Military Review

Russia of the XIII century. What's scarier: a western or eastern threat

257

Diorama (detail) Battle on the Ice. Artist Evgeny Emelyanov. Exhibition: "History through the eyes of an artist. On the occasion of the 800th anniversary of the birth of Alexander Nevsky ”. Tretyakov Gallery. Moscow. Photo by the author


In the XII-XIII century. Russian principalities in the west bordered on various tribes, ethnic groups and states. These are, first of all, Estonians, Latvian, Lithuanian tribes, German knightly orders and the Scandinavian states. Hungary and Poland, participating in Russian strife, for the time being did not claim the Russian lands.

In the XNUMXth century, after the Mongol invasion, the struggle between the principalities and princes for "tables" in Russian cities, for tributes from neighboring tribes, went on, despite the pogrom perpetrated by the Tatars. It is difficult to say that the western neighbors decided to take advantage of the situations when there was a significant weakening of a number of Russian lands, although it was not without it.

It should be borne in mind that the Russian lands were "sovereign" states, interconnected by temporary allied ties. There was no "united Russia", as the historical school of B. Grekov, prevailing in the USSR, represented, as there was neither feudalism, nor feudal fragmentation, due to its still absence in the vastness of Eastern Europe. About which there is no evidence in the sources.

But the reasons for the pressure from the Scandinavians and the Germans had different roots and began long before the onset of the Mongol invasion.

It was not easy to cope with a direct or potential threat posed by our western neighbors during the XNUMXth century, and in some places even went on the offensive.

First. The cities of Western Russia bordered on Poland and Hungary, making campaigns for tribute against the Baltic tribes of the Yatvingians, Zhmudi and Lithuania, directly or indirectly becoming allies of the German crusaders.

Second. Coincidentally, at this time, from the end of the XII century. Lithuanian tribes entered the stage of tribal consolidation, which the East Slavic tribes underwent in the XNUMXth century. This stage corresponds to an active external expansion, which manifests itself, first of all, in the raids on neighboring, rather rich Russian and Polish lands, fighting against the orders (Livonian and Teutonic). Russian princes contacted the Lithuanian princes, using them as mercenaries, and Russian cities willingly invited warlike Lithuanian princes with their squads.

Thus, in the XIII century. the threat from Lithuania to the neighboring Russian principalities, of course, was, but it was actively stopped by the Russian princes, who significantly influenced the situation in Lithuania.

Third. In the XIII century. German military expansion in the Baltics was associated with the crusading movement.

Their first offensive in Central Europe was associated with the colonization of the Western Slavs, through their conversion to Christianity. Further, the object of the expansion of the crusaders was the Lithuanian tribes, at first the western ones, the Prussians. It is worth noting that often the orders of the crusaders came to the territory of their expansion with the support, at the request, or at least non-resistance of the Polish (as in the case of Prussia) and Russian (as in the case of the territory of modern Latvia and Riga) authorities.

By the time the warriors-missionaries arrived in these lands, some of the Baltic and Finnish tribes (modern Latvia) paid tribute to the city-state of Polotsk (modern Belarus) and Smolensk, and the Finnish tribes (eastern and central modern Estonia, the territory of modern Finland and the Karelian Isthmus ) - to Pskov and Novgorod.

It should be noted that, despite the outlined delimitation between the two Christian branches, very sharp contradictions were not observed in 1204 before the fall of the capital of Byzantium and the Orthodox center of the world - Constantinople. In the middle of the XII century. Byzantium still claimed the return of Rome under its control and formed its own union of Italian states.

The primitive system of exploitation with the collection of tribute, established by the ancient Russian principalities within the framework of their social system for the tribes of neighboring territories (Estonia, Latvia, Southern Finland), did not imply either the destruction of the tribal elite, nor the creation of outposts where the payment of tribute was carried out more or less regularly, but where tributes were paid personally to princes, they did not have the strength to organize any other system of government, except as punitive campaigns:

"For it is customary among Russian kings, when they conquer the pagans," the Chronicle of Livonia reported, "not to convert them to Christianity, but to force them to pay them tribute and money."

While the orders, and the Scandinavians, along with baptism, changed the structure of the colonized society in an early feudal manner.

I repeat, the East Slavic city-states were at the stage of a neighboring-territorial community, and feudalism was far enough here, in contrast to Western countries. Under the rule of the orders, the local population became a feudal-dependent peasantry; even, albeit partially, the local nobility fell into this category.

The German crusaders created a network of knightly castles to ensure the submission of the exploited population. Note that in the process of colonization, they used not only a sword, but also a carrot, for example, they made a grace period for payments of feudal rent, established fixed fees, in contrast to permanent tributes to Russian princes.

This movement of a more developed society, firstly, sharply weakened the economic positions of the Russians, first of all, Polotsk, Smolensk, and then Novgorod in the Baltics.
The pressure of the Western crusaders caused the process of consolidation of the Lithuanian tribes, which were at the stage of "military democracy", that is, the disintegration of the tribal structure, which, in turn, began active raids on the lands of neighboring Russian volosts.
In the end, after the conquest of the lands in the Baltic States, the crusaders also reached the borders of the Novgorod city-state. The borders, established in 1224, remain after the collapse of the USSR to this day.

At the same time, the Scandinavian states, which traditionally raided the lands of the Finno-Ugrians, took part in the aggression in this region, using the ideological motives of the baptism of pagans.

In the XIII century. clashes between bordering Russian lands and German orders were inevitable.

Historical analysis shows that it was not the planned "Drang nach Osten", and the term itself originated in the middle of the XNUMXth century. during the polemic of Polish and German publicists.


German helmet. Second half of the XNUMXth century The period of German expansion in Pomerania to the West Slavic lands. Pomerania. Museum of German History. Berlin. Germany. Photo by the author

It is important to note that a certain weakness of the Russian lands and the rather rapid transition of the lands of Russian tributaries under the rule of orders and bishops are associated with the fact that the Russian city-states, firstly, were at a stage when the capture of foreign regions did not seem to them a necessary goal when it was possible to get by with the receipt of permanent tribute, in contrast to the early feudal German orders, for which it was the acquisition of lands with a feudal-dependent population that was the natural and main goal - in fact.

So, the former Russian outpost in Estonia - Yuryev (modern Tartu) was taken by the sword-bearers long before the Mongol invasion: the first time - in 1212, the second - in 1224. The first economic blockade of Novgorod by the Western allies took place in 1229–1230. And the formal reason for the German invasions of the Pskov land was the kinship of Prince Vladimir Mstislavovich with the nobility of the Dorpat (Dorpat) bishopric and their claims to Pskov, first with the aim of returning the table to Vladimir's son Yaroslav, and then with the aim of subjugating Pskov directly.

The culmination of the expansion of the orders and the Scandinavians allied to them coincided with the Mongol-Tatar pogrom of the Russian lands in the 40s – 60s of the 1234th century, despite the fact that in XNUMX Yaroslav Vsevolodovich dealt a tangible blow to the Estonian sword-bearers in the Battle of Emajõge (Omovzhe).

These successes were not of fundamental importance, although they temporarily undermined the enemy's forces: a class feudal society acted against the sporadic actions of society during the period of the territorial community, the system of which had significant organizational and technological advantages.

From the point of view of European medieval society, the lands of the pagans were considered nobody's, the fact that the Russian principalities took tributes here was not taken into account.
A crusade against the pagans of Finland was announced in 1237. In this connection, ahead of all, the Swedes moved to the territory of Novgorod's tributaries - Izhora, a Finno-Ugric tribe that lived on the Neva River. In fact, it was a Swedish raid, since the young Alexander Yaroslavovich defeated the arriving invaders in the famous Battle of the Neva on July 22, 1240 by the forces of his own squad, with the support of some warriors from Novgorod and Ladoga, the participation of the entire Novgorod militia was not needed.


Sheathed sword. XIII century Pskov-Izborsk Museum Reserve. Photo by the author

The non-participation of the Novgorod militia (warriors) in the battle testifies to the insignificance of the arriving troops, otherwise it was not realistic to cope with them with the help of one squad.

Without underestimating the historical and political significance of the victory of Alexander, nicknamed after her - Nevsky, it should be understood that this was a local battle.

In 1241, within the framework of the baptismal concept of the same Izhora, powerful forces of the German order, with the support of one of the city parties, captured Pskov. This party in subsequent historiography was presented as traitors. Note that city-states and city parties often attracted outside forces.

Alexander Yaroslavovich with the squads of the north-east of Russia and the Novgorodians liberates Pskov from the German garrison, expels the Germans from the Izhora land, and gives battle on April 4, 1242 on the shores of Lake Peipsi.

This is the second victory of Alexander Yaroslavovich, which has become a symbol of the Russian weapons and victory over Western aggression. But this realization of this event happened later.

Let's pay attention to several important factors.

First, the Germans conquered the large Russian cities of Izborsk and Pskov for the first time, and the battle that followed after their expulsion was extremely important in itself.

Secondly, the Battle of Peipsi fits into the framework of the battles of the 1261th century. in the northwest of Russia. It is equal or even inferior to the victory of Father Alexander at the Battle of Emajig and is comparable to the Battle of Rakovor in XNUMX. But it cannot be spoken of as a battle that caused irreparable damage to the order.

The next major clash and battle took place in 1268 at Rokovor (the territory of modern Estonia), the German chroniclers, as always, exaggerated the number of soldiers from Russia, perhaps the Russian army was more numerous, but, of course, not many times. In Russian historiography, it is customary to consider the Russians as the winners, the German chronicle writes about their victory, there is no unequivocal opinion. The retaliatory campaign of the Germans and Danes to Pskov gave nothing.

Border clashes and border raids on both sides continued constantly and later, but by the end of the XNUMXth century. military pressure on the Russian borders is falling.

German crusaders and Danes were able to gain a foothold in the Baltic States, and neighboring Russian principalities stopped claiming tribute from those tribes that fell under the rule of aliens. The “brethren” were able to extend their influence and order to the tribes they baptized, but abandoned attempts to seize some of the border Russian lands. The crusaders were engaged in the establishment of feudal order in this territory.


Russian helmet. XIII-XIV centuries. Gorodetsky Historical and Art Museum Complex. Photo by the author

It is worth saying that even after the crusaders took the capital of Eastern Christianity, Constantinople in 1204, the clashes between the Russian principalities and their western neighbors, first of all, were in the nature of border wars for material resources, and not for faith. Although the motive of faith was present.

Without underestimating the significance of the military victories of Russian weapons and the subsequent propaganda (in a very good sense of the word) significance of these victories for the growth of the people's self-awareness, it should be noted that these threats in the XIII century. in no way can be compared with the Mongols.

The question of opposing the Mongols and Western invaders, or who was more terrible for Russia in the 1435th century, arose much later. He was significantly influenced by the fact that the Muslim Turks took Constantinople in XNUMX with his question, which is still open today: which is better - a turban or papal tiara, as well as subsequent clashes with Western neighbors during the period of Ivan the Terrible, when the canonization of Alexander Nevsky took place.

But such a dilemma in the XIII century. for the Russian lands was not. The military superiority of the Russians in the west and north-west of Russia was, if not absolute, then very obvious.


Clash between Russians and Tatars. XIII century. 1916. Artist Sergei Arkhipov. Military History Museum of Artillery. Engineering and communications troops. SPb. Photo by the author

Of course, under the conditions of the establishment of the Tatar-Mongol yoke, the loss of tribute from the Baltic and Finnish tribes was a significant problem for a number of Russian principalities, but this process, as we have seen, began long before the Mongol invasion: the Scandinavian, but especially German, crusaders were able to capture and to secure the lands of the Baltic states.

A different situation developed with the Tatar-Mongol invaders, whose military advantage was absolute.

Bibliography:
"Chronicle of Livonia" by Henry // Matuzov V. I., Nazarova E. L. Crusaders and Russia. End of the XII century. - 1270 M., 2002.
Matuzova V.I., Nazarova E.L. Crusaders and Russia, end of the 1270th century, 2002. Texts. Translation. Commentary - M., XNUMX.
Nesterenko A.N. Bishop Albert // VI. No. 2. 2015.
Razumovskaya L.V. Jan Douglash and the Battle of Grunwald. SPb, 2007.
Khrustalev D.G. Northern Crusaders. SPb. 2018.
Tsimbaev KN From the history of the concept "Drang nach Osten" // VI. No. 12. 2015.
Author:
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  1. nikvic46
    nikvic46 25 November 2021 06: 18
    -2
    This is on the one hand. On the other hand, the Tatar-Mongol yoke stole a quarter of a millennium from our civilization. And we had to catch up through the centuries, sending our scientists to study in Europe. Europe was not affected by this disaster. The breakthrough was made only after 1917, and the princes were also different. Even the middle son of Alexander Nevsky covered himself with shame. The author writes according to the instructions of some persons. It would be better to look into history.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 25 November 2021 06: 27
      +12
      Quote: nikvic46
      It would be better to look into history.

      Nikolay! The author knows the story much better than you. You have not seen so many books in your entire life, how many he read them!
      1. nikvic46
        nikvic46 25 November 2021 07: 56
        +4
        Vyacheslav. What I wrote to the author, I apologize. But I reject the alliance of all the princes during the invasion. There is no need to clean up history. In the future there were troubles, and this is largely due to the same princelings. Surkov called the people deep. We have had deep opposition at all times.
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 25 November 2021 08: 06
          +1
          Quote: nikvic46
          But I reject the alliance of all the princes during the invasion.

          This is yes, and there were reasons for that.
          1. nikvic46
            nikvic46 25 November 2021 09: 44
            +7
            Vyacheslav. What are the reasons? Only your own interests.
        2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 November 2021 12: 13
          +4
          Quote: nikvic46
          But I reject the alliance of all the princes during the invasion. There is no need to clean up history. In the future there were troubles, and this is largely due to the same princelings. Surkov called the people deep. We have had deep opposition at all times.

          Eduard refers directly to Grekov in his work. Which, in his works, mark the “sovereignty” of the sovereign princes of pre-Mongol Rus.
          So, when the Polotsk reign began to lose their lands, the rest of the Rurikovichs did not even "scratch themselves." It was the fragmentation of the estates that became the primary reason for the "inclinations" of the west to the east. Consolidation of the Russian princes to oppose the "crusades", only a threat to the "primordial Russian" lands and economic interests begins.
          Moreover, the contemporaries of those events also saw it! Nobody can say more beautiful than the Author of "The Lay of Igor's Campaign." Let him write about the Suzdal prince and threats from the south, but he does not change the essence.
          Socio-politically, the Russian principalities were lagging behind in the state development (or, as one of the respected comrades said, “we were younger”), and it was at this moment that the Tatar-Mongols entered the scene and we had nothing to oppose. If their invasion had happened in the time of Svyatoslav, then the "trip to the last sea" would not have taken place. The proto-state of Svyatoslav Igorevich, where each ryadovich also howl, ate the tumens of the Tatars and would ask for more
          In general, analyzing Edward's text, I see several points of application to the discussion, either deliberately left by the Author, or where, on the contrary, he tried to smooth the situation.
          I'm just curious if this was done on purpose or not.
          So let's wait.
          1. Daniil Konovalenko
            Daniil Konovalenko 25 November 2021 13: 07
            +1
            Let him write about the Suzdal prince
            And not Novgorod-Seversky? About the threat from the south, it was not so easy there either ... The very Igor about whom the Word wrote was an ally of Khan Konchak, whom he later went on a campaign. And Konchak himself entered into alliances with various Russian princes. Or such a joke, as the Grand Duke Svyatoslav called the Russian princes on a campaign against the Polovtsy in the spring of 1184. Many princes took part in it, including Igor. As soon as the Russian army went deeper into the steppe and began to approach the Polovtsian nomads, there was a quarrel between Igor and the Pereyaslavl prince Vladimir. Vladimir, refused to participate in the campaign and turned with his squad to plunder the Seversk lands , and Igor, in response, went to plunder the Pereyaslavl principality. As a result of the campaign against the Polovtsy, only the Russian land suffered. No matter how fiery speeches the chroniclers spoke about the need to fight the Polovtsian danger, no matter how ardently the Grand Duke of Kiev spoke for unity, there was no trust between the princes and they sometimes hated each other more than the Polovtsians.
          2. Usher
            Usher 27 November 2021 02: 36
            0
            The proto-state of Svyatoslav Igorevich, where each ryadovich also howl, ate the tumens of the Tatars and would ask for more
            do not make me laugh.
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 November 2021 09: 15
              -1
              Quote: Usher
              The proto-state of Svyatoslav Igorevich, where each ryadovich also howl, ate the tumens of the Tatars and would ask for more
              do not make me laugh.

              The author has already posted an article about the attempts of the "Mongols" to conquer the lands of the Vets (Vietnamese) at a similar stage in the disintegration of the tribal system.
              1. Usher
                Usher 28 November 2021 01: 19
                -1
                Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Quote: Usher
                The proto-state of Svyatoslav Igorevich, where each ryadovich also howl, ate the tumens of the Tatars and would ask for more
                do not make me laugh.

                The author has already posted an article about the attempts of the "Mongols" to conquer the lands of the Vets (Vietnamese) at a similar stage in the disintegration of the tribal system.

                do not confuse you with a finger. Where is Southeast Asia and what are the conditions, and Russia?
      2. Vend
        Vend 25 November 2021 09: 29
        +5
        Quote: kalibr
        Quote: nikvic46
        It would be better to look into history.

        Nikolay! The author knows the story much better than you. You have not seen so many books in your entire life, how many he read them!

        It doesn't matter how many books the author has read and he is a candidate of historical sciences or an academician. This is a matter of the historical point of view. And any historian will be looking for evidence confirming their historical predilections.
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          25 November 2021 10: 56
          +8
          And any historian will be looking for evidence confirming their historical predilections.

          Like any other person, when he is a subordinate - he scolds the bosses, becoming a boss, he spits on subordinates ???

          Historians, of course, cannot live in society and be free from society. But ... very important ... many historians (not all) tend to follow the sources they study. I also try to work like this, so my views coincide with the historical process that I am observing.
          I can say that on many issues, under the influence of new research or new "reading" (translation) of sources, my opinion has changed.
          Yours faithfully,
          Edward
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 November 2021 07: 28
      +4
      Quote: nikvic46
      The author writes on the instructions of some persons. It would be better to look into history.

      I'm afraid it's getting worse, Although I'm wondering what sources were you guided by when making your conclusions? Especially the "rabble" of the middle son of Alexander Nevsky? Curious about which (there are two of them Dmitry and Andrey)?
      About "looked into history" to the candidate of historical sciences, I "drum roll with the tail" !!!
      Now the truth about "custom muzzles"! Edward, in a neutral, literate, dry and accessible language, gave a modern squeeze of the view of Russian historians on a problematic issue. No hysteria, snot and soap bubbles. Moreover, it is very affordable and of high quality. Oh yes, who is the customer - the VO comrades, who indirectly and directly for several years asked Edward to highlight the state of the Russian principalities before the Tatar-Mongol invasion.
      About the lag "in development" of the Russian world, the Author has already answered. Read the comments on his earlier articles.
      Well, somewhere like that!
      Already dear, it is worth taking and reading books from the list of references under the article. I confess that I have been dabbling in this for three years. I have never regretted it, although I cannot read all the works cited by the Author!
      Well, lastly, thank you very much Edward. I have not yet made up my opinion on the article, as “that cat on the roof is not yet March, but it is not enough and it is not clear that I want to shout more about love or go home to eat”.
      P.s. I would begin and end your article with paragraphs that “this is how it is considered in the scientific world” or “the real view of Russian historians”!
      P.ss To your dear opponent, I made a mistake in the commentary above, if you know Istria at the level of the school curriculum, you will find it. Good luck!
      Sincerely, Vlad!
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 25 November 2021 07: 58
        +3
        I would start your article and end it with paragraphs that “this is how it is considered in the scientific world” or “the real view of Russian historians”!
        Usually such phrases are an invariable attribute of commentators working in the field of folk history. laughing
      2. Gardamir
        Gardamir 25 November 2021 08: 03
        +5
        It is curious that Dmitry and Andrey and Daniil
        1. vlad106
          vlad106 29 November 2021 20: 28
          +1
          "... First, the Germans captured the large Russian cities of Izborsk and Pskov for the first time, .."
          Cool! And competently ...
      3. nikvic46
        nikvic46 25 November 2021 09: 46
        +4
        Vladislav. Have you forgotten your youngest son Daniel?
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 November 2021 11: 41
          0
          Quote: nikvic46
          Vladislav. Have you forgotten your youngest son Daniel?

          In the thesis "the middle sons of Alexander Nevsky", Danil Alexandrovich the appanage prince of Moscow is the youngest of the brothers.
        2. LisKat2
          LisKat2 25 November 2021 15: 10
          +3
          I read about Daniel at Balashov's. I liked him: smart and without distortions
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 November 2021 16: 37
            +3
            Quote: LisKat2
            I read about Daniel at Balashov's. I liked him: smart and without distortions

            Balashov is a writer, not a historian. He has a lot of thought about Danil Alexandrovich and his sons.
            The historian primarily relies on sources or artifacts. Balashov, like Dumas, hung the picture on the nail of history. Yes, beautiful, but high quality, but the truth is somewhere in the middle. Well, his reviewers were "venerable", there is no way to take away.
            The fact that Danila Aleksandrovich was still a "bug" cannot be added.
      4. zenion
        zenion 1 December 2021 18: 13
        0
        Stalin all the time tried to drag Russia out of feudalism and he did not succeed, although the USSR slipped through three phases of development. Now feudalism continues in Russi. Feudalism is not a nuclear weapon, but a policy of governing the country and with other countries. Treating your people as conquered.
    3. Vend
      Vend 25 November 2021 09: 19
      +8
      There was no "united Russia", as the historical school of B. Grekov, prevailing in the USSR, represented, as there was neither feudalism, nor feudal fragmentation, due to its still absence in the vastness of Eastern Europe. About which there is no evidence in the sources.
      The author, the term feudal fragmentation is the armchair term of historians. Do you want them to write in the chronicles and annals that there was feudal fragmentation? laughing And in the annals there are indications of the fragmentation of Russia and the enmity of the prince.
      1. Daniil Konovalenko
        Daniil Konovalenko 25 November 2021 13: 12
        0
        And in the annals there are indications of the fragmentation of Russia and the enmity of the prince.
        For example, yes, the chronicle, in the Word about Igor's regiment, speaks of the fragmentation of Russia and the enmity of the princes. And the author's call, they say, the knzes of the Russian lands unite! In the PVL, the campaign of Prince Igor is spoken of very sparingly.
        1. Vend
          Vend 26 November 2021 09: 52
          +1
          Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
          And in the annals there are indications of the fragmentation of Russia and the enmity of the prince.
          For example, yes, the chronicle, in the Word about Igor's regiment, speaks of the fragmentation of Russia and the enmity of the princes. And the author's call, they say, the knzes of the Russian lands unite! In the PVL, the campaign of Prince Igor is spoken of very sparingly.

          Well, how sparingly, starting with the children of Svyatoslav Igorevich, the princely enmity is mentioned. But of course, the real fragmentation began after Yaroslav the Wise.
          1. Daniil Konovalenko
            Daniil Konovalenko 26 November 2021 10: 15
            +1
            They calmed down, not many for 50 years under Vladimir Monomakh, his son Mstislav ... And then, as if they broke off the chain ..
            1. Vend
              Vend 26 November 2021 15: 09
              +2
              Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
              They calmed down, not many for 50 years under Vladimir Monomakh, his son Mstislav ... And then, as if they broke off the chain ..

              There were many children, the ambitions of the prince were even greater, and there was little land. So they fought. And Russia suffered.
    4. Illanatol
      Illanatol 25 November 2021 09: 20
      +4
      Quote: nikvic46
      On the other hand, the Tatar-Mongol yoke stole a quarter of a millennium from our civilization.


      Even official historians admit that Russia took shape as a single state precisely thanks to the notorious "yoke".
      If it were not for the yoke, several states would have formed on the territory of Russia, which is entirely due to economics.
      Of course, these states would be smaller and weaker. Over time, they could well become the prey of their neighbors and be assimilated. As it happened, in particular, with Galicia-Volyn Rus, which became part of the Russian-Lithuanian principality, and later - into the Commonwealth. Well, how successfully these territories developed as part of, in principle, European states is fairly well known.
      So "tse Europe" still would not have happened, even without the "yoke".
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 25 November 2021 09: 37
        +4
        And I believe that RI is the heir to the Golden Horde. Thanks to her, in many ways, it took place
        1. Illanatol
          Illanatol 25 November 2021 09: 43
          +4
          RI is the "Petersburg Horde". The brainchild of androids, so to speak. laughing
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 25 November 2021 09: 59
            +1
            I'm talking about the territory))
      2. nikvic46
        nikvic46 25 November 2021 10: 02
        +1
        Anatoly. And which historians admit? How many churches, libraries and people were destroyed.? Correctly after they came to their senses. We started to unite. Someone benefits from making a convenient, sleek story, but history can avenge various inventions. The goal is clear. Make history under princes and kings white and fluffy. And the history of the USSR is black. Don't go to the doctor here either. The process started on TV.
        1. Daniil Konovalenko
          Daniil Konovalenko 25 November 2021 13: 18
          +2
          How many churches, libraries and people were destroyed.?
          Actually, the Tatar-Mongols tried not to touch the churches and good relations with the Orthodox Church, they did not encroach on church wealth, the church paid the same, did not call the people to unite, called the invasion God's punishment. , the church of God, without a twinge of conscience.
        2. Nazar
          Nazar 25 November 2021 13: 33
          +6
          nikvic46 - "churches and libraries" the second "Romanov" Alexei Mikhailovich destroyed more than the Mongols, moreover, they did something with him. what the Mongols were not capable of - they practically destroyed the Russian Orthodox Church, replacing it with a surrogate molded in the image and likeness of the Western OCs that fell under the Ottoman occupation.
          Look at what the "brothers Slavs" were able to create in the state-building business from those ancient times and to this day - look at all these Slovakia, Slovenia, northern Macedonia and other completely "sovereign" Montenegro - everything went to this among the Eastern Slavs. The imperial spirit, the impulse "to the last sea", this is the legacy of the empire of Genghis Khan, if we lose it, we will also lose a single country.
        3. Illanatol
          Illanatol 26 November 2021 08: 57
          +4
          How many churches, libraries and people were destroyed.?


          I have to upset you. Lawlessness was going on in Russia even before the Battle of Kalka.
          Who ruined Kiev so that it did not recover and lost the status of the capital city?
          Vladimir (Rus Vladimirskaya) became the new capital.
          Who practically destroyed the old Ryazan, so that the city had to be rebuilt in a new place?
          Again their own ...
          That era is quite an analogue of the Time of Troubles. Most of all Russian blood was shed by their own Russians.
          In fact, the Horde "covered" Russia. Yes, the Horde took the tax, but in return they defended the territory from the pressure of "Western partners". Some of the lands in the west could not be defended. So what? On the territory of the "forest ulus" of the Horde, a strong unified state of "loyal Russians" arose, and what - on the territories "liberated from the evil Tatars"?
          Wild pampas, there are many, many wild Banderlog wassat
    5. Bar1
      Bar1 25 November 2021 09: 44
      -8
      In the XII-XIII century. Russian principalities in the west bordered on various tribes, ethnic groups and states. These are, first of all, Estonians, Latvian, Lithuanian tribes, German knightly orders and the Scandinavian states


      in those days or close to those times, because radiocarbon dating of artifacts is the basis of modern chronology - there were definitely no tribes and ethnic groups.
      One of the reasons why I say this is mathematical approximation i.e. the extension of the demographic curve into the past, when the Baltic-Finnish peoples were 2-1.5 miles by the middle of the 20th century, when population censuses were carried out in the USSR, correlate with the point of the last tsarist census of 1897. If this line continues downward, then all these "ethnoses / peoples" simply physically disappear from the graphs and, accordingly, from history.
      Well, who were on these lands? On these lands, judging by the remaining names of the localities, the Russians lived, who were called differently.
      -Revel-Kolyvan is a purely Russian name.
      - Ests are generally Easterners from Western languages, so this name stuck to this new people after Western culture had taken root here.
      -Riga is the same Russian name.
      -Rezhitsa / Rezhekne is the city of the Latgalians-Rus tribe.
      -Memel / Neman-river Rusa
      -Keniksberg-Russian town Korolevets or Prusky. The Prussians are one of the Russian tribes.
      -Liepaja-Libava-Laba-Russian names, for example Elba is Laba or Chelyabinsk-che / se Laba is a city on the Laba.
      and so on, this is only what concerns large toponyms.

      In the XNUMXth century, after the Mongol invasion, the struggle between the principalities and princes for "tables" in Russian cities, for tributes from the neighboring tribes, went on, despite the pogrom perpetrated by the Tatars.



      Russian scientist historian Pyzhikov, historian from St. Petersburg Belousov believe that the Mongol-Tatars did not conquer Russia, but saved Russia from the crusades, since the Mongolotatars were related to the Russian tribes.

      The German crusaders created a network of knightly castles to ensure the submission of the exploited population. Note that in the process of colonization, they used not only a sword, but also a carrot, for example, they made a grace period for payments of feudal rent, established fixed fees, in contrast to permanent tributes to Russian princes.


      the historian Vaschenko is good.
      Keywords in this sentence
      -Permanent
      -fixed
      this is the same word, in Russian
      -constant
      then his whole phrase would lead to absurdity: "the Germans have a constant collection, but the Russians have a constant collection"
      This is the level of the material offered here by the reader.
      - "Out," said Ostap Bender, "the class of the game is not high."
      1. Illanatol
        Illanatol 26 November 2021 09: 04
        -2
        Quote: Bar1
        since the Mongolotatars were related to the Russian tribes.


        I have already expressed the point of view that the "Mongols-Tatars" are not a people, but a certain social group, a kind of "armed opposition" that arose as a response to forced Christianization and strong property stratification in the society of medieval Russia.
        By the way, we are not unique. For example, in the Czech Republic, a Hussite-Taborite movement arose under the leadership of Jan ižka. But they were dealt with quickly enough, although the Hussites managed to inflict several offensive defeats on the German knights.
        If the Hussites had existed longer, they could have formed their own likeness of the Horde.
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 26 November 2021 09: 09
          0
          Quote: Illanatol
          I have already expressed the point of view that the "Mongols-Tatars" are not a people, but a certain social group,


          for a social group, they were too numerous and too well armed. The Mongols made countries and built cities. Don't be fancy.
          Below I have cited a couple of videos by the historian Belousov about the Mongols, see.
          1. Illanatol
            Illanatol 26 November 2021 13: 13
            -1
            Quote: Bar1
            for a social group, they were too numerous and too well armed. The Mongols made countries and built cities. Don't be fancy.


            Too many - how much?
            Or do you seriously believe in the writings of recent official historians that the army of the "Mongol-Tatars" numbered hundreds of thousands of soldiers?
            Well, just like the millions of Xerxes from the opuses of Herodotus, yeah.

            I, at one time still a schoolboy, tried to calculate the number of armies that fought on the Kulikovo field, since the numbers of the "official" historians aroused distrust in me.
            According to my calculations, Dmitry had 15-20 thousand soldiers, Mamai - 25 thousand. Tokhtamysh had another 20 thousand.
            A lot of time passed, and, lo and behold, official historians began to give similar figures.
            So the Horde army was not so numerous. Batu led 25-30 thousand soldiers and this was quite enough, given that about the same number of people lived on the territory of the then Rus as in present-day St. Petersburg (3-4 million).

            The Mongols did not create any countries, simply because it was impossible. You can create a state, but not a country, do not confuse soft with warm.
            Real Mongols themselves will acquire statehood later, however, even the current Mongolia can be called a full-fledged state at a stretch, just like the Mongol - a full-fledged nation. They have their own writing appeared not so long ago, and even then with outside help.
            It is rather strange that a certain people, creating states on the side, did not create their own stable state. And after 3-4 centuries the "descendants of Genghis Khan" will be driven across the steppe with rags, allegedly destroyed by this Genghis Khan, the Manchus.
            And it is no less strange that the conquerors of half of the continent did not find themselves a better place to live than those in which they still live. The conditions are extreme, in winter it is as cold as in Antarctica.
            And it is not clear where the tribute, which the Mongols collected over the centuries from many peoples, went. As they were rogues, they remained. Even in comparison with the Buryat neighbors who have not conquered anyone.
            Such a turbulent period of history was not reflected in any way in the myths and legends of the Mongols. But how many countries have they supposedly seen, what an open space for creativity.
            Their genetics is also very homogeneous, which is not typical for the "imperial" people.

            As for the exploits of the "Mongol-Tatars" described in the chronicles ... and you are sure that we are talking about the same characters. They are called very differently there.
            Big lies can be obtained by combining several small truths together.
            Most likely, the Mongols were credited with other people's achievements, and they are glad. There was at least something great in their history. Take the myths about Genghis Khan away from them - what will remain?
            Empty place.
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 26 November 2021 14: 05
              0
              Quote: Illanatol
              Too many - how much?


              so much that would go through Russia, capture some cities and enter Europe, so much so that they would remember.

              Quote: Illanatol
              According to my calculations, Dmitry had 15-20 thousand soldiers, Mamai - 25 thousand. Tokhtamysh had another 20 thousand.


              so do not show your calculations?

              Quote: Illanatol
              Or do you seriously believe in the writings of recent official historians that the army of the "Mongol-Tatars" numbered hundreds of thousands of soldiers?


              hundreds of million

              Quote: Illanatol
              The Mongols did not create any countries, simply because it was impossible. You can create a state, but not a country, do not confuse soft with warm.


              here's another chicanist.
              The Mongols created the Golden Horde and built the cities of Khanbalik, Karakorum, Saray.
              It was of course done by "social groups"

              to watch the video, of course, they ignored it, you are probably a great specialist and teach you, only spoil it.
              1. Illanatol
                Illanatol 26 November 2021 14: 21
                -1
                Quote: Bar1
                so much to go through Russia, capture some cities and enter Europe, yes so


                And more specifically?


                Quote: Bar1
                The Mongols created the Golden Horde and built the cities of Khanbalik, Karakorum, Saray.


                The Mongols did not build anything and could not build anything. Even in our time they are not capable of building anything, only putting up yurts and grazing a cattle - all their talents.
                1. Bar1
                  Bar1 26 November 2021 15: 03
                  -1
                  Quote: Illanatol
                  The Mongols did not build anything and could not build anything. Even in our time they are not capable of building anything, only putting up yurts and grazing a cattle - all their talents.


                  you fell from the moon, do not confuse the current Mongol Mongolians and those Great Mongols.
                  -Mongols are Mon Gali i.e. upper Gali.

                  watch a movie
    6. Bar1
      Bar1 25 November 2021 10: 04
      -3
      the victory of father Alexander at the Battle of Emajig and is comparable to the battle of Rakovor in 1261


      Look how the historian Vaschenko tries. Even what has come down to us from this "story" with Russian names, he immediately translates into modern names
      -Emajõga is the Russian river Omovzha

      the battle of Rakovor in 1261


      all these names, when the Russian letter C in non-Russian languages ​​arbitrarily changes to any K or T or the letter U, and among non-Russians it is both U and A.
      -russian-ruthenium
      -russian-cancer
      -Kyprus-Cyprus
      -Epi_darus-Epirus / Epi_dar
      funny, local rules prohibit writing these words at all, this is the kind of censorship here.

      this can be traced, say, on old maps. In modern Syria / Iraq there is a city of Cancer, and on old maps the city was called Rasa or Rusa.
      These linguistic tricks are deliberately made to obscure the real picture of the past.
      1. Illanatol
        Illanatol 26 November 2021 09: 08
        -1
        Quote: Bar1

        These linguistic tricks are deliberately made to obscure the real picture of the past.


        There are no intentional tricks. The languages ​​of educated people were Greek and Latin. Where in Latin it is read as "C", in Greek - "K".

        Centaur - Centaurus
        Caesar - Caesar.
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 26 November 2021 09: 12
          -2
          Quote: Illanatol
          There are no intentional tricks. The languages ​​of educated people were Greek and Latin. Where in Latin it is read as "C", in Greek - "K".


          when the true meaning of a word is distorted with the help of another language, then this is just done intentionally and artificially.
          What restrictions of Latin are not allowed to pronounce correctly
          -Etruscans-Etrusia?
          why was it necessary to say etruria?
    7. Bar1
      Bar1 25 November 2021 10: 25
      -5
      First, the Germans conquered the large Russian cities of Izborsk and Pskov for the first time, and the battle that followed after their expulsion was extremely important in itself.


      All these pseudo-historical articles, which, within the framework of the OI, belittle the importance of the Russians and distort history, do not talk about the main thing. For example, the Battle of Segtun, when the Novgorod ushkuyniks captured the Swedish capital Segtuna and REMOVED the city gates and erected these gates in the city of Pskov.
      Then one frame-writer began to write about this battle, but suffered such a blizzard.
      Why don't you write Vaschenko how Alexander Nevsky went to smash the Swedes in Biarmia? Not in the know, or are you deliberately keeping silent?
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 25 November 2021 12: 44
        +8
        I put you a minus for each comment. Without much pleasure, so to speak, solely out of a sense of disgust. I am tired of refuting your nonsense, especially since you are writing this particular nonsense already, probably for the tenth time.
        But to emphasize your enchanting stupidity and equally enchanting ignorance, I will simply say that the church gates, called "Sigtuns" (although they have nothing to do with Sigtuna) are located in Novgorod.
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 25 November 2021 14: 48
          -4
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          I am tired of refuting your nonsense, especially since you are writing this particular nonsense already, probably for the tenth time.


          you would get out into the air from the stench of your illusions, then the "refutations" in your imagination may cease to be such. right now, Muscovites will attack nezalezhnuyu at once, not attackers? Well then tomorrow is exactly tomorrow "
        2. bubalik
          bubalik 25 November 2021 20: 23
          +1
          Trilobite Master
          Today, 13: 44
          ,,,Michael hi and you and Bar1 are not the same person smile belay ? ,,, when you read your disputes with Paul (if I'm not mistaken), it looks like Jekyll and Hyde smile
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 25 November 2021 20: 43
            +2
            Serge hi , by what method of calculation did you come to such a conclusion? bully
            I am in this era by zero, therefore I do not climb, but I would have listened to you. drinks
            1. bubalik
              bubalik 25 November 2021 21: 26
              +1
              I'm in this era for zeros
              ...I also smile if only about the submarines of the Second World War repeat ,,, about yesterday's article, and wanted to write: Tiesenhausen in 1940. trained with Kretschmer, first lieutenant.
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 26 November 2021 05: 53
                +2
                Kretschmer will not teach bad things. bully
          2. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 25 November 2021 23: 50
            +6
            This is how one careless phrase can acquire two fierce enemies at once, and from two opposite camps. smile Don't be, Sergei, you are a diplomat. No.
            Okay, I’m not touchy, but I don’t know how Bar will behave.
            And by the way, we have not been arguing for a long time, if what happened between us earlier can be called this word. So, we swear sluggishly, indicating our presence, nothing more. He hasn't said anything new for a long time, he repeats himself, but I don't want to repeat myself. That will reveal to us some more secrets of the universe, which we have not heard about - we will discuss in detail, as in the old days. With shouts, insults and profanity. In the meantime, he is eaten. So he blurted out about the Sigtun Gate, I noted. And nothing else is new.
            And my antipode on the site is rather the Operator.
        3. Usher
          Usher 27 November 2021 02: 41
          +2
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          I put you a minus for each comment. Without much pleasure, so to speak, solely out of a sense of disgust. I am tired of refuting your nonsense, especially since you are writing this particular nonsense already, probably for the tenth time.
          But to emphasize your enchanting stupidity and equally enchanting ignorance, I will simply say that the church gates, called "Sigtuns" (although they have nothing to do with Sigtuna) are located in Novgorod.

          He is not the tenth, as by magic it will come out as soon as an article about the Mongol-Tatars appears. For me, as a representative of the Mongolian-speaking people, and in general, if I say directly the Mongolian people, it’s just ridiculous to sometimes read nonsense and nonsense from Bar1 (in Mongolian, bar, it’s a tiger).
      2. Daniil Konovalenko
        Daniil Konovalenko 25 November 2021 13: 22
        +3
        Novgorod ushkuyniki captured the capital of Sweden Segtuna and REMOVED the city gates and erected these gates in the city of Pskov.
        Excuse me, it's strange somehow that the Novgorod ushkuiniks flooded into Sweden, removed the gates and for some reason put them in Pskov .. And why not in Novgorod? smile
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. Daniil Konovalenko
            Daniil Konovalenko 25 November 2021 16: 17
            +1
            All the same, explain why the gates that will be installed in Novgorod were installed in Pskov ... or is it the same city smile
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 25 November 2021 17: 10
              -5
              how boring you are, you must be a censor in the newspaper?
              1. Daniil Konovalenko
                Daniil Konovalenko 26 November 2021 07: 56
                +3
                There is no need to blame the mirror .. smile
              2. Usher
                Usher 27 November 2021 02: 42
                +1
                Quote: Bar1
                how boring you are, you must be a censor in the newspaper?

                transition to personalities, a sign of a narrow-minded mind) You were asked a question.
        2. Edward Vashchenko
          25 November 2021 16: 50
          +6
          they took down the gates and for some reason put them in Pskov .. And why not in Novgorod?

          good good good
        3. Zvonarev
          Zvonarev 26 November 2021 10: 50
          0
          Why? Apparently, they already stood there, from Constantinople at least ...
          1. fuxila
            fuxila 26 November 2021 18: 07
            +2
            Apparently, they already stood there, from Constantinople at least ...

            Yes, from Constantinople they stood on the north side, and on the east from Beijing, on the west from Tenochtitlan, and historians still argue about the southern gate: from Delhi or Canberra.
  2. Al_lexx
    Al_lexx 25 November 2021 06: 22
    +4
    I believe that for a country with such a territory, the message from above (about the article) is rather rhetorical.
    From the West - androids, from the East - insectoids.
    1. nikvic46
      nikvic46 25 November 2021 07: 57
      +3
      Alexey. Radish horseradish is not sweeter.
      1. Al_lexx
        Al_lexx 25 November 2021 14: 51
        +1
        I agree.
        This is the objective reality.
  3. kalibr
    kalibr 25 November 2021 06: 28
    +4
    Edward! My applause. Very good stuff in every way. And in terms of volume, ha ha. Which, alas, is often not observed here ...
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Edward Vashchenko
      25 November 2021 07: 12
      +8
      Good morning Vyacheslav Olegovich,
      Thank you!
      hi
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 25 November 2021 09: 39
        +2
        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
        Good morning Vyacheslav Olegovich,
        Thank you!
        hi

        Edward, good morning!
        There was no feudalism in Russia, was there a slave system?
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          25 November 2021 10: 32
          +4
          Good morning!
          In Russian scientific historiography there is such a view, it is most vividly presented in the works of Yushkov, an opponent of Grekov. one time adhered to A. Gorsky in the 70s of the twentieth century.
          I am a supporter of the fact that from the end of the XNUMXth century. there was a transition from a clan formation to a territorial-neighboring community, before the Mongol invasion it acquired clear contours.
          Slavery, of course, existed and existed practically until the formation of a class feudal society, when slaves became serfs.
          The transformation of serfs, simply dependent on the nobleman, into private property and "actual" slaves, is another story and, as I see it, took place within the framework of the strengthening of feudalism in the XNUMXth century.
          Yours faithfully,
          Edward
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 25 November 2021 10: 38
            0
            territorial-neighboring community

            And did they choose the leader at the veche?
            And to know - come from the command staff of the squad?
            1. Edward Vashchenko
              25 November 2021 11: 07
              +2
              A bit tricky, but to simplify, very close to it.
              hi
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 25 November 2021 11: 12
                0
                Quote: Edward Vashchenko
                A bit tricky, but to simplify, very close to it.
                hi

                Thanks for the answer, I have always been interested in the process of the emergence of hereditary elites. I would very much like to get acquainted with a scientific work of this kind.
                1. Edward Vashchenko
                  25 November 2021 11: 26
                  +3
                  These are very different works, since there is no fluff left of the tribal "elites", and in the sources there is not much about it at all.
                  The same "boyars" of the Russian princes of pre-Mongol Rus, little is known about them.
                  Another "Elite" is formed around the Moscow Grand Duke.
                  Then, in the course of the 16th and early 17th centuries, an almost complete change of "elites" took place again.
                  In the 18th century, a "new elite" was formed, which almost survived until the 20th century.
                  For work, I recommend Yanin V.L. Medieval Novgorod. M., 2004. Very interesting archaeological observations about boyar estates, as the elite of Novgorod, are very indicative!
                  About the 15th century. detailed analysis: Alekseev Yu. G. At the origins of the Russian state. SPB., 1999.
                  About the 16th century: Kobrin V.B. Oprichnina. Genealogy. Anthroponymy. M., 2004.
                  Yours faithfully,
                  Edward
                  1. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 25 November 2021 11: 29
                    +2
                    Thank you very much, I will definitely read it hi
            2. Mihaylov
              Mihaylov 25 November 2021 11: 39
              +1
              Quote: Krasnodar
              And to know - come from the command staff of the squad?

              Most likely, not only, apparently, its recruitment was not limited only to the squad, for example, probably, at least in part, the old clan nobility joined the new one.
              Here, of course, you need to take into account that then military affairs, as the reverse side of the coin, is inseparable from the "best people" of that time. Even the Novgorod ruler had his own regiment. hi
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 25 November 2021 12: 05
                0
                Greetings! hi
                Well, in principle, so, more or less, I imagine this to myself
    3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 November 2021 07: 36
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      And in terms of volume, ha ha. Which, alas, is often not observed here ...

      Vyacheslav Olegovich, maybe enough to lobby for the interests of "hamsters"! Personally, I don’t like “such volumes”, it is necessary at least to expand the work into a cycle of five articles! After all, an interesting and "tasty" topic, and so "flowed down the mustache, but the gate did not hit!"
      Otherwise, I completely agree with you, Edward is great!
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 25 November 2021 07: 48
        +1
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        maybe enough to lobby for the interests of "hamsters"!

        Dear Vladislav! They are people, too, and we must feel sorry for them (although we usually scold them!). But am I against the Edwardian cycle? On the contrary, I personally would only be glad if he did just that and followed your advice!
  4. parusnik
    parusnik 25 November 2021 06: 40
    +3
    Everything is quite logical
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 November 2021 07: 38
      +3
      Quote: parusnik
      Everything is quite logical

      Greetings Alexey, now the "hamsters" will wake up and tell us that "it was all wrong" !!!
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 25 November 2021 07: 49
        +4
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        "It was all wrong" !!!

        One has already woken up ...
      2. parusnik
        parusnik 25 November 2021 18: 01
        +3
        Good evening! hi Yes, I've already seen the migration of lemmings. smile
  5. Al_lexx
    Al_lexx 25 November 2021 06: 49
    .
    In general, the article is a rare nonsense.
    There was no Tatar-Mongol IGA. There was the baptism of Russia, which was very bloody.
    I love Pts Tarkovsky and the film "Andrei Rublev", my favorite. But none of this is true.
    The truth is that we are that Horde and everything was mixed up there. And baptism took place through lashes and fire.
    With that we live.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 25 November 2021 07: 14
      +7
      Quote: Al_lexx
      There was no Tatar-Mongol IGA

      Well, this is a fashion trend now. And also Ermak was Cortes, and in 1812 an atomic bomb was dropped on Moscow, which is why it burned down. This is all TRUE, and the rest was written by vile historians in a conspiracy since the time of Karamzin. So this is a conspiracy and passed from fathers to son !!!
      1. Illanatol
        Illanatol 25 November 2021 09: 47
        -7
        Quote: kalibr
        Well, this is a fashion trend now.


        But it is rather difficult to explain why the peak of the construction of churches and cathedrals fell on the time of the notorious "Yoke".
        And that the pagans who worship the god of war, Sulde, loved the Christian church so much that they endowed it with advantageous privileges?
        Even official historians in our time are reconsidering the relationship between the Horde and Russia, admitting that they were not as unambiguous as in the "historical novels" of the recent past.
        1. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 25 November 2021 10: 00
          +6
          Quote: Illanatol
          But it is rather difficult to explain why the peak of the construction of churches and cathedrals fell on the time of the notorious "Yoke".

          It is possible to clarify this place in more detail: what was the peak of construction during the yoke?
          Thank you
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 25 November 2021 12: 08
            +2
            Quote: Mihaylov
            why the peak of the construction of churches and cathedrals came at the time of the notorious "Yoke".

            I can't say that it was a "peak". But if so, then it is easy to explain. By building churches, they tried to appease God, so that he would avert punishment in the face of the Basurman. For sins, after all, Gogs and Magogs were sent against us, and there is no sin that would not be expiated by fasting and prayer!
            1. Mihaylov
              Mihaylov 25 November 2021 12: 14
              +6
              Quote: kalibr
              I can't say that it was a "peak".

              At least, stone construction stopped for 100 years, when they tried to build the first stone Assumption Cathedral in Moscow, it collapsed, Italian craftsmen had to be subscribed. It's still spelled out in the school textbook.
              For sins, after all, Gogs and Magogs were sent against us, and there is no sin that would not be expiated by fasting and prayer!

              This is the pure truth, this is how the Tatars were perceived in Russia! hi
              1. Illanatol
                Illanatol 26 November 2021 09: 14
                -2
                Quote: Mihaylov

                This is the pure truth, this is how the Tatars were perceived in Russia! hi


                But the Orthodox priests regularly served prayers, asking God to grant victory to the Tatar arms.
                Well, still, the ROC has pretty much rounded up its capital during the "yoke", thanks to tax preferences.
                So the ROC had a rather warm relationship with the "Gogami-Magogi".
                1. kalibr
                  kalibr 26 November 2021 11: 10
                  +1
                  Quote: Illanatol
                  So the ROC had a rather warm relationship with the "Gogami-Magogi".

                  Because there is NO POWER AS SOLE AS FROM GOD! RISE TO GOVERNMENT - ESI TAKEN INTO GOD!
                  1. Illanatol
                    Illanatol 26 November 2021 13: 20
                    -4
                    A very comfortable position.
                    It is very characteristic of our priests. And such a church is a real find for the invaders.

                    H'm. According to official historians and the "party line" Sergius of Radonezh gave his blessing to Dmitry Donskoy for the battle with Mamai, who seized power in the Horde (hardly against God's will, right?)
                    Sergius and Dmitry rebelled against the higher will, so it turns out?
                    1. kalibr
                      kalibr 26 November 2021 16: 12
                      +1
                      Quote: Illanatol
                      Sergius and Dmitry rebelled against the higher will, so it turns out?

                      Mamai was a usurper. Not Chingizid!
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 November 2021 12: 20
            +1
            Quote: Mihaylov
            Quote: Illanatol
            But it is rather difficult to explain why the peak of the construction of churches and cathedrals fell on the time of the notorious "Yoke".

            It is possible to clarify this place in more detail: what was the peak of construction during the yoke?
            Thank you

            Well, you can’t do this "in one paragraph down your throat and into the river" !!!
            1. Mihaylov
              Mihaylov 25 November 2021 12: 30
              +1
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              Well, you can’t do this "in one paragraph down your throat and into the river" !!!

              Vladislav, according to the classics - into the well! drinks
        2. kalibr
          kalibr 25 November 2021 12: 05
          +1
          Quote: Illanatol
          they were not so straightforward

          Yes. Everything is correct. But they WERE!
          1. Illanatol
            Illanatol 26 November 2021 09: 25
            -3
            And if they did not exist at all, would the Russians have entered the era of "general prosperity"?
            Our story was not white and fluffy even after getting rid of the "evil Tatars", alas.
        3. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 25 November 2021 12: 47
          +5
          Quote: Illanatol
          it is difficult to explain why the peak of the construction of churches and cathedrals fell on the time of the notorious "Yoke".

          Very hard. Moreover, there was no "peak", but there was a real decline.
          Half a century after the invasion, no stone temples were built at all, then, what was built, everything collapsed (the pre-Mongol temples are standing).
          1. Edward Vashchenko
            25 November 2021 13: 41
            +5
            I wanted to support Sergei and Mikhail!
            Yes, the peak of construction took place in the XNUMXth century, supporters of the territorial community explain this by the fact that, after the "city-state" was isolated, the need arose to create their own places of worship.
            hence the inexplicable curse at the churches of Kiev, when it was taken by the northern warriors of the 12th, early 13th centuries: the destruction of the shrines of the hostile community.
            A . Gorsky made statistics on the restoration of cities after the invasion, except for the Northeast, it is depressing.
            Yours faithfully,
            Edward
          2. Illanatol
            Illanatol 26 November 2021 09: 34
            -3
            Are you sure this is the correct indicator?
            Stone, wood ... what's the difference?
            The peak was not in architectural delights, but in the availability of these objects of worship for the population.
            In fact, in pre-Mongol times, the Christianization of Rus was superficial. Baptism is not enough to become a Christian. Like, they baptized the population - and everyone became Christians, ceasing to be pagans.
            Как бы не так.
            A true Christian is one who observes rituals, regularly attends services and sermons, and goes to confession. Such real ones are also called "ecumenical".
            In the current Russian Federation, there are 15 percent of them, according to the Russian Orthodox Church.
            The overwhelming majority were deprived of the opportunity to do this. What is the difference between a Russian village and a village, in the course? There were much fewer villages than villages.
            In the era of the Yoke, when the Horde supported the Russian Orthodox Church in every possible way (religion is the opium for the people, which contributes to its loyalty), there are more true Christians, also due to the greater availability of religious objects.
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 26 November 2021 10: 31
              +1
              I don’t know on the basis of what data you are talking about the growth of the number of churches and I don’t understand which ones you are making on the basis of these, in my opinion, incorrect premises.
              But I’ll give you one thought for pondering.
              It is not difficult to build a church, especially a wooden one. You can build them in hundreds and thousands. The question is who will serve in them. And if there is no priest, the church is not needed either. Tell me - where could a large number of ordained priests come from in Russia after the arrival of the Mongols?
              If, as you say, there was a "peak" of construction, then there must also be a peak in the growth of the number of clergy. Who prepared them? Where did they come from?
              1. Illanatol
                Illanatol 26 November 2021 13: 39
                -3
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Tell me - where could a large number of ordained priests come from in Russia after the arrival of the Mongols?
                If, as you say, there was a "peak" of construction, then there must also be a peak in the growth of the number of clergy. Who prepared them? Where did they come from?


                And this is the right question.
                If the "Mongols" came from Mongolia - nowhere.
                But if the "Golden Horde" is in fact the "Golden Order" - then everything falls into place.
                The yoke came to us from the West, in fact it was a semblance of the Crusade.
                But the "Western partners" took into account their previous mistakes and relied more not so much on their brute military force, but on the manipulation of the local "armed opposition" ... as, by the way, it was at the beginning of the 17th century.
                Of course, after the completion of the actual military campaign, they began to carry out their own Christianization, to promote their version of Christianity, which can be called "Uniate", a kind of hybrid of Byzantine and Catholicism.
                Since that time, we have had a lot of "Latinisms" in church vocabulary. Although Nikon's reform made it possible to get rid of most of them. This historical episode was unpleasant for our ruling elite, so it was rewritten in accordance with the general line.
                The present yoke, however, did not last long. The local "Horde" quickly got out of the control of the crusaders (like the Afghan Taliban - out of the control of the Yankees) and began to rule according to their own mind.
                This is how the Rus-Horde state symbiosis arose. Rus - "logistic support", Horde - "Armed Forces".

                Capital of the Mongol Empire - Karakorum
                The word can be easily divided into two parts. "Kara" - "dark", "evil", "Rum" - Rome. This is Turkic. The Türks called all Europeans "Rumians".
                In short, Karakorum = Constantinople. As you know, the crusaders ruled there for a while.
                This is where the Russian princes drove tribute for some time and went for the "label".
                The word "label" is not of Mongolian origin, which is typical. Comes from the Scandinavian "jarl" (appanage prince). When applied to the "Grand Duke", it has a clearly derogatory connotation. As if the army general was called a colonel. I doubt that the steppe inhabitants of the Mongolian steppes were aware of such lexical subtleties. But the Catholic warriors-monks - quite.
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 26 November 2021 14: 45
                  +3
                  Where are you going to get to the sources? Chronicles, chronicles, other documents, such as the correspondence between the Mongol khan and the French king?
                  Are all fakes?
                  Then there is no point in arguing with you, excuse me.
                  I will only draw your attention to the fact that you, relying on the thesis, the falsehood of which I personally have no doubts about (the increase in the number of religious buildings after the Mongol invasion), are making completely unthinkable conclusions that contradict both historical documents and archeology and other related historical disciplines.
                  Your linguistic constructions, completely in the style of Fomenko and his associates, are simply depressing. If you practice such experiments, you need interlocutors and opponents of the Bar level, once again I apologize.
        4. Usher
          Usher 27 November 2021 02: 49
          0
          Quote: Illanatol
          Quote: kalibr
          Well, this is a fashion trend now.


          But it is rather difficult to explain why the peak of the construction of churches and cathedrals fell on the time of the notorious "Yoke".
          And that the pagans who worship the god of war, Sulde, loved the Christian church so much that they endowed it with advantageous privileges?
          Even official historians in our time are reconsidering the relationship between the Horde and Russia, admitting that they were not as unambiguous as in the "historical novels" of the recent past.

          Mongols at the time of the "western campaign" were part of the shamanists (Tengrianism), Christians (Nestorians). Tengri was worshiped. Sulde was not worshiped as we understand it. It was a symbol.
      2. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 25 November 2021 09: 48
        +6
        Quote: kalibr
        Quote: Al_lexx
        There was no Tatar-Mongol IGA

        Well, this is a fashion trend now. And also Ermak was Cortes, and in 1812 an atomic bomb was dropped on Moscow, which is why it burned down. This is all TRUE, and the rest was written by vile historians in a conspiracy since the time of Karamzin. So this is a conspiracy and passed from fathers to son !!!

        Good morning, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
        You have not bothered to familiarize yourself with the works of Hyperborean historians in the Asgardian library of Atlantis and the wonderful comments to them by Kunislav Perunovich Tor-Makosh, head of the research institute at the history department of Leli University (Second Moon, for the ignorant).
        And if on business - Europe would have torn apart the Russian territories, like an agricultural appendage. My IMHO. hi
      3. Bar1
        Bar1 25 November 2021 10: 54
        -1
        Quote: kalibr
        This is all TRUE, and everything else was written by vile historians in a conspiracy since the time of Karamzin


        why Karamzin? Not Karamzin, but Baerashloceramilera, that's right.
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 25 November 2021 12: 09
          0
          Quote: Bar1
          Not Karamzin, but Baerashloceramilera,

          Well, yes - he took the baton from them and commanded all subsequent historians to continue this way ...
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 25 November 2021 12: 27
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            Well, yes - he took the baton from them and commanded all subsequent historians to continue this way ...

            I'm wondering, Vyacheslav Olegovich, of these comrades who:
            baeraschloceramilera
            - have at least one read them? hi
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 25 November 2021 12: 51
              +4
              Quote: Mihaylov
              at least one read them?

              No. I asked. Just as you have not read everything that relates to "office history". They read only Fomenko, Nosovsky, Petukhov, the more advanced ones - Klyosov. According to their own writings, they judge the historical science, which is denied.
              1. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 25 November 2021 12: 57
                +2
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                No. I asked.

                I suspected that, Mikhail. By the way, I found "Nestor" Schletser in the internet, he is there: those who wish can get acquainted hi
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 25 November 2021 13: 16
                  +3
                  I just grappled with one Fomenkoid. He told me that Fomenko was the only one to decipher the Bayeux carpet. It became interesting, I found this transcript. I read and whinnied loudly. The son even came running, wondered why dad was so intoxicated. I gave it to him to read. He grunted, said "idiots" and left to write an essay or report to do, in short, study. I presented my impressions the next day. So far, no feedback has been received from the customer. laughing
                  1. Mihaylov
                    Mihaylov 25 November 2021 13: 38
                    0
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    I read and laughed out loud

                    Michael, acquaint us too, at least we will laugh. wassat
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 25 November 2021 13: 45
                      +2
                      My profile has comments for yesterday.
                      There, in fact, I approached the analysis without humor (I promised the customer smile ), but there it is impossible without humor. wassat
                      The source material can be viewed, for example, here.
                      https://novejshaaj.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=1053&p=3
                      1. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 25 November 2021 14: 05
                        +2
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        My profile has comments for yesterday.

                        Thank you Mikhail, they made me laugh! wassat
                        While reading, I thought: what is the "good historical method" - what is the name of this test, when a psychologist shows pictures and asks what the patient sees on them?
                        You show the drawings from the carpet from Bayeux and write them down, it is only advisable to take the appropriate patient so that his visions are more fun! drinks
                      2. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 25 November 2021 14: 56
                        0
                        There, and reasoning is extremely valuable. About Sagittarius and Mercury, both for me and Zadornov is resting. One thing I can’t understand - how can this nonsense be taken seriously?
                      3. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 25 November 2021 15: 11
                        +1
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        One thing I can’t understand - how can this nonsense be taken seriously?

                        So after all, this phenomenon has been known for millennia: you need to stand on the square / climb a pillar / sit in a pit (underline the necessary) and start broadcasting something intelligible or, on the contrary, extremely unintelligible. And fans will definitely appear, if only the authorities do not hurry up and immediately stop this activity.
                        Now it has spread to the secular area, there has been a secularization of this phenomenon, so to speak. Therefore, someone believes in "God Kuzyu", and someone in the Scytho-Aryans. The key concept here is to believe. hi
                      4. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 25 November 2021 15: 51
                        +2
                        that is, it does not matter how to motivate your theses, the main thing is that they are liked by their content. It's clear.
                        If I say that the Slavs are the descendants of the gods, the Russians are the elite of the Slavs, and all the rest are just grease for the wheels of history, I can motivate such conclusions as I like, this does not interest anyone - the main conclusion is sunk into the soul, to understand why I am it did no one else will.
                        Then the question is. Is there a conditional "threshold of idiocy" when even a believer can lose faith? That is, I recruited a certain flock with my ideas, but my argumentation in defense of these ideas (ideas are constant, the form of presentation also does not change) is gradually slipping into complete delirium, contradictory and incoherent - will ALL my adherents leave me, or will there always be someone- then ready to cross any threshold?
                        And another question: the form of presenting ideas certainly matters too. What more influences the assimilation of these ideas by the masses - form or content?
                        Something brought me to the wrong place. smile
                        It's just that I just can't understand these Novokhronolozhites and others.
                        Maybe well they nafig?
                        Let them reproduce, multiply, including here, form their herds, herds, and we will milk them, shear and guide them ... For our age, there are still enough smart people for communication, and let the children take care of themselves. Maybe so?
                      5. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 25 November 2021 16: 09
                        +3
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        Then the question is. Is there a conditional "threshold of idiocy" when even a believer can lose faith?

                        It seems to me, Mikhail, that there is a certain "lifespan" of such a phenomenon: remember the end of the 80s - the beginning of the 90s: there was nowhere to go from the "Gumilevites" and where are they now? probably, of course, a certain amount will still be found, but these are already residual relics. I think that soon enough we will also remember the Novochronolozhians as a "fact of historiography." But new ones will appear. hi
                        Will ALL my adepts leave me, or will there always be someone ready to cross any threshold?
                        I think that most of them will leave, they will be caught in the network by a new, more charismatic and energetic one, but some small part will apparently remain forever, they have found themselves and are comfortable.
                        It's just that I just can't understand these Novokhronolozhites and others.
                        Maybe well they nafig?

                        Maybe - yes! these phenomena are passing, and History is eternal! Sorry for the banality! drinks
                      6. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 25 November 2021 16: 42
                        +3
                        The trouble is not that there is Fomenko. The trouble is that for him there is a nutrient medium, which, moreover, reproduces itself.
                        Fomenko is a yeast in a village outhouse. If you do not sprinkle it with lime, it will climb from all the cracks.
                        So I think - to sprinkle or leave it as it is?
                      7. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 25 November 2021 17: 44
                        +1
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        And another question: the form of presenting ideas certainly matters too. What more influences the assimilation of these ideas by the masses - form or content?

                        I thought about your question. I suppose - the form, because the content, as a rule, does not stand up to any criticism, but as it turns out, it is often not so important. hi
                      8. Usher
                        Usher 27 November 2021 02: 59
                        0
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        My profile has comments for yesterday.
                        There, in fact, I approached the analysis without humor (I promised the customer smile ), but there it is impossible without humor. wassat
                        The source material can be viewed, for example, here.
                        https://novejshaaj.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=1053&p=3

                        I noticed that these alternatively gifted, that in history, that in politics (Ukraine) some one style, they write in the language of half-truths, a lot of footnotes, dates and incomprehensible foreign words. Pretentious turns, and between the lines and words pushing nonsense with such a stone face that it seems so necessary. For example, if modern alternatives were describing the battleship "dreadnought": it was built in England at the beginning of the 300th century (Roman numerals are required, for weight), John Fisher's concept of all-big-guns was embodied (names are also required), etc. and then between the lines, would indicate the length of XNUMX meters (this is an example). The alternative people would immediately take their word for it. Like, well, England, XX century, all-bif-guns, John Fisher. This is how alternative history works. And this Timur Bar just dumps tons of garbage with a bunch of dates and terms to create the illusion of truth. Really got it.
                      9. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 27 November 2021 09: 30
                        0
                        Authors of folk history use many methods of manipulation. Some are intuitive, others consciously, it does not change the essence. Fomenko, for example, likes to do this: deduces a dubious assumption, specifying it with the words "possibly", "probably", "we can assume that", but in the next paragraph there is a reference to the same thesis, but with a proviso like "as we have established "," as is clear from the previous paragraph ", etc.
                        Many, alas, have enough.
                      10. Usher
                        Usher 28 November 2021 01: 21
                        0
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        Authors of folk history use many methods of manipulation. Some are intuitive, others consciously, it does not change the essence. Fomenko, for example, likes to do this: deduces a dubious assumption, specifying it with the words "possibly", "probably", "we can assume that", but in the next paragraph there is a reference to the same thesis, but with a proviso like "as we have established "," as is clear from the previous paragraph ", etc.
                        Many, alas, have enough.

                        Now, not in the eyebrow, but in the eye!
                  2. The comment was deleted.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
              2. Bar1
                Bar1 25 November 2021 14: 35
                -1
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                No. I asked. As you have not read everything that relates to the "ofhistory

                Quote: Trilobite Master
                No. I asked. As you have not read everything that relates to the "ofhistory


                Well, you’re lying, as usual, I have already quoted a quote from Gerard Miller's “On the peoples who have lived in Russia since ancient times”.



                Russophobe false historian Miller in all its glory, by the way is very similar to Gundyaev or vice versa.
            2. kalibr
              kalibr 26 November 2021 06: 43
              +1
              Quote: Mihaylov
              at least one read them?

              Why do you think the fable "The Pig under the Oak" would appear?
        2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 November 2021 12: 26
          +1
          Timur, and you know that the majority of modern historians "History of the Russian State" Karamzin criticize quite seriously!
          I really like S. Vivovatenko's phrase “everything was far from being like that”!
          So, criticizing and scolding Karamzin, maybe it is worth familiarizing yourself with the works of Fortyanov or Grekov?
          To be honest, the habit of insulting people like they died several centuries ago is extremely infuriating.
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 25 November 2021 14: 39
            -1
            why are you mad? Read Miller and you will find out that he is a liar, a chatterbox and a laugh, and got the right look from Lomonosov.
      4. Illanatol
        Illanatol 26 November 2021 10: 08
        +1
        A bit of trolling.

        An excerpt from a school textbook on the History of Russia, published in the XXX century.

        “On the whole, the example of the Russian Empire is a brilliant example of the beneficial influence of the European civilizational core on the peripheral countries. Thanks to the cultural influence of Europe, Russia achieved by the beginning of the twentieth century considerable achievements in the economy, science and culture.
        However, the quite successful development of this state was forcibly interrupted by the invasion of a barbarian tribe known as the "Bolsheviks" or "Communists".
        The origin of these invaders is still not entirely clear. It is known, however, that the first khan of the Bolshevik Horde, Ulyanov-Lenin, had Kalmyk roots. It is quite logical to assume that the original habitat of the "Bolsheviks" tribe was in the Volga region.
        Some irresponsible "pop historians" insist on the Western origins of the "Communist Yoke". They refer to such "historical documents" as Capital and the Communist Manifesto. Although it is quite obvious that these "documents" are a gross falsification. It is generally accepted that Western Civilization originally rested on a solid foundation of Freedom, Democracy and the Sacred Right of Private Property.
        It's just amazing how tenacious the so-called. "Fomenkovschina"!

        After the seizure of the territory of the Russian Empire by the "Bolsheviks", most of the original population was physically destroyed. The surviving part of the "Russians" was exiled to the so-called. "Gulag Archipelago". Its exact location is still unknown, but there is reason to believe that it was located at the mouth of the r. Kolyma.
        The civilized West could not look calmly at such a large-scale tragedy. The armies of the West rallied around a strong, charismatic leader, Adolf Hitler, to free Russia from the Bolshevik yoke.
        Hitler, of course, was normal. One of the elite units of his crusader army was called the "Viking SS Division".

        However, the Bolshevik Horde managed to repel the Crusade and even go over to the counteroffensive, establishing temporary control of their Horde over the eastern part of Europe.
        The power of the Communist Horde became even stronger. Unbelievable, but true - the Horde were the first to enter near-earth space.
        However, then the Communist Horde collapsed, and quickly. The Horde Bolsheviks died out, the empty territory was re-populated by the "Russians", leaving the Gulag Archipelago. But they did not manage to reach the previous level of development and prosperity. Perhaps the hindrance was the raids of new nomadic tribes known as "migrants" and "guest workers".
        On the whole, for mankind, the collapse of the Communist Horde has become an unconditional blessing.
        The practical implementation on a global scale of the bright ideals of Eugenics and Transhumanism has become possible.
    2. Daniil Konovalenko
      Daniil Konovalenko 25 November 2021 13: 25
      +1
      There was the baptism of Russia, which was very bloody ..
      that is, the baptism of Russia took place much later? All the chronicles lie?
      1. Illanatol
        Illanatol 26 November 2021 09: 42
        +1
        Do you think everyone so willingly accepted the new religion, the religion of yesterday's enemies?
        Especially the military class, which previously fought with the Byzantines.
        And what does "baptism" mean?
        A priest came to the village, performed an incomprehensible ceremony and left. More of this priest in the village and did not see. The locals, after scratching their heads, after the "Jordan", returned to their old, completely pagan way of life.
        That's all for you "the baptism of Rus".
        The pagans were called "filthy". This word comes from "paganos" - rural, rustic. That is, the villagers are like pagans, and the rural ones are 90 percent of the population.
        Christian cities were, islets in the pagan sea.
        And so it was not only with us. But it is not customary to talk about it, it spoils the picture pleasing to the elite.
        1. Daniil Konovalenko
          Daniil Konovalenko 26 November 2021 09: 46
          +1
          Do you think everyone so willingly accepted the new religion, the religion of yesterday's enemies?
          Who are you talking about? .. and then a comment from my friend.
    3. Al_lexx
      Al_lexx 25 November 2021 14: 46
      +1
      Read the comments.
      What can you say?
      TV is our everything.
      Or better be a fool. It's easier and calmer that way.
      Once again I am convinced that there is nothing to do on the Internet. Ignorance of the material ... oh, come on.
      Not interesting and not exciting.
      I won't say anything about Karamzin at all.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 26 November 2021 06: 45
        0
        Quote: Al_lexx
        I won't say anything about Karamzin at all.

        Of course, you haven't read it. As well as "Russkaya Pravda" and "Pravda Yaroslavichi". What for?
  6. ivan2022
    ivan2022 25 November 2021 06: 57
    -2
    The feudal lords in Russia were so strong that feudal relations, feudal law - - have survived to this day. What was excellent in the 18th century is murderous for the people in the 21st. There is a risk of being left in the past with all your kings and great victories.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 25 November 2021 07: 16
      0
      Quote: ivan2022
      have survived to this day.

      The feudal lords were not strong, but the society was too patriarchal for a number of objective reasons. And so the feudal vestiges and traditions were preserved even in the USSR.
      1. ivan2022
        ivan2022 25 November 2021 07: 36
        -2
        Quote: kalibr
        Quote: ivan2022
        have survived to this day.

        The feudal lords were not strong, but the society was too patriarchal for a number of objective reasons. And so the feudal vestiges and traditions were preserved even in the USSR.

        What are these reasons?
        And now, in my opinion, feudal traditions have risen. More than ever. Although nothing remained of patriarchy. Even the patriarchal community and the ability to create stable families have disappeared. And the Russian people were not particularly distinguished by their religiosity, even in past centuries.
        There was no patriarchy. There was only terrible serfdom. Which now makes the largest people of Russia the most disunited and defenseless. Chechens and Asians are patriarchal, but this is completely different.
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 25 November 2021 07: 53
          +4
          Quote: ivan2022
          Although there is nothing left of patriarchy

          Who told you that? Apparently you do not quite correctly understand the essence of this phenomenon. In fact, she is around us. Today, citizens of 3-4-5 generations literally ... 10% (and that's good). The rest of the population is 1-2-3 generations of rural migrants. Hence all the problems. We need a CENTURY (100) of life in stable conditions to develop a new type of culture. Have we had a "century of stability" since 1917 at least once? And the hammering - yes it was. It could and should have been overcome by 1961. But ... again, in conditions of stable development ... Did we have it? No! First revolution, then industrialization, collectivization and war ...
          In 1980, in a village I observed a full "bouquet" of patriarchal customs. And where do I meet my students today? In the town...
          1. ivan2022
            ivan2022 25 November 2021 14: 02
            +1
            Quote: kalibr
            Today, citizens of 3-4-5 generations literally ... 10% (and that's good). The rest of the population is 1-2-3 generations of rural migrants. Hence all the problems.

            Rural does not mean patriarchal. I am convinced that the Russian village disappeared not only for economic reasons, but also because (I saw it myself very well!) Its morals have always been bad, depraved and brutal ..... By the way, they have not read Leskov's story "Zagon" or Gorky's article "On the Russian peasantry"?

            The source of the problems is not a lack of stability. On the contrary, the very absence of stability is a consequence of the absence of any unifying idea at all among the people. He does not perceive ideas. For example, even in the USSR, Russians were united by work at large state enterprises, but not by the ideas of socialism. Nowadays, it unites only the Russian language. Even the West with its cities, even the United States, at least until the middle of the 20th century, was more patriarchal than Russia. For example, the power of the Pope was real for centuries, and this is the foundations of society and its stability! In Russia, there was the last true believer patriarch - Philip of Moscow; Ivan the Terrible tortured him. And the ROC has never had any real influence again, on the contrary, it has lost all authority, groveling before any ruler. What kind of stability can there be?
            1. kalibr
              kalibr 25 November 2021 14: 51
              0
              Quote: ivan2022
              Rural does not mean patriarchal.

              This is a discovery!
              Quote: ivan2022
              even in the USSR, Russians were united by work at large state-owned enterprises

              I agree.
              Quote: ivan2022
              Nowadays, it unites only the Russian language.

              I disagree. Also the mentality.
              Of course I read Gorky, Leskov is not. And I also read "Ivan's Life" by the daughter of Academician Semyon Tyan-Shanskiy. It is on the Web - read it, you will not regret it.
        2. kalibr
          kalibr 25 November 2021 08: 04
          -1
          Quote: ivan2022

          What are these reasons?

          Ivan! I would like to answer you in detail. But there is no time, no ... place. Maybe it’s better to write a separate article about this, what do you think?
          1. ivan2022
            ivan2022 25 November 2021 14: 03
            +2
            Quote: kalibr
            Maybe it's better to write a separate article about this, what do you think?

            It would be interesting....
      2. Edward Vashchenko
        25 November 2021 08: 37
        +12
        I will support Vyacheslav Olegovich:
        And so the feudal vestiges and traditions were preserved even in the USSR.

        By the end of it, especially, and even now, on the territory of the former USSR, some kind of 19th century is direct: someone who is more southerly, even in the tribal system, rolled back and be proud of it.
        The RF is exactly in late feudalism, "state capitalism" and this "conservatism" is carefully cultivated.
        hi
        1. Seba
          Seba 25 November 2021 10: 09
          +3
          I have now reread Djilas and Voslensky, in principle, social progress proceeds within the framework of the concepts described by them, so that now it turns out late industrial feudalism.
      3. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 25 November 2021 09: 52
        +2
        Quote: kalibr
        Quote: ivan2022
        have survived to this day.

        The feudal lords were not strong, but the society was too patriarchal for a number of objective reasons. And so the feudal vestiges and traditions were preserved even in the USSR.

        Well, our mentality is appropriate.
        We, for the most part, are rural-shtetl for many generations.
        And the values ​​are appropriate.
        Homeliness (everything before the sebe), lack of trust in the authorities, mutual assistance. At the same time, paradoxically, the authority of the master (landowner).
        So sho may, sho may.
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 25 November 2021 12: 11
          -1
          Emboss your comment in gold letters on the granite!
        2. Usher
          Usher 28 November 2021 01: 28
          0
          For me personally, the authority of the master is nonsense. For modern times. Although I noticed that in the west, I myself am from Buryatia, the workers are directly afraid of their bosses and curry favor. I asked, what will the boss kill you? Does it bite?
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 28 November 2021 02: 30
            0
            Quote: Usher
            For me personally, the authority of the master is nonsense. For modern times. Although I noticed that in the west, I myself am from Buryatia, the workers are directly afraid of their bosses and curry favor. I asked, what will the boss kill you? Does it bite?

            Governor authority and above.
  7. Korsar4
    Korsar4 25 November 2021 06: 59
    0
    All the same, we return to the classics. To Blok.

    “For you - centuries, for us - a single hour.
    We are like obedient slaves
    Holding a shield between two hostile races
    Mongols and Europe! "

    Details change over the centuries. The essence remains.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 25 November 2021 07: 18
      0
      Quote: Korsar4
      Details change over the centuries. The essence remains.

      Yes, he said better than Blok only that Sholokhov was in The Quiet Don, but there he meant something a little different ...
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 25 November 2021 07: 32
        -2
        Are you entirely about "Quiet Don" Vyacheslav Olegovich or about something specific?
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 25 November 2021 07: 58
          +1
          Quote: Korsar4
          something concrete?

          About the place where it is said about the position of Grigory Melekhov in the "social hole".
    2. Edward Vashchenko
      25 November 2021 07: 19
      +4
      Sergey,
      good morning,
      All the same, A. Blok, who went through WWI and the beginning of the Revolution, could reflect his reality by artistic means, .. terribly far from the real picture of Russian history, especially from the 21st century. But his words are eternal:
      Come to us! From the horrors of war
      Come in peace hugs!
      Before it's too late - the old sword in the sheath,
      Comrades! We will become - brothers!
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 25 November 2021 07: 30
        0
        Good morning Edward!

        If the words still hurt, probably close.
        Another question is where the external borders are now and what is the internal structure of the country.

        And it’s like in Stratagem: the building may remain the same, but the supporting pillars have changed.
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          25 November 2021 07: 39
          +5
          Another question is where the external borders are now and what is the internal structure of the country.

          This is yes, this is yes.
          Yours faithfully,
          hi
    3. Olgovich
      Olgovich 25 November 2021 08: 04
      +2
      Quote: Korsar4
      All the same, we return to the classics. To Blok.

      “For you - centuries, for us - a single hour.
      We are like obedient slaves
      Holding a shield between two hostile races
      Mongols and Europe! "


      Yes:

      Centuries go by, war roars,
      There is a rebellion, villages are burning,
      And you're still the same, my country,
      In tear-stained and ancient beauty
      . -

      Block.
  8. LisKat2
    LisKat2 25 November 2021 07: 15
    +3
    Good morning everyone.
    Eduard, thank you for the interesting story.
    I didn’t hear anything about the Battle of Emigayte. Edward, can you tell us?
    I read that religious tolerance persisted in Novgorod for a very long time. Orthodoxy and Catholicism coexisted quietly. There could be both Catholics and Orthodox Christians in the same family. Then it was necessary to baptize the child and people went to the nearest church.
    In my opinion, this suggests that there were no religious differences in the localities for a long time.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      25 November 2021 07: 54
      +5
      Catherine, good morning,
      I read that religious tolerance persisted in Novgorod for a very long time. Orthodoxy and Catholicism coexisted quietly. There could be both Catholics and Orthodox Christians in the same family. Then it was necessary to baptize the child and people went to the nearest church.
      In my opinion, this suggests that there were no religious differences in the localities for a long time.

      In the Middle Ages, there was no religious tolerance from the word at all. Within the framework of the mentality (if very broadly), people were extremely suspicious of outsiders, especially "heretics", and everyone who seemed to have a cross, but did something differently, were heretics.
      It can be assumed that while there were no significant differences, centuries before the 12th century, they could turn a blind eye to the rituals, but, and this is clearly reflected in the Legend of Baptism, German Catholics were viewed as apostates (heretics), so they looked at us as well. There was an episode when the Swedes, even in the 13th century. taking Izhora and Russians prisoner, they baptized them.
      "Tolerance" in the Middle Ages was always forced, as the Khazar Kagan wrote, if I were not afraid that Muslims would harm the synanogs on the territory of Islamic countries, I would have ripped them off long ago. And so everywhere. So there was no particular tolerance in Novgorod. In Russia, in general, there was an acute question: can someone build their own temples?
      There is a known story with the Church of St. Olaf, someone thinks that he was in Novgorod, and someone that the Scandinavians just called some Russian temple.
      I repeat, all this is connected with the mentality: the destruction of the temple, desecration, this is the most terrible crime against the community, and for what purpose is the construction of someone else's temple on the territory of your community? Weaken our divine powers, increase the powers of foreigners? This was totally unacceptable.
      Yours faithfully,
      Edward
      1. LisKat2
        LisKat2 25 November 2021 08: 59
        +3
        Edward, I read about it in the magazine "Science and Religion".
        In the 90s I came across some kind of reference book, I think, a dictionary on the history of religion? It was about a church schism: Eastern and Western churches, it also said that the antagonism between the tsequi did not immediately begin.
      2. Daniil Konovalenko
        Daniil Konovalenko 25 November 2021 13: 31
        +1
        Yes, there would have been religious tolerance in Poland, there was no 1612 ... and the Russian state at the same time.
    2. kalibr
      kalibr 25 November 2021 08: 01
      +1
      Quote: LisKat2
      In my opinion, this suggests that there were no religious differences in the localities for a long time.

      So the pope and the patriarch anathematized each other only in 1054. Great schism!
      1. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 25 November 2021 13: 05
        +1
        Vyacheslav Olegovich: "in 1054" you supported the pig, she will now pull her nose up
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 25 November 2021 19: 16
          0
          Quote: Astra wild2
          she will turn her nose up now

          "Plato is my friend but the truth is dearer!"
    3. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 25 November 2021 12: 54
      +1
      Quote: LisKat2
      I didn’t hear anything about the battle of Emigayte.

      Otherwise, the battle of Omovzha in 1234
      There is an article on this topic in my profile. As part of the cycle about Prince Yaroslav Vsevolodovich.
  9. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 25 November 2021 07: 23
    +3
    Somewhat discouraged by the title of the panorama shown in the first illustration.
    Thanks Edward!
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 25 November 2021 07: 39
      +2
      Signature from another diorama. Not so bad. But better to fix it.
    2. Edward Vashchenko
      25 November 2021 07: 41
      +3
      Anton,
      good morning! Thanks for pointing out the error. Something "the hand was blurred" when he signed.
      Let's fix it!
      Yours faithfully,
      hi
  10. Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 25 November 2021 07: 48
    +3
    Colleagues, Edward, good morning. Interesting and somewhat unexpected material. However, I've gotten used to the unexpected: Valery, Vyacheslav Olegovich and you want to find a zest
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      25 November 2021 08: 39
      +3
      Good morning,
      not entirely unexpected, I had a number of articles here about the development of Russia, a modern scientific view. For a long time I pressed the sequel, but decided to lay out tongue
      Yours faithfully,
      hi
      1. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 25 November 2021 09: 36
        +2
        Eduard, the fact of the matter is that he is MODERN, and I studied in a Soviet school and for me this is somewhat unexpected.
        Pig is younger, perhaps she is used to it, but I am a little unexpected
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          25 November 2021 10: 42
          +2
          and I studied in a Soviet school

          I also good
          hi
          1. Astra wild2
            Astra wild2 25 November 2021 12: 42
            0
            Therefore, it will be clear to you
  11. Lynx2000
    Lynx2000 25 November 2021 07: 49
    +6
    What's scarier: a western or eastern threat

    M. Zhvanetsky: "Of two evils, I choose the one that I have not tried before ..."
    Russia experienced the eastern threat (including the wars with the Ottomans), and from the West, too, since the Middle Ages, the Time of Troubles and beyond. Any aggression is the threat of seizure of land, enslavement, destruction of the population, loss of national identity. "Horseradish radish is not sweeter."
    Reasoning about the reasons for offensive wars (aggression) on religious grounds, or revenge for an insult, from the evil one, is just a pretext for a war with the aim of enrichment (new territories, robberies, imposition of tribute).
  12. Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 25 November 2021 07: 53
    +1
    I wanted to object, but changed my mind
  13. ee2100
    ee2100 25 November 2021 07: 55
    0
    It is a pity that this article, more propagandistic than historical, was written by Ph.D. Eduard Vaschenko!
    I understand that it is timed to coincide with the anniversary of Alexander Yaroslavovich, but weave everything together! This is worthy of the propagandists of the central media.
    In the materials used, the Livonian Chronicles are historical and that's it!
    This is not an article on a historical topic, but, at best, the political information of a political propagandist, such as VOSH.
    If you "turn on the head", then the conclusion suggests itself. Since the 13th century, the territory of the Russian principalities has been invaded, all neighbors want to crush and destroy them, but they are only getting stronger and expanding! Paradox!
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      25 November 2021 08: 47
      +5
      Good morning Alexander,
      Since the 13th century, the territory of the Russian principalities has been invaded, all neighbors want to crush and destroy them, but they are only strengthening and expanding! Paradox!

      From the end of the 13th century, gradually the entire southern and western Russia went under the control of the Grand Duke of Lithuania. At the beginning of the 14th century. part of Chervona Rus falls under the control of Poland, where it remained until the Polish partitions of the 18th century and 1939. Polotsk, which controlled part of the Baltic, lost everything, just like Smolensk: income from the Baltic and Finnish tribes, as well as Novgorod and Pskov. What kind of extension are we talking about?
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 25 November 2021 09: 00
        +1
        You end your story with the time of Ivan the 4th !? Didn't it expand?
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          25 November 2021 10: 38
          +3
          Alexander,
          until I got to Ivan IV laughing laughing
          Indeed, it was under him that the expansion of borders began, before that, as it were, "collecting lands".
          But this is a different period, a different time.
          Yours faithfully, hi
      2. ee2100
        ee2100 25 November 2021 12: 05
        -3
        “Rus goes under the control of the Grand Duke of Lithuania. At the beginning of the 14th century, part of Chervona Rus falls under the control of Poland, where it remained until the Polish partitions of the 18th century and 1939. Polotsk, which controlled part of the Baltic, lost everything, as did Smolensk: income from the Baltic and Finnish tribes, as well as Novgorod and Pskov "(c)
        "Rus" is a later concept and the departure of a part of the land under the "hand" of a stronger one is a natural process.
        About income. One must distinguish between regularly collected taxes and income from sporadic raids. Yes, Novgorod and Pskov lost this income. Few remember that Novgorod at the beginning of the Middle Ages was one of the largest and richest cities in Europe!
        1. Daniil Konovalenko
          Daniil Konovalenko 25 November 2021 13: 35
          0
          Few remember that Novgorod at the beginning of the Middle Ages was one of the largest and richest cities in Europe!
          You alone, as a child, watched Sadko's fairy tale film, and the rest did not .. smile
    2. Bar1
      Bar1 25 November 2021 10: 48
      -2
      Quote: ee2100
      If you "turn on the head", then the conclusion suggests itself. Since the 13th century, the territory of the Russian principalities has been invaded, all neighbors want to crush and destroy them, but they are only getting stronger and expanding! Paradox!


      but you don't need to turn on your head, you just need to take the OI, as it is written.
      The fact is that OI never answers questions, but only states, "this is so, and this is like this." Or in the best case: "... read this book, everything is there, you will understand everything, and if you do not understand, then your problems, who does not understand us, is illiterate, we give two marks to him."
    3. Astra wild2
      Astra wild2 25 November 2021 12: 44
      0
      Weren't there invasions?
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 25 November 2021 14: 56
        -2
        Quote: Astra wild2
        Weren't there invasions?


        did not have



        shorter

  14. Olgovich
    Olgovich 25 November 2021 08: 29
    -1
    There was no "united Russia", as the historical school of B. Grekov, prevailing in the USSR, was, as well as there was no feudalism, nor feudal fragmentation, due to the still absence thereof in the vastness of Eastern Europe.


    Then in Western Europe it was not - in France, for example, not all of the territory was privately owned. A considerable part of the land was retained by the state in the person of the French king, who ruled it with the hands of his officials and not all peasants fell into dependence on the feudal lords: everything turned out later.

    clashes between Russian principalities and western neighbors, first of all, were in the nature of border wars for material resources, and not for faith. Although the motive of faith was present.


    This also applies to events of much more significant, the same crusades of the West.

    Without underestimating the significance of the military victories of Russian weapons and the subsequent propaganda (in a very good sense of the word) significance of these victories for the growth of the people's self-awareness, it should be noted that these threats in the XIII century. in no way can be compared with the Mongols.


    It is possible and necessary: ​​crusades were committed against Russia
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      25 November 2021 08: 42
      +3
      Dear Olgovich,
      good morning,
      crusades were committed against Russia

      Is it possible to clarify where such information is when the Pope announced a campaign against Russia?
      hi
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 25 November 2021 09: 02
        +1
        On the Central Television broadcast!
      2. Smesharik83
        Smesharik83 25 November 2021 09: 13
        +2
        And weren't the sword-bearers under the church curse then?
      3. Boris55
        Boris55 25 November 2021 09: 26
        -6
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        Is it possible to clarify where such information is when the Pope announced a campaign against Russia?

        When? - Is always.
        - A. Nevsky broke the cross of the bearers (the Pope's army).
        - SS (WWII) - blessed anti-human organization by the Pope for the destruction of the Slavs.

        Evidence of the genocide of the Russian people, in connection with the consequences of the baptism of Russia:
        1. Russia was baptized by fire and sword.
        2. An alien religion - Christianity - is forcibly imposed on the Russian people.
        3. Christians destroyed the Slavic temples, treasures, luminaries.
        4. Destruction of the estate of Russian clergy, the Magi.
        5. Destruction of the ancient books of Vedic literature.
        6. The ban on the study of runes and other types of Russian writing.
        7. Replacing the runes with the simplest script of Cyril and Methodius.
        8. Christianity rejects and hides the past of Russia before its baptism.
        9. Introduction to serfdom in Russia slavery of the Russian people.
        10. The introduction of Old Testament usury loan interest.
        11. Silence by Christians of the harm of technocratic civilization.
        12. Soldering Russian People, Communion from childhood.
        13. Moral degeneration due to church education.
        14. The destruction of the Vedic science of giving birth and raising children.
        15. The baptism of Russian children only by Jewish or Greek names.
        1. Astra wild2
          Astra wild2 25 November 2021 09: 42
          +3
          Colleague Boris, you have mixed several themes in one bottle
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 November 2021 12: 40
            +3
            Quote: Astra wild2
            Colleague Boris, you have mixed several themes in one bottle

            This is not a bottle, but more like a night vase! winked
            1. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 25 November 2021 13: 07
              +1
              Hee hee. Evilly noticed
      4. The comment was deleted.
      5. Olgovich
        Olgovich 25 November 2021 10: 45
        -1
        bull of Pope Celestine III 1193 called for the Christianization of the peoples of northern Europe. In 1207, the Order of the Swordsmen captured Kukeinos - the center of one of the Russian appanage principalities in Livonia. In 1209, Bishop Albert, with the help of the Order, captured Gersik the capital of the second Russian Polotsk inheritance in Livonia.

        In the papal bull of December 9, 1237, Gregory IX appealed to the Swedish archbishop and his bishops with an appeal to organize a "crusade" to Finland "against the Tavasts" and their "close neighbors". Thus, calling on the crusaders to destroy the “enemies of the cross,” the Pope had in mind, along with the Tavasts (another name is eme), also Karelians and Russians, in alliance with whom the Tavasts opposed Catholic expansion.

        Wilhelm Modensky, by order of the Pope, began to actively form an anti-Russian coalition. With his participation, on June 7, 1238, at Stanby, the residence of the Danish king Valdemar II, the king met with the master of the already united Teutonic Order in Livonia, Herman Balk. Then a treaty on Estonia was drawn up, according to which a third of the conquered lands was given to the Order, the rest to the Danish king. At the same time, the issue of a joint attack on Russia by the three main members of the coalition was discussed: on the one hand, the Danish crusaders stationed in Estonia, the Teutons from Livonia and the crusaders who settled in Finland, and on the other, the Swedish knights. This united the three forces of Western European chivalry: the Swedes, the Germans and the Danes.

        In 1238, the pope blessed the king of Sweden on a crusade against the Novgorod lands, and promised absolution to all participants in this campaign, and in 1240 they switched to an active phase of the invasion, hoping that the Russian principalities weakened by the Mongol invasion would not be able to offer serious resistance.

        However, in 1240 the Swedish knights, who were supposed to deliver the first blow to Novgorod from the north, from the side of the Neva River, were defeated by Alexander Yaroslavich, who after this battle received the nickname “Nevsky (s)

        I perfectly understand that you have a different point of view, but no less eminent historians think so.
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          25 November 2021 11: 14
          +4
          Dear Olgovich!
          I am not "eminent", what are you talking about? good
          What you have given is not data from sources, but from one of the works, where they are interpreted in this way. In the style of the 40s of the twentieth century, which is understandable, the consequences of a terrible war.
          The modern vision of events is completely different.
          I write that the blow was directed against the "pagans" and "on the ground" the Swedes, for example, referred to the Russians as them. Pope who actively wanted to "get" the Eastern Christians. never declared crusades against Russia, there can be no such bulls.
          The collisions and their reasons, I described above, will not repeat myself.
          Yours faithfully,
          Edward
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 25 November 2021 11: 42
            +3
            Let me note, meanwhile, that in Sweden itself, at the time of the first phase of the "Northern Crusades", a clan struggle for power between the Sverkers and the Folkungs was in full swing. So there can be no question of any "Swedish chivalry, in a single impulse".
          2. Olgovich
            Olgovich 25 November 2021 12: 32
            0
            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            I am not "eminent", what are you talking about?

            about "Ph.D."
            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            What you have given is not data from sources, but from one of the works, where they are interpreted in this way.

            the sources-papal bulls are given.

            You interpret them this way, other historians - differently (and convincingly)
            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            ... Pope who actively wanted to "get" the Eastern Christians. never declared crusades against Russia, there can be no such bulls.

            the goal of the northern crusades, which was called bulls-Christianization of the population and subordination of the respective territory, incl. territories of Russia (which someone could consider and not Russia).

            Attempts of which happened in 1207-1242: Kukeinos, Koporye, Neva, Izborsk, Pskov, Lake Peipsi are real geographical milestones in the struggle against crusaders.

            Sincerely.
            hi
            1. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 25 November 2021 12: 59
              0
              "other historians differently" Andrey "Olgovich" name at least one name.
              Edward has sources, but you?
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 26 November 2021 09: 08
                -2
                Quote: Astra wild2
                other historians otherwise "Andrey" Olgovich "name at least one name.
                Edward has sources, but you?

                belay

                read the ARTICLE carefully
            2. Edward Vashchenko
              25 November 2021 13: 20
              +1
              The attempts of which occurred in 1207-1242: Kukeinos, Koporye, Neva, Izborsk, Pskov, Lake Peipsi are real geographical milestones in the struggle against the crusaders.

              So I am writing about this, Cho the crusaders fought with the Russian principalities. But no one against Russia of the crusade declared: "it happened."
              The crusaders fought desperately against Poland, and Lithuania and the Russian princes helped her against them, but no one announced a crusade against Poland either.
              Yours faithfully,
              hi
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 26 November 2021 09: 07
                -2
                Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                "it happened".

                it so happened that the crusades for the Christianization of the pagans became crusades against Russia-the actual part of Russia, they considered their own.

                Best regards hi
                1. Edward Vashchenko
                  26 November 2021 10: 24
                  +2
                  Good morning,
                  chub corrected:
                  it so happened that the crusades for the Christianization of the pagans became crusades against Russia, they considered the actual part of Russia theirs.

                  Within the framework of modern historiography:
                  crusades to christianize pagans steel campaigns against Russia, they considered the actual part of Russia theirs, since the Pope, of course, was not averse to profit from the new flock of Russian "schismatics".

                  Yours faithfully,
                  Edward
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 26 November 2021 10: 33
                    -1
                    Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                    the crusades for the Christianization of the pagans became campaigns against Russia, they considered the actual part of Russia theirs, since the Pope, of course, was not averse to profit from the new flock of Russian "schismatics".

                    Good morning!

                    In the end, you said practically the same thing as I did.

                    Best regards hi
                2. Smesharik83
                  Smesharik83 27 November 2021 19: 11
                  -4
                  Dak the Order of the Swordsmen and organized a campaign against the Archbishop of Riga, for which the Pope excommunicated them from the church wink

                  Then the Masons did not even think that the whole purpose of their life was to offend the Russian people))
      6. Daniil Konovalenko
        Daniil Konovalenko 25 November 2021 13: 37
        +2
        smile You shouldn't have asked this question, and even to Olgovich, only Olgovich knows about this and the rest. smile
  15. bandabas
    bandabas 25 November 2021 09: 06
    +3
    Was there a situation with the Tatar-Mongol invaders? Personally, I am fair-haired, like my relatives. Lots of brunette people. Only after the "expansion" there are no slanting eyes. No no. I'm not a nationalist, but. Genetics is a serious science. A long time ago I would have taken another wife ... Then I would have said exactly about the gene pool hi .
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 November 2021 16: 20
      +1
      Quote: bandabas
      Personally, I am fair-haired, like my relatives.

      A distinctive marker of Finno-Ugric blood.
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 26 November 2021 09: 57
        0
        "marker of Finno-Ugric blood" - amused!
        A new curse?
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 November 2021 09: 11
          +1
          Alexander, nothing personal.
          Light brown hair (the so-called Link) and light gray (blue) eyes in children are a distinctive feature of the Finno-Ugric peoples (Mordovians, Chuvashes, Meri, etc.).
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. ee2100
            ee2100 27 November 2021 18: 19
            0
            I'm not talking about that, but about the "marker" and "marker" drinks
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 November 2021 21: 14
              +1
              I'm typing on the phone, from here stupid mistakes.
              Regards, Vlad!
              1. ee2100
                ee2100 27 November 2021 22: 08
                0
                I realized it happens to myself hi
      2. The comment was deleted.
        1. The comment was deleted.
  16. north 2
    north 2 25 November 2021 10: 23
    +1
    very strange, to put it mildly, article.
    Just what is the author's assertion that in the 13th century the cities of Russia on the border with Poland made campaigns for tribute against Zhmudi, thereby becoming allies of the crusaders.
    But after all, the Grand Duke of Lithuania Mindovg, at the beginning of the 13th century, killed the Zhmud prince Vikint and wrote down all the lands of Zhmudi to the Order of the Crusaders. How is it that the Russians imposed a tribute on what belonged to the crusaders and therefore were allies of the crusaders ???
  17. Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 25 November 2021 10: 36
    +1
    Although the motive of faith was present.

    At all times, a great occasion to sort things out with neighbors.
    Greetings to Edward! hi
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      25 November 2021 13: 45
      +1
      Welcome hi Sergei!
  18. nikvic46
    nikvic46 25 November 2021 11: 13
    -1
    The Tatar-Mongol yoke lasted 240 years. During this time, we could have had home-grown kulibins, watchmakers, and cultural figures, and he had thrown us 240 years back. Of course, any occupation can be justified, but even ancient Uzbekistan was ahead of us. Who managed to give a worthy rebuff to Genghis Khan.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 November 2021 12: 38
      +1
      Quote: nikvic46
      Of course, any occupation can be justified, but even ancient Uzbekistan was ahead of us. Who managed to give a worthy rebuff to Genghis Khan.

      Hmm, what do you have under ancient Uzbekistan?
      1. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 25 November 2021 12: 44
        +1
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        Hmm, what do you have under ancient Uzbekistan?

        And what do I like, and how do you like "Ancient Australia" or "Medieval America"? wassat
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 November 2021 12: 48
          +1
          Yep, polar bears at the South Pole are hunting penguins!
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 25 November 2021 12: 54
            +1
            At the equator
          2. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 25 November 2021 12: 54
            0
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            polar bears at the south pole are hunting penguins!

            Or penguins on war chariots in Artik for polar bears!
            But everything has "its end, its beginning" wassat
            1. Illanatol
              Illanatol 27 November 2021 08: 57
              0
              Make Pinguins Great Again!
    2. Daniil Konovalenko
      Daniil Konovalenko 25 November 2021 13: 44
      +1
      Well, there was no occupation as such. It was an occupation regime, there were no troops.
      During this time, we could have homegrown kulibins, watchmakers, and cultural figures.
      .. A controversial issue, the decline of Russian culture began before the invasion, during the period of internecine squabbles. Each strove to do more nasty things to the other.
    3. Illanatol
      Illanatol 27 November 2021 08: 58
      0
      Quote: nikvic46
      even ancient Uzbekistan was ahead of us. Who managed to give a worthy rebuff to Genghis Khan.


      What, the Great Tamerlane tried? am
  19. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 25 November 2021 11: 52
    +3
    Edward, greetings. Great article, thanks. But there are comments.
    So. smile
    Hungary and Poland, participating in Russian strife, for the time being did not claim the Russian lands.

    They quite pretended to themselves. Hungarians - to Galich, Poles - to Przemysl. The struggle for these lands was quite intense for a long time.
    there was no feudalism, no feudal fragmentation

    In the classical sense, it was generally only in France. The further east you go, the more and more "feudalism" is smeared. I am closer to the point of view of Gorsky, who proposes to expand the concept of feudalism to such a volume that it would be possible to squeeze the whole of Europe into it without problems, otherwise you have to painfully pull the owl on the globe, adjusting the English, German, Russian and other models to the classical French, in relation to which the concept of feudalism was developed.
    In Lithuania.
    There is an interesting point of view about the origin of the Lithuanian statehood, according to which the Lithuanian tribes from the time of at least Vseslav the Sorcerer were part of the Polotsk principality and were its direct vassals. The long internecine wars of Russia in general and the Polotsk land in particular shifted the centers of power of the Polotsk principality to the west, the appearance of the Germans at the beginning of the XNUMXth century. accelerated this process. That is, the processes taking place in Polotsk and Lithuania in the XIII century. actually repeated in Russia in the XNUMXth century, when the center of power of the Golden Horde shifted to the west, and from there the expansion of Russia to the east began. In other words, the Lithuanian statehood stems from the Polotsk land and, speaking about the aggression of Lithuania against Russia, we are talking about, in fact, Russian civil strife, just as the Battle of Kulikovo was part of the strife in the Golden Horde.
    About Smolensk. I am not aware of any clash of interests between the Smolensk principality and the German-Danish enclave in the Baltic states. The lands of Smolensk were located south and east of the zone of influence of the Germans, the interests of the Smolensk princes were not violated by the German expansion, it seems.
    The first economic blockade of Novgorod by the Western allies took place in 1229–1230.

    As far as I remember, it was at this time in Novgorod that there was a famine caused by crop failure throughout the Russian land, but it was the Germans who then saved Novgorod from extinction. There was no question of any blockade, on the contrary.
    I more or less agree with the rest of the theses of the article, but on the points listed I would like to hear the comments of my colleagues and yours, of course.
    hi
    1. ee2100
      ee2100 25 November 2021 12: 44
      0
      That's right, Michael!
      The blockade of Novgorod was precisely from the side of the lower principalities. Hansa actually saved Novgorod with grain supplies. Relations between Lithuania and the Russian principalities can be viewed as a rivalry between irreconcilable friends.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 25 November 2021 13: 08
        +1
        Quote: ee2100
        The blockade of Novgorod was precisely from the side of the lower principalities.

        It was during these years that no. The lack of crops affected almost all Russian lands, famine was noted everywhere, except for Kiev and other southern lands. But if Smolensk, Chernigov, Vladimir could somehow neutralize this hunger by trading with more southern lands - Kiev, Volynia, etc., then Novgorod had nowhere to take bread - from the south it simply did not reach it.
        The Germans then saved.
        That same summer God revealed his mercy to us sinners, take your mercy soon: resort to the Germans and zamora eat life and flour, and the alignment is much good; but already better at the end of the city

        NPL
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 25 November 2021 13: 15
          0
          So be it. Some historians believe that they deliberately did not let grain into Novgorod.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 25 November 2021 13: 55
            +2
            There is clear chronicle news that the Vladimir principality in those years bought bread in Bulgaria, and Smolensk - in Riga (I don’t remember exactly). There was no one of our own. There was nothing to organize the blockade.
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 November 2021 12: 52
      0
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      In other words, the Lithuanian statehood stems from the Polotsk land and, speaking about the aggression of Lithuania against Russia, we are talking about, in fact, Russian civil strife,

      I agree completely! At a certain stage of the formation of the Lithuanian-Russian principality, it could be headed by a representative of the House of Rurikovich, but it did not grow together.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 25 November 2021 13: 11
        +1
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        could be headed by a representative of the House of Rurik

        Didn't hear about it, Vlad. Interesting. When it was?
        So they were all Rurik on the female side, there is more Russian blood than Lithuanian.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 November 2021 16: 16
          +1
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Didn't hear about it, Vlad. Interesting. When it was?
          So they were all Rurik on the female side, there is more Russian blood than Lithuanian.

          I read about this opportunity in the essay "Russia Goes East", the author Lev (but forgot his last name). The beginning of the reign of Gediminas.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 25 November 2021 16: 43
            0
            I'll look, interesting ...
        2. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 25 November 2021 16: 42
          +1
          Yagailo by 3/4 Rurikovich, Vitovt - by 1/4. "On average in a hospital" - half.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 25 November 2021 16: 57
            0
            This is if Gedemin is considered a pure Lithuanian. And then "God knows", as our ancestors said ... smile
            Marriages between Rurik and Lithuanians have been known since the beginning of the XNUMXth century. anyway. There is an assumption that Vseslav Polotsky was already married to a Litvinka. smile
            His son Rostislav at one time was credited with the honor of being the ancestor of all Lithuanian princes, including Mindovg and Gedemin.
            So I wouldn't even say about Biruta unambiguously. If she was of noble birth - most likely, too, with Russian blood. smile
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 25 November 2021 20: 27
              +1
              It, of course, could have happened, but what about it ...
              "In the Middle Ages, there was no religious tolerance from the word at all." (E. Vaschenko)
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 25 November 2021 23: 37
                +1
                The pagans, in my opinion, was. They did not impose anything on anyone and could easily pray even to foreign gods, if they were convinced that this helps in real life.
                Christians did not have this, of course, but no one forbade to conclude marriages, namely, to marry pagans, baptizing them. A huge number of marriages with Polovtsian women confirm this.
                But there are subtleties with the marriage of your daughters to pagans. With regard to the Polovtsy, such a case, if my memory serves me, was only one - Khan Bashkord took a widow princess as his wife.
                With Lithuania, the situation was different. We know for sure that the Russian princesses were given out for the Lithuanian pagan princes, on the condition not to prevent them from praying according to the Orthodox rite, attending services, etc., for which there was always a priest at the princess's court, and there was always a church in her place of residence.
                There is every reason to believe that, for example, Dovmont was the son of a Russian princess. Olgerd and Gedemin were pagans, but married to Orthodox princesses (Olgerd twice).
                Such a difference in the attitudes of the Russian princes towards the Polovtsy and Lithuania, by the way, also says a lot.
                So faith is faith, and political gain is something completely different.
    3. Edward Vashchenko
      25 November 2021 14: 15
      +4
      Michael,
      glad to hear that!!!!
      Regarding your questions: regarding Hungary and Poland, I mean that they did not manage to capture anything until the period of the weakening of the forces of the Russian princes in the 15th century. Probably not quite clearly formulated.
      Regarding the blockade, thank you very much for vigilantly noticed, 1239-1240, as some researchers think, in particular Shaskolsky.
      About feudalism. Long story lol I'd rather answer with a whole article? I can't just answer wink
      In Lithuania, yes, the Lithuanian lands were tributaries of Polotsk, periodically making attacks on the Russian lands from Belarus to Novgorod.
      In the XII century. they began the same process as in Russia in the XNUMXth century, the disintegration of the tribal system. And ... how Rurik and co, they directly sat on the southern Russian principalities, weakened by the Mongols and clashes, etc.
      It even seems to me that for all the similarity of the development of the Russian lands in the 14th century, in the south, in the east and north, due to falling under the control of Lithuania, which was at a lower stage of development, although they "did not collapse", the first the stage of social lag of the south from the northeast.
      Thanks again!
      Yours faithfully,
      Edward
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 25 November 2021 15: 32
        +3
        My respect to the author. hi
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        in Hungary and Poland, I mean that they did not manage to capture anything

        But attempts were made constantly. Galich and Cherven towns are an eternal cause for discord.
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        I'd rather answer with a whole article

        Aha smile
        But Lithuania is an interesting topic.
        Even during the wars of Vseslav Bryachislavich for Novgorod, he, once again snatching away from his opponents, disappeared somewhere, and then returned as if nothing had happened with a new army. In one of the cases, the chronicle notes the presence of Lithuanian contingents in his army. Can we assume that he ran to Lithuania? Can.
        Lithuania is also constantly slipping through the gatherings of Vseslav's children. Mstislav the Great, having dispersed the Polotsk get-together and sent it to Byzantium, also made a trip to Lithuania, however, "he had no time" and it is not clear what business he went there for, but went, so it was necessary.
        With Vseslav's grandchildren, Lithuania is also involved in showdowns. Well, with great-grandchildren, the first Lithuanian names appear (already in German chronicles) and always in connection with a relationship to some Russian prince. In memory now only Dovgerd, but, in my opinion, there were more.
        Most of the Russian lands up to Gedemin, inclusive, were cleaned by the Lithuanians without a fight - on the basis of their family ties, like the grandchildren, sons-in-law and nephews of Russian princes (Polotsk, Vitebsk, in my opinion, Drutsk).
        One gets the impression that the local population by the beginning of the XIII century. perceived the Lithuanian nobles not as foreigners, but as representatives of their own princes, the same "Rogvolzhian grandchildren", like the rest of the Rurikites - hence the ease with which Lithuania took and held Russian lands. If you remember how fiercely the Polotsk land resisted the Monomashians back in the XNUMXth century, then how it submitted to Lithuania literally half a century later can only say that the Lithuanian princes, in the understanding of the people of that time, were closer to them than those of Kiev or Smolensk.
        Conclusion: the Lithuanian princes are the same "ours" as the Smolensk, Kiev, Vladimir and Galician princes, and the conflicts between Russia and Lithuania are internal conflicts within the framework of the once united ancient Russian state.
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 November 2021 16: 10
        +2
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        Regarding your questions: about Hungary and Poland, I mean that they did not manage to capture anything until the period of the weakening of the forces of the Russian princes in the 15th century.

        Quote: Trilobite Master
        But attempts were made constantly. Galich and Cherven towns are an eternal cause for discord.

        The varnish is there and it is not clear, the plot is - who. The Lyash and Hungarian denunciations of our princes were mainly based on family relationships! Either the grandfather helps the grandson against the uncle, or the uncle intrigues the nephew.
  20. depressant
    depressant 25 November 2021 12: 13
    +2
    I read the article. Thank you Edward!
    Condition ... I don't even know how to say it. For me, a person who badly remembered the ancient history of his state, it was difficult to determine the assessment of his state by the time the Horde came. I had to turn to other sources, and it turned out that under the pressure of the Southern Steppe, Russia seemed to have shifted to the north, Kiev lost its importance as the capital, the transfer of power was now carried out not by seniority, but by inheritance, Russia ceased to be a state under a single government, turned into a number of separate principalities, each of which tried to conduct its own policy, there was no unity between the princes.
    But I would not ascribe to the Horde a decisive influence on the process of consolidation of the Russian principalities into a common state. Because the Russians had the experience of existence in such a way, and memory and skills cannot be erased. Historical and everyday practice shows that memory is indestructible, isn't it?
    This was important for me to remember. It was just that the Russians needed time to consolidate under a single leadership in the new territorial conditions, taking into account the proposed models of consolidation both from the west and from the east. After all, the "teaching" pressure on us came from all sides. And we did it not thanks to the Horde, but in spite of it. Contrary to everyone. The Horde was only part of the pressure, which has its own characteristics compared to the pressure from the north, west and south.
  21. Diviz
    Diviz 25 November 2021 12: 35
    -1
    An interesting title - it means that there were civilizations in the east and west, and it means that we fell from the sky. And we are always afraid of someone!
    SchA still listened to some grammarians, which means that the Russians are not Slavs. The Rus are Rurikovichs and they therefore were engaged in the sacrifice of people aha and Prince Vladimir accepted the Jewish rite and killed his brother. Better to watch Ponasenkov, he even tells with humor.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 November 2021 12: 59
      0
      Quote: DiViZ
      Better to watch Ponasenkov, he even tells with humor.

      I will surprise you, but it is better to read Shakhmatov, Rybakov, Grekov, Fortyanov and others. Although to each his own.
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 25 November 2021 13: 21
      +5
      Quote: DiViZ
      Better to look at Ponasenkov

      Look better than Klim. Also with humor, but also within the framework of science. Panasenkov even managed to get a lie, and this really needs to be shown in the field of pseudosciences.
  22. Petrik66
    Petrik66 25 November 2021 13: 25
    +2
    The Russian princes received from the Chukhonts, and then some new boys in white surcoats appeared and began to transfer the lave to themselves. Inside the cities, there were also misunderstandings with the pushing out of bablos, sometimes by some groups, then by others. The brigades from the outside were invited to the scattering, as in Pskov, for example. When the Swedish brigade landed on the territory of the "Novgorod and Sons" company, they instantly made peace with the local boys and those, with "Brigadier" Sasha, ran into the newcomers and quickly explained to them that; This is our cow and we milk it. After the enchanting showdown on the Neva, the Novgorodians again beguiled and did not pay off. But, for a short time, the music played, for a short time the fraer danced. A new brigade has appeared, judging by the crosses - clearly "blue". At this point, the Novgorod hucksters realized that they had fallen into a complete whore and sent a confession to the "Aleksandrovskys". They say they were wrong, the demon beguiled and solve our problems, and we agree to everything. "Aleksandrovskie" and the Novgorod private security company hammered the arrow to the "crusaders" and there they popularly explained to the newcomers how wrong they were. The showdown was notable, even in the criminal chronicles they wrote about it, and then they also made a movie, and Sasha began to urge Nesky to respond .. Everything would be fine, but then thugs from Siberia and "blacks" from Asia showed up. By lawlessness, they have already dealt with Vladimir, Tver and others. In short - the Treason is complete. But Sasha Nevsky at the moment skumekal and drove up to the outlaws on a lame goat and thieves snot. They say we understand everything, we have no complaints and are ready to share the dough. He came all so handsome, with whom from the elders it was necessary to squirm, he gave a couple of cutlets to someone who was supposed to and became, along the way, recognized by those "cool kid". And so the story began with us.
  23. Al_lexx
    Al_lexx 25 November 2021 14: 55
    +2
    Quote: Illanatol
    But it is rather difficult to explain why the peak of the construction of churches and cathedrals fell on the time of the notorious "Yoke".
    And that the pagans who worship the god of war, Sulde, loved the Christian church so much that they endowed it with advantageous privileges?
    Even official historians in our time are reconsidering the relationship between the Horde and Russia, admitting that they were not as unambiguous as in the "historical novels" of the recent past.

    Bravo!
    I applaud standing.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 25 November 2021 19: 32
      0
      Quote: Al_lexx
      Bravo!
      I applaud standing.

      Better sit down. Folk wisdom says: "There really is no legs!"
  24. LisKat2
    LisKat2 25 November 2021 16: 00
    +2
    I will see how Edward and Vyacheslav Olegovich communicate and are delighted: different people, different political interests, but respect each other. We would like to learn from them!
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 25 November 2021 19: 34
      +2
      Quote: LisKat2
      political interests are different, but respect each other

      We are people of the same social stratum, of the same profession, we went through the same trials - naturally, we have a lot in common, we speak the same language of historical science, and therefore it is easy for us to understand each other
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. the warrior of the working class
      the warrior of the working class 25 November 2021 22: 02
      0
      "How, dear Cockerel, you sing, you are loud, it is important!" -
      “And you, Cuckoo, my light,
      How to pull smoothly and lingeringly:
      In the whole forest we don’t have such a singer! ” -
      “I am ready to listen to you, my kumanek, century.” -
      “And you, beauty, I swear
      As soon as you shut up, then I wait, I won’t wait,
      So you start again ...
      Is such a voice taken?
      And clean, and gentle, and high! ..
      Yeah, you’re kind of like that: not so big
      And the songs are your nightingale! ” -
      “Thank you, godmother; but, in my conscience,
      You eat better than a bird of paradise
      I refer to everyone in this. ”
      Then Sparrow happened to say to them: “Friends!
      Though you hoarse, praising each other, -
      All your music is bad! .. "
      _________

      Why, without fear of sin,
      Does the cuckoo praise the Rooster?
      For praising the Cuckoo.
  25. faterdom
    faterdom 25 November 2021 21: 03
    +1
    Among other things, it would be nice to add where, in fact, these religious orders came from from the Germans and other Western Europeans in the Baltic States.
    They were created in the era of the Crusades with the aim of "freeing the Holy Sepulcher from the hands of the infidels", the end of the 11th and the entire 12th century lasted an active fuss, well pumping out unnecessary passionaries of Europe to this front.
    What is characteristic - the initial idea to organize a Crusade through church agitation arose at the request of the Basileus of Byzantium to help against the Seljuk Turks ... they helped, even the fact that in 1204, at the instigation of the blind doge of Venice, Enrique Dondolo captured and plundered Constantinople itself. They asked for "American help", they say.
    The main goal - ended, if in short - unsuccessfully, the Arabs deafly seized and held the territories of the Holy Land, eliminating all Christian small kingdoms, except for the island ones, and knightly orders, powerful organized crime groups of that time were left without tasks - well, do not go home?
    The Templars went into the banking business, but some others were invited by the Hungarian king to guard the borders from the pagans. True, for some reason he didn't really like them, and he quickly asked them "to go out with things." The army had quite a serious one, so I had to agree.
    The Poles sheltered them, settling them on the borders with pagan Lithuania, Zhmudya and so on - the goal is the same, and in general they wanted to clean up these tribes, baptize them and subjugate them with someone else's hands.
    Here the crusaders settled for a long time, built fortresses and castles and began to run over, and not only on the "pagans", but also quite ancient megacities of Pskov and Novgorod in those places.
    So, when Poles still beckon and ask for "another US base" - they have a traditional ancient folk craft. Although then a lot of the same Germans gulped, but here, again ...
  26. faterdom
    faterdom 25 November 2021 21: 15
    +1
    Quote: nikvic46
    The Tatar-Mongol yoke lasted 240 years. During this time, we could have had home-grown kulibins, watchmakers, and cultural figures, and he had thrown us 240 years back. Of course, any occupation can be justified, but even ancient Uzbekistan was ahead of us. Who managed to give a worthy rebuff to Genghis Khan.

    Some of the subjects of the Khan of the Golden Horde Uzbek, in this position since 1313, began to be called Uzbeks, so he could not give a rebuff to his ancestor Genghis Khan, who lived 100 years earlier, and to whom, to himself? He became famous for adopting Islam as a state religion.
    But Genghis Khan defeated the huge Khorezm kingdom, which was much larger than modern Uzbekistan, and although it resisted, it was not successful.
    1. Shahno
      Shahno 25 November 2021 21: 24
      +1
      // even ancient Uzbekistan //
      Yes, this is strong .... just the same Uzbeks were there.
      We have a questionable confirmation of the kingdom of Solomon, because there is not enough evidence, but here it turned out.
  27. Zvonarev
    Zvonarev 26 November 2021 11: 21
    +2
    the fact of the capture of Constantinople by the Muslim Turks in 1435

    Apparently, I studied poorly in a Russian school, for some reason I thought that in 1453. Or is it due to the transition to a new calendar that it ran for 18 years ...
  28. grassyknollgunner
    grassyknollgunner 26 November 2021 11: 32
    +2
    Without underestimating the significance of the military victories of Russian weapons and the subsequent propaganda (in a very good sense of the word) significance of these victories for the growth of the people's self-awareness, it should be noted that that these threats in the XIII century. in no way can be compared with the Mongols.

    For clarity, most of the Tatars' punitive expeditions were carried out at the request of the Russian princes in the context of internecine wars. Examples are Nevryuev's army and Dudenev's army.
  29. Illanatol
    Illanatol 26 November 2021 13: 49
    +1
    Quote: Mihaylov
    and History is eternal! Sorry for the banality!


    History may be eternal, but the interests of the elite change, as sometimes the elite itself. And in "Eternal History" it is necessary to make amendments, otherwise the owners can cut the grandmother. And even the most venerable historians want to eat, and the food is delicious.
  30. nonsense
    nonsense 26 November 2021 20: 21
    -1
    :) Or maybe there was no contradiction in faith between the Russian and German princes? Those. Russia (its "administrative" part) successfully adopted Christianity from Rome from those very German bishops and increasingly entered the orbit of papal Rome. But here the "Mongols" (in a simple way - the mercenary Byzantine troops) pulled in and established the power of the Byzantine Church in Russia. And taxes! Tithing! - Church? The new government in Russia also found its followers and allies - the same Vladimir-Suzdal princes like Alexander Nevsky. So, until 1917, this very yoke (of the Greek priests) could not be thrown off ... And now we are actively returning under it ... Vorie in the form of Russian businessmen and politicians just love to make contributions and gifts directly to Greek monasteries ... And do not forget their own ...
    1. Illanatol
      Illanatol 27 November 2021 08: 53
      0
      Quote: nespich
      But here the "Mongols" (in a simple way - the mercenary Byzantine troops) pulled in and established the power of the Byzantine Church in Russia.


      And who hired these "Byzantines"?
      And nothing that Byzantium itself was occupied by the crusaders?
      Apparently, the mercenaries had to do it, since they flooded to Russia, instead of liberating their native Constantinople?
      1. nonsense
        nonsense 27 November 2021 13: 22
        0
        we know little about Byzantium and its real history. It is known for certain that all Byzantium was not occupied. And already in 1261 the Byzantines drove these crusaders out of Constantinople. Is it not with the help of the so-called. "Mongols"? The "Mongols" established (restored?) The power of Byzantium over Russia and Central Asia - they expanded it, Byzantium, the tax base. They were crushing trade routes. Hence the means for the war against crusaders from all over Europe.
        1. Illanatol
          Illanatol 27 November 2021 13: 31
          -1
          Quote: nespich
          It is known for certain that all Byzantium was not occupied.


          But Constantinople was captured, as was the control of the Straits.

          And already in 1261 the Byzantines drove these crusaders out of Constantinople. Is it not with the help of the so-called. "Mongols"?


          Yes. Moreover, it was in the interests of the Horde people, who wanted to get out of the care of their "Western curators" in this way. Constantinople was the link between Rome and the European colonial cities on the shores of the Black Sea. Breaking this "chain" made the Horde virtually independent.
          The West will try to regain control of the Horde, in particular, in the episode with Mamai, but will fail. It is characteristic that after his double defeat Mamai will run not to the distant Mongolian steppes, but to Kafa, to his immediate masters, the Genoese. Well, where else to run to the "fighting slave", if not to his curators? And they will do with Mamai, as the gentlemen do with slaves who have failed the important mission of their master.
  31. Oleg Zorin
    Oleg Zorin 26 November 2021 23: 03
    +1
    The dispute "which is better" - western or eastern expansion, is meaningless for the 13th century. There was no force in the 13th century that could resist the Mongols. There is no doubt that the Mongols' advance to the West was hampered solely by the internal Mongolian problems.
  32. Elturisto
    Elturisto 2 December 2021 13: 46
    0
    After the phrase, the Latvian tribes gave up reading. The author should not write, but read ...