Military Review

The Lubeck tragedy: when the vaccine really kills

180

Source: scientaevulgaris.com


Tuberculosis vs COVID-19


The world is now immersed in the coronavirus pandemic. Nevertheless, the rest, sometimes deadly diseases, have not gone anywhere from the human population.

One such disease is tuberculosis, which has claimed at least 100 million lives over the past 100 years. Researchers claim that a latent form of the disease occurs in a quarter of the world's population. And this is according to the most optimistic estimates.

WHO experts generally assume the presence of the causative agent of the infection of Koch's bacillus in every third inhabitant of the Earth. Tuberculosis is firmly established in the list of 10 most dangerous diseases - every year from 1,5 million people die from the consequences.

Compare this to the death rate from COVID-19.

Since the beginning of the pandemic, which is about to turn two, according to official figures, about 4,8 million people have died from the coronavirus. The mortality figures from tuberculosis and covid are, of course, difficult to call similar, but still allow us to see the differences in approaches to the two deadly diseases.

In the case of COVID-19, total lockdowns are introduced, and with tuberculosis, we only have an annual fluorographic examination. The thing is that mainly the population of developing and poor countries suffers from tuberculosis, but COVID-19 affects almost everyone indiscriminately.

And one more key difference - a fairly effective vaccine has long been invented for tuberculosis, and the constantly mutating SARS-CoV-2 virus regularly calls into question the effectiveness of existing vaccines.

However, everything was not always cloudless with the tuberculosis vaccine - in 1930, a tragedy struck in German Lübeck (Schleswig-Holstein), which could well become a real anthem of the modern anti-Axer community.

First of all, it should be noted from the very beginning that this material does not carry any ideological load, and even less does it propagate anti-vaccine sentiments in Russian society.

In the end, as the famous paradigm says:

"Infection with covid in a vaccinated person is a matter of (not) luck, but for an unvaccinated person it is a matter of time."

At the same time история science and medicine is an unforgiving thing, and it is not devoid of tragic failures that the modern public must be aware of.

Lubeck, 1930


Germany in the late 20s and early 30s was a pitiful sight. Chaos, total unemployment, hunger and monstrous inflation. Eyewitnesses recalled that they had to drag a bag of cash with them to the store for a loaf of bread. Unsanitary conditions have become a real scourge of the population - every year infectious diseases claimed the lives of hundreds of thousands of lives. Scientists and doctors tried their best to rectify the situation.

For example, Fritz Haber, the notorious author of the German chemical weaponsIn the early 20s, he oversaw the development of an insecticide against lice, literally taking over his country. Work went on at the Berlin Institute of Physical Chemistry and Electrochemistry. As a result, the famous "Cyclone - B" was obtained, which became a real curse of the XX century. The irony is that Haber himself was a Jew by nationality and in 1933 he was forced to leave the post of director of this institute in connection with the adoption of the "Law on Restrictions in the Professional Civil Service".

The doctors of the Lübeck General Hospital also acted with concern for national health when they planned to vaccinate against tuberculosis in December 1929. In this case, vaccinations were supposed to be administered to newborns, which gives a special color to the tragedy that broke out soon.

At that time, there was no effective cure for tuberculosis - the era of antibiotics was still far away. Therefore, German doctors decided to protect children from illness from birth. The most famous at that time French BCG (Bacille Calmette-Guerlin), which we now know by the Russian-language abbreviation BCG, was chosen as the vaccine. This is a typical live vaccine based on an attenuated bovine tubercle bacillus.

By the end of the 20s, it was already tested and recommended by the Pasteur Institute. BCG even managed to pre-test 120 newborns. However, in the course of clinical trials, only 24 children were from families in which there were patients with open form of tuberculosis. Therefore, it was possible to speak about efficiency with a certain degree of convention.

The exact dosage of BCG for children has not been fully identified - in different cases it could lead to different results. It is quite possible that this influenced to a certain extent the effectiveness of vaccination in Lübeck.

Vaccination was voluntary. From December 1929 to March 1930, 412 children were born in hospitals, of which 251 were vaccinated - the parents of the rest refused. As it turns out later, this decision turned out to be fateful for many. The BCG vaccine was administered to children ten days after birth.

The results were surprising at first, but then they caused a real shock.

After vaccination, 228 children were diagnosed with tuberculosis - this is more than 90%. Subsequently, within three months, 77 of them died. Moreover, the children began to die a few weeks after the introduction of the vaccine - in April 1930. The survivors who contracted tuberculosis fought the disease until 1993, and everyone recovered except for six children.

At the moment, there are many versions about the causes and results of the "Lubeck tragedy".

For example, different sources provide different data on the deaths - from 72 to 77 children. The most complete evidence is a report in German dating back to 1935 - Moegling A. Die "Epidemiologie" der Lübecker Säuglingstuberkulose. Arbeiten ad Reichsges-Amt. The author of the report, Doctor Mogling, claims that five of the children who died were without visible clinical signs of tuberculosis. It turned out after the autopsy.

There is also no consensus about the causes of the tragedy.

Data on an excessively high concentration of a weakened cow's bacillus Koch, which caused not the formation of immunity, but the development of a real disease, are presented. Initially, the different susceptibility of the child's body to tuberculosis caused such an ambiguous result: someone suffered well, and someone died.

According to the second version, there was a mistake made by the staff of the German laboratory that produced the vaccines. Different vials could have different concentrations of the attenuated pathogen, which caused different results. At the same time, all reflections on this matter are purely relative - it was impossible to analyze samples of a bacterial emulsion for oral administration in hot pursuit.

And finally, according to the third version, virulent strains of tuberculosis pathogens got into liquid vaccines due to improper storage. This fatal mistake could have happened due to the elementary unsanitary conditions that struck Germany in the 30s.

Unsanitary conditions, as it turned out, made their way into the microbiological laboratory of Lubeck.

Lab technicians did not autoclave the reusable glass vaccine vials long enough before reuse. And the fact that the laboratory premises were inhabited with Koch's stick was proved by the already mentioned Dr. Mogling.

The artificially created outbreak of tuberculosis among the newborns of Lubeck caused a huge scandal.

In the ensuing trial, three doctors and a nurse directly responsible for vaccinations were accused of negligence. In particular, they neglected the then mandatory procedure for testing vaccines on laboratory animals and did not monitor the health status of vaccinated babies. Doctors stopped the vaccine only after the first three children died.

Further, the eyes of law enforcement agencies turned to the laboratory where the deadly vaccine BCG was made.

The head of the institution, Georg Deike, was sentenced to two years for negligent murder and grievous bodily harm. It was logical to assume that the perpetrators of the tragedy were hospital staff and manufacturers, but the German authorities banned BCG altogether.

The use of the tuberculosis vaccine was returned to medical practice only after 1945.

Other European countries were also afraid of the tragedy in Lubeck - BCG appeared here in practice only in the mid-50s.

As the World Health Organization now informs,

"Complications after BCG vaccination are rare: the death rate from BCG is estimated at 0,19-1,56 per million vaccinated, and its victims are almost exclusively unintentionally immunized individuals with severe cellular immunity disorders."
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  1. Chekmarev
    Chekmarev 17 November 2021 05: 37
    .
    The more vaccinated, the more sick. Coincidence? I do not think!
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 17 November 2021 06: 05
      +15
      Quote: Chekmarev
      The more vaccinated, the more sick. Coincidence? I do not think!

      The fact that lazy and crooked idiots screwed up in Lubeck are not at all interesting to you?
      1. Chekmarev
        Chekmarev 17 November 2021 06: 15
        .
        All vaccinators must be separated and isolated so that they do not infect the people around them. Vaccinated people carry the corona and distribute it.
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 17 November 2021 06: 18
          +21
          Quote: Chekmarev
          All vaccinators must be separated and isolated so that they do not infect the people around them. Vaccinated people carry the corona and distribute it.

          It is a pity for the senile only in the Internet and can be determined.
          1. Civil
            Civil 17 November 2021 07: 53
            +20
            Tuberculosis vs COVID-19

            It's still worse.
            Up to 50% of children do not receive BCG, this is the result of antivaxing among young mothers, no one even tried to read mothers' forums in 2010-2020, and so "chipping" through the vaccine is from there. They completely refuse to vaccinate their children. From this outbreak of measles in Russia and Ukraine.
            And there is one "advanced" country where vaccination of children has been abandoned altogether, this is progressive Tajikistan, where the outbreak of Poliomyelitis is now raging.
            1. Doccor18
              Doccor18 17 November 2021 10: 09
              +7
              Quote: Civil
              Up to 50% of children do not receive BCG, this is the result of antivaxing among young mothers ...

              50% is, of course, a bit too much. Much less, actually. But the fact that there are more opponents of any vaccination, from year to year, is a dangerous trend.
              Quote: Civil
              There is one "advanced" country where vaccination of children has been abandoned altogether, this is progressive Tajikistan, where the outbreak of Poliomyelitis is now raging.

              In Tajikistan, they did not completely abandon the vaccination calendar. They just arrogantly decided that if there is no illness, then it will never be there, and ... they decided to save a little on this matter. And she was brought from India ... As a result, up to three thousand children with poliomyelitis, more than two dozen - with a fatal outcome. But the vaccine was delivered, the situation was corrected.
              But Ukraine is sad. There are really strong anti-vaccination moods. And the epidemics were not long in coming. Measles diagnostics is already in tens of thousands ...
              1. Civil
                Civil 17 November 2021 10: 15
                -2
                Quote: Doccor18
                But Ukraine is sad. There are really strong anti-vaccination moods. And the epidemics were not long in coming. Measles diagnostics is already in tens of thousands ...

                So from there this trouble and went, I'm talking about antivaxing.
                1. Doccor18
                  Doccor18 17 November 2021 10: 28
                  +5
                  Quote: Civil
                  So from there this trouble and went, I'm talking about antivaxing.

                  The trouble, in my opinion, comes from the lack of information (correct, professional) and the lack of correct (on a scientific basis) propaganda in all educational institutions and in the media. A person either does not understand the real significance of vaccination, or he was brainwashed by all sorts of pseudo-profes of the Internet, or there is simply no information (as, for example, with the coronavirus). It is extremely rare to hear the opinions of truly luminaries, these lectures are rare and, for the most part, for a narrow professional circle ...
                  1. Astra wild2
                    Astra wild2 17 November 2021 16: 25
                    0
                    "does not understand" and does not want to understand
              2. Suhow
                Suhow 22 November 2021 22: 27
                0
                Good evening. Antiprivial moods are of course present, as elsewhere, but there are also a lot of vaccinations, I personally have not heard 2 pieces about measles, but the problem with the lack of medical personnel is yes. As well as other specialists in other areas. Poland is nearby. ..without visibility, fish, where the person is deeper, where the better.
                1. Doccor18
                  Doccor18 23 November 2021 07: 13
                  +1
                  Quote: Suhow
                  I haven't heard about measles ...

                  In total, from 2017 to 2019, about 130 thousand people fell ill.
        2. vladcub
          vladcub 17 November 2021 07: 58
          +8
          Chikmarev, we live in the 21st century, and what are you in?
          1. Fitter65
            Fitter65 17 November 2021 11: 59
            +2
            Quote: vladcub
            Chikmarev, we live in the 21st century, and what are you in?
            Thank God, man has just learned to divide the seasons by months, and you are asking about what age of the ego, you will ask him about the shape of the Earth ... hi laughing good drinks
            1. vladcub
              vladcub 17 November 2021 13: 52
              +4
              Blabbed out, I'll ask about it in a year. If I don’t forget. Sclerosis "panimash, you" overcomes
              On the topic of sclerosis.
              - Mom, what is sclerosis?
              -Son, what did you ask?
              -I AM?! When?
              1. parathyron
                parathyron 24 November 2021 09: 17
                0
                Not relevant! Now we need to say "covid", not sclerosis
        3. EvilLion
          EvilLion 17 November 2021 08: 08
          -2
          This unvaccinated should be put under arrest. They've already pulled it down.
          1. Azim77
            Azim77 17 November 2021 09: 13
            +12
            I will offer my opinion, not a doctor at all. In this connection, I do not pretend to be absolutely loyal.
            Vaccination is needed, but:
            1. Vaccination develops appropriate immunity, which for some time is a barrier to the virus. Gradually, antibodies run out, part of the virus dies, part is utilized by the body. The resulting waste goes through the "sewer" of the person and here the permeability is important. And if it is insufficient, there will always be a risk of blockage with subsequent complications (strokes, heart attacks, pulmonary failure, kidneys, etc., etc.).
            2. Antibodies are produced both naturally (!!) and through vaccination.
            3. Considering the above points, it is necessary to vaccinate only those (!!!) who do not have antibodies (no difference as acquired) and who have no risk of complications.

            It is the strategy of universal vaccination, without a diagnosis of antibodies and the state of the body, in order to overcome the pandemic in mass and speed, even with an acceptable relatively low level of complications (10-15%), that is an obstacle to its implementation. For example, a person faced a virus (he is everywhere now), the body overcame it itself and then get it, get another portion and give the body a new one to produce antibodies. We'll repeat it after a while. And quite healthy and strong people join those who have a weak body and an initially high risk of complications. And on the basis of their statistics and "impressions" those who really need vaccination refuse to do it. Thus, the whole meaning of the collective struggle is lost.
            1. Doccor18
              Doccor18 17 November 2021 10: 41
              +3
              Quote: Azim77
              It is the strategy of universal vaccination, without a diagnosis of antibodies and the state of the body, in order to overcome the pandemic in mass ... and is an obstacle to implement it.

              With antibody titers, not everything is as simple and unambiguous as it seems at first glance ...
              And how many times will a person, with the current level of medicine, donate blood for antibodies? Every week, month?
              And the equivalent of universal vaccination can only be universal isolation, nothing else in the world has yet been invented. The only question is how and in what time frame to carry out this ...
            2. vladcub
              vladcub 17 November 2021 13: 58
              +1
              Azim, there is some rational grain in this.
              Byada, that we still do not know this byaka well and * hell, how many more and from above and below.
            3. mikstepanenko
              mikstepanenko 18 November 2021 18: 05
              +1
              A vaccine is a drug that contains the antigens of the pathogen. Ideally, these are antigens and nothing more. It does not matter whether these antigens are in the composition of the pathogen or separately from it, the reaction of the body will be the same. Training of the immune system and the production of antibodies (gamma globudins, immunoglobulins). Immediately after infection, there are many antibodies, gradually their number decreases and after six months reaches a constant level. But they stay for many years or even for life. And when a pathogen enters the body (the memory of the immune system is preserved and no new training is required), antibodies to it begin to be produced en masse. Illustration - test of mantoux. Complete lack of reaction - no immunity. Weak reaction - there is immunity, there is no pathogen, there are few antibodies. Strong reaction - there is both immunity and pathogen, for this reason, increased production of specific antibodies. That is, according to the mind, before vaccination, it is necessary to check the presence and level of antibodies. And according to the results, look for both those who have them (and who do not need vaccination), and people with high levels of antibodies. These are either recently ill or in the acute stage of the disease. For them, an additional PCR test, which determines the presence of the virus, is screened out with an acute stage.
          2. Alexander Trebuntsev
            Alexander Trebuntsev 17 November 2021 19: 18
            -5
            These need to be legally made to pay for treatment. I was ill with covid in the hospital - to bill him for the treatment. Will not pay - into debtors with corresponding problems, as required by law. The price there will be not at all small: the very maintenance in a hospital bed, not counting drugs, can cost more than a hundred thousand rubles.
            1. Hantengri
              Hantengri 17 November 2021 21: 50
              +6
              Quote: Alexander Trebuntsev
              These need to be legally made to pay for treatment. I was ill with covid in the hospital - to bill him for the treatment.

              And for those who, after vaccination, managed to jump to hospitalization with 85% of lung damage, in accordance with your logic, it would be correct to refuse hospitalization! For, not only did the state spend money on vaccinating this miserable, so he, an ungrateful trick, also managed to get sick in a serious form, trampling the foundations of propaganda and spoiling the statistics! And if this bastard even dies, then recover from his family, as from the family of a hidden antivaxer, the cost of the introduced vaccine (the horse didn’t have the fodder!), As well as for the damage deliberately inflicted on the cause of saving Mankind from Infection (here - how many the court will count)! wassat
            2. Suhow
              Suhow 22 November 2021 22: 40
              +1
              Even vaccinated people get sick here, and not always in a mild form. So the question about the bills is somewhat in my opinion not correct, but I will say this about the means of protection, and the mask is not a panacea here. (Ukraine). Just as unvaccinated people do not get sick. I will not call myself an anti-vaccine, but I was vaccinated without much joy .... an indirect necessity.
          3. Gato
            Gato 18 November 2021 17: 34
            +7
            This unvaccinated should be put under arrest. They've already pulled it down.

            Yes, shoot immediately at the place of residence. And lop-eared and redheads are incredibly annoying. am
        4. Astra wild2
          Astra wild2 17 November 2021 09: 44
          +2
          Colleague Chekmarev, then you will disappear: 98% of health workers, 70% in trade, 96 (?)% Of teachers have already been vaccinated. In public transport, perhaps about 60%. I have no numbers and can only guess.
          If you isolate people of all these specialties, what will happen?
        5. Flank
          Flank 17 November 2021 10: 09
          -5
          You're lying. The vaccinated person is several times less contagious, his antibodies in the nasal mucosa immediately begin to fight the virus, and in your country it spreads exponentially.
          1. Suhow
            Suhow 22 November 2021 22: 43
            0
            Then put one vaccinated next to three anti-axers, let them share antibodies.)))
    2. Jacket in stock
      Jacket in stock 17 November 2021 06: 11
      +10
      Quote: Chekmarev
      The more vaccinated, the more sick. Coincidence? I do not think!

      The more verified, the more identified.
      And in fact, no one knows how many cases.
      But I personally know at least three patients who have not been included in any statistics.
      1. Lech from Android.
        Lech from Android. 17 November 2021 06: 26
        +12
        The more composure and restraint when analyzing the facts, the more accurate the result ... you cannot rush either at anti-axers or waxers without long-term monitoring of their health.
        There is always margin of error and probability of error.
        Among anti-axers there may be people with stable immunity, and on the contrary, those vaccinated may have unknown side effects ... in general, you need to approach this carefully and without personal ambitions and preferences. ... what
        1. Viktor Sergeev
          Viktor Sergeev 17 November 2021 08: 20
          -6
          Resistant immunity to the virus can only be developed in two ways: have been ill or vaccinated. Antivaxers call for everyone to get sick. As a person who received this pleasure in a mild form (15% defeat) and got vaccinated after half a year, I will say: God forbid getting this, and in my family, two died from covid. Antivaxers, if they get sick, should be tried for deliberately causing harm to the health of people around them, and immediately upon recovery, sent to a colony for a couple of years, and upon leaving there, they should bill for treatment.
          1. Flank
            Flank 17 November 2021 10: 43
            +1
            Please tell us if you managed to fully recover and what are the consequences of the covid.
            1. Viktor Sergeev
              Viktor Sergeev 17 November 2021 21: 21
              +4
              15% small change. There seem to be no consequences, but the disease itself is a terrible horror, so I have never been sausage in my life, especially the first days 7. But this is stroking in comparison with the middle and even more severe stage. Better vaccination.
              1. Suhow
                Suhow 22 November 2021 22: 51
                +2
                Almost a year ago I had a mild illness 19 more than 37,4 were not, the rest of the family had to go for medicines and food, there was no other way out. But without a mask and treatment of at least my hands I did not leave the house.
                old ones are leaking ... but so far bearable.
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 17 November 2021 14: 00
        +1
        And I can name a couple
      3. Alexander X
        Alexander X 17 November 2021 15: 55
        +5
        My daughter was forced to donate blood for covid antibodies before leaving on a business trip the day before yesterday. Well, the rules are now. Found these antibodies! In the required quantity. But when she was ill, she was diagnosed with pneumonia. Well, they were treated accordingly, for pneumonia. Thank God she survived. I was sick with pneumonia 2 years ago, and still have antibodies. And why should she now be vaccinated if there are already antibodies?
        I am in favor of vaccinations, but with a reasonable approach to this matter.
        1. Viktor Sergeev
          Viktor Sergeev 17 November 2021 21: 24
          +1
          I explain it in a popular way: antibodies are produced for a certain type of disease, with pneumonia it is impossible to get antibodies to covid. It’s just that your daughter was ill with covid without noticing it. Vaccination is needed to spur immunity, increase the amount of antibodies, it's like a sportsman: do not train for a year and you are already blown away. Personally, after covid, after 5 months the level of antibodies became about 4, that is, they practically disappeared.
          1. Hantengri
            Hantengri 17 November 2021 22: 43
            +5
            Quote: Victor Sergeev
            Vaccination is needed to spur immunity, increase the amount of antibodies, it's like a sportsman: do not train for a year and you are already blown away.

            Shit! Especially if you were preparing for a chess tournament at sea level, and you have to hand over rock climbing at 5000 above sea level. What I mean is that any vaccine that exists today is based on the original (alpha) strain, which, with the current delta, two are already almost big differences. And yet, thank God that it is still "almost"! But another six months or a year will pass, and if the vaccines are not modernized, then those vaccinated by them will become like chess players at climbing competitions.
            1. Viktor Sergeev
              Viktor Sergeev 18 November 2021 08: 36
              -2
              Well, you bent it. Any modern vaccination is based on obtaining antibodies not for a specific virus, but for a thorn protein, which is the same for ALL strains of viruses, including delta. Everything changes, but the thorn is still the same, since changing it means losing the ability to penetrate the cell.
              If, according to your examples, something like this: the enemy has a red baseball cap and no matter how much he changes his boots, pants and jacket, they recognize him by the baseball cap, but he cannot take it off, the bald head will freeze.
              As for the modernization of the vaccine, everything is simple: a strain with a different composition of the thorn will appear, a new vaccine will appear, it's like with the flu. There is only one question: the speed of vaccination.
              1. Hantengri
                Hantengri 18 November 2021 10: 28
                +1
                Quote: Victor Sergeev
                Well, you bent it. Any modern vaccination is based on obtaining antibodies not for a specific virus, but for a thorn protein,

                Not all, but only adenovectorial ones.
                Quote: Victor Sergeev
                Everything changes, but the thorn is still the same, since changing it means losing the ability to penetrate the cell.

                It depends on how to change it. After all, a spike protein is not a "standard", "factory" key to the cell, but rather a master key that does not fit perfectly, but does. And if, in the course of the next mutation, its configuration changes towards more conformity to the lock, then the new strain will become easier and faster to penetrate into the cell, i.e. will become more infectious, which is what the delta shows us. Further, if we use your analogy (
                Quote: Victor Sergeev
                the enemy has a red baseball cap and no matter how much he changes his boots, pants and jacket, they recognize him by the baseball cap, but he cannot take it off, the bald head will freeze.
                ) The following happens: If an operative with a new vector orientation: "The main sign of a criminal is a red baseball cap" meets Alpha, wearing a red baseball cap, without hesitation he catches him. And what should he do with Delta, in a red baseball cap, with a yellow visor? Here, without hesitation, it will not work (like the hat is red, as in the orientation, but this yellow visor ... He, isn't he?). During the time of deliberation, Delta may well have time to sneak into the gateway, and look for him later! What if, six months later, Xi appears in a red baseball cap with a yellow visor and three blue stripes? Is it pure red in the orientation? What to do in this case? Right! Go to the police station and increase your vigilance, pricked with a new old orientation, where a pure red cap is indicated! wassat
      4. ANB
        ANB 18 November 2021 00: 41
        +3
        ... But I personally know at least three patients who have not been included in any statistics.

        Add 4 more.
        I was vaccinated (first and took to bed), my wife did not have time. The children were all ill, including 5 months old.
        On the day off hotline, the ambulance was advised to call a doctor at home. They spat, bought appliances and got sick at home. It's good that everything is without complications. The private pediatrician was in touch. Naturally, they were not included in the statistics.
      5. mikstepanenko
        mikstepanenko 18 November 2021 18: 10
        +2
        Approximately up to 80% are asymptomatic or mildly ill and are not covered by the accounting.
    3. Viktor Sergeev
      Viktor Sergeev 17 November 2021 08: 16
      -6
      You're delusional, but that's okay for anti-axers. The virus mutates, becomes more aggressive, more infectious, that's the whole reason for the increase in cases. Previously, young people almost did not get sick or in a latent form, now they are very often. The number of cases is revealed by tests, more tests, more identified, now testing is carried out more often than a year ago. Here anti-makers are to blame, in fact, they often get sick and die.
      1. Illanatol
        Illanatol 17 November 2021 09: 29
        +9
        You're delusional, but that's okay for anti-axers. The virus mutates, becomes more aggressive, more infectious, that's the whole reason for the increase in cases.


        Are the vaccinated sick?
        Ostensibly yes.
        Are they mildly ill?
        Yes.
        A patient in a mild form does not feel discomfort, therefore he can and wants to visit public places, infecting others. Moreover, it has an official carte blanche with a QR code. Right?
        A person who has not been vaccinated will become seriously ill. But when you have a strong fever and snot, you don’t want to go anywhere, you stay at home and don’t infect anyone.

        The virus mutates, including under the influence of the vaccine. Artificially induced immunity limits its reproduction in the body, becoming a factor of directed selection, selection.
        So new strains appear, more dangerous.

        I am not an anti-Vaxer, but I try to be objective. Objectively, vaccination in the midst of an epidemic is a double-edged sword.
        To overcome the coronavirus, we need not collective immunity (even 100%), but the complete removal of the virus from our population. The methods used to combat it cannot achieve this, so the "crown" will be with us for a very long time.
        1. Avior
          Avior 17 November 2021 10: 48
          0
          I am not an anti-Vaxer

          Excuse me, but what kind of vaccine were you personally vaccinated with?
          1. Illanatol
            Illanatol 17 November 2021 14: 03
            +6
            Companion. He recently underwent revaccination with the same companion (not "light", with the usual, two injections. "Light" is absent in our city).
            Vaccination was easy, without the slightest consequences.
            However ... I think that before vaccination, a citizen should undergo a comprehensive medical examination (given the insufficient testing of the vaccine).
            And so - a couple of minutes of communication with the therapist (temperature, pressure, a couple of questions). Not seriously. It takes longer to fill out the papers.
            1. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 17 November 2021 16: 34
              0
              I'm Light. Some have set themselves a "vector" and set themselves: no side effects.
              1. Suhow
                Suhow 22 November 2021 23: 06
                0
                Ukraine; similar fayzer and koronovax, koronovax leaks easier.
                1. Astra wild2
                  Astra wild2 23 November 2021 08: 58
                  0
                  Dr. Myasnikov actually responds positively to Faizer, but most of our people and "vaccinators" (and I) have a negative attitude to Faizer-: does the impact on the DNA of FIG know how it will respond in the future? Here, on the classical platform, even that raises concerns, but to influence the DNA?
            2. Babalaykin
              Babalaykin 18 November 2021 17: 51
              0
              the cost of the vaccine is conditionally 2 thousand. rubles, the cost of a comprehensive examination, analyzes, etc. will cost much more, resources for such an event are stupidly not enough, it's not about money, even but about physical doctors, tests, etc. the "capital vaccination" procedure itself will be delayed. In fact, even the current express version does not fit into any gate ...
              1. Illanatol
                Illanatol 19 November 2021 08: 54
                +2
                resources for such an event are stupidly not enough, it's not about money, even but about physical doctors, tests, etc. the "capital vaccination" procedure itself will be delayed.


                Thanks to gentlemen reformers, that medicine was "optimized" and doctors were laid off.
                Before the epidemic, they were really not enough, the queue for an appointment is a common thing.
                Of course, if resources and finances are more expensive than the lives of people who die from side effects, complications, there are no questions.
                First, we will save resources on medical examinations, then we will spend on treatment.
                Very reasonable.
                The vaccination procedure should have been carried out more rationally, combining it with strict quarantine of the foci of the spread of the virus.
                Such centers are our large cities, "hubs", first of all - the capitals (Moscow and St. Petersburg), then - the regional centers.
                It is from there that the virus spreads throughout the country. Well, the maximum number of infected is also there.
                And, I repeat, there is no tourism, restriction of movement, within the limits of possible, even within the country from these centers.
                It was necessary not to smear our "military resources" (vaccine) with a thin layer throughout the country, not to chase after the "average temperature in the hospital", but to achieve the maximum possible percentage of vaccinations in these settlements.
        2. Flank
          Flank 17 November 2021 10: 50
          -7
          In a vaccinated patient, however, the concentration of the virus is several times lower, but antivaxers in the first days after infection, until they feel it, infect more strongly. You are an anti-Vaxer in disguise and are not trying to be objective. Otherwise, they would understand that only vaccination can defeat the virus.
          1. Illanatol
            Illanatol 17 November 2021 14: 11
            +5
            Otherwise, they would understand that only vaccination can defeat the virus.


            Well, how do we win?
            So far, there is no inverse correlation between the number of vaccinated and the number of new infections. And the mortality rate is growing.
            I myself would like it to be different. But facts are stubborn things.
            The most effective time-tested measure is strict quarantine.
            For everyone, without exception for those who are "more equal".
            1. Flank
              Flank 17 November 2021 14: 24
              -1
              Quote: Illanatol
              So far, there is no inverse correlation between the number of vaccinated and the number of new infections.

              There is a correlation. We have more than 2000 employees at our enterprise and the incidence of covid disease among unvaccinated people is 4 times higher.
              The mortality rate is increasing among the unvaccinated. Among those vaccinated, it is almost absent, this percentage of mortality.
              Quarantine is impossible, you understand why. Therefore, only to inject.
              1. Hantengri
                Hantengri 17 November 2021 23: 12
                +4
                Quote: Flanke
                There is a correlation. We have more than 2000 employees at our enterprise and the incidence of covid disease among unvaccinated people is 4 times higher.
                The mortality rate is increasing among the unvaccinated. Among those vaccinated, it is almost absent, this percentage of mortality.

                Can I be specific? What is this "enterprise"? Who ran the stat. research? And finally, the numbers of this statistic, it would be nice ... laughing

                PS Propagadists, damn it! am It was correctly said in Ph.D. "Big jackpot": "Boris, just don't hire idiots for this business!"
                1. Flank
                  Flank 18 November 2021 13: 13
                  -1
                  What kind of enterprise is a secret, but not a state one. The research was carried out by someone on behalf of the director. Most likely the head physician of the clinic. The numbers there were 1,7% went to sick leave with covid vaccinated, and 10% were not vaccinated. At the same time, more than 80% have already taken root. And the severity of the disease in the vaccinated is less.

                  Actually, this does not contradict common sense. On the contrary, it is strange to think that vaccination does not play a role.
                  1. Hantengri
                    Hantengri 18 November 2021 15: 12
                    +2
                    Quote: Flanke
                    What kind of enterprise is a secret, but not a state one. The research was carried out by someone on behalf of the director. Most likely the head physician of the clinic. The numbers there were 1,7% went to sick leave with covid vaccinated, and 10% were not vaccinated. At the same time, more than 80% have already taken root. And the severity of the disease in the vaccinated is less.

                    Taking into account the fact that in all in Russia 6,6% of the population fell ill in two years, then during the same time, in your office, more than 5-7% of employees could not "go on sick leave with covid". Those. if there are 100 employees, then no more than 5-7 people fell ill (of which 0,5-0,7 people were unvaccinated and 0,17 people were vaccinated. laughing). There can be no question of any statistics here! If 1000, then 50-70 people are sick. At least something can be analyzed, although there is still no representativeness.
                    This I mean that lying is not good. After all, if you add up all the seriously ill and deceased unvaccinated relatives, friends, colleagues, acquaintances about whom vaccination advocates talk about in social networks and on the forums and add to them all who died in terrible cramps, fully vaccinated, about which anti-axers talk, then, probably, it turns out that the entire population of Russia, not only has been ill three times, so, in addition, exactly two times has already died out with the whole composition. laughing What, such 6,6%, when everyone strives to tell about at least three people who have experienced pain from their inner circle and ten from distant ones ?! laughing
                    1. Flank
                      Flank 18 November 2021 17: 31
                      -3
                      In this case, according to the logic of anti-axers, died from vaccination, and yes, in terrible cramps, significantly more died than, according to statistics, died in general. Recently in real life one claimed that two relatives from the vaccination of that ... The thrombus came off.

                      I think that such figures are due to the fact that 80% were not immediately grafted. But they still reflect the trend. The vaccinated get sick less and the main thing is that they have no complications.
              2. Illanatol
                Illanatol 19 November 2021 09: 02
                +2
                There is a correlation.


                A cow can drown in a river, where it is, on average, knee-deep.
                Alas, if you look at the situation as a whole, it is not encouraging.
                As the number of vaccinated people grows, and the number of unvaccinated people decreases, then the number of newly infected should nevertheless begin to decline. Moreover, many unvaccinated people already have immunity.
                And even according to official statistics, there is no positive trend.

                Quarantine is impossible


                It was possible to do the quarantine, although the moment has really been missed.
            2. Viktor Sergeev
              Viktor Sergeev 18 November 2021 08: 48
              0
              There are 140 million people in Russia, 40 million have been vaccinated, another 100 million are potential recipients of the virus, and the latter is becoming more aggressive, it is more easily transmitted from carrier to carrier, and therefore there is no effect of the vaccine on the number of cases and mortality. Until the main source of transmission is cut down: a potential carrier, the virus will continue to walk, including for the second and third time.
              1. Illanatol
                Illanatol 19 November 2021 09: 11
                +2
                There are 140 million people in Russia, 40 million have been vaccinated, another 100 million potential recipients of the virus, and the latter is becoming more and more aggressive,


                Where does this data come from?
                And what happened to those who had been ill in a mild form and received natural immunity?
                There are perhaps even more of them than those vaccinated.
                Many people live in the "outback", are not very mobile, and it is difficult for the virus to reach them.

                Why is the virus becoming more aggressive?
                Maybe we continue to import new strains of those for whom warming their belly in the sun means more than the life of fellow citizens, "rogue"?
                Or does the vaccine contribute to the improvement, the selection of the virus?
                Or maybe there is someone who is purposefully working on the virus, making it more effective?
                And where is the guarantee that the available vaccines actually protect against new strains?
                Who proved it and where?
        3. vladcub
          vladcub 17 November 2021 14: 18
          +2
          * complete removal of the virus "alas, it will not go away. What kind of byaka comes to people does not go away.
          Although, Lukyanenko, the author of "Night Watch" says:
          - All viruses despise Covid-19: a weakling. Seeks to kill a person.
          It may end up that some kind of virus will start helping people in the fight against Covid-19. It destroys people, which means it reduces the tf "food supply"
          1. Illanatol
            Illanatol 19 November 2021 09: 14
            0
            * complete removal of the virus "alas, it will not go away. What kind of byaka comes to people does not go away.


            Really?
            Have you often met people with plague or smallpox?
            It is possible to remove the virus, but it requires high costs, political will, civic responsibility and a different level of mutual trust between the authorities and the people.
            1. vladcub
              vladcub 19 November 2021 14: 01
              +1
              And plague and smallpox, cholera and typhus. Occur periodically.
              The last outbreak of smallpox, in the Soviet Union, was in the early 70s, but it was quickly suppressed. Cholera in the Caucasus was also in the 70s.
              They thought polyamilitis no longer, but as soon as they stopped vaccinating and it began to manifest itself
              1. Illanatol
                Illanatol 19 November 2021 14: 16
                +1
                The last outbreak of smallpox, in the Soviet Union, was in the early 70s, but it was quickly suppressed.


                This is when it was brought from outside? And they put Moscow on quarantine?
                An example in the topic. This is how it was necessary to act initially.
                Although under the current regime ... "no, son, this is fantastic!" angry
                1. vladcub
                  vladcub 19 November 2021 14: 46
                  0
                  "Dad, thanks", but thank God we don't have smallpox now. And with Covid-19, what do you propose, a general quarantine and compulsory vaccination.
                  Let's, as a punishment for enemas: "half a bucket of skia on patifon needles" (c)
        4. Viktor Sergeev
          Viktor Sergeev 17 November 2021 21: 43
          -2
          you are not objective. Speak in a mild form does not feel any discomfort? Yeah, tell me, who had been ill in a mild form, no discomfort, well, except that a terrible headache, loss of smell, temperature under 30, sweating, weakness, etc. and all this for a week, then it is easier for another week, and then the recovery of an easy defeat and a couple of months the inability to walk and run quickly.
          Do not confuse the mild form and the asymptomatic, judging by the antibody tests, half a year before the mild one, I was asymptomatic.
          Vaccinated people can get seriously ill or even die, but less often, much.
          Immunity is immunity. Antibodies, for your information, do not fight the virus themselves, they only recognize it and give a command to the killer cells to destroy the virus. How can a scout cause a virus to mutate?
          The virus mutation is not controllable, by the way, covid mutates ten times slower than the flu, mutations are spontaneous and are not affected by the presence of antibodies, just more viable mutations begin to spread, and weak ones disappear. The viability of mutations is determined by the ability to change its structure so that the antibodies do not recognize the virus and it does not matter how the antibodies are formed.
          Vaccines (modern, except for covivac) are aimed at the formation of antibodies that determine the virus by the spike protein, the basis of the virus, which part of it is very difficult to replace. While the virus is mutating, just under the influence of natural immunity. The incidence of vaccinated people is very low, the effect on mutations is microscopic, it is the anti-axers who are to blame for the mutations and the development of the disease.
          To eradicate the disease, it is not necessary to completely remove the virus from the population, but to acquire immunity and resistance from a person, which will firstly lead to a weakening of the virus (as it happened with influenza, syphilis and many previously terrible diseases), its adaptability to the carrier, it should become less dangerous , go into the category of influenza or acute respiratory infections. Now the crown will always be with us, the question is to what extent and exactly vaccination will help get rid of massive diseases of hundreds of thousands - millions per year, and transfer to seasonal ones with vaccination once a year or more.
          An example of the ability to practically overcome the disease with vaccinations is halera, measles.
          1. ANB
            ANB 18 November 2021 00: 48
            +1
            ... syphilis

            There is no vaccine against syphilis. As well as from gonorrhea. But since both diseases are bacterial, they are treated with antibiotics. The tripper is easier, the syphilis is more difficult.
            1. Viktor Sergeev
              Viktor Sergeev 18 November 2021 08: 28
              0
              I did not talk about the vaccination against syphilis, but only about the fact that this disease at first was just super lethal, but over time it got weakened enough, since it is not profitable to kill your carrier quickly, you die yourself, that is, the most aggressive strains have died out, more weak, the same with the flu, which in comparison with the "Spanish flu" is just white and fluffy.
              1. ANB
                ANB 18 November 2021 14: 53
                +2
                ... but weakened enough over time,

                I didn’t weaken. They just learned to heal.
                1. Viktor Sergeev
                  Viktor Sergeev 19 November 2021 22: 21
                  0
                  You're wrong, syphilis was much more deadly in the Middle Ages. Previously, syphilis destroyed a person in a month, now it develops over the years, and this is solability. But the treatment is more and more complicated, many antibiotics no longer work.
                  1. ANB
                    ANB 20 November 2021 00: 31
                    +1
                    ... Previously, syphilis destroyed a person in a month, now it develops over the years,

                    Well, I know about the course of syphilis in the last 100 years (from textbooks).
                    I tried to look at the topic on the internet. Sources are contradictory. They die right away, but Cesare Borgia lived for several years. Then they also treated with mercury, which did not prolong life in any way. And the general unsanitary conditions, when it was possible to bend in the first phase. In any case, the variant of the transient illness lasted 10 20 years after Columbus. By the way, the Indians tolerated syphilis in a completely different way.
          2. Illanatol
            Illanatol 19 November 2021 09: 27
            +1
            How can a scout cause a virus to mutate?


            Natural mutations occur spontaneously, by chance. However, antibodies are a selection factor that promotes the selective "survival" of those mutant forms to which antibodies either do not bind or bind poorly.
            The stronger the selection factor, the faster the mutant forms of the virus spread, due to the greater chances of their preservation.
            Of course, all this also depends on the scale of the process. This is why "shock" vaccination in the midst of an epidemic backfires.

            by the way, covid mutates ten times slower than the flu


            Oh really? And how many strains of covid have emerged in the last 2 years?
            I'm not sure if the flu got more over the same period.
            However, it is possible that this is the merit of human hands, masters of their craft.
          3. Illanatol
            Illanatol 19 November 2021 14: 18
            +1
            Do not confuse the mild form and the asymptomatic, judging by the antibody tests, half a year before the mild one, I was asymptomatic.


            There is no clear line. And all this is purely individual (characteristics of the organism, age, living conditions and many other "variables"). With you it is like this, with others it is different.
    4. ja-ja-vw
      ja-ja-vw 17 November 2021 13: 13
      -1
      Quote: Chekmarev
      The more vaccinated, the more sick. Coincidence? I do not think!

      self-critical of course. "don't think" it can be seen
      read and analyze all sorts of mathematical models like

      with and without vaccination, with or without restriction
      Quote: Chekmarev
      Vaccinated people carry the corona and distribute it.

      belay
      Quote: Chekmarev
      All vaccinators must be separated and isolated so that they do not infect the people around them.

      here you are all anti-vax, all over the world and will soon be driven to the reservation
      San Marino became the first state in Europe to defeat the coronavirus and lift restrictions, thanks to the inclusion of the Sputnik V vaccine in the national immunization portfolio. More than 70% of the country's adult population was vaccinated with a Russian drug.


      Current Coronavirus Statistics as of 17.11.2021/XNUMX/XNUMX (San Marino)
      Population 34 thousand.
      Total infections 5654 16,6%
      Fatalities 92 1,6%
      Recovered 5460 96,6%
      Now 102 1,8% are sick
      Tests done 86649
      Now in the Republic of San Marino there are no hospitalized coronavirus patients at all.

      / Minister of Health of San Marino Roberto Ciawatta.
    5. Two
      Two 17 November 2021 14: 02
      0
      Can you confirm with statistics !?
    6. zenion
      zenion 17 November 2021 16: 58
      +2
      Chekmarev. An even bigger trick is that the vaccinated can infect the unvaccinated, and the unvaccinated cannot infect the vaccinated. This was expressed by an American microbiologist and the United States canceled the third vaccination. The vaccinated person already has strains of Coronovirus in the body, while the unvaccinated do not have strains, but in case of illness, the body itself produces a vaccine that is against all strains that may be. But the rulers decided to start an unnatural selection. There are those who die, all die. There is not a word about the death of the vaccinated - it is taboo!
      1. Viktor Sergeev
        Viktor Sergeev 17 November 2021 21: 48
        +1
        They say about the death of the vaccinated and there is no taboo, the Hungarians even gave a study. We are all mortal, the vaccine only allows the body to start fighting the virus 5-7 days earlier than it is done if the person is not vaccinated and has not had a previous illness. If you have a weakened immune system and a lot of viruses have entered your body, and you are vaccinated, you will get sick, but you will have a chance to survive 20 times higher than without the vaccine.
        If you want to play covid roulette, go ahead, I tell you as someone who has been ill, an indescribable pleasure, even in a mild form, immediately the brains fall into place, but for many it is too late.
    7. Edvid
      Edvid 25 November 2021 01: 27
      0
      Pandemic project:
      https://www.nakanune.ru/articles/116869/
  2. nickolai.maliugin
    nickolai.maliugin 17 November 2021 06: 23
    +3
    The main thing is to beat in all respects. Vaccine for sick people. Medicine for sick people. If one of these drugs is not available, then everything goes down the drain.
    1. Flank
      Flank 17 November 2021 10: 46
      0
      There is no cure for smallpox, but they won with the vaccine. The vaccine works better than the medication. Basically, vaccinated people do not need medicine: they are transferred on their feet or at home in a week.
      1. Illanatol
        Illanatol 17 November 2021 14: 16
        +3
        There is no cure for smallpox, but the vaccine won


        One problem: the smallpox virus is not so volatile.
        When do you think the flu vaccine will finally win?
        Probably, by that time we will have time to fly to Alpha Centauri drinks
        1. Flank
          Flank 17 November 2021 14: 28
          -2
          Covid is several times less volatile than influenza. Influenza is not a problem and therefore is not defeated. If everyone were vaccinated against the flu, then its outbreaks would only occur if they did not guess which strain would be next year. And it will be easier to transfer, even if you don’t guess.
          1. Illanatol
            Illanatol 19 November 2021 09: 32
            +1
            Flu is not a problem


            A bold statement.
            Complications from the flu are a problem.
            Not so few people die from them. And in the Russian Federation, and around the world too.
            Although this may not be a problem for the authorities. Well, their weaklings, pensioners, we have a market all the same. Let the strongest survive, they are more cost effective.
    2. Viktor Sergeev
      Viktor Sergeev 17 November 2021 21: 52
      -1
      There is no cure for viruses, including covid. The tasks of doctors are only in the fact that, firstly, to give the body time to overcome the disease (oxygen and mechanical ventilation, the last chance), secondly to suppress the storm, thirdly to prevent blood clots, and the last one to prevent secondary diseases from occurring against the background of the weakening of the body.
      All medications that are prescribed at the initial stage are practically useless, but in the hospital they are already really starting to save, but still do not treat covid, here only themselves.
    3. ANB
      ANB 18 November 2021 00: 50
      +1
      ... Sick - medicine

      No effective antiviral drugs have yet been invented.
  3. Far B
    Far B 17 November 2021 06: 26
    +2
    The message of the article is clear: the author is trying to instill confidence in the current vaccination, emphasizing that post-vaccination problems are the result of the curvature of certain medical personnel. (From the point of view of journalism / propaganda - sleight of hand and no fraud).
    But at the same time, the author himself mentioned that:
    By the end of the 20s, it was already tested and recommended by the Pasteur Institute.
    None of the current anticoid vaccines can be called proven. Slap on the knee for six months or a year, they could not pass any clinical trials simply in terms of timing. The tests are going on right now, which the authorities no longer really hide. And in the role of laboratory rats - the population, which by hook (almost never) and by crook (regularly) are forced to be vaccinated. That is, to take part in a medical experiment, often against their will. And by the Nuremberg Tribunal, conducting medical experiments on people against their will was recognized as a crime against humanity. With a fairly predictable ending for experimenters. Dixi.
    1. No name B
      No name B 17 November 2021 06: 54
      +3
      It is also touching the attempts of members of the holy vaccine sect to impose on the whole society the idea of ​​their inferiority without vaccination. Three years is the minimum test period for vaccinations, only two have passed. Nowhere in Europe have I seen a single person who would voluntarily agree to be vaccinated, at least in the field of cargo transportation. Now in Ukraine there is a massive falsification of certificates, certificates, etc. just not to inject. We have almost no resistance, unlike Europe, where the people can slap the authorities on the horns ...
      Ps: According to the latest data, 330 thousand people died in Ukraine in a year - 67% of them were due to cardiovascular diseases, due to covid -0,4% and this despite the fact that if you believe the authorities, Ukraine is the leader in Europe in terms of morbidity ...
      1. Lech from Android.
        Lech from Android. 17 November 2021 06: 59
        +1
        Well, no need to cite Europe as an example ... there, too, they are turning the screws to the people no worse than ours. hi
        1. Far B
          Far B 17 November 2021 07: 02
          +6
          They are turning the nuts, but a colleague wrote that there "people can kick the authorities on the horns." (The example of French Macaroni with his attempt at pension reform, by the way, is quite indicative in this sense).
      2. Flank
        Flank 17 November 2021 10: 52
        -8
        Don’t lie, in Europe people are under the skirting board. Otherwise, the authorities would have slapped for refugees long ago.

        What is the timing of the trial for the flu shot? Seasonal. Three years?
        1. Dartik
          Dartik 18 November 2021 00: 32
          +1
          Quote: Flanke
          Otherwise, the authorities would have slapped for refugees long ago.

          They have been pressured for a long time - judging by the growing popularity of right-wing parties and Germania's unwillingness to let new migrants in.
          1. Flank
            Flank 18 November 2021 13: 19
            -1
            What did they do it with? Yellow vests? Have you changed the power? Maybe the head of someone was chopped off by a museum exhibit? The people there in Europe are powerless and castrated, they can do nothing.
            1. Dartik
              Dartik 18 November 2021 16: 26
              +2
              Quote: Flanke
              What did they do it with? Yellow vests? Have you changed the power? Maybe the head of someone was chopped off by a museum exhibit? The people there in Europe are powerless and castrated, they can do nothing.

              Since when are yellow vests migrants? Watch a video about their promotion. 90% of them are white. The authorities made concessions, not those who wanted the vests, but something in between - a compromise. Do you want to throw it off?
              The people there in Europe are powerless and castrated, they can do nothing.
              Well, yes, and 100k came out in Paris as a sign of solidarity after the terrorist attack in "Charlie Hebdo".
              After the last terrorist attack, what did France do and how did it tighten the laws against Islam, huh? In the Russian Federation, the last protest that somehow appeared was in 2011, and that was not for the better.
              1. Flank
                Flank 18 November 2021 17: 36
                -2
                So I say, the yellow vests do not know what they demanded and what the hell they got. All remained with their own and the migrants were not shortened. In addition, it was not the people themselves who dressed in vests, they were dressed. The people themselves cannot hold a meeting at the entrance to hire a cleaning lady, you know that well. In general, if their people could, they would already be able to because the conditions in Europe are inhuman.
                1. Dartik
                  Dartik 19 November 2021 17: 18
                  +1
                  So I say, the yellow vests do not know what they demanded and what the hell they got.
                  God, I just can't understand, have you been banned from Google? https://humanite-russie.ru/2019/12/10/poshliny-nalogi-obschestvennoe-mnenie-chego-dobilis-i-ne-dobilis-zhyoltye-zhilety/
                  Europe inhuman
                  hahahahaha, man, you ...
                  1. Flank
                    Flank 19 November 2021 17: 38
                    0
                    Are you stuck in the nineties? In Europe, people have been suffering for a long time. There is no clearance, but here are migrants.

                    So what, overthrew the government? Even the president remained the same. Abolished 120 thousand jobs instead of 500 thousand. You would say that at first you took a lot, then you gave a little. Have vests solved the migrant problem? Of course not. Which proves that the Maidan technology was used to put pressure on the government. Who used it? The Bolsheviks are not the capitalists! The bourgeois also benefited from the yellow vests.
                    1. Dartik
                      Dartik 21 November 2021 17: 43
                      +1
                      Are you stuck in the nineties? In Europe, people have been suffering for a long time. There is no clearance, but here are migrants.
                      When was the last time you were in Europe? Watching a video about Europe does not count. And then the water
                      Have vests solved the migrant problem?
                      apparently the person did not even read the article.
    2. Flank
      Flank 17 November 2021 10: 44
      -9
      The satellite has passed all the tests long ago. And it went brilliantly.
  4. Alex66
    Alex66 17 November 2021 06: 38
    +10
    You can recall the thalidomide catastrophe that led to the deformities of newborn babies. Vaccines from Covid have not been fully tested, and even more so there are no newborns from vaccinated parents (or there are still few of them), who will take responsibility? Golikova with Putin or the one who signed a voluntary consent to participate in the experiment? And they are already preparing to prick children and test them.
  5. Shopping Mall
    Shopping Mall 17 November 2021 06: 53
    -3
    That is why it was necessary to raise this topic? There are already problems with obscurantism and anti-vaccination in the country - just look at the comments. Sputnik-V has been in use for a year and a half, while anti-vaccine users have it all "untested". Probably, they are waiting for someone's tail to grow in two years. Some have already been vaccinated in the second round, and there are no problems, while others are running around shopping centers from guards - there are no QR codes ...

    Yes, there are cases of diseases in vaccinated (not after vaccination). But firstly, vaccination is a 99% guarantee - not 100%, secondly - the disease proceeds easily even in those who could have a hard time, thirdly - there is no certainty that the sick did not buy the certificate, fourthly - vaccination is demanding to the temperature regime - if the storage regime was violated during transportation, or the grafts were thawed earlier, then its effectiveness may be reduced, or even disappear altogether.
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 17 November 2021 07: 02
      +2
      My friend had a severe reaction to the vaccination ... the temperature rose in general for three days ... the tolerance of the vaccine can be manifested in different ways for each person.
      I have not noticed any reaction of the body to the vaccination on myself ... nor
      which absolutely.
      1. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 17 November 2021 09: 27
        +1
        After the "satellite" for 4 days, I was sausage, and the pig complained that the prick was painful and that was all
      2. Grim Reaper
        Grim Reaper 19 November 2021 15: 16
        0
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        My friend had a severe reaction to the vaccination ... the temperature rose in general for three days ... the tolerance of the vaccine can be manifested in different ways for each person.
        I have not noticed any reaction of the body to the vaccination on myself ... nor
        which absolutely.

        Here's the same thing. Injected and no consequences. Although I am hypertensive and the local therapist warned. But nothing terrible happened. After 8 days, 2nd dose :)
    2. Far B
      Far B 17 November 2021 07: 07
      +8
      Oh you, dear mom ...
      Sputnik-V has been in use for a year and a half, but anti-vaccine users have everything "untested"
      How many years on average does it take for clinical trials of vaccines - can you tell me? How many years heroin was a "cure for the flu" before it was withdrawn from pharmacies - don't you remind me? How many years thalidomide was the most popular sedative, coffin children in the womb - well, at least read it. A year and a half for a medicine is nothing at all.
      firstly, vaccination is a 99% guarantee - not 100%, secondly - the disease proceeds easily even for those who could have a hard time, thirdly - there is no certainty that the sick did not buy the certificate, fourthly - the vaccination is demanding temperature regime - if the storage regime was violated during transportation, or the grafts were thawed earlier, then its effectiveness may be reduced, or disappear altogether
      But this is called - "you do not need to accuse me of anything, I will still find an excuse." What we, in fact, can observe on the example of this article.
    3. Glory1974
      Glory1974 17 November 2021 09: 46
      0
      There are already problems with obscurantism and anti-vaccination in the country - just look at the comments. Sputnik-V has been in use for a year and a half, while anti-vaccine users have it all "untested".

      The problem is much deeper.
      In the newspaper "ARGUMENTS OF THE WEEK" interview with a doctor of medical sciences, who all his life has been dealing with covid in pigs. According to him, vaccination of the pig population does not lead to getting rid of the virus. After 5-6 years, the mortality of adults reaches 65% and the entire herd has to be liquidated. Interesting conclusions, isn't it?
      1. Avior
        Avior 17 November 2021 11: 56
        +1
        interview with a doctor of medical sciences

        no need to be misled. He is not a doctor of medical sciences and not a doctor at all, but a veterinarian.
        Proves that you need to buy his drug, and prohibit vaccinations
        vaccination of the pig population does not eliminate the virus. After 5-6 years, the mortality of adults reaches 65% and the entire herd has to be liquidated.

        and he said the wrong thing
        And the problem with COVID-19, which has gripped the planet in a monstrous vice, from the point of view of Vladislav Nikolayevich, is similar to coronavirus-borne gastroenteritis (VTGS) in pigs. In general, veterinary science was more involved in coronaviruses, the same HTGS in pigs was first registered in 1954. Mortality in adult pigs reached 65%, in piglets - 100%.
        1. Glory1974
          Glory1974 17 November 2021 12: 23
          +2
          He is not a doctor of medical sciences and not a doctor at all, but a veterinarian.

          To be precise, he is a doctor of biological sciences, a veterinarian, author of 26 patents in the field of veterinary medicine and medicine, director of a research institute.
          For you, of course, not an authority, but clearly knows what he is talking about.
          Proves that you need to buy his drug, and prohibit vaccinations

          about vaccinations, yes, about my drug did not make out. In any case, capitalism, what can you do?
          and he said the wrong thing

          And he said, if you read the following carefully:
          "In an epidemic of coronavirus infection, you cannot provoke the production of antibodies."
          Ultimately, this is hello to what was said above. And this was talked about a year ago. Vaccination leads to the appearance of mutated viruses and the situation is aggravated.
          1. Avior
            Avior 17 November 2021 12: 29
            0
            To be precise

            I was accurate when I corrected you.
            And with his title and with a quote about the mortality of pigs in the 50s.
            For you, of course, not an authority, but clearly knows what he is talking about.

            in the same article it is written that other scientists consider his methods unscientific.
            A scientist who knows what he is talking about on a particular issue does not say this in the yellow press to a wide layer of the ignorant public, but in journals from the Elsaver list to other scientists.
            And already based on the results of the discussions, to the general public.
          2. Shahno
            Shahno 17 November 2021 12: 30
            -3
            So in mice mutations are completely different and in dogs, and their speed is different, and the basic code is different. Yes, the general principles are the same .. But a veterinarian is probably better than a welder. But worse is the biochemist who studies homo sapiens. So, for example, I would take into account the opinion of the head of the special laboratory at Moscow State University, but he won't go to the media so easily ... because nothing is clear. But the vet is clear.
            1. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 17 November 2021 16: 46
              0
              Are you personally vaccinated?
    4. Dartik
      Dartik 18 November 2021 00: 30
      +1
      Quote: AVM
      Yes, there are cases of diseases among the vaccinated (not after vaccination).

      If a satellite, then people can get corona, as there is a chance that the virus will restore its entire RNA chain. And the person really gets corona disease. But the chances are slim and that's not it.
      But first, vaccination is a 99% guarantee - not 100%
      99 guarantee - from old stamps, it is not clear how to react to new ones, but still higher than without vaccination.
      that the sick did not buy the certificate
      This is where the problem arises, if a person goes to the hospital and his certificate is fake, then it is almost impossible for doctors to find out if this is true or not. Therefore, I think the statistics on sick people after vaccinations are underestimated - so that people have more incentive to put it. After all, and so shiz people.
    5. Illanatol
      Illanatol 19 November 2021 09: 35
      0
      firstly, vaccination is a 99% guarantee - not 100%


      Where does 99% come from?
      According to official data - 92% for the original strain.
  6. Olgovich
    Olgovich 17 November 2021 07: 17
    0
    412 children were born, of which 251 were vaccinated - the parents of the rest refused.

    the fate of the children of refuseniks is interesting - how much did they encounter tuberculosis in life?
  7. Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 17 November 2021 08: 09
    +3
    The trouble is that Koch's bacillus cannot be destroyed by human immunity, from the word in general, that is, it is impossible to develop one's own defense, tuberculosis is difficult to treat even with the most powerful antibiotics, and sometimes it is not cured. We will finish playing with antibiotics, there are already tuberculosis bacteria that are resistant even to the latest antibiotics.
    1. for
      for 17 November 2021 08: 47
      -3
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      tuberculosis is difficult to treat even with the most powerful antibiotics, and sometimes even untreated.

      It is treated as it is treated!
      1. Viktor Sergeev
        Viktor Sergeev 18 November 2021 08: 41
        -1
        There are types of Koch's bacillus that do not respond to the most powerful antibiotics - extensively drug-resistant tuberculosis.
    2. for
      for 18 November 2021 09: 13
      -1
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      We will finish playing with antibiotics, there are already tuberculosis bacteria that are resistant even to the latest antibiotics.

      Is tubazid an antibiotic?
      We've already played out with the covid vaccine.
  8. Konnick
    Konnick 17 November 2021 08: 15
    +4
    Quote: EvilLion
    This unvaccinated should be put under arrest. They've already pulled it down.

    For some reason, the vaccine makes a person aggressive, very much.
    1. Astra wild2
      Astra wild2 17 November 2021 09: 24
      +1
      I was vaccinated in February and revaccination on October 5, and I haven't bitten anyone else
    2. Viktor Sergeev
      Viktor Sergeev 18 November 2021 08: 44
      -1
      It is not the vaccine that makes it aggressive, but the deaths of relatives from covid, the deaths of thousands of people who listened to anti-axers and did not get vaccinated, the restrictive measures introduced due to the development of the disease, which are the culprit of anti-axers. Why should I, who had been ill and vaccinated, have to wear a muzzle or, in my case, not wearing it, be constantly under the threat of a fine? Why can't I see a doctor, because most of the doctors work in COVID? Why do pregnant women from our city have to give birth in the regional center, because the maternity hospital has been converted into a covid?
      1. for
        for 18 November 2021 09: 05
        -1
        Quote: Victor Sergeev
        Why should pregnant women from our city give birth in the regional center, because the maternity hospital was converted into a covid

        This is where if not a secret?
      2. Konnick
        Konnick 18 November 2021 10: 39
        +2
        Why should I, who had been ill and vaccinated, have to wear a muzzle or, in my case, not wearing it, be constantly under the threat of a fine?

        And why should I, who had recovered from the disease and received, in addition to antibodies, cellular immunity, which is 20 times more powerful than the vaccine, should I be vaccinated with my thrombosis? Who guarantees me no side effects?
        Why do I need to get vaccinated when I did not get infected from someone close to me and with whom I communicated without a mask?
  9. vladcub
    vladcub 17 November 2021 08: 47
    +3
    Tuberculosis, flu, smallpox, cholera. The "hate" is still the same, but they have been known for a long time, the crown is new. And all the unknown, at least, worries.
    There is a comment on one of the 18th naval sailings: "where the unknown causes a nightmare."
    Perhaps, in twenty or thirty years, when people get used to the "crown", we will look at it as an ordinary flu
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 17 November 2021 09: 08
      -7
      Perhaps, in twenty or thirty years, when people get used to the "crown", we will look at it as an ordinary flu


      If anyone stays, who will look at it. laughing drinks
      1. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 17 November 2021 09: 59
        +2
        Konstantin, why is it so gloomy? You ask in the hospital: how many babies have appeared in a year?
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 17 November 2021 10: 32
          -1
          How many died? wassat
          Hi Vera love , do not pay attention, I'm just playing the fool of idleness.
          1. Hunter 2
            Hunter 2 17 November 2021 10: 39
            0
            Greetings Konstantin hi why so pessimistic? You need to look at everything from the other side ... no virus kills everyone, it just makes survivors stronger drinks I made my family (on the advice) drink chaga laughing in my opinion, there will soon be a "civil coup" and the displacement of Me from leadership positions crying
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 17 November 2021 10: 52
              -2
              Hi Aleksey! smile We don’t have chaga, but they gave up drinking vodka, why poison ourselves with alcohol when the infection is present on a global scale. laughing
              For complete happiness, there was still a small, victorious war, well, say, with Estonia, for fun. drinks
              1. Hunter 2
                Hunter 2 17 November 2021 11: 02
                0
                Quote: Sea Cat
                Hi Aleksey! smile We don’t have chaga, but they gave up drinking vodka, why poison ourselves with alcohol when the infection is present on a global scale. laughing

                How to drink vodka thrown belay What was the decree? I am against, what kind of placard I will draw am and hid all the moonshine repeat
                Quote: Sea Cat

                For complete happiness, there was still a small, victorious war, well, say, with Estonia, for fun. drinks

                I can feel the Baltic tigers will tense up after this statement ... drinks
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 17 November 2021 11: 39
                  -3
                  ... what was the decree?


                  "It was instructed not to drink to someone - maybe ...
                  Another - with whom, when and how many bowls to share ...
                  When the four are all met,
                  Reasonable men, of course, will drink. "(C) smile laughing

                  I can feel the Baltic tigers will tense up ...


                  Yes, what kind of tigers they are, so tattered cats.
                  1. Hunter 2
                    Hunter 2 17 November 2021 11: 52
                    -5
                    Quote: Sea Cat


                    Yes, what kind of tigers they are, so tattered cats.

                    laughing laughing laughing It's beautiful there! I remember Latvia with great pleasure drinks Riga, Jurmala, Balduri. Studied there with them. The Baltic is actually a very interesting Sea! Yes, and Our people are not few there.
                    Given their demographics, we will soon be rediscovering uninhabited lands!
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 17 November 2021 12: 23
                      -4
                      Yes, the cities there are beautiful, since childhood I loved old Vilnius very much.
                      And as for demography, it is not very widespread in our country, although the people do not flee the country, but the Balts have spread throughout Europe, so you may be right about unpopulated lands. wink drinks
                      1. Hunter 2
                        Hunter 2 17 November 2021 12: 35
                        -6
                        Definitely !!! Raising a New Discoverer of Lands wink well, or we'll win the cards again fellow
                      2. Catfish
                        Catfish 17 November 2021 13: 17
                        -3
                        Raising a New Discoverer of Lands




                        Already growing up. wink
                      3. Hunter 2
                        Hunter 2 17 November 2021 13: 22
                        -3
                        Quote: Sea Cat


                        Already growing up. wink

                        My - was going to become a Polar explorer what Can reorient? what
                        Two years later - the cadet corps, and then let him think for himself. drinks
                      4. Catfish
                        Catfish 17 November 2021 13: 24
                        -2
                        It is difficult to say, in my opinion, let it be better to choose himself. smile
                      5. Hunter 2
                        Hunter 2 17 November 2021 13: 29
                        -3
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        It is difficult to say, in my opinion, let it be better to choose himself. smile

                        Polar explorers are in great demand in the region, they are exploring the shelf ... they earn excellent money, and since I have such Friends - Comrades ... He (the son) sees and analyzes. And new islands are also emerging, he thinks to open a new one and name it himself ... request
                      6. Hunter 2
                        Hunter 2 17 November 2021 15: 57
                        -1
                        What kind of Byaka is we minus? Open the face of Gulchatay laughing Well, if the "eyelet" does not hold - Phew a dristun at you.
                      7. Catfish
                        Catfish 17 November 2021 16: 14
                        0
                        Come on, it's even good: at one time we got sick of someone, so much so that at the sight of our nicknames, the client starts instant incontinence with a titanic dris. laughing This means that our arrows hit the target in due time. smile
                      8. Sergej1972
                        Sergej1972 18 November 2021 11: 32
                        0
                        The Lithuanians seem to have traditionally always had a better demographic situation than Latvians and Estonians.
                  2. Astra wild2
                    Astra wild2 17 November 2021 16: 51
                    +4
                    Hunting expert and Konstantin, someone minuses you in everything. Are your nicknames causing allergies?
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 17 November 2021 17: 24
                      +1
                      They cause diarrhea, and all rats are very prone to this disease. laughing
                      Their disadvantages give me pleasure, once again convincing me that I have discarded some rat completely on the case. And they still can't do anything with my rating - the legs are short. request
                      Alexei has the same story and the same attitude towards her. smile drinks
                      1. Astra wild2
                        Astra wild2 18 November 2021 09: 45
                        +2
                        Perhaps your rating provokes disadvantages?
                    2. Hunter 2
                      Hunter 2 18 November 2021 02: 17
                      +2
                      Quote: Astra wild2
                      Hunting expert and Konstantin, someone minuses you in everything. Are your nicknames causing allergies?

                      Dear Astra love We have such a radioactive circle repeat Constantine is still Radish clever and cunning laughing and I am the Enemy of all communists request although I did not even understand why, my wife is at the highest level in the Communist Party of the Russian Federation. She even writes comments periodically, she has long been a "general" lol
                      1. Astra wild2
                        Astra wild2 18 November 2021 09: 49
                        +1
                        "Spouse in the Communist Party" and how do you get along in your family: an anti-communist and a communist?
                        Is she on the site too?
                      2. Hunter 2
                        Hunter 2 18 November 2021 10: 00
                        +1
                        Quote: Astra wild2
                        "Spouse in the Communist Party" and how do you get along in your family: an anti-communist and a communist?
                        Is she on the site too?

                        Yeah, it happens periodically smile why am I an anti-communist? Absolutely not, I am more of an Anarchist!
                        Let's get along fine, I'm smart - She's beautiful laughing and I have a higher rank (she is also liable for military service).
                      3. Astra wild2
                        Astra wild2 18 November 2021 10: 42
                        +2
                        Here is the secret of family well-being.
                      4. LiSiCyn
                        LiSiCyn 18 November 2021 15: 15
                        +2
                        Quote: Hunter 2
                        Absolutely not, I am more of an Anarchist!

                        All sailors are anarchists. Because their uniforms are black ... laughing
                        Hi Aleksey! hi
                      5. Catfish
                        Catfish 18 November 2021 10: 01
                        +3
                        Yes, I, in general, do not give a damn about the minuses, and those who put them, all this is ephemeral, virtual life. I only care about my friends that I found on this site. smile
                      6. Astra wild2
                        Astra wild2 18 November 2021 10: 50
                        +2
                        In the first "coming" I, like a little one, climbed into every "hole", and now I "ostepinilas" and also prefer friendly communication. The best communication under the works of excellent authors, and there are 3 of them: Valery, Vyacheslav Olegovich and Eduard
                      7. Catfish
                        Catfish 18 November 2021 11: 06
                        +1
                        I agree with you. smile love
          2. Astra wild2
            Astra wild2 17 November 2021 13: 41
            +1
            I envy you. And now we were summoned and each of them, against signature, handed a notice "for the current six months, 19 health workers have died from COVID-19. You can get vaccinated at the following addresses ..." home. By the way, she's got a notification too.
            His Majesty Show-off
    2. Dartik
      Dartik 18 November 2021 00: 26
      +1
      Quote: vladcub
      Tuberculosis, flu, smallpox, cholera. The "hate" is still the same, but they have been known for a long time, the crown is new. And all the unknown, at least, worries.
      There is a comment on one of the 18th naval sailings: "where the unknown causes a nightmare."
      Perhaps, in twenty or thirty years, when people get used to the "crown", we will look at it as an ordinary flu

      The crown has been known since the 60s. Simply, a stamp appeared that should not have appeared.
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 19 November 2021 13: 50
        0
        In the corner for the corn. Let your mind grow!
        This punishment was practiced in my childhood
    3. Illanatol
      Illanatol 19 November 2021 09: 42
      0
      Perhaps, in twenty or thirty years, when people get used to the "crown", we will look at it as an ordinary flu


      All things are possible.
      It is possible that the corona pandemic is just a model experiment. As before "bird" and "swine" flu. So to speak, testing in conditions as close as possible to combat, the next more large-scale phase.
      And then something more really heavy will be thrown at us. With a mortality rate of 40-50 percent.
      And Bill Gates will happily rub his little hands: finally, the environmental problems will be solved.
  10. BAI
    BAI 17 November 2021 09: 08
    +4
    The thing is that mainly the population of developing and poor countries suffers from tuberculosis, but COVID-19 affects almost everyone indiscriminately.

    And one more key difference - a fairly effective vaccine has long been invented for tuberculosis, and the constantly mutating SARS-CoV-2 virus regularly calls into question the effectiveness of existing vaccines.

    AIDS also affects everyone and there is no cure for it either. But no one panics and does not introduce lockdowns.
    I do not remember about oncology and cardiology, the mortality rate from which is several times higher than from Covid.
    1. Astra wild2
      Astra wild2 17 November 2021 09: 21
      -3
      With AIDS, everything is simple: you sleep with your wife (husband) and will not touch any AIDS, but if you change partners: "I changed women like gloves" (c) then AIDS and syphilis and everything will be
  11. Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 17 November 2021 09: 14
    0
    Colleagues, good morning. Actually, the topic is scandalous and not very "tasty" for me, but I could not pass it by
  12. Konnick
    Konnick 17 November 2021 09: 26
    +2
    Quote: Chekmarev
    All vaccinators must be separated and isolated so that they do not infect the people around them. Vaccinated people carry the corona and distribute it.

    Not certainly in that way. We are told that vaccinated people are more likely to tolerate the disease than unvaccinated people. Those. when an unvaccinated person falls ill and lies in bed, and the sick vaccinated person does not notice the disease and continues to lead a normal life, and even flaunts, ignoring the mask, and the mask is against the spread of the virus, and not protection, thereby becoming a carrier of infection.
    Maybe this is the reason for the simultaneous increase in the number of sick and vaccinated.
    1. Flank
      Flank 17 November 2021 10: 58
      -5
      The concentration of the virus in the vaccinated is lower. And in the early days, the anti-Vaxer also does not notice that he is sick and flaunts with an increased concentration of the virus. When he lies down, he is no longer dangerous, the test from the nose does not show a covid.
  13. Konnick
    Konnick 17 November 2021 09: 33
    +2
    Quote: Astra wild2
    I was vaccinated in February and revaccination on October 5, and I haven't bitten anyone else

    This does not threaten you, you could not get vaccinated, you won’t get sick.
    The main thing is calmness. You just have a healthy nervous system and do not succumb to hysteria in the media. Few of us are healthy laughing

    Add to Paracelsus-
    And the treatment of mechanical damage depends on the state of mind hi
  14. Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 17 November 2021 09: 55
    0
    I believe that there were the following reasons in Lübeck: 1) vaccines were prepared in a hurry, and in medicine it is necessary to combine speed and caution
    2) failure of the autoclave laboratory technicians to follow the instructions. Failure to follow instructions very often leads to trouble.
    1. Avior
      Avior 17 November 2021 11: 28
      +2
      The official cause of the tragedy is the vaccine was stored in an autoclave along with a live virus.
      The author omitted or did not know the fact that the vaccination of newborn babies with the BCG vaccine was officially adopted in the USSR in 1928, after two years it was a tragedy, and no one canceled it, and it did not infect children with tuberculosis.
      There is also a big nuance - the BCG vaccine at that time did not give 100 percent protection against the disease, like vaccines against covid, nevertheless it was massively used.
      1. Sergey Zilinsky
        Sergey Zilinsky 17 November 2021 12: 47
        +1
        BCG does not provide protection against tuberculosis at all. Humoral (antibodies) immunity against mycobacterium tuberculosis is untenable, the main work on the destruction is carried out by T-killers and macrophages. BCG is an "indicator" vaccine, with the help of which, by the bend of the tuberculin test (before the Mantoux or Pirquet test, now the Diaskin test), it makes it possible to suspect that a person has contracted tuberculosis. At least, the teachers of the Department of Phthisiology explained to us that way.
        1. Avior
          Avior 17 November 2021 13: 01
          0
          write that it reduces the incidence rate, especially in children
          1. Sergey Zilinsky
            Sergey Zilinsky 17 November 2021 15: 33
            0
            Antibodies will work with hematogenous dissemination of the process from the primary focus (most often, these are the lungs), therefore there is much less risk of damage to other organs, for example, the development of tuberculous meningitis. But they are USEFUL in case of primary infection (this is where the indicator function of the vaccine comes in handy) or reactivation of an old focus in the same lungs (since antibodies simply do not penetrate into the focus of granulomatous inflammation caused by mycobacteria, they are well separated from the blood, in which antibodies are contained, therefore only the cellular link of immunity is working there normally - the very macrophages and T-killers).
            1. Avior
              Avior 17 November 2021 16: 33
              0
              Which clearly proves that vaccination is used, even if it gives a partial effect.
              This is one of the arguments of anti-vaccinators - the vaccine does not give a 100 percent result.
      2. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 17 November 2021 13: 30
        0
        "stored in an autoclave along with a live virus" is unlikely to be provided for in the instructions. Say after that that the Germans love order, everything is done according to the instructions.
        1. Avior
          Avior 17 November 2021 16: 35
          +1
          After this incident, it probably got into the instructions.
        2. Sergey Zilinsky
          Sergey Zilinsky 17 November 2021 17: 14
          0
          Well, what are you so Germans, obviously - Chamberlain personally shit, swapped the test tubes in places. And yet, the causative agent of tuberculosis is not a virus, but a bacterium. More than once "the journalist has raped scientists", calling bacteria viruses (more than once I heard myself how Vibrio cholerae, for example, plague Yersinia were called viruses).
      3. Illanatol
        Illanatol 19 November 2021 13: 31
        0
        The official cause of the tragedy is the vaccine was stored in an autoclave along with a live virus.


        Vaccines are not stored in an autoclave. They are stored in a freezer or thermostat.
        Autoclave - a device for sterilizing dishes or solutions at high temperatures (approximately 150 degrees and above Celsius) under high pressure.
        1. Avior
          Avior 19 November 2021 17: 16
          +1
          Yes, you're right, the storage was in an incubator
  15. Avior
    Avior 17 November 2021 10: 47
    +4
    First of all, it should be noted from the very beginning that this material does not carry any ideological load, and even less does it propagate anti-vaccine sentiments in Russian society.

    And it is written in such a way that it promotes, they say, you first check the vaccine well, so that it is not like in Lubeck.
    The fact that BCG saved the lives of hundreds of millions of people is ignored in the article or mentioned in passing, and the death of children for some unknown reason, whether because of a vaccine, or because of unsanitary conditions in the clinic, occupies the overwhelming part of the article.
    And the author could well write that this is the rarest case with the huge mass use of the vaccine.
    Anton Pavlovich Chekhov, who died of tuberculosis, turned over in his grave from such articles: (((
  16. Stormsdruttin
    Stormsdruttin 17 November 2021 12: 00
    +1
    the then famous French BCG (Bacille Calmette-Guerlin)

    Typo. BCG vaccine Bacillus Calmette — Guérin. "Bacillus Calmette - Guerin"
  17. Keyser soze
    Keyser soze 17 November 2021 13: 46
    +1
    In general, mistrust of governments and Big Pharma is the main motive for people who do not want to get vaccinated against Covid. And they have very compelling reasons and punctures for the pharmaceutical company in the history of vaccines. For example, the vaccine against papilloma of the HPV virus (against uterine cancer, but I don’t know how it’s in Russian) and which is done only voluntarily, little girls and until now remains very, very controversial in the medical environment themselves and after that I don’t know how many years of tests and use ...

    Second, there are vaccines and vaccines. I am an adherent of serous vaccines like BCG and so on. But making a vaccine for the flu into an obligation and from people who do not want to do it for themselves - criminals, is beyond my understanding. For the most part, well, 90% of them are not anti-axers, but completely normal people and stupid and populist governments around the world have caught up with such panic and horror in two years that I’ll hear about the crown and want to shoot someone.

    PS I am vaccinated with Astra Zeneca, plus against seasonal flu, Sanofi vaccine. But this is my choice, because I have reached the age of 50 and are sick and tired of having the flu and working sick.
    And a month ago, I had covid disease, well, so-so - I sneezed twice, lost my sense of smell for a week and that's it. Maybe because of the vaccine, or maybe because of cellular immunity - this is not the first time that we all meet with coronavirus - in 2015 there was a coronavirus again.
  18. Alsur
    Alsur 17 November 2021 17: 09
    0
    Quote: Chekmarev
    The more vaccinated, the more sick. Coincidence? I do not think!

    And where did you see some kind of significant increase in the vaccinated, what would make such conclusions, i.e. that it would be possible to establish a correlation between the increase in the number of vaccinated and the increase in the number of cases? How strange you see the situation, in Russia there is a low percentage of vaccinated people, therefore, the incidence is increasing. Now, if in Russia there were 90-99% of the vaccinated, then in this case you might and would be right. And so the number of cases is growing in our country because only 42% are vaccinated.
  19. Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 17 November 2021 18: 55
    +1
    First of all, it is the blind, total approach to the problem that strains. Vaccination with a still very fresh drug affects those who have already been ill, which is nonsense in general. What is the point of vaccinating those who have already been ill and have natural immunity? What is the point of doing this every six months? In the environment known to me, symptomatic and asymptomatic patients did not have recurrent illnesses, I myself, a year after I suffered COVID, did an antibody test and they were, that is, the immunity worked.
    And the state demands that I inject myself with the existing immunity, will it add health to me personally? Who will be responsible for the consequences, if any? This question, which can be asked by anyone who has already been ill, is simply ignored - everyone is once again scratched with the same brush, this is such a concern!
  20. Oleg Zorin
    Oleg Zorin 17 November 2021 22: 03
    0
    ... what nonsense in the article! This is what I tell you as a doctor
  21. Dartik
    Dartik 18 November 2021 00: 23
    0
    Simply, our people want to get a Spanish woman, because the more we allow the virus to recognize our vulnerabilities, the stronger it becomes - more mutations, more threat. But it is impossible to calculate this, because no one is undertaking to predict on covid anymore. Strengthened or weakened. We know little about our eternal enemies.
  22. Dsv
    Dsv 20 November 2021 20: 14
    0
    The effectiveness of the tuberculosis vaccine is also exaggerated, with 100% of those vaccinated, they still die. In Yakutsk, tuberculosis affects indiscriminately both poor and well-to-do people, I personally know three people who are quite normal in terms of health and finances who have suffered this disease. Now for them, the annual visit to FLH causes a feeling of fear, because the pathogen still remained in the body.