Military Review

“I don’t think any Western army would survive Stalingrad” (Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty)

100

In August, the 70 anniversary of the beginning of the Battle of Stalingrad - a brutal and ruthless siege, is celebrated, which eventually turned out to be the main point of psychological and military breakthrough in World War II.

Radio Liberty correspondent Koylin O'Connor speaks with a prominent British historian, the author of Stalingrad, Anthony Beevor.

RS: Do you think that books like yours played a role in correcting the bias in the presentation of facts about the Second World War, that is, before the 1970-ies. история The wars in the English-speaking world focused mainly on the Western Front, while the Eastern Front did not receive the deserved attention? Has the attitude of the West to this war changed at all?

Anthony Beevor: I believe that in a great degree yes. And this is not just a question of the Eastern Front, which, I believe, was shamefully abandoned by Western historians. It is also a matter of secrecy, which was maintained during the Cold War by the Soviet Union and the non-provision of Western historians for their access to archives.

RS: What place will you give to the Battle of Stalingrad in its influence on the course of WWII and its final result?

Beevor: The main thing in the Battle of Stalingrad was that psychologically it became the turning point of the war. Both for the Red Army and for the Wehrmacht, it became quite clear that the movement would now be to the West, and in the end Berlin would suffer the same fate as Stalingrad.

In my opinion, even today it is extremely significant that on the walls of the Reichstag you can see inscriptions of Russian soldiers with the words “Stalingrad-Berlin”. In their understanding, these two cities were very much connected.

I remember one thing that struck me most — how, after a victory, an elderly Russian colonel shouted at a column coming out of Stalingrad, screeching German prisoners of war with frostbitten legs, pointing at the ruins around: “This is Berlin!”

RS: Did the brutality and the atrocities of the fighting in Stalingrad have a significant relation to the fact that they, in fact, were the confrontation of two totalitarian armies, in other words, combat syndrome, surrender, etc. - simply were not such phenomena to which you can close your eyes?

Beevor: I don’t think any Western army would survive Stalingrad. In order for the troops to remain in their positions, truly ruthless forms of discipline were required, especially at the early stage of the battle, when in fact it seemed that everything was bursting at the seams.

It turned out that a total of about 13500 [Soviet soldiers] were executed by their own, the Red Army - during the battle, this was usually done by SMERSH or by special units of the NKVD. The troop detachments stood behind the troops to prevent them from withdrawing.

It was an extraordinary mixture of courage and coercion. There were terrifying reports about how soldiers were executed. Sometimes they were not even shot, as it should be, because the firing squad was partially intoxicated or something else. In such cases, they used to get out of the crater from the projectile, where their bodies were dumped, appeared outside, and they were shot again. So there were some really scary parties to this event.

But it is from this extraordinary contrast that it can never be generalized. It can not be said that the soldiers in Stalingrad held out only because of the harsh discipline. There was a very sincere idealism and the most genuine determination to fight on - and an amazing level of self-sacrifice. As I said, I don’t think that any Western army - British, French or American - would have survived in Stalingrad at all or kept there on the western bank of the Volga - unlike the Red Army, which did it.

PHOTO GALLERY: Battle of Stalingrad

The massive bombardment of Stalingrad from the air at the beginning of the battle in August turned many parts of the city into ruins.





This is how the main railway station of Stalingrad looked at the end of 1942.


However, the destruction of Stalingrad did not help the Germans to take the city, who were stuck in street fighting battling among the ruins of buildings


Russian nurse bandages a wounded soldier during a street skirmish in Stalingrad. During the siege, female doctors and nurses were often in the thick of battle


Commissioner Nikita Khrushchev (left) discusses tactical issues with the commander of the Southern (Stalingrad) Front of the Red Army, General Andrei Eremenko (second from left) and other officers
“I don’t think any Western army would survive Stalingrad” (Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty)


Simple, but terrifically effective Katyusha rocket launchers put fear into the German forces and undermined their morale.


Downed German fighter lies among the ruins of Stalingrad. During the siege, large-scale air battles flared up in the sky over the city.


The cruel conditions in which the battle was going on were aggravated by the harsh Russian winter.


In the end, the Soviet armed forces surrounded the Germans in Stalingrad, thereby predetermining the fate of Hitler's 6 Army


Many Germans have preferred to the Soviet captivity to fight to the bitter end


Soviet officers pass by German prisoners of war at the moment when the battle enters its final stage.


Under the conditions of exhaustion of provisions, the majority of Germans were exhausted and exhausted by the time of the end of hostilities.


Of the estimated 110 of thousands of German prisoners of war captured in Stalingrad, only 6 of thousands returned to Germany


Soviet soldier triumphantly raises the flag over Stalingrad in February 1943


RS: While reading your book about Stalingrad, I was surprised to find out that many Russians fought on the German side ...

Beevor: A total of about a million Russians or representatives of other Soviet nationalities served on the German side in one form or another. Then the majority of these people called "hiwi" - Hilfswilliger [him. “Willing to help”] - or auxiliary volunteers. In many cases, they were not real volunteers. They were more or less forcibly recruited prisoners of war in camps, because they suffered from hunger, and they were offered some kind of food. In fact, in many cases they were used as working cattle or for trenching.

After the Stalingrad cauldron was liquidated, some of them — knowing that they would be killed by their own — took weapon in the hands and often fought against their own. And, apparently, their fate is a question that is definitely not disclosed in the archives. I heard that many of them were not even shot subsequently, but that they were beaten to death on orders not to transfer cartridges to them. Someone, they said, was forced to lie on the road under walking Tanks.

Of course, revenge against them was really cruel. And it could not be attributed solely to the account of the Soviet authorities. That was the mood of the majority of the Red Army soldiers of the time. They saw in them the most disgusting traitors who could only be imagined. And that is why they would gladly take part in the khivi and Russian killings in German military uniforms.

RS: Taking into account the more or less complete destruction of the military industry of Stalingrad, as well as the fact that Germany, by 1942, already controlled the vast expanses of Soviet territory, what prompted the Germans to devote so much force to the capture of the city? Did it make any sense to militarily their desire to conquer Stalingrad?

Beevor: No, absolutely not [...] Only when Hitler began to have doubts about achieving his goal of capturing the oil fields of the Caucasus, he began to actively turn his attention to a symbol of victory, rather than purely military, in a fairly typical manner - if so please - the goal. And Stalingrad, since it bears the name of Stalin, could at least symbolize the form of victory.

Due to the fact that Stalingrad is located on the Volga, named after Stalin, Hitler was determined to take it at any cost. And it all continued ... I mean that the most disastrous moment, which actually predetermined the fate of the 6 Army, took place in November, when Hitler ordered Paulus to make the last attempt to capture Stalingrad and even ordered him to use tank crews as infantry " on my own two. " Yes, it was absolutely insane ...

RS: Did Hitler's Stalingrad break down psychologically?

Beevor: He was the point of psychological break for everyone, I think. It became noticeable how Nazi propaganda suddenly shifted from promises of a final victory to the actual intimidation of the Germans by the consequences of defeat. By what was done to the Soviet Union, it was quite understandable - the retribution would be terrible. So, for this reason, Germany could only fight to the last.

RS: Another aspect of Stalingrad that I thought was particularly interesting was the participation of women in the hostilities on the Soviet side, many of them right on the front line. Is it something completely unique to that battle?

Beevor: No, it was not unique to that battle. It is rather curious that in fact many more women served later in subsequent battles.

[...]

In Stalingrad, there were a large number of women who served with incredible courage. Mostly they were young girls - right from school, - who worked as nurses and literally pulled men from the firing line. Many of them died. For young women of their age, they displayed amazing courage.

Others fought pilots - the so-called "night witches", as the Germans christened them. These were young women, confined to a separate regiment, who controlled such small biplanes. They turned off their engines and planned over the German trenches, dropped bombs, turned on the engines again and immediately flew away.

There were also a certain number of women - in fact very small - who served in tanks.

But in Stalingrad there were no female snipers. I am afraid that the film “The Enemy at the Gates”, from which it follows that women worked as snipers, as in the case of Rachel Weiss, simply does not correspond to reality.

Female snipers appeared later. The first sniper school for women was organized in February 1943, just after the Battle of Stalingrad. And then there were a large number of female snipers who actually served on many fronts.

RS: You are not annoyed by how mass culture in recent years has appropriated Stalingrad, for example, films like “The Enemy at the Gates”, or the extremely popular computer game “Call of Duty“, the creators of which claim to have done everything possible to recreate the situation on the battlefield in Stalingrad? Do you think they distort the public perception of that battle? Or maybe they at least encourage interest in the subject ...

Beevor: Well, I think Stalingrad has become a very significant symbol. I do not like to use the word "cult", but its element is present, in part because it was one of the most desperate battles with street fighting in the very center of the city. It seems to me that it attracts with its cinematic potential, and with regard to popular culture, with this whole theme, snipers and the like.

[...]

Stalingrad turned into one huge myth. In general, Jean-Jacques Annaud, the director of Enemy at the Gates, told me somehow: “But Anthony, who can tell where the myth begins and the truth ends?” ... I don’t know if this is an excuse for play around with the story, or a variation of the sayings about the story, what the drawbar. I'm afraid this is one of the problems stemming from the fact that the demands of Hollywood and the entertainment industry are fundamentally completely incompatible with the needs of history.

RS: Are there any big differences between how Stalingrad is perceived in Russia and how it is seen in Germany and in other countries?

Beevor: Well, I think both sides will agree on the general scheme and circumstances of the incident, as well as specific dates. I do not think that there is any significant discrepancy. But it is obvious that there are huge differences in the analysis and approach to the moral state of their own troops, their mindsets and the like. Any country will inevitably look at one or another aspect of the Second War through the prism of its own, and not of any other views.

The main focus on the Soviet side will be on heroism. As for coercion, discipline, troopers and everything else - you will not find anything special about these issues in any Russian statement of the battle history.

On the German side, you will not find very much about what has been done in relation to the civilian population, as well as how Russian civilians captured on the German side of the front line were treated.

Therefore, there will definitely be pain points, let's say, that will not be noticed by each of the parties.

[...]

From the point of view of Russians, Stalingrad is the great personification of Russian heroism and the great Soviet contribution to the defeat of the fascist beast and everything that follows from this. In this sense, Russian propaganda in relation to this particular aspect is very slightly different from the Soviet ...

I suppose it was relevant for the German side to see in this a lot more tragic. In almost every German book on this subject, the word “tragedy” appears somewhere in the table of contents. And, of course, from the German point of view, it was a tragedy that Hitler brought on the German people with his stubbornness and obsessive ideas. And that it was a completely unnecessary defeat.

RS: Perhaps this is a rather superficial question, but what, in your opinion, is the legacy of Stalingrad that remains after 70 years after the events themselves?

Beevor: I do not think that the legacy, if you like, should certainly be highly instructive, since it has become a kind of symbol. Like many other historical parallels, they love to abuse. I mean that almost every newspaper in the country managed to contact me before the war in Iraq. It was amazing - one by one they were called and asked if I could not write an article about why the battle for Baghdad should become similar to the Stalingrad one. And I had to explain time after time that she would not be anything that would remind her. But I am afraid that this is how, and quite often, the legacy, oddly enough, turns into debt, because people become obsessed with the past and for some reason believe that history should repeat. History never repeats itself.

I think using the example of certain political leaders like George W. Bush, comparing September's 11 with Pearl Harbor, or Tony Blair trying to put Saddam Hussein and Hitler on a par with one another, we saw how the threat of World War II turned into such a dominant landmark that already became truly dangerous - not only in a political sense, as it influences strategic decisions, but also because they are inclined to be guided by the media.

It's amazing how newspapers like to think with simple, straightforward parallels, which can be enlightened by readers, but in practice they are always deceptive and, as a rule, very dangerous.
Originator:
http://www.rferl.org/
100 comments
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  1. Vanek
    Vanek 19 September 2012 07: 09
    +34
    I will say one thing:

    - ETERNAL MEMORY OF THE SOVIET SOLDIER, EVERY SOLDIER THANKS TO WHICH I NOW HERE.
    1. str73
      str73 19 September 2012 08: 40
      +31
      Sorry, but one caveat: Eternal glory and memory to the Soviet soldier!
      1. bairat
        bairat 19 September 2012 09: 07
        +2
        they don’t need to apologize, but beat in the face.
        1. Mr. Truth
          Mr. Truth 19 September 2012 11: 40
          0
          bairat,
          Ask the Germans with whom they fought, with advice or with Russians, they will answer you more clearly.
          1. bairat
            bairat 19 September 2012 12: 55
            0
            Who are you, German? Without clues I know who my grandfathers fought with.
      2. patline
        patline 19 September 2012 10: 13
        +11
        Author mixed truth and lies. These are the "historians" who come up with HISTORY.
        Narrator-distortion to flick ...
        1. Hans grohman
          Hans grohman 19 September 2012 13: 53
          +8
          Nonsense-nonsense-nonsense, a thousand times nonsense !!! Snack and not an article, 12500 shot by their troops - where the numbers come from, bro?
          I'm surprised that such shit as this article was given a "+" by so many readers, and my "-" was the first. Radio Liberty - it sounds rotten !!
          1. Rowicz
            Rowicz 19 September 2012 14: 57
            +7
            I agree with you completely, especially the article touched about the drunken firing squads of the NKVD and "Khivi" under the tracks of tanks "
            1. Ares1
              Ares1 19 September 2012 16: 00
              +6
              And not only drunk, but also "... or something else ...". Under a compote of ecstasy and heroin. Oh, and the liver of a dog! Some g ..., not information. Sheep, not a historian. 1000 "Khivi" what is worth ...
          2. starshina78
            starshina78 19 September 2012 20: 10
            +3
            You are probably young? You didn’t meet with the front-line soldiers, like we were former pioneers and October activists, your father, grandfather, uncle didn’t fight, and you didn’t listen with your mouth open, stories, so to speak firsthand. And our generation, born in the first half of the fifties, and the subsequent ones, who went all the way from October to Komsomolets, and some to party tickets, found front-line soldiers passing from Moscow and Brest to Berlin. We had meetings at which they told how they fought, but at such meetings they did not talk about the Vlasovites, policemen and other abominations, and most importantly, what they did to them when they were captured. But our fathers, grandfathers, uncles told us, and they talked about everything, and about detachments, and about executions (they shot even those who remained in the trenches when the company went on the attack). My uncle fought on my mother’s side since June 22 in the cavalry, my cousins ​​fought from the first days (some in intelligence, some in infantry, some driver), my father was drafted at the age of 1943 from December 17, and from June 1944 He fought for a year, and then until 1950 he fought in Lithuania. So I have first-person information, so to speak. Something the author and lied, but 80 percent of the truth is.
            1. vvvvv
              vvvvv 19 September 2012 20: 44
              0
              So many lies have already been told against Russia and so much evil has been done that now EVEN JUST IN FAIRY IS OUR RIGHT TO SPEAK AND DO what we deem necessary, and not as it was or is in fact and whether it is harsh or excessive. This is already justified only for balance. We need consequences for all spiteful critics and malicious ones, otherwise, without science for the future, they will not calm down. It is necessary for them all "on the ears".
            2. valokordin
              valokordin 19 September 2012 23: 25
              +1
              Petty Officer, you, too, lied that all the front-line soldiers told you, as a rule, they try and did not talk about the war, and those who ranted a lot about their exploits and military everyday life do not believe in everything. My father did not fight, but was a flight instructor, but for six months he commanded a penal company in 6, and he really did not like to talk about the war, and answered my questions briefly that there were no foreign detachments, they did not shoot commanders in the back, and no one was shot. But the losses were large of 1944 companies of the company after the attack remained a hundred, the rest were either killed or injured. He knew one well who fought in Stalingrad, and about the detachment he said that they had caught deserters and lost their orientation in the rear and sent them to the front line. There was no time to judge and shoot. A neighbor was telling near Stalingrad that one combat pilot was not a coward by the name of Ershov, in order to warm himself with a lady he broke on a BANO plane, he was tried by a tribunal, he was sentenced to death and publicly shot him before the formation of the regiment. Everyone felt sorry for the guy, and the special officer was removed from the unit.
            3. Stormtrooper
              Stormtrooper 20 September 2012 00: 28
              0
              And now let’s digress from the stories of obscure grandfathers (which cannot be verified and taken for granted, too) and turn to documents from archives showing the real, and not fictional, affairs of detachments.

              By 1941 (not yet detachments, but troops for the protection of the front of the front):

              http://army.lv/ru/Zagradotryadi-vimisel-i-realnost/774/374

              By 1942:

              http://army.armor.kiev.ua/hist/zagradotrad.shtml

              Documents are too large to cite. Study.
            4. Hans grohman
              Hans grohman 20 September 2012 12: 13
              0
              Quote: starshina78
              You are probably young?

              Well, not a WWII veteran, however, like you. Further, they would bother to raise information on detachments - they would not look ridiculous (namely, this is what you look like). It may be difficult for you to believe this, but some of the veterans are still alive and willingly communicate with young people - last year, PERSONALLY talked with a veteran Pinskaya (Subsequently the Dnieper Flotilla). The war, of course, is such - it’s big, big and different, I’ll say more about each one’s own. But one thing is particular and subjective perception, and the other facts.
              By the way, can you still tell us the tearful story that all those who left the NKVD were put in concentration camps?
          3. Stary oper
            Stary oper 19 September 2012 22: 55
            0
            Hans grohman
            Have you heard about Order No. 28 of the People’s Commissar of Defense of the USSR of July 1942, 227?
            If not, ask at your leisure.
            1. valokordin
              valokordin 19 September 2012 23: 30
              +1
              A normal order "Not a step back", and what had to be ordered to surrender and remember about human rights, or to appeal to the European Parliament, so Hitler, he also included all of Europe with the exception of England.
              1. Stary oper
                Stary oper 20 September 2012 18: 44
                0
                valokordin.
                And I'm not saying anything about whether such an order was needed or not, if you noticed. The situation in which this order was issued was extremely difficult. And by the way, not without the fault of Comrade. Stalin, who decided after the victory near Moscow that he would now drag the Germans across the table with his face and ordered the Kharkov operation to begin. It is known that it ended with the losses of 270 thousand people, of which 171 thousand irretrievably. This is precisely what caused the terrible summer retreat and order No. 227.
            2. Stormtrooper
              Stormtrooper 20 September 2012 00: 32
              +1
              And what is so terrible in this order? The bad news is that this Order was not approved at the beginning of the war. Then, you see, they would have rested on the whole front, as in the Demyansky cauldron, and they would not have to roll back to the lower Volga, and millions of people would not fall into the clutches of the Nazis with good.

              All armies had an analogue of detachments, and so did the allies. The German counterpart is Feljandarmeria.
            3. Hans grohman
              Hans grohman 20 September 2012 12: 17
              +1
              Dear, I not only heard, I even (do not believe it), ital it completely (not the original, of course). But you, a colleague, apparently did not bother to do this.
              1. Stary oper
                Stary oper 20 September 2012 18: 56
                -2
                Hans Grohman.
                It's so wonderful, since you've read it. This means that you will not deny the question of creating barrage detachments and their use of weapons against retreating troops (your own). The fact that this Western historian distorts reality somewhat, I do not argue, but he still speaks about the role of the Red Army in the victory over fascism and this is no longer a bad thing, for the Western man in the street knows about the Second World War as follows: Hitler staged a Holocaust and to save poor Jews from total annihilation, the United States and Great Britain landed on the continent and defeated Nazism by heroic efforts. And the Russians took advantage of the situation and came to divide Germany into pieces. :) And only the old Germans, when they talk, having learned that I am Russian, hide their eyes and say: "Yes, we are to blame ..."
          4. Stormtrooper
            Stormtrooper 20 September 2012 00: 16
            +2
            So take a closer look at the text. The interlocutor of Radio Liberty is That Beevor, the very famous British forger of history, who started the ritual with a tambourine around a billion raped and eaten German women. The stump is clear that the text will also be appropriate.

            To distribute Beevor's books to the "zones" for hand-rolls, to hand over Beevor himself to the fertilizer plant as raw materials.
            1. Stary oper
              Stary oper 20 September 2012 19: 04
              -1
              Storm Trooper.
              Well, my friend, you are just our Gogol, you know ... :) He, as you know, was also a fan of hyperbole. :) Billions of raped German women is something. :) I don't think this author is that stupid. And about the fact that our German women were raped ... It happened. It was ... Despite, by the way, the strictest order for the army. When I was writing "Berlin History" (such a short story about the last days of the war) I turned over a lot of historical materials, including on this topic.
      3. Bekzat
        Bekzat 19 September 2012 17: 40
        +2
        ETERNAL GLORY TO THE SOVIET SOLDIER !!! GIVING BLOOD AND LIFE FOR OUR LIFE !!!
  2. Igarr
    Igarr 19 September 2012 07: 23
    +23
    Interesting interview.
    What is noteworthy - the German army - is not considered an army of the West,
    "..As I said, I do not believe that any Western army - whether british, french or american - generally would have survived in Stalingrad or stayed there on the western bank of the Volga .. "
    And, even though Anthony Bivor speaks of a turn to history ..... how he absorbed .. a mix of fairy tales about the terrible SMERSH, etc. - and lives with porridge in his head.
    ".. fate (hivi - inserted) is a question that is definitely not disclosed in the archives. I heard that many of them were not even shot afterwards, but by order of being beaten to deathso as not to transfer cartridges to them. "
    Many have read such Orders - ..beat to death.
    And this is a serious historian writes.
    And here we are .. daggers rumble - Genghis Khan, the Horde.
    ...
    Glory to our guys!
    My uncle began with Stalingrad in 1942.
    1. aktanir
      aktanir 19 September 2012 08: 10
      -7
      The interview is great! The most objective, without bias.
      1. dmb
        dmb 19 September 2012 09: 43
        +5
        And why did I not become a historian (British). "And, apparently, their fate is a question that is definitely not disclosed in the archives. I heard that many of them were not even shot afterwards, but were beaten to death on orders so as not to transfer cartridges to them. , they said, forced to lie down on the road under the walking tanks. " I wonder in which pub the author heard this, and how much whiskey without soda did he and his companion take before? I've heard that Queen Elizabeth pees for herself at night. maybe it would also be worth sharing this discovery with the British. Very sincere about totalitarian armies. How much do we care about the democrats in Afghanistan and Iraq.
      2. valokordin
        valokordin 19 September 2012 23: 33
        0
        Aktanayru, the article is foul with elements of objectivity.
      3. Stormtrooper
        Stormtrooper 20 September 2012 00: 34
        0
        Colleague, this is Bivor. Sapienti sat, as they say. It is as if Baron Munchausen personally spoke about Stalingrad. And then, the baron probably would have lied less.
    2. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 19 September 2012 08: 16
      +2
      Quote: Igarr

      What is noteworthy - the German army - is not considered an army of the West,

      Well, how much is not considered, it is considered, only the German army was already raking there, but all the rest have not yet received, except for Napoleon, but Moscow didn’t dabble at that either.
      1. Leisure
        Leisure 19 September 2012 09: 10
        +1
        Hmm, Romanians, Italians were not mentioned at all. Type 3 grade.
        As usual, truth and fiction are mixed in one heap, terrible reading for the needs of the western man in the street. "Two totalitarian armies", and that says it all, nowadays fascists and communists are considered to be one and the same.
    3. Kaa
      Kaa 19 September 2012 09: 35
      +8
      Quote: Igarr
      Many have read such Orders - ..to beat to death.
      And this is a serious historian writes.
      And here we are .. daggers rumble - Genghis Khan, Horde

      And their psychology is so different from ours that sometimes it seems to me that we have a different number of chromosomes. Well, a Western man cannot imagine how, and, most importantly, why, to hold on to the LAST patron, because the latter, as a sign of contempt for the enemy, must be kept ... Seppuku performed by samurai (they are not Europeans, they have a special mentality ) - they resigned themselves to this, admire in some places, but the Russians, without "drunken and evil" detachments, by no means get involved in the wretched Western idea of ​​war - they have a primitive idea - we fight as long as there is a chance of victory, then an honorable surrender, we - “We don’t need an inch of someone else’s land, but we won’t give up our own top”, otherwise why live on our Former land, death is better ... something like that ...
      1. Colonel
        Colonel 19 September 2012 20: 00
        +2
        About three years ago I read his book "Stalingrad", or rather forced myself to read it to the end. The strongest impression is the disgust from the author's pity for the German soldiers who are tormented on the banks of the Volga (they are not allowed to celebrate Christmas) and from the author's bewilderment about how these Asians (our grandfathers) were able to squeeze these warriors. And attempts to explain this phenomenon from their own, British point of view. Very similar to the film "The Enemy at the Gates". There is one scene of transportation of replenishment across the Volga is worth something.
  3. Dmitriy69
    Dmitriy69 19 September 2012 07: 25
    +14
    only September 11 can be compared with Pearl Harbor, or Saddam Hussein and Hitler, who cannot understand and cannot imagine the full scale of what we call the GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR.
    1. Committee
      Committee 19 September 2012 07: 41
      +8
      Yes, and I also like references to the cold, and that our soldiers don't freeze? Are our Russians' skin particularly frost-resistant? We are ready to go for all sorts of inventions, just to belittle the feat of our people. "General frost" did not understand who to freeze!
      1. Vadivak
        Vadivak 19 September 2012 07: 53
        +1
        Quote: Committee
        and that our soldiers do not freeze?


        Ours for the frosts were always psychologically prepared, and the experience of 41 Germans was not taken into account again, the impudent and self-confident fascists were immeasurable, everyone dreamed of ending the war on the Volga
        1. Committee
          Committee 19 September 2012 08: 11
          +10
          Oh, well, here I do not agree, I’m also psychologically prepared for what will happen -30 in the winter, (this happens very often with us), but it’s still freezing every time like a dog !!!!
          1. Vadivak
            Vadivak 19 September 2012 08: 18
            +2
            Quote: Committee
            but still freezing every time like a dog !!!!


            The same story, although in youth it was different
      2. wasjasibirjac
        wasjasibirjac 19 September 2012 19: 04
        0
        and they heard a lot about Zadornov, about the frost and the attitude towards him from the Russians and others, from the West
    2. Trailer
      Trailer 19 September 2012 08: 18
      +11
      But the Americans had a Stalingrad option in Iraq. And the name of this glorious city is Falluja:

      It is generally accepted that, having dispersed the Iraqi army and hanging Saddam Hussein and his close associates, American troops are exclusively engaged in the fight against fanatics by terrorists and the protection of a young democratic state. However, the Iraq war is considered the most classified war in the world. The battle for Fallujah, or as the Americans call it, the Battle of Stalingrad in Iraq.

      The city of Fallujah is located 50 kilometers west of Baghdad. 20 years ago Fallujah was considered one of the most beautiful cities in the Middle East. Muslims called it the city of a mosque, because there were more than 200. However, after the arrival of the US military in Iraq, a city with a thousand-year history was almost wiped off the face of the earth. Fallujah turned into ruins. In the 2004 year, there were two of the largest battles in the history of the Iraq war. Specialists call them Stalingrad for American soldiers. Several US Marine Corps battalions, under the guise of tanks and aircraft, tried twice to storm this city and twice failed to defeat the poorly armed Iraqi partisans. To break their resistance, the Americans even had to give the order to use chemical weapons prohibited worldwide.


      April 2003, El Fallujah civilians take to the streets and hold mass demonstrations. They oppose entry into Iraq and demand that the 82 soldiers of the airborne division leave the city. In response, the American paratroopers open fire, they almost point-blank shoot a peaceful demonstration, resulting in the deaths of several hundred civilians, including old people, women and children. After the shooting of a peaceful demonstration, the city of Fallujah becomes the center of anti-American resistance.

      Partisans come here from all over the country. 31 March 2004 year, right in the center of the city, partisans ambush the convoy car transported by American soldiers. The car is blown up on a land mine, all who were in it die. The burnt bodies of Iraqi partisans are pulled out of the car and filmed all this on video. A few days later she will be sent to all major American television channels. The main slogan was: “Fallujah - a cemetery for the Americans!” Three days after this reprisal, the American command gives the order to storm the city. US Marine Corps begins special operation, code-named "Vigilant Determination."

      This was not likely, but the Iraqi rebels in four directions managed to repel the offensive by American troops. For three days of fierce battles, they will beat, think about these numbers, 11 of the most invincible and most reliable Abrams tanks, 2 F-16 aircraft, 11 combat helicopters, 5 unmanned reconnaissance aircraft, transport helicopter and 2 military vehicles. Assuming that the assault will fail as always, the command of the operation gives an order to begin a massive bombardment.

      And the city after several days was completely wiped off the face of the earth, there were only ruins and masses of victims among the civilian population, whom no one could figure out how many died in those days of the bombing. Almost all the victims had only burns, the consequence of which was the use of only one chemical weapon. In this battle alone, the Americans lost 1500 of thousands of soldiers, the loss of civilians cannot be established. Here is the price of a small victorious war in a distant land.
      1. Vanek
        Vanek 19 September 2012 08: 50
        +2
        Quote: Karavan
        But still the Stalingrad version


        I will not argue. But I’ll ask a question.

        - And in Fallujah were temperatures with negative values?
        1. Trailer
          Trailer 19 September 2012 08: 59
          +4
          In Fallujah there was an army of invaders with a false ideology, and an army of defenders of their homeland. There were mass killings of civilians by the invaders, the heroic struggle of the city’s defenders against their superior enemy. Well, what time of the year outside the window - I think, and in the heat, don't get high in a tank or bathe in phosphorus!
          1. Vanek
            Vanek 19 September 2012 09: 07
            +1
            Quote: Karavan
            Well, what time of the year outside the window - I think, and in the heat, don't get high in a tank or bathe in phosphorus!


            I have no more questions drinks
        2. Redpartyzan
          Redpartyzan 19 September 2012 09: 14
          +4
          Regarding the comparison of any battles with the Stalingrad, this is simply incorrect. In his memoirs and reflections, Zhukov writes that Montgomery came up to him and compared the operation under El Alamein with the Soviet operation uranium and the ring under Stalingrad. To which Zhukov politely explained as politely as possible that these operations are not comparable since in one of them the army group acted and in the other several fronts. The same applies to other comparisons. The scale is incommensurable.
          1. Stormtrooper
            Stormtrooper 20 September 2012 00: 36
            0
            Well it is clear. Nice guy Monty praised himself so sly. Not for the operation "Market Garden" to praise yourself ...
        3. wasjasibirjac
          wasjasibirjac 19 September 2012 19: 08
          0
          and fights continued with all sorts of stress for months? Fallujah - actually a slight clash
      2. wax
        wax 19 September 2012 13: 36
        0
        Pulls on Nuremberg and the gallows. However, for Vietnam too.
      3. aksakal
        aksakal 19 September 2012 14: 33
        0
        Quote: Karavan
        And the name of this glorious city is Falluja

        - The only glimpse of heroism among the Iraqis, also warriors to me. The Russians have such Fallujas - a favorite pastime and an old tradition from the time of the Mongol-Tatars and Kozelsk. And if Fallujah amer was too tough, it came down to carpet bombing with fofor bombs, then in Russia with its Stalingrad traditions, when all cities turn into such Fallujahs, there will be no direct intervention. In addition, the Russians have things that the Fallujans did not have, which means that there will be no phosphor carpet bombardment of the Russian Fallujas. Therefore, we relax and drink champagne. And so that there would be no options - from the Wahhabi Arabs, manpower and ground operations, and from Amers finance, military-resource and material, reconnaissance and other supplies (including air support), we support Shiite Iran, we again relax and drink champagne. As long as Iran is alive, the Wahhabis will only stir up little things in Dagestan by the little things; there will not be enough more.
        1. Trailer
          Trailer 19 September 2012 15: 14
          0
          Well, the scale is incomparable. In Iraq, the police operation of the strong over the weak. Then - War to the complete extermination of the nation!
    3. Bekzat
      Bekzat 19 September 2012 17: 43
      0
      SO THEY HAVE KONDRATYUK, AND THERE IS NO TRANSLATION OF THE WORD "FATHERLAND" !!!! THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT THE WORD IS "FATHERLAND" AND WHAT IT MEANS !!!
  4. grizzlir
    grizzlir 19 September 2012 07: 29
    +4
    But I think that the modern Russian generation and our modern army could bear what the people of the USSR in that war did.
    1. Trance
      Trance 19 September 2012 08: 17
      +3
      grizzlir,But I think that the modern Russian generation and our modern army could bear what the people of the USSR in that war did.

      Victor good morning wink
      I try to have a healthy criticism of what is happening today in our country, and I think we can. Despite the efforts of some forces, to decompose the national culture and nationality, every day there are more and more smart and ideological guys!

      Glory to our grandfathers who gave their lives in all the battles and came to Berlin !!!
      1. Trailer
        Trailer 19 September 2012 08: 27
        0
        With the quality of current nutrition! Do not kick hard, but for a short time - it would even benefit us. Wake up and recover!
      2. wax
        wax 19 September 2012 13: 43
        0
        While we can.
    2. Bismark
      Bismark 19 September 2012 10: 54
      0
      We touched on the sore issue of our modern generation, healthy youth are saturated with sports, and I can’t stand the will to win for the rest. Somehow I want to release an article about today's youth with its + and -.
      1. grizzlir
        grizzlir 19 September 2012 13: 56
        +2
        The problem is not even in the modern generation, the problem is the work of state structures in patriotic education of youth. Let's say people are ready to give their lives for the defense of their homeland from my point of view for two reasons. The first is the religious component. An example is the Japanese army in the Russian-Japanese war and the Second World War. war. The emperor was considered divine and it was an honor to give his life for the emperor. The same thing is observed in many radical religions of the modern world. Second, this is true love for his homeland and his people, for the land on which oh, it’s comfortable for you to live where you are a man with a capital letter. This we could observe during the Great Patriotic War on the part of our grandfathers and fathers, and no matter how blasphemous it sounds on the part of our enemies. The Germans probably no less believed in our ideals, They were ready to die for their Fuhrer. In modern Russia, everything is much more complicated. Those who own everything will not die for their homeland or send their children to death. They have something to lose and it’s much easier to stay in a quiet place. And those who have few, the same is not ready to give their lives and health for a country in which they cannot live normally. All this I observed using the example of the Chechen wars. There remains a thin layer of patriots and professional military men.
        1. Bismark
          Bismark 19 September 2012 19: 08
          -1
          You have not observed such a situation. crying
        2. Cosmonaut
          Cosmonaut 19 September 2012 21: 30
          0
          Here nifiga ... There is still a third reason, in my opinion, the most important is the family.
    3. Cosmonaut
      Cosmonaut 19 September 2012 21: 27
      0
      We can. For mom and grandmother.
      1. grizzlir
        grizzlir 20 September 2012 06: 47
        0
        Are you respected for your mother and grandmother in Chechnya eager to fight? Or in Ossetia?
  5. bask
    bask 19 September 2012 07: 32
    +6
    Both of my grandfathers fought in Stalingrad and survived. But the cousin’s grandfather, went to volunteer as a volunteer at the age of 17 and died. ETERNAL MEMORY TO ALL SOVIET SOLDIERS WHO HAVE PERFORMED THEIR YOUNG LIVES FOR THE MOTHERLAND !!! Modern German veterans and historians are trying to get poisoned. But the Germans behaved like cattle and there is no excuse for them. Not in hell in this life.
  6. Che
    Che 19 September 2012 07: 36
    +8
    It turned out that a total of about 13500 [Soviet soldiers] were executed by their own, the Red Army - during the battle, this was usually done by SMERSH or by special units of the NKVD. The troop detachments stood behind the troops to prevent them from withdrawing.

    Bust, I do not believe. Self-sacrifice was the people in the name of victory.

    Anthony Beevor: I believe that in a great degree yes. And this is not just a question of the Eastern Front, which, I believe, was shamefully abandoned by Western historians. It is also a matter of secrecy, which was maintained during the Cold War by the Soviet Union and the non-provision of Western historians for their access to archives.

    The crap information has always been open.


    I hope such a fate awaits any aggressor in the Slavic lands.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 September 2012 09: 22
      +5
      Quote: Che
      Bust, I do not believe. Self-sacrifice was the people in the name of victory.

      That's right, you do not believe. Because 3,14 is first-class.
      In the period from August 1 to October 1 (i.e. for 2 months) 15 649 people were detained on the Stalingrad Front:
      244 person arrested;
      278 people shot;
      sent to penal companies 218 people;
      sent to penal battalions 42 person;
      returned to their units and to the person’s 14 833 shipping points.
      - Information from the NGO NKVD STF in the NOO of the NKVD of the USSR on the activities of the barrage detachments of the Stalingrad and Don fronts not earlier than October October 15NXX
      So it comes out - the defensive part of the Stalingrad battle continued from July 12 to November 19, 1942, i .e. four months and a little. And what, you can believe that 13,5 thousand people were shot in a little over four months, of which in the hottest 2 months - August-September - only 278 people ?! fool
      (I twist my finger to my temple, of course, I am not yours :)))
    2. Stormtrooper
      Stormtrooper 20 September 2012 00: 39
      0
      At Bivor, as always, ears of incompetence stick out from almost anywhere:

      Quote: Che
      it was usually done SMERSH


      Those. cunning Russians employed a special service in Stalingrad, which was formed only in 1943. What insidiousness!
  7. Optics
    Optics 19 September 2012 07: 46
    +13
    This historian would go on ..... much less - the British ... The name of my grandfather on Mamaev Kurgan at the Eternal Flame. It’s not for these freaks to talk about what happened in our country ... Then, in 45-46, under the same Stalingrad, soldiers to the last bolt equipped Lendlis equipment and sent it to the same British and Americans, and they sent them right away for re-melting ... (this is so, remark). According to their ideas, what in the USSR, what in Russia - some imites ... some shoot, others shoot ... They would sit with their queen and not climb out ...
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak 19 September 2012 07: 55
      +7
      Quote: Optics
      The name of my grandfather on Mamaev Kurgan at the Eternal Flame.


      Lucky, you can bow, but mine at 41 with my 141 GAP 55 SD went to the rescue of the Brest Fortress, and without a trace ....
    2. Committee
      Committee 19 September 2012 08: 22
      +1
      And the queen is not theirs! There is no English crown in nature (!) And the Scottish crown is the Queen of England and is stored in Edinburgh, the capital of Scotland.
    3. JonnyT
      JonnyT 19 September 2012 09: 21
      +2
      Quote: Optics
      This historian would go on ..... the more so - the British ...


      100%
      In my opinion, a lot of the article is not true
      But there were no female snipers in Stalingrad.
      a lie ... my friend’s grandmother was a sniper there ........ and about XIVI and foreign troops there is a big exaggeration .... XIVI did not fight, but only worked ........
      Britain is not our ally! Their historians too!
    4. wax
      wax 19 September 2012 13: 48
      0
      For them, objectivity is just a game in favor of their West. They’ll add a barrel of tar to any spoon of honey: you still need to focus on the Asiatic Russians (therefore, they say, and only they can survive).
  8. BARKAS
    BARKAS 19 September 2012 08: 13
    +2
    In the German archives of information about actions on the eastern front no less than in the Soviet ones, the information there seems to be something that is very unsuitable for modern Western historians and is stubbornly hushed up.
  9. Trailer
    Trailer 19 September 2012 08: 21
    +1
    I’m afraid that the film “Enemy at the Gates”, from which it follows that women worked as snipers, as in the case of Rachel Weiss, is simply not true.

    And I naively thought that the whole film is pure truth! By the way, is it really impossible to believe such shots of a de-energized besieged hungry city?
  10. erased
    erased 19 September 2012 08: 31
    +15
    Ah, what a fellow this super-author!
    But!!
    1. The detachments were divided into army and NKVD, they really detained the fugitives from the front line, but they didn’t shoot everyone in a row. Statistics of their work are in the documents and they have long been open. A very small percentage of the detainees was referred to the tribunal for a capital punishment. At the core, the fugitives returned to the front line, to new units, to hospitals. Only initiators of flight, malicious alarmists fell under the hand.
    And now for the sake of equality - the most cruel orders of the GERMAN army provided for the execution for withdrawing from their positions without an order! It started back in winter 41-42. And the German penalty units (assault) were also missing. By the way, the Germans also shot the fugitives from Stalingrad without trial.
    2. The deserters and scum who fought for the Germans did not wait for mercy. However!! Not everyone was shot, often sent to camps. And after the war, an amnesty came out to these very enemies, policemen, soldiers of the Wehrmacht! 6 (six) years of forced labor eviction! And that’s all! And to blame the fighters of the advanced units for that they slapped the reptile they came across with me and others will not turn their tongue! in Europe, these were treated much more harshly. The author mentions alleged rumors - they crushed tanks. scored with sticks. And they didn’t boil up with shelves? Another duck under the guise of hearing there!
    3. Women! A low bow to all of them, everyone who fought at the front, drove a tank, raised a plane into the sky, shot from a sniper, bandaged under bombs and bullets, worked in the rear of the factory, plowed for herself, and even raised children and waited for her husband! Only ours were capable of this, only ours survived it!
    The whole people fought against the Germans because the Germans wanted to destroy the entire people of the Soviet Union!
    4. What other army could survive Stalingrad? Yes, only the army of my homeland! Here the author is right.

    Total. An attempt to rethink the results and morality of the Great Patriotic War is one of the parts of the plan to discredit the Soviet Union and now Russia in order to transfer it to the category of aggressors and totalitarian cyclops. Old song, already tired. But in the West, a very relevant topic, with a squeal and hooting supported in the country of the former Warsaw Pact and especially in the Baltic states. However, as in Ukraine.
    Only here the results of this approach to history can be directly opposite to the expected ones. Not all voles and slaps of the Rus are forgiving, sometime they will answer in a purely Slavic style - the whole jaw with a head for a tooth!
    1. DYMITRY
      DYMITRY 19 September 2012 09: 40
      +2
      Quote: erased
      And after the war, an amnesty came out to these very enemies, policemen, soldiers of the Wehrmacht! 6 (six) years of forced labor eviction!

      Good afternoon, dear.
      Let me add a little, six years later they released those who were not stained in blood. Those who had the blood of Soviet people on their hands (to the surprise of those who like to shout about a billion who were shot personally by Stalin, there were some, and a lot of them. And they got a term of 20-25 years) were released under a "corn" amnesty, and many were also rehabilitated. In the 90s, my father worked in the social. protection. An old man came to them, to issue a veteran's certificate and a certificate of a victim of political repression. There was a discrepancy in the dates, I was sitting and serving at the same time. They began to find out, punch. It turned out that this *** is really a veteran, only a veteran of the Wehrmacht - a Vlasovite !!!! But on the wave of general rehabilitation, he was declared a victim of political repression. Of course, he was not given a veteran of the Great Patriotic War, and the victim's certificate had to be issued, because there was a certificate of rehabilitation.
      Quote: erased
      Only here the results of this approach to history can be directly opposite to the expected ones. Not all voles and slaps of the Rus are forgiving, sometime they will answer in a purely Slavic style - the whole jaw with a head for a tooth!

      but for this +100500
    2. valokordin
      valokordin 19 September 2012 23: 48
      0
      Erased well, only the two-bladed helicopter looks like the Iroquois, and this is from the USA, we have never had this.
  11. BARKAS
    BARKAS 19 September 2012 08: 49
    +1
    Is this what turns out to be Stalingrad, the great tragedy of the German people, and the evil Russians brought them to this before that they want us to ask for forgiveness ??
    1. Trailer
      Trailer 19 September 2012 10: 11
      0
      Business, before Poland already bowed!
  12. Russlana
    Russlana 19 September 2012 08: 52
    -10
    I didn’t understand, that is, everyone here is sure that there were no barrage units and SMERSH? There were no penal battalions? No one belittles the ACTION of the Russian people, but I think everyone heard about Order No. 227.
    1. DYMITRY
      DYMITRY 19 September 2012 09: 41
      0
      Above, Andrei from Chelyabinsk answered this question.
    2. Fox
      Fox 19 September 2012 10: 31
      0
      learn history not in Latin!
    3. Bugor
      Bugor 19 September 2012 12: 30
      +2
      Yes, you read the order itself 227. Just read. There is nothing wild and terrible there. Such an order was necessary at that time ...
      It's for Russlana.
    4. Samovar
      Samovar 19 September 2012 18: 56
      0
      Quote: Russlana
      No one belittles the ACTION of the Russian people, but I think everyone heard about Order No. 227.

      Heard, heard. It is interesting, and what do you think should have been stopped by the drapes who had been unsuccessful in the summer of the 42nd part of the Red Army. Well, yes, there were detachments whose purpose was to stop the running soldiers (and not destroy, as many now think). A critical situation requires extreme measures.
      By the way, when street battles began in Stalingrad itself, detachments defended the city in the same ranks as soldiers and commanders of the Red Army. The need for them by that time already disappeared. Firstly, the high losses of the 62nd Army forced everyone to throw into the battle those who could hold weapons (even scribes with sleds), and secondly, the soldiers themselves perfectly understood the impossibility of a retreat.
      Personally, I am proud that my great-grandfather fought there, his eternal memory. Disabled returned from there, the meat grinder said she was still. All streets are littered with corpses, a continuous mass grave.
    5. Stormtrooper
      Stormtrooper 20 September 2012 00: 46
      0
      Quote: Russlana
      Are those present sure that there were no barrage units and SMERSH?


      You are reading something wrong. There were detachment detachments near Stalingrad. And there are documents of their activities. And this activity (as well as Order No. 227 itself) was recognized as useful even according to mass surveys of veterans. You can ask. But the military counterintelligence Smersh, not only in Stalingrad, but in general in the world at that time did not exist and could not exist - it was formed in 1943 and, according to highly competent specialists in the field of state security, was unconditionally recognized as the most effective intelligence service of the XNUMXth century.
  13. lewerlin53rus
    lewerlin53rus 19 September 2012 09: 04
    0
    The article is a timid attempt by the author to reveal the truth, from which you can’t get anywhere. But this small fraction of the truth, as usual, is heavily involved in Western stereotypes about the Soviet Union and the war as a whole. And no matter what modern historians write now, for me, and for most Russians, and not only people, the Great Patriotic War will be an example of the mass heroism of our people, which marked itself the Great Victory.
  14. neri73-r
    neri73-r 19 September 2012 09: 07
    +3
    It was an extraordinary mixture of courage and coercion. There were terrifying reports about how soldiers were executed. Sometimes they were not even shot, as it should be, because the firing squad was partially intoxicated or something else. In such cases, they used to get out of the crater from the projectile, where their bodies were dumped, appeared outside, and they were shot again. So there were some really scary parties to this event.


    In another way, a Westerner cannot explain the courage and steadfastness shown by our soldiers and the civilian population near Stalingrad and in other sectors of the front !!! Wimps, accustomed to greenhouse living conditions.
    1. Russlana
      Russlana 19 September 2012 09: 14
      0
      You are cunning. He writes about the other side:
      It cannot be said that the soldiers in Stalingrad held on only because of fierce discipline. There was a very sincere idealism and the most genuine determination to fight further - and an amazing level of self-sacrifice.
      1. Stormtrooper
        Stormtrooper 20 September 2012 00: 50
        0
        And these words are not at all a compliment. Beevor here puts more pressure on instincts and, in a streamlined form, hints at "corpses filled up", and not at all at the motivation and skillful actions of the soldiers. There is a wonderful military history film about Stalingrad from the "Great War" series. Discontinued 2 years ago. The film was shot with the active participation of modern respected Russian historians and with excerpts from documents. Be sure to take a look. Especially the actions of our assault groups. This is an alloy of courage, skill, unconventional decisions.
    2. wax
      wax 19 September 2012 13: 56
      0
      It’s moral for a Westerner to snatch, for example, for a Russian to help, take off his last shirt (oligarchs are no longer Russian).
  15. zelenchenkov.petr1
    zelenchenkov.petr1 19 September 2012 09: 47
    +1
    Gentlemen, state-yes .... ahhh!
    Do not belittle the merit of Anthony Bivor's search for shortcomings !!! All of them have and will be!
    The main thing is the ESSENCE that he objectively told the western layman the role of the USSR army in the Second World War !!!
    With your nitpicking, you belittle the role of Anthony, smear the ESSENCE of his interview, and this, among other things, is one of the methods .... intrigue, information warfare - the plan of Dulles and others !!!
    Good luck to you ... in the objectivity of the kament !!!
  16. DYMITRY
    DYMITRY 19 September 2012 09: 57
    +1
    Most importantly, the author kept silent about the results of the Battle of Stalingrad. except for some slurred words about inspiration. And the main results are as follows:
    1. The brutal fuel famine of the Wehrmacht, has become an indisputable fact. Without the slightest opportunity to improve the situation. The Stalingrad operation itself was started for access to the Caspian oil. The version that the battle was over because of the name of the city is nonsense of a madman.
    2. The Luftwaffe ridge is broken. In fact, the elite of fighter and bomber aviation and 90% of transport aviation were destroyed by 70%. Dominance in the sky was forever intercepted by the Soviet Air Force.
    This was probably the main result, although if you think about it, you can add a dozen more points here.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 September 2012 10: 17
      +1
      Quote: DYMITRY
      Broken ridge of the Luftwaffe. In fact, the elite of fighter and bomber aircraft has been destroyed by 90%

      Ummm .... And who then fought over the Kursk Bulge ?! Provided German air defense?
      Dear DYMITRY, you can never underestimate and belittle the exploits of our glorious grandfathers and great-grandfathers, but you also do not need to exaggerate them - the actions of our ancestors do not need this.
      Leave the Americans and the British to paint "the global impact of the battle of El Alamein on the general course of the world war" and "The landing in Sicily as a prologue to the victory over Nazi Germany." laughing
      1. DYMITRY
        DYMITRY 19 September 2012 11: 13
        +2
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Ummm .... And who then fought over the Kursk Bulge ?! Provided German air defense?

        Good afternoon, Andrey.
        I wrote about the elite, that is, pilots with great combat experience. It was they who were planted in Stalingrad. Yes, there were many good pilots left, but the Luftwaffe remained a sufficiently strong beast, but they beat the best of the best. About Goebels aces like Hartman, we are not talking. I'm talking about real pilots who carried the bulk of the load. On the Kursk arc, the Luftwaffe was already being finished, they gathered pilots from everywhere, almost exposing the western front. Well, Germany’s air defense provided the remaining 10% aces + meat from Hitler’s meat, trained according to the take-off and landing system.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Leave the Americans and the British to paint "the global impact of the battle of El Alamein on the general course of the world war" and "The landing in Sicily as a prologue to the victory over Nazi Germany."

        American historians will not agree with you! The battle for the attol Midway, - this is where the valiant Yankees destroyed the entire Wehrmacht !!! wink
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 September 2012 11: 43
          +3
          Quote: DYMITRY
          I wrote precisely about the elite, that is, pilots with a great combat experience.

          I will not argue with you, we will stay at our own :)))
          Quote: DYMITRY
          merikansky historians do not agree with you! The battle for the atoll of Midway - that’s where the brave Yankees destroyed the whole Wehrmacht !!!

          That's it ... and I thought that the main forces of the Wehrmacht were destroyed in the jungles of Guadalcanal wassat
          Live and learn laughing
    2. Stormtrooper
      Stormtrooper 20 September 2012 00: 53
      0
      Quote: DYMITRY
      2. The Luftwaffe ridge is broken. In fact, the elite of fighter and bomber aviation and 90% of transport aviation were destroyed by 70%. Dominance in the sky was forever intercepted by the Soviet Air Force.


      You can argue here. The Luftwaffe over Stalingrad was badly battered, but they did not break the ridge. Rather, the air battles over Taman of 1943 put an end to the air superiority of the Germans on the Eastern Front.
  17. understudy
    understudy 19 September 2012 10: 22
    0
    The elder brother of his father went missing near Stalingrad. So far, nothing is known about him. There was only a decaying triangle with a small text written on the butt of the machine. Ensign. It just so happened that the lion's share of my officer service took place in the ranks of the Stalingrad army of Chuikov. Fate
  18. Fox
    Fox 19 September 2012 10: 30
    +2
    I agree with the comments ... the author is trying to kick the USSR out of the blue ... see it in his genes: FEAR before GREAT RUSSIANS! GLORY TO THE SOVIET WARRIORS!
  19. vezunchik
    vezunchik 19 September 2012 10: 44
    0
    Such articles and photos should be actively posted on social networks! So that everyone sees and remembers! We have been to Berlin many times, and the Germans have never been to MOSCOW !!! If only in the role of prisoners of war! But Chancellor BISMARK warned the entire General Staff - climb into Russia!
    1. Kite
      Kite 19 September 2012 11: 25
      +1
      Quote: vezunchik
      Such articles and photos should be actively posted on social networks!

      - photo, yes! And the article - ??
      b] Radio Liberty correspondent Coilin O'Connor talks to a prominent British historian, author of Stalingrad, Anthony Bivor.
      - and the correspondent is not free, but very engaged, and the historian is some kind of "prominent" interpreter of his dreams.
      I read the article, but did not understand why the interpreter was given a word. I know many other descriptions from the authors on our and German sides, they describe the strategic objectives, the balance of forces, the composition of the troops, the situation at headquarters and on the battlefield ...., and this historian has almost no words. (?!). The heroism of our grandfathers surprised the Germans, they fought in complete encirclement, with no chance of survival, but more expensive so that their death would become an enemy. And here again the significance of the detachments protrudes. (In the summer, only one in a hundred can cross the Volga.)
  20. biglow
    biglow 19 September 2012 11: 21
    +3
    It is time for the city to regain its proud name STALINGRAD
  21. Mr. Truth
    Mr. Truth 19 September 2012 11: 52
    +4
    Here you have it, not a parade on Red Square. ©
    1. lewerlin53rus
      lewerlin53rus 19 September 2012 12: 05
      +2
      Quote: Kite
      And here again the significance of the detachments protrudes.

      And they like to stick it out very much, forgetting that in the boilers where our troops fell for various reasons, they fought to the last. And what foreign detachments could be surrounded?
  22. serge
    serge 19 September 2012 12: 26
    +3
    Stalingrad is an eternal reminder to European aggressors of what will happen to any invader in Russia. A little bit again they opened their mouths, as they recall - Stalingrad, and calm down.
  23. Bugor
    Bugor 19 September 2012 12: 38
    +2
    It is good that the author finally recognized that in the world there are only two armies capable of fighting to the last - WE and the Germans.
    I do not want to glorify the Wehrmacht, but the enemy, and especially one like the Germans, must be respected.
    After all, the Japanese during the Russo-Japanese also respected the captured Russian sailors, soldiers, officers, and those who surrendered (by the way, for the first time in the history of the Russian fleet) simply despised ...
  24. BARKAS
    BARKAS 19 September 2012 12: 42
    0
    The famous order did not "step on the backside" also concerned the zgradotryadov and Stalingrad was held in large part thanks to the part of the NKVD thrown into battle.
  25. nnz226
    nnz226 19 September 2012 12: 54
    +2
    2 comments: in the photo with Nikita Khrushchev, Eremenko is not the second on the left, but the first on the right. Some other major general is behind Nikita, I don't know his last name. About women in Stalingrad, in addition to nurses, you need to remember and bow low to the girls from the anti-aircraft 1070 (I'm afraid I can be mistaken with the number, but some 1000) regiment, who took a battle on the northern outskirts of Stalingrad with German tanks. Enti "brave Aryans", when they seized the positions of the regiment, to put it mildly, "ofigeli", when they saw who opposed them for almost half a day (there was no one to remove the bodies of the killed girls from the guns). EARTH BOW TO RUSSIAN SOLDIERS !!!
    More about the word "Stalingrad" and the attitude towards it in the USSR and the Federal Republic of Germany: even in Soviet times, our merchant steamer stood in a German port, and the locals had something in their heads - they gathered in a crowd at the side and began to shout "Russisch Schwein!" ours, having suffered for some time and not waiting for the police to react to these screams, lined up along the side and began to chant one word in response: “STALINGRAD!”, 15 minutes later, as a cow licked all the “yubermens”! so they remember about Stalingrad and know that Russia will perform a lot and may re-show some of the results of the WAR!
  26. Ahmar
    Ahmar 19 September 2012 13: 05
    +3
    and here they did not pass by in order not to spoil their lies - moreover, wielding emotions "I heard ..." and not relying on facts - this is a rigging and manipulation of consciousness, despite the assessment of the courage of our soldiers, they still present their shit.

    “I heard that many of them were not even shot later, but were beaten to death on orders so as not to transfer cartridges to them. Some were said to be forced to lie down on the road under the tanks.”

    “It turned out that a total of about 13500 [Soviet soldiers] were executed by their own, the Red Army - during the battle, this was usually done by SMERSH or special units of the NKVD. Behind the troops, in order to prevent their retreat, there were detachments.

    It was an extraordinary mixture of courage and compulsion. There were horrific reports of soldiers being executed. Sometimes they were not even shot, as expected, due to the fact that the firing squad was partly intoxicated or something else. In such cases, they used to get out of the funnel from the shell, where they dumped their bodies, appeared outside, and they were shot again. So there were some really scary sides to this event. "
    1. wax
      wax 19 September 2012 14: 05
      -1
      Yeah, HISTORIAN heard the hens give milk. Science, intelligentsia, ... their mother.
  27. uizik
    uizik 19 September 2012 16: 24
    +1
    All mixed and bitter and righteous! Where did he suck it from?
  28. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 September 2012 17: 39
    +2
    I remember reading somewhere an interview with an American - a developer of a computer game. The game (or its episode) somehow depicted the Battle of Stalingrad. So, this developer (however surprising against the spreading cranberries that Americans make about WWII in general and the Second World War in particular) decided to go to Stalingrad himself in order to try to perceive and convey the spirit and atmosphere of that distant war. The approach, I must say, is rare in the West - but all the more worthy of all respect. The American came to Volgograd, walked around the city, looked at Pavlov’s house, Mother’s Motherland, visited museums and excursions ...
    ... And then he was interviewed (ours) and asked him about his impressions. And this is what he said (not literally, but I will try to convey the essence and expression):
    “I don’t understand this. Well, it’s just impossible! You can take up the defense and fight. But if the enemy is too strong, you have to do something! Reinforcements must come up to the defenders and weaken the enemy’s onslaught. And if there is no reinforcement, then it’s necessary how something to maneuver, or retreat. And your great-grandfathers ... they did not go anywhere. They just took a position and fought. Fought until they were all killed - and only then the Nazis could go a little ahead, but the same thing awaited them further And your guides and historians, when I asked them - they never said - such and such a platoon fought here, such a company ... They said: such and such a platoon STANDED here, such a company STANDED. We stood until the last man. I understand that this is true. BUT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE, INCIDENTAL, I JUST NEVER BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND HOW IT IS AT ALL POSSIBLE! "
    By God, Anthony Beevor should have walked through the streets of Stalingrad :))))
  29. wbigfire
    wbigfire 19 September 2012 17: 47
    0
    An article on the type of nails, honey, shit and bees. All in one bottle. And is that an expert? Here is such a mess with them all in the West about the Great Patriotic War and the Soviet Union. Funny and sad.
  30. MakSim51ru
    MakSim51ru 19 September 2012 18: 34
    +1
    The author does not own the topic at all. Well it is necessary 13,5 thousand shot NKVDshniki .... Where did he get such data? Still being drunk. In what way ... With the introduction of order No. 227, executions for cowardice practically ceased. For those who left their positions without an order, the main punishment is a penalty. Further, it is believed that there are no NKVD detachment detachments exclusively; Grandfather, a military pilot, said that they (as well as sappers, railway workers, etc.) were involved in duty as such detachments. Moreover, the fighters who came to them were sent to assembly points, where reinforcements were formed. This is if the fighter left the second time, the tady are already disassembling the military prosecutor’s office. As for the drunk ... Well, what kind of Russian in their understanding should be like not under a shaf ...
  31. SenyaYa
    SenyaYa 19 September 2012 20: 48
    +2
    He studied the Battle of Stalingrad in depth, was in Volgograd .. Sheer nonsense and lies about Soviet soldiers in warons of 13 thousand shot ... In general, the story of a super historian resembles a "MASTER" film of a crooked-handed undercutter "CITADEL" .. When Soviet soldiers with cuttings from shovels on fascist fortifications ... It is simply impossible for Western miracle historians to understand what patriotism and love for the motherland are!
  32. Stasi.
    Stasi. 19 September 2012 20: 57
    +2
    Western historians have always considered and will consider the history of World War II through their prism. They will never be able, or rather they will not want to understand, that the Soviet-German front was the main front on which the fate of the whole world depended. The West still cannot forgive us the victory over Hitler, in his opinion we should have won at the cost of such sacrifices that we ourselves would have survived the victory for a short while. As for Khrushchev. Whenever he took command, it turned out to be defeat and loss. When he took command of the operation near Kharkov, which was considered half won, he ruined everything and the Germans defeated our armies near Kharkov, which greatly complicated the situation in the south. And near Stalingrad, he generally showed the greatest cowardice. He forbade the city to leave the population, and he fled to the other side of the Volga. Stalin wanted to shoot him, but the whole Politburo stood up for him and Khrushchev remained alive.
  33. Sasha 19871987
    Sasha 19871987 19 September 2012 21: 43
    0
    Yes, the terrible massacre was ... the most terrible and fierce battle ... and the British and their El Alamein are sitting in one place ...
  34. flanker7
    flanker7 19 September 2012 22: 22
    0
    Yes, everything is simple: the West is on and in the West the West, they will always add their spoonful of shit, and in any very unambiguous situation. And still, we are the best !!!
  35. denkastro
    denkastro 19 September 2012 22: 46
    -1
    Yes, let the shameful dogs be afraid, and we’ll smack them and break them if that is. Well and of course we will beat the traitors with sticks. We’re wild, we’re constantly drunk on bears. We have an image, they have thirst (oil), and we still live.
  36. valokordin
    valokordin 19 September 2012 23: 57
    0
    I hope I’m not the last one on the list and in conclusion I’ll say an infamous article with a claim to objectivity.
  37. Varies
    Varies 19 September 2012 23: 58
    0
    Put a minus since the article does not draw on more than a dumb political propaganda and another Western propaganda based on the works of Goebbels and various dissidents.
  38. Was mammoth
    Was mammoth 20 September 2012 00: 06
    0
    My father personally Chuikov assigned the first officer rank in Stalingrad. He said that of the two compositions of the battalion, only a few survived. They stood on the very shore of the Volga
    I regret that I did not ask him before. Now there is nobody. And the father himself did not like to talk about the war. Only with fellow soldiers. And that was rare.
    Article minus. Do not understand them our fathers.

    Eternal glory and memory to Soviet soldiers!
  39. Su24
    Su24 20 September 2012 00: 24
    -1
    Drunken firing squad it certainly brings Bivor. In general, I read the book, it is not the worst, it gives quite a few concrete facts of the heroism of the fighting units. However, his book is more psychological than purely military-historical. The movement of the divisions, the directions of the army’s strike was allotted little space, the author more describes the life and situation in which the soldiers were.
  40. 16
    16 20 September 2012 00: 39
    0
    I LOVE RUSSIA -------- HOMELAND !!!!!!!!! HONOR AND GLORY TO THE RUSSIAN SOLDIER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  41. omsbon
    omsbon 20 September 2012 03: 52
    0
    read and understood everything!
    1-Zagradotryad floated along the Volga and killed the retreating.
    2-The most truthful fipm is nonsense-fantasy "Enemy at the gate"
    3-Best historians - English
    1. ded_73
      ded_73 21 September 2012 11: 11
      +1
      Have you forgotten "Burnt by the Sun-2"
  42. Gromila555
    Gromila555 20 September 2012 21: 56
    0
    during the battle this was usually done by SMERSH or by special divisions of the NKVD. Behind the troops in order to prevent their withdrawal were detachments.
    Look at the statistics of mortality in the above troops and units, stop pouring dirt on veterans from SMERSH and the NKVD - for many of them the war ended much later than for the rest - banditry was by no means weak and put things in order for a long time.
    The Germans came up with detachments in general. Snot dismissed - detachments, SMERSH, NKVD ... they fought no less than the rest
  43. ded_73
    ded_73 21 September 2012 11: 08
    0
    I recommend Robert Kershaw’s book “1941 through the eyes of the Germans.” Birch crosses instead of Iron ones. ” English author, but very interesting. German memories in letters and diaries. Instructive.