Military Review

Let's sign something else in Minsk!

164

Russian President Vladimir Putin has proposed starting negotiations with NATO regarding the fact that the alliance will not move east. And not trusting oral promises, so as not to repeat the mistakes of one too gullible predecessor, formalize all this in a written agreement. Moreover, with legal guarantees that the gentlemen from the alliance will again not give up their words.


Good deed, only it was a little late. For 20 years.


Then, while the power of the Soviet Union was still there, there was an army and a navy, it was possible and necessary to try with all our might to stop the alliance on the way to our borders. Today all this can be described in one word - late.

Let's take a look at a map of NATO in Europe. We are most interested in it, and everything is clear with North America.

As you can see, the alliance picked up everything that could be picked up. In fact, only Ukraine, which has territorial disputes with Russia, and Moldova, which has territorial disputes with Transnistria, remained in the European part. And on the other side is Georgia, which also really wants to join NATO, but it also has territorial disputes with Russia.

Both Ukraine and Georgia sleep and see how to get into NATO. For some reason, they are confident that joining NATO will solve all the problems of these countries in terms of disputed territories and security.

There seem to be no more people around Russia who want to join the alliance. So, most likely, speaking of not moving NATO eastward, Putin was referring to these two countries.

In general, of course, when the OVD collapsed, then it was necessary to move. Now there are the wretched remnants of the empire. But even for them, apparently, there is a life-and-death war.

“In dialogue with the United States and its allies, we will insist on the development of specific agreements that would exclude any further NATO moves to the east and the deployment of systems that threaten us. weapons in close proximity to the territory of Russia ”.

Putin has more than clearly stated his vision of the issue. Do not accept Ukraine and Georgia, do not deploy attacking weapons. Otherwise…

And NATO heard the Russian president.

“We will also respect Ukraine’s decision that they seek NATO membership. We announced that they will become its members, but, of course, it is up to us, the 30 NATO allies, to decide when Ukraine is ready for membership, when they meet NATO standards. Russia has no veto. Russia does not have the right to vote. And Russia has no right to create a sphere of influence. "

This is the answer of NATO head Stoltenberg.

More than understandable, the answer is no. In the daytime with Russia, you can not stand on ceremony. It's too early to be rude, but you can already demonstrate your confidence.

In general, this is a new step for both sides. Both for Russia and for NATO.

For quite some time now, Russian leaders have been talking about NATO expansion worries. And the entry of Ukraine will be the last feature. What is behind this line has not yet been announced, but it is clear that leveling off the offensive weapons deployed in Ukraine will require enormous efforts and costs from Russia, but will not bring confidence in its own security.

Distances are too small. Shooting point-blank.

And so, after so many years, Russian politicians came to the conclusion that it is not enough to receive verbal statements and guarantees from NATO, it is time to move on to documentary evidence. At least with regards to Ukraine.

However, the map of military-political influence in Europe has already been drawn almost completely, and the allies in the alliance are clearly pursuing their policy, not taking into account the opinion of Russia especially. Therefore, the Russian Foreign Ministry and other top-ranking politicians can talk as much as they want about the fact that Russia is not going to attack Ukraine, give any arguments, the most important of which is, perhaps, the one that we can’t pull the content of the square - all in vain.

If Mr. Biden said that crocodiles fly, then they fly. Low, at night, but fly.

Accordingly, the alliance will "defend" Ukraine with all its might. Most likely, this will result in a further bombardment of the Armed Forces of Ukraine with various weapons until the time comes to accept the country into the ranks of the alliance. This is familiar.

Here, of course, the right of countries (Georgia and Ukraine in the first place) to conduct their policies as if non-admission to NATO is a terrible omission that must be corrected at any cost. A panacea for all problems.

The most piquant aspect of the situation is that most of the NATO member states are categorically against Ukraine's entry there. Precisely because of the situation with Russia. Everyone understands perfectly well that poverty-stricken Ukraine will have to be supported at their own expense, and also (God forbid) to be protected from Russian aggression.

Therefore, many today assess Ukraine's chances of becoming a full-fledged member of NATO as zero. It is too expensive - Ukraine, as a member of any bloc. Therefore, until now, both candidate countries are in a very, very uncertain status in NATO. On one side of the scale there are two new members near the borders of Russia, on the other - the need to support these militarily poor allies (do not forget that NATO membership costs money that neither Georgia nor Ukraine has), and a very likely confrontation with Russia itself.

NATO membership is an average of 1,5 to 2% of GDP. There are those who pay less (Luxembourg, 0,58%), there are those who pay more (Greece, 3,82%). We calculate: Ukraine's GDP is $ 181 billion. 2% is $ 3,62 billion.

Who will believe that such an amount is within the reach of Ukraine? Nobody believes in NATO either. Even a billion can hardly be knocked out of them. So nothing personal, just money.

And here you should not clench your fists in righteous anger. The fact that the alliance through the mouths of Stoltenberg and Biden says that they do not care about Russia's opinion is normal. You must admit that all these years NATO has taken into its ranks all the former republics and the wreckage of the republics of the former USSR and the OVD bloc and did it quite calmly.

Putin's desire, at least in theory, to secure Russia from the deployment of NATO contingent on the territory of Ukraine is understandable, but today the level of Russia's influence is somewhat different from what it was, say, 30 years ago. Here you can definitely ignore the opinion, which NATO is doing.

The only difference is that earlier it was done surreptitiously, but today it was done openly and without hesitation.

Actually, there is not much difference, the result is more important here.

But the "take / not take" result will be decided not in the confrontation with Russia, as the top officials of NATO have already announced, but within the bloc itself. And here everything is, perhaps, even worse for Ukraine than the negative on the part of Russia.

Stoltenberg correctly pointed out that Russia has no “veto” right. And no one will ask her. But Poland and Hungary have the right to "veto", with which Ukraine has very, very tense relations today. But if the Poles are blowing the same anti-Russian tune together with the Ukrainians, then Russian-Hungarian relations are experiencing a very serious warming.

There are also countries with which Russia has significantly improved its relations today. In addition to Hungary, this includes the Czech Republic and Italy. Yes, also Turkey, but only in terms of buying a vote, because the Turks will easily sell or change it.

As a result, at least four NATO members can vote against the admission of Ukraine, taking advantage of the opportunity to receive preferences from Russia.

I speak so calmly about buying votes, because this is a completely normal practice, including in our country. Buy, and easily and naturally. Fortunately - there is a reason.

And since the adoption of the same Ukraine requires the votes of ALL 26 NATO members, it is quite possible that political games around this process will drag on for more than one year.

Yes, in 2008 NATO drove itself into a corner, if not into a trap, when an agreement was signed in Bucharest, which clearly stated: Georgia and Ukraine will join NATO. Since then, no one has withdrawn their signatures, they have not refused their promises. True, the document does not say at all when this will happen. Nobody named any dates. So today the cries of Ukraine "Well, when, when?" don't get intelligible answers. And this is no less normal than Russia's attempts to secure itself against the deployment of NATO troops near its borders. Once again.

However, while the alliance has enough footholds in the Baltics. But - that's what for now. If a decision is made within NATO to accept Ukraine, there is no doubt that they will. Moreover, the promise was given.

In any case, Ukraine tomorrow is a springboard for trade between Russia and NATO. Yes, we can say that NATO operates in a moratorium on the admission of Ukraine, but at the same time it saves its face.

On the other hand, Russia has absolutely no leverage whatsoever on the alliance. Neither military nor political. Alas. Of course, a number of documents could be signed promising not to admit Ukraine to NATO. And this can be done in the same Minsk.

And that will be quite symbolic. The Minsk Agreements are something that has been written, but no one is going to fulfill it. And, most importantly, it does not bear any sanctions or punishments for this.

The NATO Nonproliferation Treaty on the territory of Ukraine and Georgia (the proud word "East" does not look here anymore) would be a document from the same opera - they would forget about it immediately after the ink had dried.

Alas, but the politics of our time is as follows: who is stronger, he acts as it is more convenient and profitable for him.
Author:
164 comments
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  1. Bez 310
    Bez 310 6 December 2021 11: 06
    +15
    Quite right - it's late ...
    1. mark1
      mark1 6 December 2021 11: 28
      +7
      well, yes, they drove into a corner, now either bite or give up (for experiments and food)
      1. Overlock
        Overlock 6 December 2021 15: 31
        -9
        Quote: mark1
        well, yes, they drove into a corner, now either bite or give up (for experiments and food)

        How did we get into this corner? Maybe you still need to negotiate?
        1. mark1
          mark1 6 December 2021 15: 42
          +10
          Quote: Overlock
          Maybe you still need to negotiate?

          To start negotiating, you need to create an equivalent problem (the problem for the United States, Europe is secondary), then you can exchange something for something. And contracts like ... "We'll give you something back and you wait a little for us to eat ..." I don't know who you should be, whether you are a fine-minded idiot, de- (Clinton), a traitor in the end ...
          So put 100 MRBM and KRBD in Chukotka and start negotiating - "... you, gentlemen, go that home, and we will remove the missiles ..."
          1. Overlock
            Overlock 6 December 2021 16: 06
            -9
            Quote: mark1
            To start negotiating, you need to create an equivalent problem

            So Putin at the collegium of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and "... urged to keep the West in suspense."
            https://www.gazeta.ru/politics/2021/11/18_a_14218411.shtml
            Helped?
            Quote: mark1
            So put 100 MRBM and KRBD in Chukotka and start negotiating - "... you, gentlemen, go that home, and we will remove the missiles ..."

            And the answer is the same, but in Ukraine. Didn't the Cuban Missile Crisis teach you?
            1. mark1
              mark1 6 December 2021 16: 11
              +6
              Quote: Overlock

              And the answer is the same, but in Ukraine

              And this somehow neutralizes the threat directly to the territory of the United States? This is not a solution to a problem, but a worsening of it. Moreover, the American SD weapon is theoretically already deployed (at least the Mk41 launcher) and warehouses with American TNW are available, but there is no equivalent shoulder from us yet.
              1. Overlock
                Overlock 6 December 2021 16: 58
                -9
                Quote: mark1
                And this somehow neutralizes the threat directly to the territory of the United States?

                To date, does the United States threaten the LDNR or Russia? - No. Confrontation between Ukraine and Russia. You proceed from the superiority of Russia over Ukraine, and this is already a mistake. Ukraine has taken a different path, which does not suit us.
                It was said a few years ago:
                - “You go into the forest with your ridiculous proposal! Russia has the full sovereign right to create the CSTO with anyone on a voluntary, mutually beneficial basis. Proceeding from this, Armenia has every right to enter the alliance that it considers necessary! ”.
                “Moreover, on the same basis, Russia has every right to place military bases containing non-nuclear weapons in the territories of any CSTO member, and neighboring Georgia, Azerbaijan and Turkey have no right to interfere in these matters. Armenia's membership in the CSTO and the deployment of a Russian military base in this country is an exclusively sovereign matter between Russia and Armenia, and not at all your business! ”
                So Ukraine wants to do the same and it does not consider itself second-rate.
                Quote: mark1
                especially since the American SD weapons are theoretically already deployed (at least the Mk41 launcher) and warehouses with American TNW are available

                And how was it under the Warsaw Pact? But for some reason, our former allies became our opponents. It is necessary to compensate, there is no doubt, but not at the cost of a war, the victory in which will be Prirova
                1. mark1
                  mark1 6 December 2021 17: 44
                  +8
                  You. my nebrother, there is a lot of small caviar. Learn once and for all, Ukraine and other countries have the right to create any blocs and threats to Russia, as well as be responsible for their actions. If it's easier, if you want to do something dirty, be ready to get it, and you my enemies started to do it in 1992, so the answer is very late and you are already yelling as if you were stabbed to death. Yes, in general, then you are generally a dirty little thing, the main threat is the territory you have on which the Americans are pinning their ass. The big game goes with them and not with you consumables (we made ourselves that way)
                  1. Overlock
                    Overlock 6 December 2021 20: 38
                    -5
                    Quote: mark1
                    You. my nebrother, there is a lot of small caviar.

                    You spawn caviar in your fevered brain
                    Quote: mark1
                    Learn once and for all, Ukraine and other countries have the right to create any blocs and threats to Russia, as well as be responsible for their actions. If it's easier, you want to do something dirty, be ready to get it, and you my enemies started to do it in 1992,

                    What happened in 1992? What nasty thing did the Ukrainians do to you? For what do they have to answer to you, the great!? If you can read, then look at the chronology of the collapse of the USSR:
                    Russia- 12 June In 1990, at the first Congress of People's Deputies of the RSFSR, the Declaration on State Sovereignty of the RSFSR was adopted.
                    Ukraine- July 21 1990 - The Supreme Council of the Ukrainian SSR adopted the Declaration on State Sovereignty of Ukraine. It was people like you who destroyed the USSR with their irrepressible lust for power
                    Quote: mark1
                    yes, in general, then you are generally a dirty little thing, the main threat is the territory you have on which the Americans are pinning their ass

                    Zombie victim. Your diseased brain cannot even imagine that in Russia there are people with a different opinion, different from your meager opinion. The transition to insults means that there are no other arguments. Remember, I am Russian and live in Russia. Thank God that there are fewer people like you, because these are the very threats to the country because of your paranoia. It is even useless to treat you, this cannot be treated. It is impossible for you to live in the world because of the chauvinism that lives in you. So you and Hitler will soon become.
                    Quote: mark1
                    The big game goes with them and not with you consumables (we made ourselves that way)

                    Hey, a participant in a big game, you are the same consumable as a Ukrainian. I prefer not to become one, unlike you. Don't watch TV at night.
                    I don’t want to communicate with the inadequate anymore, adieu
                    1. Kittymoore
                      Kittymoore 6 December 2021 22: 38
                      -2
                      Hey, a participant in a big game, you are the same consumable as a Ukrainian.


                      The smartest thing I've heard on this site. The local "strategists" for some reason believe that they have a place in a boat on the Titanic).

                      As if they were not a tax-paying estate, but "decision makers" with the right to vote in the Security Council.
                  2. Bogatyrev
                    Bogatyrev 8 December 2021 00: 22
                    +3
                    Yes, I agree, all sovereign countries have the sovereign right to rake in full for their decisions affecting the strategic balance of power.
                2. Alex777
                  Alex777 6 December 2021 21: 20
                  +9
                  Quote: Overlock
                  But for some reason, our former allies became our opponents.

                  And in the Second World War they were our opponents, not allies.
                  So there is nothing surprising here for us. bully
                3. dim999
                  dim999 7 December 2021 14: 07
                  +2
                  Quote: Overlock
                  To date, does the United States threaten the LDNR or Russia? - No. Confrontation between Ukraine and Russia.


                  Who are the Martians? Naturally the USA. Specifically, in the LPRP part, using the APU as a consumable.
                  Quote: Overlock
                  But for some reason, our former allies became our opponents.

                  ??? Were these Czechs or Hungarians allies? Or Poles?))) It's just now politically incorrect to call a Negro a Negro, and in the USSR, Hitler's defeated allies - a temporarily rendered harmless enemy.
            2. dim999
              dim999 7 December 2021 13: 49
              -1
              It is precisely the Cuban missile crisis that teaches that if missiles are delivered to Cuba, then their withdrawal can be exchanged for the withdrawal of missiles from Turkey. And the missiles in Ukraine are good, the flight time from Poland is not very different from it, but you can organize a lot of anything interesting with them in the chaos in the VNA, and for them VNA itself too.)
          2. Sad235
            Sad235 6 December 2021 19: 55
            -1
            And in the Baltics will deliver.? AND.?
        2. Kir Duc
          Kir Duc 6 December 2021 17: 20
          -1
          Sheep contracts with wolves always know how they end ...
        3. businessv
          businessv 6 December 2021 18: 03
          +3
          Quote: Overlock
          How did we get into this corner? Maybe you still need to negotiate?
          With whom?! Who is ready to negotiate with the country, which the entire west, led by a mattress, is pouring mud? The novel has laid out everything correctly, no one is going to reckon with us, and this is a regrettable fact!
      2. ivan2022
        ivan2022 8 December 2021 08: 25
        +1
        Quote: mark1
        well, yes, they drove into a corner, now either bite or give up (for experiments and food)

        And what? This is not a weak experiment either: to find out the limits of the universal "support and approval" of our blessed society.
        ... One problem is that it has only two states: "senseless and merciless approval" and "senseless and merciless rebellion." The task of the rulers is to use the first so as not to get caught up in the second. Successful so far!
    2. knn54
      knn54 6 December 2021 12: 00
      +13
      TODAY, it is almost impossible to reliably secure such a desire in the form of legally binding agreements.
      If there is a desire, you can always withdraw from any agreement that, for one reason or another, primarily for political expediency, has ceased to satisfy the leadership of the signatory party.
      TODAY, it remains only to CAREFULLY observe from the sidelines the irresponsible expansion of the block until it collapses under its own weight.
      For, as Napoleon said, "All empires die of indigestion",
      And in parallel, it is necessary to carry out a balanced and competent work to remove the far-fetched concerns of the neighbors of the Russian Federation regarding their security.
      1. Civil
        Civil 6 December 2021 14: 02
        +11
        And why does no one voice the reasons for the mass flight to the West, the countries traditionally included in the sphere of influence of Russia?
        The same Ukrainians look from the side of their wallet, that is, they see the economic results of the Baltic mice and the former Warsaw Treaty countries in Eastern Europe. And they look at the results of Russia's economic development.
        And this is the only correct answer - Russia did not offer an attractive version of economic and social development, competing with the European one.
        And since 30 years have passed, all doubts are gone. Together with the fall in the average salary of the Russian Federation to the countries of black Africa. All that remains is the forceful compulsion to cohabitation. Well, Russia has no choice - only military successes will help stabilize the internal political situation. This will help a little ...
        1. Overlock
          Overlock 6 December 2021 15: 38
          +2
          Quote: Civil
          The same Ukrainians look from the side of their wallet, that is, they see the economic results of the Baltic mice and the former Warsaw Treaty countries in Eastern Europe. And they look at the results of Russia's economic development.

          Unfortunately, Russia was unable to show them an economically and politically attractive model of the state.
          Agree, the middle class with 200 bucks in your pocket does not sound attractive. Confrontation with the West also does not arouse sympathy for them.
          Now, these processes are going through the roof. As we will not be critical of the Ukrainians, but they influence their elections in favor of one or another candidate. They wanted to demolish Poroshenko, they chose Zelensky. In 2 years, they will also demolish Zelensky, but now Zelensky is careful in his decisions due to the fear of the Maidan. Irremovable, eternal Poroshenko or Zelensky, or someone else, is impossible in Ukraine and they will not want to lose this right. One can gloat over the success of these changes, but they are changes. Movement is always better than stagnation
          1. dauria
            dauria 6 December 2021 19: 09
            +7
            Irremovable, eternal Poroshenko or Zelensky, or someone else - is impossible in Ukraine and they will not want to lose this right

            Hmm. You are blinded. Ukraine is fundamentally different from the United States and Russia. The screen is changing in the USA, it is not changing in Russia. But this does not lead to the redistribution of "factories, newspapers, ships", as well as banks and authorities ... And in Ukraine, with each change of "president" begins the redistribution of power and property. The oligarchic wars have not ended. They didn’t sit down at the round table and, gritting their teeth, didn’t work out a rule sacred to capitalism - "We don’t gnaw our own people, although we really want to." Who will encroach - that to shreds.
            Or do you seriously think that Putin expelled Berezovsky, Gusinsky and others? Naivnyak. Their
            thrown out at the meeting of the oligarchs by a common decision, as if they had disobeyed.
            And you have invented some kind of freedom for the Ukrainian people. Funny . The pans are fighting. And the worst thing is that foreigners are called to ally in the struggle.
            1. Overlock
              Overlock 6 December 2021 20: 30
              -6
              Quote: dauria
              Hmm. You are blinded. Ukraine is fundamentally different from the United States and Russia.

              I am not blind, as I see it. Kuchma's postulate has been living for a long time, but it is only beginning to reach the consciousness of many now.
              Quote: dauria
              And in Ukraine, with each change of "president" begins the redistribution of power and property. The oligarchic wars have not ended. They did not sit down at a round table and, gritting their teeth, did not work out a rule sacred to capitalism

              What do you mean! Who liquidated the "Semibankirshchina"? Who appropriated the possession of Khodarkovsky? Tell me also that for the legend he was sitting in the Vip-cell of the colony, and he sewed mittens only for the camera?
              Quote: dauria
              Or do you seriously think that Putin expelled Berezovsky, Gusinsky and others? Naivnyak. Their
              thrown out at the meeting of the oligarchs by a common decision, as if they had disobeyed.

              Of course, after all, it is the president’s buddies who have come out that are now taking all orders from the state. Therefore, they threw out the rest - money and the possibilities of their development
              Quote: dauria
              And you have invented some kind of freedom for the Ukrainian people.

              And I didn’t make it up. Can you influence elections at any level? Rhetorical question
        2. qQQQ
          qQQQ 6 December 2021 18: 26
          +4
          Quote: Civil
          The Ukrainians look at it from the side of their wallet, that is, they see the economic results of the Baltic mice and the former Warsaw Treaty countries in Eastern Europe. And they look at the results of Russia's economic development.

          In addition to free money, no one offered these countries anything, but it was Russia that offered, in the form of resources and sales markets, development, albeit slow, but nevertheless. Name the economic achievements of these limitrophes, the industry has been liquidated, the population is leaving. Russia has offered to work on its future, but everyone wants freebies. Therefore, yes, we cannot compete with the West, we do not have a printing press to overwhelm our neighbors with currency.
          1. Civil
            Civil 6 December 2021 20: 35
            -3
            it was Russia that offered, in the form of resources and sales markets, development, albeit slow, but nevertheless

            There were such examples too, and they all burst, the same Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus, they tried to bind everyone with resources ... nothing came of it. All in different ways became impoverished on a par with Russia.
            Russia offered to work on its future,
            We have been working on our future for 30 years and have arrived, everything is already clear. We could not offer or come up with anything.
            we do not have a printing press to fill our neighbors with currency

            There is nothing in principle. Already. Everyone sees how the Russian government squeezes out everything it can from the poor population, like a boa constrictor strangles a rabbit, squeezing a victim with each exhalation. Is this how we want to attract neighbors?
            1. Alex777
              Alex777 6 December 2021 21: 29
              +2
              Quote: Civil

              There were such examples too, and they all burst, the same Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus, they tried to bind everyone with resources ... nothing came of it. All in different ways became impoverished on a par with Russia.

              Eh ... .... ...
              Parts of one country are not competitive.
              In the West, they are needed only for the further destruction of Russia.
              Not for anything else. Therefore, they failed. This is not Russia's fault.
              Cut off oil and gas for them and there will be neither Ukraine, nor Moldova, no one.
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. Alex777
                  Alex777 7 December 2021 08: 54
                  0
                  You needed a colleague Civil (Vadim) answer.
                  You dispute this assertion of his. Not mine.
                  I also disagree with him.

                  Quote: qqqq
                  Although it may be that everything is going in an evolutionary way, there will be enough breakthroughs and revolutions.

                  And here I completely agree with you.
                  1. qQQQ
                    qQQQ 7 December 2021 08: 56
                    +1
                    Quote: Alex777
                    You had to answer Civil (Vadim).

                    Sori, I didn't notice.
            2. qQQQ
              qQQQ 7 December 2021 08: 57
              -1
              Quote: Civil
              There were such examples too, and they all burst.

              They did not burst, they did not pay attention to them, tk. taken for granted. But now, at the slightest hint of tearing away from the freebie, they immediately squeal like pigs. After the collapse and liquidation of industry, 30 years are many, but the destruction was not small. Most importantly, without Russia and what worked, almost everything stopped. There is nothing, it is very loudly said. There are many negative things, but there are still positive changes. Well, now we do not have a leader of the level of Stalin to make a leap. Although it may be that everything is going in an evolutionary way, there will be enough breakthroughs and revolutions.
    3. paul3390
      paul3390 6 December 2021 12: 06
      +25
      Putin has been playing giveaway with the West for too long. It's too late - now no one will listen to his type of warning, because they simply will not believe in their seriousness. Few people believe in him even inside the country, let alone outside the cordon .. As they say - having lied once ..

      The West understands strength and only strength. And you must constantly demonstrate it, and not play dear partners. Even if such a demonstration hits the dearest one - the wallet. For otherwise, it will simply be trivially taken away. It is a pity that our big ones do not want to understand the obvious things.
      1. Akuzenka
        Akuzenka 6 December 2021 12: 48
        +16
        Even if such a demonstration hits the dearest one - the wallet. For otherwise, it will simply be trivially taken away. It is a pity that our big ones do not want to understand the obvious things.
        They understand everything, only they cannot do anything, already. Their children are hostages of the West. "Their" money is hostage to the West. They cannot bite, only poke around, so carefully. They will hand over the country for promises! immunity. But they, as always, will be deceived. As passed in 1917, as passed in 1991, so will the near future. There are no statesmen in reality, there are capitalist ministers trembling for "their" money and children. However, children can be handed over, money is more important to them.
      2. Sad235
        Sad235 6 December 2021 20: 01
        -2
        Yeah, that is, you are ready to reduce your personal expenses in order to fight the insidious west.? My wife was consulted.? Have you been to the store or pharmacy for a long time.?
      3. qQQQ
        qQQQ 7 December 2021 08: 53
        +1
        Quote: paul3390
        Putin has been playing giveaway with the West for too long.

        I was always worried about the question, was he playing against or playing out a scenario for the electorate? Very often decisions were made to please the partners.
        1. Alex777
          Alex777 7 December 2021 09: 01
          -1
          I will answer the question that worried you:
          We will never again have a President whose father miraculously saved
          mother from starvation during the war. And he lost his brother.
          Since he understands what war is, so few people understand. hi

          Quote: qqqq
          Very often decisions were made to please the partners.

          What do you have in mind?
          1. qQQQ
            qQQQ 7 December 2021 09: 03
            0
            Quote: Alex777
            I will answer the question that worried you:

            Sorry for not knowing the subject, but I did not understand who you mean.
            1. Alex777
              Alex777 7 December 2021 09: 05
              0
              Quote: qqqq
              I was always worried about the question, was he playing against or playing out a scenario for the electorate?

              You wrote this about Putin? And I wrote to you about him.
              1. qQQQ
                qQQQ 7 December 2021 09: 21
                +2
                Quote: Alex777
                What do you have in mind?

                As an example, Minsk2, the agreement itself, I personally, consider it justified and the fact that they did not climb into Ukraine either. But all subsequent actions to maintain the status quo were in favor of the partners. And now the situation has been brought to the point when from the other side they are sincerely surprised that they seem to have handed everything over to them, and why should they be so worried now. In general, as Churchill said, if you choose between shame and war, shame, then in the end we get both war and shame, which in principle is happening now. And I will not be surprised that we will roll back on the Donbas issue, but again, sooner or later we will reach those lines, or rather they will press us, that there will be nowhere to retreat. And as for Putin, we had leaders who lost their sons in the war, fought themselves and, by the way, quite worthily, and so they just understood that the red lines should be far enough from the borders and they also need to be fought for, and if necessary , then to fight otherwise the war will come to our house.
                1. Alex777
                  Alex777 7 December 2021 11: 14
                  0
                  Quote: qqqq
                  Quote: Alex777
                  What do you have in mind?

                  As an example, Minsk2, the agreement itself, I personally, consider it justified and the fact that they did not climb into Ukraine either. But all subsequent actions to maintain the status quo were in favor of the partners. And now the situation has been brought to the point when from the other side they are sincerely surprised that they seem to have handed everything over to them, and why should they be so worried now.

                  You twist. Nobody handed over anything to anyone. The states need bloodshed between the Russians. He was not allowed. Bye. Including the ban on return fire.
                  Quote: qqqq
                  And I will not be surprised that we will roll back on the Donbas issue, but again, sooner or later we will reach those lines, or rather they will press us, that there will be nowhere to retreat.

                  They won't squeeze us anywhere. No matter how hard they tried.
                  Can you give an example of a retreat?
                  And the Decree on the opening of trade is just a confirmation of this.
                  Quote: qqqq
                  And about Putin, then we had leaders

                  I didn't write to you about were, but about what is and what will be.
                  1. qQQQ
                    qQQQ 7 December 2021 11: 53
                    +1
                    Quote: Alex777
                    He was not allowed.

                    They did not allow this temporary phenomenon, if they responded to small shelling much stronger and to more significant objects, and to any progress by clearing it, then it is likely that then it would have been permanent. Impunity breeds permissiveness. And about will, he himself did not fight, and who his father was, this is a completely different song, with the same success will come with whom the grandfather or great-grandfather fought and so on ad infinitum, if time permits us.
                    1. Alex777
                      Alex777 7 December 2021 13: 39
                      0
                      Quote: qqqq
                      They did not allow this temporary phenomenon, if they responded to small shelling much more strongly and to more significant objects, and to any progress by clearing it, then it is likely that then it would have been permanent.

                      Shortsightedly reasoning
                      wink
                      Russian guys from Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk are sitting in the trenches of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. They return home safe and say that they shot, but they did not answer. And their mothers thank Russia for this.
                      You only assume that the APU would not have had an order to fire if they were answered.
                      And I am sure that the response to the LDNR would not have yielded results. The purpose of the attacks from the Ukrainian Armed Forces is to cause a response.
                      Those who give orders for the shelling do not think at all about how many APU personnel will die from retaliation. For them, the more the better.

                      who his father was, it's a completely different song

                      You apparently cannot understand what it is - all your life to watch your father suffer from the wounds received in the war. So don't appreciate it. It's a pity.
                      I will not add anything more to what I have already said. hi
                      1. qQQQ
                        qQQQ 7 December 2021 14: 20
                        +1
                        Quote: Alex777
                        Russian guys from Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk are sitting in the trenches of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. They return home safe and say that they shot, but they did not answer. And their mothers thank Russia for this.

                        The fact that the Russians are sitting - I do not doubt for a moment. And the rest, I'm sorry, is nonsense. They come and tell how they killed Rusnya, etc. and their mothers, unfortunately, only curse us and no one thinks for a moment that they are not being shot at.
                      2. qQQQ
                        qQQQ 7 December 2021 14: 25
                        +1
                        Quote: Alex777
                        And I am sure that the response to the LDNR would not have yielded results.

                        The otvetka was not supposed to be from the LPNR, but exactly the same as Israel is doing. A Caliber with an erased marking and without Russian comments would have arrived at the command post or a cluster of PS militants. And then let them shout that this is produced only in Russia, threaten with sanctions, without comment. Israel still shows a good example, it's a pity that ours don't take it as an example.
    4. Thrifty
      Thrifty 6 December 2021 12: 10
      +17
      Roman, we were put in place too harshly! Putin, his pro-Western anti-Russian policy, the policy of servility to the same NATO bloc is to blame for the fact that NATO is at our side. Which of the promised threats in recent years has the Kremlin implemented? Nothing! Tales about red lines have set everyone sore on edge, the Kremlin does not go further than words-terrible, but useless in reality! Tired of hearing mumble about partners, tired of tales of tough actions! , so they wipe their feet about Russia! As an example, little Israel acts in the region in its own interests, and half of the region is definitely afraid of it! Why Putin doesn't act like that, loot! hundreds of billions of dollars, their selfish interests are closer to some of the people of Russia! Who of the bureaucrats who insulted the people of the country in their vyakaniya, who called you and me a cattle, answered for their words, and how? Next there will be only a war with the partition of Russia, this power even when our lands will be bombed with might and main, nuclear weapons will naturally not be used in defense of the country! So, with such power, Russia will exist exactly until the day the Yankees decide to start a new war in Europe.
      1. Overlock
        Overlock 6 December 2021 15: 41
        -2
        I agree with many things, except ...
        Quote: Thrifty
        Then there will be only a war with the partition of Russia

        What for? After all
        Quote: AKuzenka
        They will hand over the country for promises! immunity.
    5. jovanni
      jovanni 7 December 2021 18: 09
      0
      Quote: Bez 310
      Quite right - it's late ...

      Yeah. The kidneys fell off a long time ago. 30 years ago. And with them, everyone except Belarus ...
  2. Carat
    Carat 6 December 2021 11: 08
    +4
    In any case, Ukraine tomorrow is a springboard for trade between Russia and NATO. Yes, we can say that NATO operates in a moratorium on the admission of Ukraine, but at the same time it saves its face.


    Ukraine is a bargaining chip for the United States.
    About 3-4 years ago, newspapers wrote that the United States would give Ukraine to Russia in exchange for Russia's withdrawal from Syria.
    1. prior
      prior 6 December 2021 11: 31
      -13
      Ukraine, Ukraine ...
      Shouldn't we hold a referendum in Venezuela, following the example of Krymsky, with the subsequent joining of Russia ?!
      It would be something to talk to Biden about ...
      1. Carat
        Carat 6 December 2021 11: 32
        +1
        Option. And you don't really need to feed them, but oil for 200 years.
      2. Sad235
        Sad235 6 December 2021 20: 03
        -4
        And how will you feed.? One side there is worth the budget of the regional center in Russia
    2. Andrei Nikolaevich
      Andrei Nikolaevich 6 December 2021 12: 10
      -4
      Why do we need Ukraine? Moreover, in its current state .. At least there is oil in Syria. In Ukraine, the collapse and half of the population are beggars.
      1. Carat
        Carat 6 December 2021 12: 13
        +1
        And Ukraine is very rich in natural resources for a second. 90 percent of the aluminum in the USSR is the Ukrainian SSR.
        And we already have a lot of oil in the Tyumen region.
        1. Avior
          Avior 6 December 2021 14: 24
          +9
          Aluminum is not mined in the ground; it is produced.
          To produce a ton of aluminum, two tons of alumina, half a ton of electrodes and about 20 kWh of electricity are needed, besides everything else. The aluminum industry is one of the most energy-intensive industries, therefore the most important condition for its development is the availability of powerful sources of electricity.
          It is profitable to produce aluminum not at the place where alumina is mined, but at the place where electricity is produced.
          1. Carat
            Carat 6 December 2021 14: 38
            +1
            Quote: Avior
            It takes two tons of alumina to produce a ton of aluminum.


            Alumina containing aluminum oxide. And there is not much of it.
            And you also need: boxides, nephelines, alunines, kaolinite and so on.
            Alumina in the country? Where do you plant potatoes? Why don't you mine aluminum?
            1. minus
              minus 6 December 2021 15: 05
              0
              Normal people plant potatoes not in alumina, but in black soil! wassat
            2. Undecim
              Undecim 6 December 2021 18: 24
              +7
              Alumina containing aluminum oxide. And there is not much of it.
              And you also need: boxides, nephelines, alunines, kaolinite and so on.
              Alumina in the country? Where do you plant potatoes? Why don't you mine aluminum?

              Alumina is a product of processing aluminum-containing ores for further aluminum production. Only bauxite is used for this in the world. Alumina from bauxite is obtained by the Bayer or Bayer sintering method.
          2. Carat
            Carat 6 December 2021 14: 56
            -2
            Doesn't it seem strange to you that the USSR is full of alumina, but in 1941 the Germans occupied Ukraine and the USSR lost 90 percent of aluminum production?
            1. minus
              minus 6 December 2021 15: 19
              +8
              It does not seem strange at all. The Zaporozhye aluminum plant was the main aluminum producer in the USSR at that time. And it was built almost simultaneously with the Dnieper Hydroelectric Power Station, too, not luchily. With the commissioning of the Siberian aluminum enterprises, its importance decreased. And you will know that most of the raw materials for it were IMPORTED from other countries!
      2. Thrifty
        Thrifty 6 December 2021 12: 21
        +4
        Andrei Nikolaevich, in general, these are Russian lands, torn away from Russia by the betrayal of the scum that destroyed the USSR. The Voronezh region is occupied by NATO, so why should we sing the Voronezh region? Too easily you scatter what has been gathered together for centuries - the lands of Russia.
        1. Andrei Nikolaevich
          Andrei Nikolaevich 6 December 2021 12: 53
          -3
          Thrifty, I did not scatter these lands. And to collect them, in their current state, I consider to be a utipia. But I also think that the existence of Ukraine near us is dangerous. In my opinion, it is better to help Ukraine fall apart into several parts. Distribute these parts - to those who wish - Hungary, Poland. Let the remaining territories live independently and only at their own expense. If they are smart enough ...
          1. Thrifty
            Thrifty 6 December 2021 14: 02
            +3
            Andrei Nikolayevich, our own, Russian LANDS we MUST return to Russia, and the population .... their choice is the European Union, let them go there. Uk-Roina must disappear in order for Russia to become truly strong again, and united by its lands.
            1. Andrei Nikolaevich
              Andrei Nikolaevich 6 December 2021 14: 41
              +1
              I agree. Should disappear. Even the name itself.
        2. Overlock
          Overlock 6 December 2021 15: 45
          +2
          Quote: Thrifty
          in general, these are Russian lands, torn away from Russia by the betrayal of the scum that destroyed the USSR.

          Don't be a phantom, especially since modern Ukraine has been growing in land since the time of Catherine. Likewise, you can make territorial claims against Kazakhstan for the given Russian lands. You need to live for today.
          Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich
          And to collect them, in their current state, I consider to be a utipia.

          I completely agree. We have a lot of our abandoned lands.
      3. Akuzenka
        Akuzenka 6 December 2021 12: 50
        +5
        Ukraine-collapse and half of the population-beggars.
        And that there are fewer "hicks" in the Russian Federation? As if not more! You just have to look with your eyes and not in the capitals.
        1. Overlock
          Overlock 6 December 2021 15: 46
          +2
          Quote: AKuzenka
          You just have to look with your eyes and not in the capitals.

          So it's cool - we don't see the log in our own eye
      4. Sad235
        Sad235 6 December 2021 20: 04
        -2
        There is practically no oil in Syria, but the Americans have it
  3. Timon2155
    Timon2155 6 December 2021 11: 11
    +4
    It could be written in short, it is necessary to strengthen the power of the army and navy. Then they will begin to count, and our opinion will be taken into account. We do not need respect for NATO, but we need to be afraid - for the good of the cause and negotiations.
    1. Victor Leningradets
      Victor Leningradets 6 December 2021 11: 41
      0
      Few!
      A hard apertcut is required. A public, NATO humiliating military operation to completely eliminate the influence of the West in one of the countries in the post-Soviet space (including the physical destruction of iconic figures). I suggest - Pashinyan. I think this will impress Masha's partners.
      1. Avior
        Avior 6 December 2021 12: 18
        +7
        Problems can be with a military operation. Armenia and Russia have no common borders.
        1. Victor Leningradets
          Victor Leningradets 6 December 2021 12: 36
          -2
          So it must be laid!
          That's what I'm talking about. On the way to Armenia lies Georgia (NATO candidate) and Azerbaijan (Turkey candidate). Now, if this trinity (which NATO cannot cover positionally) is returned "into the fold", then Masha's partners will have persistent impotence (political). Then it will be possible to conduct substantive negotiations with the president of the great ukrov without intermediaries.
          1. Avior
            Avior 6 December 2021 12: 41
            +8
            Now, if this trinity (which NATO cannot cover positionally)

            But NATO has a common border.
            1. Victor Leningradets
              Victor Leningradets 6 December 2021 12: 52
              -3
              And what can you throw through it? And how to ensure air supremacy? I generally keep quiet about special operations.
              It is not the legal boundary that matters, but the deployment options and logistics.
              In the end, it is possible to come to an agreement with Turkey. As Milady and Richelieu: "give this to me and I will give this to you ..." (Not desirable, of course).
              1. Avior
                Avior 6 December 2021 14: 10
                +4
                you can negotiate with Turkey

                Are you going to agree with Turkey on a war against Azerbaijan? And who were going to give in return?
                1. Victor Leningradets
                  Victor Leningradets 6 December 2021 15: 08
                  -6
                  I'm not going to give away republics. But cards can lie in any way. So after taking Azerbaijan, it can be returned in exchange for tightly closing the Turkish border for NATO.
                  1. Overlock
                    Overlock 6 December 2021 15: 48
                    +5
                    Quote: Victor Leningradets
                    So taking Azerbaijan

                    When do you start?
          2. Civil
            Civil 6 December 2021 14: 11
            -1
            That's what I'm talking about. On the way to Armenia lies Georgia (NATO candidate) and Azerbaijan (Turkey candidate)

            It good laughing laughing
          3. Sad235
            Sad235 6 December 2021 20: 06
            +1
            You will go to war with a machine gun in the forefront.? Or send your son.?
          4. border
            border 8 December 2021 14: 39
            +1
            Read what kind of government these areas were from St. Petersburg in the 19-20 centuries, are you ready to fight in the forefront with your sons and other relatives for the actual annexation of these lands, and then stand as garrisons protecting themselves ??
    2. Overlock
      Overlock 6 December 2021 15: 48
      +4
      Quote: Timon2155
      It could be written in short, it is necessary to strengthen the power of the army and navy.

      And this requires an economy, not a surrogate. How long did it take to build the destroyer / BOD in the USSR and how long does it take to build the frigate now?
    3. Alf
      Alf 6 December 2021 20: 06
      +2
      Quote: Timon2155
      it is necessary to strengthen the power of the army and navy.

      The power of the army and navy is based on the power of science and economics. As with us and with the first and the second ???
      1. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 6 December 2021 20: 21
        +2
        Oh my friend, there are a lot of uryaklov here who believe that the military-industrial complex can flourish in isolation from science and industry. But in fact, there is a chewing of Soviet developments, with some modernization in terms of electronics. hi
        1. Alf
          Alf 6 December 2021 20: 32
          +1
          Quote: Ingvar 72
          The military-industrial complex can flourish in isolation from science and industry.

          Taki Yes! Moreover, even apart from the actions of those in power.
          Quote: Ingvar 72
          with some electronics upgrades.

          And most of it was made in China.
  4. Dimy4
    Dimy4 6 December 2021 11: 13
    +5
    Good deed, only it was a little late. For 20 years.

    Yes, gentlemen from the Baltic states think faster in jokes.
  5. SaLaR
    SaLaR 6 December 2021 11: 14
    +16
    Everything is clearly and clearly painted ................. They twisted the opinion of Russia in one place ....... Moreover, all the eggs of the Russian powers that be lie in their baskets ... ... It is worth slightly squeezing and no Zircon or Vanguard will help ......... request
  6. Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 6 December 2021 11: 22
    +1
    Russian President Vladimir Putin has proposed starting negotiations with NATO regarding the fact that the alliance will not move east.
    Yes, in 2008 NATO drove itself into a corner, if not into a trap, when an agreement was signed in Bucharest, which clearly stated: Georgia and Ukraine will join NATO. Since then, no one has withdrawn their signatures, they have not refused their promises. True, the document does not say at all when this will happen.
  7. The comment was deleted.
  8. Andrey Moskvin
    Andrey Moskvin 6 December 2021 11: 27
    0
    Do they think in Ukraine that after admission to NATO there will be no need to work?
    I remember that the Selyuk on the Censor dreamed of, now we will receive the tranche, we will live. One licked his lips on disks for the car, the other on a new phone. lol
    1. Andrei Nikolaevich
      Andrei Nikolaevich 6 December 2021 12: 12
      -8
      It is serlyuchye - delyuchye. It is conceived, nurtured in the pig. Pigs in one word.
      1. Overlock
        Overlock 6 December 2021 15: 50
        0
        Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich
        It is serlyuchye - delyuchye. It is conceived, nurtured in the pig. Pigs in one word.

        Article 282 of the Criminal Code. The incitement of hatred or enmity, as well as humiliation of human dignity
        1. Andrei Nikolaevich
          Andrei Nikolaevich 6 December 2021 16: 04
          -2
          Is it especially close to you?
          1. Overlock
            Overlock 6 December 2021 16: 09
            0
            Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich
            Is it especially close to you?

            Human dignity and decency outside the nationality. Can apply your words to yourself. As Putin said: whoever calls his name is called that.
            By the way, what do the VO rules say about this?
            1. Andrei Nikolaevich
              Andrei Nikolaevich 6 December 2021 16: 13
              -2
              Personally, I have not offended you. Don't pretend to be offended. And read the article carefully.
              1. Overlock
                Overlock 6 December 2021 16: 50
                +4
                Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich
                Personally, I have not offended you.

                Not enough! But the culture of behavior, especially the public one, should be
  9. carstorm 11
    carstorm 11 6 December 2021 11: 30
    -2
    What was there 20 years ago? What power?)))
    1. Silver bullet
      Silver bullet 6 December 2021 12: 01
      -1
      Therefore, many today assess Ukraine's chances of becoming a full-fledged member of NATO as zero. It is too expensive - Ukraine, as a member of any bloc. 
      To be more precise, Ukraine is more of a circle of members of any bloc (historically, it happened, except for the Soviet era they hated). The more expensive and larger the gifts, the more the lady's appetite and belligerence. And now a woman of reduced social responsibility also offers her European suitors to fight for her.
      1. Overlock
        Overlock 6 December 2021 15: 51
        -2
        Quote: Silver bullet
        Therefore, many today assess Ukraine's chances of becoming a full-fledged member of NATO as zero.

        But they can do without NATO. Let's remember Taiwan - not NATO, but with America it is closely-closely
  10. Fisherman
    Fisherman 6 December 2021 11: 31
    +3
    1) Military budget Ruins - about 10 yards of greenery. They will have enough for NATO.
    2) The message of Putin's appeal is not to sign such agreements (he himself does not believe in them), but "I proposed, but you refused." It's like "buy a brick!" A reason for an aggressive response to any major provocation. Summing up the results, the sacramental "I offered you, but now this is our land and our people, and no one asks you."
    1. Victor Leningradets
      Victor Leningradets 6 December 2021 11: 45
      0
      Generally correct, only this constant desire to please "international public opinion" oppresses. There is no need to look for a reason - to act proactively. and a pretext can be created - for internal use, for foreign use - nothing will help.
      1. Fisherman
        Fisherman 6 December 2021 12: 05
        +1
        There is nothing to be done, we must continue to play with the UN rules, otherwise there will be lawlessness, but we do not need it.
        1. Victor Leningradets
          Victor Leningradets 6 December 2021 12: 46
          -3
          The United States is exactly what they are doing. They need a cold shower in the style of "what for us?"
          1. Fisherman
            Fisherman 6 December 2021 14: 13
            -1
            necessary .... certainly ... if there is a real idea - to Putin ... here it is not necessary to inform the enemy spies ..
  11. Thorvlobnor IV
    Thorvlobnor IV 6 December 2021 11: 42
    +12
    There are also countries with which Russia has significantly improved its relations today. In addition to Hungary, this includes the Czech Republic and Italy


    The author is aware that the Czech Republic has been officially a "unfriendly state" for some time now, and that in Italy it is not Putin's friends at all that are now in power?
    1. Astronomy
      Astronomy 7 December 2021 00: 01
      0
      There are also countries with which Russia has significantly improved its relations today.

      This is the news of the day! However, the author did not present the list.
      The fact is that the EU did not lift its sanctions and even strengthened, but the author has countries that decide something and relations have improved.
      But what's funny is that Roman Poland is the country that is against Ukraine and has tense relations with it ...
      Apparently he does not know that the Poles are the first to discuss the topic of NATO and Ukraine in it and strive.
      only read news like this
      Poland will strive to ensure that Ukraine remains a leading topic in NATO, the EU and even the OSCE. This was stated by the head of the National Security Bureau of the republic, Pavel Solokh, following a meeting with the secretary of the National Security and Defense Council (NSDC) of Ukraine, Oleksiy Danilov.

      And most importantly, the Poles are not for the Russian Federation, and they will not vote against as a temporary ally in voting for Ukraine.
      Hungary sticks sticks exclusively for this damned "movable" law. But when it is necessary he forgets quickly.
      But the author has Poland, Italy ... even Turkey ... and "there is also a list of countries with which we have improved relations."
      apparently it's like the Czech Republic ..
      Relations have improved before expulsion ... Everyone adores each other ..
  12. Victor Tsenin
    Victor Tsenin 6 December 2021 11: 44
    +4
    > Moreover, and with legal guarantees that the gentlemen from the alliance will again not give up their words.

    According to the experience of history, any agreement with the West is virtually null and void.

    > Alas, but the policy of our time is as follows: who is stronger, he acts as it is more convenient and profitable for him.

    I think, Roman, this has always been the case, it's just that now this situation is clear as daylight and is in no way hidden.
    Who is stronger is right, so to speak.
  13. donavi49
    donavi49 6 December 2021 11: 55
    +14
    The Czech Republic has long been unfriendly. Forgot the scandal with the nuclear power plant and warehouses, the expulsion of diplomats, etc.?
    Italy is now more hostile neutrality than friendship.
    Hungary - in words, yes. But it is quite possible to push the Americans with the necessary solution. They will vote as cute.

    At the expense, it's generally funny. Ukraine already spends more than Poland in%. UAH 267 billion in 21 is almost $ 10 billion + a bunch of extra expenses outside the budget, the same interstate contracts for the supply of weapons on credit. Therefore, there are no problems with financing at all. Even if everyone is on schedule with light, without heating and a little, but they will allocate enough for purchases for the army.
    1. paul3390
      paul3390 6 December 2021 12: 10
      -1
      they will allocate enough for purchases for the army

      As the post-Soviet 30-year experience shows, the main thing is not how much will be allocated, but how much will go into business .. At least half will be resisted. And they steal from us as not to themselves, but only in Tsegabonia .. So - the amount can be safely halved. And then - it will be optimistic.
    2. teron
      teron 8 December 2021 13: 58
      +1
      That's for sure. Take even Africa - hunger, it is bad with drinking water, but there will always be money for the next war. And Ukraine is far from Africa.
  14. rocket757
    rocket757 6 December 2021 12: 01
    +1
    Russian President Vladimir Putin has proposed starting negotiations with NATO regarding the fact that the alliance will not move east. And not trusting oral promises, so as not to repeat the mistakes of one too gullible predecessor, formalize all this in a written agreement. Moreover, with legal guarantees that the gentlemen from the alliance will again not give up their words.
    So they are well-known masters of their words, and the documents signed, binding, are nothing when you do not have the power to force you to comply with obligations !!!
    Hence the conclusion ... it is necessary to become stronger, in spite of everything and in spite of .... all enemies!
    Dreams, dreams, you can also wish the moon from the sky ...
  15. Avior
    Avior 6 December 2021 12: 08
    +10
    And on the other side is Georgia, which also really wants to join NATO, but it also has territorial disputes with Russia.

    The novel burned up the office :)) South Ossetia and Abkhazia are independent states.
    Ukraine's GDP is $ 181 billion. 2% is $ 3,62 billion.

    Who will believe that such an amount is within the reach of Ukraine?

    The military budget of Ukraine for 2021 is at least 267,25 billion hryvnia. Which is about $ 10 billion.
    https://korrespondent.net/business/economics/4292118-hosbuidzhet-2021-na-oboronu-vydeliat-6-vvp
    In Ukraine, it is officially accepted that military spending should be at least 5 percent of GDP.
    In principle, there is a precedent for an agreement similar to what the author writes about - this agreement on Cuba. The USSR removed the missiles and troops, and the United States pledged not to touch Cuba. It has been running for over 50 years.
    But in Ukraine, such an agreement will not work - the problem of Crimea is not solvable.
    for the adoption of the same Ukraine, the votes of ALL 26 NATO members are needed

    It is difficult to say for sure who, apart from the Hungarians, is against. But on the whole, the point is that the overwhelming majority of NATO members will not object.
    Somehow imperceptibly recently, a significant event took place - for the first time the question arose about the possibility of using NATO troops in Ukraine, and although no such decision was made, the call is serious and suggests that the situation is growing.: ((
  16. tralflot1832
    tralflot1832 6 December 2021 12: 09
    -6
    And how many debts Ukraine has accumulated since 2014, we need it, only a part.
    1. Victor Leningradets
      Victor Leningradets 6 December 2021 12: 48
      +1
      So let them get it from the "Government in Exile".
  17. malyvalv
    malyvalv 6 December 2021 12: 10
    +1
    In addition to Hungary, this includes the Czech Republic and Italy.


    Yeah. Relations with the Czechs improved so much that they were registered in enemy countries along with the United States. Only the Czechs and the United States. The rest remained "partners".
  18. Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 6 December 2021 12: 21
    +18
    First, when they go to "negotiate" with a stronger adversary, they usually offer him something REPLACE. What can we offer in return for NATO? Some guarantees that we will not start a nuclear war in Europe? And they already understand that we will not start it - this is our nightmare from the point of view of the collapse of our export-import economy, demographics, this is the worst nightmare of our elites, who in Europe have little houses-grapes-real estate and children learn. No matter how much we rattle the toilet lid, in the West they can count very well and see the dynamics. They do not see the modern Russian Federation as an aggressive and ambitious adversary - no one will bite our bluff. Right now, they seem to be frightened by the "prospect of an attack by the Russian Federation on Ukraine" - but, let’s say, if such a thing happened, we would receive a sanction response, unlike the one that is now. What we trade with the EU - we will no longer trade that. Those NATO forces that are now in the EU will receive a card blanche for strengthening, and the EU’s loose unity on this issue will be restored. Ultimately, this will hit us more than potential acquisitions.
    The fact is that we have NOTHING to offer NATO. Not that they need Ukraine, rather they are not interested in bargaining with us, they are not afraid of us, and we have nothing to cover symmetrically on this issue in the case of "NO".

    Secondly, on the internal front, the GDP can play with paperbacks, rewrite something there, offer some cunning combinations through Ms. Tereshkova or Mr. Volodin - here all the aces in the deck are their own. And in the west - someone else's deck. And most of the players at the table are real competitors and not some kind of "home opposition". Kakbe's inability to come to an agreement on the internal front hints at the fact that it will not be especially on the external one.

    Thirdly, we have really profited our "zone of influence", during these 20 years we have profited in general. Something started earlier, the roots of the problem, yes, probably. But in the fat years of oil, we did not want to build a strong and well-thought-out architecture to replace the dull CIS, and this is the result. So, in my opinion, we ourselves have merged our right, and now we need this right to EARN again. Not some murky and rosy promises, but REAL work on the EAEU, for example. The process of restoring positions is a long and delicate matter. And now we vote more than we do on this front, alas.
    1. Aleksandr21
      Aleksandr21 6 December 2021 15: 56
      +3
      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      First, when they go to "negotiate" with a stronger adversary, they usually offer him something REPLACE. What can we offer in return for NATO?


      In fact, there are such trump cards ... and this is primarily the supply of energy resources to Europe, if we stop supplies, then Germany as an industrial / economic superpower - everything, i.e. its industry is tied to our gas, and the economy is to export goods to foreign markets, and even if by a miracle they can get liquefied gas from the United States, the cost of producing goods will be several times higher, because they will lose the US / PRC markets. And there the entire EU will start to fall down the chain .... and if we also take into account the world cost of energy resources, after the blockade of the Russian Federation, then prices will simply fly into space, which will definitely finish off the world economy, which Kovid did not finish off.

      Another thing is that our elite is simply not ready for such radical steps and this is our weakness, not that we cannot do anything, but that we really do not want to bring it to the brink ...
      1. Overlock
        Overlock 6 December 2021 16: 07
        0
        Quote: Aleksandr21
        In fact, there are such trump cards ... and this is primarily the supply of energy resources to Europe, if we stop supplies, then Germany as an industrial / economic superpower - everything, i.e. its industry is tied to our gas, and the economy is to export goods to foreign markets, and even if by a miracle they can get liquefied gas from the United States, the cost of producing goods will be several times higher, because they will lose the US / PRC markets. And there the whole EU will start to fall down the chain ...

        You forgot about penalties and fines for non-fulfillment of concluded contracts. You have to pay and that's a lot!
        1. Aleksandr21
          Aleksandr21 6 December 2021 16: 17
          +1
          Quote: Overlock
          You forgot about penalties and fines for non-fulfillment of concluded contracts. You have to pay and that's a lot!


          Yes, you have to pay, but taking into account the chaos that will begin in the global economy ... when the EU does not have energy resources and the United States has gold gasoline (in the literal sense), then everything will collapse ... of course, this is a very radical step, but if the question concerns our existence and security, then it is worth considering all the options, and if you endlessly retreat, then tomorrow Russia may not exist.
          1. Overlock
            Overlock 6 December 2021 16: 48
            0
            Quote: Aleksandr21
            Yes, you have to pay, but taking into account the chaos that will begin in the global economy ..

            Do you think that in this chaos our economy will rise? For me, it will collapse
            Quote: Aleksandr21
            then tomorrow Russia may not exist.

            Russia was, is and will be.
            1. Aleksandr21
              Aleksandr21 6 December 2021 17: 12
              +3
              Quote: Overlock
              Do you think that in this chaos our economy will rise? For me, it will collapse


              I believe that in an extreme case, losses can be recouped in the Asian market, especially if the price of gas in Europe is 3-5 thousand dollars per thousand cubic meters ... then in the rest of the world, the price tag will be very high.

              But this is so, thoughts out loud ... I'm not saying that right now, let's turn off Europe from gas, but I'm just considering options and the trump cards that we have.

              Russia was, is and will be.


              Don't you think that Russia, since the times of the Russian Empire and the USSR, has seriously decreased so much? I am sure that NATO has excellent plans to strike at the European part of Russia and the largest centers (industry, military, and decision-making centers), but in the rest of Russia ... split into 10-15 states in which to put - " correct "regimes and conclude lucrative contracts. since Russia may continue to exist, but within completely different borders, how do you like this prospect? And to prevent this from happening, you need to defend your interests and sometimes very harshly so that the enemy stops and changes his plans.
              1. Overlock
                Overlock 6 December 2021 17: 18
                0
                Quote: Aleksandr21
                as a last resort, losses can be recaptured in the Asian market,

                Hope for Asia, but don't do it yourself.
                How do you get there? The same China is already twisting its hands, but under the conditions of sanctions, can one doubt it.
                Quote: Aleksandr21
                Don't you think that Russia, since the times of the Russian Empire and the USSR, has seriously decreased so much?

                Thanks to whom and what? How many territories fell off after the revolutions?
                Quote: Aleksandr21
                I am sure that NATO has excellent plans in striking the European part of Russia and the largest centers (industry, military, and decision-making centers)

                What for? It's easier to buy, which they are doing now. Foreign capital is almost everywhere. Will they bomb it? Your money?
                It is much easier to disperse the arms race, which is being done, and take advantage of the situation amid falling living standards within the country.
                1. Aleksandr21
                  Aleksandr21 6 December 2021 17: 30
                  +2
                  Quote: Overlock
                  What for? It's easier to buy, which they are doing now.


                  Why did NATO make a wave of enlargement (after the collapse of the USSR)? And he is going to make a new wave (Ukraine, Georgia ... Moldova), and then you think it will stop? Nope, then there will be Belarus and the fragmentation of Russia ...

                  By the way, the construction of NATO military facilities began immediately after the collapse of the USSR, at a time when Russia had a "correct" government and GDP was the best friend, and after all, everything was done the way the West wanted, but the politicians said one thing, and the military was completely different .. ..those. The West does not care what regime in Russia and what policy it pursues, its goal is the absorption of new territories, their assimilation (culturally, ideologically, politically) and the continuation of expansion.

                  Quote: Overlock
                  Hope for Asia, but don't do it yourself.


                  You can't argue about how the gas will get there ... the pipelines go not only to Europe :) but also to China, and not only there ... there are plans for a Pakistani flow, a gas pipeline to India, etc.

                  Quote: Overlock
                  Thanks to whom and what? How many territories fell off after the revolutions?


                  Different reasons, but the same result ... we lost territories and people.
                  1. Overlock
                    Overlock 6 December 2021 17: 36
                    +1
                    Quote: Aleksandr21
                    Why did NATO make a wave of enlargement (after the collapse of the USSR)? And he is going to make a new wave (Ukraine, Georgia ... Moldova), and then you think it will stop?

                    Nature abhors a vacuum, we left, they came. Russia will not be split up by any NATO. It will be crushed by the folly of the leadership. Do you think that new fines for uncleared snow on garden plots and for glazing balconies add patriotism?
                    Quote: Aleksandr21
                    The West does not care what regime in Russia and what policy it pursues, its goal is the absorption of new territories, their assimilation (culturally, ideologically, politically) and the continuation of expansion.

                    Naturally! The West needs a market for cheap raw materials, labor, etc. By the way, have you read that the new German government is ready to grant visa-free travel to young people (under 25) from Russia?
                    Quote: Aleksandr21
                    Different reasons, but the same result ... we lost territories and people.

                    Answered partially a little higher. In addition: will the war increase the population?
      2. Knell wardenheart
        Knell wardenheart 6 December 2021 18: 52
        +4
        A possible option, quite, but I think that in this case Uncle Sam would be only happy with this development of events - the Americans will immediately offer the EU a "new Marshall plan" - LNG supplies on preferential terms, it is possible that they will even subsidize these supplies from the budget The United States, the contractor will be at least 5 years old, and most likely it will be more interrelated (here you can dream up great, but most likely it will be an economic and political package that will be beneficial for the penetration of American and Canadian commodity businesses into the EU markets, the convergence of political positions on the BV and Russia, sanctions against the Russian Federation and the same Iran.
        The Americans will say, "Well, we told you that you can't deal with the Russians," and with a pictorial gesture they will again "save" Europe. The Europeans themselves will be forced to take this step in the small-medium term, in the future they will compensate for the flow of energy resources at the expense of the southern and southeastern directions. In the same Nigeria there are huge reserves of oil and gas, when I read about the project on the "southern pipe", now, this project may well return - again, the Germans are masters of vpending their pipes and construction services as payment for future resources, with Africans who always have no money, this will give a ride with a bang. This is undoubtedly a problem region, but a flow of money of this magnitude can solve many problems. The EU has been systematically preparing for a similar scenario for a long time - all of their "environmental programs" are largely a reduction in costs or work for such a perspective.
        Our harsh actions here will not bury Europe and will not force it to make some kind of critical concessions - the EU has two powerful shoulders - the United States and the Arab monarchies, whose well-fed and calm life is also not tied to the EU and the United States. We, in turn, could hardly survive all this ..
        1. Aleksandr21
          Aleksandr21 6 December 2021 22: 02
          +1
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          but I think that in this case, Uncle Sam would be only happy with such a development of events - the Americans will immediately offer the EU a "new Marshall plan" - LNG supplies on preferential terms


          This is fantastic, the United States will not be able to supply the volumes of gas that we supply (through all flows to Europe), even now, during the crisis, they send all LNG to Asia, and there is simply not enough gas for Europe .... + the crisis in energy prices is already is, and he touched the United States, they had to print oil reserves + put pressure on OPEC to curb the rise in prices, and in this scenario colossal volumes of gas will be required ... so a dubious scenario) let them build from Nigeria, only how many years will they spend? So, not everything is so simple ... another thing is that ours themselves will not take such a step (limiting the supply of energy resources to Europe), but if the consequences for the world go, there will be colossal (IMHO, of course).
      3. Arctic
        Arctic 6 December 2021 20: 49
        +1
        "In fact, there are such trump cards ..."

        Then, for sure, NATO members will consider starting a war in order to take resources under their control. Perhaps by the forces of "refugees" for the promise of a sweet life. That in Europe, that in America after the Second World War a generation of popular politicians grew up without a sense of proportion and responsibility for their actions, and if we consider that they consider Russia a weak country or a "gas station country" that does not have the right to have an opinion, then they can try solve the problem by force
    2. Astronomy
      Astronomy 7 December 2021 00: 07
      +1
      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      But in the fat years of oil, we did not want to build a strong and well-thought-out architecture to replace the dull CIS, and this is the result. So, in my opinion, we ourselves have merged our right, and now we need this right to EARN again. Not some murky and rosy promises, but REAL work on the EAEU, for example. The process of restoring positions is a long and delicate matter. And now we vote more than we do on this front, alas.

      just easy money clouded the brain.
      We tried to buy everything. Zone, technology, government and opposition ..
      Instead of "making money" through soft power - to form a stable influence on the bottom and financially on the top .. We preferred to buy and dictate. To drag and not to let go.
      The old Russian business principle. But it doesn't work. Moreover, it causes a protest.
      All layers. And the trade wars started ..
      Well, the ending when the guns started talking ..
      The strength of an elephant in a china shop .... Moreover, his shop, and no one bothered him .. But he ruined everything himself with his usual strong movement.
      1. Knell wardenheart
        Knell wardenheart 7 December 2021 01: 09
        +3
        Unfortunately you are right. It just does not diminish the dissonance, when the persons responsible for all this either bring everything to the west, or do not see this long overripe problem.
        In my opinion, over the past twenty years, we have literally "buried" not just our imperial idea, but in general, a significant part of the framework that allows us to be ambitious. Not only did we lose a wagon of time and money that we could spend on modernizing and strengthening our positions, we also contributed to the reverse processes, encouraging to some extent the conservation of not the best personalities in a number of neighboring states. In the question "what is this? Stupid policy? Worthless goal-setting? Sabotage? Formalistic sabotage? A kleptocracy that has lost all boundaries?" I really do not find a definite answer, maybe just all at once, maybe a little bit of everything. But all this, even 7-8 years ago, was NOT SO UNIFORMALLY - now the final being, this is the apogee of our activities in the inner circle, our strategy for building our own security in the border area, etc. In fact, this is a fiasco because we have lost a common language with the western border states, practically lost it with the independent states in the Caucasus. A significant part of Central Asia at the moment, I would say, shows us all the spectra of cool neutrality - specifically the part that is not associated with us with migrant flows.
        Now we have come to a situation in which, in general, even our money and energy resources do not decide so much as before.
        How much I don’t think about how we could get out of all this, about the future of our country in the 21st century - the event horizon is closed by very dense clouds. There is clearly nothing good there .. it is even sadder to realize how many opportunities we have missed since 91.
  19. nikvic46
    nikvic46 6 December 2021 12: 37
    0
    In times of crisis, it is necessary to help NATO members to veto the entry of Georgia and Ukraine into this military alliance. A little help can confuse all the cards of the leading countries.
    1. Victor Leningradets
      Victor Leningradets 6 December 2021 12: 56
      -1
      It's useless.
      All NATO members are puppets of the US.
      1. nikvic46
        nikvic46 6 December 2021 15: 16
        +1
        Victor: To pull out a tooth, you must first loosen it. After all, not all members of this alliance exist successfully. Someone who needs help to establish imports into our country. All these poor countries must understand that we are not threatening them, and if we leave it that way, when mutual reproaches and threats exist, then the war is not far off.
        1. Victor Leningradets
          Victor Leningradets 6 December 2021 16: 36
          -4
          not far before the war

          - the only true statement.
          Everything else is naivety. And imports to our country and gas are written, all this was, and the decision is made by Washington.
          And you will have to get off European imports anyway.
          1. nikvic46
            nikvic46 6 December 2021 18: 20
            +1
            Victor. You can get off the import for a self-sufficient country. Big request. Don't answer me. Health to you.
  20. V1er
    V1er 6 December 2021 12: 45
    +5
    Even if we imagine that Ukraine recognizes Crimea and Donbass and that the war will "officially" end, this will mean absolutely nothing. Baltic example. They will create bases, pump up the army and raise the Nazis. The circus with "Russia has placed an army on the border and is attacking, we are asking for help and are moving the army to the border" will not stop, it will continue. Only now with Abrams, F-35 and other things, that they will not regret going to the outskirts. The country was bought on credit; now it is just a colony with an English governor.
    1. Victor Leningradets
      Victor Leningradets 6 December 2021 12: 55
      -6
      Conclusion: only complete annexation by Russia can save millions of Ukrainian lives.
      1. Overlock
        Overlock 6 December 2021 15: 55
        +3
        Quote: Victor Leningradets
        only complete annexation by Russia can save millions of Ukrainian lives.

        At the cost of the lives of millions more? You get carried away
  21. Kushka
    Kushka 6 December 2021 13: 16
    +4
    He began to write the novel in a hurry. From this, his materials became more similar.
    on reports "online", that is, there is no system and there are errors (for the same% of GDP
    Ukraine for defense).
    Again - where is Minsk, and where is NATO - these are not even parallel processes,
    different prehistory, different format, different tasks.
    And about Putin's words about paper and signatures ...
    Google - you will find more than one "public" statement
    Putin (in a tight ring of the press or from a high rostrum)
    on Russia's strict observance of the Treaty on
    friendship with Ukraine and the sovereignty of the territory. Moreover,
    literally before .... And what Putin said, again
    in public after? - "We signed it with ANOTHER
    Ukraine "
    Well, why are they fiercely with Lavrov now?
    Everything turned out strictly according to Putin - Minsk signed with ANOTHER Ukraine.
    Ukraine Poroshenko.
    And Zelensky is no sideways to Minsk. Well, nothing at all - he and his team
    (which is now both the Cabinet of Ministers and the Verkhovna Rada) at that time on TV (in Russian,
    by the way, too) in different outfits galloped. Well, where is Zelensky, and where is Minsk?
    1. Andrey Moskvin
      Andrey Moskvin 6 December 2021 14: 13
      +1
      And you are attentive! hi
      1. Kushka
        Kushka 6 December 2021 14: 36
        +5
        I am not good at it. If I could, I would pump it out and put it out,
        I remember these videos very well, and one, and the second,
        so that the author looked at both.
        And compare - Trump signed with the Taliban
        conclusion, and Biden fulfilled (how, that's another matter).
        But this is the USA, there is the Senate, there is the Congress. Well, the President,
        who, although he can personally declare war
        (with 24 hours notice from Congress), but if
        the intern will pinch the ass, fall into the clutches of the special prosecutor.
        And then .... Ukraine - 30 years (30, Karl!) 450 grandfathers were in VR!
        And then ONCE, and the age of today's deputies (hairdressers,
        photographers, bloggers, etc.) fell TWO times! And of them
        (for a minute) the Presidential Administration is being formed,
        and the Government, i.e. all ministries and foreign affairs
        including.
        Guys !, When Minsk signed up (seven years ago!),
        they were still schoolchildren (well, or students)!
        (well, what do schoolchildren and students constantly have on their minds,
        we still remember, probably) What Minsk?
        Who signed? Who signed with? What is it about?:
        Moreover, there will be no one in Europe tomorrow,
        who somewhere, somehow participated, promised something to both
        to the parties.
  22. p0pulivox
    p0pulivox 6 December 2021 13: 43
    +4
    The most piquant aspect of the situation is that most of the NATO member states are categorically against Ukraine's entry there. Precisely because of the situation with Russia. Everyone understands perfectly well that poor Ukraine will have to be supported at its own expense, and also (God forbid) to protect against Russian aggression.

    With a few exceptions (see comments), the article is generally sound, but (!) Territorial disputes between candidate countries are not an insurmountable obstacle to their entry into NATO. In addition, the author confuses the consequences of Ukraine's membership in NATO and the EU. In the latter case, expenditures from the EU budget will indeed be significant ...
  23. Shiden
    Shiden 6 December 2021 13: 45
    -4
    The author is clearly twisting the facts. Firstly, on account of the admission of Eastern European countries to NATO, it is up to the aspirant countries themselves whether they want or do not want to join the alliance. For example, if Brussels or Washington would say that the acceptance of Belarus by OKDB violates the oral agreement, how would they react in Minsk . Correctly this would be regarded as interference in the internal affairs of the Republic of Belarus. Secondly, if the West wanted to accept Ukraine into NATO, it did it even earlier under Yushchenko, but he did not. From this we can conclude that the interests of Moscow were also taken into account in the alliance. But Moscow's policy in relations between the former republics was built on the basis of dialogue and conflict resolution, and from the principle of "Divide and rule", so the result is lost in the Caucasus and from Moldova to Ukraine. And now all the fuss is dumped on the West.
  24. The comment was deleted.
  25. Overlock
    Overlock 6 December 2021 15: 30
    0
    An amazingly balanced article in terms of content and conclusions! hi
    Although here some, especially violent ones, have already called for terrorist acts against the heads of foreign states ...
    Quote: Victor Leningradets
    A public, NATO humiliating military operation to completely eliminate the influence of the West in one of the countries in the post-Soviet space (including the physical destruction of iconic figures). I suggest - Pashinyan

    But nevertheless, you need to calmly understand and accept that
    Quote: Bez 310
    Quite right - it's late ...

    ....the train left.
    It's too late to drink Borjomi when the kidneys have fallen off
  26. tank64rus
    tank64rus 6 December 2021 15: 37
    +6
    Late. The last opportunity was 2014-2015, occupying the primordially Russian Novorossia. The sanctions would have been the same, if not less. Now all this would be in the past. They would talk, but to no avail. The West used these years very productively by forming and arming the Ukrainian army. Over the years of massive propaganda, they managed to win over most of the population to their side, convincing them that Russia is an enemy. In Russia, everyone appealed to the Minsk agreements. Yes, NATO is not yet accepting Ukraine into NATO, but this does not prevent them from building military bases. We don't have a horseradish radish sweeter.
  27. garrett
    garrett 6 December 2021 15: 56
    +1
    There are also countries with which Russia has significantly improved its relations today. In addition to Hungary, this includes the Czech Republic and Italy.

    Author, did you confuse anything about the Czech Republic?
    On April 23, the President of Russia signed a decree "On the application of measures of influence (counteraction) on unfriendly actions of foreign states" (Decree of April 23, 2021, No. 243 [2]). The document limits the conclusion by diplomatic missions of countries whose actions are recognized as unfriendly, labor contracts with individuals on the territory of Russia. The list of such countries was to be determined by the government.

    As of May 13.05.2021, 3, the list includes [XNUMX]:

    United States of America United States of America
    Czech Republic Czech Republic
  28. ShM05
    ShM05 6 December 2021 16: 09
    +1
    All the same, Strelkov was right, his predictions, which he gave either in 2015 or in 16, came true by 90%. And Strelkov himself was called a whiner, an all-conspirator, allegedly Putin has a HSP, he repeatedly said that it was necessary to end this problem with Ukraine and solve this problem once and for all, then they were very weak. It was impossible to stop the offensive of the militia, the Armed Forces of Ukraine fled with flashing heels. By agreeing to the Minsk agreements, the Kremlin saved Ukraine from defeat and collapse. The LPR and DPR, without the direct participation of Russia, are no longer able to stop the Armed Forces of Ukraine, all the ideological volunteers who followed them were allegedly killed by the DRG of Ukraine, which I very much doubt. This knot cannot be untied without a big war. The age-old dream of the West is coming true, they made you Russians kill each other. In this war, only the west will be victorious. Although if Didier Burkhalter comes again, the Kremlin and without all this can merge everything like 2014.
  29. Azis
    Azis 6 December 2021 16: 48
    0
    for the adoption of the same Ukraine, the votes of ALL 26 NATO members are needed
    The NATO Charter for the sake of Ukraine can be rewritten, this is not the Constitution of the Russian Federation.
  30. bandabas
    bandabas 6 December 2021 16: 49
    -2
    Of course a banal phrase, "It was smooth on paper, but they forgot about the ravines ... And jump on them." The genocide of the population of their country is evident (raising the retirement age, disintegration of medicine, a huge rise in food prices. The list goes on). If in the last century the "brothers" stuck a knife in the back with a suspender, what can we say about Syria? I'm not talking about Little Russia, Georgia and Central Asia.
  31. CHEREDA73
    CHEREDA73 6 December 2021 17: 30
    +3
    Any agreement, even oral, even written, makes sense only when there is the strength to force your partner to comply with it.
    But they are not.
  32. TatarinSSSR
    TatarinSSSR 6 December 2021 20: 42
    +3
    And what is the actual meaning of the article? Generalized retelling of the news? What did the author tell us that a person who is sometimes interested in news does not know?
  33. Unknown
    Unknown 6 December 2021 21: 24
    +3
    Our president lives in the world of pink ponies. All statements made by him at different times, and extremely contradictory, in fact, gave reason to "partners" not to take them seriously. For example, in 2000 with Clinton. At a meeting held in a warm atmosphere, issues related to treaties on nuclear weapons, conflicts in the Caucasus and trade cooperation were discussed. And then Putin said: "We should consider the option of Russia joining NATO." "Why not?" - Clinton immediately replied without any objection.
    “I can’t imagine my country isolated from Europe, so it’s difficult for me to perceive NATO as an enemy,” such were the words of Putin. Subsequently, Putin himself spoke about this episode in a 2017 documentary by American director Oliver Stone. Farther . In July 2001, the Kremlin's master returned to the same topic during his first major press conference in front of 500 journalists. He advocated the creation of a "single security and defense zone in Europe." How? Either "by integrating Russia into NATO," or "by dissolving NATO," or by creating "a new organization in which Russia would become an equal partner." Where does such confidence in the peacefulness of the West come from? So a little later it came to light that something was wrong, he spoke differently "The Adapted Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe was signed in 1999. It took into account a new geopolitical reality - the liquidation of the Warsaw Pact. Seven years have passed since then, and only four states have ratified this document, including the Russian Federation.

    NATO countries have openly stated that they will not ratify the Treaty, including provisions on flank restrictions (on the deployment of a certain number of armed forces on the flanks) until Russia withdraws its bases from Georgia and Moldova. Our troops are being withdrawn from Georgia, and even on an expedited basis. We have solved these problems with our Georgian colleagues, and everyone knows that. In Moldova, there remains a grouping of one and a half thousand military personnel who perform peacekeeping functions and guard ammunition depots left over from the times of the USSR. And Mr. Solana and I are constantly discussing this issue, he knows our position. We are ready to continue working in this direction.

    But what happens at the same time? And at the same time, the so-called light American forward bases of five thousand bayonets each appeared in Bulgaria and Romania. It turns out that NATO is pushing its forward forces to our state borders, and we, strictly fulfilling the Treaty, do not react in any way to these actions. Well what can I say.!? And now new statements to which, as he called "colleagues", were ignored. Gone are the days and personalities that were listened to
    .
  34. evgen1221
    evgen1221 6 December 2021 21: 27
    -2
    Hurray for another breakthrough to the bottom of the inhabitants of the Russian Federation is being prepared, new hpps have emerged, due to the future impoverishment and the unrestrained export of all the country's resources, to buy the votes of NATO countries so that the Kemsk volost is not taken to NATO. Delightful! Is it okay that some countries themselves, without allies, get along with aggressive neighbors and live completely for themselves without impoverishing their people? Given the presence of Yao of intercontinental range and a simple designation that any military campaign against us will end in the cave age for the entire planet, you can generally spit on NATO shmato and take care of your country. So we’ll be richer there and they’ll start to fill up the union and take off the last shirt along with the skin for the sake of imperial popobol well, this is some kind of perverted bdsm
  35. WayKheThuo
    WayKheThuo 6 December 2021 22: 22
    -1
    To be honest, I do not quite understand the concern over the admission of Ukraine and Georgia to NATO.
    My level of awareness is obviously very low, but it's no secret for me that there are enough young men on the territory of Ukraine who sincerely hate my country and are ready to fight. Really, no kidding. And what, tell me, the difference - will Ukraine trample on us as a Sam-Sousse or as a part of NATO, because in any scenario of the "hot phase" NATO will "fit in." Deployment of offensive weapons? And who's stopping to deliver this without any entry into NATO? Nobody, I suppose, and if necessary - they will post, be sure.
    In fact, the expansion of NATO is one of the levers of pressure on my country, but there is a way out, IMHO, you just need to ignore it, having previously stated that if something is wrong, then Russia cannot guarantee the non-use of tactical nuclear weapons on the territory of Ukraine and Georgia, and so expand, you are welcome.
    But this must be stated once. Not to quote the classics and dance the gypsy with the exit with an expression of deep concern on the forehead, but to go out and say, addressing first of all to the citizens of the mentioned countries, so that it would be clear: firstly, the jokes are over, and secondly, everything will be very tough ...
    And then calmly deal with internal problems, since we have a cart and a small cart. And in general, foreign policy is determined by a number of factors that are completely and completely related to the internal life of the country: the level of public health, people's confidence in the state, people's confidence in the future, a sense of security and the possibility of self-realization - all that really cause deep concern.
    I think so.
  36. Diverter
    Diverter 6 December 2021 23: 21
    0
    1. to create a military base in Cuba.
    2. to create a subdivision of "officers' daughters", etc. to conduct information warfare against mattresses. For example, "create a movement of whites and play off with blacks. In the event of mass actions, send their unknown snipers. To suck the crowd. Specifically, stir up Texas to leave the states. Make a few provocations, raise a wave. Then declare that the Russian Federation recognizes Texas as a separate country."
    3. to carry out the same in gamerope.
    Those. create colossal internal problems for them.
    4. Leave Ukraine as a single state (except for the LPNR) and severely strangle economically and in terms of energy resources. Also raise a riot. In the future, bring your person to power.
    5. In Abkhazia, commit a provocation, send troops into Georgia and occupy the whole country. Then, on the basis of referendums, divide them into regions and admit them to the Russian Federation as ordinary regions.
    6. If we are beaten on the left cheek, then why do we tolerate? Maybe you should ... hit back with a shovel?
    1. Victor Leningradets
      Victor Leningradets 7 December 2021 07: 47
      +1
      The way of implementation is debatable, but the general idea is great!
  37. HollyGremlin
    HollyGremlin 6 December 2021 23: 32
    0
    5 kopecks worth mentioning:
    Russia has long and consistently two-headed. Looks both east and west. Previously, they looked from the height of the state. Now, alas, there is not enough strength. But this is the object of bargaining: if you take Ukraine, we will lie under China. Yes, it sounds lousy, but this is the reality. The empire lives on while it expands; the soldiers of the empire must die outside the border of the empire ... - surprisingly, the United States has perfectly assimilated many ideas of the past, it remains only to be amazed at what. And this seems to lead to the idea that some Si-jin will soon be in charge of Gazprom.
  38. AC130 Gunship
    AC130 Gunship 6 December 2021 23: 44
    0
    With this, everything is clear. For some reason, the scenario was not voiced: NATO signed everything as Putin wanted, and after 5 (or 30) years it spat on it. Ukraine, France and Germany are spitting on Minsk-2 now.
    That's what then ??? Well signed, they will say. But now they thought, voted, and we consider all these signatures invalid. Russians, for example, know that the Constitution can be easily tweaked. How will the contract on paper be so different?
  39. Astronomy
    Astronomy 7 December 2021 00: 21
    -3
    Well, Ukraine will join NATO, so all the strategic forces on its territory will be controlled by the alliance, but he did not start a war against the Russian Federation in the Baltic States. After all, they write that NATO is so close. So it makes sense to keep Ukraine like that if the Russian policy towards it turned out to be a failure and changed the desire of the majority of the population (it was against NATO, it was for NATO).
    Is it bad that there will be at least tough stability on the border? (Same as in the Baltics)
    And the fact that they themselves pissed away the entire zone of influence, with our Crimea and the Russian world / New Russia / Little Russia and others - well, it did not work out. It happens. We exchanged Ukraine for Crimea + Sanctions.
    Well, on the other hand, there will be stability on the largest European border. NATO is then tightly controlled, in contrast to the Ukrainian government.
    It does not happen that having made a gross mistake, play everything back. Minced meat can not be cranked (neutral Ukraine under the influence of the Russian Federation) force will only get worse.
    It is easier to fix losses (Crimea + sanctions will most likely remain).
    China also lives without Taiwan for a long time, and Ukraine will secretly hope for Crimea, but all NATO will tightly control it.
  40. mojohed2012
    mojohed2012 7 December 2021 08: 24
    +2
    Since 1939, Stalin began to prepare for the inevitable world war with the West. Whether it was Britain or Germany - then it made no difference already.
    Fortified areas, concrete pillboxes, and fortified defense lines were built on the western border.
    Yes, it didn't help. Yes, the Wehrmacht did not even notice them advancing, but!
    But at least something was done to strengthen the defense against the inevitable. Even though some measures were taken and the authorities, the people believed that there was protection and everything was being done to give a confident rebuff to the enemies.

    Today - Putin is asking for "legal" guarantees from NATO on non-proliferation, and from Bidon - guarantees of non-aggression !?

    Deja vu - was there a non-aggression pact with Hitler? Was! Help? - No!
    And then what is being done in our border areas (and throughout the country) to at least give people a chance to survive during bombings, missile strikes and nuclear attacks?
    Was it possible to restore and expand the number of bomb shelters? Was it possible to create capital reinforced concrete shelters for equipment and personnel wherever they are likely to be defeated by NATO and US attacks?

    Yes. The presence of missiles today will neutralize the trench defense system, but in a threatened period one cannot sit and ask the aggressors for guarantees, but something must be done.
    1. Alex777
      Alex777 7 December 2021 09: 25
      +1
      Quote: mojohed2012
      Fortified areas, concrete pillboxes, and fortified defense lines were built on the western border.
      Yes, it didn't help. Yes, the Wehrmacht did not even notice them advancing, but!

      Since you remembered about the defense lines, you can add that by the beginning of the war, no defense on the new border had been created, but the defense lines along the old border had already been disarmed.
      Why they rushed so quickly with disarmament is a separate question.

      Today - Putin is asking for "legal" guarantees from NATO on non-proliferation, and from Bidon - guarantees of non-aggression !?

      He does not ask, but announces the goals of the negotiations. Against the background of the preparation of these negotiations, Sweden refused to join NATO, and Norway decided to stop maneuvers on our border. There are already results.
      He who has eyes, let him see. And this is just the beginning.
      The more the West thinks about the consequences of the military confrontation, the easier it will be for us to live in Russia.

      Deja vu - was there a non-aggression pact with Hitler? Was! Help? - No!

      As Hitler went for resources, the States also want to come for this.
      But our strategic nuclear forces change the situation so radically that you need not worry about the importance of written agreements.

      in a threatened period, one cannot sit and ask the aggressors for guarantees, but something must be done.

      A lot is being done. I have already mentioned the strategic nuclear forces. We have undergone an almost complete update, and the States just need to start it.
      Trump allocated the money, and Biden cut it off - the printing press cannot cope. And the States cannot fight inflation. Should they raise the FRS rate, hundreds of thousands of Americans will not be able to service their existing debts and go bankrupt. And behind them hundreds of banks will be overwhelmed and there will be such a crisis as we have never seen before. bully
      1. mojohed2012
        mojohed2012 7 December 2021 12: 17
        0
        What you have stated is clear and logical.
        But we all understand that oral or written security guarantees, as well as non-aggression pacts with the West, are meaningless and futile. An example is the signing of written guarantees to Yanukovych by representatives of the West, along with the "opposition" on the Maidan. And where is Yanukovych now? Where are those guarantors and their guarantees - don’t save him Ways in a helicopter?
        This and that - it is clear that there is strategic nuclear forces, there is some kind of army and new / modernized weapons, there is a further advanced development of weapons and equipment, but promises and documents will remain so, since they will remain so. The West considers us subhuman. Be that as it may, this is the result of an age-old fake Russophobia.
        And with subhumans - Asians, "civilized" people are not obliged to abide by treaties. The gentleman, as he gave his word, took him away.
  41. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 7 December 2021 10: 11
    +2
    Good deed, only it was a little late. For 20 years.
    Then, while the power of the Soviet Union was still there, there was an army and a navy, it was possible and necessary to try with all our might to stop the alliance on the way to our borders. Today all this can be described in one word - late.

    20 years ago we had the Second Chechen War. On which 50 people were scraped from all districts.
    No need to deceive yourself - the safety margin of the Soviet Army ran out in the mid-90s. Next came dying, covered from above with bravura reports in the style of "Visiting a fairy tale" "Serving the Soviet Union". On paper, it was a formidable army, but in fact it was the skeletons of divisions, air regiments with one squadron, and ships of an indefinite technical state standing at the berths for months, smoothly transitioning from the active fleet to sucks.
    An operational duty officer, and on Kuznetsov the corridors have been flooded all their lives, so there was no need to shout at the entire Kola Peninsula, broadcasting the cries of the division commander that the first Russian aircraft carrier was sinking in the roadstead.

    We do not have a formidable aircraft carrier, we have a springboard for flying achievements, from time to time giving the course and occasionally providing flights of naval aviation with even more rarely working radio equipment.

    We do not have an aircraft carrier, we have a barge with individual randomly preserved radio-electronic elements that will require tens of millions and many months to recover, and we represent the division commander to the admiral, and the commander of the ship breaks into the General Staff Academy instead of procuring rusks.
    © Vice Admiral Radzevsky
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    1. mojohed2012
      mojohed2012 7 December 2021 12: 21
      +2
      It's not even about nonsense and financing. The fact is that when and if the United States decides to push Ukraine and Georgia into NATO, despite all the red lines and confrontation, they will be flooded with obsolete Western weapons that are being decommissioned or planned to become one. And the saturation of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, even with old weapons and equipment, will still draw by the ears to NATO standards.
      Even now they donate old boats, armored cars, cars and weapons.
      It was necessary to think about this in '14, then all this Russophobic rot at once would have gone through a long time ago, and not pulled snot for so many years.
  44. Rostislav
    Rostislav 7 December 2021 13: 05
    +2
    Everything is correct. They returned to the Middle Ages, when the right of ownership reigned, - what he could take and hold, then is yours by right.
    It is not the one who is right who is right, but the one who has more rights (power).
  45. Palmyra
    Palmyra 7 December 2021 20: 14
    +2
    "It's time to move on to documentary evidence. At least with regards to Ukraine."

    wassat Agreements with them are not worth a dedicated egg. Yanyk already signed contracts with them in 14 year. And what, they wiped it, spat and threw it away. They modestly look away and do not remember anything.
    And the fact that while some members will not sign Ukraine's entry into NATO, it’s for now ... Russia needed sanctions, everyone was bent down and no one would squeak.
    And about missed, so who's to blame, weren't there opportunities? At least in 15 near Mariupol .. They acted stupidly.
  46. Thompson
    Thompson 7 December 2021 21: 18
    0
    As you can see, all that could be picked up, the alliance picked up... In fact, only Ukraine, which has territorial disputes with Russia, and Moldova, which has territorial disputes with Transnistria, remained in the European part. And on the other side is Georgia, which also really wants to join NATO, but it also has territorial disputes with Russia.

    Very well noticed!
    And so, after so many years, Russian politicians came to the conclusion that it is not enough to receive verbal statements and guarantees from NATO, it is time to move on to documentary evidence. At least with regards to Ukraine.
    And here the naivety is striking!
    The Minsk Agreements are something that has been written, but no one is going to fulfill it. And, most importantly, it does not bear any sanctions or punishments for this.
    The NATO Nonproliferation Treaty on the territory of Ukraine and Georgia (the proud word "East" does not look here anymore) would be a document from the same opera - they would forget about it immediately after the ink had dried.
    Any contract on paper seems to be a document, but only while someone needs it, then it is paper with some text! I also completely agree, I think there is no need to list the agreements with the United States.
  47. wow
    wow 8 December 2021 21: 27
    0
    I remember with the Fuehrer of the great German nation there was also an agreement of non-aggression and friendship forever, with signatures, seals and other tsatski .... And the echelons with all the good flew to Germany right up until the morning of June 22, 1941 ...! No need to repeat the mistakes of Joseph Vissarionich! As old Müller used to say: "... in our time, Stirlitz, nobody can be trusted ...".
  48. Vik66
    Vik66 10 December 2021 17: 19
    0
    Yeah, will we sign a "legally" guaranteeing document, and if it is violated, will we sue them? lol
    To London High or to The Hague maybe? Nonsense is sheer, calculated for the public.
    But we can’t file a protest anywhere. neither we nor London and The Hague will be here anymore ...