terms
                        A planned economy differs from a market economy - who owns and how funds and resources are allocated, not plans.
                        You are simply confused by the word "plan".
                        You can live without plans in a planned economy, and plan development in a market economy.
                        Boeing and Lockheed in no way belong to a planned economy, although they have planning.
                      21. -1
                        8 January 2022 03: 16
                        You are confusing terms
                        A planned economy differs from a market economy - who owns and how funds and resources are allocated, not plans.

                        Um .. Not really. Rather, the definition is yes, correct. But this is more related to the term in the conditions of the socialist form of management (public ownership of the means of production and the results of labor)
                        But what about the same dirigism as one of the forms of the planned economy? Or will we not consider this a form of PI?

                        IMHO, the main thing in PI is not so much the availability of means of production in common ownership, but central planning and distribution of results... That, in fact, we have the same Boeing. They work "for the warehouse". Their economy is only partially dependent on the market.
                        For they themselves, as a monopoly, form this market.
                        Figuratively speaking, whether you want Boeing or not, you will get Boeing.
                      22. 0
                        8 January 2022 03: 27
                        But what about the same dirigism as one of the forms of the planned economy?

                        Dirigism was still in ancient Egypt. And in ancient Rome. And in feudal Europe.
                        This is one of the forms of a planned economy, but not a determining one. And also one of the forms of traditional economics.
                        I say it again, it's just that the term "planned economy" is unfortunate, it confuses.
                        Because plans were also in the primitive communal system.
                      23. -1
                        8 January 2022 03: 33
                        I say it again, it's just that the term "planned economy" is unfortunate, it confuses.

                        OK. I agree. But how, then, should we relate to the "non-interference" of the state? Indeed, instead of Boeing, there could be at least Lockheed and some Cessna. But they sit in their niche and do not cross. Cessna sits in her niche and does not climb on intercontinental flights. Do you really think that for so many years of its existence, this campaign has not stocked up with the means and capabilities to compete with the wide-body, long-haul version of Boeing? Could it? I could. Why is there no competition of that notorious market?
                        (well, I'm so .. exaggerated. But the point is. Where is the healthy competition? and how will the evolution of monopoly dictation end?)
                      24. 0
                        8 January 2022 04: 13
                        But how, then, should we relate to the "non-intervention" of the state?

                        Well, of course you are right, there are no ideally "clean" economies.
                        Only this in no way makes a planned economy viable in the current realities.
                      25. -1
                        8 January 2022 07: 00
                        Those. Boeing & Co., the absence of a "market market", do not convince you of the obvious?))
                        Or is it something else?
                      26. 0
                        8 January 2022 10: 59
                        Those. Boeing & Co., the absence of a "market market", do not convince you of the obvious?

                        Where is the obvious ??
                        The same Musk successfully bypassed Boeing and carries people to the ISS instead of on a dragon, instead of StarLine.
                        Bombardier and Embraer are squeezed out in Boeing regional jets.
                        In the intercontinental segment, there is a tough fight with the airbus.
                        Where is the lack of a market here?
                        Once again: it is clear that there is no ideal fair market, there is lobbying, there are bribes, there is protectionism.
                        But this is particular.
                      27. 0
                        8 January 2022 13: 40
                        The same Musk successfully bypassed Boeing and carried people to the ISS.

                        Let's not go for the current for the Mask! He has a multibillion-dollar GOVERNMENT contract. From the Pentagon.
                        Of course, the Pentagon chose him in a fair competition from a number of other honest businessmen)))
                      28. 0
                        8 January 2022 14: 20
                        Let's not go for the current for the Mask! He has a multibillion-dollar GOVERNMENT contract. From the Pentagon.

                        Oh, and should have put satellites into orbit for free? Are you seriously?
                        If you don't want about the Mask, let's talk about Antares and the electron.
                        They are also slowly pushing Boeing.
                        Or will you also be surprised that STATE contracts are also concluded with them?
                      29. -1
                        8 January 2022 14: 58
                        I won’t be surprised.
                        Just notice !!! (!!!!)
                        Private, market money does not smell here!
                        Where is your healthy competition and the triumph of Capital? :))

                        All at the expense of the hump of labor, panimaesh, Proletarian.
                        And to the moon, and tanks to Honolulu.
                      30. 0
                        8 January 2022 16: 27
                        Private, market money does not smell here!

                        Wait, do you mean to say that when customers choose the most convenient and cheapest option, it is not market relations?
                        What then?
                      31. 0
                        8 January 2022 16: 58
                        And who said that it is the cheapest? Beneficial (to someone), yes.
                        The YF-23A was cheaper and faster and less noticeable, however, due to "certain" circumstances, the YF-22 "won".
                        And this is not competition. This is strictly a defense order. Plan. There is no market here.

                        The market economy is a fairy tale for the poor. Competition, all these "great opportunities of a free economy" are bullshit and capitalist propaganda.
                      32. 0
                        8 January 2022 19: 16
                        And this is not competition. This is strictly a defense order. Plan. There is no market here.

                        Once again, what does the plan have to do with it? Why do you once again cling to this word. Damn, even in ancient Egypt, 8 thousand years ago there was a plan.
                        Planning has nothing to do with the classification of economies at all. No way.
                        Any economy will have planning. In general, with any.

                        And in general, what does the defense order have to do with it? Should there be no defense industry in a market economy?

                        And who said that it is the cheapest?

                        Cheapness is far from the main indicator.
                        Damn, it feels like I'm talking to a child. You don't want to grasp the most commonplace concepts. You look at your shoes first of all, not by price, but by size. You wouldn't buy shoes that are 3 sizes smaller, even if they are cheaper? Well, don't think of the whole world as idiots. Price is not the main indicator.

                        Market economy - fairy tales for the poor

                        However, ALL countries switched to it. Not a single planned economy remained.
                        Do not consider yourself the smartest, and the whole world is idiots.
                      33. AML
                        0
                        5 January 2022 10: 59
                        The development and testing of nuclear weapons was funded by the Ministry of Agriculture.
                        Conventionally, they wanted to build roads through the mountains, but it’s hard with shovels.

                        An analogy with Solntsepek is found in chemists, although that is still a comp.

                        IMHO, any state hides some part of the funding for unspoken needs.
                      34. 0
                        3 January 2022 22: 49
                        Quote: SergKam
                        in China there are 10 per peasant !!! times less military than in the USSR.

                        Is it correct to compare what "was" in the USSR with what is "now" in China? In my opinion, so much has changed in the world ... from technology to warfare.
                      35. -1
                        3 January 2022 16: 15
                        "And there is nothing to compare, because the current state of the industry is miserable, to say the least." For what an "effective" industry was in the USSR, that all the most modern in the West was bought for oil tanks, and from themselves there was a total deficit and the release of obsolete trash and buckets with bolts - in civilian life.
                        Now Russia is not engaged in this idiocy with the release of products to the warehouse because nobody fucking needs it inside the country and does not distribute it right and left for free to dozens of rogue countries. We do not have a poor industry and you are poor left from the USSR.
          4. 0
            11 January 2022 02: 45
            Excuse me, but buying grain from the enemy is an indicator of the high efficiency of socialist management?
        2. -4
          31 December 2021 09: 21
          Quote: Ingvar 72
          Do you know for what reasons the Buran program was canceled?

          Because it was folded. The excuses are not interesting.
      3. +7
        31 December 2021 09: 48
        Is this the one that was sawed for 14 years (1974-1988) and which was abandoned back in the USSR?

        belay
        Do you have any idea the enormity of the task?
        Compared RB (paper airplane folded by you in the 3rd class) with a reusable system, a variant and with an infrastructure (tu-144)
        "Sawed"?
        Yes, you are a new seed-tribe, the eastern cosmodrome, you can’t finish it, and Anya -225 for you will not master in 100 years
        1. +2
          31 December 2021 10: 13
          Quote: ja-ja-vw
          Do you have any idea the enormity of the task?

          So what? There is a fact.
          And, by the way, if the same missiles are successfully modernized and used by the Union of Russia, then they never tried to revive the Buran project, which suggests that everything was not so rosy with it and it was not by chance that it was abandoned in the USSR.
          Quote: ja-ja-vw
          the eastern cosmodrome cannot be finished

          Is this the one from which rockets are already successfully launched?
          1. -4
            31 December 2021 11: 04
            The concept itself was abandoned. She's wrong. And not only us.
            Only those who do nothing do not make mistakes.

            "Run"
            And more?
            Let's see if there will be failures and new caverns.
            If they have stolen so much, it must come out somewhere.
            I personally would prefer to "launch" myself and my family not far from the railway station Tyurotam:
            And everything was built many times faster and. The Trinity was not imprisoned. So they didn't steal
            1. 0
              31 December 2021 12: 41
              Quote: ja-ja-vw
              The concept itself was abandoned. She's wrong. And not only us.
              well, it wasn't me who spoke that
              Quote: ivan2022
              or even more so with Energia-Buran, then the current attempts

              Quote: ja-ja-vw
              "Run"
              And more?

              Do you need by all means more than anyone else? What for? Races do not lead to anything worthwhile, and I haven’t heard that the question of the lack of satellites in orbit has popped up somewhere.
              Quote: ja-ja-vw
              And everything was built many times faster and. The Trinity was not imprisoned.

              I don’t know about stealing, but which is many times faster - so if it was put into operation it doesn’t mean that it was built, only the first site was ready. They are already starting from Vostochny, but the construction is not finished yet.
              1. 0
                31 December 2021 13: 42
                1. Well, he also compared the pathetic attempts and empty bravado from trifles.
                The humble silence of the titan and the bragging of the pygmy. Elephant and pug.
                / for interest, visit the main building Energomash, if you manage to get into the office of (any) top, well, you will definitely reach the secretariat. The cars of the leaders there are also valid, not budgetary ones are parked.
                2. I do not need more than anyone else.
                I need: invested PEOPLE (and mine, including) and the result, payback.
                You don’t need to be an auditor of the RF Audit Chamber, you don’t even need an accountant to understand: $ 150 million annually for Kazakhstan is an order of magnitude (or maybe two) cheaper, more effective + indirect buns.
                But do not steal from annual payments.
                3. A step, a satellite, another mon, brought there becomes golden.
                + the size cuts the options hard.
                Empty everything
                1. +4
                  31 December 2021 14: 50
                  Quote: ja-ja-vw
                  Titan's humble silence and pygmy bragging

                  Show, please, on the map of this "titan".
                  Quote: ja-ja-vw
                  the ashinka of the leaders there are also credited, not budgetary ones are parked

                  Quote: ja-ja-vw
                  the ashinka of the leaders there are also credited, not budgetary ones are parked

                  And in the USSR there were no those who were more equal than others.
                  Quote: ja-ja-vw
                  You don’t need to be an auditor of the RF Accounts Chamber, you don’t even need an accountant to understand: $ 150 million annually for Kazakhstan is an order of magnitude (or maybe two) cheaper, more effective + indirect bonuses

                  That is, paying another country is better than building at home? Moreover, becoming dependent on a change in power there? Also, start telling tales about friendship between peoples.
                  Quote: ja-ja-vw
                  A step, a satellite, another mon, brought there becomes golden.
                  + the size cuts the options hard.

                  And in Russian?
                2. 0
                  31 December 2021 19: 07
                  “You don’t need to be an auditor of the RF Accounts Chamber, you don’t even need an accountant to understand: $ 150 million annually for Kazakhstan is an order of magnitude (or maybe two) cheaper, more effective + indirect buns.” The result is that the buns will end when in Kazakhstan a coup occurs in the likeness of the Ukrainian one and there will be no flights for Russia there on its territory, it is always better - this is so for those who do not think about the future with a thought.
                  1. +1
                    11 January 2022 03: 40
                    good
                    It was especially relevant to read this argument after just a couple of days.
              2. 0
                3 January 2022 23: 02
                Quote: Dart2027
                I have not heard something about the question of lack of satellites in orbit somewhere.

                This is you in vain. There is a lot of shortage, from the weather forecast (we take data from other people's satellites, but they do not always fly where we are interested), and ending with "Liana".
                1. 0
                  4 January 2022 08: 12
                  And what about them - the deployment of both is going according to plan, the usual routine.
                  1. 0
                    4 January 2022 11: 16
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    going according to plan, the usual turnover.

                    Well, yes, well, yes ... Only plans are shifting to the right all the time. “Liana” was already promised a complete set in 2013, but something doesn’t grow together ... Flux, wherever it goes into a swing, everything is correct.
                    1. 0
                      4 January 2022 11: 31
                      Quote: region58
                      Liana was already promised a complete set in 2013, but something does not grow together ...
                      It was originally planned for the early 2000s. There was a problem with the development of the new Pion-NKS satellite, which always happens when a new product is supplied. Now it has been finished, and Lotuses have been mass-produced for a long time.
                      1. 0
                        4 January 2022 11: 36
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        planned by the early 2000s

                        Well? Isn't there a shortage of satellites? With reconnaissance and target designation all the way?
                        PS As with communication channels for drones, is everything normal? Do we overlap the entire "ball"?
                      2. -1
                        4 January 2022 12: 33
                        Quote: region58
                        With reconnaissance and target designation all the way?

                        There are ground stations and aviation at their borders, but we still have nothing to cover the entire ball, because the construction of CD carriers has just entered mass production.
                      3. 0
                        4 January 2022 18: 32
                        You have a strange logic: what was planned twenty years ago has not been done, and "we have nothing to cover the entire ball yet," that is, there is no target designation, and drones can only fly over their territory, because there is no connection somewhere over the Pacific Ocean, and they can easily block our access to meteorology, but everything is fine with us - there is no shortage of satellites. All is well, beautiful marquise (s) ...
                      4. 0
                        4 January 2022 18: 58
                        Quote: region58
                        and what was planned twenty years ago has not been done
                        Then you could only plan.
                        Quote: region58
                        that is, there is no target designation

                        For whom? ICBMs will fly over and there are no frigates in TO yet.
                        Quote: region58
                        and they can easily block our access to meteorology

                        Meteorological satellites have been launching their own for a long time, it will be necessary to add.
                        Quote: region58
                        drones can only fly over their territory, because somewhere over the Pacific Ocean

                        How do they get there? Our ocean-class UAVs have just begun to be built.
                      5. 0
                        4 January 2022 21: 18
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        For whom?

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        How do they get there?

                        Well then, it's okay. We don't need too much. And in which case we have hats.
                      6. -1
                        4 January 2022 21: 24
                        Quote: region58
                        And if something happens

                        The process is proceeding without any fuss and slogans "catch up and overtake".
                      7. 0
                        4 January 2022 21: 30
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        The process is proceeding without any fuss and slogans "catch up and overtake".

                        This is you to the point. The main thing is the process.
                      8. 0
                        4 January 2022 22: 36
                        Quote: region58
                        The main thing is the process.

                        The main thing is not to tear yourself up.
            2. 0
              3 January 2022 22: 55
              Quote: ja-ja-vw
              The concept itself was abandoned. She's wrong.

              At that time, the concept was in line with the times. Then - yes, they refused. But that was later.
        2. +2
          31 December 2021 20: 35
          Anya-the Second, how many years will they be "reengineering"?
        3. +1
          1 January 2022 02: 33
          the gray-haired boy is even the richest country in the world - the USA curtailed its Space Shuttle program and did not build anything like the An 225 because it was not necessary. Now it is not a problem to build such projects, it is a question of price and purpose. There is no purpose that would justify such a waste. Even airplanes like the An124 in the world now nafig have not fallen to anyone except the VTA of the USA and the Russian Federation.
          And no one flies to the moon for the same reason - nafig it is not necessary for us not the Americans - it makes no sense. And no one will fly to Mars until the suckers don’t cash in on the Mask, the state will not sponsor such a project - it also makes no sense. Trillions of dough can be spent much more efficiently on the development of human civilization on planet Earth - and this is well understood now by all countries with technological resource potential.
          1. -4
            1 January 2022 11: 39
            And no one flies to the moon on that
            To the moon?
            Doesn't fly? !!
            And where is this?
            In a parallel world?
            Whoever does not fly there - the Chinese delivered lunar soil not so long ago.
            And there is no doubt that the Chinese will walk on the moon.
            1. +1
              1 January 2022 16: 17
              I'm talking about the United States and the Russian Federation - for these space powers the Moon is a passed stage - there is nothing to do there, the show-offs that were limonitized during the space race are now of no interest to anyone. China, yes, he is now going all the way that the United States and the Russian Federation have traveled - and actively limonite show-off, but just as aimlessly. Maybe they will fly there - they will land - they will be like and dumped on Earth. What is the purpose of this moonlit walk? If you master the loot, then I agree - excellent.
              We (Roscosmos) also had a crazy idea to fly there and are now rushing around with no less crazy ideas around the moon, but one thing pleases me is that there are people with brains who push these ideas further into the table - because there are enough tasks for Roscosmos and current ones as for needs The Ministry of Defense and the national economy of the Russian Federation and spending resources on such nonsense as a flight to the moon is the height of idiocy.
              As for me, crazy ideas of useless exploration of the Moon and Mars should be implemented exclusively in cooperation with other countries, and the more participating countries will give dough and resources, the better - like the ISS.
              1. -2
                1 January 2022 21: 44
                Quote: Yarhann
                As for me, the crazy ideas of the useless exploration of the Moon and Mars should be implemented exclusively in cooperation with other countries, and the more participating countries will give dough and resources, the better - like the ISS

                No, everything is much simpler. In order to investigate them, you first need to create engines that will be able to transport goods weighing thousands of tons within a reasonable time frame. I'm not sure any of us will live to see this.
                1. +3
                  1 January 2022 21: 48
                  the problem is not in the size, but in expediency - why? Just imagine hypothetically well, they created engines, let's say they resurrected the space shuttle program and drove to the Moon, drove them back to Earth, knocked out grandmothers, pissed off several hundred lards of greenery - for what? That is, even if you set the goal of extracting some resources on the Moon, these are what resources should be that are not on Earth in the required quantities, the cost of which will be astronomical.
                  1. -2
                    1 January 2022 22: 42
                    Quote: Yarhann
                    pissed away several hundred lards of greenery - why

                    It is assumed that the costs will be orders of magnitude less, due to which the extraction of something can at least be justified.
                    1. +3
                      1 January 2022 22: 57
                      who assumes that it will be orders of magnitude less? even if we assume that a filling station will be put in orbit for some kind of Station-Luna shuttles, then such a project will still be astronomically expensive - purely for rides. And if we are talking about the extraction of a resource on the Moon, then this increases the price of such a program by orders of magnitude. Because on the moon it will be necessary to set up a base, to the base in addition to put a power plant, either atomic or thermal, to ensure the operation of the mechanisms that will extract the resource. If without a base on the Moon and without a power plant, then the shuttle should be a transport for the extracted resource, but this is nonsense - because the ore will have to be enriched on the spot - that is, either on the Moon or on a lunar shuttle - that is, the enrichment will be on the Moon, and this is water , energy and all sorts of reagents - that is, the Shuttle will be at least the size of a GOK.
                      In short, you can dream up as many options as you like how to extract the resource, but a huge amount of resources must be spent on the organization of enrichment facilities - both the structures themselves and the energy sources, process fluids, etc. Such a project is astronomically expensive and not one state on Earth can afford it, and what is the main goal? What is there on the moon that is not on earth?
                      1. -3
                        2 January 2022 06: 29
                        Quote: Yarhann
                        and what is the main goal? What is there on the moon that is not on earth?

                        The very fact that there is something is allowed, if there is nothing for which it is worth building a garden, then everything else is meaningless.
                      2. +2
                        2 January 2022 15: 01
                        as if the moon consists of a brow was known even after the missions of Apollo USA and the Moon of the USSR. Nothing that is on Earth in marketable quantities is not there - therefore, nothing needs to be allowed, everything is already known. And even theoretically, the satellite of the Earth cannot be fundamentally different from the Earth.
                        There is a program International Lunar Station (China RF + all those who wish), judging by the task, this is a mission to find a good place for the station - in short, to fill in a place on the Moon where there is water. That is, to stake out a place with the necessary resources in case of future colonization by anyone. And also geological exploration with the same purpose to stake out places with a high concentration of resources - the same titanium, for example. There is no talk about the extraction of something - the task of the mission is to stake out the territory.
                      3. -2
                        2 January 2022 16: 47
                        Quote: Yarhann
                        how the moon consists of a brow was known even after the missions of Apollo USA and the Moon of the USSR

                        Well, they have not researched everything, so everything is possible. The reserves, even on Earth, are not endless.
                      4. +2
                        2 January 2022 18: 37
                        The reserves are not endless, but on Earth it is not a problem to organize the processing of scrap and it works in full growth for iron, aluminum, copper, etc. As for rare earth metals (raw materials for microelectronics), even if there are large reserves in the territory of the Russian Federation, we do not have production (although they tried) because as a non-competitive product comes out, Chinese raw materials and other manufacturers are cheaper. And the elements that are not on Earth on the Moon, even theoretically, can not be, they are most likely not even in the Solar System - although the probability is certainly small.
                      5. -1
                        2 January 2022 19: 16
                        Quote: Yarhann
                        but on Earth it's not a problem to organize processing
                        No problem. But I repeat - this is a very distant prospect, when a lot will change a lot.
                        Quote: Yarhann
                        And the elements that are not on Earth on the Moon, even theoretically, cannot be, they are most likely not even in the Solar System

                        And here one can only guess. All our knowledge about the composition and origin of other planets is, by and large, theory, since you can't really experiment here.
                      6. +2
                        2 January 2022 20: 19
                        and here to guess - the moon is a satellite of the earth, its composition is identical, as well as most of the planets of the solar system. Fortune-telling is for astrologers, astronomy is a science.
                        Regarding that a lot will change, of course, it will change, but the main problems of humanity in the future are not in metals but in fresh water, food and energy - if to be logical. Therefore, it is the development of human civilization in quantitative terms that will require these resources most of all - all this is not on the Moon (except for ice). Moreover, this problem has been calculated until the end of the century by quite competent organizations such as the UN and the CIA, which can be trusted.
                        Regarding the Moon and its resources, there is not and cannot be anything commercially attractive to earthlings (except for water). Although I can be very mistaken, and there may be components from which high-energy rocket fuel can be made, and then the Moon can be used as a jump spaceport for shuttles to explore the same Mars.
                        Now the whole problem and the high cost of flights somewhere far away is that for such trips it is necessary to create a gas station in orbit, a jump cosmodrome, so to speak. That is, the future spacecraft for a flight to Mars will enter orbit with practically empty tanks and already in Earth orbit it will be fueled with fuel and provisions for a trip to Mars. Because this spacecraft will be home for earthlings on Mars - this is in case it is lowered to the surface. Although there is an option that a space station of the ISS type will be assembled in orbit and it will go into the orbit of Mars and there will be regularly sent parcels with fuel and provisions from the Earth's orbit), but it is infinitely expensive. Now, if on the moon to organize a jump cosmodrome and the production of rocket fuel, then yes, this is an interesting option.
                      7. -2
                        2 January 2022 21: 36
                        Quote: Yarhann
                        Fortune telling is to astrologers, astronomy is a science

                        Science is science, but too much there cannot be verified by experience.
                      8. +2
                        2 January 2022 21: 50
                        the poke method and naturalists is a long-passed stage. now on earth everything is being built according to calculations and no experience, only a delicate calculation and this is already 50-60 years since they began to introduce computers. In the USA and the USSR in particular, the rest were very backward in terms of computers. All are modeled now thanks to supercomputers. The question, of course, is about data and the trust of specialists, but this is a modern reality - everyone works this way - otherwise it is impossible.
                        All that modern mankind does is science - calculation, there is no experience, experience will be when something is realized. Now the experience of all generations of human existence in digital form will fit on one hard drive, Yes, the experience of previous generations is important to repeat the same mistakes and accelerate the progress of development. But the new is the new - here the experience does not play a role, but it is taken into account by default - this is logical.
                      9. -1
                        2 January 2022 22: 03
                        Quote: Yarhann
                        the poke method and naturalists is a long-passed stage. now on earth everything is built according to calculations and no experience, only a delicate calculation

                        Quite right, but they started with experiments, and on their basis they deduced patterns and created calculation methods.
                      10. +1
                        2 January 2022 22: 12
                        it is - now the accumulation and accounting of data is simple thanks to modern computers, a variety of software, a huge number of different sensors and measurement systems that are freely integrated. It's all great now, you can calculate anything - the question is who will pay for it and who needs it)
      4. -1
        1 January 2022 21: 30
        Dart2027. So it was. But these heirs, instead of cutting with a jewelry jigsaw, took a two-handed saw and gave it to the hands of non-craftsmen who finished it off. But the owner did not see, did not look after. But it was cheap and monetary. Sometimes it happens that the planet does not want to let go into the sky, then washed down to death.
        1. -2
          1 January 2022 21: 40
          Quote: zenion
          But these heirs, instead of cutting with a jewelry jigsaw, took a two-handed saw and gave it to the hands of non-craftsmen who finished it off.

          Or maybe the matter was that there was nothing to cut. At that time, both in our country and in the USA, a lot of money was spent on show-offs and Buran from the same series. Now the management has become smarter.
    2. 0
      1 January 2022 11: 14
      but supposedly "they didn't know how to make sausage"
      It is "supposedly"
      The current products made from cellulose and carrageenan with the addition of meat are only similar to sausages.
    3. -1
      1 January 2022 21: 21
      ivan2022. You haven't read all the way between the lines. He touched this Perseus. This reminds of Stirlitz. Stirlitz got into the car and told the driver - touch! The driver touched it. Stirlitz liked it. Exactly the same with Perseus. He touched someone, or something.
  6. +11
    31 December 2021 08: 24
    Has the carrier taken off?
    Already an achievement. The rocket is complex and not very technological. But it flies.
    As for the upper stage, this was its first flight. Naturally, the malfunctions are not desirable, but quite expected.
    Let's remember that 40 years ago, to bring the Voevoda to his senses, they first "burned" as many as 26 engines on the ground (at a total cost that is impossible by modern funding standards), and then the carrier itself was launched two dozen times.
    As a result, after eight unsuccessful launches (a factory defect was recognized), the product was put into series.
    So for the first flight of the accelerator, the situation, although not rosy, is quite standard working.
    1. +15
      31 December 2021 09: 00
      I completely agree with you, that is why there are tests. You just need to write the truth, it worked, great! It doesn’t work, so we have to work. Moreover, it is difficult to hide failures in space. Musk burns prototypes, doesn't hesitate.
      1. -1
        31 December 2021 10: 15
        Quote: ASAD
        Musk burns prototypes, doesn't hesitate.

        But he even declares an explosion when trying to launch a success, and we just start screaming that this is a disaster and everything is gone.
        1. +11
          31 December 2021 12: 24
          Quote: Dart2027
          Quote: ASAD
          Musk burns prototypes, doesn't hesitate.

          But he even declares an explosion when trying to launch a success, and we just start screaming that this is a disaster and everything is gone.

          He had no explosions when trying to launch.
          The explosions were carried out in full-scale tests, many times exceeding the operating parameters.
          1. -8
            31 December 2021 12: 33
            Quote: SovAr238A
            The explosions were about field tests

            What became known after the explosions.
            And, by the way, what is the point of testing with deliberately inoperative parameters?
            1. +4
              31 December 2021 20: 40
              so he did not keep silent and did not break away, like the Ministry of Defense and the Republic of Kazakhstan in this situation ...
              1. -3
                31 December 2021 21: 18
                Quote: Barge_watchman
                so he did not keep silent and did not break away,

                Quote: Dart2027
                What became known after the explosions.

                That is, if it exploded, then the layout.
                1. +3
                  2 January 2022 11: 04
                  Yes, the fact of the matter is that Musk first announced all the test parameters, and then openly did a debriefing, and called failures failures
                  1. -1
                    2 January 2022 11: 49
                    Quote: zlinn
                    Musk first announced all test parameters

                    That is, he said in advance that he was going to blow up? I don’t remember something like that.
                    1. +3
                      2 January 2022 12: 48
                      and there were not so many explosions, 3 prototypes of the Starship were originally going to burst (tests for overpressure in the tanks), they burst, though in the second test the tank cap tore off, and Musk said that it was a jamb and it shouldn't have been that way, but it should have pulled out the valve, which happened in the next tests, but the explosions during flight tests were not planned but were expected with a very high degree of probability, the first jump was a test of the flight control system, and it worked at 5, then the prototype would not land who seriously did not expect, he did not sit down, the second prototype could not turn on the engines after the coup and was blown up in the air so as not to crash onto the launch pad, the test was recognized as unsuccessful, the trait took off, tumbled and sat down, but something leaked in the fuel lines and it exploded, the test was recognized as successful, all tasks were completed, the landing legs were sent for revision, the lines were strengthened, the fourth jump was completely successful, more explosions during the test there have been no burns or burns yet, the next major test is the orbital launch of the entire BFR system, the landing of the spacecraft and the booster are not planned, the steps will be precisely flooded (they will try to get exactly to the planned point, but it was announced in advance that the regular operation of 30 raptors and separation of stages, and if after that the engines of the starship start up and it makes at least a suborbital flight, then it will hurt more, and if it goes into orbit ... it leaves it and the steps land at the given points, as it will be incredible luck to which the mask is diverted 30 percent if I'm not mistaken, so what to expect, Musk always tells in advance, and since everything happens live, then the shoals are immediately visible and he does not hush them up, Musk takes money not from ordinary inhabitants but from very serious dadeki and rich funds, those they are rarely bought for cheap PR, and cloudy excuses would rather damage the mask, and in general the ambition of the Starship project is so high that any to its implementation, it is forgivable and there is no point in hiding it, and vice versa, the announcement of the test program causes increased confidence that the mask actually needs
                      1. -3
                        2 January 2022 14: 16
                        Quote: zlinn
                        overpressure tests in tanks

                        Musk apparently does not know what are the strength calculations that they have been able to do for N years?

                        Quote: zlinn
                        however, during the second test, the tank cap tore off, and Musk said that it was a joint and it shouldn't have been that way

                        That welding is done automatically, and not on the knee, he also does not know?
                        Quote: zlinn
                        Musk takes money not from ordinary people, but from very serious dadeki and rich foundations

                        Simply put, an advertising project in the United States.
                      2. +3
                        2 January 2022 14: 58
                        Musk apparently does not know what are the strength calculations that they have been able to do for N years?

                        nevertheless, full-scale tests are carried out by everyone, and the wings of the finished aircraft are bent until they crack, and the cars are beaten against the walls, and all kinds of pieces of iron are stretched and compressed, the theory is usually confirmed by practice, not all of these tests show, but some, including masks, are yes

                        That welding is done automatically, and not on the knee, he also does not know?

                        friction welding is not a new technology, but it is young enough, and these steel grades have not previously been carried out in sufficient volumes to accurately calculate the technical process, however, it should be noted that all bursts occurred when the design strength was increased, but it seems to hint that the spaces even knew that do, but wanted to make sure once again, in addition, it will help with further certification in FAA and NASA, where you will still have to demonstrate maximum loads
                        And yes, Spaces is a private company and needs advertising, both to attract customers and investors, and this office is not traded on the stock exchange and it is difficult to attract investors with simple advertising videos and financial reports and round-the-clock broadcasting of everything that happens in Boca Chica is like this original, and as practice has shown, a very effective method for fundraising, and they accumulated 4 billion investments, but they apparently are not enough and Musk had to sell a certain amount of Tesla shares, and this, in turn, also affects investment stores, in general, it gets out as best it can, and so far it works.
                        But if Starship is implemented in full and with all the declared characteristics, then all other manufacturers of launch services will be very sour (but it's hard to believe in it)
                      3. -1
                        2 January 2022 16: 54
                        Quote: zlinn
                        and the wings of the finished aircraft are bent until they crack
                        Ready? And how do they then fly with cracked wings?
                        Quote: zlinn
                        and cars hit the walls
                        This is when they test how the passenger rescue system will behave. For a rocket, this is a bit irrelevant.
                        Quote: zlinn
                        friction welding technology is not new
                        It's not about technology, but about the culture of production. They cooked there without building special workshops.
                        Quote: zlinn
                        And yes Spaces is a private company

                        With the roof of the state. Do you really think that the investors there are stupid enough to give money to a company that claims its goal is to populate other planets?
                      4. +1
                        6 January 2022 12: 54
                        I remember an old anecdote about the "Japanese chainsaw" and the harsh Kolyma lumberjacks. When they alternately shoved the logs thicker and thicker into her, and ended up with a cardan from a Kamaz ... feel
    2. +8
      31 December 2021 11: 38
      Who can argue with that?
      LCI for that and LCI, in order to identify all the shortcomings and mistakes.
      It’s bad, after all. Infuriates the primitiveness of our propaganda. Going to the point of absurdity.
      Any paper project or plastic model is presented as a serial product, which has laid on the blades of all competitors, because there is no equivalent in the world.
      What happened in this particular case?
      Failure.
      Puncture.
      The task - the output of the PN to the GSO - not completed, the purpose of the launch not reached.
      How is this fact covered by the Russian official media?
      After vigorous shouts of "hurray" after the start - deathly silence. Within two days. How can you not want to admit failure, right? That is why Roskosmos froze, transferred after 2 days all the arrows to the RF Ministry of Defense - "The launch was military, not from Baikonur, not from the Eastern and not even from the Guiana space center, but from a military cosmodrome. The customer of the launch is the Ministry of Defense. All comments are from the military. departments ". This is how Dmitry Strugovets, the press secretary of the department, answered. And what to take with MO? If all the information that concerns him is highly secret?
      So the Russian has to track the real course of events according to the information of foreign media. It's good that at least NORAD gives reliable data.
      But is this really the case?
      1. -8
        31 December 2021 12: 52
        Quote: Cosm22
        After vigorous shouts of "hurray" after the start - deathly silence.

        During the launch, the rocket itself was tested, not the upper stage, so the "hurray" was quite logical - it worked fine.

        Congratulations the command of the Russian Space Forces, the combat crew of the Plesetsk cosmodrome, the management and staff of the Khrunichev Center, NPO Energomash, NPTSAP, TsENKI - with the successful launch of the heavy "Angara"!
        Come on, darling!
        Now we are waiting operation of the Perseus upper stage developed by RUK Energia.

        Perseus was supposed to go into orbit within a few hours, so the silence is also understandable - they were waiting for what would happen.
        Quote: Cosm22
        How can you not want to admit failure, right?

        Ask the Mask for whom each explosion is an achievement.
        1. +11
          31 December 2021 16: 11
          Nine hours is not two days. This is the first thing.
          Secondly, let it be known to you that there is such a thing as TMI. And the data on the failure of the second start of the remote control was immediately transmitted via telemetry. After which everything became clear: the RB would not leave the reference orbit. And the figure 36000 is already an unattainable dream. What else is there to wait? By the sea of ​​the weather?
          With Musk, each explosion really gives the most valuable information and brings the project closer to the final. For it is not full-fledged products that are run, but prototypes. Explain to you what it is? This is just a shell with engines, lines, a minimum calculated fuel reserve and the required minimum of telemetry equipment for taking readings. And MKSK launches its prototypes precisely so that they burst, explode and fall at the initial stage. For such a practical approach gives an order of magnitude more information than mathematical modeling or runs on the stand. By the way, do you have any idea what size the Starship test bench should be? And how much will this structure cost? And why the hell does Mask need it? If he went a different, more optimal, practical and cheaper way?
          And the last thing. Musk, unlike Roskosmos, does not hide dirty linen under the rug. Failures are not hushed up. And he stubbornly goes forward and does his job further. Because Falcon is already out of competition, and Starship is at the beginning of the starting path. But here, however, the FAA puts a spoke in the wheel.
          1. -8
            31 December 2021 17: 26
            Quote: Cosm22
            Nine hours is not two days. This is the first thing.

            Do you need to start shouting the guard at the first suspicion?
            Quote: Cosm22
            data on the failure of the second start of the remote control were immediately transmitted via telemetry.

            If the engine does not start immediately, this does not mean that it will not start later, too lazy to look, but there were precedents, and this unit is designed for nine starts.
            Quote: Cosm22
            With Musk, each explosion really gives the most valuable information and brings the project closer to the final. For it is not full-fledged products that are run, but prototypes.

            According to Musk himself, after the explosions.
            But "this is another thing."
            Quote: Cosm22
            If he went a different, more optimal, practical and cheaper way?

            And everyone else is so narrow-minded that for so many years they haven’t come up with such a simple thing, seriously?
            Quote: Cosm22
            And the last thing. Musk, unlike Roskosmos, does not hide dirty linen under the rug. Failures are not hushed up. And stubbornly
            is engaged in PR and advertising.
            Whether it is the case of the USSR in which "nothing fell" at all.
            1. +3
              31 December 2021 23: 17
              It is precisely because everyone else is so narrow-minded that they lag behind Musk.
              Precisely because at one time they did not think of the elementary things that Musk came to.
              That is why his F-9 now reigns in LEO and GSO, and Starship has every chance of surpassing this achievement.
              Because there are people who see farther than others, think better than others, understand the nature of things better than others.
              And that is why the state-owned Roscosmos of the Russian Federation will never even be on a par with Musk's private firm. Never.
              1. -4
                1 January 2022 09: 37
                Quote: Cosm22
                It is precisely because everyone else is so narrow-minded that they lag behind Musk.

                Yes, what kind of narrow-minded people worked in the space program of the USSR - from the 50s to the 90s, for 40 years they could not think of it.
                1. +1
                  2 January 2022 11: 13
                  and this happens all the time, even the obvious and lying on the surface solutions are not noticed by specialists for years until one of them manages to notice this and make a breakthrough
                  1. -6
                    2 January 2022 11: 48
                    Quote: zlinn
                    until one of them manages to notice it and make a breakthrough

                    And it also happens that someone just turns out to be a skillful PR man and trite hype.
                    1. +2
                      2 January 2022 12: 09
                      one thing does not interfere with the other, and even helps, and if a decent product follows a skillful hype, then this is called success
                      1. -4
                        2 January 2022 14: 19
                        Quote: zlinn
                        a worthy product follows, then this is called success

                        Like this one?
                        https://www.gazeta.ru/tech/2021/04/19/13564508/tesla_death.shtml
                      2. +2
                        2 January 2022 15: 18
                        what does it have to do with it? this is an autopilot, not a replacement for the driver, tksla has a very sophisticated assistant, but this is not an unmanned car, it never occurred to me to switch to a passenger seat and not drive a car at all, but I shot videos for fun a couple of times (not by the way and the passenger) as I sit and do not touch anything, but she drives herself, but I still followed the road and knew in advance that this was not an unmanned car, but simply very helpful in its management, and for Tesla these features began to be used by everyone laziness, our second car is a Kia Niro, and it also helps a lot in driving, and it has already been proven that cars equipped with all sorts of assistants get into accidents less often, and insurance for them is twice as cheap.
                        Yes, maybe I'm not objective, but I like Tesla so much that it's just a childish delight, but all other manufacturers also took the same path, so it's hard not to admit that Tesla revolutionized the automotive industry
                      3. -1
                        2 January 2022 16: 46
                        Quote: zlinn
                        what does it have to do with it?
                        So this is not another PR of Mask?
                        Quote: zlinn
                        it never once occurred to me to change to a passenger sedan
                        Read the article, there is also about it.
                      4. 0
                        2 January 2022 18: 08
                        The corporation itself has repeatedly warned its customers that FSD is not an autonomous driving system, and the driver must still pay attention to the road. The car monitors the driver's attention using a sensor located on the steering wheel.

                        that says it all, but the fact that this was the first time when no one was driving, in general, does not say anything about the tesla, in 99% of all previous accidents on the ground, someone was driving, and what? Yes, Musk is engaged in aggressive PR, but he should do it, but this advertisement affected me, like hundreds of others, but at the same time I like the product, it did not disappoint me, but on the contrary, delighted me, like many other Tesla clients and spacex
                      5. -2
                        2 January 2022 19: 13
                        Quote: zlinn
                        Yes, Musk is engaged in aggressive PR, but he should do it, but this advertisement affected me, like hundreds of others.

                        That is, when Musk first convinces the simpletons that he supposedly created an autopilot, and then it turns out that this is not quite what is commonly understood by this word, this is just an ordinary advertisement, and all that goes on for him is not very simple small difficulties But if we have something goes wrong or the statements turned out to be more optimistic than the results, is it a failure, a disaster, a lie, etc.?
                        One could give an analysis of the modern phenomenon, which is becoming increasingly pathological in nature. This is Russophobia of some Russian people ... Previously, they told us, and they really believed that in Russia they hate lawlessness, lack of freedom of the press, etc. etc., what exactly is the indisputable presence of all this in it that they like Europe ... And now what do we see? As Russia, seeking more freedom, asserts itself more and more, the dislike of these gentlemen only intensifies. They never hated previous institutions so much as they hate modern trends in social thought in Russia. As for Europe, as we see, no violations in the field of justice, morality, and even civilization have in the least reduced their disposition towards it ... In a word, in the phenomenon I am talking about, there can be no question of principles as such only instincts ...
                        Fedor Ivanovich Tyutchev
        2. +8
          31 December 2021 20: 27
          Quote: Dart2027
          During the launch, the rocket itself was tested, not the upper stage, so the "hurray" was quite logical - it worked fine.

          Yes, just the same, you also say that the regular work of the fire brigade and the cleaning lady was tested.
          Your comment resembles the comments of the Syrian Ministry of Defense - Israeli Air Force missiles were shot down - the targets of the attack suffered serious damage.

          Quote: Dart2027
          Perseus was supposed to go into orbit within a few hours, so the silence is also understandable - they were waiting for what would happen.

          Like he will come by himself, suddenly he is lucky, or he will be forgotten, they will not ask
          Quote: Dart2027
          Ask the Mask for whom each explosion is an achievement.


          1. -9
            31 December 2021 21: 18
            Quote: karish
            Yes, just the same, you also say that the regular work of the fire brigade and the cleaning lady was tested.

            That is, there is nothing to argue.
      2. +2
        31 December 2021 12: 57
        [quote] [What happened in this particular case?
        Failure.
        Puncture.
        The task - the output of the PN to the GSO - has not been completed, the launch goal has not been achieved. / Quote]. … Good day ! But remember the very first launch of RN Energia. The launch also took place, only the payload did not get into orbit ... Only it was not a model, but some kind of military satellite or a station like ... And the next one with Buran was more successful ..)
    3. 0
      1 January 2022 21: 37
      U-58. It is incorrect to write about forty years ago. You know very well that nothing but galoshes worked, but Africa was happy. Then it was necessary to choose between galoshes, rockets, or turn the country upside down. The country was turned over. I can only say that in the 60s I worked at a plant that made such products and it was successful the first time, because it was assembled by a specialist, Turner. Then the military customer was not joking, the threat was serious. The workers were specialists with brains, not those who called themselves specialists.
      1. 0
        2 January 2022 08: 37
        Why do you recognize the comparison as incorrect?
        I started working in the industry 38 years ago. It (the industry), for all its innovative striving forward, is rather conservative in something. And this conservatism is justified in many cases, no matter how much it hates me personally.
        The development of new objects is carried out according to the established old schemes. But with the only significant difference that financing under the "new conditions" of terry capitalism does not allow for tens of necessary tests. Everything is shrinking and trimming. Good or bad is not for us to judge.
        The specialists are no longer "the same", although among them there are also clever people and nuggets. So not everything is lost in our kingdom.
        And even with a general deterioration of everything and everyone, incl. metallurgy and electronics (which does not exist at all in the light of the requirements of the day), we can both invent and do.
        If we fantasize about increasing funding by at least 50%, then there will be no obstacles on our way at all.
        So the problems are not rooted in the personalities of the Chief Skeet, but in the lower levels of the system: money, industrial personnel, muddy schemes for withdrawing funds into the personal pockets of some of them, the problems of suppliers, import substitution in the light of the fact that it has been announced, but it is far from always possible ...
  7. +5
    31 December 2021 10: 12
    Roskosmos has already officially announced that three subsequent launches of Angara-A5 will be with Briz-M upper stages. That is, "Perseus" is still being put on the back burner.
    1. +2
      31 December 2021 12: 23
      Yes it is.
      True, the Ministry of Defense plans to launch three launches in 2022, of which only 2 will be from the A-5 LV, one will be light.
      But RB for the A-5 is "Breeze-m".
      So what kind of groundwork "Perseus" has for the future is known only to "Perseus".
    2. -5
      31 December 2021 19: 11
      Probably because on the Hangar 5, the real payload will be launched, and Breeze M will be installed.
  8. +5
    31 December 2021 10: 22
    Lucky failure

    As an astronautics lover, I wish that in the future there was only GOOD LUCK! good
  9. -5
    31 December 2021 11: 33
    Roscosmos enterprises will find the reasons for the failure and improve the new upper stage, after which it will be able to fully solve its problems. Thus, the recent failure will provide a known benefit and contribute to further success - although for this the developers of "Perseus" will have to put in some effort.
    In general, It is very good that we are still feeling bad!

    Are we back in kavna?
  10. +4
    31 December 2021 12: 43
    Something goes wrong with the upper stages (RB). The Breeze had constant problems, now the new Perseus starts the same thing ... fool I do not "croak", but: "Maybe change something in the conservatory ?!" hi
    1. -7
      31 December 2021 19: 13
      Or maybe the developers and diagnosticians of the software for the upper stages can be checked.
    2. +6
      31 December 2021 20: 30
      Quote: senima56
      Something goes wrong with the upper stages (RB). "Breeze" had constant problems, now the new "Perseus" starts the same thing ... I do not "croak", but: "Maybe something should be changed in the conservatory ?!"

      because the booster blocks are just an addition to the old Soviet missiles - the old Soviet one works, but the new Rogozinskoe one - alas.
      1. 0
        1 January 2022 21: 48
        It's simple and I was the first to think of this. Until they write, at least somewhere that there are no analogues, it will not fly.
  11. +1
    31 December 2021 18: 39
    Quote: ASAD
    Musk burns prototypes, doesn't hesitate.

    this is how he does it more than once every ten years, and this is of course a normal design workflow
  12. -1
    31 December 2021 21: 04
    Quote: Ingvar 72
    Do you know for what reasons the Buran program was canceled?

    My opinion. Buran is the answer to the American shuttles, and those are to reduce the cost of launching into space. So in the shuttles only the tank was written off, everything went back to work. We wrote off the entire Energia rocket, to a bunch of engines. hi Happy New Year!
    1. -2
      31 December 2021 21: 39
      Quote: fa2998
      We wrote off the entire Energia rocket, to a bunch of engines.

      What about them? belay
      the design is similar, the launch vehicle and the upper stages are disposable, or I don’t know something?
      And yes. of course happy! drinks
      PS
      1. +4
        1 January 2022 13: 53
        The design is similar, but otherwise as fa2998 wrote.
        At the Shuttle, the cruise engines are on the shuttle itself and are used many times, the orange stage is only a fuel tank and only it is disposable. The side boosters were fished out and used again.
        At Buran, it was not possible to place the engines on the shuttle, they stand on the central stage and, accordingly, are consumed together with disposable side accelerators.
      2. -2
        3 January 2022 16: 25
        For those who do not know - the side turbojet engines of the Shuttles were reusable but even that didn't make the launch cheap.
        1. -3
          3 January 2022 22: 46
          Quote: Vadim237
          For those who do not know - the side turbojet engines of the Shuttles were reusable

          Already chewed on the topic. Vadik. I am not a know-it-all, and I have not argued otherwise. wink
    2. +3
      1 January 2022 02: 47
      you will inquire about the reason for the closure of the space shuttle program - there was still a purely financial component - there was a problem - the launches were constantly growing in price, the extreme launches were simply astronomical in price, and smart people at NASA decided that it was more profitable to give the Russians loot for the delivery of goods and passengers to the ISS. This saved hundreds of NASA greens. I think NASA management has been drinking and hanging out in Vegas for bonuses for a month since they shut down this beautiful Cold War thing.
      1. 0
        15 January 2022 22: 12
        Quote: Yarhann
        you will inquire about the reason for the closure of the space shuttle program - there was still a purely financial component - there was a problem - the launches were constantly growing in price, the extreme launches were simply astronomical in price, and smart people at NASA decided that it was more profitable to give the Russians loot for the delivery of goods and passengers to the ISS. This saved hundreds of NASA greens. I think NASA management has been drinking and hanging out in Vegas for bonuses for a month since they shut down this beautiful Cold War thing.

        You lie, although, perhaps, perhaps out of ignorance. And if the Russians would not carry the Americans? The Space Shuttle is a decent piece of shit, hastily put together in a blind American quest to finally overtake the USSR. Poorly conceived, and yes, an uneconomical non-rational design for the only way to get into orbit. Do you by any chance belong to the flat-earthers who believe in the flight of Americans to the moon? Simply, the rejection of shuttles because of the high cost, this is the usual political chatter. Is there any way to explain why they were rejected? And like stupid prices rose - not an argument at all, it's just an excuse.
        The representative of the United States will shake a test tube with white powder and say that there are chemical weapons in Iraq, and everyone believes him, like you. They bombed Iraq, but there are no chemical weapons. Where is the chemistry??? We were wrong...
        And in everything else, the Americans must be trusted, they only tell the truth, always only the naked truth ... Take off your rose-colored glasses, this is a deceitful, vile country where the ability to lie is considered the best human quality.
        1. 0
          15 January 2022 23: 20
          but yes, Olezhka knows better from the sofa how things are at NASA))) ATP neighing) walk more)))
    3. 0
      18 January 2022 22: 45
      Quote: fa2998
      Quote: Ingvar 72
      Do you know for what reasons the Buran program was canceled?

      My opinion. Buran is the answer to the American shuttles, and those are to reduce the cost of launching into space. So in the shuttles only the tank was written off, everything went back to work. We wrote off the entire Energia rocket, to a bunch of engines. hi Happy New Year!

      The plans included the reusability of Energy nodes, it’s just that the liberals managed to destroy the USSR. In China, they would have been shot at the wall a long time ago. Thanks to reusability and American technology, the shuttles have brought the United States to the absolute first place in terms of corpses in space. And so the shuttles were written off long before the end of the estimated service life, because there would have been much more corpses. Launching a manned spacecraft into space on powder kegs can only be complete [censorship], or in the end, desperate politicians. And they had to hurry, because until 1981 not a single American was in space. And finally, it happened, and certainly much more than what the USSR had, and always with pomp and flags ... Politicians glorify the dubious successes of the United States in space, squeal with saliva on their lips, how beautiful America is ... And it gnaws at me the question is, if the shuttles had engines with generator gas afterburning, then why did they get so excited about the NK-33 that they began to buy them from Russia, and why did they buy a license for similar engines? They kind of had it already, with afterburning, on the shuttles? Why buy a license and fight for decades trying to repeat what was bought from Russia with a full set of documentation? Vedt shuttles already have this, supposedly purely American!
      1. -1
        19 January 2022 17: 38
        Quote: Bratkov Oleg
        The plans included the reusability of Energy nodes, it’s just that the liberals managed to destroy the USSR.

        Plant "Energy"? Yes, Musk would lose his sleep! He plants his pencil cases with accidents, and then the Russians plant a super-heavy rocket, go crazy! wassat
  13. +3
    1 January 2022 05: 30
    There were problems with this launch from the very beginning, possibly due to the results of the RB diagnostics. I really don't want to think that in the end the launch was carried out with the help of a sledgehammer and someone's mother. It is alarming that the two years of testing before the launch and the result are not consistent. In this story, as in the history of the launch of the module to the ISS, however, like others, there are common features. Everything turns out at random. We will wave a censer, and then let the Lord answer.
  14. +1
    1 January 2022 08: 16
    Read Chertok "Rockets and People", how difficult it was to master the "seven"! how many accidents! It's a natural process of mastering a new technique, and things will get better ... over time.
    1. 0
      2 January 2022 07: 37
      Wrong times and people. Only Musk is working on Starship like that right now. All the rest prefer to shoot from the start and prepare it over again. We have a lot of launch sites and are very expensive. Perseus should have worked, the launch was needed to verify the declared characteristics, tk. the unit was launched not new, but its modification for the Angara. A lot of money was allocated for this work. It was supposed to provide a 30% increase in the delivered cargo to the state surveyor. As a result, there is zero data on the RB, which is important for the future. The questions just got bigger.
  15. +1
    1 January 2022 14: 19
    Lucky failure

    This is from the series - "negative economic growth". ©
  16. +1
    1 January 2022 20: 34
    Ndya. The fact that Angara has worked normally is already a plus.
    The fact that the overclocker has not fulfilled its function?
    Well Duc he's a new type. Although built on past designs. Weeds and faults in a complex technique are always corrected by a series of starts and exploitation.
    But given the pace of release, solving the problems will take a long time.
    In general, space is moving away faster and faster.
    To understand this truth, just open the wiki and look at the launch statistics!
    In the 70s and 80s, the Union launched almost a thousand spacecraft over a decade with an accident rate of 1.3%
    So the probability of finishing the upper stage in the nearest future does not shine.
  17. 0
    15 January 2022 21: 48
    Quote: Dart2027
    Quote: Bratkov Oleg
    Gorbachev visited Baikonur

    And in the US, who visited a similar pepelats?
    Was he also at the meeting of chief designers?

    A similar pepelats in the US was outright crap, somehow sloppy. Only complete morons, and, well, even the Americans, use powder kegs to withdraw manned ships. Russia and the USSR, for example, have never used powder kegs for the withdrawal of manned ships, only a one-time withdrawal of satellites for ICBMs on duty.
    So, two powder kegs on the sides of the shuttle gave such strong vibrations that the ships literally fell apart. The thermal protection constantly fell off, and the video of what the astronauts in the Unions look like, and the astronauts in the shuttles, during takeoff, still need to be looked for, a secret topic. Americans are shaking like on a shaker, and the layman would immediately wonder if the US type is the best, why are they shaking so much there!? Even a completely illiterate individual can guess that shaking is bad.
    And there they were shaking, shaking, then bam, and the Challenger. The powder keg burned out, and the hydrogen tank was set on fire. Then bam! Columbia... The heat-shielding tiles fell off from the shaking, and burned out in fig. And the Americans scratched their heads, but the shuttles cannot fly off their resource in any way, a maximum of half of the declared, if not less, and in the scrap. And such a super duper great country for 10 convulsive years was left without finally any means to get into orbit, and the Russians had to pay and pay to be taken to the ISS. And according to the initial conditions and terms of reference, the shuttles had to fly until now.
  18. 0
    9 February 2022 23: 33
    Nothing, everything will work out with this accelerating unit, well, the first one is lumpy, but after all, in the process of creating the engine during testing at the last stages, everything was fine. After all, critics and you, not everything is always normal, even in bed with your wife ..
  19. 0
    12 February 2022 22: 49
    Quote: Dart2027
    ... As it was further unknown.

    How not known? Liberals began to destroy everything that posed a threat to the US economy. How else did Russia itself not break up into several states ...