Military Review

Nikolay Vasilievich Gogol and Ukraine

137

Nikolai Vasilievich Gogol is a great playwright, publicist, poet, author of many works, some of which have become the property of world literature. According to V.G. Belinsky, with Gogol a new era appeared in literature: the Russian romance and the Russian story began, how truly Russian poetry began with Pushkin.


Nikolay Vasilievich was born in Sorochintsy (now - Velyki Sorochintsy, Poltava region, Ukraine). The temple, where the writer was baptized in 1809 (Savior Transfiguration Church), has survived to our time. According to the generally accepted opinion, he was a descendant of Ostap Gogol, hetman of the Right-Bank Army of Zaporizhzhya, who took part in the anti-Polish uprising and formed rebel detachments in Mogilev-Podolsk.

Nikolay Vasilievich Gogol and Ukraine
The church where Gogol was baptized in 1809. Photo: Denis Vitchenko, wikipedia.org

The father of the future great writer, Vasily Gogol-Yanovsky, also had an interest in literary activity and even wrote several comedies in Ukrainian. In addition, he was a good friend of Kotlyarevsky, the author of the poem "Aeneid" in Ukrainian "mov". The Ukrainian scientist V. Zvinyatskovsky writes that Nikolai's mother, Maria Ivanovna Gogol-Yanovskaya, did not manage to master the Russian language perfectly. And the famous literary critic V.V. Gippius believed that Ukrainian was used in conversations in the Gogol family.

Thus, Nikolai Vasilievich was imbued with Ukrainian culture from childhood and was very good at language. His classmate Pashchenko testifies that at the Lyceum they played together a Ukrainian play written by Gogol himself. It is interesting that Nikolai Vasilyevich throughout his life was interested in native folklore, customs, everyday life and collected huge materials on these topics, which was directly reflected, for example, in “Evenings on a Farm near Dikanka”.


Nikolai Vasilievich's father - Vasily Gogol-Yanovsky

It is important to familiarize the reader with the situation of the Ukrainian language at that time.

There is such a thing as diglossia, which means the coexistence of two languages ​​in one territory, which are used by their native speakers depending on a certain situation. For example, French and Russian coexisted in Russia: the first was used in high society and in business correspondence, and the second - in colloquial speech, mainly among the common people. This phenomenon was also observed on the territory of Ukraine. The Russian language was used for writing serious literature, for correspondence, and the Ukrainian language for simple communication and maximum for writing comedies. Therefore, it was impossible to break out into the world and make a serious literary career with works in "mov", on which, for example, poetry was considered bad form. That is why many works of Ukrainian writers, like Taras Shevchenko, were in Russian.

The formation of high Ukrainian culture had not yet ended, so it was simply impossible for Gogol to write serious works in his native language. He found consolation in St. Petersburg, where he discovered the interest of Russian society in Ukraine. This is somewhat paradoxical: the Russian elite had a negative attitude towards the Ukrainian language, but not towards the Ukrainian culture.

Gippius explains that, on the one hand, Ukraine belonged to Russia, and on the other, it did not. Then it was more likely a neighbor, a blood relative, who at the same time was quite exotic, such a Slavic Italy, as it was perceived in St. Petersburg. This exoticism drew Russian society to Ukraine, beckoned to get to know it better and learn its features.

In his works, Gogol borrowed a lot from the Ukrainian baroque. He used the structure of typical works of this trend and much more. His books "Evenings on a Farm near Dykanka" and "Mirgorod" are based on Ukrainian folklore. Nikolai Vasilievich praises the free nature of the Cossacks, illuminates the general picture of the struggle for independence of the Zaporozhye Cossacks, and so on. We can say that Gogol largely popularized the Ukrainian history, telling a wide audience about her exploits and features.

Gogol wrote about his nationality:

I will tell you one word about what kind of soul I have, Khokhlak or Russian, because, as I see from your letter, at one time it was the subject of your discussions and disputes with others. To this I will tell you that I myself do not know what kind of soul I have, Ukrainian or Russian. I only know that I would not have given any advantage to a Little Russian over a Russian, or a Russian over a Little Russian. Both natures are too generously endowed by God, and how on purpose each of them separately contains something that is not in the other - a clear sign that they must replenish one another. For this, the very stories of their past life were given to them unlike one another, so that the various forces of their characters could be brought up separately, so that later, merging together, make up something most perfect in humanity.

It is impossible to say to which country Gogol's activities should be attributed. His works greatly influenced both the development of Russian culture and the development of Ukrainian culture. Nikolai Vasilievich can certainly be called a Ukrainian, but it is impossible to say that he is an exclusively Ukrainian writer. He loved his small homeland with all his heart, but did not forget about his big one. Gogol wrote:

And in general Russia is getting closer and closer to me. In addition to the properties of the homeland, there is something even higher than the homeland in it, as if it were the land from which it is closer to the heavenly homeland.

It is rightly said that literature should unite, not divide.


Pushkin and Gogol
Author:
Photos used:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/
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  1. The comment was deleted.
  2. Xlor
    Xlor 29 November 2021 18: 17
    -8
    Nobody says that Nikola Tesla was a Serbian inventor - he was an American inventor. And Sikorsky was not a Russian engineer, but an American ... Gogol did not write a single line in Ukrainian! What kind of carrier of Ukrainian culture is he to you?
    1. Ros 56
      Ros 56 29 November 2021 19: 05
      +20
      Somehow you have problems with the factology, and quite big ones. And who is this and what?

      Love the book, the source of knowledge, and don't talk nonsense
      1. Xlor
        Xlor 29 November 2021 19: 25
        +1
        don't smack nonsense

        Are you reading diagonally? Having received American citizenship, they became Americans. Not Serbs or Russians. So I will quote you - "do not talk nonsense"
        1. d1975
          d1975 29 November 2021 21: 00
          +3
          Judging by your pursuit, you are a flyer, but who is mentally developed? Wildly sorry! Ilya Muromets is the brainchild of Sikorsky! He received US citizenship only after the revolution, there are transmissions and a lot of information. Read the sources and knowledge will be with you.
          1. Xlor
            Xlor 30 November 2021 03: 18
            -12
            Ilya Muromets is the brainchild of Sikorsky! He received US citizenship only after the revolution ...
            and on mental development who?

            I know all this. But if in terms of mental development you are at least at the level of a 10-year-old schoolboy, then open any American literature and it will be written there that he is an American. Well, if there is absolutely no oil in your head, then use the translator from Google ...
            1. Egor53
              Egor53 30 November 2021 21: 23
              0
              Dear Xlor, you are rude on the net. If for you (I deliberately write with a small letter) what is written in American literature is true, then there is no point in contacting a doctor for you - congenital stupidity cannot be cured.
        2. Egor53
          Egor53 30 November 2021 21: 20
          +1
          Obtaining citizenship does not change nationality.
          Is Einstein a Prusak in your opinion, or an American?
      2. Nicholas C.
        Nicholas C. 29 November 2021 20: 51
        +23
        Another Svidomo propagandist is trying to pull an owl onto the globe - to make the MOV more ancient, to steal Russian culture in the way they are used to - nonsense. Examples:
        Quote: Author: Artemenko A.A.
        It is generally accepted that he was a descendant of Ostap Gogol, hetman of the Right Bank Troops of Zaporizhzhya, who took part in the anti-Polish uprising and formed rebel detachments in Mogilev-Podolsk.
        Evstafy (Ostap) Gogol was Colonel Podolsky, then Mogilevsky at the pro-Turkish hetman Petro Doroshenko. After the capture of Doroshenko by the tsarist army in 1676, Gogol did not serve Samoilovich, but went to serve "with a handful of Cossacks" to the Polish king Jan Sobessky. According to Kulish, Sobessky appointed Gogol hetman after the victory over the Turks near Vienna. But the battle of Vienna took place in 1683, and Gogol said goodbye to life in 1679. In the ukropedia it is written that he was the hetman, Muscovites, Poles, and hacked Turks. But who will believe even the word of the Ukrainian wenches, especially the dill?
        Our grandfather Gogol declared himself a descendant of the Polish Gogol in 1788. What was questioned by Kulish, Lazarevsky, etc. The conventional wisdom is that he was not a descendant. Because Nikolai Vasilyevich's grandfather, an Orthodox priest with a spiritual and academic education, could not even give the genealogy correctly. The meaning of this maneuver of the writer's grandfather: after the liquidation of the hetmachine and the transfer of the Cossack service to new borders, the local population suddenly found out that the main class in the empire was the nobles. The locals rushed to "look for" noble roots in order to enroll in the nobility. The gentry were good for this. "Aeneid" by Kotlyarevsky is just about that. On a fictional govirka, in order to give antiquity to the work, the boys trace their genealogy right back to Aeneas. The whole of Russia was consumed. The Tsar awarded Kotlyarevsky with a ring for the Aeneid.
        Quote: Author: Artemenko A.A.
        Vasily Gogol-Yanovsky, also took an interest in literary activity and even wrote several comedies in Ukrainian.
        This is also not true. The writer's father was not involved in literary activities. They played small performances, such as sketches, in the house of a neighbor, a wealthy relative. To them "impromptu" (according to the mother of S.T.Aksakov), the father wrote texts.
        Aksakov also claims from his mother that his father wrote in literary Russian and Little Russian dialect. Only Russian texts have survived.
        The author did not have enough strength to analyze all the untruths, and there is no need. This from the author will only pass Svidomo schoolchildren with a completely scraped brain.
        1. Silhouette
          Silhouette 29 November 2021 21: 29
          -2
          Where did the surname Gogol come from? It becomes clear if you write it in English Hohol.
          1. Flooding
            Flooding 29 November 2021 21: 58
            +3
            Quote: Silhouette
            Where did the surname Gogol come from? It becomes clear if you write it in English Hohol.

            silly joke
            gogol the British call goldeneye
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 30 November 2021 00: 06
              +5
              Quote: Flood
              gogol the British call goldeneye

              if someone suddenly does not know that gogol is a bird

              https://www.homeenglish.ru/otherbird.htm
    2. uralant
      uralant 29 November 2021 19: 08
      +16
      Quote: Xlor
      Gogol did not write a single line in Ukrainian! What kind of carrier of Ukrainian culture is he to you?

      No! There was no such culture and I hope they will soon forget about its attempts to establish itself. And the article is basically harmful. In an attempt to propagate the Nazis! Under Gogol, no such questions were raised: Russian or Ukrainian. THERE WASN'T SUCH A NATION AND THERE IS NOTHING TO COME UP!
      1. Luminman
        Luminman 29 November 2021 19: 45
        +12
        And the article is basically harmful

        It is absolutely clear that some kind of roguel wrote it!
      2. d1975
        d1975 29 November 2021 21: 02
        +10
        Correctly for the speech they were called Little Russians, and so they were Russian!
      3. dauria
        dauria 30 November 2021 09: 31
        -3
        There was no such culture

        So throw it out of "Evenings on the Farm ..." even though this
        - Yes, what is better, here it is printed: told by such and such a deacon.
        - Spit on the head of the one who published this! breach, bitch Muscovite. Is that what I said? That’s right, who’s the devil has rivets in his head! Listen, I'll tell you now.
        We moved closer to the table and he began.


        Do you know where the "purest Russian" language is? In the garrisons. "Distilled" to the point of nausea, completely devoid of local words, phrases and phrases. Which any person hears in his homeland from birth from his mother. Therefore, it is easy on the soul when you return home.
        There is the Ukrainian language, it still exists. Handsome if he is native from childhood. And not learned by decree by the same Kiev announcers.
        One more thing. If people want to understand each other, then a blind German will understand a deaf-mute Chinese. Checked.
        1. Victorio
          Victorio 1 December 2021 13: 44
          +1
          Quote: dauria
          So throw it out of "Evenings on the Farm ..." even though this
          - Yes, what is better, here it is printed: told by such and such a deacon.
          - Spit on the head of the one who published this! breach, bitch Muscovite. Is that what I said? That’s right, who’s the devil has rivets in his head! Listen, I'll tell you now.
          We moved closer to the table and he began.

          ===
          all this is clear, local customs, folklore. take the same from the northerners-pomors, the same Don Cossacks. it is probably possible to call such a Ukrainian culture, with an interference, but at that time it was called Little Russian. but this is something the current nationally concerned population of Ukraine does not want to reckon with.
          1. dauria
            dauria 1 December 2021 16: 41
            -2
            it is probably possible to call such a Ukrainian culture, with an interference,

            And the Tatars, Mordovians, Buryats, Mari and many, many others? Do they also have an interference fit? Is there really "Russian" culture in modern Moscow? That's where the "tightness" is, so the "tightness". All right, Yeseninskaya Ryazan.
            In Khmelnitsky, I barely understood the language even during the Soviet era. And you say - there is no such culture. Then there is no Tatar culture in Kazan either.
            1. Victorio
              Victorio 2 December 2021 09: 49
              0
              Quote: dauria
              it is probably possible to call such a Ukrainian culture, with an interference,

              And the Tatars, Mordovians, Buryats, Mari and many, many others? Do they also have an interference fit? Is there really "Russian" culture in modern Moscow? That's where the "tightness" is, so the "tightness". All right, Yeseninskaya Ryazan.
              In Khmelnitsky, I barely understood the language even during the Soviet era. And you say - there is no such culture. Then there is no Tatar culture in Kazan either.

              ===
              ? I wrote about the Slavic ethnos, and specifically the Russians. those. how Russians living in different territories acquire new features and characteristics. in this case, Little Russians. and now Ukrainians
      4. Kronos
        Kronos 30 November 2021 13: 00
        -1
        Once upon a time there were no many nations, so what?
    3. Carat
      Carat 29 November 2021 20: 52
      +7
      Quote: Xlor
      Gogol did not write a single line in Ukrainian!


      He was not Ukrainian either. All his life he called himself a Russian.
      1. Carat
        Carat 29 November 2021 21: 04
        +1
        By the way, Gogol is a pseudonym. The surname at birth was Polish Janowski.
    4. alex neym_2
      alex neym_2 29 November 2021 21: 31
      +12
      Well, the truth surfaced - a heavy aircraft, which for a long time had no analogues in the world, was built in Russia by an "American" engineer Igor Sikorsky, who was educated at some university in one of the US states (if I am not mistaken under the name "Russia "). The fact that he did not accept Soviet Power and emigrated is his own business. But what about the "American" Sergei Rachmaninov and many other prominent figures who went abroad? Following your logic, the FAU rockets were created under the leadership of the "American" Werner von Braun (SS officer), who later stood at the origins of the US space program. And how would you react to the great fighter Ivan Poddubny, who refused a million, but did not accept the citizenship of mattress makers. Striped lovers of buying talents, regardless of nationality ... but what turned out to be in their hands is an achievement of the American nation! In America, there are no poor - there are only poor millionaires! (a little humorous).
    5. businessv
      businessv 30 November 2021 00: 07
      -2
      Quote: Xlor
      Gogol did not write a single line in Ukrainian! What kind of carrier of Ukrainian culture is he to you?
      Did you understand what you wrote ?! He is the most direct "bearer" to US, if not for him, then there would not be a huge layer of the culture of Little Russia, which we know today from N. V. Gogol! Culture has nothing to do with language, so you know! Russian culture includes about 185 nationalities and 200 languages, and this only makes it richer! Whose are you yourself that you are asking the question in this way? Not otherwise an aryan lol
      1. Egor53
        Egor53 30 November 2021 20: 39
        +3
        Is it like "culture has little to do with language"?
        Culture has nothing to do with nationality. People of many nationalities contributed to the great Russian literature, but ... they all made this contribution exclusively in Russian.
        1. businessv
          businessv 1 December 2021 14: 28
          -1
          Quote: Egor53
          People of many nationalities contributed to the great Russian literature, but ... they all made this contribution exclusively in Russian.

          If you read, I wrote not about literature, but about culture - you must admit that these are slightly different things and concepts! Culture is related to the people of a particular nationality in a particular case and to the whole people - in relation to the country. This is "The totality of the achievements of mankind in industrial, social and spiritual terms." (c) But, for you to understand, a Muslim has a slightly different attitude to life than a Christian, or a Buddhist, etc. and no matter what language they speak, they have a different philosophy and a different life, but they live close, communicate, adopt each other's lifestyle, etc. and all this together will be a common culture in relation to the state in which they live. You need to think a little before writing, in such matters it is not at all superfluous. good
    6. Egor53
      Egor53 30 November 2021 20: 35
      +2
      Sikorsky was a RUSSIAN engineer. He was born in the Russian Empire, and received his education there, and made a significant part of his developments. Why would he be considered an American engineer with a hangover?
      Here is Edison - he was a purely American engineer.
      So also Chlorine and Werner Von Braun will be called an American rocketman.
      1. Xlor
        Xlor 30 November 2021 20: 43
        -1
        Sikorsky was a RUSSIAN engineer. He was born in the Russian Empire, and received his education there.

        Following your logic, then Gogol was a Ukrainian writer. He was born and educated there ...
    7. Grandfather
      Grandfather 9 January 2022 18: 00
      0
      Moreover, none of his works contain the word "Ukraine" or its derivatives.
  3. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 29 November 2021 18: 17
    -3
    It is rightly said that literature should unite, not divide.
    And, apparently, that is why the author at the beginning of the article, mentioning "Aeneid", took the word "Mova" in quotation marks ...
    But literature has been / is being written on it too, which should unite ...
    1. Xlor
      Xlor 29 November 2021 18: 21
      +5
      But literature has been / is being written on it too

      What kind of literature has been written and is being written in mov, do not remind me? Calls of Bandera or Shukhevych?
    2. Dimka75
      Dimka75 29 November 2021 18: 44
      +4
      literature that should unite ..

      You were told in the article that while NV Gogol gutted on "mov", he was an ordinary sharovary and a little grower.
      And he became a Russian / Russian writer (not a maloros!) Thanks to the Russian language and literature.
      And it's not even about literature "which should unite." Self-esteem and identity. Well, what can you take from the cold ..

      Ps. And I understood Gogol's desire to leave Ukraine for St. Petersburg when I found out in what wilderness the estate of his parents was (and still is). There is simply nothing within a 15 km radius even now.
      1. Flooding
        Flooding 29 November 2021 19: 12
        +3
        Quote: Dimka75
        There is simply nothing within a 15 km radius even now.

        and how much is needed for happiness?
        house, bathhouse, forest, river and fifty serf souls
    3. Egor53
      Egor53 30 November 2021 21: 39
      -1
      Literature owes nothing to anyone.
  4. knn54
    knn54 29 November 2021 18: 17
    +14
    Gogol felt himself not a Ukrainian, but a Little Russian. A representative of a special branch, namely the Russian people,
    "There are Cossacks, Siberians, Pomors with their own specific dialect, traditions and love for their small homeland, and there are Little Russians."
    BOTH peoples have a lot to be proud of.
    1. Xlor
      Xlor 29 November 2021 18: 24
      +5
      Gogol felt himself not a Ukrainian, but a Little Russian. A representative of a special branch, namely the Russian people

      Now the forelock sharovarniki will explain to you that the Russians are exactly who they are, and you are just a Finno-Mongol ... wink
      1. d1975
        d1975 29 November 2021 21: 05
        0
        I offer a photo of the monument to Catherine 2 in Krasnodar, which stands, and what will they see there !?
    2. Avior
      Avior 29 November 2021 18: 51
      -1
      Judo, according to what is given in the article, Gogol divided the concepts of Russians and Little Russians, although in general, at that time, Little Russians and Veliross were considered by some to be different branches of the same people - Russians.
      But in general, at that time it was a secondary issue.
      The subtlety is that at that time religion mattered much more than nationality, everything was tied to it and the division into Christians, primarily Orthodox, and all other "infidels" was much deeper than the division by nationality. There was no problem for a Russian to marry with an Orthodox foreigner; the marriage of an Orthodox Russian with a Muslim Tatar from a neighboring village was a rather difficult problem for that time.
      1. zenion
        zenion 29 November 2021 20: 06
        +2
        When Vladimir Vysotsky was asked what he meant in one or another of his works, he replied - I don't care about this. Let the specialists do this, if necessary. Just like the grandson of Yaroslav Hasek, they asked how you can understand what your grandfather wrote about? He replied - for some it was humor, for others it was sarcasm.
      2. Astronomy
        Astronomy 29 November 2021 20: 19
        +1
        Quote: Avior
        Gogol shared the concepts of Russians and Little Russians, although in general, at that time, Little Russians and Veliross were considered by some to be different branches of the same people - Russians.

        all sorts of questions about there what kind of different these peoples have arisen just now. Previously, under the king in Ingushetia or general secretaries in the USSR, the differences between these two peoples were not raised. One state, one subjects. Questions arose only in faith and education.
        It was correctly noted that the rulers generally had French. And in the academic environment - German. It did not matter who you were Ukrainian Maloros, Velikoros, Tambovites or Kievites.
        By the way, when reading Russian literature, they always singled out Ukraine as something of their own, but separate. What Tolstoy, Pushkin, Gogol ..
        an interesting feature. She disappeared only in Soviet times.
  5. Vasilenko Vladimir
    Vasilenko Vladimir 29 November 2021 18: 17
    0
    how exactly did he spot the national idea
  6. Prisoner
    Prisoner 29 November 2021 18: 19
    +16
    “Farewell, comrades!” He shouted to them from above. “Remember me and come here again next spring and take a good walk! the time will come, there will be a time, you will know what the Orthodox Russian faith is! Even now, distant and close peoples sense: their tsar will rise from the Russian land, and there will be no power in the world that would not submit to him! .. "(c) Nikolai Vasilievich wrote strongly. Very much. And fermentation in the minds of Ukrainians has been going on for a long time. "Hey, hetman and colonels! Do not do such a woman's deed! Do not believe the lyakham: they will sell, psyayuhi!" (c) And in fact they will sell with giblets. They will definitely sell.
    1. Egoza
      Egoza 29 November 2021 18: 56
      +11
      Quote: Captive
      What the hell took the Poles? Do you think there is anything in the world that a Cossack would be afraid of? Wait, the time will come, the time will come, you will learn what the Russian Orthodox faith is! Even now, people far and near can sense: their tsar will rise from the Russian land, and there will be no power in the world that would not submit to him!

      This is exactly the passage that Ukrainian publishers do not publish! Bill, sir! And so - yes. "He is our Ukrainian writer"
      1. Crowe
        Crowe 29 November 2021 19: 07
        +18
        “Thank God for being Russian. The path is now open for the Russian, and this path is Russia itself. If only he loves Russian Russia, he will love everything that is in Russia. "
        But as if Nikolai Vasilyevich said today
        “There is great ignorance of Russia in the middle of Russia. Everything lives in foreign magazines and newspapers, and not in their own land. The city does not know the city, the man is the man; people living behind only one wall seem to live beyond the seas. "
  7. Nafanya from the sofa
    Nafanya from the sofa 29 November 2021 18: 31
    +8
    Becoming high Ukrainian culture was not over yettherefore it was simply impossible for Gogol to write serious works in his native language.

    Yes, what kind of "revelations" you have not read recently on VO.
    Probably it should be considered the apotheosis of "serious works in the native (Ukrainian) language"
    [Center]
  8. Dart2027
    Dart2027 29 November 2021 18: 59
    +5
    The formation of high Ukrainian culture was not over yet

    And what is it?
  9. gurzuf
    gurzuf 29 November 2021 19: 01
    +6
    Quote: knn54
    Gogol felt himself not Ukrainian

    Was there Ukraine then? Or did he, like Wanga, predict it?
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 29 November 2021 19: 42
      -10
      Little of. Then, there were even Jews. And they did not have their own state ...
      1. gurzuf
        gurzuf 30 November 2021 09: 37
        -1
        As Ostap Suleiman Ibrahim Berta would say Maria Bender-bey, he is also Bender-Zadunaisky -I know my brother Kolya! And there is also a saying - when o.o.ol was born, the Jew began to cry. I understood the hint that you consider yourself to be the chosen ones of God. also, like the Jews in the time of Nikolai Vasilievich, the same did not have their own state.
  10. Andrey Moskvin
    Andrey Moskvin 29 November 2021 19: 03
    +7
    "now the Great Sorochintsy" lol lol
    This is the whole of today's Ukrainian,
    sucked from the finger.
    1. Dimka75
      Dimka75 29 November 2021 19: 24
      +3
      Quote: Andrey Moskvin
      "now the Great Sorochintsy" lol lol
      This is the whole of today's Ukrainian,
      sucked from the finger.
      Ukrainians have nothing to do with it.
      On the Move it means Big.
      When the villages are united, they are called that. Big ..
      Big Sorochintsy, Krynki, etc. And so it was necessary to translate.
      The author so wanted to sketch a little, not knowing the facts and language.
      1. Andrey Moskvin
        Andrey Moskvin 30 November 2021 01: 34
        -3
        And what about "big"? lol
    2. Flooding
      Flooding 29 November 2021 19: 44
      +5
      Quote: Andrey Moskvin
      "now the Great Sorochintsy" lol lol
      This is the whole of today's Ukrainian,
      sucked from the finger.

      Great Sorochintsy is translated as Big Sorochintsy.
      There are also Malye Sorochintsy in the Poltava region.
      See how simple it is.
      1. Andrey Moskvin
        Andrey Moskvin 29 November 2021 20: 11
        +7
        Apparently, this is why they do not accept the term "Little Russians", otherwise they will have to recognize the "Great Russians" who simply live in most of Russia.
        1. Carat
          Carat 29 November 2021 21: 16
          +6
          Yes, the term "Little Russians" only defines the place of residence in Russia. There are a lot of such terms: "Siberians", "Sakhaliners", etc.

          Those. this is an attitude towards a certain part of Russia, but not nationality.
  11. AML
    AML 29 November 2021 19: 04
    +14
    Ukraine officially disowned Gogol in 14. So close the topic. Gogol is a Russian writer.
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 29 November 2021 19: 43
      -11
      Give the facts of "denial", if it does not bother you.
  12. rocket757
    rocket757 29 November 2021 19: 05
    +8
    To share what belongs to everyone ... you can't think of anything more stupid.
    1. Gardener91
      Gardener91 29 November 2021 19: 35
      +6
      Quote: rocket757
      To share what belongs to everyone ... you can't think of anything more stupid.

      Exactly! Even the borscht was "taken away".
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 29 November 2021 19: 43
        +2
        Come on ... no one will grow such a snatch to take away what has become popular.
        All those "rights" to which the "brand" is complete ... only commercial speculators are interested.
        In general, what will you do with the flawed, let them amuse themselves, then everything will return to its place.
    2. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 29 November 2021 19: 44
      -5
      I totally agree.
    3. Astronomy
      Astronomy 29 November 2021 20: 23
      +2
      Quote: rocket757
      to share what belongs to everyone ... you can't think of anything more stupid.

      an old habit of humanity ..
      They even shared the heads and relics of the saints! In one country it happened ..
  13. Dizel200
    Dizel200 29 November 2021 19: 10
    +3
    Oh, how, on VO already Raguli inventions began to be published. Where is this world heading? recourse
  14. bistrov.
    bistrov. 29 November 2021 19: 10
    +9
    There was no "Ukrainian" language, as the author "informs" us here, in those days, there was no, there was a Little Russian dialect, in fact, the dialect of the southern Russian rural population. The modern Ukrainian language was created by Hrushevsky in the 20s of the last century, and the creation of the so-called. "Ukrainians" - the harmful national policy of the Bolsheviks, which led to the collapse of the USSR and the loss of vast territories of the Russian land.
    For that matter, there was no such thing as "nationality" in the Russian Empire. There were estates and denominations
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 29 November 2021 19: 47
      -7
      Check it out on Wiki. 1798 The "Little Russian LANGUAGE" was changed ...
      Hopefully there is no need to explain the differences between language and dialect?
      1. Carat
        Carat 29 November 2021 21: 19
        +2
        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
        Check it out on Wiki. 1798 The "Little Russian LANGUAGE" was changed ...
        Hopefully there is no need to explain the differences between language and dialect?


        Those. You also don’t need to explain the difference between the Austrian-Galician language and the Little Russian surzhik?
        1. The leader of the Redskins
          The leader of the Redskins 29 November 2021 21: 32
          -7
          Well, please enlighten about the Austrian - Galician Move. And then I speak two languages ​​(plus surzhik), but I've never even heard of such a thing. Only, if not difficult, with confirmed facts, and not speculation.
          1. Carat
            Carat 29 November 2021 21: 44
            0
            Those. You, apart from the Military Review, do not read anything at all.
            Well read it though. Here the author has a pretty good description: https://zen.yandex.ru/media/id/5ef8896c0d13dd78e21972de/evoliuciia-movy-a-ved-mog-poluchitsia-krasivyi-iazyk-609ba1b93f44ce7ed10d5600
            1. The leader of the Redskins
              The leader of the Redskins 29 November 2021 21: 55
              -6
              That's just the point that I read. And as I already pointed out to you - in two languages. But it would never occur to me to refer to the Zen trash heap.
              I ran at a gallop at the source you indicated - zero evidence. Except for the well-known things outstretched. Moreover, the "works" are mentioned under the signatures of the anonymous author.
              You can fill in any search line with phrases: "Russian" or "Ukrainian mova". And the Internet will give you the wording, history, and so on.
              Then fill in what you have come up with and tell me what the search engine will give you.
              And I can dig up articles like the one on "Zen" without you. Both for and against!
              1. Carat
                Carat 29 November 2021 23: 17
                -1
                You know, Zen also has smart and educated people. This historical channel is being conducted by a person with a clearly higher education in history. He devotes a lot of time to history even now. And most importantly, he writes thoughtfully and logically.
                1. The leader of the Redskins
                  The leader of the Redskins 29 November 2021 23: 24
                  -5
                  That is, you have not found the wording of the Austrian-Galician move invented by you on the Internet? Expected.
                  Get started with the basics, then try to move to more specialized sites and, most importantly, study the issues from different angles. Even from the opposite side.
                  Well, after that, maybe we will discuss it.
          2. Egor53
            Egor53 30 November 2021 21: 47
            -5
            There is no point in educating you, Leader of the Redskins. If you are not familiar with the Austrian-Galician Movka, then talk to Vuik s Polonyna from Transcarpathia. You will not understand anything.
            1. The leader of the Redskins
              The leader of the Redskins 30 November 2021 21: 55
              -1
              Unlike many of the local commentators, I have been to Uzhgorod and Lvov.
              I know who is vuiko and strict. And I know how the bicycles differ from the rover.
              But I don’t know Galician-Austrian language. Because it simply does not exist.
              And the opponent does not want to admit that he has blabbed the stupidity and twists himself, childishly, sliding, now to the left, now to the right.
    2. Silhouette
      Silhouette 29 November 2021 21: 05
      +4
      Quote: bistrov.
      The modern Ukrainian language was created by Hrushevsky in the 20s of the last century,

      Not certainly in that way. The principles of word formation in mov were the first to be invented by Kotlyarovsky in his banter "Aeneid". He had fun himself and amused others and did not expect that after a while they would be taken seriously and put into the basis of the so-called Ukrainian language.
    3. Avior
      Avior 29 November 2021 23: 02
      -4
      Read the Aeneid of Kotlyarevsky, it was written in the Poltava dialect of the Ukrainian language in the 18th century, long before Hrushevsky was born, there are reprinted editions of that time on the network, from the very beginning of the 19th century.
      Differences from the modern Ukrainian language are minimal, forget this invented invention about Hrushevsky by some unknown person.
  15. Avior
    Avior 29 November 2021 19: 18
    -10
    The formation of high Ukrainian culture was not over yet

    I think the question is not about culture. It's just that at that time Ukrainian was not yet a literary language, although as a spoken language it had developed and existed for a long time, which allowed Kotlyarevsky to write his version of the Aeneid in Ukrainian.
    Many do not quite correctly understand the term literary language
    Literary language (also the standard language [1]) is a processed part of the common language, possessing, to a greater or lesser extent, written norms; the language of all manifestations of culture, expressed in verbal form.

    The main feature is the presence of formulated and written literary norms and rules, without this the use of even a developed language for a literary purpose is difficult - different readers will read the same text in different ways. That is why for a long time Russian also could not be used as a literary one, for this purpose in Russia they used Old Church Slavonic, although no one bothered to write Russian words according to the rules of Old Church Slavonic.
    After the creation of a full-fledged grammar of the Old Church Slavonic language by Milenty Smotritsky, the Russian literary language was gradually purposefully formed on the basis of the Grammar of Smotritsky with the filling of the Russian language with words mainly from the Moscow dialect and other sources - many had a hand in this - from Lomonosov to Pushkin, gradually forming the literary Russian known to us. this is noticeable if you read Lomonosov and Pushkin - the difference is immediately visible. The Great Russian colloquial continues to exist in parallel with the literary Russian, and it differs quite significantly from each other, which is clearly seen from the dictionary of the Great Russian colloquial language of Dahl - if they wrote a text in the language of Dahl's dictionary, then many Russians would not understand it well. It is clear that literary Russian was formed purposefully and for a long time, therefore, before its final formation, French was used in parallel as a literary one.
    It is clear that until the norms and rules of the literary Ukrainian language were formed, its possibilities for literary work were very limited. Ukrainian literary was formed in a different way - unlike Russian, in which the vocabulary was selected for the grammar of Old Church Slavonic, in Ukrainian they wrote down the norms and lexical stock of the already long-formed Poltava dialect of the Ukrainian language - therefore, the language of Kotlyarevsky slightly differs from modern literary Ukrainian
    1. Xlor
      Xlor 29 November 2021 19: 33
      +3
      at that time Ukrainian was not yet a literary language

      The Ukrainian language did not become literary at that moment either, because there is no literature on it. Unless write some obscene word on the fence. With knowledge of language, it's not like getting to a literary editor - you can't even get to the gallows ..
      1. Silhouette
        Silhouette 29 November 2021 21: 10
        +5
        There is no literature in the Ukrainian language even now. There is literaryism and graphomania. In extreme cases, the works of writers and poets of the regional scale. Not this way? Then name me at least one work that could be put on a par with Pushkin, Tolstoy, Gogol or the level of Zola, Maupassant, Moravia, Borges, etc.
    2. Flooding
      Flooding 29 November 2021 19: 58
      +8
      Quote: Avior
      unlike Russian, in which the vocabulary was selected for the grammar of Old Church Slavonic

      sorry, could you clarify this point?
      what does it mean to pick up vocabulary?
      is he somewhere lying and waiting to be picked up?
      1. Avior
        Avior 29 November 2021 22: 52
        -6
        It happens in different ways. There are also synthetic languages ​​that are created from scratch.
        In the case of the literary language, it is written above what the literary language is and what is its difference with the spoken language, otherwise it is clear from the comments above that not all of this has been read - the lexical stock of the spoken Moscow dialect of the Russian language was first imposed on the grammar of Old Church Slavonic, they added even the lexical stock of foreign words, other dialects of Russian, and received the literary Russian language, which was quite purposefully improved in several stages and at the stage of Pushkin approximately acquired the general form that we use now. It is clear that someone did not sit down and came up with it, but the improvement was quite purposeful and the created literary language spread first among the upper classes, competing for some time with French, and then gained general distribution as a single language - spoken and literary in one person. In Europe, at about the same time, there is a rollback from Latin as a common written language - it played the role of Old Church Slavonic in our country - in favor of national languages, which receive a full literary status.
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 29 November 2021 23: 58
          +2
          Quote: Avior
          It happens in different ways. There are also synthetic languages ​​that are created from scratch.

          without going into the jungle of reflections
          in a specific situation
          the question is clear and direct
          you wrote thirty lines but didn't answer it
          how exactly did you select the vocabulary for the grammar of the Old Church Slavonic, "creating the Russian language"?
          I ask you not to be distracted by either Latin, or Aramaic, or Old French.
          1. Avior
            Avior 30 November 2021 00: 25
            -6
            I answered that, but you probably don't want to see the answer for some reason.
            At the initial stage, we used the vocabulary of the colloquial Moscow dialect in writing according to the rules of Old Church Slavonic grammar. Of course, this did not happen at one moment and not through the efforts of one specific person and not a narrow group of people.
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 30 November 2021 03: 44
              +2
              Quote: Avior
              First of all, the lexical stock of the spoken Moscow dialect of the Russian language was imposed on the grammar of Old Church Slavonic

              I considered that this is nothing more than a fragmentary information from Wikipedia, and not an answer to the question

              now I understand that this is the way it is
              you cannot write anything more substantive than a single phrase "used the lexical stock of the Moscow dialect"
              1. Avior
                Avior 30 November 2021 06: 26
                -3
                you probably don't want to see the answer for some reason.

                quod erat demonstration
                1. Flooding
                  Flooding 30 November 2021 06: 32
                  +2
                  Quote: Avior
                  quod erat demonstration

                  Russian literary language was formed naturally in the course of the history of the development of the Russian state and Russian culture.

                  just as the artistic Latin language was formed in due time.

                  the transition of quantity into quality.
                  1. Avior
                    Avior 30 November 2021 06: 41
                    -5
                    the literary language was formed naturally during the history of the development of the Russian state


                    Yes, you are strong! Your phrase is much more general than the one you accused me of.
                    The literary language presupposes the presence of a formalized literary norm, in contrast to the spoken language.
                    You need to understand where in the sentence "Execute cannot be pardoned" to put a comma, otherwise the performer may understand what was written differently than the writer thought.
                    When and how was this regulation created?
                    1. Flooding
                      Flooding 30 November 2021 06: 48
                      0
                      Quote: Avior
                      Your phrase is much more general than the one you accused me of.

                      perhaps, but I do not explain the origin of the Russian literary language.
                      I just dispute your thesis
                      Quote: Avior
                      The literary language presupposes the presence of a formalized literary norm, in contrast to the spoken language.

                      of course
                      that's why I wrote that its appearance is directly related to the development of statehood

                      which is impossible without written records management, training system and standardization

                      for this reason, for example, there is no need to talk about the literary Ukrainian language.
                      1. Avior
                        Avior 30 November 2021 10: 25
                        -3
                        but I do not explain the origin of the Russian literary language

                        this is what you do in the most general terms
                        Russian literary language was formed naturally

                        of course
                        that's why I wrote that its appearance is directly related to the development of statehood

                        which is impossible without written records management, training system and standardization

                        Take an interest, did modern Hebrew originate before or after the emergence of the state of Israel?
                        for this reason, for example, there is no need to talk about the literary Ukrainian language.

                        At the time of Gogol, Kotlyarevsky and Shevchenko, there was no literary Ukrainian; it was formed in the second half of the 19th century.
                        But a completely formalized grammar existed already at the beginning of the 19th century.
                        GRAMMAR OF THE LITTLE RUSSIAN NARITY,
                        or
                        The grammatical demonstration of the essential distinctions that distanced the Little Russian narrative from the pure Russian language, accompanied by different ideas and works on this subject.


                        Sochin. Al. Pavlovskiy.



                        Ego pro sententia mea hoc censeo. - Pedibus in hanc sententiam itum sit! -
                        Senec. Apokolokint.






                        ВЬ SANKTPETERSBURG €.
                        In the printing house of V. Plavilshchikov,
                        1818 year.


                        quite myself with official permission.

                        Printing allowed:

                        so that according to printing, before the release of the Printing House, one copy of this book for the Censorship Committee, another for the Department of the Ministry of National Education, two copies for the IMPERIAL Public Library and one for the IMPERIAL Academy of Science were presented to the Censorship Committee. S.P.B. Maya 14 days, 1818.



                        Censor, Stat. Sov. and Cavalier Yves. Timkovskaya.

                        http://litopys.org.ua/rizne/slovpavl0.htm
                        although it had a purpose
                        LOVERS OF FATHER AND LITERATURE.



                        diligently dedicates



                        Writer.

                        that is, for a not very wide range and required significant revision.
                      2. Flooding
                        Flooding 30 November 2021 10: 36
                        0
                        Quote: Avior
                        Take an interest, did modern Hebrew originate before or after the emergence of the state of Israel?

                        I asked you not to spray
                        How does Hebrew relate to the issue under discussion?

                        Quote: Avior
                        At the time of Gogol, Kotlyarevsky and Shevchenko, there was no literary Ukrainian; it was formed in the second half of the 19th century.

                        How do you determine the degree of compliance of a language with the requirements put forward by the term "literary language"?

                        Quote: Avior
                        But a completely formalized grammar existed already at the beginning of the 19th century.

                        Sermo vulgaris (folk Latin) had grammar as well, but it was never considered classical literary Latin

                        grammar can be called a condition necessary, but not sufficient
                      3. Avior
                        Avior 30 November 2021 11: 06
                        -3
                        How does Hebrew relate to the issue under discussion?

                        directly refutes your claim
                        its appearance is directly related to the development of statehood

                        Hebrew, like Ukrainian, appeared before it became a state language.
                        how do you determine the degree to which a language meets the requirements of the term "literary language"

                        I have quoted several times what literary language is. I do not know why you are missing this definition in my posts and instead insist on mandatory criteria you have invented, such as paperwork.
                        The literary language is used for office work, including, as well as for other manifestations of culture and means of communication and communication, but this does not mean that only the language that is used for office work can be called literary.
                        It is suitable for use for office work due to its rather strict, although not static, codification - this is how it is more correct to write.
                        Sermo vulgaris (folk Latin) also had grammar

                        it is spoken, not written
                        Folk Latin; also known as "Vulgar Latin", Late Latin and Folk Latin (Latin Sermo vulgaris) - a colloquial variety of Latin, common in Italy, and later in the provinces of the Roman Empire. Contrasted with written literary form.
                      4. Flooding
                        Flooding 30 November 2021 11: 25
                        0
                        Quote: Avior
                        Hebrew, like Ukrainian, appeared before it became a state language.

                        - it was about the literary language
                        - Jews can boast of a very long history of statehood
                        Quote: Avior
                        I do not know why you are missing this definition in my posts and instead insist on mandatory criteria you have invented, such as paperwork.

                        did not specify such a "criterion" at all
                        paperwork as part of the literary language formation process - this is what I wrote

                        Quote: Avior
                        Literary language is used for office work including

                        think a little about chronology
                        first, paperwork arises as a necessary condition for document flow in the state
                        when the literary language was not yet formed

                        you will not argue that under Ivan the Terrible there was no workflow

                        it is at this stage that the language norms generally accepted in the state arise
                        a wide system of teaching language and writing appears
                        these are the necessary stages preceding the formation of a literary language
                        Quote: Avior
                        it is spoken, not written

                        do not write nonsense

                        firstly, you yourself started talking about grammar
                        and it was in popular Latin
                        what I pointed out to you
                        I don’t know what you wanted to prove.
                        for I wrote that the presence of grammar is not equal to the literary nature of the language.

                        secondly, literary classical Latin is a fairly late form of the Latin language
                        its appearance dates back to the XNUMXst century BC.
                        you assure that the Romans did not use writing before?

                        colloquial Latin has long been learned from various surviving inscriptions
                        "The most complete collection of Latin inscriptions is Corpus mulomedicus fecit sibi domum eterna, CIL (" Collection of Latin Inscriptions "). This publication was carried out by a team of leading specialists of the Berlin Academy of Sciences in the field of Latin epigraphy under the leadership of the prominent scientist Theodor Mommsen. the principle that 100 inscriptions are grouped into 000 volumes. "

                        moreover
                        "The richest material is provided by the texts of the initial stage of Roman literature, III-II centuries BC, when the norm of literary Latin was not yet fully formed, - the dramatic legacy of Plautus and Terentius. Plautus's comedies are written in the spoken language of educated Romans of that time. But, going to meet his rustic spectator, Plautus fills the plays with proverbs, jokes, various words and even curses, that is, with the entire arsenal of the lexicon of Roman streets, thanks to which the language of his characters is an excellent example of colloquial Latin speech and allows one to judge the language characteristic of this time phenomena. "
                      5. Avior
                        Avior 1 December 2021 00: 43
                        -3
                        - it was about the literary language
                        - Jews can boast of a very long history of statehood

                        Hebrew is not a literary language? Why don't you recognize ...
                        And the last statehood among the Jews was a couple of thousand years before the emergence of Hebrew, if anything.
                        first, paperwork arises as a necessary condition for document flow in the state
                        when the literary language was not yet formed

                        you will not argue that under Ivan the Terrible there was no workflow

                        Was. But not in literary Russian.
                        Your logic looks like this: while there is no state, there is no literary language, and while there is no literary language, there is no state either. This is absurd.
                        literary classical Latin - a fairly late form of the Latin language

                        But in reality?
                        The original written Latin language (what is now called Classical Latin) was adapted from the current spoken language of the Latins with some minor changes long before the arrival of the Roman Empire.

                        Then an empire appeared, expanded and the spoken language began to change in contrast to the static written language. That is, the situation is exactly the opposite with what you described.
                        Vulgar Latin, spoken in the Balkans, northern Greece, was heavily influenced by the Greek and Slavic languages ​​and was radically different from Classical Latin. [1] [2] As in many other languages, over time, vulgar speech differs from written language, and written speech remains somewhat static.

                        colloquial Latin has long been learned from various surviving inscriptions

                        And what is the problem in studying the inscriptions in the style "Vasya was here"? Now, too, many graffiti on the walls do not correspond to the norms of the literary language in any way, and what of this? Descendants will learn our colloquialism from them.
                        And they will also argue why a part of a man's body is written on the barn, and there was firewood there?
                        As for the second quotation, the literary author does not have to follow the literary norms of the language.
                        Read Sholokhov, for example.
                        the language of his characters is an excellent example of the spoken
                        speeches among the Don Cossacks of the first half of the 20th century. And so what?
                        On the whole, you are taking a long way from the main question - if you recognize the codification of norms as a prerequisite for a literary language, then who exactly and when created the grammar of the literary Russian language according to your version?
                        hi
                      6. Flooding
                        Flooding 1 December 2021 05: 50
                        0
                        Quote: Avior
                        Hebrew is not a literary language? Why don't you recognize ...
                        And the last statehood among the Jews was a couple of thousand years before the emergence of Hebrew, if anything.

                        we read what the Jews themselves write about this

                        “Hebrew, the language of the Jews, has existed for over three thousand years; the oldest dating Hebrew literary monuments preserved by the biblical tradition date back to the 12th century or the 13th century BC (for example, Song of Deborah, Judges 5: 2– 31), the first inscription is presumably by the 10th century BC. "

                        and you write that the Jews lost their statehood before the appearance of Hebrew
                      7. Avior
                        Avior 1 December 2021 07: 54
                        -2
                        Modern Hebrew and ancient Hebrew are very different.
                        I don't see an answer
                        On the whole, you are taking a long way from the main question - if you recognize the codification of norms as a prerequisite for a literary language, then who exactly and when created the grammar of the literary Russian language according to your version?

                        [Quote] [/ quote]
                      8. Flooding
                        Flooding 1 December 2021 09: 49
                        0
                        Quote: Avior
                        Modern Hebrew and ancient Hebrew are very different.

                        the same can be said for English, French and many other languages.
                        you discovered America
                        Quote: Avior
                        I don't see an answer

                        I'm just answering in the order of priority

                        but you only see what you want to see

                        my answer about Hebrew, which you drew as an example, you do not want to notice.
                      9. Flooding
                        Flooding 1 December 2021 05: 58
                        0
                        Quote: Avior
                        Was. But not in literary Russian.
                        Your logic looks like this: while there is no state, there is no literary language, and while there is no literary language, there is no state either. This is absurd.

                        please be careful
                        you are inconsistent
                        it was you who wrote that the literary language can be used in office work
                        Quote: Avior
                        The literary language is used for office work, including, as well as for other manifestations of culture and means of communication and communication

                        what is pointless to dispute
                        After all, I wrote about something completely different: that for the emergence of a literary language, a serious grammatical, syntactic and lexical base must be created.
                        Language standardization should take place, which is especially important for large states with different dialects.
                        It is in this context that I mentioned the times of Ivan the Terrible. After all, I wrote clearly
                        Quote: Flood
                        first, paperwork arises as a necessary condition for document flow in the state
                        when the literary language was not yet formed

                        What may not be clear here?
                      10. Avior
                        Avior 1 December 2021 07: 56
                        -2
                        Obviously, you do not understand that during the time of Ivan the Terrible there was no literary Russian, and accordingly, according to your logic, there was no office work either.
                      11. Flooding
                        Flooding 1 December 2021 09: 53
                        0
                        Quote: Avior
                        Obviously, you do not understand that during the time of Ivan the Terrible there was no literary Russian, and accordingly, according to your logic, there was no office work either.

                        you are not able to read what I write several times already?
                        read by letter!

                        my logic is that under Ivan the Terrible there was no literary language.
                        but fully developed written language was used.
                        Quote: Flood
                        think a little about chronology
                        first, paperwork arises as a necessary condition for document flow in the state
                        when the literary language was not yet formed

                        you will not argue that under Ivan the Terrible there was no workflow

                        it is at this stage that the language norms generally accepted in the state arise
                        a wide system of teaching language and writing appears
                        these are the necessary stages preceding the formation of a literary language
                      12. Flooding
                        Flooding 1 December 2021 09: 44
                        0
                        Quote: Avior
                        And what is the problem in studying the inscriptions in the style "Vasya was here"? Now, too, many graffiti on the walls do not correspond to the norms of the literary language in any way, and what of this?

                        I never cease to be surprised
                        is it really necessary to return you to the correspondence so that you do not lose the thread of the discussion?
                        Quote: Flood
                        Sermo vulgaris (folk Latin) had grammar as well, but it was never considered classical literary Latin

                        grammar can be called a condition necessary, but not sufficient

                        Quote: Flood
                        you yourself started talking about grammar
                        and it was in popular Latin
                        what I pointed out to you
                        I don’t know what you wanted to prove.
                        for I wrote that the presence of grammar is not equal to the literary nature of the language.

                        I wrote to you that there was colloquial Latin (which of course had a written language!)

                        and only in the XNUMXst century BC. literary Latin was formed

                        thereby letting you know that for several centuries Ancient Rome existed without a literary language, using the so-called colloquial Latin.
                        This alone should have prompted you to think about the birth of a literary language in the process of society accumulating certain values ​​of the level of general education and ... the development of literature (this is a discovery!)
    3. Konnick
      Konnick 29 November 2021 20: 17
      +2
      That is why for a long time Russian also could not be used as a literary one, for this purpose in Russia they used Old Church Slavonic, although no one bothered to write Russian words according to the rules of Old Church Slavonic.

      Ukrainian education affects. Everything is upside down. Do not call the Macedonian dialect of the Bulgarian language the basis of the Russian language. The Russian folk language has nothing to do with the official Church Slavonic, as you call it here in the context of the Old Church Slavonic. The Russian language arose earlier than the so-called "Old Church Slavonic". And in general, how did such an article end up on VO?
      1. Flooding
        Flooding 29 November 2021 21: 19
        +3
        Quote: Konnick
        Do not call the Macedonian dialect of the Bulgarian language the basis of the Russian language.

        what is this "Macedonian" (Solunian) dialect?
        how can it be determined if the difference with other dialects was not recorded in writing (presumably there were others, if we are talking about one of them?) of the Bulgarian language?
        Moreover, Solun (Thessaloniki) was never part of the Bulgarian kingdom.
        1. Konnick
          Konnick 30 November 2021 01: 15
          0
          what is this "Macedonian" (Solunian) dialect?

          This is the dialect spoken by Cyril and Methodius.
          1. Flooding
            Flooding 30 November 2021 03: 52
            +1
            Quote: Konnick
            This is the dialect spoken by Cyril and Methodius.


            no source records the existence of such an adverb
            dialectal differences could not be recorded in writing, since Cyril and Methodius actually created the Slavic writing system.

            "you bo sta selѹnѧnina, yes selѹnѧne are purely slovѣnsky besѣdѹyut"

            words of Emperor Michael from "The Life of Methodius", Chapter 5

            (you are the Selunians, and all the Selunians purely Slavic talking)
            1. Konnick
              Konnick 30 November 2021 06: 01
              -1
              Cyril and Methodius actually created the Slavic writing

              They created their writing on the basis of their native language, not in someone else's. And they translated the Bible from Greek into their language, and with mistakes. This native language of Cyril and Methodius was called Church Slavonic; it was the first Slavic in which the Bible could be read. And the Old Russian runic writing was destroyed with the adoption of Christianity.
              1. Flooding
                Flooding 30 November 2021 06: 25
                +1
                Quote: Konnick
                This native language of Cyril and Methodius was called Church Slavonic; it was the first Slavic in which the Bible could be read.

                you are wrong, it is usually called Old Church Slavonic.
                as well as Old Slavic, Old Church Slavonic, Old Bulgarian, etc.

                Church Slavonic is a later formation from Old Church Slavonic.

                Quote: Konnick
                They created their writing on the basis of their native language, not in someone else's.

                it is quite possible that Cyril and Methodius were Greeks.
                but in any case it is wrong to speak about the Salun dialect.
      2. Avior
        Avior 29 November 2021 22: 58
        -5
        I have a Soviet education, if that.
        Read on what book Lomonosov taught the grammar of the Russian language. Spoken Russian is the one described in Dahl's dictionary.
        1. Konnick
          Konnick 30 November 2021 01: 43
          +1
          Read on what book Lomonosov taught the grammar of the Russian language.

          He did not teach Smotritsky's grammar, but studied in order to write his "Russian Grammar".
          1. Avior
            Avior 30 November 2021 06: 34
            -4
            The "Gates of Learning" [31], in his own words, for him are "Grammar" by Melety Smotritsky, "Arithmetic" by LF Magnitsky, "Rhyme Psalter" by Simeon of Polotsk. At the age of fourteen, young Lomonosov wrote competently and clearly.

            It looked like this

            And when Lomonosov left his native place, he took with him
            Lomonosov took with him, in addition to his clothes (two shirts and a sheepskin coat), only Smotritsky's Grammar and Magnitsky's Arithmetic, presented to him by his neighbor.

            Mikhail Vasilyevich came from afar, even before the age of 14 he conceived to create a "Russian grammar"!
            1. Konnick
              Konnick 30 November 2021 06: 52
              +1
              Mikhail Vasilyevich came from afar, even before the age of 14 he conceived to create a "Russian grammar"!

              And even with such a neighbor ... a Greek Catholic. There are so many myths about the barefoot Lomonosov, it’s good at least they don’t tell jokes about Chapaev. And he did not create "Russian", namely the Russian grammar, where he divided the Russian language into three main dialects - Moscow, Pomor and Little Russian. Again, the point of view of a Ukrainian.
              1. Avior
                Avior 30 November 2021 09: 31
                -3
                Share the nemyth - what kind of grammar did Lomonosov use to study Russian?
                About the peculiarities of the name of the Russian - Russian - Russian language - were you told by it that these are different languages?
                And as for the grammar compiled by Lomonosov, did they not say that he put it on the basis of the Grammar of Smotritsky?
                Or were you told that he invented it from scratch?
  16. Luminman
    Luminman 29 November 2021 19: 43
    +5
    Quote: Avior
    if they wrote a text in the language of Dahl's dictionary, then many Russians would understand it poorly

    In the language of the Dahl dictionary, as you call this language, Pushkin wrote his tales and the children perfectly understood and loved him. Only the Raguli did not understand him, since childhood they owned only one language.
    1. Avior
      Avior 29 November 2021 23: 06
      -7
      Read Dahl's dictionary and compare it with Pushkin's vocabulary from his works. What you wrote could have been written by a person who had not read either Pushkin or Dahl.
  17. AML
    AML 29 November 2021 19: 58
    +11
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    Give the facts of "denial", if it does not bother you.


    Gogol is studied in the Ukrainian school in the section of foreign literature. Is that a sufficient fact?
    1. Astronomy
      Astronomy 29 November 2021 20: 27
      -7
      Quote: AML
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      Give the facts of "denial", if it does not bother you.


      Gogol is studied in the Ukrainian school in the section of foreign literature. Is that a sufficient fact?

      the fact of recognition of the fact that he wrote in Russian (and he, as ordered, translated into Ukrainian --- "Russian mova")
      Works in Russian do not automatically fall into the Ukrainian literature section (in Ukrainian there)
      There is a foreign course, where Russian.
      Costs of one state language. This did not make Gogol a foreigner. Like Sikorsky, for example (although three countries apply for him at once lol )
      1. AML
        AML 29 November 2021 20: 38
        +6
        Then it is not clear what Shevchenko is doing in Ukrainian literature. He wrote in Russian more than in Ukrainian.
        Pushkin into foreign literature. He also wrote in French.
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 29 November 2021 21: 45
          -1
          Quote: AML
          Pushkin into foreign literature. He also wrote in French

          that way you will write down all the nobles of that time in the French
        2. Avior
          Avior 29 November 2021 23: 20
          -6
          Under Shevchenko, and with his direct participation, the Ukrainian literary language was just emerging, so it is obvious that at that time it could not fully perform the functions of a written language.
          The final formation of the Ukrainian literary took place later, in the second half and towards the end of the 19th century, then it became possible to fully use Ukrainian as a written language. It is clear that neither Gogol nor Shevchenko could use him as a literary and written one - during their time he was not.
  18. seti
    seti 29 November 2021 20: 04
    +8
    What is the "Ukrainian culture" in the early 19th century .. ??? The author teach history.
    1. Carat
      Carat 29 November 2021 21: 21
      +3
      Well, yes. Taking into account the fact that no Ukraine even existed at the end of the 19th century.
  19. Xlor
    Xlor 29 November 2021 20: 22
    +4
    Quote: seti
    The author teach history.

    The author, in my opinion, before writing the "article", cleaned the pigsty. Or a toilet bowl somewhere in Poland ...
  20. grassyknollgunner
    grassyknollgunner 29 November 2021 20: 47
    0
    How did they get ...
  21. Silhouette
    Silhouette 29 November 2021 20: 50
    +6
    The father of the future great writer, Vasily Gogol-Yanovsky, also had an interest in literary activity and even wrote several comedies in Ukrainian. In addition, he was a good friend of Kotlyarovsky, the author of the poem "Aeneid" in Ukrainian "mov".

    Who and why released this Svidomo ignorance into the light? For him, Gogol-Yanovsky wrote in Ukrainian, and Kotlyarovsky in mov. So all the same in the language or in the Mov? This semi-literate Artemenko himself writes in mov, considering that in Russian. After all, Kotlyarovsky, not Kotlyarevsky, will be correct in Russian.
    Then he writes without hesitation:
    There is such a thing as diglossia, which means the coexistence of two languages ​​in one territory, which are used by their native speakers depending on a certain situation. For example, French and Russian coexisted in Russia: the first was used in high society and in business correspondence, and the second - in colloquial speech, mainly among the common people.

    Man has no idea what diglossia is. Mova is the everyday language of the lower class of Little Russia, or the dialect of the Russian language. Comparing it with French is simply stupid. However, this is in the tradition of the semi-literate Svidomites, who "taught and taught, but did not learn."
    Another pearl:
    [quoteThe formation of high Ukrainian culture had not yet ended, so it was simply impossible for Gogol to write serious works in his native language. ] [/ quote]
    What the fuck is "high Ukrainian culture"? ! Its formation has not ended to this day and will never end. And Gogol's native language was the language in which he wrote. It could not have been otherwise. What could be written in everyday language? "Aeneas Boov is a motor boy and a lad even where a Cossack"? Kotlyarovsky made a good joke on this issue.
    1. Luminman
      Luminman 29 November 2021 20: 54
      +3
      It's just stupid to compare it with French

      Why is it stupid? Ukraine is the second France! wink
      1. Sergey269
        Sergey269 29 November 2021 22: 18
        +4
        Why the second, offend! And who created France during the rest after digging the Black Sea, filling the Caucasus Mountains and inventing the wheel?
    2. Avior
      Avior 29 November 2021 23: 28
      -6
      The connoisseur can be seen from the very first lines
      Ivan Petrovich Kotlyarevsky (Russian pre-professor Ivan Petrovich Kotlyarevsky, Ukrainian Ivan Petrovich Kotlyarevsky

      Why did you rename Major Kotlyarevsky?
      https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Котляревский,_Иван_Петрович
      1. Silhouette
        Silhouette 30 November 2021 08: 10
        0
        It's not me. These are the rules for the formation of surnames on Polish territory in the Russian Empire. Kotlyar is a boiler-making master. Kotlyarov - Russified version. Kotlyarovsky is a noble version of the same. Kotlyarevsky is a Ukrainianized version of the Russian surname, a nationalist front.
        1. Avior
          Avior 30 November 2021 09: 52
          -2
          Major Kotlyarevsky himself did not even suspect that he was Kotlyarovsky until you made a discovery in linguistics in the 21st century.
          Like General Kotlyarevsky, he was also not in the know.
          Yes, and Alexander Sergeevich had no idea that he was writing illiterately in the epilogue to the Caucasian prisoner
          I will sing you, hero,
          Oh Kotlyarevsky, the scourge of the Caucasus!
          Wherever you rushed like a thunderstorm -
          Your move is like a black infection
          Ruined, negligible tribes ...

          Yes, in general, not only they, but two whole noble families of the Kotlyarevskys did not suspect that they were the Kotlyarovskys ...
  22. Sergey269
    Sergey269 29 November 2021 22: 09
    +3
    The formation of high Ukrainian culture had not yet ended, so it was simply impossible for Gogol to write serious works in his native language. He found consolation in St. Petersburg, where he discovered the interest of Russian society in Ukraine. This is somewhat paradoxical: the Russian elite had a negative attitude towards the Ukrainian language, but not towards the Ukrainian culture.

    Gippius explains that, on the one hand, Ukraine belonged to Russia, and on the other, it did not. Then it was more likely a neighbor, a blood relative, who at the same time was quite exotic, such a Slavic Italy, as it was perceived in St. Petersburg. This exoticism drew Russian society to Ukraine, beckoned to get to know it better and learn its features.
    [i] [/ i]

    Forgive me for ignorance, but explain how Mr. Gippius "generated" the term "Ukraine" at a time when such a "name" did not exist on the territory of the Russian Empire? Agent of Austria - Hungary turns out ... And the Author would not be bad to repeat the school program (for a start), study the history of Russian literature, and indeed the history of Russia in general.
  23. Hitriy Zhuk
    Hitriy Zhuk 29 November 2021 22: 31
    -1
    Quote: Flood
    gogol the British call goldeneye

    That about the bird (Bucephala clangula).

    About the little man:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Gogol
    ; Ukrainian: Mikola Vasilovich Gogol, romanized: Mykola Vasyl'ovych Hohol ';
  24. Hitriy Zhuk
    Hitriy Zhuk 29 November 2021 22: 33
    0
    Quote: Xlor
    he was an American inventor, so the American gentleman said

    I corrected it a little, otherwise you are a bit under-spoken.
  25. Moreno
    Moreno 29 November 2021 23: 45
    +1
    I reread all of Gogol's books, "from cover to cover." Very kind and sincere!
  26. Vale2000
    Vale2000 30 November 2021 00: 20
    -9
    The formation of high Ukrainian culture had not yet ended,
    I did not read further.
  27. Xlor
    Xlor 30 November 2021 05: 03
    0
    Quote: aleks neym_2
    a heavy aircraft, which for a long time had no analogues in the world, was built in Russia by the "American" engineer Igor Sikorsky

    "Ilya Muromets" was built by a Russian engineer, and the Sikorski helicopters are already American

    Quote: aleks neym_2
    Following your logic, the FAU missiles were created under the leadership of the "American" Wernher von Braun (SS officer), who later stood at the origins of the US space program.

    Just as in the first case, the FAU was created by a German engineer, and the space program was created by an American engineer. Following your logic, is Gogol, educated in Ukraine, a Ukrainian writer? Or Russian?
  28. Xlor
    Xlor 30 November 2021 05: 07
    0
    Quote: businessv
    if it weren’t he, then there would be no huge layer of culture in Little Russia

    Remind me, what is this "layer of culture" in Little Russia?
  29. Tagan
    Tagan 30 November 2021 05: 35
    -5
    Quote: Xlor
    Nobody says that Nikola Tesla was a Serbian inventor - he was an American inventor. And Sikorsky was not a Russian engineer, but an American ... Gogol did not write a single line in Ukrainian! What kind of carrier of Ukrainian culture is he to you?

    Ukrainian culture - purely mova and nothing more? Congratulations! Then everything is clear with the rest of the fabrications))
    It's funny to watch the Ukrainian patriots.
  30. Tagan
    Tagan 30 November 2021 06: 25
    -2
    Quote: Vale2000
    The formation of high Ukrainian culture had not yet ended,
    I did not read further.

    Yes, high Ukrainian culture sounds powerful!
    Well, nothing, peremoga is not far off. Progress in Ukraine is evident. So everything goes to the point that the dreams of sprazhnіkh Ukrainians about hollows and minks will soon come true and become an everyday occurrence, and not an object of envy.
    1. Vale2000
      Vale2000 30 November 2021 15: 09
      -4
      Quote: Tagan
      come true and become commonplace, and not an object of envy.

      Well, yes ... we are already frozen without the c.c.ap. gas)))
  31. Tagan
    Tagan 30 November 2021 15: 32
    0
    Quote: Vale2000
    Quote: Tagan
    come true and become commonplace, and not an object of envy.

    Well, yes ... we are already frozen without the c.c.ap. gas)))

    I'm embarrassed to ask, do you have any other gas? Well, or, like, mined domestically covers all needs, or can you tell a fairy tale about the reverse from the EU?
    Don't forget about the ember yet. Something like American anthracite. Yeah
    )))
  32. Egor53
    Egor53 30 November 2021 20: 21
    -2
    "The formation of high Ukrainian culture had not yet ended, so it was simply impossible for Gogol to write serious works in his native language."

    Well, what kind of look did you write that?

    The formation of high Ukrainian culture today is not something that "has not ended", but has not even begun. And it will never start.

    I know the dill perfectly, since the language is primitive and with a very small vocabulary.
    My relative (associate professor gynecologist) left Odessa (and it’s now Ukraine) after a sign "Pikhvolazka Voskresenska" was hung on her office.

    Gogol did not write a single line in Ukrainian - he is a great Russian writer.
  33. Egor53
    Egor53 30 November 2021 21: 18
    -2
    Ukrainian culture is a village culture (in Ukraine they say rural). It is extremely primitive, like any rural culture.
    The Ukrainian language is a dialect of Russian with the addition of about 2 thousand words from the Polish language. Ukrainian was spoken only in the villages. Ukrainian has never been spoken in any city of modern Ukraine.
    There is no literature in Ukrainian. The only exception is Taras Shevchenko - he really is a poet on the level of Akhmadulina. There is nothing else. If someone speaks to you about Lesya Ukrainka or Ivan Franko, then this is being said by people who have not read them.
    I was born and raised in Kiev, where no one spoke Ukrainian except the janitors.
  34. Kushka
    Kushka 30 November 2021 23: 06
    +1
    In give! Gathered 1.2.3 .... wow-100500 people and prove something.
    (I wonder who? Not Ukrainians, that's for sure. There are only one of them. That means to ourselves.)
    "Malorosiya", "Mova", "Ukraine has never existed", "the Ukrainian language does not exist"
    Who are you to yourself? Well, to your health!
    Let's leave the history before Gogol to Gogol.
    Since 1922 Ukraine was in the Soviet Union!
    My grandfather is UKRAINIAN, he lived under Zheltye Vody (patrimony of Father Makhno). Was born there
    in 1924 my father. After the Chernigov school he fought, reached Prague, deputy.
    battery commander, reserve officer. His military ID says UKRAINIAN.
    Mom was born near Vinnitsa in 1928 - UKRAINIAN, because of hunger, the family left for Donbass.
    From an early age she worked in a mine, Krasnoarmeyskoe (60 km from Donetsk) right up to marriage.
    (In those years, female labor in mines was common)
    Then the usual life of the wife of a garrison officer. I was born into the family of an officer
    artilleryman in Tiraspol, in the Red Barracks in 1952.
    I was drafted to the Baltic Fleet and my military ID says - UKRAINIAN.
    My four children, born from 1977 to 1988 - UKRAINIANS - so in SOVIET
    documents. It is clear that my four grandchildren are UKRAINIANS (sic).
    Although I studied at school (Russian, by the way) for a long time (I am 70 in March), I can still
    read a Ukrainian newspaper aloud in Russian and you won’t guess what kind of newspaper
    in my hands.
    WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? WITH WHOM ARE YOU TALKING?
    1. falconaft
      falconaft 3 January 2022 22: 00
      0
      They convince themselves. Psychotherapy is like that.