New weapon for special forces and pilots: PPK-20U submachine gun

Russian pilots will now receive a new individual rifle weapon... And this weapon will be a new Kalashnikov submachine gun of a special series - PPK-20U.

PPK-20U is a novelty from the concern, which attracted considerable attention during the Army-2021 forum. The reason is connected, among other things, with the fact that it is the new Kalashnikov submachine gun that should be included in the wearable emergency reserve (NAZ) of Russian military pilots as the main weapon.

PPK-20U is actually one of the versions of "Vityaz-SN" - small arms for special forces. Such weapons are convenient for carrying out fire in confined spaces. Therefore, it is suitable, among other things, for conducting counter-terrorist operations, including operations to free hostages.

The submachine gun, already in the basic version, is equipped with several strips for attaching additional elements (tactical flashlight, NVD - night vision device, etc.)

The PPK-20U has a new front sight, which actually increases the aiming line, as a result, the accuracy of firing will also be increased.

More details about the new submachine gun are described in the review on the Lazarev Tactical channel:

Comments

[eleronn]

Weight, sighting range, magazine capacity, caliber, rate of fire? Where is it all? Empty chatter ...

[Andrey VOV]

This has been written and rewritten on the site several times, look carefully

[Seryoga64]

They forgot to ask about the price
Weight, kg 3,65 kg (with cartridges)
Length, mm (with stock folded 640), 700 mm
Barrel length, mm 233 mm
Cartridge 9x19 mm Parabellum
Caliber, mm 9 mm
Principles of operation Free shutter
Type of ammunition sector magazine for 30 rounds
The sight is open, there is a side rail for attaching various sighting devices, a Picatinny rail

[Bogalex]

That is, the new PP is more than a pound heavier than the AKSU-74, it is only 3 cm shorter than it (and with the stock folded it is also 15 cm longer) and uses a cartridge nowhere else (taking into account the announced replacement of the PYa with "Boas") in the Ministry of Defense applicable.
And what's the catch?

[Doctor]

That is, the new PP is more than a pound heavier than the AKSU-74, it is only 3 cm shorter than it (and with the stock folded it is also 15 cm longer) and uses a cartridge nowhere else (taking into account the announced replacement of the PYa with "Boas") in the Ministry of Defense applicable.
And what's the catch?

In the invention of the bicycle.
The same Cedar is 2 times more compact, weighs 1,8 and a cartridge of 9x18.

[Slon1978]

Cedar is a freak with a weak cartridge, worse accuracy, no ergonomics. Typical product of the 90s, shooting stamping. In the post above, the weight of PPK-20U is indicated WITH CARTRIDGES, length with PBS.

[Nexcom]

The same Cedar is 2 times more compact, weighs 1,8 and a cartridge of 9x18.

This cartridge is being phased out by the MO.
At the moment, the pistol MO uses the entire 9x19 and 9x21 nomenclature.

Regarding Cedar - relatively recently there was information that it was remade for the entire 9x19 line, which also indicates that the 9x18 PM (sometimes referred to as 9.2x18 PM to distinguish it from the German 9x18 Ultra Police from Geko) is leaving the scene.

[ProkletyiPirat]

Quote: Arzt

In the invention of the bicycle.

rather, in the invention of another "fatal flaw"
https://lurkmore.to/Фатальный_недостаток

[Cowbra]

... and again the stock is not on the line. Zadolbali

[riwas]

The main task of the downed pilot is not to betray himself, the weapon must be silent. Maybe there should be a weapon that temporarily incapacitates civilians so that they do not give it out. There must be a good rescue service. And there should be luck, not close combat with a submachine gun for the advantage. Rutskoi's memoirs are interesting in this regard.
https://www.gazeta.ru/science/2018/08/04_a_11883097.shtml

[Peak]

Quote: riwas

And there should be luck, not close combat with a submachine gun for the advantage.

And if the EVERYTHING Has Fortune finally changed, and the only alternative to captivity and painful death is the hope for the last battle, the last cartridge for oneself or a grenade for oneself and the enemy?

[riwas]

And if EVERYTHING, Fortune finally changed, and the alternative to captivity and painful death is only the hope for the last battle, the last cartridge for oneself or a grenade for oneself and the enemy?

So read Rutskoi, he survived despite being captured.

[Peak]

Quote: riwas

So read Rutskoi, he survived despite being captured.

Read, and more than once. Perhaps even when you did not go to school yet, and perhaps even before you were born.

Rutskoi survived in captivity only because he was a "big shot" around which the auction immediately began.

Yes, both the time and the "spirits" then were not the same as they are now, for example ISIS-DAISH in Syria ...

[Cowbra]

Forgive me, but no matter how it was - Rutskoi did not shake the bananas, but fought, have respect - no need ... Hm ... It's bad to say.
And for Roman Filipov - this is our joint, we could not. Obligated - but did not. He is a hero. Hero of the Russian Federation. But we screwed up

[serg.shishkov2015]

I agree with everything, but you forgot one moment - the pilot MUST be able to shoot well! The article in * Master-Shotgun * o * Colt * М1911 begins with a story about a helicopter pilot shot down in Vietnam, he was saved by a reliable and powerful pistol and pre-war shooting skills - it was thanks to this that he held out until the rescuers arrived.

[Peak]

Quote: serg.shishkov2015

You forgot one moment - the pilot MUST be able to shoot well!

Are there any explainable objective obstacles to instilling a pilot's shooting skill while still in school, and then maintaining the skill in combat service?

[serg.shishkov2015]

Words of wisdom! save on cartridges, preparing top-class pros - sabotage!

[Peak]

Quote: serg.shishkov2015

save on cartridges, preparing top-class pros - sabotage!

In the 21st century, when we launch "Zircons" with "Petrel", to save on ammunition, more than - sabotage

[Bez 310]

Quote: serg.shishkov2015

the pilot MUST be good at shooting!

The pilot must be able to fly well and use airborne weapons. The pilot practically does not know how to shoot from small arms,
is only able to achieve the bullet exit from the barrel towards the target. In year
in the aviation regiment of shooting from a PM pistol, as many as two are organized
once a year, in each of the periods of study, and that's it.

[Cowbra]

Quote: Bez 310

The pilot must be able to fly well and apply

An old song - if a commander grabs a rifle, then he is shit, not a commander. There are also more abruptly on this topic

[cat Rusich]

Quote: Cowbra

An old song - if a commander grabs a rifle, then he is shit, not a commander. There are also more abruptly on this topic

Imagine ...
Platoon leader, company commander ... somewhere near Stalingrad, in the summer of 1942, he reads to the soldiers Order number 227 ...
There is no fault of the platoon, company commander, battalion commander and even the regiment commander when the entire front collapsed.

[Cowbra]

You are still for the reconnaissance company or the RDP, tell me. You got it

[cat Rusich]

Quote: Cowbra

You are still for the reconnaissance company or the RDP, tell me. You got it

I will say for the "three-month platoon" ...
During the Second World War, the platoon commander was trained for three-month courses... Attack platoon commander walked first, leading the rest of the soldiers.
Remember Afghan and Chechnya - platoon and company commanders dressed like all other privates so that the sniper could not distinguish. It would look strange "private without a machine gun (rifle)"...

[Cowbra]

Quote: cat Rusich

the platoon leader was the first to attack

Brother, where are we now in a line scratching to attack?
Eh, the sleeves are higher, and the belts are tighter ... It has been worse

[cat Rusich]

Quote: Cowbra

Brother, where are we now in a line scratching to attack?
Eh, the sleeves are higher, and the belts are tighter ... It has been worse

You can remember Fight at height 776...
Company commander Major S. Molodov went on a combat mission with his company.
Was superfluous there 2nd battalion commander Lieutenant Colonel M. Evtyukhin - his task, in fact, should have been to meet the needs of the 6th company:
1) air and artillery support
2) transfer of reinforcements and ammunition
For the battalion commander, it is better to do this from the headquarters of the regiment, and not from height 776.

[Cowbra]

No, dear, I can call it more abruptly - only you, apparently, do not understand. For fun - 73 center. And Saur the grave

[Gnat76]

So, that's why the pilots need to be armed with revolvers, anyway, if they find a hook, and so they will have a dashing, dashing look of a guy's sack.
Well, you can also add one more OZM-72 mine to break away from the chase.

[Cowbra]

Brother, if the pilot is using it, he has already been found. Think with your head.
But in general - I have little idea how it will hold out at least half an hour. Mnu - let's say they taught me, I can shake their tails, but pilots - ninay, it seems unlikely that they have run ODON)

[serg.shishkov2015]

he was not found before the rescuers arrived - he was able to take just such a position! but with his accurate shooting, he disoriented the Viet Cong. and a weapon with a silencer gives you more chances! in any case, the pilot must be able to shoot! without this skill, his trunk is an extra burden! the topic of Afgan is not at all alien to me! I know that our flyers were fully armed there! instead of PM-APS or trophy * Beretta *. machine gun and grenades, specially NAZ sorted out, so that there was a place for weapons

[Cowbra]

Are you going to tell me that the parachuting fighter is very invisible? And that the other side is looking for a flyer in full - news to you?

[Cowbra]

Listen, trust me for a second - I can shoot! Believe in the USSR national team, others were not taken. You are stuck. a dozen, well, let the five barmaleev - do not shoot. Leave with shooting, this is a stack with three clips - if you know how. But you are taught as cops. Shoot towards the target. You don’t get anywhere in the shooting range, but it’s calm there. They don't shoot back and there is no enemy

[Doctor]

Brother, if the pilot is using it, he has already been found. Think with your head.
But in general - I have little idea how it will hold out at least half an hour. Mnu - let's say they taught me, I can shake their tails, but pilots - ninay, it seems unlikely that they have run ODON)

There was a case in Vietnam when the Americans had an emergency landing of a helicopter.
A sniper was among the passengers. After the second dozen, the Vietnamese decided, well nah ...

[Cowbra]

Quote: Arzt

There was a sniper among the passengers

Mnu worked with a grenade launcher - and the sniper got it back. The cavalry pulled in from behind the hillock. otherwise I would definitely run with a burning tire

[Jacket in stock]

Machine weight and dimensions Kalash, but the power of Makarov.
A strange choice. If you don't know about such a thing as lobbying.
The "good" people came to an agreement with the "necessary" ones, and most likely they didn't even ask the pilots.

[Slon1978]

Controversial statement. In terms of cartridge power (power, as they say), the AK-74U surpasses the PPK-20U, in terms of the effective fire range (~ 200 meters) they are equal, but the AK-74U is inferior to (1) in accuracy and accuracy, (2) concealment of fire, ( 3) wearable ammunition. The PPK-20U for the pilot is by far the best choice compared to the AK-74U.

[hhurik]

I'm embarrassed to ask - where did you get these numbers from, on which fence, or did you just pick it out of your nose? The bullet energy of the 5,45x39 cartridge is 2,5-3 times higher than that of the 9x19 - such a funny perdimonocle, just by default, due to its design - it therefore belongs to the family of intermediate ones. And you seriously compare it with the pistol and even find some advantages in the latter? Amazing.

[Slon1978]

Have you read my post carefully? Let me quote myself - "In terms of cartridge power (power, as they say), the AK-74U is superior to the PPK-20U." Power 5,45 x 39 for the AK-74U is excessive, the barrel is short and heats up quickly, the aiming line is short, the recoil is much stronger than on the AK-74. Now imagine the situation - two experienced shooters at the turn of 100 meters. Which of them will put more bullets into a chest target in, say, 15 seconds? The answer, I think, is obvious. And at a longer distance, it hardly makes sense for a pilot hiding from the enemy.

[hhurik]

Why is 100 meters critical for you? I suggest 15 meters. The answer, I think, is obvious - the PP is redundant, do not go to the fortune-teller.
I propose to tie a folding bow to the ejection seat. Scotch tape.
L-l-logic

[Cowbra]

Quote: Slon1978

Now imagine the situation - two experienced shooters at the turn of 100 meters. Which of them will put more bullets in the chest target,

The flyer ejected and I'm sorry - it's pretty ... Unpleasant thing
PiSi: and pistol ... There are different. TT is pretty unhappy. only if you know how - you can write out a monogram. APS is a very guano patron, but I was, you know, on the Union team. bullet shooting ... There are still medals, and with APS. Well, I can arrange APB, believe me, so that it will be beautiful.

[vl903]

Quote: Slon1978

Controversial statement. In terms of cartridge power (power, as they say), the AK-74U surpasses the PPK-20U, in terms of the effective fire range (~ 200 meters) they are equal, but the AK-74U is inferior to (1) in accuracy and accuracy, (2) concealment of fire, ( 3) wearable ammunition. The PPK-20U for the pilot is by far the best choice compared to the AK-74U.

You will also offer the pilot with a Berdan ...
and this is at a time when friends have an M16 collapsible and NAZ ...
we have both AM17 and microwave and AVK521 make them in a collapsible version ...
and even under 9x19 there are pp much better ...
just sabotage ...
Shoigu with his 25-year-old generals to give on ppk20 and send to the Turkomans

[Slon1978]

AM-17 - the same AK-74U with a new body kit. About the civilian modular AKV-521 carbine I did not understand the idea at all, if there was one. And what does the microwave have to do with it? I liked making a collapsible version :) I think the most important and urgent task for a downed pilot on enemy territory will be to ... assemble his personal weapons at the landing site. I appreciated the humor, thanks. It is not necessary to enumerate that "we still have", I'm afraid it will be difficult for me to argue against the collapsible NSV Utes. In general, I caught your approach - to develop a collapsible Pecheneg with optics, with three boxes of cartridges and a grenade launcher, preferably also collapsible :) Task number two is to design an airplane and an ejection seat so that all this would fit into the NAZ. But this is also nonsense. Think at your leisure over the question - why in the NAZ, in addition to the PPK-20U and everything else, there is also a PLC in the breast pocket. It would seem, why a gun if there is a PP. Do you have any answer options?

[Nexcom]

Machine weight and dimensions Kalash, but the power of Makarov.

Muzzle energy 9x18 PM - 330 J,
9x18 PMM - 450 J, 9x19 Luger - 500 J,

Comparison is given for standard ammunition (not armor-piercing).

9x19 7N31 - 570 J, increased penetration

[Avior]

... Such weapons are convenient for carrying out fire in confined spaces.

And what does this have to do with the pilot?
A weapon, first of all, should be light - whether it will have to be used - it is unknown, but you will have to run with it for sure

[Aurel]

Despite its compactness, it looks massive.

[Wildcat]

How to make a good thing worse, a guide for beginners using the example of AKS74u:
1. Take a machine gun and remake it for a pistol cartridge.
2. We take and fold the stock not to the left, but to the right, so that the operation of the bolt and fuse does not seem like honey.
3. Any, in general, any weapon ugliness is the main thing to call "for spetsnaz".
And in general, why bother with the topic of "how to do something good" if you can remake a Kalashnikov assault rifle 100500 times?

[Bez 310]

Pilots will not "receive" this submachine gun.
This PPK-20u will be put in the NAZ, and the pilots will not even
will never be seen, if only at shooting practice.

[Peak]

Quote: Bez 310

This PPK-20u will be put in the NAZ

There he belongs, until an event that, hopefully, will not happen.
The pilot will shoot him, check the correctness of the battle, if necessary, it will lead to normal ("shoot") and after cleaning and moderate lubrication with the equipped, he will personally put him in the NAZ ...

[Bez 310]

Quote: PiK

The pilot will shoot him, check the correctness of the battle, if necessary, it will lead to normal ("shoot") and after cleaning and moderate lubrication with the equipped, he will personally put him in the NAZ ...

Do not be naive ...
The pilot will not do any of the above, he
it just doesn't know how. And the pilot's "personal" NAZ
no, NAZ is in a parachute, a parachute is in an airplane, and the pilot
flies on different planes, and does not carry a parachute with him.
So the pilot will get acquainted with the PP, which lies in the NAZ
only after the bailout.

[Avior]

Good afternoon.
Could you express your opinion on how much weight a pilot can have not in the NAZ in a chair, but directly on himself in a vest, subject to ejection.
What is the maximum weight a single item can have, for example, the maximum weight and dimensions of weapons and other items that may be with you.
Taking into account the restrictions on ejection, possible overloads in flight, the allowable space in the cockpit?

[Bez 310]

Quote: Avior

Could you give your opinion

This is a very difficult question, and there is no definite answer here.
Answers to your question are given only by tests, but I mean such
Do not know. I can only say about myself - everything is superfluous in the cockpit
and on myself it bothered and annoyed me, even the ASP (aviation
life belt). Do not forget that the pilot is all in belts,
they bother him terribly, I can't even imagine
vest - "unloading".
But, as the saying goes - "if you want to live, you will not get so excited."

[Avior]

Thanks for the reply.
They write that such tests are underway. So far done only for helicopter pilots, trying to adapt to a catapult
https://www.google.com/amp/s/voennoedelo.com/ampposts/id822-pjplejd4hch3uh6liysx

[beeper]

Subscribed to the YouTube channel of Konstantin Lazarev, so I watched this video about the PPK-20U immediately after it was posted on the Web.
Under the guise of pretentious "reasoning" Konstantin (about "sort of PDW", "finally compactly folding butt" and "finally a pipe" not welded to the barrel "of this" wunderwaffe "), who even forgot the name of" our downed pilot "(about which casually, "illustratively", mentioned), allegedly "who shot all the cartridges (but where are" all the cartridges "if the bandits showed clear footage with only half consumed (apparently refused long-term storage, fully equipped, with an extremely compressed supply spring ?!) shops to "Stechkin" of the heroically deceased Major Roman Filipov!) ", it was interesting to watch (in the background) calm and imperturbable Vladimir Onakoy, who at that time was busily working at the KK stand with potential customers from" developing countries ".
***
I absolutely did NOT understand the "meaning" for the pilots in this particular bulky thing "based on the receiver and other gadgets of the AK", also with completely unnecessary hide and seek "with enemies) hooked (for everything) Picatines" for additional mounting of gadgets "?!
"Weapon blogger" Lazarev is completely unaware that with a short, thin-walled, rapidly heating barrel and a relatively weak (with a pronounced bullet trajectory) pistol cartridge, such a "fashionable chip" of commercial weapons marketing is a "free-hanging barrel (with an additional" "a metal can at the muzzle, deliberately distorting the" aftereffect of powder gases "on a low-speed pistol bullet that has flown out of the barrel)" - this may be even worse for maintaining a uniform "sighting point" and the possibility of heat removal than a "rigidly fixed" barrel (with the help of additional support - attaching the same "tube" - guiding the "gas piston rudiment", the reciprocating spring "branch" of the PPK-20U shutter) ?!
***
The commercial interest of the concern is understandable - "without spending too much money on changing the main parts, components and proven technologies, sell your next shooting craft to the military at a high price!"
***
"The mountain has given birth to a mouse!"
But the military themselves, the high-ranking pilots themselves, who "clap their ears", DO NOT know and DO NOT demand what they owe, unconditionally "content with what they were given" ??!
Really, spending many millions of rubles on the training of each military pilot and navigator, it is impossible to strain a little and equip them with really compact and light weapons of self-defense, simple in design and use (in which case, even one unbroken hand, only easily touched by shrapnel, with two, miraculously preserved on a burnt and frostbitten hand, fingers with limited mobility, smashed and swollen ...), reliable and powerful enough (albeit chambered for the same 9x19mm "Para" cartridge, which is widespread in enemy territory and a hypothetical possibility is provided " replenishment of ammunition ") ?!
After all, it is possible (using advanced materials and technologies) to design a decent weapon for flight personnel, if you want and really try, correctly apply the power of weapons thought and engineering knowledge!
***
I watched the program "Military Acceptance" (according to the link that opens in the frame after watching the video to this Article) on the same topic, it shows an enviable experimental production base of the KB of the KK concern, but the designers sitting there do not see a single drawing board - all "twist 3D "on multiple screens of monitors (according to the explanations of the Glavkonstruktor" they calculate all the modes of the designed samples "and virtually" check the assembly of the structure "), and do not operate with" mental images "in their heads, deliberately drawing every millimeter by hand on a Whatman paper," on a scale of one to one "-because they do not" feel "these" millimeters of material "," they do not think with their hands ", helping the head with tactile motor skills of a tangible man-made drawing," purely virtually "create their own monstrous" ribs for pilots (and, arguing in an infantry way, for spetsnaz, such a weighty "product" is also burdensome, even if "in the city") ", then" printing "plastic layouts on a 3D printer.
But with the given dimensions, "proven" for decades of mass production, the receiver of the "adult" AK is impossible to minimize the dimensions of the "baby" and over and over again at the CC on this "base", alas, only "ankle-footed" AK broilers "hatch"!
At least, the would-be designers, "Urzhumtsevites", made in this "compact PP" a forward-folding (along the barrel) magazine receiver with an attached magazine - it would not stick out so much in the "stowed position" and will always be "at hand" ...
***
Actually, if in an amicable way, it should be done in the same way as the filmmaker Oliver Stone did with his selected film actors before filming the movie "Platoon" ...
Take a group of designers of this "compact masterpiece" and individually eject (with all the attendant overloads and stresses) from a dive plane!
To a swampy wooded area.
If everyone safely undergoes the bailout and lands without bodily harm, then (by "scouting methods" of immobilizing the "injured limb" - by temporarily bandaging it to the body) each simulate probable fractures and injuries of the warring pilots, hand over the NAZ complete with their "creation" and blank cartridges , to appoint a rather difficult "training route", dates and a "gathering point" (and "to speed up" on the heels of everyone to start up search groups with dogs), and let them run around and "survive" in a "situation close to combat"!
After such tough "races", I am sure, they will have the right thoughts on the given topic and on their own (in my opinion, made by arms merchants unreasonably burdensome, without due respect for the ground self-defense of pilots! ) "masterpiece" - "the work of their crooked hands" can no longer "look with adoration"!
***
In addition, in the Combat Application Center, the concept of winning actions of a downed pilot in typical tactical situations of evasion from pursuit and attempts to capture, in what situations and how his defensive weapon should be used!
And it should not be overlooked that no, even the best, self-defense weapon will save pilots without an established systems promptly operating Search and Rescue Service!
***
So I think that for the chance of a sudden breakthrough of the enemy environment, it will be useful to conduct a high-rate continuous fire - a kind of stunning "fire raid" in the entire capacity of the store (which it is desirable to make very capacious, but trouble-free even with long-term storage in the NAZ with fully equipped cartridges, because, as showed the failed stores of Major Filipov's "Stechkin", pilots do not always bother with preventive unloading and loading of their weapon magazines, so the metal of the feed spring "gets tired and sits down", especially in such "age" samples made a long time ago, like APS .. .. lazy gunsmiths designers will probably guess without a hint how to do it better, without overly complicating, and where even simplifying, the design of such a submachine gun. )!
***
In conclusion, I will say, m. and commonplace, but
The price of such a design "laziness of thought" and a lack of experience, the resulting shortcomings, respectable or deliberate promotion of "what happened" is always (even in civil engineering!) Human Lives !!!
IMHO

[Wildcat]

The mass "does not beat":
2,7 / 3,0 empty / equipped - AKS74u
3,65 kg (with cartridges) - PPK-20
That is, this is all, but on the pistol cartridge they made it even harder? More than half a kilo?

[Black cowl]

There is something incomprehensible in the video about the gas outlet pipe and the shutter that goes along it.

[hhurik]

The 9x19 ammunition does not provide for a gas outlet, for it is weak and weak in essence and is supplemented by the energy of a free shutter. But the bullet is made on the AK-base, with the minimum possible changes, therefore, the bolt carrier was left as it is, sawing off the piston, the main thing is that the weight is suitable for the operation of the automation.
Accordingly, the gas pipe in this craft is also fake, because there is no vent hole in the barrel. Apparently, earlier everything was like an AK, with attachment to the barrel - but now this tube has been broken off from the barrel, attaching it to something else.
Actually, this does not affect the main design defect - due to the shape of the bolt carrier, the recoil of the bolt does not occur in a straight line, but tends upward. As a result, after 3-4 thousand shots, the guides break out, along which the shutter runs. To counter this effort, the designers hammered a nail (nano-rivet) into the receiver cover, which supposedly prevents the bolt from jumping vertically. What is typical - this does not happen on AK at all, since the pressure on the valve occurs in two horizontal planes at the same time.

[Owl]

For pilots: accommodation in NAZ (this is such a bag, on a halyard several meters long); will be placed with a detached store ;. Questions: how can a downed pilot, descending on a parachute, be able to prepare for a "meeting" on the ground with those who shot him down and is waiting below? How can a pilot who is seriously wounded in one arm be able to bring a submachine gun into combat condition? Will the equipment of this product, which is in NAZ, be equipped with a silencer for the sound of shots and a collimator sight?

[acetophenone]

It's just ok some ... Such foolishness to shoot 9x19 ??? It looks like they are now recruiting anyone into the Kalashnikov ...

[Alex Grigoriev]

Kalashnikov climbs into all the cracks. There are really compact samples for pilots. PP2000 for example.