Military Review

Automatic rifles: bullpup versus normal layout

110

There is a huge number of small arms weapons of various types and purposes, various calibers, layout diagrams and technical solutions. Sometimes, both between gun lovers and between professionals who use it in their work, fierce disputes arise about the advantages and disadvantages of one or another solution.


For example, there is still debate about the advantages / disadvantages of intermediate cartridges of 5,45 mm and 7,62 mm, and it is unlikely that even the appearance of promising cartridges of an even more "intermediate" caliber of 6,5-6,8 mm will stop them.

But today we're going to talk about another source of controversy in the weapons community - the choice of a normal firearms layout or a bullpup layout.

Recall that in the normal layout the trigger is located behind the magazine with cartridges, and in the bullpup - the trigger is located in front of the magazine with cartridges.

The bullpup scheme appeared much later than the normal layout scheme. For the first time, the bullpup weapon was introduced in 1901 in Great Britain - it was an experienced Thorneycroft cavalry carbine, which did not interest the British military.


Thorneycroft's cavalry carbine. Image en.wikipedia.org

The PzB M.SS.41 anti-tank gun of 7,92 × 94 mm caliber, developed by Czech specialists in 1940-1941, which, in an amount of several thousand copies, entered service with the fascist Germany. In fact, this is a classic "anti-material" rifle with a telescopic sight, which, as such, was most often used (its characteristics are quite relevant now).

At the time of the appearance of the first serial weapon made in the bullpup layout, small arms created according to the normal scheme had long been used on the battlefields and were produced in huge series.

Advantages and disadvantages


Compared to the normal layout, the bullpup option has both advantages and disadvantages.

The advantages, of course, include a general reduction in the length of the weapon: on average, it can be about 15–20 cm. Such a decrease in length is especially noticeable when operating indoors or in wooded areas, where “long” weapons are extremely inconvenient to use.

With the same length with a weapon of a normal layout, a weapon created according to the "bullpup" scheme will have a longer barrel length, and, accordingly, a greater bullet energy and firing accuracy.

It is more convenient to shoot from the "bullpup" from behind an obstacle - when reloading, you do not need to move your hand over the obstacle to replace the magazine.

The shift in the center of gravity towards the butt leads to a decrease in the barrel toss when firing. However, the change in the center of gravity towards the butt is sometimes attributed to disadvantages - it is believed that although the toss of the barrel becomes less, it is more difficult to control it, while it is possible that this is a factor of habit.

The author has never fired from a weapon created according to the "bullpup" layout, so there is no personal opinion about the comfort of shooting from such a weapon, but in terms of carrying, holding and aiming, the "bullpup" seemed much more convenient.

The disadvantages of "bullpup" primarily include the release of shells and powder gases near the shooter's face, this is especially true for left-handed people - however, this is solved by changing the scheme of ejection of shells downward or forward.

Another drawback is the inconvenience of using large-capacity magazines and replacing magazines when shooting while prone.

Let's put it this way: how often are large-capacity magazines used on assault rifles / assault rifles?

The answer will be - extremely rare. And “inconvenient” does not mean impossible.

As for the inconvenience of replacing the magazine in the prone position, the answer here is more likely to lie in the development of skills - how many ways are there to cocking an AK bolt that does not have a double-sided handle, which have been developed over the years of operation of this weapon?

And the inconvenience of replacing the magazine when shooting while prone is fully compensated by the great convenience of replacing it when shooting from behind an obstacle.

Such imaginary drawbacks as a shorter aiming line and a lower trigger sensitivity, less convenience in twitching the shutter can be solved, respectively, by using optical / collimator sights and by optimizing the design.

Experimental


During the second half of the XNUMXth century, many experimental machines in the bullpup arrangement were presented.

In 1946, an experimental machine gun TKB-408 designed by G.A. was tested in the USSR. Korobov chambered for 7,62x39 mm, made in a bullpup layout.


Automatic Korobov TKB-408

In the mid-60s of the XX century, the designer Nikolai Afanasyev in the bullpup layout developed the TKB-011 assault rifle of 7,62x39 mm caliber.


Afanasyev's TKB-011 assault rifle. Image wikipedia.org

A little earlier, in 1962, G.A. Korobov developed an ultimatum "bullpup" TKB-022, in which there is simply nowhere to move the store further back.

It can be assumed that the TKB-22 with its phenomenal compactness and "nimbleness" could become an ideal weapon for the crews of armored vehicles.


Automatic Korobov TKB-022. Image wikipedia.org

In 1984, within the framework of the Abakan ROC, the designer I.Ya. Stechkin developed the TKB-0146 assault rifle chambered for 5,45x39 mm, which took second place, behind only the Nikonov AN-94 assault rifle.


Stechkin assault rifle TKB-0146. Image wikipedia.org

In 1993, the Tula TsKIB SOO developed the OTs-14 "Groza" grenade launcher for 7,62x39 / 9x39 mm cartridges and 40-mm VOG-25 / VOG-25P grenades, which was 70% unified with the AKS74U assault rifle.

"Groza" was produced in small quantities, managed to fight during the war in Chechnya, and even exported to the United States, the Czech Republic, Croatia and France (in small quantities).


OTs-14 "Thunderstorm"

In a concept similar to the "Groza" in the early 90s of the XX century, the A91 assault rifle was developed at the KBP State Unitary Enterprise, in fact, also a rifle-grenade launcher complex, in which the grenade launcher is structurally combined with the assault rifle.

The A-91 assault rifle was originally developed as a bullpup (and not as a reworking of the Kalashnikov assault rifle), so it is devoid of many of the drawbacks inherent in bullpup, for example, the sleeves do not fly out in front of the shooter, but are retracted forward, being thrown out next to the handle.


5,56A-91 assault rifle in NATO caliber 5,56x45 mm. Image wikipedia.org

A fairly large number of projects of small arms in the bullpup layout were developed in Western countries.

For example, one of the promising rifles, created under the American program SPIW (Special Purpose Individual Weapon - individual special-purpose weapons), was developed in a bullpup layout. The Springfield SPIW rifle was supposed to fire high-speed swept bullets. The capacity of her magazine was 60 rounds. A three-shot 40 mm grenade launcher was integrated into the design.


Experienced rifle Springfield SPIW. Image en.wikipedia.org

Another experienced "bullpup" that did not make it into the series was the Steyr ACR rifle, developed in the late 80s of the XX century as part of the American program of the same name ACR (advanced combat rifle).


Experienced rifle Steyr ACR. Image en.wikipedia.org

And finally, one cannot fail to recall the German Heckler-Koch G11 rifle for caseless 4,7x33 mm ammunition, which was offered both to the German armed forces (AF) and participated in the ACR program. The magazine in the G-11 rifle was located on top, with most of it located in the front of the rifle, nevertheless, the supply of cartridges was carried out behind the handle and trigger, which makes the Heckler-Koch G11 a bullpup.

Automatic rifles: bullpup versus normal layout
Heckler-Koch G11. Image wikipedia.org

In service


It would seem that small arms of a normal layout scheme unconditionally reign supreme, the leading armies of the world, the US and USSR / Russian armies, all the time chose weapons of the traditional layout scheme, respectively, the M-16 / M-4 series rifles and various modifications of Kalashnikov assault rifles. Nevertheless, many countries of the world, including those who are quite intensively at war, are armed with small arms created in the bullpup arrangement.

Most of the Chinese small arms are licensed and unlicensed copies, modifications and alterations of small arms developed by other countries.

At the same time, in the mid-90s of the XX century, a light automatic rifle Type-95 (QBZ-95) was adopted by the PRC for a new Chinese intermediate cartridge of 5,8 × 42 mm caliber. How good the Type-95 rifle is is an open question. Nevertheless, it is used not only by the armed forces of China, but special units of Cambodia and Pakistan, the armed forces of Myanmar, Sri Lanka and Sudan.


Chinese light automatic rifle Type-95 (QBZ-95). Image wikipedia.org

In the French armed forces, the Bullpup FAMAS assault rifle has been in service since 1977 and has gone through a huge number of colonial conflicts, in which the French Armed Forces and the Foreign Legion participated. Nevertheless, despite the long and relatively successful operation of the FAMAS assault rifles, the French army is switching to the German HK416F rifle of the classic layout.


FAMAS assault rifle. Image wikipedia.org

The British Armed Forces are still sadder.

Their L85A1 assault rifle, also a bullpup assault rifle, is renowned for its disgusting performance. However, this is not a problem of the bullpup layout as such, but rather of the developers of the L85A1 rifle.

In 2000, the L85A1 rifle was modified by the specialists of the German company Heckler & Koch to the L85A2 variant, which significantly increased its operational characteristics.


British assault rifle L85A1. Image wikipedia.org

Much more interesting is the choice of Israel - one of the most belligerent countries in the world. During its existence, the Israeli Armed Forces have used various types of small arms.

One of the most interesting samples can be considered the Galil assault rifles (Galil), created on the basis of the Finnish Valmet Rk 62 assault rifle, which, in turn, was created on the basis of the Kalashnikov assault rifle. Also, the Israelis used American M-16 and M-4 rifles.

However, then the Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) company developed a new TAR-21 Tavor assault rifle, made in the bullpup layout, which has been adopted by the Israeli Armed Forces since 2001. Given that Israel is actually in a state of continuous war and has the ability to quickly test the weapons used in real combat conditions, there is no reason to doubt the validity of the choice of their armed forces.


TAR-21 Tavor assault rifle. Image wikipedia.org

On the basis of the TAR-21, the IWI X95 modular assault rifle has been developed.

Since 2013, the Russian special operations forces have adopted the ADS rifle complex (two-medium special assault rifle), the design of which is based on the aforementioned A91 assault rifle and includes the assault rifle itself and an integrated 40 mm grenade launcher. The machine gun can fire both conventional cartridges of 5,45x39 mm caliber, and special cartridges designed for firing under water.

It can be assumed that this is one of the most perfect bullpups of his time.


Shooting complex ADS. Image wikipedia.org

It is worth mentioning two more of the most striking representatives of the bullpup layout.

The Austrian army is armed with the Steyr AUG rifle, developed in 1977. For its time, this rifle looked extremely futuristic (and even now it looks quite modern), and often for many, this particular rifle is primarily associated with the bullpup layout.

The Steyr AUG rifle is used not only in Austria, but also in the armed forces of Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, Uruguay, special forces of the USA, Great Britain, Germany, Poland, Brazil, Croatia and many other countries.


Rifle Steyr AUG. Image wikipedia.org

In 2001, the Belgian company FN Herstal developed the FN2000 automatic rifle, in which all the disadvantages of previous generations of bullpup were taken into account as much as possible. For example, the cartridge cases in the FN2000 are ejected forward - they fly out almost at the muzzle. The control of the FN2000 rifle is completely two-sided, equally convenient for right-handers and left-handers.

The FN2000 rifle is used by special operations forces in a number of countries - Belgium, Chile, Croatia, India, Pakistan, Poland. A fairly large number of FN2000 rifles were purchased by Slovenia and Saudi Arabia.


Automatic rifle FN2000. Image wikipedia.org

Upcoming prospects


At the moment, US armed forces are implementing the NGSW program, which includes the creation of a new generation squad rifle NGSW-R (Next Generation Squad Weapon Rifle), designed to replace the M-4 rifle, and a new generation automatic rifle squad NGSW-AR (Next Generation Squad Weapon Automatic Rifle), designed to replace the M249 machine gun.

One of the samples that reached the final of the NGSW program is the prototype of the RM277 rifle of the General Dynamics-OTS-Beretta group of companies, made in the bullpup layout.


Rifle prototypes RM277. Image by beretta.com


RM277 Rifle Promotional Spot

According to the author, given the conservatism of the American military, the Sig Sauer company has the greatest chances of winning the NGSW program, with its rifle and cartridge of the classic layout, if the NGSW program is generally recognized as successful, and does not repeat the fate of other American promising small arms programs. such as SALVO, SPIV, ACR or OICW, but who knows ...

In the event of victory of the RM277 family rifles in the NGSW program and their adoption by the US Army, the bullpup weapon will be in service with one of the largest and most belligerent armies in the world.

Conclusions


There is no doubt that machine guns and rifles of the normal layout are currently leading in the overall standings. At the same time, the leadership of the normal layout is not unconditional.

Small arms in the bullpup layout have also been actively used and are being used, moreover, by very advanced militarily countries.

In fact, often on the way of small arms in a bullpup arrangement, not only and not so much their real or perceived shortcomings can arise, but also a certain conservatism inherent in any bureaucratic structures, including the largest and most powerful armed forces on the planet.

Improvement of technologies and construction materials in combination with the use of modern layout diagrams will eliminate the drawbacks of bullpup. The need to conduct a maneuverable battle in a confined space requires a reduction in the total length of the weapon while maintaining a sufficient barrel length - a folding butt will not help here, because the weapon must be compact in the unfolded combat state.

The length of the weapon is especially relevant in connection with the emerging trend of using silencers on automatic weapons in combination with powerful supersonic cartridges.

Taking into account the above, there is no doubt that the bullpup layout will be in demand in the development of promising small arms (including new generation machine guns / rifles), which will take its rightful place in the armed forces of the leading countries of the world.
Author:
110 comments
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  1. ssergey1978
    ssergey1978 29 December 2021 18: 23
    +5
    You quickly get used to all those weapons, and from 7.62 it is calmer
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 30 December 2021 03: 49
      +3
      anti-tank rifle PzB M.SS.41





      The disadvantages of "bullpup" primarily include the release of shells and powder gases near the shooter's face, this is especially true for left-handed people - however, this is solved by changing the scheme of ejection of shells downward or forward.
      There is such an automatic machine, or rather a self-loading, but this is hardly important: Kel-Tec RFB


    2. yehat2
      yehat2 11 March 2022 16: 22
      -2
      It seems to me that caliber 7.62 is now only suitable for well-trained soldiers, maybe even special forces. In mountain and forest conditions, you can squeeze out unique advantages from it.
      And for ordinary conscripts who barely went through training better than 5.45
      I myself can only shoot from a rifle and drown for a cartridge of 9,3 × 64 mm 7N33))) SVDK rules!
  2. SaLaR
    SaLaR 29 December 2021 18: 25
    0
    The classics are imperishable ... but the way for the young ... soldier
  3. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 29 December 2021 18: 28
    +4
    It is more convenient to shoot from the "bullpup" from behind an obstacle - when reloading, you do not need to move your hand over the obstacle to replace the magazine.
    I didn’t read it further - there’s no need. Immediately I remembered the Soviet cartoon from the Krokodil magazine (the great seers worked there)), about the coach proudly showing his pet football player, who kicks and heads two balls at the same time. They say innovative training, creativity in the modern. And in Russian - nonsense and delirium. Ugh...
    1. Ramon Mercader
      Ramon Mercader 29 December 2021 19: 50
      +24
      Mikhail, not in the eyebrow, but in the eye, at the same place I heroically overcame a similar desire (however, further down the text I had to do this more than once). I agree.
      Now according to the article - the shift of the center of gravity to the butt does not decrease, but on the contrary, increases the toss of the weapon, especially in the auto-fire mode. Changing the store behind the obstacle is just an enchanting game (the store always remains on the shooter's side).
      Changing the store is much more convenient and faster with the classic layout.
      In general, this is a matter of taste, but as for me, the classics are many times more convenient and practical (although a person is not a cockroach - he gets used to everything).
      Bull Bap has 2 advantages:
      1. Longer barrel with shorter weapon length.
      2. The presence of a large enough free space in front of the trigger guard, which makes it possible to make "thunderstorm" crafts. Although, as for me, this advantage has not yet been fully disclosed, as they say - options are possible.

      I didn't like the article - it's difficult (I had to force myself to finish reading); controversial; frankly wrong in places.
      1. English tarantas
        English tarantas 30 December 2021 10: 18
        +3
        Bull Bap has 2 advantages:
        1. Longer barrel with shorter weapon length.
        2. The presence of a large enough free space in front of the trigger guard, which makes it possible to make "thunderstorm" crafts. Although, as for me, this advantage has not yet been fully disclosed, as they say - options are possible.

        1. It is solved not by lengthening, but by thickening the barrel, and what is the point if the average soldier cannot physically realize those barrels that are already in the classics.
        2. Well, in general, yes, two guns in one are still promising, we are waiting for when they figure out how to make it easy. But so far, the automatic-grenade launcher itself or some other complex is a controversial thing. From the same grenade launcher you have to shoot less often, but its mass is added to the mass of the machine gun in the hands constantly, just as constantly when firing from a machine gun, etc. Vaughn Americans often use the m320 alone.
        So it turns out that all the pluses are at least controversial, but the inconveniences are obvious, no matter how much they tried to replay the classics, they still didn’t work.
        1. yehat2
          yehat2 11 March 2022 16: 27
          -2
          but isn’t the issue being solved with grenades? the grenade launcher itself does not need to be fixed! although it seems to me that the issue should be resolved differently - making mixed launch rocket grenades (small squib + rocket) and guides is much easier.
      2. Eule
        Eule 9 January 2022 18: 21
        +1
        A weapon slightly shorter by 15-20 cm greatly increases the convenience of working with it in technology - landing, disembarking, and simply if you have to shoot on the go. And since there are no purely infantry units in the world, and soldiers ride in armored personnel carriers or in the bodies of trucks, this is important.
        In addition to the "toss", which the bullpup supposedly has more, there is such a parameter as the moment of inertia relative to the butt. You can use the popular word "reversibility". This parameter is measured by finding the center of gravity, weight of the weapon and the distance from the CG to the butt plate. Now a surprise - if the moment of inertia is small, then it is easier to shoot from the hands, the weapon "dangles" less.
        Another option is to greatly increase the moment of inertia, like in sports rifles or AK74 with a grenade launcher. Many have noticed an increase in the accuracy of fire in the presence of a grenade launcher. But the increased weight of the weapon is not always pleasant ... after a day of wading through the jungle ...
        I didn’t have a chance to shoot a lot from the AUG (Australian), but the impressions were only good. It is more applied than the AK, and the ring sight certainly seems less accurate ... but only it seems. The eye aligns the target very well in the middle. Yes, there are fears that it will break, if you fall on it, you can rather break bones about the AK. But in that climate, a fall is more likely to threaten with drowning or leeches than with a breakdown of the machine.
        1. Ramon Mercader
          Ramon Mercader 9 January 2022 21: 50
          0
          1. Technique - a folding stock shortens the overall length of the weapon by a comparable amount.
          2. Reversibility: there is such a moment, but ... When transferring fire more than 20 degrees, the transfer itself is usually carried out not in a straight line, but along a parabola (the trunk first lowers, then rises, this allows you to reduce the negative effect of inertia, and less cling barrel for various obstacles).
          3. Center of gravity: let's just say that the displacement of the center of gravity (to the arrow / from the arrow), has a significant impact on the accuracy of only automatic fire.
          4. General convenience: the point is that the shooting takes up a negligible amount of time from the total "use" of the weapon. As practice shows, even cleaning a machine gun usually takes much longer than shooting it. Accordingly, most of the time the weapon is used (except for being in the weapon room or pyramid) is spent on carrying it. And here Bull-Bap loses much to the classics, especially in the "yellow" mode (when the probability of a sudden appearance of the target is average). Of course, modern multi-point belts partially compensate for this moment, but as for me - with the classics on your hands, it is much more convenient to walk in the same jungle, and it is much easier and faster to throw it on the target from your hands.
          ZY and regarding the strength - the pin is quite strong construction (in any case, stronger than our bones))))
        2. yehat2
          yehat2 11 March 2022 16: 29
          -2
          usually the issue is resolved as on SVD - a folding butt. Without a stock, many barrels are already quite compact.
  4. Alexfly
    Alexfly 29 December 2021 18: 55
    +3
    The author was mistaken for 20 years with AUG Steyr ...
    1. Shopping Mall
      29 December 2021 20: 12
      +4
      Quote: AlexFly
      The author was mistaken for 20 years with AUG Steyr ...


      You're right, of course, 1977, typo ...
  5. Jacket in stock
    Jacket in stock 29 December 2021 18: 56
    +1
    IMHO, bulpup is contraindicated in the classic store-horn. Such a stick out of the butt makes the machine gun a gnarled freak.
    1. Alexfly
      Alexfly 30 December 2021 18: 22
      +1
      Are weapons being invented exclusively for catwalks and parades?
  6. Amateur
    Amateur 29 December 2021 18: 58
    +1
    So it seems like the Chinese have given up on their bulpups?
    1. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 29 December 2021 20: 11
      0
      So it seems not. BB their preferences, their army .. The Chinese are just the best experiment. If they do not give up bull-up, then there is a point.
  7. impostor
    impostor 29 December 2021 19: 00
    +2
    In fact, often on the way of small arms in a bullpup layout, not only and not so much their real or perceived shortcomings can arise, but also a certain conservatism

    For a number of cases, "bullpup" is preferable for its compactness, but with drums, discs and tape boxes, this arrangement is simply past.
  8. Undecim
    Undecim 29 December 2021 19: 12
    +5
    For the first time, a bullpup weapon was introduced in 1901 in Great Britain - it was an experienced Thorneycroft cavalry carbine

    For the first time, bullpup weapons were actually introduced in Britain, but not in 1901, but in 1866, and not by Thorneycroft, but by Curtis.
  9. Constanty
    Constanty 29 December 2021 19: 15
    +5
    Kalashnikov assault rifles have also been converted into bullpads. For example, the Finnish Valmet M-82

    [Center]



    In Poland, prototypes were created - the wz.97 BOŻ-1 carbine based on the AKM and Jantar-M wz. 2002 BIN and wz. 2005 based on the Beryl carbine.


    1. Constanty
      Constanty 29 December 2021 19: 21
      +11
      Here's an interesting length comparison between the Valmet Classic and the bullpup.
      1. Ramon Mercader
        Ramon Mercader 29 December 2021 19: 53
        +5
        Yeah, great photo, direct visual aid (let's compare the length of the aiming lines for both samples)
        1. Constanty
          Constanty 29 December 2021 20: 19
          +4
          Here, the classic Valmet is the exceptional AK. An ordinary Soviet AK had a rear sight where the Finnish bullpup was. Is not it?
          1. Ramon Mercader
            Ramon Mercader 30 December 2021 04: 53
            +1
            Yes, yes, but we are comparing concepts and not real samples.
            1. Constanty
              Constanty 30 December 2021 09: 02
              0
              Valmet M82 produced in the amount of 2000 pieces. However, it is difficult to talk about concepts here.

              By the way, the Finns made their own bullpup, using as much as 90% of the parts from the classic Valmet M76.
        2. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 30 December 2021 03: 32
          0
          Quote: Ramon Merkader
          (let's compare the length of the sighting lines for both samples)
          With the proliferation of optics and collimators, this is no longer relevant, without even remembering the range of a direct shot of machine guns.
          1. Ramon Mercader
            Ramon Mercader 30 December 2021 04: 52
            0
            Optics, of course, neutralizes this drawback, but after all, it is also susceptible to external influences. And what does the direct shot range have to do with it, I, unfortunately, could not understand
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 30 December 2021 06: 58
              0
              Quote: Ramon Merkader
              And what does the direct shot range have to do with it, I, unfortunately, could not understand

              Well, I put it unsuccessfully, but led to the fact that a direct shot at the AK-350 m, at the AK-74 - 450 m, but already at two hundred meters for a person with normal vision from an open sight, accurate shooting even at a growth target is difficult. And increasing the length of the sighting line by 15-20 percent will give little.
              In addition, the photo shows Valmet / Galil with a diopter sight. If it were open, the length would be equal.
        3. English tarantas
          English tarantas 30 December 2021 10: 32
          +2
          The collimator decides
          1. Gunfighter95
            Gunfighter95 30 December 2021 13: 13
            +5
            The collimator decides


            Support.
            Especially for the "bespectacled". Again, I judge by myself.
            I am an experienced "bespectacled man" - myopia forced me to wear glasses from grade 3.
            With the transition to adulthood, hyperopia was superimposed.
            And there was a problem: I can see the front sight and the target in the glasses, but I can't see the rear sight.
            I can see the rear sight without glasses, but I do not see the front sight and the target.
            The collimator solves this problem - I was convinced myself.

            Yours faithfully,
            1. English tarantas
              English tarantas 30 December 2021 13: 30
              +1
              Again, I judge by myself.

              Krch in those photographs where I am without glasses, I can hardly stand on my feet after all, only with glasses, my whole life is through glass, without glasses I just sleep. Moreover, the right eye without glasses in too light or a little cloudy weather does not see white targets at 50 meters, it is just that everything is cloudy and floats. Collimators really save, at least the sight does not merge with the target)
              And a funny fact, I live in a private house, and I periodically have to drive strangers and stray dogs from the yard with pneumatics, according to statistics, black dogs become victims of marksmanship 30+ meters a little less often, since they merge with sights more than completely.
              Well, actually, if it helps the half-blind, then the sighted and even more so
              Best regards
              1. Gunfighter95
                Gunfighter95 30 December 2021 13: 35
                +2
                if it helps the half-blind, then the sighted and even more so


                As life shows, not everyone ...
                Other sighted people with 100% vision do not hit the chest target at 50 meters. lol laughing
                Personally watched
                As they say, who is born to crawl ...

                Yours faithfully,
    2. Gunfighter95
      Gunfighter95 29 December 2021 23: 13
      +8
      Kalashnikov assault rifles have also been converted into bullpads.

      And in Ukraine they are still addicted to this.
      He is Vepr, he is Malyuk, he is Vulcan.


      Malyuk - the second modification


      Vepr - the first modification


      The volcano is the last modification. Is in service with units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine

      I had a chance to shoot from the very first experimental sample called Vepr (from the Ukrainian boar).
      They were shooting in a 100-meter closed shooting range.
      Subjective impressions:
      - balancing is good,
      - stable and well controlled even with automatic firing.
      - practically does not take away and does not throw up the barrel.
      - good accuracy (at least for those 100 meters that we fired).
      This is explained, I think, by the fact that the left hand grip on the fore-end almost at the very muzzle of the barrel provides a rigid fixation of the weapon.
      I am not a sniper, and I have little practice in shooting.
      But at 100 meters, in short bursts, I put all 10 bullets in the middle of the chest figure.
      On such a "goby" it is problematic to change the horn magazine, especially under 7,62x39 - it rests on the fire control handle.
      But this problem was solved in an original way - the front stop in the receiver was made movable and it is controlled by a key behind the trigger. And the store is inserted simply with a vertical upward movement.
      The whole interior is AK, but with certain modifications.

      But the Englishwoman L85A1 is just a shelter.
      If SUSAT is installed, goodbye stability. The center of gravity shifts sharply upward, and strives to fall sideways from the hands.

      Yours faithfully,
      1. Zufei
        Zufei 30 December 2021 10: 49
        0
        The first and second versions, judging by the store, are of different caliber
        1. Gunfighter95
          Gunfighter95 30 December 2021 13: 16
          +3
          The first and second versions, judging by the store, are of different caliber

          All three versions were produced in two "native" calibers for AK.
          And 7,62x39, and 5,45x39

          Yours faithfully,
          1. Zufei
            Zufei 30 December 2021 15: 09
            +1
            And the powder gases and the movement of the shutter near the face do not cause discomfort when shooting?
            1. Gunfighter95
              Gunfighter95 31 December 2021 00: 21
              +2
              You know, absolutely no discomfort. They also shot from the left shoulder - no problem. The sleeves flew out almost perpendicular to the axis of the weapon. No wonder the cocking handle can be rearranged on both sides.

              Yours faithfully,
    3. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 1 January 2022 13: 01
      +1
      Quote: Constanty
      Kalashnikov assault rifles have also been converted into bullpads.

      We produce body kits that "turn" AK classics into bullpup
  10. Zakonnik
    Zakonnik 29 December 2021 19: 29
    -1
    I didn’t shoot, but I condemn lol
  11. Undecim
    Undecim 29 December 2021 19: 38
    +5
    During the second half of the XNUMXth century, many experimental machines in the bullpup arrangement were presented.

    Why not divide the article into a couple of parts and pay attention to the declared "set of experimental automata", although not only automata were created?

    British light machine gun Korsak EM 1945.
    But there was also the first half of the XNUMXth century.
    1. Constanty
      Constanty 29 December 2021 20: 03
      +2
      Interestingly, both the Korsak and the EM-2 were designed by the Poles.



      You can select Russian text in the settings
  12. bandabas
    bandabas 29 December 2021 19: 42
    +1
    Any weapon should be - A - "Effective", B - "Convenient (in terms of maintenance)", C - "Inexpensive to manufacture". So far, the classic wins in terms of the sum of all parameters.
  13. Ingvar K
    Ingvar K 29 December 2021 19: 49
    +1
    Good selection of photos of samples of "bullpup", and everything else blah - blah - blah
  14. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 29 December 2021 20: 16
    +2
    Quite an interesting topic, although controversial. For some reason, the author did not mention the main thing that the shooters do not like - this is the rear balance of the weapon. How significant this is is difficult to understand, maybe this is a matter of habit. The length of the store is tenth here, the same bulk stores today are not horns, but drums with an appendage. In general, we are waiting for what the Chinese will say. They're having a really big experiment with their awesome but weird QBZ-95.

    Thanks for the article, of course! Great and interesting topic!
    1. Gunfighter95
      Gunfighter95 29 December 2021 23: 37
      +6
      For some reason, the author did not mention the main thing that the shooters do not like - this is the rear balance of the weapon.


      Here, in each specific sample, it is felt differently.
      Subjectively:
      FAMAS is more or less balanced.
      AUG 77 - more or less with a standard barrel length. With a shorter one - it is already falling back
      L85A1 / A2 - everything is bad here. "Pop" clearly outweighs. If you put SUSAT - also vertical stability becomes catastrophic
      Boar - more and less.
      This is what I was holding in my hands. I cannot judge the rest.

      Yours faithfully,
      1. English tarantas
        English tarantas 30 December 2021 10: 46
        +2
        You wrote above that with ak converted into a bull, the balance is normal. Obviously, the AK has a center of mass between the magazine and the fore-end, if you move the pistol grip to the fore-end, the balance will already be closer to the right hand. Ideal for a bullpup would be the center of mass between the right and left hand, which is actually ideal for the classics, but even on the classics it is not always possible to do this, even more so on bulls, and even if the balance is made like this on bullpup, then all the other disadvantages will remain, so whether the game is worth the candle is a question. I can’t imagine how the British are fighting at all, if you have the whole mass of the machine gun in the back, then it’s even inconvenient to carry and carry it in your hands. It would be interesting to see if someone made a bullpup with a balance bar like on Kovrov machine guns, or simply redid the a-545 as the AK is being altered, and the balance shifts further forward and the recoil itself decreases, which in turn additionally compensates for the recoil of throwing weapons from for closeness to the shoulder
        1. Gunfighter95
          Gunfighter95 30 December 2021 13: 29
          +1
          I have no idea how the British fight at all

          It's interesting to me too.
          The receiver is just flimsy, "walks".
          Everything is somehow, sorry, "on snot".
          The flimsy plastic cover that covers the groove for the cocking handle hits your fingers as soon as you start pulling the bolt carrier back.
          Moreover, on L1, the extracted casings, often slowly flying out of the ejection window, were hammered back into the window by the cocking handle when the bolt carrier was returned to the forward position. In this case, of course, the frame jammed.
          On L2, this problem was solved by installing a special-shaped shutter handle in the form of a "comma" - it beat off the shells flying from the ejection window forward so that they did not fall into the window.
          Despite the fact that the AR-18, figuratively speaking the source, is devoid of such glitches.
          Listing all the shortcomings of the SA80 / L85A1 / A2 is a topic for a separate publication. laughing

          Yours faithfully,
      2. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 1 January 2022 13: 27
        0
        Quote: Saxahorse
        For some reason, the author did not mention the main thing that the shooters do not like - this is the rear balance of the weapon.

        Judging by the photo, some weapon manufacturers do not consider the rear balancing of the weapon to be a disadvantage. For example, the Israeli bullpup TAR21:
        or ours, which did not go into series, Korobov's automatic machine TKB-022
  15. Michael HORNET
    Michael HORNET 29 December 2021 20: 43
    +3
    Why write to an author who has no personal experience in the topic? Chatter set.
    The bullpup pulls up the barrel not less, but more. Israel from bullpup again switches to the XK416 clone of its own design, the Chinese abandoned their bullpup, as did the French and British. In general, in conventional weapons, this krmponovka is not needed, there are more minuses.
    The layout will find application only in special weapons - all kinds of anti-material rifles, such as KORD, and the like.
    1. English tarantas
      English tarantas 30 December 2021 10: 48
      +1
      To be fair, I will note that the French are leaving famas not because of bullpup, but because of the high cost of restoring production from scratch, and about the British, I have not heard what they are switching to?
    2. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 1 January 2022 12: 44
      +3
      "Israel from bullpup again switches to the XK416 clone of its own design" ///
      ----
      Tavor TAR-21 will gradually be replaced by micro-Tavor X95
  16. Reserve buildbat
    Reserve buildbat 29 December 2021 20: 57
    -1
    In the video, "test jars" on the trunks and the ejection of cartridges to the right and forward look beautiful. Shooting from the left shoulder is just a dream ... Or is it “different” and there is no need to mix “mattress manna” with “handicrafts” from other countries?
    By the way, two main drawbacks of the bullpup scheme, which were noted by all who used such samples, are the rear balance (throws up the barrel strongly) and the change of the magazine “somewhere in the armpit”. By the way, for the information of the author, on sports weapons there are special weights that are hung near the muzzle to reduce the barrel toss, but according to your logic, this only increases the toss.
    1. Shopping Mall
      29 December 2021 21: 16
      +1
      Quote: stock buildbat
      In the video, "test jars" on the trunks look beautiful


      These "jars on the trunks" are extremely useful things. It is enough to shoot once indoors without headphones to understand this. I have no idea how our soldiers fought in Chechnya indoors, without active headphones - they all received a small concussion, and possibly irreversible hearing damage. Even the so-called civilians. DTK closed type significantly reduce the sound of the shot. And in the NGSW program, titanium mufflers, printed on a 3D printer, their efficiency should be even higher.

      Quote: stock buildbat
      and ejection of sleeves to the right and forward. Shooting from the left shoulder is just a dream ... Or is it “different” and there is no need to mix “mattress manna” with “handicrafts” from other countries?


      In my opinion, there is a quick left-right switch (not sure). More precisely, it is definitely there, but I do not know how quickly it is possible to change the direction of ejection of the liners. Not the most advanced solution.

      I am more interested in the question of how there is a breakthrough of powder gases in the shooter's face.
      1. Reserve buildbat
        Reserve buildbat 29 December 2021 21: 30
        +1
        The fact is that these DTKs raise doubts about their effectiveness, as well as practicality (holes around the perimeter) Plus a considerable size. Regarding the "quick switch", it seems like nothing new except for the alteration in the barracks (moving the bolt handle, changing the box, turning or changing the bolt / ejector) has not been invented. But all these schemes seem to me far from ideal just because of the possible emission of powder gases in the face, especially in the eyes of the shooter.
        1. Shopping Mall
          29 December 2021 22: 12
          +3
          Quote: stock buildbat
          The fact is that these DTKs raise doubts about their effectiveness, as well as practicality (holes around the perimeter) Plus a considerable size


          This one is just very small, look what "banks" ours use in Syria:


          As for the holes - it is 3D printed from titanium, there must be a complex internal structure, it must have been calculated for a long time. After all, the Americans are not so "dumb" I saw parts printed with titanium, in which a cooling coil was made inside (right in the cavity of the part). In no other way - milling, casting, this can not be done in principle.
    2. English tarantas
      English tarantas 30 December 2021 10: 53
      +1
      Shooting from the left shoulder is just a dream ...

      My father is right-handed, but he shot all his life with his left hand. Shooting from ak with the left hand is also not a pleasant pleasure, gases, the bolt handle and sleeves fly in front of the face, 70 years have passed, but there are still no mirrored shutters, frames and covers.
  17. Max PV
    Max PV 29 December 2021 21: 03
    +5
    Where did the bullpup trend come from and why is it somewhat calmed down now? The thing is that it was caused by the fact that the soldier, as it was supposed, would move in the close airborne compartment of the BMP or armored personnel carrier, and fight in the city, greenery, and in the field in trenches, where every centimeter of weapon length is extra. But over the past two decades, Western countries, and primarily the United States, have been waging somewhat different wars, where soldiers move mainly in very spacious vehicles with excellent mine protection, but to put it mildly dubious in the European theater of operations in the event of a full-scale war, and spend most of their time on bases and checkpoints, and battles take place in the open spaces of the Iraqi and Syrian deserts and the bare Afghan mountains, where the compactness of weapons ceases to be critical. This is why the classic layout is now in vogue. And also "bloom and smell" developments, for example, the same 6,5-6,8mm cartridges, which the Americans, by the way, take not because of insufficient stopping action or the stability of the 5,56 bullet, but, first of all, from - for the desire to conduct aimed fire at a distance of over 500m, and even increase penetration. Or the general trend for these same mine-protected armored cars - the dream of an ATGM operator or a gunner-tanker. But there are those who are forced to fight in other conditions - take Israel for the same. Or, for example, Ukraine, with all my attitude to the policy of this state, I consider the licensed issue of the same "Tavors" to be quite justified, in the conditions where they are used. In general, I believe that the future of small arms lies precisely with bulpups, especially if it is possible to solve the problem of transverse feed of cartridges (from a magazine located along the barrel), which will immediately eliminate most of the bulpup problems, such as throwing a cartridge case in the face, when shooting with the wrong shoulder, the inconvenience of changing the store (here I agree with the author of the article, and I think the "inconvenience" is a consequence of the shooter's lack of appropriate skills - if a person is given the same AK for the first time, he also has problems with changing stores), the center of gravity is shifted back, the inconvenience of using stores increased capacity, etc.
    1. English tarantas
      English tarantas 30 December 2021 11: 03
      +2
      are taken not because of insufficient stopping action or stability of the 5,56 bullet, but, first of all, because of the desire to conduct aimed fire at a distance of over 500 m

      It’s not because of ballistics, but because of the greater power. You should have read at least a little because of what you switched to 5,5. It turned out that the little ones not only badly break through obstacles, but also injure badly, which leads to the recovery of enemy soldiers, it was in the 70s that the wounded soldier distracted his comrades and it was not the fact that he survived, by the 90s it turned out that even the spirits can endure and heal their wounded with the little thing, but there are no problems at all with accuracy, accuracy and flatness, the flatness of the small ones is higher than that of the rifle 7,62, which the Americans in Vietnam appreciated, and the small ones even passed their crazy requirements to shoot aiming at 600-800 meters.
      So the transition is due precisely to an increase in the energy of a bullet, at the cost of a decrease in flatness, which, in the presence of sights, is better than mechanical ones and, finally, a recognized real range of fire up to 400 meters is not so necessary
      1. Passing
        Passing 30 December 2021 23: 15
        0
        Quote: English tarantass
        It turned out that the little ones not only poorly break through obstacles, but also injure badly, which leads to the recovery of enemy soldiers, it was in the 70s that the wounded soldier distracted his comrades and it was not the fact that he survived, by the 90s it turned out that even spirits can endure and heal their wounded with a small child

        Maybe I'm missing something, but I would strongly object. The Americans in the 70s and 90s, as there was a "small", and remains, And the slaughter of "small" they are more than satisfied. The devastating account in their favor on the irrecoverable losses of any of their wars confirms this.
        In high-speed bullets, unlike musket ones, it is not the caliber that kills, but a temporary pulsating cavity, and it depends on the caliber very indirectly, through the speed and energy of the bullet at the moment of impact. Moreover, at a few hundred meters, the energy 5,56 even surpasses our seven. So the problem is not at all in the inferiority of the five as such, but in the inferiority of our 5,45, which at a long distance has a low slaughter. And the weak five is not due to the curvature of our gunsmiths, but more than objective reasons, such as the concept of low-current automatic shooting, which has dominated the SA since the war, and the Kalashnikov assault rifle itself, as a materialized embodiment of this concept. There could be no other five within this framework.
        Quote: English tarantass
        So the transition is due precisely to an increase in the energy of a bullet, at the cost of a decrease in flatness,

        Why is this decrease in flatness? I did not see the parameters of the cartridges in the program. They are not announced. But according to the available indirect data, this will be an analogue of a rifle cartridge in terms of energy, at a higher bullet speed. Those. flatness will be better than a rifle seven, and logically should not be inferior to a five. Those. there will be flatness of the five with significantly superior 5,56 energy at long distances (but still inferior to the rifle cartridge).
        My IMHO for the purposes of the program is to move the distance of penetration of helmets and soft zones of body armor by a couple of hundred meters. Today's five cannot cope with this already at a couple of hundreds of meters. That is, the destruction of "fabric" armor will be ensured at the entire effective range of fire.
        1. English tarantas
          English tarantas 31 December 2021 11: 04
          +1
          And the slaughter of the "little thing" more than suits them

          And, that is, the official reports from the beginning of the 90s about the insufficient power of 5,56 in many situations are fairy tales? OK
          There is no strength, no desire, all the best to disassemble your stream.
          1. Passing
            Passing 31 December 2021 12: 53
            +3
            The conversation was about comparing the lethality of the seven (submachine gun and rifle) and the five (ours and the American), and not about the shortcomings of the American five in certain situations. The 30mm Apache was also insufficient in certain situations (did not pierce the duval). Does this mean that 30mm is worse than seven in terms of lethality? Where is the logic?
            Public debate in Geneva, and the attempt of the Red Cross to ban 5mm in view of the fact that it inflicted much more severe wounds than even the rifle seven, did I dream it? Or maybe it was you who were sleeping at that time? And the fact that the five is many times more intense in giving kinetic energy to the body per centimeter of path compared to the rifle seven (not to mention the automatic one), is this also my invention, and not scientific research?
            Quote: English tarantass
            There is no strength, no desire, all the best to disassemble your stream.

            Clearly, the type is familiar, there are zero arguments, but a meaningful seal for ten.
  18. Diverter
    Diverter 29 December 2021 21: 35
    +3
    my couch opinion.
    Bullpup is good for sniper rifles, in order to have a long barrel with normal dimensions.
    On the hunt, they gave me a bullpup. I fired a couple of times, held it in my hands. Inconvenient. You hold in your hands and the caramultuk falls over. Trunk up. You hold a Kalash, it stands exactly in relaxed hands, and this one must always be held. Inconvenient.
    1. Split
      Split 29 December 2021 23: 03
      +1
      I didn't have a sofa, it almost cost the lives of 9 people ..... SVDU .... I wrote below ... a huge shot (more than 2k shots) 400 meters from bear 1 (like SVD, only for hunting). She (svda) wildly throws up ... completely knocks down the sight after each shot ... bullpup slag ... everyone has already abandoned it
    2. Split
      Split 29 December 2021 23: 10
      +1
      With an eye on ... of course, there is no need to talk about some kind of alignment between SVD and SVD ... they have at least 2 MOA, but in fact, from 400 meters you can take a height from a bear, and this is 4-5 moa emnip, but it's hard, even with expensive scopes .... the mount is no longer relevant now
    3. Aaron Zawi
      Aaron Zawi 30 December 2021 19: 35
      +2
      Quote: Saboteur
      my couch opinion.
      Bullpup is good for sniper rifles, in order to have a long barrel with normal dimensions.
      On the hunt, they gave me a bullpup. I fired a couple of times, held it in my hands. Inconvenient. You hold in your hands and the caramultuk falls over. Trunk up. You hold a Kalash, it stands exactly in relaxed hands, and this one must always be held. Inconvenient.

      Our line infantry is not complaining.



      1. Diverter
        Diverter 31 December 2021 00: 53
        0
        Maybe used to? Or was there no practice with other weapons?
  19. Split
    Split 29 December 2021 22: 59
    +1
    I had to shoot from SVDU in battle ... I did not shoot with SVD, from Bear 1 - this is a fenced-in hunting version ... I confidently laid it down from 400 into full-length ... but if SVDU with sevens is even less (7N1) - 1 confirmed, then with the usual gross bzteshki and lps it's just awful ... in fact, bullpup was abandoned in all countries in fact ... the return in the first place ... it feels like 1,5 times higher ... the ergonomics are absolutely unusual! No. This is the first time I dealt with SVDU knowing the ballistics of the cartridge ... I just really couldn't insert the magazine !!!! belay Not to mention the accuracy of shooting recourse He fired purely for suppression when 7-ki 3 Magazas ended
    1. English tarantas
      English tarantas 30 December 2021 11: 11
      0
      As for the accuracy of the VCA:
      Barrel lengths:
      SVD - 620
      SVDS - 565
      SVU - 520
      This is not a bullpup, but a different ballistics, so if the IED had a 620 barrel, everything would be better for you. Of course, the fact that the rifle flies further from the sighting line is unpleasant and dangerous, but on the other hand, you had the opportunity to shoot one after the other without leaving the place, but how often do you make more than a couple of shots and how realistic do you need to see the hit?
      1. Split
        Split 30 December 2021 11: 20
        +2
        The problem with this is that the moving parts are almost with the shoulder, the angle of the impulse increases ... yes, you will make 1 shot ... but then because of the recoil shoulder ... you essentially have to re-aim at the target ... it’s not even the length of the barrel. 54ka has good ballistics at 400 meters
        Quote: English tarantass
        but how often do you fire more than a couple of shots and how realistic do you need to see the hit?

        So real ... that the cost of a shot is your own life recourse I fired about 170 shots ... of which 3 magazines of sevens (7N1), the rest from the tape of the pkm, broken by bezetekhs and lpski
      2. Split
        Split 30 December 2021 11: 41
        +1
        If, when shooting with a SVD (remember, I shot from a bear 1), you control the movement of the bolt with your hands, and even with an ordinary grip, then on the SVD it is neal, even with a mass of 6 kg! it flies in your shoulder ... that keeping the aiming line is simply unrealistic ... yes, I do not argue - I weighed 64 ... but the bullpup does not give control over the barrel ... that is why the same British abandoned the l85 after the very first clashes and no one uses it now
      3. Split
        Split 30 December 2021 11: 54
        0
        About 7 years ago, I even fiddled with a cartridge case for a couple of years ... I shot from an analogue of the paw-type ... I would have had it in that battle ... 5 rounds of ammunition cost an approximate amount, I understand that almost 13 years have passed there (9 to 53 something there emnip
        1. English tarantas
          English tarantas 30 December 2021 11: 59
          +2
          https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%92%D0%94%D0%9A
          It?
          1. Split
            Split 30 December 2021 14: 59
            0
            Yes, she is a thank you colleague! drinks
          2. Split
            Split 30 December 2021 15: 32
            +1
            Chet remembered .... I was such a master instructor, when I shot 7,62 from the saiga .... like help you? but after Magaz, cocked, lay down, grip with an emphasis on the left elbow ... (well, I don't remember what it is called, I shot from a sandbag) he went nuts ... well, and when I was almost all in 10k invested from 100 meters prifigel in general laughing and without optics .... he shook my hand later. Well so I have been shooting since I was 6 years old lol
            In general, of all the weapons I like it is Barsik1 .... light, the recoil allows you to keep the sight when reloading ... and the reloading itself is an order of magnitude easier .... I also liked the Mauser 98 good weigh !. And from pistols ... Taurus 92, in fact an analogue of the Beretta 92F (aka M19) Yes, you need to take care of it ... but due to the direct movement of the barrel, it is more accurate than lowering the barrel according to the Browning system. from Glock 34 I had 9s by 25 meters, from Taurus not 1, despite the fact that I fired about 250 shots from it (although this is certainly not God knows that ... from the same PM I shot 2 zinc) But that same PM is very capricious .... you really need to get used to a particular pistol. I remember from my father's service certificate I put everything at 10 in the sentry post from 25, and from his deputy I took half in milk (at 9k) lol
      4. Olgerd Gediminovich
        Olgerd Gediminovich 1 January 2022 18: 39
        0
        Alexander,
        what can you say about the microwave-54 / microwave-308?
        Barrel length 410 mm
        1. English tarantas
          English tarantas 2 January 2022 11: 27
          +1
          I have not seen the graphs for ballistics and plates for accuracy and microwave dispersion, I even forgot about its existence.
          In general, at 400mm, you can make adequate accuracy, it's just that in Svd the barrels differ by and large in length (as far as memory serves me), I threw off my friend on the topic of the difference between Svd and Svd ballistics.
          As for the microwave, it even became interesting, if you can read something on it, I will be grateful.
          1. Olgerd Gediminovich
            Olgerd Gediminovich 3 January 2022 10: 52
            0
            There is no expert literature on it yet. I haven’t come across analytical articles in normal journals either.
            Of the declared parameters, the QC promises that when using sniper cartridges, the accuracy of rifle firing in all variants at a distance of 100 m does not exceed 30 mm (1 MOA).
            Well, there is also a video of testing the first microwave iteration under .338 LM. The barrel, as far as I understand, is 560 mm. Shooting at a distance of 1200 m. Conducted by Evgeny Spiridonov, the director of the spacecraft for special projects.
            Shoots a troika. The end shows what is on the target. He does not apply a ruler, but applies a cartridge to estimate the scale (.338 LM - 93,5 mm).

            1. English tarantas
              English tarantas 3 January 2022 13: 22
              +2
              Well, that's the point. Again, I didn’t see anything on it, I’m watching videos like that, it’s better, of course, documents, and not even KK, but army documents.
              100 m does not exceed 30 mm (1 MOA).

              In appearance, the microwave resembles me a semi-automatic SCAR, it is like MK20 in the Americans. For him, they claim 1 moa, although with a 500mm barrel. It seems to me that when inheriting the AK automatics and reducing the barrel to 400mm, giving out a unit is nonsense. You can, of course, grind a super bullet on a super cartridge, and select a reference barrel, but this will not happen in bulk
              1. Olgerd Gediminovich
                Olgerd Gediminovich 3 January 2022 15: 19
                0
                Yes, so far, apart from advertising statements and demonstration of prototypes, there is nothing to talk about. Let's wait until the stages of serial production and trial operation in the existing divisions are completed.
                I looked at the characteristics of such self-loading short-barreled rifles and it is obvious that if the predictions for accuracy come true, then the sample will be very good.
                For example, a fairly recent model is the SIG 716 Patrol. Caliber .308. Barrel - 420 mm. The dispersion diameter (according to the DWJ magazine) at 100 m with match cartridges of 23-33 mm (cartridges from six manufacturers), when firing various army cartridges, the diameter is 52-79 mm.

                Although according to the timing of the microwave tests, it is not clear how long. If, for example, you look at the replacement of AKS74U - AM-17. It looks like some kind of incomprehensible pause. And the thing is in demand.
  20. Cowbra
    Cowbra 29 December 2021 23: 10
    +3
    About recharge methods))) Well, the most convenient, probably
    1. Saladine
      Saladine 30 December 2021 06: 54
      +3
      What a fun way to commit suicide
  21. Baron pardus
    Baron pardus 30 December 2021 05: 41
    +7
    Number of times: shifting the weapon's balance to the butt INCREASES the barrel toss up instead of decreasing it. Shifting the ballance to the barrel - reduces the throwing of the weapon during a shot. And the shift of the ballance to the butt facilitates maneuverability but increases the toss.
    I have, as I said, ample weapons. I now have 2 Bullpups, plus there was one more, but I sold it. So I had options for comparing bulpups. What kind of bullpups do I have? Kel Tek RDB-C and Steyr Aug STG77, there was also Bushmaster М17С. How does it feel?
    Disgusting triggers. After all, everything is transmitted through a system of levers, so the triggers are disgusting, even when compared with the rather simple G2 system that the USA puts on the Saigi. The LMS on even the simplest AR15 from the Palmetto State Armory (not to mention DelTon, Double Star) is simply much better. The Kel Teka RDB-C trigger, by the way, is the best.
    Shooting from the left shoulder. Keltek has no problems with this, since the casings are thrown down (RDB has other problems). But the M17 and AUG even have it. Up to the point that you buy and install the reflectors of the sleeves. Naturally, weapons with a traditional layout do not have this problem.
    Changing stores - here already - is a matter of habit, but personally it seems to me that it is faster to change stores on weapons with a classic layout. On the M17S, changing stores was FASTER than on the AUG. The only benefit.
    The last drawback of bullpups, in my opinion, is the lack of conventional scopes. For example, they are not on AUG, at all. On the M17S, the sight is so disgusting that it was necessary to put a long rail, and hang the sights on it. The same is at AUG. It was necessary to put the rail for 200 bucks (since there is no choice). Moreover, the line of sight will be much higher than the line of the barrel, so you need to shoot carefully. AUG is sighted at 200m. The RBM was shot at 150m. Although the AUG STG77 has a SVAROVSKI scope, I would not say that this is the coolest sight.
    Both AUG and RDB-S and M17S are very easy to disassemble and clean. No harder than AKM (especially M17S). As for the accuracy. My AUG gives out calmly 2-2.5 MOA. Thick barrel but not a very good trigger. Kel Tets is a little worse - the trigger is better but the system itself, the M17C is even worse (it had the most disgusting trigger, which is not surprising the M17C was never finalized, the M17C even had a nickname - a drainpipe).
    The problem with RBM is that the casings fly into a special "well" behind the store, and to make sure that the chamber is empty, you need to pull out the store and turn the rifle upside down (otherwise you won't see anything).
    As for shooting "prone", I have not seen any inconveniences with the M17C and RDB-C. Yes, changing the store while lying is inconvenient. But the AUG, if you insert a magazine for 24 rounds into it - yes, it is extremely inconvenient when shooting while prone, but 30 charging magazines are also produced for the AUG in the USA, with them it is much more convenient to shoot while lying down.
    I can’t speak about FS2000 - I didn’t shoot it. Tavor - after looking at everything, including the price, instead of TAVOR bought Kel Tek RDB-C.
  22. riwas
    riwas 30 December 2021 07: 32
    +1
    A new SMAR-100BPM assault rifle has been created in Belarus.
  23. Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 30 December 2021 08: 17
    +1
    Where there are buppap advantages, it is better to use submachine guns, they are smaller, lighter, you can take more ammunition, otherwise it is better to have an old Kalash with a normal cartridge.
  24. Olgerd Gediminovich
    Olgerd Gediminovich 30 December 2021 13: 16
    +2
    In the Soviet, and then in the Russian army, bullpup assault rifles did not take root.
    The reasons are different, but that is what it is.
    Without taking into account the various experimental samples, we can really only talk about OTs-14 and ADS.
    OTs-14 chambered for 9x39 since the mid-90s was still used in the former division named after. Dzerzhinsky (then it became the OMON of the internal troops of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, now, probably, the Russian Guard), and also in the Security Directorate of the Security Service of Samogo. Experimental batches entered for test use in the troops since 1993 may not be particularly considered.
    Well, and only they themselves and the direct command know about the equipment of combat swimmers. And what they use on missions - ADS or still dive from the APS model 1975 - the townsfolk are not given to know.
    Nevertheless, one bullpup in the troops (mainly in the Airborne Forces), special forces of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the FSB has been used for a long time and has been successfully used to this day. This is OTs-03 (SVU). It was put into service in 1994. Experimental batches of serial production have been delivered to the troops since 1991.
    The rifle was produced in both self-loading and automatic modifications - OTs-03A / OTs-03AS (SVU-A / SVU-AS) (the topic of the article is "Automatic rifles ...").

    SVU-A



    the photo clearly shows the position of the "AB" translator.

    SVU-AS

    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 30 December 2021 17: 31
      +1
      About IED disgusting reviews. Accuracy and reliability are noticeably worse, automatic firing mode rifle cartridge is a separate blooper ..
      1. Olgerd Gediminovich
        Olgerd Gediminovich 31 December 2021 09: 23
        +1
        If you compare with SVD, then yes.
        Compromise after all. So that the paratrooper fit in the packing.
        Apparently the idea was taken from the FG-42. This is indicated by at least a direct copying of the design of the sight and front sight.
        Well, Fedorov wrote about the redundancy of a rifle cartridge for individual automatic weapons.
        But automatic rifles chambered for rifle cartridges continued to be designed. More or less successful. There were both BAR and ABC. Later - M14 and FN FAL. And many others.
        1. yehat2
          yehat2 11 March 2022 16: 38
          -2
          Quote: Olgerd Gediminovich
          FN FAL

          Well, the success of some systems was ensured by reducing the requirements.
          this rifle is one of those. Not a single army that was preparing for a big war was seriously armed with it. But for the Papuans, she went.
  25. 3danimal
    3danimal 30 December 2021 17: 25
    +1
    It can be assumed that this is one of the most perfect bullpups of his time.

    ADS? Compared to Steyr AUG and FN-2000? No.
    A hybrid wagon, as a result - very mediocre both as an assault rifle and an underwater machine gun. There is a separate issue of resource and reliability.
    1. Maxim Davydov
      Maxim Davydov 30 December 2021 22: 54
      0
      Hybrids are always worse than specialized tools. Nevertheless, smartphones, crossovers and all sorts of multitool are quite thriving for themselves, for one compromise hybrid is more practical than a fleet of vehicles or a toolbox. Perhaps for two-middle fighters, ADS is better than AUG + grenade + something underwater.
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 31 December 2021 00: 19
        +1
        Perhaps for two-middle fighters, ADS is better than AUG + grenade + something underwater.

        The only plus is to wear less.
    2. Shopping Mall
      16 January 2022 16: 58
      0
      Quote: 3danimal
      It can be assumed that this is one of the most perfect bullpups of his time.

      ADS? Compared to Steyr AUG and FN-2000? No.
      A hybrid wagon, as a result - very mediocre both as an assault rifle and an underwater machine gun. There is a separate issue of resource and reliability.


      What exactly is mediocrity?
    3. yehat2
      yehat2 11 March 2022 16: 39
      -2
      I don't think the aug is a good rifle. I had a chance to shoot - the impressions are disgusting.
      All her success is based on hype and very high quality of performance.
      If the Kalash did this, they would simply pray for them!
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 11 March 2022 22: 02
        +1
        I don't think the aug is a good rifle.

        So I don’t think so either, it was about the fact that bullpapas originally designed in such a design are better than alterations from automatic machines of the “traditional” scheme.
        Recall the same "Thunderstorm" ..
  26. andron352
    andron352 31 December 2021 14: 52
    +2
    In the classics, the shop is between the hands. The center of gravity does not shift as it is spent. In bullpup, both arms are close to the front, the center of gravity is behind. It is generally impossible to shoot without resting the butt on the shoulder.
  27. Olgerd Gediminovich
    Olgerd Gediminovich 1 January 2022 20: 01
    +2
    About TKB-0146, I would like to add that a system with a shifted recoil momentum was implemented in it. Made according to the fire monitor (like the AN-94).
    The cocking handle is motionless when firing. Case ejection - forward.
    Like the AN-94, there is a high-rate firing mode (2000 rounds per minute) with a cut-off of 2 rounds.
    Length TKB-0146 - 794 mm (AK-74M with folded stock - 705 mm).
    Barrel length - 420 mm (for full-size AK the barrel is 415 mm).
    The accuracy and reliability of the Stechkin assault rifle met the conditions of the competition. But the design was found by the commission to be too complicated.


    One of the first options.
    1. Shopping Mall
      16 January 2022 16: 57
      +1
      Quote: Olgerd Gediminovich
      About TKB-0146, I would like to add that a system with a shifted recoil momentum was implemented in it. Made according to the fire monitor (like the AN-94).
      The cocking handle is motionless when firing. Case ejection - forward.
      Like the AN-94, there is a high-rate firing mode (2000 rounds per minute) with a cut-off of 2 rounds.
      Length TKB-0146 - 794 mm (AK-74M with folded stock - 705 mm).
      Barrel length - 420 mm (for full-size AK the barrel is 415 mm).
      The accuracy and reliability of the Stechkin assault rifle met the conditions of the competition. But the design was found by the commission to be too complicated.


      One of the first options.


      In my opinion, double loading was required there, that is, at first the cartridge was fed to the intermediate feeder, and then to the chamber - it was necessary to pull the bolt handle twice. This is not acceptable, I do not know if this defect has been eliminated?
      1. Olgerd Gediminovich
        Olgerd Gediminovich 18 January 2022 10: 00
        0
        Andrew,
        for sure!
        The supply of a cartridge from the magazine to the chamber here takes place in two stages.
        At the first jerk of the handle, the first cartridge from the magazine is fed by the rammer
        shutter frame on the intermediate feeder-tray. When jerking again, the cartridge from the tray enters the chamber. It discharges in the same way: disconnect the magazine, twitch the handle twice to remove the cartridge from the chamber and the second from the tray.
        Maybe because of this, this machine did not pass the competition.
        By the way, the AN-94 also did not please the commission at first - the magazine rolled back when fired along with the barrel! This is on the competition model AC. Only later did Nikonov make a second version of the ASM assault rifle with a fixed magazine - the prototype of the AN-94. Some experts believe that he either consulted with Stechkin for revision, or took developments from his model on his own. It was not allowed in competitions.
  28. Alexander Samoilov
    Alexander Samoilov 2 January 2022 08: 11
    0
    The author missed two important points. Thanks to the backward-shifted center of gravity, bullpups can be aimed even with one hand. But, their trigger pulls are longer. Therefore, the shot is a little slower. The difference is in tenths of a second. However, in short, indoor combat, this could very well be the difference between life and death. Although, even in spite of such a drawback, the future is undoubtedly in the compact individual weapon.
    1. Biodred
      Biodred 2 January 2022 15: 45
      0
      Don't talk nonsense. With a hard pull, it makes no difference whether it is long or short.
      1. Alexander Samoilov
        Alexander Samoilov 4 January 2022 13: 26
        -1
        Only in theory. In practice, almost everyone has a delayed descent response.
        1. Biodred
          Biodred 10 January 2022 10: 49
          +1
          Is this a new word in materials science? Apply for a Nobel Prize.
  29. Biodred
    Biodred 2 January 2022 15: 44
    0
    Bullpup, bullpup ... With a slight movement of the hand, absolutely any machine of the classic type can be converted into a bullpup. It is enough to move the fire control handle, break off the butt and attach a butt plate instead. And call it a separate layout? Weird.
    1. Shopping Mall
      16 January 2022 16: 55
      0
      Quote: BioDRED
      Bullpup, bullpup ... With a slight movement of the hand, absolutely any machine of the classic type can be converted into a bullpup. It is enough to move the fire control handle, break off the butt and attach a butt plate instead. And call it a separate layout? Weird.


      It turns out shit, because of which the bullpup layout is perceived so negatively.
      1. Biodred
        Biodred 18 February 2022 16: 08
        0
        It can be done normally, but the essence of this does not change. Basically. And it cannot change. And it is simple: the stock has been replaced with a recoil pad and the fire control handle has been moved.
  30. dokusib
    dokusib 3 January 2022 19: 00
    0
    All the advantages of the bulpup scheme described in the article look far-fetched, and the disadvantages are unavoidable. At least when using modern ammunition. What will happen with the promising ones is not at all clear, but for example, the saiga 308 with a 350 mm barrel does not lose so much to the saiga with the 415 and 555. On smaller calibers, the difference is even smaller. So the big question is which is better for urban conditions bullpup or a short classic.
    1. Shopping Mall
      16 January 2022 16: 54
      0
      Quote: dokusib
      ... but for example, the saiga 308 with a 350 mm barrel does not lose much to the saiga with 415 and 555. At smaller calibers, the difference is even smaller. So the big question is what is better for urban conditions, a bullpup or a short classic.


      Well, yes, he still loses. Both in accuracy and in the energy of the cartridge. This is not to mention the flash of the shot and the sonic boom, which makes the operation of this weapon with a short barrel without a "can" almost impossible - the gunpowder stupidly does not have time to burn out.
      1. dokusib
        dokusib 22 January 2022 06: 50
        0
        How much does it lose? In what situation can a short Saiga not cope with what a Saiga with a 415 barrel can? 555 is generally a perversion for those who regretted the money for the Tiger. Flash and sound, yes they are, but the 308 itself is not very quiet. In the forest on the hunt, this and that is tolerable. And indoors in a shooting range or in a war in a building without headphones and a can, you will quickly get sick of naughty from any 308. Somewhere in my opinion on Igor Pavlov's channel there is a video about measuring muzzle energy at 308 with different barrel lengths, there between the difference of 350 and 415 within 10% less than 300J for a cartridge with energy over 3000J these are tears, on the contrary, the return will be softer
  31. cubadato
    cubadato 14 January 2022 13: 46
    0
    Quote: English Tarantas
    Again, I judge by myself.

    Krch in those photographs where I am without glasses, I can hardly stand on my feet after all, only with glasses, my whole life is through glass, without glasses I just sleep. Moreover, the right eye without glasses in too light or a little cloudy weather does not see white targets at 50 meters, it is just that everything is cloudy and floats. Collimators really save, at least the sight does not merge with the target)
    And a funny fact, I live in a private house, and I periodically have to drive strangers and stray dogs from the yard with pneumatics, according to statistics, black dogs become victims of marksmanship 30+ meters a little less often, since they merge with sights more than completely.
    Well, actually, if it helps the half-blind, then the sighted and even more so
    Best regards

    A pneumatic bullet hitting a dog's body will cause infection and a long, painful death in the end - funny?
  32. yehat2
    yehat2 11 March 2022 16: 18
    -2
    There are 2 comments on the article.

    the lack of long trunks in the forest is not so obvious. If the forest is dense, you can use shortened trunks. So I don't think that bullpup has an advantage here, besides, how dense should the forest be if the length of the trunk gets in the way?

    and the second point - on the bullpup scheme it is more difficult to compensate for a significant return, because. the lever is short. An example is the difference in the convenience of firing from m-ki and aug. It is more convenient to fire from an American carbine.