Military Review

US experts told "the whole truth" about the perpetrators of the shooting of Polish officers in Katyn

170
Historical the truth is either there or it is not. In this regard, often the same historical event can be subjected to heated discussions, and each time each of the parties discussing this event will put forward facts convenient for itself. Perhaps this is precisely the situation that continues to develop around the so-called Katyn case.

US experts told "the whole truth" about the perpetrators of the shooting of Polish officers in Katyn


Recall that the investigation into the tragedy in Katyn (near Smolensk), where several thousand Polish officers were shot, as well as tens of thousands of Soviet citizens, can in no way come to a definite conclusion about who committed this crime. More recently, the world was convinced that the execution was the idea of ​​Stalin, which was carried out with the help of the NKVD fighters. It was this version that appeared at the end of the 80s, when Mikhail Gorbachev allowed himself to repent for the “crimes of Stalinism” against Poland. This version actually became official, and even subsequent heads of state (already speaking of the Russian Federation) have repeatedly stated that the shooting of Polish officers is a crime that was directly implicated by the Soviet authorities. An additional “confirmation” of the guilt of the NKVD troops was the film of the Polish director Andrzej Wajda “Katyn”, which told the world that it was “Soviets” who mass-shot the Polish military elite in the forest near Smolensk in the spring of 1940.

Based on this, some representatives of the families of the executed Polish officers filed a lawsuit with the European Court for the purpose of receiving material compensation from Russia for the most heinous crime. But the European Court of Human Rights in April 2012 unexpectedly rejected the demands of the Poles to award them compensation for the execution of their relatives in the Katyn forest. Such a court decision became a kind of precedent for those who did not consider the indispensable guilt of the NKVD and Stalin personally to shoot the Polish servicemen near Smolensk as an objective reality.

Publications about the intricacies of the Katyn case have appeared before, but since the decision of the ECHR on the tragedy in Katyn, many have looked from a completely different angle. The tendency has become more pronounced, which boils down to the fact that the guilt of the NKVD troops in this matter, at least, remains unproved.

In general, the situation demanded the following: either Poland, Russia and Germany, finally, abandon what is called tedding the dirty linen of history, and embark on a path of general reconciliation, or start new investigations of the Katyn issue.
Initially, everything went along the first path: Patriarch Kirill arrived in Poland in August of this year, which many called historical, a visit. The head of the Russian Orthodox Church met with the highest clergymen of the Catholic Church in Poland. Here are the words of Patriarch Kirill, which he said at the airport:

“I would like to express a feeling of deep satisfaction and joy in connection with the opportunity to step onto Polish soil and pay a visit to the Polish Orthodox Church, as well as to meet with the Catholic Church in Poland in the person of its hierarchs and clergy.
This is my first visit to the country with Western European culture after the election of the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and the first ever visit of the Patriarch of Moscow to Poland. This gives us the opportunity to meet with both Orthodox and Catholics in Poland, to reflect on our life: about the past, about the present and about the future. For all of us the common foundation is the gospel. I am deeply convinced that on this basis it is possible to resolve any misunderstandings that arise in the human community.
It is remarkable that the Christian culture is dominant in Poland and in Russia, which means that we have a common foundation and common foundation, including for solving the issues that we inherited from the past. ”


The essence of the visit was to ensure that a process of rapprochement, a focus on good-neighborliness and spiritual unity, which in recent years has been pretty confused with the help of political slogans, began between Russia and Poland. The Katyn problem in Russian-Polish relations has brought and brings painful dissonance.

Many have called the visit of the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia to Poland very productive and opening a new page in the history of the two states. It would seem that the path to reconciliation and general grief over the victims of historical regimes?

However, as usual, the rapprochement of Russia with anyone by some forces in this world seems completely counterproductive for their personal interests. Not a month passed since the visit to the Republic of Poland by Patriarch Kirill, as in the United States, “thousands of pages of evidence” were published that the NKVD servicemen were shot by Polish officers under Stalin’s secret directive. And in fact, really, where could the “sensational revelations” still come from, if not from the USA? In this country, they certainly know who is right and who is to blame for the shooting of Polish officers ... For obvious reasons, the American publication of “irrefutable evidence” caused a wide resonance and again led to friction over the possible reconciliation of the peoples of Russia and Poland. As the saying goes, "the Moor has done his work" ... Oh, this Moor ...

What evidence was presented by representatives of the National Archives of the United States, and should these publications be generally considered evidence of something?

So, the American archivists unexpectedly attended to the problem of the execution at Katyn. At the same time, a report on the "evidence" of the Soviet Union’s culpability in the Katyn case was conducted not anywhere, but in the building of the American Congress. In addition to the congressmen, representatives of the families of the executed Polish officers, as well as representatives of Polish diplomacy, listened to stories about the “irrefutable guilt" of Stalin and his henchmen.

As proof of the fact that the NKVD fighters shot Polish soldiers in the forest near Smolensk in the spring of 40, truly impressive materials were presented. Here are just some of them:
1. Several aerial photographs of German reconnaissance aircraft of the 1942-1944 type.
2. Films of the CIA on Katyn, including videos of the 1943 sample of the year.
3. US Department of State war crimes documents (1940-1944, 1945-1950)
4. The materials of the radio station "Voice of America", dated the end of 40-x - the beginning of 50-x.
5. Quotes from the embassy posts of American diplomats.
6. Goering's so-called documents
and a variety of other similar materials.

In general, as they say, the American archivists threw a “fresh” ...

Of course, all those present at this “historical accusatory process” were inspired by personnel made by German military pilots and Voice of America messages, which were made more than 70-ti years ago after the Nazi propaganda decided to extract political dividends from the shooting of Poles Katyn. Apparently, only one American specialists from the National Archives can know how the photos of the Katyn forest, taken by German pilots in 1943, can be evidence of the USSR’s guilt in mass executions ... It is also unclear why all of a sudden should believe the archival materials of the US Department of State, Moreover, many documents of this organization of the 40 model of the last century are based on documents of the German commission that worked in the Katyn forest.

In general, the wheel of history spun with a new force. By “evidence”, the Americans, if I may say so, experts added a lot of German photographs that show the exhumation process of the corpses of Polish servicemen. These photos clearly show how the representatives of the German commission are extracting from the half-rotten clothes of the executed Poles their documents. In addition, many documents have included samples of newspapers, the latest of which is dated May 1940. This, according to American archivists, is irrefutable proof of the guilt of the Soviet Union in the mass executions of prisoners of war.

However, here we can ask a very reasonable question by the American specialists: doesn’t the 10 point of the “Instructions on the procedure for keeping prisoners of war in NKVD camps” from September 1939 of the year exist? According to this paragraph, all prisoners of war are thoroughly examined before being placed in the camp. Documents found with them weapon and other prohibited items are withdrawn. So did the representatives of the NKVD not see the hundreds of prisoners of war documents proving their identity? .. Or someone from the NKVD decided to sabotage the super-secrecy of the operation being carried out ... It is surprising that the photographs do not have any imprinted samples of the nominal weapons of Polish officers.

Supporters of the theory of guilt of the troops of the NKVD say that the "Soviets" simply did not have time to withdraw all documents from the Poles during the retreat, and therefore the executions were carried out in a hurry. Well, yes ... Well, yes ... But what kind of rush in the spring of 40 can we talk about, because, as you know, then the Red Army was still not going to retreat anywhere ... Moreover, hurry is good when there is time for thousands of people to shoot exclusively from a pistol a direct shot to the back of the head ... Let's not forget that in June 1941, when the Red Army began its retreat inland, thousands of prisoners of Western Belarusian, Western Ukrainian and Baltic special camps were eliminated, but none of the executed documents later didn't b Badly found ...

If we talk about the newspapers literally found in every third Polish soldier who was shot, then special attention should be paid to the appearance of these newspapers. The fact is that the clothes on some corpses in Katyn graves almost rotted away, but the newspapers look as if they were thrown into the grave just a couple of days before the exhumation of the bodies began. Is the paper really so strong that it just perfectly resisted the soil moisture ...

By the way, if the same newspapers, the American "commission" considers "irrefutable evidence" of the USSR’s guilt in the shooting of Polish officers in the spring of 1940 (according to Stalin’s secret order issued for the original), then what about the other, let's say, paper certificates. For example, letters and postcards that are dated November of 1940 and even June of 1941 were found in the clothes of some of the executed Poles. In addition, there are letters that reach the camp from Warsaw in October 1940. Some kind of inconsistency is obtained. Did the "compassionate" fighters of the NKVD deliver letters to the graves of Polish officers who were shot, conducting exhumations long before the official exhumation ... Or maybe they specifically wrote letters to Poland on behalf of Polish officers to hide their crimes, and then also put envelopes in the grave ... Even If we assume that this is a plan of falsification of the NKVD, then why was it needed in 1940? Maybe one of the fighters foresaw the attack of Hitler's Germany on the Soviet Union in the summer of 1941? ..

The arguments that the splits, which the hands of prisoners of war were tied to and which were produced in the USSR, serve as clear evidence of Stalin’s guilt in the execution of the Poles are not clear either. Apparently, those who profess such an idea forget that, as a result of numerous studies, it was established that the same splits found in the graves of the Katyn Forest were only made by the USSR in the 1941 year, and until that time it was produced in Germany. Did the authorities of the USSR buy this splint from the Germans specifically for the execution of executions near Smolensk, feeling that Hitler would attack the Soviet Union once, at least Smolensk would lose two, lose the war three, and Stalin would have the opportunity to announce the crimes of fascism in the Katyn forest, demonstrated the German rope - four ...

Moreover, American archivists strangely bypass the theme of the fact that, according to archival documents declassified by Russia, Polish officers who were captured by the Soviet prisoners were sentenced from 3 to 8 years with placement in the ITL (labor camps). At the same time, prisoners of war fell into three camps: Tishinsky No. XXUMX-ON, Katynsky No. XXUMX-ON, Krasninsky No. XXUMX-ON. All of them were the places where prisoners were placed to work as part of the so-called ADB (asphalt-concrete areas) of the Vyazemsky camp. Polish prisoners on the basis of these documents took part in the construction of the Moscow-Minsk highway. So, Soviet documents tell that 1 of June 2 of the three camps were about 3 Polish prisoners of war, and because of the onslaught of the Nazi troops, so many people could not be evacuated ... From this it follows that the very 26 Poles turned out to be in the territories occupied by the Germans ... And where did they then disappear - a question for the American archivists, the FBI and the Voice of America ...
In general, this kind of inconsistency in the "evidence" published by Americans is just a dime a dozen. But for congressmen, in principle, it does not matter whether the evidence presented is objective or not. Their main task was not at all in this, but to drive a wedge between Poland and Russia in order to prevent Moscow and Warsaw from getting closer. Apparently, the theme of Katyn for a long time by interested parties will be exaggerated in order to keep Poland from Russia at an insurmountable distance.

Materials used:
http://www.km.ru/world/2012/09/13/istoriya-vtoroi-mirovoi-voiny/692147-ssha-pomogli-polyakam-vozlozhit-vinu-za-katyn-
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/news/55505.htm
http://www.katyn-books.ru/library/tayna-katiny-ili-zlobniy-vistrel-b-rossiyu10.html
Author:
170 comments
Ad

Subscribe to our Telegram channel, regularly additional information about the special operation in Ukraine, a large amount of information, videos, something that does not fall on the site: https://t.me/topwar_official

Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. erased
    erased 15 September 2012 09: 23
    +20
    At last! It turned out that a lie would not bring anything good. Yu. Mukhin wrote a whole book about the investigation of this case, he cited a number of links to documents. Whoever needs it, may well personally see these documents.
    Tired of already hearing that Stalin only did what he killed and planted!
    1. Fox
      Fox 15 September 2012 11: 59
      +8
      before Mukhin some Frenchman proved the same thing ...
      1. Generalissimus
        Generalissimus 16 September 2012 05: 05
        +2
        We were given documents of the third category


        “I am deeply disappointed,” the researcher of the Katyn issue, a specialist in Soviet archives, said to “Zhezpospolite”.

        Pyotr Zykhovich:
        - Have you read the documents declassified by the United States?

        Professor Krzysztof Jasevich:
        - Yes. I have been working on them for 24 hours. Of course, I could not explore the entire collection - it is huge - but I was already able to make up my mind about it.

        Pyotr Zykhovich:
        - So what?

        Professor Krzysztof Jasevich:
        - I am deeply and very disappointed. This is a third category document. Messy mixture. It looks as if someone swept the broom, mixed it and threw the Poles to make them happy. These papers are not of great value.


        http://www.rp.pl/art...-kategorii.html

        Piotr zychowicz

        Przekazano nam dokumenty trzeciej kategorii
    2. Click-Klyak
      Click-Klyak 15 September 2012 12: 08
      -13
      November 1940, Moscow. - Memorandum L.P. Beria I.V. Stalin about the plan for the creation in the territory of the USSR of a military unit from Polish prisoners of war No. 2 / 47b

      "... In the camps of the NKVD of the USSR, 18 Polish prisoners of war are currently held, including: generals - 297, colonels and lieutenant colonels - 2, majors and captains - 39, lieutenants and second lieutenants - 222, junior officers - 691, privates - 4 022 ... "
      Count.
      How many officers? 954 souls.
      There are no Germans on the horizon so far. Where are the officers? Where to go?
      1. Aleksys2
        Aleksys2 15 September 2012 13: 21
        +4
        Quote: Click-Gag
        including: generals - 2, colonels and lieutenant colonels - 39, majors and captains - 222, lieutenants and lieutenants - 691

        And how many should there be?
        1. Click-Klyak
          Click-Klyak 15 September 2012 13: 45
          -9
          Quote: Aleksys2
          And how many should there be?

          I quote.
          "The prisoner of war camps contain everything (not counting the soldiers and non-commissioned officers) 14 736 former officers, officials, landowners, policemen, gendarmes, jailers, besiegers and intelligence officers (over 97% by nationality are Poles).
          Of them:
          generals, colonels and lieutenant colonels - 295
          majors and captains - 2080
          lieutenants, second lieutenants, and coronets - 6049
          officers and junior commanders of the police, border guards and gendarmerie - 1030
          In prisons in the western regions of Ukraine and Belarus, a total of 18 632 are arrested (of which 10 685 are Poles), including:
          former officers - 1207 ... "
          So think about it. Where did they all go by November 1940?
          Hitler could not reach them with his bloody paws.
          1. Aleksys2
            Aleksys2 15 September 2012 13: 51
            +2
            Quote: Click-Gag
            I quote.


            Where are you quoting from? As of what date?
            1. Click-Klyak
              Click-Klyak 15 September 2012 14: 08
              -3
              I quote from the report of Beria March 1940.
              That is, from March to November, a decrease occurred.
              1. DIMS
                DIMS 15 September 2012 14: 15
                +5
                Decline is not necessarily shootings. For example, Jaruzelsky is arrested, then deported to Altai
                1. Taratut
                  Taratut 15 September 2012 16: 40
                  -3
                  You forgot - the report is talking about the possibility of forming in the USSR a military unit from Polish prisoners of war. Expulsion to Altai to join such a formation does not interfere.
                  And further. And in what capacity were they sent? Again to the NKVD camp? Where else?
                  If you read the article, the Poles did not transfer anywhere from the NKVD camps.
                  1. DIMS
                    DIMS 15 September 2012 16: 58
                    +5
                    Quote: Taratut
                    If you read the article, the Poles did not transfer anywhere from the NKVD camps.

                    Dear, on August 1, 1941, there was a special settlement 26 160 former prisoners of war (Information on the number of resettled special settlers-siege, refugees and families of the repressed (expelled from the western regions of the Ukrainian SSR and BSSR) as of August 1, 1941) Here are your "not translated"
                    1. Taratut
                      Taratut 15 September 2012 17: 39
                      -3
                      The rank and file and the besiegers do not bother us in this matter. It is only about officers and gendarmes.
                      1. DIMS
                        DIMS 15 September 2012 17: 43
                        +2
                        On the basis of what did you record all former prisoners of war as ordinary soldiers? And where are the besiegers, they were in a different category: 132 people are besiegers and foresters.
                  2. alexey garbuz
                    alexey garbuz 15 September 2012 23: 40
                    +2
                    Persons who refused (!) To take part in the work at the camps of the European part of the USSR were exiled to the Urals as supervised by the NKVD. There they successfully joined the Trudarmia and survived the Great Patriotic War. Until 56, they were all in the category of "disenfranchised" . are deprived of the right to participate in the political life of the country
              2. Aleksys2
                Aleksys2 15 September 2012 14: 24
                +2
                Quote: Click-Gag
                I quote from the report of Beria March 1940.

                This is you about the note of Beria No.794 / B from "..." March 1940 to "Comrade Stalin. About consideration in a special order of cases on prisoners of war ”with a proposal to shoot 25 700 prisoners of war and arrested Poles?
                1. Taratut
                  Taratut 15 September 2012 16: 54
                  -1
                  Don't like this note? For God's sake.
                  There were 10 camps - Ostashkovsky, Yukhnovsky, Kozelsky, Putivlsky, Kozelshansky, Starobelsky, Yuzhsky, Oransky, Vologda, Gryazovetsky.

                  The largest are Kozelsky 4500, Ostashkovsky 6500, Starobelsky 4000. So we are talking about the number of more than 15 thousand, not counting those held in prisons.
                  1. Aleksys2
                    Aleksys2 15 September 2012 18: 09
                    +2
                    Quote: Taratut
                    Don't like this note?

                    Fake can only be liked by clinical idiots.
                    Is this the number of officers? Or the number of officers and "judges, prosecutors and prison workers, intelligence agents, provocateurs, sieges, landowners, merchants"?
                    1. Click-Klyak
                      Click-Klyak 15 September 2012 20: 51
                      -3
                      Well, let's say you're right. But there were more than ten thousand officers for any. Where did they all go from March to November 1940?
                      1. Aleksys2
                        Aleksys2 15 September 2012 20: 59
                        0
                        Quote: Click-Gag
                        But there were more than ten thousand officers for any.


                        From where is the data?
                      2. Click-Klyak
                        Click-Klyak 15 September 2012 22: 45
                        -2
                        Subsequently, of the total number of 125 thousand prisoners of war in the NKVD camps, by November 19, 1939, 39,6 thousand people remained (of which about 10 thousand officers and more than 5 thousand police and gendarmes in the Starobelsky, Kozelsky and Ostashkovsky camps, who were shot in April May 1940 in Katyn, Kharkov and Kalinin
                        http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CF%EE%EB%FC%F1%EA%E8%E9_%EF%EE%F5%EE%E4_%D0%CA%CA%
                        C0
                      3. Dobrokhod Sergey
                        Dobrokhod Sergey 15 September 2012 23: 14
                        +3
                        Quote: Click-Gag
                        http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CF%EE%EB%FC%F1%EA%E8%E9_%EF%EE%F5%EE%E4_%D0%CA%CA%
                        C0
                        - you still would give the magazine "Murzilka" as a source of information. They can write there that Obama's wife is from Ukraine.
                      4. alexey garbuz
                        alexey garbuz 15 September 2012 23: 43
                        +1
                        Right! From Mariupol! There is a corresponding entry in the Book of acts of civil status. I read it myself !!!)))
                      5. Click-Klyak
                        Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 08: 08
                        0
                        Oh, got it. There were no Polish officers at all.
                        Here are the 900 people that Beria counted in November 1940 - that's all. So, nobody shot anyone - neither the Germans, nor the NKVD. There was no one to shoot.
                      6. Eugene
                        Eugene 16 September 2012 12: 03
                        0
                        Enough here "Ogonyok" of the 90s to quote!
                      7. Chaplain
                        Chaplain 16 September 2012 00: 05
                        +1
                        After these words, you think about the author’s mental health belay From where the information, and the Polish army at the time of surrender, was not numerous, and mostly ordinary soldiers and officers were arrested.
              3. Dovmont
                Dovmont 16 September 2012 20: 58
                0
                I know that part of the Polish population of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus was exported to Eastern Kazakhstan in the late 30s. Not for nothing in Ust - Kamenogorsk in the 42nd began to form the Polish units. I know this for a bit, because My maternal grandfather was asked to volunteer for precisely this part. But he preferred to serve in the Red Army.
          2. alexey garbuz
            alexey garbuz 15 September 2012 23: 36
            0
            Count the Poles in Kazakhstan, Altai, Siberia, Kyrgyzstan and other republics.
      2. Indigo
        Indigo 15 September 2012 16: 28
        +6
        heroically entered Anders' most combat-ready army and snapped through Iran to North Africa ....
      3. edge
        edge 17 September 2012 06: 00
        0
        The first division of the Polish army, created at their request, after arming it ......... spat on everything and in full force left through Iran to the Britons in 1.
    3. aviator46
      aviator46 15 September 2012 23: 10
      -6
      Putin, as an admirer of an "effective manager", is stalling for the declassification of the main documents on Katyn, which are 120 volumes of the investigation of the RF Military Prosecutor's Office.
      This fact convinces me that the NKVD was involved in the shooting of the Poles.
      1. Aleksys2
        Aleksys2 15 September 2012 23: 46
        +1
        Quote: aviator46
        and these are 120 volumes of the investigation of the Military Prosecutor's Office of the Russian Federation.

        Well, they are not classified.
        1. The “conclusion” of the commission of experts of the Main Military Prosecutor's Office in criminal case No. 159, on the conclusions of which is the charge of the NKVD of the USSR and the political leadership of the Soviet Union for the execution of Polish prisoners of war near Smolensk, does not meet the requirements of the criminal procedure law, is scientifically unreasonable, legally untenable and insignificant.
        2. The materials of the commission of N. Burdenko, together with the evidence obtained in the post-war period, suggest that the Poles were captured in the Kozi mountains (Katyn) near Smolensk by the Germans from August 1941 onwards and later during their occupation of the Smolensk region.
        3. The preliminary investigation of the Chief Military Prosecutor’s Office in 1990-2004 was incomplete and biased, with gross violations of the criminal procedural norms with obvious abuse of official position by the investigators and reflects the political attitudes of the Russian authorities. The conclusions of the GVP on the culpability of the death of almost 22 of thousands of Polish prisoners of war of the NKVD of the USSR and the leadership of the Soviet Union of the 40 of the last century are legally untenable.
        4. The decision to terminate criminal case No. 159, adopted by the Chief Military Prosecutor's Office on the execution of Polish prisoners of war near Smolensk, is subject to cancellation, followed by an additional preliminary investigation. If he confirms previous conclusions about the guilt of the NKVD officers of the USSR and the political leadership of the Soviet Union, the criminal case should be sent to the court to consider the issue of their rehabilitation and judicial evaluation of the evidence therein.
        1. Click-Klyak
          Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 08: 10
          0
          Where is the quote from? Opinion of Mr. Ilyukhin?
          1. Aleksys2
            Aleksys2 16 September 2012 10: 45
            0
            Quote: Click-Gag
            Opinion of Mr. Ilyukhin?

            Well, if Mr. Ilyukhin says that 2x2 = 4, this does not mean that 2x2 = 5, after all. Have you read the full review of the conclusion of the commission on the “Katyn case”?
            If not, then read, everything is sorted out there. http://rumera.ru/?p=1953
            1. Click-Klyak
              Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 11: 08
              +1
              Well, this is an old song in a new way. Ink color, from left to right and from right to left, whether typos in documents of the Central Committee are possible ....
              In fact, everything is simple.
              There is a report by Beria on March and November 1940.
              In March, the officers to hell - in November, they disappeared somewhere.
              And here begins the blurring of the question.
              1) a debate about how many officers were there at all (if they weren’t there, whom did the Germans shoot in Katyn?)
              2) or maybe they were sent to a settlement in Siberia (as soon as then the Germans could have shot them in Katyn?)
              I do not need to quote other people's opinions, I read a lot of them and I am familiar with everyone. Be guided by logic. Answer simple questions without tricks.
              1. Aleksys2
                Aleksys2 16 September 2012 11: 13
                +1
                Quote: Click-Gag
                In fact, everything is simple.
                There is a report by Beria on March and November 1940.


                It’s really simple,
                At present, it has been proven that “Beria’s note No. 794 / B” should be dated February 29, 1940. The previous and subsequent correspondence following the letter “No. 794 / B” correspondence sent from the NKVD secretariat in February 1940 served as the basis for this. . in the Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History (RGASPI) in working materials of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b), a letter of L.P. Beria with the outgoing number "No. 2004 / b" dated February 793, 29 (RGASPI, f.1940, op. 17, d.166, p. 621-86).
                Two subsequent letters - “No. 795 / b” to “Comrade Stalin. The progress of the work of well-known aircraft designers for the construction of aircraft ”and“ No. 796/6 ”were also registered with the Secretariat of the People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of the USSR on February 29, 1940. This was reported in answers No. 10 / A-1804 of December 31.12.2005, 10 and 120 / A-19.01.2006 dated January XNUMX, XNUMX, signed by Major General V.S., Head of the Office of Registration and Archival Funds of the FSB of the Russian Federation Khristoforov at the request of the State Duma deputy Andrei Savelyev.
                Naturally, a note from Beria with outgoing number 794 / B could only be signed and registered with the secretariat of the NKVD of the USSR on February 29, 1940. However, it does contain updated statistics on the number of prisoners of war officers in special camps of the NKVD (Prisoners of War Prisoners) of the NKVD Moscow - attention! - on the night of March 2 to 3, and were issued by the head of the UPV NKVD P.K. Soprunenko in the form of a "Checklist" only March 3, 1940 (Katyn. Prisoners. S. 430). These data could not get into the text of the document registered on February 29, 1940.
                Thus, in the explanatory part of Beria’s note, it is indicated that 14736 prisoners of war are kept in the NKVD camps, and 10685 arrested Poles in prisons, but 14700 prisoners of war and 11 arrested Poles are invited to be shot in the operative part. That is, 000 Poles are less POWs and 36 more arrested. Former long-term employees of the KGB of the USSR and the Central Committee of the CPSU believe that this is simply impossible in documents of this level! Any analogies with rounded “orders” for repression are unfounded, because in the specific case, what is the situation with Polish prisoners of war, Stalin demanded exact numbers.
                1. Click-Klyak
                  Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 13: 33
                  +1
                  Let's even believe what you wrote.
                  The question is not removed. Where did the Polish officers go before November 1940?
                  In general, is there at least one PROVEN case of falsification of state documents?
                  1. Aleksys2
                    Aleksys2 16 September 2012 15: 00
                    -1
                    Quote: Click-Gag
                    In general, is there at least one PROVEN case of falsification of state documents?


                    There is not one
                    1. Click-Klyak
                      Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 15: 36
                      0
                      Quote: Aleksys2
                      There is not one

                      Can you give examples?
                      1. Aleksys2
                        Aleksys2 16 September 2012 16: 31
                        0
                        Wuxia "special folder for Katyn" sample of 1991.
                      2. Click-Klyak
                        Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 18: 01
                        0
                        Quote: Aleksys2

                        Wuxia "special folder for Katyn" sample of 1991.


                        Ahhh. Clear. For your information, Gorbachev was not enthusiastic about these documents - that according to Katyn, that according to the secret protocol.
                        If you think that Yakovlev turned the matter without approval from above, then this is ridiculous. Among the editorial board that published the documents, say, Primakov. He's not a liberal, is he?
                      3. Aleksys2
                        Aleksys2 16 September 2012 20: 57
                        0
                        I won’t even comment. Everything is said earlier. I suggest you go to Poland and atone for sins before the Poles.
      2. edge
        edge 17 September 2012 06: 09
        0
        hear, and the Poles handed over at least one document about the fate of 120 Red Army soldiers captured in 000. They all froze, but we did not wait for an apology on their part, although the government issued an official request for their fate ......
        1. Click-Klyak
          Click-Klyak 17 September 2012 14: 06
          0
          By the way, the Germans also held Polish prisoners of war. 19 thousand.
          Strange, but the Germans for some reason did not shoot them.
          Why did you need to shoot Katyn? And if needed - why did they wait 2 years then?
          There was one interesting question. How do I know that Stalin forbade the transfer of officers to the Germans. And from the archives. Passed only ethnic Germans. Here are the documents.
          http://www.katyn-books.ru/archive/1940_2000/19402000.html#204doc
          1. Aleksys2
            Aleksys2 17 September 2012 18: 02
            0
            Quote: Click-Gag
            How do I know that Stalin forbade the transfer of officers to the Germans. And from the archives. Passed only ethnic Germans. Here are the documents.

            In accordance with the Decree of the Council of People's Commissars of the Soviet Socialist Republic No. 1691-415 of October 14, 1939, it was transferred in October and November 1939 to the Germans of prisoners of war natives of the territory of Poland, which went to Germany - 42492

            And where is it about ethnic Germans?
            And then, until what point did Starobelsky, Kozelsky and Ostashkovsky camps last?
            1. Click-Klyak
              Click-Klyak 18 September 2012 09: 39
              0
              Not about that. Stalin directly forbade the transfer of officers. There were many privates.
              Stalin sensibly reasoned that officers had more valuable material and should not strengthen the future enemy.
              So the version about the fact that the Poles were given the choice - to evacuate or stay - is rubbish.
              1. Aleksys2
                Aleksys2 18 September 2012 10: 00
                0
                In accordance with the Decree of the Council of People's Commissars of the Soviet Socialist Republic No. 1691-415 of October 14, 1939, it was transferred in October and November 1939 to the Germans of prisoners of war natives of the territory of Poland, which went to Germany - 42492

                Quote: Click-Gag
                How do I know that Stalin forbade the transfer of officers to the Germans. And from the archives. Passed only ethnic Germans. Here are the documents.


                Document where?
                1. Click-Klyak
                  Click-Klyak 18 September 2012 14: 23
                  0
                  http://www.katyn-books.ru/archive/prisoners/Docs/056.html
                  Passed only SOLDIER.
                  1. Click-Klyak
                    Click-Klyak 18 September 2012 14: 43
                    0
                    http://www.katyn-books.ru/archive/prisoners/Docs/108.html
                    Here's another. You read, do not be lazy.
                    1. Aleksys2
                      Aleksys2 18 September 2012 15: 54
                      0
                      Quote: Click-Gag
                      Here's another. You read, do not be lazy.


                      I am not too lazy to read.
                      "SUMMARY OF UPV NKVD USSR O NUMBER OF POWS AND JUNIOR COMMISSIONTRANSFERRED TO THE GERMAN AUTHORITIES AND ACCEPTED FROM THEM AS OF NOVEMBER 15, 1939 "
                      Was the junior command staff transferred?

                      1939, OCTOBER [3], MOSCOW. - EXTRACT FROM PROTOCOL No. 7 (ITEM 260) MEETINGS OF THE POLITICAL BUREAU of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks with the Decision on Prisoners of War
                      4. For prisoners of war, organize a separate camp. Officers from the rank of lieutenant colonel to the general inclusive, as well as major state and military officials, are kept separately from the rest of the officers in a special camp.
                      5. Scouts, counterintelligence officers, gendarmes, jailers and police officers should be kept in a separate camp.
                      ...
                      7. To oblige the Economic Council to allocate to the Prisoners of War Affairs Directorate for Prisoners of War 20 film transfers and 5 traveling printing houses.
                      8. To establish for prisoners of war officers a slightly improved ration against that established for soldiers.
                      9. To oblige the Central Union to organize food and manufactured goods stalls at the camps.
                      10. All prisoners of war, both officers and soldiers, are obliged to deposit all administration of the camps in custody for receipt above the norm established by the Office of Prisoners of War.
                      11. Place prisoners of war in the following camps:
                      a) to place generals, lieutenant colonels, large military and state officials and all other officers in the South (in Starobelsk);
                      b) scouts, counterintelligence officers, gendarmes, policemen and jailers - in the Ostashkovsky camp of the Kalinin region;

                      Read number 115
                      1939, NOT BEFORE NOVEMBER 22, * STAROBELSK. - "SUMMARY OF THE MOVEMENT OF PRISONERS OF PRIORITY, YOUNGER AND SENIOR COMMOSSTAVA IN THE STAROBEL NKVD CAMP AS OF NOVEMBER 22, 1939"
                      http://www.katyn-books.ru/archive/prisoners/Docs/115.html
  2. Redpartyzan
    Redpartyzan 15 September 2012 09: 28
    +5
    In my opinion, the correct idea was expressed at the beginning of the article. Poland and Russia just need to forget about the horrors of Katyn and build a relationship further, not paying attention but the wedge is driven into the United States. Personally, my opinion when shooting the Poles of the NKVD troops was not even close there.
    1. Brother Sarych
      Brother Sarych 15 September 2012 10: 07
      +14
      Do not forget - on the contrary, you need to remember this presentation is not the case! It is not the Poles who have suffered in this situation, this is a provocation against our country - why should this be forgotten?
      I can once again repeat - we can together honor the memory of those who died at the hands of the Nazis ...
      1. SASCHAmIXEEW
        SASCHAmIXEEW 15 September 2012 11: 37
        +8
        The Anglo-Saxons must be shown for their deeds that they have done around the world since the beginning of America's colonization for millions of Indians killed and driven into reservations, for coups in the "banana" republics, for Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Arkhangelsk, Murmansk, Vladivostok and for Vietnam yes for a lot of things, they marked everywhere, wherever you look, everywhere they shit, so the Anglo-Saxons need to repent before the World, and not the Russians before the pshek !!!!!!!!!!!!!! all the more so on Katyn it is necessary to sort it out and sort it out, and Gorby with those who apologized-- that's it ...... ki, they spoke for themselves, the people did not authorize them !!!! something like this, I think ..
        1. Fox
          Fox 15 September 2012 12: 00
          0
          add: Tokyo.
        2. Simon
          Simon 15 September 2012 19: 53
          0
          Yes Yes! It was the Anglo-Saxons who betrayed the Poles in the year 39, when the Hitler Youth attacked them.
        3. edge
          edge 17 September 2012 06: 13
          0
          Well this one .......... w still eats from Amerososovsky bowls.
      2. Click-Klyak
        Click-Klyak 15 September 2012 12: 18
        -11
        Immediately after the liberation of Smolensk, on September 27, 1943, N. N. Burdenko, a member of the Extraordinary State Commission for the Investigation of Nazi Atrocities (ChGK), addressed a letter to V. M. Molotov. In it, he announced the receipt of instructions from Academician Trainin to investigate German crimes against Soviet citizens in the Smolensk region and the execution of Polish officers in Katyn. Molotov wrote to Vyshinsky: “I haven’t told Comrade Trainin anything about Katyn. We need to think about when and how to tackle this matter ”(RGASPI, F. 82. Op. 2. D. 512. P. 10.) As a result, the chief surgeon of the Red Army and other employees of the ChGK went to Smolensk at the end of September 1943. , but they were not allowed into the Katyn case until the second decade of January 1944. The so-called “preliminary investigation” in Katyn was conducted by state security workers. It was headed by Vsevolod Merkulov, who in the spring of 1940 led the Katyn execution. It was they who prepared the false witnesses and put documents of a later time in several graves. By January 10, 1944 they had compiled an extensive certificate signed by Merkulov and Kruglov (GARF. F. 7021. Op. 114. D. 6. L. 1-53.) Only after that, on January 13, 1944, the Politburo of the Central Committee The All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks (Bolsheviks) decided "On the creation of a Special Commission to establish and investigate the circumstances of the shooting of German prisoners of war by Polish Nazi invaders in the Katyn Forest (near Smolensk)" led by Burdenko. Members of the Burdenko commission arrived in Katyn only on January 18, 1944, and on January 24 they already signed her message. A comparison of it with Merkulov’s help indicates the uniformity of their structure and conclusions. In them not only many formulations coincide, but even mistakes in writing the names and initials of witnesses.
        To the question about the Walters. Allegedly, the NKVD did not shoot from Walther.
        Here is the act of writing off ammunition in the Ulyanovsk NKVD.
        http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C1%EE%EB%FC%F8%EE%E9_%F2%E5%F0%F0%EE%F0
        1. Aleksys2
          Aleksys2 15 September 2012 14: 28
          0
          Quote: Click-Gag
          Here is the act of writing off ammunition in the Ulyanovsk NKVD.

          Not found ...
          1. Taratut
            Taratut 15 September 2012 16: 56
            0
            The article is big. Not at the very beginning.
            There is a photocopy.
            1. Aleksys2
              Aleksys2 15 September 2012 18: 22
              +3
              Quote: Taratut
              There is a photocopy.


              Yeah, thanks, I saw.
              And what do we have with a goose, mister teacher?
              Date of compilation: May 15 1938 of the year.
              Further write-off of cartridges:
              system "Nagan" - everything is clear here.
              7,65x17 mm caliber cartridge for the Browning M1900 automatic pistol - everything is clear too.
              6,5 × 15 Browning cartridge. The cartridge was designed for the new model of the small-sized pistol FN Browning M1906.
              And where are the cartridges under Walter?
              Walther P38 (Walter P38) - German self-loading pistol caliber 9 mm. The gun was adopted by the Wehrmacht in 1938 under the name P38 (German: Pistole). Over time, he replaced the Luger-Parabellum pistol (although not completely) and became the most massive pistol in the German army. It was produced not only in the Third Reich, but also in Belgium and occupied Czechoslovakia. Walter П38 was also a success among the soldiers of the Red Army and allies as a trophy weapon and as a melee weapon.
              Further, information for consideration:
              In the USSR, in 1934, the serial production of 6,35-mm Browning pistol cartridges was established at Plant No. 3 named after Volodarsky in Ulyanovsk, which was part of the Patrubvzryv trust. By their characteristics, the cartridges corresponded to foreign counterparts and were of low quality. The capping was marked as "Cartridges for the Browning pistol", GAU index: 57-N-112. The need for the production of these cartridges was caused by the presence of a large number of foreign pistols in the USSR, as well as for the TK pistol.
              1. Click-Klyak
                Click-Klyak 15 September 2012 19: 19
                -4
                The security officers particularly liked the 7,65 mm Walther, the PP and PPK models. In specialized weapons literature there are specific remarks on this subject. Here is a quote from A. Potapov’s handbook, “Pistol shooting techniques.” SMERSH Practice ”:“ In the mid-30s, a large number of 7,65 mm Walther RRKs were purchased in Germany for the Soviet special services. One of the first instructions for its use was the resolution of one of the top leaders of the NKVD "Very Good Machine".
                And the cartridges, the unlicensed production of which could not be established, were regularly purchased in large quantities abroad, primarily in Germany, from the Gecko company, directly and through shell companies. Even after Hitler came to power.
                http://www.sovsekretno.ru/magazines/article/2429
                1. Aleksys2
                  Aleksys2 15 September 2012 21: 16
                  +2
                  Until the 1917, hundreds of thousands of foreign pistols were accumulated in the hands of the population in Russia, and basically just under the “Browning” cartridge of the 7,65 mm caliber: 80 percent of all pistols in the world were designed for it in general. And already during the First World War, “trunks”, including under this cartridge, were imported at all. From one of Spain, for example, the Russian military department then received one hundred thousand pistols of the Browning system. And by the 1920 years, millions of foreign pistols of various brands roamed the country. The most running (after the Nagans) was a weapon specifically under Browning's cartridges.
                  Until the beginning of the 1930's, these “trellises” were in the hands of many “respondents”: military, security officers, party, Komsomol, Soviet, and economic figures. Even at cashiers and accountants! Often awarded such pistols. And indeed, in that nomenclature environment it was just as prestigious to have a browning, a walther or a pocket Mauser model, as it is now - to roll out on a BMW or a Mercedes. What a long way to go for examples: Stalin always wore a Mauser (the 1910 model of the year, in addition to which he had at least six more Walthers and a couple of Browning). The People’s Commissar of the Interior Nikolai Yezhov also preferred imported weapons - during his search, he found two Walters and two Browning. Lavrenty Beria preferred the Browning, Mehlis used the German Ortgis pistol of the 7,65 mm caliber, and Budyonny used the Walther. Stalin's wife, Nadezhda Alliluyeva, shot herself from a donated Walther. Vladimir Mayakovsky shot himself from the “pocket” 7,65 mm Mauser in his heart (he also had 7,65 mm Browning and Bayard)
                  The 7,65 caliber cartridge is not exclusively used by Walter
                  “In the middle of the 30-ies a large number of Walther RRK caliber 7,65 mm was purchased in Germany for the Soviet special services.

                  Which batch was purchased (how many pieces)? What units of special services were put into service (or do you think that we had only one special service - firing squad)?
                  1. Click-Klyak
                    Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 11: 10
                    0
                    Quote: Aleksys2
                    The 7,65 caliber cartridge is not exclusively used by Walter

                    Of course, it was about the use of pistols of this caliber.

                    Quote: Aleksys2
                    Which batch was purchased (how many pieces)? What units of special services were put into service (or do you think that we had only one special service - firing squad)?

                    Yes, in addition to this party there were many Walters. Have you read the article?
                    1. Aleksys2
                      Aleksys2 16 September 2012 11: 28
                      0
                      Quote: Click-Gag
                      Yes, in addition to this party there were many Walters. Have you read the article?

                      Where, when were there many Walters?
                      Traces of the use of Chekists in executions of foreign weapons are found throughout the country. There are also documents. For example, from the archive of the FSB Directorate for the Ulyanovsk Region: the act on the use of 1937 rounds of ammunition from August 1938 to February 1713, including 127 pistol rounds - 7,65 mm caliber and 185 - 6,35 mm caliber.

                      And how do you know that these cartridges went to shootings?
                      1. Click-Klyak
                        Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 13: 36
                        0
                        Quote: Aleksys2
                        Where, when were there many Walters?

                        even before 1917, hundreds of thousands of foreign pistols had accumulated in the hands of the population in Russia, and basically just under the Browning caliber cartridge
                        7,65 mm: 80 percent of all pistols in the world are generally designed for it. And already during the First World War, “trunks”, including under this cartridge, were imported at all. From Spain alone, for example, the Russian military department then received one hundred thousand Browning pistols. And by the 1920s, millions of foreign pistols of various brands roamed the country. The most running (after the Nagans) was a weapon specifically under Browning's cartridges.
                        Until the early 1930s, these "trellises" were in the hands of many "respondents": the military, security officers, party, Komsomol, Soviet, and economic figures. Even at cashiers and accountants! Often awarded such pistols. And indeed, in that nomenclature environment it was just as prestigious to have a browning, a walther or a pocket Mauser model, as it is now - to roll out on a BMW or a Mercedes. What a long way to go for examples: Stalin constantly wore a Mauser (1910 model, in addition to which he had at least six Walthers and a couple of Browning). The People’s Commissar of the Interior Nikolai Yezhov also preferred imported weapons - during his search, he found two Walters and two Browning. Lavrenty Beria preferred the Browning, Mehlis used the German Ortgis pistol of 7,65 mm caliber, Budyonny used the Walther. Stalin's wife, Nadezhda Alliluyeva, shot herself from a donated Walther. Vladimir Mayakovsky shot himself from the “pocket” 7,65 mm Mauser in his heart (and he also had 7,65 mm Browning and Bayard) ...
                        Since the mid-1930s, weapons were seized, confiscations went on during arrests - all these thousands of seized “trunks” were concentrated in the NKVD. Although the Chekists had enough of their own: they were bought abroad for bosses and for operational needs.

                        Quote: Aleksys2
                        And how do you know that these cartridges went to shootings?

                        For our question does not matter. It is important that they abound.
                      2. Aleksys2
                        Aleksys2 16 September 2012 15: 02
                        +1
                        Quote: Click-Gag
                        For our question does not matter. It is important that they abound.


                        For whatever it’s important, it’s important. The main consumption of cartridges is for Nagan.
                        No bullet and revolving cartridges in Katyn were found.
                      3. Click-Klyak
                        Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 15: 39
                        0
                        What prevented the Germans from pouring TT cartridges into the grave?
                        Goebbels himself expressed dissatisfaction with the fact that Heko shells were found. But the Germans did not begin to hide anything.

                        Quote: Aleksys2
                        Bullet and revolving cartridges in Katyn not found

                        As far as I remember, several are found. Corpses with bayonet wounds were also found.
                      4. Aleksys2
                        Aleksys2 16 September 2012 17: 19
                        +1
                        Quote: Click-Gag
                        What prevented the Germans from pouring TT cartridges into the grave?

                        And why did the NKVD need to use the Walthers and even with German cartridges? After all, they could calmly shoot both TT with domestic cartridges and Nagan. Why fence this whole garden with Walthers and German cartridges?
                      5. Click-Klyak
                        Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 18: 08
                        -1
                        You probably know the answer to this question. The executioners themselves - Tokarev and the company, explained.
                        Reliable Walters - TT junk (made from defective rifle trunks).
                        Walter has a low penetration ability. Shot in the head - a man fell and a minimum of damage. The bullet from the TT will hit its head and ricochets off the wall. If you need to shoot 15 thousand people - you will try to simplify the technology of this matter.
                      6. Aleksys2
                        Aleksys2 16 September 2012 21: 01
                        +1
                        Quote: Click-Gag
                        If you need to shoot 15 thousand people - you will try to simplify the technology of this matter.

                        Why is Browning bad with a 6,3 caliber?
                        I do not need to shoot 15000 people. You need this, and you’ll come up with all kinds of crap, Walters, transporters. If you take on faith everything that you rave about, then it took 2 minutes 16 seconds to kill one prisoner (getting out of the cell, delivering to the red corner, loading corpses)
                      7. edge
                        edge 17 September 2012 06: 24
                        +1
                        Quote: Click-Gag
                        You will try to simplify the technology of this matter

                        yes, I'll put a couple of machine guns
                2. edge
                  edge 17 September 2012 06: 19
                  0
                  and who is Potapov, he is an expert, a little man who drew a little book in the late 90s and cut down the loot on it cannot be given as an argument.
        2. alexey garbuz
          alexey garbuz 15 September 2012 23: 45
          0
          Already from there perley cartridges?
        3. rexby63
          rexby63 22 September 2012 17: 13
          0
          A certificate signed by a state security representative cannot be found in GARF. The devil, he is in the little things.
    2. antiaircrafter
      antiaircrafter 15 September 2012 20: 49
      +3
      Quote: Redpartyzan
      Poland and Russia just need to forget about the horrors of Katyn

      Whoever remembers the old - that eye is over, and who forgets - both of them !!!
  3. bask
    bask 15 September 2012 09: 31
    +11
    I always know that this is a complete mess. But why do I have to apologize to the Poles for the Patriarch, the president, I don’t understand.: 60 thousand prisoners tortured in Polish concentration camps in the 20s of the Red Army. Tens of thousands of Jews killed by the Poles. During the Nazi occupation of Poland. I didn’t hear the side of the Polish leadership.
    1. Click-Klyak
      Click-Klyak 15 September 2012 12: 26
      -10
      The word of R. Pikhoy
      "- Rudolf Germanovich, nevertheless, if we assume that some specific certificate of Beria could indeed have been falsified, then can all the other archival documents on this issue be falsified?


      - It's absolutely impossible. The documents of government organizations or the Central Committee have never been issued in a single copy, copies are made from them, which are stored in the State Archives of the Russian Federation, and in the Russian State Archives of Contemporary History, and in the Archives of Social and Political History, and in other departments. Well, then, let's say, you forge one or two documents, but where do you order hundreds and thousands of documents stored in dozens of departments that completely contradict this forgery? After all, the shooting of Polish officers is evidenced not only by the certificate of Beria or the same Shelepin, but also tens of thousands of other documents: convoy reports, lists of escorted, food invoices, reports on business trips of NKVD employees, certificates of ammunition expenditure ... All these piles of documents are kept. Or were they also faked? "
      http://www.kommersant.ru/Doc/1387089
      1. Aleksys2
        Aleksys2 15 September 2012 13: 07
        +3
        Quote: Click-Gag
        This is absolutely impossible.

        but also tens of thousands of other documents: convoy reports, escort lists, food delivery invoices, reports on official business trips of NKVD officers, certificates of ammunition expenditure ...

        As far as I remember, the decisive documents in the "Katyn affair" were the Kremlin documents from "closed package No. 1", testifying to the guilt of the Soviet leadership for the shooting of Polish prisoners of war in the spring of 1940.
        However, the blatant negligence in the design of these documents, unacceptable for the Politburo, errors and contradictions in their contents, mysterious interruptions in storage make us raise the question of the degree of reliability and reliability of the information contained in the Kremlin documents.
        reports of the convoy, escort lists, invoices for the issue of food, reports on official business trips of the NKVD officers, certificates of ammunition consumption ... All these bales of documents are stored.

        They are stored, then they are stored, but no one publishes them.
        1. Click-Klyak
          Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 11: 11
          0
          Quote: Aleksys2
          They are stored, then they are stored, but no one publishes them.

          Consider unnecessary. An official point of view is expressed. The head of the State Archive confirmed the existence of such documents.
          1. Aleksys2
            Aleksys2 16 September 2012 11: 29
            0
            Quote: Click-Gag
            The head of the State Archive confirmed the existence of such documents.

            Quote to the studio.
            1. Click-Klyak
              Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 13: 37
              0
              Quote: Aleksys2
              Quote to the studio.

              http://www.kommersant.ru/Doc/1387089
              1. Aleksys2
                Aleksys2 16 September 2012 15: 04
                +3
                Pykhoya also engaged in counterfeiting.
                1. Click-Klyak
                  Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 15: 41
                  0
                  Quote: Aleksys2
                  Pihoya and engaged in counterfeiting

                  Such versions are conspiracy theology. All enemies. Putin, Pikhoya, Medvedev. Everyone lies. Ilyukhin and Aleksys2 know the truth.
                  All documents are forged.
                  It’s like in that joke that KAMAZs are actually secret fighters.
      2. Aleksys2
        Aleksys2 15 September 2012 13: 33
        0
        Quote: Click-Gag
        but also tens of thousands of other documents: convoy reports, escort lists, food delivery bills, reports on official business trips of NKVD officers,

        “Consideration of cases at the CCA” meant, in particular, that Poles were transferred from potentially “their” prisoners of war to the much less privileged category of ordinary prisoners. But they couldn’t even talk about any of their execution - the Special Conference, until November 1941, did not endure death sentences at all.
        Meanwhile, by the end of January 1940, a significant part of the more than 6 thousand investigation cases instituted in the Ostashkovsky camp had already been transferred to the Special Meeting - and on February 1 of 1940 of the year, Soprunenko and Belolipetskiy transferred the code for Beria:
        "The investigation of the Ostashkovsky camp has been completed, 6 thousand 50 cases have been formalized. A special meeting has begun. We will finish the dispatch on February 8." A report on the work done was made by Nekhoroshev.

        In this regard, in Moscow, a meeting of employees of the UPV, the Main Directorate of the Convoy Troops (GUKV NKVD of the USSR), and the Ostashkov Camp was held to develop measures for the sending of prisoners of war. Here is how the two-day meeting held by the 1 special department describes, the head of the Special Division of the Ostashkov camp, State Security Lieutenant G.V. Korytov, reports to the head of the Special Department of the NKVD of the Kalinin Region Colonel V.P. Pavlov:
        "The main questions were:
        1. Preparation in the camp of convicts for sending.
        2. Where to announce the decisions of the Special Meeting.
        3. Where to hand in the convoy of convicts - in a camp or train station.
        4. Prompt service on the go.
        5. Housekeeping ...
        Based on the sentiments of prisoners of war, their numbers, and mainly bearing in mind that this entire contingent is an active [ontr] -p [evolutionary] force, I expressed my thoughts:
        1. Preparation for shipment should be carried out in the same spirit as previously made when shipped to Germany and the regions of our territory, i.e., observing the principle of fraternity, which will serve as an excuse for convicts to think that they are being prepared for shipment home.
        2. In order to avoid all sorts of excesses and bagpipes, the decision of the Special Conference here is not to declare in any case, but to declare such in the camp where they will be kept. If, on the way from the [military] prisoners, there are questions about where they are being taken, then the convoy can explain one thing to them: "To work in another camp."
        3. The convicts must be surrendered by convoy, as before, in our camp.
        4. In terms of operational services on the way, I asked the Meeting to add this responsibility with the O [special] department, based on the small number of staff ... In this spirit, the project for organizing the dispatch was written and submitted for approval by the Deputy. People's Commissar Comrade MERKULOV ... How soon will we unload? Of the 6 cases presented by us, 005 have been considered so far, the terms are 600-3-5 years (Kamchatka), further consideration by the People's Commissar has so far been suspended. But the conversations are such that in March we must thoroughly unload and prepare for the reception of the Finns. There is an order from the People's Commissar for the imprisonment of several categories of prisoners of war in local prisons. In this regard, the head of the Department for KO (ie, the NKVD of the Kalinin region. - N. L.) has a directive of 8.II.29, No. 40/25, which I ask you to familiarize yourself with. "
        1. Click-Klyak
          Click-Klyak 15 September 2012 13: 48
          -5
          Verbose and interesting. But the question remains. Where did the Polish officers go by November 1940?
          Beria claims that they are no longer there.
          1. Aleksys2
            Aleksys2 15 September 2012 14: 06
            +7
            Quote: Click-Gag
            did Polish officers disappear by November 1940?

            Of the 6 005 cases we have submitted, 600 has been considered so far, the terms are 3-5-8 years (Kamchatka)
            Sent to Kamchatka.
            During October - November of the 1939 of the year, Ukrainians from Belarus, Poles permanently residing in the Novogrudok Voivodeship, Polesie, Volyn, Lviv and other regions of Western Belarus and Western Ukraine were sent from Soviet camps to the homes of 42 400.
            Prisoners of war - residents of the part of Poland that was in the hands of the Germans, were to be sent to the Kozelsky and Putivl camps and were to be kept there until the issue with the German side was resolved to send them home.
            In mid-October, on the initiative of the German side, an agreement was reached on the exchange of prisoners of war in accordance with their place of residence before the war. On October 14, the SNK of the USSR adopted Decree No.1691 — 415, according to which, in October and November 1939, 42 492 POWs were transferred to the Germans. The transfer was carried out at two border points: at Brest-Litovsk and between the Yagotin station and the city of Dorogusk.
            And besides:
            In the middle of 1939, a Polish émigré government formed in the French city of Angers, DECLARED THE WAR OF THE USSR (the reason for such a strange "decisive step" was the decision of the USSR on the official inclusion of the Vilnius region into Lithuania).
            Later, in the winter of 1939-1940, the Polish émigré government even decided to send the Polish brigade to help Finland fighting against the USSR. The Polish government agreed to this on the 29 of January 1940 of the year, and on February 9 the formation of a separate mountain brigade for this purpose began.
            Those who left the USSR with the Anders army numbered not many, not few, but 114732 people, including 76110 military personnel (Katyn. Shooting. S. 413). In the two Polish armies, the Troops of Poland Z. Burling, and subsequently M. Rohl-Zhymersky, at the end of the war fought not “some”, but 400 of thousands of soldiers, a significant part were Poles captured or interned in 1939. This was the fourth army in the anti-Hitler coalition, and only the positions of the United States and Great Britain did not allow Poland to take pride of place among the winning countries that accepted the surrender of Nazi Germany. But the Polish Army was the only foreign army that was honored, along with the Red Army, to pass along Red Square at the Victory Parades in 1945 and 1985.
          2. Aleksys2
            Aleksys2 15 September 2012 23: 36
            0
            And in addition:
            The news of the Red Army’s appearance in Poland came as a surprise to OKW. Walter Warlimont - Deputy Chief of Operations of the High Command of the Armed Forces of Germany (OKW) - was notified of the beginning of the Red Army's speech by Ernst Kestring for how many hours before it entered Polish territory, and the latter himself learned about it at the last moment. The representative of the OKW at Hitler’s headquarters, Nikolaus von Vormann, gives information about an emergency meeting at Hitler’s headquarters with the participation of senior German political and military leaders, which considered possible options for the actions of German troops, at which the start of hostilities against the Red Army was considered inappropriate.
            And what preliminary arrangements can we talk about?
            1. Click-Klyak
              Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 18: 10
              0
              Nonsense is complete. There are transcripts of negotiations between Schulenberg and Molotov literally by the day. They even discussed how the USSR would explain the entry of the Red Army into Poland. It was supposed to say that we are protecting the local population from the Germans. Hitler objected. We immediately proposed a compromise.
              1. Aleksys2
                Aleksys2 16 September 2012 21: 02
                +1
                And there is life on Mars ...
                1. Click-Klyak
                  Click-Klyak 17 September 2012 13: 40
                  0
                  Doubt it? Sorry for the time, but if you want - I will find and lay out.
                  1. Aleksys2
                    Aleksys2 17 September 2012 18: 03
                    0
                    Quote: Click-Gag
                    but if you want - I will find and lay out


                    Find and lay out.
                    1. Click-Klyak
                      Click-Klyak 18 September 2012 09: 45
                      0
                      It's all here. All telegrams, conversations, etc.
                      http://lib.ru/HISTORY/FELSHTINSKY/sssr_germany1939.txt
                      1. Aleksys2
                        Aleksys2 18 September 2012 10: 14
                        0
                        Quote: Click-Gag
                        It's all here. All telegrams, conversations, etc.


                        Are you laughing
                        The collection is based on two types of sources. First are
                        diplomatic documents of the German Foreign Office. In 1948 they were published in German and English by the US Department of State *. All diplomatic documents used in this collection are adapted from this publication of the US government. In addition to this, the collection includes some materials published in the Pravda newspaper.
                      2. Click-Klyak
                        Click-Klyak 18 September 2012 14: 27
                        0
                        Oh yes, of course.
                        The documents of the German Foreign Ministry do not count. Soviet documents (the same reference by Beria) - forged. All that does not suit you is fakes.
                        The collection "Subject to Publication: USSR - Germany. 1939-1941" is one of the most authoritative collections of documents to which all historians, both liberal and not so, refer.
                        If we do not take it into account, then what can be referred to?
                      3. Aleksys2
                        Aleksys2 18 September 2012 16: 05
                        0
                        Quote: Click-Gag
                        The documents of the German Foreign Ministry do not count.

                        These are not documents of the German Foreign Ministry, these are American photocopies (which even the International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg did not consider).
                        We will not consider them here, it is enough to recall the opuses of the type "German-Russian Treaty", Molotov's signature in Latin letters.
      3. PSih2097
        PSih2097 15 September 2012 16: 01
        +1
        Click-Klyak, the merits of the balian (ballian) do not allow you to sleep peacefully? By the way, the only worthy opponent on the topic of Katyn ...
        1. Taratut
          Taratut 15 September 2012 16: 56
          0
          I don’t know who it is.
  4. with
    with 15 September 2012 09: 33
    +2
    The historical truth is either there or not.

    There’s nothing to add!
    Especially according to American textbooks ...
    1. Dovmont
      Dovmont 16 September 2012 21: 11
      0
      History is not a science, but a pile of bona fide delusions of intentional distortion !!!
      Olkin O.V. - i.e. I am!
  5. Wertynskiy
    Wertynskiy 15 September 2012 09: 42
    +16
    For me personally, no research or evidence is needed. God himself intervened in this investigation, "successfully" landing the plane with the Polish delegation.
    1. Brother Sarych
      Brother Sarych 15 September 2012 10: 08
      +7
      The sky itself could not stand the concentration of hatred on this plane ...
    2. Click-Klyak
      Click-Klyak 15 September 2012 11: 47
      -13
      It is simply amazing what abominations are printed and approved here.

      Quote: Brother Sarich
      The sky itself could not stand the concentration of hatred on this plane

      And what concentration of stupidity and hatred I have observed here ....
      1. Aleksys2
        Aleksys2 15 September 2012 12: 16
        +4
        Quote: Click-Gag
        And what concentration of stupidity and hatred I have observed here ....

        What did you mean? There is something to object to the case, object, but no, so be silent in a rag.
        1. Click-Klyak
          Click-Klyak 15 September 2012 12: 33
          -4
          I already read here (and comments were massively approved by the pluses)
          1) what is right Hitler destroyed Jews
          2) what is right Hitler and Stalin jointly attacked Poland
          3) the joy of the crashed plane with the Polish leadership
          etc.
          Do you think this is normal? And I can object, read my comments.
          1. Brother Sarych
            Brother Sarych 15 September 2012 15: 09
            +4
            This is not joy, but a statement of fact ...
            Hitler and Stalin did NOT attack together Poland, the USSR returned the lands illegally held by Poland after its collapse ...
            Nobody anywhere here said that the Jews or anyone else Hitler was destroying "correctly", it's another matter that everything there is not at all simple ...
            Continue? Well, who is driving the blizzard here?
            1. Taratut
              Taratut 15 September 2012 16: 57
              0
              I reported such facts to the administration of the forum and comments were deleted. So there was a reason. Do you agree?
            2. FIMUK
              FIMUK 17 September 2012 15: 42
              0
              This is not joy, but a statement of fact ...
              The USSR returned the lands illegally held by Poland after its collapse ...
              ..................................
              do not consider it work, explain to the USSR there were historically justified claims to Poland in territorial terms?
              The USSR was not the legal successor of Tsarist Russia where Poland was part of the country.
              1. DIMS
                DIMS 17 September 2012 15: 44
                0
                Google "Curzon Line"
              2. Aleksys2
                Aleksys2 17 September 2012 18: 09
                0
                Quote: FIMUK
                do not consider it work, explain to the USSR there were historically justified claims to Poland in territorial terms?
                The USSR was not the legal successor of Tsarist Russia where Poland was part of the country.

                Have you heard about the Soviet-Polish war in 1919-1921 during the Civil War? What does Tsarist Russia have to do with it? Read the source.
                The Polish campaign of the Red Army (September 17 - September 29, 1939) is a military operation of the Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army in the eastern regions of Poland, which became part of it following the results of the Riga Peace Treaty of 1921.
          2. 53-Sciborskiy
            53-Sciborskiy 15 September 2012 17: 20
            +3
            Quote: Click-Gag

            2) what is right Hitler and Stalin jointly attacked Poland
            Absolute ignorance and no knowledge of history.
            1. Brother Sarych
              Brother Sarych 15 September 2012 17: 24
              +1
              No, this is not ignorance, not at all - the "comrade" needs to prove that black is white, and vice versa ...
        2. Dovmont
          Dovmont 16 September 2012 21: 15
          0
          Click-Gag - Insults begin where arguments end
      2. 53-Sciborskiy
        53-Sciborskiy 15 September 2012 17: 17
        +1
        Quote: Click-Gag
        And what concentration of stupidity and hatred I have observed here ....
        I read all your comments, but I apologize, I didn’t find anything clever in them.
      3. loc.bejenari
        loc.bejenari 15 September 2012 19: 40
        -4
        You are from a bunch of chauvinists on whom the word Katyn acts like a red rag, want something else laughing
        fear god
        this is a pointless argument -Nothing you can prove here -white is black
        1. Aleksys2
          Aleksys2 15 September 2012 21: 19
          +1
          Quote: loc.bejenari
          white is black

          But some are trying to prove that black is white.
    3. Larus
      Larus 15 September 2012 12: 32
      +4
      By the way, the Polish opposition, led by the brother of the deceased, released a report, according to which it was an explosion of the plane from the inside. So wait ten years later "irrefutable" evidence of our country's involvement in this disaster.
      1. Click-Klyak
        Click-Klyak 15 September 2012 13: 50
        -1
        I don’t care.
        Will appear so appear. If you are interested in my opinion, this plane crash was completely unprofitable for Putin. He has a lot of things on his conscience, but here he is not involved.
        1. Brother Sarych
          Brother Sarych 15 September 2012 15: 10
          +2
          And what does Putin have to do with it? Putin also humiliated the country before the Poles, and more than once, so that the visit of these ... he was only profitable ...
        2. 53-Sciborskiy
          53-Sciborskiy 15 September 2012 17: 22
          +1
          Quote: Click-Gag
          Putin was completely unprofitable this plane crash. He has a lot of things on his conscience, but here he is not involved.
          Yes, you, father, expert. hi
  6. bask
    bask 15 September 2012 10: 00
    +1
    We can’t build relations with Poles. Why apologize to them, I don’t understand why.
    1. nickname 1 and 2
      nickname 1 and 2 15 September 2012 11: 39
      +3
      bask,
      Gorbachev should apologize for having self-confidently and irresponsibly stated that, yes, we figured it out, this the NKVD did! Apologize to his people, first of all !!! fool
      And relations with the Poles will be - much later! With a new generation.

      To the author = ++++++++++++++++
    2. Geton
      Geton 15 September 2012 12: 03
      +3
      Quote: bask
      bask
      Absolutely right! Their hatred of us is simply irrational, and does not lend itself to any logical explanation.
      1. loc.bejenari
        loc.bejenari 15 September 2012 19: 43
        -7
        right - what kind of logic - tens of thousands of people were torn apart by a couple with Hitler, and then the communist regime was imposed for 45 years
        and after all this they don’t like Russia
        here are scoundrels
        1. Aleksys2
          Aleksys2 15 September 2012 21: 22
          +5
          Quote: loc.bejenari
          paired with Hitler

          Are you talking about Poland in Czechoslovakia? If not, justify your statement.
          The USSR did not attack such a country Poland (it already was not there then).
          1. Click-Klyak
            Click-Klyak 15 September 2012 22: 48
            -2
            Quote: Aleksys2
            The USSR did not attack such a country Poland (it already was not there then).

            Seriously? And at what point did such a state disappear?
            1. Aleksys2
              Aleksys2 15 September 2012 23: 28
              +4
              Quote: Click-Gag
              And at what point did such a state disappear?

              At that moment, when the Polish government fled from its country.
              On September 1, President of the country I. Moscitsky left Warsaw; on September 4, the evacuation of government agencies began. On 5 of September, the government left Warsaw, and on the night of September 7, the Commander-in-Chief E. Rydz-Smigly.
              9 — On 11 on September, the Polish leadership negotiated with France for asylum for the government. The gold reserves of Poland on September 13-16 were transported to Romania. On September 16, the Polish-Romanian negotiations began on the transit of the Polish leadership to France, and on September 17 the government moved to Romania, where it was interned.
              In 3: 00 On September 17, the Deputy People's Commissar of Foreign Affairs of the USSR V.P. Potemkin read to the Polish Ambassador in Moscow V. Grzybowski a note, It said:
              The Polish-German war revealed the internal failure of the Polish state. During the ten days of military operations, Poland lost all of its industrial areas and cultural centers. Warsaw, as the capital of Poland, does not exist anymore. The Polish government broke up and shows no signs of life. This means that the Polish state and its government have virtually ceased to exist. Thus, the treaties concluded between the USSR and Poland terminated. Left to itself and left without leadership, Poland turned into a convenient field for all sorts of accidents and surprises that could create a threat to the USSR. Therefore, being hitherto neutral, the Soviet government cannot be more neutral about these facts.
              The Soviet government cannot also be indifferent to the fact that half-blood Ukrainians and Belarusians living in Poland, abandoned to their fate, remain defenseless.
              In view of this situation, the Soviet government ordered the Red Army High Command to order the troops to cross the border and take under their protection the life and property of the population of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus.
              At the same time, the Soviet government intends to take all measures to rescue the Polish people from the ill-fated war, where they were plunged by their unreasonable leaders, and give them the opportunity to live a peaceful life.
              Accept, Mr. Ambassador, the assurances of perfect respect for you. People's Commissar of Foreign Affairs of the USSR V. Molotov
            2. igordok
              igordok 15 September 2012 23: 43
              0
              Quote: Click-Gag
              Seriously? And at what point did such a state disappear?

              1 September 1939 soldier
              1. Click-Klyak
                Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 08: 15
                -2
                Quote: igordok
                1 September 1939

                Seriously?

                Quote: Aleksys2
                At 3:00 on September 17, the Deputy People's Commissar of Foreign Affairs of the USSR V.P. Potemkin read to the Polish Ambassador in Moscow V. Grzhibovsky a note, It said

                I am aware of what was said in the Soviet notes. But there are international laws. The country's sovereignty does not disappear either in the event of the departure of the government, or in the event of the fall of the capital, or in the event of the occupation of "industrial areas and cultural centers."
                1. Aleksys2
                  Aleksys2 16 September 2012 10: 55
                  +1
                  Quote: Click-Gag
                  But there are international laws. The country's sovereignty does not disappear either in the event of the departure of the government, or in the event of the fall of the capital, or in the event of the occupation of "industrial areas and cultural centers."

                  Yes, what are you? Not really? How wrong I was! You can cite a rule of international law in this regard, I will be very grateful if you indicate which international law governs the issues of state sovereignty, and at the same time give a definition of what a state is.
                  Note to you:
                  NONE OF THE STATES IN THE WORLD IN THE 1939 YEAR HAS RECOGNIZED THE ACCESSION OF THE RKKA TO POLAND AS AN AGGRESSION AGAINST POLAND.
                  1. Click-Klyak
                    Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 11: 26
                    0
                    Since Poland, although defeated in the war, however, its rights
                    Since the government left the country without signing the act of state and military surrender, then, in accordance with the III Hague Convention of 1907 on the opening of hostilities, it did not automatically lose its sovereignty.
                    http://www.bibliotekar.ru/pakt-molotov-ribbentrop/4.htm
                    1. Aleksys2
                      Aleksys2 16 September 2012 11: 51
                      +1
                      Quote: Click-Gag
                      in accordance with the III Hague Convention of 1907 on the opening of hostilities, it did not automatically lose its sovereignty.

                      The articles of the "Convention on the Laws and Customs of War on Land (1907)" (The Hague Conventions of 1907) do not say anywhere about the loss of sovereignty (this is the author's speculation). But there is another norm:
                      Article 43
                      With the actual transfer of power from the hands of the legitimate Government to the enemy occupying the territory, the latter is obliged to take all measures depending on him to ensure, as far as possible, to restore and ensure public order and public life, respecting the laws existing in the country, should there not be an insurmountable obstacle .
                      On September 17, 1939, Poland did not have a legitimate government, because on September 17, the Polish government moved to Romania, where it was INTERNED.
                      Internment (lat.internus - to settle): forced detention, resettlement or other restriction of freedom of movement established by one belligerent for citizens of another belligerent located on its territory or for citizens of another belligerent located in the territory occupied by the first belligerent, or a neutral state for military personnel of warring parties.
                      The internment of civilians and military personnel in the territory of the enemy country is aimed at preventing the participation of these persons in the war against this state (which is possible if these persons return to their country).
                      The internment of civilians in the territory occupied by the enemy country is aimed at ensuring the security of the occupying forces from hostile actions of potentially dangerous persons.
                      The internment of military personnel in the territory of a neutral country is aimed at maintaining the neutrality regime of that country (since permission to find military personnel, weapons or military equipment of one of the parties on the territory of the state can be considered by the other party as participating in the war on the side of the enemy, that is, violation of neutrality)

                      Sovereignty (the ability of a state to appear in the international legal field as a legal entity recognized by other states);
          2. edge
            edge 17 September 2012 06: 32
            +1
            As stated by Churchill, beloved by the Poles, Poland is a jackal of Europe.
        2. edge
          edge 17 September 2012 06: 31
          0
          and who then shared the Czech Republic with Hitler?
  7. Brother Sarych
    Brother Sarych 15 September 2012 10: 04
    +5
    Americans can roll with their linden at a well-known address ...
    1. Click-Klyak
      Click-Klyak 15 September 2012 12: 00
      -12
      The wines of Stalin are officially recognized by ALL countries, including Russia.
      1. Geton
        Geton 15 September 2012 12: 06
        +5
        Quote: Click-Gag
        The wines of Stalin are officially recognized by ALL countries, including Russia.
        This is recognized only by traitors = enemies of the Russian people.
        1. Click-Klyak
          Click-Klyak 15 September 2012 13: 51
          -5
          Quote: Geton
          This is recognized only by traitors = enemies of the Russian people

          How did you attach the Supreme Commander ....
          1. Geton
            Geton 15 September 2012 14: 01
            +2
            Quote: Click-Gag
            How did you attach the Supreme Commander ....

            From the song you can not throw out the words.
          2. Brother Sarych
            Brother Sarych 15 September 2012 15: 12
            +1
            Are you talking about scuba crane? So only one was the Supreme, and even then a long time ago ...
        2. dmb
          dmb 15 September 2012 16: 20
          +3
          In fact, only a court recognizes a person as guilty. Everything else is balabolstvo. And it doesn’t matter, the Supreme balabolit, or, say, not very healthy Novodvorskaya. Well, we - all right, eat it - the Slavs. But the countries of Western democracy. I did not expect from them !!! It doesn’t bother you at all that this question is delicately circumvented. Already what would seem simpler. The President said, it is necessary, the court replied, is. But no keep quiet. I think that not everything is so cloudless with evidence of atrocities. Another question that confuses me somewhat. What for? I hope the version that the blood of the executed was sent to the Kremlin so that the Politburo bathed in it, we will leave Alekseeva and Nemtsov. Thank you in advance for your reply.
      2. Dovmont
        Dovmont 16 September 2012 21: 23
        0
        Smash nonsense! For me and many thousands of people, Stalin’s guilt has not been proved, despite the many years of attempts by the shit to prove it.
      3. edge
        edge 17 September 2012 06: 36
        0
        you're lying, Hunchback is not Russia ......
  8. Slevinst
    Slevinst 15 September 2012 10: 14
    +4
    the Americans in any well .. pu without soap are ready to climb if only to rossii shit something.
  9. andrei332809
    andrei332809 15 September 2012 10: 29
    +2
    Amers played with the East, distracted from Europe. But Europeans, well, you can’t trust anything, they took and didn’t finish Russia, they even thought about friendship. urgently need to intervene and indicate the right direction.
  10. upasika1918
    upasika1918 15 September 2012 13: 16
    +5
    The so-called "Color of the Polish officers" was supposed to fall into battle, fight the invaders, lie down under the tanks with a grenade in his teeth. No. They chose to surrender. Yes, the heroes who died defending Poland were, Glory to them forever. Those who surrendered without a fight, together with their soldiers, are not worthy of good memory.
    1. Click-Klyak
      Click-Klyak 15 September 2012 13: 54
      -4
      We are talking about those who were captured by the Red Army. Most had no weapons.
      And yes. Many died, many went to Romania and then to France, fought there against the Germans. Those who were lucky and get out of there - then fought in Africa, in Italy, etc.
      1. Geton
        Geton 15 September 2012 14: 06
        -1
        There is a good film by Mukhin "Katyn meanness", and so it raises the question of how
        Quote: Click-Gag
        many went to Romania and then to France, fought there against the Germans. Those who were lucky and get out of there - then fought in Africa, in Italy, etc.
        they fought.
      2. Brother Sarych
        Brother Sarych 15 September 2012 15: 15
        +3
        Well, well - who fought in the West, besides Anders' army? A pair of squadrons of aircraft and three not one destroyer, not one corvette, but Anders army. later corps, recruited to the USSR, from those whom the Red Army captured or interned ...
        1. Taratut
          Taratut 15 September 2012 17: 01
          -2
          Read here in detail.
          http://www.runivers.ru/doc/d2.php?SECTION_ID=6395&PORTAL_ID=6392
          1. Brother Sarych
            Brother Sarych 15 September 2012 17: 21
            +3
            In your source, each Pole was counted five times, if you noticed this, of course ...
            1. Click-Klyak
              Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 08: 16
              -1
              If a person managed to fight on several TVDs? Well, why not?
      3. smile
        smile 15 September 2012 17: 29
        +2
        Click-Klyak
        You are interested in me ... Please answer me, leaving as much as you can trust Mr. Goebbels, who was the organizer of the Nazi investigation of the crimes of Bolshevism, these 3, 5, 8 are sometimes 20 thousand colors of the Polish officers (sometimes the Poles mention the color of the Polish intelligentsia for a change) the better the 81 captured Red Army prisoners destroyed by the Poles (and the undetermined number of Russian White Movement supporters who found themselves in the same conditions), including in the most atrocious ways, eh? I have not heard a single apology of the Poles at the political level, but have you heard? Can you say a few words in defense of ours? .. well, for a change .....
        By the way, so, for reference .. do you know that not all Poles-military men who were in our hands fell into camps? For example, the gendarmes, who successfully burned the Ukrainian and Belarusian villages, the posadniks who carried out the most severe policy of polonization in the camps, turned out to be almost all ... well, like ordinary punishers ... the ordinary and non-commissioned officers were almost completely released after filtering, a significant part was also released from the officers ....anyway...
        1. Click-Klyak
          Click-Klyak 15 September 2012 17: 51
          -4
          Goebbels cannot be trusted. His information must be carefully checked. But if he says that two, two, four, then it remains true even from Goebbels.
          With regards to captured Red Army soldiers. Do you know who even became the initiator of these squabbles? Gorbachev.
          Before him no one was interested in any prisoners who perished God when.
          But Gorbachev, when he realized that he wouldn’t get out, gave the task to urgently find our answer to Chamberlain. Some kind of counter-Katyn.
          But there's little use. The percentage of Red Army soldiers and Poles who died in Polish captivity in ours is approximately the same. (Meltyukhov "Soviet-Polish wars"). So either we and they are villains, or we and they are NOT villains.
          The dead are sorry, of course. But the time was like that. Typhoid fever, malnutrition ....
          1. smile
            smile 15 September 2012 18: 51
            +1
            Click-Klyak
            I will disappoint you ... the primary materials about the atrocities of the Poles deliberately starving, cutting barbed wire to death, chopping with sabers and simply shooting both by order and as a private initiative of the Red Army and non-combatants appeared not even at the prisoner exchange commission, but leaked from reports and the memories of the British and French, who organized and commanded the Polish army during the war unleashed by the Poles. A lot of materials, including those from supporters of the white movement, initially simply interned by the Poles, and then thrown by them into concentration camps, were presented by the Red Cross. Read at least about the Tukhol camp .... Nobody especially hid these materials, but didn’t duplicate them with us, so as not to set us up against the brothers of the Poles ....
            And Gorbi’s fault is precisely that he simply agreed with all the accusations of the Poles when he tried to please our probable friends .... By the way, there has been a joint commission for quite some time - not politicians, but historians who are trying to come to a common denominator, and the Poles recognize the facts of the deliberate mass destruction of the Red Army and non-combatants, they only argue with us that half of the victims - about 40 thousand, did not die because they were raped to death, beaten with butts, but because they were deprived of food and were not given medical help .... well, they say they themselves died .... but only political statements are still there ...
            Over the course of several years, polemics on this topic have periodically flared up on the pages of the Rodina magazine ... read it. If you are lazy, I will give you a sample in a week (I just can afford to sit on the site on weekends) ... and as an illustration of how different our approach to conscience and truth is with the Poles, try to get acquainted with the Polish magazine "Poland" at Russian .... probably after that Goebbels will seem like a mathematical genius ... By the way, my grandmother is a Polish woman and she lived in pre-war Poland ... many of her relatives fought with us .... believe me, the stories are sickening.
            1. Igarr
              Igarr 15 September 2012 21: 17
              +7
              What the .. approach ..
              Click-Klyak writes ".. It's a pity for the dead, of course. But the time was like that. Typhus, malnutrition ....".
              Well, let's continue ... 1940 .. the time was like that.
              If it was ....
              ...
              The NKVD carried out mass executions of Soviet citizens.
              It is still unknown (or little is known) where. And How.
              Here in Orel, for example. Medvedevsky forest. Everyone knows - T U T R A S S T R E L I V A L I ... prisoners.
              Searched, searched ... burial places. Not found. But everyone - KNOW.
              ..
              Forests near Smolensk. Well, it’s necessary .... well, only here the NKVD broke up - in full.
              And left the documents in his pockets. And shells - left. And the newspapers.
              No receipts, by chance? "..I, Sergeant GB Sidorov IP, personally smacked 40 thousand ... Polish officers of the color of the intelligentsia .."
              ...
              Prove!

              Links lead !!

              Condemn !!!!.
              ...
              One thing they forget to do is turn on the BRAINS.
              ..
              well ..have .. about the times ... such.
              1. PSih2097
                PSih2097 15 September 2012 21: 33
                +3
                And if you recall what kind of fights were going on near Smolensk, then you can write off another hundred hundred to two hundred under the Poles, moreover, in the Katyn region ...
                1. smile
                  smile 15 September 2012 22: 28
                  +1
                  Igarr

                  And for them these are the usual and only possible methods of action - they simply cannot do otherwise. And they were given their brains on receipt not for inclusion, otherwise they would not have used arguments, such as documents that were not seized by stupid NKVD officers during the initial search and were not attached to the case file ..... I would generally, in their place, such "information" He kept silent in every possible way, since this is the first sign of bullshit ... and illiterate ... or designed for idiots.

                  PSih2097

                  And if you recall that in that area the executed were buried back in tsarist times ... and all, damn it, with Polish newspapers ... it’s not good to be malicious, but the lies of the pseudo-historians of the Novodvorskaya school simply make me angry ....
              2. evgen762
                evgen762 16 September 2012 00: 38
                0
                To me, one comrade even argued that their TPMs were fired, and the corpses were taken to the Devil's Ditch to be buried through the whole city at night (I mean Orel)
              3. Click-Klyak
                Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 08: 18
                -1
                Quote: Igarr
                Forests near Smolensk. Well, it’s necessary .... well, only here the NKVD broke up - in full.


                What were they afraid of in October 1940?
                That the Germans will occupy half the country and find a burial place? This could not have occurred to anyone.

                Quote: Igarr
                The NKVD carried out mass executions of Soviet citizens.
                It is still unknown (or little is known) where. And How.

                Enlighten you?
                1. smile
                  smile 16 September 2012 10: 11
                  +2
                  Click-Klyak
                  it’s strange ... you are caught on ... so to speak, unfounded statements ... and you somehow do not rush to defend your rightness ... do you really realize that your version of events is a deliberate propaganda lie?
                  1. Click-Klyak
                    Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 11: 27
                    0
                    A list of statements on which I was "caught".
                    Or do you automatically consider your objection a refutation?
                2. Brother Sarych
                  Brother Sarych 16 September 2012 11: 25
                  0
                  Indeed, why should they be afraid and disguise their actions as fascists? Knit hands with German twine, imitate someone else's manner of execution and everything else?
                  Also, the Polish agents didn’t even suspect that some Poles were shot by mass parties, and the Poles would gladly raise kipzh about this ...
                  About the executions of Soviet citizens, you would have listened less to the fabrications of memorials - even if you find a burial place, you could not identify anyone before that! No documents, no other details ...
                  1. Click-Klyak
                    Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 13: 45
                    -1
                    Quote: Brother Sarich
                    Indeed, why should they be afraid and disguise their actions as fascists? Knit hands with German twine, imitate someone else's manner of execution and everything else?

                    No one imitated anything.
                    If you read Burdenko's materials, it says that only a few people have their hands tied and tied with a "twisted cord". What kind of twine?
                    And they fired from Walther because it is a reliable machine, it rarely wedges and the breakdown force is small. The bullet remains in the body.

                    Quote: Brother Sarich
                    Also, the Polish agents didn’t even suspect that some Poles were shot by mass parties, and the Poles would gladly raise kipzh about this ...

                    Secrecy. There is a whole procedure.

                    Quote: Brother Sarich
                    About the executions of Soviet citizens, you would have listened less to the fabrications of memorials - even if you find a burial place, you could not identify anyone before that!

                    The Poles left valuable things, gold, etc. Do you think the Germans left such things? And further. Why did they make a fuss so late? In 1941 or 1942 there would be much more sense. Another Anders army was inside the USSR.
                    1. Brother Sarych
                      Brother Sarych 16 September 2012 14: 19
                      +2
                      Were Burdenko's commission familiar with the peculiarities of making twine in Germany? There are also methods of execution - they did not shoot "our way" in most cases ...
                      At the time of the alleged executions, not a single intelligence service uttered a word about the executions, and the agents of the Poles and the British remained in good health and operated almost throughout the USSR, at that time few thought that in a year we would become allies, noise would have been necessary. ..
                      It was in the USSR that the corpses had nothing left! Have you read Babi Yar? What were they doing there long after the shootings? I can remind you that the Germans created teams. who were engaged in "mining" ...
                      Why did you make a fuss so late? Yes, in order to strengthen the split between the allies - what did you think? Wanted to improve relations between the USSR and Poland during and after the war?
                      1. Aleksys2
                        Aleksys2 16 September 2012 15: 07
                        +1
                        Quote: Brother Sarich
                        It was in the USSR that there was nothing left for the corpses!


                        In addition:
                        For example, in the summer and autumn of 1941, for propaganda purposes, the Germans publicly opened graves in occupied Soviet cities in which people who were actually shot by NKVD officers were buried. However, no documents or personal items were found in those graves - the victims were identified only on the basis of the testimonies of relatives or acquaintances.
                        No identification documents were found on the corpses of prisoners in the Baltic states, Western Ukraine and Belarus, who were shot by the NKVD and NKGB officers in haste during the retreat in haste due to the impossibility of evacuation. And in the Goat Mountains on 1941 identified corpses 2815 objects were found (attention!), Allowing to establish the identity of the dead! (Katyn syndrome. S. 3184)
                      2. Click-Klyak
                        Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 15: 45
                        -1
                        Quote: Brother Sarich
                        Were the Burdenko commissions familiar with the peculiarities of making twine in Germany?

                        But twine and "twisted cords" are not the same thing.

                        Quote: Brother Sarich
                        At the time of the alleged executions, not a single intelligence cried out about the executions

                        Maybe someone knew what. Should they report to us?
                        Maybe they didn’t. This fact was not disseminated.

                        Quote: Brother Sarich
                        Why did you make a fuss so late? Yes, in order to strengthen the split between the allies

                        So why not immediately reinforce this split? What did they wait until 1943?
                      3. Brother Sarych
                        Brother Sarych 16 September 2012 16: 40
                        +2
                        And how is twine made, if not twisted? Or did you forget how the twine looks?
                        Did the hostile intelligence keep silent about the "joint" of its enemy? Well you give ...
                        But didn’t the scales begin to lean toward our victory in 1943? Before this period, the Germans believed that they would win ...
                      4. Aleksys2
                        Aleksys2 16 September 2012 16: 43
                        +2
                        Quote: Click-Gag
                        But twine and "twisted cords" are not the same thing.

                        You exposed us again:
                        Twine is a thin strong thread for packaging, stitching, etc., made by twisting paper, bast fibers, chemical fibers or threads, as well as their combinations.
                        Further excerpts from the act of the commission Burdenko:

                        in a very small part of the corpses (20 of 925), the hands were tied behind the body with the help of white braided cords.
                        The dimensions of the entrance openings on the occipital bone suggest that during the shootings a two-caliber firearm was used: in the vast majority of cases - less than 8 mm, that is, 7,65 mm or less; at a smaller number - over 8 mm, i.e. 9 mm.
                        Comparing the condition of the corpses in the graves on the territory of "Kozy Gory" with the condition of the corpses in other burial places in the city of Smolensk and its immediate environs - in Gedeonovka, Magalenshchina, Readovka, camp No. 126, Krasny Bor, etc. (see act medical examination of October 22, 1943), it must be admitted that the burial of the corpses of Polish prisoners of war on the territory of "Kozi Gory" was made about 2 years ago. This is fully confirmed by the discovery in the clothes on the corpses of documents that exclude earlier terms of burial (see paragraph "e" of Article 36 and the list of documents).
                        Forensic medical expert commission on the basis of data and research results - considers the act of killing established by shooting prisoners of war of the officer and partially ordinary composition of the Polish army as established;
                        claims that this execution refers to the period of about 2 years ago, that is, between September and December 1941;
                        he sees the fact that the forensic expert commission in the clothes of corpses of valuables and documents that have a date of 1941 is evidence that the Nazi authorities, who searched the corpses in the spring and summer of 1943, did not thoroughly, but discovered documents indicate that the shooting was carried out after June 1941;
                        states that in 1943 the Germans produced an extremely insignificant number of autopsies of dead Polish prisoners of war;
                      5. Click-Klyak
                        Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 18: 17
                        -1
                        Twine is a thin paper rope, but not a cord.

                        Quote: Aleksys2
                        The dimensions of the entrance openings on the occipital bone suggest that during the shootings a two-caliber firearm was used: in the vast majority of cases - less than 8 mm, that is, 7,65 mm or less; in a smaller number - over 8 mm, i.e. 9 mm.

                        Well, what did you highlight in red? What for?

                        Quote: Brother Sarich
                        But didn’t the scales begin to lean toward our victory in 1943? Before this period, the Germans believed that they would win

                        Clear. Until the summer of 1943, quarreling allies was futile. Just think, Anders army will start a riot in the Soviet rear. Just think, Lend-Lease will stop (and in 1942 it was already a full-flowing powerful flow of supplies). Just think, there won’t be a second front (and Hitler believed in the landing so much that he pulled out 3 divisions from under Stalingrad, and from other places 2 and sent them to the French coast.)
                      6. Aleksys2
                        Aleksys2 16 September 2012 21: 04
                        +2
                        Quote: Click-Gag
                        Well, what did you highlight in red? What for?


                        About 9mm caliber. He is from where the NKVD ?.

                        And how is the cord different from twine?
                      7. Click-Klyak
                        Click-Klyak 17 September 2012 13: 49
                        0
                        Quote: Aleksys2
                        About 9mm caliber. He is from where the NKVD?

                        Why couldn’t there be one 9mm Browning among the suitcase of pistols?

                        Quote: Aleksys2
                        And how is the cord different from twine?

                        A cord is a thick twisted rope. Well, you can’t name the twine with which the cake is tied up with a cord, right?
                      8. Aleksys2
                        Aleksys2 17 September 2012 18: 15
                        0
                        Quote: Click-Gag
                        A cord is a thick twisted rope.


                        Are you serious? lol
                        A thick twisted rope is a rope. wink

                        So, Browning was already drawn, but what prevented the NKVD officers from using 7,65 mm Browning?
      4. edge
        edge 17 September 2012 06: 40
        0
        they were not captured, they fled from the enemy .... our hostilities did not lead.
  11. PSih2097
    PSih2097 15 September 2012 14: 12
    +3
    Repost your early quotes:
    in short, I believe in this option more:
    The major of the Austro-Hungarian army Jozef Pilsudski decided to revive the great Poland from the Baltic to the Black Sea. The dictator agreed with a fugitive seminarian Semyon Petlyura, Poland took the land to the Dnieper with Kiev, the Central Council of the east coast to the Caucasus and the Caspian. Having received weapons from the Entente, the aggressors attacked Soviet Russia and captured Kiev on May 6, 1920. However, dreams crashed, failed to wash their boots in the Black Sea, in late July, the Red Army was in the suburbs of Warsaw. Dzerzhinsky, Dubrovinsky, Belostotsky and other Leninist guards insisted on an immediate assault on the city, guaranteeing the support of the Polish proletariat. Alas, the illusions turned out to be impossible; the army was surrounded and defeated. The lucky ones managed to escape to Germany, and fifty thousand prisoners disappeared without a trace. More or less reliable information has been preserved only about twenty-five thousand who were brutally tortured or executed. Having occupied Poland, the Germans handed over to the Soviet Union all the Polish officers who were awarded the order for the defeat of the Red Army near Warsaw. After the completion of the investigative actions, four thousand of them were shot. For 1940, this is retribution; today it is the killing of innocents.
    In any case, having received documents from Katyn from Gorbachev, the Poles still have not published the minutes of interrogations of their officers. Logic at the level of the B-52 bomber is the best bomber in the world, capable of dropping 25 tons of napalm onto the enemy.
    It would be nice to know the opinion of the Vietnamese, whose heads flew napalm.

    "For 500 years now Poland has been causing a constant headache for Europe. It's time to finally put an end to this topic." F. D. Roosevelt, 1945

    And to be honest, the mention of Katyn and Poles is already beginning to get out, I already wrote my point of view on this issue that year. It doesn’t matter who shot, the main thing is that they were shot for the case ... but it was in Poland in the 20s ...
    1. PSih2097
      PSih2097 15 September 2012 15: 57
      +2
      And butt with ballian
      and in general this is my personal opinion ... And the question is what x ... I have to bend under them, why should I humble myself, to whom to ask for forgiveness, and for what? before the reborn gentry? so in my humble opinion she (the gentry) did not go far from the SS troops and I do not urge anyone to share my point of view. (lex talionis)
      Rear Admiral ballian ... request
      or who is he (ballian)
      http://topwar.ru/12783-katynskaya-tragediya-istoricheskie-uroki.html
      Along the way, the Poles check the strength of the policy of the Russian Federation, at the same time the liberals of the local bottling will be able to shout about the moral duty to the poor Poles ... and then you look, the lawsuits of all those who have ever offended will go rampant. The Baltic states - for the occupation, Ukraine - for the famine, Scandinavia - for sunken transports with raw materials for the Reich, etc.

      Why do I repost - I’m tired of proving my point of view ...
  12. Aleksys2
    Aleksys2 15 September 2012 14: 16
    +6
    In an interview with the representative of the General Staff of the Red Army on the formation of the Polish army on the territory of the USSR, Major General A.P. Panfilov on 16 on August 1941, V. Anders and Z. Shishko-Bogush (head of the Polish military mission in the USSR) indicated that the Polish army would be formed both by compulsory appeal, and on a voluntary basis; first of all, two light infantry divisions of 7-8 thousand people each and a reserve unit should be formed; the terms of their formation "should be tight so as to ensure their entry into the combat zone as soon as possible. The calendar deadlines for the formation of these compounds will depend on the degree of receipt of weapons, uniforms and other material supplies. " Polish generals said that they expect to receive uniforms and equipment from England and the USA, while small arms and ammunition from the government of the USSR. An agreement was reached on the creation in the Gryazovets, Suzdal, Yuzhsky and Starobelsky camps of the NKVD for prisoners of war draft commissions, which will include representatives of the Polish command, the Red Army, the NKVD of the USSR and the medical doctor. As Panfilov informed the chief of the General Staff, representatives of the Red Army and the NKVD “in order to strengthen our influence on the Polish formations” were given the right to withdraw persons entering the Polish army. On August 19 at the second meeting of the mixed Soviet-Polish commission on the formation of the Polish army, V. Anders and Z. Shishko-Bogush (the head of the Polish military mission in the USSR) were informed that the Red Army command was satisfying their request to form two rifle divisions in the USSR and one reserve regiment, the term of their availability is 1 October 1941. The number of divisions was determined by 10 000 people each, the reserve regiment - 5 000. Major State Security G.S. Zhukov gave V. Anders a list of officers on the 1 658 people in the USSR. At this meeting, it was decided to deploy formations in the Totsky and Tatishchevsky camps (in the Chkalov and now Orenburg and Saratov regions, respectively), headquarters in Buzuluk (Chkalov region).
    On October 1, Beria reported that from 391 575 Polish citizens who were in prison and in exile, by 27 of September, 50 295 people were released from prisons and gulag camps, 26 297 from prisoners of war and, in addition, 265 248 special settlers. By this time, 25 115 former prisoners of war were sent to form the Anders Army. 16 647 released from prisons, camps and special settlements arrived there too; 10 000 more people were on the way. By this time, two Polish divisions and a reserve regiment had been formed, equipped with former prisoners of war (23 851 people) and, in part, selected Poles from among former prisoners and special settlers (3 149 people).
    As Beria informed Stalin, on the 1 of March 1942 of the year, the Polish army in the USSR had 60 000 people, including 3090 officers and 16 202 non-commissioned officers. Beria noted anti-Soviet sentiments in the army, including among ordinary soldiers, and reluctance to go into battle under Soviet leadership.
  13. koshara-988
    koshara-988 15 September 2012 16: 06
    +1
    UWB think that they will cover us with PROY and will be guaranteed to be protected from a vigorous retaliatory strike. Maybe they are not going to bomb us, but they want to dictate the conditions.
    PS. I don’t know for the flag / like Iceland / but I live in RUSSIA
    1. PSih2097
      PSih2097 15 September 2012 17: 34
      0
      Ask your provider ...
  14. Sasha 19871987
    Sasha 19871987 15 September 2012 16: 58
    0
    I’m gonna be a rough story, like a prostitute who pays. It owns it
  15. Dimon Lviv
    Dimon Lviv 15 September 2012 17: 07
    +3
    It's simple - the Germans shot the Poles.
    By the way, it would not hurt to raise the question of the death of our 80 thousand Red Army soldiers in Polish concentration camps!
    1. Larus
      Larus 15 September 2012 18: 42
      0
      They don’t want to raise anyone, they like it there, because all their stolen money is stored in the West.
    2. loc.bejenari
      loc.bejenari 16 September 2012 04: 39
      -1
      in the Ostashkov camp who shot them, aliens or German troops
      1. Aleksys2
        Aleksys2 16 September 2012 10: 58
        +1
        Quote: loc.bejenari
        in the Ostashkov camp who shot them


        Have they been shot?
  16. snorry
    snorry 15 September 2012 17: 10
    +1
    Why are the Americans stirring up this topic together with all of NATO? Why no one remembers how the Poles during the "turmoil" in Russia were odd things that you can't find words?
    There would be no pre-war conventions - there would not be such a stir!
    1. Larus
      Larus 15 September 2012 18: 45
      0
      Because it is profitable for the West and for some reason the war they started from September 39, and not from 38, for example. It is profitable for them to shout about the so-called. pact MP, but it is not profitable to say that the whole of Europe before that renegotiated a bunch of agreements with Hitler, including with "friendship" against the USSR. The same Poland flirted with Hitler, expecting that the Germans would attack us, and the Poles would run backwards and return "their" lands.
  17. pinachet
    pinachet 15 September 2012 17: 32
    +1
    even if ours had done things, it was a symmetrical response to the shooting by the Poles of thousands of Red Army men in the 20s.
    According to Russian sources, about 80 thousand of the 200 thousand captured in Polish captivity died from hunger, disease, torture, bullying and executions.
    The main goal (of the war of 1919-21) of Poland, led by Jozef Pilsudski, was to restore Poland to the historical borders of the Commonwealth in 1772, with the establishment of control over Belarus, Ukraine (including Donbass), Lithuania.
  18. uizik
    uizik 15 September 2012 18: 30
    0
    Again, the Americans have fabricated and rigged facts, events, and so on. What is most important, on time. Well done, they know how to work! When will ours also bend them through the knee? Hurry up!
  19. upasika1918
    upasika1918 15 September 2012 20: 52
    +1
    Am-Moroccans stuck a pig ... to their Polish friends !!! Well plague trucks, well done.
  20. JackTheRipper
    JackTheRipper 15 September 2012 21: 05
    -1
    I associate the word "Katyn" with:

    A carcass flew in the clouds
    It carried an infection in itself.
    Dancing flew on the coffins
    One hundred villains at once.

    One hundred people have one schiza:
    From the word "Russian" vomiting.
    Russia is scolded by their mouths
    In a Russian plane.

    Our prime minister plaintively requested:
    “I'm sorry, we ask you very much”
    Those who spared no energy
    The country reviles him.

    What year they eat
    Only carrion
    They rush to a new feast
    At a new feast in Katyn.

    Smerdela carrion on fangs
    Called dung flies.
    A carcass flew in the clouds
    And in it - another hundred carcasses.

    They flew to open again
    Everything that has already decayed long ago
    So that again, like a shouted scream,
    Putting a snout into the graves ...

    Cowardly and powerless power
    It will be empty forever.
    But our heaven and earth
    Shame will not be allowed.

    The plane crashed to the ground
    Cook the hell with pitchforks!
    The one who burst the grave -
    He lay down in the mass grave.

    What does this flight teach us?
    The answer is very simple:
    If the enemy comes to us with Katyn,
    Himself from katyn will die

    We have a simple answer to everything,
    Indeed, in truth, our strength.
    It doesn't matter if there is a god or not
    But he keeps Russia.

    © 10.04.2010 Comrade Krasnov
    1. Ilyukha
      Ilyukha 15 September 2012 22: 31
      -1
      Listen, homebrew poet! You can't talk so offensively about the people who died on that plane! There were not only the president of the neighboring country and his staff, but also veterans of the war against the Nazis. Are they also "one hundred scoundrels at once" ?. Politics can be different - it is understandable, but why gloat about their death? With deep disrespect, IMHO
  21. Morani
    Morani 16 September 2012 00: 23
    +2
    US authorities hid information about the shooting by the Soviet authorities of thousands of Polish officers in Katynalthough they possessed evidence of its reliability, reports the Associated Press.

    According to declassified archives, the Americans, who were captured by the Germans, wrote to their homeland about the mass graves discovered in 1943 in the territory occupied by the Nazis. According to these data, the Germans themselves brought several Americans and British to the place of mass execution in order to show them their find.

    According to the degree of decomposition of bodies in these burials and other signs, prisoners of war Americans came to the conclusion that people were killed before the arrival of German troops in the Smolensk region. This is what they wrote about in the United States, but rejected the Nazi proposal to take part in an anti-Soviet propaganda campaign.

    From the information contained in the declassified archives, we can conclude that in Washington in the mid-1940s they knew about the crime of the Stalinist regime in Katyn, but were in no hurry to publicize these data, not wanting to spoil relations with the USSR.

    An investigation into the Katyn execution was conducted in the United States in the early 1950s. The US Congress adopted a special resolution on this subject. Congressmen completely blamed the shooting of Polish officers on the USSR, and also called on the White House to file lawsuits against the USSR in international courts.

    The American administration did not heed the recommendations of the Congress and actually remained silent about the Katyn case until the collapse of the USSR and the publication of Soviet archival materials testifying to the involvement of the NKVD in the execution.

    As expected, just under a thousand American documents relating to the Katyn execution will be declassified. They will be published, in particular, by the website of the Polish Embassy in the USA.
    1. Generalissimus
      Generalissimus 16 September 2012 04: 49
      -1
      “I am deeply disappointed,” the researcher of the Katyn issue, a specialist in Soviet archives, said to “Zhezpospolite”.


      Pyotr Zykhovich:
      - Have you read the documents declassified by the United States?

      Professor Krzysztof Jasevich:
      - Yes. I have been working on them for 24 hours. Of course, I could not explore the entire collection - it is huge - but I was already able to make up my mind about it.

      Pyotr Zykhovich:
      - So what?

      Professor Krzysztof Jasevich:
      - I am deeply and very disappointed. This is a third category document. Messy mixture. It looks as if someone swept the broom, mixed it and threw the Poles to make them happy. These papers are not of great value..


      http://www.rp.pl/art...-kategorii.html

      Piotr zychowicz

      Przekazano nam dokumenty trzeciej kategorii
    2. Aleksys2
      Aleksys2 16 September 2012 15: 12
      0
      Quote: Morani
      According to declassified archives, the Americans, who were captured by the Germans, wrote to their homeland about the mass graves discovered in 1943 in the territory occupied by the Nazis. According to these data, the Germans themselves brought several Americans and British to the place of mass execution in order to show them their find.


      Yeah, the Germans brought prisoners on an excursion across Europe, let them see it. Do you yourself believe that? if so, check with a psychiatrist.
      1. Click-Klyak
        Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 15: 48
        -1
        What seems incredible to you?
        Bring a few people to make sure - what's so difficult?
        How is it possible to "drive a wedge between the allies" if no independent or neutral sources confirm anything?
        1. Aleksys2
          Aleksys2 16 September 2012 16: 45
          +2
          Representatives of the Red Cross were brought.
          And the prisoners .... but they didn’t take them on a tour to Nice?
          And then, why take prisoners if neutrals can be brought?
          1. Click-Klyak
            Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 18: 18
            -1
            And they drove the neutrals.
  22. Morani
    Morani 16 September 2012 01: 01
    +1
    Only sheep will deny the fact of the massacre of Polish citizens. Another fake.
    1. Ilyukha
      Ilyukha 16 September 2012 01: 19
      -1
      I totally agree. I'm tired of this unhealthy hysteria and attacks on the Poles. Is it that the Poles killed 27 million people in our war? Was it not Stalin's falcons (Russians) who drove them to Siberia under an agreement with Hitler? Found those to blame for their troubles. Why should this topic be rocked at all? The non-government authorities even came up with a cheerful delusional holiday "the day of unity and unity" (read: liberation from the Poles in 1612). It will be celebrated on November 4. Congratulations ...
    2. Aleksys2
      Aleksys2 16 September 2012 03: 37
      +2
      Quote: Morani
      Another fake.

      You're right:
      It is very strange that the extracts with the decision on the “Question of the NKVD of the USSR” from the minutes of the meeting of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks from March 5 on March 1940 were printed on letterheads in red and black that were no longer used in the spring of 1940.
      In the upper left corner of the typographic forms of the period of the 1930-ies, the red warning is printed in red: “To be returned within 24 hours to the 2-th part of the Special Sector of the Central Committee”. On the side, in red prints, is an indication formulated by the Plenum of the RCP (B.) Of 19.VII.1924, “... The mark and date of familiarization on each document are made personally by the comrade to whom he is addressed, and his personal signature ...” (RGASPI , file 17, op.166, d. 621, l. 134).
      On the forms that were used in the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks in February - March 1940, the warning, like the entire form, was printed in black, and the Plenum’s instructions were transferred to the back and also printed in black. But Beria, for an unknown reason, was sent an extract on an old form.
      Moreover, on the extract from the minutes of the meeting of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks dated March 5 1940 for "Comrade. Beria ”there is no stamp of the Central Committee and a print of a facsimile signed by Stalin. In fact, this is not a document, but a simple information copy. The dispatch of an unauthorized extract without a stamp from the Central Committee to the Beria narcotist contradicted the elementary rules of the Central Committee apparatus.
      It should be noted that protocol No. 13 (“Special No. 13”) itself, containing the decisions of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks from February 17 to March 17 on March 1940, was duly certified. It bears the facsimile signature of I. Stalin, sealed with a red round seal of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks with the inscription "The All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks." In the inner circle there are two letters - “Central Committee” (RGASPI, f. 17, op. 162, d. 27, f. 54).
      In accordance with the requirements of the Central Committee, Beria, having read the extract sent, had to sign it and immediately return it to the “Special Sector of the Central Committee”. But on the extract from the “closed package No. 1” addressed to Beria, there are no marks on his familiarization with the document! But on the back of this copy there is a mark on the additional direction of Beria of this extract 4 December 1941, But the mark on the December familiarization is also missing!
    3. loc.bejenari
      loc.bejenari 16 September 2012 04: 22
      -4
      the rams still manage to prove with foam at the mouth that the captured Poles in the Ostashkov camp were also shot by the Germans - although he was not under occupation
      1. Aleksys2
        Aleksys2 16 September 2012 11: 07
        0
        Where did the information come from?
      2. Brother Sarych
        Brother Sarych 16 September 2012 11: 27
        +1
        There were actually Germans in that area ...
        1. Aleksys2
          Aleksys2 16 September 2012 11: 57
          +1
          Quote: Brother Sarich
          There were actually Germans in that area ...


          As if yes, but not for long, from October to December 1941. What does it have to do with. Copper (where everything supposedly happened) was just on the front line.

          Meanwhile, in 1991, the GWP investigation team, together with Polish specialists, during the partial exhumation in the 6th quarter of the Kharkov forest park zone, 167 remains were recovered, 243 bodies were exhumed in the territory near the village of Mednoye, Tver Region (formerly Kalinin Region). How many of them belong to the citizens of Poland, the investigation has not been established. Quick-shoot footage shows that scattered bones, skulls and their fragments were extracted from the graves (source - RIA Novosti, October 9, 2008).
    4. Generalissimus
      Generalissimus 16 September 2012 04: 52
      0
      Only sheep will deny the fact of the massacre of Polish citizens


      This fake has long been investigated. =)
      However, Alexis2 even cited a fragment of the refutation a little lower.
      And who after this ram?
    5. Lech e-mine
      Lech e-mine 16 September 2012 16: 30
      0
      neither you have a signature nor a seal yes you sir sucks DOCUMENTS FALSE.
  23. ale15746555
    ale15746555 16 September 2012 06: 39
    +3
    And why the Poles are silent about the atrocities against the local population and Soviet prisoners of war during the Soviet-Polish war. 80 thousand Red Army men were brutally tortured in captivity. Something is not visible so that they repent for the crimes committed.
    And about Katyn, Yuri Mukhin did not leave a stone unturned on that evidence base collected under Gorbachev.
  24. Konrad
    Konrad 16 September 2012 13: 00
    0
    If you destroyed yours, would you babysit with Polish officers? They were potential adversaries in the event of war, so they were simply destroyed.
    1. Morani
      Morani 16 September 2012 13: 40
      -1
      Everyone and everyone recognizes. The NKVD killed not only Poles, but there were many Belarusians.
      Quote: Konrad
      They were potential adversaries in case of war, so they were simply destroyed

      The top of cynicism. They were staunch opponents of Hitlerism and skilled fighters. Glory to the heroes!
      1. Konrad
        Konrad 16 September 2012 13: 52
        -2
        Morani,
        "They were staunch opponents of Hitlerism" - no one denies this, but how would they treat the Stalinist regime if they had survived after our camps?
      2. Brother Sarych
        Brother Sarych 16 September 2012 14: 21
        +1
        And so many dreamed of holding a JOINT parade with the Nazis on Red Square?
        1. Konrad
          Konrad 16 September 2012 15: 05
          -1
          Brother Sarych,
          Did they tell you personally?
          1. Brother Sarych
            Brother Sarych 16 September 2012 16: 43
            0
            Have you tried to work with materials before getting into a conversation? Czechoslovakia did not interfere with the division of the Germans and the Poles, so what would prevent the division of our lands?
            At least you go to the local site, look for articles on this topic - there have already been written about this more than once ...
            1. Konrad
              Konrad 16 September 2012 17: 15
              -1
              Quote: Brother Sarich
              before getting into a conversation

              What does this strange phrase mean? Are you going to close my mouth, the owner of the site ??? But didn’t you try to think logically, how did thousands of Polish officers (if we didn’t destroy them) get to the Germans? They themselves came or we gave, so that not a single witness was left. If we didn’t tell, then why didn’t they hide, knowing what awaits them among the Germans?
              1. Aleksys2
                Aleksys2 16 September 2012 17: 22
                +1
                Quote: Konrad
                But didn’t you try to think logically, how did thousands of Polish officers (if we didn’t destroy them) get to the Germans? They themselves came or we gave, so that not a single witness was left.

                Yeah, you have to read the source.

                Before the German occupation of Smolensk in the western regions of the region, Polish prisoners of war and officers worked on the construction and repair of highways. These POWs were stationed in three special camps called camps No. 1-OH, No. 2-OH and No. 3-OH, at a distance of 25 to 45 km. west of Smolensk.
                The testimonies of witnesses and documentary materials established that after the outbreak of hostilities, due to the prevailing situation, the camps could not be evacuated in a timely manner, and all POWs, as well as part of the guards and camp staff, were captured by the Germans.
                1. Click-Klyak
                  Click-Klyak 16 September 2012 18: 26
                  -1
                  Quote: Aleksys2
                  after the outbreak of hostilities, due to the prevailing situation, the camps could not be evacuated in time, and all POWs, as well as part of the guards and camp staff, were captured by the Germans.

                  You read about the battle of Smolensk.
                  It was not some kind of lightning throw that immediately ended with a "cauldron".
                  And further. In the early days of the war, problems arose. Indeed, sometimes they did not have time to take out the prisoners. But they were destroyed (with the exception of absolutely trifling sins). At the same time, acts were drawn up - explanatory documents were written, say, why the bodies were buried carelessly and in a hurry). Leaving the Germans a division of officers, anti-Soviet-minded - Stalin would never have done such stupidity. He generally refused to extradite officers to the Germans so as not to strengthen them - back in 1939.

                  Quote: Brother Sarich
                  And together they planned the parade BEFORE the war began, and not after

                  I don’t know what you are interested in, but you are unlikely to provide the fact of plans for a parade or joint actions. But the joint actions of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht were planned, I can prove it.
                  1. Aleksys2
                    Aleksys2 16 September 2012 21: 10
                    +1
                    Quote: Click-Gag
                    At the same time, acts were drawn up - explanatory documents were written, say, why the bodies were buried carelessly and in a hurry). Leaving the Germans a division of officers, anti-Soviet-minded - Stalin would never have done such stupidity. He generally refused to extradite officers to the Germans so as not to strengthen them - back in 1939.

                    And where are the acts of the Poles?
                    And how did Stalin refuse to hand over officers to the Germans in 1939? Did he tell you about this?
                  2. Aleksys2
                    Aleksys2 18 September 2012 06: 09
                    0
                    Quote: Click-Gag
                    But the joint actions of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht were planned, I can prove it.


                    It would be interesting to listen.
                2. Konrad
                  Konrad 16 September 2012 18: 26
                  -1
                  Quote: Aleksys2
                  all prisoners of war Poles, as well as part of the guards and camp staff were captured by the Germans.

                  This is the most interesting moment, they sat like sheep and waited for some to leave and others to come? Are these military officers ??? And not one was running? , therefore, there are NO witnesses.
                3. nickname 1 and 2
                  nickname 1 and 2 16 September 2012 20: 55
                  0
                  Aleksys2,
                  I have a question! How long did it take to bring this crime into action? how many people would be needed for protection? After all, if they fled from the Fritz during the shootings, and they shot from machine guns, then what is the technology.? 1000 people a day to shoot with a pistol? 100 h / h = 0.6 min - let's say 4 shooters = 25 h / h = 2.4 min - PROBLEMATICALLY! Is not it? 15 days for executions? Who will give them such luxury? The front is near! So there must be many more people!
                  When a tense situation, the enemy is approaching, ours retreat, and it is not somewhere on the "roadside", but on the road of the main forces, how did someone answer these questions?
                  Proceeding from the consideration that "THIS WORK" was not done by two dozen of the NKVD, but a large number (it was necessary to hurry), then there should be chances!
                  The second is not one or two people! Take DNA was not a thought? Establish at least one involvement!
                  1. Aleksys2
                    Aleksys2 16 September 2012 21: 35
                    +1
                    About DNA, in 1943 there was no such technology; GWP didn’t bother with this at all.
                    In 1941, the Poles were not shot, they were offered to go east, they refused.
                    1. Lech e-mine
                      Lech e-mine 17 September 2012 01: 09
                      0
                      Pole occupies Czech city TESIN 1938
                  2. Konrad
                    Konrad 16 September 2012 22: 04
                    -1
                    nickname 1 and 2,
                    Have you heard about the machine gun?
              2. Brother Sarych
                Brother Sarych 16 September 2012 17: 54
                0
                I’m not the owner here, but the same guest, so I won’t be able to drive out some characters with all the desire ...
                You asked if the Poles themselves told me about their desire to hold a parade together on Red Square? This is practically a well-known fact for the majority of those who are little interested in history, as well as the division of the Cieszyn region between the jackals of Europe, in particular Poland grabbed a sickly piece ...
                And together they planned the parade BEFORE the war began, and not after, after them no one asked anything about anything ...
                1. Ilyukha
                  Ilyukha 16 September 2012 18: 09
                  -3
                  Your fantasies are exorbitant and inappropriate. You are ideally suited for the role of a provocateur. Get rid of the Poles, they are not guilty of anything in front of you. I hope not to meet you on the site.
                  1. Aleksys2
                    Aleksys2 16 September 2012 21: 26
                    +2
                    Quote: Ilyukha
                    Roll away from the Poles, they are not guilty of anything in front of you. I hope not to meet you on the site.


                    So we don’t need anything from the Poles, they want something from us.
                    Delete your account on this site and you will not meet us here anymore (just some kind of masochist).
                  2. Lech e-mine
                    Lech e-mine 17 September 2012 01: 02
                    0
                    friends met to talk
                2. Konrad
                  Konrad 16 September 2012 18: 10
                  0
                  Quote: Brother Sarich
                  And together they planned a parade BEFORE the war

                  These are all insinuations, but the fact is a joint parade of the Red Army and Wehrmacht units in Brest 1939.
                  1. Brother Sarych
                    Brother Sarych 16 September 2012 20: 05
                    0
                    These are not insinuations, and your photo is not a joint parade at all! You know very well about the first. and about the second ...
                    Just deja vu - all this has been discussed dozens of times, including on this site ...
                    I myself personally chased someone, whom the Poles themselves "love" very much, repeatedly drove on Izvestia, when it was still possible to discuss topics normally there, although I appeared there under a different nickname ...
                    1. Konrad
                      Konrad 16 September 2012 21: 55
                      -2
                      Quote: Brother Sarich
                      your photo is not a joint parade at all!

                      You will argue that this was not in Brest in 1939 ??? Have a conscience! However, as my deceased grandmother used to say - "" At least a piss in the eyes, but he is God's dew "
                      1. Brother Sarych
                        Brother Sarych 16 September 2012 22: 01
                        -1
                        It was in Brest, in 1939 - but this is not a joint parade ...
                      2. Morani
                        Morani 17 September 2012 22: 22
                        +1
                        Yeah, this is a joint evening calibration led by a German-Guderian and a Jewish-Krivoshein. From the back of their building (now the Brest Regional Executive Committee)
                      3. Lech e-mine
                        Lech e-mine 17 September 2012 00: 52
                        0
                        OH OH WHO HAS OUR HERE WITH FRITZES FLIRT
                      4. Aleksys2
                        Aleksys2 17 September 2012 04: 53
                        -1
                        Quote: Konrad
                        "Though ssy in the eyes, but he is God's dew"


                        Well, it's more about you.
                        In Brest in 1939 the Germans left the Red Army entered, together they did not pass the parade. It has long been dealt with.
                  2. Lech e-mine
                    Lech e-mine 17 September 2012 00: 43
                    0
                    and this is also a fact. POLES AND HUNGARIANS IN THE OCCUPIED CZECHOSLOVAKI. Congratulate each other with a victory.
                  3. Dobrokhod Sergey
                    Dobrokhod Sergey 17 September 2012 17: 22
                    0
                    Quote: Konrad
                    These are all insinuations, but the fact is a joint parade of the Red Army and Wehrmacht units in Brest 1939.

                    And there wasn’t a parade. There was a passage of the German column in a ceremonial march in front of the podium. And the passage of Soviet troops in front of the podium was not at all.
                    The German documents speak of the solemn march “Vorbeimarsch”, but the word “Parade” does not appear. And the Germans, unlike you, know the meanings of these words.
      3. Lech e-mine
        Lech e-mine 17 September 2012 00: 57
        0
        WOW, who is here with us.
      4. Lech e-mine
        Lech e-mine 17 September 2012 05: 32
        0
        German officers are watching the Polish troops seize the Czech city of BOGUMI in 1938. In this city, a legendary haha ​​meeting of Poles and Germans took place after the final partition of CZECHOSLOVAKIA. (HERE AND YOU
        Opponents of Hitlerism-in the fight against RUSSIA are ready to cooperate even with the devil)
  25. Konrad
    Konrad 16 September 2012 18: 13
    -1
    Quote: Brother Sarich
    so I won’t be able to drive out some characters with all the desire ...

    After the revolution, all sane people were also expelled, then they came to their senses and began to shoot. Nostalgia stuck?
    1. Brother Sarych
      Brother Sarych 16 September 2012 20: 06
      0
      If memory serves, then they sent about twenty people, but not so many were shot, most of them for the cause ...
      1. Konrad
        Konrad 16 September 2012 21: 59
        -2
        Quote: Brother Sarich
        sent twenty people

        It is believed that at that time 228 people were expelled from the USSR, but there is every reason to think that the figure is understated. Representatives of the Russian spiritual elite - university professors, philosophers and writers, doctors, engineers, technicians, lawyers, students, suspected of sharing the views of the teachers disliked by the Bolsheviks - became "personas non grata" for the young republic. And how many got out of the Bolshevik "paradise" themselves, until they put them up against the wall!
        1. Eugene
          Eugene 18 September 2012 17: 58
          -1
          Now, 20 years after the intelligence-fussing fuss, it became clear that Grandfather Lenin was right — this was the city of the nation!
          1. Konrad
            Konrad 27 September 2012 20: 56
            0
            Quote: eugene
            intelligentgenstokoy

            It is necessary to freeze this! So any little-educated person, and even an intellectual - what a boil in train!
  26. Konrad
    Konrad 16 September 2012 18: 31
    0
    Joint parade of the Red Army and Wehrmacht units in Brest 1939 After the partition of Poland.
    1. Lech e-mine
      Lech e-mine 17 September 2012 00: 29
      +1
      And THIS is your favorite Poles agree with the Germans on the division of CZECHOSLOVAKIA. (PHOTO YUZEF BEK WITH RIBBENTROP)
    2. Dobrokhod Sergey
      Dobrokhod Sergey 17 September 2012 17: 27
      0
      Quote: Konrad
      Joint parade of the Red Army and Wehrmacht units in Brest 1939 After the partition of Poland.

      And where is the parade?
    3. Morani
      Morani 17 September 2012 22: 28
      -1
      And here Guderian is not stinking a Jew, everything is fine. They knocked up a cool tribune, it is convenient in the future to use it as a scaffold.
  27. MI-AS-72
    MI-AS-72 16 September 2012 21: 12
    +2
    So for a reminder.
    In December 1938, the report of the 2nd (reconnaissance) department of the main headquarters of the Polish Army emphasized: "The dismemberment of Russia is at the heart of Polish policy in the East ... Therefore, our possible position will be reduced to the following formula: who will take part in the partition. Poland should not remain passive at this wonderful historical moment. The task is to prepare well physically and spiritually in advance ... The main goal is to weaken and defeat Russia "
    And here is an excerpt from a conversation held on December 28, 1938 by an adviser to the German Embassy in Poland Rudolf von Schelia and the newly appointed Polish Ambassador to Iran, J. Karsho-Sedlevsky:
    "The political perspective for the European East is clear. In a few years, Germany will fight the Soviet Union, and Poland will support, voluntarily or involuntarily, Germany in this war. For Poland, it is better to definitely side with Germany before the conflict, since Poland's territorial interests in the West and the political goals of Poland in the east, especially in Ukraine, can only be achieved through a Polish-German agreement reached in advance.He, Karsho-Sedlewski, will subordinate his activities as Polish envoy to Tehran to the implementation of this great Eastern concept, since it is necessary in the end finally persuade and induce also the Persians and Afghans to play an active role in the future war against the Soviets. To this task he will devote his activities during the coming years in Tehran. "
    From the recording of a conversation between German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop and Polish Foreign Minister Jozef Beck, held on January 26, 1939 in Warsaw: "Mr. Beck made no secret of the fact that Poland was claiming Soviet Ukraine and access to the Black Sea."
    1. Lech e-mine
      Lech e-mine 17 September 2012 00: 44
      0
      brothers met in occupied Czechoslovakia
    2. Lech e-mine
      Lech e-mine 17 September 2012 01: 14
      0
      The Polish tank breaks into CZECHOSLOVAKIA 1938 (before RUSSIA GLORY TO GOD did not reach, Hitler prevented)
  28. Lech e-mine
    Lech e-mine 17 September 2012 00: 50
    +1
    THE POLES ARE RYLCO ALSO IN THE GUN (Polish occupation units in the captured CZECHOSLOVAKIA)
    1. Morani
      Morani 17 September 2012 22: 14
      0
      Tell how many Czech officers the Poles destroyed on their territory, dumping the corpses in a common pit. Connoisseur of history.
  29. FIMUK
    FIMUK 17 September 2012 15: 57
    0
    here is a very simple opinion -
    Czechs and Poles got what they deserved, and by and large the Russians did not care about them, or the Cheka shot them or the Germans.
    The Czechs betrayed the Russian army of Kolchak, having knocked down a little gold coin, Psheks all their life dreamed of jumping off the Tsar’s Hukan, and both times into the moat.
    Why argument? Who shot Pshekov in Katyn?
    wink
  30. atos_kin
    atos_kin 17 September 2012 16: 56
    0
    Disputes will stop only when all the European Union regions come back again under our Russian guardianship.
    1. Konrad
      Konrad 20 September 2012 18: 37
      0
      Quote: atos_kin
      when all the European Union regions will return again under our Russian guardianship.

      And they were asked if they want this? To begin with, they would put things in order!
  31. warmaster
    warmaster 17 September 2012 23: 58
    +1
    Patriotism does not consist in the desire to completely block off the authorities of their country. The Germans did not make sense to shoot Polish officers, they would rather be involved in the fight against communism. But the version with the guilt of the NKVD and Stalin seems plausible because the motive is more obvious - the fight against dissent. Do not forget that executions under Stalin were not uncommon. And in the end, why did Gorbochev have to apologize? He then had full access to the archives. Incidentally, according to archives published in 92, the execution was sanctioned by the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks.
  32. 16
    16 18 September 2012 00: 04
    0
    and thousands of Russian prisoners in Polish concentration camps ???????? and this is long before the Nazi concentration camps !!!!!!! but Ryazan, Tula, Vladimir, Tambov, Bashkiria, Tatarstan, Vologda, Moscow, Lipetsk, Ivanov can gather
    , Pskov, St. Petersburg, etc. ????????? and submit to the ECHR to Poland --------- they also violated the rights of prisoners of war !!!!!!!
  33. Head Physician
    Head Physician 4 November 2017 23: 15
    +15
    Still to know her - the whole truth