The first Finnish pistols

170
The first Finnish pistols
Renowned Finnish radio commentator Enzo Sevon is reporting from the front. In his left hand is an FN Model 1910 pistol. (Source SA-kuva)

Confirmation of the truth
never overkill
even when
every doubt sleeps.

William Shakespeare

When it comes to Finnish pistols, that is, pistols designed in Finland, the Lahti L-35 is usually remembered. Meanwhile, Aimo Lahti was not the first or even the second in the list of Finnish pistol designers. He was third. Moreover, when considering the issue, serious doubts arise that Lahti created his pistol "from scratch".

But more on that later.



First try


The Finns made their first attempt to acquire a pistol of their own production literally at the dawn of independent Finnish statehood - in 1918.

The newly created army had to be armed with something, including pistols, and the audit of the inherited "inheritance" showed that the Finns got a lot of pistols, only "a lot" in this case meant not the number of pistols, but the number of pistol samples. The score was literally dozens. Moreover, along with such famous pistols as the Luger P08 or FN-Browning M1910, there were completely exotic samples like the German Lignose Einhand, Jager Pistole or the Belgian Melior from Manufacture Liegeoise d'Armes a Feu Robar et Cie.


The Jager pistol, developed in 1914 by Franz Jager & Co, Suhl, which is famous for the production of hunting weapons... Produced from 1914 to 1917. Caliber 7,65 mm, weight without cartridges 650 grams, magazine capacity - 7 cartridges. The pistol is interesting in that most of its parts were made by stamping. However, at that time, such a progressive technology frightened off the military, and the pistol was in circulation only on the civilian market..

Providing such a motley arsenal with spare parts and ammunition is a non-trivial task for a country with developed weapons production. And in Finland, which has existed for less than a year, even more so.

Several private firms, where it was possible to place orders, coped with the task with difficulty. Among them was Ab H. Ahlberg & Co Oy from Turku. Hugo Ahlberg, a graduate engineer, was the director and shareholder of the firm. The enterprise, which produced internal combustion engines and metalworking equipment, had at its disposal a sufficiently modern machine park for its time, foundry and blacksmith production, and even electric welding equipment. During the war, the firm already fulfilled some orders for the Russian Ministry of War for the manufacture of spare parts for small arms, including machine gun locks.


Hugo Ahlberg. Unfortunately, story did not even keep a high-quality photograph of the creator of the first Finnish pistol.

Having understood the problem, Ahlberg offered the military department the most optimal, in his opinion, solution - to produce an unlicensed copy of the FN-Browning M1910 at his enterprise, and even presented a prototype of such a product.

The Finnish military agreed and signed a contract with Ahlberg for 1 of these pistols in September 000. The only significant change was made to the pistol - the barrel length was increased by fifteen millimeters and, accordingly, the bolt casing.


Left - FN-Browning M1910, right - AHLBERG pistol. The differences are clearly visible - the Finnish pistol has a longer barrel, wooden lining instead of plastic and low quality bluing.

But Ahlberg, as practice has shown, overestimated both the capabilities of his enterprise for the mass production of weapons, and his own - as a designer. According to the contract, the first 30 pistols were to be delivered by November 1918, but until February 1919 the company managed to present two (!) Pistols, moreover, there was even no bluing on the produced samples.

In February, things seemed to move, and seventy pistols were made, but ten of them were rejected. Fifty-eight were made in March, ten of them were rejected again. In addition, serious difficulties arose with the manufacture of stores and their assembly with springs.

By June 1919, about 600 pistols were manufactured, while the percentage of rejects remained at the original level. The following fact speaks well about the level of production - parts of different pistols were often not interchangeable.

The patience of the military department was exhausted, and the contract for 1 pistols was canceled, and the next one, which was being prepared for signing, for 000 pistols, was canceled. Desperate to get their own pistols, the Finns bought from the French 3 Pistolet Automatique de 000 millim.10 genre Ruby pistols, which were gathering dust in the warehouses.

Alberg managed to sell the manufactured pistols to the Finnish White Guard and the police, but this did not compensate for the financial costs. And besides, the chief accountant of the company was burned out by financial fraud, which finally finished off the company - it went bankrupt and was sold under the hammer.

During World War II, Alberg's pistols were transferred to the army and were in service with the rear services. By the end of the 1960s, the most worn out of the remaining 125 pieces had been disposed of, the rest were put up for sale to the military as souvenirs. Today this pistol is rare and rarity.


Alberg pistol. Caliber - 7,65 mm, weight without cartridges - 660 grams, length - 167 mm, barrel length - 102 mm, magazine capacity - 7 rounds.
(Source - Digitaltmuseum.se - original photo by Armémuseum (Sweden)

In short, the Finns' first pancake turned out to be clearly lumpy, and until the mid-1920s, no more attempts were made to establish their own production of pistols in Finland.

Second attempt


The Finnish Defense Ministry returned to this issue in 1926.

It was not planned to create our own design, they decided to release the Luger P08. The choice for this pistol was not accidental. At that time, the backbone of the Finnish officer corps were those who during the First World War served in the German army as part of the 27th Royal Prussian Jaeger Battalion, and the Luger P08 was well known to them.

The opportunity to consider the production of Luger P08 in series of 2, 000 and 5 pieces was offered to Lindelöfin konetehdas (Lindelöf Engineering Works).

At that time, this plant was one of the few in Finland that specialized in the production of ammunition and weapons. And its owner Leonard Lindelof, despite the fact that he had a master's degree in philosophy, was noted for several inventions in the field of weapons, including an improved Maxim machine gun lock.

However, a series of meetings held by representatives of the Ministry of Defense and the plant ended in vain. Lindelof did not take up the production of pistols. Maybe he soberly, unlike Alberg, assessed the capabilities of the enterprise, and perhaps there were other factors, but nevertheless the issue remained unresolved.

Then the head of the armaments department of the Ministry of Defense, Major Arvo Saloranta, makes a proposal to develop a pistol that would not be inferior in characteristics to the Luger P08, but would be simpler in design so that its production would be possible in Finland. Moreover, he undertook to develop this pistol himself.


Arvo Saloranta. He was one of the first Finnish officers to study in foreign educational institutions, having graduated from the military-technical department of the Royal Danish Military Academy. As a captain, he took up the colonel's position as head of the armaments department of the Ministry of Defense.

The design was based on two Saloranta pistols - Luger P08 and Bergman-Bayard. From Luger - the barrel, the handle, the magazine were taken, from Bergman-Bayard - the principle of operation of the automatics (using the recoil of the barrel with its short stroke), the design of the bolt and the locking unit. Locking was carried out by a wedge moving in a vertical plane.

Development took almost three years, and in early 1929 Saloranta, who had by then become director of the newly built state-owned arms factory Valtion Kivaari Tehdas (VKT), presented his pistol, a prototype of which was made at the Weapon School.


Salorant's pistol. Caliber 9 mm, weight without cartridges 1 105 grams, length 240 mm, barrel length 117 mm, magazine capacity 8 rounds.

The pistol functioned normally, but then the so-called "over-barrel scandal" broke out.

Briefly, the essence of this question is as follows.

By the mid-1920s, about 200 Mosin rifles with completely worn barrels had accumulated in the army warehouses of Finland by the mid-000s. It was not possible to produce such a number of new barrels within an acceptable time frame, either from the technical or financial point of view.

Then Saloranta suggested using the "Salerno method." This method was used by the Italians during the First World War to remake the M1870 Vetterli rifles, which had a 10,4 mm caliber chambered for the 6,5 × 52 mm Carcano cartridge. For this, the old barrel was drilled out and a liner for a new caliber was installed in it. The chamber also underwent a corresponding alteration.

Thus, during 1917-1925, 14 rifle barrels and 940 barrels for the Maxim machine gun were restored.

A scandal arose around these trunks.

The first commission, which checked the quality of the remanufactured barrels, recognized 15% as suitable, the rest - either unusable at all, or requiring revision. Three years later, a new commission was assembled. Its conclusions were even more disastrous - only 14% of the trunks were recognized as suitable, and 51% were completely unusable.

The case was taken to court. Saloranta was found guilty and sentenced to 20 days in prison and a fine of 1,34 million Finnish marks (approximately 450 euros in current prices), in addition to being accused of unauthorized changes to the drawings of the Lahti machine gun.

He was removed from the post of director of VKT and transferred to the insignificant position of head of the Weapon School, having been removed from all developments, including the development of a pistol.

True, in 1938, when clouds began to gather over the Finns, the rejected trunks were rechecked again. And it turned out that they are quite suitable for themselves. Salorant was acquitted and the money paid to him was returned, but the time was up.

Third attempt


And the development of the pistol was not puzzled by anyone, but Aimo Lahti.

Lahti fully justified the high confidence placed in him in the creation of a Finnish pistol and literally a few weeks later delivered a ready-made sample - L-29.


The Lahti L-29 pistol is strikingly similar to the Saloranta pistol, not only externally, but also “internally”, and very similar.



In the upper picture is the Saloranta pistol, in the lower one is the Lahti pistol. As you can see, the device is identical. The same grip and barrel are from the Luger P08, and the automation and bolt group are from Bergman-Bayard. Locking with a wedge moving in a vertical plane. As we can see, there is no accelerator yet. It will appear much later, on the L-35.

There is no documentary evidence that Lahti "borrowed" the design from Salorant. Saloranta did not complain about plagiarism, Lahti, accordingly, did not admit it. But the relationship between them, as Finnish historians write, have never been friendly.

Well, Lahti from L-29 to L-35, about which there was an article recently on the pages of the website "Voennoye Obozreniye", took another six years of hard work.

This article is based on this book.


The three-volume edition Small Arms of Finland. 1918-1988 ". The publication is truly comprehensive. Hence, most of the illustrations, because they are black and white.

Использованная литература:
Sotilaskäsiaseet Suomessa 1918-1988 / Military Small Arms in Finland 1918-1988 by Markku Palokangas.
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170 comments
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  1. +15
    13 December 2021 18: 30
    I read V. Popov's article with pleasure, it's nice when a person is in love with his business.
    1. +17
      13 December 2021 19: 36
      And while reading, I wondered who encroached on this topic. The syllable seems familiar, but it is not recognized either way !!! And only at the end I read "V. Popov"!
      Vic Nick, returned to the Plead of VO Authors! Very, very excellent !!!
      With all sincere respect, Vlad!
  2. +14
    13 December 2021 18: 42
    Test article. And the illustrations are detailed, and "water" is not poured.
    I thank the author for his work. I read it with interest.
    1. +14
      13 December 2021 18: 48
      Igor, this is an article by our Vic Nick, but he has no "water"! good
    2. +19
      13 December 2021 18: 52
      and "water" is not poured.

      It is difficult to pour water in this case, since the source is in Finnish.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. +12
        13 December 2021 19: 01
        We look forward to no less exciting DLCs from you and Sergey Yuferev! hi
        1. +16
          13 December 2021 19: 38
          Here is another author (this is me about Yuri Kudelin), under whose articles, apart from words of gratitude, I don't want to write anything else, just read professionally presented and beautifully illustrated works! It's nice that a regiment of good authors who are so responsible about their work (and their readers) has arrived!
          "It's just some kind of holiday!" ©
          1. +3
            14 December 2021 14: 06
            Thanks for your kind words!
            Time is sorely lacking ...
            Today or tomorrow I am submitting one more article for moderation.
            Maybe they'll post it on the site by the weekend.

            Yours faithfully,
            Jury
      3. +10
        13 December 2021 21: 30
        It is difficult to pour water in this case, since the source is in Finnish.

        Then I'll go pour myself some brandy. belay Return of the Prodigal Son! First article from 2017! good
        The following fact speaks well about the level of production - parts of different pistols were often not interchangeable.

        I read somewhere that the disc magazines from the PPSh of the first releases were also fitted to a specific PCB and were not replaced.

        Victor Nikolaevich, bravo! good I didn’t even read it voraciously - with the inner energy of creativity running ahead of me. soldier Keep going! Continue, my dear man! Yes We need to make up for everything that you have not made us happy with in five years! Yes drinks

        Sincerely yours, Nikolay "Mikado" / "Pane Kohanku".
        1. +10
          13 December 2021 21: 37
          Keep going! Keep going


          Inspiration is the kind of guest who doesn't like visiting the lazy.
          1. +10
            13 December 2021 21: 39
            Inspiration is the kind of guest who doesn't like visiting the lazy.

            "Nobody except us!" - the motto of the Airborne Forces. bully You get the hint. Awesome literate article! good
      4. +1
        14 December 2021 13: 07
        It is difficult to pour water in this case, since the source is in Finnish.


        wassat lol laughing
        5 points!
        Nothing to add!

        Yours faithfully,
  3. +13
    13 December 2021 18: 52
    I read it with pleasure! Thanks to the author!
    I have such a three-volume edition.
    One problem - in Finnish ... recourse
    And with Finnish, like the hero Buldakov (general) ... lol
    "Well, all I knew, I said ..."

    Best wishes and best regards,
    1. +16
      13 December 2021 18: 56
      Regards and best regards

      Thank you!
      One problem - in Finnish ...

      Yes, as practice shows, a "google breeder" is not suitable for translation from Finnish.
      1. +2
        14 December 2021 13: 13
        Yes, as practice shows, a "google breeder" is not suitable for translation from Finnish.

        Exactly! When I was preparing a commentary for an article on L-35, I just used one of the volumes.
        After the passage "to slide on skis", although it is clear from the drawing that this is a spring-loaded guide, I realized that I had to learn Finnish ... laughing

        Yours faithfully,
    2. +11
      13 December 2021 19: 33
      I join the words of gratitude to the author! With a successful debut on the pages of the esteemed "Military Review" and (I really hope so) further creative successes!
      1. +10
        13 December 2021 21: 35
        With a successful debut on the pages of the esteemed "Military Review" and (I really hope so) further creative successes!

        O Great Leader, this is by no means a debut! stop Viktor Nikolaevich wrote a number of articles in 2016, then continued in 2017 - a gorgeous addition about the subtleties of the bayonet from the "three-line". I just didn't write later ... request Well, you and I will scold him, and if he no longer writes, we will remove the scalp from him and drink fire water. fellow drinks
        Viktor Nikolaevich, have you heard ?! laughing drinks
        1. +4
          14 December 2021 10: 58
          Quote: Pane Kohanku
          and if he no longer writes, we will remove the scalp from him and drink fiery water.

          hi
          1. +3
            14 December 2021 11: 21
            and if he no longer writes, we will remove the scalp from him and drink fiery water.

            Yes, Sergei, I forgot about the skull ... wink laughing
            Khan Kurya slyly looks at me as at a drinking companion and says: "Your health!" good drinks
            1. +4
              14 December 2021 11: 28
              "I forgot about the skull ..."
              And we in Moscow somehow manage with glasses. Savages. However. bully bully bully
              1. +4
                14 December 2021 11: 34
                And we in Moscow somehow manage with glasses. Savages. However.

                Sergey, hello! No, if you are about yourself - then I agree, truly a savage! tongue drinks
                Even the Pechenegs fled from you. bully
                I found an interesting picture:
                1. +3
                  14 December 2021 11: 45
                  Aha, aha! We ran away! So "minus", what ...? Even today, hiccup! bully
                  1. +3
                    14 December 2021 11: 53
                    Even today, hiccups! After all, I encroached on sacred things.

                    Go impose a penance on yourself, repent (sinner!), And drink 150 g of fiery water. laughing
                    Let go. Yes
                    1. +2
                      14 December 2021 12: 05
                      Penance? No, it will not work, for I am an agnostic. 150? Why not? "Am I trembling or have the right ..."
                      Someone-Fyodor Mikhailovich.
                      In how !!!! Even from the quote of the classic! The word was deleted !!!! About times, about morals!
                      1. +4
                        14 December 2021 12: 10
                        Why not?

                        Uh-huh, don't go to school! Yes


                        Someone-Fyodor Mikhailovich.

                        Rather then, R.R. Raskolnikov! The case of which blooms and smells, unfortunately ... Sometimes it is scary to read city news on "Fontanka". belay
                        It's just the climate! request


                        But how well Fedor Mikhailovich lived in Staraya Russa ... winked
                      2. +1
                        14 December 2021 12: 14
                        PaaaAzvolte! Written all the same by F.M. Rasskolnikov? Character. You say the climate? No, rather the time is to blame. Cursed.
                      3. +3
                        14 December 2021 12: 21
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        But how well Fedor Mikhailovich lived in Staraya Russa ...

                        In general, not bad, although in comparison with the nobility - very modest: as they say, "poor, but neat" drinks

                      4. +3
                        14 December 2021 12: 30
                        That's right. For Nikita, the "sun-worn" one, everything is different.
                      5. +3
                        14 December 2021 12: 39
                        although in comparison with the nobility - it is very modest: as they say, "poor, but neat"

                        By the standards of the Stavropol traffic cops - "very poor and sad." laughing Have you visited the Museum of the Brothers Karamazov? We went in October.
                      6. +2
                        14 December 2021 12: 43
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        By the standards of the Stavropol traffic cops - "very poor and sad"

                        It is scary to even imagine what wonderful works a Stavropol traffic cop would have created in his elegant interior if the law enforcement agencies had not interrupted his career ... wassat
                        Have you visited the Museum of the Brothers Karamazov? We went in October.

                        No, we didn't get there, is it a remake? hi
                      7. +3
                        14 December 2021 12: 45
                        It is scary to even imagine what wonderful works a Stavropol traffic cop would have created in his elegant interior if the law enforcement agencies had not interrupted his career.

                        A bit of sad humor ...




                        No, we didn't get there, is it a remake?

                        A remake. And inside there is a museum of the characters of the novel. I would say - "a museum of urban life of the second half of the 19th century."
                      8. +2
                        14 December 2021 15: 05
                        You, Sergei, have a kind of Petersburg-like seriousness, you know. That’s Anton also has a place to be. Nicholas? He is more like us, like Muscovites. He’s funny and ... easy to talk to. But! What is important. Good. In general, our company is pretty.
                2. +1
                  14 December 2021 11: 46
                  A personal enemy of Himself? bully
              2. +3
                14 December 2021 11: 40
                Quote: Phil77
                And we in Moscow somehow manage with glasses. Savages. However

                - The glasses were taken by the guys from the Czech community. Can you drink from paper cups?
                - I happened to drink from a case for glasses.
                Reinhard raised his eyebrows respectfully. We drank a glass of brandy.
                S. Dovlatov "Our" drinks
                1. +2
                  14 December 2021 11: 42
                  Class! I confess, I haven’t read it. Now I understand, I must! Took note! Thanks!
                  1. +3
                    14 December 2021 11: 47
                    Class! I confess, I haven’t read it. Now I understand, I must! Took note! Thanks!

                    And I was even in his house in Pushgory, where he worked as a guide, and then wrote "Preserve". There was a museum there at one time. Now the building is closed, and just an open area, pasted over with quotes from the work.
                    1. +1
                      14 December 2021 11: 54
                      Nichol, I sent you something there. Take a look at your leisure, in my opinion it is interesting.
                      1. +2
                        14 December 2021 11: 56
                        Nichol, I sent you something there. Take a look at your leisure, in my opinion it is interesting.

                        Saw! In the evening I will download and take a look. Thanks! drinks
                    2. +2
                      14 December 2021 12: 00
                      Quote: Pane Kohanku
                      And I was even in his house in Pushgory

                      Were there in the summer of 2020:
                      1. +2
                        14 December 2021 12: 06
                        Were there in the summer of 2020:

                        And I - in October 2020. Yes
                      2. +3
                        14 December 2021 12: 17
                        And Dovlatov lived in this "shed"?
                        "Yes, your mansions are not royal ..."
                        Ivan Vasilievich / Yakovlev /
                      3. +1
                        14 December 2021 14: 14
                        And Dovlatov lived in this "shed"?

                        By the way, Sergei, in Pushgori, in the church fence near Trigorskoye, a wonderful person is buried - Savva Yamshchikov.
                        And in Pskov in October last year, a monument was erected to him - not far from the Pokrovskaya Tower and the place of the Batory Breakthrough.
                      4. +1
                        14 December 2021 14: 21
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        And in Pskov in October last year, a monument was erected to him - not far from the Pokrovskaya Tower and the place of the Batory Breakthrough.

                        Honestly, I don’t remember such a monument, apparently I didn’t see it.
                        It is interesting that he was married the second in marriage to V.M. Ganibalova: is she related to the famous Ganibal? hi
                      5. +2
                        14 December 2021 14: 23
                        Honestly, I don’t remember such a monument, apparently I didn’t see it.

                        It was installed in October last year. Apparently, you have not been there just during this period ...
                        It is interesting that he was married the second in marriage to V.M. Ganibalova: is she related to the famous Ganibal?

                        I'm afraid to even think. Yesterday I found Petrov and Boshirov in a French photo of WWI ... To our conversation about a time machine. wassat
                      6. +1
                        14 December 2021 14: 25
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        Apparently, you have not been there just during this period ...

                        Yes, I haven't been since that time.
                        Yesterday I found Petrov and Vasechkin and Boshirov in a photo from WWI ...

                        But they say that there are no such people, so trust people after that ... wassat
                      7. +3
                        14 December 2021 15: 02
                        But they say that there are no such people, so trust people after that ...

                        You've probably already seen it, but I will duplicate it.



                        In the center, with a slingshot - obviously Boshirov!

                      8. +2
                        14 December 2021 15: 05
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        In the center, with a slingshot - obviously Boshirov!

                        Petrov is clearly on the far left, only slightly younger in this picture. wassat
                      9. +2
                        14 December 2021 15: 10
                        Petrov is clearly on the far left, only slightly younger in this picture.

                        Or the far right, just let go of his mustache. wink
                      10. +2
                        14 December 2021 15: 11
                        Guys, good with you! I learned so many new things! It's just great! Thank you!
                      11. +3
                        14 December 2021 15: 09
                        He clearly resembles someone, in the sense of a monument. bully Greetings from the "nineties"? Brother from the lads?
                      12. +3
                        14 December 2021 15: 12
                        He clearly resembles someone, in the sense of a monument.

                        The Lord is with you! Oxtis, sinful sinner! tongue Coachmen are a lump man! How much he tried to prevent you from destroying antiquities for the sake of business centers in Moscow!
                        And the monument at the Pokrovskaya tower. In the 90s, it burned, and was restored by the care of Yamshchikov.
                      13. +2
                        14 December 2021 15: 14
                        Monument. The monument itself. "A man in a pinzhak ...". bully
                      14. +1
                        14 December 2021 15: 23
                        Monument. The monument itself. "A man in a pinzhak ...".

                        Normal monument. Great Man.
                      15. +1
                        14 December 2021 15: 27
                        Stylistics, buddy, stylistics, no more. hi angry
                      16. +1
                        14 December 2021 15: 25
                        "in your Moscow".
                        It is useless. The spirit of that Moscow that we, who were born in it, knew, was lost. ..".Very similar.
                      17. +3
                        14 December 2021 15: 39
                        What do I mean? Just a photo.



                        This is Lavra. The first and second Lavrsky lanes on Samoteok. Moscow. I love my city. But .... gone.
                      18. +3
                        14 December 2021 16: 51
                        This is Lavra. The first and second Lavrsky lanes on Samoteok. Moscow. I love my city. But .... gone.

                        I understand you perfectly. Here, after the Turks at the "Five Corners" committed the so-called. "architectural mistake", old historical buildings were forbidden to touch with rough hands. Although there are other nuances ...
                    3. +2
                      14 December 2021 15: 53
                      Oh, Nikolai, how I envy your mobility! What is stopping me? Laziness. Probably just laziness. Especially, now, in winter. Leaving the house, it’s dark, returning from work? It’s dark again! In the summer I’ll take on myself ... probably. recourse
                      1. +1
                        15 December 2021 00: 00
                        Oh, Nikolay, how I envy your mobility!

                        What mobility! 2013 Renault Megane, black pearl under the ass. By the way, fucking car, in more than eight years, not a single breakdown. good I was in the far abroad only three times: in 2013 in the Dominican Republic (then the dollar had not grown yet!), In 2019 in Zakynthos and in a Finnish store near the border ... request
                        You know, Kingisepp (ancient Yam), Pskov, Polotsk and Staraya Russa are dearer to me than any foreign pyramids, Sergey! I drive calmly .. I have a rest .. I take pictures ...
                        Seryoga Mikhailov (Mihaylov) also loves Pskov and Staraya Russa. And also a modeler! good drinks
  4. +16
    13 December 2021 18: 59
    Victor, thank you - made you happy! good
    The information is new to me, which is valuable!))
    ... came across completely exotic samples like the German Lignose Einhand, Jager Pistole or the Belgian Melior from Manufacture Liegeoise d'Armes a Feu Robar et Cie.

    Lignose einhand


    Melior

    I'm not sure that Melior is from Manufacture Liegeoise d'Armes a Feu Robar et Cie, but as they say, I found it.))
    1. +12
      13 December 2021 19: 08
      I'm not sure if Melior is from Manufacture Liegeoise d'Armes a Feu Robar et Cie

      Other companies did not produce them, it was just that this company periodically changed its names - first “Manufacture Liegeoise d'Armes a Feu Robar et Cie”, then “ROBAR Fils & Co”, then ROBAR Fils and L De KERCKHOVE.
      1. +7
        13 December 2021 19: 09
        And why such a leapfrog, I wonder?
        1. +12
          13 December 2021 19: 11
          The company has always made high-quality weapons, and with what the "rebranding" is connected - it is necessary to look for information.
          1. +9
            13 December 2021 19: 46
            However, intrigue, which in itself is quite interesting.))

            I also found this Melior, very similar to Walther Model 9.
            1. +9
              13 December 2021 20: 42
              This company produced pistols Jieffeco, Melior, Mercury, New Model Melior (which is in the article) Phoenix.
              1. +8
                13 December 2021 21: 42
                I'll try to insert it one by one.
                Jieffeco

                Phoenix?


                mercury,
                1. +5
                  14 December 2021 09: 18
                  Jieffeco

                  The first one outwardly somewhat resembles Tula Korovin. By the way, Uncle Kostya, did you hold the TK in your hands for your work?

                  1. +5
                    14 December 2021 09: 23
                    Kolya, hi! smile
                    In my opinion, it is not similar. He was holding it in his hands - a clumsy design, uncomfortable.
                    1. +5
                      14 December 2021 09: 31
                      He was holding it in his hands - a clumsy design, uncomfortable.

                      Hello Uncle Kostya! Well, that's understandable - the first domestic self-loading pistol ...
                      1. +7
                        14 December 2021 09: 40
                        The second was no better - also clumsy. laughing It's a pity that the war prevented Voevodin from being adopted, it was a Machine (!!!!), judging by the reviews.


                      2. +6
                        14 December 2021 10: 32
                        It's a pity that the war prevented Voevodin from being adopted, it was a Machine (!!!!), judging by the reviews.

                        Unusual appearance, the position of the barrel is somewhat reminiscent of the French submachine gun MAS 38.
                      3. +6
                        14 December 2021 10: 41
                        Nothing in common, MAS has an "oblique" shutter. wassat
                      4. +2
                        14 December 2021 10: 50
                        Nothing in common, MAS has an "oblique" shutter.

                        It's true. Does Voevodin have it? I just don't know. His 18-round magazine is, of course, impressive.
                      5. +5
                        14 December 2021 11: 14
                        Voevodin has a normal parallel-rectilinear laughing , and the locking unit is the same as that of the Mauser K-96.
          2. 0
            15 December 2021 00: 11
            Quote: Undecim
            The company has always made high-quality weapons, and with what the "rebranding" is connected - it is necessary to look for information.

            https://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/RKOM1/rkom1.html
    2. +12
      13 December 2021 19: 08
      The same Bergman-Bayard that served as one of the prototypes for Arvo Salorant ..

  5. +10
    13 December 2021 19: 20
    I apologize for the excessive, perhaps, curiosity, it would be interesting to know the expert, personal attitude of the author to the specified samples, compliance with the development trends of weapons of his time, ergonomics, manufacturability in production, the number of parts, ease of disassembly (complete disassembly), well then there is how the author, from his point of view, evaluates this or that sample. Once again, sorry if I'm amateurish hi
    1. +13
      13 December 2021 20: 36
      Well, I do not pretend to "expert opinion" due to the fact that I saw Finnish pistols only in the picture and can only evaluate them theoretically.
      As for the Alberg pistol, this is the same FN-Browning M1910 device, about which it has been written so much that I’ll hardly say anything new.
      1. +7
        13 December 2021 23: 19
        And nevertheless, Viktor Nikolaevich, many did not hold in their hands anything except a report card (from a manual combat), after all, this is not the final collegium of the Ministry of Defense, pliz, for the sake of discussion, let's be more relaxed, truth is born in disputes, constructively many samples are masterpieces, but inglorious forgotten. I will look forward to your next materials. hi
        1. +2
          14 December 2021 13: 25
          And nevertheless, Viktor Nikolaevich, many did not hold in their hands anything but a report card (from a manual combat),


          Everything else, alas, is strictly regulated by law.
          Only MMG remains. Of course, you won't be able to shoot, but in terms of "touching" with your hands and assessing the ergonomics you can.

          The same L-35, in comparison with the Luger, feels like a cast iron iron, but with a very comfortable grip. And Luger is a fluff compared to the Finn.

          Yours faithfully,
  6. +14
    13 December 2021 19: 30
    I was interested in the "ambiguous" story with Aymo Lahti. And what do you think it turned out? Aimo Lahti was the only person to whom Marshal Mannerheim issued a personal permit for drunkenness wassat )))

    Victor Nikolaevich, congratulations on the publication of this article! good drinks hi )))
    1. +13
      13 December 2021 19: 38
      Thank you for your congratulations!!!
    2. +13
      13 December 2021 19: 38
      ... Mannerheim issued a personal permission for drunkenness wassat)))


      Who about what ... bully

      Good evening, Luda love - made me happy. drinks

      1. +13
        13 December 2021 20: 01
        Good evening, Kostya!)))
        Have a nice evening everyone!
        You see what the matter ...
        After Lahti became a well-known weapons designer, he began to travel around Europe, there were many trips, and then at home they suddenly discovered that he had a habit of "pawing by the collar". But the delicate Finnish press wrote about it like this:
        "Often, lengthy negotiations led to heavy drinking."
        However, Lahti was by no means a champion in this national sport. Therefore, when Marshal Mannerheim was alarmedly reported that the chief Finnish weapons designer was drunk again, Mannerheim sighed heavily and formulated that very personal permission in the form of the phrase: "Let him drink, if only he worked!"
        What can you do, Finns)))
    3. The comment was deleted.
      1. +13
        13 December 2021 20: 18
        Duc! ...
        At one time I had a chance to work in the shop at the site for welding the leads to the microcircuit. Presumably, now this is not done the way it was then))) There was an installation for this, which constantly broke. And the adjuster, when sober, did not recognize her, did not know from which side to approach her. The female workers gave him alcohol intended for cleaning the tweezers, the microscope stage, the working surface of the table, and the fingertips. And, only after drinking, he "recognized" the installation. But, one must think, and it came to me many years later, I repaired exactly so that it broke again.
        1. +11
          13 December 2021 21: 45
          The son-doctor cured a patient who had been treated by his father for 30 years.
          And deprived the family of a permanent income.
          And dad, treating this patient, built a house and taught his son to be a doctor ...
          So did your "shop assistant" ...
          The main thing is to "push", but not to repair - otherwise they will stop pouring!
          1. +5
            14 December 2021 09: 19
            otherwise they will stop pouring

            How is it, how is it - stop pouring ??! belay Alexey, sho for the horrors you still say! laughing drinks
            1. +3
              14 December 2021 11: 14
              "I feel like a camel - I don't drink for a month ..." drinks
  7. +10
    13 December 2021 21: 41
    So, how did the gentlemen from Suomi happen that two checks showed an open marriage of barrels, and the third revealed the "100%" suitability of the rifles for battle?
    Digging under the captain in the colonel's position?
    Or did they "whitewash" both the captain and those who were "tied up" in the "re-barrel" procedure?
    A very "dark story in the black room"!
    1. +12
      13 December 2021 21: 54
      You know, on some of the 1200 pages of the three-volume book about which I wrote in the article, you can obviously find the answer to your question. But working with sources in Finnish is difficult for me for the simplest reason - I don't know him. Auto-translation does not work here. We have to use old connections, but there are certain nuances. Therefore, I do not promise to answer your question in the near future.
      1. +7
        13 December 2021 22: 11
        hi no problem!
        Maybe an interesting article will come out of this "dark story"! good
        1. +10
          13 December 2021 22: 39
          I was a little interested in this story like that. It turns out - personal ambitions and the struggle for positions. But in order to accurately state all the twists and turns and intrigues - you need a professional translation.
      2. +7
        13 December 2021 22: 15
        Such a brave radio commentator - a microphone in his right hand, a pistol in his left!
        Not otherwise, as he was going to "repel" a tank attack "Russya" ...
        1. +10
          13 December 2021 22: 36
          He is a really brave guy - he was involved in various sports, including hockey, and was a sports commentator. And on the front line, not only did he report, but also went into attacks and repelled attacks. Wounded twice and twice awarded the Order of the Cross of Liberty, class 4 with oak leaves for bravery.
  8. +7
    13 December 2021 23: 29
    The persistent desire of the Finns to have their own is striking. It would seem that there are a lot of excellent foreign samples: buy or produce under a license, but no! You need your own.
    They obviously did not have "young reformers of the nineties" with the logic - we will sell oil (in the case of the Finns - timber) and buy everything.
    Stubborn guys.
    1. +6
      14 December 2021 10: 24
      After reading it, I immediately thought: why does every country that is capable of this try to produce its own weapons? But she left these thoughts "to ripen."
      But the first thing that came to mind was that you have to pay for licenses. How expensive? And somewhere in my head it is spinning: does the license allow for the improvement of the sample? Indeed, among their own there will certainly be those who say, they say, you can do better.
      And further. Can licensed weapons be traded? Probably you can.
      And only the last thing that came to mind was the prestige of the country, the arms trade as its own unique, as well as its own licenses. Well, and all that. Search engines on the Internet did not give an answer to the question.
      1. +5
        14 December 2021 11: 19
        For example, the T-26 tank.
        We bought a license for a two-turret vehicle and developed it into a one-turret "tank-fighter".
        The license has a validity period and the agreed "nuances" - modernization, sale to other countries, etc.
        The Poles, not agreeing with the Belgians in the price of FN BAR, found a legal loophole and released this light machine gun / automatic rifle without a license!
        1. +6
          14 December 2021 11: 30
          Quote: hohol95
          For example, the T-26 tank.

          T-26 and Vickers 6-ton, as they say, find 10 differences: hi

          1. +3
            14 December 2021 12: 19
            The main difference inside the cars is the arrangement of the engines !!!
            1. +5
              14 December 2021 15: 21
              The main difference inside the cars is the arrangement of the engines !!!


              Yeah, and as a result, the towers are shifted to different sides.

              T-26, Staraya Russa. They got it from the river in the 2000s.



              T-26, Vyborg, radio. In 1940, during the assault on Vyborg, he took part in the attack across the Vyborg Bay, and went under the ice. Raised from the bottom of the bay in 2005. When they got it, they found the remains of a crew member inside - it seems, they established an identity.

              1. +4
                14 December 2021 18: 39
                To be honest, the Finnish Vickers were considered model E, type B, but with a body from model F !!!
                In this model, the engine was originally placed in the hull, and the turret was moved to the other side! Then the Model F was abandoned, but the hulls were decided to be used on the Model E.
                Kuomintang "Vickers" are similar to the Soviet T-26, and the Finnish already have a different
                hull and other placement of the tower.
                1. +3
                  14 December 2021 20: 02
                  Kuomintang "Vickers" are similar to the Soviet T-26, and the Finnish ones already have a different hull and a different placement of the tower.

                  Alexey, unfortunately I don't know much about Vickers. But thanks! You also need to write ... drinks
                  EMNIP, "vickers" were used in the Chak war in South America.
                  1. +3
                    14 December 2021 22: 37
                    I read it from Pasholok!
                    In South America and Czechoslovakian Praga LTP (Tanque 39) were noted.
                    In 1939, the Peruvian army acquired a tank battalion of 24 LTP tanks.
                    The Ecuadorian army had to be convinced of the striking power of this battalion on July 23, 1941!
                    Tanks with the support of infantry broke through the front in the direction of the city of Puerto Bolivar. And the next day an air force was landed there.
                    Against the tanks, the Ecuadorian army was powerless ...
                    These tanks were used in the Peruvian army until the end of the 80s of the 20th century !!!
                    1. +2
                      14 December 2021 23: 54
                      These tanks were used in the Peruvian army until the end of the 80s of the 20th century !!!

                      This, Alexey, is called with the capacious words "krokhobor" and "rogue". bully Looks like the Finns were richer! laughing
                      1. +3
                        15 December 2021 00: 04
                        Alas. This is called - the specificity of the landscape of the country!
                        They demanded a tank weighing from 5 to 6 tons!
                        And now they are looking for a tank capable of "working" on their difficult mountain landscape!
                        They are still "tanking" the T-55 !!!
                        It is clear that they are not rich. And the neighboring countries are no more "tank dangerous".
                        And what are the Finns richer?
                        Czech tanks were better than Vickers by 1939!
                        Only Czechoslovakia itself was soon gone, and the Germans did not sell Czech tanks. They released it only for themselves. They even took the batch for the Swedes, and sold the production license to the Swedes!
                        And the Finns did not even "drop in" to the Czechs.
                        I wonder why?
                      2. +3
                        15 December 2021 09: 14
                        I wonder why?

                        I think that the main funds, taking into account the landscape of the country, were used for bunkers. hi At the beginning of the Soviet-Finnish war, the Finns and tanks had - the cat cried
                      3. +3
                        15 December 2021 10: 10
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        At the beginning of the Soviet-Finnish war, the Finns and tanks had - the cat cried

                        Nikolay, I found the following data at the beginning of the Winter War:

                        34 tank "Renault FT" (part without weapons)
                        32 tanks "Vickers" 6 tons E (most are unarmed, 13 tanks participated in the battles with the Red Army)
                        1 Vickers Carden Lloyd wedge (used for training purposes until 1941)
                        1 light tank "Vickers Cardin Lloyd" (used for training purposes until 1943)
                        1 light tank "Vickers" 6 tons B (armed with the original 47-mm short-barreled cannon, did not participate in the "Winter War")
                        6 armored vehicles Landsverk-182
                      4. +1
                        15 December 2021 10: 11
                        The cat would cry more ...
                        It is not for nothing that several pillboxes were called "millionaires"!
                        Like the Maginot line - first "money in concrete" - then "concrete in the air"!
                    2. +2
                      15 December 2021 10: 13
                      Quote: hohol95
                      In 1939, the Peruvian army acquired a tank battalion of 24 LTP tanks.
                      The Ecuadorian army had to be convinced of the striking power of this battalion on July 23, 1941!
                      Tanks with the support of infantry broke through the front in the direction of the city of Puerto Bolivar. And the next day an air force was landed there.
                      Against the tanks, the Ecuadorian army was powerless ...

                      Interesting! Didn't know about tank battles in South America! hi
                      1. +2
                        15 December 2021 10: 27
                        Haven't you heard of the war between Bolivia and Paraguay in 1932-1935?
                        The Bolivians had 3 !!! "Vickers 6-ton".
                        2 single-tower and 1 double-tower.
                        But they did not help Bolivia, as did the German and Chilean counterparts!
          2. +3
            14 December 2021 22: 52
            And yet - the tower at the Finnish "Vickers" SINGLE "!
            A crew of 3 people - a mechanic driver, a turret gunner (most likely the vehicle commander) and a gunner from the Suomi submission targeting unit. "Embrasure" on the left side of the driver's hatch.
      2. +4
        14 December 2021 11: 25
        Quote: depressant
        Why does every country that is capable of this try to produce its own weapons?

        I believe, Lyudmila Yakovlevna, point # 1 is the strategic security of the country: if something happens, weapons may not be sold, but you can always produce your own. hi
        1. +2
          14 December 2021 11: 44
          Yes, I agree, this is perhaps the most important thing. Indeed, in the process of fighting, weapons are lost, deteriorated. Different sources say different things. Some argue that during the "winter war" Finland captured more than 3000 Soviet DP-27 light machine guns as trophies, and this turned out to be so many, and the Finnish soldiers preferred to fight with captured DP, because it is more convenient and reliable than the Finnish Lahti light machine guns. Saloranta, that allegedly for this reason the Finnish machine gun was removed from service and began to fight as a trophy. In general, you will not find the end, how many Finns actually took our weapons. But this means that no matter how much they took, these were our losses, which could not be replenished in any other way, except by our own production.
          1. +2
            14 December 2021 12: 13
            Quote: depressant
            In general, you will not find the end, how many Finns actually took our weapons.

            I believe that these figures are known, the Finns are very pedantic and everyone thought, just the exact data is most likely mostly in Finnish, and even Viktor Nikolayevich does not know it. hi
            Finland captured more than 3000 Soviet DP-27 light machine guns as trophies

            EMNIP they were in service in Finland until the 70s and the Finns produced components for them.
            1. +3
              14 December 2021 12: 17
              You mean without any license?
              1. +4
                14 December 2021 12: 22
                good naturally hi
                Spare parts for captured weapons and licensed - a smart idea, but unacceptable!
              2. +3
                14 December 2021 12: 27
                Quote: depressant
                You mean without any license?

                It is unlikely that there was a talk about the purchase of any license.
              3. +5
                14 December 2021 12: 37
                You mean without any license?

                Why a license for the production of parts for captured weapons? In 1944, the Finns were armed with 9048 DP-27 machine guns. But there were also DT and YES. Everything went into business, nothing was thrown away.
                1. +3
                  14 December 2021 12: 44
                  Why a license for the production of parts for captured weapons? In 1944, the Finns were armed with 9048 DP-27 machine guns. But there were also DT and YES. Everything went into business, nothing was thrown away.

                  They had so many of them that they even removed their Lahti light machine guns from the combat units ...

                  It is unlikely that there was a talk about the purchase of any license.

                  EMNIP, the Poles produced BAR without a license before the war, and equipped their army with it. I could be wrong.
                  1. +5
                    14 December 2021 12: 47
                    You are wrong. 7,92 mm rkm Browning wz. 1928 was produced under license.
                    1. +3
                      14 December 2021 12: 49
                      You are wrong. 7,92 mm rkm Browning wz. 1928 was produced under license.

                      This I quoted from memory Taras, "Operation Weiss". Alas for me, alas, Viktor Nikolaevich! My life! recourse
                      1. +5
                        14 December 2021 12: 54
                        Without a license, they produced the American Browning M1917 easel under the name Ckm wz. thirty.
                      2. +3
                        14 December 2021 12: 55
                        Without a license, they produced the American Browning M1917 easel under the name Ckm wz. thirty.

                        Vooot! So, I misled the machine guns! Yes
                      3. +5
                        14 December 2021 12: 58
                        By the way, the Poles installed these machine guns on carts. Only anti-aircraft tachanka!
                      4. +3
                        14 December 2021 13: 10
                        By the way, the Poles installed these machine guns on carts. Only anti-aircraft tachanka!

                        Did not know! See how many more new topics are opening up for you? Write about a little-known weapon! Yes
                        If necessary, I will share a photo of a rusty Polish "VS" from the Pskov museum.
                      5. +5
                        14 December 2021 13: 26
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        If necessary, I will share a photo of a rusty Polish "VS" from the Pskov museum.

                        The Finns remember Polish guns in service: hi
                      6. +5
                        14 December 2021 13: 32
                        Finns remember Polish guns in service

                        They were still those little ones. One aircraft fleet is worth something.
                        These guns, by the way, were invented by the Swedes, "Bofors". The Poles made them under license. As well as the 40-mm anti-aircraft gun from the "Bofors" same.
                      7. +4
                        14 December 2021 13: 36
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        These guns, by the way, were invented by the Swedes, "Bofors"

                        Here are presented (from left to right): Swedish, Finnish and Polish. hi
                      8. +3
                        14 December 2021 13: 52
                        Here are presented (from left to right): Swedish, Finnish and Polish.

                        Is it from Hämeenlinna?
                      9. +3
                        14 December 2021 13: 53
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        Is it from Hämeenlinna?

                        Yes, from there, the tank museum in Parola. hi
                      10. +3
                        14 December 2021 18: 55
                        The Finns bought only 37 Polish 10mm Bofors from the Germans.
                        And they themselves produced 355.
                        The Romanians bought 556 Polish 37mm Bofors from the Germans.
                      11. +3
                        14 December 2021 13: 38
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        They were still those little ones.

                        This is for sure, I remember that someone counted that for the period of WW2 they had 19 types of helmets in service. hi
                      12. +4
                        14 December 2021 13: 51
                        This is for sure, I remember that someone counted that for the period of WW2 they had 19 types of helmets in service.

                        I don’t know about helmets, but a familiar search engine found six-shot packs from Italian "carcano" on the Karelian Isthmus.
                      13. +5
                        14 December 2021 14: 10
                        packs from Italian "carcano"

                        Carcano mod. 38
                      14. +4
                        14 December 2021 14: 17
                        Carcano mod. 38

                        Yes exactly. I couldn't find the rifle itself, but I did find the packs. Then he called me for "identification". And then I remembered about Shpakovsky's article about this rifle. Otherwise, I had a stupor - if a rifle with a pack, then why six casings?
                      15. +5
                        14 December 2021 14: 44
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        Write about a little-known weapon!

                        Yes, for example, it would be interesting to read about this exotic gun:

                      16. +4
                        14 December 2021 14: 53
                        Yes, for example, it would be interesting to read about this exotic gun.

                        What is it, Barrymore ?? belay
                        As far as I could get your picture closer, is it a Finnish experimental craft based on some kind of German cannon? They were still those inventors - they were busy with the BT-42 for several years.
                        By the way, it is a matter of respect that the inscriptions in the museum are also in Russian. On the other hand, I suspect that a good half of the visitors are ours. drinks
                      17. +4
                        14 December 2021 15: 03
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        As far as I could get your picture closer, is it a Finnish experimental craft based on some kind of German cannon?

                        Yes, something like a "gloomy Finnish genius". An interesting point is that after the war, the Finns collaborated with an Israeli company and again tried to bring this gun "to mind" together with it, but it did not work out.
                        By the way, it is a matter of respect that the inscriptions in the museum are also in Russian. On the other hand, I suspect that a good half of the visitors are ours.

                        Yes, our people go there very willingly (or rather, they went) and even the uncle at the checkout spoke excellent Russian. The inscriptions are all in Finnish, Swedish and Russian, and if the model of weapons is still, for example, Polish, then also in Polish. hi
                      18. +8
                        14 December 2021 15: 08
                        Yes, something like a "gloomy Finnish genius".

                        "Leisurely Finnish genius" ... laughing



                        Yes, our people go there very willingly (or rather, they went) and even the uncle at the checkout spoke excellent Russian. The inscriptions are all in Finnish, Swedish and Russian, and if the model of weapons is still, for example, Polish, then also in Polish.

                        Drove only to the border shop for those who "roll back the Schengen." The saleswomen in the departments are all ours. Finns are sitting at the checkout. Fish is gorgeous ...
                2. +4
                  14 December 2021 13: 56
                  Everything went into business, nothing was thrown away.

                  Thanks to this, many rare weapons have survived to this day.
                  The same AVS-36, SVT-38, PPD-34, PPD 34/38, PPD-40.
                  And this is only from the Soviet ...
                  The T-III tank, as far as I remember, was in service with them until the 1960s.
                  And that was removed only because the spare parts ran out ...

                  Yours faithfully,
                3. +2
                  14 December 2021 18: 14
                  There is a "suspicion" that some of the 9048 DP machine guns were bought by the Finnish military from the "guys" from the Third Reich.
                  1. +4
                    14 December 2021 20: 03
                    There is a "suspicion" that some of the 9048 DP machine guns were bought by the Finnish military from the "guys" from the Third Reich.

                    By the way, it is quite possible. They also bought captured guns from them.
            2. +3
              14 December 2021 14: 36
              The Finns bought part of the Soviet weapons and aircraft engines M-105 from the Germans.
          2. +4
            14 December 2021 12: 30
            In general, you will not find the end, how many Finns actually took our weapons.

            The ends are found without problem in Finnish sources. As of June 1940, the Finns had 3420 DP-27 machine guns in service.
            1. +3
              14 December 2021 13: 06
              Viktor Nikolaevich, with your submission from the weapon, I involuntarily stretched a thread to the phenomenon called "Winter War", from there - to the history of the issue ...
              In general, I was horrified. It always seemed to me that the Finns are so good-natured, well, like more northern Russians, and the "Winter War" is something accidental. And there...
              There, inside Finland, it was monstrous in relation to the Russians, no weaker than in the Chechen wars. That's how you live and don't know.
              1. +2
                14 December 2021 13: 11
                In general, I was horrified. It always seemed to me that the Finns are so good-natured, well, like more northern Russians, and the "Winter War" is something accidental. And there...

                In 1941-44 they stained themselves with atrocities. That's the whole story about the "good-natured Finns".
                1. +3
                  14 December 2021 17: 01
                  In Soviet times, drunkenness. Drunken "beads" to St. Petersburg.
              2. +5
                14 December 2021 13: 22
                Quote: depressant
                It always seemed to me that the Finns are so good-natured

                About the good-natured Finns - you certainly bent it. hi
                1. +4
                  14 December 2021 13: 44
                  I bent, I bent ...
                  Here's what we managed to find about the First World War:

                  The separation of Finland from Russia was not peaceful. A civil war broke out between white and red Finns. The Whites were supported by Germany. The Soviet government refrained from large-scale support for the Reds. Therefore, with the help of the Germans, the White Finns gained the upper hand. The winners created a network of concentration camps, unleashed the White Terror, during which tens of thousands of people died (during the hostilities themselves, only a few thousand people died on both sides). In addition to the Reds and their supporters, the Finns "cleaned out" the Russian community in Finland. Moreover, the majority of Russians in Finland, including refugees from Russia who fled from the Bolsheviks, did not support the Reds and the Soviet regime. Former officers of the tsarist army, their families, representatives of the bourgeoisie, intelligentsia, numerous students, the entire Russian population indiscriminately, women, old people and children were exterminated. Significant material values ​​belonging to the Russians were confiscated.
                  1. +4
                    14 December 2021 13: 50
                    Quote: depressant
                    I bent, I bent ...
                    Here's what we managed to find about the First World War:

                    Here you can recommend a good book by Denis Popov (interestingly, just like Viktor Nikolaevich - Popov) wassat :
                    1. +2
                      14 December 2021 16: 59
                      You can also remember my great love, hockey. Forever fourth on the world champions. Big three-USSR, Czechoslovakia, Sweden and they. Ah! God be their judge.
                      1. +2
                        14 December 2021 18: 52
                        Seryozha you will not believe, but, having gained independence, Finland immediately began to orient itself towards the Entente countries! Independence seemed to her a little. The Finnish elite immediately banned Karelia, the Kola Peninsula and began to make plans to create a "Great Finland" with the inclusion of Arkhangelsk, and Russian lands up to the Northern Urals, Ob and Yenisei, citing the fact that the Urals and Western Siberia are the ancestral homeland of Finno -Ugric language family. Here is the Polovtsy with the Pechenegs! And I was also surprised that the Finns are planting all sorts of school courses in our country in Karelia, they organize free travel trips for children's groups. I did not take all this seriously, but it is quite serious. Who would have thought! Worse than Poland.
                  2. +2
                    14 December 2021 17: 25
                    "good-natured Finns".
                    So, do they / we have? For this body has recently been in the KHL / such a hot Finnish guy with a typical Finnish surname-Leo Komaroff. What is he famous for? No, no. Not pocketed goals, not assistance, but! Dirty play! Pickups, running boards, elbows are his style.
                    1. +3
                      14 December 2021 19: 02
                      Fan!... wassat )))
                      Just today I read an article and that the fate of the Romans is prepared for the Russian nation. They say we will dissolve, like the Romans, among other peoples, and they will carry our culture further. But the author of the article did not realize that the culture of the Romans was further carried by the Christians, and the culture of the Russians would be trampled down to the point of disappearance by the Muslims. For in the first case, there is one religion, and in the second, they are hostile.
                      1. +2
                        14 December 2021 19: 43
                        Lyudmila! Do not aggravate me, my dear, have you forgotten? For I am an agnostic! In fact. Prove the existence of one and I? I agree, perhaps.
                      2. +2
                        14 December 2021 20: 07
                        Agnostic ...)))

                        You deny the possibility of knowing objective reality through your subjective experience, while touching upon the subject of your objections I mentioned, I went through an experience that gave me knowledge of reality, which allows me to carry out a comparative historical analysis and draw a certain conclusion on its basis. But you are right. Today we are discussing, but tomorrow it will shy away! .. wassat )))
            2. +2
              14 December 2021 20: 05
              As of June 1940, the Finns had 3420 DP-27 machine guns in service.

              Viktor Nikolaevich, I suppose - these are light machine guns of two Soviet divisions in the state? ...
              1. +2
                14 December 2021 20: 11
                Quote: Pane Kohanku
                light machine guns of two Soviet divisions in the state?
                hi what
                In total, the rifle division in the 04/20 state of 13.9.1939 had 18 906 people. l / s.

                In service consisted of: 4212 rifles in rifle units, 534 light machine guns, 162 heavy bullets, 327 mortars for throwing rifle grenades, 81 50-mm mortars, 36 82-mm mortars, 12 120-mm mortars, 60 PT rifles (*) , 54 45-mm guns, 18 76-mm regimental guns, 20 76-mm divisional guns, 28 122-mm howitzers, 12 152-mm howitzers, 33 anti-aircraft machine guns, 8 37-mm anti-aircraft guns, 4 76-mm anti-aircraft guns , 16 amphibious tanks, 12 armored vehicles, 746 vehicles of all types, 92 tractors (tracked tractors), 6200 horses
                1. +4
                  14 December 2021 20: 26
                  534 light machine guns

                  Victor, welcome! drinks Is this a quote from G.K. Zhukov, "Memories and Reflections", the first volume?
                  As of June 1940, the Finns had 3420 DP-27 machine guns in service.

                  It turns out that according to our states the Finns could offer 6,5 sets of light machine guns for the division ... Our machine guns ...
                  60 PT guns (*)

                  Just where would they come from in 1940 .... A paradox!
                  1. +3
                    14 December 2021 20: 33
                    Good health, I wish!
                    Her ... Vicky)
                    Ibid:

                    *) the number of PTR in the state was set in advance, for the Rukavishnikov PTR, which was being developed at that time, which was never put into production
                    Reflections Zhukov -so to myself sources to be honest I read it like that in my youth.

                    Quote: Pane Kohanku
                    6,5 sets of light machine guns for the division ..

                    In fact, more. There was never any real saturation in these states. And in subsequent years, the states were steadily reduced. In August of the 41st light machine guns were supposed to be 162 pieces in the state.
                  2. +1
                    15 December 2021 21: 49
                    British Boys!
                    During the "Winter War" 200 pieces were purchased. Received 100 until the end of the war. The remaining 100 after the end of the battles.
                    Own 20mm 20pst.kiv L-39.
                    They began to act during the battles.
  9. +7
    13 December 2021 23: 37
    The story with the control-culling of trunks is simply amazing! Well, not visually, did they check them, that is, not only visually? There are non-destructive testing methods that will accurately show the presence and nature of cracks, cavities, etc.
    It seems that at first someone needed to reject the trunks, and then the situation changed.
  10. +5
    13 December 2021 23: 46
    The article is written in a confident, professional language. Very readable.
    I was surprised to read the comments that this is the first article by the author.
    Respect for the author!
    And thanks again for yesterday's consultations. good
    1. +6
      14 December 2021 04: 44
      This article is far from the first, it was just a big break. Thanks to the author for the hard work!
  11. +3
    14 December 2021 17: 15
    Victor Nikolaevich! First of all, thanks for the article. Not a gunsmith, but ... read it. And here's a question. What team did this Sevon play for? I searched, looked, but? I didn’t find it.
    1. +4
      14 December 2021 17: 34
      I'll get home and try to find it.
      1. +3
        14 December 2021 17: 37
        Aha! Thanks again!
  12. +4
    14 December 2021 20: 09
    Luger P08 and Bergman-Bayard. From Luger - taken barrel, handle, magazine, from Bergman-Bayard - the principle of automatic operation (using the recoil of the barrel with its short stroke), the design of the shutter and locking unit. Locking was carried out by a wedge moving in a vertical plane.


    As far as I know, the principle of operation of the Luger P08 automation is also the use of recoil of the barrel with its short stroke request
    1. +3
      15 December 2021 09: 33
      Correct remark!
  13. +2
    14 December 2021 20: 52
    Okay, I'll grumble aside about agnosticism. A person is given associative thinking, which allows one to generalize an experience in which he did not participate, which is alien to him, and to draw the right conclusions.
    Such nice people - representatives of, as it is aptly noted here, the "gloomy Finnish genius" from the arms industry. But an association stretched out of my restless brain, groping for something to attach to, so that, having satiated, grow further, and reached the "Winter War", and from the "Winter" - to the Second World War, then further and suddenly stopped fearfully, rushing into horror mustache ...

    TABLE.
    Growth of the economies of the leading countries of the world in 1990 - 2020 in terms of gross domestic product (GDP).

    China = 2054%
    India = 725%
    Turkey = 669%
    South Korea = 551%
    Indonesia = 506%
    Poland = 451%

    USA = 251%
    Russia = 245% (+ 2,9) - 98th
    Germany = 191%

    Doesn't he say anything? Doesn't it look like anything? Doesn't make you shudder?

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