KAZ-PVO - complex of active protection of air defense

115

Threat from the air


High precision weapon (WTO) has radically changed the face of the battlefield, posing a deadly threat to weapons, military equipment and other military and industrial facilities. The increase in the range of the WTO and its carriers endangered even objects located in the interior of the country. Precision weapons can be delivered to the target by manned aircraft and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), launched from ships and submarines, mobile and stationary ground launchers (PU).

Protection against WTO can be carried out in several ways - you can destroy WTO carriers with your high-precision long-range weapons on the ground, before they take off, or exit from the port, you can shoot down carriers and high-precision weapons themselves in the air with fighter planes aviation and anti-aircraft missile systems (SAM).



Of course, in reality it will never be possible to ensure the destruction "on the ground" of all the enemy's WTO stocks - there are too many types of carriers and their number.

Interception in the air is also not always possible - firstly, you can generally lose air supremacy, and secondly, with an intense air raid, with the participation of many attacking combat aircraft, electronic warfare (EW) aircraft, false targets, UAVs and cruise missiles ( KR), the defending side simply physically may not have time to destroy all the targets.


Already, ground, surface, underwater and air platforms are capable of delivering a concentrated strike with a huge amount of WTO

Ultimately, the solution to the tasks of air defense (air defense) often falls on the air defense system.

Layered air defense system


Russia is perhaps in the best position here compared to other countries of the world - Russian air defense systems are among the most advanced, the Russian armed forces are building echeloned air defense (air defense), using long (super-long), medium and short (short) range air defense systems ... Their capabilities are complemented by the capabilities of ground-based electronic warfare systems, which are produced in a wide variety by the Russian industry, as well as using decoys imitating real weapons and objects, and forcing the enemy to waste ammunition on them.


Russian electronic warfare systems

Nevertheless, even such an echeloned structure can experience problems during massive enemy attacks - previously this problem was discussed in the article Breakthrough of air defense by exceeding its ability to intercept targets: solutions.


Pantsir-S, destroyed in Syria after exhaustion of ammunition

Over time, this problem only gets worse - new means of air attack appear, for example, small-sized UAVs in the form-factor of a cruise missile, which in large quantities can be deployed from transport aircraft, carry precision weapons, electronic warfare equipment, and, if necessary, act as means of destruction themselves... In other words, if now there is a UAV with a WTO, then in the near future there will be UAVs with a UAV with an WTO.


Dozens of Gremlins-class UAVs launched from transport aircraft and bombers can launch hundreds of small precision submunitions on the enemy

Over time, UAVs will increasingly decrease in size and evolve - they have already reached the level of platoon weapons, where UAVs will partly replace anti-tank missile systems (ATGMs) and mortars, and in the short term UAVs can be used by ground units as an infantryman's individual weapon to defeat enemy manpower.


Micro-UAVs can be used by hundreds, and subsequently by thousands, from a huge number of carriers of various types, ranging from an individual infantryman to specialized ground, surface, underwater and air platforms

Air defense means also do not stand still - the use of modern homing heads and a gas-dynamic control belt makes it possible to turn anti-aircraft missiles into actually anti-missiles, destroying the enemy's attacking ammunition with a direct hit (hit-to-kill) with a high probability.

However, the cost of such interceptor missiles is very high - much higher than that of many air attack weapons (AHN). Yes, and it will still not work to ensure a hit with a probability of 100%, so the consumption of anti-aircraft guided missiles (SAMs) per target will on average always be more than one, which further shifts the balance towards the attackers.

The situation can be significantly changed by laser air defense systems - with their cost per shot, comparable to the cost of the fuel required for the operation of the electricity generator. Currently, they have already gone into the series of air defense systems with laser weapons with a power of about 50 kW, capable of effectively destroying small UAVs, and potentially other airborne weapons.


Destruction of UAVs with laser weapons

In the future, with an increase in the power of laser air defense systems up to 150-300-500 kW and more, the efficiency of their use for various types of EHV will increase even more.

Additionally, powerful laser air defense systems can lead to a significant decrease in the effectiveness of optical homing heads, which will be extremely difficult to protect from laser radiation with a power of tens of kilowatts.

A certain "factor of laser weapons" may appear, when, in order to protect against it, it will be necessary to complicate and increase the cost of air defense systems, to provide them with anti-laser protection, which will lead to an increase in their size and weight. Ultimately, this will reduce the average number of airborne weapons with which the enemy can attack one object, and simplify the task of air defense missile systems to defeat them.

At the same time, laser air defense systems cannot be considered an absolute weapon: their main drawback is the time it takes to destroy each attacking ammunition. The more air defense systems, the better they are protected, the higher the chance that they will overcome the air defense of the object, including laser air defense systems and air defense systems of various types.

Some kind of solution is needed to destroy air attack weapons quickly, inexpensively, with high probability, and in large numbers.

KAZ-PVO


A solution can be found in a related area - active defense systems (KAZ) are used to protect armored vehicles from attacking ammunition.

One of the basic principles of the destruction of an attacking munition is its detection with the help of a small-sized radar station (radar) of instant view and destruction with a directed shrapnel charge or a small-sized munition with remote detonation on the trajectory.


Only active defense systems can ensure the survival of armored vehicles on a battlefield saturated with modern anti-tank weapons

Another similar example is the complex of active protection of silo launchers (silos) of intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs), developed as part of the experimental design work (ROC) "Mozyr".

There is no reliable information about this complex.

According to open data, it includes from several dozen to several hundred barrels with ready-made striking elements (GGE) - high-strength metal balls up to 30 mm in diameter and arrow-shaped striking elements that are fired towards a falling nuclear warhead according to radar data and ensure its destruction on an altitude of up to six kilometers.

The total speed of the meeting between the GGE and the warhead is about six kilometers per second, which leads to the irreversible destruction of the warhead. One salvo can contain up to 40 thousand different GGE.

Presumably, the Mozyr complex is fully automatic and operates without operator participation.

KAZ-PVO - complex of active protection of air defense
The principle of operation of KAZ "Mozyr"

Using the developments in KAZ for the protection of armored vehicles and developments in the ROC "Mozyr", a promising complex of active protection of air defense (KAZ-PVO) can be created.

Its task will be to protect the close line, at a distance of about 100-2000 meters, from enemy air attack weapons.


Structurally, a promising KAZ-air defense system should include blocks of barrels with ammunition of various types, radar and optical means of target detection. Presumably, KAZ-air defense should include two subsystems: horizontal - to protect against ammunition attacking from the side, and vertical - to protect against ammunition attacking from above.

In the subsystem for protection against ammunition attacking from the side, four barrel blocks must be mounted on a turntable at an angle of 90 degrees relative to each other. Each unit must be equipped with individual vertical guidance servos. The aiming servos must have the highest turning speed, in the order of 180-360 degrees per second.

Near the barrel blocks there should be a radar with a circular view, presumably in the millimeter or centimeter wavelength range.


The compact Spyglass all-round radar designed to guide a high-energy air defense laser HEL (High Energy Laser)

In the upper part of the structure, there should be a block of an optical-location system (OLS), which includes day and night channels, and performs an overview of the terrain in four directions, synchronously with the radar, without the need to turn the OLS. The use of laser radars - lidars - can be considered as a promising means of detection for KAZ-air defense.


A variant of the layout of the KAZ-air defense complex, designed to protect against high-precision ammunition attacking from the side

The design of the subsystem for protection against ammunition attacking from above is similar, only in it the barrel blocks are directed vertically upward and can be deflected by high-precision drives in a given range of angles. The direction of view of the radar and OLS is also oriented upwards.


Variant of the layout of the KAZ-Air Defense complex, designed to protect against high-precision ammunition attacking from above

It is likely that a single complex could be developed that provides protection in the entire range of heights and directions of attack.


A variant of the layout of the KAZ-air defense complex, designed to protect against precision ammunition attacking from any direction

To hit targets, shrapnel charges with metal balls or arrow-shaped striking elements, unguided ammunition with fragmentation or core warheads (warheads), with remote detonation on the trajectory can be used. It can also be considered the use of barrels equipped on the principle of systems such as Metal Storm, with a sequential arrangement of charges and striking elements in one barrel bore.


Images and equipment diagram of complexes such as Metal Storm


The principle of functioning of complexes such as Metal Storm

The composition of the KAZ-air defense ammunition can vary depending on the expected, most likely types of targets.

When the radar / OLS / lidar detects an incoming enemy ammunition, its trajectory and the expected meeting point are calculated based on the current position of the complex's trunks. Then, the block of barrels closest to the interception line is turned and a shot is fired. In fact - KAZ-PVO should be an ideal machine for shooting "skeet".

Most of the air attack weapons that can be used by the enemy in large numbers are subsonic targets and can easily be hit by KAZ-Air Defense.

But more sophisticated air defense systems can potentially also be intercepted - the most advanced KAZ for the protection of armored vehicles can even hit armor-piercing sub-caliber feathered projectiles (BOPS), which are tungsten or uranium scrap moving at a hypersonic speed of about 5 M.

If an attacking munition is detected at a distance of about 2000-3000 meters, its destruction can be carried out at a distance of about 100-500-1000 meters or more, depending on the type of attacking munition and the intensity of the air raid.

The destruction of attacking ammunition at a minimum distance will require equipping the KAZ-air defense system with sufficiently strong structural elements, including optical and radio-transparent ones, protecting it from fragments of the destroyed ammunition.

The advantages of KAZ-PVO are the minimum cost of ammunition (they will not install expensive homing heads and any control systems in general, with the exception of remote blasting units on the trajectory required for some types of submunitions), as well as the highest reaction speed and the possibility of fully automatic work, without human intervention.

The algorithms for the work of KAZ-air defense should determine the type of attacking ammunition, based on the analysis of the speed and trajectory of its flight. Depending on the threat posed by this or that air attack means, one or more barrels, one or several different types of ammunition, for example, ammunition with remote detonation on the trajectory, with fragmentation warhead and shrapnel charge, can be used to destroy it.

When working in a group, several KAZ-air defense systems can attack one approaching ammunition, while one KAZ-air defense system will attack the approaching ammunition "head-on", and the one located next to it will attack the same ammunition from the side. Although this will increase the consumption of ammunition, it will significantly increase the likelihood of hitting the enemy's attacking ammunition. In addition, the remnants of the enemy's ammunition attacked from the side are more likely to fly past the KAZ-air defense, attacking "head-on".

The presence of four blocks of barrels, oriented in different directions of the world, will provide an all-round defense from incoming enemy ammunition and minimize the time required to turn towards the attacking ammunition.

If the attack is carried out from one or two directions and the ammunition in the corresponding packages of barrels, initially oriented in this direction, is exhausted, two other blocks of barrels with unspent ammunition can be turned 180 degrees.

In the subsystem for protection from ammunition attacking from above, four blocks of barrels must be able to individually target the attacking ammunition.

In the same way, the radar and guidance OLS should be located. The zone of detection and destruction of the vertical subsystem must intersect with the zone of detection and destruction of the horizontal subsystem.

Of course, both subsystems must be synchronized.

For example, an enemy ammunition attacking an air defense missile system located behind a KAZ-air defense system can be sequentially attacked on a head-on course by a "horizontal" subsystem; it was also attacked in pursuit of a "horizontal" subsystem.

Conclusions


The creation of the KAZ-air defense system will significantly reduce the effectiveness of the enemy delivering massive strikes with high-precision weapons.

Since the cost of ammunition for KAZ-air defense should be significantly lower than the cost of high-precision weapons, the cost-effectiveness criterion will work in favor of the means of defense, not attack. In particular, this effect should manifest itself with the joint use of KAZ-air defense and advanced laser air defense systems.

The use of KAZ-air defense will increase the survivability of air defense systems of all classes, ensuring their protection from attacks by high-precision enemy ammunition, including specialized ones, designed specifically for the destruction of air defense systems. This will allow the air defense missile system to focus on the destruction of carriers and the most dangerous airborne weapons, for example, hypersonic ammunition. The number of cases of the defeat of the air defense system after the exhaustion of its ammunition will decrease - KAZ-air defense will either intercept all the attacking ammunition of the enemy, or give time for the calculations of the air defense missile system to replenish the ammunition load of the air defense system.

The role of KAZ-Air Defense is not limited to the protection of the air defense system.

This complex can be used for the defense of especially important objects - silos with ICBMs, nuclear and hydroelectric power plants, major large industrial enterprises, airfields, bases of ships and submarines, weapons and ammunition depots, and much more. To protect stationary objects, KAZ-PVO can be implemented in a container version, connected to the power supply systems of the protected object (of course, with a backup power source).

The presence of KAZ-air defense will allow to neutralize the advantage of a potential adversary in the quantity and quality of the WTO, force the enemy to spend hundreds of high-precision ammunition where he could do with a dozen - this will be a black hole into which the enemy's taxpayers' money spent on the manufacture of high-precision weapons will fall.

The use of KAZ-air defense will make it possible to shift the "cost-effectiveness" criterion in favor of the defenders, and will largely devalue the effectiveness of large-scale offensive air operations. Extremely complicate or make impossible the delivery of raider strikes, illegally carried out by some countries, including without the carrier entering the victim's airspace.

In the XNUMXst century, active defense systems will become the most important factor in the survival of military equipment and the achievement of superiority in wars and armed conflicts.

The creation of complexes of the KAZ-air defense type can become one of the simplest and most effective solutions for protecting against the massive use of air attack weapons by the enemy.
115 comments
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  1. +4
    10 November 2021 18: 24
    KAZ-Air Defense is promising - as a last chance. and around the protected object there should be a deserted desert, and the object itself is covered with some kind of very strong cover. In general, it is quite suitable for silos
    1. +9
      10 November 2021 18: 38
      In the memoirs of General Designer S.P. Invincible "Weapon of two eras" M, 2010, it is said that KAZ for silos was developed and tested by the Kolomensky KB back in the USSR in the early 80s
      1. +4
        10 November 2021 18: 54
        Against the bombardment of a mine with known coordinates by kinetic blanks, KAZ-air defense will be ineffective, so you need to either dig up the mines from a previously laid tunnel, or build many mines in a square-nesting way, as in China, and in general it is better to launch a rocket from a container from a supply
        1. +1
          11 November 2021 07: 39
          Congenially, Kisa (c)
  2. 0
    10 November 2021 18: 45
    Yes, there is already such.
    The tests have passed.
    I don’t know about supplies to the army.
    She can even intercept an artillery shell.
    According to the developer, the minimum response time.

    TC is the last echelon.
    There is no information in open sources.
    1. +2
      10 November 2021 19: 10
      Quote: kytx
      Yes, there is already such.
      The tests have passed.
      I don’t know about supplies to the army.
      She can even intercept an artillery shell.
      According to the developer, the minimum response time.


      It should be so, if the distance of destruction is of the order of 100-500-1000 meters, then there the reaction time should be a fraction of a second. Good KAZs for armored vehicles have hundredths of a second.

      Quote: kytx
      There is no information in open sources.


      Who is the developer, if not a secret?
      1. +2
        10 November 2021 21: 07
        I don’t remember the development or the name of the complex, alas :)
        Something has become with my memory :)
    2. +4
      10 November 2021 19: 51
      Quote: kytx
      She can even intercept an artillery shell.

      So they "trained" on them, do not drive ICBMs every time. Tank BOPS flies almost as fast.
      I remember at the show to the generals they wanted to see how the system intercepts HE shells real, combat. So that it is spectacular, beautiful, with fireworks. They were asked in response to go to dig up those shells if they did not detonate. And the generals were somehow immediately blown away ...
      1. 0
        10 November 2021 20: 07
        Quote: Jacket in stock

        I remember at the show to the generals they wanted to see how the system intercepts HE shells real, combat. So that it is spectacular, beautiful, with fireworks. They were asked in response to go to dig up those shells if they did not detonate. And the generals were somehow immediately blown away ...

        Those. how did it not explode after falling? As I understand it, a shot was fired from a gun with a regular HE shell, KAZ should intercept it, let's say it did not intercept. But is it supposed to explode when it falls to the ground? What the hell is digging up unexploded ordnance?
        1. +3
          10 November 2021 20: 12
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          What the hell is digging up unexploded ordnance?

          The probability of any event is always less than 100 percent.
          Theoretically, you can even imagine why the projectile will not explode, by the way, this happens quite often. For example, if the striking element of the KAZ hit the fuse,
          1. 0
            10 November 2021 21: 49
            Quote: Jacket in stock
            that, by the way, happens quite often. For example, if the striking element of the KAZ hit the fuse,

            Wouldn't the projectile explode immediately in this case?
            1. +4
              11 November 2021 00: 32
              Nope! Not necessary.
            2. +5
              11 November 2021 03: 10
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              Wouldn't the projectile explode immediately in this case?

              The projectile explodes not by itself and not from the fact that it fell, but from the fact that the fuse went off. And if the fuse was blown away by a kaz element, how does it work. A projectile without a fuse is almost a blank, otherwise it would have exploded already in the barrel of the gun when fired.
              1. 0
                11 November 2021 04: 27
                If a shrapnel hits the fuse, which is unlikely, then with a probability of 99% the projectile will explode.
                1. +3
                  11 November 2021 06: 22
                  Quote: YOUR
                  If a shrapnel hits the fuse, which is unlikely, then with a probability of 99% the projectile will explode.

                  Quite the opposite, if the fuse fails, it has a probability much more than 99 to prevent an explosion.
                  However, the failure of the fuse is not so uncommon, how many shells from the war are still found in the fields in the forests.
                  1. +1
                    11 November 2021 06: 38
                    Quote: Jacket in stock
                    However, the failure of the fuse is not so uncommon, how many shells from the war are still found in the fields in the forests.

                    Not an indicator. Military production is not qualified personnel, shooting mistakes. Projectile hitting soft soil, water, swamp.
                    From memories. During the next flood in the spring, we decided to break the ice jam in front of the bridges with mortar fire. Fired a dozen shots, about half of the mines exploded, stuck into the spongy melted ice, the fuse did not work. They were running behind their heads, holding on to what to do, a couple of mines sticking out of the ice. So such an ice floe will come up to the bridge and explode. True, there the bulls were stacked for centuries under the tsar. Or an ice floe will be washed to the shore and there are children. They managed Peacefully drowned and no one stumbled upon them over the years.
                    The initiating substance in the fuses is hexogen, which is significantly lower in resistance to mechanical stress than TNT or those substances that came to replace it. A blow to the fuse in the case of a KAZ will not be inflicted with a fist, but by fragments flying at supersonic speed. Whatever PIM (safety-executive mechanism) in the projectile is, but it will end with the same good old detonator, Maybe the primer will work and just the hexogen will explode.
                    1. 0
                      11 November 2021 07: 36
                      Quote: YOUR
                      Maybe the capsule will work and just explode RDX.

                      Or it might not explode.
                      A splinter strike will be from the side, the fuse body will simply tear off, or the drummer will jam, or something else.
                      In general, the process is probabilistic.
                      1. +1
                        11 November 2021 08: 41
                        Quote: Jacket in stock
                        The splinter will strike from the side,

                        And what is the chance of such a hit. Too far-fetched.
                      2. +1
                        11 November 2021 09: 13
                        Quote: YOUR
                        Too far-fetched.

                        Those. would you sign up to go after the shooting to the range and look for unexploded ordnance?
                      3. +2
                        11 November 2021 09: 33
                        For this there are sappers who are engaged in this.
                      4. +1
                        11 November 2021 09: 41
                        Quote: YOUR
                        For this there are sappers who are engaged in this.

                        Aren't the sappers people now?
                        It is easier and more reliable to exclude the very possibility.
                      5. 0
                        11 November 2021 09: 45
                        Something I got confused in your reasoning. Then you suggest that I go look for unexploded shells, when I surprised you, wrote that there are people for this who received special training and studied just for this, you start to be indignant, it is not clear why.
                        Quote: Jacket in stock
                        It is easier and more reliable to exclude the very possibility.

                        What's the problem. Try to develop and implement something like this. Not in theory
                      6. +1
                        11 November 2021 09: 56
                        Quote: YOUR
                        Something I'm confused in your reasoning

                        Apparently because they missed the beginning.
                        Generals they wanted to see how the system intercepts HE shells real, combat. So that it is spectacular, beautiful, with fireworks. They were asked in return to go dig up those shells if they did not detonate. And the generals were somehow immediately blown away ...

                        Therefore, in the end, no sappers were needed, they fired with blanks, at the same time, they checked in practice how many and where the fragments got.
                      7. +2
                        11 November 2021 10: 12
                        You know, you don't have to think of the generals as stupid. There may be grabbers, grabbers, lazy people, but they are hardly stupid. To determine whether the KAZ OF will really be able to intercept the blanks are not needed, which then try to find, you will find there still need to determine what kind of damage on the blank, from shrapnel or from a blow, but a really live projectile can immediately understand that it exploded, which means the system is working does not explode does not work.
                        In addition, in real life, they will shoot at the same PF tanks in a row, they will be cumulative and sub-caliber. Cumulative can be RPGs, artillery, ATGMs, what with a rocket engine is likely to damage or knock down, artillery shells are not sure, especially big doubts about sub-caliber ones.
                      8. 0
                        11 November 2021 10: 22
                        Quote: YOUR
                        You know, you don't have to think of generals as stupid

                        And I don’t think, on the contrary, we understood everything and did everything right.
                    2. +1
                      11 November 2021 08: 02
                      Those. From your story it follows that somewhere near the bridge there are 2 mortar mines lying around and who does not itch about this? belay
                      More like a bike laughing
                      1. +1
                        11 November 2021 08: 40
                        Why, near the bridge, ice carried away somewhere. And not two, but 8 pieces. These were two sticking out of the ice. I concretize the place - the Amur Region, the city of Svobodny, the Zeya River, near the railway bridges. I will not say for sure about 1980 - 1981. And it is difficult to count how many shells and other ammunition there is lying on the river bottom and near bridges and further and downstream and upstream.
                        In 1982 and 2010, the district warehouses located near the village of Arga exploded. The first time lightning struck a stack of rockets Grad, Oh, and it was torn then, I was a witness. Observe the sight for sore eyes from the hill through binoculars. Black smoke bursts in it, bursts on the ground. After they told the explosion, they threw up shells from the MLRS at the top, the engine was cut in and how lucky it was, in which direction it would fly. Those who went down, dug to a depth of 6 m.
                        And in 2010, the fool in uniform wanted to get a cool photo. He took out Aglen and, interestingly, the officer photographed him. Pressed start. ............ Officially, the ammunition was scattered at 100 m, it actually flew to the city of Svobodny, which is located 15 km away.
                        So unfortunately not a bike. And no one cleared the river. The number of shells that hit her, I think, goes at least hundreds.
                      2. 0
                        13 November 2021 09: 04
                        How scary to live ..... In the Amur Region! belay in the rivers mines in the ground shells, moreover, lol
                        And that the authorities do not care at all? Maybe they put at least some signs: rabalka and swimming are prohibited, mines! laughing
              2. +1
                11 November 2021 09: 12
                Quote: Jacket in stock

                The projectile explodes not by itself and not from the fact that it fell, but from the fact that the detonator went off.

                Strange people have gathered here. I ask questions, but they give me a minus ... But I’m never an artilleryman. Well, okay, let them pop, demonstrate their ignorance. And I have a question again.
                1. What is the percentage of unexploded ordnance in practice?
                2. Do you have a higher probability that the fuse was blown away by a KAZ element than the defect of the fuse?
                3. Is it ordinary HE shell fuse is not a pin?
                Why, for testing KAZ, take an expensive projectile with a proximity fuse?
                1. +1
                  11 November 2021 09: 55
                  KAZ is not a panacea, now the main losses of tanks from mines and ATGMs. New ATGMs attack tanks from above. There are already those who do not need to get into the tank, an explosion flying over the roof forms the core of a cumulative jet and breaks through the roof of the tank. How will KAZ protect against a sub-caliber projectile? Maybe, in theory, it can knock down the trajectory of this blank with fragments, but no more, a cumulative projectile can damage, or it may not. That is why KAZ is being adopted so slowly.
                  Its use in air defense is not clear at all. What and how can protect it is not clear. No theory, it looks pretty decent, drawings, graphs with practice is not clear.
                  1. +1
                    11 November 2021 15: 04
                    Quote: YOUR
                    KAZ is not a panacea,

                    Thank you, it cleared up a little in my head. hi
                  2. -2
                    13 November 2021 02: 30
                    So for this we need an all-aspect kaz that works at a distance of 100+ meters.
                    and from tanks with bops, losses are minimal.
                    1. 0
                      13 November 2021 07: 31
                      It is very, very scary to be near such a tank, it will mow down its own people at once. Well, let him crawl across the field alone.
                      1. -2
                        14 November 2021 02: 55
                        lol 70% -90% of tank losses are RPGs and RPGs rather it is a tank that needs to be afraid of infantry.
                      2. 0
                        14 November 2021 03: 29
                        Those. act on the principle of hitting your own so that strangers are afraid.
                      3. -2
                        14 November 2021 03: 31
                        and here it is.
                      4. 0
                        14 November 2021 03: 37
                        Because strangers are far away, theirs are close
                2. 0
                  11 November 2021 10: 11
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  Strange people have gathered here. I ask questions, but they give me a minus

                  Well, here it is.
                  is the probability that "the fuse was blown away by the KAZ element" higher than the defect of the fuse?
                  I don't know, but anything more than zero.
                  Isn't the fuse of a conventional HE shell a contact fuse?
                  pin of course. And it is triggered by pressing directly on the "pip" .: A blow to the body without penetration and / or a side blow to the fuse will not necessarily lead to an explosion.
                  Again, from the impact, the projectile can turn over and even with a working fuse, it will simply flop sideways into the ground.
                  1. +1
                    11 November 2021 15: 29
                    Quote: Jacket in stock

                    is the probability that "the fuse was blown away by the KAZ element" higher than the defect of the fuse?
                    I don't know, but anything more than zero.

                    And the defect of the fuse, is it greater than zero, two zeros, three zeros? What am I doing this?
                    Simply -
                    Quote: Jacket in stock
                    They were asked in response to go to dig up those shells if they did not detonate. And the generals were somehow immediately blown away ...

                    this phrase is perplexing, indicates that the landfill is littered with unexploded shells, and that the contact fuses of our shells are not reliable. After all, a large-caliber cannon, 122 and above, does not fire on a flat trajectory at the range, i.e. direct fire. And, even more so, when testing KAZ.
                    And if you did decide to shoot a direct fire with a HE shell, well, for fireworks, then again it is stupid. No one in the realities of the PF will fire a shell at the armor target.
                    In general, some questions. But still, thank you for the information. hi
                    1. +1
                      11 November 2021 15: 44
                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                      this phrase is perplexing, indicates that the entire landfill is strewn with unexploded shells

                      You have strange conclusions.
                      Though. If this is a testing ground for the reliability of fuses, then it may be so.
                      large-caliber cannon, 122 and higher, does not fire on a flat trajectory at the range, i.e. direct fire. 

                      It shoots as needed for specific test targets.
                      We, for example, in those tests fired with direct fire precisely along a flat trajectory, and so that the range was not strewn with shells, we fired into an earthen hill.
                      And if you decided to shoot a direct fire with a HE shell, well, for fireworks, then again it is stupid. 

                      They decided not to shoot. We used practical shells, i.e. without explosives. Then they were dug up and the damage from the KAZ fragments was examined.
                      No one in the realities of the PF will shoot a shell at the armor target.
                      who banned it?
                      They will shoot from everything that will be available.
                      1. +1
                        11 November 2021 15: 56
                        Quote: Jacket in stock
                        You have strange conclusions.

                        Why strange? The phrase itself indicates that the shells often do not explode, since during the tests of the KAZ they may not explode and they will have to be "dug out"
                        Quote: Jacket in stock
                        It shoots as needed for specific test targets.

                        I don’t argue here. The shelling should be from all angles.
                        Quote: Jacket in stock
                        who banned it?
                        They will shoot from everything that will be available.

                        You are reducing "in general" to a particular case. Well, yes, and this can be. But this is still a special case.
                      2. +2
                        11 November 2021 16: 04
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        The phrase itself indicates that the shells often do not explode, since during the tests of the KAZ they may not explode and they will have to be "dug out"

                        Let's go for the third round?
                        The projectile may not explode by itself, but rarely, but it happens. According to the law of meanness, this will surely happen at the most inopportune moment.
                        The fuse can be damaged by a KAZ fragment, which is more likely.
                        The projectile can somersault after being hit by a KAZ fragment and will enter the ground flat or even with the bottom, which is even more likely.
                        ... Well, yes, and this can be. But this is still a special case.
                        private-not private, since maybe, then it should be checked.
                        And the damage from fragments on them is easier to study than on BOPS, for example.
  3. 0
    10 November 2021 18: 57
    So a new fetish has appeared, although any KAZ without a radar for target detection and tracking is just iron, and a 300 kW laser is a matter of a very distant future.
    1. -1
      10 November 2021 19: 07
      Quote: Thrifty
      So a new fetish has appeared, although any KAZ without a radar for target detection and tracking is just iron, and a 300 kW laser is a matter of a very distant future.


      Not so distant:
      https://topwar.ru/163698-armija-ssha-zakazala-razrabotku-boevogo-lazera-moschnostju-250-300-kvt.html
      1. -1
        10 November 2021 21: 07
        Alexey, I can order a spaceship from you, only the absence of a bunch of nodes and technologies will put an end to such an order. Development may take more than one decade. Remember how many military programs they closed because of the impossibility of selling this or that product due to the lack of opportunity!
  4. +2
    10 November 2021 19: 10
    Personally, I am quite pleased that this article appeared! I myself have repeatedly expressed that it is time to create and adopt not only tank KAZs, but also others ... to protect other equipment (and not just armor ...), "small" objects: a separate, possibly small, building , warehouse, bunker, and even possibly a dugout! Discussing on VO the video with the destruction of the Armenian "Tornadoes" by the Bayraktar, he said that the situation could have been different if the KAZs were on the "Smerchi"! The S-300, protected by KAZ-air defense systems ... (KP, PU, ​​AR radar) would not have been disabled ... Considering that while drones are using small-caliber bombs and missiles, it will be really effective! Alas! Nobody paid attention to my comments or almost nobody! At the same time, in the "free patents" there are proposals of similar KAZ-PVO! The construction of the KAZ-air defense system may be somewhat different from the one proposed by the author! I do not agree with the author that only unguided "counter-ammunition" should be used! Perhaps ... and even desirable "combination" of managed and unmanaged ...!
    (even in the "sphere" of the creation of tank KAZ, there is a tendency to switch to KAZ with guided and self-guided counter-ammunition!) PS I hope that the opinion of the authoritative Author will be heeded more attentively than my past comments!
    1. -3
      10 November 2021 22: 34
      Putting KAZ on everything around is not enough money. We need other ways to fight.
      1. 0
        11 November 2021 04: 40
        Well, first of all, they are not even on tanks, there are only developments, so countering shaped-charge projectiles is dynamic protection. Also, to some extent, the KAZ is only uncontrollable. That is to say, a passive projectile hit worked, it didn’t hit, it didn’t work, proactively.
        Secondly, KAZ is just one of the cheapest methods of counteraction. What else can you offer, armor enhancement, laser launcher, turret blaster?
        Until our technology has come to this.
        One of the obstacles to setting up KAZ on any types of equipment is that they also pose a danger to their troops without protection.
        As an example. An offensive tank is on it, or a chain of our soldiers is moving nearby. The enemy fired an ATGM at the tank, which triggered a KAZ and at the same time destroyed his soldiers by destroying the ATGM.
        1. +1
          11 November 2021 10: 08
          Quote: YOUR
          triggered KAZ and at the same time destroying the ATGM destroyed his fighters.

          And if an ATGM is triggered, do you think the fighters will survive?
          1. 0
            11 November 2021 10: 13
            Even how they will survive.
  5. -1
    10 November 2021 19: 23
    I read a fairy tale .. :)
    In some cases, KAZ air defense may work, but it is difficult to convince me that this is a solution to the issue of the same WTO, however. Especially, as indicated, with a flying S = 5Max tungsten rod ...


    In general, the laser will work exclusively in good weather, if there is dust, rain, fog, then the laser action will be reduced by 98%.

    Now the effect will be given only by the "response" to the airfields and the base of enemy UAVs. Of course, in conjunction with layered air defense.

    There is also a cheap, but very "angry" way - airships with a net and mines on it, as it was in the Second World War.
    The height of the airship's rise can be up to 10 km, and the network is as wide as they can do ... which will definitely create difficulties for both UAVs and even aircraft ..
    1. 0
      10 November 2021 19: 41
      Quote: valentin light
      the effect will be given only by the "response" to the airfields and the base of enemy UAVs. Of course, in conjunction with layered air defense.

      If you are not the first to shoot, then you still have to live to see the answer.
      And KAZ in this case will be part of the very echeloned air defense. Her last echelon.
      1. 0
        11 November 2021 09: 49
        The last echelon is the S-350 Vityaz.
        And KAZ is a fairy tale, for now .... - they cannot be installed on tanks for everything yet.
        1. +1
          11 November 2021 10: 06
          Quote: valentin light
          The last echelon is the S-350 Vityaz.

          No.
          Vityaz is the middle echelon.
          Now the latter is Shell, Pine, Derivation, etc. short-range complexes.
          The man proposes to make a very close combat complex.
          1. 0
            11 November 2021 10: 47
            The Pantsir s2 missile cannon system is a short-range air defense system.
            And tactical echelon is "S500" hereinafter "S400", S350 ".

            Medium-radius air defense is the protection of units on the march or deployed in battle formation.

            Short-range action is an operational air defense system.
    2. -1
      10 November 2021 19: 43
      Quote: valentin light
      still a cheap, but very "angry" way - airships with a net and mines on it, as in the Second World War it was

      Yes, cheap and cheerful.
      One thing is bad, it can also interfere with their letak.
      1. 0
        10 November 2021 20: 22
        Quote: Jacket in stock
        Quote: valentin light
        still a cheap, but very "angry" way - airships with a net and mines on it, as in the Second World War it was

        Yes, cheap and cheerful.
        One thing is bad, it can also interfere with their letak.


        So there is a humorous unofficial motto of anti-aircraft gunners - "We don't fly ourselves and we won't give it to others" hi
    3. -1
      10 November 2021 20: 21
      Quote: valentin light
      In some cases, KAZ air defense may work, but it is difficult to convince me that this is a solution to the issue of the same WTO, however. Especially, as indicated, with a flying S = 5Max tungsten rod ...


      The targets of KAZ-air defense are not tungsten rods, and not even shells, but what can be thrown a lot, from afar and cheaply - small UAVs, planning bombs, etc.

      Quote: valentin light
      In general, the laser will work exclusively in good weather, if there is dust, rain, fog, then the laser action will be reduced by 98%.


      No, the laser always works, and bad weather - fog, heavy rain, can reduce its efficiency by 30 percent, maybe 50 percent.

      At 98% it should be a dust storm in the desert, but in such a UAV, and even manned aircraft do not fly. And it's difficult to aim something.
      1. 0
        11 November 2021 08: 54
        There are no lasers in the world of such power that would allow working in a drizzling rain, but good rain or a downpour, this is generally impossible.
    4. 0
      11 November 2021 04: 42
      And how will this airship with a network resist a tungsten rod flying at a speed of 5M?
      By the way, what kind of weapon is that?
      1. 0
        11 November 2021 08: 57
        No way! I said that earlier.

        But it can withstand UAVs and assault aircraft - this has been proven during the Second World War.

        ONLY I'll get better - not an "airship", but "Aerostat".
        During the Second World War, there were entire military units assigned to the air defense
        1. 0
          11 November 2021 09: 47
          Do you know how many planes were destroyed with these balloons? For the entire war, as many as 7.
          Barrage balloons are designed to raise enemy aircraft higher and prevent them from aiming bombing
          1. 0
            11 November 2021 09: 51
            What else do you need? Preventing targeted bombing is an accomplished task. It is naive to believe that planes will fall from the sky ..
            Here is the question of the UAV, which will be the problem ..
            1. 0
              11 November 2021 10: 01
              How many networks do you need. We will catch all the birds
              1. 0
                11 November 2021 10: 21
                No need to "catch birds", Greenpece, however, will swear very much.

                The question is how to do it right now to protect important objects?
                All the talk about KAZ, "Flying cyborgs with laser and blasters" - these are the expectations of the next 50 years.

                Everything old isn't so bad if it worked.


                AEROSTATS (aerostatic barrage or AZ) with a network (possibly not shielding in the radar field) should be placed according to a well-thought-out scheme, like a minefield, 20 km from important objects, while medium air defense and short-range air defense facilities remain inside.

                During the Great Patriotic War, the balloons rose to a height of 4.5 km, new materials allow the height to be increased.

                During the War, the main task of AZ is passive protection and interfere with aimed bombing, the same dive "Junkers" ...

                Now it is possible to optimize specifically for the UAV - a network made of cheap polymer nylon, nylon, or what is cheaper, and the balloons may not be as gigantic as in WWII.
                1. 0
                  11 November 2021 10: 49
                  Arguing about KAZ, they do not understand why this can be installed on a tank as an active part of KAZ. This is a projectile comparable in size to a hand grenade. Fired with an expelling charge. What can he do? In all videos that demonstrate the work of KAZ, the shooting is carried out from an RPG, i.e. a small light projectile. How this projectile affects a 125 mm artillery projectile or an ATGM missile is a big question. But it seems that this is almost some kind of anti-missile, and mine-based
                  1. 0
                    11 November 2021 11: 23
                    The founders of active protection are Israelis.
                    KAZ stands on the "Merkava", just against the RPG-7, of which the Arabs have enough.

                    It is not a shell that flies, but a buckshot in the direction of the grenade.
                    Indeed, so far there is no such thing that KAZ protects against sub-caliber, but here it comes to the properties of armor.
                    1. 0
                      11 November 2021 13: 01
                      The principle of KAZ operation is quite simple. Radar station EL / M-2133, developed by the company "Elta", using four antennas with phased antenna arrays in automatic mode ....... When an object is detected, the dimensions and speed of which correspond to anti-tank ammunition m ....., the computer sends a command to the launcher. The latter shoots off protective ammunition, which forms a beam of cumulative shock nuclei on the target's path.
                      1. 0
                        11 November 2021 13: 38
                        Straight "a bunch of cumulative .."? :))

                        The cumulative jet is either strictly one or not at all, but is simply a shock-dynamic wave.

                        Yes, a cumulative jet is very difficult to extinguish in the direction of its action, but this is a very CONTRACTED area with a low probability of hitting a hostile ammunition.

                        The task of KAZ is to destroy the ammunition before the formation of a cumulative jet.

                        One of the first KAZ "Dozhd" of the Leningrad VNIITM by the end of the 70s threw out fragments to destroy the incoming ammunition at the turn of 2, 2 m
                        KAZ "Drozd" had unguided fragmentation missiles.

                        The newest KAZ "Arena" has 22 devices for destroying incoming ammunition, the dangerous distance for the accompanying infantry is 30 m.
                        Also almost in foreign developments.
                      2. 0
                        11 November 2021 13: 40
                        Quote: valentin light
                        Straight "a bunch of cumulative .."? :))

                        so it is written in the description of the Israeli KAZ "Meil Ruach"
                      3. 0
                        11 November 2021 14: 11
                        They will write ..)))
                        This requires precise orientation of the cumulative jet vector to the incoming ammunition, and they do not fly along an exact perpendicular trajectory.
                        "Steer with the servo? :)) There is not enough time - you need a reaction of 0.22-0.77 ms
                        And the frequent location of the KAZ will make the neighboring ones not needed at this moment to work, and even with this, the likelihood of being called into question.

                        At the KAZ "Arena" exhibition, it was tentatively estimated at $ 300 thousand, the cost with precise guidance of the cumulative jet (if at all possible) will probably be several times higher, and it will be problematic to equip all tanks with just such one-time devices.
                2. 0
                  11 November 2021 10: 53
                  I sent it somehow by chance.
                  KAZ-Air Defense, then why do we need all these air defense systems, MANPADS, air defense missile systems, mutual cover, anti-missiles, if everything can be solved with mines. There is no other name for KAZ-Air Defense
                  1. 0
                    11 November 2021 15: 34
                    Quote: YOUR
                    then why do we need all these air defense systems, MANPADS, air defense missile systems, mutual cover, anti-missiles, if everything can be solved with mines

                    And why then do we need aviation, artillery, machine guns ... if there are helmets and body armor.
                    To destroy aircraft and ammunition at distant approaches.
                    KAZ is the echelon of the last hope. Either so, or death.
                    1. 0
                      12 November 2021 03: 38
                      As the last line of defense, there is mutual cover for other air defense systems, there is direct cover. So for the S-400, the Armor is attached, there are MANPADS calculations.
                      KAZ-air defense is so theoretical self-indulgence. It will never be in service.
          2. 0
            11 November 2021 10: 59
            I know, as well as the fact that ours came across more often.
            But it is not necessary feverishly, as in 1941, to stir AZ with squares.

            AEROSTAT with a nylon cord should be placed 10-20 km from an important object according to a pre-agreed and fixed scheme, while inside the perimeter "Armor" and "Tor", for example ...

            The technologies are now such that polymer balloons and nets will be a cheap solution in combination with air defense.

            And objects such as nuclear power plants, hydroelectric power plants and dams, military warehouses must be protected!
            1. -1
              11 November 2021 13: 05
              Why do we need all sorts of air defense systems there?
              1. 0
                11 November 2021 13: 53
                Anti-aircraft missile systems are needed to defeat hostile aircraft and prevent them from going beyond the line of responsibility of these air defense systems.

                AZ is an obstacle, the essence of which is to provide additional protection against a mass attack by hostile aircraft and specifically UAVs.
                Now the theory of "swarm of drones" is developing intensively in NATO. According to their version, Russia has a high degree of air defense cover and a massive raid of 200 or 500 UAVs and medium-range missiles will make it possible to break through our air defense, simply by quantity, when the ammunition load of air defense systems and anti-aircraft missile systems is zeroed.
                Of course, you can use a low-power nuclear charge in an air blast, but this is an extreme measure and not environmentally friendly ..
                Nuclear power plants and dams must be protected from both accidental stray UAVs and attacks.
                Nobody cancels "С500", С400 "with" Shells "... It's just a cheap option that can be useful .. :))
                1. 0
                  11 November 2021 13: 55
                  How far will this swarm fly?
                  1. 0
                    11 November 2021 14: 08
                    We flew from Idlib to our airbase in Khmeinim (about 150-200 km), though strictly to the air defense line. :))

                    In general, modern UAVs can be in the air for up to 12 hours.
                    1. 0
                      11 November 2021 14: 22
                      Well, don't tell me. Those that can be in the air for 12 or more hours, they cost the corresponding money. No one will use such UAVs en masse to break through air defense. When we worked on Khmeinim, there were reports that they were generally launched from almost a couple of kilometers. Look at the map of the airfield, the base is practically a suburb, among the houses.
                      Install the Google Earth Pro program. Free or in the search engine Google Planet which is the same.
                      It is supposed to saturate the air with small UAVs, and even with corner reflectors, so that a higher mark is given. But so far this is in theory.
                      1. 0
                        11 November 2021 14: 43
                        This "homemade" will not be, but industrial completely.
                        You dear laughing friend imagine the cost of the F-15 and F-16, and they are in the concept of airstrike groups. ))

                        Bayraktar 2 costs about $ 8 million, but Turkey and others are pinning their hopes on it.

                        I gave an example of the approach of homemade products from Idlib, which you grabbed at, just as an example that the "no name" product is capable of flying 200 km, because the question was how far the drones can fly.

                        In October 2016, the Americans successfully tested a swarm of 103 drones.
                        Then, with the technological development of the production of UAVs, the price for them will decrease.
                        DRONES (UAVs) not
                        will become the main weapon, and for countries that do not have a well-organized and professional army, they will not give any advantage at all.
                      2. 0
                        11 November 2021 14: 54
                        I didn't mean to offend you. You shouldn't be so at me.
                        It is known that the mass of each of these UAVs is no more than 300 g, and they are “fired off” by F / A-18 fighter-bombers.
                        The first tests of the "swarm" were conducted last fall over the China Lake range in the state of California. The US military command claims that the tests of the swarm of the UAV were generally successful.

                        As she clarified, this "swarm" consisted of 103 micro-UAVs Perdix (in honor of the student of the character of ancient Greek mythology, Daedalus Perdix). The aircraft, each weighing only 290 grams, were launched by three F / A-18 Super Hornets over the China Lake Proving Grounds, California.

                        Apparatus like the Perdix, according to the information provided by the Pentagon, can be used for "reconnaissance and observation from low altitude", as well as carry out "other missions."

                        Those. that's not exactly what we're talking about.
                      3. 0
                        11 November 2021 15: 59
                        It's a concept!
                        That is, an innovation with a technical base for the execution of drones for a specific order, and it is, I'm talking about kamikaze drones.
                        We are also working, but Russia will create something similar to a "swarm of kamikaze" not earlier than in 5 years.

                        By the way, the information about 103 kamikaze drones, which I have seen, is already presented as the development of the prototype of the "kamikaze".

                        When semiconductors appeared, it was a sensation, and the equipment was considered an ideal reference and not cheap.
                        Then semiconductors changed microcircuits and peak controllers, which are now being devalued.
                        So it will be in industrial production - when the final technical process is laid down, production will become cheaper.

                        I have already said that for a normal army, UAVs are not as dangerous as they are for important facilities such as nuclear power plants, chemical. factories, etc.
                        It is simply impossible to ignore NATO Wishlist.
                      4. 0
                        11 November 2021 16: 30
                        "Other missions" is similar to what we are talking about


                        The very meaning of the "swarm of drones" of scouts is absurd. What are we swarming to explore? :)))
  6. 0
    10 November 2021 20: 03
    Quote: Andrey Mitrofanov
    Pantsir-S, destroyed in Syria after exhaustion of ammunition

    belay

    Well, how long can you fiddle with this photo with some kind of Chinese 4-axle nruzovik, on which the Syrians were transporting a concrete mixer, or the Iranians were monstering a rocket launcher?

    Quote: Andrey Mitrofanov
    The creation of complexes of the KAZ-air defense type can become one of the simplest and most effective solutions for protecting against the massive use of air attack weapons by the enemy.

    unlikely
    1. air defense carriers are already overloaded, excess mass across the throat, energy again
    2. KAZ radar will make significant interference in the radar of the complex itself
    3. After the KAZ is triggered, there will be full milk on the main air defense system. The complex will stop functioning (due to interference) for 4-15 seconds.
    It is very easy to overcome such a KAZ and such an air defense
    4.There is practically no place where to put the KAZ, so as not to interfere, or if they put it, so as not to demolish half of the canopy of the air defense complex when fired
    1. 0
      10 November 2021 20: 27
      Quote: ja-ja-vw

      1. air defense carriers are already overloaded, excess mass across the throat, energy again
      2. KAZ radar will make significant interference in the radar of the complex itself
      3. After the KAZ is triggered, there will be full milk on the main air defense system. The complex will stop functioning (due to interference) for 4-15 seconds.
      It is very easy to overcome such a KAZ and such an air defense
      4.There is practically no place where to put the KAZ, so as not to interfere, or if they put it, so as not to demolish half of the canopy of the air defense complex when fired


      1. The carrier is a separate, separate vehicle - KAZ-PVO will be a heavy and bulky piece. Not on the SAM itself.
      2. Other frequencies - no interference.
      3. Shrapnel charge? It will scatter to nothing in 500-1000 meters in 1-2 seconds. The same is the HE-ammunition with remote detonation. In addition, if the KAZ triggered, then the enemy's ammunition has already overcome the "upper" stages of the echeloned air defense, then either they end, or the KAZ-air defense will repel the blow.
      4. Clause 1
      1. -1
        10 November 2021 21: 03
        Quote: AVM
        1. The carrier is separate, a separate vehicle - KAZ-PVO b

        this is no longer Kaz. this is a separate BM against UAV
        active protection complex (KAZ), active protection system (SAZ) - this is a kind of protection of a combat vehicle (BM).
        "butter oil"
        So I imagine There is a shell, and it has a UAZ with a KAZ on 4 sides.
        Well, nonsense! No?
        Quote: AVM
        2. Other frequencies - no interference.

        what "others"? don't talk nonsense (sorry, my french)

        Quote: AVM
        3. Shrapnel charge? It will scatter to nothing in 500-1000 meters in 1-2 seconds.

        yeah. and he and the wreckage of the UAV and the gaseous products of the expelling charge.

        enough for the radar to reset. (To her, as I showed "Andrey from Chelyabinsk" - "passing" shells
        Quote: AVM
        it means that the enemy's ammunition has already passed the "upper" stages of the echeloned air defense,

        does not see these "ammunition" "the upper echelon of the air defense", and does not see the carriers
        Quote: AVM
        4. Clause 1

        see
        Quote: ja-ja-vw
        this is no longer Kaz. this is a separate BM against UAV
        active protection complex (KAZ), active protection system (SAZ) - this is a kind of protection of a combat vehicle (BM).
        "butter oil"
        So I imagine There is a shell, and it has a UAZ with a KAZ on 4 sides.
        Well, nonsense! No?
        1. 0
          11 November 2021 03: 19
          Quote: ja-ja-vw
          "butter oil"
          So I imagine There is a shell, and it has a UAZ with a KAZ on 4 sides.
          Well, nonsense! No?

          Not nonsense at all.
          Near the C300 / 400 there are these same "UAZ" vehicles with Pantsir, and by the way, they do not bother anyone with their radars. Yes, it will turn out not quite KAZ in its classical sense, but rather the last air defense echelon.
           and he and the wreckage of the uav
          easy to select even by speed and trajectory.
          does not see these "ammunition" "upper air defense echelon",

          Moreover, something must be done about it.
          After the KAZ is triggered, the main air defense system will have full milk. The complex will stop functioning (due to interference) for 4-15 seconds.
          It is very easy to overcome such a KAZ 
          it is even easier to overcome the missing KAZ.
          Better a break in work for how many seconds than the complex will die altogether.
          And yes, in terms of range, this very "milk" can also be selected simply by limiting the field of view for these 15 seconds, this is not a problem at all.
          1. +2
            11 November 2021 10: 59
            I will say even more that, according to the charter, an all-round defense with the participation of large-caliber machine guns, which are also used as the last line of defense, is engaged in around the S-300 division.

            As for the frequencies, even two adjacent divisions do not interfere with each other. they have different carrier frequencies. Moreover, there are usually two of them. And one of them does not work in peacetime from the word at all.

            Moreover, I don’t know now, but before the FULL composition of the S-300 division consisted of almost a hundred vehicles. Starting from the vehicles of the complex themselves and ending with armored personnel carriers / infantry fighting vehicles of security.
            I don’t think it’s less now. Therefore, a couple of extra cars will not change anything much.
            1. 0
              11 November 2021 11: 22
              Quote: alstr
              I will say even more that, according to the charter, an all-round defense with the participation of large-caliber machine guns, which are also used as the last line of defense, is engaged in around the S-300 division.

              belay
              soldier with machine gun vs
              Control radars + protective equipment and radar-radiation sensors / In most of the KAZ launchers (PU), anti-ballistic missiles are launched that hit RPGs, ATGMs and kinetic ammunition, including high-speed BOPS. However, the "forbidden" zone for their troops around the protected armored object is 30-50 m

              Quote: alstr
              As for the frequencies, in general, even two adjacent divisions do not interfere with each other,

              1. At what distance are the "adjacent" divisions?
              2.And whether this distance is chosen, incl. and so that the side and rear lobes of the diagram do not affect the receiving path of the neighbor's radar?
              Eh?
              Quote: alstr
              I don’t think it’s less now. Therefore, a couple of extra cars will not change anything much.

              Yes, at least add a herd of horses.
              Read the article?
              Radar range KAZ approximately 100 mm
              KAZ interception range from 5 to 10 m
              request
              Consequently, the KAZ is placed on a combat vehicle, or 4 Uziks surround the BM and rub against it with its sides. functional
              1. 0
                11 November 2021 11: 36
                Quote: ja-ja-vw
                .And whether this distance is chosen, incl. and so that the side and rear lobes of the diagram do not affect the receiving path of the neighbor's radar?

                By no means.
                The distance is selected from the performance characteristics of the missiles to provide mutual cover. And it is not the neighbor's side lobes that fall into the receiving tract, but the main one.
                Radar KAZ interferes with the work of the radar air defense system

                They didn't guess either.
                You have already been written here about such a thing as radio-technical compatibility, at the position of the ZRDN several studying and transmitting means are simultaneously working, and no one bothers anyone.
              2. +1
                11 November 2021 12: 00
                You don't need to laugh about a soldier with a machine gun.
                We were told at the department that in some exercises one target was shot down.
                In addition, there, in addition to the machine gun, you can also use MANPADS.

                As for the distance between divisions, there are no such minimum restrictions, since all divisions operate at different frequencies and do not interfere with each other.
                But there are maximum ones, tk. are determined by the range of communication between divisions. This is several tens of kilometers (more precisely, this is a state secret).
                Moreover, according to the rules for building a zonal air defense defense, each sector must be bombarded by at least two divisions.

                And even if they work at the same frequencies, the KAZ cannot interfere with work for one simple reason: the difference in power and directionality of the radiation. The radar power of the division is an order of magnitude higher than the power of the KAZ radar. Plus the directionality of the canvas. Therefore, it is more likely that the KAZ will not work than the radar station of the division.
          2. -1
            11 November 2021 11: 14
            Quote: Jacket in stock
            Near the C300 / 400 there are these same "UAZ" cars with Pantsir and by the way

            belay
            1 shell
            Target Range: 1,2 km - 20 km
            Target altitude: 15 m - 15 km
            2.KAZ (I take ONLY LONG INTERCEPTION complexes - HEAVY, LARGE, EXPENSIVE))
            Range to target: 5m-10m
            Target height: 2 m - 5 m

            1 + 2 you "jacket" the difference between KILOMETERS and meters feel?
            Do you realize the dimensions of the UAZ and the air defense combat vehicle?
            Where will they rub their sides?
            Quote: Jacket in stock
            with Pantsir and by the way, they don't bother anyone with their radars

            Please show me where they "stand like this"?
            Distance?
            Position them on a plane, mark the sectors of the radar operation and you will see that they do not affect (the receiving path will not be affected), or do you think that if EMEs intersect somewhere in space it will be a hindrance?
            now look at item 2
            Quote: Jacket in stock
            easy to select even by speed and trajectory.

            belay
            How long does it take to select?
            Why are you confusing a 50 aircraft flying at an altitude of 5 km and a cloud of gases, shrapnel, UAV fragments in a sphere 5 meters from the radar
            Quote: Jacket in stock
            Moreover, something must be done about it.

            Koneshno. But not so clever.
            UAV gunner (minivax) - even a balloon / dirizhbendel, UAV fighter UAV (or uterus Azhrostat / dirizhbendel) with a swarm of interceptors - REMOVED from the air defense missile system to the line of probable attack, several km away
            Quote: Jacket in stock
            it is even easier to overcome the missing KAZ.
            Better a break in work for how many seconds than the complex will die altogether.

            The radar station KAZ should work continuously, the KAKHZ itself in a fully automatic mode.
            According to the radiation of the KAZ radar, even without the LPI mode, they will quickly find, position and destroy it.
            The combat crew will be afraid to pee away or something even longer. The KAZ contract soldier will work without a head or stuffed.
            BM will have to book and not weak. I would not have sat in the control takubyukabin without armor, with this bad KAZ
            1. 0
              11 November 2021 14: 37
              Quote: ja-ja-vw
              Shell
              Range to target: 1,2 km - 20 km ...
              Do you feel the difference between KILometers and meters?

              I feel that.
              How are you going to cover these 1,2 km with the balloons brought forward?
              The fact that the author here called the KAZ air defense, but in fact the ultra-short-range complex will finish off everything that has leaked through the Knights and Armor.
              if EMVs intersect somewhere in space will it be a hindrance?

              Let me tell you a secret - always, at any point at any time, the mass of EMW constantly intersects.
              But your mobile phone does not bother you to watch TV. And the neighboring mobile phone does not interfere in the same way.
              Let me remind you about electromagnetic compatibility again. All devices are made so as not to interfere with each other, this is an axiom.
              The radar station KAZ should work continuously, the KAKHZ itself in a fully automatic mode.
              By the radiation of the KAZ radar, even without the LPI mode, it will be quickly found
              and the surveillance radar will not work?
              If not, then there will be no KAZ radar station either. Again, what prevents the KAZ from switching on only on command from more "senior" systems, only when they see the threat of a breakthrough.
              The combat crew is afraid to pee to be absent
              during the battle? Absent?
              And all the rest of the time it is disabled.
              Attention! You do not have permission to view hidden text.
              not a problem at all.
              It has long been decided by the correct placement of the KAZ cannons and the hardware blocking of the ability to shoot in the direction of the rest of the complex's objects.
      2. 0
        11 November 2021 05: 12
        We already have something similar in service. Anti-helicopter mines are the Boomerang complex and NATO also has anti-helicopter mines AHM-200-1, AHM-200-2, 4AHM-100. Developed on behalf of the United States Similar devices are placed to guard silo rocket launchers, guard airfields, as diversionary mines in areas of enemy airfields.
        The fact that KAZ-Air Defense will not receive distribution is understandable and clear, because it can cause more harm, it is necessary to arrange an exclusion zone around each defense object where no one should be.
        You know that if an air defense missile system loses its target, then it goes to a height and explodes there, it was done to minimize the damage to its own from the explosion, and then set a minefield somewhere in the center of its troops or the administrative center. So so idea.
        1. 0
          11 November 2021 12: 04
          Here one can only propose to connect such mines to the general air defense system. Those. we put mines, but they are either offline, or under the control of the divisional / regiment / brigade CPU. Then you can activate them on command and shoot down some of the targets.
          1. 0
            11 November 2021 13: 28
            It's all rubbish. If it does, it will be extremely limited. And I doubt it.
      3. 0
        11 November 2021 11: 56
        A "shrapnel charge" will not stop an already flying bomb, maybe the tank will survive and remain on the move, but as regards other equipment, a 15-meter detonation will severely damage the radar or air defense system.
    2. 0
      11 November 2021 04: 57
      Currently, the troops are saturated with radars of various types that can naturally interfere with each other, so that this does not happen or to minimize interference, there is such a direction as radar compatibility. Take any air defense system has several radars, at least two reconnaissance and target designation radars and a target guidance or illumination radar. Those. not the biggest problem.
      I agree with the 4th point. But not with everything, with a part. Why is it necessary to place KAZ on the SAM itself? Moreover, they are different, there are those that are located on one machine, and there are those for which a dozen cars are not enough. The same can be said about the radar, the air defense system will still be able to defend itself, but in the RTV with active protection it is bad.
  7. +1
    10 November 2021 20: 24
    Pantsir-S, destroyed in Syria after exhaustion of ammunition



    What kind of Shell is it?
    This is the installation of the Maysalun unguided tactical missile destroyed in Shayrat
  8. 0
    10 November 2021 22: 03
    So how does KAZ air defense differ from a short-range air defense system? In addition to the amount of ammunition?
    1. 0
      11 November 2021 09: 50
      According to the tasks performed, this is the air defense system, only rather short-range. It is listed as KAZ due to a similar principle of operation.
      1. 0
        11 November 2021 10: 39
        Quote: AVM
        According to the tasks performed, this is the air defense system, only rather short-range. It is listed as KAZ due to a similar principle of operation.

        "For hitting targets can be used shrapnel charges with metal balls or arrow-shaped striking elements, unguided ammunition with fragmentation or core warheads (warheads), with remote blasting on the trajectory."
        And then why is this mitrailleus better than a classic automatic cannon?
        Or do you think that one round from a smooth barrel can hit a drone, but one round from a rifled autocannon cannot?
        Yes, the autocannon's ammunition will be much larger, with the same mass and dimensions of the installation.
  9. +2
    10 November 2021 22: 08
    Quote: agond
    Against the bombardment of a mine with known coordinates by kinetic blanks, KAZ-air defense will be ineffective, so you need to either dig up the mines from a previously laid tunnel, or build many mines in a square-nesting way, as in China, and in general it is better to launch a rocket from a container from a supply

    from the cart? Yes, that's a thought ...
  10. 0
    11 November 2021 02: 04
    The idea of ​​using KAZ as the last line of defense (Last Line of Defense) is interesting in itself, but how effective such KAZ will be is a big question, especially in the case of the enemy using ballistic or cruise missiles equipped with nuclear warheads.
    Let's start with the fact that the radars of such KAZ should work continuously, because it would be very naive to rely on the fact that someone from above or from the side would promptly give information to the KAZ about the launching of a missile attack. And if so, the enemy has a great chance to detect and suppress the KAZ radar even before the start of the attack of the same silos with nuclear warheads, including by making an air nuclear explosion at an altitude exceeding the range of the KAZ's damaging elements. Even if this does not happen, then relying on the fact that KAZ radars will be able to detect, set on continuous tracking and select true targets from false ones in automatic mode is also not an idea. Well, the effective solution of these problems by automatic systems without the participation of a human operator is not yet ensured, although work in this direction has been carried out by all developed countries since the beginning of the 60s of the last century. In general, one of the fundamental principles of the functioning of military systems is human decision-making, including key decisions on the processing of radar information and information coming from other types of sensors (infrared, optical, sound, etc.).
    Otherwise, decisions will be made by the "nasty" Skynet and will take them until there is not a single Homo Sapiens left on Earth.
    Well, since the article mentions electronic warfare systems that are "our everything", it would be good to remember that the "opposite" enemy also has more than .... and that this enemy is developing all new electronic warfare systems at no less rapid pace than Russia. So he will be able to suppress low-power KAZ radars without much difficulty.
    In general, everything is as always.
    For every shield there is a sword, and for every sword there is a shield.
    1. 0
      11 November 2021 03: 31
      Quote: gregor6549
      The radars of such KAZ must work continuously, because it would be very naive to rely on the fact that someone from above or from the side will promptly give information to the KAZ about the missile attack that has begun

      For this purpose we have created an early warning system - a missile attack warning system.
      to detect and suppress the KAZ radar even before the start of the attack of the same silos with nuclear warheads, including by making an air nuclear explosion at an altitude exceeding the range of the KAZ damaging elements
      aha, and spend a whole nuclear warhead on this, having overcome all the previous echelons of missile defense. So so idea.
      human decision making, including key decisions on the processing of radar information and information from other types of sensors
      in the case of KAZ, everything is very simple. If it is decided that the war has begun, everything flying near the covered object (in our case, the mine) will be destroyed.

      it will be able to suppress low-power KAZ radars without much difficulty.
      here low-power will go to KAZ just to the benefit. The receiver of his radar is also low-power, more precisely, insensitive, he does not need to look for a target far away. You can even select the operating frequency in the atmosphere opacity window. Accordingly, the enemy will have to make the source of interference either very powerful, or drag it very close, substituting itself under the air defense of the previous echelons.
      1. 0
        11 November 2021 04: 54
        Uv. Konstantin in a jacket with a margin :))) I would gladly discuss with you on the topic of the article, but sisters came to me, who are honey. and they are going to drag me to all sorts of procedures. There is little pleasant in this, especially since now we have a very early morning, but what to do. Old age is not a joy. As one friend of mine says, they don't live that long. But I do not believe him and continue to flounder on the surface
        1. 0
          11 November 2021 06: 18
          Quote: gregor6549
          came the sisters who honey

          Well. Health to you.
  11. +1
    11 November 2021 09: 25
    Over time, UAVs will increasingly decrease in size and evolve.

    About our new developments against UAVs.
    Electric dome to protect against drones invented by Russian military scientists

    https://www.gazeta.ru/army/news/2021/11/11/16834729.shtml
    The Russian Nuclear Center has patented an anti-drone projectile with a cutting net.
    The projectile, being developed at the Snezhinsk nuclear center, contains a body with a set of projectile blocks arranged in series along the projectile axis, each of which contains explosives and striking elements - weights connected by flexible connecting cutting elements. Under the influence of explosives, not far from the target, the weights are fired in pairs and stretch the connecting elements behind them, from which the cutting network is formed.


    https://nplus1.ru/news/2021/11/03/net
    And Igor Esakov, Doctor of Physical and Mathematical Sciences, Deputy Director of the Moscow Radio Engineering Institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences, where especially powerful sources of radio emission have been developed for decades, believes that the future belongs to radio frequency weapons
    Radio frequency weapons are based on a very simple principle that has been known for a long time: radio waves are directed to the target area with such a flux density that the inductive currents they cause disable the electronics. At the moment, it is most convenient to do this in the microwave range, with a wavelength of the order of centimeters. Actually, a microwave cannon is a quite apt name for such systems ..

    https://www.gazeta.ru/science/2021/11/03_a_14167171.shtml
  12. 0
    11 November 2021 13: 57
    KAZ is cheap because it does not have guidance drives and is not far away - thin barrels, like on fireworks installations. In this case, it is not necessary that the direction of the shot (the axis of the barrel) intersects the trajectory of the incoming ammunition (i.e., a miss is quite acceptable). He is already close and the debris will get him anyway when blown up.
    If you shoot not at 10 m, but at 1000 m, then the miss with a stationary KAZ may be too large (i.e., the affected area by shrapnel will not block it), therefore, it is unacceptable, accordingly, you cannot do without drives, and the barrels will no longer be thin and lungs.
    The installation, in fact, turns into a multi-barreled single-shot cannon for each barrel with guidance drives and firing at 1 target per shot. That is, there is no need to talk about a short reaction time with such a rotating bandura. Do we really need this?
    1. 0
      11 November 2021 15: 06
      Quote: Conjurer
      If you shoot not at 10 m, but at 1000 m

      Then this is no longer a KAZ, but an ordinary anti-aircraft gun. And she does not need any single-shot barrels, the rate of fire of typical guns is more than enough. It's just that the ammunition should have a controlled fuse, and you won't have to reinvent the wheel.
  13. 0
    17 November 2021 21: 49
    A similar layout of launchers with missiles (4 blocks with an inclination of 45 degrees from the vertical, each oriented in its own 90-degree sector) even occurred to me - just not for the KAZ, but for the air defense complex of the near zone. In the center, between the blocks, you can place an aiming system that rises up on a telescopic rod. Ideas are in the air.
  14. 0
    17 November 2021 23: 23
    Quote: YOUR
    ATGM

    Duc KAZ should take them.
  15. 0
    20 December 2021 23: 29
    That is, if I understood correctly, the KAZ will cope where the rapid-firing barrels cannot cope now?
    I would venture to ask - why?
    I understand why tank KAZ cope with their task, but why KAZ will effectively protect mobile objects from large-caliber ammunition (UR "Harm", for example) or from threats that are at a sufficiently large distance from the protected object ...