Soviet tanks at war

184

Photo: press service of the Central Military District

With the outbreak of World War tank troops are beginning to rearm - a whole line of vehicles has been developed to replace the old ones: T-35 - KV, T-28 - T-34, BT - A-20, T-26 - T-50, T-37A / T-38 - T- 40. The problem was that to replace the huge arsenal of old tanks, the same huge arsenal of new tanks was required, and it was not possible to produce it quickly. She was also in the extreme unreliability of engines and running new machines, and also in an organizational mess - when old models are no longer produced, as well as components for them, and the production of new ones has not yet begun. More precisely - started, but a teaspoon per hour.

But this was all decided, something else was not decided - the look at the use of tanks, which was seen in the style of the attack of the Yakovlev brigade at Khalkhin Gol, in numerous and dense masses. For this, new mechanized corps were sharpened - little motorized infantry, little low-speed artillery, weak air defense, but more than a thousand tanks. And in such conditions, our vehicles could be ideal, tankers heroic to the point of madness. But. Let the number be at least ten times greater, but this advantage was leveled over the order. And the Germans had order not only in battle - their repair and evacuation service was beyond praise, but here ...



At war


Actually, the beginning of the war proved this - the Khatskilevich corps (the strongest mechanized corps of the ZOVO) was driven into the offensive without air defense, without knowing the situation and without the support of the Air Force. And what's the point of the mass of the new KV and T-34, the old BT and T-26? This was the case everywhere - both in the counterattack of four mechanized corps on Brody on the South-West front, and in insane counterattacks on the North-West front. In this sense, the slogan of the commanders of the Red Army could be the English "the king has a lot." Tanks were burned in attacks, thrown with minor breakdowns right on the roads, tanks attacked not only without air defense, but often without infantry. And vice versa, the commanders of the combined arms where they could pull apart the tank divisions - the tanks brought together in the divisions could not provide support to the infantry, but it was needed.

By the end of the summer, sobering began to set in - technology began to run out, and the industry could not make up for the colossal losses physically. And the middle link of the commanders who survived the border battle began to think.

“4th tank brigade with brave and skillful military operations from 04.10.1941. on 11.10.1941/3/4., despite the significant numerical superiority of the enemy, inflicted heavy losses on him and fulfilled the tasks assigned to the brigade to cover the concentration of our troops ... As a result of fierce battles of the brigade with the 133rd and 49th tank divisions and the enemy's motorized division, the Nazis lost 8 tanks , 15 guns, 6 aircraft, 4 tractors with ammunition, up to an infantry regiment, XNUMX mortars and other weapons. The losses of the XNUMXth tank brigade are in units. "

And to think correctly, it was worth getting rid of theoretical illusions and pre-war practice, as Comrade Katukov smashes a German tank division with a small brigade, which the mechanized corps did not manage just a couple of months earlier. The General Staff also thought: divisions of 350 tanks were first stung to 150-200, and then to brigades altogether, with fewer tanks than in the pre-war regiment. But they added motorized infantry, mobile artillery, reconnaissance ... And they also stopped chasing record vehicles, although this happened largely by accident. The war devoured cars, they needed a lot and relatively reliable, the T-34 became such a machine - in all modifications the tank is unpretentious and massive - 65 800 pieces, the most massive series in stories tanks all over the world.

They produced other things, of course, and KV, and light T-60/70 and heavy IS, but it was the T-34 that won the war. An interesting point - in 1941 the Germans were inferior to us in terms of the quality of technology, but were superior in organization and won. By the end of the war, we were superior to them in organization, but inferior in quality - and took Berlin. It is not the technique that is important, but the organization, which we, however, quickly forgot, and as soon as the volleys died down, we began to prepare for the second edition of the Patriotic War.

Tank ocean


Even experts argue - how many tanks were built in our country during the Cold War, or rather, what should be considered tanks, what was ours, and what were our "allies" in the Internal Affairs Directorate? If by types, then we get the following:

IS-2 - 1140 in 1945
IS-3 - 2315
IS-4 - 258
T-10 - 1593 vehicles
T-44 - 1823
T-54 - 16 675
T-55 - 13 287
T-62 - about 20 thousand
T-64 - 1192
T-64A - 3997 for 1990 in service
T-72 - about 30 thousand
T-80 - about 5000 in service for 1990
PT-76 - 3039

As a result, we have not just a lot of tanks, as in the pre-war period, but a lot. It is clear that something was written off, something was distributed to allies around the world, something was simply lost in an army way, but still by 1990 we had a real tank ocean. In fact, our generals and marshals took into account all the mistakes of the Second World War and prepared a full set of tanks for both line units and one more for mobilized units. For tanks, they developed air defense systems, and self-propelled guns, and light armored vehicles, and in general - everything necessary for a war with the whole world taken together. Only the little things were not taken into account - a repetition of the Second World War was not planned, and the nuclear weapon completely overturned strategy and tactics. And not only it - specifically, tanks at the end of the Great Patriotic War had a new enemy - a hand-held anti-tank rocket weapon, light and compact, which only developed later. And later, ATGMs, attack aircraft and helicopters, new types of mines, and even later - attack and reconnaissance UAVs. As a result, the massive use of tanks against a serious enemy became difficult, which the wars proved over and over again, but the love for tanks (in cyclopean quantities) did not pass from the Soviet generals.

It did not pass even after the collapse of the USSR. So, poor Ukraine deeply and expensively modernized the T-64 to "Bulat". As a result:

"Tanks T-64BM" Bulat "due to their heavy weight and weak engine turned out to be ineffective, were transferred to the reserve, and replaced by linear T-64."

However, the T-64A knocked out quite well, even according to Ukrainian official data, 519 tanks were damaged in Donbass and 79 were completely destroyed. , and into the oven and on pins and needles. And this despite the fact that the enemy of the mechanized army was "partisans" with hand weapons, supported by a small number of volunteers with combat experience. Since 2015, tanks have been used at all in a positional front in a peculiar way - as mobile firing points, some kind of ersatz self-propelled guns.

Other wars have shown, in principle, the same thing - without air supremacy, without a large and well-trained infantry, a modern tank is a crypt for the crew, armor has long been no panacea, and means of destruction have stepped very far forward. And the role begins to play not mass, but quality. Although what is new in this? In principle, the same World War II, only at a different technical level, the organization beats the number.

Where does the question come from - does the modern Russian Federation need a lot of tanks? Or is it less, but better, and with the rest of the funds to train motorized riflemen, anti-aircraft gunners, electronic warfare, UAVs? Tanks are our symbol, they are the best in the world, but in 1941 they did not bring benefits in accordance with the invested funds, and in 1991 they became one of the factors in the death of the country, due to their large number and high cost. It is not in vain that the Ministry of Defense is in no hurry with Armata, rearmament is money, colossal money, and a jerk of tank armies to the English Channel is somehow not foreseen, and it has not been possible since Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Times are changing, and this, too, must be understood and kept up with them.
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  1. +19
    16 October 2021 06: 25
    It is necessary to be more precise, more precise ...
    a whole line of machines has been developed to replace the old ones: T-35 - KV, T-28 - T-34, BT - A-20,
    The A-20, although it was going to replace the BT, was only a milestone tank, when creating the T-34, and it was he who replaced the BT tanks, and the T-28 was being prepared to replace the T-29 ...

    Even experts argue - how many tanks were built in our country during the Cold War, or rather, what should be considered tanks, what was ours, and what were our "allies" in the Internal Affairs Directorate? If by types, then we get the following:
    IS-2 - 1140 in 1945
    IS-3 - 2315
    IS-4 - 258
    T-10 - 1593 vehicles
    T-44 - 1823
    T-54 - 16 675
    T-55 - 13 287
    T-62 - about 20 thousand
    T-64 - 1192
    T-64A - 3997 for 1990 in service
    T-72 - about 30 thousand
    T-80 - about 5000 in service for 1990
    PT-76 - 3039
    Strange some sort of "accounting" ... it seems like the conversation was about how much was built, but for some reason about the T-64 and T-80 there is a postscript "in service" ... And for some reason, the T-64 is divided by type, but no T-64B?
    So, to 1192 T-64 tanks (rev. 432), from 1969 to 1987, T-64A (rev. 434) and T-64B (rev. 447) tanks and their modifications - 12508 were built And this is only one Kharkov plant
    T-80, all modifications (T-80, T-80B, T-80BV, T-80U, T-80UD) - about 10000 tanks were produced by three plants, Leningrad, Omsk and Kharkov
    1. +25
      16 October 2021 06: 36
      The author clearly sat on the wrong skate. BTVT - how could it be softer to explain it to him, not his topic.
      Crumpled up, crumpled up articles from magazines and submitted them as "hot".
      1. +13
        16 October 2021 07: 35
        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
        how to explain it to him softer, not his topics

        And what are those that are his? :))))
        1. +13
          16 October 2021 07: 40
          I will not speak for everything. We don't know each other personally. Maybe journalism is not his, but maybe a person in a creative search.
          Anyway. We survived Kharaluzhny and Frolov, we will survive him too.
      2. +21
        16 October 2021 08: 57
        The author clearly sat on the wrong skate

        He did not sit on a skate, but in a puddle with his opus.
      3. +7
        16 October 2021 10: 25
        the strongest mechanized corps ZOVO) drove into the offensive without air defense

        Was there a military air defense system in 1941? She didn't even exist in 1945.
        1. +5
          16 October 2021 14: 02
          Quote: Aviator_
          Was there a military air defense system in 1941?

          Not perfect, it was poorly staffed. Basically formed on the basis of various machine-gun installations ... The main thing is, of course, on the basis of "Maxim"



          But there were many such installations based on old or removed from service machine guns ... mainly aviation, due to their high rate of fire
          Based on PV-1

          YES-2

          ShKAS

          But the DShK began to supplant everyone
          1. +9
            16 October 2021 14: 16
            Rifle caliber, especially ShKAS in air defense - this is from despair. And DShK is serious. But they were sorely lacking. I read that in the fleet, when the boat returned from a combat campaign, the DShK was removed from it and mounted on the next boat leaving for a mission.
            1. +4
              16 October 2021 14: 25
              Quote: Aviator_
              Rifle caliber, especially ShKAS in air defense - this is from despair.

              Well, no one escaped this in all the warring armies were similar installations FOR ... Mass character. Ammunition similar to infantry. Ability to work on ground targets. And on air targets, so maybe we'll get somewhere, so much so that the enemy will not seem a little, and even when the pilot sees that they are being fired at, then how much time did he have to figure out what caliber he was firing at, so that right away scared or you can wait ...
              1. +1
                16 October 2021 15: 25
                Quote: svp67
                Well, no one escaped this in all the belligerent armies there were similar installations

                Well, the Japanese say yes. Did the Germans and Italians have anti-aircraft guns less than 20mm?
                1. +3
                  16 October 2021 15: 38
                  Quote: Ashes of Klaas
                  Did the Germans and Italians have anti-aircraft guns less than 20mm?

                  What is this?




                  Well, the Italians, they were fans of large-caliber machine guns, both in aviation and in air defense ...
                  13.2-mm machine gun MBT ("Mecchanica Bresciana Tempini")

                  13,2 mm Machine gun Breda mod.31


                  1. -8
                    16 October 2021 17: 57
                    Quote: svp67
                    What is this?

                    I put it wrong. It was about
                    Quote: Aviator_
                    Rifle caliber

                    The Germans did not have such dead air defense systems.
                    1. +9
                      16 October 2021 17: 59
                      The Germans did not have


                      What did they not have ???
                    2. +4
                      16 October 2021 18: 01
                      Quote: Ashes of Klaas
                      The Germans did not have such dead air defense systems.

                      There were, on the basis of their "type 08" and MG, they are just in the photo and presented. That was just enough for them, especially in the early years of WWII ... Our aircraft, with the exception of the Il-2 and some bombers, were made of wood, and often percale ... , I-15bis, I-15, I-153, MiGam, LAGGam and Yakam and this was enough
                    3. Alf
                      +1
                      16 October 2021 21: 37
                      Quote: Ashes of Klaas
                      The Germans did not have such dead air defense systems.


                      C 1-46.
            2. +1
              20 October 2021 15: 12
              Almost all DShK and went to the fleet.
              Therefore, by the way, it is quite fun for me to watch the sea of ​​Soviet infantry with the DShK in the generally good Steel Panthers wargame. In the game, yes, a formidable thing, but .... Where from ??
        2. +5
          16 October 2021 14: 35
          Was there a military air defense system in 1941?

          According to the staff in the MK model 1941 of the year, 36 anti-aircraft guns (4 76-mm, 32 37-mm), 57 ZPU (24 12,7-mm, 33 7,62-mm).
          1. +3
            16 October 2021 15: 45
            Quote: strannik1985
            By staff in MK arr. 1941

            And in stock?
            1. +4
              16 October 2021 16: 07
              And in stock?

              Even in the state it is not enough, but even this was not available. In the 2nd TA on November 15, 1944, according to the state, 159 DShK, 52 37-mm MZA, then OZAD RGK (64 DShK, 64 61-K, 16 52-K) was added.
              Despite the fact that anti-aircraft artillery was never the main means of air defense, the tank army at the stage of entering the breakthrough was given a fighter air corps (1944-1945) for organizing air defense and assault for support.
              1. +3
                16 October 2021 16: 18
                Quote: strannik1985
                In the 2nd TA on November 15, 1944 in the state 159 DShK, 52 37-mm MZA, then added OZAD RGK

                This was partially solved by installing the DShK machine gun on the IS-2 tanks.
                and heavy artillery self-propelled guns


                1. +5
                  16 October 2021 17: 53
                  Quote: svp67
                  This was partially solved by installing the DShK machine gun on the IS-2 tanks.

                  As M. Svirin wrote, this installation was anti-aircraft in the first sense of the word - "for shooting at the zenith", with large elevation angles. But as a means of air defense, it did not pass the test - EMNIP, due to problems with aiming and guidance. Nevertheless, the installation was highly recommended for installation on TT and TSAU as a means of self-defense in urban battles.
                  1. 0
                    16 October 2021 18: 02
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    As M. Svirin wrote, this installation was anti-aircraft in the first sense of the word - "for shooting at the zenith", with large elevation angles. But as a means of air defense, it did not pass the test - EMNIP, due to problems with aiming and guidance.

                    So it was intended to conduct a PROTECTIVE fire as part of the unit ...
    2. +4
      16 October 2021 10: 39
      Clearly !!!
    3. 0
      19 November 2021 13: 37
      "The A-20, although it was going to replace the BT, was only a stage tank, when the T-34 was created, and it was he who replaced the BT tanks, and the T-28 was being prepared to replace the T-29 ..." - A-20 was a replacement for the BT, the milestone tank in the creation of the T-34 was the A-32.
      1. 0
        6 January 2022 00: 26
        The dilettante grandfather, A-20 and A-32 were created to resolve the controversial issue of which propulsion unit to use. Initially, they differed only in the absence of wheel drive in the A-32. During the manufacture of the A-32, a change was made to it - the hull length was slightly increased and another road roller was added. There were no more differences in them.
        Neither A-20 nor A32 were any substitute for anyone. This is just a dumb experiment, not a production tank.
    4. 0
      6 January 2022 00: 14
      Quote: svp67
      The A-20, although it was going to replace the BT, was only a milestone tank, when creating the T-34, and it was he who replaced the BT tanks, and the T-28 was being prepared to replace the T-29 ...

      what a bunch of mistakes ... the T-34 was not a replacement for the BT, but the T-28. The T-29 was an unsuccessful experiment and died at a time when the A-20 was not even in the sketches.
      All LT, including BT, were replaced by the T-1941, which was put into service in February 50. The mass production of which was supposed to begin only in September 41st.
      The A-20 (like the A-32) was just a technology runner and was not intended for the series, as was the T-34, by the way. But it seemed that the carrier of the units turned out to be ahead of serial tanks in a number of key characteristics and was adopted as a temporary measure ...
  2. +9
    16 October 2021 06: 25
    An interesting point - in 1941, the Germans were inferior to us in the quality of technology ... By the end of the war, we surpassed them in organization, but inferior in quality.. some dubious thesis.
    1. +18
      16 October 2021 07: 32
      Walter Spielberger in "The Panther & Its Variants" describes a far from complete list of discovered defects of the "panther":
      real angles of elevation and descent of the gun did not meet the specification; the tower, while rotating, "scraped" along the hatches of the driver and radio operator; final drive chains were often torn; transmission broke down regularly; the engine ignited spontaneously; the fuel pumps were constantly failing.

      V. Spielberger adds that later - during the battle near Kursk - too high oil consumption by the engine and jammed hatches of the driver and radio operator were revealed, which is why they were not closed even during the battle.
      According to V. Shpilberger, by the beginning of the Battle of Kursk, the "panthers" literally barely crawled. The engines continued to fail, the transmission was failing, and the fuel pumps were leaking in such a way that fires often broke out in tanks. When, after a long protracted alterations, the first two hundred "Panthers" were still taken to the Eastern Front, two of them burned out from fires in the engines right during unloading, and sixteen more broke down during a short march from the station to the concentration area. In other words, already on the first day of still peaceful operation, 9% of the total number of completely new tanks were completely or temporarily out of order.
      A few more points can be added to the above list of defects: the road wheels often did not support the weight of the machine and fell apart; during the rain, the tower was leaking, and during intensive fire, the crews of the "Panthers" suffered from powder gases to about the same extent as the Soviet tankers in the T-34.
      The Pz.V turret was turning too slowly: a full revolution on hydraulic traction, independent of engine operation, took 60 seconds (Germany's Panther Tank, pp. 57 and 60). For the final turn of the turret when aiming, the use of a manual drive was required. Moreover, A. Lobanov reports that “the rotation speed of the turret depended on the engine crankshaft speed (which required extremely skillful coordination of the actions of the driver and gunner), and at certain tilt angles of the tank, the hydraulic drive was practically unable to ensure the rotation of the tank turret. making him unarmed. In addition, with the engine off, the turret could only be turned manually, due to the imbalance of the turret, its manual rotation with a roll over 5 ° was also impossible "(" Hitler's Tank Forces. The First Panzerwaffe Encyclopedia ", p. 130).
      It should also be mentioned that, among other things, due to the unreliability of the "panthers", the start of Operation Citadel itself was delayed by two months ("Memories of a Soldier", pp. 424–428). This delay, quite possibly, led to the defeat of the Wehrmacht during the Battle of Kursk. And the unfavorable outcome of the Battle of the Arc of Fire for the Germans, in turn, radically influenced the further course of the war, which ended in the unconditional surrender of Germany.
      As far as the combat debut of the "panther" is concerned, according to the American historian S. Zaloga, it turned out to be unsuccessful: during 1943, at most one of four (25%) Pz.VDs was combat-ready at one time or another ( Armored Thunderbolt, p. 95).
      In the future, this "bouquet" was added to the poor quality of the armor, in which, when shells hit, huge cracks often appeared. Stephen Zaloga suggests that this was not only the result of a shortage of molybdenum (by the fall of 1944 its supplies from Norway, Finland and Japan had practically dried up), but also the fact that at least half of the armor plates were incorrectly tempered. The latter, in turn, led to a decrease in its quality by 10–20%. Of course, the massive use of slave labor by workers driven from all over the continent also had an effect. According to S. Zaloga, even in our time, when restoring "vintage" "panthers" in their fuel lines, they find all sorts of rubbish, which clearly ended up there with someone's help. The end gears of the "panther" had to be changed on average every 150 km ("The Panther & Its Variants", p. 161). During the fighting in Normandy, about half of the vehicles abandoned by the Germans had this problem.
      General Paul Hausser, who commanded the 7th Army of the Wehrmacht in Normandy, wrote the following in his reports: During long marches to the battlefield, 20 to 30 percent of all tanks were out of order due to mechanical breakdowns "(Armored Thunderbolt, p. 241). Another 10-12% of the tanks, Hausser adds, broke down during the fighting. Total - up to 40% of German armored vehicles during the battles in Normandy out of order due to various breakdowns. It is interesting that at that time the Panthers accounted for about half of the tank park at Rommel's disposal, the other half was made up of completely “constructively worked out” Pz.IV. Thus, the proportion of German armored vehicles that went out of action in the summer of 1944 on good French highways is quite comparable to the percentage of broken and abandoned Soviet tanks left on the disgusting roads of border districts in the summer of 1941.
      The state of the German tanks of the "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" division in December 1943:

      Despite such hopelessness with the reliability of the Panther, the Germans were delighted with it. Referring to reports on combat use that appeared in September 1943, V. Spielberger in The Panther & Its Variants claims that the "Panther Tank was effective." At the same time, the main factor was not recognized as its technical reliability (or, rather, its complete absence), but "the ability to destroy enemy tanks with impunity at distances of 1500-2000 meters." It was self-hypnosis. With the sights that were on the "Tigers" and "Panthers", it was possible to get into a moving tank at distances of more than 1500 m only by accident. Almost all the duels of opponents then took place at a direct shot distance of up to 1000 m. Accidental hits at long distances do not count. Therefore, the German tanks did not have any advantage in the aiming range.
      1. +2
        16 October 2021 10: 44
        Good comment
      2. +7
        16 October 2021 11: 10
        Numerous technical diseases of the 1943 Panthers were eliminated by the middle of the 44th.
        And the Panther became a very effective tank.
        From long distances they fired at stationary tanks. Tanks don't move constantly
        during the fighting even now.
        1. +3
          16 October 2021 13: 08
          In your opinion, it turns out that the Germans did not throw their "Panthers" and other tanks into attacks, and they were constantly "nagging" at ambushes?
        2. +9
          16 October 2021 14: 03
          Numerous technical diseases of the 1943 Panthers were eliminated by the middle of the 44th. And the Panther became a very effective tank.
          - is this a quote from a forgotten opus of Goebbels' propaganda?
          Serial production of the PzKpfw V "Panther" lasted from January 1943 to April 1945 inclusive. A total of 5976 Panthers were produced.
          During the 2 summer months of 1944, the British examined 176 knocked-out and abandoned Panther tanks, the types of damage were distributed as follows:
          • Armor-piercing shells - 47 tanks (26,7%).
          • HEAT shells - 8 tanks (4,5%).
          • High-explosive shells - 8 tanks (4,5%).
          • Air missiles - 8 tanks (4,5%).
          • Air cannons - 3 tanks (1,7%).
          • Destroyed by crews - 50 tanks (28,4%).
          • Thrown during retreat - 33 tanks (18,8).
          • It was not possible to establish the type of damage - 19 tanks (10,8%).
          Thus, according to the British "after the elimination of numerous technical diseases by the middle of 1944," 58% of the losses of the Panthers on the Western Front in the summer of 1944 were non-combat losses. Is it an efficient tank?
          In total, in 1943, 841 Panther tanks were sent to the Soviet-German front. As of December 31, 1943, 80 vehicles remained operational (ie 10% of production in 1943), another 137 tanks needed repair, and 624 Panthers (74% of the number delivered during the year) were lost ...
          Only from December 1, 1943 to November 1944, 2116 Panthers were lost on the Soviet-German front. Those. The Reich clearly could not cope with the supply of "Panthers" to the front, they were knocked out faster than released. Calling such a tank effective will not turn your tongue.
          The "effectiveness" of "Panthers" is judged by similar episodes. On January 17, 1945, the "Panthers" of the 10th SS Panzer Division "Frundsberg" attacked the city of Herlisheim. American artillery destroyed several tanks on the way, so that only two Panthers broke into the streets of the city. Shooting point-blank, they knocked out several Shermans in a matter of minutes. White flags flashed over the others. Moreover, they were thrown out by the crews of tanks that had not yet entered the battle. As a result, the Germans got 12 serviceable vehicles. It's just that in this battle, the Americans ran out of toilet paper at the most inopportune moment.
          From long distances they fired at stationary tanks. Tanks don't move constantly during combat even now.
          - who would have thought! You have revealed the truth to me!
          I do not have such data on the "Panther", but I have the necessary data on the "Tiger". So, the WELL TRAINED CREW of the "Tiger" AT THE ROOM (once again spelling the WELL TRAINED CREW AT THE ROOM) hit the target 2x2,5 m (this roughly corresponds to the silhouette of the T-34) at a distance of 2000 m with only the fourth round, after 3 sighting rounds. Name me such a mentally retarded tanker who, after three sighting shots at him, will remain in place?
          1. -2
            16 October 2021 14: 36
            “Thus, according to the British,“ after the elimination of numerous technical illnesses by the middle of 1944, ”58% of the Panther's losses on the Western Front in the summer of 1944 were non-combat losses. Is this an effective tank?" ///
            ----
            Panther tanks were usually thrown or destroyed by crews on the Western Front for a very simple and trivial reason - they ran out of gasoline. And not because of breakdowns (which, of course, were also). Germany had a chronic shortage of gasoline.
            If you find similar statistics for the T-34, you will also be horrified. With long marches in 1944-1945. only 1/3 of the tanks reached the target. 2/3 broke down on the road. This was included in the operational plans.
            1. +5
              16 October 2021 16: 22
              If you find similar statistics on the T-34, you will also be horrified. With long marches in 1944-1945. only 1/3 of the tanks reached the target. 2/3 broke down on the road. This was included in the operational plans.
              - Wow! Horrible!
              You will be surprised, but I have not found anything like the terrifying statistics on the T-34 in 1944-1945 that you quoted. Tell me the source? From an interview with tanker A.K. Rodkin, at the front from 1942 to 1945:
              For example, from near Jelgava, moving through East Prussia, we covered more than 500 km in three days. T-34 withstood such marches normally

              Indeed, for T-34 tanks in 1941, a 500-kilometer march would have been almost fatal. In June 1941, the 8th mechanized corps under the command of D.I. The tanker A.V. Bodnar assesses the T-1941 in comparison with German tanks:
              From the point of view of operation, German armored vehicles were more perfect, they failed less often. For the Germans, it cost nothing to go 200 km, on the thirty-four you will definitely lose something, something will break. The technological equipment of their machines was stronger, and the combat equipment was worse.
              .
              Since 1943, the roles have changed. The Wehrmacht command prohibited the Panther marches further than 100 km. Railroad only. In practice, the Panthers were transported by rail at a distance of only 25 km. Because they could not stand longer marches. The machine was extremely crude and, in fact, there were no methods of its treatment within the accepted concept and design.
              On the other hand, "Thirty-fours" got rid of their "childhood diseases" and by the fall of 1943 became an ideal tank for independent mechanized formations designed for deep breakthroughs and detours. They became the main combat vehicle of tank armies - the main tools for offensive operations of colossal proportions. The tanks traveled hundreds of kilometers, intercepting the escape routes of the encircled German divisions and corps.
              In 1944-1945, the situation of the "blitzkrieg" of 1941 was mirrored, when the Wehrmacht reached Moscow and Leningrad on tanks with not the best at that time characteristics of armor and weapons, but mechanically very reliable. In the same way, in the final period of the war, the T-34-85 covered hundreds of kilometers with deep sweeps and detours, and the Tigers and Panthers trying to stop them massively failed due to breakdowns and were thrown by their crews due to lack of fuel. The symmetry of the picture was broken, perhaps, only by the weapons. In contrast to the German tankers of the "blitzkrieg" period, the crews of the "thirty-fours" had an adequate means of dealing with enemy tanks superior in armor protection - an 85-mm cannon. Moreover, each T-34-85 tank commander received a reliable radio station, which was quite perfect for that time, allowing him to play against German "cats" as a team. It was a guaranteed kapets for a fascist cat lover.
              1. -4
                16 October 2021 20: 45
                "On the other hand," Thirty-fours "got rid of their" childhood illnesses "and began by the fall of 1943" ///
                ----
                By the fall of 1943, only the chronically inoperative filters had been replaced.
                By mid-1944, the monstrously primitive tractor gearbox had been replaced.
                And they put up a new tower.
                The tank turned into a combat-ready T-34-85.
                But the build quality of the engines was still poor.
                Zhukov demanded that in each tank formation there should be at least
                quarters of Sherman tanks. Then there was a guarantee that by the end of the march into battle
                a decent number of cars will enter.
                Sherman and T-34-85 were approximately equal in combat qualities, but
                The Shermans didn't break.
                1. +9
                  17 October 2021 07: 39
                  Zhukov demanded that in each tank formation there should be at least a quarter of Sherman tanks. Then there was a guarantee that by the end of the march a decent number of machines would enter the battle. Sherman and T-34-85 were approximately equal in fighting qualities, but the Shermans did not break.
                  - gee-gee-gee! Could you name at least one document in which Zhukov put forward such moronic demands?
                  First, a few words about the contribution of the Shermans to our victory.
                  The USSR became the second largest recipient of Shermans. According to the Lend-Lease Law, 1942 Shermans were sent to the USSR since the end of 4102. Of these, 304 did not have time to go to war, as they were received after 01.01.1945/XNUMX/XNUMX.
                  Further, we will not waste time on trifles and exclude heavy tanks and self-propelled guns based on them, as well as light tanks produced in the USSR from the calculations. The following picture turns out.
                  During 1943, five Soviet factories produced 15 T-696 tanks (including T-34-34 and T-76-34) and 85 SPGs based on the T-1371 tank (SU-34 and SU-85). A total of 122 units of medium armored vehicles.
                  In 1942 and 1943, 507 Shermans were received under Lend-Lease, or 3% of the medium tanks and self-propelled guns produced in the USSR in 1943.
                  During 1944, 3986 T-34 and 10662 T-34-85 were produced. Total 14648 T-34 and T-34-85 tanks.
                  01.07.1944 Shermans were received under Lend-Lease before 1065/01.07.1944/1036. Taking into account the losses, on XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX there were XNUMX Shermans in the units.
                  From 01.07.1944/01.01.1945/1278 to 1944/2343/16, another XNUMX Shermans were received. In total, XNUMX Shermans were received in XNUMX, or XNUMX% of medium tanks (without self-propelled guns) produced in the USSR.
                  Until June 1, 1945, 7235 T-34-85 were produced and 948 Shermans received under Lend-Lease. In 1945, Shermans supplied under Lend-Lease accounted for as much as 13% of the number of medium tanks (without self-propelled guns) produced in the USSR.
                  What we see. Finishing off Paulus, Kursk Bulge, liberation of Kiev, etc. the 1943 operation saw the Shermans on a purely occasional basis. Tell me in what place, in your opinion, would Stalin put Zhukov in his demand "that in each tank formation there should be at least a quarter of Sherman tanks"? If this requirement were met, then out of 17067 units of Soviet armored vehicles in the battles of 1943, no more than 1536 tanks and self-propelled guns would have participated. The question is - what to do with the remaining 15530, and the ACS, if there were no Shermans on them?
                  Until 0.1.07.1944/3828/34, 3455 T-34 and 85 T-7283-1036 were produced. Total 1944 medium tanks without self-propelled guns. Taking into account the combat losses on this date, there were 3108 Shermans in the Red Army. According to the demands of Zhukov, voiced by you, only XNUMX Soviet tanks could participate in the offensives of the spring and summer of XNUMX - less than half of those released. What to do with the rest? Give it to the Germans?
                  In passing, I will note that the supply of Shermans to the USSR began to increase only after it became clear that we would finish off the Nazis without the help of the "allies". You can only hate them for Lend-Lease. I appreciate your loyalty to the Washington Regional Committee, but I do not share it.
                  Now about the Shermans. Compared to the T-34, this is complete ... When the Shermans came to the USSR, the inquisitive Russian mind immediately tested them for strength. It turned out that the Sherman's side armor penetrates from the PTRD / PTRS at a distance of 100 m or less. Sherman's armor was good for homogeneous armor, but it was homogeneous armor. The heterogeneous armor of the T-34 with the same thickness was 30% more effective.
                  Sherman was a tall fool who strove to roll over on bends. Therefore, the accelerated joint marches of the T-34 and the Shermans were difficult. Operations in Romania showed that when driving on hot asphalt in summer, the Shermans' tires fell off their tracks. The throughput and energy intensity of the T-34 was higher than that of the Sherman.
                  the Americans covered their tanks with enamel from the inside. Therefore, having received Lend-Lease tanks, our crews first of all, with the help of a sledgehammer and some mother, beat off this enamel. The fact is that even with a safe ricochet of the shell from the armor, this enamel broke off in small fragments and cut through the skin of the hands to the bone, knocking out the eyes. This alone suggests that amerovskie tanks were intended and are intended for the war with the Papuans, who do not have artillery.
                  Sherman had two advantages.
                  1. The resource of Sherman's rubber-metal caterpillar was 8000 km. In this regard, it was a world record holder. The resource of the T-2 and Panther tracks was 34 km. This was more than enough for military operations. Therefore, Sherman did not have any special advantages in this regard. The reliability of the rest of the Sherman equipment is at the level of the T-1000. Nothing outstanding.
                  2. Even a single T-34 rattled tracks and a diesel engine all over the area. If there was a T-34 convoy, then with its roar, it created a "festive" mood for all the German infantry within a radius of up to 10 km. On the one hand, crushing the German infantry scattering in panic with a roar is certainly a plus. On the other hand, as a minus, it was almost impossible to sneak on the T-34 unnoticed. Sherman in this regard was a very quiet tank. Therefore, in the offensive, the Sherman units were sent into a deep breakthrough. They had to, without getting involved in battles, smash the distant German rear and create panic. T-34, as more resistant to anti-tank equipment, led tank landings, smashed German strongholds and garrisons to capture a bridgehead.
                  1. 0
                    17 October 2021 10: 19
                    "Therefore, in the offensive, the Sherman units were sent into a deep breakthrough" ///
                    ----
                    I wrote about this. T-34s did not reach the end of the breakthrough not only because of the noise and roar. Diesel engines quickly loosened up and went out of order. While the engines were being repaired by the mechanics for three or four days, there were blissful days of rest for the crews.
                2. +3
                  17 October 2021 11: 32

                  voyaka uh (Alexey)
                  Yesterday, 14: 36
                  Zhukov demanded that in each tank formation there should be at least
                  quarters of Sherman tanks
                  . ...
                  This is in what PSS is this displayed? fool laughing in Hebrew? Well then, give me a link! tongue
              2. 0
                16 December 2021 10: 08
                The Wehrmacht command prohibited the Panther marches further than 100 km.

                And the solution is obscenely simple: steam locomotives eat coal. The panthers eat gasoline. The Germans had coal in bulk, and gasoline was counted on.

                An old story: during the Ardennes counteroffensive, one of the main goals of the Germans was to seize the fuel depots of the Americans, otherwise the offensive would simply get up. Why, German tank crews carried hoses with them in order to drain fuel from knocked out American equipment
            2. +4
              17 October 2021 11: 25

              voyaka uh (Alexey)
              Yesterday, 14: 36
              .... With long marches in 1944-1945. only 1/3 of the tanks reached the target. 2/3 broke down on the road. This was included in the operational plans.
              aren't you tired of chasing bullshit yet? fool fool fool
          2. 0
            16 December 2021 10: 05
            Name me such a mentally retarded tanker who, after three sighting shots at him, will remain in place?

            For example, the same tanker in the T-34 who received about thirty non-penetration from the German 37mm in 1941
            1. 0
              6 January 2022 00: 51
              Quote: Ol Willy
              For example, the same tanker in the T-34 who received about thirty non-penetration from the German 37mm in 1941

              laughing
              Do you even know that the rate of fire of this 37 mm cannon was more than 15 rounds per minute, and the battery of 4 guns, respectively, more than 60? The distance of opening fire was in the region of 200-400 meters, depending on the situation, and not 2 km?
              in which circus do you earn money?
              1. 0
                31 January 2022 18: 03
                According to the instructions, for 37mm, 300 meters. Which suggests that the tank crew did not see the enemy’s firing positions point-blank
        3. 0
          6 January 2022 00: 34
          Quote: voyaka uh
          Numerous technical diseases of the 1943 Panthers were eliminated by the middle of the 44th.

          Well, yes, the number of tanks that broke down in the rear decreased from 30 to 10%, and the total number of tanks in the repair shops decreased from 40 to 20%. at the same time, the quality of armor dropped sharply in the fall of 44, just like that of the Tigers ...
      3. +2
        16 October 2021 11: 30
        Quote: Old electrician
        final drive chains were often torn;

        Where are the chains from? Or did Google call the caterpillars that way?
        Your experts contradict each other
        Quote: Old electrician
        full revolution on hydraulic traction, independent of engine operation,

        Quote: Old electrician
        with the engine off, the turret could only be rotated manually,

        Quote: Old electrician
        the turret rotation speed depended on the engine crankshaft speed

        Some of your experts are wrong.
        1. +5
          16 October 2021 14: 25
          You are absolutely right! The translation of my sources is disgusting!
          Quote: Old electrician
          final drive chains were often torn;
          Where are the chains from? Or did Google call the caterpillars that way?

          Naturally, a tank is not a motorcycle, and of course we are talking about tracks.

          Quote: Old electrician
          full revolution on hydraulic traction, independent of engine operation,

          The point is that at the nominal engine speed, a full turn of the tower was carried out in 60 s. If the engine speed was lower, then this was a personal problem for the gunner. By the way, Tiger had the same problems. And vice versa. The T-34 had an electric drive that could work from an electric generator at any engine speed, and for a short time from batteries.

          Quote: Old electrician
          with the engine off, the turret could only be rotated manually,

          As it is written, so read it. With the engine off, the Panther's turret could only be turned manually. The center of gravity of the Panther tower did not pass through its axis of rotation. Therefore, when the tower was tilting, the power of the hydraulic motor was not enough to turn it. Therefore, in this case, too, a German "eh club with a hoot" was required.
      4. +2
        16 October 2021 13: 44
        In the future, this "bouquet" was added to the poor quality of the armor, in which, when shells hit, huge cracks often appeared. Stephen Zaloga suggests that this was not only the result of a shortage of molybdenum

        Straight huge ... where are these experts from? Is there a photo of a huge crack? Written often, photo
        Show


        Some people read such nonsense and think German tanks are crap, so we won.
        1. +7
          16 October 2021 16: 49
          The results of studies of tanks "Panther" of different periods of production 1943-1944. were published in No. 1 of the magazine "Bulletin of Tank Industry" for 1945:
          The armor of the "Panther" car is very diverse in terms of the type of fracture: from fibrous to purely crystalline, and there is absolutely no connection between the chemical composition and the type of fracture.
          The lack of constancy in the nature of the fracture (for parts of the same name in thickness and steel grades) is observed in a number of studies of German armor steel. This allows us to express a certain conviction that during the production of armor, the Germans do not have control over the heat treatment of plates by fracture.
          The lack of such control, it would seem, should be due to a well-mastered and strictly observed heat treatment regime. However, such a wide variety of kinks indicates that, if the technology is established, then its discipline is low. This is confirmed by a wide range of hardness fluctuations, which by itself cannot provide uniform fracture results.

          From the FNII-48 report on the shelling of German tank armor:
          Plates 40 mm thick.
          The sharpest difference in the values ​​of PTP and PSP of a 40 mm thick slab was shown during tests along the normal. The difference in PTP was 82 m / s and PSP - 55 m / s. All three boards have practically the same chemical composition and hardness.
          The different armor resistance is apparently due to the quality of the heat treatment. The plate (aft part of the tank "Panther" No. 2), which showed the best results, had a fibrous break, plate No. 1 (the front inclined sheet of the roof of the tank "Tiger" No. 2), which showed average results, had a dry fracture, and the plate No. 1 (aft part of the tank "Panther" No. 1), which showed relatively worse results, had a fibrous fracture with a fine crystalline rash.
          Two of the three slabs tested at an angle of 0 ° had four spalls on the back side, one of which was substandard (more than four calibers).
          Slabs 60–64 mm thick.
          Different armor resistance of plates is explained by the chemical composition, thickness and quality of fracture. Plate No. 2 (lower frontal part of the tank "Panther" No. 1), which showed lower values ​​of PTP and PSP compared to plate No. 6 (lower frontal plate of the tank "Panther" No. 2), has a thickness less by 4 mm, a relatively worse fracture, and contains less carbon with little difference in other elements.
          Plate No. 14 (upper frontal inclined plate of the tank "Tiger" No. 2), which split during the second shot, differs from the two previous plates by a sharply increased carbon content (0,57%), lower chromium and nickel content, lack of molybdenum and fracture quality - fine-crystalline fracture.
          The reason for the split must be considered a poor chemical composition (high carbon and low content of dopants) in the absence of fiber in the fracture.
          Slabs 80–82 mm thick.
          All seven slabs cracked when tested along the normal, with the exception of slab # 20, which cracked. On these plates, the influence of the chemical composition and the quality of heat treatment was clearly revealed. [When tested] for the resistance of the armor plates No. 15, 16 and 17 (upper right side of the tank "Tiger" No. 2), alloyed with chrome and not containing nickel, split at the first and second hits.
          Plates # 18 and 19 (upper left side of the Tiger # 2 tank), containing approximately the same amount of chromium in the presence of nickel, shattered after the third or fourth hit. Plate No. 18 (tested at an angle of 30 °) and plate No. 20 (aft plate of the tank "Tiger" No. 2), which, in comparison with plates No. 18 and 19, contained relatively less carbon and chromium, but more nickel, had after 3 4st and XNUMXth hits of the crack.
          Plate No. 3 (the upper frontal part of the tank "Panther" No. 1), identical in chemical composition with plates No. 15, 16 and 17, split at the first hit from a 76-mm cannon.
          Plates # 18 and 19 contained nickel and with a hardness of 3,6–3,7 [in Soviet reports, the indentation diameter is used to indicate hardness. Ball diameter 10 mm, load 3000 kg approx. author] had a fine-crystalline fracture, all other plates without nickel and with nickel with a hardness of 3,5–3,6 had a fibrous fracture with a crystalline rash along the entire section. On the back side, slabs Nos. 15 and 16 had conditioned spalls.
          ...
          Tests of slabs with a thickness of 100 mm did not give any results. the first slab cracked after the second hit, and the second slab gave many cracks after the first

          Simply put, subject to the production technology, the quality of German armor was quite high. But the Germans, especially at the end of the war, could not brag about the observance of technology.
        2. +2
          17 October 2021 19: 17
          WARSPOT.RU
          "The skin of a bat German cat"
        3. 0
          6 January 2022 01: 01
          look carefully at the 2nd photo - the holes in the armor are broken, not punched. I hope you know what the difference is.
          I have seen a lot of photos with cracks in the area hit by the Tigers and Panthers. and in different versions. And when pieces of armor are broken and cracks through which the insides are visible if they are not penetrated (and the crew are still corpses from fragments of armor), and cracks upon penetration. So first take an interest in the topic yourself and do not write nonsense.
    2. -9
      16 October 2021 08: 01
      An interesting point - in 1941 the Germans were inferior to us in terms of the quality of technology

      It is a myth. In 1941, the best tank was the top three, the T-34 was not even close.
      Then, in 1942, a four with a long barrel. Diesel wins everywhere, except for crew burns, this is another myth.
      And the word "quality", perhaps you had the word "characteristics".
      1. +8
        16 October 2021 09: 22
        Quote: bya965
        It is a myth. In 1941, the best tank was the top three, the T-34 was not even close.

        Do not engage in myth-making yourself. Firstly, the T-3 had much weaker armament, a 50-mm cannon with a barrel length of 42 caliber, it could penetrate T-34 armor only at close range and with a successful hit in weak spots. Secondly, it was also worse in mobility, 300 forces for a 22-ton tank is not very much, the T-34-76 had a 500-horsepower diesel engine with a tank mass of 28 tons. Moreover, a diesel engine has a much higher torque than a gasoline engine. Plus, the gasoline engine is more voracious, along the country road the T-3 has a cruising range of only 95 km, and the T-34 has 230 km. That is, the T-3 could not operate autonomously, it must be accompanied by a fuel tanker. The advantages of the T-3 are in the better visibility of the commander thanks to the commander, moreover, the commander was not distracted by loading the gun, as was the case with the T-34. Well, in general, the T-3 was already well mastered by the troops by 1941 and was free from "childhood illnesses", since it began to be produced in 1937, and the T-34 began to be produced only in 1940.
        1. +6
          16 October 2021 14: 08
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Firstly, the T-3 had much weaker armament, a 50-mm cannon with a barrel length of 42 caliber

          Actually, in 1941, the overwhelming part of the Pz-III was armed with a 37-mm TP, the famous "mallet"
          1. +2
            16 October 2021 14: 30
            Quote: svp67
            Actually, in 1941, the overwhelming part of the Pz-III was armed with a 37-mm TP, the famous "mallet"

            It seems that after the French campaign, the T-3 began to be armed with the 50 mm L42 cannon. And after the start of "Barbarossa", when the Germans were convinced that this gun was weak against the T-34, in 1942 they began to arm the T-3 with the 50-mm L60 cannon, which also had a larger cartridge case, and allowed more propellant charge to be crammed there. As a result, the initial velocity of the projectile increased from 685 to 835 m / s, which made it possible to confidently hit the T-34 in the sides, stern and turret at a distance of up to 500 m.
            1. +1
              16 October 2021 14: 38
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              It seems that after the French campaign, the T-3 began to be armed with the 50 mm L42 cannon. And after the start of "Barbarossa", when the Germans were convinced that this gun is weak against the T-34,

              Yes, but since modernization is a costly business, they were in no hurry to meet with our tanks and the base of the fleet was made up of tanks with 37-mm TP, which was quite enough to fight our numerous T-26, T-28, T- 35 and various BTs
          2. +4
            16 October 2021 19: 13
            Quote: svp67
            Actually, in 1941, the overwhelming part of the Pz-III was armed with a 37-mm TP, the famous "mallet"

            Exactly the opposite: in June 1941, "treshki" with a 50-mm cannon accounted for more than 3/4 of the total number of "treshkas".
          3. -2
            16 October 2021 20: 52
            Quote: svp67
            Actually, in 1941, the overwhelming part of the Pz-III was armed with a 37-mm TP, the famous "mallet"

            I'm afraid in this photo G with KvK 38 5 cm.Here is A with KvK 36 3.7 cm:
          4. Alf
            +5
            16 October 2021 21: 47
            Quote: svp67
            Actually, in 1941, the overwhelming part of the Pz-III was armed with a 37-mm TP, the famous "mallet"


            The numbers do not support this.
          5. +2
            16 October 2021 22: 02
            This "three-ruble note" has a 50mm gun.
            With 37mm, the gun's movable armor was different.
        2. -9
          16 October 2021 15: 33
          Do you even understand something in tanks,
          or not. I personally agree with everything that you wrote.
          You yourself read the brain and not to me. It was just that the Germans were advancing.
          Once again, the Germans just attacked.
          For this, the top three is the best.
          1. +6
            16 October 2021 15: 51
            Quote: bya965
            Do you even understand something in tanks,
            or not.

            Little bit. 27 years of army life was associated with them.
            Quote: bya965
            You can read it yourself and not me

            What did you want to say?
            Quote: bya965
            It was just that the Germans were advancing.
            Once again, the Germans just attacked.
            For this, the top three is the best.

            Yeah, and the rest of the tanks of the German Panzerwaffe, which were worse? No, they were created for waging such a war, not only that, and Czech tanks were excellent for conducting a "blitzkrieg".
            What's new is that the difference is that it was the Pz-IV that turned out to be more versatile, capable of fighting both in "blitzkrieg" and in total war ... "Workhorse"
            1. -14
              16 October 2021 17: 35
              Understood nothing. Since this is yours, I saw enough of an officer back in 1987, when I served in Kaluga. The part was cropped.

              The brain is the mind
              1. +3
                16 October 2021 17: 38
                Quote: bya965
                officers

                ???????
                Quote: bya965
                The brain is the mind

                It looks like you have it "dorsal"
                1. The comment was deleted.
              2. 0
                6 January 2022 02: 51
                Quote: bya965
                Understood nothing.

                I had to attend school and do my homework ...
                Quote: bya965
                Since this is yours, I saw enough of an officer back in 1987, when I served in Kaluga. The part was cropped.

                I sympathize, without brains, different things can be imagined ... And yes, in the 80s they served for 2 years, not a year.
                Quote: bya965
                The brain is the mind

                but is there a mind without a brain? justify the opposite statement.
          2. 0
            16 October 2021 16: 41
            Quote: bya965
            Once again, the Germans just attacked.
            For this, the top three is the best.

            The four was better than the three, even with its own cigarette butt. The armor penetration of the 75mm / L24 projectile was roughly similar to that of the 50mm / L42, but the T-4's HE shell was three times heavier, thus carrying three times more explosives and three times more metal for shrapnel. The armor protection, mobility, visibility and comfort of the crew of the T-3 and T-4 were similar, only the T-4 had a slightly wider turret ring, and this allowed the installation of a long-barreled 75-mm cannon.
            1. 0
              16 October 2021 17: 51
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              only the T-4 has a slightly wider turret ring

              And nevertheless, a Pz-III tank with a long-barreled 75-mm tank gun was being developed for itself, yes, that there, using a turret from a Pz-IV,

              And they were stopped not by the "width of the turret shoulder", but by the weakness of the undercarriage and the sharply increased specific pressure on the ground. There was a proposal to completely redo the chassis, but they considered it too expensive a pleasure ...
              1. The comment was deleted.
            2. -9
              16 October 2021 18: 42
              Better four, but much more expensive. The war was total.
              1. 0
                16 October 2021 20: 13
                Quote: bya965
                Better four, but much more expensive. The war was total.

                You seem to be a scientist, as you write about yourself, and it seems that you are not a humanist. "An order of magnitude more expensive" is 10 times more expensive. Even the Tiger was not much more expensive than the T-3.
                1. 0
                  17 October 2021 06: 24
                  Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                  You seem to be a scientist

                  A scientist who does not know what it is to exceed by an order of magnitude .... ?????? Forgive me, but what kind of scientist is this ... Ignorant who does not know the school course of mathematics
              2. Alf
                +3
                16 October 2021 21: 57
                Quote: bya965
                Better four, but much more expensive.


                10 thousand RM is not an order of magnitude.
        3. 0
          16 October 2021 18: 03
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Firstly, the T-3 had much weaker armament, a 50-mm cannon with a barrel length of 42 caliber, it could penetrate T-34 armor only at close range and with a successful hit in weak spots.

          This was completely offset by the lack of armor-piercing shells in the T-34 in the first year of the war. smile
          And most importantly, tanks do not fight with tanks. The main enemy of the tanks was the PTO. And there against the "three" there was a 45-mm anti-tank gun with its armor penetration of 40 mm from 150-200 m (projectiles released until November 1941). And against the T-34 - PaK.38 with its 45-mm sheet along the normal showed a through-penetration limit of 1500 m, at an angle of 30 degrees to the normal of 1300 m.
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Secondly, it was also worse in mobility, 300 forces for a 22-ton tank is not very much, the T-34-76 had a 500-horsepower diesel engine with a tank mass of 28 tons. Moreover, a diesel engine has a much higher torque than a gasoline engine.

          As far as I understand, you can ignore the gasket between the engine and the propeller?
          The T-34 gearbox and clutches are 10-12 km / h in the field, a stop when changing gears and the danger of turning off the engine when changing gears. Moreover, this was not written by some revisionists, but by the specialists of the test site in Kubinka in 1942.
          By the way, the motor of the serial "three", when measured according to our method, produced 323 hp. But the serial B-2 - from 465 to 480 hp.
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Plus, the gasoline engine is more voracious, along the country road the T-3 has a cruising range of only 95 km, and the T-34 has 230 km.

          Serial T-34s produced in the spring of 1941 were tested with a cruising range of 165-180 km. By fuel.
          But the B-2 still had an oil range ...
          1. 0
            16 October 2021 20: 18
            Quote: Alexey RA
            This was completely offset by the lack of armor-piercing shells in the T-34 in the first year of the war.

            PF shells were also enough against the T-3 of the 1941 model.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            And against the T-34 - PaK.38 with its 45-mm sheet along the normal showed a through-penetration limit of 1500 m, at an angle of 30 degrees to the normal of 1300 m.

            In June 50, the Germans had 1941 1047-mm anti-tank guns, while there were about 16-17 thousand "mallets". The likelihood of meeting with the "mallet" rather than the PAK-38 is not difficult to calculate.
            1. +1
              17 October 2021 16: 52
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              PF shells were also enough against the T-3 of the 1941 model.

              Against 50-60 mm in the forehead and 30 mm in the sides? For the average Soviet crew mod. 1941 - no chance. 76-mm OFS with a steel case is more or less effective only against LT, and then only if a number of conditions are met. And with cast iron it is generally ineffective.
              Due to the current lack of the required number of chamber armor-piercing shells in artillery units, firing at German tanks from 76,2-mm divisional guns with shells of other types is widespread ...

              2. High-explosive steel grenade. It can be used when firing at light (in some cases, medium) tanks with their oblique movement along the sides, or in the turret ring, which leads to the destruction of the side plates, or their tearing off the mountings, as well as jamming of the tower and damage to the tower mechanisms, including optical sights and observation devices ... In a number of cases, the ability to rotate the turret was observed, and in the case of firing with howitzers, the turret of a light tank was disrupted from its mounts ...

              5. A high-explosive steel grenade is most effective in case of firing on the sides of the tank during its oblique movement ...

              6. A fragmentation grenade of cast iron can only be used when firing at a tank turret “for blinding” ...
              © From the report “Defeat of the armor of German tanks”. July 1942 NII-48.
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              In June 50, the Germans had 1941 1047-mm anti-tank guns, while there were about 16-17 thousand "mallets". The likelihood of meeting with the "mallet" rather than the PAK-38 is not difficult to calculate.

              Well, here's a "mallet" for you - from the same tests in 1942:
              37-mm anti-tank gun PaK.36, ordinary armor-piercing:
              The 45-mm sheet normal showed a rear strength limit of 700 meters - that is, starting from 700 meters the “mallet” can dig through the side and the T-34 turret.

              37-mm anti-tank gun PaK.36, sub-caliber:
              45-mm sheet along the normal showed the limit of the durability of 440 meters, the limit of penetration through the 350 meters, at an angle of 30 degrees from the normal 200 and 150 meters, respectively.
              © D. Shein
              1. 0
                17 October 2021 18: 24
                Are you completely alternative in intelligence? Do you really think that the "beaters" hit the T-34 from 500 m? Apparently, the Germans then, out of nothing to do, switched to the PAK-40 weighing one and a half tons. They had absolutely nothing to do!
                1. 0
                  6 January 2022 03: 06
                  Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                  Do you really think that the "beaters" hit the T-34 from 500 m?

                  yes, he even cannot read his text carefully and compare it with the fact that the T-34 has vertical armor plates only in the lower part of the sides, and even then they were punched only from a distance of 200 meters. And given that statistics say that hits in general on the side of the tank happened only in 30% of all hits ... In general, as in the Soviet joke about the Chukchi writer.
        4. mvg
          -2
          16 October 2021 22: 01
          he was also worse in mobility,

          The troika, which is "worse" in mobility, developed 70 km / h on the highway. Something like this.
          on a country road, the T-3 had a cruising range of only 95 km, and the T-34 had 230 km

          The T-34's "reserve" in '41 was determined not by the capacity of the fuel tank, but by the motor resource of 200-250 km ... the same thing, something like that. And rarely did the stars rise so that this miracle tank covered these 250 km.
          the T-3 had much weaker armament, a 50-mm cannon with a barrel length of 42 caliber, it could penetrate T-34 armor only at close range and with a successful hit in weak points

          50 mm KwK-39 from 42 years old, length 60 calibers, penetrated the T-34 at all combat distances in any position. The armor of the "forehead" of the T-3 is 50 + 20 mm, which is higher than that of the T-34, while the Soviet armor was inferior by another 15% to the Krupp armor.
          PS: Plus, they rightly said, such "nishtyaks" as the commander's cupola and radio. Plus, leaving the tank is much easier.
          1. +3
            16 October 2021 22: 34
            Quote: mvg
            The troika, which is "worse" in mobility, developed 70 km / h on the highway. Something like this

            He developed such a speed with the 10-speed Variorex box, but this box proved to be unreliable, plus the chassis was destroyed during such a ride. Therefore, from October 1940, 6-speed Maybach gearboxes began to be installed on tanks.
            Quote: mvg
            The T-34's "reserve" in '41 was determined not by the capacity of the fuel tank, but by the motor resource of 200-250 km ... the same thing, something like that. And rarely did the stars rise so that this miracle tank passed these 250 km

            wassat ... Oh really? We divide 250 km by 15 km / h, we get 17 hours. You are already lying, but do not lie. The resource of the V-2 was at least 50 engine hours, and this is already 750 km of travel.
            1. 0
              16 December 2021 10: 18
              The resource of the V-2 was at least 50 operating hours, which is already 750 km of travel.

              With proper use, naturally. B-2 ate oil as if not to himself, and the speed had to be monitored because the pressure in the chamber at B-2 was high.

              But before the engine itself fails, either the gearbox or the clutch will screw up. Burning the friction clutches on the T-34 is the easiest thing, and after that the tank won't go too far.
          2. 0
            6 January 2022 03: 15
            Quote: mvg
            50 mm KwK-39 from 42 years old, length 60 calibers, penetrated the T-34 at all combat distances in any position. The armor of the "forehead" of the T-3 is 50 + 20 mm, which is higher than that of the T-34, while the Soviet armor was inferior by another 15% to the Krupp armor.

            1. the conversation was about 41, not 42 years.
            2. How many T-3s with the L60 cannon were launched by the summer of 42? and by winter?
            3. How many T-42s with 3 + 50 armor were produced by the end of 20?
            4 mm at an angle for the T-45 was not inferior to the 34 mm vertical for the T-50.
            Learn to count first ...
      2. +4
        16 October 2021 14: 06
        Quote: bya965
        In 1941, the best tank was three,

        No, as you rightly said
        Quote: bya965
        It is a myth

        In terms of the totality of its qualities, the Pz-III was not the best panzerwaffe tank, as a result of which it was abandoned in favor of the Pz-IV.
        1. -3
          16 October 2021 15: 27
          In terms of the totality of its qualities, the Pz-III was not the best panzerwaffe tank, as a result of which it was abandoned in favor of the Pz-IV.

          Just stupidly the caliber, I did not fit into the three of 75 mm, but in the four, yes.
          1. 0
            16 October 2021 15: 55
            Quote: bya965
            Just stupidly the caliber, I did not fit into the three of 75 mm, but in the four, yes.

            ???????? Yes "butt" and it became normal


            But here's a more powerful weapon, yes, for it the BSh Pz-III was rather weak, I had to convert it into a self-propelled gun, and which tank turned out to be better in the dispute between Pz-III and Pz-IV?
            1. -9
              16 October 2021 17: 40
              He either has a brain or not. And where does the cigarette butt.
              How many Russians did he kill? The cigarette butt itself.
              Turn on the brain
              1. +3
                16 October 2021 18: 07
                Quote: bya965
                He either has a brain or not.

                You know, after communicating with people like you, you begin to understand that God did not give it to someone
                Quote: bya965
                And where does the cigarette butt.

                If you are talking about a German short-barreled 75-mm gun, then I showed you that it was installed on the serial Pz-III, so moreover, in order to increase the firepower and unify with the Pz-IV, there was a project to install a tower on the BSh Pz-III " four "with a long-barreled 75-mm TP.

                But then the chassis would have to be altered, and this was already recognized in those conditions as inexpedient.
                1. -2
                  16 October 2021 18: 40
                  God did not give it

                  I don’t believe in God, I was brought up by the Soviet regime. Atheist.
                  And why did not the troika go with the same turret, as did the T34 with the commander's and the fifth crew member.
                  Maybe there were no such machines. And the troika just flew off the shoulder straps.
                  And the size did not allow to make the shoulder straps wider.

                  You seem like a smart person. Read and find.
                  1. 0
                    16 October 2021 19: 25
                    Quote: bya965
                    I don't believe in God

                    The main thing is that he believes in you
                    Quote: bya965
                    And the size did not allow to make the shoulder straps wider.

                    Once again ... slowly ... read it.
                    A tower with a long-barreled gun was installed, BUT ... because of the sharply increased specific pressure on the ground, the "troika" lost its speed and maneuverability. The alteration of the chassis, at that time, was already considered inappropriate ... especially since the "troika" also had transmission defects. It was decided to design a new tank.
                    1. -2
                      16 October 2021 19: 45
                      The main thing is that he believes in you

                      As a scientist, I don’t believe.
                      A turret with a long-barreled cannon was installed,

                      and further recoil and shoulder straps did not allow + transmission. It's simple, you don't need to multiply entities. For example, the T28 is a very good tank. But there are a lot of nuances and the main thing is how to apply it according to the charter. And the Charter is written in blood. And the Charter always lags behind life. Unfortunately.

                      Believe in God, believe. This is your personal. I do not mind.
                      I personally believe in my people, in science, that we can fly to the stars. It is unlikely to go to another galaxy. But there is faith.
                      1. 0
                        16 October 2021 19: 55
                        Quote: bya965
                        and further recoil and shoulder straps did not allow + transmission.

                        In April 1942, a new turret was designed for the Panzerbefehlswagen III Ausf.K. In shape and size, it was very similar to the "four" tower, moreover, the shoulder strap was borrowed from the Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.E... From December to February 1943, 50 Pz.Bfw.III Ausf.Ks were built with these turrets and 50mm guns. This shows that, if desired, the Germans could easily grow the Pz.Kpfw.III to a single tank with a 75-mm gun, and talk about the impossibility of increasing the diameter of the shoulder strap is groundless. Another thing is that the Pz.Kpfw.IV was much better suited for this role, and its chassis did not have to be altered.
                        Quote: bya965
                        For example, the T28 is a very good tank. But there are a lot of nuances and the main thing is how to apply it according to the charter. And the Charter is written in blood. And the Charter always lags behind life. Unfortunately.

                        Now I don't understand how the T-28 "wrote the Charter in blood with a bunch of nuances" ... Explain
                        Quote: bya965
                        But there is faith.

                        It's strange to hear this from a non-believer ...
            2. +1
              16 October 2021 21: 12
              Quote: svp67
              Yes "butt" and it became normal

              trolley Ausf.N with "hemp" KvK 38 7.5 cm / 24 cal.

        2. +1
          16 October 2021 19: 16
          Quote: svp67
          In terms of the totality of its qualities, the Pz-III was not the best panzerwaffe tank, as a result of which it was abandoned in favor of the Pz-IV.

          This was already at the end of 1942 - when the "three-ruble note" had exhausted its modernization potential, and a 7,5-cm "lang" was added to the "four". And at the end of 1941 - mid-1942, the "Treshka" with a 5-cm "lang" was really the best.
          1. +2
            16 October 2021 19: 27
            Quote: Alexey RA
            And at the end of 1941 - mid-1942, the "Treshka" with a 5-cm "lang" was really the best.

            How? In terms of the power of the gun, it was inferior to the "four", as well as in terms of reliability, and even in terms of modernization potential, it almost did not have it, again, unlike the "four".
            In April, one Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.D was rearmed with the newest 50mm Kw.K.39 L / 60 cannon, more powerful than the Kw.K.38 L / 42 mounted on the Pz.Kpfw.III, but in as a result, they abandoned this in favor of the 7,5 cm Kw.K. 40 L / 43
            1. +2
              16 October 2021 19: 56
              Quote: svp67
              How? The power of the gun was inferior to the "four"

              Armor penetration. The summer of 1942 was a constant clash between the Panzerwaffe and large units of the Red Army armored forces. And the Germans did not manage to close the PTP.
              And with armor penetration and ballistics at the "butt" was all bad.
              The era of "three" ended after the "four" got a universal 7,5-cm "lang", which could both in armor penetration and in the OFS.
              1. -1
                16 October 2021 20: 10
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Armor penetration. The summer of 1942 was a constant clash between the Panzerwaffe and large units of the Red Army armored forces. And the Germans did not manage to close the PTP.
                And with armor penetration and ballistics at the "butt" was all bad.

                Armor penetration ... Gr. 38 HL is a cumulative German projectile of the German KwK 37 L / 24 tank gun, "cigarette butt" ... Yes, with low ballistics, but with excellent armor penetration, at a distance of up to 1000 meters.
                1. +2
                  17 October 2021 16: 43
                  Quote: svp67
                  Armor penetration ... Gr. 38 HL is a cumulative German projectile of the German KwK 37 L / 24 tank gun, "butt" ...Yes with low ballistics

                  The range of a direct shot at the "cigarette butt" is a couple of hundred meters. Coming close to such a distance with the T-34 in 1942 is playing Russian roulette. So the "godfather" of the 7,5 cm KwK 37 is more last chance projectilelike godfather in the BC howitzers.

                  "Kuma" for a short-barreled gun is good when it is an easily camouflaged regiment with a low silhouette, such as OB-25.
                  1. -1
                    17 October 2021 17: 06
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    The range of a direct shot at the "cigarette butt" is a couple of hundred meters.

                    ??????? So what? Does the artillery gun no longer shoot?
                    Actually, you forget why these guns were installed on the Pz-IV. The "fours" were supposed to provide the movement of the "troikas" with their fire, destroying, first of all, anti-tank guns. And since they were moving in the second line, they had to shoot at a distance much more than a couple of hundred meters. That is, the crew was trained to shoot at a distance exceeding the range of a direct shot.
                    1. +1
                      17 October 2021 17: 48
                      Quote: svp67
                      ??????? So what? Does the artillery gun no longer shoot?

                      Shoot and hit are two different things. ©
                      Quote: svp67
                      Actually, you forget why these guns were installed on the Pz-IV. The "fours" were supposed to provide the movement of the "troikas" with their fire, destroying, first of all, anti-tank guns. And since they were moving in the second line, they had to shoot at a distance much more than a couple of hundred meters.

                      Right. But the PTO, unlike the tank, does not move. And to hit it from a great distance is easier - you can even aim.
                      And the tank is a moving target. Which, moreover, needs to be hit with the first two or three shots. What is beyond the direct fire range is an extremely non-trivial task.
                      1. -1
                        17 October 2021 17: 52
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        And the tank is a moving target. Which, moreover, needs to be hit with the first two or three shots. What is beyond the direct fire range is an extremely non-trivial task.

                        And which has to be solved ... using the knowledge of VINT - VINC, VIRt - VIRts wink
        3. 0
          6 January 2022 03: 28
          Quote: svp67
          In terms of the totality of its qualities, the Pz-III was not the best panzerwaffe tank, as a result of which it was abandoned in favor of the Pz-IV.

          strange, but Rommel thought completely differently ...
          The Germans abandoned the T-3 due to the fact that they faced the best anti-tank equipment of that time, with the Soviet one, and it turned out that even 70 mm of armor in the forehead was sorely lacking, and the chassis copes with them with difficulty and there is not enough engine power. It was for this reason that the T3 was abandoned as the main tank, due to reaching the limit of the possibility of modernization.
  3. +7
    16 October 2021 06: 34
    Where does the question come from - does the modern Russian Federation need a lot of tanks? Or is it less, but better, and with the rest of the funds to train motorized riflemen, anti-aircraft gunners, electronic warfare, UAVs?

    Usually people who know how to run the state properly already work as taxi drivers or hairdressers ...
    (François Mitterrand, President of the French Republic)
    1. -14
      16 October 2021 06: 54
      Now we need to make unmanned tanks, the crew controls the tank from afar, sitting in cover. Due to the fact that the fighting compartment of the tank disappears, the dimensions of the tank can be reduced, and while maintaining the mass of 50 tons, the resulting weight reserve can be used to improve protection and weapons. Armata is already a tank with an outdated concept, since the crew sits inside it.
      1. +8
        16 October 2021 07: 00
        the crew controls the tank from afar, sitting in cover.

        This requires only one "malach" - to learn how to control the tank with the power of thought, because all other communication channels, regardless of the physical principles of the organization, have been tested for interference up to the loss of communication.
        "It is theoretically possible to transfer a person by phone, but the difficulties that arise at this stage are insurmountable."
        (T.A. Edison)
        1. -24
          16 October 2021 07: 13
          It is not a problem at all to create interference-free radio communication.
          1. +9
            16 October 2021 07: 21
            It is not a problem at all to create interference-free radio communication.

            Since 1896, interference-free radio communication has been created and created, but for some reason they cannot create it. Probably because "VO" users do not use the advice of users. drinks
            1. -16
              16 October 2021 07: 36
              Quote: Nafanya from the couch
              Since 1896, interference-free radio communication has been created and created, but for some reason they cannot create it. Probably because "VO" users do not use the advice of users.

              In fact, if it were so easy to drown out the enemy's radio communications, then for a long time and constantly they would have left the enemy without radio communications. But they do not do this, everywhere opponents successfully use radio communications. Apparently, an experienced sofa expert from "VO" did not suggest such advice to them laughing
              1. +8
                16 October 2021 07: 40
                Apparently, an experienced sofa expert from "VO" did not suggest such advice to them

                As in 1974 I graduated from the Institute of Communications with a degree in radio communication and radio broadcasting, so since then I have not got up from the couch. Especially in the field of creating radio and RRL communication networks.
                1. -17
                  16 October 2021 07: 46
                  Quote: Nafanya from the couch
                  As in 1974 I graduated from the Institute of Communications with a degree in radio communication and radio broadcasting, so since then I have not got up from the couch. Especially in the field of creating radio and RRL communication networks.

                  laughing ... Hey, good morning! In fact, almost half a century has passed, and what you taught there radio communication on lamps is already fierce antiquity.
                  1. +13
                    16 October 2021 07: 49
                    Many times he pledged not to enter into discussions with the DDD contingent. But here I got it again. Himself to blame.
                  2. AUL
                    +9
                    16 October 2021 12: 22
                    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                    Hey, good morning! In fact, almost half a century has passed, and what you taught there radio communication on lamps is already fierce antiquity.

                    And the multiplication table was invented even earlier. It's time to throw it in the trash. Make way for the young and zealous! laughing wassat
                    1. -14
                      16 October 2021 12: 59
                      Quote from AUL
                      And the multiplication table was invented even earlier. It's time to throw it in the trash. Make way for the young and zealous!

                      Are you still using the multiplication table? I used it in primary school laughing .
                      1. 0
                        6 January 2022 03: 32
                        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                        Are you still using the multiplication table? I used it in primary school

                        I wonder how many hours you count 25x12 ... 25 + 25 + 25 + ...
              2. 0
                16 October 2021 20: 18
                Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                In fact, if it were so easy to drown out the enemy's radio communications, then for a long time and constantly they would have left the enemy without radio communications. But they do not do this, everywhere opponents are successfully using radio communications.

                Yes, the fact of the matter is that by drowning the enemy's radio communication, you simultaneously jam it at your own place. So that you had to decide or "annoy" the enemy, and at the same time yourself, or not to do it ...
                1. Alf
                  +1
                  16 October 2021 22: 05
                  Quote: svp67
                  Yes, the fact of the matter is that by drowning the enemy's radio communication, you simultaneously jam it at your own place.

                  Far from being a fact. Otherwise, electronic warfare means would not have appeared at all.
                  1. 0
                    17 October 2021 06: 19
                    Quote: Alf
                    Far from being a fact. Otherwise, electronic warfare means would not have appeared at all.

                    Alas, a fact. It's just that modern digital radio communication is somewhat different than it was before and its ability to overcome interference is much higher
        2. 0
          16 October 2021 07: 21
          or interception
          1. +1
            16 October 2021 08: 41
            AI is everything. A battlefield for unmanned AI killing machines. And very soon it will begin to be saturated with them. - "the first swallows" are already there.
    2. +2
      16 October 2021 10: 08
      Usually people who know how to run the state properly already work as taxi drivers or hairdressers ...
      (François Mitterrand, President of the French Republic)

      That's right, but in this case people express their thoughts, which is not forbidden. In general, in order to talk about how many and what tanks are needed, one should understand what the future war will be and what significance the tanks will have in battle: will it be "new battles of Kursk" or deep raids and envelopes, or maybe an exchange of missile strikes and then peace talks? "Generals are preparing for past wars" - it is known.
  4. +6
    16 October 2021 06: 49
    Factology suffers
    And to think competently, it was worth getting rid of theoretical illusions

    The author did not mention the 11th tank brigade, the 201st airborne brigade, the NKVD regiment.
    Thought and the General Staff

    On January 11, 1945 in 3 TA 925 tanks and self-propelled guns (3 corps), in the 4th TA 750 tanks and self-propelled guns (2 corps).
    Other wars have shown

    This was shown by the First World War.
    Does the modern Russian Federation need a lot of tanks?

    Substitution of logical concepts - without the organization of air defense, reconnaissance, fire destruction, it will not be possible to fight successfully, regardless of the number of tanks.
  5. +5
    16 October 2021 07: 28
    Khatskilevich's corps (the strongest mechanized corps of the ZOVO) drove into the offensive without air defense
    Can you explain how to provide air defense support in 1941 to the advancing tank units? Attach a cart with a quad machine-gun mount to the T-34?
    1. +2
      16 October 2021 07: 52
      Quote: Evgeny Fedorov
      Can you explain how to provide air defense support in 1941 to the advancing tank units? Attach a cart with a quad machine-gun mount to the T-34?

      For this, we must separately "thank" Tukhach, who raved about universal divisional guns, and cut all attempts to create anti-aircraft large-caliber machine guns and anti-aircraft machine guns. The recreation center was created back in 1932, but the order for alteration for tape power was given only in 1938, after the displacement of Tukhach, and the DShK began to be mass-produced only in 1940. Orders for the creation of 25- and 37-mm anti-aircraft machine guns were also issued only after the displacement of Tukhach, the 37-mm anti-aircraft gun began to be mass-produced in 1940, and the 25-mm machine gun was generally put into production only in 1941.
      1. +2
        16 October 2021 19: 46
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        For this, we must separately "thank" Tukhach, who raved about universal divisional guns

        At the beginning of the 30s, when the TK was issued for the universal division, Tukhachevsky was right. For the main means of air defense of the Red Army was a field three-inch machine on Ivanov's machine. And it was hard to believe in the ability of Plant No. 8 to give the army a massive SZA on the basis of the German project - the industry steadily filled up all German developments in the series.
        So to replace a three-inch as an army air defense, the universal was quite suitable.
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        and chopped down all attempts to create anti-aircraft heavy machine guns and anti-aircraft guns.

        Yes, yes, yes ... it is very convenient to blame the deceased on the weakness of the domestic design bureaus and industry, which from 1928 to 1938 successively overwhelmed the production of all 20-mm and 37-mm MZA.
        Kondakov has been working on the MZA since 1932. Shpitalny - since 1935 - exactly at the time of Tukhachevsky. But they did not succeed in satisfying the requirements of the military MZA only by 1938.
        By the way, decisions on the MLA in the USSR were made at the level of the Council of Labor and Defense (chaired by Comrade Molotov) - and Tukhachevsky was out of business at this level.
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        Orders for the creation of 25- and 37-mm anti-aircraft guns were also issued only after the displacement of Tukhach,

        Seriously?
        The Labor and Defense Council decides:
        1. To abandon the requirement to create a universal divisional cannon and recognize the need to have two guns in the division's armament: a) a 76-mm ground cannon with a range of 14-15 km, adapted for horse traction on six horses and for mechanical traction at a speed of up to 30 km; b) 37 ‑ mm ‑45 ‑ mm automatic anti-aircraft gun.
        (...)
        5. Instruct com. Tukhachevsky, Pavlunovsky and Efimov to develop requirements for a small-caliber automatic anti-aircraft divisional gun and determine the manufacturing plants and the timing of the production of prototypes. In particular, provide for the task of creating a small-caliber cannon with an initial speed of 1500 m / s. The proposals of the commission should be heard at the next meeting of the STO with the call of the designers (comrades Shpitalny, Sidorenko, Makhanov).
        © Resolution of the STO USSR No. С-70ss "On the implementation of the artillery weapons system." June 19, 1935
        And I do not remember this about the 8-mm assault rifle 37-K mod. 11 - the same 1928-mm assault rifle that is regularly found in ship projects planned for construction in the First Five-Year Plan.

        By the way, the Red Army issued a requirement for the creation of a large-caliber machine gun with a caliber of more than 12,7 mm already in 1928 and received it in 1944.
        1. -2
          16 October 2021 22: 54
          Quote: Alexey RA
          At the beginning of the 30s, when the TK was issued for the universal division, Tukhachevsky was right. For the main means of air defense of the Red Army was a field three-inch machine on Ivanov's machine. And it was hard to believe in the ability of Plant No. 8 to give the army a massive SZA on the basis of the German project - the industry steadily filled up all German developments in the series.
          So the station wagon was quite suitable for replacing the three-inch air defense system as an army air defense.

          You are writing nonsense. How can a divisional gun with weak ballistics, a vertical guidance angle of 75 °, no circular rotation, no anti-aircraft sight, no prepared crew, can conduct at least some anti-aircraft fire with an efficiency greater than zero? And in fact, since 1933, the 76-mm anti-aircraft gun 3-K, a copy of the German 75-mm anti-aircraft gun, has been mass-produced. And the F-22 universal cannon, for your information, was put into service in 1936. That is, even with the NORMAL anti-aircraft gun mastered in the series, Tukhachevsky continued to rave about universal divisional guns.
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Yes, yes, yes ... it is very convenient to blame the deceased on the weakness of the domestic design bureaus and industry, which from 1928 to 1938 successively overwhelmed the production of all 20-mm and 37-mm MZA.
          Kondakov has been working on the MZA since 1932. Shpitalny - since 1935 - exactly at the time of Tukhachevsky. But they did not succeed in satisfying the requirements of the military MZA only by 1938.
          By the way, decisions on the MLA in the USSR were made at the level of the Council of Labor and Defense (chaired by Comrade Molotov) - and Tukhachevsky was out of business at this level.

          If it were not for Tukhach with his nonsense, then the production of MZA would have been given the highest priority, and, accordingly, would have been financed. And under Tukhach, all these developments were carried out on the ditch, and were also financed in no way. And the normal 37-mm machine gun was received in 1939, two years after the displacement of Tukhach. Coincidence? I do not believe! And how do you explain to me why you slowed down the release of DC so much? It was mastered in a series in 1932, but these machine guns were produced on a scanty scale, several dozen pieces a year, in 1935, the production of DK was stopped altogether. And in 1938, Shpagin was given the task to remake the recreation center for tape feeding. Is it a coincidence too? I do not believe! But the KKP was very effective against the aircraft of that time, and only either a saboteur, or could leave the army without anti-aircraft cover in the form of the KKP.
          1. 0
            17 October 2021 17: 15
            Quote: Kot_Kuzya
            You are writing nonsense. How can a divisional gun with weak ballistics, a vertical guidance angle of 75 °, no circular rotation, no anti-aircraft sight, no prepared crew, can conduct at least some anti-aircraft fire with an efficiency greater than zero?

            And you will compare it with the main means of air defense of the Red Army - 76-mm arr. 02/30 on the machine of Ivanov.

            It was this gun that the divisional station wagon was supposed to replace.
            Quote: Kot_Kuzya
            And in fact, since 1933, the 76-mm anti-aircraft gun 3-K, a copy of the German 75-mm anti-aircraft gun, has been mass-produced.

            Serially produced ... laughing
            In total, 1933 guns were handed over in 175. In 1934, the guns did not surrender. In 1935, 374 guns were delivered.

            Are we going to build an army air defense system based on a cannon with such a release? Which is also needed for conventional air defense?
            Quote: Kot_Kuzya
            And the normal 37-mm machine gun was received in 1939, two years after the displacement of Tukhach. Coincidence? I do not believe!

            We got a normal machine gun when they stopped walking along the path unique and unparalleled in the world and turned to the experience of the leading manufacturer of MZA. And also when the industry was finally able to mass-produce working automation.
            Quote: Kot_Kuzya
            And the normal 37-mm machine gun was received in 1939, two years after the displacement of Tukhach. Coincidence? I do not believe!

            Was Tukhachevsky to blame in the USA too? The most powerful American industry with trained personnel gave birth to a 28-mm submachine gun for the same 10 years - and gave birth to it in 1940, in order to abandon it in a year in favor of the same "Swede".

            Or maybe Tukhachevsky is to blame for the fact that Plant No. 8 for 4 years was unable to transfer to itself the production of the 37-mm version of the Vickers assault rifle (aka 11-K), which was previously manufactured at the NEZ? I'm not talking about the failure with the 2-K and 4-K guns at the same plant.
            1. -1
              17 October 2021 18: 31
              Quote: Alexey RA
              And you will compare it with the main means of air defense of the Red Army - 76-mm arr. 02/30 on the machine of Ivanov.

              Or maybe you can compare it with slingshots and spitting? You are quite cuckoo.
              Quote: Alexey RA
              It was this gun that the divisional station wagon was supposed to replace.

              The modern division was supposed to replace the 1902 three-inch model.
              Quote: Alexey RA

              Are we going to build an army air defense system based on a cannon with such a release? Which is also needed for conventional air defense?

              In 1935, 375 anti-aircraft guns were produced. Do you think this is not enough? Well sorry! You are really Tukhach, for whom 100 thousand tankettes were needed! Are you normal at all?
              1. 0
                18 October 2021 12: 04
                Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                Or maybe you can compare it with slingshots and spitting? You are quite cuckoo.

                Once again: this is the main anti-aircraft gun of the military air defense of the Red Army at the time of the decision on the universal divisional gun.
                Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                In 1935, 375 anti-aircraft guns were produced. Do you think this is not enough?

                This is for the whole country, from Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky to Leningrad. To cover all cities, factories, airfields, naval bases and formations of the Red Army.
          2. -1
            17 October 2021 17: 15
            Quote: Kot_Kuzya
            And how do you explain to me why you slowed down the release of DC so much? It was mastered in a series in 1932, but these machine guns were produced on a meager scale, several dozen pieces a year, in 1935, the production of DK was stopped altogether.

            Right. But it was not Tukhachevsky who was guilty of this, but Shpitalny, who had promised the army soldiers the infantry KKP ShVAK-12,7 under the tape. And against the background of such a competitor, Degtyarev, in order to preserve his machine gun, finally decided to remake it for tape power.
            Moreover, the army team liked the product of the Shpitalny in caliber 12,7.
            Based on the reduced armor penetration and anti-aircraft fire range of 20 mm ShVAK as compared to 12,7 mm, it is necessary to use 12,7 mm ShVAK machine guns as a means of air defense and anti-aircraft missile regiments.

            And if Shpitalny could normally "land" the ShVAK-12,7, then the DShK might not have appeared at all.

            By the way, is Tukhachevsky to blame for the scanty issue of the DShK in the war? wink Well, you can go crazy - much more complex UB was released an order of magnitude more than infantry DShK.
            1. 0
              17 October 2021 18: 34
              Quote: Alexey RA
              By the way, is Tukhachevsky to blame for the scanty issue of the DShK in the war? Well, you can go crazy - much more complex UB was released an order of magnitude more than infantry DShK.

              Tukhach's followers could well harm. No wonder then Novikov was imprisoned. It is a pity that they didn’t let a bullet in his head. Stalin was still too kind.
              1. 0
                6 January 2022 04: 53
                Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                Tukhach's followers could well harm. No wonder then Novikov was imprisoned. It is a pity that they didn’t let a bullet in his head. Stalin was still too kind.

                this is a clinic ... It is useless to explain anything here. Personally, I shut up because the beads are not enough.
      2. 0
        6 January 2022 04: 44
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        For this, we must separately "thank" Tukhach, who raved about universal divisional guns, and cut all attempts to create anti-aircraft large-caliber machine guns and anti-aircraft machine guns.

        another storyteller ...
        1. about which guns to develop was made by the GAU.
        2. GAU was not subordinate to Tukhachevsky.
        3. The idea with universal three-inches is the idea of ​​the GAU, which was even afraid to switch to new types of cartridges (a projectile combined with a sleeve is also called a unitary cartridge) with a sleeve increased to 420-440 mm: "We had enough of such cartridges in civilian ones ...". How they obeyed Tukhachevsky is clearly shown by the history with the creation of a 57/40 cannon for light tanks and a 76,2 / 30 cannon with a 300 mm sleeve instead of 76,2 / 20 and a 192 mm long sleeve for medium tanks. the first demand was "announced" in 31, the second in February 32. And what is the result? So work on the 57 mm cannon was stopped already on the 32nd, but they began to develop again only at 38, and as a result, the 39th Grabin successfully abandoned them, tired of it. On the second, everything is more complicated. Yes, the developer of the cartridge P.I. Syachintov in '31 showed his new 76,2 / 20 PS-3 cannon, but with a new, longer sleeve, designed for installation on the promising T-35 tank. Well, in February of the next year, Tukhachevsky demanded to stop using howitzers on medium and heavy tanks, replacing them with cannons. For those who are in a tank, a cannon differs from a howitzer in ballistics and not everything that is called a cannon is such, in particular a mountain cannon of 1938, or regimental 43 are howitzers whose vertical guidance angles are limited. back to the topic: the first 76 mm tank gun was installed on the tank in 1939, and it was the L-11.
        4. Dektyarev could not create a ribbon feed for the recreation center for 7 years and, by the way, did not create it, that is why the recreation center became the DShK. And here Tukhachevsky is not even clear ...
        I won't write 5,6, 7 and 4, I'm tired, I have 44-XNUMX nights ...
    2. +4
      16 October 2021 07: 55
      Evgeny Fedorov, - equip the tank with anti-aircraft machine guns, create a self-propelled anti-aircraft gun based on the BT tank, put a light and rapid-fire anti-aircraft gun on stream .... there are many options, as you can see!
      1. +3
        16 October 2021 13: 04
        Are there the same machine guns and small-bore ZA?
        Will the chassis hold up?
        Was there a suitable MZA model on the stream in the USSR?
        No. There was no MZA, there was no gross production of DK or DShK.
        In which plant to do all this?
        1. 0
          18 October 2021 09: 17
          Are there the same machine guns and small-bore ZA?


          No, so set the task and create.
          Have you created aircraft cannons? And were there any large-caliber aircraft machine guns?
          And were there small-caliber anti-aircraft guns in the Navy?
          If you have problems with the creation - what prevented you from buying a production license from the bourgeoisie?
          Neutral Swiss have created excellent "Erlikons" - what prevented them from buying?
          The French had excellent 25mm anti-aircraft guns (even the German T-3 medium tank could penetrate the side) - what prevented them from buying a license?
          The chassis would be found - based on light tanks. It took the creation of an SU-76 - the chassis was found and riveted, God forbid.
          And so they met the war with quadruple "maxims" that can only scratch paint on "Junkers" and "Heinkels".
      2. +2
        16 October 2021 19: 52
        Quote: Thrifty
        Evgeny Fedorov, - to equip the tank with anti-aircraft machine guns

        They are not here. DShK costs almost as much as 45mm PTP and is produced in homeopathic quantities.
        Quote: Thrifty
        put on stream a light and rapid-fire anti-aircraft gun

        And they tried to do it. But comrade Taubin was entrusted, who as a result became a citizen of Taubin. And the Red Army remained with the 25-mm MZA 72-K.
        Quote: Thrifty
        create a self-propelled anti-aircraft gun based on the BT tank

        Uh-huh ... with a platform for the calculation of 4-6 people on the BT building. laughing For apart from 72-K, the Red Army has nothing.
        1. +1
          18 October 2021 12: 51
          45mm battalion gun cost about 14000 rubles?
          I read that in 1938 the DShK cost 13365 rubles, and the 12,7mm ShVAK cost 22460 rubles.
          Or is there other information about the prices of weapons at that time?
      3. Alf
        +2
        16 October 2021 22: 09
        Quote: Thrifty
        Evgeny Fedorov, - equip the tank with anti-aircraft machine guns, create a self-propelled anti-aircraft gun based on the BT tank, put a light and rapid-fire anti-aircraft gun on stream .... there are many options, as you can see!

        All in all ... No, the Bolsheviks, of course, are able to overcome obstacles, but they are not gods.
    3. 0
      16 December 2021 10: 31
      We take the BT-7, put on it an open tower with a twin DShK or ShVAK-T, voila
  6. NSV
    +5
    16 October 2021 07: 47
    Now it is clear that tanks are to be blamed for all Russia's troubles! Strange logic ...
  7. -16
    16 October 2021 08: 24
    The Nazis knocked out about 100 thousand Soviet tanks.
    1. +8
      16 October 2021 09: 14
      Aurel-I understand, information war, and all that, but why not a million at once ??? fool fool fool And, almost all-T34, and were knocked out in the first couple of years of the war ... lol
      1. +4
        16 October 2021 13: 17
        According to NII-48, in 1941-45 more than 90 thousand were lost. tanks (I don't remember more precisely), but these losses were replenished by production (about 120 thousand). Tanks T-34 were the leaders in terms of losses both in 1943 and in 1945 - what can you do, the most massive and most used.
        1. 0
          18 October 2021 09: 19
          indeed for 1941-45 more than 90 thousand were lost. tanks


          Were all the losses in combat? Or is it the total number of casualties with non-combatants?
          Some of the "lost" tanks later served in the Wehrmacht.
    2. +6
      16 October 2021 13: 01
      Was it knocked out or destroyed? To knock out and destroy are different concepts
      In the German Air Force, aircraft damage was expressed as a percentage, and aircraft with 80 to 100% damage were decommissioned. And if only 75% - it means "could restore" ... or then quietly disassemble it into parts.
      German tankers did not bother their catch with a percentage of damage. They had three categories of repairs - short-term, medium-term, long-term with sending to the factory. And the destroyed car is written off.
      Having sent the wrecked tank many times for mid-term repairs, after a couple of weeks it was transferred to the "long-term construction" category ... And it was quietly lost in the factory territory or was simply dismantled for spare parts and was quietly written off a few months after receiving combat damage.
      1. 0
        6 January 2022 05: 00
        Quote: hohol95
        Was it knocked out or destroyed? To knock out and destroy are different concepts
        In the German Air Force, aircraft damage was expressed as a percentage, and aircraft with 80 to 100% damage were decommissioned. And if only 75% - it means "could restore" ... or then quietly disassemble

        this nonsense is 75% refuted a week after the appearance. Even the General Air Force Quartermaster himself, from whose book these% are taken, spoke of other, 2,5 times lower prices ...
    3. Alf
      0
      16 October 2021 22: 12
      Quote: Aurel
      The Nazis knocked out about 100 thousand Soviet tanks.

      For the 41st. And for the 42nd 200 thousand, then on an increasing basis ... Well, yes, if you read all the tales of Rudel, Hartman, Carius, etc. and add up everything that they have filled and attributed, then you can count a million ...
      P.S. The jacket is imported-three, the tape recorder is imported-three ...
      1. -2
        16 October 2021 23: 11
        Quote: Alf
        For the 41st. And for the 42nd 200 thousand, then on the rise ...

        no, from 1941 to 1945 according to Krivosheev's figures - 96.5 thousand tanks and self-propelled guns. What does it have to do with it
        Quote: Alf
        tales of rudel, hartman, carius, etc.
        1. Alf
          0
          16 October 2021 23: 14
          Quote: Ashes of Klaas
          Quote: Alf
          For the 41st. And for the 42nd 200 thousand, then on the rise ...

          no, from 1941 to 1945 according to Krivosheev's figures - 96.5 thousand tanks and self-propelled guns. What does it have to do with it
          Quote: Alf
          tales of rudel, hartman, carius, etc.

          And I met the figure of 86,5 thousand. And about rudel and his comrades, so very often some "tovarischi", not bothering to check for veracity, cite such tales.
          1. 0
            16 December 2021 10: 43
            What's the problem with Rudel? 2500 sorties, 500 tanks, on average one tank for five sorties
            1. Alf
              0
              16 December 2021 20: 07
              Quote: Ol Willy
              What's the problem with Rudel? 2500 sorties, 500 tanks, on average one tank for five sorties

              On the FIELD tests of the IL-2, it turned out that the probability of hitting from the WING (more rigidly fixed) guns is 3 (THREE)%. And this is with the ammo on the barrel of 150 VYa-23 shells. When firing from the NS-37, due to the stronger recoil, the probability of hitting was reduced to ONE percent.
              On the Yu-87G rudel, there are two 37-mm cannons, with a 12-round ammunition gun per barrel, when mounted in a suspended container with a weaker fastening. Continue on hitting probability?
              1. 0
                17 December 2021 07: 45
                There is no need to continue, because comparing the accuracy of the Il-2 and Ju-87G is already a drug addiction. How about different scopes? Different controllability? Different training of pilots (Rudel is a unique case in the Luftwaffe, except for him almost no one had such statistics)?

                Also, RETURNING, yeah. The whole point of working on the Ju-87G was that the tank had to be hit with the first hit, because the recoil, ammunition and rate of fire did not give a chance to hit with the second or third shot. And this was quite possible if the enemy did not have significant air defense systems in place or fighter cover. Stuka has a stall speed of just over 100 km / h, so you can aim.

                I'm not even talking about the fact that the Ju-87G was not Rudel's main aircraft - it flew both regular Stukas and FW-190 assault versions.

                The Germans were apparently stupid, they put p / t guns on the Stuki and Henschel 129; the British are fools too, put guns on Hurricanes, Americans are generally idiots, put 75mm on Mitchells
                1. Alf
                  0
                  17 December 2021 17: 54
                  Quote: Ol Willy
                  put on Mitchells 75mm

                  For work on ships, and the ship is slightly larger than the tank.
                  Quote: Ol Willy
                  Englishmen are fools too, put cannons on Hurricanes,

                  The Hurricanes did not particularly hunt for tanks, more for trucks in columns and for guns.
                  Quote: Ol Willy
                  Henschel 129;

                  And how are you doing?
                  1. 0
                    18 December 2021 11: 34
                    Quote: Alf
                    The Hurricanes did not particularly hunt for tanks, more for trucks in columns and for guns.

                    That is why the nickname of the Mk IID model was "bottle opener" and the same bottle opener became the logo of the sixth squadron
                    Quote: Alf
                    And how are you doing?

                    Quite successful, but flying 129B is just disgusting

                    Yak-9T was also used against tanks.

                    Ivan Ivanovich Kozhemyako is one of those who happened to fight on the Yak-9T and test their anti-tank capabilities.

                    “There is a small provincial town of Gubin not far from Berlin, and under this Gubin, Ilam and I stormed a large German tank grouping. I was in a Yak-9T, and I fired at the tanks from this 37-mm cannon. On "Tigers", on "Panthers". Dived vertically to hit the upper armor (it is the weakest of the tank). Dived - short burst - jumped out.

                    I had about 30 armor-piercing rounds (I don’t remember exactly how many), so I shot them all at the tanks. Since I had never flown such a "Yak" before, I did not know some of the specifics of this model: how you give a queue, then immediately a full cabin of smoke. No instruments to be seen! I opened the flashlight, the smoke blew out immediately, then I saw the devices. So he stormed with an open lantern. "

                    Usually, the tactics of attacks on tanks was as follows: “I dive almost vertically from 800-900 meters, about 70 degrees, the lead is minimal - that’s time. Two - "Tiger" or "Panther" are not the kind of tanks that are difficult to hit. Hulks ".

                    The effectiveness of such attacks was determined “by eye”: “In half of the attacks I see that the tracks have buried themselves in the tank, and nothing else. No fire, no smoke. In half - the flame appeared immediately after the hit. But there were no exploding tanks. Only on fire. "
          2. 0
            16 December 2021 10: 46
            Also, what's the problem with Hartmann? 1400 sorties, 350 wins. Despite the fact that Hartmann was not engaged in escort and reconnaissance, pure hunting: he descended from a height, joined the tail, gave a line, went upstairs
            1. Alf
              -1
              16 December 2021 19: 59
              Quote: Ol Willy
              Also, what's the problem with Hartmann? 1400 sorties, 350 wins.

              On March 9, 44th, rudel announced 4 victories-2 IL-2, PE-2, Yak-9. In the log of the unit, this day is recorded by the storyteller ONE YAK-9.
              1. 0
                17 December 2021 07: 57
                Where does this come from? Hartmann has no victories at all between February 26, 1944 and April 23, 1944
                1. Alf
                  0
                  17 December 2021 17: 57
                  Quote: Ol Willy
                  Where does this come from? Hartmann has no victories at all between February 26, 1944 and April 23, 1944

                  Read the Great Slandered War.
                  1. 0
                    18 December 2021 11: 24
                    Why would I read someone who first comes up with an argument and then refutes it?
                    1. Alf
                      0
                      18 December 2021 18: 05
                      Quote: Ol Willy
                      Why would I read someone who first comes up with an argument and then refutes it?

                      Well, keep believing in fairy tales. They just stuffed something a little. We need not 519 tanks, but 819, not 352 shot down, but 600. The clever will understand the linden, and the rest must be trusted.
                      1. 0
                        20 December 2021 16: 06
                        I don't see any fairy tales. In the Luftwaffe, the emphasis was on individual aces pilots and their support. For each Hartmann there were a dozen pilots with one or two victories in their entire career.
                      2. Alf
                        0
                        20 December 2021 18: 04
                        Quote: Ol Willy
                        I don't see any fairy tales.


      2. +1
        6 January 2022 05: 01
        Quote: Alf
        P.S. The jacket is imported-three, the tape recorder is imported-three ...

        for aviation, it turns out from 5 to 10 jackets, for tanks, probably the same orders ...
        1. Alf
          0
          6 January 2022 17: 32
          Quote: 4-th Paradise
          Quote: Alf
          P.S. The jacket is imported-three, the tape recorder is imported-three ...

          for aviation, it turns out from 5 to 10 jackets, for tanks, probably the same orders ...

          Moreover, an interesting point is that the closer the end of the war was, the faster the personal accounts of the "superaces" increased ...
          1. 0
            7 January 2022 01: 40
            watch these videos, there are interesting facts, but in general there are a lot of videos on the channel ...

            и
            1. Alf
              0
              7 January 2022 11: 55
              Yes, this is no longer a secret. But only for those who look less zombie and have not forgotten how to count and think with their heads.
  8. +2
    16 October 2021 10: 33
    By the end of the war, we were superior to them in organization, but inferior in quality - and took Berlin.
    Filled with corpses and equipment. laughing As at the beginning of the war, and during it, the Germans barely had time to knock out Soviet tanks, at the beginning of the war, they released nonsense and then during the war and a lot and in vain once again. laughing Yeah ..... laughing
  9. 0
    16 October 2021 10: 38
    One of the strong memories of the period of service in the army (Sakhalin Island) is a huge field of tanks, dead, dismantled, immobilized ... And the tankers themselves were about 5-7 people for this entire horde of vehicles. Came to us (air defense) movies to watch on Saturdays.

    How and against whom could this iron fight?
    1. +2
      16 October 2021 12: 53
      And against whom can the aircraft located at the Davis-Monten US Air Force base fight?
      There are many of them ... And different ... more than 4400 pieces!
      And the expression "huge fields of tanks" - huge in relation to what?
      And in what years?
      "Gigantic masses" of equipment were taken out of the GDR ...
      And then they "disposed of" ...
  10. +6
    16 October 2021 11: 04
    The author needs to learn how to separate flies from cutlets. First, the Red Army had a problem with the organizational structure of the tank forces. the very idea of ​​the massive use of tanks was correct, but the execution was based on the experience of local battles of the civil war. This is what all the "theoreticians" are committing even now. The US in Iraq showed how a large concentration of tanks actually works. Secondly, the author is poorly aware of the operational characteristics of tanks of the Second World War and modern ones. For example, the Ukrainian Bulat can withstand up to three hits of anti-tank weapons, and the T-64 does not always have one. About the quality of WWII technology is generally nonsense. In 1941-1942 the Germans had quite high-quality equipment, making marches of 120 km a day. And the Red Army had raw T-34 and KV and reliable but badly worn BTs. The essence of the problem is in the unconditional need for tanks today and the more of them in the army the better, the key aspect in their competent use, well, they do not hammer nails with a crystal vase.
  11. +13
    16 October 2021 11: 17
    For tanks, they developed air defense systems, self-propelled guns, and light armored vehicles, and in general - everything necessary for a war with the whole world, taken together. Only the little things were not taken into account - a repetition of the Second World War was not planned, and nuclear weapons completely turned strategy and tactics.

    It was nuclear weapons that required maximum cover for the troops behind the armor - tanks + BMP / armored personnel carriers are our everything. That is, if in WWII most of the infantry could be transported without problems in cars, then in a nuclear conflict it is no longer worth it.
    And not only it - specifically, tanks at the end of the Great Patriotic War had a new enemy - a hand-held anti-tank rocket weapon, light and compact, which only developed later. And later, ATGMs, attack aircraft and helicopters, new types of mines, and even later - attack and reconnaissance UAVs. As a result, the massive use of tanks against a serious enemy became difficult, which the wars proved time after time

    In fact, wars have proven time and time again the importance and urgency of numerous and well-protected tanks.
  12. +3
    16 October 2021 12: 05
    Actually, the beginning of the war proved this - the Khatskilevich corps (the strongest mechanized corps of the ZOVO) was driven into the offensive without air defense, without knowing the situation and without the support of the Air Force.
    What a stuffing in the style of Rezun ... It has already been chewed a hundred times why it happened, but no ...
    1. -3
      16 October 2021 17: 53
      The article remotely reminded me of Drogovoz's book "The Tank Sword of the Land of Soviets". In part, a lot of tanks, a lot of costs for their maintenance. So the Union could not bear this load.
  13. +3
    16 October 2021 13: 23
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    In fact, wars have proven time and time again the importance and urgency of numerous and well-protected tanks.

    The author apparently forgot a good principle: Luck is always on the side of large battalions. bully
    And yes, the T-34, with all its merits, was the most powerful precisely because of its mass character.
    1. Alf
      +2
      16 October 2021 22: 18
      Quote: KSVK
      yes, the T-34, for all its merits, was the most powerful precisely because of its mass character

      And success everywhere. Tiger and Panther tanks are great, but even they couldn't be in three places at the same time. While the next Carius was burning a dozen T-34s, another dozen bypassed him from the flank-rear and the tank ace had to abandon his Tiger and stomp a fart steam for a new one along with the retreating infantry.
  14. +3
    16 October 2021 13: 53
    > but they were superior in organization and won.

    It was worth noting the connection, almost ubiquitous among the Nazis, which gave a gigantic advantage.

    About German quality at the end of the war, I fundamentally disagree, because the quality of the armor has become extremely poor, and a combat vehicle with shitty armor cannot be of high quality.

    About the result of the article - the use of MBT in the conditions of nuclear weapons is considered, but the issue of application in local conflicts, where there is no way without a tank, is not considered. The death of this class of weapons was predicted many times, but the tank will never die.
    1. Alf
      +3
      16 October 2021 22: 19
      Quote: Victor Tsenin
      The death of this class of weapons was predicted many times, but the tank will never die.

      After WW2, how many times were both manned aircraft and cannon artillery buried ... But in no way ...
      1. +1
        16 October 2021 22: 32
        I agree with the remark as an eloquent example.
  15. The comment was deleted.
  16. 0
    16 October 2021 23: 29
    I understood why the author imputes mass production of tanks to modern Russia. Just Russia is only modernizing the already produced tanks. And Aramata does not go to the troops (in general).
  17. +4
    17 October 2021 00: 48
    Sir, sort out the topic, and then write.
    If at the beginning of the article there is the A-20 tank, as a separate project, then there is nothing further to read.
  18. +1
    17 October 2021 23: 30
    .... It is not in vain that the Ministry of Defense is in no hurry with Armata, rearmament is money, colossal money, and a jerk of tank armies to the English Channel is somehow not foreseen, and it has not been possible since Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
    Yes, nothing to do with these Japanese cities, just a leap (unfortunately) is impossible for objective reasons - the country with the name of the Russian Federation does not have that potential, there is no Warsaw Pact, and, accordingly, our groups of forces in these countries, our tank armies on their territory ... ... That's all. Your armata is junk, on which they ditched a hell of a lot of money. A tank with an uninhabited turret is up to the first grenade launcher, or ATGM operator, since the crew, first of all the commander, are deprived of the opportunity to observe the situation on the battlefield, if someone says about the cameras on the armor, I'll just laugh ... sad
  19. 0
    19 October 2021 01: 36
    For a long time already, and in more than one source, I met data that during the Second World War about 100 units of armored vehicles were produced, and that, on average, each unit was repaired FIVE TIMES... I also met passions about how they worked in the shops, which in the rear were dismantling burnt-out armored vehicles, taking out the remains of tankers (I don't understand - the burned "box" doesn't seem to be repairable, the thermal was covered, only in March ??), but for this data not handler, the source is usually OGG (one citizen said).
  20. +1
    22 October 2021 01: 12
    "79 tanks were destroyed in Ukraine." It will not be enough. According to http://lostarmour.info/, there are 227 irrecoverable tanks, of which only 42 have been written off. The number of 227 includes 48 who have become trophies of the militia. All 227 were confirmed by photo and video materials, although in reality the irrecoverable losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in tanks are even greater.
  21. -1
    25 October 2021 22: 59
    this is called afterthought.
  22. 0
    27 November 2021 14: 19
    A very well-thought-out and logical publication. Like the author hi
  23. 0
    15 December 2021 11: 57
    I read the controversies with interest. Poor Guderian, he thought after Mtsensk T-34 that it was an excellent tank. With his competent use by Katukov, his brigade gave Guderian a lot of trouble. Well, the "corporal" before the start of the battle on the Kursk Bulge directly wrote, in his address to the soldier, that the Russians owed their victories to their tanks. And the Tiger was the answer to the KV-1, and the Panther to the T-34. The Germans did not hide this.
    1. 0
      16 December 2021 10: 53
      Panther yes, Tiger no. Development of the heavy tank - which the Tiger became - began long before June 1941.
  24. 0
    24 December 2021 08: 57
    how comrade Katukov smashes a German tank division with a small brigade, which the mechanized corps did not manage just a couple of months earlier.

    That's why he didn't like Katukov Zhukov ...

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