Where did bullpup begin

54

Thornycroft rifle, first model 1902 Steel, walnut. Dimensions: barrel length 740 mm, total length 1 mm, total weight 020 kg Royal Arsenal, Leeds

Like everything created in the century,
has a beginning as well as an end,
and the ending is obvious.

Ezra 9: 5

History firearms weapons. And it so happened that the first samples of such a weapon, that is, with a magazine in the butt, appeared a very long time ago. William Joseph Curtis proposed his design in 1866, Samuel McClean in 1896.


Diagram from US patent # 723706 for the 1903 McClean rifle. It is clearly seen that in this rifle the magazine was located in front of the trigger and its bracket, and the bolt is controlled by a sliding wooden clutch connected to it by a lever!


Schematic from a 1903 McClean rifle patent. In this diagram, the sleeve is pushed onto the magazine


The device of the shutter box and store

In 1901, the English inventor James Byrd Thornycroft (1851-1918), who was born in Wolverhampton in April 1851, contributed to the creation of the bullpup weapon. Thornycroft worked with metal all his life and even received the honor of becoming Lord Lieutenant of Ayrshire and Arran in Scotland. And he also developed the first real bullpup rifle, which competed on an equal footing in the competition for the best rifle for the British army.




Schematic of the Thornycroft rifle "first sample". British Patent No. 14622, Jul 18, 1901

He began working on his brainchild shortly after the outbreak of the Boer War, when newspapers began to print stories of its participants that the Lee-Metford and even Lee-Enfield rifles (which replaced Lee-Metford) were too long and therefore inconvenient in the trenches but even more uncomfortable for riders.

And Thornycroft came up with a happy idea ... to shorten the rifle, but not by changing the barrel length, but by rearranging it. And in 1901 he already received a patent No. 14622 dated July 18, 1901 for it.

It was a bolt-action rifle, but its bolt moved back through the butt almost to its entire length, which made it possible to reduce its size as much as possible, while maintaining the same barrel length. The rifle was chambered for the standard .303 British cartridge (7,7 mm) and had a five-round Lee system magazine.

Where did bullpup begin
The so-called Lee-Enfield Mk I short rifle, model 1903. Army Museum, Stockholm

The Thornycroft rifle was 7,5 inches (190 mm) shorter and 10% lighter than the Lee Enfield rifle. But during the tests at Hite, its impact was considered excessive: the ergonomics were assessed as unsatisfactory.

As a result, it was not accepted into service.

Rifle Thornycroft "second sample" had similar data and even outwardly resembled the first sample, which the military rejected. Barrel length - 635 mm, total length - 970 mm, total weight - 3,46 kg. The designer, however, understood that he had to do something with the rifle, improve it, going towards the military and ...

A second sample was created. All parts of the new rifle were covered with wood, while its entire front part was almost identical to the Lee-Enfield rifle.


Rifle Thornycroft "second sample". Shutter view

On the right side of the box was a lever that compressed the spring of the magazine, lowering its pusher and any loaded cartridges below the level of the bolt, that is, it acted as a cutoff of the magazine. The rotary bolt had two locking lugs and was controlled by a handle bent downwards. The extractor was located on the underside of the shutter. Bayonet - standard, British, army model of 1888. For its installation, the appropriate fastening parts were provided.


Rifle Thornycroft "second sample". Right view

On the third sample of his rifle, the inventor worked not alone, but together with Mubray Horus Farquhar and Arthur Henry Hill. Moreover, Thornycroft lived in Mauchlin, Ayrshire, Farquhar - in Aboyne, Aberdeenshire, Scotland, and Hill lived in Birmingham, Warwickshire, in England.


Diagram of the rifle from the American patent of 1907 No. 827893


Diagram from patent No. 827893. The device of the store and the chamber

In fact, this rifle "started from scratch", that is, it was redesigned in the most radical way. The bolt looked different, with a straight grip, and the shape of the butt also changed very much. The bolt could now be removed by pressing a button on the upper surface of the butt. The combat platoon was abandoned in favor of an internal trigger with a roller bearing, which made it possible to install a wooden "cheek" over the bolt.

The barrel was redesigned: the ears were taller to protect the sight, and the barrel tape was moved forward to cover the nose protrusion.

It is curious that for some reason the rifle did not have (in any case, it is not on the surviving rifles) a corresponding eyelet for attaching a bayonet. A new butt plate was installed, modeled on the SMLE rifle.

Thornycroft also developed his own new scope design, patented by him about three years earlier, and graduated for shooting at distances from 200 to 2 yards, and adjustable in both height and horizontal plane.

The rifle did not have a conventional fuse, but an original vertical lever was provided, located next to the chamber and the bolt handle, which could be folded back and thus the bolt was locked. The ejector was plunger at the end of the bolt.


Thornycroft rifle, "third model" model 1907. Barrel length - 676 ​​mm, total length - 1 003 mm, weight - 3,39 kg

It should be emphasized that the Thornycroft rifle (interestingly, the name of its co-authors was forgotten, and it was never called, for example, the "Thornycroft-Farquhar rifle") was not just a modified version of Lee-Enfield, but became his original brainchild from start to finish.


Lineup of Thornycroft rifles. 1902, 1903, 1906, and 1907 prototype models, documented starting July 18, 1901

The barrel of the rifle was almost entirely covered from above with a wooden lining, and from the bottom by a stock, so it was impossible to get burned on it in the event of prolonged shooting. A separate metal frontal ("bow") part of the box was combined with a projection for a bayonet. And there was also an adjustable platform with a triangular front sight and curved side flaps. As was customary on army rifles, a folding "salvo" sight was provided on the left on the stock.


Rifle "Thornycroft" М1907. View of the bolt and butt

A curved wooden cover was attached over the cylindrical "bolt" bolt with two lugs, serving simultaneously as a "protrusion" under the shooter's cheek. It also served as a limiter for the linear sliding stroke of the bolt during reloading, resting against a metal protrusion in the rear of the butt.


Rifle "Thornycroft" М1907. Close-up view of the shutter. The funnel-shaped recess on the wooden cladding under the safety lever is clearly visible

The role of the safety catch was played by a hinged hinged lever located in a hemispherical "recess" next to the bolt handle, so that it would be more convenient to hook it with a finger. In this version, the rifle turned out to be quite convenient, but its reloading forced the shooter to raise his head in order to be able to freely move the bolt.

The built-in five-round magazine system was also not compatible with clips, despite the usual top-down loading. Which, of course, the military considered a serious drawback.

Compared to the rifles in service, Thornycroft's weapons were 19 cm shorter and 10% lighter (3,36 kg) than their competitors.

The entire model range did not go through the full cycle of tests, which were carried out from mid-1902, and gave way to the shortened SMLE-versions of Lee-Enfield rifles, which were already in service with the British army. Nevertheless, it was one of the real steps towards the creation of modern bullpup automatic rifles.
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54 comments
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  1. +10
    26 October 2021 18: 06
    Vyacheslav Olegovich! The article and the photo, as always, are beyond praise. hi
    1. +7
      26 October 2021 18: 08
      And the Author himself too. smile drinks
      1. +13
        26 October 2021 19: 45
        The article and the photo, as always, are beyond praise.
        There is such a thing ... Almost simultaneously with Thorneycroft, a similar system was proposed to the British army by a certain Godsal,
        However, his magazine rifle in the bullpup layout was also a failure. It is always difficult for the pioneers, but these were the first ...
        1. +7
          26 October 2021 22: 03
          Quote: Crowe
          It is always difficult for pioneers, but these were the first ...

          Well ... "by and large" the "bullpup" weapon can be attributed to the "product" of Kaspar Kalthoff (17th century) or rifles of the 19th century ... for example, Meigs, Evans with magazines in the butts! Here are who were the first!
      2. 0
        27 October 2021 03: 33
        Quote: Sea Cat
        And the Author himself too.

        Unfortunately, the author drives a lot of hack, but this article is excellent.
        1. -1
          27 October 2021 07: 20
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Unfortunately, the author drives a lot of hack

          To make the cow moo ...
          1. 0
            27 October 2021 08: 13
            Quote: kalibr
            To make the cow moo ...

            Iii? Your cow (literary translations) will never run dry. It's just that this particular article is an unusual topic, that's all its advantages.
            1. 0
              27 October 2021 08: 17
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              It's just that this particular article is an unusual topic, that's all its advantages.

              You just don't know anything specifically about it. About something else - you think you know, that's all.
              1. -2
                27 October 2021 08: 20
                Quote: kalibr
                You just don't know anything specifically about it. About something else - you think you know, that's all.

                The fact that the Angles are the founders of the unusual layout? Do not flatter yourself, I personally knew this long before your article. But not in details, I didn't bother, you know.
                1. +2
                  27 October 2021 10: 32
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  I personally knew this long before your article.

                  Erudition is always good!
  2. +5
    26 October 2021 18: 13
    After all, it is possible with such an arrangement with an upper plate and make the trunk hung out.
  3. +5
    26 October 2021 18: 13
    Thanks, very interesting .
  4. +13
    26 October 2021 18: 38
    The British then returned to this "bullpup" anyway, having created a very unsuccessful weapon under the SA-80 program
    The L85 Individual Weapon (IW, as the British Army called the rifle version), the L86 Light Auxiliary Weapon (LSW), the L22 Carbine and the L98 Cadet Rifle.


    Even after the modernization of the SA80 family by the German company Heckler & Koch (the new modification entered service with the British army under the name L85A2), most of the weapon problems were not removed.

    The quality and reliability of this weapon can be judged by the fact that the British SAS (SAS), during operations behind enemy lines in Iraq, replaced these rifles with American M-4s, which, as you know, are not particularly reliable either.
    1. +5
      26 October 2021 19: 55
      Light support weapon L86 (LSW). A machine gun, even such a mmm ... manual and store, is somehow wrong to translate as an auxiliary weapon.
      1. +2
        26 October 2021 20: 07
        ... is somehow wrong to translate as an auxiliary weapon.

        The question is not for me. laughing It is obvious, after all, that the main weapon of an infantry unit is a rifle, and a machine gun supports a squad, platoon, or company with fire.
        1. AUL
          +1
          27 October 2021 13: 23
          Quote: Sea Cat
          It is obvious, after all, that the main weapon of an infantry unit is a rifle, and a machine gun supports a squad, platoon, or company with fire.

          Well, this is when how! During the Second World War, the main weapon of the infantry unit for the Germans was just a machine gun, and the rest of the unit's soldiers ensured its safety.
          1. +2
            27 October 2021 14: 16
            Well, we're not talking about the Wehrmacht; in the L85 / 86 situation, the squad's main weapon is yes, an automatic rifle. It just seems to me that "support" is more suitable for a machine gun than "auxiliary". I was not even too lazy to look at the explanatory dictionaries, they are rather on my side; most for the fact that "auxiliary" = "secondary", and not about support.
          2. -2
            27 October 2021 16: 44
            This tactic was born exclusively during the battles in Stalingrad when combing buildings. Ahead along the corridor, a machine gunner walked in the center, pouring continuous fire on the space in front of him, and two machine gunners covered him from the flanks.
            1. AUL
              0
              27 October 2021 17: 51
              Quote: Sea Cat
              This tactic was born exclusively during the battles in Stalingrad when combing buildings.

              The Germans have been using this tactic since the Polish campaign of 01.09.39/XNUMX/XNUMX.
              1. -1
                27 October 2021 17: 58
                In what cities and what houses did they have to comb in this way in Poland?
                1. AUL
                  0
                  27 October 2021 18: 28
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  In which cities and which houses did they have to comb in this way

                  What does combing have to do with it? For the Germans, the infantry squad was built around the machine gun throughout the WWII!
                  1. -1
                    27 October 2021 18: 49
                    Can't you quote an excerpt from their instruction?
                    1. AUL
                      0
                      27 October 2021 19: 27
                      Search for yourself. I'm lazy.
                      1. -1
                        27 October 2021 20: 14
                        Me too. In general, everything is clear. hi
    2. Aag
      +1
      27 October 2021 15: 42
      Quote: Sea Cat
      The British then returned to this "bullpup" anyway, having created a very unsuccessful weapon under the SA-80 program
      The L85 Individual Weapon (IW, as the British Army called the rifle version), the L86 Light Auxiliary Weapon (LSW), the L22 Carbine and the L98 Cadet Rifle.


      Even after the modernization of the SA80 family by the German company Heckler & Koch (the new modification entered service with the British army under the name L85A2), most of the weapon problems were not removed.

      The quality and reliability of this weapon can be judged by the fact that the British SAS (SAS), during operations behind enemy lines in Iraq, replaced these rifles with American M-4s, which, as you know, are not particularly reliable either.

      hi Agree, poor-quality performance can vulgarize any advanced idea, ruin ...
      Not an expert, but it seems that this is the case. If not right, correct, please.
      1. 0
        27 October 2021 16: 46
        Just British weapons have always traditionally been distinguished by high quality workmanship, but this rifle was initially flawed precisely structurally.
    3. +2
      27 October 2021 17: 15
      Quote: Sea Cat
      The quality and reliability of these weapons can be judged by the fact that the British SAS (SAS), during operations behind enemy lines in Iraq, replaced these rifles with American M-4,

      Not on the American M4, but on the Canadian C7 and C8 Diemaco in 5.56x45, but this is almost the same.

      Quote: Sea Cat
      auxiliary weapon L86 (LSW)

      LSW - light support weapon - light support weapon.
      Quote: Sea Cat
      American M-4s, which, as you know, are not particularly reliable either.

      Who told you about the reliability of the M4?
      1. -1
        27 October 2021 17: 24

        Who told you about the reliability of the M4?


        Do you need to name your surnames, or will you manage to do that?

        By the way, I did not say a word about reliability, just the opposite.
  5. +6
    26 October 2021 18: 49
    Many thanks. Extremely interesting. hi
  6. +14
    26 October 2021 18: 55
    And it so happened that the first samples of such weapons, that is, with a magazine in the butt, appeared a very long time ago. William Joseph Curtis proposed his design in 1866

    If you do not know in advance what kind of object it is, then Curtis's invention can be mistaken for anything, but not a weapon.
    In metal it looks like this.

    On the drawing, however, to understand. that this weapon is simpler.

    And so they shot from this rifle.
    1. +15
      26 October 2021 19: 42
      Yeah, so this is where the legs grow from ...
      In 1910, the Frenchman Faucon took over the development of an army rifle in a bullpup layout. He set himself the task of modernizing the newest experimental self-loading rifle of the Meunier system in such a way as to make it as comfortable as possible to shoot from it in a standing position, from a knee or on the move. Faucon's patent was entitled "Balanced Rifle" (Fusil équilibré), due to the fact that according to the designer's version the weapon was located over the shooter's shoulder, balancing on it, so that most of the mass of the weapon fell on the shoulder, and not on the arms. In this version, the butt plate was located under the weapon, in front of the store and in the area of ​​the center of the masses, and under the front of the weapon there was a pistol grip for fire control and a trigger. For its time, it was a very original design, well ahead of its time.
      The American Fordyce in 1918 set himself about the same task as Faucon before the war, with the only amendment that Fordyce decided to adapt a light machine gun for shooting "on the move". The first step was to modify the conventional Lewis machine gun so that it was located on the shooter's shoulder in a combat position. To hold the weapon and control the shooting, an additional handle with a trigger connected to the standard length of the rod was attached to the barrel casing from below. The second step was to get rid of the "unnecessary" butt and add a loop through which the hand is threaded so that the weapon is more securely held on the shoulder. And finally, in the most radical version of the design, the inconvenient Lewis disc was replaced by the original magazine with an endless closed belt, in which the cartridges were located perpendicular to the barrel and rotated 90 degrees before being fed into the barrel. It is not known whether all variants of the Fordyce system existed in metal, but the simplest version of the Lewis machine gun alteration looked quite realistic for its time.
      Well, it went on, went on ...
      1. +10
        26 October 2021 20: 45
        Well, this "illustration" will be nicer ...! wink

        Focon-Meigne rifle
      2. +9
        26 October 2021 21: 21
        Crowe
        a comment!
        Wonderful comment!
    2. +8
      26 October 2021 20: 42
      By the way, Curtis's rifle could have been "easily" completed, into an automatic one ... Which, in my opinion, was pointed out by Curtis himself ... tongue
    3. Aag
      +3
      27 October 2021 15: 50
      Quote: Undecim
      And it so happened that the first samples of such weapons, that is, with a magazine in the butt, appeared a very long time ago. William Joseph Curtis proposed his design in 1866

      If you do not know in advance what kind of object it is, then Curtis's invention can be mistaken for anything, but not a weapon.
      In metal it looks like this.

      On the drawing, however, to understand. that this weapon is simpler.

      And so they shot from this rifle.

      NS! This should be sent to the site of underwater hunters in the section "Weapons" - "Homemade"! ...
      By the way, there are sometimes connoisseurs of "shooters", which undoubtedly gives them some head start in terms of design.
  7. +7
    26 October 2021 20: 02
    Hmm. Interesting design. Here only the question arises: on rifles 1902 and 1903, the bolt moves at an angle to the barrel. Moreover, in two planes. How, in this case, is the fit of the sleeve bottom to the shutter mirror ensured?
    1. +8
      26 October 2021 20: 57
      Well ... about the Thornycroft rifle Model 1907. can be viewed here .....
      1. +5
        26 October 2021 21: 39
        Quote: Nikolaevich I
        Well ... about the Thornycroft rifle Model 1907. can be viewed here .....

        Yes, with these, later samples, everything is clear. Here is the usual longitudinally sliding bolt, coaxial to the barrel. But the first samples ...
        Even if we assume some kind of articulated connection of the boltface with the bolt stem, the question of the striker remains. what If only a short spring-loaded firing pin in the body of the bolface and a pusher with a ball and a mainspring in the stem ... wassat
        Moreover, the lugs with such a scheme should not be located on the bolt face, as in the classical scheme, but on the bolt stem. By the way, in the photo with an open shutter, you can see something similar.
        1. +6
          26 October 2021 22: 32
          Quote: KSVK
          Yes, with these, later samples, everything is clear. Here is the usual longitudinally sliding bolt, coaxial to the barrel. But the first samples ...

          Well .... it remains to "think" over the patent scheme of the "first sample" of Thornycroft and turn on the "imagination"?
    2. +5
      26 October 2021 20: 58
      By the way, I also did not understand ... but in general, under Olegovich's articles about weapons, there is a lot of interesting information. Maybe now colleagues will tell you ... thank you all good
  8. +8
    26 October 2021 20: 23
    Thornycroft worked with metal all his life and even received the honor of becoming Lord Lieutenant of Ayrshire and Arran in Scotland.
    Where is the logic????
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    1. +5
      26 October 2021 21: 24
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Where is the logic????

      Do you think I know? This is a literary translation of an article from an English magazine ...
    2. +7
      26 October 2021 21: 58
      Where is the logic????

      Logic in origin. Vyacheslav Olegovich, according to his custom, was in a hurry, as a result the logic disappeared.
      The father of James Baird Thorneycroft was the famous steel businessman and prominent Tory George Benjamin Thorneycroft of Wolverhampton, the city's first mayor.
      Unfortunately, a more or less decent biography of James Byrd Thornycroft I did not appear only in his obituary. It follows that he was the owner of coal mines in Scotland and an active politician with the Scottish Conservatives.
      So his whole life from birth is connected with metal. and Lord Lieutenant is the result of political activity.
      1. +4
        26 October 2021 22: 12
        Thank you Victor Nikolaevich!
        1. +8
          26 October 2021 22: 20
          Yes, I myself wondered who this Thornycroft was. There are many Thornycroft, but we managed to read some details of the biography of the one we were interested in only in the obituary published in the Glasgow Herald on December 16, 1918.
  9. +8
    26 October 2021 20: 25
    I was thinking of redesigning some of my barrels for bullpup. It's a good idea. But natural laziness (and so it shoots well) and some design features that are difficult to execute in ordinary life without the use of, for example, a milling cutter did not allow me to do this. And so, I repeat, the idea is good. Only with optics not everything is clear. But if without optics, I am for.
    1. +4
      26 October 2021 20: 58
      Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
      I was thinking of redesigning some of my barrels for bullpup.

      now the new gun law seems to prohibit any alterations. My arsenal has halved ... sad
      1. +8
        26 October 2021 21: 17
        Hmm ... I'm not bothered yet. But I also live in the darkness-cockroaches. And there is always the opportunity to simply drown the trunk - I am not me and the house is not mine - let them search. True, then there will be problems with use, but it does not matter for me, except for me and the sable (this is my dog), hardly anyone will be around at least 25 km. Hunting inspector? God ... he's my neighbor. The only problem is the Russian Guard ... they change them all the time, you can't agree. Although they are afraid to touch us too much.
        1. +7
          26 October 2021 23: 40
          Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
          The only problem is the Russian Guard ... they change them all the time, you can't agree. Although they are afraid to touch us too much.

          All the same! And the National Guard is not a problem, but they will never find it! Here is a precinct (if local and sensible), it's hard to hide from him. But if local and intelligent, I agree with you!
          1. +8
            26 October 2021 23: 55
            I remembered a joke: Neighbor and why are you watering the beds with oil? Flowers will die! Fuck them flowers! The main thing is that the machine gun does not rust!
  10. +6
    26 October 2021 20: 36
    The author, as always, is on top.
    1. +4
      26 October 2021 21: 54
      The highest dream is height, height.
  11. +2
    27 October 2021 11: 38
    In this article, the "emphasis" is on multi-charge "bullpads", but there are examples of "single charges"! 1. For example, there is a rifle, which seems to be of the usual kind, but with loading from the butt end, that is, the open "breech" part of the barrel reaches the butt end and a folding bolt or vertically sliding bolt is located at the butt end ... It turns out that when firing, the shutter rests on the shoulder ...
    2.This article contains images of Curtis and Faucon-Mignet rifles, where the butts, "breeches" of the rifles "go" over the shooter's shoulder! On the sites of the "hitmen" there are diagrams of breech-loading rifles (shotguns) "16-18 centuries" with loading from the butt end, from the "breech", which are behind the shooter's shoulder when firing! The essence of the "invention" is that the gates of such "breech-loading" can be primitive and made by any (or almost any ...) artisan-armsman! The presence of a breakthrough of a part of the powder gases through the shutter is not essential; since "Outflow" of gases occurs behind the shoulder as "no rollback"! As a result, "short" rifles (shotguns) with a long barrel are obtained!
  12. Aag
    +2
    27 October 2021 16: 52
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Just British weapons have always traditionally been distinguished by high quality workmanship, but this rifle was initially flawed precisely structurally.

    I will stumble, not special ... But, I think, you will not argue that the constructive and the idea (the use of "dead" volume, length) are also different things. hi
    And how beautifully they embodied the idea in constructive, metal ...

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