Military Review

German press: One factor unaccounted for by the command did not give the German troops to capture Moscow in 1941

294
German press: One factor unaccounted for by the command did not give the German troops to capture Moscow in 1941

German troops in 1941 stood on the threshold of Moscow and were already preparing to capture the capital of the Soviet Union, but one factor intervened in the course of the war, which was not taken into account by the German generals. Writes about this by the author of an article for the German edition of Die Welt.


Germany planned to end the war against the Soviet Union that began on June 22, 1941, as soon as possible, writes Sven Kellerhoff. Despite the losses of German troops that followed in the first three months of the war, Berlin was already preparing for the capture of the Russian capital.

On September 78, the German command began Operation Typhoon, the task of which was to defeat the Red Army near Moscow, which had suffered even greater losses since the beginning of the war. As part of this operation, the Germans were going to "break the backbone" of Soviet Russia, as Colonel-General Franz Halder wrote. The Germans concentrated XNUMX divisions, numbering almost two million people.

Initially, everything went as planned at the German headquarters, the author notes. The German troops managed to create several boilers near Vyazma and Bryansk, Halder had already planned the capture of Moscow, but everything changed in an instant - the autumn rains began, turning the roads into impassable mud. Tank the columns, instead of rushing to the Russian capital, got stuck on the off-road, the rear fell behind, the offensive stopped.

Thus, Kellerhoff is sure that the rains unaccounted for by the German command did not allow the Germans to continue their attack on Moscow and capture the Russian capital. At the same time, the Russians took full advantage of the respite and put their units in order, preparing to repel the German offensive. The weather factor played a decisive role in the battle of Moscow, he sums up.
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  1. tralflot1832
    tralflot1832 14 November 2021 15: 56
    +122
    We know how they defeated the whole of Europe, but we also know what they got in the USSR. misses.
    1. mitroha
      mitroha 14 November 2021 16: 10
      +71
      As they say about dancers .....
      1. fruc
        fruc 14 November 2021 19: 15
        +34
        But good roads lead to Berlin, you can move with the breeze.
      2. Paranoid50
        Paranoid50 15 November 2021 11: 20
        +12
        Quote: Mitroha
        As they say about dancers .....

        Comparing the facts, we come to the conclusion: the same people dance badly and wave their fists after a fight. Well, yes, the classics of the genre: "Oh, it's a pity, the weather has shredded all the raspberries, otherwise we would have carried them all out, then brought them back in and took them out again." fellow laughing
        Here's to you, grandma, and ordnung uber alles, yeah. And again, comparing numerous facts, we come to the conclusion that the gloomy Teutonic genius approached the development of the "Plan of Barbarossa" with an extremely scarce database. More precisely, the data was stupid, because the intelligence did work, but only a small part went into work, and the main body of information was still not taken into account and analyzed, which eventually came out in 1945 through the Berlin metro at the Tiergarten station ... The weather, they say? Nishtyak, let's say. Then why the devil did not allow them to use the meteorological services in order to have relatively long-term weather forecasts in various parts of the potential theater of operations? Or did their diplomats living in the USSR not report what it was like here in such seasons as early spring, late autumn and, of course, the entire winter period? Oh, yes, a blitzkrieg in a couple of months, and all that ... And, apparently, they did not have a plan "B" at that time. Here he is, the classic Russian "maybe", or rather his Germanic cover version. They tried to defeat the Russians with the help of their own traditional weapons ... It didn't work out, it didn't work out ... Truly, what is good for a Russian, then death for a German. This is one of our "braces", and a foreigner, by definition, will be able to effectively use this asset, because a genetic code is needed to run the program.
        And finally, to the current German "analysts", slightly correcting Shnurov's opus:
        No hysterics, these fucking tears
        All you need is a weather forecast ...

        laughing laughing laughing
        1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
          Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 15 November 2021 13: 09
          +6
          The Abwehr, from head to toe, as they say, was a branch of British intelligence and therefore shove all nonsense to the Fuehrer. This factor was more important than bad weather. Although, the capital was saved by the courage of a Soviet soldier and a militia, and not by mudslides, frosts, miscalculations in supplies, mistakes of the Fuhrer and his deputies!
        2. zenion
          zenion 15 November 2021 16: 47
          +4
          Paranoid50. Quiet horror! You might think that in the summer, neither in Ukraine nor in Russia it rains, moreover torrential and such that there were floods, everything was flooded. But it was on the approach to Moscow that the Lord unleashed a flood on the German troops, and sent grace on the Red Army. Temperature plus twenty degrees, sunshine and all this for the Bolsheviks who do not believe in God. And for those with buckles with an embossed inscription "God is with us" unleashed all the rage. In addition, several generals spread the cards upside down and the Nazis had to retreat. Then Hitler at the headquarters realized that something was wrong with the cards and he gave the order to turn the cards and enter with small trump cards, and they stopped, as much as one hundred and two hundred kilometers. from Moscow. But before that they saw how the trams were turning around on the outskirts of Moscow. But they were afraid to jump into them, suddenly these trams go to Siberia.
          1. isv000
            isv000 17 November 2021 23: 36
            0
            Quote: zenion
            Then Hitler at the headquarters realized that something was wrong with the cards and he gave the order to turn the cards over and enter with small trump cards, and they stopped, as much as one hundred and two hundred kilometers. from Moscow.

            At Hitler's headquarters, everyone is a little sick!
      3. Zug
        Zug 16 November 2021 17: 58
        0
        Better read this And only pompous phrases alone. Now, if you master this, then many of the difficulties of the offensive become clearer.




    2. Real Pilot
      Real Pilot 14 November 2021 16: 14
      +93
      Oh well...
      They were stopped not by the weather, but by the heroism of the Soviet people, who stood to the last, defending the Motherland! The victory of a great people.

      My great-grandfather died near Moscow, I have the right to tell them this! soldier
      And not for the first time he beat the Germans - he became a knight of two St. George's Crosses for the First World War.
      1. Kerensky
        Kerensky 14 November 2021 18: 17
        -25
        They were stopped not by the weather, but by the heroism of the Soviet people, who stood to the last, defending the Motherland!

        Yes, and a hundred times more, yes, but .. if you go into conspiracy theories a little, you get a riddle. Let me explain. The Germans actually took Moscow, but stopped at a certain line, even where there was no enemy. Six, six power plants, being in the German occupation, continued to generate energy, which went to Moscow.
        1. Puzoter
          Puzoter 15 November 2021 08: 12
          +7
          Why, then, did the weather not stop our counteroffensive? They drove 200 km in the same weather and the same snowy off-road.
        2. avg avg
          avg avg 15 November 2021 10: 12
          +2
          Well, it's so clear! Civilized and cultured Germans did not interrupt the power supply to Moscow, thus taking care of Muscovites! So that those do not die! They were compassionate Germans.
        3. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
          Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 15 November 2021 13: 13
          -2
          By the way, the battle for Moscow is full of other mysteries as well. This was voiced, but there were no answers, and no.
          1. zenion
            zenion 15 November 2021 16: 56
            0
            As it is, there are no answers. In addition to minefields, there were also fields with high voltage electric wires. In some places the wires were connected to barbed wire in some places invisible. As one captain wrote that there is no one ahead, there are no cities or other settlements. They sent intelligence not returned. We decided to increase the number of scouts to ten people. They crawled and suddenly stopped. We realized that they were killed, but did not hear the shots. Is it God's punishment? Then the SS men decided, they did not believe in God. The SS company was killed. They sent me to check if there were any mines. Then the field was turned off. All climbed up and found nothing. Let's go and go. When they saw the Red Army tanks ahead, retreat to the positions that were equipped. Many died again. Thus, until the Germans figured out what was the matter, three days passed.
            1. shonsu
              shonsu 16 November 2021 00: 58
              +2
              Nonsense. I got under such tension, you can feel it as you get closer to the source. Well, you can admit that someone died, but that the company and three days ... Nonsense.
              1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
                Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 16 November 2021 10: 15
                +1
                In the army, we also got into a high voltage zone once. They walked in a small column, about 25 people. And suddenly the front ones began to twitch in convulsions, some jumped out of their boots and jumped like hares. And, interestingly, we all squealed like a bird! ... Some jumped, some jumped back. Like this. Thank God, no one received an electric shock. But they did not experience it weakly.
                PS By the way, I come from the Gorky region and we have nuclear weapons nearby in the city of Sarov (this is near the Mordovian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic) in Soviet times, maybe even from the end of the 1940s. So there, around the zones where these factories, such live grids were spread on the ground. But there were warning signs on the poles. The local population knew and did not pry there - who wants death? But sometimes foreign spies were found. Naturally, it was impossible to identify the body - it looked like a baked grilled chicken ...
              2. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
                Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 16 November 2021 10: 18
                0
                I remember that I was instructed at work - it seems like it is necessary to get out of such a place, bringing both legs close and not tearing them apart, so that the so-called. "step voltage" - the potential difference between the legs. Then he will shock.
      2. YOUR
        YOUR 15 November 2021 04: 50
        +9
        That's it.
        As for the weather, it is exactly the opposite. It was hot and dry all summer. The swamps and those dried up, which gave the German command the opportunity to pass the wetlands by tank units right away. For some reason, there is silence about this.
        But when about their failures, then the rain prevented them, then the frost, then the Russian roads. It turned out that they were not ready for the cold, they were blowing their overcoats with the wind, gasoline thickens, technical fluids freeze.
        Question. Where the brains were when the attack was planned. That with their planned victory, the climate will change dramatically, warmer.
        1. Split
          Split 15 November 2021 05: 45
          +4
          Quote: YOUR
          Question. Where were the brains when the attack was planned


          So the meaning of the blitzkrieg (Operation Barbarossa) was like the capture of Moscow until mid-autumn (or rather, until the end of September)
          1. YOUR
            YOUR 15 November 2021 06: 03
            -1
            And then the climate should change?
            1. Split
              Split 15 November 2021 07: 16
              +1
              According to directive number 21, it was planned to take Moscow and reach the Astrakhan-Volga-Arkhangelsk line, destroying the surrounded troops. Because ours do not have a continuous echeloned defense, then the tank wedges bypassed our groupings and went into the operational space, and the encircled ones were already destroyed by ordinary infantry and motorized units. After reaching the border, it was planned for EMNIP to make an operational pause and in the spring to begin the seizure of the Caucasus and the Urals
              1. YOUR
                YOUR 15 November 2021 07: 26
                +3
                This is a well-known fact, people learn at school. I'm talking about something else. Here the Germans have reached the planned lines, the weather, the climate has changed. How they in the occupied territory thought to be in their uniforms. The seizure of the territory cancels the frost, so no.
                This raises the question of the adequacy of the planners. That's where they go.
                1. Split
                  Split 15 November 2021 07: 34
                  +3
                  So in Europe, due to the blitzkrieg, they got a lot of resources + free labor (prisoners and those who went over to their side). But we waged an all-out war, just as in 1812 Kutuzov destroyed everything behind him, and then when Bonaparte retreated, they had to go back along the destroyed Smolensk road. All factories were either exported or destroyed. + they did not take into account the huge partisan movement, which interfered with logistics and pulled off some of the advancing divisions. Something like this recourse
                  1. YOUR
                    YOUR 15 November 2021 07: 36
                    0
                    What is that Europe. What they will send them short fur coats, so they did from straw.
                    1. Split
                      Split 15 November 2021 07: 41
                      +2
                      Well, the Germans were not planning to conduct active DBs until spring, they planned to sit out in the warmth
                      1. YOUR
                        YOUR 15 November 2021 07: 50
                        +1
                        So is the stupidity of the planners.
                        Why on earth did they decide that there would be no resistance at all.
                        It's like with the mentally ill, they make very logical, correct conclusions, although they initially proceed from unfeasible conditions
                      2. Sanichsan
                        Sanichsan 15 November 2021 14: 31
                        -1
                        Quote: YOUR
                        So is the stupidity of the planners.

                        How can I say ... the Finns warned the Germans. sent to Berlin detailed instructions on the conduct of winter hostilities, but who will listen to them there? it's some kind of Finns ...
                        it must be said that the Germans also sent instructions to the Finns in 1942-43 on how to properly organize the defense in Karelia. wrote that their fortification lines could hold out for a maximum of a week and that in order to stop the Red Army they needed mobile reserves for counterattacks, but who would listen to these Germans? they were kicked out of Moscow with their mobile reserves ...
                        costs of Nazism you know hi they all considered themselves the smartest ...
                2. zenion
                  zenion 15 November 2021 16: 58
                  0
                  Here some shout that Leningrad had to be surrendered. Then the Germans would have the opportunity, together with the Finns, to enter the rear of Moscow and surround it. Cut off the North and cut off supplies.
                  1. YOUR
                    YOUR 16 November 2021 02: 49
                    0
                    Who shouts so stupid person is not even 100 percent but pulls for the whole thousand. Of those who are happy that the bombs of democracy are raining down on his head.
              2. Kerensky
                Kerensky 15 November 2021 17: 30
                -3
                After reaching the border, it was planned for EMNIP to make an operational pause and in the spring to begin the seizure of the Caucasus and the Urals

                Then why didn't you? If there is a plan, then open and read the required page: "To Moscow or Kiev? What is written in the plan?" It was not for nothing that Keitel and Jodl were written off based on the results of Nyurberg, although they did not go anywhere ...
        2. Pilat2009
          Pilat2009 15 November 2021 10: 07
          0
          Quote: YOUR
          That's it.
          As for the weather, it is exactly the opposite. It was hot and dry all summer. The swamps and those dried up, which gave the German command the opportunity to pass the wetlands by tank units right away. For some reason, there is silence about this.
          But when about their failures, then the rain prevented them, then the frost, then the Russian roads. It turned out that they were not ready for the cold, they were blowing their overcoats with the wind, gasoline thickens, technical fluids freeze.
          Question. Where the brains were when the attack was planned. That with their planned victory, the climate will change dramatically, warmer.

          The plans for the offensive failed in time, plus the troops from the Moscow direction were transferred to Kiev.
          1. YOUR
            YOUR 15 November 2021 10: 14
            0
            All these are known facts. But that's not what I mean. I'm talking about the Russian climate. What should he change if the Germans win? So it seems what it was and will remain so. In what clothes they had to spend the winter anyway.
        3. at84432384
          at84432384 15 November 2021 20: 17
          +2
          In the fall, 41 thaws came a month later than usual. The Germans were just lucky with the weather, otherwise they would not get to Moscow. Anyway, the final is known-45, the capture of Berlin.
          1. YOUR
            YOUR 16 November 2021 02: 53
            +2
            Now they have a favorite pastime to look for the reasons for failure. They are looking everywhere, except for the heroic resistance of the people and the fact that the Soviet command turned out to be much smarter than them.
      3. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
        Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 15 November 2021 16: 48
        +3
        Our uncle on my mother's side also defended Moscow in the people's militia division. And so he stayed there in those fields. Forever and ever. Bright memory to all these people! They died, but they defended Moscow, their homeland and country.
    3. Bshkaus
      Bshkaus 14 November 2021 16: 35
      -38
      especially concerned, muddy roads prevented them from fighting on both sides, and General Frost also did not spare both sides!

      So it is so, but not so:
      Soviet troops were delivered to the front by rail to the stations in the rear and from there on their own to the places of concentration and to the front line. The Germans had a colossal shortage of rolling stock in terms of both locomotives and wagons due to the difference between the European and Russian track gauges. The captured cars and locomotives were not enough, they did not have time to re-equip their own. What could move up to 1540 moved along the destroyed tracks, while echelons that were not subject to bombing rushed from Siberia to Moscow. In the place of the Germans, anyone would howl. They simply had no choice but to remove the equipment from the cars and drown it in muddy roads. Once again, I emphasize that we are not talking about the battles themselves in a muddy road under equal conditions, but namely the delivery of strategic forces as the front line advances. As paradoxical as it may sound, the Germans, who declared war and lightning blitzkrieg, stupidly did not appear in full force for the decisive duel.
      1. sagitovich
        sagitovich 14 November 2021 16: 44
        +31
        Yes, everything is correct, it is such a war, not a fighting ring with artificially created equal conditions. And if you don't like the conditions, write to the sport lotto. laughing
        1. sleeve
          sleeve 14 November 2021 17: 07
          +16
          And here's what's interesting: they didn't fly to Mars to fight. Many of them, both senior and middle command personnel, were trained in the "Kama" and learned to fly at the "Lipetsk school". That is, both the climate and the districts were approximately known. Well, it's as if a man from Krasnoyarsk traveled to Brazil, walked along the edge of the forest, and then a dozen years later arrived there, but without a mosque and rubber boots.
      2. AUL
        AUL 14 November 2021 17: 10
        +27
        Quote: Bshkaus
        What could move along the 1540 count, moved along destroyed paths

        Excuse in the style of the memoirs of Hitler's generals! Well, something, but the sapper services worked excellently for them, and the destroyed tracks were restored (moreover, for their rolling stock) very quickly.
        A bad dancer always gets in the way!
      3. Cormoran
        Cormoran 14 November 2021 17: 44
        +1
        And who is their doctor? Professionals discuss logistics ...
      4. chenia
        chenia 14 November 2021 18: 18
        +19
        Quote: Bshkaus
        So it is so, but not so:


        So, so it is. The Germans were in Stalingrad in August, and what prevented him from taking it. Slush.
        In 1944, the thaw did not prevent 2 UV and 3 UV polishing the Wehrmacht (and these are chernozems)

        Quote: Bshkaus
        Who knows? Hitler, after all, threw large forces against Kiev and the south,

        In, near Kiev, the Germans were very lucky. Of the three solutions, the most incorrect was chosen - a belated departure.
        If Kirponos (as he wanted) had decided to defend Kiev (surrounded), he would have fettered 6A and Kleist and Guderian. Moreover, there would be no deep operational environment (about 100 km). And what should the Germans do? Dissect 600 thousand. Group? This is when you need to bite into the defense, the density of which does not fall in depth. You can't roll out in tanks there.
        And so, when retreating, in an open field, in marching columns (our maneuvering measures, while they did not succeed), almost the entire group was rolled out in a week and a half.

        The main failure of the Germans is that they were not really ready in 1941 for war with the USSR. They were just very lucky that they attacked at the moment of the "dressing up" of the Red Army. This is when the structures are created, but not polished and adjusted to the optimum. Moreover, the very measures to create new formations disrupted the BP and arranged a personnel leapfrog. In the autumn we were already stronger than the Germans. In principle, they could not take Moscow. Semi-circle, yes (so they wanted to) and choke. Let me remind you that the Germans were in Stalingrad in August. AND?
      5. Dude
        Dude 14 November 2021 19: 14
        +30
        Quote: Bshkaus
        especially concerned, muddy roads prevented them from fighting on both sides, and General Frost also did not spare both sides!

        So it is so, but not so:
        Soviet troops were delivered to the front by rail to the stations in the rear and from there on their own to the places of concentration and to the front line. The Germans had a colossal shortage of rolling stock both in locomotives and wagons due to the difference in European ...

        Mom, give birth to me back ... wassat
        What have I read now? belay
        Soviet troops were delivered to the front by rail to the stations in the rear and from there on their own to the places of concentration and to the front line.
        Presumably, along the beautiful roads that are not prone to muddy roads ...
        In the place of the Germans, anyone would howl. They simply had no choice but to remove the equipment from the cars and drown it in muddy roads.
        I already understood that muddy roads reigned only at the stations captured by the Germans, treacherously moving in exact accordance with the changes in the front line ...
        The Germans had a colossal shortage of rolling stock in terms of both locomotives and wagons due to the difference between the European and Russian track gauges.
        The track was promptly altered.
        What could move up to 1540 moved along the destroyed tracks, while echelons that were not subject to bombing rushed from Siberia to Moscow.
        All of Siberia hung on one wildly overloaded Transsib, while the Germans had at their disposal a well-developed network of railways in Europe and the European part of the USSR. So that's it exactly the opposite.
        However, what nonsense a person can write who does not even know the gauge (1524 mm., Actually), but imagines himself a railway expert and a logistics genius, judging by the aplomb with which it is written.
        Once again, I emphasize that we are not talking about the battles themselves in a muddy road under equal conditions, but namely the delivery of strategic forces as the front line advances.
        You also write that the Germans could not take Leningrad due to the fact that insidious Russian tanks directly from the Kirov plant, under their own power, along Stachek Ave., in half an hour, drove them to the front line, and the Nazis had theirs all the way from Germany and Czechoslovakia, across the floor -Europe shove ...
        You, I will see, are either under the influence of Western propaganda, or just a fan of Bavarian ™ ...
        The only thing that you wrote correctly:
        In the place of the Germans, anyone would howl.
        And they howled. And the Germans, and Romanians, and Hungarians, and Italians, and other Bandera with "charlemagne".
        From the heroism of a Soviet soldier.
        And they howled right up to Berlin 45th.
        And now, I see, they are howling.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 14 November 2021 19: 37
          -1
          Quote: Dude
          All of Siberia hung on one wildly overloaded Trans-Siberian railway, while the Germans had a well-developed network of railways in Europe and the European part of the USSR at their disposal.

          I would like to correct - the developed network was in the territories of the USSR, captured by the Germans before August. And then in the Baltic States there was a "rut mess" - part of the network had a Russian track, part - European.
          Upgraded as of 5.11.40:
          Zemgale-New Vilnia-Vilnius-Kaishadoris-Kaunas-Virbalis (one way).
          Vilnius-Stasilai
          New Vilnia-Shumkas
          Daugavpils-Panevezys-Radviliskis
          Kazlu-Ruda-Alytus
          ...
          3) As a matter of urgency, alter all railway sections and railway junctions on the Union track, with the exception of sections:
          Riga-Jelgava (second route)
          Jelgava-Mozheikiai
          Kuziai-Liepaja
          Priekule-Kretinga
          Which to alter in the second place.

          5) ... The Lithuanian railway has mainly the European gauge - 1435 mm and is currently in the process of rewriting ...
          © "On the necessary measures for additional construction and reconstruction of PribOVO roads to increase their throughput". 18.11.1940/XNUMX/XNUMX. Signed by the chief of military communications of the PribOVO, Major General of the technical troops Kashcheev-Semin.

          But problems began in August. Finally, the Zheldorvoyska mobilized, and the withdrawal of rolling stock with the destruction of railways and structures during the retreat began to be carried out in an organized and systematic manner.
      6. Alexey G
        Alexey G 14 November 2021 19: 23
        -10
        Well, of course, their formations were stretched and could not strike a massive blow on the defense like in the summer, as a result the Fritzes entered the battle in units, incurring losses and wasting forces, so we must admit that the weather partly saved Moscow! But not the USSR! Stalin was ready to leave the capital and continue the fight, so the outcome of the war would still be decided in Stalingrad and in the Caucasus!
        And therefore there were no equal conditions in battle! If the attackers do not have superiority in the decisive direction, then what kind of equality is there ??? With equal forces, gentlemen do not attack! They come with a superiority of 3: 1 !!! Otherwise, trench warfare and position! Which was eventually achieved!
        And in tactical terms, it is easier for the defender! He had already taken an advantageous position, dug in the forest. He does not need to look for workarounds to strike from the flank and rear and send tanks through the mud and swamp for this! Yes, it is not easy to deliver equipment through the mud, ammunition and tools can be moved, but if they managed to arrive at the site before the thaw, then this is already a plus! And the infantry and on the muddy road from the railway station can finish stomping!
        If the enemy has a technique with seams, then there is enough infantry for defense! Moreover, most of the tanks of that period among the Germans were pierced by our anti-tank rifle and a 45mm gun !!
        1. -Dmitry-
          -Dmitry- 15 November 2021 10: 50
          +3
          They come with a superiority of 3: 1 !!! Otherwise, trench warfare and position! Which was eventually achieved!


          In 1945, the "impregnable fortress of the Wehrmacht" - Königsberg was taken in 3 days. In this case, the ratio of forces was 2: 1 and with a stretch. And this is not an attack on the defending troops, but an assault on well-fortified forts.
          1. Alexey G
            Alexey G 15 November 2021 22: 54
            -3
            good Dmitry, you probably believe in Santa Claus? Yes?
            I didn’t even bother and took the very first article about it from Alexander Samsonov Sturm of Koenigsberg: the "impregnable" fortress was taken in four days!
            Read what he writes:
            [quote] Königsberg operation. Forces of the parties

            The 39th, 43rd, 50th and 11th Guards armies, the 1st and 3rd air armies, formations of the 18th long-range aviation army, fleet aviation, and two bomber aviation corps of the RVGK took part in the storming of the fortress. Total over 185 tys. people (the city was stormed directly, according to various sources, 100 – 130 thousand people), over 5 тыс. guns and mortars, over 500 tanks and self-propelled guns, 2500 aircraft.[/ b] At the same time, over 45% of artillery systems were heavy guns, guns of great and special power to destroy the German fortifications. To solve the same problem, about 45% of combat aircraft were bombers.
            The capital of East Prussia itself was defended by four full-blooded infantry divisions (548th, 561st, 367th and 69th Infantry Divisions, the headquarters of the 61st Infantry Division, a divisional type battle group Mikos, and the Schubert police battle group) , several separate infantry regiments, a number of security, fortress units and militia battalions. In total, the Konigsberg garrison numbered about 130 тыс. person, about 4 тыс. guns and mortars, over 100 tanks and self-propelled guns. From the air, the garrison of the city was supported by the [b] aviation group, which was based on the Zemland peninsula (170 vehicles).
            [i] [/ i] General Otto von Läsch was the commandant of the city and fortress of Königsberg. [/ quote]
            I marked you in bold !!! Yes, in the infantry we did not have a clear advantage! 185 tons by 130 tons, but the city was surrounded on all sides! So we could choose the place of the strike ourselves, and the Germans had to wait for it from all sides! That is, to stretch the forces in a circle! This means that in the right place we could have and did have the same 3 to 1 !!! If you are really interested in military history, then you should know about it! So they took all the fortresses of Izmail is no exception!

            But 500 tanks against 100 is already 1 to 5 !!!
            And 2500 planes versus 170 ?????? This is 1 to 14 ????? And 45 percent of them are bombers !!!
            Yes, in guns 5 against 4, but we have 45 percent of the guns of increased power !!! Oh, I don't think the Germans could oppose them with anything ...

            And that's what these same guns and aircraft did !!!

            Enjoy!


            [Quote] A few days before the decisive assault on the capital of East Prussia, Soviet artillery began to methodically destroy enemy fortifications and positions. The weather conditions did not allow the full use of aviation, so preliminary fire training turned out to be less effective than expected. On April 7-8, the weather improved significantly. Soviet aviation was actively involved in the destruction of enemy fortifications. On April 7, our aircraft made over 4700 sorties, on the 8th, over 6. Our bombers' attacks significantly reduced the enemy's combat potential. By the end of April 8, Soviet soldiers occupied the port and railway junction, a number of important military and industrial facilities. The blockade of the city from the Zemland direction was strengthened. The Germans were offered to lay down their arms, but they refused. On the morning of April 9, Soviet troops repelled the attempts of a part of the German garrison to break through towards the Zemland Peninsula. The German group "Zemland" threw its reserve (5th Panzer Division) into battle to punch its way to the city. However, this attack was repulsed. Meanwhile, our artillery and aviation (about 1,5 thousand aircraft) delivered powerful strikes against the remaining enemy positions. Then, units of the 11th Guards Army defeated the Nazis in the center of the city. By 21 o'clock the remnants of the German garrison laid down their arms. The last centers of resistance were suppressed already on April 10. [/ quote https://topwar.ru/169831-shturm-kenigsberga-nepristupnuju-krepost-vzjali-za-chetyre-dnja.html
            Read the storyteller !!!
            The conclusion is obvious! Multiple superiority in aviation broke the enemy !!!
            1. Alexey G
              Alexey G 15 November 2021 23: 42
              -2
              Between 1 and 4 on April, the battle formations of the Soviet armies were sealed. In the north, in the direction of the main attack of the 43 and 50 armies of Beloborodov and Ozerov, 10 rifle divisions were concentrated on the 15-kilometer stretch of the breakthrough. The artillery density in the northern sector brought 220 guns and mortars to 1 km of the front, the density of armored vehicles to 23 tanks and SPGs to 1 km. In the south, on the 8,5-kilometer breakthrough sector, the 9 rifle divisions were ready to strike. Artillery density in the northern sector brought to 177 guns and mortars, the density of tanks and self-propelled guns - 23 machines. The 8 Army’s 39 auxiliary strike, which had an auxiliary strike, had 139 guns and mortars on the 1 km of front, 14 tanks and SAU on 1 km of the front.
              This is also Samsonov, about the concentration of forces in the direction of the main blow!
            2. -Dmitry-
              -Dmitry- 17 November 2021 04: 30
              -1
              the fortress was taken in four days!


              Does it change anything?

              But 500 tanks against 100 is already 1 to 5 !!!
              And 2500 planes versus 170 ?????? This is 1 to 14 ????? And 45 percent of them are bombers !!!
              Yes, in guns 5 against 4, but we have 45 percent of the guns of increased power !!! Oh, I don't think the Germans could oppose them with anything ...


              Bombers, tanks, even the BR-3/5 could not do anything against the forts. Do you think they just took ShISBrami or what? From nothing to do? :) It was the ShISBry who broke into the defenses of the forts. Not tanks, aircraft and heavy artillery.

              I marked you in bold !!! Yes, in the infantry we did not have a clear advantage! 185 tons by 130 tons, but the city was surrounded on all sides! So we could choose the place of the strike ourselves, and the Germans had to wait for it from all sides! That is, to stretch the forces in a circle! This means that in the right place we could have and did have the same 3 to 1 !!! If you are really interested in military history, then you should know about it! So they took all the fortresses of Izmail is no exception!


              You have all your military knowledge from the Middle Ages. Ishmael and Königberg are far from the same thing.
              What do you think is this:
              Historian Gennady Kretinin:

              “Naturally, not the entire 106-strong group of Soviet troops took a direct part in the assault. Fortified enemy lines and positions were overcome by specially trained subunits in the number of about 25 thousand people: assault groups and assault detachments, the basis of which were rifle companies of active fighters ... Thus, subunits significantly inferior in number to the defenders took part in the direct assault on Konigsberg. Of course, with the support of the forces and means of all types of troops of the 3rd Belorussian Front "



              The conclusion is obvious! Multiple superiority in aviation broke the enemy !!!

              Rave. No, of course the aviation did its job, but the assault was carried out not by aviation, but by ground forces. For example, for some reason in Stalingrad, the "multiple superiority in aviation", tanks and artillery of the Germans did not help them to capture Stalingrad, although it did not have such fortified positions as in Konigsberg. Even close.

              The German group "Zemland" threw its reserve (5th Panzer Division) into battle to punch its way to the city. However, this attack was repulsed. Meanwhile, our artillery and aviation (about 1,5 thousand aircraft) delivered powerful strikes against the remaining enemy positions. Then, units of the 11th Guards Army defeated the Nazis in the center of the city. By 21:XNUMX the remnants of the German garrison laid down their arms.


              You don't even read what you copy and paste. The Zemland grouping is not even Konigsberg, it is the Zemland peninsula.
              1. Alexey G
                Alexey G 17 November 2021 17: 03
                -1
                I finally waited!
                1.
                Bombers, tanks, even the BR-3/5 could not do anything against the forts. Do you think they just took ShISBrami or what? From nothing to do? :) It was the ShISBry who broke into the defenses of the forts. Not tanks, planes and heavy artillery

                Without heavy art and aviation, the infantry would never have taken these forts !!! Don't you understand this ??? read Samsonov! The advantage in tanks is 5 times! in aviation 14 times! in heavy art I can't even say!
                The point is that your statement that there was 2: 1 bullshit! And I proved it to you! Without this advantage, our infantry would not have taken anything! Donut hole!
                2.
                You have all your military knowledge from the Middle Ages. Ishmael and Königberg are far from the same thing.
                ... Ishmael is New Time! End of the 18th century! A big difference from the Middle Ages! 500 years! Did you get poorly at school? And the forts of Konigsberg were built at the beginning of the 19th century! Do not find the proximity of times!
                Rave. No, of course the aviation did its job, but the assault was carried out not by aviation, but by ground forces. For example, for some reason in Stalingrad, the "multiple superiority in aviation", tanks and artillery of the Germans did not help them to capture Stalingrad, although it did not have such fortified positions as in Konigsberg. Even close.

                You don't know much about Stalingrad, but I'm a local. It was the superiority in tanks and aviation and art that helped the Germans capture almost the entire city !!! A narrow strip of land remained in the hands of the defenders behind the reverse slope !!! And why??? our art beat from the opposite bank !!! Reinforcements, guns, ammunition arrived, aviation was working !!! And most importantly, the experience of the Stalingrad battles taught our soldiers not to make German mistakes! Namely, throw tanks without infantry through the streets, attack the streets with battalions, not assault groups, competently use art with the support of assault groups and other things, and not throw it at its starting positions !!! And the calibers have changed in 2 years! In Konig, we used tanks and CAO 85, 122, 152. Germans in Stalingrad 50, 75. Our hummingbird at home pierced through and through from St. John's wort, for example! laughing
                But it's complete nonsense to think that we could have taken Konigsberg without the advantage I have indicated !!! Infantry !!! The Germans had more than 100 tanks and 170 aircraft, if we removed our tanks and aircraft, then General Lyash would have surrounded and destroyed our units!

                You don't even read what you copy and paste. The Zemland grouping is not even Konigsberg, it is the Zemland peninsula.

                You copy and paste yourself !!! Zemland tried to help Konigsberg with the force of a division !! Read carefully! But the blow was deflected! Guess by whom and by what forces ???
                You read how, with a similar advantage in aviation, the Americans attacked in the 44th !!! They just burned everything from above !!! The Germans never got a chance! All attacks in flying weather were doomed to failure! Eli, if nothing prevents them, act murderously! 2500 planes versus 170 is beating babies!
                1. -Dmitry-
                  -Dmitry- 18 November 2021 12: 05
                  0
                  Without heavy art and aviation, the infantry would never have taken these forts !!!


                  But she took it. For this is a special infantry - google what the ShISBr is.

                  ... Ishmael is New Time! End of the 18th century! A big difference from the Middle Ages! 500 years! Did you get poorly at school? And the forts of Konigsberg were built at the beginning of the 19th century! Do not find the proximity of times!

                  No need to translate arrows.
                  Where is the end of the 18th century and where is the middle of the 20th ??? However, for you, apparently, there is not much difference.

                  And most importantly, the experience of the Stalingrad battles taught our soldiers not to make German mistakes! Namely, throw tanks without infantry through the streets, attack the streets with battalions, not assault groups,


                  What kind of nonsense are you talking about? The forts of Konigsberg were stormed by assault groups.

                  It was the superiority in tanks and aviation and art that helped the Germans capture almost the entire city !!! A narrow strip of land remained in the hands of the defenders behind the reverse slope !!! And why??? our art beat from the opposite bank !!!


                  It hardly counts. In a few months of fighting, they almost captured an ordinary city, which was previously almost wiped off the face of the earth by bombing, and ours took fortified fortresses in Konigsberg in 3-4 days. As you can see, "superiority in tanks and aircraft and arte" does not roll. The Germans were unable to capture Stalingrad, moreover, they lost all their tanks, aircraft and "art".

                  Zemland tried to help Konigsberg with the force of a division !! Read carefully! But the blow was deflected! Guess by whom and by what forces ???


                  What has Zemland and the city's garrison got to do with it? It was specifically about the assault on Konigsberg and with what forces and means it was taken. There is no need to engage in demagoguery.

                  You read how, with a similar advantage in aviation, the Americans attacked in the 44th !!! They just burned everything from above !!! The Germans never got a chance! All attacks in flying weather were doomed to failure! Eli, if nothing prevents them, act murderously! 2500 planes versus 170 is beating babies!


                  Especially if the main forces are involved on the Eastern Front. Nobody hindered the Heinkels and Stukas in 1941 either - the Germans had an overwhelming superiority in aviation and "art", as you say. But why are you stuttering about 3 to 1? They say they did not have a ratio of 3 to 1, so they lost the battle of Moscow. I gave you the example of Konigsberg, where ours had barely 2 to 1 and they took it in 3-4 days. Here you now have superiority in aviation, tanks and "art". Please - from the Germans, it was all in 1941 near Moscow.
                  1. Alexey G
                    Alexey G 18 November 2021 20: 16
                    -1
                    But she took it. For this is a special infantry - google what the ShISBr is.

                    She took them with overwhelming superiority in heavy artillery, tanks and, most importantly, aviation !!! You do not see the main thing! In war, it is important to create superiority in forces! It was not the Shisbri who took the fortress separately, but the Shisbri with total domination in aviation, tanks, and heavy arte! Neither art by itself nor chisbras by themselves could take the forts! But together they could and took! The Germans also had infantry and tanks and art and aircraft and they could repel our attack, but they could not! Why? Because we had superiority! And what is it ??? Are there shisbras? NO! In total domination in technology! Quantitative and qualitative!
                    The assault brigades were first used by the Germans in the assault on Verdun! Then they began to use it in the storming of Stalingrad in the later stages! We did the same!
                    No need to translate arrows.
                    Where is the end of the 18th century and where is the middle of the 20th ??? However, for you, apparently, there is not much difference.

                    You yourself started talking about the Middle Ages about Ishmael! But this is not the Middle Ages! So your jamb and arrows are yours! But to defend in the forts of the 19th century is still the archaism! Forts are defenses in the style of the 18-19th century! In addition, you did not understand the very meaning of my comparison !! And it is eternal and does not become obsolete! THE ATTACKER CAN CHOOSE THE PLACE TO HIT AND GATHER MORE STRENGTH THERE THAN THE DEFENSE! IT WAS GOOD FOR SUVOROV AT THE STORM OF ISMAIL AND FOR THE STORM OF KENIGSBERG!
                    In the 20th century, it became clear that forts would not save you from arts, better trenches, dugouts, bunkers! Here's what heavy art does to Forts:









                    And in the city itself!


                    coupled with aviation !!!
                    All this was not created by the Shisbras!
                    It hardly counts. In a few months of fighting, they almost captured an ordinary city, which was previously almost wiped off the face of the earth by bombing, and ours took fortified fortresses in Konigsberg in 3-4 days. As you can see, "superiority in tanks and aircraft and arte" does not roll. The Germans were unable to capture Stalingrad, moreover, they lost all their tanks, aircraft and "art".

                    Your logical thinking is not from a word at all!
                    First of all, almost everything counts! The Stalingradians, as I already wrote to you, had a strip of land 100 meters wide in their hands, and that is far from everywhere, but only in several parts of the city and several buildings, constantly passing from hand to hand! But why did they stay? Thanks to strong art support from the opposite bank! Our heavy arte, which the Germans could not get in any way, and thanks to the reinforcements that were ferried endlessly along the Volga! In other words, thanks to our superiority in people, technology, and territory! But the city was dominated by the Germans! They took the station, Mamayev Kurgan, Tractor Plant, controlled all areas! But this does not mean that tanks, aircraft and art do not roll! This is sheer stupidity! How it rolls! Only use it wisely! The battle in the city has its own specifics and the Germans did not take it into account right away! But then they took into account and took almost everything!
                    If not for help from the left bank, there would be a skiff for the defenders! The city was saved by Stalin's resources! He introduced new divisions, which Hitler had fewer! In the battle of Stalingrad, the winner is the one with more reserves, that is, who has the advantage! In people or technology! Or both! Axiom is correct! What are you getting at?
                  2. Alexey G
                    Alexey G 18 November 2021 20: 16
                    -1
                    The Americans fired up Iraq with tomahawks and did not show much courage and perseverance!
                    Tomorrow is the day of the counter-offensive at Stalingrad! All other things being equal, the Germans were defeated thanks to our superiority in tanks! 650 to 1500, that is, three times! That is why the Germans lost at Stalingrad! The boiler was made by tank hulls with a 3x advantage!
                    Why is Zemland and the garrison here? It was specifically about the assault on Konigsberg and with what forces and means it was taken. There is no need to engage in demagoguery.

                    Kind! Zemland and that's it! Stalingrad was assisted by the whole country! And Koenig tried to help Zemland, but could not! You are comparing in terms convenient for you, but they are not equal! Reinforcements were coming from Zemland to Koenig! Until they were cut! Stalingrad was not surrounded, but Koenig was!

                    In 1941, no one hindered the Einkels and Stukas either - the Germans had an overwhelming superiority in aviation and "arte", as you say. But why are you stuttering about 3 to 1? They say they did not have a ratio of 3 to 1, so they lost the battle of Moscow. I gave you the example of Konigsberg, where ours had barely 2 to 1 and they took it in 3-4 days. Here you now have superiority in aviation, tanks and "art". Please - from the Germans, it was all in 1941 near Moscow.

                    You have forgotten what was discussed at the very beginning! We talked about autumn and muddy roads! When art and tanks got stuck in the mud! When the field airfields were soaked from the rains and the weather did not allow the Germans, in principle, to use aircraft effectively! Therefore, this entire German car got stuck and slowly pulled through the mud, engaging in battle in parts, that is, not taking advantage of its advantage! For example, there is infantry, but the tanks are behind, or there are tanks and infantry, but the art has not arrived in time and the rain does not allow the aviation to help, or the aviation is flying, but the tanks and armored personnel carriers have no fuel, etc. ! We are back at the beginning that you have safely forgotten! "
                    Good luck!
                  3. Alexey G
                    Alexey G 18 November 2021 22: 19
                    -1
                    I gave you the example of Konigsberg, where ours had barely 2 to 1 and they took it in 3-4 days.

                    2: 1 was only in the infantry !!! You chose what was convenient for you to choose and forgot about the main thing! 20th century is the age of motors! And the war of the 20th century is a war of engines! Oh, you shouldn't like history!
                    Let's give the Germans now mentally our 2500 aircraft and all our tanks and artoo ?! What do you think will happen given that we will have your 2: 1 infantry and your beloved SISBRs ???
                    TELL YOU? Your infantry will rush back at a trot to Moscow and Stalingrad until Uncle Stalin returns to them what I, purely hypothetical, took from them. THEIR POWER!
                    1. -Dmitry-
                      -Dmitry- 19 November 2021 08: 03
                      -1
                      Yes, you have a noble porridge in your head. Apparently from here and hysteria.
                      You are just so eager to drag me to your level in order to overcome with experience :)
                      1. Alexey G
                        Alexey G 20 November 2021 00: 04
                        -1
                        laughing Dmitry, I have in my head a military theory based on facts, but you don't have such a theory! I feel sorry for you! I have read a dozen scientific papers on military theory and am quite sure what I am saying, as I have tested myself at dozens of scientific forums and conferences! But I do not observe any theory behind your words! Only attempts to pull something out of some events, interpreting them at your own discretion! But this is not a scientific approach! Your words may seem patriotic to you, but in fact you should be hysterical, because behind this patriotism you are losing touch with the truth! And such patriotism is bad, despite all the disadvantages given to me! He is very bad, because he does not teach to draw conclusions from facts, is based on an uncritical approach to events, he is fanatical, and the fanatic is dangerous to himself and others!
                        Yes, I may have explained to you emotionally, but this is not hysterical, but rather first surprise and then disappointment!
                        The assertion that the attacker should have a 3: 1 advantage is the quintessence of the world's long experience of war. The meaning of this formula is in Sun Tzu's words that strategy is the art of breaking eggs, that is, hitting the strong against the weak! The one who understood the meaning of this simple ancient Chinese wisdom later won the battles, and who did not understand lost them! The ancient Greeks, for example, increased the depth of one of the flanks of the phalanx, and the Romans created three echelons of attack and defense, attacking in waves, Frederick the Great created an oblique formation, and Napoleon 1st “To win,” he said, “you need to be stronger than the enemy at this point and At the moment". But weren't Hannibal's forces at Cannes stronger on the flanks? If this of course tells you something?
                        Karl von Clausewitz, whose book "On the War" was carefully studied by Stalin, contained a clear idea that the war is won by those who have more reserves!
                        And Stalin created these reserves, enough to first lose and then win. But reserves are, of course, not only living force! With the development of society and military thought in battles, technology began to play an ever greater role, which threatens in the present and in the future in general to oust a person from the battlefield!
                        The 20th century is the century of wars of the era of industrial civilization, therefore, it is dominated primarily by the technology of industrial civilization. Cars with internal combustion engines! With their help, it was possible to concentrate forces in the shortest possible time, gaining time. For this, the Wehrmacht created tank troops, the road for which was pierced by aviation and self-propelled artillery! Motorized infantry, atrillery, aviation - everything became fast and made it possible to do what Sun Tzu taught - to beat by force against weakness! But in order to see the common in the diverse Dmitry, one has to read and think a lot! I don't need you to crawl towards me! You need to waddle a lot to the level of an objective understanding of historical events!
                        Good luck! Good luck!
                      2. begemot20091
                        begemot20091 20 November 2021 01: 22
                        +1
                        Quote: Alexey G
                        Motorized infantry, atrillery, aviation - everything became fast and made it possible to do what Sun Tzu taught - to beat by force against weakness!

                        One should not write on the couch, smart guy, and not suffer from enuresis at the sight of technology. "run away" to the war and you will learn all the delights of tactics and strategy. You are so great to write and read, but as in the trenches ... = WE WERE NOT THERE.
                      3. Alexey G
                        Alexey G 20 November 2021 01: 37
                        0
                        Thanks for the brevity! I agree with you!
              2. Alexey G
                Alexey G 17 November 2021 17: 31
                0
                Bombers, tanks, even the BR-3/5 could not do anything against the forts.

                “The roofs of the old forts have long been covered with a significant layer of earth and even overgrown with young forest. From a distance they looked like small hills overgrown with forests. However, with skillful actions the Soviet artillerymen cut off this layer of earth and reached brick or concrete vaults. The discarded land and trees quite often blocked the Germans' view and covered the embrasures "... This is Samsonov! Not me!
                "Under cover of artillery fire, some units attacked the stunned Germans, began to seize the forward trenches. At 12 o'clock, Soviet troops went to storm the enemy positions. The first were assault detachments supported by tanks, they were created in all rifle divisions. Divisional and corps artillery, army artillery the groups moved their fire deep into the enemy defenses and continued to conduct counter-battery combat. The guns in the infantry battle formations were brought into direct fire, and they smashed the enemy's positions. " It is too....
                Where bombs and art did not penetrate the ground and concrete, they raised clouds of dust, debris, making it difficult to see anything from the forts! The smoke from the fires also made it difficult for the defenders to see anything! Thanks to this, the infantry of the sapper groups was able to come close to the forts! Otherwise, she would have simply been shot on the spot !!!
              3. Alexey G
                Alexey G 17 November 2021 17: 42
                0
                How do you imagine everything ??? Assault engineer-sapper brigades woke up at about 4 in the morning and went into battle for a well-fortified defense ?? Without art training, without cover for tanks and self-propelled guns? Without aviation support ??? I give them 20 minutes of life under machine-gun and enemy artillery fire !!! And there snipers and aviation will finish off the survivors and set fire to the flamethrowers! stop
                “In December 1943, a procedure was developed for the combat use of assault formations. Assault brigades were brought into battle to provide engineering support for breaking through the enemy's fortified defenses. They could successfully carry out their tasks only under the condition of well-organized interaction with rifle, armored and mechanized troops and artillery. Since the fighters of the assault groups did not have heavy small arms and their own artillery, after the breakthrough, they were no longer assigned the task of continuing the offensive in their zone, since this always resulted in significant losses, and were immediately withdrawn to the reserve for replenishment and training. "
                Read in bold! Humorist! Only on condition !!! This is for the gifted!
                1. -Dmitry-
                  -Dmitry- 18 November 2021 12: 11
                  0
                  This is for the gifted!


                  You probably marked it in bold for yourself? :) Only you are especially gifted here.
          2. Alexey G
            Alexey G 16 November 2021 00: 32
            -2
            The effect of the air strike was serious. As commander Galitsky recalled: “A thick column of black smoke and dust rose over the city, about a kilometer and a half wide. It was a spectacular sight. I have never seen such a powerful air strike before this day. There were fires in the city, many warehouses with ammunition and food were destroyed, communications broke down, buildings in the central part of the city destroyed earlier by Anglo-American heavy bombers, many soldiers and officers of the enemy were buried in bomb shelters. The morale of the troops of the Königsberg garrison was depressed, as we were told by captured officers and generals. ”

            The commandant of the fortress, O. Lyash, was also impressed by the strikes of the Soviet aviation and artillery. “On April 6,” Lyash wrote, “a Russian offensive with such power began, which I had not yet met, despite the rich experience in the east and west ... two air fleets continuously bombarded the fortress with their shells for days on end ... Bombers and attack aircraft flew wave after wave, dumped their fatal burden on the burning city, which lay in ruins. " According to him, German aviation could not resist these strikes, as well as anti-aircraft artillery, which at the same time had to fight against enemy armored vehicles. As a result, all communication lines were cut. It was necessary to use messengers who made their way through the ruins to the command posts of units or to the troops. Soldiers and civilians hid from bombs and shells in basements.
            Well, what are you convinced ???
        2. Dude
          Dude 16 November 2021 22: 31
          +1
          Quote: Alexey G
          Well, of course, their formations were stretched and could not strike a massive blow on the defense like in the summer, as a result the Fritzes entered the battle in units, incurring losses and wasting forces, so we must admit that the weather partly saved Moscow! But not the USSR! Stalin was ready to leave the capital and continue the fight, so the outcome of the war would still be decided in Stalingrad and in the Caucasus!
          And therefore there were no equal conditions in battle! If the attackers do not have superiority in the decisive direction, then what kind of equality is there ??? With equal forces, gentlemen do not attack! They come with a superiority of 3: 1 !!! Otherwise, trench warfare and position! Which was eventually achieved!
          And in tactical terms, it is easier for the defender! He has already taken an advantageous position, dug in ...

          Oh, I see, another lover of "Krombacher" was found!
          Stalin, such a brute, did not keep the ratio of the defenders to the attackers, he attracted more people to the front! This is not a fire play! wassat
          Obviously an unsportsmanlike victory for the Russians in the Second World War!
      7. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 14 November 2021 19: 25
        +2
        Quote: Bshkaus
        Soviet troops were delivered to the front by rail to the stations in the rear and from there on their own to the places of concentration and to the front line.

        And then the front-line zone began - and all the advantages of the railway disappeared. In this area, all stuck in mud on directions the equipment of Soviet brigades, divisions and armies went into irrevocability - it was either destroyed by the crews, or captured by the advancing Germans.
        The roads sagging during the rainy season affected both sides of the conflict. Moreover, the condition of the roads had a truly catastrophic effect on the retreating Soviet troops. This was especially true of the troops breaking through from the encirclement. Due to mud and impassable roads, in October 1941 they lost a significant part of their guns, vehicles and radio stations of the 3rd and 13th armies of the Bryansk Front. Stuck and out of order machines, Soviet troops were forced to leave the enemy or destroy. For the advancing German troops, getting stuck or even breaking down vehicles, tanks and tractors did not automatically mean their irrecoverable loss for the Wehrmacht.
        In his report to the front headquarters, the commander of the 16th Army, General K.K.Rokossovsky, noted:
        "The condition of the roads is so bad that there is a threat of impossibility to withdraw the material part of the artillery and all types of vehicles."
        Former deputy commander of the 49th Army for rear services, HA Antipenko later recalled:
        “It was difficult in the days of the battles near Moscow in the autumn thaw. The road troops were just picking up, there were few road equipment, then axes, shovels, horse-drawn graders were referred to it. In the old way “one, two took” dozens and hundreds of cars were pulled out where traffic jams were created. To improve the roads at the front, perches, planks, and track-and-paved roads were used. In the most difficult areas there were tractors on duty, pulling out the jammed cars. "
        It should be noted here that the engineering units of the Wehrmacht possessed perfect construction equipment, which allowed them to relatively quickly build ghats along muddy roads.
        © Isaev
        1. Alexey G
          Alexey G 14 November 2021 19: 48
          -9
          Well, do not idealize Isaev! He is good, but he also fulfills the task of a propagandist! Does it really well! Turn on your mind! In the offensive, it is mainly the attacker himself who moves! And if he cannot move, then the defender can calmly drink tea and smoke makhorka!
      8. hohol95
        hohol95 14 November 2021 19: 27
        +3
        In your opinion, the Germans on the Sotsky railways did not work as aviation?
      9. akarfoxhound
        akarfoxhound 14 November 2021 20: 45
        +8
        Their decisive duel should have already ended 3 months after the start of the war, "lukewarm." And our heroic grandfathers stretched their plans in time. And the fact that the Germans in summer clothes and in ersatz felt boots raked up to the storming of Moscow is no coincidence.

        The fascist must be dead! And how - it doesn't matter! Relevant today
      10. Ingenegr
        Ingenegr 15 November 2021 00: 52
        +3
        If my grandmother had x ... and a beard, then ... we know what it would be. And it is known that it was 09.05.1945/XNUMX/XNUMX. Everything else after that is nothing more than a fantasy about a parallel reality.
      11. zenion
        zenion 15 November 2021 17: 05
        +2
        Many Soviet steam locomotives and wagons were captured. Almost immediately, the Ukrainians began to work for the Germans. The Germans had a huge number of high-tonnage vehicles. France and Czechoslovakia worked at an accelerated pace, except for the German car factories. Everything was calculated and the rears too. They did not calculate one thing, the people defended their country, not the king's country. He defended with perseverance, not sparing his belly.
    4. Clear
      Clear 14 November 2021 16: 40
      +25
      Quote: tralflot1832
      We know how they defeated the whole of Europe, but we also know what they got in the USSR. misses.

      1. kamarada
        kamarada 15 November 2021 12: 04
        +1
        But I'm curious what would have happened to this hack and his rag if he asked the question, what prevented the Germans from finally solving the Jewish question. ??? Can we talk about the Russians?
    5. d1975
      d1975 14 November 2021 17: 34
      +7
      You are right, as if ours were at war at that time in the tropics. Everyone was in different conditions. Only the Fritzes did not take into account the Russian spirit. They don't teach about this in academies! hi
      1. d1975
        d1975 14 November 2021 17: 35
        +2
        Equal amendment.
      2. Alexander 3
        Alexander 3 14 November 2021 18: 17
        +2
        In Afghanistan, it was recently seen what kind of spirit the soldiers have. Dressed with weapons but without the main thing. Without spirit and without a goal. Besides money, as the Americans taught them, they saw nothing.
      3. DymOk_v_dYmke
        DymOk_v_dYmke 14 November 2021 20: 02
        0
        Quote: d1975
        Only the Fritzes did not take into account the Russian spirit. They don't teach about this in academies!

        And they do not teach, and could not teach because this is what is transmitted by genes. hi
      4. Michael HORNET
        Michael HORNET 14 November 2021 22: 15
        -4
        So the military losses of the USSR and Germany are correlated for 1941 as 10 to 1
    6. Alien From
      Alien From 14 November 2021 18: 01
      +7
      Well, an article, at the primary school level. And this is on VO ..... fool
      Eternal memory to all living and fallen hi
    7. DymOk_v_dYmke
      DymOk_v_dYmke 14 November 2021 19: 55
      -4
      Quote: tralflot1832
      We know how they defeated the whole of Europe, but we also know what they got in the USSR.

      Somehow Siberian divisions (which frost on a well-known place) are not mentioned,
      but it seems to me that they played the key role near Moscow.
      They were accustomed to frost.
    8. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 14 November 2021 22: 45
      +5
      Quote: tralflot1832
      General Frost also did not spare both sides!

      Once I watched a German newsreel in 1941 about the readiness of German troops for the winter campaign ... In the newsreel there was a complete abgemakht (!) In the preparation of the Germans for the winter: it was shown how winter uniforms and equipment were delivered to the front units ... as "fun and together "Zoldaten built insulated dugouts, just as" special "burzhuiks delivered from Germany were installed there; how tractors on Russian roads dragged insulated "cabins" on metal runners ... How valiant Aryan warriors, despising Russian Frost, plunged into ice holes ... And chemical heating pads, self-heating canned food?
      PS Here is an example of a German newsreel of military operations ... It is shown that the soldiers are not badly equipped for the winter ... Watching this film about the "valiant Deutsche Zoldaten" is not "necessary" at all ... but, just in case, I give it out ...
      1. Alex Justice
        Alex Justice 15 November 2021 17: 05
        0
        Propaganda. They also hung noodles for us.
    9. Maz
      Maz 15 November 2021 10: 05
      -1
      Yeah
      https://youtu.be/9DHONURPbPM
    10. Parabelum
      Parabelum 15 November 2021 10: 19
      0
      And the USSR fought in the microclimate of the Hawaiian Islands, not muddy roads, not rains, not frost, beauty before and only.
    11. smart ass
      smart ass 15 November 2021 16: 21
      0
      Under Moscow roads and dirt prevented, in Stalingrad it is too hot, on the Kursk Bulge what happened?
    12. Zug
      Zug 16 November 2021 17: 38
      0
      You are a little "crooked" the impact of frost and muddy roads trying on the Red Army and the Wehrmacht. Do not compare the logistics in kilometers, including in the occupied territory of the Germans, it is often thousands of kilometers. Problems with the railway train, etc. It is easier for mine to carry goods from near Moscow for 200-250 km than the Germans for a thousand so one and a half kilometers.
  2. Vladimir Vladimirovich Vorontsov
    Vladimir Vladimirovich Vorontsov 14 November 2021 15: 58
    +30
    but everything changed in an instant - the autumn rains began

    ***
    And the train with umbrellas was blown up by partisans ...
    ***
  3. knn54
    knn54 14 November 2021 15: 58
    +15
    - rains unaccounted for by the German command.
    Yes, they used to say "General Frost".
    From the beginning, Plan Barbarossa was AVANTURE.
    1. Bshkaus
      Bshkaus 14 November 2021 16: 43
      -12
      Yes, they used to say "General Frost".
      From the beginning, Plan Barbarossa was AVANTURE.

      Who knows? Hitler, after all, threw large forces on Kiev and the south, to seize agricultural areas and the Caucasian oil, and this was the task for the 1941 campaign, and many generals did not agree with him and believed that it was necessary to focus on Moscow. They even accuse Adya of the pathological syndrome of Napoleon and fear of the storming of Moscow.
      And to be honest, when I thought about it, I came to the conclusion that I would have acted like Adik, in the sense that I think that the seizure of the resources of the south was more reasonable. I, too, would not have rushed to take Moscow with a swoop, given Boni's experience))))
      1. Moore
        Moore 14 November 2021 17: 03
        +8
        And to calculate the logistics, the shoulder of the front / corps / division delivery by road, taking into account the shortage of rolling stock, the means for changing the railway track - did the "Yubermensch" neglect this when planning the blitzkrieg? Previously, with good old Schlieffen, they knew how to plan up to and including the carriage. Therefore, yes, a gamble with unsuitable means.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 14 November 2021 19: 41
          0
          Quote: Moore
          And to calculate the logistics, the shoulder of the front / corps / division delivery by road, taking into account the shortage of rolling stock, the means for changing the railway track - did the "Yubermensch" neglect this when planning the blitzkrieg?

          No, everything was calculated once.
          The problem was different: the Germans were guided by the pre-war mobplan, in which no mass mobilization of new formations was envisaged. Accordingly, they believed that after the encirclement and defeat of the largest and most combat-ready cadre group of border districts there would be no further big battles - the Red Army simply would not have the strength to fight them. The same Smolensk operation could not have dreamed of them even in a nightmare.
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 14 November 2021 23: 46
            +1
            In any case, a mistake was originally incorporated into Barbarossa's plan:
            capturing too much territory one throw
            Whatever the great logistics and trained army,
            at some point in communication, supply lines become
            too stretched and vulnerable. And the technique inevitably begins
            break down, fail.
            Overland Blitzkriegs have depth limitations.
            (but then they did not know about it).
            "Barbarossa" approximately three times surpassed the maximum
            penetration.
            It originally had to be done for two summer campaigns.
            But even then he would have failed: the mobilization reserves of the USSR,
            Ural factories and lend-lease canceled all the successes of the Wehrmacht.
          2. Moore
            Moore 15 November 2021 18: 28
            +1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            The problem was different: the Germans were guided by the pre-war mobplan, in which no mass mobilization of new formations was envisaged.

            This fact does not deny the biggest miscalculations in logistics. There is a small but interesting survey work of the respected George rooke on Zen about this. Some provisions:
            1.According to the plan for the invasion of the USSR, the number of divisions involved was increased to 166, while Grosstransportraum reported that its delivery vehicles would only be enough to supply 111 divisions.
            2.In 19 days after the start of the campaign, due to the roads and actions of isolated groups of Soviet troops, losses in the vehicle fleet of tank divisions reached 25%. A week later, Army Group Center reported that transport losses were 33%. The problem was compounded by the fact that the repair facilities were not transferred after the troops and were located in Poland.
            3. Due to bad roads, the calculations for fuel consumption went to waste, and now the troops demanded 330 tons per month (000 tons of fuel daily) instead of the previously laid down 9000 tons. It turned out that the fuel that Germany had enough for a car for 250 km, in Russia, is only enough for 000. And so on.
            It was really bad on the railway ..
            A decent planner of transportation simply could not ignore all this. Hence the same conclusion: an adventure. And what they did not take into account the mobpossibilities of the USSR is generally beyond the bounds of logic ...
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 16 November 2021 11: 14
              0
              Quote: Moore

              This fact does not deny the biggest miscalculations in logistics. There is a small but interesting overview work by the esteemed George Rooke on Zen about this.

              Oh yes ... the logistics of the Germans were wonderful.
              Well, organizationally, the Germans also naughty in their corporate style of WWII. The supply and logistics for railways and waterways were handled by the Chef des Transportwesens at OKW, and the road transport was managed by Wehrmachittransportchef at OKH. Well, in order to completely go crazy - the road transport in the war zone was controlled not by the head of the transport department of the Wehrmacht, but by the general quartermaster of the OKH, General Wagner.
              Thus, logistics was organizationally split into three independent branches of government - this is separately the command of waterways and railways, separately - the command of military road transport, and separately - the command of the same road transport in the war zone.
              © George Rooke
              Quote: Moore
              2.In 19 days after the start of the campaign, due to the roads and actions of isolated groups of Soviet troops, losses in the vehicle fleet of tank divisions reached 25%. A week later, Army Group Center reported that transport losses were 33%. The problem was compounded by the fact that the repair facilities were not transferred after the troops and were located in Poland.
              3. Due to bad roads, the calculations for fuel consumption went to waste, and now the troops demanded 330 tons per month (000 tons of fuel daily) instead of the previously laid down 9000 tons. It turned out that the fuel that Germany had enough for a car for 250 km, in Russia, is only enough for 000. And so on.

              But this is not a failure of logistics, but of a strategy. By the end of the first month, the bulk of the cadre formations of the Red Army should have already been surrounded and defeated in a border battle. Therefore, the army's need for supplies should have dropped - there should have been no more major battles.
              It's just that van Creveld considers only logistics, reducing everything to it. Therefore, for example, he got 4 TGr GA "Sever" in July due to a lack of supplies and bad roads ... and not at all because the motorized mechanized units broke away from the infantry, went in diverging directions and, as a result, rested on the Soviet defense , having also received a very unpleasant counterattack at Soltsy. And all this is written by Halder.
              Here, rather, the author, as in that very indecent anecdote about Vovochka, reduces the entire military history to ... logistics. So he "costs" 4 TGy. from 10.07 to 08.08.1941 only because everything is bad with supplies, and not because Reinhardt could not break through the Luga line on the move, and Manstein got hit on the head near Soltsy, and the infantry formations had to wait to make a new attempt.
              © sas1 - from comments in LJ George Rooke
      2. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 14 November 2021 17: 53
        +3
        Quote: Bshkaus
        Yes, they used to say "General Frost".
        From the beginning, Plan Barbarossa was AVANTURE.

        Who knows? Hitler, after all, threw large forces on Kiev and the south, to seize agricultural areas and the Caucasian oil, and this was the task for the 1941 campaign, and many generals did not agree with him and believed that it was necessary to focus on Moscow. They even accuse Adya of the pathological syndrome of Napoleon and fear of the storming of Moscow.
        And to be honest, when I thought about it, I came to the conclusion that I would have acted like Adik, in the sense that I think that the seizure of the resources of the south was more reasonable. I, too, would not have rushed to take Moscow with a swoop, given Boni's experience))))

        During the assault on Moscow, they received a flank blow "from Kiev", moreover, against an extended grouping of troops.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 14 November 2021 19: 43
          +2
          Quote: Krasnodar
          During the assault on Moscow, they received a flank blow "from Kiev", moreover, against an extended grouping of troops.

          And with an open flank.
          One of the tasks of Heinz's turn to the south was to finally close the flanks of GA Center and South, which until then had no contact with each other because of the Pripyat problem.
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 14 November 2021 22: 23
            0
            Quote: Alexey RA

            And with an open flank.
            One of the tasks of Heinz's turn to the south was to finally close the flanks of GA Center and South, which until then had no contact with each other because of the Pripyat problem.

            Exactly
      3. knn54
        knn54 14 November 2021 18: 14
        +3
        Bashkaus, the MAIN forces were thrown on Moscow-group "Center". When things went wrong in Ukraine, they were forced to throw Guderian's group to the south.
        Thus, weakening the blow to Moscow.
        In their memoirs, some generals point to another mistake - they did not pay attention to the North, and caravans of allies with weapons went to the ice-free Murmansk.
        1. rotfuks
          rotfuks 14 November 2021 21: 08
          +1
          at the end of 1941, the caravans of allies with weapons marched? have you messed up anything?
          1. Pilat2009
            Pilat2009 15 November 2021 10: 26
            +2
            Quote: rotfuks
            at the end of 1941, the caravans of allies with weapons marched? have you messed up anything?

            Well, in general, the first convoy arrived in the fall, it was not for nothing that imported tanks took part in the battle for Moscow.
            1. rotfuks
              rotfuks 15 November 2021 11: 51
              0
              What are the imported tanks in the battle for Moscow? Did you go to school at all? Only negotiations on the First Protocol for the supply of weapons under Lend-Lease began on 07.12.1941. Arms deliveries began much later.
              1. Pilat2009
                Pilat2009 15 November 2021 12: 06
                -3
                Quote: rotfuks
                What are the imported tanks in the battle for Moscow? Did you go to school at all? Only negotiations on the First Protocol for the supply of weapons under Lend-Lease began on 07.12.1941. Arms deliveries began much later.

                Tovarisch. You taught history at the school course. And I was engaged in self-education
                1. rotfuks
                  rotfuks 15 November 2021 20: 25
                  0
                  The results of self-education and the use of prohibited drugs are felt in your posts. Before fussing about imported tanks near Moscow, take a look at at least Wikipedia if books are not available to you.
                  https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B4-%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B7
                  1. Pilat2009
                    Pilat2009 15 November 2021 21: 30
                    -1
                    Quote: rotfuks
                    The results of self-education and the use of prohibited drugs are felt in your posts. Before fussing about imported tanks near Moscow, take a look at at least Wikipedia if books are not available to you.
                    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B4-%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B7

                    IIIII?
                    We read carefully:
                    Of the 800 aircraft and 1000 tanks promised by England, which the USSR was to receive in October-December 1941, 669 aircraft arrived (for comparison, as of October 1, 1941, there were 568 aircraft in the three fronts defending Moscow, of which 389 were serviceable [19]) and 487 tanks. From October 1941 to June 30, 1942, the USA sent to the USSR 545 aircraft, 783 tanks, more than three times less than promised.
                    The fastest (and most dangerous) route was the Arctic convoys. In July-December 1941, 40% of all deliveries went exactly this route,
                    In the period from June 1941 to May 1945, a total of 4 million tons of military supplies were delivered to the USSR.
                    And here's more for general development:
                    The Valentines took their first battle near Moscow on November 23, 1941. The brigade received an order to organize three anti-tank areas in the area of ​​the settlements Baraki, Petrovskoe and Kommuna.
                    1. rotfuks
                      rotfuks 16 November 2021 02: 25
                      0
                      Are you hinting that in December 1941 the first round of negotiations on a lend-lens took place with the British, and already in December British tanks fought near Moscow? Did the good British deliver the tanks before they signed the contract? And how did the British deliver the tanks to Moscow in one month? Is it really transport aviation?
                      1. Pilat2009
                        Pilat2009 16 November 2021 07: 26
                        0
                        Quote: rotfuks
                        Are you hinting that in December 1941 the first round of negotiations on a lend-lens took place with the British, and already in December British tanks fought near Moscow? Did the good British deliver the tanks before they signed the contract? And how did the British deliver the tanks to Moscow in one month? Is it really transport aviation?

                        I'm not hinting at anything. Google to the rescue
                      2. rotfuks
                        rotfuks 16 November 2021 11: 59
                        0
                        I trust literature and books more, and my own knowledge. And then with Google there is a falsification of facts in the crawl of the owners of Google. You, too, if you are engaged in self-education, then go out of their circle of knowledge at a Sunday school at the synagogue. And then Valentine tanks first appeared in the Red Army in 1942 and en masse in 1944, and you already fought for Moscow in 1941. Do you in your area tell fairy tales about the war or show cartoons?
                      3. Pilat2009
                        Pilat2009 16 November 2021 13: 27
                        0
                        Quote: rotfuks
                        I trust literature and books more, and my own knowledge. And then with Google there is a falsification of facts in the crawl of the owners of Google. You, too, if you are engaged in self-education, then go out of their circle of knowledge at a Sunday school at the synagogue. And then Valentine tanks first appeared in the Red Army in 1942 and en masse in 1944, and you already fought for Moscow in 1941. Do you in your area tell fairy tales about the war or show cartoons?

                        If you don’t like Google, use Yandex. If you don’t know something, it doesn’t mean that the Earth is flat.
                      4. rotfuks
                        rotfuks 16 November 2021 13: 56
                        0
                        Yes Yes. History is being altered before our eyes. The role of the United States and Britain in the victory over fascism is inflating like a soap bubble. British tanks have already defended Moscow. Ten years later, we will be told that British tanks defended the Brest Fortress and took part in the battles for Kiev. And no one is bothered by the fact that the first combat use of Valentine tanks was in the battles for Tobruk in November 1941. Just the wonders of logistics of those times. In November 1941 this tank appeared in Africa and in December near Moscow.
                      5. Pilat2009
                        Pilat2009 17 November 2021 06: 06
                        0
                        Quote: rotfuks
                        Yes Yes. History is being altered before our eyes. The role of the United States and Britain in the victory over fascism is inflating like a soap bubble. British tanks have already defended Moscow. Ten years later, we will be told that British tanks defended the Brest Fortress and took part in the battles for Kiev. And no one is bothered by the fact that the first combat use of Valentine tanks was in the battles for Tobruk in November 1941. Just the wonders of logistics of those times. In November 1941 this tank appeared in Africa and in December near Moscow.

                        Do you seriously think that the same tank fought near Tobruk and Moscow? Well, read the memoirs of Zhukov chtoli or someone else. Just here recently one comrade suggested counting German ganomages for the beginning of the war for tanks, and in the amount released during all the years of the war. and magically the Germans had an advantage in tanks
                      6. rotfuks
                        rotfuks 17 November 2021 14: 30
                        0
                        The tank was not one but a whole series of valentine tanks. At that time, it took at least four months to deliver multi-ton tanks from England to Tobruk or Moscow. So the tanks were sent on the road in the middle of 1941. There are no questions about Tobruk, these were the planned supplies of the War Ministry. But with what joy did the British send their tanks to the communist USSR in the middle of the year so that the tanks would be near Moscow in December? Who paid for these tanks? Who signed the contract for the supply of tanks? And this despite the fact that negotiations on Lend-Lease began in December 1941.
                  2. Pilat2009
                    Pilat2009 15 November 2021 21: 32
                    -2
                    Quote: rotfuks
                    Before you fence the tops

                    Sculpt minuses Benya, sculpt
  4. Overlock
    Overlock 14 November 2021 15: 58
    +15
    One factor unaccounted for by the command did not give the German troops to capture Moscow in 1941

    As my South African friend answered this question, "it was cold."
    But seriously, this factor is courage, dedication, self-sacrifice of a SOVIET person, soldier and citizen. Everything else from the evil one
    1. begemot20091
      begemot20091 14 November 2021 16: 13
      +19
      exactly. I recently visited Fort 11 in Kaliningrad, where the Germans surrendered, and there was more than one such fort. how they were stormed by our fathers, God alone, and they know the kingdom of heaven. the Germans did not take this into account. although the fascist troops differed from the real noneshnye Ukrainian military pe-d-er -... in, but our grandfathers and fathers had a stronger hand, their eyes were accurate. and what our mothers got ... so they grew old before the deadline
      1. Cormoran
        Cormoran 14 November 2021 17: 46
        +3
        Correctly stormed. Technically. With the support of the right calibers in the right amount. Look at the ratio of losses.
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 14 November 2021 20: 18
        +4
        Quote: begemot20091
        exactly. I recently visited Fort 11 in Kaliningrad, where the Germans surrendered, and there was more than one such fort. how they were stormed by our fathers, God alone, and they know the kingdom of heaven.

        In fact, how the forts were stormed has long been known. Everything was done in a classic way: first, artillery, including OM and BM, softened the defense during the general artillery barrage.
        Then the artillery groups began to work on specific structures assigned for the assault - to drive the garrison into shelters and work to suppress the enemy artillery, the fire of which hindered the advance of our infantry. After the infantry reached the crests of the ramparts of the forts, the artillery of the NPP began to work to suppress the visible firing points, and to destroy the hidden OTs (first of all, the caponiers and half-caponiers of the main moat of the forts, the loopholes of which were 6 meters below the level of the ridge of the ramparts), sappers and chemists.
        During the assault on Fort No. VIII, the central caponier was suppressed by the fire of seven FOGs, after which the infantry rushed into the fort and the garrison surrendered.
        During the assault on Fort No. IX, the firing points of the fort were suppressed by the fire of the NPP artillery, tanks and self-propelled guns, under the cover of which the sappers installed and activated a charge that destroyed the central caponier. Another group of sappers defused the charges placed by the Germans on the bridge over the moat, thus providing a convenient path to the gate. The commandant of this fort decided not to wait for the Soviet infantry to rush inside, and surrendered immediately after our sappers dragged to the gate and prepared a half-ton charge of explosives for detonation. smile

        It should be noted that the forts of Königsberg, modernized before WWII from the calculation of the resistance to 11 "shells, were a tough nut to crack even for the 12" howitzers, which were the limit for the Red Army artillery.
        ... the 329th artillery division (6 305-mm howitzers arr. 1915) fired continuously at Fort No. VIII. The structures of the fort received 78 hits from 305-mm shells. However, there were only five through holes. At the same time, only the right caponier was completely destroyed.

        Fort No. X was fired by 305-mm howitzers of the 330th artillery battalion. 172 shells hit, there were only two through holes, the central entrance was blocked up, the right caponier was destroyed.
        © ABS
    2. DymOk_v_dYmke
      DymOk_v_dYmke 14 November 2021 20: 12
      +1
      Quote: Overlock
      self-sacrifice of the SOVIET person, soldier and citizen.

      + 1
      Exactly Soviet.
    3. valentine light
      valentine light 16 November 2021 15: 06
      0
      True, only the courage and courage of our soldiers and officers did not give the Germans a chance to win.
      To attribute climatic difficulties, I consider it heresy and an insult to the memory of those who
      Fought hard in
      Surroundings and counterattacks.
  5. Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 14 November 2021 16: 00
    +21
    Yes Yes Yes. If not for the rain, if not for the snow, if not for the frost, heat, frost, dew, then we would ... yes.
    1. Clear
      Clear 14 November 2021 16: 50
      +11
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      Yes Yes Yes. If not for the rain, if not for the snow, if not for the frost, heat, frost, dew, then we would ... yes.


      Yeah, and near Stalingrad, the intense heat prevented the Germans. winked

      1. Tusv
        Tusv 14 November 2021 17: 03
        +10
        All these excuses about General Moroz, Admiral Sljakot, stomped in the Belarusian swamps during Operation Bagration. Oh yes, the swamps were not boggy. Pfu on them
        1. Clear
          Clear 14 November 2021 17: 15
          +4
          Quote: Tusv
          All these excuses about General Moroz, Admiral Sljakot, stomped in the Belarusian swamps during Operation Bagration. Oh yes, the swamps were not boggy. Pfu on them

          Our fathers and grandfathers defeated a strong, competent, well-armed enemy. And, under the command of Germany, almost all of Europe fought against us. It's just that our fighters turned out to be more courageous than the soldiers of Germany (not to mention their satellites), our commanders are more competent and professional than the German headquarters and general staffs ... Our labor front turned out to be more sustained and more labor-efficient than the entire industrially enlightened Europe.

          1. DymOk_v_dYmke
            DymOk_v_dYmke 14 November 2021 20: 25
            +2
            Quote: Clear
            Our fathers and grandfathers defeated a strong, competent, well-armed enemy. And, under the command of Germany, almost all of Europe fought against us. It's just that our fighters turned out to be more courageous than the soldiers of Germany (not to mention their satellites), our commanders are more competent and professional than the German headquarters and general staffs ... Our labor front turned out to be more sustained and more labor-efficient than the entire industrially enlightened Europe.

            Long. Highly.
            And not entirely true.
            Precisely won Soviet social order.

            PS The damned try to reduce everything to the level of personalities or their environment,
            you need to look at the root - the social order. hi
            1. Clear
              Clear 16 November 2021 17: 18
              +1
              Quote: DymOk_v_dYmke
              It was the Soviet social system that won.

              Quote: DymOk_v_dYmke
              you need to look at the root - the social order

              Yes, it was then that he was the guarantor of victory.
          2. Revival
            Revival 15 November 2021 11: 31
            0
            Are all our products shown in the picture?
          3. Dmitry V.
            Dmitry V. 16 November 2021 11: 52
            0
            Quote: Clear


            Did the Nebelwerfer 41 also do the Soviet rear?


            A Generation Lost Web Designers!
            1. Clear
              Clear 16 November 2021 17: 20
              +1
              Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
              Quote: Clear


              Did the Nebelwerfer 41 also do the Soviet rear?


              A Generation Lost Web Designers!

              I interpret you about the dedication of our ancestors in the Second World War, and you are hooked on trophies. Well, by God, like little children.
        2. Michael HORNET
          Michael HORNET 14 November 2021 22: 19
          0
          Several factors are always at work at the same time. It would be strange to deny the noticeable influence of the General of Dirt. And then the help of General Frost.
          This is sitting on the couch, but for 7 rubles from Olginsky it all seems nonsense. But in fact, these are quite significant factors.
      2. Ross xnumx
        Ross xnumx 14 November 2021 17: 08
        +6
        Quote: Clear
        Yeah, and near Stalingrad, the intense heat prevented the Germans.

        Frost prevented near Stalingrad. The heat was near Kursk.
        1. Clear
          Clear 14 November 2021 17: 21
          +8
          Quote: ROSS 42
          Quote: Clear
          Yeah, and near Stalingrad, the intense heat prevented the Germans.

          Frost prevented near Stalingrad. The heat was near Kursk.

          Even during the attack on Stalingrad, the mice prevented them. Already one Anglo-Saxon writer wrote a scientific work about this. lol

          In the scientific monograph “Stalingrad”, the famous English military historian Anthony Beevor states: “The 22nd Panzer Division as a reserve formation was not provided with fuel and stood motionless for so long that mice made holes for themselves inside combat vehicles. The animals gnawed through all the electrical wiring, and the tanks, of course, could not be immediately sent into battle. " A third of the tanks of the 22nd Panzer Division of the German Wehrmacht remained in place and did not participate in the counterstrike, which could theoretically prevent or at least slow down the encirclement of Paulus's army. Only in the 204th regiment, out of 104 tanks, rodents disabled 62 units. It is reported by Rambler. Further: https://news.rambler.ru/other/43567471/?utm_content=news_media&utm_medium=read_more&utm_source=copylink
          1. Eroma
            Eroma 14 November 2021 18: 45
            +5
            We defended our native land with the whole world, even the mice fought their partisan war! soldier
          2. DymOk_v_dYmke
            DymOk_v_dYmke 14 November 2021 20: 33
            +2
            If you don't want to fight, you will find any reason
            and the mice - yes, they are our Soviet mice!
            Honor and praise! good
  6. nonsense
    nonsense 14 November 2021 16: 00
    +12
    smile ridiculous ... Of course, this mud did not interfere with the Russian columns ... And by analogy, the November cold snap, which froze the dirt on the roads, did not allow the Red Army to hang the Wehrmacht with lyuly in the fall? I had to wait until winter ... :)
    The fascists will not stop at all ...
    1. DymOk_v_dYmke
      DymOk_v_dYmke 14 November 2021 20: 38
      -1
      Quote: nespich
      And by analogy, the November cold snap, which froze the dirt on the roads, did not allow the Red Army to hang the Wehrmacht with lyuly in the fall? I had to wait until winter ... :)

      Everything is easier: we had to wait until the delivery of the Siberian divisions.
  7. tarakan
    tarakan 14 November 2021 16: 00
    +9
    I offer the "journalist" to head the General Staff of Germany laughing
    1. tralflot1832
      tralflot1832 14 November 2021 16: 10
      +4
      And then do as with Keitel. hi
      1. Ashes of Claes
        Ashes of Claes 14 November 2021 16: 37
        +15
        Quote: tralflot1832
        And then do as with Keitel.

        Rzhu something - I presented the following scene in Karlshorst:
        (Keitel pointing to the Frenchman) - And these also defeated us?
        (Adjutant) - It turns out so ...
        (Keitel) - Remove the Frenchman and put a bucket of Russian mud. This is even more honest.
        soldier
    2. Dude
      Dude 14 November 2021 19: 20
      0
      Quote: tarakan
      I offer the "journalist" to head the General Staff of Germany laughing

      Better, straight away, the Chiefs of Staff Committee good
  8. Eroma
    Eroma 14 November 2021 16: 02
    +19
    Well, how long can you exaggerate these stories about "General dirt"? fool
    It is high time to finally admit that: they did not calculate their forces, there was a mistake in assessing the mobilization capabilities of the USSR, underestimated the staunchness of Soviet soldiers, and generally did not take into account the professionalism of the Soviet command in the calculations, and they did not know anything about T34 at all! lol
    1. DymOk_v_dYmke
      DymOk_v_dYmke 14 November 2021 21: 02
      -1
      Quote: Eroma
      underestimated resilience Soviet soldier, and did not take into account professionalism in the calculations Soviet command

      Highlighted the main thing. hi
    2. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 14 November 2021 22: 23
      +1
      Events are a combination of factors. Only amateurs who do not understand anything at all and propagandists who write here for money can deny the noticeable influence of weather factors on the course of hostilities
      1. Eroma
        Eroma 14 November 2021 22: 55
        +2
        According to Barbarossa's plan, the Nazis were supposed to win the war before the mud and frost, but they did not take into account a bunch of FACTORS and the war dragged on until the mud and frost wassat and then the dirt prevented them from taking Moscow, and the frosts generally forced them to leave Moscow! tongue
        And what, in your opinion, FACTORS still prevented them from celebrating New 1942 in Moscow?
        1. Michael HORNET
          Michael HORNET 15 November 2021 07: 05
          +3
          Since they are well-known - late start of the campaign, planning and implementation errors, fierce resistance, the need to divert forces to finish off those surrounded in cauldrons, instead of breaking through, the loss of the battle for the North, which left the supply through Murmansk intact, with relative air supremacy of the USSR aviation remained active and bitten painfully, the presence of surprises such as the T-34 and Katyusha unpleasant for the enemy, which had to be taken into account, the weakness of its own logistics, and multiplied by extremely extended communications, the lack of preparation of equipment and l / s for actions in adverse weather factors. As a result, yes, this is what happened - they did not fit into the plan, and the chances of moving forward outside the plan were also adjusted by Mud and Frost, you cannot fight in summer uniforms in winter
  9. wandlitz
    wandlitz 14 November 2021 16: 05
    +27
    The most important mistake of German politicians and the Wehrmacht command is one -
    THEY ARE ATTACKING THE WRONG COUNTRY.
    As our school teacher, a veteran of the Great Patriotic War, Nikolai Yakovlevich Goryainov, liked to say, "Don't put your pork snout into our Soviet vegetable garden."
    1. IGOR GORDEEV
      IGOR GORDEEV 14 November 2021 16: 56
      +1
      Quote: wandlitz
      The most important mistake of German politicians and the Wehrmacht command is one -
      THEY ARE ATTACKING THE WRONG COUNTRY.

      This is scary.
      Suddenly Nazi Germany climbed into the USSR, leaving Britain in the rear. I don't understand why we climbed ...
      It is scary that the collective mind of the country's leadership may refuse and lead to a large-scale tragedy.
      So in our time, and expect that the leadership of some non-small country will go down the roof.
      1. DymOk_v_dYmke
        DymOk_v_dYmke 14 November 2021 20: 47
        0
        Quote: IGOR GORDEEV
        So in our time, and expect that the leadership of some non-small country will go down the roof.

        Especially if he is strained or raped from the outside while remaining "on the sidelines".
  10. race
    race 14 November 2021 16: 08
    +6
    ... Kellerhoff is sure that the rains unaccounted for by the German command did not allow the Germans to continue their attack on Moscow

    I've already made a discovery! I thought for a long time, I guess. It would be interesting to ask him, what prevented the Wehrmacht from capturing Moscow in November 1941? Come rains too?
  11. Cowbra
    Cowbra 14 November 2021 16: 11
    +13
    After all, these bastards are Russian. They will come up with winter, then generally autumn.
    One question - it took them 80 years to find out that autumn is coming after the summer? And before that, the Germans had not been in WWI in Russia, and did they know that autumn and winter can happen here?
    1. Rusticolus
      Rusticolus 14 November 2021 16: 37
      +8
      Everything is according to the classics. Never when this was not, and now again.
  12. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 14 November 2021 16: 14
    +9
    The weather had a bad effect on the offensive of the German troops ... And it did not affect our troops?
    1. wow
      wow 14 November 2021 16: 28
      +8
      Like in football - teams play in the rain, one wins, and the other blames this damn rain for the loss ....
  13. svp67
    svp67 14 November 2021 16: 20
    +6
    Thus, Kellerhoff is sure that the rains unaccounted for by the German command did not allow the Germans to continue their attack on Moscow and capture the Russian capital.

    Why are you military professionals, general staff officers, for not taking into account the weather conditions ...
    At the same time, the Russians took full advantage of the respite and put their units in order, preparing to repel the German offensive.

    So I understand that on the Russian side of the front there was no rain, no slush, no off-road ... there were just hothouse conditions
    The weather factor played a decisive role in the battle of Moscow, he sums up.
    Bad dancer ...
    1. DymOk_v_dYmke
      DymOk_v_dYmke 14 November 2021 20: 55
      0
      Quote: svp67
      Bad dancer ...

      Uh-huh.
      Every now and again. Over the centuries.
      And without a chance of admonition, alas. hi
    2. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 14 November 2021 22: 26
      0
      No, they also interfered. But these factors hinder ADVANCERS more. Plus a loss of 10 to 1. And extended communications, and the lack of proper preparation for the winter. All together and played. Attempts at cheap paid propagandists from United Russia are so ridiculous that it makes no sense to build a serious dialogue with them.
      1. your1970
        your1970 15 November 2021 12: 07
        0
        Quote: Michael HORNET

        -1
        No, they also interfered. But these factors hinder ADVANCERS more.
        - that is, it is easier for the defenders ???
        Ah yes, Suvorov, "build a line of defense and wait."
        And more
        Meeeedly, by letter - even if the spacecraft had surrendered immediately, the USSR would have lost and the Wehrmacht would have entered the Astrakhan Arkhangelsk line. That's fantastic and delusional, but suddenly - what would they do with the occupied territory ???
        Approximately 6 million square kilometers for 4,8 million soldiers ...
        Who would they occupy? 1 soldier per 30-50 sq. Km ???
        With - "subhuman Slavs?
        They are at much In a smaller zone of occupation, they rested their foreheads against the wall - that there were territories where there were no occupiers at all ...

        So I think that the German General Staff specially programmed the defeat of Germany, even in the event of her victory. Well, they could not help but understand the size of the territory ...
        And they all knew about the weather - they were here, and there was meteorological data. Some of them were in captivity here in WWI ...
        And this is without taking into account the knowledge about the spacecraft about which they also had an idea ...

        So either the intent to overthrow Hitler by the hands of the USSR (which happened belay ) or the General Staff of Germany - a bunch of boobies of the king of heaven who are afraid to entrust a platoon
        1. Pilat2009
          Pilat2009 17 November 2021 06: 22
          0
          Quote: your1970
          Quote: Michael HORNET

          -1
          No, they also interfered. But these factors hinder ADVANCERS more.
          - that is, it is easier for the defenders ???
          Ah yes, Suvorov, "build a line of defense and wait."
          And more
          Meeeedly, by letter - even if the spacecraft had surrendered immediately, the USSR would have lost and the Wehrmacht would have entered the Astrakhan Arkhangelsk line. That's fantastic and delusional, but suddenly - what would they do with the occupied territory ???
          Approximately 6 million square kilometers for 4,8 million soldiers ...
          Who would they occupy? 1 soldier per 30-50 sq. Km ???
          With - "subhuman Slavs?
          They are at much In a smaller zone of occupation, they rested their foreheads against the wall - that there were territories where there were no occupiers at all ...

          So I think that the German General Staff specially programmed the defeat of Germany, even in the event of her victory. Well, they could not help but understand the size of the territory ...
          And they all knew about the weather - they were here, and there was meteorological data. Some of them were in captivity here in WWI ...
          And this is without taking into account the knowledge about the spacecraft about which they also had an idea ...

          So either the intent to overthrow Hitler by the hands of the USSR (which happened belay ) or the General Staff of Germany - a bunch of boobies of the king of heaven who are afraid to entrust a platoon

          You forget about the collaborators. Firstly, there were enough people who wanted to serve the Germans, the same unfinished White Guards, secondly, traitors to the new wave, Vlasovites. And thirdly, genocide, the settlement of territories by Germans. How did Chubais say there? 2 million people are enough to service the pipe.
          1. your1970
            your1970 17 November 2021 10: 22
            0
            Quote: Pilat2009
            You forget about the collaborators. Firstly, there were enough people who wanted to serve the Germans, the same unfinished White Guards, secondly, traitors to the new wave, Vlasovites. And thirdly, genocide.

            Collaborators and Vlasovites could only be the lowest echelon of the administrative apparatus - policemen and wardens. No more ... But the Germans would be stupidly lacking ..
            Genocide, yes! But troubles, they needed agricultural products, and for this they need a mass of the population. They did not really succeed in this already in Ukraine, and even having reached the "AA" line, their life would have forced them to automatically reduce repressions. Simply because there would be no one to plow. ..
            Well, the partisans / Red Army ...

            So the plan for the occupation of the USSR was unrealistic even in theory ...
  14. Prisoner
    Prisoner 14 November 2021 16: 23
    +5
    Neither rain nor frost prevented ours from breaking into your Wehrmacht on the first day and taking Berlin. Conclusion: God is for us. He who is against us is against God. So be silent in a rag the Aryans are unfinished! winked
    1. Region-25.rus
      Region-25.rus 14 November 2021 16: 29
      -5
      Conclusion: God is for us, whoever is against us is against God.
      and in the course that the Germans also believed that God was for them? they even wrote on the buckles - "Gott mit uns". Or did God help you win? So we just had the majority of atheists if that. Or they flew around Moscow with the icon and that's it! Victory! So what?
      1. Prisoner
        Prisoner 14 November 2021 16: 31
        +1
        You never know what they thought? The main thing, according to the Chief.
      2. Clear
        Clear 14 November 2021 17: 03
        -1
        Quote: Region-25.rus
        Conclusion: God is for us, whoever is against us is against God.
        and in the course that the Germans also believed that God was for them? they even wrote on the buckles - "Gott mit uns". Or did God help you win? So we just had the majority of atheists if that.


        Why be aware of what the Germans thought about God?
        God, without any inscriptions, is able to choose for whom he is.
        1. Region-25.rus
          Region-25.rus 14 November 2021 20: 05
          -4
          there used to be a saying - "Shiza mows our ranks." Now relevant - "Obscurantism mows our ranks." Well, .... if there is a fire in your life, a robbery, illness in your family. At work, salary will not be paid. You don't call the firemen, the police, or the ambulance ... or the prosecutor's office! Pray! And the Almighty will lower medicine from heaven, extinguish the fire, lower some money on a parachute ... good luck in general!
          1. Clear
            Clear 15 November 2021 19: 10
            +1
            Quote: Region-25.rus
            there used to be a saying - "Shiza mows our ranks." Now relevant - "Obscurantism mows our ranks."
            How are you about yourself radically critical. Maybe not all is lost !? winked


            Quote: Region-25.rus
            Well, .... if there is a fire in your life, a robbery, illness in your family. At work, salary will not be paid.
            Well, thank you, benefactor ... I, I'm incredibly glad to see you too lol


            Quote: Region-25.rus
            At work, salary will not be paid. You don't call the firefighters, or the police, or the ambulance ... or the prosecutor's office!
            I will not if taxes on their maintenance cease to be charged from me.


            Quote: Region-25.rus
            And the Almighty will lower medicines from heaven, extinguish the fire, lower some money on a parachute ...
            ... and give 500 popsicles.
        2. Alex Justice
          Alex Justice 15 November 2021 17: 28
          -2
          It is ridiculous to read the discussions on whose side the fairytale character is God.
      3. boris epstein
        boris epstein 14 November 2021 17: 09
        +4
        Russian proverb: "God is God, but be good yourself!"
      4. den3080
        den3080 14 November 2021 20: 31
        +2
        Quote: Region-25.rus
        Conclusion: God is for us, whoever is against us is against God.
        and in the course that the Germans also believed that God was for them? they even wrote on the buckles - "Gott mit uns". Or did God help you win? So we just had the majority of atheists if that. Or they flew around Moscow with the icon and that's it! Victory! So what?

        Ukroshumer also shout: ukroina ponad mustache
        And?
        about the Great Patriotic War ...
        How is it in Europe? Historically, everyone has won, won and the like many times over.
        In Europe, it is customary to give up. Better to surrender than to destroy my house, the neighboring butcher's and bakery, as well as a hairdresser's, a cafe and a pub.
        So they have been fighting for centuries, not a stretch smile
        And only when an army, invincible by their European standards, appears, they climb into Russia, where it is absolutely natural that they get it according to mustal, because their invincible thoughts somehow do not extend beyond the capture of Moscow, they simply lack the scale.
        Here we will seize Moscow and conclude peace on favorable terms for us -
        the leitmotif was one, without going into the nuances of Napoleon and Hitler.
        Yoprst ... and from Moscow to Vladivostok two weeks on a fast train still go like this (Napoleon is no longer taking)? - Yeah ... well, the Japanese will help ...
        Well gygy, flag in hand.
      5. Kozak Za Bugra
        Kozak Za Bugra 15 November 2021 12: 09
        0
        know that the Germans also believed that God was for them? even wrote on the buckles - "Gott mit uns"

        Well, first of all, they had the buckles from the WWI, when maybe they believed in God and not in Providence and in Tula.

        So we just had the majority of atheists, if that

        I will not speak for everyone, but my grandfather, officially an atheist, became a believer in the Second World War.

        At the expense of the icon, it's a fantasy. But an interesting fact for reflection, whenever a certain force of society denies good and morality and begins to do evil, this force always comes to an end from the force with the highest morality, it may make sense to see the will of God in this ... That evil is always punishable.
    2. Overlock
      Overlock 14 November 2021 16: 45
      -1
      Quote: Captive
      Conclusion: God is for us. He who is against us is against God.

      With God, it would be more careful somehow. But what about the 30 million of our compatriots who died in the war. The ratio is not in our favor
      1. IGOR GORDEEV
        IGOR GORDEEV 14 November 2021 17: 02
        +10
        Quote: Overlock
        Quote: Captive
        Conclusion: God is for us. He who is against us is against God.

        With God, it would be more careful somehow. But what about the 30 million of our compatriots who died in the war. The ratio is not in our favor

        So ours in Germany did not arrange such lawlessness as they did with their satellites in our country. In terms of military losses, they are approximately equal, if I am not mistaken.
        1. Overlock
          Overlock 14 November 2021 17: 05
          -4
          Quote: IGOR GORDEEV
          In terms of military losses, they are approximately equal, if I am not mistaken.

          According to Krivosheev: the USSR in killed and perished from wounds 6,3 million versus 4,3 million in Germany.
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 14 November 2021 17: 17
            +5
            According to the same Krivosheev: data on the losses of the Germans in the spring of 1945 have not been preserved.
            1. Overlock
              Overlock 14 November 2021 17: 32
              -8
              Quote: Aviator_
              data on the losses of the Germans in the spring of 1945 have not been preserved.

              So there was no time to write down, I had to run. Several months compared to years - I suppose it is insignificant
              1. Aviator_
                Aviator_ 14 November 2021 18: 20
                +4
                It is, of course, so, but the pace of our offensive in Operation Bagration on the prepared defense of the Germans was higher than their offensive across Belarus in 1941 against an unprepared defense. But as for the years and months - so the mortality rate in the prisoner of war camps between them and ours differed at times.
              2. Andrey VOV
                Andrey VOV 14 November 2021 19: 33
                0
                You are wrong, a lot, a lot ... and not only the months of 45 ...
        2. Cormoran
          Cormoran 14 November 2021 17: 57
          -1
          You are wrong. Although ... what counts as "military losses".
        3. Michael HORNET
          Michael HORNET 15 November 2021 07: 08
          -1
          Well, if 5 to 1 in military losses is equal, then yes,
          1. Alex_1973
            Alex_1973 15 November 2021 21: 42
            0
            Michael HORNET
            Well, if 5 to 1 in military losses is equal, then yes,
            Where did you get this nonsense? The losses of the Red Army over the entire war are estimated (according to various estimates) at 7-11 million people. Do you want to say that the Wehrmacht lost only 1,4-2,2 million ?! And where did the conscript generation of Germans go then, since Berlin was defended by youths from the Hitler Youth and old men from Volkssturm? Ahhh ... let me guess, probably all of them were destroyed by the Anglo-Americans at El Alamein and in the Ardennes ... wassat
      2. Kozak Za Bugra
        Kozak Za Bugra 15 November 2021 12: 37
        +1
        Hello, we must take into account the complete picture of losses.
        1. The Germans destroyed our population purposefully, our troops did not do it.
        2. Our prisoners were deliberately destroyed in the same way, German prisoners in Soviet camps were not destroyed.
        3. The ratio of losses considering the USSR against Germany is not correct, because Nada should be taken into account and Czechs, Finns, Croats, French, etc., and a more acceptable figure will turn out.
        4. Take into account, for example, the fact that the Germans lost about 30 thousand soldiers to the capture of France, and the French lost 370 thousand, the ratio was more than 1:10, and this in a month! What if the French had fought for at least one year?
        1. Clear
          Clear 15 November 2021 19: 18
          +1
          Quote: Kozak Za Bugra
          Hello, we must take into account the complete picture of losses.
          1. The Germans destroyed our population purposefully, our troops did not do it.
          2. Our prisoners were deliberately destroyed in the same way, German prisoners in Soviet camps were not destroyed.
          3. The ratio of losses considering the USSR against Germany is not correct, because Nada should be taken into account and Czechs, Finns, Croats, French, etc., and a more acceptable figure will turn out.
          4. Take into account, for example, the fact that the Germans lost about 30 thousand soldiers to the capture of France, and the French lost 370 thousand, the ratio was more than 1:10, and this in a month! What if the French had fought for at least one year?

          Well, what are you, "this is different." They have a wrong Russia since the time of Ivan III Vasilyevich the Great - the prince of Moscow and the actual creator of the Moscow state. Who stopped all their unpunished robberies.

          "Keep my name honest and menacing!"
          Ivan III
  15. Yaro Polk
    Yaro Polk 14 November 2021 16: 26
    +4
    Wet dreams of modern nemchura have not gone anywhere, they just removed them to the "closet" for a while, then they can shake off the dust from their grandfather's SS uniforms.
    Judging by their new historians, and at Prokhorovka, the USSR was defeated.
  16. wow
    wow 14 November 2021 16: 26
    +4
    Everything is correct - there was only one factor and this is a complete absence of historical memory, or rather just one of its fad, which read: ... do not climb, you will be more whole ....
  17. Murmur 55
    Murmur 55 14 November 2021 16: 26
    +8
    Here's how not to swear BAD WORDS here ?!
    EXPERTS !!!! The Nazis were broken by the will of the SOVIET PEOPLE, the will of some to stand to death, to fight to the last, the will of others who stood at the machines, the will of those who worked in the countryside, THEIR desire to WIN and broke the back of the Nazis, and rain, frost, lack of ammunition is an excuse for BAD DANCERS.
  18. gregor6549
    gregor6549 14 November 2021 16: 30
    0
    The non-aggression pact signed with Japan also played an important role in the fact that Moscow managed to defend it. This made it possible to remove a large number of military units from the Far East and transfer them to Moscow, where they arrived at the most critical moment. And it was this that made it possible to turn the tide in favor of the Red Army, and not the harsh Russian climate and "General Frost", which allegedly prevented the Wehrmacht from taking the capital of the USSR. A bad dancer is always hindered by something. But no sooner had the Far East reached Moscow in time, it is not known how everything would have turned out. The reserves of the Supreme Command of the KR Army near Moscow were practically used up and everyone who was a friend (cadets of military schools, civilian militia, etc.) had to plug the holes in the defense of the troops of the troops. So the fresh and fully staffed Far Eastern divisions turned out to be exactly the straw that they managed to grab onto and stay afloat. And then go to the famous counteroffensive near Moscow.
    1. Ashes of Claes
      Ashes of Claes 14 November 2021 16: 57
      -2
      Quote: gregor6549
      and not the harsh Russian climate and "General Frost", which allegedly prevented the Wehrmacht from taking the capital of the USSR.

      It's about General Dirt. Von Bock, Tippelskirch, Guderian - all of them had the Typhoon stuck in muddy roads. And the lower the rank of the writer, the more vivid the picture of the mud apocalypse during the Typhoon. Well, this is logical - the general's "Opel" are pulling the khanomag over the slabs, and the infantry kneads the mud with their boots, pushing trucks along the way.
      But in fact, from such a prolific historian as Kellerhoff (more than a dozen works) it is strange to hear that the main reason for the failure of the Typhoon is the weather factor. Damn him if this was written by a columnist of some newspaper from Honduras. But a German, and even a historian ...
      1. thinker
        thinker 14 November 2021 17: 56
        0
        I did not understand - "But to a German, and even a historian ..."! What is the delight in his knowledge? Was it not this fruit that wrote an article about Prokhorovka - "Victory" of the Red Army, which was actually a defeat. What a historian! fool
        1. Ashes of Claes
          Ashes of Claes 14 November 2021 19: 59
          -1
          Quote: thinker
          I did not understand - "But to a German, and even a historian ..."! What is the delight in his knowledge?

          What, nafig, "delights"? Where did you see them in my remark?
          Quote: thinker
          Was it not this fruit that wrote an article about Prokhorovka?

          He is the most, yes. He is a gay person. laughing Like Samsonov. Samsonov would have to whine about the superethnos and fire up the damned Anglo-Saxons who do not allow the hyperboreyushka to straighten their shoulders. And the Germans somehow hurt the Red Army and prove that all its victories are accidental, involuntary, contrary to military logic and cannot be counted. I am also jarred by this crafty dilettantism, and I do not understand - why is this on VO?
    2. Andrey VOV
      Andrey VOV 14 November 2021 19: 34
      0
      You are a little wrong ..
    3. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 14 November 2021 22: 29
      +1
      ALL factors always play a role, ALL. Stubborn stupid attempts not to notice some factor from the set speaks of mental limitation or writing for money, nothing more
      1. Ashes of Claes
        Ashes of Claes 15 November 2021 10: 43
        -2
        Quote: Michael HORNET
        ALL factors always play a role, ALL. Stubborn stupid attempts not to notice some factor from the set speaks of mental limitation or writing for money, nothing more

        Of course. And thaw is part of this complex of problems of the Wehrmacht in the autumn campaign of 1941. And I agree with you that falling into two extremes - either the weather one, like Kellerhof, or the pretentious one, like the local hyperpatriots - is extremely unwise.
  19. Ashes of Claes
    Ashes of Claes 14 November 2021 16: 32
    +2
    Damn, I thought, some new excuse for the Wehrmacht ... but no, like Zhvanetsky:
  20. ODERVIT
    ODERVIT 14 November 2021 16: 34
    +4
    Germans have been the main war criminals for centuries. Their descendants began to forget, but we do remember and will not forgive.
    1. 2 Level Advisor
      2 Level Advisor 15 November 2021 11: 43
      0
      The Japanese will be worse with their atrocities in WWII .. but the Nazis are in 2nd place unambiguously .. and if for the USSR - in the first ...
  21. boris epstein
    boris epstein 14 November 2021 16: 40
    +11
    Ha ha ha! Let the author read the memoirs of the beaten fascist generals. There is a strategic funnel here (lengthening the front line as you move deeper into Soviet territory), and bad roads even in summer (dust), which caused accelerated wear of German technology engines, tracked vehicles, cannon barrels, General Moroz, who planted German aircraft near Moscow and stopped the equipment (what are the cemeteries of German equipment in the photographs after the counteroffensive of the Red Army near Moscow), then the delays unforeseen by Barbarossa's plan near Kiev, Leningrad, Sevastopol, Odessa and even the defense of the Brest Fortress (seemingly a small episode) distracted the whole army corps of General Schroth for a whole month, a counterattack near Yelnya, selfless resistance of the encircled Soviet troops in cauldrons (which was not in the West and was not foreseen in the Barbarossa plan), a partisan movement that began (which, in the opinion of the Wehrmacht generals, did not correspond to the rules of war). Yes, the beaten fascists blame Hitler, but if they had planned ... In general, the author would at least read Halder's "War Diary". "From the first days of the war, it became clear that we have to fight with Russia according to ALL RULES of military science, while in the West we allowed ourselves some indulgences."
    1. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 14 November 2021 22: 33
      -2
      So what do you see contradictory or unrealistic here? Many factors, each of which contributed. But instead of accepting everything in the aggregate, as it is, some powders single out one factor and consider it the only significant one, and the rest of the totality of factors does not exist or are not able to provide any attention. For powders, this is extremely typical, especially for those who write here for money.
      1. Ashes of Claes
        Ashes of Claes 15 November 2021 10: 05
        +2
        Quote: Michael HORNET
        But instead of taking everything together, as it is, some powders highlight one factor.

        that is, Kellerhoff is a "powder"?
        1. your1970
          your1970 15 November 2021 12: 13
          +1
          Quote: Ashes of Klaas
          Quote: Michael HORNET
          But instead of taking everything together, as it is, some powders highlight one factor.

          that is, Kellerhoff is a "powder"?

          What a "powder" !!!!
      2. boris epstein
        boris epstein 15 November 2021 16: 07
        0
        Where and what is my contradiction? Is that the factor was not the same? So I have not called everything yet., Which the beaten fascists invent languages.
  22. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 14 November 2021 16: 41
    +5
    Halder's note from mid-November helps to understand why the Wehrmacht could not take Moscow in the fall of 41.
    He ordered to send him reports from various military units of the Center group: the number of tanks in good condition.
    A week later, I calculated: a total of 72 tanks on the move.
    And Halder gave the order to go over to the defensive. Wintering before the spring offensive.
    But wintering was not destined to happen.
    After 4 days, the Red Army launched an offensive.
    With fresh divisions, pulled up from the Far East and Siberia.
  23. kebzuref
    kebzuref 14 November 2021 16: 46
    +4
    Again whining about the winter from the losers of the loshar (for reference, Soviet Russia also fought in these winter conditions), the war went on for 5 years, that is, the Germans had the opportunity at least 3 times to take revenge in the warm season, but they still lost, because they degenerates who did not calculate the strength of the strength of the parties and the fighting spirit of the people of Soviet Russia, namely Russian.
    1. Cormoran
      Cormoran 14 November 2021 17: 59
      +3
      It was the Soviet Union.
      1. kebzuref
        kebzuref 14 November 2021 21: 34
        0
        Your so-called Soviet Union was based on the huge foundation of Russia and its Russian people, so no need to be clever here, it was Soviet Russia!
        1. Cormoran
          Cormoran 15 November 2021 09: 52
          +1
          Imagine for a second that you are alone in 41. Have you presented? We were all Russians then. And the Union was the highest limit of the Russians. For this they hate him.
        2. -Dmitry-
          -Dmitry- 15 November 2021 12: 56
          +1
          Your so-called Soviet Union was based on the huge foundation of Russia and its Russian people, so no need to be clever here, it was Soviet Russia!


          Well, for example, the famous Panfilov division, which performed a feat in the defense of Moscow, was formed in Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan. And it consisted mostly of people from these republics.
          1. kebzuref
            kebzuref 15 November 2021 18: 04
            -1
            Statistics of awards during the Great Patriotic War with orders, medals of the USSR and for conferring the title of Hero of the Soviet Union by nationality as of April 1, 1946. A total of 7 people were awarded. Of these, 330 awarded are Russians (519%), 4 Ukrainians (985%), Belarusians 449 (68%). In total, the "Slavs" among the awardees are 1%. So there is no need to shove one rifle division here, this division is nothing against the background of the entire military machine of Soviet Russia. But the military losses of Soviet Russia by nationality
            Losses
            1. -Dmitry-
              -Dmitry- 15 November 2021 19: 09
              0
              Yes you, I'll look at the natsik.
              So there is no need to shove one rifle division here, this division is nothing against the background of the entire military machine of Soviet Russia.

              And Belarus and Ukraine are not the RSFSR, they were separate union republics.
              1. kebzuref
                kebzuref 17 November 2021 03: 00
                -1
                Your Belarus and Ukraine are artificially created republics, if you don’t know them, they are also Russians, all these three countries emerged from the ancient Russian state, the so-called Ukrainians appeared due to the influence of Austro Hungary and the speech of the politician, and then thanks to the commies, and the so-called Belarus also appeared because of the influence of the Lithuanian principality and then honey agarics thanks to these commies, and so all these peoples, Russians, Ukraine and Belarus, the commies created by dismembering Soviet Russia.
                Since the establishment of Soviet power and until the adoption of the first constitution of the RSFSR, various names were used in relation to the Soviet state:
                Russia, Russian Republic
                Russian Federative Republic
                Soviet Republic of Russia
                Russian Soviet Republic
                Russian Socialist Soviet Republic
                Russian Socialist Federative Soviet Republic
                Russian Federative Soviet Republic
                Socialist Republic of Soviets
                Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic
                1. -Dmitry-
                  -Dmitry- 17 November 2021 04: 33
                  0
                  and then thanks to the commies, and the so-called Belarus also appeared due to the influence of the Lithuanian principality and then honey agarics thanks to these commies, and so all these peoples, Russians, Ukraine and Belarus, the commies created by dismembering Soviet Russia.


                  Yes, you have a mess in your head. And who created Soviet Russia? Aren't they "commies"?

                  In general, everything is clear with you. The drain is accepted.
    2. Edik
      Edik 14 November 2021 18: 53
      +1
      They counted on a blitzkrieg, and Germany was not ready for a protracted war. It is naive to believe that after the capture of Moscow, the USSR would capitulate.
  24. Fedorovich
    Fedorovich 14 November 2021 16: 48
    +3
    Well, a bad dancer knows what always gets in the way ...
  25. TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 14 November 2021 16: 57
    +3
    Rzhu nimagu))) another discoverer?)))
  26. Russophile
    Russophile 14 November 2021 16: 58
    +2
    Now they can justify their defeat with anything they want. And the fact that they did not take into account something there only speaks of bad planning.
  27. tuts
    tuts 14 November 2021 16: 58
    +4
    for sure, after all, the rains did not affect the Soviet troops in any way, they interfered exclusively with the Nazi Reich
  28. Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 14 November 2021 17: 00
    +4
    To call this an unaccounted factor is a great cunning for the Germans) They knew very well the state of the Russian KEY highways and roads from the border to Moscow, bridges, crossings, etc. They also knew about the autumn-spring thaw - but they could not calculate the "fat" for force majeure, taking into account how compressed in time the plan was. And force majeure made itself felt, lasted until the autumn of the operation, the timings "went", the enemy had time to wake up and redistribute forces - this is their main jamb. In this case, the climatic tricks were only a consequence of the storming of the entire plan.
  29. Pavel57
    Pavel57 14 November 2021 17: 06
    +1
    They had to win before the thaw and frost. But we stumbled upon the Russians who fought incorrectly.

    The subjunctive mood is indispensable in history, but perhaps, had the Germans attacked in May, there would have been another war.
    1. Konnick
      Konnick 14 November 2021 17: 35
      +5
      perhaps if the Germans had attacked in May, there would have been another war.

      Thanks to the Serbs and Greeks, thanks to the military actions in the Balkans, the attack was postponed for a month and a half.
    2. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
      Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 16 November 2021 10: 35
      0
      All the same, Victory would be ours!
  30. beeper
    beeper 14 November 2021 17: 09
    +5
    Again the old Hitlerite "fairy tales about the white bull" - "General Moroz", the Germans itching to "justify their defeat" ?! fool
    ALL the deceitful Hitlerite generals and other Nazi ... many times have already "sucked and cried" this murderous "sadness" of theirs, instead of praying and repenting for the atrocities and destruction that they did! negative
    And now their "granddaughters" are stinging in the same place that "not everything was foreseen by the" Berlin "strategists" ?! wassat
    And thank God that our heroic ancestors Protected us then from this bloodthirsty "common European" beast!

    Everytime, when I am in my native village and go to my stepfather's graves past the swollen trenches and craters of that war, I recall all this with renewed vigor and mentally I thank all our Soviet Warriors who stood up as an Impenetrable Wall to Hitler's "Drang nach Osten" and liberated us then from the cannibalistic "common European "slavery!
  31. Konnick
    Konnick 14 November 2021 17: 12
    +9
    It cannot be assumed that the weather did not play any role in the defense of Moscow. This is quite primitive, but objectively, the weather prevented us from completely crushing Army Group Center. Relying on the railway junctions of Rzhev Vyazma and Sychevka, the Wehrmacht was able to stop the advance of the Red Army precisely because our troops lacked timely supplies and the possibility of operational transfer of troops. The weather from January 42, went over to the side of the enemy. The 29th army and the 33rd army, which had broken through to Rzhev, to Vyazma, were cut off from supplies and were practically destroyed. While the Germans have established a rail link for themselves. Moreover, there was no continuous front of the encirclement of our 29th and 33rd armies, but it was impossible to supply them in deep snow with blizzards. Hunger and cold were the main opponents. The Germans held out on the Rzhev ledge until the spring of 43. No need to make a crowd of idiots out of the strongest enemy. The victory came at a terrible cost ...
    1. Andrey VOV
      Andrey VOV 14 November 2021 19: 36
      +1
      So no one makes idiots out of them, fear God ... They taught us until the summer of 43, and even before the winter of 44 it was very good, with blood ..
    2. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 14 November 2021 22: 35
      0
      Wow, one thinking person from the crowd of Olginsky bots
  32. Che Prague
    Che Prague 14 November 2021 17: 13
    +3
    German press: One factor unaccounted for by the command did not give the German troops to capture Moscow in 1941

    All these conversations are aimed at one thing: to prepare the future "cannon fodder" for the possibility of another campaign to the East for the Slavic slaves and territories.
    If you remember, we hear such statements from time to time from the moment Russia joined the global network: There is a lot of Earth here, and it is unfair that so much is buried in the ground, and the shelf is a World Heritage and so on, so on, so on. And in recent years, more and more often.
    Now Russia is even accused of something to which it had nothing to do. It was not Russia that invited migrants from the Middle East, but today London blamed it for the migration crisis.
    Russia did not come up with the idea of ​​playing with green energy, but I again blame Russia for the energy crisis.
    This is not just a bell. It's already a siren.
    And in a specific article they hint that you just need to start earlier, and Russia, as it was backward, remains so.
    1. Vasyan1971
      Vasyan1971 14 November 2021 17: 30
      +1
      Quote: Che Prague
      And in a specific article they hint that you just need to start earlier, and Russia, as it was backward, remains so.

      Exactly. And there is no need for us to put the roads in the western direction in order. wassat
  33. rocket757
    rocket757 14 November 2021 17: 19
    +5
    German press: One factor unaccounted for by the command did not give the German troops to capture Moscow in 1941
    Yes, yes, of course, muddy roads to the "glorious Voinov Reich" prevented them, and General Morozov finished them off.
    Old tales about the main thing ...
    I don't even want to discuss this, I'm tired of listening to this nonsense.
    1. Reserve officer
      Reserve officer 14 November 2021 18: 52
      +2
      And also the wind blew - blew off the bullets, the rain came - wet and slippery. And then it's night at all - you can't see anything. Well, how to fight?
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 14 November 2021 19: 58
        +4
        By the way, comparing the Wehrmacht of that period with the present ... it's not even funny.
  34. Vasyan1971
    Vasyan1971 14 November 2021 17: 28
    +5
    Thus, Kellerhoff is sure that the rains unaccounted for by the German command did not allow the Germans to continue their attack on Moscow and capture the Russian capital.

    Yeah. Mud, rain and snow - they only interfered with the Nazis. No.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  35. The comment was deleted.
  36. north 2
    north 2 14 November 2021 17: 51
    +2
    On the crying earth without smelling boots
    Our bloodless squad escapes from enemies
    Feeding on the go with oxalis leaf
    Sleeping in a gully under a viburnum bush
    We can’t rest - run, run, run
    And our supposedly friends sat down over the hill
    And they watch how they beat us without taking their eyes off
    And only long roads are completely for us

    Wipe away the tears, take a rest, I'm on the Russian road
    Go away, and I’ll cover you with mud and water

    But head over heels in the mud, in the water to the very eyes
    After some time, the enemies again caught up with us
    And they beat even harder, that's about to be decided
    But severe frosts are rushing to our rescue

    Wait, dry the tears of fire, we are Russian frosts
    Freeze, notice melancholy, beckoning Moscow

    Nature at war, like a mother to us
    But there is time to bury, and there is time to advance
    And we soon showed up in enemy towns
    And they began to destroy everything around, smashed to smithereens
    Torn to pieces, thrashed in the trash
    And, finishing, explained to the groaning enemies:
    Remember the mysterious tactical device -
    When we retreat, we go forward!

    Along with the cold and forests ahead of Susanin
    It’s just that the Russian Road bequeathed to us from God
    Russian Road, Russian Road, Russian Road ...
  37. Shaman
    Shaman 14 November 2021 17: 54
    +2
    And in the battle for Berlin, spring beriberi in German zoldatik prevented, the weak ones became so lost.
  38. Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 14 November 2021 17: 58
    +2
    From what I read from the Anglo-Saxons and the Germans, by November 41, the Wehrmacht was simply exhausted. Losses, extended communications, fail logistics, nervous fatigue, wear and tear of materiel, etc.
    1. Andrey VOV
      Andrey VOV 14 November 2021 19: 38
      0
      That's right, but we can't discount the fact that our mezcorps are rogibach, and this wedge is also German.
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 14 November 2021 22: 16
        0
        Of course, the losses of the Germans were not from household injuries and colds)).
    2. ankir13
      ankir13 14 November 2021 20: 07
      0
      Do not read the Anglo-Saxons and the Germans, they lie like they breathe, the Wehrmacht is not exhausted, it was exhausted, little green men ... With Red Stars.
      Add also the lack of female affection, to everything listed by the Anglo-Germans-Saxons.
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 14 November 2021 22: 20
        +3
        Quote: ankir13
        Do not read the Anglo-Saxons and the Germans, they lie like they breathe, the Wehrmacht is not exhausted, it was exhausted, little green men ... With Red Stars.
        Add also the lack of female affection, to everything listed by the Anglo-Germans-Saxons.

        All a lot of lies, ours is no less laughing
        At least the Anglo-Saxons write about the fierce resistance of the Red Army, about how the Russians learned to fight in the course of the play and inflict increasingly sensitive losses on the Wehrmacht. Ours, until very recently, wrote about wheelchair users who defended the Atlantic Wall and the Paralympians who defeated the Americans in the Ardennes yes
  39. Konnick
    Konnick 14 November 2021 18: 04
    +4
    Shaman (Anton)

    And in the battle for Berlin, spring beriberi in German zoldatik prevented, the weak ones became so lost.


    And in the battle for Berlin, the weather prevented us. There were spring fogs and inclement weather with low clouds, so it was impossible to reconnoiter the location of German troops on the Seelow Heights. As a result, our artillery hit the squares, and the aviation had to be abandoned. If that number of shells hit the target, and not into empty spaces, then large losses at the end of the war could have been avoided. It was not they who lost, it was we who won ...
    1. Andrey VOV
      Andrey VOV 14 November 2021 19: 38
      +1
      And what were the losses?
      1. ankir13
        ankir13 14 November 2021 20: 15
        0
        All the porridge was lost.
        1. Andrey VOV
          Andrey VOV 14 November 2021 20: 18
          +1
          Did you understand what you wrote ??
      2. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 15 November 2021 11: 24
        0
        "During the assault on the Seelow Heights, which lasted from April 16 to April 19, 1945, 33 thousand Soviet and 5 thousand soldiers of the Polish Army, 12 thousand Wehrmacht soldiers were killed" ///
        ---
        This was a typical frontal assault.
        In the style of 41 years old.
        Zhukov returned to command in 45, and alas, any clever tactics that Soviet generals and marshals had mastered by 44 ceased.
        1. Andrey VOV
          Andrey VOV 15 November 2021 11: 31
          +1
          but name your source
        2. boris epstein
          boris epstein 15 November 2021 16: 28
          0
          According to the science of "Tactics", the losses of the attacker are related to the losses of the defender as four to one. Zhukov was put on the most difficult section, as always. The offensive on the Seelow Heights did not give the opportunity to retreat to the city of the most numerous and combat-ready part of the Wehrmacht grouping (by the way, this grouping was completely defeated), which facilitated the task of flanking the Berlin grouping by neighboring fronts and significantly reduced the losses of the Red Army in street battles. Colonel-General, but you don't know the basics.
  40. Maxim Shalak
    Maxim Shalak 14 November 2021 18: 35
    +4
    Strange, and here is the autumn mud. According to Barbarossa's plan, the Nazis were supposed to defeat the USSR by September ...
    1. Split
      Split 15 November 2021 05: 54
      0
      not К September, and before September 30
  41. TAMBU
    TAMBU 14 November 2021 18: 50
    +1
    babbling baby from Die Welt
  42. Skipper
    Skipper 14 November 2021 18: 50
    +1
    A classic of the genre - they pulled an owl on a globe and said that eggs interfere with a bad dancer.
  43. Sergey39
    Sergey39 14 November 2021 18: 55
    +6
    Whatever the Germans write, We don't care about one place! We took Berlin, THREE times, and what else are they talking about?)))
    1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
      Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 16 November 2021 10: 30
      0
      It will be necessary - and we will take it for the fourth time!
  44. Yulian
    Yulian 14 November 2021 18: 57
    -9
    Of course, the Germans could have captured Moscow after the boilers were closed at Vyazma and Bryansk on October 14, 1941. At that time no one protected the way to Moscow, and Guderian's tanks would have taken 100 km of the road in two days. And Stalin was already ready to surrender by issuing an order to evacuate the state institution on October 15.
    1. Andrey VOV
      Andrey VOV 14 November 2021 19: 39
      +2
      It looks like you are from Bulgaria, "brother", if I were you, I would be silent
      1. Yulian
        Yulian 14 November 2021 19: 51
        +1
        I found out that I am Bulgarian. But I think we need to tell the truth. And the truth is bitter. Soon I read the book by Lev Lepukhovsky "Vyazemskaya catastrophe". I recommend everyone to read it.
        1. Andrey VOV
          Andrey VOV 14 November 2021 20: 08
          +1
          Dear, thank God there are a lot of scientific works about the Vyazemsky cauldron and the archives have been opened and it is recognized that in reality these were two big disasters,
    2. Severomor
      Severomor 14 November 2021 23: 42
      +3
      Quote: Julian
      At that time no one defended the road to Moscow, and Guderian's tanks would have taken 100 km away in two days.

      Why didn't they take it? We got into our supertanks and marched towards Moscow with a super army.
      You need to know the truth, it's right, but the truth is we have it! Our truth, "brother", in quotes it is more correct. And there were no Podolsk cadets, there was no 316 infantry division, there was no Rokossovsky's 19th army, there were no heroic cavalry. buildings of Belov and Dovator.
      There was only mud and mud.
      And yes!
      If you write "honestly" about the Battle of Kursk, then there was no snow, no rain, no frost, no bad weather. It was summer. Write about the Kursk magnetic anomaly, when, as a result of its action, the valiant soldiers of the Wehrmacht, by the way, then your allies, instead of the east went to the west!
      What should I do? Compass showed a different direction
      1. Yulian
        Yulian 15 November 2021 11: 34
        -3
        At mid-October this time no one was on the way to Moscow. And the Germans did not expect that fresh reserves would come and delayed until the complete destruction of the Red Army soldiers who got into the boiler. Imagine what would have happened if the situation repeated itself in Orel, where German tanks unexpectedly appeared, and there was already panic in Moscow after Stalin's order to evacuate on October 15?
  45. Skipper
    Skipper 14 November 2021 19: 01
    0
    I associate these outbursts of clumsy thoughts among the Germans in the fact that if we in Russia wrote an article about how to cut the German people at the root and raze the entire territory of former Germany to the ground, the kindness and mercy of Comrade Stalin prevented.
  46. Nikolay Sayenko
    Nikolay Sayenko 14 November 2021 19: 19
    +2
    The fascist filth was prevented by Russian filth, and the resistance of the Russian soldier did not bother them? In the USSR, by May 9, the memoirs of veterans were usually printed, read, And they never kicked the weather and seasons, took everything for granted. It was hard daily work, demanding the full commitment of physical and mental strength, sometimes life. They stood up and won! Eternal GLORY to them! And let the mongrels of all stripes whine, what else is left for them?
  47. zwlad
    zwlad 14 November 2021 19: 30
    +4
    Napoleon also complained about the weather.
    Well, if our weather bothers you, why don't you try to get in on us.
  48. Andy
    Andy 14 November 2021 19: 31
    +2
    That rain prevented the frost ... but the Red Army had the same problems ... but they survived and won!
  49. Nafanya from the sofa
    Nafanya from the sofa 14 November 2021 19: 38
    -2
    by Sven Kellerhoff.

    Where does he write? In which country? In which media :? In Germany, the propaganda of Nazism and all kinds of memoirs about the Eastern war are FORBIDDEN !. In addition, the Germans diligently avoid it. FAKE!
  50. PPD
    PPD 14 November 2021 19: 43
    0
    Forgot about bears, balalaika and fighting moles.