"The brigade will not even leave the basing point": in South Africa on the combat capability of the troops

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Against the backdrop of a deteriorating international situation, the South African army is undergoing profound changes. At the same time, they are being led by Cuban and Vietnamese experts who have proposed doctrines that have caused a "flurry of emotions" in the local press.

Against this background, the discussion about the concept of "modern brigade [ground forces]" unfolded. The local press turned their questions to local analyst Helmoed Heitman

As noted in the publication DefenseWeb, he opposes plans to turn the brigades into a "headquarters with auxiliary units" [apparently, a reference to the reorganization of the US Army Ground divisions in the late 2000s into "component headquarters" designed to become deployable formations]. He sees "deeply cutting meaning" in other changes that are soon to be expected for the South African army.

For example, on the basis of the 43rd and 46th army brigades and thanks to the dissolution of the airborne regiment, which frees up 6 companies, one additional brigade is created in each division, which is required by the development strategy of the Ministry of Defense. As a result, 3 divisions are formed, consisting of 3 brigades each. At the same time, some of the subunits will include the troops of the "reserve element" to ensure "local control over the territories." But the "reserve" should be limited only to gaining experience, "doing only routine work."

All military equipment is supposed to be transferred to only one mechanized brigade. This concerns tanks, BMP, armored personnel carrier, air defense.

No motorized brigade should have armored vehicles, artillery or air defense

- consider the generals.

As Lieutenant General Lawrence Mbata explains, "the key to the health of the army" has long been lost. Heitman argues that "it's fixable" - but there are no funds to equip even one brigade. In his words, after the 1970s, the situation became "irreparable."

There is no one in the army to move the brigade from base A to B, let alone deploy or reinforce its units.

- the author thinks about the combat readiness of the troops, believing that the maximum will be able to move two units during the demonstration exercises.

In his words, for officers, all combat practice was reduced to semantic maneuvering:

This is not a criticism of the officers - if there is no funding for a full-scale exercise, all they can do is master the map [of the terrain] and use a computer game.

Comments

[Murmur 55]

I don’t understand why the citizens of the same country fight in different ways, some in slippers on bare feet with the AK of the first series stand to the last, while others in a modern "body kit" at the sight of the first on "skis"? And with the technique of the problem, since there are no good sponsors, they are not interested in this country YET.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

There is only one problem "one has nothing to lose, the second has something to lose"!

[Diverter]

RI in the period 1917 - 1924 As an example to you.

[cat Rusich]

Quote: Saboteur

RI in the period 1917 - 1924 As an example to you.

The Russian Empire was transformed into a "republic" in February 1917.
At the same time, RIA, the Russian Imperial Army, was also transformed.
There is a historical assertion that when the redistribution of land holdings began in the Russian Republic, many soldiers from the peasants began to leave the Russian-German front in order to personally participate in the redistribution of land plots.
During the Civil War of 1918-21, the composition of the armies of the warring parties was varied - from volunteers to those who were forcibly mobilized.

[Diverter]

your information is absolutely correct and I know it. I meant when the poor fought with the rich and even in families brother went against brother.

[cat Rusich]

Quote: Saboteur

... I meant when the poor fought with the rich and even in families brother went against brother.

Simple "when the poor fought with the rich ... and even in families brother went against brother" - how to understand ??? - "poor brother" fought with "rich brother" ...
In Ingushetia, physically, the number of people who could be classified as "rich" was several% (within 10%).
Maybe the "line" ran between "has property" (land allotment, apartment, etc.) and those "landless" (only a hut, living space in a barrack, apartment building, etc.), "horseless" (who do not have their own tools - a peasant without a horse, a worker at a factory, a servant from an owner or employer (laborers).

[bk316]

Maybe the "line" ran between "owns property" (land plot, apartment, etc.) and those "landless"

And so it went on.

[Orsis338]

Why do they need an army, PMCs are successfully chasing Islamists in neighboring countries
Friendship and gum with black-faced neighbors after the abolition of apartheid

[Murmur 55]

so PMCs are there today and tomorrow they will outbid and then they will remain completely with a bare fifth point ??? It seems that South Africa has something to take (well, if I'm not mistaken) in terms of minerals

[Catfish]

... in terms of minerals

Diamonds of the famous De Beers.

[evgen1221]

You don't have to worry about these rubniks, having smelled fried debirs, the combatant army of any state will hire for protection without any PMCs.

[hohol95]

The "Red Threat" disappeared ... and they stopped giving money for the army from the "sponsors" !!!

[Catfish]

And they did not have a sponsor, they served themselves.

[hohol95]

Konstantin! I beg of you...
Rhodesia and South Africa were that self-sufficient?
By 1972, $ 10 billion had been invested in the mining industry by overseas investors.
But in 1984, the US decided them (for one reason they know) to impose sanctions against South Africa.
How WikiWiki will come due to various kinds of sanctions South Africa from 1980 to 1985 lost 9 billion dollars!

[Catfish]

I meant the army, not industry.

[hohol95]

If there is no money for industry, then where will they come from for the army!
And despite the bans on the sale of guns, the South African army did not live in poverty!
And I had no problems with spare parts and ammunition!
For example, the police.
There was a ban on the sale of police equipment and weapons - the Italian armory Beretta sold a hunting modification of the RS202P pump-action shotgun to the South African police. Gorgeous for the police too.
They didn’t sell the RS202M2 army / police model.
Money loves silence ...
And there is no money - there is no army, industry, and so on ...

[Catfish]

And now? De Beers exists and works, but the army, once the best on the continent, no longer exists.

[hohol95]

De Beers ... Just a question, but the De Beers leadership "is on the same positions" or, in the current conditions, they actually DO NOT NEED the country?
Having thrown a small "bone" into the budget and local "leaders", they may well pay basic taxes in any afshore.

[Catfish]

I don’t know, I didn’t get to know the DeBeers or their products.

[Aviator_]

It seems that South Africa has something to take (well, if I'm not mistaken) in terms of minerals

Uranium, gold, diamonds and coal belong to TNCs, they only pay some kind of tax to the government, and that's all. The country is very poor. So about minerals - "Everything has already been stolen before us!" (Operation Y)

[Eugene-Eugene]

Cape Town, port terminal owners, cargo.

[fruc]

...... all they can do is master the map [terrain] and use a computer game.

You can involve the army in the elimination of emergencies. Or arrange endless parade ground concerts with the participation of tourists. At the same time, they will increase the tourist attractiveness and replenish the state treasury.

[toha124]

You are right, PMCs can also drive the barmaley. But the world clearly smelled of gunpowder. South Africa, although weakened over the past half century, is a state. With their own interests. Apparently, the locals also do not exclude a "correct" war. Trying to get ready.

[faterdom]

all they can do is master the map and use a computer game.

I wonder which of the "Total War" is being played? And for whom?
And this is the strongest army on the continent 30 years ago? Helping Pakistan Build Nuclear Weapons?

[Geofiz]

They go to the cops chasing ... or right now the BF is new, there you can mix up 64 by 64, and even with technique, they go there to train ...

[Catfish]

Here are the obvious "charms" of the victory over the terrible apartheid.

[Cat]

victories over terrible apartheid

Actually, in South Africa, no one defeated him - just apartheid changed color. Democratic values ​​have won, the consequences of such a victory in many countries look approximately the same:

[Catfish]

In general, and specifically with regard to South Africa, you are one hundred percent right. And my friend in the late eighties left to work in De Beers as a simple dump truck driver, how he scolded Mandela and his company on his return, you will hear, he became a terrible racist.

[dauria]

, listen, became a terrible racist.

Well, recently they showed a white settlement in South Africa. Not a village, but a company stronghold. Trenches, machine gun nests, a thorn, a shooting range for training residents. An old woman with a Colt in a holster stomps to the store.
Hey short-barreled lovers, you need to go there. Grace... And it's fun when Negroes with Kalashnikovs hunt you for sneakers or a cell phone. Sorry, not blacks, but African-Africans.

[Flooding]

Quote: dauria

Hey short-barreled lovers, you need to go there

Do you doubt that the stubby barrels provide safety for the Boer descendants?
I'm sure they feel like God in their bosom.

[dauria]

sure they feel like God in their bosom

I don’t know, I’m judging by documentary reporting. You can shoot as you like. But the impression was that all whites, who had somewhere to escape, had already left South Africa.

[Aviator_]

Not all. Here is the aunt - the rector of the University of Pretoria

[Catfish]

For sneakers or cell phone Negros

Well, we also have "fun" in this regard, the negroes do not take off their sneakers yet, but the faithful guest workers are frolicking with might and main.

[bk0010]

Quote: dauria

Well, recently they showed a white settlement in South Africa. Not a village, but a company stronghold.

I don't know what they showed you. I have been to Pretoria several times, there are spiritual fences there (electricity, spikes and broken glass above are quite common), but I have not seen anything similar to what you described there. They don't go there with weapons.

[Diverter]

strange all the same. White can be called white, but black cannot be called black. Have come up with another stupidity.
They are negroes and only negroes. They call us paleness and so on.?
As for short-barreled fans. You don’t confuse it with scrambled eggs. I am sure that when you and your wife, after the performance, decide to take a walk in the fresh air tomorrow, and from around the corner you will be attacked by several people or a group (as they write in the news), but in fact a gang of immigrants. And they will rob you and rape your spouse, then I am 100% sure that at that moment you will sincerely regret that you do not have a short-haul. Anyone. And you will not even think about the fact that you will then be sent to prison, even though you defended yourself and your wife. Every citizen needs a short-barrel as a means of protection. Just do not need to bring it to the point of absurdity, when machine guns are allowed as in a mattress country. Armed criminals, if they need a weapon, always find a weapon somewhere.

[tralflot1832]

Oh, it was a good country. Well, part of the population does not want to work, they have enough benefits.

[Catfish]

Yes, the liberals have ruined another country.

[tralflot1832]

I feel sorry for the whites, how they bonded their de Klerk. The apartede canceled and that's enough, why give the power. So they said, like Gorby, he wanted to get the Nobel Prize. So, like on November 11, he introduced himself. I suspect more than one button accordion has been torn.

[Knell wardenheart]

South Africa was ditched not by the liberals, South Africa was ditched by the fact that one race with one type of reproduction lived side by side with another race, with another type of reproduction, being initially in the minority, but at the same time firmly believing that such a situation would be unshakable, like white exclusivity rights. Here's just that. And just like that, nothing happens in the world - at some point, whites are faced with the fact that their demography does NOT allow them to "take out everything" - there are not enough people who want to be military, police, petty officials, so that at the same time they plow the industry, develop innovations in the countryside household, etc. In short, South Africa came to what the Roman Empire came to when it was FORCED to start barbarizing itself. If you live more or less richly, the number of those who want to kill themselves at dirty work decreases - you need those willing to do it with fervor. You include them in the cycle of relationships, reluctantly, you start DEPENDING on them, and they understand it. First, they will tolerate, and then they will give you a chain of small ultimatums, which seem to be logical - rights are there, freedoms are some minor, minor conveniences. And the titular population will support this - after all, there are a lot of vanilla romantics who sacredly believe that man is a brother to man, and still sensitive and everyone will sing and join hands in friendly ecstasy. The oppressed groups will immediately use the rights they have obtained "to the fullest" - they will occupy more niches, cling to an even larger number of old rules that are inconvenient for them. Their role will grow even more - the dependence of titulars on them will become even higher. At some point, they will come with a jerk to equality - but not even to equality, but to a FORCED EQUATION. Quotas of places and positions based on race and other amusing things.
I am leading all this - that this process, unfortunately, is natural and is not at all directly related to the liberals, etc. This is a competitive economic process. Wealth breeds laziness, laziness breeds dependence, dependence breeds weakness, prolonged weakness is the prologue of defeat. The South African fairy tale could not have a "good end" - the only more or less acceptable option is practically a general cross-breeding, for example, Lat. America.

[Catfish]

Good comment.
But I was referring to the boycott declared by the Western democracies to "apartheid".

[Eugene-Eugene]

Come on, whites still have most of the land in South Africa, despite the laws of the equation in terms of c-lands. There is a law for the work of the agricultural sector of any country in any era - the concentration of land. The Russian nobles also went through this, if at the beginning of the 17th century there were 2-3 villages for each, then by the end of the century there were 2-3 of them per village. Hence the simplicity of the translation under Peter the eternal spear.

[Knell wardenheart]

The very fact of such "lawmaking" kakbe hints in which direction the balance has shifted) And most importantly, if necessary, it gives the right to get to the bottom of someone, "African Africans", to raise a fuss like BLM in the USA, start raging, smashing, burning, etc. Once, twice, and the judges will already think, "Well, what a hell of it, White won't push it, let's make a decision in Black's favor, there will be less noise." Unfortunately, all this works this way - because, alas, different environments. It's like with Islamic radicals - in one environment to put on explosives and go to smash everything in jibza is the norm and even heroism of the type. In a different environment, it is game, hardcore and madness. How can the laws of the second environment scare such representatives of the first?) Yes, nothing)) The same is with Africans - from the point of view of the environment of white people, it is UNACCEPTABLE to consistently and harshly suppress the so-called "black redistribution", different bad pictures like Auschwitz or zigging fascists. And blacks will not have such pictures in their heads when they go to burn or carry off some white farmer - they have other pictures, more utilitarian. Differences Wednesday - different views, and for the life of me - they will remain different. Values ​​are different, and the value of human life is different, and the historical experience - that of books and of ancestors - is also different. But let's say, hypothetically, we give them really equal rights - then what? After all, they do not have SUCH civilizational and social prerequisites as the whites, they do not know how to plan and negotiate with each other like whites. This is not in their historical experience or in the experience of their ancestors. And when they see how white people will do it calmly and organically, they will perceive it negatively, just as negatively many people perceive a similar culture that exists in the Jewish diaspora. That is, even in formally equal conditions, discrimination can NOT be eliminated until complete destruction-assimilation of the subjects of discrimination - the discriminated and discriminated. A diaspora can be digested and reforged in small portions - but when there are two large, culturally and ethnically heterogeneous diasporas, this does not work. Everyone has their own truth and everyone is ready to commit a crime for this truth.

[Eugene-Eugene]

This is all nonsense. Caesar suffered because of the bet on the Galorim aristocracy, because the commodity sector then moved to Provence and coastal Spain, from where, incidentally, Pompey drew legions. Then commodification put forward Africa to the first roles, from there African emperors. Then - Greece. Chot then culture and heritage did not play a role. As it is now. Give the conditions - and the Eskimo will become the builder of the pyramids.

[Storog dvornik]

In those days, a white man who came to live in South Africa was paid either 5000 or 10000 in dollars (according to rumors), for this money you could buy an apartment in Moscow ...
And for weeding a garden near the house, a fine could be slapped with the words "For this work we have blacks" ...
Well, when the blacks came to power, thanks to the UN, guys in loincloths came from the selva to the cities, made toilets from lift shafts in skyscrapers, and very quickly they filled them ...

[bk0010]

Quote: Gato

the consequences of such a victory in many countries look approximately the same:

This is a camp of large numbers of blacks. The locals live pretty well. And they work, by the way.

[alexmach]

And this is the strongest army on the continent 30 years ago? Helping Pakistan Build Nuclear Weapons?

Nuclear weapons are not created by the army. They still have very good crafts, their military-industrial complex presents.

[Diverter]

I apologize wildly, but in the 80s, during exercises, we ran through the fields and forests and an officer ran alongside and "chewed" a map. At the battalion headquarters, officers also sat over a map and waited for our radio message. Having received the information with a pencil, they drew geometric figures, etc. and so on. In the 90s, being an officer, I no longer ran with the PKK (only for this, Glory to the Gods!))), But I "chewed" the map. Now more and more command and control of the troops goes to the computer. I suppose it will look like a toy in the not too distant future.
Perhaps the South African army is ahead of the rest of the planet and has reached this level?))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) )

[Alexey RA]

Quote: faterdom

And this is the strongest army on the continent 30 years ago? Helping Pakistan Build Nuclear Weapons?

And she fought with the very Cubans who are now restoring it.

Justifying Cuba's participation in car repairs, Defense Minister Mapisa-Nkakula said that at the Army Support Base (ASB) Western Cape at the beginning of the Thusano project (as Cuban assistance to the South African armed forces is denoted), the serviceability of equipment was 35%. and currently the serviceability of equipment at the base is 84%.
Marchesi's party colleague, MP Cobus Marais, who deals with defense issues and veterans of the armed forces, the Minister of Defense said that the Cubans have repaired more than 11000 vehicles in six years of work on the Thusano project.
Defense Minister Mapisa-Nkakula told the MP that this year Cuba will be paid just over 9,5 million rand (about $ 660) under the contract. This is significantly less than expenditures in previous years - over R274 million (up to $ 20 million) in 2018, R252 million in 2020 and over R170 million in 2017. Cubans serving in the armed forces of South Africa have VIP guards, the cost of living and food for which over the six years of Thusano project amounted to 2,6 million rand.
The Cuban contingent, in addition to directly performing its many tasks in the three branches of the South African armed forces, is also engaged in training. According to the response from the Ministry of Defense, 1386 South African servicemen were trained in various programs under the Thusano project, including 319 received "official qualifications", and 483 were returned to their units and work in them.

© bmpd
However, such somersaults in those parts will not surprise anyone - after the former South African servicemen, who joined the notorious EO PMC, reorganized the defeated units of the Angolan army and fought on the side of the official government against their recent allies.

[militarist63]

all they can do is master the map and use a computer game.

Cool!

[Murmur 55]

And people are sincerely surprised why the armies of terrorists so easily take such countries under control.

[voyaka uh]

The South African army under apartheid, like the rest of the country, was divided along racial lines.
Command, senior officers - mostly British and a little - Boers.
Junior officers and sergeants are Boers.
The soldiers are Boers, and a little British, and black Zulus (in different divisions.
When Black won, everything got confused.
But the British were in command for a long time, and the army held out. Then the command went black. Officers from the ruling party appeared: from the Khosa and Sutu tribes.
They are at knives with the Zulu. And the army began to degrade.
Together with the whole country.

[Geofiz]

How is that??? They prove their superiority in everything to the whole world! Everyone is forced to stand on the knee))) and you are so about black ...

[tralflot1832]

Under apartheid, the police had fun who would shoot more blacks. And the Negroes had fun, to put a tire with gasoline on their shoulders and set fire to someone. And how they fought among themselves selflessly, so that the witnesses got it. no machine gun.

[Private SA]

Yes, in Angola, the guys from South Africa and our guys successfully created problems in the 1980s.
And now their Cubans, who were against them, are also teaching them to fight?

[Catfish]

in Angola, the guys from South Africa and our guys successfully created problems in the 1980s.

I heard from our "Angolans", they said that the Rhodesian special forces were also quite good at the time.

[Waterways 672]

Quote: Private SA

And now their Cubans, who were against them, are also teaching them to fight?

The Cubans have a lot to learn. In the 70s in Angola, they showed themselves to be tough fighters. There are many of them and they were killed; there is a Cuban cemetery in Luanda. When we were on the BS, we saw three dry cargo ships in the inner roadstead of Luanda - "Elpis", "Pistis" and "Kalmar". They were guarded by Cubans. When the turmoil began in Angola, the Portuguese sent these bulk carriers with weapons. The Cubans intercepted them, the captains and assistants were shot, the bulk carriers were unloaded and placed on the roadstead under their protection. Some time had to pass there, after these ships became the property of Angola. Our advisers, let's say, were in Cuban uniforms there.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Private SA

Yes, in Angola, the guys from South Africa and our guys successfully created problems in the 1980s.
And now their Cubans, who were against them, are also teaching them to fight?

Nothing strange for those places. There such transitions are the norm of life.

Already in June of the same year, representatives of the Angolan Army General Staff began negotiations with Eben Barlow on a further expansion of cooperation in the field of defense and state security at a ranch in northern Namibia. This time it was a question of how to raise the level of combat training of the entire Angolan army! Naturally, the EO could not deploy the required number of training centers staffed by instructors in a short time, and therefore, at the first stage, its leadership was offered to increase the combat capability of the 16 motorized brigade, which was once the elite formations of the Angolan armed forces.

A certain comic of the situation was that in 1988, the 16th brigade was defeated on the Lomba River by the South Africans, the 32nd battalion played a significant role then (as mentioned above, Barlow served in it), and practically all the rest of the personnel of the EO, a significant part of which consisted from among the former military personnel of South Africa, he recently trained the Unitans and the "wild geese" of all stripes who fought with them in the fight against the Angolan government forces.

© VO. Angolan confrontation, year 1994. The use of Soviet-made aircraft in southern Africa.

[bukhach]

- but there are no funds to equip even one

Here is the key, we sing romances without finances, I remember well our army of the mid-90s, I also breathed on its side.

[76SSSR]

Africa ... The best years, your mother ... The Sherishama tribe, yucca and so on ... I live in memories, worked in Africa as a military adviser for over 10 years ... We did not make revolutions, we resisted them ...

[Vasily Onischuk]

"No motorized brigade should have armored vehicles, artillery or air defense." And why is such a team needed then? Moreover, in modern conditions? Once the strongest army in Africa. However, South Africa has not fought with anyone for a long time. And, apparently, the politicians decided that there was no need to invest a lot of money in the development of their Armed Forces.

[unhappy]

The division includes one conditionally motorized brigade and two brigades a la Mujahideen on carts. And once the South African army was quite a formidable force

[Diverter]

maybe they think so, because there is a theater of operations - impassable for the most part for technology?

[unhappy]

Jungle, swamps, mountains - this is not about South Africa. It seems like a steppe, semi-desert, all sorts of hills. The climate is not bad, initially Holland will move there and voluntarily by the way, unlike Australia)

[Diverter]

I didn't have to go there, but judging by Yandex maps, there are not enough steppes and semi-deserts, but there are plenty of jungles and mountains. And in the mountains it is better to have more donkeys than tanks))))

[unhappy]

The jungle is a rainforest, Google says that in South Africa in the east there are few subtropics (subtropical forests) and plateaus (plateau). The rest is semi-desert, savanna (steppes) and deserts. Go and go

[Diverter]

And the dog is with them! Then it is necessary to offer them our equipment from storage. And if they have no finances, then let them give the MTO for the fleet with an airfield free of charge for 200 years)))

[Mountain shooter]

What they organized there was not an army at all. Why did they have only the Zulu warriors, and drove all the neighbors under the skirting board, but with the arrival of the Whites, they had to put up with it, although they kicked.
And now ... practically destroyed the country ... these negros. No matter what they start, it's always a mess ...

[alexmach]

It is significant .. but we still laugh with the BTR-82a

[Diverter]

I think only fools laugh. BTR 60-70-82 i.e. a military bus in fact, its purpose for transporting a squad on any roads, and under bulletproof armor from all partisans, and also with machine guns - excellent technology. Sometimes the really badly trained officers try to use it instead of the tank, then yes, the result is not very good.

[alexmach]

Well, in fact, in these conversations, they also cited such an argument that, according to the regulations, the tasks of a motorized rifle platoon on an armored personnel carrier and an infantry fighting vehicle do not differ in any way either in defense or in an offensive.

[Diverter]

certainly not different. but the armored personnel carrier is still a movable machine-gun point or not, and the BMP is a movable cannon and an ATGM, and the question is not in the task at hand, but in the competent use of weapons and equipment in the performance of the task.

[Freeman]

Judging by these shots, the idea of ​​the Zulu leader Chak with the organization of women's units was not forgotten in the South African army.
And based on their "equipment", they do not really need armored vehicles - they have other "military equipment".
I think that many of their opponents, having met such fighters on the battlefield, will gladly agree with them. surrender surrender.

[media = https: //youtu.be/Cw9rN7ha8BU]

Shl. That the video is not being inserted - https://youtu.be/Cw9rN7ha8BU

[acetophenone]

Oh ..... These are very, very dangerous troops, yes ... Don't get captured like that! Okay, if they just shoot. But they can even die for ... heal.

[Castro Ruiz]

The brigade will have armored vehicles, artillery, anti-tank and air defense equipment taken away and given out sabers and alabardis. :)

[Private SA]

Quote: Sea Cat

Rhodesian special forces were also quite good at the time.

Oh yes, we were "More" in Mozambique. Released after graduating from VTUZ and serving in the army
engineer at the "near-defense" plant. I walk around the shop for a morning inspection of the equipment.
I inspect machines with tank wheels, roller bearings, torsion shafts,
tank upper swing hatches for the installation of DShK. And the thought comes
that somewhere I have already seen it. Illumination - "International Panorama" with Bovin.
Old conflict Ethiopia - Somalia. And the products of the factory, across the Ogaden Desert
scattered after detonation of ammunition.