Russia to help China develop its own AC332 AHL heavy helicopter

In the near future, China will receive its own heavy helicopter, its development will be carried out jointly with Russia within the framework of the signed agreement. The head of the Russian Helicopters holding, Andrei Boginsky, spoke about this at a meeting with Vladimir Putin.

Russia will help China develop its own heavy helicopter, the final contract was signed in July this year after years of negotiations. Their result was an agreement on cooperation in the creation of a heavy helicopter AC332 AHL and its serial production in China.

Negotiations on the creation of a helicopter for China have been going on since 2008, in 2016 an intergovernmental agreement was signed, according to which Russia will design a number of key components of the helicopter, as well as provide technologies. The Chinese side represented by Avicopter will act as the lead developer. that is, he will carry out all the work, from design to serial production.

This year's contract finalizes the agreement and specifies that Russia will develop a transmission, tail rotor and anti-icing system for the new helicopter. Boginsky did not give other details.

It will take 13 years to create the helicopter, as a result, China will receive a heavy AC332 AHL helicopter for its own use and supply it for export.

Preliminary performance characteristics of the new helicopter look like this: max. takeoff weight - 38,2 tons, carrying capacity inside the fuselage - 10 tons, on the external sling - 15 tons. Service ceiling - 5,7 km, range - 630 km, speed - 300 km / h.

Comments

[Victor_B]

The carrying capacity is a quarter less than that of the MI-26.
So it will be cheaper.

[rocket757]

This means that part of the work, orders from ours will be intercepted ... is this really gut?

[DymOk_v_dYmke]

Quote: rocket757

This means that part of the work, orders from ours will be intercepted ... is this really gut?

That is it. Helping a competitor develop = undercutting their own supply contracts.
It seems to me that it is better to sell licenses for a limited edition of our developments.
At least something will be received by our developers.

[SKVichyakow]

Quote: DymOk_v_dYmke

Quote: rocket757

This means that part of the work, orders from ours will be intercepted ... is this really gut?

That is it. Helping a competitor develop = undercutting their own supply contracts.
It seems to me that it is better to sell licenses for a limited edition of our developments.
At least something will be received by our developers.

I’m wondering what they give us in return for the technologies we have received. I think in this case we will not receive anything, well, unless they pay for the development. You can help, but we must ONLY sell critical units and assemblies to them.

[DymOk_v_dYmke]

Quote: SKVichyakow

I’m wondering what they give us in return for the technologies we have received. I think in this case we will not receive anything, well, unless they pay for the development. You can help, but we must ONLY sell critical units and assemblies to them.

Critical, yes.
For the rest, the payment for previous developments (if not plundered) is the financing of new ones. That is, financing the gap in the future.

[dauria]

It seems to me that it is better to sell licenses for a limited edition of our developments.

We now have a gap between the Mi-8 and the Mi-26. It was Mi-6.
Now it is felt that cars of this class are still needed.
The Chinese will fill it in. What they were going to design - so this is the good old "six". The device was not just successful - it was a record one.

[TermNachTer]

The engines are planned to be "136", like on the Mi - 26 - why is the carrying capacity less?

[Victor_B]

The engines are planned to be "136", like on the Mi - 26 - why is the carrying capacity less?

Preliminary performance characteristics of the new helicopter look like this: max. takeoff weight - 38,2 tons, carrying capacity inside the fuselage - 10 tons, on the external sling - 15 tons. Service ceiling - 5,7 km, range - 630 km, speed - 300 km / h.

source: RTE Mi-26T, section 000.00.00 "Helicopter", page 9 (December 1/94)

normal takeoff weight, t - 49,6
maximum takeoff weight, t - 56,0
weight of an empty helicopter, t - 28,2
load weight max., t - 20,0
maximum capacity of fuel tanks (without additional tanks), l - 12000
flight range with full refueling km - 800
static ceiling, m - 1800
dynamic ceiling, m - 4600
flight speed max., km / h - 295
cruising flight speed, km / h - 255

[TermNachTer]

So I say that with the same engines, they want to make a turntable with much less capabilities.

[bayard]

Smaller fuselage size, smaller internal volume, higher altitude and possibly speed, shorter range (and hence fuel capacity), but as a result (with the same engines) much better dynamic characteristics. Apparently they don't need excessive carrying capacity, but everything else is important. Incl. for action in the mountains.
We can profit from this venture in terms of developing our own engines for the Mi-26M (now only Zaporozhye), incl. for sale to the same Chinese.

[Ros 56]

Yeah, we will help, only then they will spit on us. First time or something.

[DymOk_v_dYmke]

Quote: Ros 56

Yeah, we will help, only then they will spit on us. First time or something.

Yes. Actually, the USSR created their entire serious production base.

[cultural post]

Quote: DymOk_v_dYmke

Quote: Ros 56

Yeah, we will help, only then they will spit on us. First time or something.

Yes. Actually, the USSR created their entire serious production base.

Here it is also necessary to take into account HOW created the production base of the USSR. And he created it on the principle of proletarian solidarity, not bothering himself with licensing agreements or lucrative contracts. He gave these productions stupidly.
Thus, sticking their enterprises into future production chains, while maintaining property and intellectual rights to their products, while exercising technical supervision is the most profitable solution.
Because the fact that China, one way or another, if anything, will create its own helicopter without us, simply copying decisions, I personally have no doubt.

[Alex777]

Negotiations have been going on for 8 years. If they could, they would have created it already.
As we broke off with Motor Sich, we became more negotiable.

[DymOk_v_dYmke]

I have already met with Chinese (PRC, not China) products, in the passport of which it was noted that it was released under our (RF) license. Licenses from enterprises of the Urals. This is exactly how it should be.

[Cron]

Russia to help China develop its own AC332 AHL heavy helicopter

In exchange for what?

[Mountain shooter]

Quote: Cron

In exchange for what?

For money, of course.

[Cron]

Quote: Mountain Shooter

For money, of course.

It's not that interesting, technology is needed. And for the sake of money, you can sell finished products.

[Mountain shooter]

Quote: Cron

It's not that interesting, technology is needed. And for money, you can sell finished products

Technologies are still moving from us to them, and not vice versa. Why? Do not know. But at the moment it is a fact ...

[seeker of truth 777]

there are many things that you will not notice, but they are very important.
(translated from the Chinese side)
After years of hard work, the Central Research Institute of Cyclones in Russia finally launched a self-developed 2016x640 pixel component on the market in 521. The main component of this new thermal imager is an infrared focal plane array of approximately 300 pixels. The technical level is equivalent to that of China from the turn of the century to 000. Thus, Russia is only three steps away from China in the field of thermal imaging technology.

[Mountain shooter]

Quote: Truth Seeker 777

After several years of hard work, the Central Research Institute of Cyclones in Russia is finally in

This is the Research Institute "Cyclone", and he made uncooled bolometric matrices. The inventor of this design and technology is the French. China is secondary. Who was selling what to whom - did not research, but "Cyclone" is not chasing the Chinese, but the French ...

[Ros 56]

From them, even in the best case scenario, we will not wait for technologies, they are not us.

[donavi49]

you can sell finished products

They don't buy that much. Especially countries such as India, China. They require a joint venture, release at home with increasing localization, or even outsource companies, and then hang the tag "Designed and made in India / China."

For BP, this is a good contract for foreign currency, which for a couple of years will allow maintaining the pants not only for design bureaus and pilot plants, but also have a positive effect on reporting, and not reduce expenses for the corporation. And then, as always - general reporting in red, who is to blame? Workers Ivan and Pavel from the Kazan plant, we will expel such workers, cutting off 10% of the workers from each workshop. Immediately, reporting will turn green, you can report to Putin

[seeker of truth 777]

do you call it a joint venture?
Russia will develop several components, including transmissions, tail rotor and de-icing systems. The Chinese enterprise will be the main developer responsible for design, prototyping, testing, certification, training and series production, as well as marketing and overall coordination of the helicopters.

[donavi49]

In this case it is generally attract companies to outsource... Here in C929 - there is a joint venture.

[DymOk_v_dYmke]

Quote: Cron

It's not that interesting, technology is needed. And for the sake of money, you can sell finished products.

As a last resort, limited licenses.

[DymOk_v_dYmke]

Quote: Mountain Shooter

Quote: Cron
In exchange for what?

For money, of course.

In exchange for the money buried in the HZ where.

[rocket757]

But this is an interesting, correct question.

[TermNachTer]

Firstly, money, and secondly, the Chinese will use the turntable for military purposes, which means that the mattress makers will have more problems and less time and opportunities to mess with Russia.

[Thrifty]

What for do it yourself to procreate a competitor? Break the contract, and let the Chinese do everything themselves!

[rocket757]

Russia to help China develop its own AC332 AHL heavy helicopter

... So they themselves can do this ... a little later, spending more time and resources.

[Alf]

Quote: rocket757

So they themselves can do this.

And what haven’t been done yet?

[rocket757]

They raised scientific, design, and working personnel. They worked out the technology, prepared production facilities ... and they had other things to do.
The time has come, they have prepared, now they will do it.
Normally, this is exactly what happens.

[Alf]

Quote: rocket757

They raised scientific, design, and working personnel. They worked out the technology, prepared production facilities ... and they had other things to do.
The time has come, they have prepared, now they will do it.
Normally, this is exactly what happens.

Let them do it. We'll see. They copied the SU family, but the dvigun cannot make a normal one, although this "fiery heart" is already under 30 years old.
Maybe the question is different - we have already forgotten how to design and release?

[rocket757]

What are the options ... they have NOT LEARNED yet, have not grown up ... but we have losses, failures, for known reasons and ... a difficult path of recovery, if it takes place of course.
This is my vision of what happened / is happening, and the truth may be somewhere around the corner.

[Alf]

Quote: rocket757

but we have losses, failures, for known reasons, and ... t

So it is necessary to recover by ourselves, and not to pump the muscles of the enemy. But does this power need it?

[rocket757]

This is the kind of power / upper now ... some who only did what they destroyed, are perfectly inscribed in it now ...
The question is .. though, is it worth asking?

[Alf]

Quote: rocket757

This is the kind of power / upper now ... some who only did what they destroyed, are perfectly inscribed in it now ...
The question is .. though, is it worth asking?

Hmmm ...

[askort154]

Give China technology ?! Don't be careful!
We presented the R-7, now we are watching from the sidelines how they are rapidly exploring the Cosmos.

[Nafanya from the sofa]

We presented the R-7, now we are watching from the sidelines how they are rapidly exploring the Cosmos.

R-7 - oxygen / kerosene. And the Chinese Changzheng, on which they let the astronauts in, is heptyl. So it is necessary to write "presented" Proton "..." or not write at all.

[askort154]

Nafanya from the couch ... So you have to write "presented" Proton "..." or not write at all.

Yes, I described myself, they donated not the R-7, but the technologies R-1, R-2, and
R-5m, which became their "Dumfyn - 2", etc. Aircraft Il-28 (N-5), Tu-16 (N-6).
And the red line of my post was - "Giving China technology is imprudent." Now I confirm once again in more detail.
And with regards to "advice", they are given when asked about it.

[Nafanya from the sofa]

And with regards to "advice", they are given when asked about it.

And I do not give advice. I am stating facts.
ps P-1, P-2 and P-5M were also oxygenated. S.P. Korolev did not make rockets using high-boiling components at all. Therefore, it is simply impossible to use the technology of oxygen rockets in the production of heptyl rockets. They- (technologies) are different!

[askort154]

Once again - "on the tanks". I'm talking about the transfer of many technologies to China,
fraught. And the USSR transferred a lot, and trained a lot of Chinese specialists, including in the development of atomic weapons. That is, the legs of China's current successes in aviation and rocketry grow from the USSR. Moreover, there is fuel here, now is not the 60s of the 20th century, therefore, technologies with fuel have gone ahead, respectively. You don't wear tarpaulin boots now either. Everything !

[donavi49]

Um, there's nothing from the R-7 at all. The only roots can be found at Zenith, and then on engines, for example, here's a recent rocket - on November 5, it flew on the Chinese version of the RD-120, well, deeply changed.


Freight vehicle5, generally a hydrogen club. It is closer to the Delta, and there are no missiles on this fuel in Russia.

Medium carriers fly on a stinker and are not interested in ecologists.

And even piloted on a stinker.

And they also have a wagon and a trolley with solid-fuel carriers.

[Castro Ruiz]

The question is, what is interesting in the defense industry China can offer in return.

[DymOk_v_dYmke]

Quote: CastroRuiz

The question is, what is interesting in the defense industry China can offer in return.

China is hardly capable of giving anything except our own developments of the times of the USSR.

[Ilgizl]

Only grandmothers. Technology in electronics could have been an option. But we probably don't need it. We will, as usual, buy and receive proncent to whoever needs it.

[A. h. 52]

Translating into human language from Newspeak: Russia sells technology to China.

[Castro Ruiz]

Boyes, INTO V rule. :(

[Orsis338]

At first they talked about joint development, now about help

[faiver]

Well, this is not the first such contract with China, they have one turntable from Kamov flying with might and main ...

[Alexander 3]

Technology is everywhere. The technology of building the hull is one thing, the technology of building the propeller is more expensive. The most important thing is the engine, they need to buy it.

[Ilgizl]

Then they will enter the market and, due to the powerful industry, rivet such a quantity that at the price they will kill us in the first place.

[Vasyan1971]

Russia to help China develop its own heavy helicopter

Apparently, the "Chinese brothers" are interested in engines ...

[eehnie]

Such a helicopter would also be useful for Russia and the Russian Armed Forces, which actually do not have a helicopter of this size category after the complete exhaustion of the Mi-6/10/22. The work on the development of these parts can help in the development of the Mi-46 and Ka-102 (later) projects.

China's high interest in this helicopter is not accidental, it is a size category of interest for utility / civilian helicopters, where fixed wing aircraft outperform helicopters in civilian markets.

(Automatic translation from English)

A helicopter like this would be also good for Russia and the Russian Armed Forces, that have not actually an helicopter in this size category after the complete exhaustion of the Mi-6/10/22. The work of development of these parts can help in the development of the Mi-46 and Ka-102 (later) projects.

The high interest of China in this helicopter is not casual, this is a size category of interest for auxiliary / civil helicopters, where the fixed wing aircrafts lose against helicopters in the civil markets.

[Pavel57]

The engine is the same as on the Mi-26. The Chinese in this project essentially need a gearbox - design and manufacturing experience.