Military Review

Shotguns in the army: yesterday and today

71
Shotguns in the army: yesterday and today

American servicemen with shotguns (illustrative photo)



In a couple of months, it will be exactly half a century since Maxwell Atchisson in the USA created the AA-12 automatic shotgun (AAS). Atchisson took into account the lessons of the Vietnam War, where guns have proven themselves for the American army for close combat in a wooded area (jungle). It was necessary weapon, which would belong to the automatic, was distinguished by high lethality even in very difficult conditions.

Automatic shotguns for some time occupied their significant niche in a number of armies in the world. First of all, we are talking about the same United States.

How are things going with automatic shotguns in modern armies?

It is quite possible to say that the peak of the relevance of this weapon has passed. Today, a shotgun in the hands of a soldier, even in the American army, can be seen infrequently. However, it is still possible. US National Guard troops with automatic shotguns were stationed, for example, within the walls of the Capitol earlier this year, waiting for attacks from the crowd. In other words, the American National Guards were quite ready to shoot their compatriots to kill, and indiscriminately.

Shotguns remain relevant to a certain extent for assault units. As an option - "deal" with the door, if the power of the weapon is sufficient to cope with the obstacle without using a special explosive device. Some companies even install shotguns as weapons on unmanned aerial vehicles.

Shotguns "yesterday" and today, including the AA-12 shotguns, are described in the report on the Military Business YouTube channel.

71 comment
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  1. Avior
    Avior 11 November 2021 17: 13
    -3
    As an army weapon, the shotgun has lost its relevance with the proliferation of body armor. in the same situation, small-caliber self-defense submachine guns, providing a high density of fire due to an increased rate of fire, range if necessary, large ammunition with a light cartridge, and good work against body armor due to an effective cartridge, will be much more effective than a shotgun
    1. Alexfly
      Alexfly 11 November 2021 17: 38
      +8
      If you fly in 36-38 grams of lead from 20 meters, or even closer, and the fact that you have armor, that you do not, the end is the same. In the first case, from a dynamic impact, and in the second, from blood loss.
      1. Barberry25
        Barberry25 11 November 2021 17: 48
        +4
        a shotgun is a purely police weapon, even in Iraq / Afghanistan they used it in police missions when inspecting the premises, it is not very suitable for military operations, because it is difficult to get 20 meters to the submachine gunners' department, and why not when you have a machine gun, a rifle or machine
      2. Avior
        Avior 11 November 2021 17: 53
        0
        From 20 meters, the dispersion of the shot is large enough so that there is no point impact on the body armor, so that the dynamic impact will be limited.
        Also, to hit with a shotgun from such a distance - you need to aim, you won't get 20-30 meters from the hip.
        And with a modern small-caliber bullet, during aiming with a shotgun, you will receive so many hits that the sieve will be both from you and from a bulletproof vest
        A shotgun only makes sense indoors or at a very short distance - not the most typical military situation.
        You will not order the enemy to stand at a measured distance from you, the most different situations can be, in most of the real army situations the shotgun will only be a hindrance
        1. Alex_You
          Alex_You 11 November 2021 19: 59
          +1
          Even the army team has to clean up the houses from unwanted elements. And this is, well, very rarely a militant in a bulletproof vest, more often he is in pajamas or other everyday clothes. It is trite to knock out the door with a shotgun than to measure a particularly zealous "non-terrorist" with a foot or special ammunition.
          1. Avior
            Avior 13 November 2021 18: 02
            +1
            Not typical for an army situation
        2. Alexfly
          Alexfly 13 November 2021 17: 44
          0
          Try with a bullet, at least Polevskoy, or even Breneke .... The same grams, but I don't want to concentrate very much ..
          1. Avior
            Avior 13 November 2021 19: 31
            0
            Why shoot a bullet from a shotgun if there is a rifled one? Shotgun chokes are not very prone to bullet firing.
            This is if there is no rifle ...
            1. Alexfly
              Alexfly 14 November 2021 12: 03
              +1
              If you keep an eye on the time, only a lazy manufacturer does not make replaceable chokes, which even a bullet does not interfere with, for example a cylinder or a skeet .... A bullet will take out any door lock ..
              1. Avior
                Avior 14 November 2021 20: 57
                0
                Hour by hour is not easier. Army men will change chokes and tighten paradoxes on the fly.
                A bullet will take out any door lock.

                You are confusing the army with the police and special forces. In the army, locks are carried out with a door at best. Usually, together with the building.
                1. Alexfly
                  Alexfly 15 November 2021 12: 25
                  0
                  And they don't need to change the chokes. All short weapons without chokes ... in theory, although you can expect anything from a Russian manufacturer ...
                  1. Avior
                    Avior 15 November 2021 12: 39
                    0
                    For police weapons, they are also produced with interchangeable chokes.
                    But military and police use are not the same
                    1. Alexfly
                      Alexfly 15 November 2021 12: 41
                      0
                      Indoors are not very different ... after all, this is the main thing in using this type of weapon during assaults ..
                    2. Alexfly
                      Alexfly 15 November 2021 12: 44
                      0
                      In addition, the task of the chokes is to increase the pressure and speed of the ammunition, in this case, the bullet .. its deformation is insignificant. Polev's bullet is in a container, Brenneke can also pick up a container .. This is what hunting equipment factories actually do.
                      1. Avior
                        Avior 15 November 2021 12: 54
                        +1
                        if you have an assault rifle, all this is not necessary
                        Indoors are not very different ... after all, this is the main thing in using this type of weapon during assaults ..

                        different
                        where the police use a special shotgun bullet, the army uses a grenade launcher, the same grenade launcher at least.
      3. Two
        Two 12 November 2021 08: 19
        +3
        In our version, the "Wave" product is also attached to the shotgun, the purpose is to force the vehicles to stop, and the shotgun goes in a plastic container to increase accuracy and reduce dispersion.
        1. Avior
          Avior 13 November 2021 19: 59
          +2
          This is a police application, not an army application. In the army, these issues are resolved differently. Moreover, it makes no sense to artificially increase the accuracy of the shot for the army. in the army for this, standard rifled weapons, grenade launchers and other
      4. CTABEP
        CTABEP 14 November 2021 13: 21
        0
        The kinetic energy is less than that of the armor-piercing rifle 7,62 - so if you go to the assault in normal 6a armor with caps, then you only have a bruise on the carcass (unless, of course, it flew into the arm-leg-head).
        And the stories about PP piercing body armor - yes, PDWs work well against light class armor (well, for example, piercing a belt that is dressed in class 2 along with a plate maker), but they also do not take bulletproof BZ.
        1. Avior
          Avior 15 November 2021 13: 00
          0

          When fired from the FN P90, the 5.7 × 28mm SS190 can penetrate the NATO CRISAT vest or a Level IIIA Kevlar vest at a range of 200 m (219 yd). [24] [25]


          When fired with the FN P90, the 5,7x28mm SS190 can penetrate the NATO CRISAT vest or Level IIIA Kevlar vest at 200m (219 yards).

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_5.7%C3%9728mm
          1. CTABEP
            CTABEP 15 November 2021 17: 30
            0
            The Kevlar vest of the 3rd class according to the NATO standard is a little more than our 2nd - protection against 9x19 and .357. Not designed to be protected against a submachine gun cartridge.
            1. Avior
              Avior 15 November 2021 21: 47
              +1
              Not calculated.
              The armor penetration fraction is still much weaker than the PDW bullets.
              And to use a compact PP with a high rate of fire indoors is much more convenient and versatile than a shotgun.
              The IIIA class holds a .44 Magnum bullet weighing 16 grams.
    2. YOUR
      YOUR 12 November 2021 09: 08
      0
      It is quite possible as an additional weapon. In addition, the affected parts of the body are not only under the body armor, face, legs. And have you watched the video? The special weapon is practically a mini-explosive grenade that penetrates the armor plate of 6,3 mm. firing range up to 200 m.
      But it is so. All this is nonsense. One weight is worth the weight with a magazine for 32 rounds of almost 8 kg, and even if you carry additional magazines with you. At the same time, take into account that the AA-12 is not the main weapon. They did not take it into service. Including in the police, not only in the army.
      1. Avior
        Avior 12 November 2021 13: 45
        +3
        It has very specific conditions of use.
        200 meters - much more comfortable with regular weapons. A shotgun will not equally replace a standard machine gun or an assault rifle, so you will have to carry both. And ammunition for them. Different ammunition is good, but you won't be reloading it all the time with these different ammunition.
        This is a special forces or police weapon for special situations, not an army weapon.
  2. Yrec
    Yrec 11 November 2021 17: 14
    -1
    Shotguns were used as mattresses during the war, when the M14 (semi-automatic) and M16 (at the initial stage - also a semi-automatic) were in service. When the M14 was removed from service, and the automatic mode was added to the M16, the need for shotguns disappeared.
  3. Olkhovsky
    Olkhovsky 11 November 2021 17: 45
    -2
    In other words, the American National Guards were quite ready to shoot their compatriots to kill, and indiscriminately.

    I have no doubt in our Rosguards, there will be an order their hand will not flinch against their own people.
    1. Barberry25
      Barberry25 11 November 2021 17: 49
      +1
      well, in situations where they have to use shotguns, there will no longer be a question of working in a crowd ...
    2. Flooding
      Flooding 11 November 2021 17: 49
      0
      Quote: Olkhovsky
      I have no doubt in our Rosguards, there will be an order their hand will not flinch against their own people.

      everyone will shoot?
      or through one?
      it suddenly became interesting
      but for example the soldiers of SOBR and OMON?
      and order bearers and military officers?
      Will you smear everyone with mud or through one?
      1. Olkhovsky
        Olkhovsky 11 November 2021 18: 09
        0
        everyone will shoot?
        or through one?
        it suddenly became interesting
        but for example the soldiers of SOBR and OMON?
        and order bearers and military officers?
        do you think they will break the oath and refuse to obey the order if they do?
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 11 November 2021 18: 47
          -1
          Quote: Olkhovsky
          do you think they will break the oath and refuse to obey the order if they do?


          CC RF
          Article 42.
          Execution of an order or instruction
          ...
          2. A person who has committed a deliberate crime in pursuance of knowingly unlawful orders or instructions shall be criminally liable on a common basis. Failure to comply with a deliberately unlawful order or instruction precludes criminal liability.
          1. Olkhovsky
            Olkhovsky 11 November 2021 20: 02
            -6
            ... RF Criminal Code
            Article 42.
            Execution of an order or instruction
            ...
            2. A person who has committed a deliberate crime in pursuance of knowingly unlawful orders or instructions shall be criminally liable on a common basis. Failure to comply with a deliberately unlawful order or instruction precludes criminal liability.

            Are you seriously ? And the example of shooting and the use of force in the recent Belarusian events to terrorize their own people by the security forces speaks of the opposite.
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 11 November 2021 20: 36
              0
              Quote: Olkhovsky
              the example of shooting and the use of force in the recent Belarusian events against the terror of their own people by the security forces suggests the opposite

              I referred to the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation,
              not on the Criminal Code of the Republic of Belarus

              you asked about Rosgvardia employees
              so with what fright did you jump to the Belarusian security forces?
              1. Olkhovsky
                Olkhovsky 11 November 2021 20: 37
                -7
                so with what fright did you jump to the Belarusian security forces?

                One field of berries because.
                1. Flooding
                  Flooding 12 November 2021 01: 03
                  +2
                  Quote: Olkhovsky
                  One field of berries because.

                  I can, by analogy, write that you are the same berry with those commentators who are always happy to denigrate the Russian state and most often write from outside of it?
                  1. Olkhovsky
                    Olkhovsky 12 November 2021 07: 46
                    -6
                    I can write by analogy

                    You can even knock your head against the wall, but you will also be far from the truth. A blow to the stomach by a Rosguard on a woman in St. Petersburg and other women during rallies in the Russian Federation remind you, or "you don't understand, this is different" - (c)?
                    1. Flooding
                      Flooding 12 November 2021 07: 56
                      +3
                      Quote: Olkhovsky
                      You can even knock your head against the wall, but you will also be far from the truth.

                      so what?
                      the parallels that you apply to others do not apply to you, the one and only?
                      Quote: Olkhovsky
                      A blow to the stomach by a Russian guard of a woman in St. Petersburg and other women during rallies in the Russian Federation remind you

                      this is how the check for lice occurs
                      no one in their right mind would argue that all law enforcement officers are clean before the law, and there are no werewolves among them.

                      but only a provocateur or a scoundrel will, on the basis of these violations, soil all employees, among whom there are decent people, honest professionals, and heroes.

                      this is tantamount to the assertion that all doctors are corrupt and incompetent, based on actual cases.
                      Quote: Olkhovsky
                      or "you don't understand, this is different" - (c)?

                      that's exactly what you did now
                      Rosgvardia employees with Belarusian colleagues - one berry field
                      but when I drew a parallel between you and the angry foreign commentators, you answered exactly that way: "you do not understand! this is different!"
                      1. Olkhovsky
                        Olkhovsky 12 November 2021 08: 07
                        -7
                        do you apply to others, do not apply to you, the one and only?

                        Going to personality? From general to specific and vice versa?
                        but only a provocateur or will, on the basis of these violations, dirty all employees

                        Labeling and denigrating an opponent in an argument.
                        but when I drew a parallel between you and the angry foreign commentators, you answered exactly that way: "you do not understand! this is different!"

                        You are not your native Russian language, is it difficult to understand the meaning of words in Russian? In any case, you chatter the topic and do demogogy. I gave you examples of the excessive violence of the Russian guards against women at peaceful rallies. This is enough to understand that when ordered, they will open fire on the citizens of the Russian Federation, but you turn on the fool and engage in demogogy justifying them. On this we will finish, there is no sense in communicating with you.
                      2. Flooding
                        Flooding 12 November 2021 08: 14
                        +3
                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        Going to personality? From general to specific and vice versa?

                        your identity is unknown to me
                        but something is already being drawn

                        Deduction - this is reasoning from general knowledge to particular
                        Induction - the process of inference based on the transition from a particular position to a general one
                        as you can see, there is nothing wrong with that. the usual way of knowing.
                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        Labeling and denigrating an opponent in an argument.

                        This did not stop you from hanging labels and denigrating all employees of the Russian Guard

                        I just wrote about you: "and for what me! this is different!"
                        you are a classic example

                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        I gave you examples of the excessive violence of the Russian guards against women at peaceful rallies. This is enough to understand that when ordered, they will open fire on the citizens of the Russian Federation, but you turn on the fool and engage in demogogy justifying them. We will end on this, there is no sense in communicating with you

                        it turned out that this is enough only for you. but not for me.
                        do you think your point of view is the only correct one?
                      3. Olkhovsky
                        Olkhovsky 12 November 2021 09: 11
                        -4
                        Skipping above your demogogy, to which there is no point in answering.
                        do you think your point of view is the only correct one?

                        If my point of view is based on logic and supported by facts, then yes.
                      4. Flooding
                        Flooding 12 November 2021 09: 18
                        +2
                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        Skipping above your demogogy, to which there is no point in answering

                        you don’t see the point - it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t
                        it may well be related to your ability to see or your unwillingness to see
                        the ostrich, they say, in such cases hides its head in the sand
                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        If my point of view is based on logic and supported by facts, then yes.

                        your point of view is based on the assumption that Rosgvardia employees are what you want them to be.
                        but this is not at all a fact.
                      5. Olkhovsky
                        Olkhovsky 12 November 2021 09: 30
                        -4
                        the ostrich, they say, in such cases hides its head in the sand
                        ostriches do not hide their heads in the sand, this is a common misconception. This is so for you to broaden your horizons.
                        your point of view is based on the assumption that the employees of the National Guard are

                        My point of view is based on the facts that I cited above, on observing the behavior of their colleagues in similar and even more extreme situations. Based on this, logic allows us to infer how they will act. Are you familiar with such a section of knowledge as logic? Studied at a university? It can be seen from your reasoning that, at best, you got credit for a bottle of cognac without attending lectures, if you have a law degree.
                      6. Flooding
                        Flooding 12 November 2021 09: 42
                        +3
                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        ostriches do not hide their heads in the sand, this is a common misconception

                        which has become a common figurative expression
                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        This is so for you to broaden your horizons.

                        and the lion is not the "king of beasts"
                        a giraffe does not "come to a giraffe"
                        turkey is not inflated
                        and the peacock is not narcissistic

                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        It can be seen from your reasoning that, at best, you received credit for a bottle of cognac without attending lectures, if you have a legal education

                        is it written by a citizen who recently opposed the transition to personalities?
                        okay, I've been discussed
                        and on the subject have something to say?
                      7. Olkhovsky
                        Olkhovsky 12 November 2021 09: 47
                        -5

                        which has become a common figurative expression

                        Educated people are aware that this is typical stupidity and do not use it in speech.
                        .a lion is not the "king of beasts"
                        a giraffe does not "come to a giraffe"
                        turkey is not inflated
                        and the peacock is not narcissistic
                        fool
                        but on the topic there is something to say

                        See my posts above.
                      8. Flooding
                        Flooding 12 November 2021 09: 57
                        0
                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        Educated people are aware that this is typical stupidity and do not use it in speech.

                        but you have already determined earlier that I do not belong to educated people and passed the exams for a bottle of cognac.
                        so don't ask the impossible from me

                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        My posts above

                        where you reviled all the employees of the National Guard for the fact that one of them hit a woman at the demonstration?

                      9. Olkhovsky
                        Olkhovsky 12 November 2021 10: 01
                        -4
                        but you have already determined before that I do not belong to educated people and passed the exams for a bottle of cognac

                        That is, you now confirm once again, now personally, how did you get your education?
                        where you reviled all the employees of the National Guard for the fact that one of them hit a woman at the demonstration?

                        You are sorry here, with your demogogy.
                      10. Flooding
                        Flooding 12 November 2021 10: 04
                        +2
                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        That is, you now confirm once again, now personally, how did you get your education?

                        do not cheat
                        I only confirmed that you decided so for yourself
                        it is more convenient for you to write to your opponent that he is stupid, uneducated and therefore does not understand you

                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        You are sorry here, with your demogogy.

                        do you give up your words?
                      11. Olkhovsky
                        Olkhovsky 12 November 2021 10: 08
                        -6
                        do not cheat
                        I only confirmed that you decided so for yourself
                        it is more convenient for you to write to your opponent that he is stupid, uneducated and therefore does not understand you

                        You are cheating here, doing demogogy, ignoring facts and inserting cartoons instead of facts.
                        In fact, you have not answered a single question, you have not cited more than a single fact in defense of your position. Quoting articles of the Criminal Code and other codes does not mean that you understand what it is about and how it all works in practice.
                        do you give up your words?
                        explain what the question is.
                      12. Flooding
                        Flooding 12 November 2021 10: 59
                        +3
                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        You cheat here, doing demogogy

                        DemAgogy you call incriminating you of dishonesty?
                        so be it.
                        I believe and insist that a decent person will not, because of the actions of a few and dozen, smear hundreds and thousands of black paint, indiscriminately.
                        and I am writing this out of my own moral and ethical considerations and beliefs.
                        Should I be interested in the opinion of a person whose actions I consider dishonest?

                        You just have to hide your unsightly words behind accusations of demagoguery on me.

                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        In fact, you have not answered a single question, you have not cited more than a single fact in defense of your position.

                        it is taught from an early age, from an early age - to behave according to conscience
                        honest and decent behavior does not need anyone's protection
                        it can be trampled with dirty boots, but it cannot be stained
                        but the dirt that you poured over all the employees of the Russian Guard indiscriminately needs to be justified
                        because you defend yourself and make excuses
                        and I blame you
                        Quote: Flood
                        it suddenly became interesting
                        but for example the soldiers of SOBR and OMON?
                        and order bearers and military officers?
                        Will you smear everyone with mud or through one?

                        Quote: Flood
                        you are the same berry with those commentators who are always happy to denigrate the Russian state and most often write from outside of it


                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        Quoting articles of the Criminal Code and other codes does not mean that you understand what it is about and how it all works in practice

                        explain how it works
                        if you understand, but I don't
                        I gave you the text of the paragraph of the Criminal Code, exempting from liability for failure to comply with a criminal order, in response to your question
                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        do you think they will break the oath and refuse to obey the order if they do?

                        from which it follows that you did not know about the measure of responsibility and criminal prosecution

                        now you puff out your cheeks: "you don't understand anything!"
                      13. Olkhovsky
                        Olkhovsky 12 November 2021 11: 06
                        -5
                        honest and decent behavior does not need anyone's protection
                        but the dirt that you poured over all the indiscriminately collaborators of the Russian Guard needs
                        that's why you are defending yourself
                        and I blame you

                        Are you having fun or doing nothing ** toil? Or do you have an infaltile personality type?
                        Who are you to accuse me of something? Who are you to protect someone? Are you defending everyone or only your beloved Rosguards?
                      14. Flooding
                        Flooding 12 November 2021 11: 12
                        +1
                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        Or do you have an infaltile personality type?

                        what is infantilism in this case?
                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        Who are you to accuse me of something?

                        Military Review reader who cannot stand dirt and debris in the comments

                        and my accusations in no way go beyond the rules adopted at VO
                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        Are you defending everyone or only your beloved Rosguards?

                        it would be foolish to become like you and ask a similar question in response: do you accuse everyone in a row, or just the hated Russian Guards.
                        I'd rather answer: I, by my personal conviction, defend justice.
                        as I understand it and when, in my opinion, it needs protection.

                        Consider that my hobby is related to the waste disposal of the forum.
                      15. Olkhovsky
                        Olkhovsky 12 November 2021 11: 30
                        -5
                        what is infantilism in this case?
                        with another statement means agree-have fun - toil *** here.

                        Military Review reader who cannot stand dirt and debris in the comments
                        Oh yeah. This status allows you to be hysterical to every barrel, blaming everyone left and right, with whom you disagree, without proof.
                        I, by my personal conviction, defend justice.
                        as I understand it and when, in my opinion, it needs protection.

                        And what is your personal conviction based on, what are you guided by, what is your criterion of justice? What kind of experience in judging fairness? Since when did you realize that someone needs your help and protection? At what point did you realize that you have the right to judge someone? How did you feel about it? What does your personal psychiatrist say when you deal with another case in which you defended someone? I can’t take your answer seriously, because this is really a clinic)))) you have an obvious "God complex". Think about it.
                        Consider that my hobby is related to the waste disposal of the forum.
                        at your leisure, while doing your hobby, think to go once again to a specialist - psychiatrist for a conversation and talk about your hobby.
                        I didn't want to offend you, or hurt you, but take this for friendly advice - visit your psychiatrist more often.
                        PS Your stubborn unwillingness to leave the dialogue unanswered is also a "bell" for a specialist. Tell him about that too.
                        PS2 no longer intends to respond to any of your next messages in this thread of dialogue hi
                      16. Flooding
                        Flooding 12 November 2021 11: 32
                        +2
                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        I didn't want to offend you, or hurt you, but take this for friendly advice - visit your psychiatrist more often.

                        I'm not offended in any way
                        I understand that this is nothing more than an attempt to joke

                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        your stubborn unwillingness to leave the dialogue unanswered, also a "bell" for a specialist

                        writes citizen Olkhovsky, who still has not left unanswered any of my comments lol

                        Quote: Olkhovsky
                        I no longer intend to reply to any of your next messages in this thread

                        you already inherited a lot

                        but you managed to puzzle me
                        what can you say about a person who asks questions in one comment and immediately writes that he does not intend to continue the correspondence?
          2. Avior
            Avior 12 November 2021 13: 48
            +1
            1993, Ostankino, 46 ​​corpses: ((
            Those who carried out the order were awarded, as you know.
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 12 November 2021 14: 05
              +1
              Quote: Avior
              1993, Ostankino, 46 ​​corpses: ((
              Those who carried out the order were awarded, as you know.

              army? the police?
              1. Avior
                Avior 12 November 2021 15: 12
                0
                Do you know who? Take an interest ....
                1. Flooding
                  Flooding 12 November 2021 15: 25
                  +1
                  Quote: Avior
                  Do you know who? Take an interest ....

                  I didn't just ask
                  but with some intent
                  but if you are not in the mood to enter into a discussion, then you should not spend money on words
                  1. Avior
                    Avior 12 November 2021 15: 58
                    0
                    You would be more direct, it was easier to discuss. :)
                    1. Flooding
                      Flooding 12 November 2021 16: 03
                      +3
                      Quote: Avior
                      You would be more direct, it was easier to discuss. :)


                      if Olkhovsky considers the entire Rosgvardia a firing squad for the fact that an employee hit some woman at a rally

                      then what can people like him say about the Russian Armed Forces, remembering Ostankino in 1993?
                      1. Avior
                        Avior 12 November 2021 16: 46
                        +2
                        And about the events near Ostankino in 1993 - this is not the Russian Armed Forces.
                      2. Flooding
                        Flooding 12 November 2021 17: 02
                        0
                        you're right.
                        confused with the shooting of the White House.
  4. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 11 November 2021 17: 50
    0
    the peak of the relevance of this weapon has passed The caliber is too small! It would be like this!


    Now more and more "special grenade launchers" are used from 40 mm and higher ... In Russia, these are 40-mm grenade launchers ... 43-mm and 50-mm hand grenade launchers ... In Israel, an "iron" door can be knocked out with a rifle "special grenade" ...
    1. Maki Avellevich
      Maki Avellevich 11 November 2021 21: 36
      0
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      Now more and more "special grenade launchers" are used from 40 mm and higher ... In Russia, these are 40-mm grenade launchers ... 43-mm and 50-mm hand grenade launchers ..

      recoilless hunting rifles.
    2. Konnick
      Konnick 12 November 2021 08: 49
      +1
      The caliber is too small! It would be like this!

      In every joke there is only a grain of a joke. Perhaps they will come to a canister or shrapnel shell to defeat drones.
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 12 November 2021 09: 52
        +1
        Quote: Konnick
        Perhaps they will come to a canister or shrapnel shell to defeat drones.

        Duc, already come!
        1. Konnick
          Konnick 12 November 2021 11: 03
          0
          Duc, already come!

          They also indulge in cartoons drinks
  5. Santa Fe
    Santa Fe 11 November 2021 17: 51
    -4
    inside the walls of the Capitol earlier this year, expecting attacks from the crowd. In other words, the American National Guards were quite ready to shoot their compatriots to kill, and indiscriminately.

    I wonder from what our FSO will shoot at the crowd. If Bulk's supporters decide to take the Kremlin by storm

    Hope our fighters have something better am
  6. vl903
    vl903 11 November 2021 18: 07
    0
    it seems to me from the couch, a shotgun in the army, from no source.
    in PMV - there were no PPs and machine guns
    in WWII - Thompson for a short time did not give the density of fire and the weight of the
    Vietnam - too, plus there are no full-fledged machines
    capitol - on the one hand, the crowd will go to stop and the shot will not fly far, the police situation ...
    now - to arm the hunter's drone, small drones will go
    1. Terran ghost
      Terran ghost 12 November 2021 16: 05
      +1
      capitol - on the one hand, stop the crowd

      As a weapon for police use, 12-gauge smoothbore guns are valuable in that they can use a huge range of non-lethal charges. Gas with tear gas, rubber bullets and buckshot, and even (a relatively recent innovation) - electroshock charges.
      shotgun in the army - from no source. in PMV - there were no PPs and machine guns

      Actually, this is exactly what happened. Used then (during the First World War) by the US Armed Forces, store-type manual rifles of the M1903 models produced by the Springfield Arsenal and the M1914 were not very suitable for combat in the cramped space of trenches. Plus, at that time, the US Armed Forces were doing badly with light machine guns. That is, they essentially did not exist, and to solve the problem, it was necessary to purchase from France modified Shosh machine guns chambered for .30-06. The latter was in itself not the most successful design, but the version for .30-06 was distinguished by completely chthonic problems with operational reliability.
      in WWII - Thompson for a short time did not give the density of fire and the weight of the

      Why did Thompson's PP suddenly not give the required density of fire at short distances? Actually, PP Thompson had three problems. The first is the .45АСР cartridge, which limited its effective range, the second is the mass of the weapon, and the third is the cost of its production. The second and third problems were resolved with the introduction of the M3 / M3A1 "Butter" PP type into service. The first was solved by using M1 and M2 carbines chambered for a special .30 caliber cartridge.
      Vietnam - too, plus there are no full-fledged machines

      In the sense of "there are no full-fledged machines"?
      1. vl903
        vl903 12 November 2021 16: 57
        +1
        Thompson relative to a shotgun will not give the same density on the short. the same ppsh seems to me better here. but of course it is necessary to compare specific typical situations - cleaning a trench. cleaning of tunnels. cleaning of huts, etc.
        the machine is M16 with auto-fire.
        rpd is a rather controversial machine gun. however, the Americans experimented with it by shortening the barrel. why? - there was a need, but there was nothing to cover.
        I wonder what 12k cartridges the National Guard had in the capitol (I almost wrote the Russian Guard))))
  7. Abakan
    Abakan 13 November 2021 09: 48
    +2
    my next "arsenal" will be: Springfield Armory SAINT AR-15 (cheap AR-15), Benelli M4 (official Marine shotgun), Sig Sauer M17 (320) (official Marine pistol), I already rated their AR-15 ( $ 900), M4 ($ 1800), M17 ($ 800). In the past I already bought a Walther HK MP5, but I sold it because I didn't have time to train with it, but now I really want to learn how to shoot a weapon, I have a friend who lives outside the city, and it is legal to shoot from there. weapons in the yard, he has more than 10 "guns", mostly hunting rifles, he even has a machine for reloading bullets

    It's very easy to buy a gun here, I was surprised at the beginning, I bought a Walther HK MP5 SD online, then it was sent to a "dealer", it was an ordinary person, I went to his house, he looked at my driver's license and gave me a gun, i could buy it from the store but it was easier on the internet and more options





    Walther HK MP5 SD, this is not a real MP5 (original was 9mm), replica cost me $ 500, small caliber .22LR, when I received it, fired in my basement (I was an idiot), it was loud, I had never fired before from his weapon
    1. vl903
      vl903 13 November 2021 20: 54
      0
      where is it here? which state?
      And why is there no M1Garand or M14 or M21 in the plans?
      and in addition to m16 - something like hk416?
  8. Mustached Kok
    Mustached Kok 13 November 2021 15: 40
    +2
    Shotguns have their own niche - a fighting tool. Shoot off the lock, make a hole in the flimsy wall. Knock out the enemy in the building. Well, it's corny - suppression fire.