Letter to Frederick II from Batu, the case of the Krakow trumpet player: Mongol troops in Europe

The Mongol invasion of Europe is shrouded in no less an aura of conspiracy theories than the invasion of Russia. Various groups of professional, not entirely professional and not at all professional historians have their own views both on the relationship of the Horde with Russia in the XIII-XIV centuries, and on the relationship of the Horde with European countries.

At the time of the Mongol invasion of Russia (we will operate with generally accepted terminology) in Europe, the Holy Roman Empire was the largest state formation. However, it is difficult to call this state centralized. If at all it fits the definition of a state. And the empire acquired its name closer to the middle of the XIII century.

The Mongols had enough informants to report on the situation in the Holy Roman Empire and Europe in general. The main "reports" concerned the fact that the empire has problems not only with its neighbors and the Holy See, but also within itself.

In the early 1240s, the Mongol commanders Batu and Subedei entered the territory of the Galicia-Volyn principality, which in fact offered no resistance, unlike the central principalities of Russia. Before the Horde, the prospect opened up to enter Eastern Europe, and then to go to the Holy Roman Empire, which at that time was ruled by Frederick II Hohenstaufen.

Before Batu began to prepare a campaign to Europe, he sent an ultimatum letter to Frederick II, where he demanded that the ruler resign from the powers of the emperor and become a vassal of the Mongol khan. Frederick was surprised at such a letter, believing that the Mongols had no chance of getting to his domain. In response, Hohenstaufen wrote a letter in which he stated that for an ordinary vassal he had “too much experience in government” and, with a fair amount of irony, asked if he would be suitable as a khan's falconer?

Meanwhile, the Mongols set their sights on Poland and Hungary, where the Galician and Chernigov princes had already fled from their possessions.

In the Polish possessions, the Mongols successfully took Lublin, went to Krakow, not far from which one of the Polish princes died in an ambush set up by Chingizid Baydar. In Poland, it should be noted, the memory of the events of 1241 is still preserved. For example, the ceremonial with the Krakow trumpeter is well known: playing the trumpet in the church, ending at half-pitch, is a tribute to the memory of the event when the trumpeter in 1241 played an alarm signal in Krakow and was struck by a Mongol arrow.

Mongolian troops in Europe are described in detail in the story "Flywheel Stories»On the YouTube channel:

Comments

[Tneburashka]

King Daniel is a knight

[48njkz]

In general, what is it about here ?! If there was no Mongolian army in nature and history!

[Usher]

What is it with?

[seti]

Smeshariki go to look and not to grumble with slander at Alexander Yaroslavich.

[Cossack 471]

What kind of "betrayal" is there? Or is it a story from Lviv professors?

[Chief Officer Lom]

I don't want to watch YouTube, I went to read ...

[Volodin]

Quote: Chief Officer Lom

I don't want to watch YouTube, I went to read ...

Read in the "Video" section? .. Do you know a lot about perversions

[Archon]

Well ... I open the VO site, I also think to read it. I see an interesting topic. It says "today". I open it. And there is a video that is inconvenient to watch. And it seems they promised to tell and broke off. I feel a little deceived myself. After all, when you open the page, only then you can see that this is a video.

[impostor]

Temujin Borjigin under the protection of Kok Tengri saw a greater practical result in the bend of the Celestial Empire

[agond]

In the invasion of the Tatar-Mongols, there are enough dark places, for example, how the horse army of the Mongols managed to carry out winter campaigns for hundreds and thousands of kilometers if the cavalrymen of the time of Nicholas II and the later Red Army knew that traveling in winter on horseback was possible only from one fodder warehouse to another and not how otherwise, even to give water to horses in winter is not as easy as in summer, but here an army of tens of thousands of horses moves mostly through empty lands with a low population density, no fire from a dark hut, and even more so oats with hay, no one they were not in store for this case ... but historians are not at all embarrassed by this.

[impostor]

Most likely there was a wagon train and forage reconnaissance worked

[ycuce234-san]

The camel was used in the war at Stalingrad and even at Berlin. They could walk on camels. The bones of war camels were also found in Russia and in Central Europe. And small horses in winter were spare animals, meat stores, and they walked light with small packs, maximum. In the summer, accordingly, they no longer took camels with them.

[samosad]

Do you seriously think that a camel may not eat for weeks, but does it carry its food and water in its humps?))) I assure you - this is not so, and it also needs to be fed and watered every day, at least in the morning and in the evening.

[ycuce234-san]

It tolerates cold more easily and is less picky about food and water. Lives because in a sharply continental semi-desert climate.
However, how the Mongols successfully traversed the most desolate lands is a good question. It is possible that they organized, through the forests, secret stores of food in advance, before the raid, by the hands of local merchants. It was not difficult for merchants to bring
paid food and supplies to the right place from within the principality and as such there were no borders or customs, then there were no.

[samosad]

What do you mean less picky about water and food? They feed him on the campaign the same as the horses. He wants to eat and drink in the same way. He just carries more. Everything.
PS Read about the advancement of Russia in the 19th century towards Central Asia. The use of camels is well described there ... and they were used there by thousands!

[ycuce234-san]

You can drink less, the food is coarser than the horse - as this already happens in its natural habitat. But the fact that he carries more so it was hardly significant for the Mongols - war camels cannot be used for cargo, and their owners went on a hike light, and they tried not to overload back too - otherwise archaeologists would have found, for example, large ingots in the steppe copper, bells, which, due to the certain high cost of metals, made sense to take as mining in the baggage train.

[samosad]

You would first read about their use, then you would argue.

[Seal]

Quote: ycuce234-san

It tolerates cold more easily and is less picky about food and water. Lives because in a sharply continental semi-desert climate.

The Mongolian camel, as well as the Mongolian horse, are endemic.
We read Przewalski.
The steppe or desert, with its boundless expanse, constitutes the native abode of the camel; here he feels quite happy, like his master, the Mongol. The one and the other flee from a settled life, as from the greatest enemy, and the camel loves wide freedom so much that, put in a corral even for the best food, it quickly grows thin and finally dies. The only exceptions are the camels that the Chinese sometimes keep for transporting coal, bread and other weights. But all these camels seem to be some kind of miserable scum in comparison with their steppe cousins. However, Chinese camels do not tolerate captivity all year round, and in the summer they are always sent to the nearest areas of Mongolia for correction.

In general, a camel is a very peculiar animal. With regard to indiscriminate food and moderation, he can serve as a model, but this is only true for the desert. Bring the camel to good pastures, which we are accustomed to seeing in our countries, and instead of eating and fattening it, it will begin to lose weight every day. We experienced this when we came with our camels to the excellent alpine meadows of the Gan-su mountains; the same was said to us by the Kyakhta merchants, who tried to have their own camels for transporting tea. In both cases, the camels were spoiled, being deprived of the food that they had in the desert. Here, the favorite foods of the described animal are: onion and budargan, followed by dyrisun, low wormwood or saxaul in Al-Shan and harmyk, especially when its sweet-salty berries ripen.

[ycuce234-san]

There is a good source on the animals and livestock of the Horde people in the internet - V.I. Tsalkin. "Pets of the Golden Horde". From it, by the way. it is clear that the Horde themselves would have easily overcome any snow-covered wastelands, since they had the opportunity to drive herds of cattle with them. They moved along frozen rivers and therefore had no problems with a watering hole. The logistics of fodder remains a historical secret, since in the forests of Rus cattle breeders and fodder procurers do not particularly roam - there even were special breeds of sheep, the ancient Russian "forest sheep", different from the steppe.
In general, in the summer, feed could be delivered by the river fleet, (the Horde were smart naval commanders - https://zihuatanexo.livejournal.com/1245975.html), but this will not work for winter campaigns.

[Seal]

So "Horde" or "Mongols" ??
Are Mongols traditionally afraid of water? Even when frozen. The Mongols, like a number of other neighboring peoples, have a very peculiar attitude towards water. After all, everyone heard that the Mongols did not like to wash? Why ? Because, according to their beliefs, a very strong and very evil spirit lives in the water, which it is better not to disturb. The Mongols believed that the pollution of the water would anger this spirit (the dragons who control its cycle). They feared that if they stained (muddied) the water, the gods would send a storm to destroy their homes. Therefore, the Mongols did not wash or wash anything for a long time.
Swimming or washing your clothes in running water was prohibited. Until recently, most of the Mongols did not even bother to dress up. At most, they could take off their coats to shake the lice out of them and put them back on. They wore the same thing day after day until it literally rotted right on top of them.
They also did not wash dishes in water. Instead, they washed the plates with the leftover broth. And then they would pour the used broth back into the vat and cook again.
Actually, the Mongols still have a very specific smell. They say that in order to understand how the Mongols smell, it is enough to walk past a Moscow bum.
Some attentive tourists to this day note that if a Mongol needs to cross a frozen river (it goes without saying that the Mongol rides on a horse), the Mongol will get off the horse, find sand or earth, fill the ice with a sand or earthen path from coast to coast, and along it, carefully cross the river on horseback. Or even transfer the horse by dismounting. And the Mongol will cross the frozen river almost strictly in the perpendicular direction.
And another moment. For example, from Moscow to N. Novgorod by land 400 kilometers. And how many kilometers from Moscow to Nizhny Novgorod by water?

[ycuce234-san]

Maybe "odorous", only their modern descendants have become. It is more correct to talk about the historical "Horde" people. The presence of the amphibious assault fleet of their ancestors, prepared for arrival in Japan, speaks for itself.
The trade of the Golden Horde, oriented towards the countries of the West, was geographically carried out in three directions, of which only one went by land (and had the same problems of logistics of feed for cattle animals as during the raids): 1) Northwest - by rivers, up The Volga, along the Dnieper and Don, and from there to the Baltic Sea and to the cities of Northern Europe ("to the Germans"); 2) Western. This direction connected the cities of the Golden Horde with the countries of Eastern and Central Europe and led to Northern Italy through the lands of Lithuania, Poland, Hungary and Germany. Transportation of goods in this direction was carried out mainly by caravan routes - by land. Caravans covering great distances along this route rarely transited; 3) Southwest direction (Black Sea) - movement by water.
Therefore, there is no particular doubt that in the warm season the Horde people could carry agricultural feed with these rivers with whole ships, harnessing, for example, oxen, to river barges; somewhere to accumulate and store them.

[Seal]

Quote: ycuce234-san

It is more correct to talk about the historical "Horde" people.

What are "historical Horde"? And how do they differ from the unhistorical Horde?

Quote: ycuce234-san

The presence of the amphibious assault fleet of their ancestors, prepared for arrival in Japan, speaks for itself.

I mean, you want to say that the "historical Horde" had some ancestors who had a navy for an excursion to Japan?
There are two points at once. The first is that, according to the official version of the history, excursions to Japan allegedly took place in 1274 and back in 1281. That is, it would be more correct to talk not about ancestors, but about descendants, and the closest "historical Horde people".
Well, the second is that there is no documentary evidence that these sea excursions really were at that time. Now, if you take our sea excursions, well, there is Orlov's squadron's campaign in the Mediterranean Sea, then whole regiments of administrative documentation remained from them, some with personal resolutions of Catherine II. But the Great Khan Khubilai allegedly sent his "sea armada" to Japan exclusively by oral means.

Trade of the Golden Horde focused on the countries of the West

Is this version confirmed by something? Well, there maybe there are deeds of sale concluded between some, for example, Hanseatic merchants and Horde merchants for the supply of, for example, animal skins to Europe? Or Bashkir honey?

Horde people could carry these rivers of agricultural feed with whole ships

What do you mean by the term "agricultural feed"? And the ships of what displacement do you think that some "historically Horde" had?

[Sergey11121]

Do not confuse a horse with a reindeer. Without fodder, all horses will simply die in winter conditions, especially in a wagon train. Have you seen many Mongoloks? Those who are the horses? They will not last even a sled in the snow, because they are more like dogs in height, perhaps like horses.

[Nazar]

Sergey11121 - Tell me, in the opposite direction, that is, from West to East from the European part of Russia to Chukotka itself, the so-called "pioneers", the same Dezhnev, Khabarov and others, how did they get there? On S-7 flights, or on horseback?
You are simply not familiar with this issue, and yet the history of several Kalmyk clans is known, which decided to return to the "land of their ancestors." They walked thousands of kilometers from the right bank of the Volga, with all their household, women, children and cattle to the Uighur steppes ... but there they were not expected and they had to wander back and, after all, they reached, not without losses, but reached.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

I wanted to write the same thing. This is the so-called. "dusty campaign", the Torguts migrated from the Urals to their "historical homeland" in Dzungaria, and the campaign began at the very height of winter, on January 5, 1771. Nothing, the snow somehow did not interfere.

[samosad]

We got it, we got it ... but with what loss. The White Guards also went to the Ice campaign, but only what did it cost them!

[Sergey11121]

Young man, I grew up and lived my life in Siberia, in the village, And I know about the passability of horses on meter-long snow, and about feeding in winter conditions, and so on. Believe me, I have something to compare with. As for the Mongolians, I can say again that in the wagon train this is not a horse, rather a misunderstanding, it's better not to think of it under the saddle, for grazing, or for hunting. Mongolians, due to their small stature, have one good quality, this is a very small, mincing head , the feeling that you are swimming at full gallop does not shake. This is for shooting with a gun or a bow.

[Nazar]

Sergey11121 - Colleague, "a young man", that is, I will soon be 70 years old
I still live in Mongolia, in its Russian part, relatively recently our republic was called that way: "Buryat-Mongolian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic" and I know well how Mongolian "grass" horses differ from European "grain"
Here's what's interesting - not a single opponent who denies the very possibility of horse crossings for several thousand km has answered a simple question, okay, let's say the Mongols go on horseback from the Gobi and right under Ryazan is questioned ... well, later, the opposite is true. the side from under the same Ryazan to the Amur itself, or even to Chukotka in general, all our "pioneers" Khabarov-Dezhnev-Pokhabov and others, what did they use to get to? Isn't it horse-drawn - huh? That is, Russian expansion from West to East on horseback is real, but from East to West on horseback, the Mongols couldn't get there? To say this is not just stupidity, but a complete unwillingness to use your head for its intended purpose.

[Sergey11121]

Well, about seventy times .. I beg your pardon. With regards to the transitions from west to east, the local mode of transport has always been used, deer, dogs, people in the form of porters. In winter, in many regions of Siberia there is a lot of forest, a lot of snow, we do not have a steppe, snow does not tamp with a storm, the horses simply drown and it is impossible to pass the baggage train on untouched virgin lands. on the broken roads in full.

[Seal]

Quote: Nazar

but from the East to the West on horseback, the Mongols could not get there?

Traditional Mongolian horses are just as endemic as traditional Mongolian camels. Read the notes of the Central Asian researcher Przewalski.

The steppe or desert, with its boundless expanse, constitutes the native abode of the camel; here he feels quite happy, like his master, the Mongol. The one and the other flee from a settled life, as from the greatest enemy, and the camel loves wide freedom so much that, put in a corral even for the best food, it quickly grows thin and finally dies. The only exceptions are the camels that the Chinese sometimes keep for transporting coal, bread and other weights. But all these camels seem to be some kind of miserable scum in comparison with their steppe cousins. However, Chinese camels do not tolerate captivity all year round, and in the summer they are always sent to the nearest areas of Mongolia for correction.

In general, a camel is a very peculiar animal. With regard to indiscriminate food and moderation, he may serve as a model, but this is only true for the desert. Bring the camel to good pastures, which we are accustomed to seeing in our countries, and instead of eating and fattening it, it will begin to lose weight every day. We experienced this when we came with our camels to the excellent alpine meadows of the Gan-su mountains; the same was said to us by the Kyakhta merchants, who tried to have their own camels for transporting tea. In both cases, the camels were spoiled, being deprived of the food that they had in the desert. Here, the favorite foods of the described animal are: onion and budargan, followed by dyrisun, low wormwood or saxaul in Al-Shan and harmyk, especially when its sweet-salty berries ripen.

[Seal]

Quote: Sergey11121

there is one good quality, this is a very small, mincing head, the feeling that you are swimming at full gallop, does not shake

Is this gait exactly a gallop? The slowest canter is the arena canter. But even with it, the rider still rocks, since the gallop is still a gait consisting of a series of jumps. I believe that what you named

very small mincing head

it is still not a gallop, but a step. A step is such a gait, in which at each moment of time the horse's three legs rest on the ground and only one is rearranged. With such a gait, the horse really walks so calmly that the Mongols can even sleep on horseback.

[fiberboard]

I'm sorry, the depth of snow cover in Mongolia and the Yaroslavl region is very different. If there are places in Transbaikalia where there is no snow in winter (it blows off there by the wind), then in the Yaroslavl region it is waist-deep, and what horses can find there, under such a layer of snow? For example, in Altai and Tuva periodically (as well as in Mongolia) there is a loss of livestock due to snowy winters. And this is now that there is enough technology. And what happened in the 13th century? And have you ever seen real Mongolian horses? They are a little bigger than ponies.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

Mongols are experienced warriors, taking care of forage always comes first. They brought both Chinese and Muslim engineers and siege engines with them, didn't they take care of the forage? And about the depth of the snow - there was an article on the site that the Mongols had excellent intelligence, they were well prepared for the campaign to Russia, and they probably thought out the routes of movement in conditions of heavy snow.

[Seal]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

They brought both Chinese and Muslim engineers and siege vehicles with them.

But Marco Polo says that the Chinese did not know any stone throwing machines. Until his uncles built a stone throwing machine for the Great Khan.

[Seafood]

Nikolai and Matvey? Is that how the names of the brothers were translated?

This passage from the travels of Marco Polo is considered to be an invention by historians, because the siege of the city itself was in 1273 - this is 2 years before the travel of Polo. The surviving chronicles of those times (Chinese) indicate that the engineering troops were indeed used by the Mongols in the siege, but they were Arabs who were brought from Baghdad.

Sources:
1. On the siege of the city - Morgan DO, "Marco Polo in China", The Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, 1996.
2. About Arabs from here - https://www.jstor.org/stable/23881433.

[Seal]

Quote: Fiesta

The surviving chronicles of those times (Chinese) indicate that the engineering troops were indeed used by the Mongols in the siege, but they were Arabs who were brought from Baghdad.

And have you seen her? You mean that Chinese chronicle? Or maybe you know someone who wrote or said that he saw at least from a distance this chronicle?
And as for the fidelity of Marco Polo's information, that is, the options that he in general composed everything, without visiting China a meter. But historians are amazing people. They have: "we believe here"; "here we do not believe"; "but here the herring was wrapped - you cannot make out anything, so you can think of it based on your own views of historians."

[Seafood]

And have you seen her? You mean that Chinese chronicle? Or maybe you know someone who wrote or said that he saw at least from a distance this chronicle?

So I also pointed out the source - Morgan DO, "Marco Polo in China", The Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, 1996. So he says that he saw :)

But historians are amazing people. They have: "we believe here"; "here we do not believe"; "but here the herring was wrapped - you cannot make out anything, so you can think of it based on your own views of historians."

It is not true, there is far from "we believe here", "we do not believe here", when something is confirmed by historical findings (documents, for example), then no one disputes this. It's not about all kinds of "alternatives" that exist in any science, but about scientists-historians.

Specifically, there is so much controversy about Marco Polo because he has a lot of inaccuracies and inconsistencies (again, that siege of the city), but at the same time there are some things that could really be learned only when really being in China and close to the court (political structure, for example ).

[Seal]

Sorry, but I checked your source first.

Morgan DO, "Marco Polo in China", The Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, 1996. Here he says he saw

This Morgan DO refers to the chronicle, but neither in a dream nor in spirit says that he personally saw it.

could only be recognized by really being in China and close to the court (political system, for example).

Well, you and I "know for sure" the political structure .. well, for example, Gondor. Well, which of us was in Gondor? I was not. And you ?

[Seafood]

Well, you and I "know for sure" the political structure .. well, for example, Gondor. Well, which of us was in Gondor? I was not. And you ?

Well, quite a stupid comparison, sorry. Gondor was invented and described by the author of this fantasy world, from here you know it. This is a figment of fantasy, as the author wanted, so it was arranged. I didn’t understand at all the "gotcha" that you were trying to arrange here))

We are talking about a real state that existed at that time and about which we knew very little, mainly from the words of Muslim merchants, with whom we interacted much more often. Therefore, it was difficult to get an accurate description simply "from words", but Polo did it to a large extent.

This Morgan DO refers to the chronicle, but neither in a dream nor in spirit says that he personally saw it.

The link to the document says that Morgan worked with the source, this is a scientific article in a peer-reviewed journal. If you have doubts about this, you can always send a message to the magazine, where you will also refer to sources and show that Morgan told a lie :)

[Seal]

Quote: Fiesta

We're talking about a real state that existed at that time.

What state are you talking about? Are you a supporter of the version about the existence of "Great Mongolia", allegedly conquering half of the Old World?

Link to the doc and says that Morgan worked with the source

First, the "chronicles" as well as the "chronicles" refer not to documentary historical sources, but to narrative historical sources. Therefore, one should not substitute concepts and call a "document" that which is not a document.
Secondly .... and what are the claims to Morgan. He yes "worked with the source." Printed on good paper in a publishing house. And I mean that Morgan does not hint at a word that he saw original chronicles.

Gondor was invented and described by the author of this fantasy world, from here you know it.

Forgive me, but do you seriously think that our entire Ancient, Ancient and significant part of the History of the Middle Ages was composed somehow differently?

[Seafood]

What state are you talking about? Are you a supporter of the version about the existence of "Great Mongolia", allegedly conquering half of the Old World?

Oh, I see.

First, the "chronicles" as well as the "chronicles" refer not to documentary historical sources, but to narrative historical sources. Therefore, one should not substitute concepts and call a "document" that which is not a document.
Secondly .... and what are the claims to Morgan. He yes "worked with the source." Printed on good paper in a publishing house. And I mean that Morgan does not hint at a word that he saw the original chronicle.

Demagoguery has already begun. If there is evidence of falsification of any historical documents, then give it.

So for you to believe him, Morgan had to write "I saw the original with my own eyes"? Or would you then say that there is no evidence that they saw them with their own eyes?) Let’s then follow in your footsteps - do you have evidence that he worked with a source "printed on good paper in any publishing house"? You assert this, and to prove it to you.

Forgive me, but do you seriously think that our entire Ancient, Ancient and significant part of the History of the Middle Ages was composed somehow differently?

Do you also have evidence that this is exactly how it was composed? Great, please, and why don't you publish anywhere with such a storehouse of information?

Or is this generation of Ren-TV and the next "all stupid and in a conspiracy, and I am rationally thinking ™ d'Artagnan, I know how everything really was"?)

[Seal]

Quote: Fiesta

Or is this generation of Ren-TV and the next "all stupid and in a conspiracy, and I am rationally thinking ™ d'Artagnan, I know how everything really was"?)

Forgive me, but all of those listed below, which are very critical of the quality of our history and to whose voices I modestly added my quiet voice - also "Ren-TV generation" (and so on in your text) ???
1) "History is only a fable accepted by all."
B. Fontenel
2) "History is a fiction with which everyone agrees."
Вольтер
3) "In the history of any nation there are many pages that would be magnificent, if they were true."
Denis Diderot
4) "History is sometimes something that never happened, described by those who have never been there."
E. Poncela
5) "History begins when nothing is already impossible to verify."
V. Verkhovsky
6) "Those who make history often at the same time falsify it."
V. Brudzinsky
7) "No one has changed the history of mankind like historians."
E. Mackenzie
8) "God cannot change the past, but historians can. And it must be just because sometimes they render this service that God tolerates their existence."
Samuel Butler
9) "History is like a meat paste: it is better not to peer at how it is prepared."
Aldous Huxley
10) "Everything is in the hands of the Lord, and only History has slipped out of His control."
Zbigniew Hedgehog
11) "What will history say?" "History, sir, lies, as always." George Bernard Shaw
12) "If you remove all the lies from history, this does not mean at all that only the truth will remain - as a result, nothing may remain at all."
Jerzy Stanislav Lets.
13) The depth of centuries is already visible to us in indistinguishable detail, and only the historian has been given the opportunity to lie in documents.
I.M. Guberman
And that's not all.
Or maybe the Ren-TV generation and the next one (hereinafter in your text) - do you see in the mirror every morning when you shave?

[Seafood]

Well, you have collected quotes, so what? I can find a similar amount:
1. History - collection of facts, which should not have been. "- Lec, already quoted by you.
2. "So, history belongs to the one who guards and honors the past, who with fidelity and love turns his gaze to where he came from, where he became what he is; with this reverent attitude, he seems to repay the debt of gratitude for the very fact its existence. " - Nietzsche.
3. "History is not just an alternation of eras and times. It is also an endless gallery of historical portraits of people who have passed the earth." - Volkogonov.
4. "History is a treasury of our deeds, a witness of the past, an example and a lesson for the present, a warning for the future." - Cervantes.
And so on. Nobody says that the story is perfect and is an accurate enumeration of the facts. However, the historical method is constantly evolving and improving the quality of reconstruction based on historical documents.

What amuses me more is that alternatives tend to question the parts of the story they don't like, while willingly treating the other parts as facts. Also, in most cases, the proposed alternative history stands on even more clay feet than the colossus of history itself.

You have the same thing - the story of Marco Polo about the fact that he built stone-throwing machines for Khan for some reason is true for you, but the rest - they lie, they lie, and in general the story is a fiction. This is not to mention the fact that Polo was talking about the Mongol troops besieging the Chinese city, and not about the Chinese, and the extract from the chapter you quoted does not say anywhere that the Chinese did not know about stone throwing machines.

[Seal]

Quote: Fiesta

You are true, but the rest is lies, lies, and indeed history is fiction. This is not to mention the fact that Polo was talking about the Mongol troops besieging a Chinese city, and not about the Chinese, and the extract from the chapter you cited nowhere says that the Chinese did not know about stone-throwing machines.

Really?
Here is the full text.

I will tell you, in truth, after the whole area of ​​Mangi [Manzi] was subdued, this city did not surrender for three years. Whenever army of the great khan (which, as we are assured, included Chinese masters in the production of stone-throwing devices. Well, we are assured that even Batu’s army pearled Chinese stone-throwers along the winter road, with which Evpatiy Kolovrat’s detachment was shot - my footnote) came here, it stopped in the north; and on the other sides around the city there was a large and deep lake. Only from the north, the army of the great khan could besiege the city, and from other sides food was brought to the inhabitants by water. The city would never be taken, if this did not happen: for three years the army besieged this city and could not take it, and it was annoying for the rati.
Nikolay, Matvey and Marco were saying here: "We'll come up with a projectile for you to take over the city." The military people agreed, and these words were conveyed to the great khan. Messengers from the army came to the Great Khan and reported that they could not take the city by taxation, they were bringing food there from such and such sides and this could not be prevented. And the great khan ordered to take the city at all costs. Two brothers and a son, Mr. Marco, were talking here: “Great sovereign, you have masters, they make such shells that they throw large stones; this city will not stand; cars will start throwing stones, and then he will surrender.
The great khan agreed and ordered to make those shells as soon as possible.

The brothers had a German and a Nestorian Christian in their services - good craftsmen. The brothers ordered them to build two or three such machines to throw stones at three hundred pounds. The craftsmen built two excellent cars; the great khan ordered to take them to the army that besieged Saianfu and could not take the city. Cars came there, installed them: the Tatars looked at them as if they were a great miracle in the world. What can you say? They parked the cars and threw a stone into the city; a stone hit the house, destroyed and broke everything, made a terrible noise. The inhabitants saw such an unheard-of disaster, they were amazed, frightened and did not know what to say to them and what to do. (sorry, but the besieged, that, also Tatars - my footnote)

They gathered for advice, but they didn’t figure out how to escape from this projectile. They began to say here that if they did not surrender, then everyone would die; consulted and decided to surrender in every possible way. They sent to tell the commander that they were surrendering and wanted to be under the great khan. The commander accepted them and agreed, and the city surrendered. By the grace of Nicholas, Matthew and Mark, it turned out like this, and it was no small matter. Both the city and the region are the best of the great khan; great income for him from here.

I told you about this city and how it was taken by those machines that the brothers ordered to build. Now let's leave it and talk about the city of Xingui [Yizheng].

So, for the fact that the Chinese did not know about stone-throwing machines, two points. And I voiced them. I repeat.
1 We are assured that even as part of Batu’s army, a fair amount (no one really says how many specifically) of Chinese masters of stone-throwing machine operators went to the West. So why would one assume that the army of the Great Khan fundamentally ignored these Chinese engineers?
2) The besieged surrendered, because for the first time they saw such a miracle and did not know what to do.
In general, you need to be more careful, foreman Fiesta, more carefully.
And that's about it.

You have the same thing - the story of Marco Polo about the fact that he built stone-throwing machines for Khan for some reason is true for you, but the rest - they lie, they lie, and indeed the story is fiction.

Yes, the Lord is with you, I am in favor of completely throwing Marco Polo out of "narrative historical sources". Only if you really throw it out, then throw it out completely. But I believe that supporters of the official version of history are unlikely to completely throw out Marco Polo. You have too much to do with it.
And about the opinions of great people.
I gave sayings showing that, according to the greats of this world, history is a fairy tale.
What did you bring? You didn’t even understand all the humor of Jerzy Lec who wrote: “History is a collection of facts that should not have been.” Is it really incomprehensible that Jerzy Lec mocks historians, saying that they consider facts that should not have been at all .
Or take Nietzsche.

"So, history belongs to the one who guards and honors the past,..."

He directly says that history belongs to historians. What we protect, we have.
Note that I have given specific statements about what history is a lie, but you have not given a single specific statement that history is true. Even Cervantes' statement is more of a mere moralistic statement than a statement that expresses Cervantes' confidence in the authenticity of history.

[ORINCH]

If every year there is a death of livestock, for 800+ years, probably all livestock have fallen, and its number, in your opinion, should go towards negative values. In fact, of course, this is not the case at all. Yes, the death is observed. But, firstly, it occurs not because of snowy winters, but because of thaws, when at first melted snow turns into an ice crust in the frost. Secondly, it is localized, nevertheless, the area of ​​historical Mongolia is about 3 million km70, this whole territory cannot be affected by death in any way, and it affects quite insignificantly on the general balance of animal husbandry. In Mongolia, about XNUMX million head of cattle are now bred, even if a million die from lack of food, then this is a disaster at the level of the family, somon, mb, even aimag. On a national scale, there is a statistical error. Thirdly, mortality affects mainly the cloven-hoofed small animals and cattle - their hooves are weaker and cannot break through the ice crust, unlike horses. Horses and cloven-hoofed camels with powerful legs and thick hooves survive even in dzuda conditions.

[fiberboard]

There is a lot of snow from time to time, every few years in winter. It is clear that in some places in Mongolia. But in Central Russia, deep snow falls constantly, every year, throughout historical Russia. We are talking about the Mongol invasion of Russia, and not about the Russian invasion of Mongolia. Whatever hooves the Mongolian horses have, it will be problematic for them to get food from under the meter-long snow.

[ORINCH]

And in Russia, most likely, it was not necessary to hoof, although, I repeat, the height of the snow cover is not critical - the main thing is that there is no ice (look how Bashkir, Yakut horses winter - relatives of the Mongolian). The Mongols walked through the most populated and developed part of Zalesskaya Rus with the highest density of settlements. There were enough supplies that the locals had prepared for the wintering of their cattle.

[fiberboard]

As it is not critical ?, just this is critical. Because of the depth of the snow, they simply cannot reach the grass, in other words, they cannot shovel off the snow with their hooves, it crumbles again.

[Seal]

Quote: ORINCH

The Mongols walked through the most populated and developed part of Zalesskaya Rus with the highest density of settlements. There were enough supplies that the locals had prepared for the wintering of their cattle.

Do you have data on the population of Zalesskaya Rus and the density of its settlement? Where ? Please share !!!!

[Seal]

https://ru.sott.net/article/2052-mongoliyu-nakryli-moschnye-snegopady-za-den-vypala-pochti-vsya-zimnyaya-norma-osadkov

Mongolia was covered with powerful snowfalls: almost all winter precipitation fell during the day!

Earth - Chronicles of Life
Sat, 05 March 2016 06:15 UTC
Most of Mongolia is covered by heavy snowfall. There is information about the missing people and cars.

At the moment, snow of moderate intensity is falling over most of the country. In Ulaanbaatar, about 5 mm of precipitation fell during the night. This is not much, however, the snowfall is intensifying and it looks like it will continue all day.

The cyclone is very active. Most of China is abnormally warm, while cold air hit the south of Eastern Siberia. An active frontal zone was formed, on which, under the conditions of a rotating Earth, an active cyclone whirled relatively quickly.

Snow in a sharply continental climate is unlikely to be very strong. But there is a high probability of its long duration (about a day). In addition, a strong wind roamed the vast expanses of the Mongolian steppes. A so-called general blizzard is forming, which carries both falling snow and raised from the ground. As a result, in a five-meter layer above the earth's surface, visibility deteriorates to 300, or even up to 100 meters.

It was this dangerous weather phenomenon that caused the disappearance of 36 people (mainly shepherds) and 10 vehicles in the steppes and semi-deserts of Mongolia. The search continues, and every hour becomes more alarming: it is possible to survive at a temperature of -10 degrees, a blizzard and gusts of wind of 20 m / s (subject to the availability of appropriate clothing) for a maximum of two days.

Such a heavy and long snowfall in Mongolia in winter is a unique phenomenon. After all, the bulk of precipitation falls here in the summer months. In winter, over Mongolia is the center of the famous Asian anticyclone. Therefore, it is mostly dry and frosty here. For example, in Ulaanbaatar, only 10 mm of precipitation falls during the whole winter. It is possible that today the entire winter norm will be exceeded!

http://diss.seluk.ru/av-zemlya/658083-1-geoekologicheskoy-obstanovki-goroda-ulan-bator.php
The climate of Mongolia is greatly influenced by the country's mountainous terrain and distance from the oceans. Therefore, the climate of Mongolia is sharply continental, with harsh and long winters, relatively warm summers, and sharp fluctuations in temperature, both daily and seasonal. In the climate of Mongolia, a winter anticyclone plays an important role, the center of which is located at the northern edge of the country, south of Lake Baikal.
Therefore, winter is characterized by severe and persistent frosts that are not interrupted by thaws.
During the year, air temperature fluctuations are 80 - 90 ° С, which indicates a sharp continental ™ climate of Mongolia. If we compare the temperatures for the period from 1960 to 2003. (over 40 years), it can be seen that the average annual temperature increased by 1,56 ° C; in spring and autumn - by 1,4 - 1,5 ° С, in summer - by 0,3 ° С.
The average annual temperature is negative. The average long-term January temperature in the western part is -22,9 ° С, in the Gobi -16,7 ° С, in the northern part of the country -19,5 ° С, the average July temperature is +15, + 23 and +17,5 ° С, respectively.
Precipitation falls mainly in the summer (July to August), as well as in May and September. Little snow falls; as a rule, it remains only in the mountains.... In the cold season, almost all precipitation falls in solid form. In the mountains, a stable snow cover is established in October and persists until the beginning of April. Its highest height is also noted there. In the desert and steppe zones of the plains, stable snow cover is practically not formed.

[Seal]

Quote: ORINCH

About 70 million heads of cattle are now bred in Mongolia, even if a million die from starvation, then this is a disaster at the level of the family, somon, maybe even aimag. On a national scale - a statistical error.

A catastrophic loss of livestock continues in Mongolia. Losses - 8 million corpses or 90%
00: 28 14.05.2010
Mongolian nomads are experiencing a real disaster after an abnormally cold winter. Over the past six months, frost and jute have killed more than eight million livestock, according to the UN. Many of the families lost entire herds, which in fact were their main capital. Because of this, about seventy percent of the population has already fallen below the poverty line. Local authorities are unable to cope with the trouble on their own, and banks are extremely reluctant to provide loans. And the Mongolian shepherds themselves are not sure that they will have the opportunity to return the borrowed money. To prevent further loss of livestock is possible only with outside help.

Akbar Usmani, UN representative

I appeal to the entire world community with a request to support local shepherds. They lost 90 percent of their herds. Some families lost their entire livestock. We must provide them with financial support during this difficult time.
Kirill Chorney
In 2009, the total number of livestock in Mongolia amounted to 44023,9 ​​thousand heads, which shows an increase in the number of livestock by 1,7 times compared to 1990.
That is, out of 44 million, 8 million fell. This is no longer a statistical error.
In January 2021, livestock losses in Mongolia reached 296,5 thousand heads. This was reported yesterday by local media with reference to the National Statistical Committee.

The loss of livestock is due to the fact that the Mongolian aimags Bayankhongor, Uvurkhangay and Gov-Altai suffered the most from starvation. During the specified period, the number of goats decreased by 164,5 thousand heads, sheep - by 86,3 thousand heads, cows - by 29,6 thousand heads, horses - for 14,5 thousand heads, camels - by 1,6 thousand heads.

According to the Ministry of Food, Agriculture and Light Industry, by the end of 2020, the total number of livestock in Mongolia decreased by 5,5%, amounting to 67,1 million heads.

[75 Sergey]

Mongolian horses ate pasture, there is a hoof from a fist, unpretentious, which is what they were good

[rytik32]

There are such horses, but they have no chance in battle against large horses fed with oats: neither win nor gallop away.

[75 Sergey]

History has proven otherwise ...
But do not forget, this is primarily a vehicle.

[rytik32]

History has proven otherwise ...

What has history proved?
The Mongols did not engage in horse fights, but preferred ambushes and other tricks.

But don't forget, this is primarily a vehicle.

I agree that often the Mongols won at the expense of the mobility of their army.

Do not forget, Karpini directly writes about the presence of heavy cavalry among the Mongols: horses in leather armor, horsemen in armor.
It is unlikely that a modest Mongolian horse would have endured such a load. And the Akhal-Teke is quite.

[75 Sergey]

This Carpini, contemporary of their chtol?
Yes, and no one canceled the trophies, or did they come from Mongolia like that?

[rytik32]

You are joking?
Karpini met with Batu and Guyuk

[Maxim G]

Quote: rytik32

It is unlikely that a modest Mongolian horse would have endured such a load. And the Akhal-Teke is quite.

Withstood and used.
And not only Mongols, the Yakuts in the 17th century also fought in armor on their horses, like the Mongols of the 17th century.

And of course, before their conquests (when they got access to tall horses (in Central Asia), the Mongols also fought in armor on a horse.

[Seal]

Quote: Maxim G

And of course, before their conquests (when they got access to tall horses (in Central Asia), the Mongols

Did the Mongols carry stands for climbing tall horses?

[Maxim G]

The prize for the dumbest question is guaranteed to you.

[FrankyStein]

Mongolian heavy cavalry lost in a direct clash with heavy Russian or European. And it's not only about the horses, but also about the "uniforms". The Mongols had experience and an inexhaustible number of cheap horsemen on the side of the Mongols.

[Seal]

Quote: FrankyStein

The Mongols had experience and an inexhaustible number of cheap horsemen on the side of the Mongols.

What does "inexhaustible" mean ?? Do you have data from the Mongolian population census for the year 1200?

[Seal]

Quote: FrankyStein

Mongolian heavy cavalry lost in a direct clash with heavy Russian or European. And it's not only about the horses, but also about the "uniforms". On the side of the Mongols had experience and an inexhaustible supply of cheap horsemen.

That is, you want to say that neither we, nor the Europeans had experience .... sorry, but what experience? Horse breeding experience? Experience in organizing horse attacks? Experience with countering horse attacks?
Weird. According to the traditional version of history, we had constant clashes with the steppe cavalry: Khazars, Pechenegs, Torki, Polovtsy
The Europeans, it seems, too, starting with the Hunnic cavalry, then the Avar, then the Arab (and the Europeans had to deal with the Arab cavalry for centuries), then the Hungarian, then there were the Crusades, in which the crusaders also had to deal with both the Arab and the Seljuk cavalry. Oh yes, with Bulgarian and Polovtsian too.
And, well, all these clashes of the European cavalry with the above cavalry, as well as the European infantrymen with the above cavalry, did not give the Europeans any experience?
And the main thing. If there was experience on the side of the Mongols (and for us and the Europeans it turns out that it was not, then why

Mongol heavy cavalry was losing in direct collision with a heavy Russian or European.

??? Or do you mean to say that the whole point is that the Mongols were hampered by their experience? Or was the Mongolian experience negative?

[ORINCH]

Were they large horses in Russia in the 13th century? For some reason, in the 15-17 centuries. Russian local cavalry rode on Nogai horses, direct relatives of the Mongol.

[rytik32]

Good horses have always come at a premium. Even then, even now.

[Seal]

Quote: ORINCH

For some reason, in the 15-17 centuries. Russian local cavalry rode on Nogai horses, direct relatives of the Mongol.

Really? Taki and "straight" ?? Even the Yakut horse is not a direct relative of the traditional Mongolian. A rather distant one.

[Klingon]

These are Mongolian undersized horses and not Arabian horses or English galloppers, these can eat reindeer lichen with straw from under the snow. Iceland has other similar frost-resistant horses.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Klingon

these can eat lichen with straw from under the snow.

Mongolian horses were armed with BSLs? Otherwise, how to get food under, at best, 30-centimeter snow?
This is not the Mongolian steppe, from which the snow was blown away by the wind, this is the Russian forest-steppe and forest, where there are winds, but not the same as in Mongolia.
Speaking of reindeer moss. Something did not meet him south of the parallel of Leningrad.

[AUL]

Quote: Klingon

These are Mongolian undersized horses, not Arabian horses.

And one gypsy taught a Mongolian horse not to eat at all! I haven't fed for two months. She was already quite used to it, but the trouble is - for some reason she died. It is a pity, otherwise the price of a horse would not have been!

[rytik32]

The Mongol army on the march to the west was hardly very large. Thousand 10-20. Otherwise, you will not feed. And she took not in numbers, but in military organization, discipline, reconnaissance and preparation of the campaign.
A trip to Russia is in general some kind of sur. And in his spare time he decided to read the chronicles, and what did the Russian princes do during the campaign (1237-40)? Yes, they went about their business, incl. internecine, as if there were no Mongols at hand. And too many facts indicate that someone brought the Mongols, as before that the Pechenegs and Polovtsians were brought for internecine squabbles.
And you are right, there are too many questions:
how did you get around in winter? (they could not go along the rivers - the horses are not shod)
how were the siege weapons transported?
how did you forage?
Why are not all cities burned but in a strange order?
why hike in winter, and not in summer like all nomads before?
How did you manage to get around the locals in the forests and swamps on Sita? 100% someone did them!

[fiberboard]

I believe that you are entirely and completely right. They walked knowing where they were going, where the fodder reserves were (perhaps someone even prepared and supplied them for them), they knew about the prince's crucifixes. The reconnaissance was done very well.

[Seal]

Quote: rytik32

And too many facts indicate that someone brought the Mongols, as before that the Pechenegs and Polovtsians were brought for internecine squabbles.

There is a version by Albert Maksimov in the book "Rus that Was". His version is that the son of Andrei Bogolyubsky, Yuri Andreevich, who was the husband of Georgian Tamar, did not disappear into an unknown place, but recruited a small army in Turkmenistan and restored his power in Georgia. Then he subdued the Polovtsi (fortunately he himself was half Polovtsian). Well, then he went to Russia. He approached with a small army to the cities, announced who he was. Some of the cities, especially the one where the princes ruled, who were not tainted by the murder of Bogolyubsky, opened the gates. Others, where the eldest sons of Vsevolod the Big Nest (Bogolyubsky's brother, who organized his murder) ruled, decided to resist. Yuri Andreevich took these cities on a shield, and sometimes the townspeople refused to defend their princes. His namesake, Yuri Vsevolodovich, apparently guessed that the people of Vladimir would not fight for him and fled from Vladimir to the swamps on the Sit River. Where he was found and killed.
But having restored his power, Yuri Andreevich, accustomed to the southern climate, left Russia for the Transcaucasus. In the future, his descendants became more and more alien to Russia. But a significant part of his associates calmly went to Russia to serve the Russian princes, who still recognized the supremacy of the descendants of Yuri Bogolyubsky. And after that, when they no longer recognized it, too.

[Diviz]

You decide whether or not there was a written language among the Mongols.
Now, by the way, they also want to rename Russia to Muscovy, and after 100 years the Mongols will write here. And their leader was Put Yin.

[IGOR GORDEEV]

Quote from DiViZ

You decide whether or not there was a written language among the Mongols.
Now, by the way, they also want to rename Russia to Muscovy, and after 100 years the Mongols will write here. And their leader was Put Yin.

The story is like this) In my opinion, there is such a possibility, especially after some man-made or military cataclysm.

[75 Sergey]

Chinese chtol?

[Diviz]

The Chinese were called Ahrimans. If this term is taken from Zoroastrianism, then these are negative entities.

[Usher]

Are you sick? What the hell are Ahrimans?

[Diviz]

The Zoroastrians have their own wars!

[S. Nikolaev]

"according to the testimony of many chroniclers, the Mongols did not at all correspond to modern ideas about them. The warriors of Genghis Khan's army were overwhelmingly tall, fair-haired and with blue or green eyes. Gumilev points out that the same is confirmed by the frescoes in Manchuria. The great Mongol was born in the Delyun-Boldok tract. He belonged to the old Borjigin family. The very word "Borjigin" is translated as "blue-eyed". Representatives of this family were very tall, powerful people. Their hair was light, but not the same as that of the Scandinavians, but rather reddish. The eyes met blue, blue with a brown border around the pupil, or green. The men of the Borjigin wore long beards and were distinguished by wide foreheads. The same description is found in the Persian scientist and physician Rashid ad-Din. In the book "Collection of Chronicles" he writes that Genghis Khan was fair-haired. His eyes were also bright, like all Borjigins. A similar description can be found in the Italian Marco Polowho generally describes the Great Mongol as a European ..."

Some strange Mongols. I wonder how before the twentieth century. called (self-name) themselves the peoples living today on the territory of modern Mongolia?

[S. Nikolaev]

"Minus" has arrived. From Mongolia, probably

[aslan balaev]

Mighty heroes ...... on Mongolian small horses !!!! ????

[Antipatr]

Such an appearance of Genghis Khan is possible if the Borjigins were from the Orkhon Uighurs, who, according to Chinese sources, originated from the interaction of the Huns and Dinlins (carriages, tele people). Here is a portrait of a Uyghur girl:

[Center]

[S. Nikolaev]

The girl has pronounced Mongoloid characters, which always dominate when mixing races. Confusion, as evidenced by redheads. Nevertheless, Genghis Khan's contemporaries describe him and those around him as Caucasians.

[Antipatr]

Perhaps everything is simpler. In the Chinese books he is a Mongoloid, in the Arab and Persian books he is a Caucasian. In the left picture, all people of European appearance, not only Khubilai. They painted such an appearance that they were used to seeing among their own people. In the paintings of the Renaissance, antique heroes are dressed in medieval tights and knightly armor of the 15th century. In modern Mongolia, there are 700 thousand bearers of the family name Borzhigon (21,5% of the total population). 35% of the population have a haplotype of one of the Chingizids, and Temujin himself - 24% of all Mongols. But this does not exclude the fact that some of his blood was Indo-European. Moreover, all Europeans want it so

[S. Nikolaev]

Perhaps everything is simpler

They painted such an appearance that they were used to seeing among their own people.

And it’s true. As I myself did not guess ...
And so it was. For sure

[Usher]

Sarcasm is not appropriate, according to your history of all other peoples, is this all a lie? Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, Central Asians, Arabs were attacked Europeans? Yes, even on the Europeans themselves, there are letters, originals in Rome, for you these are not sources? Aren't you funny yourself?

[S. Nikolaev]

there are letters, originals in Rome

And sarcasm would be appropriate here, but I will refrain. I will only note that the "Europeans" are a geographical feature, the Caucasoid is an anthropological one (as it were, generally accepted today).

[Usher]

You are wrong, there is no such thing as an anthropological sign, there is no need to hang noodles here

[S. Nikolaev]

Did the Europeans attack Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, Central Asians, Arabs?

Do you represent the difference between "European" and "Caucasian" or not? Not satisfied with the word "sign", replace it with "characteristic" or some other synonym.
What are you carrying?

[Usher]

According to your words, it turns out that there were no Mongols, and instead of the Mongols, the ancient "Rusichi" "Cimmirians" "Tartarians" were attacked, in short, the Europioid people. And if you do not understand what I wrote about the "Europeans" then these are your problems, you are playing with words and talking BOTH !!!

[S. Nikolaev]

it turns out that there were no Mongols

There were, were, take it easy. Even in the middle of the twentieth century. "Bolshevized Mongol hordes from the East ..." mortally threatened the peaceful life of peaceful Europeans. But what is the twentieth century - and at the beginning of the current threat of invasion of the barbarian hordes of Buryat tankers did not pass, especially if you listen to the representatives of the current European civilization.

[Seal]

Quote: Usher

there are letters, originals in Rome,

Are you answering? Are the originals in Rome? Have you seen them? Or maybe you can name the one who saw them?

[Usher]

I answer. Precisely in the Vatican to be more precise. I have not been to Italy unfortunately. But this does not negate this fact, what do you want to prove to me here? Or are you an unbeliever of Thomas? Then what would you believe in something you need to see everything yourself? So what? Put your fingers in the socket, there is an electric current of 220V 50Hz. You check everything yourself, or drink gasoline. Lol!

[Seal]

I have not been to Italy unfortunately. But that doesn't change this fact

What fact? Where do you see the fact? In an outlet? So in the socket, my dear, the electric current, and not the documents of the Vatican.

what do you want to prove to me here?

In fact, you undertook to prove that there is something in the Vatican. But no evidence, except for the traditional sacramental phrase "I swear by my mother, the Vatican has all the documents, but the Vatican librarians do not show those documents to anyone" from you have not yet been received.
Sorry, but taking the word for it, especially those like you, excuse me again, is stupid.

[Usher]

What are you playing with words here, hello? I gave an allegory at the expense of the current, it is not necessary to take it directly, or you?

[Seal]

Quote: Usher

I gave an allegory at the expense of the current, it is not necessary to take it directly, or you?

Okay. I can repeat it without mentioning the current in the outlet.

In fact, you undertook to prove that there is something in the Vatican. But no evidence, except for the traditional sacramental phrase "I swear by my mother, the Vatican has all the documents, but the Vatican librarians do not show those documents to anyone" from you have not yet been received.
Sorry, but taking the word for it, especially those like you, excuse me again, is stupid.

[S. Nikolaev]

Here's another thing that's important. Rather, this is the most important thing.

The very beginning of the program, where they cite a couple of videos of the most delusional propaganda:
https://youtu.be/PLaUQkETh9E

Pay attention to the reaction of Solovyov, who, in principle, can very strongly puncture the opponent with arguments, and he knows how to do it. But in this case he limited himself only to ridicule. And this is no coincidence. Vladimir himself does not know history, as, indeed, do many of us. It was he, after all, several years ago, in one of the broadcasts, that the primacy in the development of the territories of all of Asia belonged to the ancient Jews, who stood at the origins of civilization in general. That's it, no more, no less.
The trouble is that the true story, at best, is reduced to the level of unscientific myths and legends, and at worst, they are simply cleaned out. And this is not done by chance or at the whim of one or another elite (or religious) group, but on a global scale and purposefully. Because in such a state of affairs it is very difficult for people, and often it is simply impossible to determine the meaning of their existence and the entire civilization as a whole. No wonder they say: there is no future without the past. This is also why they are fighting desperately with him, with the past.

[Usher]

Quote: S. Nikolaev

The girl has pronounced Mongoloid characters, which always dominate when mixing races. Confusion, as evidenced by redheads. Nevertheless, Genghis Khan's contemporaries describe him and those around him as Caucasians.

Who exactly and can you link? What nonsense about Europioids?

[48njkz]

What have you all written here. There was no Mongol yoke. Geneticists found no signs of mixing the European race with the Mongolian.
One schizophrenic came up with a yoke, and everyone else supported.

[Usher]

Is there a European race? And should there be mixing in the yoke? Another unfinished fascist, an alternative. All people are wrong, but only Anatoly knows the truth. The Pope of Rome corresponded with someone, all other nations are fools, they fought with someone. And Anatoly said that he knows the truth, nothing happened and the Mongols dreamed of them)))

[Seal]

Quote: 48njkz

One schizophrenic invented the yoke, and everyone else supported

Not one schizophrenic. When Moscow declared itself the Third Rome, the First Rome took a deep offense at us. And he began to invent all sorts of fables about us. For example, the "Tatar yoke" is an invention of the Poles, who had the goal of proving that Poland is the last outpost of civilization in the East of Europe. And then there was only wild Muscovy, which had just emerged from under the Tatar yoke. But it remained wild. Then, when, in the course of the Napoleonic troops, the Europeans saw real Tatars in Europe and Paris and were surprised that the Tatars - exactly the same Europeans as themselves - European historians quickly began to transform the "Tatar yoke" first into the Tatar-Mongol yoke, then into " Mongol-Tatar ", and now often even we ourselves are limited to one" Mongolian ". And the Khalkha nation was appointed to the post of "Mongols". Likewise, when the Swedes had to designate the rights to the "Kemsk volost" - the Swede Peter Petrei created a theory that once the Vikings, who are Swedes, were called to rule in Russia. And so the word "Mongol" in Turkic means the eternal country "Mangi el". Well, and our liberals, already then looking at the West with admiration, amicably picked up these theories that, yes, here we are, the gray-footed ones, have been under the yoke for 300 years.

[S. Nikolaev]

Huns, Dinlins, Tele, Uighurs ...
Much remains to be understood
https://youtu.be/yoFaLZXlcO8

[Sergey Sfiedu]

"Some strange Mongols" - why strange? -. red-haired Mongoloids were widespread before. But the black-haired gene is stronger, with the mixing of tribes, the Mongols became black-haired. In Siberia, in some places, fair-haired aborigines survived. At the time of Chingiz, the tribes mixed a little, there were more fair-haired.

as before the twentieth century. called (self-name) themselves the peoples living today on the territory of modern Mongolia?

- Khalkha. The term itself arose at the end of the XIV century and originally denoted a military unit, which included the main Mongol tribes, and only a couple of centuries later became the self-name of the people. Genghis, apparently, did not care what language the nomads spoke - Mongolian or Turkic, only personal devotion to him as a leader mattered.

[Usher]

What are Khalkha? OROD here is the self name. Now, when there is a conversation in the Buryat (Mongolian) language about an outsider, one may hear the question "Are they swearing?" that is, the Buryat / Mongol, that is, not your own? For example Russians are called MANGYT (singular).

[ORINCH]

"Orod" is "Russians" in Buryat, the plural form of "oros". The self-name of the Mongols is "Mongol", Khalkha is one of the major military and administrative divisions of the late Middle Ages, the late 15th and early 16th centuries, when the Genghisids fought for dominance in the Mongolian world with the Oirats. Khalkha comes from Khalkh, meaning shield, they were the front tumens in the wars with the Oirats. Khalkha Mongols currently make up about a third of all Mongols, most of them live in China, in the Autonomous Region of Inner Mongolia and adjacent provinces of China, from Xinjiang in the west to Heilongjiang in the east.

[75 Sergey]

Shakespeare and the nephews ...

[Siberian-1]

Quote: Volodin

Quote: Chief Officer Lom

I don't want to watch YouTube, I went to read ...

Read in the "Video" section? .. Do you know a lot about perversions

Behave with Captain Vrungel - don't get over it.

[Klingon]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

Quote: Klingon

these can eat lichen with straw from under the snow.

Mongolian horses were armed with BSLs? Otherwise, how to get food under, at best, 30-centimeter snow?
This is not the Mongolian steppe, from which the snow was blown away by the wind, this is the Russian forest-steppe and forest, where there are winds, but not the same as in Mongolia.
Speaking of reindeer moss. Something did not meet him south of the parallel of Leningrad.

I was joking about reindeer moss. But take a look at Icelandic horses, food from under the snow ... well, or ash, they are dashing to get. By the way, in Iceland, reindeer lichen grows

[aslan balaev]

But it is not permafrost in those parts where the Mongols passed. Maybe 800 years old !!! back the climate was milder there. Or, let's say, we started a hike at the beginning of May and went all the way in 5 months.

[zenion]

So even relying on historical information Chekhov Yaroslav Hasek wrote that the Mongols entered northern Europe without suffering. Pay off. But when the Mongols moved to the south of Europe, they managed to gather well-armed troops and fight. The Mongols stopped, but robbed everything and left. It so happened that the main tumens left together with Batu and returned to Mongolia, for there was a gathering of Mongolian pioneer leaders who would be the main ruler of all pioneers. It turned out that the pioneer organization of Bytyya was the largest. But all the sons of Genghis Khaim had to be endowed. And the Mongols began to fall apart like the army of Alexander the Great the Two-Horned.

[voyaka uh]

Mongols in Europe defeated first the Hungarians, and then the Polish-German
army. There were only francs left. But the Mongols returned east for the kurultai.
In the second (weak) attempt, later they already suffered defeats from the Lithuanians with the Poles, and from the Czechs, and from the Austrians. Europe has prepared.
Central Asia, Russia and China were under the rule of the Horde.

[Seal]

Quote: zenion

So even relying on historical information Chekhov

Do you mean the Kraledvorsk and Zelenogorsk manuscripts for an hour? This is how Vaclav Hanka composed them in the 19th century.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Краледворская_рукопись
http://krotov.info/libr_min/12_l/ap/teva_1985.htm
https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/vatslav-ganka-i-literaturnye-mistifikatsii-rukopisey-kraledvorskoy-i-zelenogorskoy/viewer
According to the witty remark of a later researcher, from the moment of the death of J. Dobrovsky and up to the end of the 50s of the XIX century. “In the Czech Republic, apparently, there was no one except V. Ganka who would have doubted the authenticity of the RKZ”. Almost the same was estimated at this time RKZ and in Russia. Already in 1820 the famous Slavic lover and statesman A. Shishkov published the first Russian translation of the Republic of Kazakhstan, made by him from the first Czech edition, delivered to Russia by the famous educator Count N.P. Rumyantsev. Having told in the preface about the history of the discovery of the RK and the positive response of Y. Dobrovsky, A. Shishkov then expressed the opinion that RK is useful "just as much for our literature ... for the reason that the language of this ancient manuscript is almost our pure language."
A. Shishkov further believed that if the text was reproduced in Cyrillic, it would become even closer to Russian "in the pronunciation of words and even in the very grammatical rules." Shishkov published in parallel the Czech text and the text of his translation. For each song of the RK, he proposed his own interpretation of individual words and expressions of the original, and in some cases he quoted the text of the German translation made by V. A. Svoboda "for better understanding". In the Russian text of A. Shishkov, there are a lot of inaccuracies, literalisms and other defects, as indicated in the literature.
In 1821 A. Shishkov published RZ. Of course, he did not allow even the thought of falsification.

[voyaka uh]

Mongolian detachments came out at different times and to the shores of the Adriatic Sea
on the site of what is now Croatia, and on the Mediterranean coast in Syria.
At the same time, the Mongols landed troops in Japan and even in Indonesia.
In any case, a great deal: the Chingizid empire from the Pacific Ocean to Europe.

[agond]

Someone Nikolai Levashov said that Genghis Khaan is not a name, it is a position, like a general. army.

[Usher]

Genghis Khan is a title, not a position, translated as "khan-ocean" that is, universal khan. Generals are "darks".

[Seal]

For the Turks, sunrise is shygys, sunset is batys. Hence the East-Shygys, and the West-Batys. The main holy direction of the Turks (Kazakhs) was and remains the "East".
If you stand facing east, then on the right (in the Kazakh language "the right side" - "he") will be Ontustik-South, and on the left (in the Kazakh language - "sol"), respectively, Soltustik-Sever.
In this regard, everything that is to the west of the steppe for the Turks (Kazakhs) had the prefix "batys", and to the east - "shygys".
Hence, the ruler of any Turks (Kazakhs) west of the habitat was called Batys Khan (Batu Khan; Batu). And the one who ruled to the east - well, for example, China - was Shygys Khan (in our pronunciation Chingiz Khan). That is, all these Batu, Baty, Batys and Shagys (Chinggis) could be (and were, because the West is full of all kinds of "Karls") the names of both specific people and common nouns for all khans-rulers of these directions and territories. By the way, Chinggis Khan is simply any “Sun Khan” or “Eastern Khan” and in the language of a number of Volga non-Turkic peoples.
So Chinggis Khan is a position. More precisely, the position is Khan. And Shagys or Chingis is the Eastern one. Just "Eastern Khan", of which there were thousands over the centuries. Here another puncture of professional historians is obvious. Those travelers who then brought all the information they received to the European courts and court historians, when they walked (traveled) through the Turkic lands, to the question "And who did this ..." from their Turkic-speaking counterparts could receive the following answers:
1) This was done by Shagys Khan (Genghis Khan). In the understanding of the storyteller is some kind of famous Khan, whose lands were located east of those who were interviewed.
2) This was done by Batys-Khan (Batu, Batu). This is any Khan of lands located west of those who were interviewed. Batys - Western.
There may even be names like "Chinggis Khan Ayuppa Onun" or "Chinggis Khan Zuta urvan". But since the last components were unstable, only the first invariably constant part was remembered - CHINGIS KHAN.
European historians, having collected such a mass of claims to "Chinggis Khan" and "Batu Khan" and stupidly not understanding that the locals were telling travelers simply about their local showdowns with some eastern or western neighbors for 300-400 years, and considering that "Chinggis Khan" and "Batu Khan" are the names of specific people, they decided that such large-scale deeds could have been performed by exceptionally great people. And honestly mistaken, historians began to mold the myth of the "Great Genghis Khan" and his grandson "Batu Khan" (whom historians sent to the very west). And so they sent that even to his intra-family gatherings (kurultai) Batys categorically refused to go to the East, but he sent the conquered Russian princes literally yesterday. And what is surprising - the Mongolian relatives of Batys were not outraged, but took it for granted. Although our princes, even in Mongolian, no boom-boom.

[Usher]

What nonsense! ??????

[Seal]

Essentially, as I see it, you have nothing to say?

[Seal]

Quote: Usher

You interfere with everything in a heap and you cannot conduct a dialogue.

Disrespectful, first of all, do not stoop to tram rudeness. I understand that you are angry with the fact that you have nothing to answer in essence. But nevertheless, the rules of the local site do not welcome rudeness. Secondly. Do you seriously think that this comment of yours

What nonsense! ??????

- is it conducting a dialogue?
I've written that

For the Turks, sunrise is shygys, sunset is batys. Hence the East-Shygys, and the West-Batys. The main holy direction of the Turks (Kazakhs) was and remains the "East".

You can look at the map of Kazakhstan in Kazakh. Unfortunately, there are two interesting regions in Kazakhstan: "East Kazakhstan region" and "West Kazakhstan region". Just open the map and see how these areas are called in Kazakh.
And here's about yours:

I give an example

It only seems to you. In fact, you are uttering shamanistic incantations that "everything is"; "everything is"; "everything is".
No spells are required of you. You are required to cite at least one and only, but genuine document, clearly dated by the same 13th century, in which the term "Mongols" will be present and which, at least indirectly, can confirm the fantasies that you are spreading about the "Mongolian conquest of the half-world." How much time do you need to present such a document ???

[lot]

Great. Where to donate?

[agond]

Quote: lot

Great.

It's also great, in the legends of the modern Mongols there is not any mention of their great ancestors, either oral or written, probably no documents have survived ...

[Usher]

With what is this cabbage soup? Go to Mongolia, you will be surprised))) And the Japanese even named the winds in honor of these events. You don't doubt Japanese history, do you? Or the stories of China, Korea, India, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Israel, Egypt, Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, Russia, Poland, Hungary, Vietnam or all of these countries dreamed Mongols who came to visit them in the 13th century? I think your opinion is not taken into account at all)))

[Seal]

Quote: Usher

The Japanese even named the winds after these events.

What kind of "these"? The Japanese called the wind divine because this wind destroyed the ships of the conquerors who sailed from China. No Mongols were originally mentioned.

Or the stories of China, Korea, India, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Israel, Egypt, Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, Russia, Poland, Hungary, Vietnam or all these countries dreamed of Mongols who came to visit them in the 13th century?

Why so much pathos from scratch? It is quite enough to cite at least one documentary historical source from any of the countries listed by you, clearly subsidized by the same 13th century, in which the "Mongols" would be mentioned.

[Seal]

Before embarrassing yourself, you would have bothered to find out what a "documentary historical source" and a "narrative historical source" are and how they differ.
Further. Do you even know a little bit what "The Secret Legend" is?
Or maybe you know the handwriting of Rashid ad Din?
By the way, here is some information about the origin of what is called the "Secret Legend" in order to provide you with an educational program.

[Usher]

What did you show me? Are you showing some kind of nonsense on purpose? What's this? Where did it come from and who wrote it?
What did you say about the shame? Why are you so zvizdet go to Mongolia and China! And tell the locals that they are fictional and their whole story is fictional. What are you arrogant.

[Seal]

I showed you what you did not know. Namely - the origin of Yuan-chao bi-shi. What do you call "The Secret Legend of the Mongols". I showed you that all this so-called "Secret Legend" is actually just a compilation of various texts, performed by the Chinese textual scholar Gu Guang-Tsi.
And in China they are well aware of this.
But in Mongolia, of course, the cult of Genghis Khan is being promoted, which brings the rather poor country of Mongolia hundreds of millions of dollars a year. If not more. But the Mongols have a problem, noted by our Cossacks in the 17th century.
An unsubscribe to the Stolnik and Voevoda Fyodor Dementievich Voeikov, from the Amur's son sent in 1681 to review the Amur - Boyarsky Ignaty Milovanov.

Sovereign Tsar I, Grand Duke Feodor Alekseevich, All Great and Small and White Russia, Autocrat Stolnik, and Voevoda Fyodor Dementievich Ignashak Milovanov beats with his forehead. Last April 189, on the 26th day, by the Decree of the Great Sovereign, Ignashka ordered me to go from the Nerchinsk prison down the Shilka and along the Amur rivers, and along the Zeya river go up to the new Zeya prison and to the Selinba river, and ordered to inspect and describe well, in what places along the Zeya and along the Selinba the stockades are located and yasashny huts, and at the mouth of the Selinby river is it proper for the stockade to be and is there a grain-growing place?
........
And along the Zeya and along the Selinba rivers there is a horomnago and a courtyard and every forest, there is a lot of water to melt, but on the other side of the Zeya there are a lot of meadow old arable lands, but there are no yalans, and there is iron ore in the white mountains from the mouth of the Zeya to Selinba on a half-road ; from the mouth of the Zeya along the Amur down to ride a horse half a day, all the meadows and old arable lands to that city, and the city is earthen, foreigners call him, Aygun, and by majesty that city near the Amur River is five tithes, and from the Amur it crossed with a tithe, and inside that city a small city, all four walls by tithes, and from the field the wall is three fathoms high, and in a low place the height is two fathoms printed, and how the city walls are drawn and that is written in the drawing, and near the city there are many old arable lands and below the city there is a ferry, Daurian people are transported, who travel to the Selinba river for yasashnago collection and to bargain and trade; and the ferry is below the city, half a day ride on horseback, there are always boats and boats, and with the ferry it is 6 days to go to the Daurian residential people, according to the tale of the Daurian people. And I asked Ignashka about that city from the Daurian people, and they say who lived here and owned and what kind of people lived with them. they do not know about those people, and there are no memorials, and where those people have gone.

That is, the locals have nothing about the city, which is not yet old, as it has been preserved quite well, perhaps it functioned at the beginning of the 17th century, since the Cossacks noted that arable land is still visible near the city:

the city is a small city, all four walls are tithe each, and from the field the wall is three fathoms high, and in a low place the height is two fathoms of printed matter, but how the city walls are drawn and that is written in the drawing, and there are many old arable lands near the city and below the city there is a transport

do not know anything, and they do not keep notes (memorials).
And you say that the Mongols should be mindful of the affairs of the 13th century.

[Usher]

No oral or written? You probably live on the moon, my friend?

[48njkz]

I would like to know who invented the nonsense with the Tatar-Mongol yoke, which did not exist in nature.

[agond]

Once at the Chinese wall, the loopholes face the walls to the south, and the stairs for the defenders of the wall are located on the north side. then it was built by the Mongols ..

[Usher]

You were there? You've seen?

[Usher]

This is a fact, this is history. And not nonsense. Do you know exactly what existed?

[Seal]

Alternatives, alternatives. Admirers of Great Mongolia are, first of all, alternativeists. Since no narrative source at first spoke about the Mongols, but exclusively about the Tatars. Then the European alternatives, to whom the Tatars (in 1814 the Tatars entered Paris as part of our army) seemed too European type, decided to add Mongols to the Tatars. It goes without saying that no one asked the Hulk themselves, although they were considered "Mongols". The term "Tatar-Mongols" is not in the Russian chronicles, neither is V.N. Tatishchev, nor N.M. Karamzin ... The term "Tatar-Mongols" itself is neither a self-name nor an ethnonym of the peoples of Mongolia (Khalkha, Oirats). This is an artificial, armchair term "Tatar-Mongols", first introduced by P. Naumov in 1823. Since a lot of time has passed since then, the followers of the then alternatives now consider themselves "classics".
Alternative liars even claim that "history is not science" ???? Wow ??? So the great German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer is an alternative liar ??? First, history, like many other concepts, is a philosophical concept. That is, introduced by philosophers. Accordingly, it was the philosophers who established the criteria for the correspondence of one or another academic discipline to the proud title of "science". So the great German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer in his immortal work "The World as Will and Representation" more than convincingly showed that history cannot be attributed to the concept of "science", since it does not meet two basic criteria that each science must meet.
Fans of "Great Mongolia" are trying to get out, they say, in the days of Schopenhauer, history was really not a science, but in the 20th, and even more so in the 21st century, much has changed and now "history" is supposedly a full-fledged science, especially since academicians, doctors and candidates from history in the 20th and 21st centuries, tens of thousands have indeed appeared.
But these liars are missing two points.
First. Since the time of Schopenhauer, nothing has fundamentally changed in history. So, on the little things. For example, at the end of the 19th century, historians introduced the "Hittites" into the so-called "scientific turnover", without which history had done well before.
Second. Academicians, doctors and candidates from ufology, dianetics, astrology and others are no less, and probably more than academicians, doctors and candidates from history.
Yes, and more. In fact, all these terms are name-calling: "alternatives"; "non-alternatives"; "old chronologists"; "new chronology" and so on - this is all just a circus in order to attract as many people as possible, to whom you can sell your art books.
In fact, the struggle of the "old chronologists" with the "new chronologists", or how else can one say the struggle of the admirers of "Great Mongolia" with the admirers of "Great Tataria" - this is the struggle of the Nanai boys. They can no longer live without each other and represent two hands of one body. Well, or they represent two heads of the same Serpent Gorynych, who quarrel with each other and spit at each other.
But by and large, both those (admirers of Great Mongolia) and others (admirers of Great Tataria) are equally "hrenologists". For documentary historical sources, on which they build their castles in the air, neither the first nor the second. Both of them have only one narrative, it is not known when and it is not known by whom it was actually written. Since mankind does not know the handwriting of any of the so-called "ancient authors", including the handwriting of Rashid ad-Din himself.
However, mankind also does not know the handwriting of any of the so-called "ancient authors".

[Igor Litvin]

In general, there are many questions about the "Mongol-Tatars". I suggest that forum visitors determine on the image of the battle of Legnica - where are the Mongol knights, and where are the European ones:
And at the same time try to understand in what language the "Mongols" shouted "save yourself! save yourself!" , sowing panic and prompting the Poles to retreat.

[Igor Litvin]

Whoever cannot separate the Mongol knights from the European ones, there is a hint: the fallen European knights go to heaven, the Mongol ones go to the underworld