"Lynx". Operation Details

340
"Lynx". Operation Details


In November, in the 10 Special Operations Brigade (Molkino, Krasnodar Territory), two Lynx armored vehicles have been operating since November 2011. Impressions of this car from the brigade servicemen and mine personally see below.

Prehistory In the brigade it is known that in 2011, the cars were operated for about a month at the Chebarkul training ground (Chelyabinsk region), after which they were sent for storage at a warehouse of automotive vehicles in Fryazino. The warehouse at that time was in the process of being disbanded, and two of the eight vehicles transferred the 10 to the special brigade. It can be assumed that these are machines from the first batch, which was delivered to KAMAZ in the form of vehicle sets in April 2011.
The vehicles are assigned to a company of special weapons, but they are not regularly listed in it and, accordingly, are not taken into account in the combat schedule. The car is rarely used to travel by special orders of the command, in particular, this winter was involved in escorting columns of ammunition at the Prudboy training ground (Volgograd region). Every month operating reports are sent to the GABTU MO RF



2.

The main car run was obtained on the same “Prudboe”, where the car traveled almost exclusively along the tracks, while moving from Fryazino to Molkino and participating in the May 9 parade in Rostov-on-Don



3.

As such, a serious off-road performance check was not carried out, as far as I understood, there were only a few test drives. According to their results, the opinion about the car is bad:
- slowly accelerates, which is critical when evacuating special forces groups
- protectors are called unsuitable for off-road. Rubber soft, wear out quickly



4.



5.

- when driving on dirt, the car is constantly in a rut, if it is deep, the car sits on the bottom. If you sit on the bottom, then trying to get out yourself is useless, because "Lynx" gets stuck even more and the automatic transmission can simply be disabled. They say that it is better to immediately cling to the winch and pull. There are no complaints about the work of the winch, reliable and durable, which distinguishes it from the one on the Tigr STS. The technical documentation indicates that “Lynx” can be towed “painlessly” for it for a distance of no more than 50 km at a speed not higher than 45 km / h.



6.

When they started talking about the dirt, the officer immediately remembered that the STS "Tiger", when landing on the bottom, could not get out into the dirt on its own and led historywhere the Tiger, which had been buried under the hood, had to be taken out, putting in a harness one after the other three similar machines, which the fellow with difficulty pulled out.
The “lynx” in the brigade was not tested in driving through the snow and in overcoming water obstacles fording, therefore, unfortunately, there will be no impressions of this.
Of the advantages of the chassis, a soft suspension is noted, which absorbs well all bumps and road irregularities.
After some time, the company is expected to re-equip the special armament of the brigade with the Tiger TSS on the Lynx, and then the machine will be fully exploited and a complete opinion can be made about it.

Driver training for the “Lynx” is carried out for two weeks on special courses in the Moscow region, where they teach driving a car with automatic transmission, show how to fix minor breakdowns, clarify towing rules, etc.
The officers believe that for a conscript, the car will be complicated.
Repairs should be made by representatives of the manufacturer, but so far there has been no serious damage.
Because of minor repairs, it was necessary to fasten, which were torn off due to the vibration of the battery terminal, during operation at the Prudboy. Officers associate it with the improper operation of the driver of the car.
At the recent shooting of the program "Landfill" TV reporters bent over one of the steps while driving off-road on a hillock



7.

Next will be a lot of photos from the outside and inside with explanations.
I really wanted to see how the crew was placed in the car, so the command allocated 5 soldiers for a photo shoot



8.



9.

The driver's seat is the only one moving back and forth, the rest are rigidly fixed (in the photo it is approximately in the middle position)



10.

Place the paratrooper immediately behind the driver



11.



12.

Commander's seat



13.

Place the paratrooper immediately behind the commander



14.

The height of the soldier sitting in the middle, two meters



15.

Now let's take a closer look at each place.
Driver's door (all the doors in the car are identical)



16.

Mirror adjustment



17.

Wide steps on the car, apparently, from those improvements that appeared on the "Lynx" on the basis of operating the first two cars in Russia. The fastener of the step itself was made completely unsuccessfully, in motion due to the vibration, the bolts unwind, as a result of which the steps during the route from Moscow had to be simply removed so as not to lose them along the road. Native, narrow steps that are included, much more convenient and reliable



18.

Driver's seat



19.



20.



21.



22.



23.



24.



25.



26.



27.

Lighting plafond



28.

I shot in the afternoon, so I could not check whether the brightness was enough



29.

Overview from the driver's seat is normal



30.



31.

Let's go to the commanding place



32.

As already said, the commander and crew seats are fixed, they do not move back and forth, the back does not deflect. The officer, who had overtaken the car from Moscow, said that after 2.5-3 hours he had uncomfortable feelings from sitting in one position, he had to stop to warm up. This, of course, depends on individual physiology, but there is no place to sit differently in the car, a very dense arrangement prevents



33.

My height 181 cm, on the commander's seat, my knees in plastic did not rest in front, but it would not be possible to fall apart with comfort at all



34.

Five-point seat belts. Quick release lock is very convenient, allows you to get rid of the belts very quickly



35.

Specially made a video where the soldiers, being fully fastened with seat belts, try to leave the car as soon as possible. All the soldiers are drivers, for the first time they tried to get out of the car for speed just before shooting. Everything took about 6 seconds (the command was submitted to 0: 03)



Seats paratroopers. The legs have nowhere to stretch



36.



37.

The air conditioner in the car is very good, there are no complaints to work, it keeps cool coolly. But I heard two different opinions on the heater, one person said it was warm, the other that when driving from Moscow at a temperature of -15 -20 degrees in the car was uncomfortable. Of course, something may have been incorrectly adjusted, but a negative comment is present. At the same time, it is noted that the machine starts up regularly with -30



38.

In the cabin on the partition there is a power distribution unit in the cab with branching connectors (12 / 24 B) for connecting consumers



39.

However, the signalman was unable to connect any radio station to it. Either they forgot to localize the connectors, or the signalman is not Copenhagen



40.

The head restraints on all seats are removable, mounted on fasteks type locks



41.

Armchair with headrest removed



42.

Um, I don’t know how to call them correctly, but the covers on the chair and the support for body armor are also removable. In the center of the chair with the overlays removed. Without them, it will be comfortable to sit for small people.



43.



44.

All seats behind rise, so the machine gunner will not have to mark time on his seat



45.

On each side of each seat are locks that keep the seat folded



46.

Seats folded on two chairs. Together with the overlays, the outermost seat didn’t fold up (maybe, what I did wrong), so I had to remove them. The seat in the center of the machine gunner lifted along with the pad



47.

Special pallets, which should reduce the dynamic loads on the legs when the machine is undermined



48.

Machine-gun hatch



49.

Stand guy, fall on a fairly narrow platformochka middle, spinning will be clearly uncomfortable



50.

View from the roof of the car (by the way, the roof covering prevents slipping)



51.

The swivel for the machine gun is missing (either they forgot to put it on when transferring the car to the brigade, or the turret was made without it, which is strange at all)



52.



53.

This is how armored casings are attached. In the middle of the circle - lock the rotation of the shoulder strap



54.

The hatch in the open position is fixed after the delay of the flag



55.

Conclusion air inlet on the roof



56.

Bracket for multi-element antenna



57.

We turn to the cargo hold in the stern of the machine. It can be opened from three sides, but from behind it is possible only when removing the spare wheel. The wheel can only be lowered manually, there are no devices for lowering



58.

Cargo door on the left side of the machine



59.



60.

Inside view



61.

The canister comes in the kit, but the photo seems to be not native



62.

Spare parts for towing, which is also stored in the cargo hold



63.

In the compartment fits all the ammunition and raid backpacks paratroopers, but there is no room for ammunition. In the salon from ammunition you can take only what will be in the unloading vest directly on the fighter. Boxes with cartridges put just nowhere. It’s only if you shove it in packs in door niches, but there’s not much to fit



64.

Stands under weapon not in the car, it is necessary to hold it in hand, with a machine gun or a grenade launcher it is already very difficult to turn around. About taking AGS or large-caliber rifle is not even a question. It is extremely interesting what the way out of this situation was found by the military personnel of the countries where Iveco is operating.

According to the technical documentation, the hood is opened by two people who, having opened the latches, lift it on both sides. You can do it alone, in the front, but it requires a lot of effort, although the hood is plastic, but rather weighty



65.



66.



67.

View from the roof of the car



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69.



70.



71.

Let's walk around, see various trifles that are not included in the main story.
The same snow protection installed on the “Lynx” following the results of the first trial tests in Russia



72.

Bottom view from behind



73.

Bottom view front



74.

Bottom double



75.

Wheelbase front



76.

Wheel well with rear exhaust pipe



77.

The pipe is brought up in case of overcoming the water barrier ford



78.

The gap between the armored capsule and the cargo compartment



79.

The fuel cap is located at the stern of the vehicle.



80.

Mudguard rear



81.

Lubrication of door hinges is quite simple.



82.

Door lock deep recessed inside



83.

Side mirror



84.

Marking on bulletproof glass



85.



86.



87.

During operation, damaged the front and cracked the plastic hood



88.



89.

He asked about the need for loopholes on "Lynx". They said that loopholes would be useful when riding in a convoy, when the shelling starts, but they don’t see any vital need for them. They will do it - well, they will not do it - and all right.

I will sum up. The brigade received, as an experiment, two armored vehicles "Lynx", which are rarely used. Outside the roads they are practically not used. The main impressions of the operation will appear after the cars become regular units. This does not mean that the car was not tested at all (she does something in special forces in Solnechnogorsk from 2011 onwards, and they also drove her to Chebarkul for some reason), but in 10 the special forces brigade did not work with her .

The general opinion about the officers' cars is very mediocre, primarily because of the driving characteristics. Everyone wants to remove the automatic transmission. In second place on the wishes - an increase in the volume of transported payload. On the third - more space for the convenience of the crew and paratroopers. The pros note mine protection, soft driving on the highway, air conditioning.
The officers believe that the car would be good for convoys, any kind of police operations, like a commander’s or co-ordinated car. Replacing the STS “Tiger” with “Lynx” in special forces is puzzling, since Let the "Tiger" has no mine protection, air conditioning, but it is better in terms of off-road qualities and has a greater internal volume of the cabin.

My impressions. I have long wanted to feel the car in person and hear the opinions of not biased journalists about him, but the military, who directly operate this car. Since off-road on the “Lynx” did not have to drive, the main impressions were the convenience of the car. Dense internal layout - a consequence of increased body armor - of course, depressing. If the machine is operated as the same commander, then no difficulties arise, a lot of ammunition and ammunition do not need to carry. But if it is used as the only vehicle of a department / group, then the issue of small useful volume becomes the key. Is that on the roof of some trunk fence.

It would be necessary for the Ministry of Defense to already disclose cards, for which this armored car is purchased (establishing cooperation with Western countries, buying up technologies or something else), and the public has too many questions.
340 comments
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  1. GG2012
    +17
    15 September 2012 09: 18
    Nice and detailed reporting! Thanks to the author! +++
    1. +6
      16 September 2012 12: 36
      Quote: GG2012
      Nice and detailed reporting! Thanks to the author! +++

      Thanks to the author! Extra evidence of the lack of utility of these cars! negative
      One box machine is worth ....... negative
      1. +4
        16 September 2012 13: 21
        As if the author does not write about worthlessness. What notes in his LJ. He writes that he is misused and is not truly verified.
        1. +2
          16 September 2012 14: 40
          Quote: Pimply
          As if the author does not write about worthlessness.

          As such, a serious off-road performance check was not carried out, as far as I understood, there were only a few test drives. According to their results, the opinion about the car is bad:
          - slowly accelerates, which is critical when evacuating special forces groups
          - protectors are called unsuitable for off-road. Rubber soft, wear out quickly
          - when driving through the mud, the car constantly pulls into a rut, if it is deep, then the car sits on the bottom.
          Well, here's an example ...
          Yes, God bless him with the author! I rely on my opinion! Education allows you to do it! Automatic transmission covers all the advantages of mine protection. I looked at the engine compartment (photo from the roof), there is nothing for the conscript to do there! Repair is possible only in a specialized workshop.
          1. +4
            16 September 2012 17: 55
            Oh, damn it.

            Slowly accelerates any armored car. Yes, and behaves very problematic.

            http://k-a-r-d-e-n.livejournal.com/17643.html

            Read how the Tiger armored in the third class behaves.

            "At times, the wet forty-fifty centimeter snow was too tough for the Tiger."

            "Knee-deep mud and wet snow. The track turned out to be too narrow for our car, and it periodically drove into snowdrifts. Sometimes it skidded so that it moved half sideways.
            Now and then the rear doors themselves opened ...
            Climbing up on another hill, the driver turned off the engine ...
            That's all.
            She started up only with a "pusher". Fortunately for the people there was enough, and there was a slight bias. "
            "When driving on the highway, the car easily gave 120 km per hour, scaring away the overtaken cars. However, when braking, the euphoria from the flight was replaced by fear due to the intensive wobbling of the car due to incorrect operation of the brake system."

            About treads and more - read what I posted a little higher from a person who is actively involved in off-road trips. And he points to those moments in which the military were mistaken.
      2. +5
        16 September 2012 23: 43
        My dear nycsson!
        I recall my service as an ordinary in the autoworks in 1999-2000. I'd like to ask?
        Have you changed your "bochat" in the Urals in frosty weather? Do you know how to pull out an UAZ engine in 20 minutes, because you have already done it five times a week? Did you know that all normal cars have wheel alignment, and only Kraz "laptezhnik" has a roll-over and a divergence. Do you know how to make one of two cars? Have you tried to fix the standard heater of the Urals box? And the mare's wiring? And how do you like trophy Chechen solarium, the color of morning nigrol? WHAT CARS DO WE RIDE ON IN REAL LIFE? I would then pray for this Iveka. She will fulfill the combat mission assigned to her. And with an automatic transmission, to cope with the wounded. And on domestic trucks there is a PGU. Repaired?
        1. +1
          17 September 2012 00: 30
          Maybe at least you’re giving a couple of hot idiots here?
          1. with
            0
            17 September 2012 00: 52
            Quote: Pimply
            Maybe at least you’re giving a couple of hot idiots here?

            Pimpy, well, did they even sell a couple or help?)) bully
            1. +1
              17 September 2012 01: 03
              Italian as many as seven hundred wink
        2. curious
          +1
          17 September 2012 13: 30
          LION
          thanks for a bit of real life for some keyboard specialists
  2. biglow
    +6
    15 September 2012 09: 30
    good report, as you would expect. Only suitable as a command vehicle
    1. beech
      +9
      15 September 2012 12: 48
      a mixture of ultramodern and antediluvian !!! It’s easy to make comfort on the tiger and the price would not be there, in general, as usual, kickbacks !!
    2. s1н7т
      0
      16 September 2012 22: 23
      Command vehicle - for whom?
  3. Andrey64
    +11
    15 September 2012 09: 59
    Keywords: It would be necessary for the Ministry of Defense to already disclose cards, for which this armored car is purchased (establishing cooperation with Western countries, buying up technologies or something else), and the public has too many questions.
    1. Redpartyzan
      -2
      15 September 2012 10: 42
      Why then do tigers not buy? Explain.
      1. +1
        16 September 2012 12: 38
        Quote: Redpartyzan
        Why then do tigers not buy?

        Tigers are bought by the Ministry of Internal Affairs! And do not complain!
        1. +1
          16 September 2012 13: 22
          Pro do not complain

          http://k-a-r-d-e-n.livejournal.com/17643.html

          I recommend that you carefully read.
          1. 16
            16
            0
            22 September 2012 23: 28
            And what all the information is from Runet! Maybe you should listen to people who will serve them! And most importantly, not in the IDF!
        2. +1
          16 September 2012 13: 26
          complains, even like that, but AMZ presents new samples — I especially liked the tiger SPM-2m, it’s really something already !!!!!!!!!

          http://vitaly.livejournal.com/193316.html
          1. 0
            16 September 2012 13: 55
            SPM-2, as far as I know, has been around for a long time. The question is, it is just as beautiful in relation to the end user as his brother
            1. +2
              16 September 2012 18: 12
              no spm2 for a long time and M just appeared, there are mine arms (imported, etc., etc.)
              1. +1
                16 September 2012 18: 16
                Armchairs are already progress. The question is whether they will somehow manage to cope with national characteristics - build quality, for example, and constant dislike for the end user.
                1. +2
                  16 September 2012 19: 58
                  we have a fight
                  am
                  It is important for me that AMZ pulled itself up and made products that meet international standards, and the rest will wait, and Iveco should pull them up
                  although already pulled
                  1. +1
                    16 September 2012 20: 42
                    That spurred is indisputable.
          2. +1
            16 September 2012 14: 49
            Quote: Rustam
            complains how else,

            So you need to refine! Where is the interaction? And buying foreign production is not an option! hi
            1. +2
              16 September 2012 15: 04
              At the moment, this is a hole in five to seven years before the normal series. Somehow I don’t want to pay people for improvements
      2. +1
        16 September 2012 13: 21
        why the contract with the Moscow region for the purchase of 200 tiger-m with a 3 class of protection (it seems that the class should be specified)
  4. Brother Sarych
    +2
    15 September 2012 10: 36
    I did not think that he is so cramped! Something I do not think that if they are undermined, it will even be relatively safe there ...
    And the material is good - everything is very detailed and calmly shown ...
    1. -2
      15 September 2012 11: 33
      Something I do not think that if they are undermined, it will even be relatively safe there ...
      a well-fixed patient does not need anesthesia.
    2. +2
      15 September 2012 14: 34
      Guys didn’t know (s)
      http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/vehicles/iveco/press6.html
      1. Odessa
        +2
        15 September 2012 14: 46
        Pimply,
        Chic Link. 23 March 2009
        An Italian military vehicle was involved in the explosion of a car bomb! fellow
        Thank you, translate it yourself!
        1. +1
          15 September 2012 14: 50
          And then what? wink
          1. Odessa
            +2
            15 September 2012 14: 57
            Pimply,
            And then what?

            And then Google translator to help. And there will not be any difference with which to translate, from English, or Chinese. But here, when translating, you can get yesterday’s text, such as Please who can translate this phrase into Russian
            "
            Earlier, law enforcement officers in the Kizlyar district of Dagestan blocked a group of militants, during a clash one soldier was wounded, one was killed.
            This is another conversation. bully
            1. Yarbay
              +1
              16 September 2012 13: 44
              Quote: Odessa
              Please, who can translate this phrase into Russian

              already have a new masterpiece)))

              ** As a result three 120 mm mortar mines fell on the territory of boarding school No. 3 in Buinaksk, located on Lesnaya street. One from fallen shells exploded second no. ** - where is the third?)))
              1. Odessa
                +1
                16 September 2012 13: 50
                Yarbay,
                already have a new masterpiece)))

                ** As a result, three 120-mm mortar mines fell on the territory of boarding school No. 3 in Buinaksk, located on Lesnaya Street. One of the fallen shells exploded, the second is not. ** - where is the third?)))

                So yesterday it was the evil Tatar who wrote. Sam and probably fired wassat
                1. Yarbay
                  +1
                  16 September 2012 15: 55
                  He is the author of the news ???)))
        2. spender
          +2
          15 September 2012 14: 51
          Quote: Odessa
          Thank you, translate it yourself!

          Could rummage in the Chinese press and post the link, the hieroglyphs are more beautiful there laughing
          1. +10
            15 September 2012 14: 55
            So I sometimes use it. Google translate allows you to understand the basis of the text quite normally. Mokrushin, by the way, found a good comment in comments on the topic:

            “Apparently, people (the officer corps of the unit) do not understand what they are dealing with, have little experience in off-road driving. Or they don’t have any off-road“ roll-off ”at all.
            This can be judged by the groundless claims to the car.
            About a lot already said, but ..... I repeat.

            1 "accelerates slowly".
            The armored car and should not accelerate quickly.
            2 "The treads are said to be unsuitable for off-roading. The rubber is soft and wears out quickly."
            Protectors are normal - universal. The tread depth is a little too small - yes. If the drawing is discharged, they work better off-road, wear out quickly on highways and mountains. The pattern is dense - poor grip in mud, good wear resistance on asphalt and in the mountains. The softness of the tread sidewall is needed so that the rubber "flattens" better when the pressure in the wheels decreases. The contact patch of the wheel increases (the pressure on the ground decreases), the rubber becomes elastic - the grip of the wheel improves.

            3 "when driving through mud, the car constantly pulls into a rut"
            Reduce pressure in the wheels and will not pull anywhere. So pass it on - reduce the pressure))))
            4 "if you sat down on the bottom, then it's useless to try to get out on your own"
            Drive off road with incl. center lock. When it starts to sit down, turn on the interwheel (if any), back and change the trajectory of movement.
            5 "If you sat on the bottom, then trying to get out on your own is useless"
            Get out and do not. They’ll dig a rut even deeper. Immediately - a winch.
            Using a winch is also a science. I am sure that the drivers do not know even half of what you need to know about working with a winch.
            On the machine you presented, judging by the factory winding of the cable and the pristine purity of the winch lips, the winch has never been used.
            6 "bent one of the footpegs while driving off-road on a hill"
            The steps should be removed. They are needed only for well-fed officers who are not able to raise their legs to the threshold level. The threshold functionality ends here. It’s better to remove it beforehand, otherwise they will be quickly torn out of stumps, stones, etc.
            7 "Everyone wants to remove the automatic transmission"
            Automatic transmission forgives many mistakes of inexperienced drivers (read - conscripts) when driving off-road. RKPP - will not forgive. With a little training, it is possible with automatic transmission. "rock" the car.
            If there was in the transfer case, in addition to raising, lowering, blocking, the transmission shutdown function (as in the LR Defender, for example), would remove the towing problem. "
            1. Odessa
              +5
              15 September 2012 15: 04
              Pimply,
              So I sometimes use it. Google translate allows you to understand the basis of the text quite normally.

              So I would immediately post it in Russian. By the way, an interesting publication +.
              1. +5
                15 September 2012 15: 13
                I do not like to post raw translations. And to translate normally - laziness 8)))

                By the way, I’ll add five cents from myself - all heavy armored vehicles move slowly
                1. Odessa
                  +2
                  15 September 2012 15: 18
                  Pimply,
                  I do not like to post raw translations. And to translate normally - laziness 8)))

                  You can’t please it directly. You don’t post the raw, translate laziness. Then consider the illustrations. smile
                  1. +2
                    15 September 2012 15: 22
                    Yes, I already saw enough of them in the original post 8)
                    1. Odessa
                      +2
                      15 September 2012 15: 31
                      And why is there such an emphasis on the step with a relatively low machine. Interesting during the test, did someone have hematomas under it from the knee?
                      Try to jump into it quickly, equivalent to running with obstacles.
                      1. +2
                        15 September 2012 15: 34
                        It is worth noting that Mokrushin has a remark that the original step is more convenient. This was added at the request of the Russians
                      2. Odessa
                        +4
                        15 September 2012 15: 38
                        Pimply,
                        This was added at the request of the Russians

                        It’s good that it’s not wooden, from fiberboard, it’s cheaper for the budget, it would cost laughing
                      3. +1
                        15 September 2012 15: 46
                        You know, I fear that it would be more expensive
                      4. Odessa
                        +2
                        15 September 2012 15: 52
                        Pimply,
                        You know, I fear that it would be more expensive

                        Is a wooden step more expensive than a metal one?
                        This is for the mood. During the test, mahavniks found out that the doors are strong, do not fall off laughing
                      5. +6
                        15 September 2012 16: 07
                        Oh, Sufa. Remember, remember. One week in this typewriter I was blown up 5 times. Thank God, the charges were low-powered - the machine, de facto, was not sharpened against mines. Her engine still sometimes slowed downhill - but not much.
                        Magavniki - reckless I recall a couple of their tricks ...

                        Now they kind of introduce such a beauty
                      6. warrior
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 18: 43
                        Greetings
                        Can you talk about this colossus in more detail? Our military police and anti-terrorists seem to have bought the same thing.
                      7. +3
                        16 September 2012 19: 28
                        Sandcat. Co-production of the Israeli kibbutz Plasan and Oshkosh Corporation. That is, the initial development of Plasan, and Oshkosh connected later. Based on the Ford F-Series chassis. First time demonstrated in the 2005 year. It is used, in particular, by the Tzahal and the police.


                        SandCat reservation system using advanced complex ceramic materials was developed by Plasan (organized in the 1983 year in the kibbutz of the same name). This made it possible to obtain crew protection from improvised explosive devices (IEDs) of the 4 level according to the STANAG standard, as well as ballistic protection of the 3 + level and mine protection of the 2 level.

                        Your got 25 machines, if not mistaken. This, apparently, in the lighter version - there are several levels of booking.

                        There is that version that you have. There is a plus version - there are eight people.




                        There is an even more advanced version of Oshkosh.




                      8. 0
                        16 September 2012 19: 40
                        kibbutzim is cool.

                        Better tell me the composition of the attachments on the Merkava tower --- especially the blue one. And what kind of modification. But I'm confused.
                      9. +2
                        16 September 2012 20: 30
                        Andrey, are you trolling? wink You know very well that in tanks I’m not as special as you.

                        Secondly, it is Merkava Mk-4M ..
                        Blue is the elements of "Trophy".



                        By the way, little blue - in the IDF color training. Apparently, either training charges or special blocks were put in order to prevent injuries.


                        This little thing is an element of BSU.

                        Nearby is a panoramic sight.


                        Photos - from maneuvers in the Golan Heights in April 7 2011 year.
                      10. +1
                        16 September 2012 20: 46
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Andrey, are you trolling?

                        I? How can you think so.
                        Quote: Pimply
                        that in tanks I’m not so special

                        Maybe in tanks, but not Merkavah. By him there is no normal data.


                        the blue trophy element --- what exactly? doesn’t look like a launcher.
                        And it’s precisely this part that interests me --- where are the blocks of radars, from above, to the left-round one, is also the radar? Where are the blocks for detecting laser radiation.
                      11. +1
                        16 September 2012 21: 21
                        Andrei, I’m going to get together and make what I dig up in Hebrew and so on. For now, a little-known video for you is shot down on various types of missiles, including RPGs.
                      12. +1
                        16 September 2012 21: 31
                        Thanks in advance. And the very last one is this monograph. And Merkava is now the most dynamically developing tank.

                        in the video --- I don’t see traces of anti-munition.
                      13. tankist401
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 21: 39
                        Well, in fact, the question is what shoot? Well, as you know, the secret thing ... one thing I can say is the infantry around the tank survives
                      14. +1
                        16 September 2012 21: 45
                        And there, apparently, there is not one, but something like a fine fraction enough.
                      15. tankist401
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 21: 49
                        I repeat ... the infantry does not suffer. and then I can’t say because I don’t know
                      16. +1
                        16 September 2012 21: 59
                        Raphael claims the likelihood of any infantry defeat 1%.
                      17. tankist401
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 00
                        well this is with the system
                      18. +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 02
                        About that and speech, in general
                      19. DIMS
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 21: 37
                        This is what I wrote about. Low Speed ​​Obsolete ATGMs
                      20. tankist401
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 21: 41
                        in the Gaza Strip twice repelled Cornet E
                      21. DIMS
                        0
                        16 September 2012 21: 43
                        Why not 200 times?
                      22. tankist401
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 21: 49
                        because 200 times it was shot by no one from the Gaza Strip. in fact, in the second Lebanese company, without a trophy system, hitting the tanks was only 0.5 percent ... they decided to remove them too ... and tell me ... how do you need to drop the tank so that it will be damaged 200 times before the threat goes interview to Allah?
                      23. +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 00
                        There were three starts. Judging by the text of the messages, the latter was an ATGM, I don’t know about the second. It was said very vaguely. Cornets?
                      24. tankist401
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 02
                        three starts on video. and I’m telling you about those that were not on the field and on the border, and yes, considering that I’m a reservist, we are as if aware of what was going on tanks recently
                      25. +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 14
                        I’m on the border and I’m not talking about the video. There were three starts in Gaza, from what was going on in the press. Two - in 2011, and one - on the first of August of this year. Last year, the first was designated as an RPG rocket, the second - somehow indistinctly. By the fact that figuli on the first of August - til nun-tet, without brand designation.
                      26. tankist401
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 15
                        Well, why merge everything into the press? maybe military censorship has worked .. I'm not up to date with such matters ... I only know what the brig’s team said
                      27. DIMS
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 11
                        Who will give them the Cornet? Rather, "Fagot" with 113, or even 111 missiles - these things, like mud, are on every BMP-2.
                      28. tankist401
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 13
                        hmm ... as it turned out give. It does not depend on your or my desire. why don't Hezbbalah fit them through Egypt? Well, this is only one route of these missiles. the Syrians have them and have them at Hizbbalah why not share them with Hamas
                      29. DIMS
                        0
                        16 September 2012 22: 16
                        Yes, because at Hizbbalah they are in single copies, and the Syrians will no longer give.
                      30. tankist401
                        0
                        16 September 2012 22: 18
                        did you count them yourself or maybe post them? =)
                      31. +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 18
                        Well, not entirely in isolated ones, and after the war they drastically updated their arsenal. And they could give in order to evaluate the new protection system - how reliable it is.
                      32. DIMS
                        0
                        16 September 2012 22: 26
                        Looks not very, if not a single installation has not been destroyed and captured.
                      33. tankist401
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 29
                        to capture the trophy installation chtol? how do you imagine it ?????
                      34. DIMS
                        0
                        16 September 2012 22: 34
                        "Kornetovskaya". This fool weighs 20 with a penny kg, you can't run with such a lot.
                      35. tankist401
                        0
                        16 September 2012 22: 36
                        Cornet installation? Yes, not only captured after launch ... but before ... but also in the boxes where the sending port is written =) but let's not discuss it here
                      36. DIMS
                        0
                        16 September 2012 22: 38
                        On the rocket boxes. Saw already.
                      37. +2
                        16 September 2012 22: 43
                        As well as the rockets themselves. And the number was given. As well as installation. But for you this does not serve as evidence. The question is what serves. I think that even if you were in the tank in which the cornet would hit, you would say - I do not believe
                      38. DIMS
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 51
                        Everything is very simple. "Cornet" complex of the second generation. And "Trophy" gives target designation to the launcher. Judging by your declared frequency of use of "Cornets" on tanks, you should have collected mountains of debris from installations
                      39. 0
                        16 September 2012 23: 08
                        From what I know, after the Trophy installations on the Merkava 4, there were three missiles destroyed. Of these, one is declared as an RPG. According to the "tankman 401", who, apparently, was a reservist of this brigade and worked for the four, their brigade commander said about two cornetes shot down. None of this contradicts the available information.

                        There were 24 penetrations in Lebanon with 53 hits and 43 defeats. During a visit to Moscow, a Hezbollah representative spoke highly of the fighting qualities of the cornets that Hezbollah used against the IDF.
                      40. +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 29
                        But where exactly? Not captured in Gaza or in Lebanon?
                      41. tankist401
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 32
                        back to that * how do you need to score on a tank and where you need to leave it alone * what would happen ?! =)
                      42. DIMS
                        0
                        16 September 2012 22: 34
                        And what, captured?
                      43. tankist401
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 36
                        they didn’t capture anything
                      44. DIMS
                        0
                        16 September 2012 22: 00
                        I have a strong suspicion that now any ATGM is called "Cornet-E"
                      45. tankist401
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 03
                        why so. although it is your right. how they are called tankers is one thing, but as they are called pros, who then collect fragments in order to know what is in the arsenal of the enemy, they hardly made a mistake
                      46. +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 04
                        I say what I read. No ATGM names were mentioned. But on the other hand, someone may know more. I will not point fingers.
                      47. tankist401
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 05
                        for example a brigade commander who was following the teachings of a reserve company ... maybe he is in the know?
                      48. +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 15
                        Definitely. I don’t argue, I just clarify what information passed. What about Ynet, that the rest had little information.
                      49. Director
                        0
                        17 September 2012 17: 46
                        looks like a divorce that knocks these shells bully
                      50. tankist401
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 21: 34
                        the radar is an oval under the blue box of 4 and they stand around the perimeter of the tower
                      51. +1
                        16 September 2012 21: 42
                        Quote: tankist401
                        it's an oval

                        I thought it was radio-transparent plastic? And the radar itself under it?
                        And what about the roof? A panoramic sight? But no holes are visible.
                        And is there really a photo of the trophy’s combat element? Of what is being shot back. What is its weight and dimensions - if not a secret of course.
                      52. tankist401
                        +2
                        16 September 2012 21: 46
                        look carefully at the links of Odessa there is well shown combat elements. radar under the oval. panoramic sight from the right (on the right hand from the protruding fighter in the photo) gunner’s sight from the left. I don’t know the weight and dimensions .... but the video shows that it’s not a big deal. to stand and catch them during a rocket shot I had no desire =)
                      53. +2
                        16 September 2012 21: 54
                        The antennas are also involved - the four that are located at the edges. Where there is a blue slicker, apparently - the active part. Blue is an educational color, which means protection "from the fool" and accidents.


                        Here you can see well how it should be.

                        Little is known about the combat element; this is one of the main secrets of the system. Experts suggest that this is something like a fraction. In any case, the goal, in theory, is struck directionally due to kinetics. Where the black part is something like a membrane, as I understand it. She erupts when fired.


                        Gray is Trophy.


                        And here is Hets Dorban, aka Iron Fist.

                        Ask a man over there. He seems to have served or is serving in the 401
                      54. tankist401
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 21: 59
                        the gray part that you called mimbrana is the back ... it unfolds when fired. Hets Dorban is about the same but not that. I'm not sure but she doesn’t close the circle of fire, so to speak. the trophy tells me where the shot was fired from and I press the button to turn the gun there with the ballistic ready for me in advance. that is, the tank has nothing to comb out
                      55. +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 06
                        I told Andrei - I’m not an 8 specialist in tanks) I saw a breakthrough in some frames - that means I’ve recognized myself. Yes, I heard about automatic aiming - so they removed that blasphemy that shot the first time, as far as I remember.
                      56. tankist401
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 08
                        only one of three cases escaped. then the tankers (conscripts) got caught up for it but the blasphemy was destroyed by return fire
                      57. +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 02
                        Yes, I kind of understood everything from what you can tell.
                        Quote: Pimply
                        type of membrane, as I understand it. She erupts when fired.

                        This is the main thing, but I myself did not think of it.

                        The last clarification, that would be without errors - this blotch.
                      58. tankist401
                        +2
                        16 September 2012 22: 06
                        but these guys are cool stuff =) such tactical tricks are scrolled with it =))) but let's say ... this is a 360-degree camera
                      59. +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 16
                        I love cool things. Will there be no more details?
                      60. tankist401
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 19
                        It works in a slightly different range from the camera shooter, works at 360. I want to brag about the details but I can’t =)
                      61. +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 22
                        Look, the shooter’s camera is in that drawer, over which the tanker's head is sticking out, with wings.
                      62. +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 20
                        This photo shows in detail. Down there - mounted mine protection
                      63. +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 55
                        And this is not a device for self-digging? Like on Soviet tanks. It somehow doesn’t pull on the mine, why is it there.
                      64. +1
                        16 September 2012 23: 10
                        Nope. Where I found it was the anti-fish. Hinged anti-mine armor. Of those that were filmed on a bomb exploded in Gaza in 2002, "troika" - do you remember the story?
                      65. 0
                        16 September 2012 23: 17
                        Quote: Pimply
                        filmed on a troika that exploded in a land mine in Gaza in 2002 - do you remember the story?

                        I don’t remember. Or rather I don’t know.
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Mounted mine protection.

                        honestly --- what does she do on NLD and what does it especially help, especially when I detonate a landmine I can’t imagine. I would understand on the bottom, but not on the lower frontal part.
                      66. +1
                        16 September 2012 23: 28
                        And she, as I understand it, goes under the bottom.

                        http://www.waronline.org/analysis/merkava.htm

                        Here in detail about the situation with a land mine, in Russian.

                        About the self-digging knife - I don’t know, ask the 401 tanker, he knows for sure.
                      67. +1
                        17 September 2012 00: 04
                        It is clearly seen that it is located not on the bottom, but on the third slope of the forehead of the hull (VLD, a segment of an almost vertical part, and NLD)

                        As for the landmine - I read it, it honestly looks more like an attempt to exaggerate the landmine’s abilities (artisanal cumulative, without facing and casting it doesn’t really give) even with a mass of 100 kg that steel plate would not have helped. An explosion would still basically a shit.
                        But here the weight of the tower in 22 tons interested me.
                      68. 0
                        17 September 2012 00: 11
                        Yes, unfortunately - do not exaggerate. There were a couple of cases when they planted very big fools. Both Merkava and Dubi - healthy D-9 armored flew merrily.
                      69. 0
                        17 September 2012 00: 20
                        Well, I don’t minimize weight. But only complexity and cumulativeness. There is no particular sense - all the same there should be a good layer of land above the landmine, and from which there is a secondary road - and so that it wouldn’t sprinkle under people and cars until the moment.

                        and why use C-4? casting a funnel from a tol is easier and better than removing it from plastid. All the difficulties - it's easier to add a couple bags of ammonium nitrate.
                      70. +1
                        17 September 2012 00: 28
                        They used a lot of tricks. Somehow there was even a donkey.

                        The main explosives in our area are made from fertilizers. And C4 - apparently lucky, stolen or mined.

                        At the expense of secondary roads - then the UAV was not special. There were sections of roads that were used only by the military - to drive to the checkpoint, or only the tank constantly runs there. After the active use of UAVs and cameras, the number of such cases was reduced, in fact, to zero.
                      71. 0
                        17 September 2012 00: 48
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Once there was even a donkey

                        Donkey is cool.
                        Just reading that description, it just creeps in thinking that there wouldn’t be C-4, stages over the home-made cumulative and 20-30 mm Merkava 3 armor plate that could withstand the explosion of 100 kg of explosives.
                      72. +1
                        17 September 2012 01: 05
                        With that ambush, they really tried. Then there were several similar cases - always a huge amount of explosives. From 50 kg and more. Leave when we arrived at 2002 in Shchem (Nablus), they were going to blow us up with a truck with explosives. The tank noticed, fired - the earth shook for a very long time.
                      73. tankist401
                        0
                        19 September 2012 01: 26
                        there was a case in Lebanon. the tank was blown up by a mine. the shooter died (he was blocked in the tower and had no time to evacuate and he bled) the remaining crew members survived. According to experts, the tank was blown up on a 300-kilogramm high-explosive mine
                      74. 0
                        19 September 2012 01: 34
                        Quote: tankist401
                        300 Hillbomb Mine

                        most likely one extra toe --30 kg still did not go where. Or it exploded meters in 10 from the tank.

                        Is there a photo of that tank by any chance?
                      75. tankist401
                        0
                        19 September 2012 17: 02
                        read subsection * wrecked tanks with killed crew members * read June 24th. http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/history/2nd-lebanon-war/acv-losses/. no pictures .. sorry
                      76. 0
                        20 September 2012 00: 34
                        I read a lot of things there, and how to shoot down one A4 with Skye 50 they launched MANPADS. But that’s okay.

                        300-350 kg in 3-6 meters in front of the tank, for 10 all the same too much damage .. Otherwise, on such a charge it has exactly all the tracks on the cliff ..
                      77. tankist401
                        0
                        19 September 2012 01: 28
                        I don’t know anything about digging knives .... we do not conduct trench wars as I understand it ... we are either attacking ... or we are dead. so it’s not advisable to dig tanks in our conditions. I have never seen such a device on our tanks. D-9 assigned to tank companies are engaged in this.
                      78. +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 16
                        No, not this 8)) This is a camera of 360 degrees, it is clearly visible on the video - for example, the same discovery
                      79. Odessa
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 21: 04
                        Pimply,
                        There will be time to look.
                        Trophy - RAFAEL's Anti-tank Missile Defense System / מערכת מעיל רוח של רפא"ל
                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp7VXfvzjr8&feature=player_detailpage
                      80. +1
                        16 September 2012 21: 14
                        Yes, I saw it. Thanks Esther
                      81. tankist401
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 21: 32
                        bottom photo. Well, at least I do not believe that the photo was taken on the exercises in 2011. most likely I don’t see the photo from the museum expanent of the panoramic sight in the photo.
                      82. +1
                        16 September 2012 21: 57
                        Photo where the tank is full. Isn't the camera in the round part?
                      83. tankist401
                        +2
                        16 September 2012 22: 00
                        I would understand what kind of photo in question
                      84. +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 09


                        That's about it. As I understand it, the radar is an oval, that is, an octagon, a blue box covers the active element. And the back, the campaign, is also somehow involved
                      85. +1
                        16 September 2012 20: 46
                        And Andrew. Leave the tank ignition for another topic wink There are cars. Let's talk about typewriters 8)
                      86. Odessa
                        +3
                        16 September 2012 20: 55
                        Kars,
                        Here, I personally asked you, ours. This is the active defense of Trophy. Look for it on it.
                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2efCYei_FDQ
                        TROPHY FOR MERKAVA 4.flv
                      87. +1
                        16 September 2012 21: 08
                        Thank you for your personal participation. Because I knew the trophy. But the composition of the elements remained unclear.
                      88. Odessa
                        +2
                        16 September 2012 21: 13
                        Kars,
                        Wait, now register and come to the site.
                      89. tankist401
                        +2
                        16 September 2012 21: 25
                        good evening ... I'm certainly not special ... but still. What interests you in the trophy?
                      90. warrior
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 22: 22
                        Thank you.
                        Googled our resources. In the armies (military police) of four guards - from a "dense" tower, from a tower with a shooter, the one with flashing lights and transport for 7 people. What the MVR has is a mystery, most likely only what is in the photo.
                      91. +2
                        16 September 2012 22: 25
                        Interesting. And so bought - 25 pieces? Or later expanded the order?
                      92. warrior
                        +1
                        17 September 2012 14: 44
                        HES Non-matching of official numbers is coming out. In the Bulgarian media, they write about three different delivery parties - for 15, for 17 and for 8 cars, respectively. This is not 25. Usually consider 25 in the army (MP) and may be 15 in the MIA.
            2. +6
              15 September 2012 17: 00
              Pimply,
              “Apparently, people (the officer corps of the unit) do not understand what they are dealing with, have little experience in off-road driving. Or they don’t have any off-road“ roll-off ”at all.

              I agree to all 100%, on all points.
              In Russia, it is full of amateurs, SUVs and off-road, knowing how to break an SUV in a day, with knowledge of the matter. And enjoy it. The debate that automatic transmission is worse than manual transmission is akin to religious. However, hands growing from the right place are an option not included in the package of delivery of any SUV in the world. And if you trust an idiot with a crystal h *** n, then he will not only cut himself ....
              An interesting pattern: if an offroad fan has the means, then he will even take a UAZ screw and it will cost like a Mercedes and look like he has seen dirt and logs.
              This I mean that the machine in the photo looks like a front one, for a nasalnik. They bent the footboard .... No, of course there is a kind of off-road vehicles called proudly - "glamorous zip for show-off", but I did not think that MO needed such. The car looks like rolled out of the car. Even the paint is unmoved. I would not be surprised if they always sat in a clean driver's seat.
              But if ours still creeps into the mud on the thresholds ... In the story with Iveco, I often remember an anecdote about the lumberjacks who were given the Japanese chainsaw ....
              Of the reasonable arguments against the Lynx, I accept only - the tightness of the cabin, the inability to climb from the rear seats forward and vice versa. (evacuation of the driver in ammunition, through the commander's place) Everything else from the area: "you don't like cats? You just don't know how to cook them!"
              1. +4
                15 September 2012 17: 30
                Yes, you just don’t know how to cook them winked As for the tightness of the cabin - unfortunately, a common topic for armored vehicles
              2. +2
                15 September 2012 22: 04
                you are right about the experience of staff. I’ve been practicing auto sports since childhood. For the last 9-10 years I have been doing SUVs - I tried to assemble an UAZ (expensive and the result was not the one I wanted), I moved to NIVU. In principle, I have my opinion on the AKP or INC - in the conduct of hostilities the automatic transmission is much more attractive (the ability to control a / m in case of injuries and injuries, you can put behind the wheel, in principle, any body that has a rather mediocre idea of ​​controlling a / m) when I got a knee injury I felt the pleasure of the machine - the main thing is to add cars, BUT !!!!!!!!!! we are far from Germany and not the states. We do not have in the army a bunch of mechanics and technicians who rush to check and repair on the first whistle. We do not have a bunch of spare parts and probably not enough cars will be in the units so that one breaks down and takes the other. special forces need equipment on the principle of a Kalashnikov assault rifle SIMPLY, RELIABLE, WITH MAXIMUM PROTECTION and ADAPTED TO LOCAL CONDITIONS (whether it be the CAUCASUS or KAMCHATKA) we don’t have to travel to Africa. It was a bit lucky to have a look at the OMERONIAN variant with the OMERONIAN variant all the same, you need to take practice - climbed onto the slope — stole — almost made up my ears — drove it for a long time — but put it on its own and drove out without any help - BEAST MACHINE. At the expense of LYNX - repair at the plant, crampedness, let’s say so mediocre passability (judging by the rollers of comparative tests), I would not go to it
                1. 0
                  16 September 2012 02: 01
                  Understand you. Rollers are different in class of booking a car. They are trying to make 6A out of the Tiger - it doesn’t come out yet, the car has not yet been tested. Have you ever seen the difference between a conventional or lightly armored vehicle and a heavily armored vehicle?

                  There are many and often remember about the Kalashnikov assault rifle, they just don’t remember that for a long time in the world automatic machines have been made not inferior in reliability, superior in accuracy, ergonomics and materials. So will we live in the past? Then the special forces need to distribute the mosquito - even more reliable.
                  1. 0
                    18 September 2012 21: 42
                    and by the way - some people take it (change the fore-end - in Izhevsk they’ll even order it from carbon fiber) the optics are really better than German - the quality of the trunks is beyond any discussion - and we get a good tool for a distance of 1200-1500 meters
                    1. -1
                      18 September 2012 22: 57
                      The quality of the trunks of Izhmash - beyond any discussion? Nude, right. Look - somewhere in the net the resource of modern trunks was laid out. Learn a lot of interesting things. But we won’t talk about cartridges at all. Strongly you are about 1200-1500. Very much. I was already impressed.
                2. 0
                  17 September 2012 00: 03
                  zadorin1974,
                  So after all, they began to introduce outsourcing in terms of repairing equipment. A hedgehog it’s clear that for a year you won’t make golden hands out of conscripts. And not every contractor has an inclination.
                  The captain must have visited me obviously, but I believed that absolutely everything can be broken. (and even a sample) Break with a grace, and with savoring. Here you stand for the domestic auto industry, but in real life that car is good, which is new and run-in. My friend is selling Kamazami, so he told the Ipichem story about how Russian men drove KAMAZ to RAMA. (Truck Tractor) HOW ??? - FIG knows, but everyone is thrilled.
                  Foreign cars are not UFOs, you can fix it in the conditions of Russia.
                  1. +2
                    18 September 2012 20: 21
                    dear dmitrich, the problem is not that they are specially lame, but that the built-in parameters of the strength of spare parts in most foreign cars are not for Russia - the relatives are zhelezhyak and bend and break; a 1963 lathe with a hammering chuck or a milling cutter on which, in addition to cutting the corner 75, there is nothing to do and what is even more depressing - replacing the clutch disc on the UAZ, beginning with the arming - when I arrived at the repair zone, perfume (recruited for a special call - college graduates "auto mechanic", under the leadership of the division's auto service department and other highly gifted people, pushed the box for two days and when asked about centering the disc they made round eyes and looked at me like an idiot - youth and ensure the purchase of the latest repair equipment
                    1. +1
                      18 September 2012 22: 58
                      Golden words you said. Gold. About what you need to start learning normally.
                    2. 0
                      19 September 2012 12: 13
                      zadorin1974, totally agree. Samo-lich used the machine of the third Reich, exported ....
                      I agree with the fact that modern cars are made from the fact that they live for several years under warranty, and then it’s easier to buy a new one ... (in Europe, any with America. Well, it’s not profitable for them to make a car forever)
                      I share your point of view regarding production. In the owl time, I abandoned the fields with UAZs in favor of an old American. And what is surprising; it is not only maintainable in Russia, but also rides! Old, beaten, who participated in "pokatushki and expeditions", and asks for bread and throw it a pity, but the main thing is that he is going. And he gets over, if necessary, by Russian men. This I mean: a thing made with high quality - lasts a long time.
              3. REPA1963
                +1
                15 September 2012 22: 35
                That is, you want to say that we have asphalt all around? Have you tried to move 170 kilometers from Moscow to Vladimir Region. eg.
                1. +2
                  16 September 2012 23: 52
                  Oh, Kamrad REPA1963, I have a Fazenda in the Vladimrian province. A couple of kilometers on the dirt road. A lot of bolts left on it ...
            3. +2
              15 September 2012 17: 07
              It always happens when, instead of the usual, albeit old, but reliable, they try to sneak in an unnecessary or inappropriate thing. You say that it is not convenient, but in response to you: "get up with cancer" (you have the wrong height, it’s your clothes that are tight, etc.), you say that you have poor permeability, and in response: you do not operate correctly, you must pass the paver or lay asphalt. There is no place? You don't need it in a modern war - everything will be brought to you ... That is, this is not a machine (or other thing) that is not suitable, but we are dark, not intelligent and do not know how to exploit. So let's give us "hammers" instead of "microscopes"! I especially liked the maintainability in the field! Will you say that soon in our forests and fields there will be a ramified network of repair bases from the manufacturing plant, and an unreasonable soldier has nothing to do with his nose into a miracle technique? After all, they are compared with the experience of operating other machines, and not with an empty space. It reminds me of the persuasion of network marketing managers who offer to buy Their product instead of the usual ... The main thing is to convince!
              1. +1
                15 September 2012 17: 32
                Respected. Iveco is used for many years in combat conditions. Bigger than the Tiger, and much more extreme. Yes, when a new one is brought in instead of a cozy and old one, retraining is difficult and inconvenient. Why teach a computer if you can count in a column, right?
                1. REPA1963
                  0
                  15 September 2012 22: 37
                  Where and in what combat conditions?
                  1. +1
                    16 September 2012 02: 07
                    Afghan, for example. We bought ten countries for the yuz. Inland both southern countries such as Spain and fairly northern British with Norwegians use
            4. Mahamont
              +2
              15 September 2012 19: 46
              In the hands of an experienced driver, and the Chinese will pass for the tank. Checked.
    3. -3
      16 September 2012 12: 39
      Quote: Brother Sarich
      I did not think that he is so cramped!

      Well, this is most likely its plus and not minus! There will be nowhere to fly in the explosion!
  5. +2
    15 September 2012 10: 38
    An excellent replacement for the commander UAZ, but very expensive. I wonder how much the bumper replacement will cost. The Ministry of Defense got a lot of money to keep in good condition all the cars that the army will purchase (and they are going to purchase more than 3000). To replace the Tiger does not roll. These are different machines, designed to perform different tasks. In its niche, it is a good car. Escort collones, staff car.
    1. +1
      15 September 2012 12: 48
      Quote: sergey69
      An excellent replacement for the commander UAZ, but very expensive.

      The cost of one Lynx car is 20 million rubles. And not any new technologies that Lynx and I received.
      Further, the Lynx has:
      1. Mine protection STANAG 4569 level 2 (detonation of high-explosive anti-tank mines (charge mass 6 kg BB).
      2. Ballistic protection STANAG 4569 level 3 (armor-piercing bullet Bofors Carl Gustaf FFV, another designation AP M993 (core WC) cartridge 7,62 mm x 51 at a distance of 30 meters at a speed of meeting 930 m / s (bullet FFV AP or M993 (USA) cartridge 7,62 mm x 51 NATO, bullet weight 8,4 g, heart Nick - tungsten carbide, impact speed - 930 m/s, energy 3,3 kj).

      For comparison, GOST R 50963-96 (in Russia there is no GOST for mine protection, therefore we take GOST for ballistic (bulletproof) protection):

      1. Protection class 5. Dragunov sniper rifle (SVD)
      During the tests, the following is used: cartridge (57-Н-323С) 7,62mm, bullet (LPS) with a steel non-heat-strengthened core, mass 9,6gr., Speed ​​820 - 840mm from a distance 5-10m (energy 3,2 ÷ 3,4 kg mJ, pulse / sec).
      Protection class 5. Kalashnikov assault rifle sample 1947g. Modified (AKM)
      During the tests, the following is used: cartridge (57-H-231) 7,62mm, bullet (PS) with a steel heat-strengthened core, weight 7,9gr., Speed ​​710 - 740mm from distance 5-10m (energy 1,94 ÷ 2,1 kJ, pulse 5,6 kJ, pulse 5,8 kJ, pulse XNUMX kJ; / sec).
      2. 6 protection class. Dragunov sniper rifle (SVD)
      During the tests, the following is used: cartridge (7-БЗ-3) 7,62mm, bullet (B-32) with a special core, weight 10,4gr, speed 800 - 835mm from distance 5-10m (energy 3,3 ÷ 3,6 kJ, pulse 8,32 kJ, pulse 8,7 kJ, pulse XNUMX kJ, kg m / s).

      Thus, comparing the requirements of STANAG 4569 and GOST R 50963-96, we can conclude that bulletproof protection according to STANAG 4569 level 3 does not correspond to bulletproof protection according to GOST R 50963-96 protection class 6, rather it corresponds to 5 class.
    2. +3
      15 September 2012 15: 14
      With the hood there is one feature. Such hoods are specially made plastic - they better disperse the shock wave
  6. -1
    15 September 2012 11: 25
    Worse than you would like, better than there is.
  7. -1
    15 September 2012 11: 36
    Plastic hood !? This is a joke!?!? A short burst of soot and arrived? To get an armored car.
    1. 0
      15 September 2012 14: 35
      Not a joke. He better extinguishes the blast wave - flies away
  8. not good
    +1
    15 September 2012 12: 57
    As a drawback, you can note a non-standard battery, you can’t replace the first one you get, but you won’t start a car with a pusher in a pusher. In combat, the corpse is 100%
  9. 0
    15 September 2012 12: 58
    In general, we don’t need lynxes, except for command. And that command will not reach the unit. On the off-road, the lynx will not pass, you can lay asphalt in wartime with the help of our curved arms! The only plus is mine protection and nothing more. Yes, send to tiger production plant and make and make our Tiger better. Sewn for the gunman from above, what kind of protection sheets are these, but I won’t be surprised at their penetration of GS-18. No speed, passability zero, why do we need such a machine?
  10. 0
    15 September 2012 13: 37
    [media = http: //youtu.be/Kx7gNPYubkg]
  11. +3
    15 September 2012 13: 42


    On the issue of cross


    1. +2
      15 September 2012 14: 36
      You are comparing the wrong cars. 6A, which cannot be brought to mind in any way, compare. That Tiger, which joyfully dissects on the set, is not provided with mine protection.
      1. +2
        15 September 2012 18: 00
        Quote: Pimply
        You are comparing the wrong machines. 6A, which can not be brought to mind in any way, compare

        Lynx does not have 6 protection.
        And then, what does it have to do with it?
        It's about cross, clearance, overhangs, etc.
        In training a demonstration demonstration of equipment at the Nizhny Tagil-2011 weapons exhibition, an Italian armored car crashed while overcoming one of the obstacles, and the Tiger successfully overcame everything and offered the Italian "brother" technical assistance, which the owners of the Italian car "modestly" and politely rejected .
        The Lynx was evacuated from the Russian Ural highway. In the course of a real demonstration show for Lynx (IVECO LMV M65), soil was poured before some obstacles, and the most difficult of them was a machine, so that it would not have occurred such an embarrassment in front of guests and potential customers, prudently bypassed. And the audience saw this whole “picture in colors” immediately after successfully overcoming all the obstacles with the serial “Tiger”, who arrived from the troops to participate in the show.
        Read more: http://www.arms-expo.ru/049057054048124050054050054054.html
        1. +2
          15 September 2012 18: 10
          The lynx has a STANAG 4569 level 3, which, according to the statements of the Moscow Region, is in accordance with the Russian 6A in basic indicators. There will not be full matches, since the test systems are slightly different.

          And now the question is - which Tiger overcame the obstacles? There are a dozen of models. Iveco is trying to contrast the still-tested Tiger 6A. And he has all the advantages of slowly but surely leaving the forest. Amer about armored Hammer already stumbled
          1. 0
            15 September 2012 18: 37
            Quote: Pimply
            Lynx has a STANAG 4569 level 3, which, according to the statements of the Moscow Region, is in accordance with the Russian 6A in terms of basic indicators


            And you carefully read the standards (at least in foreign, at least in Russian, you can on Wikipedia, or you can still where), and compare:
            armor-piercing bullet Bofors Carl Gustaf FFV, another designation AP M993 (core WC) cartridge 7,62 mm x 51 at a distance of 30 meters at a speed of meeting 930 m / s (bullet FFV AP or M993 (USA) cartridge 7,62 mm x 51 NATO, bullet weight 8,4 g, core - tungsten carbide, impact speed - 930 m/s, energy 3,3 kJ

            и
            cartridge (7-BZ-3) 7,62mm, bullet (B-32) with a special core, weight 10,4g., speed 800 - 835mm from distance 5-10m (energy 3,3 ÷ 3,6 kJ, pulse 8,32 x / mNXX kg / s) kgNXX kg / sec)
            1. 0
              15 September 2012 18: 42
              I read. I repeat - the Defense Ministry claims that the basic parameters of protection coincide with the Russian 6A. Standards are approved by the MO, aren't they?
      2. 0
        16 September 2012 12: 49
        Quote: Pimply
        You are comparing the wrong cars. 6A, which cannot be brought to mind in any way, compare. That Tiger, which joyfully dissects on the set, is not provided with mine protection.

        What is the use of your mine protection if the machine does not overcome obstacles ??? Will you carry it on yourself ???
        1. +1
          16 September 2012 13: 28
          Oh, damn it. Where does she not overcome obstacles? Her permeability is worse, but this is natural - at the same 6A she will also be worse. Simply because the car is more secure. Different machines for different tasks. Have you noticed - about "stuck in the mud" they talked about the Tiger. My bet is that all these drivers should be sent to a normal driving course. Because the car is used on the off-road of Afgan, it was not adopted in the most tropical Norway and England. Look, I posted there the comments of a comrade who is actively involved in off-road driving - he analyzes the mistakes of the fighters in the text.
          1. 0
            16 September 2012 14: 55
            Quote: Pimply
            Oh, damn it. Well, where does she not overcome obstacles? She has worse passability, but this is natural - in the same 6A she will also be worse.

            Come on. I will not argue anymore. The machine has both advantages and disadvantages and this is normal! There is another question. You can buy them, but not more than 5-10 pieces in order to disassemble to the screw, to comprehend, so to speak ........ And to bring to mind your own, since it is worse .....
            And to buy them in thousands is not an option!
            1. +1
              16 September 2012 15: 07
              Respected. You don’t understand - nobody sells like that. Because no country will work with you like that. This is a cut from world technology. The assembly line for the finished drones was prepared by 3 of the year. Here is a similar situation. Syrian Russian cars will go through 5-7 for years. What do you order to plug holes? Not the most successful copy of the Hammer, plus which is that it was finally booked and this is the first more or less armored car in the army?
    2. 0
      16 September 2012 12: 34
      Quote: Aleksys2
      On the issue of cross

      Yeah! There is a question to ask, but what is more important in a military vehicle through patency or armor? Probably all the same cross! This is the most important thing for an army machine, as well as simplicity and reliability!
      1. +1
        16 September 2012 13: 31
        Dear, I repeat - depending on why. If it’s cross-country, then here you need to buy not the Tiger, but the Zibar - just the Defense Corporation localized them.

        1. +1
          16 September 2012 14: 58
          Quote: Pimply
          Dear, I repeat - depending on why. If it’s cross-country, then here you need to buy not the Tiger, but the Zibar - just the Defense Corporation localized them.

          You have to buy your own, your own !!! Here is the main principle! And if there are drawbacks, then developers need to be customized with foams, is there any leverage for them or not ?!
          Here the most important issue is technological dependence. It’s not enough to buy a car, it still needs to be operated! And our MO is ready for the operation of these cars?
          1. +1
            16 September 2012 15: 09
            You have to do yours first. It takes years to do. Those who are well aware of this are Americans, British, Israelis, etc., in parallel with the development of their own, they buy someone else's. And in large batches. And no one is shaking - oh, not ours.
            1. 0
              16 September 2012 18: 19
              Quote: Pimply
              And in large batches. And no one is shaking - oh, not ours.

              Maybe you are right! hi
              1. 16
                16
                0
                22 September 2012 23: 33
                not h .. he is wrong !!!!!!!
            2. 16
              16
              0
              22 September 2012 23: 32
              Money is spent on making !!!! No one buys in large lots !!!!!!!!!
          2. 16
            16
            0
            22 September 2012 23: 31
            and it is right!!!!!!!!!!!
  12. in reserve
    +1
    15 September 2012 13: 44
    Judging by the pictures, some cramped car seems to me not so safe and there is nothing in it that ours could not do.
    1. s1н7т
      +1
      16 September 2012 22: 31
      Yeah, just why the heck is she needed at all? Was Schaub?)))
      1. +2
        16 September 2012 22: 32
        Yes, as it were, districts where she is desperately not one or two
        1. s1н7т
          0
          17 September 2012 18: 34
          In the special forces? I’m talking about the military, and not about the Ministry of Internal Affairs, for example)
          1. +1
            17 September 2012 21: 13
            In the Caucasus, in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, Transnistria, etc. all the Russian bases and all the militants who abruptly decided to disassemble who is the military and who the Ministry of Internal Affairs suddenly disappeared.

            The descent can be called where and how special forces can armored vehicles. As, however, and not armored. On the other hand, the fact that only this type of transport leaves the special forces is a huge mistake.
            1. 16
              16
              0
              22 September 2012 23: 46
              In the Israeli manner ---- spn is primarily a fight against terror! In Russian, no!
          2. 16
            16
            0
            22 September 2012 23: 35
            pimpled judges based on the fact that the army and the Ministry of Internal Affairs perform the same functions, police !!!!!!!
  13. +8
    15 September 2012 14: 48
    Add my five cents.

    For some reason, in Russia it is traditionally accepted that everyone around is fools, but here everyone is smart. Iveco was adopted by 10 countries, most of which are actively fighting in Afghanistan. In particular - the British, Italians, Spaniards, Norwegians, etc.

    Secondly, in Russia, for some reason, they believe that the type of equipment should be one per unit. In the West, the unit has several vehicles of different types - one for reconnaissance, another for a convoy, a third for mass transportation of soldiers, and a fourth for a major war. Etc.

    The biggest mistake is to push everything into a single whole. A mistake to shoot the same Tigers - but an even bigger mistake to fault Iveco on this basis. Let me remind you of the story with potatoes? Remember how the peasants were forcibly forced to grow it. And all because the peasants nafig did not know HOW IT CORRECTLY IS. Understood - has become a favorite food.

    So it is here. A machine with mine protection has been needed for more than one year and not two. And as for the small amount of luggage, is it perhaps worthwhile to explore the possibilities first? For example, they carry luggage in Afghanistan.





    Here on the very hooks and hangs most of the luggage
    1. Brother Sarych
      0
      15 September 2012 16: 17
      Well, what if it does? There are fools around, and nothing can be done about it ...
      As for mine protection - even if the Israelis or the other nine countries are testing it - they will hold the flag in their hands, I personally will not really feel sorry for them ...
      Well, I do not believe in these declared anti-mine characteristics - this cannot happen, especially after such a detailed story with a photo ....
    2. -1
      15 September 2012 17: 05
      about potatoes - the right remark. I hope Lynx will take root. good pepelats.
    3. +1
      15 September 2012 17: 28
      And Russia gathered again in Afghanistan ?! I thought that Russia needed a machine for operation in its native expanses and its climatic conditions ...
      1. +3
        15 September 2012 17: 34
        Respected. The fact that it is used in Afghanistan does not mean that it is intended ONLY for Afghanistan. It was acquired by 10 countries with different climatic conditions - the same Norwegians. You want to say that in Afghanistan, with its 30 for years, conditions are greenhouse? Perfectly smooth roads? Snow is not falling? Is there no dirt? You don't have to ride off-road.
        1. +1
          15 September 2012 20: 31
          Norwegians have purchased a little over a hundred M65. And indeed, the number of cars in the largest batch (it seems Belgian) is something like nine hundred ... So, not so solid indicators however ...
          But for some reason, this beautiful "Iveka" is not in the Israeli army ... Or was this "potato" not too tasty for an Israeli soldier? .. Or the generals of the Tsakhal turned out to be stupider than Anatol Serdyukov? ..
          1. +3
            16 September 2012 02: 13
            No, it’s just that Israel has been producing cars of this class for many years - it was one of the first to start. Israel is a leader in the production of armor, various kinds of mine systems, remote control systems for external weapons, KAZ. In Israel, not prototypes go, but quite real cars. And these real cars are regularly bought by other countries.

            And Russia is only taking its first steps. Tigers are analogues of the Hammers, and I won’t describe what problems Hammer has overweight with armor. I will simply say that there are many of them.

            For example, in Russia, not a single Russian prototype of those that are being tested has yet completed full-fledged tests for mine protection. And this means that even before full-fledged production, it’s not one year, not two. What can I say if the production of Israeli drones is established for three years. And in the Caucasus, meanwhile, soldiers and policemen are torn regularly. It is good that at the moment there is a certain number of Tigers armored in the 3-5 class. Late in 10-15 years - but they appeared.
            1. 16
              16
              0
              22 September 2012 23: 53
              Well, maybe the state of Israel would not exist, would !!!!!!!!!!! Suddenly lose, would the war?
        2. lotus04
          +1
          16 September 2012 10: 07
          Quote: Pimply
          Respected. The fact that it is used in Afghanistan does not mean that it is intended ONLY for Afghanistan.


          Friends! Take it easy! Money and only money. Everything else for our "helmsmen" is secondary, and maybe even worse. Business and nothing more. And so it is clear that the "lynx", that is, IVECO, and our tiger does not suit. Or that some people think that it is difficult to outweigh the seats from the floor to the side. Or that our armored capsule cannot do? No examples? At least "Rook" was remembered or something. Or the same IL-2. So the question is different. Who and to whom here "pushed"!
          1. -1
            16 September 2012 13: 34
            At the moment, in that class of protection - namely, 6A - yes, they cannot. What the director of the military-industrial complex corporation directly says in an interview, saying that the test machine has not passed yet.

            Yes, by the way, only one of the Russian cars has been tested for demolition so far - Scorpio. And she was blown up with less explosives. These are still prototypes.
        3. 16
          16
          0
          22 September 2012 23: 50
          What the big brother says (I mean the United States) will be !!!
    4. Dimani
      0
      15 September 2012 19: 47
      For some reason, in Russia it is traditionally accepted that everyone around is fools, but here everyone is smart. Iveco was adopted by 10 countries, most of which are actively fighting in Afghanistan. In particular - the British, Italians, Spaniards, Norwegians, etc.


      Well, about the fact that they are fighting, it is said loudly, mainly they are sitting at the bases, and sometimes they are buying off the spirits so that they are not touched. Nevertheless, according to statistics, the loss of troops is mainly from IEDs, which we can conclude that this machine is not so strong.
      1. 0
        16 September 2012 02: 14
        Tell me, where do you get the fairy tale sitting at the bases? As you can see, the situation is just interesting to me. Every soldier walks around the city. Or are they going somewhere?
        1. 16
          16
          0
          22 September 2012 23: 55
          What a fairy tale? If it is true !!!!!!!
    5. 16
      16
      0
      22 September 2012 23: 49
      We do not have Afghan !!!!!!! I mean Russia !!! snow and dirt !!!!
  14. 0
    15 September 2012 17: 33
    article, so article ... answer to the boasted vaunted Hammer ...
    1. 0
      15 September 2012 17: 37
      Hammer has not been praised for a long time. About that, in general, and speech.
      1. 16
        16
        0
        22 September 2012 23: 56
        The Israeli experience is mostly American !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  15. +2
    15 September 2012 17: 48
    Winch, air conditioning, softness ... What was the name of the merits of this "Iveka"? ... So I don't remember something ...
    All adaptation to Russian conditions cost the installation of a "snow flap" that filled the Oski and wide steps. The latter are also unscrewed when driving ... Not a lot, however ... And somehow disabled ...
    And here's the honest word, I never really drove into that, and why do they use automatic transmission for military equipment? .. It's not a parquet SUV, and not a glamorous crossover ... I understand that the machine is on both the HMMWV and the US Army trucks. But this is understandable, for a long time, for the most part, they have largely forgotten how to ride mechanics. But we have not forgotten how, we still can and can ...
    And in a nutshell about my impressions of the car - "Not a fountain" ... I didn’t have much sympathy for this overseas alien, and after watching this photo report (thanks and respect to the author !!!) I became even more strongly negative about his attitude ... You see, the driver is to blame for the fact that his clamps on the battery fly ... Nonsense! ..

    But I was especially touched by the hinges under the padlock. Was this wonderful device already on the original, or is it also from that notorious list for adapting to the conditions of the Russian Army? ..
    1. +1
      15 September 2012 17: 55
      I repeat - remember the story with potatoes. Now - a national dish, before - the number one enemy. If it’s wrong to use and stupid to use, any ultramodern device will turn out to be evil.


      Also, at the request of the Defense Ministry of the Russian Federation, the Italian side made the following improvements:
      - An 1 alternator on 240A was used with 28В instead of 2 alternators on 110 A with 28В;
      - installed 24-volt electrical equipment with DC / DC (DC) converters on 12 V;
      - installed battery protection against stones;
      - an additional combined heater has been installed for heating the engine in the cold season with a rated heat output ≥8kW, also applicable for heating the cabin;
      - to improve the climatic conditions in the cab, an additional diesel heater with a nominal heat output of ≥2kW, designed to heat the cab and installed in the rear of the body, has been added;
      - two additional antenna brackets are installed on the hood;
      - installed a shortened bumper with fog lights in the upper part and a triangular towing device as a front bumper;
      - installed snow protection in the front lower part;
      - applied towing device in the rear with an increased towing angle;
      - an additional socket is installed for connecting electrical equipment when towing a car;
      - increased the width of the footrests up to 180mm;
      - increased maximum load on the annular support in the hatch (on the roof) to 200 kg;
      - the maximum maximum load on the roof has been increased to 300 kg;
      - The design of the seats has been changed regarding the replacement of the skin material;
      - an electric power distribution unit is installed in the cab with branch connectors (12 / 24 B) for connecting consumers;
      - Installed plafonds to illuminate the stairs and the commander's illumination lamp for working in the blackout mode;
      - a bracket for a multi-element antenna (in the form of a spoiler) is installed in the rear part of the cargo compartment;
      - The vehicle includes elements (air intake and exhaust pipe element) to overcome the ford;
      - exterior coloring of the car is green according to RAL 6014;
      Additionally included in the car following parts:
      - carbon dioxide fire extinguisher
      - triangular towing device
      - winches with electric drive
      - spare wheel
      - anti-skid chains
      - a set of tools and pullers
      - manual
      - service book
      - manual for maintenance and repair.
      1. +2
        15 September 2012 19: 04
        Ah ha ... The hinges for the padlock are not on this list. It means this is a native option. Thank you for clarifying this issue, dear Pimply...

        A tapericha about potatoes closer ... You see, dear Pimply, she had that moment, and even now there were no analogues ... What can not be said about this "Iveka". The market for light wheeled armored vehicles is more than overcrowded. Choose what your heart desires. Conduct a tender, test, and put the winner into service ...
        However, all of the above was not even in sight. So it turns out that in essence they got a pig in a poke. And in this case, the service book and the operating manual (which are included in the list as additional "details") will not play a cardinal role ...

        And by the way, there was an idea to make a command vehicle out of this "Iveka". Personally, I would have preferred to see a Land Rover in this role. This "potato" is more to my liking! .. And the choice is rather big. For every taste ... And the work with clients has been set by the company to the highest level ...
        1. +1
          15 September 2012 19: 07
          To your liking. And the reviews about Land Rover are actually not important. In Israel, by the way, he was experiencedly used - he didn’t go.

          And, dear, this is a car of a completely different class and tasks
          1. +1
            15 September 2012 19: 53
            I proposed the Land Rover as a command vehicle (instead of an UAZ, and then as a good wish, nothing more), and not as an armored vehicle. As they say - feel the whole difference ... smile

            And by the way, did they use this very "Iveka" M65 in Israel? .. And if so, what feedback did it get? .. wink
            1. 0
              16 September 2012 02: 30
              Not yuzali, from what I know. There was no need.
              Here are a number of Israeli armored vehicles








              [img] http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg169/scaled.php?server=169&filename=wildcat

              copycp8.jpg & res = landing [/ img]




              [img] http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg102/scaled.php?server=102&filename=miluim1

              31zj5.jpg & res = landing [/ img]


              [img] http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg168/scaled.php?server=168&filename=miluim1

              37gx8.jpg & res = landing [/ img]


              [img] http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg257/scaled.php?server=257&filename=3365973

              4859ddc2ea29do.jpg & res = landing [/ img]






              To make it clear - this is only a small part of what is.

              Yuzali Tiger - a number of details have been added to it, plus cooperation seems to be going on - there is an interview with the director of the military-industrial complex. No feedback is heard. There were no army tests.
              1. with
                +1
                16 September 2012 03: 01
                Quote: Pimply
                Here are a number of Israeli armored vehicles

                Pimply, still started selling already on this site ?!))) bully
                Oh my god, what will the neighbors say?
                1. 0
                  16 September 2012 03: 20
                  Actually - drop Iveco, buy Israeli wink Although, by the way, the Defense seems to be moving an Israeli SUV Zibar called Scorpion LPA. So our people are already working bully

                  1. with
                    +1
                    16 September 2012 03: 32
                    Quote: Pimply
                    Actually - drop Iveco, buy Israeli

                    Do not confuse us with Georgians!)) bully
                    Quote: Pimply
                    Although, by the way, the Defense seems to be moving an Israeli SUV Zibar called Scorpion LPA.

                    Our people do not go to the biplane on JEEPs !!! bully
                    Quote: Pimply
                    So our people are already working

                    Our answer to the Israeli auto industry !!))) bully
                    1. 0
                      16 September 2012 03: 44
                      Who knows, who knows, drones have already been bought. The MIC Corporation is also actively cooperating with Israel. Corporation "Protection" - well, I have already shown wink Above posted a video of Raphael cars
                      1. 0
                        16 September 2012 03: 54
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Who knows, how to know, drones have already bought.

                        09.08.2012
                        Russia will not soon buy unmanned aerial vehicles from Israel. Such a statement, as RIA Novosti reports, on Wednesday, August 8, was made by Russian Deputy Minister of Defense Alexander Sukhorukov.
                        “We have a three-year contract with a joint Russian-Israeli enterprise, a civil aviation plant in Yekaterinburg. So when it is executed, then a decision will be made: we will purchase or we will not, ”Sukhorukov explained.
                      2. 0
                        16 September 2012 04: 14
                        In-in. I say - already bought. So far, an assembly line has been built - a contract for 400, or perhaps millions have been signed.
                      3. with
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 04: 00
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Who knows, how to know, drones have already bought.

                        What do you call the purchase ??)) bully

                      4. +1
                        16 September 2012 04: 17
                        Do you remember the scandal surrounding this situation? At that time, the UAV completed its task - it was discovered by Russian 8 aircraft)

                        But in total - there were two or three purchases - I do not remember. In the amount of the order of 500 million bucks.
                      5. with
                        0
                        16 September 2012 11: 45
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Do you remember the scandal surrounding this situation?

                        You always go away from the answer or answer the question!)) bully
                        Is it possible?))) bully
                        Quote: Pimply
                        In the amount of about 500 million bucks.

                        Don't know when they will start paying my share?))) bully
                        And then I'm like that Zhirinovsky, but still there is no salary and no !!)) bully
                      6. 0
                        16 September 2012 13: 35
                        Quote: met
                        You always go away from the answer or answer the question!))


                        I am a Jew - I can.


                        Quote: met
                        Don't know when they will start paying my share?)))


                        I asked in the ZOG - while they are silent wink
                      7. with
                        -2
                        16 September 2012 13: 57
                        Quote: Pimply
                        I am a Jew - I can.

                        Quote: Pimply
                        I asked in the ZOG - while they are silent

                        So I knew .... (((( crying
                      8. Odessa
                        +1
                        16 September 2012 15: 22
                        Pimply,
                        I am Jewish

                        Happy New Year, with new happiness, with a new star! bully
                      9. 0
                        16 September 2012 15: 41
                        Shana Tova, Esther. Hag Sameah! And gmar hatima tova!
                      10. 16
                        16
                        0
                        23 September 2012 00: 02
                        Jews RUSSIAN fool around or what?
                      11. 16
                        16
                        0
                        23 September 2012 00: 01
                        THAT THE JEWS WELL GOOD TO THE RUSSIAN DEATH !!!!!! Well, if it does not concern kickbacks, of course !!!!!!!!
                    2. Yarbay
                      +1
                      16 September 2012 13: 49
                      Quote: met
                      Our answer to the Israeli auto industry !!)))

                      You are good)) You have your own)))))))))))))
                      1. with
                        0
                        16 September 2012 17: 50
                        Quote: Yarbay
                        You are good)) You have your own)))))))))))))


                        Alibek, you still want to bring me to colic in the stomach with the Russian auto industry !!))) bully
                  2. 0
                    16 September 2012 13: 01
                    Taki already lag behind us with all sorts of Merkavs, Zibars, etc., go to them yourself.
                    1. 0
                      16 September 2012 13: 36
                      Zibar for localization was purchased by a Russian corporation, no?
            2. 0
              16 September 2012 03: 45
              For a set - cars of Rafael Corporation (Israel)

              1. +1
                16 September 2012 12: 25
                Quote: Pimply
                For a set - cars of Rafael Corporation (Israel)

                Too bulky and slow!
                1. -1
                  16 September 2012 13: 37
                  Which of the three?
                  1. 0
                    16 September 2012 14: 31
                    Yes, all three! They are armored trucks! And not jeeps.
                    1. 0
                      16 September 2012 14: 44
                      Dear someone talked about jeeps? It seems not. I added a video to a series of photographs of Israeli armored vehicles of various types. And there are dozens of them.
                      1. 16
                        16
                        -1
                        17 September 2012 23: 54
                        the specifics of Israel, namely the country itself, to fight terror --------- my opinion they probably did not create the state there !!!!!!!!! IN RUSSIA SUCH SPECIFICITY --------- NO! !!!!!!!!!!!!!! terror appeared only in the last time ------------ and that, I think, was the fault of the central authorities! namely the central ones !!!!!!! and the fact that most of the citizens of Israel -------- come from the USSR precisely ---- with its mentality, way of thinking ?????????????
                      2. +2
                        18 September 2012 00: 34
                        Oh dear. Remind you of the war in Afghanistan? Remind Chechnya? The post-war struggle with the guerrilla movements of the forest brothers in the Baltic states and Ukraine - at least until the middle of the 50's. 20-e-30-e will remember? Basmachism is the same, guerrilla movements and so on? In tsarist Russia? In the 20 century, Russia had a relatively short period of about twenty years without such specifics. 20 years. Most Israeli citizens are not from the USSR
                      3. 16
                        16
                        -1
                        20 September 2012 00: 37
                        and how do you like ??????? the first years, decades of the life of any state ??????????? Afghan ----------- It’s a mistake of the political leadership, not the military !!! !!!!! Chechnya ------- again the same thing --------- do not write about Grachev, he was at that time a politician and not a soldier !!!!!!!! Baltic States and Ukraine in the postwar years ---------- so they were animals in general !!!!!!!!!!! Tsarist Russia, a separate conversation !!!!!!!!! but the fact that most Israeli citizens not immigrants from the USSR ---------- I can argue with this and I'm ready !!!!!!!!!!!!
                      4. 0
                        20 September 2012 01: 30
                        Respected. With the help of exclamation marks and furious rhetoric, you can find an explanation for everything.

                        About the inhabitants of Israel - argue with me, I lived there for 15 years.
                      5. 16
                        16
                        0
                        20 September 2012 21: 44
                        My rhetoric is not furious, not at all !!!!!!!! And why do you write that for the Russian army it’s a great car? Have you lived in Israel for 15 years? I’ll bet about the people of Israel, but not now, a little later! Write an article about the country, we will argue again!
                      6. 0
                        20 September 2012 23: 36
                        So argue. Once again I ask - give me figures and facts.

                        I write about the fact that Iveco is not excellent, Iveco is necessary. Necessary, because now the niche of the patrol and convoy mine-protected machine is empty. And Iveco is used by many countries in Afghanistan under combat conditions, and there are no high-profile complaints about it - which means that it is a normal, high-quality armored car for military operations of a certain type. Now - and in the near future - these machines are desperately needed in the Caucasus.
                      7. 16
                        16
                        0
                        21 September 2012 22: 07
                        I don’t need not numbers, not facts !!!!!!!!!! I repeat, there was personal experience and, accordingly, there were conclusions !!!! Write the niche of the patrol and convoy machine ... but these are functions of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, and not army!
                      8. 0
                        22 September 2012 02: 54
                        Dear, and the army too. You look at all the recent wars, including the war in Afghanistan 80's.
        2. 0
          15 September 2012 21: 21
          Personally, I would have preferred to see a Land Rover in this role. This "potato" is more to my liking! .. And the choice is rather big. For every taste ... And the work with clients has been set by the company to the highest level ...

          And if their government says NO ... what will the office do?
          1. +1
            15 September 2012 23: 30
            On "NO" and there is no court, dear PSih2097... In addition to the Land Rover, there is still a not weak bunch of manufacturers engaged in the manufacture of four-wheel drive army vehicles. So the "office" will have plenty to choose from. But again, only on the basis of a competition and the entrance of comparative tests, and not through a muddy movement for inexplicable reasons, as in the case of the aforementioned "Lynx" ...

            And yet, I’ll damn wonder if the M65 rolled in Israel? .. I hope that dear Pimply will give a detailed explanation on this matter ...
            1. +2
              16 September 2012 02: 38
              Gave, and explained why. Israel is one of the leaders in the production of armored vehicles. Israeli cars are bought by different countries, armor is actively bought by companies around the world. This is the reason.

              Russia has a gap in this area. A gap that seems to be trying to fill. But it takes time to fill the gaps. Not a year or two. You can’t just jump over the abyss. Suppose, unlike drones, here it is not so big - but there is.
              1. +1
                17 September 2012 10: 20
                I did not ask you about the leadership of Israel and the gaps in Russia. Although this and that is very controversial points ...
                I asked about "they used an Italian armored vehicle in Israel", and if "they did use it, then what conclusions did they come to?"
                1. 0
                  17 September 2012 12: 37
                  - I said answer - yes or no! To a simple question
                  you can always answer “yes” or “no”, in my opinion, this is not difficult.
                  “Imagine hard,” Carlson intervened. - I
                  Now I will ask you a simple question, and you yourself will be convinced of this.
                  Here, listen! You stopped drinking brandy in the morning, answer yes
                  or not?
                  Frecken Bock took a breath, it seemed she was about to
                  will fall without feelings. She wanted to say something, but could not
                  utter a word.
                  “Well, here you are,” Carlson said triumphantly. - I repeat
                  your question: did you stop drinking cognac in the morning?
                  “Yes, yes, of course,” assured the Kid, who
                  I really wanted to help Freken Bock.
                  But then she was completely brutalized.
                  - Not! She cried, completely losing her head.
                  The kid blushed and picked up to support her:
                  - No, no, I haven't stopped!
                  “Sorry, sorry,” Carlson said. - Drinking for good is not
                  leads.
                  (c) Astrid Lingren

                  You ask me about the same. I will explain why Iveco was not used in Israel - because Israel was one of the first to use light armored and anti-mine equipment, and is one of the leaders in the market - this is the reason why Iveco was not used, and many other machines.

                  On the other hand, Iveco was tested and used and is being used by many other countries in a combat, real situation.
      2. 0
        16 September 2012 22: 43
        Quote: Pimply
        - An 1 alternator on 240A was used with 28В instead of 2 alternators on 110 A with 28В;

        Is the generator 6,7 kW. Should it be a very bulky thing? I was chauffeured for military service but it was a long time ago. Then the 200 W generator was very powerful. Of course now consumers e. energy is much more but 6,7 kW it should be a very big piece of iron.
        Quote: Pimply
        - to improve the climatic conditions in the cab, an additional diesel heater with a nominal heat output of ≥2kW, designed to heat the cab and installed in the rear of the body, has been added;

        Diesel heater, what is a diesel engine there? I obviously do not understand something or do not know.
        1. +1
          16 September 2012 23: 11
          This is the data that is in the public domain, and voiced by the MO
    2. 16
      16
      0
      22 September 2012 23: 57
      PLUS A GREAT COMMENT !!!!!!!
  16. +2
    15 September 2012 20: 24
    Thanks to the author for the article. Personally, I came to the conclusion. Of all the machines, it was only necessary to purchase a winch. I don’t know how prima and what they mean by this, but the commander will definitely be left without legs (photo 12). leave the car on the move. Based on all the presented Lynx (lineup, etc.) is more likely to replace the UAZ than the Tiger.
  17. +2
    15 September 2012 22: 19
    We have an important pimple - in the army, then this Lynx for whom is needed (with a four-fold increase in purchases) we do not have so many lamas and for specialists, well, to put it mildly, not a fountain
    1. +1
      16 September 2012 02: 57
      Dear zadorin1974. This machine LAST of turn is needed by the strippers. And in the first - to ordinary soldiers, including special forces. Another thing is that not only this car is needed, but various armored vehicles complementing it, alternative light versions of SUVs, armored trucks, etc. And now some progress is visible. Developments by the military-industrial complex, the Zashchita corporation, and a couple of other firms.

      There are not one or two cases when specialists do not correctly use this or that technique, machines, weapons. It is enough to recall examples from the Great Patriotic War, when improper operation led to breakdowns, and only the intervention of competent specialists put everything in its place. But there were also warriors, experienced people.

      The guys did not see the normally armored car - and grumble that it is moving hard. Yes, so ALL normally armored vehicles get under way. They do not know that the equipment can be loaded onto the car — and not just put it inside — and they complain that there is not enough space, although it is not enough in the 6 Tiger, but there are no external suspensions. They don’t know the basics of driving an SUV - and the tires become bad, and the car drives: I gave a comment above a person who understands these errors.

      Specialists, according to their own confessions and on Denis's questions, did not normally use the car. They got used to it. A habit in the army is a huge evil. Through it, so many mistakes are made and so many people died - it’s scary to count.
      1. SSR
        +2
        16 September 2012 12: 19
        Quote: Pimply
        The guys did not see the normally armored car - and grumble that it is moving hard.

        ))))) Yes, just the people want something to drive the car only through the forests fields)))
        because the warrior gets stuck in all fields of the forest, mines are thrown under the tigers)))) our tigers .. if suddenly the warrior on the road decides to lay a mine))) he’ll go around the forest but the truck with soldiers let him catch this mine)))
        here damn already got this "argument" about cross-country ability people stupidly do not want to understand that these are just different cars !!!
        and so generally put the tiger on the tracks .. during patency it will improve)))
        by the way ... and our bombers are "bad" and fighters .. the bombers are very big .. the run is big .. expensive ... they fly slowly ... but the fighters .. fly not far ... they cannot carry 50 tons of missiles .. meter range radar cannot be installed in general with equipment)))
        Then commentators begin pipi ** oh state standards to be measured ...
        people himself writes that we do not have a specific mine GOST .. and begins to measure all armor protection with bullets ... read such grief commentators already put on))))
        after all, in black and white it is said ANTIVOMINOUS and that we have NO!
        so no .. begin to measure with bullets.
        1. -1
          16 September 2012 13: 39
          What are we talking about. It cannot reach people that there can be DIFFERENT machines in a unit for DIFFERENT goals. That there is a hole that cannot be eliminated at once, and that while the military-industrial complex is swinging, soldiers will die. They don't care. The main thing is that "our" is written.
  18. Banderlog
    +1
    15 September 2012 23: 07
    Why would the special forces of the GRU (or whose are they now) need this machine? Only one thing suggests itself - long-distance raids. In armor, in unloading. The helmets are understandably removed, lie at the feet, weapons leaning against the side. Will they get tired quickly? An hour and a half, if on a flat road. Behind the two more or less, the three of them are already oozing. Will they be able to quickly leave the car in case of an emergency? There is not enough space for the legs. The steering column and pedal assembly are complete ... Well, it's inconvenient. It is clear that the soldier will endure and complete the combat mission, gritting his teeth and swearing. Or will the crew be staffed with small fighters with "vents"? Maybe the special forces of the VV, as an assault? Moving to an object in the area affected by mines and small arms is also not very good. It is difficult to quickly leave the car in full ammunition, with weapons, ammunition and tools. The idea is very good, but the crew is just cramped. The armored TIGER is much more convenient in this regard. And fast and powerful. Although there are also complaints about it in operation. Thanks a lot to the author for the article. I read it with pleasure.
    1. 0
      16 September 2012 03: 26
      This is a matter of helmets and body armor. A helmet is both an identifier and a defense, and must be on the head of a fighter. It was normal in combat conditions both on 16 and on 20 with the clock hook. The question is the right attitude.

      Have you seen the 6 Tiger? Not Tiger-M, but 6A. The layout there is not very extensive. All because machines of this class suffer from just such a layout. In Hammer armored not turn around. However, they do not necessarily suffer. The tight layout also prevents injuries when the machine is thrown or turned over. He witnessed how M113 turned over. People were saved by the fact that they sat all close to each other and had nowhere to fall.
      1. +1
        16 September 2012 04: 12
        Quote: Pimply
        Not Tiger-M, but 6A. The layout there is not very extensive.

        Inside view of the Tiger 6А
        1. 0
          16 September 2012 04: 19
          Saw. Is this room? Will we communicate separately on the seats and belts? Like the topic, how ready is the 6 Tiger?

          But generally minus that there is a larger LMW.
    2. 16
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      20 September 2012 21: 47
      everything is in the Israeli manner !!!!!!!!! when we drive 100 kilometers in a helmet ------- and immediately died ... sh !!!!!! and I put a plus for your comment !! !!!
      1. +2
        20 September 2012 23: 41
        Do you know why you die? Because, firstly, helmets are bad - only in some units they began to change, and secondly - there is total nonsense in the army. Officers and soldiers often simply lay down their duties. Do you know what a helmet for goals is for? In order to protect your head from blows, shrapnel, shrapnel, give a conditional identifier for your own.

        In the Israeli manner, we were taught to carry an automatic machine with two magazines everywhere, to have an unloading with equipment and armor on hand, when going on a mission to go through a shooting range and put on a helmet.

        Do you want to read how in semi-peaceful conditions, where everything could happen, soldiers served in 2008?
        http://twower.livejournal.com/869780.html
        Highly recommend helpful text.
        1. 16
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          21 September 2012 22: 31
          I answer on every point! These helmets were designed primarily for mass! In some units they are not needed at all! In the army there is a total nonsense - yes, unfortunately, in most units! A helmet on his head can protect only from a shot from Slingshots! Unless of course it weighs 5-6 kilograms or more! In Russian manners --------- WHILE THE RUSSIAN SOLDIER HAS SULPS, MATCHES, SAMOGON-SOS ... THOSE .. NATO SOLDIERS, YEAST FROM THE FEAR OF THE PENTAGON! I repeat, the specificity of the state of Israel is the fight against terror! Too much is not clear and controversial! But is it that the RUSSIAN Riot is Frightened? Have you read the classics? And do you want to hear how the boys died, ordinary Russians who did not serve in the IDF? And what’s most important is not clear for what?
          1. 0
            22 September 2012 02: 58
            Yeah. Massiveness. Tell me, but the rest do not know about it - about the mass production in helmets, and rivet them one by one? I’ll disappoint about the specifics - in addition to terror, there were 7 wars.

            I honestly do not understand - what are you talking about now, about the Russian boys who were dying, it’s not clear why. Want them to die further?
            1. 16
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              23 September 2012 00: 30
              I don’t understand the following, like you on this forum advising something to the country, the army, in which they didn’t serve ... And the Russian ALWAYS WILL STAY RUSSIAN !!!!! And I’m sure we won’t go! I don’t know how in the valiant tzahal! If it is understood by those holding power !!!!!!!!!
  19. -1
    16 September 2012 00: 04
    Yes .... where are you Stalin ?! Look - your compatriots from your country already cannot make a car for themselves .... 3,14zdets. I am ashamed....
    1. -1
      16 September 2012 02: 41
      Respected. Under Stalin, to which you are now calling, the USSR actively purchased samples of machines, machines themselves, machine tools, equipment, etc., because they lagged behind in a number of areas and understood this very well. A chassis was purchased for Christie's tanks - and the tanks themselves, engines were purchased and licensed, and much more. This is what happened under Stalin.
      1. -2
        16 September 2012 12: 20
        Quote: Pimply
        USSR actively bought samples of cars

        Do we have an analogue? hi
      2. 16
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        21 September 2012 22: 37
        Under Stalin, we created a nuclear bomb, launched a satellite, flew into space, etc.! Although there were kinks, where without them! Chassis for Christie tanks were purchased in the 30s! But then there was a T-34!
        1. 0
          22 September 2012 03: 00
          Under Stalin, they flew into space - this is powerful. And the satellite is also strong.
          About the bomb - they created, along the way, actively flailing over technologies from the Manhattan project.
          T-34 - was. In it, for example, for a long time there was no such simple thing as a walkie-talkie. Should I continue?
          1. 16
            16
            0
            23 September 2012 00: 19
            Manhattan project ... - the winners are not judged, as they say! ISRAEL was not observed on the map at all !!!! And the t-34 was the best at that time and time !!!!!!!!!!! But the Tigers (German) ----- everything was in them !!!! But ....
    2. -1
      16 September 2012 12: 19
      Quote: shurikchaevnik
      Look - your compatriots from your country already cannot make a car for themselves ....

      Here I completely agree with you! The car is simple! I didn’t see anything complicated in it!
      1. 0
        16 September 2012 13: 41
        There is no difficult thing. She is simple. But until such simplicity is still plowing and plowing. In vain, do you think several companies are tormented and so far only one specimen has passed the test, and even then - for a lower class of protection?
        1. 0
          16 September 2012 15: 06
          Quote: Pimply
          But until such simplicity is still plowing and plowing.

          I don't think our tiger is harder! The only thing in Iveco I do not approve is the automatic transmission! It’s wild for the army! The army needs mechanics, with a razdatka, blocking interaxal and interwheel differentials, with automatic adjustment of pressure in tires. In short, our tiger needs to strengthen its defense, that's all! Just do it or not, I can’t judge ...
          Quote: Pimply
          In vain, do you think several companies are tormented and so far only one specimen has passed the test, and even then - for a lower class of protection?

          We must continue to work and not stop there!
          Iveco is better at protection, and ours is patency.
          1. 0
            16 September 2012 15: 16
            So they continue the same. Nobody stops. The same "Protection" made several machines, tested two for detonation, continue to work. The military-industrial complex, in addition to the Tiger, is working on several more samples. Everyone plows. The question is that so far the prototypes - none of them - have passed the full test cycle. And in terms of defense, none of the partially passed tests - for example, for undermining - came up to the Lynx in level.

            And understand - yes, better off-road. Due to less security. If you only take on cross-country ability, there’s Scorpio LPA, which seems to be in service, they are Israeli Zibar MK2. No one has such a cross - the Tiger did not stand there either.

            The question is that bringing cars to mind is not a year or two. There is an active sabotage war in the Caucasus. And such machines are desperately needed.
            1. +1
              16 September 2012 18: 16
              Quote: Pimply
              So they continue.

              Well, thank God! Good luck to them!
              Quote: Pimply
              And understand - yes, better off-road. Due to less security.

              So let them put into service both cars! I think that there will be applications for both! hi
              1. +1
                16 September 2012 18: 27
                Well, I hope in the army before this doput.
          2. 16
            16
            0
            21 September 2012 22: 42
            Well, Pupyrchaty served after all in the Tsakhap! Where the army performs police functions! Although here, unfortunately, recently the army has also been performing them!
            1. 0
              22 September 2012 03: 01
              Modern armies often perform functions similar to police officers. These are the features of modern wars.
              1. 16
                16
                0
                23 September 2012 00: 35
                Modern armies often perform functions similar to police officers. These are the features of modern wars --------- And the peculiarities of today's Russia are kickbacks! I'm talking about Iveco! How sad it sounds !!!!! Pluses are the very least --- -one cons !!!
      2. +3
        16 September 2012 22: 59
        Just look at the pictures only. And to do something now is very difficult. And very expensive. And in the development of "Tiger" money was thrown into my Arab customer. Which then refused the car. And now they are simply implementing the results of those developments. Well, not the "Tiger" itself, but a prototype. "Dune" seems to be. But I could be wrong.
        1. +1
          16 September 2012 23: 12
          This is what we are talking about. And it usually takes time to do something
  20. +1
    16 September 2012 01: 04
    The problem is that you can count it as a column even in the absence of a computer. And if you are used to relying on technology, then one day you can be "out of work". Technique, in itself, is just iron - it must be considered in conjunction with other factors. Russian / Soviet technology was famous for its simplicity and reliability. This means that it could be controlled by a poorly trained fighter. I believe that military equipment in Russia should remain so - designed for the average conscript. If we start to complicate things, then we will need to be drafted into soldiers after institutes and universities, and not before! All wars against Russia, even with the use of the most "advanced" technology, were lost due to the lack of the attackers, human and material resources. Well, in the first days (months) of the war, trained cadres who are perfectly able to handle modern technology will die, so what? Shall we conclude a truce while training new specialists? And there are also issues of infrastructure, logistics, the economic component ... Complex equipment will suit professionals, not a village guy who could fix a tractor in the field and plow further! How soon, the same America, will be able to rivet enough high-tech weapons and train recruits? I repeat, I believe that the main military equipment of the country should correspond to cf. the level of development of the conscript! And we have? The level of education is falling, and the technique is getting more complicated! Why follow the western path? They have their own specifics, and we have our own!

    The problem is that you can count it as a column even in the absence of a computer. And if you are used to relying on technology, then one day you can be "out of work". Technique, in itself, is just iron - it must be considered in conjunction with other factors. Russian / Soviet technology was famous for its simplicity and reliability. This means that it could be controlled by a poorly trained fighter. I believe that military equipment in Russia should remain so - designed for the average conscript. If we start to complicate things, then we will need to be drafted into soldiers after institutes and universities, and not before! All wars against Russia, even with the use of the most "advanced" technology, were lost due to the lack of the attackers, human and material resources. Well, in the first days (months) of the war, trained cadres who are perfectly able to handle modern technology will die, so what? Shall we conclude a truce while training new specialists? And there are also issues of infrastructure, logistics, the economic component ... Complex equipment will suit professionals, not a village guy who could fix a tractor in the field and plow further! How soon, the same America, will be able to rivet enough high-tech weapons and train recruits? I repeat, I believe that the main military equipment of the country should correspond to cf. the level of development of the conscript! And we have? The level of education is falling, and the technique is getting more complicated! Why follow the western path? They have their own specifics, and we have our own!
  21. 0
    16 September 2012 01: 09
    I did not LIKE the car!
    Remember only how she appeared in our country. How much was written about this even on this site.
    - who suggested it (probably this contributed to the competition)?
    - what technologies did the Italians transfer to us (the car is produced by "them" in cooperation of 5 countries, and the armor is not Italian)?
    - The contract states separately that experimental machines, during testing, must not be undermined!
    - mine protection photo No. 74 is a piece of iron and five pieces in a compartment, and this is a super technology (I do not believe that they will withstand the "detonation of a high-explosive anti-tank mine (charge mass 6 kg of explosive")?
    - a plastic hood (and here a blast wave, and if an explosion after an automatic burst)!
    - And finally, she’s not beautiful!
    They left people at the GABTU who could not give the technical specifications to our manufacturers and even decide what kind of machines the RF Armed Forces needed.
    1. +1
      16 September 2012 03: 42
      Then the car was blown up - when they purchased prototypes, fired, and a representative of a direct competitor, the military-industrial complex, was present at the tests, which confirmed both the tests and the blasting.

      The questions are correct, and there are many. The problem is that we are unlikely to see secret agreements, and we can only guess what we got. But it is unlikely all this was just like that.

      Do not believe it, and yet Iveco bought 10 countries, and despite the bombings, negative proclamations are not visible.
      1. 16
        16
        0
        21 September 2012 22: 46
        As they wrote on the forum somewhere above, t54 / 55 was purchased by 50 countries and so what?
        1. 0
          22 September 2012 03: 04
          To begin with - T-54 / 55 very often was simply given as an aid to African, Arab and other friends. Secondly, where does the tank that was new 50 years ago? Thirdly, Iveco is bought by countries that have a developed defense industry complex, unlike those countries that bought or received T-54 / 55 as a gift - this is just so, for comparison. You can continue for a long time. Only this is pointless. Because you are dragging an idiotic comparison.
          1. 16
            16
            0
            23 September 2012 00: 12
            I beg your Israeli forgiveness! Not t54 / 55, btr 60pt!
  22. 0
    16 September 2012 01: 24
    I don’t know how an anti-tank mine can withstand, but I can’t cope with improvised explosive devices - the crew died. Look how far the turret has flown.
    1. +2
      16 September 2012 01: 56
      Here the question is not whether it is a mine or not, but in the quantity of explosives. There will be 10-20kg and under the wheel - the chances of survival will drop sharply. Although it’s harder to put.

      There are more than one such photograph. There are also many dead soldiers. But often the car saved - I threw somewhere a few of the cases.

      And in the photo - details, plz, preferably - proof.
  23. 16
    16
    0
    16 September 2012 02: 09
    sheer sediment and not a car !!!!!!!!!!!!! was in the 2nd Chechen ----------- at a trot or iveko which is most likely ------- automatic transmission ------ that is, it cannot be towed --- but as in a battle --------- they will be beaten up and that a tow truck should be expected --------- we had a Ural knocked out ----- -the row was the second, quickly pulled ---- and dragged from the battle --------- patency full hu ...------ how in Russia you can’t drive an army car in the snow, we are not Europe and not Asia with America -------- we have snow and mud !!!!!!!!! I know for myself ------------ from personal experience ----- --- the simpler, the more reliable !!!!!!!!! the only plus iveko ---- no lynx --------- mine protection ------- I repeat, the only one !!! !!! and if these machines go into service with the brigades of special forces ------------- they will earn it there !!!!!!!!!!!! all the same, my subjective opinion --- ------- Our tigers are many times simpler and, most importantly, more reliable !!!!!!!!!
    1. +2
      16 September 2012 03: 57
      Do you know that until recently, American engines and a bunch of foreign parts were on our Tigers? How are they easier? Are foreign cars fundamentally different? Usually - this is the lack of permanent minor damage.

      Europe - among those who bought Belgium, England, Norway - are not the most tropical countries. There is a photo from Norway.



      The machine is actively being used in Afghanistan - also not a greenhouse. About the Tiger and Iveco stuck in the mud - pay attention - they say the same thing. It must be pulled out by a winch.

      About snow - it was written earlier. Baby some claims
      1. 0
        16 September 2012 12: 57
        Quote: Pimply
        Do you know that until recently, American engines and a bunch of foreign parts were on our Tigers?

        And now are ours standing?
        Quote: Pimply
        Are foreign cars fundamentally different?

        Of course they are different !!! The fact that we do not fall into technological dependence on spare parts, etc.
        Quote: Pimply
        Europe - among those who bought Belgium, England, Norway - are not the most tropical countries.

        So let them buy it, but we have our own car! It is only necessary to modify it!
        By the way, ours are going to buy Volvo tankers, since there is a stainless steel barrel and this tanker can refuel up to 12 cars at a time, and ours only two! The mind is incomprehensible! Is it really impossible for ours to make the same barrel and more connectors for refueling !!!
        1. 0
          16 September 2012 13: 46
          YaMZ stands on 30 cars, I had to increase the hood - they did not fit. They are experimental, still being tested.

          Quote: nycsson

          Of course they are different !!! The fact that we do not fall into technological dependence on spare parts, etc.

          This is a matter of logistics and internal localization of production, not the complexity of the device.

          Quote: nycsson
          So let them buy it, but we have our own car! It is only necessary to modify it!

          "Our" car, if you mean the Tiger 6A, has been trying to make and modify for a long time. Proudly promised to begin testing last fall. A year has passed. There is no car. The rest are also only in the form of samples. No, I understand that you don’t care about the soldiers, and you are ready to pay with human lives for the interests of the Deripaska complex. I'm not very good.
          1. 0
            16 September 2012 15: 11
            Quote: Pimply
            YaMZ are on 30 cars, had to increase the hood - did not fit.

            I myself used YaMZ engines, both 236 and 238! Engines are simply not killable, today it is better not!
            Quote: Pimply
            This is a matter of logistics and internal localization of production, not the complexity of the device.

            I agree. So it will not be cheaper to modify your sample?
            Quote: Pimply
            No, I understand that you do not care for the soldiers, and you are ready to pay human lives for the interests of the Deripaska complex.

            Did I say that ??? This is all your speculation !!! I am in favor of finalizing our sample!
            1. +1
              16 September 2012 15: 20
              Quote: nycsson
              I myself used YaMZ engines, both 236 and 238! Engines are simply not killable, today it is better not!

              However, for the Tiger, they have just appeared, and are still being tested.

              Quote: nycsson
              I agree. So it will not be cheaper to modify your sample?

              So try. Only this is a matter of time and money. 10-15 pieces are now being finalized. The announced price of the Tiger - they say it is three times cheaper - this is for the basic unarmored version.

              The main mistake of the manufacturers is to try to make 6A of the Tiger, instead of focusing on other models available to them, devoid of its shortcomings.
        2. 0
          17 September 2012 00: 44
          That's just the point what can be done. But who will allocate money for development. They will do it, spend it, and then they will look for who will take it? And no one will take it? Now all manufacturers are private. How to recapture spent money. The Ministry of Defense was supposed to order and pay for the development 3 years ago. But in my opinion it is easier for them to choose from foreign ready-made brochures. So, most likely, they will not have their own tankers with a stainless steel tank and the ability to simultaneously refuel 12 cars.
          1. 0
            17 September 2012 00: 47
            Quote: 73petia
            But who will allocate money for development. They will do it, spend it, and then they will look for who will take it? And no one will take?


            And this is the risk of the manufacturer. It’s impossible to live only on the money of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and Moscow Region. In the same Israel, for example, 80 is exporting with a flake of defense industry products, and many of the products are not in service with the IDF. There is cooperation - poyuzat, etc. - but not everyone accepts weapons.
      2. 16
        16
        +1
        16 September 2012 22: 35
        I answer for each item !!!!!!!!!! about the engine, unfortunately I do not know, if not YaMZ ------- which any conscript can figure out ------ it's bad !!! on the Internet there are shootings ---------- the Ural has 2 bridges, Iveco, a tiger and another car, I could not determine what kind of equipment --------- the tiger goes farthest in deep snow and faster than anyone !!!!!!!!!!!! Americans for some reason began to purchase our Mi-8s in Afghanistan !! ?? they probably have American air conditioners, dry closets, and coffee makers ---- you think ????????? any army should first of all prepare for combat conditions in its country ---------- and we have snow for six months a year !!!!!!! CHILD CLAIMS-- ------- YOU ABOVE -------- The general opinion about the officers' machine is very mediocre, primarily because of driving performance. Everyone wants to remove the automatic transmission. In second place, according to wishes - an increase in the volume of transported payload. On the third - more space for the convenience of the crew and paratroopers. In the pros noted mine protection, soft ride on the highway, air conditioning.
        The officers believe that the car would be good for convoys, any kind of police operations, like a commander’s or co-ordinated car. Replacing the STS “Tiger” with “Lynx” in special forces is puzzling, since Let the "Tiger" has no mine protection, air conditioning, but it is better in terms of off-road qualities and has a greater internal volume of the cabin.

        My impressions. I have long wanted to feel the car personally and hear the opinions of not engaged journalists, but the military who directly operate this car. Since it was not necessary to drive the "Lynx" off-road, the main impressions were from the convenience of the car. The dense internal layout - a consequence of increased body armor - is, of course, depressing. If the car is operated like the commander's one, then no difficulties arise, a lot of ammunition and ammunition do not need to be transported. But if it is used as the only vehicle of a branch / group, then the issue of small useful volume becomes key. Is that on the roof of some trunk to fence .----------- CAN LISTEN TO THOSE WHO WILL SERVE THEM ???????????
        1. +2
          16 September 2012 23: 04
          Those who will serve them have such a wonderful feature - habit. She has done so much in the army that corpses can be stacked because of her. The army is trying not to show initiative, not to go forward, not to be the smartest. Because intelligence is fraught with work. We have mastered the tiger - and now we’ll still master this garbage, what for we need it. Yes, not ours.

          M16 was misused at first. After that, she gained fame as an unreliable rifle, although the main mistake was in the cartridges and improper care.

          Jeep A large number of jeeps delivered under Lend-Lease were destroyed not by enemy mines, but by improper operation - a lot of damage occurred due to untimely lubrication or the use of oils that were fatal for overseas vehicles.

          The same was true for other equipment, including the Soviet one. And this is not only in the USSR. Murphy's Law Remember? Read about him again, and how he appeared.

          If you simply kick a technique without showing how to use it, naturally, there will be complaints. The best tool will be the worst in the hands of a person who does not know how to use it correctly.

          A car is being used in Norway - strange, but they have snow for six months too.

          Quote: 16 obrspn
          Americans for some reason in Afghanistan began to buy our mi-8 !!

          This is a brilliant topic. Do you know why? Because there are a lot of Afghan pilots who fucking use helicopters, and who did not want to study again - they said, give us the Mi-8. And they buy Mi-8 only for fig-flying Afghans, who at some point have already destroyed half of their fleet.

          Officers are accustomed to putting soldiers on armor, and throwing things into the armored volume. True, it’s cool that they are NOT ON THE COURSE of the fact that things in Iveco, with the exception of the most important, are hung by all the operators OUTSIDE? Then the place appears.

          They want to remove automatic transmission, because they do not know how and do not understand how to work with it. Again a habit. A machine solves several problems at once. In particular, it forgives a bunch of mistakes to a poorly trained driver and makes it possible to drive a car even to a wounded driver.

          Know why the Tiger is more free? Because it’s worse armored! And because other types of armored vehicles are needed. And they are only being developed.
          1. 16
            16
            0
            16 September 2012 23: 20
            maybe the Russians are also fucking exploiting ??????? and flew into space and the first Izz, etc. ????????? we don’t ask in the army ---------- - they started wanting or almost began to buy iveco, etc .---------- they will not have 100 percent !!!!!!!!!! and maybe it’s still simpler - ------- and most importantly more reliable ??????????? officers put soldiers on the armor ------ because it’s safer !!!!!!!!! for now! !!!!!!! automatic transmission m of peaceful life is certainly more convenient !!!!!!!!! Unfortunately for us, the army will be 70-80 percent conscripted !!!!! when an ordinary soldier ------ --- 12000 r salary !!!!!!!!!!! and to teach a conscript something in a year oh how difficult !!!!!!! from here how you write --------- because they do not know how and do not understand how to work with him !!!!!!!!! we completely solve the issue of booking a tiger, but ........ I almost seemed to decide to buy several thousand iveko !!!!!! !! why then the factory ------- sure at their own expense to bring them ??????? although I think they will bring it ------ at its own expense !!!!!!!!!!! tiger will be better !!!!!!!!!!
      3. 0
        16 September 2012 23: 26
        Something is somehow strange mud. It does not stick to rubber. Peat probably.
        1. 0
          16 September 2012 23: 29
          Quite possible. He goes to the forest.
    2. -1
      16 September 2012 12: 08
      Quote: 16 obrspn
      trot or iveko which is most likely ------- automatic transmission-

      Well, this is visible from the photo !!! There is a machine gun! This sucks! I don’t understand how a machine gun was slammed into a war machine ?! Where is the downshift? Is there a transfer case? Is there a blockage of interaxal and interwheel differentials? Anyway, how many driven this car?
      Quote: 16 obrspn
      I know by myself ------------ from personal experience -------- the simpler, the more reliable

      As a motorist, I completely agree with you!
      On this machine you will be confused in the same belts! Wheels on wheels of an incomprehensible configuration! Well, about Michelin tires, I generally keep quiet! Interestingly wheels suitable for our tires? And then on one rubber you can go broke during operation! laughing
      Well, the most important drawback is the imported engine! Where will you repair it? Eccentrics .......
      1. DIMS
        +1
        16 September 2012 12: 11
        Belts are such that in case of explosion the crew do not stick their heads into the ceiling.
      2. 0
        16 September 2012 13: 49
        Yes so. As put on many military vehicles of the world. Because there are several pronounced pluses. Inability to work with the automatic transmission does not mean that it is bad. This means that the driver was not taught to drive.

        But the imported engine ... Tell me, where is the imported Tiger engine still repaired? I will not say anything about the belt system - you obviously do not understand why such belts serve.
        1. 0
          16 September 2012 15: 18
          Quote: Pimply
          Yes so. As put on many military vehicles of the world.

          So let them bet! And I am convinced that the mechanics are better! And I'm more than sure that the machine is not off-road!
          Quote: Pimply
          Because there are several pronounced pluses.

          And what are the advantages of the machine compared to the mechanics ??? If you drive around the city, then I agree .......
          Quote: Pimply
          Inability to work with the automatic transmission does not mean that it is bad. This means that the driver was not taught to drive.

          Riding on the machine is much easier than on the mechanics! If only because there are two pedals, not three!

          Quote: Pimply
          But the imported engine ... Tell me, where is the imported Tiger engine still repaired?

          Is there an imported engine on a tiger?
          Quote: Pimply
          I will not say anything about the belt system - you obviously do not understand why such belts serve.

          Yes, I understand perfectly!
          1. 0
            16 September 2012 15: 40
            Quote: nycsson
            Is there an imported engine on a tiger?


            The vast majority - yes. The Russians were supposed to put 30 cars at the end of last year, in the end they got up only at the beginning of this - and are still testing in the troops. And not only the foreign ones there.

            Quote: nycsson
            Yes, I understand perfectly!

            Well, if you understand why such statements are necessary.

            Quote: nycsson
            Riding on the machine is much easier than on the mechanics! If only because there are two pedals, not three!

            So I am about the same.

            Quote: nycsson
            And what are the advantages of the machine compared to the mechanics ??? If you drive around the city, then I agree .....

            The machine forgives many mistakes. Including - and off-road.
        2. 16
          16
          0
          16 September 2012 23: 07
          in battle --------- when they are shell shock ---------- not about which belts you will not remember !!!!!!!!! just open the door and fall out !!!!!!! !!! this is if without belts, but with belts ... !!!!!!! ???????
          1. +2
            16 September 2012 23: 15
            Respected. I served in quite combat conditions. Work in emergency situations is driven in to automatism. Shout at the stem of the RPG-7 grenade launcher "flame behind" in order to warn the idiots who may be there, dive and shrink when the armored personnel carrier flips over and the cry "the armored personnel carrier turns over". All this is driven in by reflexes. When our armored personnel carrier turned over, people on these very reflexes did everything inside and out. In a real situation. Everything is a matter of correct and competent preparation.
            1. 16
              16
              0
              17 September 2012 00: 12
              That's it ---------- correct and competent preparation !!!!!! for a year of military service is unrealistic !!!!!!!!!! and the fact that we will have an army on call is fact !!!!!!!! Well, if you served in combat conditions --------- I think you should know ---------- the simpler, the more reliable !!!! !!!! about your carts is not accepted !!!!!!! Well, why do you have these or when there are almost any ---- you need to interest your manufacturers ------ and not lobby foreign ----- ----- their tigers ------------ they are easier ------- 100 percent sure !!!!!!!!!!!
              1. 0
                17 September 2012 00: 24
                Respected. It all depends on the number of training hours, on how the soldiers are treated, and on what they do. You can properly train a soldier for real conditions for a period of three to six months, without losing the quality of training. And with intensive training - and in a month or two. If there are no outfits in the kitchen. If there is no idiotic shagistics. If there is the attention of the commanders to the soldiers, and not indifference. I served in the draft army. Of me slowly, but surely made a soldier for six months. If it were intensive more seriously, without abstract garbage, such as outfits in the kitchen, the preparation would be even less. In wartime, a soldier can be normalized for a month and a half. At the same time, having learned how to react, shoot and so on. All a question of intensity, practice and normal attitude towards soldiers.

                Are you sure they are easier? What exactly. Tell me. And in what?
                1. 16
                  16
                  0
                  19 September 2012 21: 47
                  I will answer for each item ------------- and call me Russian ---------- dear accepted in Central Asia and the Caucasus ---------- and we still in Russia ---------- about the training hours I agree ---------- about the training of a soldier from 3 to 6 months I agree also ------- I also served on the draft ---------- The latest opinion is suitable either in wartime or to the contract army !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ----------- Alas and ah in Russia there won’t be a contract army !!!!!!!!! unfortunately !!!!!!!!!!! well, but about IVECO-EVEN DO NOT LYNX ----------- THEY ARE LOBBY ---------- THE FOOL IS UNDERSTANDING AND CLEAR ---------- IN RUSSIA LOTS OF WHICH ARE LOBBING --------- UNNECESSARY ------ BUT ALAS AND AH- --------- SUCH REALITIES OF TODAY'S RUSSIA SUCH THESE ------ AND IT'S BAD VERY BAD --------- Well, what makes them simpler ----------- Well IT IS NECESSARY TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE OPINION OF THOSE WHO WILL DO THEIR WORK ON THESE ---- THIS IS THE FIRST, AND SECOND, I WILL REPEAT — THAN EASIER THE MORE RELIABLE ------- AND WE WILL MAKE A LITTLE WORTERER ----- ---- I AM MILITARY TECHNOLOGY -------- MAY BETTER ---------
                  1. 0
                    20 September 2012 01: 34
                    Dear, it’s accepted in a decent society, the Caucasus, in part, is also part of Russia, no? Well, let’s do it like this: Mr. 16 obprspn, To begin with - try to write correctly and clearly in Russian, since you are Russian - it is difficult to read you. Punctuation marks, caps lock can also be omitted. The simpler - the more reliable. This is a good scheme. Do you think a bicycle is better?
                    1. 16
                      16
                      0
                      20 September 2012 21: 56
                      Caps lock-no one thought to turn it on! I'm not a lord! It’s customary to contact us by name! I don’t know about you! About carts and now bicycles aren’t accepted! And about the thesis: the simpler, the more reliable ..- it is tested by time and blood! Especially for you, I will write with all punctuation marks.
                      1. 0
                        20 September 2012 23: 46
                        Well, your full name is not indicated, right?

                        With all the signs is not necessary. Exclude exclamations - then the text can be read.

                        The simpler - the better it is under certain conditions and to a certain extent.
                      2. 16
                        16
                        0
                        21 September 2012 22: 52
                        Well, since I was born, raised, live and God will die in RUSSIA, call me IVAN! The easier it is, the safer it is, practically in any real combat conditions, not in police operations!
                      3. 0
                        22 September 2012 03: 10
                        You know, the further - the funnier to me. Describe to me "police" operations and not police.
                      4. 16
                        16
                        0
                        22 September 2012 23: 08
                        What to describe? Police operations are currently carried out by the Israel Defense Forces!
  24. 0
    16 September 2012 02: 38
    And what, in this case, is the advantage of operating an expensive, complex, inconvenient vehicle with poor (comparatively) cross-country ability from foreign components, if by adding another 1 kg of explosives, you can achieve what you want? Such a machine only gives a chance to stay alive! And then, only today - tomorrow they will lay a bigger charge. Is it worth "fencing towns" for this? Again, NATO gets involved in wars against, obviously, weaker opponents and gets guerrilla wars, where mine protection is needed. Russia has many such wars and urgently needs such equipment? Of course, no one has canceled the terrorist threat, but force alone, even with the most advanced anti-mine (bullet, shell, at least torpedo) protection, cannot be solved. I am not against someone else's technology, but first, prove in practice that it is better for Us! Well, we found a sample, It seems to be suitable for solving certain problems. Well, let it be used where it is in demand, along with others. And then, if our business is completely bad and we cannot make such products ourselves (and they are really better than ours), then we need to think about purchasing in large volumes.

    And what, in this case, is the advantage of operating an expensive, complex, inconvenient vehicle with poor (comparatively) cross-country ability from foreign components, if by adding another 1 kg of explosives, you can achieve what you want? Such a machine only gives a chance to stay alive! And then, only today - tomorrow they will lay a bigger charge. Is it worth "fencing towns" for this? Again, NATO gets involved in wars against, obviously, weaker opponents and gets guerrilla wars, where mine protection is needed. Russia has many such wars and urgently needs such equipment? Of course, no one has canceled the terrorist threat, but force alone, even with the most advanced anti-mine (bullet, shell, at least torpedo) protection, cannot be solved. I am not against someone else's technology, but first, prove in practice that it is better for Us! Well, we found a sample, It seems to be suitable for solving certain problems. Well, let it be used where it is in demand, along with others. And then, if our business is completely bad and we cannot make such products ourselves (and they are really better than ours), then we need to think about purchasing in large volumes.
    1. +1
      16 September 2012 02: 47
      Not NATO gets involved in wars against the weak, but a fucking UWB and thieving British. Angloamerica is the name of this beast. And everyone else is driven by kicks, threats, and non-existent gingerbread cookies and whips. The East European is * gustered with the help of Russophobia, they are only happy to try, gouge out their own eyes so that * the mother-in-law could have a curve *, but just to the evil of eReFi ... Who are you doing the discounts? You stupefied in your Gazprom offices? When will you get nine-digit sums already? How much will you eat and gnaw at the country? And not only yours ... How much will you feed the Baltic states and others like them? You don’t see how stupid you are and you cause only shame and disgust? You are supposedly people of the sovereign, but in reality you are a disgrace, you are a fucking bitch. I am ashamed that I even have a common former homeland with you ...
    2. 0
      16 September 2012 04: 13
      Respected. Then it’s easier not to fool around at all and carry soldiers on carts. How much easier? And booking nafig is not necessary - why. They give birth. Moreover, there is a law: two children - grandmothers. One then, as it grows up as a soldier - and at a cost you can. It will be cheaper.

      Who told you that it is more complicated than the same Tiger?

      As for Russia and mine protection - look at the Caucasus, they fire there and tear it on an ongoing basis. A bigger charge is, of course, a topic. Only a larger charge and harder to hide, and deliver.


      And of course, you are right that nothing can be solved by one force. And for many other points.

      The problem is the following - in certain sectors of the military-industrial complex in Russia - gaping holes. And the race of the rest of the world takes time. Which especially is not there. Because while catching up, put in a series - people die.
  25. 0
    16 September 2012 03: 05
    Did you have the misfortune to have a common homeland with the oligarchs, a democratic government, thieves, or with the people of that country? By the way, people are also not enthusiastic about what is happening, and such statements can be perceived as an insult. In the previous koment, by NATO was meant pind-o-stan.
  26. Prosto vovochka
    0
    16 September 2012 10: 09
    All is decided. My next car is Volvo V-40 and no off-road. Only asphalt and overnight hotels with a warm toilet and shower.
    1. 0
      16 September 2012 12: 52
      Quote: Prosto Vovochka
      All is decided. My next car is Volvo V-40 and no off-road. Only asphalt and overnight hotels with a warm toilet and shower.

      By the way, I saw an article on one of the sites, the deputy minister of defense said that for the needs of the RF Armed Forces, Volvo brand tankers will be buying! negative am
  27. +1
    16 September 2012 11: 29
    great article! Respect to the author! I was not too lazy. And about the machine ... Everything is tight. I noticed the people correctly. I’m silent about the motor. There’s nowhere to put a finger in! Repair it in the field. How did it happen! you wish.
  28. 0
    16 September 2012 12: 01
    I did not see anything super complicated in this car! Maybe there are nuances with an armored capsule! And so I have a question! Really this simplicity could not be done by ourselves? You need to post the same article, only now about the tiger!
    1. DIMS
      0
      16 September 2012 12: 06
      Yes, but why? To force the Ministry of Defense to buy all sorts of "Tigers" as is is much easier and more profitable.
    2. 0
      16 September 2012 13: 51
      To do is just the problem. Because there is a lag. And not in one year. So far, all Russian models are prototypes, including the 6A Tiger, and I won’t reach for working models. It will be from 5 to 7 years before they go to the conveyor. A couple of models - maybe earlier, but they have lower security.
      1. +2
        16 September 2012 14: 21
        did, but the Russian Defense Ministry torpedoes the program, clearing the way for the Italians (what I don't like, I have to honestly win)
        waiting for October should pass tests for shelling and undermining this TIGER

        in the photo AMZ publication at a photo shoot (personal arch)
        1. 0
          16 September 2012 14: 28
          As far as I know, 6 was promised to break out last year. To be honest, I don’t like the idea of ​​6 for the Tiger. It would be better to normally bring to mind the other samples that they have. 6A is the same anti-mine Hammer. And what kind of story he has is well known.
          1. 0
            16 September 2012 14: 34
            there is SPM2M-I liked

            to undermine, I say scum torpedoing, they are glad to undermine but, as they say, she didn’t come
            1. +2
              16 September 2012 14: 38
              Rustam, but the MO didn’t stop Scorpio from undermining, right? So I think rather excuse
          2. 0
            16 September 2012 16: 27
            Quote: Pimply
            As far as I know, 6 was promised to break out last year. To be honest, I don’t like the idea of ​​6 for the Tiger. It would be better to normally bring to mind the other samples that they have. 6A is the same anti-mine Hammer. And what kind of story he has is well known.

            Bumpy, how is the concept of "Lynx" different from "Tiger", that you constantly pair the Tiger with the modification of the Hammer, and LMV somehow stand apart from you, aside from the losers?
            1. DIMS
              0
              16 September 2012 16: 32
              It is very difficult to turn an already finished car with a flat bottom into a car with mine protection. So far, no one has succeeded. And it is not a fact that the developers of the "Tiger" will be able to do what the Americans failed to do.
              1. 0
                16 September 2012 16: 53
                What is the essence of the Lynx mine defense?
                1. +1
                  16 September 2012 17: 26
                  Protection technology involves the creation of a separate armored capsule for the inhabited compartment, which is equipped with a ceramic ballistic protection attached to a metal frame, standard armored panels and bulletproof glass. The ribs are a special tubular frame.

                  The explosion energy is gradually extinguished by ceramic protection, a two-layer bottom, frame struts, a roof, and a suspension system. The seats of the crew members of the vehicle through the suspension system receive a significantly weakened impulse of acceleration, which does not exceed the medical overload rate for a person.



                  • Red - ballistic protection
                  • Gray - armored glass
                  • Green - standard panels
                  • Blue - metal frame



              2. 0
                16 September 2012 19: 11
                Thanks, DIMS.
                I think it’s not at all a matter of ceramic armor, about which Pupyrchaty writes below and which also raises questions (in particular, the presence of weakened zones). Apparently, the really weak spot of the Tiger is precisely its bottom.
                1. DIMS
                  0
                  16 September 2012 20: 13
                  There are protected cars and with a flat bottom. For example, the Germans. Here it is still a comprehensive solution. The case must not only prevent penetration, which, in principle, is not so difficult. It must absorb the energy of the explosion.
      2. 16
        16
        0
        19 September 2012 22: 04
        to do something is just not a problem !!!!!!!!!! they would give out technical characteristics, terms, finances .......... !!!!!!!!!!!! and our VPK pulled up, would !!!!!!!!!!
        1. +1
          20 September 2012 01: 37
          He would have pulled himself up, ran up, invented. Everything is in the future tense, right? You are aware that he is yes - he is trying to build. Out of a dozen cars in the development of a demolition test, only one passed - and then, in a rather limited version, below Iveco. This is a prototype. From prototype to production - from 5 to 7 years. So, I will ask my multiple question again - are you ready to pay with the lives of soldiers for the interests of someone in the military-industrial complex?
          1. 16
            16
            +1
            20 September 2012 22: 22
            I’m ready to pay with my life! If the Motherland calls! And the soldiers, it was the Russians who paid! The interests of someone in the military-industrial complex, alas and ah! Such, unfortunately, are the realities of today's Russia! In Israel, the latest BMP-based tanks, in t. Part Soviet, Russian!
            1. 0
              20 September 2012 23: 44
              Ready is good. Go break your forehead against the wall. This is to say that life, if given, must be clever, and not like there - the Motherland is calling. Go ahead. Contract service. Ask for the Caucasus. And I guarantee that having driven a couple of times through a city or village where someone was blown up or fired upon, the origin of the machine that protects you will be much less concerned.
              1. 16
                16
                +2
                21 September 2012 23: 04
                I’m ready to fight for the MOTHERLAND! For my relatives and friends! For your information! Contract service, write, 12000 rubles is small, very small! And in the city or village I personally will not go ... even for ever! I will go on foot!
                1. 0
                  22 September 2012 03: 11
                  Now the contract service is not 12000 rubles. Since the new year, she has more. 22000 and above. So, in what war you will go to the service, as you say - on foot.
                  1. 16
                    16
                    +1
                    22 September 2012 23: 04
                    I’ll go to fight for RUSSIA, RUSSIAN! Like my grandfather! And what YOU write ------- 22000 r ---- I have other data and information! Not from the Internet! From real life! And from real people who served or missed serving on contract!
  29. 0
    16 September 2012 12: 14
    Crap, not the targeted spending of state funds, in general, the car r ..... but, the enemies of the people do not sleep (((
  30. 0
    16 September 2012 13: 13
    a little disappointed I certainly expected (to put it mildly) more from iveko angry still wondering why they don’t want to put cannon blogs remotely - here's the video Iveco modified by the British in Afghanistan
    but all the same I want to say thank you for the fact that even the AMZ began to move and finish working on our beloved tiger and I repeat the tigers that are leaving the assembly line for the armed forces are not the same as several years ago

    and Iveka, well, let’s see what will happen next — maybe they’ll finalize it — for protection it’s still ahead — there are ours to be pulled

    pictured (personal archive) TIGER-M production for the Russian army, 2012 AMZ
    1. +1
      16 September 2012 13: 53
      Already with Yamz, as I understand it?
      1. 0
        16 September 2012 14: 13
        Hi bro !!! winked
        yes with yamz
        for export at will or Yamz or with American Cummins B205 (assembled in my beloved Brazil)

        fot he is in the photo (personal archive)
        1. 0
          16 September 2012 14: 20
          Hey. Did they finish running it, or are they still testing the 30 that they recently installed?
          1. 0
            16 September 2012 14: 28
            there are not 30 like already about 70 set
            about running ?? dvigla or cars ???

            I "ll ask
            1. 0
              16 September 2012 14: 30
              Dvigla. About 70 did not see information. I saw the initial delivery of 30.
              1. 0
                17 September 2012 19: 44
                I answer
                The Tiger-M has a 3rd protection class according to GOST, as determined by the MO.
                YaMZ tests passed a long time and is mass-produced
                Together with the state defense order, approximately 80-100 Tiger-M vehicles were delivered to the Moscow Region this year.
                1. 0
                  17 September 2012 21: 14
                  Thank you.
        2. +2
          16 September 2012 18: 07
          Quote: Rustam
          yes with yamz

          Excellent! good Keep it up! drinks
      2. 0
        16 September 2012 14: 22
        Congratulations on awarding the next rank of Comrade Major General winked
        banquet will be ???
        1. +1
          16 September 2012 14: 28
          With blackjack and whores (s)
          1. 0
            16 September 2012 14: 39
            I’ll find out in short
            but amz schA loaded normally
            1-according to GOS for MO production of BTR-82A and TIGER-M
            2-for export of BTR-80,80a, 82a and Tigers
            3-for Ministry of Internal Affairs tiger production SPM-2
            4 Boomerang is also a bear
            1. +1
              16 September 2012 18: 06
              Quote: Rustam
              but amz schA loaded normally
              1-according to GOS for MO production of BTR-82A and TIGER-M
              2-for export of BTR-80,80a, 82a and Tigers
              3-for Ministry of Internal Affairs tiger production SPM-2
              4 Boomerang is also a bear

              Well, that's a weird one! My sincere congratulations to AMZ !!! drinks
  31. -1
    16 September 2012 13: 21
    Thanks to Denis, I worked hard, the material in the end is very decent. About the machine: for myself to buy THIS does not make sense. Taburetkin and Co. will probably figure it out better. bully
  32. mechanic11
    +1
    16 September 2012 13: 35
    It resembles a Hammer n-2. The hood is also fastened. On brake discs, like n-1 (on the axis of the brake discs, and not on the hubs), the brake pads are harder to change. Nothing is said about the split box, what are the four-wheel drive modes The automatic transmission is definitely worse than the mechanics, all new automatic transmissions are electronically controlled. They are even more delicate, they need their cooling system (tubes of additional hoses, etc.). One plus-hand of a fighter is free. need to poke.

    what about locks in bridges?
  33. 0
    16 September 2012 14: 26
  34. -1
    16 September 2012 14: 53
    In the presence of new developments in equipment and weapons, representatives of the Ministry of Defense refuse to accept them into service, explaining this by the absence of a fundamental breakthrough in their capabilities and characteristics. Which seems to be logical and probably correct, but where is the logic of these officials when they adopt the "lynx" to which there are more questions than the "Tiger" and, most importantly, what is the revolutionary breakthrough in the capabilities of this machine. Why, having a much more advanced version of the Tiger, the manufacturer nominated another car for the competition, explaining this within the framework of the military technical specifications? Air conditioning and other "excesses" are installed on all export equipment, having decided that this is superfluous for our soldiers. but for the trot it is a decisive factor.
    1. 0
      16 September 2012 15: 10
      Trains In military vehicles, air conditioning will not seem like an excess. Russian cars, protected by the Lynx class, currently tested in practice, do not exist.
      1. 16
        16
        0
        19 September 2012 22: 08
        air conditioning in war is not needed !!!!!!!!!!! believe me !!!!!!! need an engine ------- maintainable-simple ---------- capacity !!! !!!!!!!!
        1. 0
          20 September 2012 01: 38
          Not needed? It's funny Fought? Have you served? I served and fought - air conditioning makes soldier life much easier.

          Engine - repairable - this is another topic. Which one do you have? As usual in the Russian automobile industry - which regularly breaks down?
          1. 16
            16
            0
            20 September 2012 22: 25
            Well, you served in Tsakhal! I’m in the Russian army! I’m breaking down in the ordinary Russian car industry, I don’t argue! But the army is not a citizen! For me, YaMZ and others, it’s Russian-made, where any conscript will figure it out!
            1. 0
              20 September 2012 23: 48
              And I read other reviews. Over there, for example. And not only him. And I had many friends in the Russian army, and both grandfathers were officers in the Soviet. The regular misfortune of Russian and Soviet technology is minor and major breakdowns. Half of the time from operation, the driver digs into the engine
              1. 16
                16
                0
                21 September 2012 23: 14
                I once wrote on the forum, and who generally served in the army! No one wrote, did not put minuses and pluses! And the question is, well, if both grandfathers served in the Soviet army, then why did you serve in Tsakhal? My grandfather served, came he didn’t complain without a leg when he was 22 years old! And what you write is that the driver rummages in the engine for half the time from operation ... but after all, it rummages through not any service centers, nor any guarantee, in the army it is not needed! equipment and the Russian is good, simple and maintainable!
                1. 0
                  22 September 2012 03: 13
                  We are sure that a guarantee is not needed. If a guarantee is not needed, then, in principle, produce what you want and how you want.
                  Simple and maintainable - this is good. The truth is, with what efforts you are somehow forgetting this repair.
                  1. 16
                    16
                    0
                    22 September 2012 23: 00
                    What does it mean, what efforts? The efforts of a simple soldier!
  35. -1
    16 September 2012 16: 12
    This is of course very important, no one argues, but the shelling at the range and the real conditions far from civilization and military bases are two big differences, roughly speaking, only one "thickness of armor" will not be enough here, a higher autonomy of the machine will be needed, which, in my subjective opinion, perhaps an erroneous lynx is lacking unlike the tiger, which does not have such a dense layout, while the Italian car is impressive and is needed for many units, but why write off the tiger.
    1. +1
      16 September 2012 16: 18
      Good point. There must be several machines for different tasks.

      Well, Lynx not only passed the theory - several countries are actively using them in Afghanistan
      1. 0
        16 September 2012 18: 09
        Quote: Pimply
        Good point. There must be several machines for different tasks.

        Here it is right! good
        1. 0
          16 September 2012 18: 26
          So I always talk about it. They are trying to level the tiger with Iveco. This is a rake. Rakes that have already been stepped on.

          I served in Tsahal. On average, a country has a war every 10 years and constant small-scale military operations. My service was in the Intifada period

          We had Sufa light jeeps, Sufa armored jeeps, Safari armored truck, light reconnaissance hummers, heavy armored Hamers, M113 armored personnel carriers.
          We were considered light motorized infantry. What I listed was only in one company. And also we could order additional equipment. Type of bus.

          More affluent guys had more heavy infantry fighting vehicles, quads and much more.

          When I left, cars like the "Wolf", Palsan's "Desert Cat", etc. appeared.

          That is the main theme. And do not interfere with herring with bricks. They are different.
  36. +1
    16 September 2012 21: 04
    Judging by the reports, the car is completely useless.
    You should pay attention to the "Tiger".
    To release an experimental series of "Tigers" and compare the results of military tests.
    1. DIMS
      +1
      16 September 2012 21: 25
      of the troops now more than "lynx"
      1. 16
        16
        0
        19 September 2012 22: 52
        at the moment there are more experienced ones! but the fact that our native mo announced the purchase in the very near future of 3000 Iveco! ??????? this is soooooooooo much more !!!!!!!!
        1. 0
          20 September 2012 01: 39
          How much - a number you name?
          1. 16
            16
            0
            20 September 2012 22: 28
            The number of prototypes, absolutely, does not matter what! The main thing is the final product!
            1. 0
              20 September 2012 23: 49
              Speak correctly. So, now there is no final product similar to Iveco in terms of security in the Russian army
              1. 16
                16
                0
                21 September 2012 23: 16
                And in terms of ease of maintenance and maintainability?
                1. 0
                  22 September 2012 03: 15
                  I do not think there are catastrophic differences 8)
  37. 0
    16 September 2012 21: 48
    And why the hell are we Italian lynx? Do we have our own lynxes? request
    1. +2
      16 September 2012 22: 02
      There are dumb ones.
      1. 16
        16
        0
        19 September 2012 22: 09
        if they had not been lobbying, then they would have been !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
        1. 0
          20 September 2012 01: 40
          Yeah. Like the Tigers - ten to fifteen years after the rest of the world. Will you personally write to the mothers of the dead?
          1. 16
            16
            0
            20 September 2012 22: 37
            I won’t write to anyone! I’ll come in person if necessary! And what you write, ten to fifteen years after the rest of the world, you, by the way, write correctly, with punctuation marks! The tasks of our army and military-industrial complex were completely different! Not Israeli! Now, yes, other tasks, and, accordingly, requirements! Well, this does not mean at all that everything Russian is bad and worthless (I'm talking about the Tigers)!
            1. 0
              20 September 2012 23: 52
              Did I write somewhere bad and useless? I say - everything has its place and time. The Tiger has its own niche. They are trying to shove it into another - that’s the trouble. Another problem is the build quality and a number of design flaws. I also posted a review on its operation
  38. s1н7т
    +1
    16 September 2012 22: 38
    Why "this" in the Special Forces of the Armed Forces? Maybe what kind of BB is needed, but ours - I don't know. Or have the tasks changed so much? laughing In the past, an army company had to work at a distance of 300-500 km from its troops. And where to put this "coffin" ...? laughing Yes, there was a time when UAZs were used, but it was possible to drive it into a helicopter with a group and bring it where necessary. What's this for? For "police" operations isnt it. No, "we don't need such hockey!" (C))))
  39. 16
    16
    +3
    17 September 2012 00: 15
    spn sun this technique is not what !!!!!!!! except that for police operations !!!!!!!!!!!
    1. -1
      17 September 2012 00: 25
      And how would they have few such operations?
      1. 16
        16
        0
        17 September 2012 22: 23
        in Russia today the number of employees of the Ministry of Internal Affairs is approaching the army — if it hasn’t come nearer !!!!!!!!! clear and understandable !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
        1. +1
          17 September 2012 22: 33
          You want to say that they are not lobbying the Tiger. Opinion about the real military use of the Tiger revered?
          1. 16
            16
            0
            17 September 2012 23: 37
            the tiger may lobby, but while in the lobby it clearly loses !!!!!!!!!!!! and the real combat use - as you write --------- I did not quite understand ----- --- I didn’t read !!!!!!!!! I’m basically not going to read ---------- I had experience ------- there were conclusions !!!!!!!! !!
            1. +1
              18 September 2012 00: 36
              Not going to read - this is the most wonderful argument. The machine is used by 10 countries. Most of them are actively fighting in Afghanistan. Some of them are not in the greenhouse area. For example - Britain, Belgium, Norway.
              1. 16
                16
                0
                19 September 2012 22: 13
                Well, therefore, only Norway is not included in NATO ?????????? although of course I can be mistaken !!!!!!!!!! and the experience, as we say, is ----- not in the IDF-- ------ and in the valiant and honest -------- you will not drink !!!!!!!!!
                1. 0
                  20 September 2012 01: 40
                  What does NATO have to do with it - can you tell?
                  1. 16
                    16
                    0
                    20 September 2012 22: 41
                    NATO? NATO satellite USA! First of all! And you, by the way, note that Iveco is in the arsenal of NATO countries! All NATO is armed with m-16, US technology and obligations!
                    1. 0
                      20 September 2012 23: 52
                      Is everything NATO armed with the M16? I recommend updating knowledge.
                      1. 16
                        16
                        0
                        21 September 2012 23: 19
                        All NATO countries, Western Europe, armed with m-16! For your information! New members are armed with AK!
                      2. 0
                        22 September 2012 03: 15
                        Please list the Western European countries armed with the M-16. I ask 8). And which of the NATO countries is armed with AK. Also - list.
                      3. 16
                        16
                        0
                        22 September 2012 22: 52
                        The countries of the former ATS are in service with the AK! And the fact that YOU sit for hours on the Internet ..! Alas, ah! My pressing problems do not allow this!
                      4. 16
                        16
                        0
                        22 September 2012 22: 57
                        Maybe NATO, for the most part, is not armed with M-16! I repeat, my pressing problems do not allow me to surf the Internet for hours and days! But the fact that most NATO countries are armed with assault rifles based on the M-16! This is a fact!
  40. +1
    17 September 2012 00: 24
    The theme in the Russian army will find a continuation - it's clear! Political prostitutes will benefit! As a result, the Russian industry will create its own analogue for the army, using technologies and modernizing them, for which honor and praise the patriotic locksmiths are 60 years old! (what's next?)! For creators and producers, as usual, 15-000 salaries, and for "ideologues - prostitutes" - "find 25 differences", it was a good puzzle in the USSR.
    1. +1
      17 September 2012 00: 29
      Are you aware that the USSR was not ashamed to buy equipment abroad if its own was worse or there was no analogue?
      1. 16
        16
        +1
        17 September 2012 22: 28
        equipment was bought in the ussr at the very initial stage of the formation of the state, the economy !!!!!!!!!!!! and then the Soviet military-industrial complex was very self-sufficient ---- NOTHING PURCHASED ANYTHING PRACTICALLY -------- - and what was purchased was developed according to our projects and technical characteristics !!!!!!!!!!!
        1. -1
          17 September 2012 23: 02
          No, dear. Here you are mistaken. This is such a well-preserved legend. Dig a little deeper - discover a lot for yourself
      2. 16
        16
        +1
        17 September 2012 23: 39
        at the very initial stage of the formation of the state and the economy -------- I do not argue ------- 30s !!!!!!! then no !!!!!!!!!!!
        1. +3
          18 September 2012 00: 43
          Yes? I recommend refreshing your knowledge. For example, in the automotive industry. To machine tools.

          "At the end of 1946, Klimov, along with Mikoyan, was sent to England as Chairman of the State Commission for the purchase of Derwent and Nene turbojet engines from Rolls-Royce, which were the most advanced of those that the world aviation technology had at that time.
          By the end of 1947, the Nene I and Nene II engines were put into serial production under the RD-45 and RD-45F indices, respectively, at plant No. 45 (now the Salyut Machine-Building Production Association), and the Derwent V engines under the RD- 500 - at plant No. 500. Later these engines were produced at many engine-building enterprises of the country. "

          A huge reserve was made thanks to the victory in the war - factories were actively exported from Germany. However, purchases did not stop. Learn the history of your native country - life cuts out the brain with slogans.
          1. tekinoral
            0
            18 September 2012 00: 56
            Hello Eugene, do you make engines for military equipment or are they purchased?
            1. +2
              18 September 2012 01: 34
              I do not produce anything. wink
              If we talk about Israel, it all depends on the models. Mostly purchased engines. It turns out cheaper and easier. But in many ways this is a forced decision. The country has 7 millions of people, and part of the products can be purchased for military assistance. There are no technological obstacles to the development of engines - many are assembled under license, and in Israel there are a huge number of development centers for various companies: recently, automobile ones have also set their sights.
          2. 16
            16
            0
            19 September 2012 22: 39
            Americans and those in general can be said to have stolen the nuclear program of Nazi Germany !!!!!!!!!!!! and did not shy away from it !!!!!!!!! but we are talking primarily about military equipment, which was the best in the USSR !!!!!!!!!!! HISTORY OF ITS COUNTRY I KNOW GOOD -------- AND I AM Proud OF IT !!!!!!!!!!! WHAT I WILL ADVISE TO YOU !!!!!!! !! I SERVED IN THE RUSSIAN ARMY AND NOT IN THE IDF !!!!!!!!!!! AND COMMENTS AT ME ----------- BASED ON EXPERIENCE AND LIFE !!!!!!!! !
            1. 0
              20 September 2012 01: 43
              WHAT ??? Are you crazy? The Americans had a parallel project. Have you ever read the story?

              You know, write that you know the history of your country well - I’m reading you and somehow I doubt it.

              Pride in the country is not to put exclamation marks.
              1. 16
                16
                0
                20 September 2012 22: 47
                The pride of the country is to be a patriot! First of all! Exclamation marks have nothing to do with it! To be honest, pressing problems do not allow me to spend hours on the Internet! From where I am sure most of the information comes from you! But here is the history of YOUR COUNTRY I know this is so! And the American nuclear project ..- this, of course, is another topic!
  41. 0
    17 September 2012 04: 23
    Plastic hood and radiator "protected" with mesh! A good armored car, you will not say anything.
    1. +1
      17 September 2012 08: 30
      The plastic hood dampens the blast better. The armored hood immediately creates a number of problems - for example, it will unnecessarily "pull" the weight onto itself.
  42. Geton
    +1
    17 September 2012 10: 26
    I read - I read comments, and I realized that BRDM 2 foreve.
  43. +1
    18 September 2012 03: 41
    Pimply,
    Quote: Pimply
    Tigers are analogues of the Hammers, and I won’t describe what problems Hammer has overweight with armor. I will simply say that there are many of them.

    The tiger is not an analogue of Hammer. Hammer - a truck with a mass of 2,5 tons. When you try to book - it moans and rests - the structure (neither the suspension, nor the frame, nor the automatic transmission) is designed for carrying armor. Tiger - was originally designed as an armored car with a CARRYING ARMOR, a suspension from an armored personnel carrier and weighing 7-8 tons. A direct comparison of Hammer with the Tiger, let's say, is excusable TP, but not for the soldier.
    1. +1
      18 September 2012 04: 53
      You can’t directly compare anything at all, agree? Nevertheless, from the very beginning, the Tiger was positioned as the Russian counterpart of Hammer, had the same application concept, and was not structurally designed for mine warfare and heavy reservation.
      The tiger is a good car, but it has its own niche. And when they tried to move him from this niche to another, then the shortcomings climbed. We see them all on the example of the 6 Tiger, which still cannot pass the tests, although it was deflated a year ago. There are a number of shortcomings in the versions that are in service with the army and the police. For example, the SPM-1 has certain problems with braking - I specifically asked a question to Cardin, who somehow made a review of this car. And SPM-1 is just the 3 class
  44. +1
    18 September 2012 10: 23
    Quote: Pimply
    However, from the very beginning, the Tiger was positioned as the Russian counterpart of Hammer

    Who was positioned? With the jaronamers?
    Once again: Hammer 2,5 ton truck-mounted truck. Tiger - 7 ton mini-armored personnel carrier with carrying armored body.

    Quote: Pimply
    and was not structurally designed for mine warfare and heavy reservation.

    Did you dream about this in a dream? At the request of the customer, a reservation is set up to STANAG 4569 Level 3 + reservation of the hood and radiator. http://topwar.ru/8548-tigry-v-urugvae.html

    Yes, there is no V-shaped bottom, but on a machine with such a clearance and such a small armored car by mass, protection against even a medium-sized land mine under the bottom is more marketing than reality. Which confirms the actual operation of Iveco in Afghanistan. Moreover, the vast majority of explosions occur on the sidelines - it’s easier to disguise a landmine, but here the V-shaped bottom will not help.

    Quote: Pimply
    We see them all on the example of Tiger 6A

    Why are you hooked on this 6A. This is an attempt by the military-industrial complex to spit in the face of haulers from the MO no more. Normal customers (the Ministry of Internal Affairs and foreign) are more than satisfied with the current Tiger.
    1. +1
      18 September 2012 13: 34
      Quote: Anddy
      However, from the very beginning, the Tiger was positioned as the Russian counterpart of Hammer

      Well, as if the army men themselves and representatives of the holding.

      Quote: Anddy
      Did you dream about this in a dream? At the request of the customer, a reservation is set up to STANAG 4569 Level 3 + reservation of the hood and radiator.

      STANAG 4569 Level 3 is ballistic and is sometimes mine. Until now, they have not confirmed either of these with tests, as far as I remember.


      Quote: Anddy
      Yes, there is no V-shaped bottom, but on a machine with such a clearance and such a small armored car by mass, protection against even a medium-sized land mine under the bottom is more marketing than reality. Which confirms the actual operation of Iveco in Afghanistan. Moreover, the vast majority of explosions occur on the sidelines - it’s easier to disguise a landmine, but here the V-shaped bottom will not help.


      There is such a moment - mine seats, dispersion of a blast wave - the damage from it can be no less than from fragments.

      Quote: Anddy
      Why are you hooked on this 6A. This is an attempt by the military-industrial complex to spit in the face of haulers from the MO no more. Normal customers (the Ministry of Internal Affairs and foreign) are more than satisfied with the current Tiger.


      The Ministry of Internal Affairs is satisfied with rifles and machine guns from Izhmash, which they spit on the ground. And the Tiger, to which the end user - and I brought his review there - gives out not one or two complaints.

      Foreign customers are satisfied, because they use the Tiger in the right niche - this is, firstly, and secondly, a better version and assembly have always been exported.
  45. +1
    18 September 2012 23: 48
    Quote: Pimply
    Well, as if the army men themselves and representatives of the holding.

    If someone said something in a fit of PR dibilism, is this an occasion to project the numerous problems of the armored Hamer on the Tiger?

    Quote: Pimply
    STANAG 4569 Level 3 is sometimes ballistic and is sometimes mine.

    STANAG 4569 Level 3 - ballistic protection, mine according to another standard is considered.
    There is such a moment - mine seats,

    Write them in TO and get ... :)
    http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=70524&d=1347641731

    blast scattering -

    Yes, they have already seen this supposedly dispersion of the Iveco bombing in Germany. The blast wave climbed into the cabin between the joints in the hinged reservation (remember that Iveco officially announces the presence of 15% weakened zones at Lynx) and increased the pressure inside so much that the upper hatch knocked out ...
    1. DIMS
      0
      19 September 2012 00: 11
      Quote: Anddy
      Write them in TO and get ... :)

      What MOT?
      In general, "Tiger" was created according to the specifications of the Emirates military

      Quote: Anddy
      Yes, they have already seen this supposedly dispersion of the Iveco bombing in Germany. The blast wave climbed into the cabin between the joints in the hinged reservation (remember that Iveco officially announces the presence of 15% weakened zones at Lynx) and increased the pressure inside so much that the upper hatch knocked out ...

      The first cars with explosion protection on mines were without a roof, with an awning, and this was done on purpose, which in practice has shown efficiency.
      Weakened zones are designed to stop the energy of the explosion. Having created an absolutely durable hull, you will transfer this energy to the crew seats completely, and even explosion-proof ones attached to the ceiling will not cope. In the explosion there is no task of saving the car, only the crew.
    2. 0
      19 September 2012 03: 01
      Quote: Anddy
      STANAG 4569 Level 3 - ballistic protection, mine according to another standard is considered.

      Sure? Tell me for what?

      Quote: Anddy
      Yes, they have already seen this supposedly dispersion of the Iveco bombing in Germany. The blast wave climbed into the cabin between the joints in the hinged reservation (remember that Iveco officially announces the presence of 15% weakened zones at Lynx) and increased the pressure inside so much that the upper hatch knocked out ...


      It's funny, while there was a mannequin with sensors inside, there was a representative of the military-industrial complex - the same one that the Tiger produces. Even funnier - the company gives guarantees, ten countries buy the car, it has been used for many years in Afghanistan. But damn it, you are a specialist! You are the best! You are a genius!
      Break your forehead when they will pray for you in 10 countries? Or is it possible without fanaticism? No, stop, you can’t. Only fanatically.

      The car was tested in 10 countries - but here the "special" has a weighty say. All - prostrate! Bravo!

      It's funny But the Tiger 6A year ago they promised to take them to the test. I still haven’t gone. In addition, it promises protection in 5kg under the wheel. Places - 4, loopholes - no. Funny, don’t you? wink
  46. 0
    19 September 2012 00: 16
    Quote: DIMS
    What MOT?

    This is TK :)

    The first cars with anti-demolition mines were roofless

    Yah... :)
    1. DIMS
      0
      19 September 2012 00: 47
      Quote: Anddy
      Yah... :)

      Well yes. Ignorance of history does not exempt from responsibility. What are you starting in the middle. Google, for example, BTR Buffel

      Yes, there is no V-shaped bottom, but on a machine with such a clearance and such a small armored car by mass, protection against even a medium-sized land mine under the bottom is more marketing than reality.

      Well the South African developers did not know this. "Mamba", empty weight 5.7 (for "Lynx" 6.5), ground clearance of 0,39 (for "Lynx" 0,47) And they were able to cope with them in Yugoslavia only by using anti-bottom cumulative
  47. +1
    19 September 2012 01: 06
    Quote: DIMS
    Well yes. Ignorance of history does not exempt from responsibility.

    Replacing your concepts will not refute the fact that in an explosion of 5 kg of TNT on the bottom, both Lynx and Tiger will become a mass grave for the crew.
    Quote: DIMS
    "Mamba", empty weight 5.7 (for "Lynx" 6.5), ground clearance 0,39 (

    Just forgot to compare the angle of the V-shaped bottom at the Lynx and Mamba ...: 0 they are not comparable a little ... :)
    1. DIMS
      0
      19 September 2012 01: 29
      Quote: Anddy
      Replacing your concepts will not refute the fact that in an explosion of 5 kg of TNT on the bottom, both Lynx and Tiger will become a mass grave for the crew.

      Where is the substitution here? Practice proves that a car protected from mines can be without a roof. This is done just to ensure that no excess pressure is created inside the armored capsule.

      5 kg? The "Lynx" was tested with a non-sheathed 6.2 kg. tests passed. But "Tiger" - yes, a mass grave.

      Quote: Anddy
      Just forgot to compare the angle of the V-shaped bottom at the Lynx and Mamba ...: 0 they are not comparable a little ... :)

      Still as comparable, you are confusing "Mambu" with something. But the armor on her bottom is worse, yes. The car is just a little older.

      And by the way, you remembered about V-shapedness, it turns out that this is not only a marketing move.
  48. +1
    19 September 2012 01: 38
    Quote: DIMS
    The "Lynx" was tested with a non-sheathed 6.2 kg. passed tests

    Under the wheel and not under the bottom, plus experts have a lot of questions to that video and to the survival of the dummies involved in the bombing. They didn’t blow up under the bottom.
    Quote: DIMS
    Still as comparable, you are confusing "Mambu" with something.

    Well, if PozoRynys has the same "bath" of the armored hull:


    ... then I am an excellent pupil of machine gun courses at the Moscow Synagogue ... :)
    1. 0
      19 September 2012 02: 29
      It's funny. Doesn't it seem silly to you that "experts" talk a lot about one test, despite the fact that a dozen more countries bought the car? They are all there probably. In Britain, Spain, Norway, Belgium, etc. Fat Men did not even know that there were "specialists" who would "open their eyes" by video. I think they should pray for the "specialists".

      And the funny thing is - the car has been fighting for several years, repeatedly used, it was blown up and fired many times. But of course - it's a shame.
  49. +1
    19 September 2012 05: 47
    Quote: Pimply
    It's funny. Doesn't it seem silly to you that "experts" talk a lot about one test,

    I mean the backstage tests of the Lynx of our Moscow region, which for some reason was carried out in Germany. No representatives of the military-industrial complex were invited there. Nothing but a video with subversion (trust us - there are 6 kg of TNT) not provided under the wheel. Undermining was not carried out under the bottom.
    I think they should pray for the "specialists".

    Here is a list of men and women who can no longer pray, at least in this world:
    http://topwar.ru/11182-a-na-voyne-kak-na-voyne.html

    despite the fact that the car was purchased from a dozen countries

    If 100 pieces were bought as novices there would not be such a resonance. But at first the taburekin decided to take 1700, and now 3000 units. Now he still wants to buy wheeled Italian tanks. This is in the presence of their own development ...
    But of course - it's a shame.

    Lynx's shame consists of many factors - crampedness, lack of access to the front seats, ridiculous cross-country ability, insufficient traction, zero maintainability in the field. But for the first time this term came into use after the exhibition in Nizhny Tagil, when the Italian crew, with the laughter of thousands of spectators, in the presence of Putin and Serdyukov stupidly traveled over all the obstacles that Tiger-M had easily passed before.
    http://youtu.be/tExVQbsaDFg

    I would like to immediately mention the low passability of the Lynx has nothing to do with his supposedly high mine protection. It's just that the car does not have wheel gears, and the lower suspension arms stick out prohibitively close to the ground. Plus the engine hangs very low. Everything is perfectly visible in the pictures.

    About Mamba and its bronkorpus we merge a question?
    1. 0
      19 September 2012 06: 09
      Quote: Anddy
      I mean the backstage tests of the Lynx of our Moscow region, which for some reason was carried out in Germany. No representatives of the military-industrial complex were invited there. Nothing but a video with a blast (believe us - there are 6 kg of TNT) under the wheel was not provided. Undermining was not carried out

      Sory, KAMAZ groups. CEO The military-industrial complex is a competitor of KAMAZ, right? Confused, it happens. And here are the words of the general director of KAMAZ. Interesting, but I read the opposite about undermining under the bottom. In particular:
      "On the second day, two shell explosive devices were detonated under the passenger seat to the right of the driver's seat and under the rear right seat. The explosion destroyed the V-shaped steel mine protection suspended from the silent blocks, but the bottom of the armored capsule was only slightly swollen. No penetration occurred."
      “I saw that the project had the right to exist when we carried out running and resource tests of the vehicles. Then we gave them to the Ministry of Defense and tested them together. Yes, minor improvements were required. Then I went to Germany with a delegation of the military and watched how there Italians shot and blew up the LMV. He also joked about the chief designer of Iveco: "Get in the car when they shoot!" By the way, they fired B-32 armor-piercing bullets.
      - What power charge was undermined?
      - Six kilograms 140 grams. In my presence they weighed a TNT block, laid it in an imitation of rocky ground - a steel pipe, which was driven into the ground. The car was blown up, and the dummy did not receive any damage incompatible with life. And the armored vehicles that our country makes today are equipment for the extermination of our own soldiers, not the enemy's soldiers! "
      Quote: Anddy
      Here is a list of men and women who can no longer pray, at least in this world:
      http://topwar.ru/11182-a-na-voyne-kak-na-voyne.html

      Perfectly. Then they should have stopped using, no? Dumb Europeans.

      http://icasualties.org/OEF/Fatalities.aspx
      Here is a list of deaths by situation and country. I recommend to study. Usually, the weight of the explosives used is also written in the Western press - you can correlate with the dates. I actively recommend reading it. And finally understand that for each car - its place. And that there are no indestructible cars. However, installing heavy explosives is a problem. And reduces the likelihood of death of fighters by orders of magnitude.

      Quote: Anddy
      Lynx's shame consists of many factors - crampedness, lack of access to the front seats, ridiculous cross-country ability, insufficient traction, zero maintainability in the field. But for the first time this term came into use after the exhibition in Nizhny Tagil, when the Italian crew, with the laughter of thousands of spectators, in the presence of Putin and Serdyukov stupidly traveled over all the obstacles that Tiger-M had easily passed before.


      It's funny Tiger-M - passed. Without mine protection. And the Tiger 6A? With his 4-me places and lack of tests, passed?
    2. -1
      19 September 2012 06: 30
      The fact remains. 10 countries have conducted tests, trust the manufacturer, purchase machines and actively use them. I don't give a damn about Germany - they tried to prove to me here that the Syrian rebels did not shoot down the plane, and to a friend - that there was no explosion in the photo, and no matter what arguments you give, it will not help. You are a theorist. And I am a practitioner, I was blown up. You measure the brainchild of the Derpaska holding with the concept of "our", and you think that this is more important than objectivity. I - measure the lives of soldiers. They are somehow more important to me
      1. +1
        19 September 2012 21: 36
        Quote: Pimply
        And I am a practitioner, I was blown up. You measure the brainchild of the Derpaska holding with the concept of "our", and you think that this is more important than objectivity.
        Actually, I am not against export. But there was simply no competition between explosion-proof vehicles. And there are more than enough options around the world in mass production. American, Israeli, South African. Instead of a competition, Serdyukov with a twisted flew to Italy ... and that's it - they really liked it ... :( We buy 3000 pieces ...
        KamAZ CEO as an interested person can say anything. After all, sickly money for the assembly was shining at that time. But the worst thing is that no one is even hiding the tests for our Ministry of Defense for explosion resistance and ballistic protection by the Italians themselves ... Why was this not done by Russian specialists in Russia? Yes, by the way, Kamaz refused to produce Lynx ...
        Quote: Pimply
        Tiger-M - passed. Without mine protection. What about Tiger 6A?

        The geometric parameters of patency in 6a have not changed. The same clearance, same overhangs. Iveco, however, clings to obstacles not with his mine defense, but with low-hanging levers and an engine.

        Especially bare anthers of CV joints deliver ...

        The fact remains. 10 countries conducted tests, trust the manufacturer, buy cars and use them actively.

        The extremely unsuccessful BTR-60PB is used in more than 50 countries. So what? What does this prove?
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          19 September 2012 22: 47
          I fully support !!!!!!!!!!!
        2. 0
          20 September 2012 01: 49
          Quote: Anddy
          The geometric parameters of the 6's passability have not changed at all. The same clearance, same overhangs. Iveco, however, clings to obstacles not with his mine defense, but with low-hanging levers and an engine.


          Will you provide data? Well, with a real sample? Tested?

          The fact that there was no competition is a definite minus. Another question is that quite often behind such deals are package agreements between states. Another minus is that only Iveco purchased and in a certain configuration.
  50. mega_jeka
    +2
    19 September 2012 22: 55
    After reading all these comments from comrade "Bumpy" I came to one conclusion .... yes he is with ... trolls "TIGER" !!!!!!!. "Lynx" is used by many countries of the world, but mainly as KSHM. This bucket does not have an armored capsule, but is assembled modularly, this can be seen in the manufacturer's brochures. What is the compliance with GOST 6? STANAG finally cannot be equated with GOST.
    There is simply no room for a crew in this car, but what if it's winter ?! then how will the comrades in pea jackets, in armored vehicles, in unloading ... and even sPKM at the ready will climb in there?!?!?! And where to put cartridges in, and shots to RPGs?!?! Let's imagine a situation when the driver is injured and cannot control the car ..... how will another crew member climb into the driver's seat ?! yes the answer is simple ... HOW HE DOES NOT CROW THERE !!!! and this tachanka arrived. excellent mesh for RPGs There is a photo of "Lynx" after being blown up by a land mine. The crew closed their eyes. There is even a driver's snail door and this is from 3 kg. TNT. In a very cramped space, when detonated by a land mine, the crew is simply killed. Plus, the absence of loopholes does not make it possible to conduct suppressing fire on the move ..... in short, there are a lot of disadvantages, more than advantages. In fact, everything is very simple ... ROLLBACK .... decide a lot !!! And the lack of orders from our defense industry simply kills the defense industry. Therefore, he pursues several goals, the destruction of the military-industrial complex by such actions and earning money for certain comrades!
    This is just a piece of gov .... and in a beautiful wrapper and no more.
    And the skazachneGA "Bumpy" that one who is undermined five times a week)))))) (booagaga ... schA pat Tstol upadupadu) put in this bucket and ride around the landfill, and let the people smack on it with SVD and PKM, and then undermine it (more precisely, what will be left of it after that) keel by 4-5. Here he will then tell us what a good TACHANKA! ! !
    (unless of course the remaining porridge can talk)
    1. 0
      20 September 2012 01: 46
      Thank you, I already have eight explosions in the Nablus area. And the attacks, too, not one or two. I had enough for my whole life. About "only KShM" - that's great. And the men did not know (s). Therefore, they use it as a patrol and escort vehicle.
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        21 September 2012 23: 25
        And I have one explosion! Yes, even what! In Chechnya! And the men in RUSSIA, NOT IN THE IDF!
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      21 September 2012 23: 23
      Maybe we’ll create a group-IN THE DEFENSE OF RUSSIA AND ITS? And I’m almost alone arguing with this reptile (pimpled)? No one supports! And he is from Tsakhal! Spy, in a word!
      1. +1
        22 September 2012 03: 17
        Thank you, I had a good laugh. 8) All the best to you.
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          22 September 2012 22: 47
          And good luck to you!