Luger pistols in Russia

284
Luger pistols in Russia
Advertising of the Luger pistol in Russia

Who announced this from the beginning, so that we know,
and long before we can say "true"?
But no one said, no one announced, no one heard your words.
Isaiah 41:26

History firearms weapons. We continue our story about the Luger pistol, and the topic of today's material will be "Luger" in Russia.

In the comments to the previous material, they have already written about a lot, and it seems that there is no particular point in repeating it. Moreover, it is enough to open "Wikipedia" to read the following in it:



“At the beginning of the XNUMXth century, Luger pistols were purchased for testing by the Military Department of the Russian Empire. I did not like the pistol and for a very long time unsuccessfully distributed among the officer corps. Such pistols gained popularity in Russia only as a trophy of the First World War. There is a version compiled by Western collectors and without any documentary evidence that similar pistols purchased by Russia had a designation on the upper part of the receiver above the chamber in the form of crossed Mosin rifles, and allegedly for the pistols supplied to Russia, frames of the Bulgarian order were used with inscriptions in Bulgarian. This version does not stand up to criticism and was recognized as erroneous by domestic experts. "

As for the officers of the Russian Imperial Army themselves, they could well buy a Luger on the domestic market in any reputable weapons store.

Advertising of that time reported that "the automatic pistol" Parabellum ", in various configurations, was sold at a price of 40 to 60 rubles, that is, it was expensive, but ..." not more expensive than money. " Browning price fluctuated in the range of 20-60 rubles. For eight rubles, when buying a pistol, another 100 cartridges were sold to it. A holster made of foreign suede leather cost only one ruble and one and a half rubles (the cost of a school student's cap!) - a spare store. As for the Mauser with the butt holster, it was sold in Russia at a price of 40 to 50 rubles.


Another example of advertising this pistol ...

But here's what's interesting: why did Western collectors “compile their version” and put it into circulation?

Once again "rewrite our history" and harm us?

But it is not clear how the presence of the Russian version of the Luger can do this? The version is larger, the version is smaller - what's the difference?


Parabellum in battle. A German cavalryman against a Russian dragoon! " Fig. Johnny Shumeita

However, let's take a better look at these most unusable Western compilers and read their works. And that is, we have such a feature, to generalize without reading ...

So…


Here it is: "Russian Luger" 1906 Photo of the Rockyland Arsenal

The only literature in which you can find information on the Russian parabellum model 1900 is in two books: J. Walters "The Book of Luger" (p. 239) and in the book by K. Kenyon "Luger: a multinational pistol" (p. 110).

We are talking about a Russian "contract" luger of 1906, the existence of which was proved by reference to earlier Russian tests of the 1900 model. There is only an indirect reference in the Walters edition:

“There is no doubt that Parabellums were tested at the test site in Oranienbaum in 1904, because some of the results of these tests were noted by V. G. Fedorov. The German pistol was known in Russia as the "Borchardt-Luger automatic pistol", and in 1904 a pistol of the 1900 model of the 7,65-mm caliber and a 12-centimeter barrel was tested. "


Crossed rifle stamp of 1891. Rockyland Arsenal Photos

Kenyon's book gives similar information:

“Primary documentation indicates that Russia tested the Luger in 1904; however, Luger's promotional material suggests even earlier trials (1902). "

None of the authors writes that there was a special "Russian" parabellum M1900, only serial pistols were tested. What little is known about the trials implies that the Russian military did not like the 1900 pistol and did not place an official "contract" order for it. However, it is possible that several 1900 pistols were given to officers for field trials. A similar practice took place in the armies of other countries.


And this is how the stamp with the rifles and the stamp of the DWM company looked on the pistol itself. Rockyland Arsenal Photo

By the time the M1906 was released, the Luger had reached a higher level of quality and became more acceptable in the eyes of the military. No doubt a number of improved parabellums of the 1902/06 "new model" were also distributed to Russian officers for field trials around 1908, just as they did with the "old model" of 1900 in 1902/04.

Some historians and, in particular, the same Walters, argue that no military tests were carried out, and the contract for the production of the "Russian parabellum" in 1902/06 was intended to arm the police or gendarmerie.

But ... how then to be with the sign on the chamber, which is two crossed Mosin rifles?

Such a sign is intended to be used for military purposes, but not for police purposes. Anyway, there is an M1902 / 06 pistol, discovered by collectors at least back in 1958.


German pistol P08 1917, artillery model, produced with a holster-butt manufactured by DWM. National Museum of World War I, Kansas City

However, today it is impossible to know whether the tested models of the 1900 Luger were indeed marked with crossed Mosin rifles on the chamber and in Cyrillic letters with the inscription: "Fire", under the safety lever.

Again, according to J. Walters, at least one M1900 was tested at the Oranienbaum test site in 1904. But there is no evidence that these same crossed Mosin rifles were depicted on his chamber.

For a long time it was believed that Bulgaria was the only country to receive pistols with such an inscription. However, their chambers bore the coat of arms of Bulgaria.


And here, for some reason, the DWM brand is designed differently ... Photo of the Rockyland Arsenal

In any case, Luger pistols with crossed rifles in the chamber have been around since the 1950s. That is, yes, there are no documents for these pistols. But the pistols themselves are available, although there are not very many of them.

Consider them fakes?

For example, Serbian Lugers consider it to be a fake, although not everyone thinks so.

But if the first pistols were discovered back in the 50s of the last century, then the question arises, how could they even get to the West because of the Iron Curtain?

So, “the work is local,” since it is profitable to trade in rarities?

But everyone understands that in this case there cannot be many such rare pistols, and if so, then ... there is no benefit to forge just a couple of pistols. After all, there not only rifles have to be stuffed into the chamber, but also the numbers on the details must be interrupted, and this is very difficult. After all, you need to take into account all the serial numbers of the pistols that were produced then and "squeeze" into their line in such a way that the new numbers of suspicion would not be aroused by specialists. In addition, it is difficult to remove old numbers from the surface of parts. Their presence can be easily determined by any specialist with the help of a microscope, that is, to reveal the fact of a fake would not be difficult.


Brave security officers, photo of the 20s of the twentieth century. And with what kind of pistols they did not arm themselves. For example, in the film "Lenin in 1918" all the Cheka employees are running around with the Browning of 1900! Nagant - only one!

But we know that Luger pistols were delivered to Russia twice: in 1902 and 1907.

It is also known that the pistol was not officially adopted by the Russian Imperial Army, but most likely received a very high rating after the tests of 1902, since in February 1907 officers were allowed to have it as a service weapon. Let us emphasize - a service, and not a weapon "out of order".

“To allow officers to have in the ranks and in general on duty, when it is installed to be with revolvers, revolvers and automatic pistols of the following systems: 3 lin. revolvers mod. 1895, Browning pistols, caliber 9 mm, and Bohardt-Luger pistols (Parabellum). "

After this imperial command, apparently, another purchase of Parabellum pistols of a "new model" with barrels of 100 mm and a caliber of 9 mm, similar to the M1906 pistols, was made. They did not have grooves for attaching the butt to the grip, but had an automatic fuse on it.

The chamber was stamped for some reason in the form of intersecting rifles, and on the front bolt lever - the traditional DWM stamp. On the left side of the ejector of the 1906 pistol was the inscription: "ZARYAD". The inscription "ОГЪН", as on the Bulgarian lugers, apparently appeared on them by accident, since it does not correspond to the word "fire" in Russian. Apparently, DWM took the stamps for the Bulgarian pistols without making out the difference between them.

In total, it is believed that about 1 pistols of the “new model” were delivered to Russia with serial numbers from 000 to 1. But Russians were reluctant to buy them because of their complexity and high price.

This is all that today is at least approximately known about the "Russian luger" ...

List of used literature:
1. Kenyon Jr., Charles, Luger: The Multi-National Pistol. Richard Ellis Publications, Inc., Moline, Ill., 1991
2. Walter, John, The Luger Book. Arms and Armor Press, 1986
3. Jones, Harry, Luger variations. Clark Litograph, INC., 1959
4. Görtz, Joachim, Dr. Sturgess, Geoffrey, The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols: A Technical History for Collectors from C93 to P.08. Brad Simpson Pub. & J. Gortz Estate, 2012, ISBN: 978-0-9727815-8-9
5. Neil Grant, Alan Gilliland, Johnny Shumate, The Luger. Osprey Publishing (Osprey Weapon 64), 2018, ISBN: 9781472819734

To be continued ...
284 comments
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  1. +22
    7 November 2021 05: 27
    As for the officers of the Russian Imperial Army themselves, they could well buy a Luger on the domestic market in any reputable weapons store.
    And what .. quite an adequate policy - you can take what you like, and not just what they give .. Happy Holidays everyone!
    1. +19
      7 November 2021 05: 38
      42 rubles for a Luger, 100 cartridges for him for 8 rubles can be freely purchased in the store ... my brothers are drooling ... if I had a time machine would hit the road to Russia at that time and buy this rarity. what
      Vyacheslav you introduce me to despondency and nostalgia with such articles.
      But thanks anyway for the article. hi
      1. +21
        7 November 2021 06: 08
        Lesch, then money had a completely different purchasing power, or whatever it is called, but the pistol was considered expensive, a lot of milling and manual fitting of parts, Browning was much simpler, and therefore cheaper. Actually, the Germans, mainly because of this, replaced the "Eight" with the R.38.
        1. +13
          7 November 2021 06: 16
          Handcrafting weapons only enhances their value ... would use this beauty of Luger purely as a painting by Rembrandt ...
          I would hang it on the wall and admire it every day, getting positive emotions. hi
          1. +17
            7 November 2021 06: 59
            Yes, I have two of them on my shelf - a Japanese airsoft copy of the Artillery Model and a textbook copy of the "Eight" performed by Glacier. So I admire, but it's like "odorless salt." request smile
          2. +4
            7 November 2021 08: 15
            "positive emotions" + firebrands: "illegal possession of military weapons."
            1. +5
              7 November 2021 08: 31
              Collectible weapons are perfectly legal. smile
              True, for this it must be brought into a non-combat state.
              As a rule, black diggers and illegal sellers are burning under the article ... it is not enough to have a weapon ... its possession must be done in a legal way. hi smile
      2. +5
        7 November 2021 06: 10
        Why go to Russia at that time in a time machine? Why the impossible? Drive to the modern, decaying, degrading, soon falling apart (underline as appropriate) USA. Well, or Argentina. And in gritty Russia, rising from its knees, on the initiative of the Tereshkov-Khinsteins, soon you will even keep kitchen knives in the police and receive them for a while to cut bread-sausages ...
        1. +7
          7 November 2021 06: 20
          Oh, do not remember the State Duma deputies ... do not spoil the morning mood with their masterful manners.
          Vyacheslav made me happy today with positive emotions ... smile
        2. +9
          7 November 2021 09: 13
          Snailman, a fig to go so far? Lugers can also be bought in the Baltic, which is much closer and much cheaper.
          And restrictions on the acquisition of weapons began in the USSR
        3. 0
          12 November 2021 10: 23
          They are still produced and sold, in the USA there is a Luger in feces. 45 ACP - was in limited service since 1907.
          https://lugerman.com/product/luger-45-1907-p2020/
          1. 0
            17 November 2021 00: 57
            They are still produced and sold, in the USA there is a Luger in feces. 45 ACP - was in limited service since 1907.


            Replicas are released. I mean, modern copies. Parabellum in the US Army has never been in service either limitedly, or completely, or in any other way.
            Luger made several pistols in .45 ACP caliber to participate in the US Army pistol selection test. But they did not pass the tests. Only two of this party have survived to this day. One of them was bought at an auction by an Arab sheikh for $ 1 million.
      3. +20
        7 November 2021 06: 17
        Alexei is not the only one who "drools" at the sight of "Parabellum", a gorgeous car, which won many men's hearts with its beauty!
        Vyacheslav Olegovich pleased with the article. The morning was successful. I'm going to cook breakfast!
        For some "jealous" Romanians, I will clarify the coffee is planned with cream! drinks
        And finally, I will join the words of the Leader of all those involved (at least by his birth) with the holiday!
        Yesterday I told my daughter about the demonstrations. Complete misunderstanding in the eyes. As in one bottle, the holiday and coercion coexisted.
        1. +4
          7 November 2021 06: 49
          What kind of "Leader of all those involved"?
          1. +10
            7 November 2021 07: 14
            Quote: Andrey Moskvin
            What kind of "Leader of all those involved"?

            Nick - Crowe (first comment on the thread). The great chief of the Crow tribe, the self-name of the tribe of the North American Indians "Absaroka" or "Apsaroque".
            1. +22
              7 November 2021 08: 27
              Vladislav - I am a simple Indian, not a leader at all. There are enough leaders without me. By the way, I forgot to introduce myself - Old Load Bison Joyfully fluttering Cactus on the Cactus Lying Beyond the Horizon of the Tender Sun. Call me that. I like the word. Many words.
              1. +5
                7 November 2021 09: 42
                And for some reason I remembered first of all Richard Crowe, the commander of the mercenaries from the classic "Far Cry". smile

                1. +9
                  7 November 2021 20: 10
                  And for some reason I remembered first of all Richard Crowe, the commander of the mercenaries from the classic "Far Cry".

                  - Hey, you! In a red shirt! angry At that time, it was not a game, but a fabulous new world. good

                  Brave security officers, photo of the 20s of the twentieth century. And with what kind of pistols they did not arm themselves. For example, in the film "Lenin in 1918" all the Cheka employees are running around with the Browning of 1900! Nagant - only one!

                  Colleagues, it was not only the Chekists who suffered from the "multi-armed" ratio. How many times I have been to museums where there are exhibits of partisan warfare (Pskov, Novgorod, Ushachi) - everywhere there are exhibits taken from the Germans. And the Germans, as we know, were still those little grunts ...
                  Therefore, it is not surprising that the commander of the Polotsk-Lepel partisan zone was armed with a "Walter PPK" (apparently, they cut some Fritz intendant), and in the Pskov museum there is a Polish "VIS", as you enlightened me, Uncle Kostya. hi

                  My friends! Today is the Holiday, on which we all grew up since childhood! Congratulations! drinks

                  But I would also like to congratulate two wonderful participants of our forum on their birthday! Yes These are Mikhail "Trilobite Boss" and Albert "Krasnodar". I wish you and your families happiness and new successes! Colleagues, my sincere respect to you! drinks
                  1. +1
                    7 November 2021 23: 16
                    Today is the Holiday, on which we all grew up since childhood! Congratulations! drinks

                    That's what you said very accurately! And that is why this day for me will forever remain Festive! smile drinks
                    I join in and sincerely congratulate our friends Mikhail and Albert on their birthday! All the best and health !!! smile drinks drinks
                    1. +2
                      8 November 2021 00: 02
                      - Hey, you! In a red shirt!


                      "Eh, zagu, zagu, spree, spree
                      Boy, yes guy is young, young,
                      In a red shirt
                      Such a pretty one. "(C)

        2. +6
          7 November 2021 07: 43
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          As in one bottle, the holiday and coercion coexisted.

          Dear Vladislav! Show your daughter this photo. Demonstration in Penza in 1959! Notice how the people are dressed poorly. Besides the dandy in the hat in the foreground. This is my father-in-law. He then worked in the Economic Council - this is such an invention of Khrushchev and not the worst - and everyone envied him.

          Now this street is unrecognizable ...
          1. +26
            7 November 2021 08: 29
            And Happy Holidays to you, no matter how it jars you
            1. +4
              7 November 2021 09: 45
              "old overweight bison, fluttering happily" consider me a bad pale-faced, but I can never write so much time is a pity.
              Thanks for the postcard. It's a pity that I don't know how to attach images. I would attach my favorites: 40-50th years. I like old postcards yu
            2. 0
              7 November 2021 20: 05
              Why should this bother me? You can enjoy the holidays in different and different ways ...
          2. +9
            7 November 2021 09: 36
            "people are poorly dressed" V. Oh, out of harm. Now people are smartly dressed, and the officials are poor?
            1. 0
              7 November 2021 10: 53
              Quote: vladcub
              out of harm.

              You might think you can't see it. I can see, but you don't? What a harm ...
              1. +10
                7 November 2021 11: 56
                Vyacheslav Olegovich, don't you think that the hat in those years meant a certain social level of the owner, that's all, or maybe the owner wanted to raise it, both in the eyes of others and in his own. wink I will add that in those years, the "organ people" also loved to wear hats.
                1. +8
                  7 November 2021 12: 02
                  Quote: Phil77
                  hat in those years meant a certain social level of the owner

                  It doesn't seem like it is. And they also swore at the hat and glasses like this: "I put on glasses, and in my hat too!" By the way, I made an impression on my future wife precisely by the fact that the only student of the group was wearing a light raincoat, a hat and a white silk scarf around his neck - ha ha.
                  1. +3
                    7 November 2021 12: 59
                    I agree, there is a symbol of clothing: GV and after - soldier's tunics, red kerchiefs. WWII after - semi-military clothing, white shoes and similar hats.
                    Comrades, it seems, I was carried to the "ogtrod" V.O
                2. 0
                  8 November 2021 21: 15
                  Quote: Phil77
                  Vyacheslav Olegovich, don't you think that the hat in those years meant a certain social level of the owner?

                  As in the stories of V.M. Shukshin: "And I also put on a hat!" lol
              2. Fat
                +11
                7 November 2021 12: 05
                hi Vyacheslav Olegovich. I have photographs of the 1960 May Day demonstration. The father in the photo in a then fashionable suit and felt hat ... and his friends look no less impressive. And he was just a high school foreign language teacher. Yes
                The costume here acts as a kind of uniform, not at all as a sign of social stratification. If necessary, it was relatively inexpensive to "build" a suit for oneself in a decent atelier, and most urban proletarians could afford "chic" without greatly burdening the family.
                The question is - why does a working person need a business suit?
                1. +6
                  7 November 2021 12: 16
                  "business suit"
                  So is the hat?
                  1. Fat
                    +8
                    7 November 2021 12: 41
                    Yes! exactly. Usually they wore a cap (cap). And the "six-blade" is generally a luxurious "vintage" now. I myself wore a felt hat with lowered brims in 1990, of course, with a raincoat and a suit ... The elder son-in-law was indignant and presented a leather cap "Luzhkovka" for "democracy" and ... something less like a gangster wassat
                    1. +5
                      7 November 2021 15: 17
                      Quote: Thick
                      something less like a gangster

                      Oh, in the 90s I wore a Luzhkov cap, a leather jacket from American bomber pilots and plaid tartan trousers from Germany. Well, he taught PR ... Photos in a jacket and a cap are in the books "Knights of the Middle Ages" and "Knights of the East".
                2. +1
                  8 November 2021 21: 17
                  Quote: Thick
                  The costume here acts as a kind of uniform, not at all as a sign of social stratification. If necessary, it was relatively inexpensive to "build" a suit for oneself in a decent atelier, and most urban proletarians could afford "chic" without greatly burdening the family.
                  The question is - why does a working person need a business suit?

                  Watch the film "Ivan Brovkin in the virgin soil", an episode when the whole brigade order suits for themselves and the tailor explains to them why a young man needs a good suit. These are now pants with a cuff below the knees, and bare blue ankles in the frosty squeak of fashion.
                  1. Fat
                    +1
                    8 November 2021 21: 37
                    hi Yuri. I looked, you can be sure. And even, as it were, he meant it. I had in mind the set "suit + hat + tie + shoes", which actually constitutes "business suit .... Trousers tucked into boots," apache "and a cap for any quality of the pair (or three) are different. laughing
                    As one old maid - "image maker" said: "A man who comes on a business visit cannot afford to look like a" skier ".
                    The word dress code is now used to mean "business suit", although this is not the same thing.
              3. +4
                7 November 2021 13: 09
                Q. Oh, YOU have finished reading: "and the officials are wretched"?
                But in general, of course: well-being has not grown commensurately.
                Until recently, mobile was a sign of coolness. And now only that the cats do not. Site cats, I'm not talking about you, but about stray
                1. +4
                  7 November 2021 13: 36
                  And now only that the cats do not.
                  There are collars with gps-module
                  1. +5
                    7 November 2021 13: 48
                    Lagged behind life
                  2. +5
                    7 November 2021 13: 51
                    So I even have a rat with a collar.
                    Hugo. Weighs like a cat. She opens the cage herself, enters it herself. If bored he resorts to cuddle up in bed. Yes, I thought to Hugo that they can't do that ..
                    1. +6
                      7 November 2021 13: 54
                      They are generally very affectionate, it is a pity they do not live long.
                    2. +3
                      7 November 2021 17: 53
                      I had no rats and I don’t know.
                      I know cats or dogs, but rats ...
          3. +16
            7 November 2021 11: 13
            Notice how the people are dressed poorly. Besides the dandy in the hat in the foreground.

            Vyacheslav Olegovich ...)))
            The people in the photo are not at all wretchedly dressed. They are dressed as they were then dressed all over the world, in the fashion of that time. Taking into account the scarce post-war times and the habit of Russian women, depending on the weather, to wear headscarves. We had such a custom, you know)))
            When it's cold and damp, there is nothing better than a warm handkerchief. By the way, in many cases, even now, in the cold, women here, in the Moscow region, wear headscarves. By the way, me too. A hat, and a scarf on top. And on top there is also a coat hood. But to be honest, now I'm dressed poorly. And in Soviet times, she dressed smartly. At your salary.
            1. +12
              7 November 2021 11: 42
              I absolutely agree with you, my friend!
              The photo was taken in the cold season. And people are dressed for the season, if you look at photographs from European cities of that time, there will be almost no difference! Here, for example, a street photo from New York / 50-year /, remove the architecture and ... women from any city in the USSR. Isn't that so?

              And the local people are not at all wretchedly dressed. Well, then they did not wear hats in droves. laughing
              1. +2
                7 November 2021 12: 04
                Quote: Phil77
                Is not it?

                Not this way! For such a skirt (on the right) we would have been raped for sure!
                1. +9
                  7 November 2021 12: 21
                  Not everything is so simple. There are pictures of my mother. 1961. Almost the same skirt, only with flowers. And in the summer sundress there are also several pieces, of almost the same time. So there is no crime.
                  1. +6
                    7 November 2021 12: 45
                    Quote: Phil77
                    Yes, and in a summer sundress too

                    I also have a photo of my mother in a colorful sundress. So yes, a lot depended on the place and time.
              2. +6
                7 November 2021 12: 14
                Greetings, Seryozha! )))
                I have seen a lot of photos on the Internet - strikes in the cap. countries, streets filled with people, working people, establishment, others. And all from the post-war times. No luxury! Lousy casual clothes. Moreover, in the West it is not customary to show off in ordinary life. Yes, no one then could show off, except, of course, those social strata that profited from the war. But they didn't glow.
                Agree, it would be strange to demand that people in 1959 hold mobile phones in their hands)))
              3. +11
                7 November 2021 12: 31
                "The bad news is that there are no dudes in America. And if we went out the way we go in Moscow, on Broadway, we would be taken to a psychiatric hospital" (C)

                Sergei! hi
                1. +5
                  7 November 2021 14: 23
                  Anton! hi
                  As for the dandies, I think Konstantin has the best command of the topic. For he lived in those years, almost a "living classic". bully
                  1. +6
                    7 November 2021 14: 46
                    Probably, Uncle Kostya saw them, but he himself is a child of Victory, and the dudes are mostly children of war.
                    1. +4
                      7 November 2021 15: 22
                      Anton! I still found a dude and went to fight them. At the sight of a dude, our Caudle began to shout: "Dude in a cage, smokes a cigarette!", "Dude in a strip, smokes a cigarette!"
                      1. +4
                        7 November 2021 15: 28
                        These were already echoes, the heyday came in the late fifties. I, Vyacheslav Olegovich, at one time was quite closely interested in youth subcultures.
                    2. +1
                      8 November 2021 15: 53
                      Exactly! And I do not remember these "dudes" at all, when I myself became interested in fashion, years old, that way, at 14, then it is fashion. was already completely different, at fourteen I already got into my first jeans. smile
              4. +1
                7 November 2021 17: 43
                You would generally compare the climate of subtropical New York to that of Penza. You are really like Khrushchev, who ordered the planting of corn all over the country, not considering that the USSR is actually much farther north and colder than the USA. Didn't they really teach geography in the USSR?
                1. +3
                  7 November 2021 18: 35
                  If you contact me, then in my opinion everything is written very clearly in my commentary.
                  Where is the city of New York, I know perfectly well, besides, where did you see that I compared New York to Penza? Where? Read it again more attentively. Khrushchev? Bravo, dear, I haven’t been called that yet. Let’s read more carefully, and only then for the keyboard, okay? Take your time and everything will be fine, I’m sure. All the best!
                2. +2
                  7 November 2021 18: 44
                  And I will add that New York is in the MODERATE climatic zone. Well, not subtropics at all, is it? wink This is the question of geography. laughing
              5. +4
                7 November 2021 17: 52
                But the faces of women are very different from our middle band.
                However, you can pick up any photos.
                1. +4
                  7 November 2021 18: 40
                  Hello, Sergey!
                  Yes, ordinary faces. Female. Of course I won't call them beautiful, but ordinary ones.
                  1. +4
                    7 November 2021 18: 50
                    Hello Seryozha!

                    It is not interesting, of course, to guess with a known answer. But these faces would not fit either to our 50s of the last century, or even to the 70s.

                    Although, of course, you can get out anything. Like, for example, Lavalier from the province.
            2. +9
              7 November 2021 12: 32
              Everyone dressed differently, here is a pre-war photo of my grandmother's fellow countrymen, collective farmers, usually do not believe. I have already published, but I will repeat

              We could live well, but the war, and then everything is on defense
              1. +5
                7 November 2021 13: 02
                We could live well, but the war, and then everything is on defense


                Right. And I have a photograph of my grandmother - a pre-war one. Grandmother, very young, in a white panama hat, beautiful shiny shoes, her dress is midi length, that is, almost to the floor, light, made of beautiful heavy fabric. And here is a post-war photograph ... On the head is a scarf, and on the very clothes like a short coat, as it was said, made of black plush. What was at hand was sewn from that. The people then really became impoverished. But, I repeat, not only here. Widows, orphans ...
                As for me, in the eighties I had such dresses that, in comparison with them, today's everything that is presented as luxury is just wretched rags. In my village, now all the people are dressed, from my point of view, entirely in consumer goods. At the same time, one consumer goods, without bothering, looks like cheap, and the other, due to additional very tasteless fennec foots, claims a high cost. But in general, everyone is dressed, in general, very modestly. I don't see anyone in suits and macs.
                1. +6
                  7 November 2021 13: 10
                  After the war, complete devastation

                  Even readers of The Times were impressed by the photo of a post-war village wedding, so they included it in their top 20 wedding photos. Grandma with a basket on her head.
                  1. +7
                    7 November 2021 13: 51
                    so they included this photo in their top 20 wedding photos

                    And people's faces are good! Confidence in them and no weakness. The bitterness of the past war still glows in the eyes, but is crushed by optimism. Masters of life! They held out.
                    They held out because the enemy identified himself.
                    1. +8
                      7 November 2021 14: 00
                      And people's faces are good! Confidence in them and no weakness. The bitterness of the past war still glows in the eyes, but is crumpled by optimism

                      I never cease to admire those faces, here is a photo from the 45th year, pupils 6! class of a rural school, half of the students lost their fathers, like my uncle, he lies on the right. To paint portraits for centuries. And the faces of the teachers ... the saints
                2. +3
                  7 November 2021 13: 19
                  midi length, that is, almost to the floor
                  I will correct it, Lyudmila Yakovlevna.
                  "Midi" is to the middle of the lower leg, and to the ankle and below - "maxi"
                  1. +2
                    7 November 2021 13: 44
                    That's right, Anton, I didn't understand these midi and maxi. I was guided only by the fact that the shoes are visible)))
                    1. +5
                      7 November 2021 13: 51
                      The mother of my children once sewed to order, so I got some information
                      1. +5
                        7 November 2021 14: 23
                        What an elegant phrase - "the mother of my children" ...
                        This is not the first time I have come across her, and I see a hut sheathed with bison skins, and a squaw sits on the threshold wassat )))
                      2. +5
                        7 November 2021 14: 49
                        Everything is much more prosaic. Sometimes love and marriage are two big differences, and joint children are not a reason to meet.
                      3. +5
                        7 November 2021 15: 08
                        Oh, Anton! ...
                        You are, as always, paradoxical.
                        joint children - not a reason to meet

                        The quote is a masterpiece. This is if by acquaintance we mean the depth of penetration into the spiritual world of a person with whom there are joint children. Yes, it's harder than simple physical contact wassat )))
                      4. +6
                        7 November 2021 15: 10
                        Exactly. For 15 years of life together, we have not learned to understand each other.
                      5. +4
                        7 November 2021 15: 17
                        Don't you want a lot? )))
                        Sometimes I don’t understand myself. I begin to explain to myself what I am, and it turns out that today I am one thing, tomorrow another, the day after tomorrow the third, etc. And all the diversity of me is explained by the diversity of circumstances. But there must be a part that remains unchanged when all the variations of me are superimposed on each other. And now, imagine, I do not see.
                        Do you understand yourself, Anton? wassat )))
                      6. +4
                        7 November 2021 15: 22
                        Occasionally laughing
                      7. +3
                        7 November 2021 15: 53
                        Occasionally


                        On schedule or how will it work out?
                        Or on a whim: here I understand myself, but here I don't understand myself wassat )))
                      8. +4
                        7 November 2021 16: 06
                        On a whim. Sometimes I create some kind of "perdumonocle", and then I think: what for? And I persuade myself: so that life does not seem boring.
                        You know, while I was married, I was a beech and a sociopath, I got divorced, it turned out I can be the "soul of the company"
                      9. +4
                        7 November 2021 16: 11
                        I do not want to say anything bad about your ex-wife, but, apparently, she was a stronger vampire than you wassat )))
                        This explains everything. Spiritual vampirism, he is)))
                        There is an expression "Don't pull your soul out of me!"
                      10. +4
                        7 November 2021 16: 57
                        than you
                        Oppanki! The second, for a week, the stigma on my Internet appearance, wounded by the forum! And I, poor fellow, thought that all such a white and fluffy Dominican, almost VanHelsing ...
                        she was a stronger vampire,
                        Why was? She's fine. Energy vampirism and longevity in this family is transmitted through the female line.
                      11. +4
                        8 November 2021 15: 58
                        Clap! and at the same time hitting my mother-in-law! Respect ... smile drinks good
                      12. +4
                        7 November 2021 17: 10
                        And, a counter question, Lyudmila Yakovlevna, have you ever imagined your abilities for energy vampirism? Perhaps the fact that I have a well-established immunity to it justifies our cute dive?
                      13. +3
                        7 November 2021 17: 15
                        ... our cute pick?

                        Nice dive? wassat )))
                        So you're saying I'm an energy vampire?
                      14. +5
                        7 November 2021 17: 35
                        Is this news for you?
                        The ability to manipulate the opinions and emotions of other people is one of the components of energy vampirism.
                      15. +4
                        7 November 2021 17: 42
                        So this is how it is... )))
                        Have figured out the same good drinks hi wassat )))
                        And I hoped that I was trying to give optimism and hope for the beautiful far away, only occasionally laughing good-naturedly at the interlocutors.
                      16. +3
                        7 November 2021 17: 53
                        Why not so?
                        Latent Energy Vampirism may not be recognized by the host
                      17. +3
                        7 November 2021 18: 07
                        How stubborn ...
                        The specialist, however wassat
                        You vampire shamans are so ... voodoo?
                      18. +4
                        7 November 2021 18: 13
                        Yes, I learned to resist, the whole aura is in scars, you know ...
                        "I'm an old soldier, Donna Rosa!" (WITH) laughing
                      19. +4
                        7 November 2021 20: 53
                        "I'm an old soldier, Donna Rosa!"

                        - And you never know in Brazil ... Pedro? And do not count! fellow
                      20. +4
                        7 November 2021 20: 56
                        "Are you back in your tune?
                        I'll hand it over to jail! Keep in mind! "(C)
                      21. +6
                        7 November 2021 17: 56
                        “Selling - Buy What I Own:
                        I'll give you a ladder to heaven for a cheap price,
                        Gascon's light cloak, sword and belt -
                        The prices are low and affordable for you "(c).
                      22. +4
                        7 November 2021 18: 09
                        What about the dress of the Naked King?
                        Also, I suppose, is there in the assortment?)))
                      23. +5
                        7 November 2021 18: 22
                        But what about.
                        "Greece has everything" (c).

                        https://stihi.ru/2002/11/26-361
                      24. +5
                        7 November 2021 18: 23
                        "You see, Your Majesty, you are already bargaining!" (WITH) laughing
                      25. +4
                        7 November 2021 18: 35
                        Our Sergey, Corsair, climbs onto a stool and announces:
                        -- Poem!

                        Monday. I tried on a clown suit.
                        At eight or forty - fitting. And at nine to the stage.
                        Well - the clown is never dull and gloomy.
                        There is a fun price - so pay the same price.

                        Tuesday. He took the shabby robes out of the closet.
                        The moth hasn't eaten yet? So, I beat it a little.
                        To her - the language of old phrases. The intelligence of the turtle.
                        If you drive quieter, you will not finish your journey soon.

                        Day, another ... Midweek - Wednesday.
                        What else is stored in a creaky wardrobe?
                        How? Going on a visit. And that does not matter.
                        Here is the frock coat. Take it out - try it on - it will come in handy.

                        We are saving the embroidered camisole by Thursday.
                        Without a jacket and a pipe, I'm afraid they won't know.
                        Hypocrite. The hour of pretense and deception is over.
                        Are you real? Yes, on Saturday - and in the bath.

                        Junna Moritz with her revelations to me, the manipulator-vampire, is not close. Poet Corsair - much closer!
                      26. +5
                        7 November 2021 18: 42
                        Only Moritz - they both read and sing. The second is for internal use. And even then, you will not re-enter the river 20 years ago.
                      27. +4
                        7 November 2021 18: 53
                        And now?
                        Is it really like this:
                        "The sounds of wonderful songs fell silent,
                        Do not give them again:
                        The shelter of the singer is sullen and narrow,
                        And on his lips the seal. "(C)
                      28. +4
                        7 November 2021 19: 01
                        “Who grew up is gloomy and fastidious,
                        Anyone who still grows will understand everything ”(c).

                        Let's see. It's too early to sum up the results.
                        Works are changing - this is already a given.
                      29. +5
                        7 November 2021 18: 39
                        We are always looking for options. One of the components of the feminine essence.
                      30. +4
                        7 November 2021 18: 54
                        Well, as I would have meant it, but not at my expense. I've had enough already.
                      31. +3
                        7 November 2021 19: 03
                        This word "on" has become the word "us".
                      32. +3
                        7 November 2021 18: 54
                        One ...
                        The rest, therefore, have been found? winked
                      33. +3
                        7 November 2021 19: 04
                        No. And there are hardly such people. Remember Solomon.
                      34. +3
                        7 November 2021 19: 23
                        I remembered ...

                        "Much knowledge is a great sorrow,
                        This is what the creator of Ecclesiastes said.
                        I'm not a sage at all, but why so often
                        I'm sorry for the whole world and I'm sorry for the person?

                        Nature wants to live, and therefore
                        He feeds millenes of grains to the birds,
                        But from a mile of birds to lights and lightning
                        Hardly one escapes.

                        The universe is noisy and asks for beauty
                        Screaming seas splashed with foam
                        But in the hills of the earth, in the cemeteries of the universe
                        Only the chosen ones glow flowers.

                        Am I just me? I am only a brief moment
                        Alien existence. Good God,
                        Why did you create the world, both sweet and bloody,
                        And he gave me a mind so that I comprehend it! "(C)
                      35. +2
                        7 November 2021 19: 47
                        Ecclesiastes continues to be reflected in humans to this day. And Zabolotsky really likes it.
                      36. +2
                        7 November 2021 20: 14
                        When I talk about poets, I use different expressions. Hits or does not hurt. Somewhere deep down, everyone has strings. I touched the string, she began to sing, and her delicate sound would suddenly turn into light and shine for many, many years)))
                      37. +2
                        7 November 2021 21: 04
                        This is true. If it doesn't hurt, you walk by.
                      38. Fat
                        +4
                        7 November 2021 18: 29
                        Napoleon sells from the tray ...
                        Medals and a faded banner.
                        Van Gogh wants: "I know you are not the emperor,
                        You're just cognac.
                        But, I will buy all the goods ...
                        True, only by weight. "
                        And takes out a steelyard.
                        At this hour the moon is like a rusty basin,
                        Rises over the city N
                        (C)
                      39. +4
                        7 November 2021 18: 43
                        "Place yourself more evenly in the cabins,
                        Otherwise, the ship will roll.
                        I hope you are happy with the walk
                        Along the glorious city N. "(c)
                      40. Fat
                        +4
                        7 November 2021 18: 50
                        Yes Yes, this is Mike Naumenko.
                        "This city is strange, this city is not easy.
                        Life is in full swing here.
                        Everything is unusual here, everything is upside down here,
                        This city is a madhouse.
                        All faces are familiar, but each
                        Plays someone else's role
                        In order to understand at least something in this,
                        You need to know the secret password.
                        I invite you to wander tonight
                        Among the squares, houses and walls.
                        Better to see once than hear a hundred times.
                        Here it is - the county town N. "
                      41. +4
                        7 November 2021 19: 02
                        And Mike also had a very beautiful voice, real rocker, rich in overtones.
                        And he himself was handsome.
                        So he left. It's a pity, incredibly.
                      42. +2
                        7 November 2021 19: 29
                        It was Bashlachev who left beautifully. And Tsoi was "lucky".
                      43. +2
                        7 November 2021 19: 51
                        Yes, death is an unwelcome guest. Unless it is desirable for those who call and wait for it themselves. But death is good. He fell asleep and died in his sleep with a smile on his lips. An evil death came to Mike.
                      44. +2
                        7 November 2021 20: 04
                        Not evil, worthy. He was a jester, and died in the alley. I don't expect anything better for myself. But why the grave on Volkovka? Better ashes in the Neva!
                      45. +2
                        7 November 2021 20: 18
                        Anton, my dear, live long)))
                        The joke is gone. Stock up on something useful in case he leaves. To fill the vacuum.
                      46. +2
                        7 November 2021 20: 29
                        Hmmm ... My compliments to Columbine !!!
                      47. +2
                        7 November 2021 20: 50
                        Oh no! Team style is not my thing.
                        Gentle exhortation and continuous surrender of moral, ethical, ideological and political positions, so that the child does not cry wassat ))))
                      48. +1
                        7 November 2021 20: 53
                        As expected, Orlandina!
                      49. +2
                        7 November 2021 21: 02
                        So you think I'm a devil? )))
                        Powerful transition! At first she was a manipulator of consciousness, and now she is also a product of hell. And now I think, but from the outside - it is better to know!
                        am wassat )))
                      50. +2
                        7 November 2021 21: 32
                        Dear Lyudmila Yakovlevna!
                        It's up to you devils to dream and dream! You do not know how, although you want, like any woman.
                      51. +2
                        7 November 2021 21: 54
                        Anton ...
                        That's all I expected from you, but not this. Let's go without labels. The end of the jokes.
                      52. +2
                        7 November 2021 22: 12
                        Crap! Here is the answer, I expected everything from you, but not this!
                        What the hell do you want more?
                        I seem to have dotted the i's, marked my positions, set up outposts and rear guards ....
                        Do you want a frank confrontation?
                      53. +3
                        7 November 2021 22: 54
                        Do you want a frank confrontation?

                        My shock from such an unexpected statement of the question is so great that I do not even know what to answer you. It will be painful to think, look for dots above the "i", consider your positions, study the outposts and rearguards set up ...
                        That's what a man means! A warrior, however! Looks like I lost. Hmm ...
                        Maybe it's better to give up right away? wassat )))
                      54. +4
                        7 November 2021 19: 11
                        I feel the professionals have gathered ...
                        "Yes, I am a professional by nature, not an amateur" (C)
                      55. +3
                        7 November 2021 20: 01
                        Anton, why are you sprinkling iad, my dear? )))
                        And, of course, not a fan. It happens. I'm not a fan of many. Togo. This one. And that one. I endure them in silence. Do you know why? And they are plane-parallel to me wassat )))
                        Just do not reproach for non-literary expression.
                      56. +3
                        7 November 2021 20: 17
                        Dear Lyudmila Yakovlevna, I have been studying the history of Russian rock music for over 30 years, let me at least here, with taste and knowledge of the matter, send someone "to whom"!
                      57. +3
                        7 November 2021 20: 28
                        For God's sake, if it gets better!
                        And we ... Imagine that we ...

                        How mysterious that night seemed to me
                        I put out the candle, I waited
                        What I don't know, in silence
                        Suddenly it seemed to me:

                        Shadows wander around the house
                        Different fabulous animals
                        Disappear and reappear
                        Barely audible knocking on my door, my door ...

                        Imagine that we are these shadows, just shadows, and trample Mike as much as you want! )))
                      58. The comment was deleted.
                      59. +3
                        7 November 2021 19: 27
                        Yes, asshole, to be honest. No music, no drive, no poetics.
                      60. +3
                        7 November 2021 20: 03
                        Anton, brace yourself! I'm holding you by the elbow.
                        Get a handkerchief? wassat )))
                      61. +3
                        7 November 2021 20: 19
                        I'm strong! Better toilet paper!
                      62. Fat
                        +3
                        7 November 2021 20: 42
                        Anton. Don't expect me to argue. But even "gray" people have bright things. I heard this text was not performed at all by the Zoo smile , however, in 1983, when this magnetic album came out ... It only later became interesting, who else "made" this long "song" ... Here is the author "there are no more beautiful emotions than death from glass, like music, blood will pour into a wine glass "I haven't found it, there are" suspects ", but there is no confirmation, and the period is about the same smile
                      63. +1
                        7 November 2021 20: 50
                        I also have doubts, I suppose that Yuri Naumov, at least in terms of rhythm, is similar.
                      64. Fat
                        +1
                        7 November 2021 21: 09
                        I also "sin" on him and in style it is similar Yes
                      65. +2
                        7 November 2021 15: 24
                        "The weary sun tenderly said goodbye to the sea, at this hour you confessed that there is no love ..."
                      66. +2
                        7 November 2021 15: 57
                        Vyacheslav Olegovich, what are you hinting at?
                        We need to get the luger, and ... wassat )))
                        I wonder how many disappointments in this and that have forced the use of the Luger against both the disappointed one and one's own disappointed head?
                        Or shot in the heart?
                      67. +2
                        7 November 2021 17: 38
                        Quote: depressant
                        what are you hinting at?

                        I just remembered ... I just ...
              2. 0
                7 November 2021 21: 29
                I myself am a collective farmer and am interested in history. In our area, the villagers did not dress like that, but in the provincial cities some people dressed.
                Perhaps Mikhail Fedyanin imitated urban fashion
                1. +3
                  7 November 2021 21: 48
                  Perhaps Mikhail Fedyanin imitated urban fashion

                  I'll correct it, Fedin. For the photographer, dressed, seeing off the war, as a keepsake. I just posted a photo that shows the well-being of a simple collective farm family from a village in the south of the Gorky region, the most non-black earth. They could buy decent clothes no worse, and maybe better than city ones. They just healed well and then there is a war. And these are my grandparents. My grandfather also did not return from the war, fought in the 46th separate motorcycle regiment, died near Rzhev, a month after the death, the regiment became the 2nd Guards. They also dressed up, but already in the winter it was. Natural fur coat to the word
            3. +4
              7 November 2021 20: 49
              Notice how the people are poorly dressed. Besides the dandy in the hat in the foreground. This is my father-in-law. He then worked in the Economic Council - this is such an invention of Khrushchev and not the worst - and everyone envied him.

              You know, my friends, there are other images. There is a newsreel of the Petsamo-Kirkenes operation, when Meretskov's troops liberated the north of Norway from the Nazis. So there the "liberated Norwegians" come out of the mines in which they were hiding from the Germans. They are quite decently dressed! request Suits, coats, hats ... Men! Sexually mature people who can hold weapons in their hands ... That is, they sat out, waited for "liberation" by someone else's hands, bodies, deaths, and live for themselves; and in 2015, joining the global dislike for my homeland, they even filmed the TV series "Occupation" - about how we now occupied them ... negative
              It is not our fault that our country has withstood one of the worst wars in history, and then rebuilt itself anew. soldier
              Although, of course, there are many questions about what should have been done over the following years, and what was done. The life of people had to be addressed much more intensively. hi
          4. +1
            7 November 2021 15: 29
            Well, yes, everyone is poor, but my father-in-law - wow! Yes there are all pretty well dressed. Especially the girls on the left. Where to them to your father-in-law. Hat. And comparing a street from 1959 to 2021 is like comparing 1959 to 1897.
          5. +4
            7 November 2021 15: 58
            Pay attention to how people are poorly dressed.
            would not have closed the Khrushchev artel (well, of course. Stalin's legacy) And they would not be dressed wretchedly EVERYONE.
            This is my father-in-law. He then worked in the Economic Council - this is such an invention of Khrushchev and not the worst
            because your father-in-law worked there and-
            and everyone envied him.
            1. 0
              7 November 2021 17: 40
              It may very well be. I myself only criticized the economic councils in the classroom on the history of the CPSU ...
        3. +5
          7 November 2021 09: 25
          Namesake, greetings. I also have coffee for breakfast, but instead of cream, 1,5 l. Condensed milk.
          There really was a paradox: a holiday and a coercion.
          Now it's the other way around: coercion and celebration. We were chased on May 1, but there was a feeling of a holiday, and last year we went to demonstrations and there was not that courage. Another era, we have changed too
        4. 0
          12 November 2021 11: 39
          Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Alexei is not the only one who "drools" at the sight of "Parabellum", a gorgeous car, which won many men's hearts with its beauty!
          Vyacheslav Olegovich pleased with the article. The morning was successful. I'm going to cook breakfast!
          For some "jealous" Romanians, I will clarify the coffee is planned with cream! drinks
          And finally, I will join the words of the Leader of all those involved (at least by his birth) with the holiday!
          Yesterday I told my daughter about the demonstrations. Complete misunderstanding in the eyes. As in one bottle, the holiday and coercion coexisted.

          foreword
          He served in the MP, as a grant officer, he had Stechkin on staff, fired from him and from the PM. Well, also from AK-74 and RPK. From an RPG by itself. Now I have a combat pistol. This is to make it clear that I had and have at least something to do with weapons,

          Main part.
          I don't like Parabelum in principle, P38 is much more to my liking.
          Well, and still off topic - I don't like the Glock (I shot from it), but the Berets are very even
          As a coffee lover and owner of a coffee business, I practically don't drink coffee with milk, except when I'm hungry with some kind of croissant. Coffee is espresso.
          I agree about the demonstrations.

          Conclusion.
          Each sandpiper praises its swamp. Or taste and color ...
      4. +1
        7 November 2021 06: 41
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        42 rubles for Luger, 100 rounds for him for 8 rubles can be purchased freely in the store

        Taking into account the gold content of the ruble of 0,773 grams, then 42 rubles of that time is 133 thousand rubles for modern money. At the same time, the Vepr of 308 caliber can be bought for 60 thousand, and not this old pukalka.
        1. +13
          7 November 2021 07: 05
          This pukalka in skilful hands is no less deadly as modern weapons, and in terms of application, there are not so many competitors in the "Eight", you do not feel every barrel as an extension of your own hand. smile
          1. -4
            7 November 2021 07: 11
            To me, too, they compared a self-loading carbine with a rifle cartridge, a comfortable butt stock and a long barrel with accurate combat, with a pistol with very imperfect automatic equipment - difficult to disassemble and assemble and sensitive to pollution.
            1. +6
              7 November 2021 07: 32
              It was not me who compared it, but you compared it.
              At the same time, the Vepr of 308 caliber can be bought for 60 thousand, and not this old fart.
          2. +5
            7 November 2021 07: 39
            Quote: Sea Cat
            This pukalka in skilled hands is no less deadly as modern weapons.

            and nothing to say about the Berdan rifle in caliber 10,75 mm smile
            1. +10
              7 November 2021 07: 52
              Don't mess around. wassat
              1. +8
                7 November 2021 08: 13
                I mean that in skillful hands and a club is deadly.
                after all, this is not a strong enough argument.
                and Chekmarev is right that the royal 42 rubles is not so little money
                I could buy myself a couple of Glocks in Chisinau
                in terms of modern banknotes, of course
                1. +9
                  7 November 2021 08: 21
                  ... the royal 42 rubles are not that little money


                  So I talked about this to our Lyokha from Android. smile

                  Lesh, then money had a completely different purchasing power, or whatever it is called, but the pistol was considered expensive,
          3. +7
            7 November 2021 08: 17
            Quote: Sea Cat
            This pukalka in skilful hands is no less deadly as modern weapons, and in terms of application, there are not so many competitors in the "Eight", you do not feel every barrel as an extension of your own hand. smile

            Greetings, Constantine! hi
            The main thing here is the softness of the trigger - if you don't have to "hit" it, then the shooting will be accurate, heap (the group is dense), and how comfortable it is in the hand is important, but secondary
            1. +7
              7 November 2021 08: 32
              Hi Albert, yes we already spoke today, smile

              That's right, the "Eight" has a soft descent.


              1. +3
                7 November 2021 17: 07
                In theory, it should be soft. Until I took it in my hand - it is not clear
                1. +2
                  7 November 2021 23: 08
                  As with any barrel. smile
            2. +8
              7 November 2021 08: 53
              Here, I picked up another funny machine (this is about the goodness), the pistol was released by the famous Belgian company Auguste Francotte, famous for its hunting weapons.
              1. +4
                7 November 2021 09: 19
                28th p. Expensive, however))
                1. +7
                  7 November 2021 09: 23
                  Expensive, however


                  But - Francott. good



                  One of the firm's guns.
              2. +6
                7 November 2021 10: 32
                Will be about him!
                1. +5
                  7 November 2021 11: 19
                  Great, then I won't speak with the rest here, I'll wait for the article. smile
                  1. +3
                    7 November 2021 17: 42
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    I will wait for the article.

                    Wait ... It's never too late to add.
                    1. +1
                      7 November 2021 23: 23
                      It's never too late to add.

                      This is for sure, amicably and in a race! laughing
                      "The design of the pistol sets the shooter's psyche to confident uncompromising cruelty. This phenomenon has not yet been studied. In many countries, parabellum is declared a weapon of targeted destruction and is prohibited for use." "


                      Not to say that I agree with the above, but one thing is true - at the first personal meeting, this pistol itself asks for in hand. And to kill someone out of him or not, this is a purely personal and situational question. request smile
              3. +3
                7 November 2021 18: 16
                It is not entirely clear what "single-shot semi-automatic" means.
                Do you need to manually insert the cartridge before firing?
                1. +1
                  7 November 2021 23: 10
                  Most likely, he threw out the spent cartridge case himself, and had to load one cartridge by hand.
                  1. +2
                    8 November 2021 07: 49
                    I thought so too, but it was embarrassing that the window for the ejected casings is not enough in appearance in order to insert the cartridge
                    1. 0
                      8 November 2021 08: 01
                      So, when the shutter rolls back, such a "hole" is formed that you can shove your finger there, and not that the target cartridge 22LR. smile

                      This is a photo of a combat one, but Francott's shutter is made according to the same principle.
                      1. +1
                        8 November 2021 13: 05
                        I see, thanks
                        The network often comes across an image of another Francott pistol - with manual reloading
                      2. -1
                        8 November 2021 13: 23
                        Auguste Francott received a patent for this pistol in 1896. Strange, automatic pistols have already been offered, but here ...



                        Details here - Francotte repeating pistol historypistols.ru ›
                      3. +2
                        8 November 2021 13: 48
                        At that time, progress was very fast in hand-held firearms.
                        Against the automatic Borchardt K93, it was quite suitable as a simpler and more compact model, but against Browning or Luger it was already not very competitive.
                      4. -1
                        8 November 2021 13: 56
                        He's not a competitor to them at all, in all respects, but the development is very funny.
                      5. +2
                        8 November 2021 14: 29
                        With Borchardt, another target group.
                        It is inconvenient to wear it for self-defense

                        easier than Francott, although he is not a self-loading
                        But Browning is another matter

                        A pistol of a completely different level. So is Luger too. Against them, Francotta is already gray-haired old times.
                        However, they write that Francott's pistol was actually not produced - two dozen copies.
                      6. +1
                        8 November 2021 15: 23
                        I say, an interesting attempt, but nothing more.
                        True, there were systems and even weird ones. smile


                        In 1855, engineer Joseph Christian Enouy patented a revolver with an unusual power system. The revolver of Charles Osborne of the 1845 design was taken as a basis, while the innovation consisted in a system of eight changing drums.

                        Here is such a "mill". laughing
        2. +12
          7 November 2021 07: 23
          Quote: Chekmarev
          Taking into account the gold content of the ruble of 0,773 grams, then 42 rubles of that time is 133 thousand rubles for modern money. At the same time, the Vepr of 308 caliber can be bought for 60 thousand, and not this old pukalka.

          What surprises me is an attempt to compare the cost of a long-barreled hunting rifle with a short-barreled pistol, through quality characteristics. Nothing bothers you!
          1. +14
            7 November 2021 07: 34
            Vlad, are you not yet accustomed to the speculation of amateurs on this site? It's about time already, what year have you been serving ... smile
          2. -6
            7 November 2021 07: 42
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            What surprises me is an attempt to compare the cost of a long-barreled hunting rifle

            Vepr-308 is a carbine, not a gun!
      5. +9
        7 November 2021 07: 26
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        I would have a time machine

        My wife says the same thing all the time ... But she is interested in linen sheets and natural products from the market.
        1. +10
          7 November 2021 07: 31
          And also "firewood, kerosene and thread" (C)
          1. +8
            7 November 2021 08: 57
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            "firewood, kerosene

            No, no, no firewood ... She drank up to her throat with them in the village ...
            1. +5
              7 November 2021 09: 06
              Here I am about the same. And then it is a vital necessity.
        2. +8
          7 November 2021 07: 37
          She is practical like any housewife, which is quite natural.
          Hello, Vyacheslav and Happy Holidays! smile drinks
          1. +9
            7 November 2021 08: 58
            And you too, dear Konstantin, happy holidays!
        3. +7
          7 November 2021 07: 40
          Quote: kalibr
          Quote: Lech from Android.
          I would have a time machine

          My wife says the same thing all the time ... But she is interested in linen sheets and natural products from the market.

          And me the conversion of salt into gold coins laughing
          1. +7
            7 November 2021 09: 23
            Will not give a ride, "Pale of Settlement", you know ... laughing
            1. +4
              7 November 2021 17: 05
              I will pass for an Arab wink
              And even in one sentence I can give: Stop shooting, turn off the engine, pull out the key, open the trunk, let the ksivu, get everything out of your pockets, have you ever been arrested. And with a separate sentence: Khaybar, Khaybar, O Jews, Muhammad's army will return yet fellow
              1. +3
                7 November 2021 17: 16
                Arabs at the beginning of XX in RI, as rare as gold coins in the provinces
                1. +2
                  7 November 2021 17: 20
                  So you shouldn't go back to the 20th century for the sake of salt / coin))
                  Middle Ages
              2. +3
                7 November 2021 17: 19
                Khaybar, Khaybar, O Jews, Muhammad's army will return yet
                in sha'a Llah
        4. +8
          7 November 2021 08: 33
          Quote: kalibr
          But she is interested in linen sheets and organic products from the market.

          You probably have roots in the city.
          And, perhaps, you will not understand my sadness.
          But I often remember homespun rugs, rugs, embroidered house towels and lace napkins that craftsmen made at home.
          1. -7
            7 November 2021 08: 35
            Quote: Flood
            But I often remember homespun rugs, rugs, embroidered house towels and lace napkins that craftsmen made at home.

            belay How old are you? 80? It seems that since the 50s, when we overcame the post-war devastation, the need to spin and sew ourselves has already disappeared.
            1. +6
              7 November 2021 09: 00
              Quote: Chekmarev
              How old are you? 80? It seems that since the 50s, when we overcame the post-war devastation, the need to spin and sew ourselves has already disappeared.

              Indeed, my grandmothers and great-grandmothers in the eighties did not spin or weave anymore.
              Although homespun from earlier years of production was still in use on the farm.
              But they embroidered, weaved lace. And all the walls were hung with the products of their hands. Carpets, paintings, napkins, runners, towels ... do not count.
              1. +9
                7 November 2021 09: 15
                Quote: Flood
                Indeed, my grandmothers and great-grandmothers in the eighties did not spin or weave anymore.
                Although homespun from earlier years of production was still in use on the farm.

                My wife, following the memory and dictates of her heart, tied two entrance rugs under the door.
                Tradition and desire to do something beautiful with your own hands. At one time I was surprised and kept silent, but after your comment I begin to understand it. Not everyone is looking for images of the past in iron and wood.
                hi
                1. +6
                  7 November 2021 10: 31
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  following the memory and dictates of her heart, she tied two entrance rugs under the door.

                  And I embroider pictures. I insert them into beautiful frames and hang them on the walls.
                2. -2
                  7 November 2021 17: 46
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  Tradition and desire to do something beautiful with your own hands.

                  Our ancestors jumped along the branches and ate each other. Do you consider this a "tradition"?
              2. +10
                7 November 2021 09: 19
                Lord, to whom are you trying to explain this? It won't work anyway. negative
                "IPhone, smartphone, intercom ... laughing
          2. +9
            7 November 2021 09: 00
            Quote: Flood
            You probably have roots in the city.
            And, perhaps, you will not understand my sadness.
            But I often remember homespun rugs, rugs, embroidered house towels and lace napkins that craftsmen made at home.

            Fourth generation of townspeople. But in my old wooden house where I lived until 1976, all this was. And the wife I brought there in '74 also remembers all this and still longs for this house ... So I understand you perfectly. I even brought this house out in my novel Three from Ensk. In the novel, this is the house of Boris Ostroumov ...
      6. +7
        7 November 2021 09: 02
        42 rubles for a Luger, 100 cartridges for him for 8 rubles can be freely purchased in the store ... brothers drool ...
        - present a hexagonal felt-tip pen? am
        The pre-war scale of prices was very different. At the beginning of the 36th century, the income of a laborer in Russia was 48 rubles. per year, the income of a worker - 90 rubles a year, a skilled worker - 85,5 rubles. a year, an employee - 200 rubles a year. The elite's servants received up to 250 rubles a year, a teacher - 300 rubles a year, a priest - 400 rubles a year, a railway worker (an exceptionally privileged caste at that time, cooler than cosmonauts today) - XNUMX rubles a year. Teachers, priests and railroad workers also kept servants with this money - a thing unthinkable for this category today.
        The general financial position of the officers depended on their military rank. The annual salary of generals as of June 1, 1907 was 2100 rubles, lieutenant generals - 1800 rubles, major generals - 1500 rubles, colonels - 1200 rubles, lieutenant colonels - 1080 rubles, captains (equivalent to a modern major) - 900 rubles. ., staff captains (captain according to the present day) - 780 rubles.
        A bottle of vodka 30 kopecks, a bottle of cognac 1,5 rubles, a pair of boots 5-8 rubles, a pair of cowhide boots 7 rubles.
        The pre-war gold ruble was valued at 0,774235 pure gold. 42 rubles is 32,5 grams of gold. Today the gold rate in the Bank of Russia is 4 rubles. per gram. The cost of the lugger, respectively, is 117,00 thousand 133 rubles. Rosstat swears by my mother that the average salary of a teacher in Russia (I don't believe according to Stanislavsky) is 676 rubles. fellow
        1. +4
          7 November 2021 09: 18
          For comparison, the cost of a shot with a Para 9X19 cartridge (Baltic Shooting Center) is 50 rubles, which corresponds to the price of a trip in a St. Petersburg minibus
          1. +8
            7 November 2021 09: 49
            Let's recalculate the rate of 42 rubles. taking into account eternal values.
            Our days. Vodka "Starley" - Internet price 270 rubles. bottle. Lugger price - 495 bottles.
            The beginning of the XX century. The price of vodka is 30 kopecks. bottle. Lugger price - 140 bottles. wassat
            1. +5
              7 November 2021 09: 59
              The "sandwich index" is influenced by many factors, such as government monopoly. Then for vodka, now for weapons.
        2. +7
          7 November 2021 09: 28
          Quote: Old electrician
          Rosstat swears by my mother that the average salary of a teacher in Russia (I don't believe according to Stanislavsky) is 45 rubles.


          Uh-huh the average temperature in the hospital! Since last year, from the official data of Rosstat, it turns out to “squeeze out” only “the consolidated budget by regions” on a quarterly basis. The rest of the key parameters of the constituent entities of the Russian Federation (unemployment rate, average nominal salary) hang only for the last year or January 2021.
          On a request for the population in the subject - you get a manual for its calculation! To be honest, it’s not funny - it’s impossible to do work analytics in principle.
        3. +6
          7 November 2021 10: 28
          Quote: Old electrician
          Teachers, priests and railroad workers also kept servants with this money - a thing unthinkable for this category today.

          Yes, my great-grandfather was a master of locomotive workshops. Had five children. 4 sons and 1 daughter. He gave education to everyone, married his daughter to a colonel (!) Of the imperial army, and she was a teacher of the French language. The "woman" was invited to wash the floors in the house, and also to wash the linen - the "laundry". But even my grandfather, who was a teacher and head of the Penza city council, until the end of the war, my wife herself did not wash or clean the house. All this was done by the visiting servant!
    2. +16
      7 November 2021 05: 59
      Good morning friends!
      I join in congratulating you on the holiday! soldier
      My usual gratitude to Vyacheslav for a good morning mood. good
      I look, you know, at Borchard, you know, Luger and the mood rises by itself smile , which I sincerely wish you all. drinks

      I love old graphics, catalogs were excellently designed at that time. These drawings from the shop of the Warsaw Hunting Association for 1913/14, our Vic Nick sent it to me at one time, and so it came in handy. smile
      1. +4
        7 November 2021 08: 26
        "ramrod and screwdriver, with a can of oil" thought that the ramrod and screwdriver were included
        1. +6
          7 November 2021 08: 34
          So now the ramrod goes separately, as a rule.
          1. +3
            7 November 2021 14: 59
            So now the ramrod goes separately, as a rule.

            Hello, Konstantin!
            PM, and to this day the most massive pistol in Russia, comes complete with a spare magazine, holster, strap and wiper (it is in one person a ramrod, screwdriver and drift, attached to the holster). Oiler - one for 4 pistols.


            Best regards,
            Michael
            1. +1
              7 November 2021 23: 07
              Good evening, Mikhail!

              I wrote "As a rule" smile ... As for Makar, during his service he was with us a carriage pistol, so I know. smile drinks
              1. +1
                7 November 2021 23: 41
                I wrote "Typically"

                Well, so I talked about the most massive, which turns out the same "as a rule".

                Happy Holidays! drinks
                1. 0
                  7 November 2021 23: 43
                  Happy Holidays to you too and all the best! drinks
              2. +2
                7 November 2021 23: 48
                PS
                Do not be offended if something is wrong! This is my professional literacy, and concepts like
                - always;
                - usually;
                - often;
                - often;
                - in some cases;
                - in some cases, etc.
                are perceived differently.

                hi
                1. +1
                  7 November 2021 23: 56
                  Yes, there is nothing to be offended at. smile

    3. +8
      7 November 2021 07: 29
      Holiday greetings.
    4. +2
      7 November 2021 07: 41
      Vyacheslav, nice to read your article, thank you! The question of such a plan is, do you think that the party of "Serbian" Lugers in Russia could be a private order made by a certain weapon fan of this type of weapon from Russia? advertising. And, what did not fuse with the implementation is unsuccessful marketing ...
      1. +5
        7 November 2021 09: 02
        Quote: Thrifty
        could it be a private order made by a certain weapon fan of this type of weapon from Russia?

        Now I am just reading about it. People break spears with fervor. We are not a couple and they cannot decide ...
    5. +10
      7 November 2021 08: 06
      The same story as with the "Mauser". For gentlemen officers there was an offer to buy at their own expense. So everything is real.
      Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
      And yes. Happy Holidays everyone!

    6. +6
      7 November 2021 08: 37
      You can take it, but you will take care of the cartridges yourself.
      Meanwhile, in the tsarist army, officers were allocated a large number of cartridges for firing from standard weapons. Various competitions were held, ranging from regimental and ending with the imperial show. At each such competition, the winner was given a commemorative sign. Badge, cigarette case, lighter, etc. usually silver, and even with gold overlays, personalized weapons are also decorated. In general, the Government made sure that the officers did not lose their rifle uniforms. Unfortunately, this did not take root. Moreover, in the military unit in the old days, only 2 people received bonuses at the end of the year: the financier for saving money (?) And the unit commander, incl. for saving ammunition.
  2. +5
    7 November 2021 06: 22
    Yes, not a lot, but not empty either!
    1. +10
      7 November 2021 07: 17
      Quote: Dunkelheit
      Yes, not a lot, but not empty either!

      Considering that this is the fifth article of the Luger cycle, and the Author is planning a continuation. I think very, very not bad! hi
  3. +6
    7 November 2021 07: 31
    Comrades, I'll read later, but now I'm running.
    Not a working day, but bosses don't give a fuck
    1. +3
      7 November 2021 09: 32
      Quote: vladcub
      Comrades, I'll read later, but now I'm running.
      Not a working day, but bosses don't give a fuck

      As I understand you!
      I'll go to the namesake to torment the certificate, and so all morning I was freezing.
      1. +3
        7 November 2021 14: 19
        At the very same: to pass on the 8th, but I DO NOT WANT!
  4. +6
    7 November 2021 07: 33
    Comrades, from November 7! This is our youth, and youth is not forgotten
  5. +13
    7 November 2021 07: 45
    And I would like to wish Happy Birthday to Mikhail "Trilobite Boss" and Albert "Krasnodar"!
    Guys, may everything be fine with you!
    1. +8
      7 November 2021 09: 04
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      And I would like to wish Happy Birthday to Mikhail "Trilobite Boss" and Albert "Krasnodar"!

      Bah! It's so good that you wrote about this !!! I join and wish you all the best!
      1. +6
        7 November 2021 09: 38
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        And I would like to wish Happy Birthday to Mikhail "Trilobite Boss" and Albert "Krasnodar"!
        Guys, may everything be fine with you!

        I sincerely join in congratulations to Anton and Vyacheslav!
        Guys, the most important thing is that your desire does not leave you, to create, live and love! Well, more often look at VO !!!
        Sincerely, Vlad!
        P.s. Traditionally, for my forgetfulness, Nikolai dipped his face into a kalgushka, today my friend Anton! recourse
    2. +6
      7 November 2021 10: 21
      And from me the most sincere congratulations to Mikhail and Albert! Health and good luck!
    3. +5
      7 November 2021 12: 12
      Oops! Is it their birthday today?
      I sincerely join in the congratulations. Best, very best! fellow
      Anton, my compliments! hi
    4. +5
      7 November 2021 14: 21
      Happy Birthday. Misha, Alik! Good luck to you!
    5. +4
      7 November 2021 17: 31
      Thank you, colleagues.
      The event, of course, is not so-so, but still pleasant. smile
      1. +4
        7 November 2021 20: 01
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        The event, of course, is not so-so, but still pleasant.

        Happy Birthday Michael!
        Health to you and your family! love
    6. +4
      7 November 2021 20: 03
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      I want to wish Happy Birthday to Mikhail "Trilobite Boss" and Albert "Krasnodar"!
      Guys, may everything be fine with you!

      With your permission, I will also join in the congratulations! hi
    7. Fat
      +2
      7 November 2021 21: 15
      O! Although with a "delay" I want to join in the congratulations.
      Albert, Mikhail, Happy Birthday to you! and "may the great palace be with you"
  6. +8
    7 November 2021 08: 00
    For 60 rubles in tsarist Russia you could buy a good cow, a cavalry war horse cost 120-150 rubles, and the annual salary of, for example, a captain (equated to a modern major) was 900 rubles, i.e. 75 rubles a month, is it a lot, or not enough? This is three to four times higher than the average salary of a factory worker, or an average employee, for example, an accountant, which was from 16 to 25 rubles, with this money it was possible to live quite satisfyingly and even rent a three or four-room apartment ...
    The officer, in addition, had to buy uniforms, and often a horse, on the salary he received, so not everyone could afford to pay 60 rubles for a pistol ...
    1. -3
      7 November 2021 08: 05
      Quote: bistrov.
      so, not everyone could afford to pay 60 rubles for a pistol ...

      Bakeries are not smart enough to understand the difference between the tsarist gold ruble and the modern ruble, which has no gold content.
    2. +8
      7 November 2021 09: 05
      Quote: bistrov.
      not everyone could afford ...

      It was impossible to marry to the rank of captain. There was nothing to support my wife!
      1. +4
        7 November 2021 10: 45
        Kuprin, in the person of Lieutenant Nikolaev, will not agree with you.
        1. +3
          7 November 2021 10: 50
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          Kuprin, in the person of Lieutenant Nikolaev, will not agree with you.

          I didn’t come up with it myself ...
        2. +4
          7 November 2021 21: 01
          Kuprin, in the person of Lieutenant Nikolaev, will not agree with you.

          I will join. You're right.
          I will retire to the ages - as far as I remember, under Peter it was impossible to marry ignoramuses until they passed the state exam for literacy and arithmetic.
          1. +4
            7 November 2021 21: 07
            Well, at least somewhere I'm right except for the medieval dough.
            1. +3
              7 November 2021 21: 16
              Well, at least somewhere I'm right except for the medieval dough.

              By the way, according to Kuprin there is an interesting series of 2013. The last part of the "Duel". Filmed well, addictive.
              Although there are inaccuracies. When the hero of Roman Madyanov, Captain Sliva, explains to an uneducated recruit about the rifle, he admits the saying: "Mosin rifle".


              "Three-line" never officially bore the name of Mosin! stop Mosin himself was very offended by this. sad
      2. +4
        7 November 2021 11: 27
        - Captains are different ... smile Gentlemen, officers who came from wealthy families could afford! The Life Guards officer, observing some conventions, such as: An apartment in a decent area, servants and departure, ammunition and uniforms "to order" could not be poor ... those who could not afford it left the guards regiments ...
  7. +3
    7 November 2021 08: 21
    Comrades, if I screw up, confirm that V.O. is to blame.
    I imagined that I would be late with respect and ... took the tablet
    1. +4
      7 November 2021 09: 42
      Quote: vladcub
      Comrades, if I screw up, confirm that V.O. is to blame.
      I imagined that I would be late with respect and ... took the tablet

      Glory almost for the sake of God with flirting!
      If we screw up, we blame the Military Review in general or Vyacheslav Olegovich in particular !! laughing
      Good luck in job!!!
      1. +3
        7 November 2021 14: 16
        Thanks. Both the site and the V.O. Without V.O. The site will lose the site.
        It seems that Astra expresses his feelings: Valery, V. O and Edward. She is an emotional creation, but right: without them, the site ... There will be no one to read
  8. +8
    7 November 2021 10: 09
    There is a fairly convincing version that Luger samples with two crossed rifles and inscriptions in Bulgarian appeared in Russia after May 31, 1902, Prince Ferdinand I took over the patronage of the 54th Infantry Regiment of the Russian Army, which from April 11, 1909 was already called The 54th Minsk Infantry Regiment of His Majesty the Tsar of Bolgar Ferdinand the First, and the Lugers of the Bulgarian order were presented to the officers of this regiment.
    1. +6
      7 November 2021 10: 21
      Very interesting. I have not met this, otherwise I would have written. The version is really convincing. Thank you!
  9. +6
    7 November 2021 11: 28
    I can't say anything about pre-revolutionary Russia, most likely there were ordinary commercial supplies, but in the USSR in 25-32. supplied through the OGPU-NKVD line, several thousand pieces (no more than 3000) in 9x19 caliber. Sorry, I can't give you a link, - said a comrade who served at OSBON, told for a long time, I then ran to school smile , now as you understand neither that comrade, nor sources .., but maybe someone interested and will unearth (this is me, in the development of the topic, so that "the continuation should follow ...") wink Happy Holidays to all those present!
    1. +4
      7 November 2021 12: 06
      Quote: vick vickers
      in the USSR in 25-32. supplied through the OGPU-NKVD line, several thousand pieces (no more than 3000) in 9x19 caliber.

      This is a known fact without reference.
  10. +7
    7 November 2021 11: 58
    Vyacheslav Olegovich deftly lay down in the bushes, armed with a luger, - I did find a partisan and overtake with congratulations:
    Happy holiday, our dear Author! love
    Happy holiday, dear friends! love
    Not with what was once formed by the movement of the masses of people, lined up in columns, but with what remained in the soul and still excites with general unity and high spirits. When everyone was celebrating - big and small party workers, members of the Central Committee and the Politburo, agitators and propagandists, workers, collective farmers and engineers, military men and doctors, that is, without exception, the entire population of the country, everything!
    But no one will ever experience that special kind of spiritual joy and happiness from universal unity, never! It's a pity. It turns out that I need it now.
    1. +3
      7 November 2021 12: 07
      Thank you for your congratulations, very nice!
  11. +8
    7 November 2021 12: 10
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    Kuprin, in the person of Lieutenant Nikolaev, will not agree with you.

    I didn’t come up with it myself ...

    In fact, there were no restrictions for officers to marry in the tsarist army, but ...
    The bride had to go through an "interview" with the regimental ladies (there was a kind of women's council, which was headed by the spouse of the senior officer of the regiment), which approved or did not approve ... and gave their recommendations, on the basis of which the regimental commander allowed or did not allow the officer to get married ... Something like this...
    This means ordinary army units, the guard had their own troubles.
    1. +5
      7 November 2021 12: 41
      Taking into account that the junior officers, as far as I understood, excluding the navy, in many respects came not from nobles, but from commoners endowed with hereditary nobility, such "women's councils" were supposed to become a source of subconscious arrogance for the officers. They say that we are now entitled to young ladies, not peasants. Was it not all this in the aggregate that prompted the White Guards to fierce resistance to the Reds? Prospects that you didn't want to lose?
      1. +3
        7 November 2021 12: 54
        Was it not all this in the aggregate that prompted the White Guards to fierce resistance to the Reds? Prospects that you didn't want to lose?


        You are partly right, I will get into the discussion a little ...
        High-born officers went over to the side of the Red Army, and with a simple origin, such as Denikin, Kornilov, they became ardent fighters against Soviet power. Why go far, take the novel "Doctor Zhivago", remember such a character, the white general Galiullin, the son of a Moscow janitor. Such people were very proud of their ascent to the nobility, but here they equalize in rights.
        1. +4
          7 November 2021 13: 24
          Why not get involved in the discussion? )))
          Everyone can give an opinion. Moreover, there is no particular discussion, but your addition is extremely valuable, and leads to another thought. These children of the janitors, on the other hand, with the red, drove the whites - couldn't they see themselves as "the chosen ones," albeit within the framework of a different ideological reality?
          And then it turns out that in the conditions of the self-elimination of the tsarist system, a struggle broke out between the "children of the janitors", which was won by one group of "children", and another group of "children" in white uniforms lost. And the winning side, without losing in the least its janitorial "dreams," the same as the losers, penetrated into all government bodies and ideological strata, began to undermine the structure of the state being built in its own interests, and undermined it!
          Unfortunately, the red experiment failed.
          1. +6
            7 November 2021 13: 36
            Unfortunately, the red experiment failed.

            Human nature is hard to fix. Soviet Power tried to educate a person of new thinking, but ...
            Again, the war, it knocked out the first first Soviet generation, which selflessly defended the country ... born in 1922-1926. And this generation was brought up differently.

            This is Pavel Kogan ... Since childhood, I did not like the oval, I drew an angle since childhood ...
            He died near Novorossiysk, being the translator of the reconnaissance group.
            And when his widow, Elena Rzhevskaya, died in 2017, not a single TV channel remembered her, a writer, a military translator, a participant in the investigation into Hitler's suicide.
            1. +3
              7 November 2021 14: 01
              Since childhood, I did not like the oval, since childhood I drew an angle ...

              From somewhere I know these verses, and I have always known. And it looks like ...
              But if we use your, in my opinion, very apt terminology, then it is extremely unprofitable for the current "children of janitors" to remember those who could turn smooth ovals into sharp questions, and even more so remind "children" of their janitorial origins in every sense.
              1. +3
                7 November 2021 14: 06
                Others were people, not all, but there were. Here is a fragment of his poems

                But to the people of the United Motherland,
                It is hardly given to them to understand
                What a routine sometimes
                Led us to live and die.
                And may I seem narrow to them
                And I will insult their lightness,
                I'm a patriot. I am Russian air,
                I love the Russian land,
                I believe that nowhere in the world
                The second one can’t be found,
                So that it smells like that at dawn,
                So that the smoky wind on the sands ...
                And where else can you find such
                Birch trees, like in my land!
                I'd die like a dog from nostalgia
                In any coconut paradise.
                But we still get to the Ganges,
                But we still die in battles,
                So from Japan to England
                My Motherland shone.
                1940-1941

                Also listen to his song
                https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YxDA701l0qQ
                Wrote this song at the age of 19, music by Grigory Lepsky, 1937 ...
                1. +6
                  7 November 2021 14: 58
                  They would say right away - "Brigantine")))
                  How many times in my student days I sang with a guitar. And in the evening in the hostel from all the windows - Russian rock, and the growing disco. I appreciate both, but "Brigantine" is, apparently, our prohibitively distant future, inexplicably beautiful and therefore mystical. We flew past him, and it - no, did not lag behind us. Having picked up speed, it is far ahead. Will we catch up? )))
  12. +6
    7 November 2021 13: 23
    Men have always had a craving for beautiful weapons, here is a photo from Varalbom. Under the belt, in my opinion, Luger, a valuable trophy. Our Winners.

  13. +4
    7 November 2021 13: 25
    Quote: depressant
    Taking into account that the junior officers, as far as I understood, excluding the navy, in many respects came not from nobles, but from commoners endowed with hereditary nobility, such "women's councils" were supposed to become a source of subconscious arrogance for the officers. They say that we are now entitled to young ladies, not peasants. Was it not all this in the aggregate that prompted the White Guards to fierce resistance to the Reds? Prospects that you didn't want to lose?

    As always, in this matter, not everything is clear ... I did not just clarify about the army units, in them the customs were by no means the capital-guards (not in all of course ...) But I will give a specific example.
    A friend of my grandmother from the peasants of the Omsk province from, as they say, middle peasants, married an officer in 1911 at the age of 17, and the same "women's council" not only approved the marriage, but took up her education and upbringing, she was taught etiquette, dancing, instilled a taste for good literature and painting, her husband taught her to play the piano. According to her stories, the regimental ladies dealt with her very "tightly". As many verses by heart as she knew ..; determine by ear the author of the muses. works from the first notes .., in general, the attitude towards people ... In general, I have never met a more intelligent person in my life, and this despite the fact that officially there are three classes of the Central School of Music. But I repeat, this is one specific example, but in general it was of course very different, and I believe that what you wrote about was more widespread, but there were also such examples ...
    1. +5
      7 November 2021 14: 19
      In general, I have never met a more intelligent person in my life, and this despite the fact that officially there are three classes of the Central School of Education.

      Your story, dear colleague, made me - again! - to think, and what kind of education was that - TsPSh? And my grandmother in early childhood graduated from the same two or three classes, but, being a peasant child, after these classes throughout her life she remained an extremely well-read and intelligent person. I suspect that the children were taught that teaching is not just light, but raises a person to a higher social level in comparison with those who did not go through this training. Or it allows you to rise to a higher step. Break out of the lower circle and go to the upper one. In this regard, I can imagine what the expectations were among the officers of different ranks, who graduated from the officer's schools during the tsar's time. But those who did not graduate from the gymnasium were not taken to such schools. And if 2 or 3 classes of the TsPSh gave an installation for life, then the intensity with which most whites fought for their future that did not take place is understandable. Hundreds of thousands of personal tragedies. I guess the soldiers did not understand them.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. +2
        7 November 2021 14: 34
        Sorry, I can't insert an image
        Verbal counting. In the folk school of S. A. Rachinsky
        look in a search engine and ... try to solve the problem right away smile
        this is to the topic of TsPSh
        1. +4
          7 November 2021 15: 00
          Why should I search?
          I know this picture very well.
          There is such a problem on the board)))
        2. +3
          7 November 2021 15: 41
          ... In the folk school of S. A. Rachinsky

          This was an exception to the rule, Rachinsky thus "went" to the people. And the author of the picture, the artist Bogdanov-Belsky, was his student. And this school was far from the Central School. There weren’t even such enthusiasts to leave the professor’s position at Moscow State University to the countryside. This picture cannot be used to judge education in Russia at that time. And if it were not for Bogdanov-Belsky, few people knew about Sergei Alexandrovich Rachinsky. He was lucky with a student.
          1. +3
            7 November 2021 16: 14
            I agree with you, but in my opinion the main thing in the picture is the faces of the children, look what they are ... I believe that the attitude to education was laid in the family; and the attitude of children to school, to study, to the teacher at that time did not greatly depend on whether an old sexton from a local parish teaches you, or a professor of Moscow State University who has gone to the people - of course, schools were different and the level of teaching was also different, but this the attitude to study, as the knowledge of the world and oneself in it ... for some reason, the graduates of THOSE primary schools have preserved for life .., but now: a diploma in their pocket, once a quarter to the theater - and you are already an "intellectual" towering above the gray herd around you, you have reached the "ceiling". Casemate some relation to life, don't you think, Colleague? Sorry to be a little emotional, but how did it happen ...
  14. +3
    7 November 2021 14: 05
    Quote: Konnick
    Was it not all this in the aggregate that prompted the White Guards to fierce resistance to the Reds? Prospects that you didn't want to lose?


    You are partly right, I will get into the discussion a little ...
    High-born officers went over to the side of the Red Army, and with a simple origin, such as Denikin, Kornilov, they became ardent fighters against Soviet power. Why go far, take the novel "Doctor Zhivago", remember such a character, the white general Galiullin, the son of a Moscow janitor. Such people were very proud of their ascent to the nobility, but here they equalize in rights.

    Hmm ... a janitor in a tuxedo is still a janitor winked and a samurai without a sword is the same as a samurai with a sword ... only without a sword ... Yes I believe here the point is that the inner I did not keep up with the external attributes of growth, in the end, "intelligence is a state of mind and soul, and not a diploma of higher education."
    1. +4
      7 November 2021 14: 23
      I believe here the point is that the inner I did not keep up with the external attributes of growth, in the end, "intelligence is a state of mind and soul, and not a diploma of higher education."

      I agree.
      Somehow I was told the words of one head of the HSE department, she said in all seriousness that an intelligent person should go to the theater once every three months ... in the criterion feel
      Yes, a kind country grandmother is more intelligent than this doctor of sciences.
      1. +7
        7 November 2021 15: 27
        Oh, Nikolai, and with how many frank fools doctors of sciences and fools I have worked with ... And I'm not talking about intelligence ...
  15. +4
    7 November 2021 14: 42
    Quote: Chekmarev
    To me, too, they compared a self-loading carbine with a rifle cartridge, a comfortable butt stock and a long barrel with accurate combat, with a pistol with very imperfect automatic equipment - difficult to disassemble and assemble and sensitive to pollution.

    You know, my dear friend, there are things that are pleasant to take in hand, but there are not.
    So, picking up the P08 you feel that it was made, well, I don't know, if not with love, then with respect and professionalism, that's for sure. By the way, the same feeling from the C96. But picking up TT, PM or Kalashoid, there is a feeling of careless functionality as a maximum. And with all due respect to the functionality of these devices. The same can be said about comparing, for example, a Beretta rifle with our IZhak. At the same time, I cannot say that my IZhak is inferior to the Beretta in terms of accuracy and sharpness of the battle.
    PS And about the exact battle at the Boar .... he is very different happens. And if the Boar has a dream limit of a minute, then my Blazer, for example, gives 0,5 of that very minute easily. Despite the fact that the Blazer, I personally consider a rather miserable weapon specifically for hunting.
    PS Thanks to the author for an interesting article as always. good
    1. -5
      7 November 2021 17: 53
      And you know, my dear, with this you spat in the face of all our ancestors who beat the Nazis:
      Quote: KSVK
      But picking up a TT, PM or Kalashoid, there is a feeling of careless functionality as a maximum

      People like you, during the war, served the Nazis as policemen and hivis. And they did the dirtiest work, like executioners and cleaners, like Tonka the machine gunner.
      1. +5
        7 November 2021 18: 55
        Quote: Chekmarev
        People like you, during the war, served the Nazis as policemen and hivis. And they did the dirtiest work, like executioners and cleaners, like Tonka the machine gunner.

        You wrote this in vain, Evgeny. You do not have sufficient grounds for this. You should read the memoirs of the Soviet tanker Chibisov, who fought on the Matilda tank. There he compares our weapons and the British, the English tank and its accessories and ours. He wasn’t a policeman, was he? But he writes about the same thing.
    2. +2
      7 November 2021 19: 43
      hi
      "But taking TT, PM in your hands" - hmm, picking up and using after TT PM, you feel the concern of the party and the government, shooting has become better, shooting has become more fun! For the PM “kicks” less and is more “grasping”.
      1. +4
        7 November 2021 21: 04
        shooting has become better, shooting has become more fun! For the PM “kicks” less and is more “grasping”.

        I agree. The handle is much more comfortable. No matter how scolded the PM, it is better to shoot from it than from the TT - that one has a thinner handle, and almost at a right angle. Lies in the hand not in the best way.
        1. +2
          7 November 2021 21: 29
          Lies in the hand not in the best way.

          Here Luger differs from other pistols in its ergonomics due to which the accuracy of shooting from it is better. Even on wikipedia it is noted

          The main advantage of the "Parabellum" is the high accuracy of shooting, achieved due to the comfortable anatomical handle with a large angle of inclination and easy descent.
          1. +4
            7 November 2021 21: 48
            Here Luger differs from other pistols in its ergonomics due to which the accuracy of shooting from it is better. Even on wikipedia it is noted

            Nikolay, I think you are right. Although I did not hold Luger in my hands. He shot from PM, TT, Margolin, once - from a sports Nagant. The latter has a frankly suicidal reloading system, for me personally complicated by the "sport anatomical handle" with the necessary protrusions and notches. The fact is that I am left-handed, and the revolver was made for right-handers (the aforementioned features of the grip!), And it was especially inconvenient for me to shoot ... recourse
            Well, and I was not supposed to be more! request
            Although the cadet was holding this monster in his hands, they brought it for familiarization (photo from the Internet):

            This is OTs-20. A smooth-bore five-shot hybrid of a "revolver for the Wild West" and a "shotgun for the West is already modern". wassat drinks
            1. +2
              7 November 2021 21: 56
              Shot from PM, TT, Margolin, once - from a sports Nagant

              I fired only from the PM, there is nothing to compare, but at the officer training camp I knocked out 27 out of 30. You just need to be able to separate the index finger from the rest of the hand so as not to pull the pistol when descending drinks Luger's grip tilt is like a sport pistol, almost like Margolin's.
  16. +4
    7 November 2021 20: 01
    Quote: Chekmarev

    People like you, during the war, served the Nazis as policemen and hivis. And they did the dirtiest work, like executioners and cleaners, like Tonka the machine gunner.

    You, deeply disrespectful, keep your wet fantasies about "Tonki-machine-gunners" with you.
    It's about people like you Vladimir Semyonich sang: "..the giraffe is big, he knows better."
    It's like you stretched out your hands in fascist greetings. People like you tacitly approved of mass shootings. With the tacit approval of people like you, those who are now in power have destroyed and plundered a great country. And it is under the approving pseudo-patriotic yelling of people like you that they continue to do this.
  17. +2
    7 November 2021 20: 47
    What can be said about this article? The history of the appearance of "Luger" in Russia at the beginning of the 20th century is presented rather vaguely ... The author told the "soldiers" that version of the history of the appearance of "Luger" in the Russian Empire, which he knows and which he adheres to. ..But there are also "slightly" other versions! One of them, I have already "issued" on page VO, as an amendment to the answer to my comment ... It must be, somewhere, in the comments to the penultimate article "about ,, lugers"!
    1. 0
      8 November 2021 06: 56
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      But there are also "slightly" other versions!

      If you know a lot of them, then God himself ordered you to write an article about them as a response to this material. Try to keep within 10000 characters and that all photos are public domain.
    2. 0
      8 November 2021 11: 16
      Is it really necessary? "Gilyak is a reader; not a writer! Moreover, I have already inserted my" three kopecks "in the comments! "slightly" other versions! One of them, I have already "issued" on page VO, as an amendment to the answer to my comment ... It must be, somewhere, in the comments to the penultimate article "about ,, lugers"!
  18. +3
    7 November 2021 20: 52
    "Parabellum" - good! But "Walter" is the best ... not bad either! "Walter"! "Walter"!
    1. +1
      8 November 2021 15: 47
      But "Walter" is the best ..


      Better is better, namely P.38. good drinks
  19. -4
    9 November 2021 11: 37
    Luger's pistols

    In fact, there is nothing interesting in the Luger, except for a bright appearance and a strange design.
    It is no coincidence that after 1939 all German combatant officers were re-equipped with Walter. And Luger was left only to the staff. That is, those who use it for its intended purpose would almost certainly not have to.

    Mosin rifles

    There has never been such a rifle in wildlife and never has been. This is an erroneous designation of the three-line arr. 1891 g.
  20. 0
    18 November 2021 19: 20
    I have already seen the Bulgarian version, our others and on them the royal coat of arms.
  21. 0
    7 December 2021 23: 59
    Caption:
    And this is how the stamp with the rifles and the stamp of the DWM company looked on the pistol itself. Rockyland Arsenal Photo


    Semyon seed ...
    This is a Mauser remake.





    Simpsonltd still sells one for $ 3750.


    And here, for some reason, the DWM brand is designed differently ... Photo of the Rockyland Arsenal


    And here the grandmother said in two ... They sell a lot of things on Rockyland ...

    Best regards,
  22. 0
    15 January 2022 03: 00
    Quote: Snail N9
    khinsteinov, soon you will even keep kitchen knives in the police

    That's for sure! All these Kremlin-bearers, especially the schizophrenic Khinshtein, need to be drunk with something to the point of unconsciousness, dressed up in T-shirts with the inscriptions "Crimea is ours!" Let's see how long they can hold out there without weapons.