"Russia has focused on laser guidance": in the United States compared approaches to guided missiles

The United States pioneered the development of laser-guided artillery shells with the 1970mm Copperhead product in the 155s. But the American army refused to use them due to the high cost and the need for third-party target designation. Instead, the focus was on GPS / INS.

Despite this, Russia has retained and improved its technology of laser-guided projectiles, it has put an emphasis on this, and they are now available in several different calibers: 120-mm and 240-mm mortars, as well as 122-mm, 152-mm and 155 -mm artillery

- noted in the publication Strategy Page (USA).

As indicated, “in the Russian Federation, the main emphasis was placed on the development of laser-type guided weapons” due to financial constraints.

Russia has found that laser guidance is paying off, especially after improvements in their laser targeting capabilities and laser projectiles were improved in the late 1990s. Russia simply did not have the money to develop something like the Excalibur [155-mm active-rocket satellite-guided projectile] and a fuse with a set of precise guidance

- explains the author.

As an example of improvement, he cites the first laser-guided projectile "Daredevil" (and then "Daredevil"), developed in the 1970s for the 240-mm self-propelled artillery system 2S4 "Tulip". According to him, the problem with the "Daredevil" was that the laser detector in the shell had a narrow field of view. Therefore, it was often necessary to fire several shots so that the observer providing target designation could be sure that his laser beam would be detected by the Daredevil's guidance system.

The new product "Krasnopol" was deprived of this drawback, "which is used without restrictions imposed by a narrow field of view."

Krasnopol shows its effectiveness at the very first shot, and the laser designator has a range of five kilometers, which means that a longer-range 240-mm projectile can be used much more efficiently

- the author notes.

Comments

[velikoros-xnumx]

In addition to cost, there is another factor in favor of laser target designation - independence from the availability and performance of the satellite constellation. In a serious conflict with an enemy armed with advanced electronic warfare systems and anti-satellite weapons, laser target designation, oh, how can it help out ...

[Pandiurin]

Quote: velikoros-xnumx

In addition to cost, there is another factor in favor of laser target designation - independence from the availability and performance of the satellite constellation. In a serious conflict with an enemy armed with advanced electronic warfare systems and anti-satellite weapons, laser target designation, oh, how can it help out ...

Laser target designation objectively has its drawbacks, all the same, the concept of firing and forgetting is always preferable for the one who shoots.

In general, you give target designation based on new physical principles.

[Andrey Moskvin]

"on new physical principles"
It is necessary to turn to psychics.

[Vadim237]

Now ammunition can be made with inertial optical guidance, only it will be necessary to put a picture of the target object with reference to the terrain into the projectile control unit.

[Illanatol]

The same smoke screen, camouflage nets, inflatable models, etc.

[Illanatol]

Quote: Pandiurin

Laser target designation objectively has its disadvantages,

Does GPS guidance have its drawbacks?

Here the "Russian hackers" will intervene and redirect the missile / projectile to the positions of the Yankees themselves.

[Bradley]

And where did you get the idea that military GPS is easy to jam? And yes, there is also an inertial guidance system.

[Login_Off]

Laser target designation has more of them, consider: rain, snow, fog, smog, smoke screen, infrared and laser illumination, limited target designation radius.
But there is a significant plus: - simplicity and accuracy.
But lady weather can spoil a lot.

[Cat]

the weather can spoil a lot

Not just the weather. Detection of laser radiation by the enemy, suppression of GOS receivers, setting false targets, absorbing coatings and screens, the need for a communication channel between the gunner (or UAV) and the battery ... and much more.
But it is better to have different and different things, and not to put all the eggs in one trouser leg.

[stankow]

Without communication between the gunner and the battery, you cannot shoot with any guidance. How can I convey an assessment of defeat?

[Crimean partisan 1974]

But lady weather can spoil a lot.

... here End one should distinguish between laser guidance systems .... the most common but expensive is target irradiation for an ATGM seeker, ... it is an ATGM that is expensive ... and in fact, as the cheapest of an ATGM .. this is guidance by means of obrazii in the cone of the laser beam ... the UR itself does not see the target, it is guided by the operator with the help of photodetectors at the stern of the UR, you can approach the target without irradiating it, that is, it will light up only when approaching, but for this you need a high skill of the operator ... therefore, the tank KUV is not very expensive compared to the classics ... Invar has quite good indicators compared to Svir and Reflex, Invar has a two-cone laser beam aberration channel ... that is, it more accurately keeps a course on the target

[smaug78]

That's right if you are a secretive ninja ...

[stankow]

And also the accuracy of the laser is decimetres. The GPS has a meter.

[Zaurbek]

This is both a plus and a minus ... ..countries that will disable the GPS or Glonnas 1-2-3-4 ... ... .. and so you also need a gunner or an uav, which also costs money and its calculation

[yfast]

Hmm, Krasnopol, it turns out, has so much human factor ... I thought, just insert the batteries.

[kapitan92]

Quote: yfast

Hmm, Krasnopol, it turns out, has so much human factor ... I thought, just insert the batteries.

M982 Excalibur Precision round / Shot from the M777 howitzer in Afghanistan

[Split]

Remembered our movie

[Flooding]

Quote: kapitan92

M982 Excalibur Precision round / Shot from the M777 howitzer in Afghanistan

normal such combat rate of fire is 1 shot per two minutes

[Roma 1977]

But if you hit a priority target every two minutes with a 100% result, then this solves.

[Flooding]

Quote: Roma-1977

But if you hit a priority target every two minutes with a 100% result, then this solves.

reasonably
if not covered with counter-battery fire
however, the Americans can afford a decent range, which makes the task difficult

[stankow]

For the same time, you can transfer fire from the rapper and flee with fire, immediately to defeat, destroy the target with at least 10 shells. It will be two orders of magnitude cheaper. And faster.

[poquello]

)))))))))))))))))))))) "In the Russian Federation, the main emphasis was placed on the development of laser-type guided weapons" due to financial constraints.
aha! that's why the bourgeoisie a new Excalibur on the laser head is sawing))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[stankow]

You don't understand. This is different;)

[Zaurbek]

They are sawing double guidance…. There are both options

[poquello]

Quote: Zaurbek

They are sawing double guidance…. There are both options

ett because escalibur in advertising is highly accurate, but in real life a projectile of small dispersion

[Zaurbek]

Yes. But they have mass-produced seeker for conventional 155mm projectiles. Screwed in and. Corr projectile

[poquello]

Quote: Zaurbek

Yes. But they have mass-produced seeker for conventional 155mm projectiles. Screwed in and. Corr projectile

is it like this?
correction with what?

[Zaurbek]

GPS coordinates

[poquello]

Quote: Zaurbek

GPS coordinates

not "by" but "with what"? a conventional projectile for the task is designed so as to have minimal deviations from the external influence after the shot, and not for the convenience of taxiing

[Zaurbek]

On the screwed-in unit, brains and steering wheels ... instead of a standard fuse

[poquello]

Quote: Zaurbek

On the screwed-in unit, brains and steering wheels ... instead of a standard fuse

here below there is a picture with a red field, does it really not reach what is the efficiency of the screw-in heads correction? What kind of effort should be applied, whether it be steering wheels, brakes, whether it is a gas belt, and what stabilizes it from rotation? even I have doubts about the miracle "normal 155mm projectile"

[Zaurbek]

I think it depends on the angle of the correction. We also have some kind of shells without mechanical rudders at all, but they have to be fired and aimed at the gun ... ..they are aimed at a low angle.

Take a look: the history of weapons. Recently, the video was about Krasnopol

[poquello]

Quote: Zaurbek

I think it depends on the angle of the correction.

just like that, a little correction IMHO

[Zaurbek]

Laser targeting is probably more accurate than satellite targeting. But GPS accuracy for 155mm projectile "behind the eye"

[beeper]

I admired how businesslike, businesslike and dexterous the soldiers were preparing the shell for battle!

[stankow]

And next to the set of a young technician, with pliers lay. The developers thought about everything! The gunners are delighted!

[beeper]

Here is this artillery "set" of thoughtful tools, and how into it (right according to aerospace rules, after the manipulations done, they returned, each to his own "nest"), all these cunning keys, "twirls", I, as a mechanical engineer and locksmith -the instructor, was just fascinated!
And yes, by the military specialty of a tanker, I am hereditary (Dad, after the war, I learned from an ordinary infantryman to be an officer-artilleryman and from childhood initiated me into cannon basics) a gunner!
So, you understand my delight!

[Vadim237]

Belarusians offer renovation of old Krasnopolye

[Split]

And the tank stands still in the field and thinks ... and when Krasnopol will arrive. I'm crazy how many manipulations it takes to shoot

[Prisoner]

Well, what are the lads to do? If they start fighting, not a single film crew will fit into this pace.

[Split]

Ours are not lads, but wars. I think in a real fight all kudi shvidshe
I mean our guys
ZY I am 50% Ukrainian and am still shocked by what is happening in Ukraine. Especially in light of the news that we are attacking. For what our grandfathers fought during the liberation of Ukraine ...

[Roma 1977]

Reminded:
- I am 20% Dagestani.
- And by 80%?
- Water.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

If they start fighting, not a single film crew will fit into this pace.

..your truth .... The Cornet takes 30 seconds, .. and Invar is driven into the T-72 (90) barrel for 3 seconds, THE REST 7 SECONDS FOR AIMING

[poquello]

Quote: Split

And the tank stands still in the field and thinks.

and the projectile flies where was it sent during the shot? ) or where are they illuminated?

[Split]

Krasnopol is not allowed on moving targets, only stationary ones. The laser provides a greater accuracy of hitting, roughly speaking, KVO. Those. there is an approximate point where you need to shoot + - a hundred meters (this is a common practice for artillery) then they light up and the projectile with gas engines is already adjusted to its destination

[poquello]

Quote: Split

Krasnopol is not allowed on moving targets, only stationary ones. The laser provides greater accuracy of hitting, roughly speaking, KVO. Those. there is an approximate point where you need to shoot + - a hundred meters

you obviously took it from the "wedding in a robin")))))))))))))))))))))))),
for a target with a speed of 30 km / h, the probability of a direct hit is 0,7, Ethiopians are delighted with the result of firing at tanks, three tanks in 5 minutes, then the enemies fled

[Split]

If the facts were obvious, I mean the video. A projectile at a distance of even 20 km flies for more than half a minute .... a tank at a speed of even 30 km per hour .... travels a couple of hundred meters ... I don't believe

[poquello]

Quote: Split

If the facts were obvious, I mean the video. A projectile at a distance of even 20 km flies for more than half a minute .... a tank at a speed of even 30 km per hour .... travels a couple of hundred meters ... I don't believe

for non-believers, paragraph one

Quote: poquello

and the projectile flies where was it sent during the shot? ) or where are they illuminated?

[Split]

It's like they shot in the other direction, the projectile turned around and hit

[poquello]

Quote: Split

It's like they shot in the other direction, the projectile turned around and hit

this type of this probability is 0,7, clouds, smoke, etc., interfere with the correction, they do not have time to turn back

[stankow]

They shot at 3 km. And the tanks were standing. Or moving slowly.

[stankow]

Full preparation or transfer of fire is also needed when firing controlled ones. And if necessary, even the sighting is carried out. Since they are more readjustable, there is a limit on aiming error.

[Nikolaevich I]

With the use of drones for laser guidance, many (meaning "long-range" ammunition) ammunition with semi-active laser homing found a "second life"! (Previously, in order to shoot the Krasnopol, one had to secretly send the gunner to an area that was very dangerous for him! And the equipment was still “the same” in weight and dimensions! Sometimes it was not possible to penetrate the desired area ... or the gunner was found before how he was able to accomplish a combat mission! Often he found himself in the position of a suicide bomber on a fifty-fifty ...) "Laser" weapons (ammunition) are now cheaper than "3rd generation" ammunition; that is, with autonomous homing ... Therefore, UAVs with laser guidance systems turned out to be a "godsend" for gunners of "all stripes"! Even very rich and technologically advanced countries have, produce and improve "laser" ammunition! Now semi-active laser seeker is put on aircraft weapons, artillery ammunition, MLRS rockets and even. tactical missiles! (They also find application for "remote-controlled" (by laser beam) missiles ...) By the way, now this method of laser guidance has become possible: artillery and MLRS fire, along with "combat" shells, small-sized UAVs with laser guidance channels in housings similar to " combat ... Yes, such a UAV is "disposable"; but before "death" it directs several "combat" ammunition at a target or targets ...

[poquello]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

"Laser" weapons (ammunition) are now cheaper than "3rd generation" ammunition; that is, with autonomous homing ... Therefore, UAVs with laser guidance systems turned out to be a "godsend" for gunners of "all stripes"! Even very rich and technologically advanced countries have, produce and improve "laser" ammunition

Do you think we don't have all these gsn? just the results for all countries are unsatisfactory, like)))) for Excalibur with electronic warfare

[Max PV]

Those who believe, after watching the video, that they say everything is long, clearly have no idea what artillery is. Firstly, most of the video is the assembly of the projectile and the talking shop, but in reality, shooting from 0:52 to 1:50 is preparing data for firing, and from 5:20 to 6:20 - aiming the gun and loading. Usually, the shells are assembled before the battle. It's as if a video about shooting with a machine gun showed the opening of zinc and the equipment of stores. Secondly, in real combat work, everything is done about twice as fast. Thirdly, in artillery, firing in itself is not a quick thing - the projectile can fly to the target for up to two minutes. Finally, essentially the same operations are performed with the American "Excalibur", with the exception of particulars, such as the American's programming method, or setting the fairing drop distance on ours, or the fact that they have a separate-cartridge loading, but we have a separate-sleeve one, which has almost no effect on time.
And, yes, satellite guidance is no different in terms of target illumination with a laser. And there, and there it is necessary, because somehow you need to calculate the exact position of the target relative to the LMD to determine its exact coordinates. No, of course, you can not shine a target, but, for example, stick to landmarks on the ground or generally work on a map. But in the first case, the time will be even longer, and in the second, accuracy will suffer.

[telobezumnoe]

it's easier with a machine gun, if you saw a target, shoot, but here how long will it take from detecting a target to firing at it?

[Prax1]

Yes, this is a forced emphasis, in view of the fact that we simply do not have the necessary technologies and element base for the development of the next generation. Russia still does not have 3 knees. Not even a prototype .... Of course you can say expensive, etc. But here, even in the information field, there is no information that such developments are underway. So we use the old-fashioned laser.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Prax1

There is not even a prototype ...

There are "prototypes" ... and some have even been tested in combat conditions! If you say no, then you don't know the topic ...

[Crimean partisan 1974]

... But here, even in the information field, there is no information that such developments are underway.

... hello my ra ...... Whirlwinds have been tyrannizing the combat equipment of the adversaries for half a century, with all the equipment crawling independently at once. floats or flies ..... just the Whirlwinds are expensive because of their GOS .... and the Invars are cheap, exactly like the Cornets .... well Leo-2 blazed in Iraq !!!!

[Jacket in stock]

Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

Whirlwinds for half a century

Whirlwinds are exactly the very missiles with laser semi-active guidance, which are written about in the article.
.
And Invar and Kornet are remote-controlled missiles that do not have their own seeker. Shooting them all is possible only within the line of sight of the target, which sharply limits the possibilities and makes the calculations of launchers vulnerable.

ATGMs of the 3rd generation implement the principle of "fire and forget" i.e. have their own completely self-sufficient GOS, which itself detects and recognizes targets, needing only initial targeting. This also has its drawbacks, but the calculation remains safer.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

Whirlwinds are exactly the same missiles with a laser semi-active

... everything is correct .... the only thing is that the Whirlwinds remained in service with the Ka-50,52 and Su-25T and Su-39 ... and basically all ATGMs on photocells ... cheap and cheerful ... .and especially impressive is Invar-E with its powerful PF warhead .... I hope you don’t need to ... remember that the 24 kg PF 122 mm cannon IS-2 tore down the 10-ton towers of the Tigers and Panthers ... nuss. .we will discuss

[Jacket in stock]

Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

debate

About what? What

PF 122 mm IS-2 cannon tore down 10-ton Tigers' turrets

I already know. But first I had to get in. And for this, different methods are used.
Americans use all three - command, semi-active, autonomous. We are only two so far, because autonomous seeker with target recognition in the dimensions of an ATGM is still just being created.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

are just being created.

.... the main thing is to create effective weapons here and now on the topic of man-hours ... at this stage, while the Russian Federation is in the lead ...

[Jacket in stock]

Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

at this stage, while the Russian Federation is in the lead ... the natevites have no chance of priority ... not a word at all

Blessed is he who believes.
They have gone a generation further.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

Blessed is he who believes.
They have gone a generation further.

... and what exactly ... and what is such a GENERATION, .... for example, I know what is in military affairs. it is important that there would be a lot and effectively, in this case, due to the multiple cheapness, you can slap a lot of Invars, unlike foreign ones of the same class ... explain what GENERATION in ATGM means ... well, and the cost of a shot

[Jacket in stock]

Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

explain what GENERATION means in ATGM

The first generation - command, manual control. The operator steers the rocket while looking through the telescopic sight.
Second, the operator detected and identified the target, indicated it to the aiming machine, then the system itself guides the missile with commands or highlights it, and it flies to the mark itself.
Third, the operator detected a target or received external target designation without seeing it. Launches a rocket "kudato there", its seeker detects and identifies the target and the rocket flies towards it independently without the participation of external guidance systems, the so-called. "shot and forgot".

it is important that there were a lot and effectively, in this case, Invars, due to the multiple cheapness, can be spanked a lot

and even cheaper to give Katyusha a volley, it will be generally a penny. But the efficiency is not very good. It is not a fact that at least one projectile will hit the target.
Shooting Invar must be constantly in line of sight of the target, and even shine in its direction, giving target designation to the enemy for a return shot.
The operator of Javelin and / or Excalibur can generally leave the position a second after the shot. Yes, and can shoot from behind cover at all without unmasking himself.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

and even shine in her direction, giving target designation to the enemy for a return shot.

..... the operator of Kornet and Invar has such a device as a toggle switch "With excess", that is, the rocket goes in a cone of a beam that does not irradiate the target itself and only 2 seconds before it hits, the target can find out what it is irradiating .. therefore, stealth quite high ... in any case, flaming tanks in Syria and Iraq confirm this
..that with regards to Jova ... I watched a lot of clips on Jovu ... what amazed me, ... so there is not a single vidos where the target is pretty much not warmed up, that is, it does not emit heat ... in this case where to shoot ... Jove is just an expensive and ineffective toy, a kind of dead-end branch of ATGMs ... whatever one may say ...

[Andrea]

What if the GPS is replaced? To beat on your own?

[Alsur]

Quote: velikoros-xnumx

In addition to cost, there is another factor in favor of laser target designation - independence from the availability and performance of the satellite constellation. In a serious conflict with an enemy armed with advanced electronic warfare systems and anti-satellite weapons, laser target designation, oh, how can it help out ...

The foreign author pretends that he does not understand that the Russians chose a different concept and there were reasons for that, but the author skillfully uses his skill, to show the negative in a good way, he indicates that we did everything right, relying on GPS , and the Russians simply because of their pallor could not do it. So, with one movement of the hand, there is a substitution of concepts and deception. Our country is denied the right to independently choose the path of military development. The thesis that in the United States developers always do everything right is thrown away, and the Russians can only copy what they have enough money for.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

The foreign author pretends that he does not understand tog,

..... weapons are measured in man-hours, that is, how much energy needs to be spent on the production of one unit ..... well, at least for example ... in the USSR during the 2nd world production of PCA was 6 man-hours, PPP 4 man-hours, .. the British freak PP Sten 5 man-hours ..... so he understands everything ... another thing is to roll the attacked country into a knot by selling them weapons with an incredible price .... with holobandy the same thing happens, the stranglehold of norms shrinks

[Jacket in stock]

Quote: ALSur

Russians chose a different concept and there were reasons for that

And we all know these reasons - the insufficient accuracy of GLONASS at that time and the lack of an element base for the manufacture of compact satellite positioning receivers.
But then there were plenty of hero soldiers to deliver the "pointer" to the enemy's rear.

The thesis that in the United States developers always do everything right is thrown away, and the Russians can only copy what they have enough money for.

the fact is stated that in this area the Americans had a technological advantage, and they also have more money, because they print it.

[stankow]

[quote = Jacket in stock]
But then there were plenty of hero soldiers to deliver the "pointer" to the enemy's rear.
[Quote]
They don't get anyone into any darkness. The gunner works, albeit from the front line, but his own, in the location of his troops. One and a half km from the dividing line. Otherwise, how will you survey the enemy's strip?

[Alsur]

Quote: Jacket in stock

And we all know these reasons - the insufficient accuracy of GLONASS at that time and the lack of an element base for the manufacture of compact satellite positioning receivers.
But then there were plenty of hero soldiers to deliver the "pointer" to the enemy's rear.

Somewhere I have already heard it - they have filled up with corpses or are still giving birth. And how do you know about the reason for the decision by the Russian military in favor of laser target designation due to insufficient accuracy for military purposes of GLONASS?
Here is some additional information on the topic, the most interesting ones are highlighted:
“Satellite guidance of high-precision weapons allows solving only police tasks, - explained to RIA Novosti the director of the company - manufacturer of navigation systems, candidate of technical sciences Alexei Levchenkov. If there is opposition in the form of electronic warfare, then you can forget about the satellite. In this case, there are only two methods of guidance - either inertial means, or target illumination. "
Lack of satellite chip shells - they don't hit moving targets, while "Krasnopol" strikes enemy armored vehicles at speeds up to 36 kilometers per hour. By the way, in 2014, the developer of Excalibur, Raytheon, began to create an improved Excalibur S projectile with laser guidance. Radar and infrared homing heads can also be used on Excalibur. Interestingly, the Tula Instrument Design Bureau is currently working on the Krasnopol-D satellite-guided missile. Everything goes to the fact that in the near future in Russia and the United States there will be whole lines of guided missiles to deal with various targets.

[Kaw]

As far as I read, the Americans invented a laser-guided projectile much earlier than we did, it was the Cophead, if I'm not mistaken, Our Krasnopol is an attempt to catch up with them. But the Americans went further and now they have a GPS-guided projectile "Excalibur", although it seems that Excalibur later made a version with laser guidance.

[Zaurbek]

I don't know about a shell, but a bomb was used in Vietnam. And the laser-guided projectile was already on the T-55 and 62.