Mongols against the Chinese Song Empire

241

Troops march from Karakorum in mid. XIII century Reconstruction by M.V. Gorelik

Even Genghis Khan recommended to involve her “eternal” bloodlines, the Song Empire, in the war with the Jin empire. As we saw in the previous article on VO, dedicated to the last stage of the war against the Golden Empire, Song or Southern Song did take part in the siege of the last capital of this empire, Caizhou (Runan). The Sung troops, who were renowned experts in military technology, erected siege weapons. This is how the Sung diplomat Peng Da-ya characterized the Mongolian technique of sieges:

“At one time, when (the Mongol army) attacked Fengxiang and concentrated all forces on shelling one corner of the city wall, four hundred (stone throwers) were installed there at once. Of the rest of the military equipment, they have nothing else worth talking about. "

Obviously, for Song, whose specialists have reached great heights in fortification and siege, Mongolian technology was not something outstanding. But the question was not about technology, but about the military system. With whom Song soon met.



Mongols against the Chinese Song Empire
Siege of Kaifin 1232 Artist V. Reynold. Ed. Osprey

Union of Mongols and Chinese


In an outburst of thirst for revenge and revenge that Song harbored against the Jurchens who seized their northern lands and capitals, Emperor Li-tsun, as is often the case in stories, did not consider the Mongols as dangerous allies. It is significant that by this time the war in the north, against two "barbarian" empires in China: Xi Xia and Jin, had been waged by the Mongols for more than twenty years. Song periodically made attempts to return "her" lands from weakened rivals, but did not understand how much a dangerous ally and neighbor they had acquired at their borders.

It is important to note that despite huge human resources and increased productivity, the distribution of income in Song was highly inefficient.

For two hundred years, productivity in agriculture has increased several times due to rice, this crop has completely replaced wheat. Crafts and technologies developed, there was a large military and merchant fleet. This empire in the southeast of Eurasia was very reminiscent of Byzantium, apparently, and the structure of Chinese society can be attributed to the pre-class neighboring-territorial community.

80% of government revenues were spent on the army, which participated in constant wars with two northern empires, as we wrote about in VO in previous articles, as well as in wars with Tibetan and other tribes in the south-west of modern China, the Sunts and ethnic groups fought Indochina, who periodically fell into vassalage from them.

Despite the huge spending on the army, and the presence of the famous theoretical military treatises on the conduct of hostilities and the training of troops, the armed forces of the Song have always been inferior to their neighbors from the north, Liao and Jin. The problem was that due to the lack of horses, the empire could not have cavalry capable of withstanding the "nomadic" empires. The Mongols quickly realized this.

The Mongols twice offered the Song to enter the war with the Jin, but they were in no hurry, and the Mongol ambassadors, traveling home, were killed by the Sunts at the border.

The Mongol corps, heading for the Golden Empire, raided through the Chinese borderlands, showing their strength. But the Mongols did not want to antagonize the southern empire while their enemy, the Jurchen, was alive, and Song agreed to help the Mongols with troops and food.

Rashid ad Din told an interesting story, which allegedly became the reason for the quarrel between the Mongols and the "Nangyas", as the Mongols called the subjects of the Songs. The Mongols, after the death of Jin, did not believe that Emperor Aizong had died. His subjects claimed that this was true, they were supported by the Sunts. When the Mongols demanded his head, there was confusion. The Suntsy gave someone's hand instead of a head, the Mongols were offended, but in those conditions they could not do anything with their allies.

Of course, other sources tell this story somewhat differently. But if Rashid ad Din's version is correct, we can say that this could be an important reason for starting a new war, the reason was the wealth of the southern empire.

It is especially worth noting that such a position emphasizes the peculiarities of the Mongolian vision of the world, which we have repeatedly drawn attention to in previous articles.

Moreover, the Song Empire, which played a significant role in the death of the Golden Empire, claimed more than the Mongols believed. During the war with Jin Song, the troops, as allies of the Mongols, occupied their former capital Kaifeng, or rather its ruins, and the neighboring province of Hepan. Then they moved troops to capture Guanzhong (modern Shaanxi province). These were the lands where the Chinese civilization arose. At this time, despite the fact that the main forces of the Golden Empire were defeated and their emperor died, many areas continued to resist, as the "Yuan Shi" writes about. But it was not the Jurchens who became an obstacle in the path of the southern army, but the Mongols. They, leaving for their camps, opened dams on the Yellow River, and the entire Song army at Kaifeng perished under the waters of the river, and in Guanzhong they completely destroyed a corps of 25 thousand soldiers. Then the Mongols in 1234 raided the Song.

I repeat, despite the fact that the wars of the Mongols with the neighbors of the Chinese empire had been going on for twenty years, in Song they knew little about the Mongols, we have reached the notes of the diplomats of the empire who visited Mongolia in 1234 and 1235, where they were surprised to discover her. While on the Kurultai in 1235 it was decided to start a war with the Southern Song.

The beginning of the wars


Throughout 1236 and 1237. Mongols raided the northern borders of the Song: the territories of the southern part of Shaanxi, Sichuan, Hubek, southern Henan and Anhui (modern Anhui).

The Mongols began to act in the border provinces of the Chinese empire in the same way as against Xi Xia and Jin. The Mongol raids were not limited to this, they even reached along the lower reaches of the Yangtze to the Jiangsu province, located on the coast of the South Sea. At the same time, when they succeeded, the Mongols also captured cities, for example, Guangzhou in Henan. The raids wore down the Song forces. One of the commanders and inspirers of the campaigns against the Song, according to Yuan Shi, was the Tangut Chagan among the Mongols. The one who saved his father during the siege of Ganzhou in Xi Xia.


Warriors of the Song. XIII century Modern reconstruction

But when it came to taking fortified cities, the Mongols retreated. These were, of course, tactical tricks. It can be assumed that with the help of the raids, the Mongols, as it were, "aimed at" before organizing the final campaign. Moreover, the provinces undergoing the raid were very rich and there was something to profit from here. At the same time, it must be said that the cities of the northern provinces of the Southern Song, which even before the Mongols were raided by the Jurchens, had powerful fortifications; below we will see that some of them held out for several years. Fortification science was at a high level in the Song. The work of Chen Gui, author of the 500th century, "The Most Important Statement of the Defense of Fortresses", anticipated many of S. Vauban's postulates by XNUMX years.

Again, the Song empire in its potential could not be compared with any of the countries of that world. And this was felt by the Mongols, who began to look for workarounds to the empire. Meanwhile, Song requested peace from them, and the treaty was signed in 1238 on the terms of payment of tribute. The tribute was equal to what Song paid to the Khitan state of Liao, before its increase at the beginning of the XNUMXth century. Then the payments caused the silver crisis and the introduction of paper money into circulation. Considering the fact that the economy of the Chinese state has grown significantly since that time, this tribute was very large, but certainly not critical.


Chinese medieval market. Beijing History Museum. PRC. Photo by the author

The Mongols, of course, were the most powerful war machine in the XNUMXth century, but they faced the most powerful country of the same century, unlike other opponents of the nomads, which has a homogeneous ethnic composition. In such conditions, the diplomatic tricks and cunning of the Mongols were in vain, everything could be decided only on the battlefields.

Sudden reprieve


In 1241, the great khan Ogedei died, after strife and agreements, Guyuk ascended the throne. He was one of those who, after the conquest of Jin, proposed to destroy the entire sedentary population here. The strife in the Horde did not end, Guyuk fought with Batu and died in a campaign against him in 1248 near Samarkand. Only three years later Mongke became Khan, he appointed his brother Kublai ruler of Northern China. At the kurultai, he determined the directions of the Mongol wars and said:

“Each of our fathers and older brothers, former sovereigns,” wrote Rashid ad Din, “committed some deed, took some region and raised his name among the people. I, too, will personally go on a hike to go to Nangyas [Sun]. "

In 1252, the treaty with the Song was broken, and Khubilai was appointed commander of the troops against her.

In 1255 Mongke himself led a campaign against Song, although he was dissuaded from doing so.

Flank coverage


Mongke began by covering the flanks. Korea, the countries of southwestern Asia, like Song, were identified as an object of attack even at the kurultai of 1235, especially since Koryo, Dali and northern Vietnam were part of the control zone of the Song empire, periodically paying tribute to it and could become the rear in the struggle Song with the Mongols.

Left flank


Koryo established "friendly relations" with the Mongols, that is, she recognized herself as dependent on them, back in 1218, but at times this "friendship" was interrupted. This was the case in 1225, when the Mongol ambassadors were killed. Invasion across the river. Ammokakan in 1231 of one wing of the Mongol army ended in an unsuccessful siege of the powerful Korean fortress Kuzhu or Kuju (on the territory of the present-day DPRK). During the siege, 28 stone throwers were used at first, and then 31, but the city did not surrender. And the other wing developed an offensive southward, reaching the capital of Kegyeong. The commander of the Mongols, Saritai-khorchi, in a field battle, as usual, by deceitful flight upset the ranks of the Koryoski, and surrounded and destroyed their army. The Mongols destroyed infrastructure and destroyed the population, but everywhere there was an uncompromising struggle against the invaders. The Koryo government signed an agreement under which it was supposed to pay a huge indemnity, but after the main Mongol forces left the country, they immediately refused to pay.


Koryo. City defense. Artist V. Reynold. Ed. Osprey

When we write about the Mongol invasions of Koryo, you need to understand that there were not so many Mongols in the troops, these were the troops of the recently conquered peoples neighboring with Koryo: the Khidans, Jurcheni, Bohao. It was the same in all places where the Mongols fought, for example in Russia.

The new invasion was defeated, accidentally killed by an arrow of Saritai, but the Koryo government recognized vassal dependence on the Mongols.

Having paid a huge tribute with precious metals, fabrics and horses, Koryo did not send hostages, for which the Mongols invaded again in 1236.

And this became the rule, delays in tribute were punishable by raids. For 25 years in Korea died from disease, war, hunger, were driven into slavery about 2 million people.

In 1247, the fourth Mongol invasion of Korea began, now they made their base in the capital area of ​​Kegyon, from where they plundered the surrounding area.

Since 1251, in preparation for the war with the Song, they again invaded Koryo, despite the government's agreement to pay tribute, the Mongols continued to siege cities, but did not succeed. For two months the city of Chungju fought, which the nomads could not take.

But in 1254 the Mongols began to ravage the southern part of the Korean Peninsula, weakly affected by the war, which led to a coup in 1258 on the Ganghwa Islands, where the government was hiding. The new van Wonjon fully recognized the sovereignty of the Mongols, and soon Koryo became part of the Yuan Empire.

Right flank


Mongke launched an offensive on the right flank, capturing the lands of states and tribal unions located in the southwest of modern China. It was the state of Dali (present-day Yunnan province), the predecessor of which was the kingdom of Nanzhao, a Tibetan-Burmese ethnic group of the Mann peoples, black and white. At the head of Nanzhao was the white manei dynasty. Black Mani, having made a coup, set up their dynasty and created the state of Dali. We know little about him.

Nanzhao had a hundredth system of organizing territorial communities, every third man served in the army, the army was horse and foot, all in leather armor. The centurions wore armor made of rhinoceros skin. The shields were decorated with the tails of buffaloes and cats. And the "king" dressed in gold armor and a tiger skin. The entire army was barefoot.

The Mongols, who could hardly endure the heat in the wars in northern China and Central Asia, found themselves in difficult climatic conditions. At the head of the expeditionary force was Uryankhatay (Uryankhaday), the son of Subedei. In the fall of 1253, the Mongols advanced through the territory of the present-day Sichuan and Yunnan provinces. The tribes of the "black mani" submitted to them, and the "white mani" resisted. Uryankhatay and his son Achzhu, using field fortifications, palisades, and stone-throwing guns during several battles, defeated the Dali army. This enabled Khubilai to enter the first capital of the state. Their next capital was taken by Uryankhatay. And Gao-sheng gathered an army of mani against the invaders, but he was defeated at the foot of the Ikelan mountains, Yunnan-Guizhou hill. The next capital, Yachi, was located on a lake, surrounded on three sides by water, the Mongols exhausted the defenders for seven days with a non-stop attack on the gates and drumming, after which Achzhu personally with the brave men broke through the wall and took the city. These wars took place from 1253 to 1255.


Three pagodas and Chuenshen temple. Dali. PRC

Mongols in 1255-1256 climbed the mountains, where Achzhu himself often led the storming of cities. The next was the Tibeto-Burmese state of Chituge, and the related state of Lulusa, after the capture of their two cities, capitulated to the Mongols. Finally, the state of Abo, which had 40 thousand soldiers, surrendered to the Mongols. The next year, Uryankhatay continued to fight with the "states" of the Tibeto-Burmese peoples, here he also encountered the thirty-thousand army of Song Chang Du-tong, which he defeated and took away 200 junks.

In the fall of 1257, the Mongols sent ambassadors to Laos and northern Vietnam, who did not return. Then they invaded the north of Vietnam. The commander of the invasion in 1257 was Uryankhatay, the son of Subedei:

“In the [era of] Nguyen-fong [of the] Chan dynasty (1251-1258), the Tatars came to plunder. When they reached this place, - according to the Vietnamese annals of the Late Li dynasty, - the horses began to stumble and did not move forward. The inhabitants of the village came out and, resisting, began to fight, chopping off the heads of the foreigners. The enemy fled. "

But according to other sources, the Mongols could not win against the ruler Chiang Thai Tong due to the failure to comply with the order of the vanguard commander Chechedu. Tran Thai Tong sent an army against the invaders, which included elephants, cavalry and infantry. The battle took place on a river north of present-day Hanoi, and the Vieta were able to retreat on river ships. Later they recognized themselves as subjects of the Mongols.

So, given the fact that in this area the Mongols even clashed with the corps from Song, their actions to protect the flanks from a military point of view were completely justified. Here they recruited additional contingents of soldiers, and in the war with the Song, as we will see below, there was a serious shortage of personnel.

Mongke's war against Song


Han Mongke stopped the tactics of total terror and mass murder. It would be extremely naive to regard this fact as a kind of softening of morals. Forty-five years ago, when the Mongol expansion began, the conquered neighboring ethnic groups, from the point of view of the nomads, were needed in small numbers to serve as slaves in the nomads, all the rest, as competitors for a food base, were destroyed. But the primitive system of government has since been subjected to significant Sinification. Ambassador Song Xu Ting generally believed that all civil affairs in the Mongol Empire were run by the Chinese Yelui Chutsai and the Uighur Chinkai, and Ambassador Peng Da-ya added that the former ruled all the occupied lands on the territory of modern China and part of the Russian Far East, and the latter by Muslims ...


Map. Campaigns of the Mongols against the Song and its neighbors until the end of the 50s. XIII century

Mongke, following Ogedei, understood that the existence of subjects of the farmers ensures the stability of income. Therefore, he limited robbery and murder during the campaign against the Song.

Khan Mongke gathered a huge army for the campaign against the Song, dividing it, according to the Mongol tradition, into two wings. The right wing was an army commanded by the Great Khan himself. It consisted of 60 tumens, which included warriors from the conquered Jin, Xi Xia and other non-Mongol peoples from this region. The left wing consisted of 30 tumens with Tsarevich Togachar. The army set out at the beginning of 1256 and approached the borders of the Chinese Empire by the fall of 1256.

Togachar with his one hundred thousandth army could not take the important Chinese cities: Si-an-fu (Xiangyang), the capital of the province of Shengxi and Fan-cheng (Fancheng). The Song government sent future Chancellor Jia Sidao as an auditor to the besieged cities.

While in the camp of the conquerors, Togachar was accused of drunkenness, and was replaced by the ailing Khubilai, who led the war more decisively, fighting daily. But when he left the army, the huge Song army defeated them. Thus, things on the left flank went without much success.

Heat and cholera also fought against the Mongol troops:

"... in its lands," Yuan Shi reports, with heat and poisonous fumes, the warriors of the [Mongolian] army all fell ill, and when they met the enemy, they could barely resist and the army lost every fourth person. "

On the right flank, the shock corps was led by the experienced Uryankhatay and his son, they had only three thousand Mongols and ten thousand mani militias. While Uryankhatai fought his way forward with battles, Azhu advanced secretly. This made it possible for the Mongols to defeat the Song troops at the right time in the battle. So they marched through Huyuei province, causing great damage to the rear of the Song, and then returned to Khubilai.

And Mongke Khan himself began bloody diarrhea, and he died under the walls of the city of Hezhou in August 1259.

Khubilai and the other princes had to hurry to the steppe, where the struggle for the throne of the nomadic empire began.

According to legend, Khubilai, wanting to take Ezhou (northern Anhui province), did not rush to the steppe, but his wife hurried him, and then he made peace personally with the official Jia Sidao, who guaranteed the payment of tribute. He himself did not inform either the emperor or other members of the government about this, presenting the case in such a way that it was thanks to his command that the Mongols retreated.

So the Mongols left. The outbreak of the battle for power in the Horde postponed the death of the Chinese state of Southern Song by 15 years.

To be continued ...

Sources and literature:
Giovanni del plano Carpini History of the Mongols. Guillaume de Rubruck A Journey to Eastern Countries, Book of Marco Polo. M., 1997.
Secret legend. Mongolian Chronicle of 1240 titled Mongol-un niruca tobciyan, Moscow, 1941.
Complete collection of Diveet's historical notes. In 8 volumes. Volume 3. Edited by A.L. Fedorin M., 2012.
Rashid ad-Din. Collection of chronicles. Volume II. M., 1960.
History of the East. T. II. M., 1993.
Kradin N.N., Skrynnikova T.D. Empire of Chnngis Khan M., 2006.
Khrapachevsky R.P. The military power of Genghis Khan. M., 2005.
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  1. -16
    3 October 2021 05: 19
    I’m wondering: how long will historians reprint nonsense about the "Mongols who conquered most of Eurasia"? How physically could the few Mongols (and they were few, since animal husbandry is one hundred times less efficient than agriculture per unit area) to seize China, Korea, Central Asian states and Russia?
    1. +20
      3 October 2021 05: 35
      How physically could the few Mongols seize China, Korea, Central Asian states and Russia?

      1. And how did Alexander the Great with a handful of soldiers captured almost all of Asia?
      2. How did a few Germanic tribes destroy mighty Rome?
      3. How did a bunch of vandals take over Carthage?
      4. How did Cortez, with a small detachment, capture and plunder Mexico?
      5. .....
      1. -19
        3 October 2021 07: 02
        Quote: Xlor
        1. And how did Alexander the Great with a handful of soldiers captured almost all of Asia?

        Alexander the Great captured only the Near and Middle East, and not "almost all of Asia", there was not much population there due to the arid climate, and therefore there were not many cities there, only all sorts of things like Babylon. And when Alexander reached India, where there were already states with a large population, his conquests were blown away, he never captured anything across the Indus River.
        Quote: Xlor
        2. How did a few Germanic tribes destroy mighty Rome?

        Western Rome collapsed itself, as the USSR itself collapsed due to the weakness of the leadership and separatist sentiments on the outskirts of the country.
        Quote: Xlor
        3. How did a bunch of vandals take over Carthage?

        Carthage was actually destroyed and completely destroyed by the Romans before our era.
        Quote: Xlor
        4. How did Cortez, with a small detachment, capture and plunder Mexico?

        Well, firstly, the Spaniards of the early 16th century are the best warriors of that time, hardened in constant wars with the Arabs, which lasted 700 years, so the tactics and organization of the Spanish troops were polished by centuries of wars, and were several orders of magnitude better than the tactics and organization of the Aztec army ... Plus, the Spaniards had steel weapons and steel armor, and horses unprecedented for the Indians. The Aztecs simply had no idea how to deal with the cavalry, all these squares, long spears and so on to protect the infantry from cavalry, they were simply unknown. And secondly, the Spaniards had tens of thousands of allies in the form of Indian tribes who hated the Aztec occupiers, to take the same Tlashkalans.
        1. +8
          3 October 2021 08: 05
          1 years and more than 10 years. Asia Minor in ancient times is densely built up with cities
          2. China was not a unified state. Even before the Achaemenids with their clay colossus did not reach
        2. +9
          3 October 2021 08: 27
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Alexander the Great captured only the Near and Middle East, and not "almost all of Asia"

          The then Near and Middle East at that time was "almost all of Asia."

          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Carthage was actually destroyed and completely destroyed by the Romans before our era

          Nothing like this! The Vandals, having captured Carthage, took golden baths there, surrounded by charming beauties, until the Byzantines, who also took these baths, were driven out of there. Then, the Arabs drove them out of these golden baths. By the way, a good resort has survived there to this day. laughing

          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Well, first of all, the Spaniards of the early 16th century are the best warriors of that time.

          And you will try to capture some stable state with a company of soldiers. Let this state even be backward and poor. You will simply be showered with stones / hats / darts / whatever. Finally, everyone will spit at you in unison and you will drown without firing a single shot ...

          Quote: Kot_Kuzya

          Western Rome collapsed itself, as itself ... due to the weak leadership and separatist sentiments on the outskirts of the country

          So you have answered all my questions. A strong and powerful state can be captured by a handful of barbarians only if it, this most powerful state, is in complete disarray and decline ...
        3. -7
          3 October 2021 12: 06
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Alexander the Great captured only the Near and Middle East, and not "almost all of Asia",


          see this is a piece from Remezov's map Drawing map of Siberia, there is also tartary, and so

          kingdom of Gilan
          Alexander the Great reached this place and the Spratan bell left the river




          there is such a card.
        4. -2
          3 October 2021 12: 55
          Yes, here I am personally a realist
          How long can you sniff people around.
          We have only coups in the world and everywhere the Mongols are to blame. I don't want to get into other cynical things. But the traditions and community of the peoples of the world should be on the fundamental factor. When the virus enters the country with the help of trade and money, the values ​​of the people disappear and history disappears.
          In China, it turns out that the Mongols and the Huns are also to blame. The main thing is to have someone to blame the aggression on. And then went the analogy of the Roman Empire, filled and even our empire is the result of the emergence of new people.
          Macedonian even take it first inside the country on the territory of Iran there was a coup and then the Macedonian calmly came to the territory. And even Macedonia is a new formation of Greece or what? Not to mention the Phoenicians. The struggle of Baal and then themselves.
          1. -8
            3 October 2021 16: 07
            Oddly enough Cyrus and the Macedonian did not meet any Mongols on their way. Tell that the Massagets are Mongols or tell them now. It is very easy to collide the theory of the Mongols head-on with other historical facts. Macedonian met Spitman on his way. A monument was erected to him in Uzbekistan. Tell us that he was a Mongol.
            The culture of buildings in Khorezm, Bactria and Sogdiana does not have signs of Mongolian architecture. Moreover, it is argued that the Mongols did not have a written language, that is, such robots moved around the territory. It would be a shame and stupid to think like that in front of the Mongols.
            And the fact that our state is afraid to admit that we lived on the territory from modern Germany to India with the Far East is the reality of our life so that we do not offend anyone.
            1. +6
              3 October 2021 16: 34
              Quote from DiViZ
              Oddly enough Cyrus and the Macedonian did not meet any Mongols on their way. Tell that the Massagets are Mongols or tell them now. It is very easy to collide the theory of the Mongols head-on with other historical facts. Macedonian met Spitman on his way. A monument was erected to him in Uzbekistan. Tell us that he was a Mongol.
              The culture of buildings in Khorezm, Bactria and Sogdiana does not have signs of Mongolian architecture. Moreover, it is argued that the Mongols did not have a written language, that is, such robots moved around the territory. It would be a shame and stupid to think like that in front of the Mongols.
              And the fact that our state is afraid to admit that we lived on the territory from modern Germany to India with the Far East is the reality of our life so that we do not offend anyone.

              sorry, you fucking ... b?
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. The comment was deleted.
            2. +9
              3 October 2021 17: 03
              Quote from DiViZ
              Oddly enough Cyrus and the Macedonian did not meet any Mongols on their way.

              I'm afraid they did not observe the Slavs either! wink
              Ugliness!!! crying
              1. -2
                3 October 2021 17: 13
                Yes, yes, the traders were drawn to India there was a lot of delicious!
                But with the Massagets, they had only yurts! Ugliness!
                But there were Huns Huns Din Lini Mughal Scythians Eliphalins shorter than huge Huns. In short, you can figure it out.
              2. +3
                3 October 2021 17: 28
                Macedonian no Mongols. ... they did not observe the Slavs either!


                The Slavs did not observe him either. laughing



                - Mac-Mvk-Macedonian ... Who is he? Why dont know?!
              3. +1
                3 October 2021 17: 58
                But this is only from carelessness.
            3. +4
              3 October 2021 17: 04
              It is difficult to understand what is written. The main thing is that you understand this. am
              At the expense of woodpeckers, it is quite possible!
            4. +1
              4 October 2021 21: 54
              Quote from DiViZ
              we

              Who are "we?
              1. -3
                5 October 2021 10: 08
                Abaregens. To begin with, Byzantine churches need to be restored to Pereyaslavl. A thread by a needle and will follow by itself. And so delirium on delirium. A virtual and real paradox. Well, not a church on Arkaim, of course, you can put it.
                1. 0
                  13 December 2021 16: 57
                  Yes, yes, you are definitely abAregen ... Only such literate people can write such garbage ... They really did not learn to read and write, but it turns out they already lived from Germany to India ...
                  1. -1
                    13 December 2021 17: 15
                    Alyosha Popovich with kindly nikitech in the picture of 2100 after the invasion of the Chinese or Mongols, but it doesn't matter. Chinese characters are all over the head and the Mongols did not have writing. So Sun Yun is everywhere.
                    1. 0
                      13 December 2021 17: 17
                      Your writing is definitely bad ... Gyyy
    2. +20
      3 October 2021 07: 03
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      I’m wondering: how long will historians reprint nonsense about the "Mongols who conquered most of Eurasia"? How physically could the few Mongols (and they were few, since animal husbandry is one hundred times less efficient than agriculture per unit area) to seize China, Korea, Central Asian states and Russia?

      But I'm wondering when people who are completely illiterate, who are in the subject, like a pig in oranges, will stop littering the site with their stupid comments?
      1. -20
        3 October 2021 07: 39
        Quote: kalibr
        But I'm wondering when people who are completely illiterate, who are in the subject, like a pig in oranges, will stop littering the site with their stupid comments?

        The number of Mongols in Mongolia and China is now 10 million people, while the Chinese in China are 1400 million. For example, in the 13th century there were 1 million Mongols, 140 million Chinese. The question is: how could 1 million people conquer 140 million people? It is as if Estonia, with a population of 1 million people, were now conquering Russia.
        1. +13
          3 October 2021 07: 42
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Question: how
          Read more, do not count ... Literacy has not hurt anyone, including the historical one. You should master this work. There is an analysis of sources and a comparison of their importance and a lot of useful information.
          Domestic historiography of the Mongol conquest of Russia
          topic of dissertation and author's abstract on the Higher Attestation Commission of the Russian Federation 07.00.09, Doctor of Historical Sciences Mukhametov, Farit Fedorovich, 2007, Moscow
          INTRODUCTION.
          CHAPTER I. SOURCE CHARACTERISTICS.
          1.1. Classification of written sources.
          1.2. General characteristics of the sources of the Mongolian period.
          1.3. Critical analysis of the corpus of sources.
          CHAPTER 2. RUSSIAN HISTORIOGRAPHY XVIII - BEGINNING XX CENTURY ABOUT THE MONGOL CONQUEST OF RUSSIA AND ITS CONSEQUENCES.
          2.1. Russian historiography of the 1th - first half of the XNUMXth century. about the Mongol conquest of Russia and its consequences.
          2.2. Russian historiography of the Mongol conquest of Russia and its consequences, the second half of the XNUMXth - early XNUMXth centuries).
          CHAPTER 3. RUSSIAN HISTORIOGRAPHY OF THE SOVIET PERIOD ABOUT THE MONGOL CONQUEST OF RUSSIA, THE IMPORTANCE OF THE BATTLE OF KULIKOV AND THE EVENTS OF 1382.
          3.1. Russian historiography of the Soviet period about the Mongol conquest of Rus.
          3.2. Russian historiography of the Soviet period on the significance of the Battle of Kulikovo and the events of 1382
          CHAPTER 4. THE LATEST HISTORICAL RESEARCH ABOUT THE MONGOL CONQUEST OF RUSSIA AND ITS RELEASE FROM YIGA.
          4.1. The latest historical research on the Mongol conquest of Russia.
          4.2. The liberation of Russia from the Mongol yoke in the latest Russian historical literature.
          CHAPTER 5. RUSSIAN ORIENTAL HISTORIOGRAPHY OF THE XIX - EARLY XXI CENTURY ABOUT THE MONGOLSK CONQUEST OF RUSSIA AND THE GOLDEN HORDE.
          5.1. The development of Russian oriental historiography of the Mongol conquest of Russia and the Golden Horde until the XNUMXth century.
          5.2. Russian oriental historiography of the XX - early XXI century. about the Mongol conquest of Russia and the Golden Horde.
          1. -18
            3 October 2021 07: 55
            Quote: kalibr
            Read more, do not count ... Literacy has not hurt anyone, including the historical one.

            History is an imprecise science, and it should always be treated critically, and not blindly take on faith what historians say and write. I don’t believe that the Mongols conquered half of Eurasia, it’s impossible. By the way, do you believe in Xerxes' two million army and in the existence of Atlantis? After all, respected scientists wrote about them!
            1. +15
              3 October 2021 08: 45
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              I don’t believe that the Mongols conquered half of Eurasia, it’s impossible.

              You can believe in God, right? And in history, before playing the "believe-don't believe" daisy, you need to have KNOWLEDGE. You don't have it. You were shown where to find it. Read what smart people have written before you. And only then write "I believe, I do not believe." Don't make people laugh. Ignorance is not an argument!
              1. -10
                3 October 2021 10: 50
                Did you live in the 13th century and saw how the Mongols captured half of Eurasia? So you know? And so I have to BELIEVE the stories of historians?
                1. +6
                  3 October 2021 12: 46
                  Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                  And so I have to BELIEVE the stories of historians?

                  Believe in God! Read medieval historians about the Mongol invasion. Reports from papal ambassadors ... there is a lot. There is - ha - but not about your honor. You don't understand all this anyway. And you won't be able to use these sources anyway.
                  1. -9
                    3 October 2021 15: 10
                    Quote: kalibr
                    Believe in God! Read medieval historians about the Mongol invasion. Reports from papal ambassadors ... there is a lot. There is - ha - but not about your honor. You don't understand all this anyway. And you won't be able to use these sources anyway.

                    You are exactly what you BELIEVE, but do not know! Medieval historians wrote about cinema cephals and mermaids living in distant countries, and they were allegedly even seen. Is that also true? Tales of the Mongol conquest of half of Eurasia can be attributed to tales of cinephals, sirens, Amazons and Atlanteans. By the way, do you also believe about the all-powerful Jesuits who were involved in all European events? That is, do you believe that Putin interfered in the American elections, under-poisoned the Skripals, shot down a Malaysian Boeing, committed a Maidan in Ukraine, under-poisoned Navalny, killed Nemtsov, Litvinenko and Starovoitova, and now increased the price of a cube of gas to $ 1,2? But after 300 years, historians like you will say this in all seriousness!
                    1. +5
                      4 October 2021 06: 46
                      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                      you also believe about the all-powerful Jesuits

                      I do not believe. I just read their reports to dad ...
                2. +11
                  3 October 2021 14: 38
                  Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                  how the Mongols conquered half of Eurasia

                  Edward has been telling you exactly how it was for a long time. It is difficult, difficult and far from immediately.
                  Reread the author's articles on this topic again, thoughtfully and seriously. About how the Chinese kingdoms fought among themselves, how they attracted nomads to their showdowns, how they, entering into profitable alliances, and learning from their allies in military affairs, public administration, etc., solved their own problems ... And you, if just take the information already given to you in a convenient form, you will understand that nothing supernatural happened there, everything is logical and flows from one another.
                  I do not know who and when told you that the Mongols simply gathered once and conquered everyone at once.
                  You, like most individuals like you, "heard something" about the Mongols, invented all sorts of nonsense based on what you heard and refute this nonsense intensely, not even realizing that you are trying to fight exclusively with your own ignorance with the help of the same ignorance, displacing one heresy from your own head through another.
                  And the saddest thing is that there are already answers to ALL your questions about the impossibility of Mongol conquests, and the author of the article offers you one of the options to familiarize yourself with them, but the food, apparently, is not yet in the horse.
                  1. +3
                    3 October 2021 16: 36
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                    how the Mongols conquered half of Eurasia

                    Edward has been telling you exactly how it was for a long time. It is difficult, difficult and far from immediately.
                    Reread the author's articles on this topic again, thoughtfully and seriously. About how the Chinese kingdoms fought among themselves, how they attracted nomads to their showdowns, how they, entering into profitable alliances, and learning from their allies in military affairs, public administration, etc., solved their own problems ... And you, if just take the information already given to you in a convenient form, you will understand that nothing supernatural happened there, everything is logical and flows from one another.
                    I do not know who and when told you that the Mongols simply gathered once and conquered everyone at once.
                    You, like most individuals like you, "heard something" about the Mongols, invented all sorts of nonsense based on what you heard and refute this nonsense intensely, not even realizing that you are trying to fight exclusively with your own ignorance with the help of the same ignorance, displacing one heresy from your own head through another.
                    And the saddest thing is that there are already answers to ALL your questions about the impossibility of Mongol conquests, and the author of the article offers you one of the options to familiarize yourself with them, but the food, apparently, is not yet in the horse.

                    Yes, this is a brain clinic, here the Bar runs with its Alternative, and there are a lot of insane people on the site.
                    1. +2
                      4 October 2021 06: 47
                      Quote: Usher
                      Yes, this is a brain clinic, here the Bar runs with its Alternative, and there are a lot of insane people on the site.

                      Unfortunately...
                    2. 0
                      5 December 2023 10: 41
                      These are two stumps. Or one with growths....
                  2. +3
                    3 October 2021 17: 11
                    Michael!
                    I would like to remind you that Eduard, taking up this cycle, wrote that he would not write "Ph.D." in front of his name.
                  3. +2
                    3 October 2021 17: 32
                    Michael, don't, it's useless. He will drive Woland crazy, proving that there is no devil. request
            2. +7
              3 October 2021 08: 47
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              By the way, do you believe in Xerxes' two million army and in the existence of Atlantis?

              Where and in what contemporary study of Xerxes' invasion of Greece speaks of an army of two million? Where, except in Timaeus and Plato's Critique, is it said that Atlantis was? Hypotheses are put forward ... But nowhere is this confirmed.
          2. -4
            3 October 2021 09: 55
            Quote: kalibr
            Read more, don't count ..


            yes, pay and read 500 pages

            1. +4
              3 October 2021 09: 59
              Another ... found out ... a connoisseur. The abstract is READ FREE OF CHARGE. 500 p. worth the WHOLE DISSERTATION. And is this a high price to say goodbye to your own ignorance?
              1. -12
                3 October 2021 10: 04
                we already know everything about moglotarskoego, so you are ignorant, those who do not want to perceive objective reality, but are closed from it by multi-page abstracts.
                1. +6
                  3 October 2021 10: 13
                  Quote: Bar1
                  multipage abstracts.

                  Is it hard to read, your brain is boiling? This always happens when there is no appropriate education, but you want to "join" ...
                  1. -2
                    3 October 2021 10: 17
                    Quote: kalibr
                    Is it hard to read, your brain is boiling? This always happens when there is no appropriate education, but you want to "join" ...


                    it's like "The Master and Margarita"
                    -that I have not read other poems? "

                    I read Lyzlov, Karamzin, Solovyov, and these gentlemen are in Mukhametov's long list, so it’s just stupid to read for money, what is in the public domain, it’s just stupid, not in the traditions of OUR people.
                    1. +4
                      3 October 2021 12: 43
                      Quote: Bar1
                      I read Lyzlov, Karamzin, Solovyov, and these gentlemen at Mukhametov's are just in a long list

                      Then read what is on this list in addition to these names!
                2. +10
                  3 October 2021 14: 47
                  Quote: Bar1
                  we already know everything about the mighty Tartar,

                  wassat laughing
                  No words, no words ...
                  As far as I understand, did they come up with their own logic and common sense? Based on the works of Fomenko about Tartary? laughing
                  By the way, what do they say about the invasion in your reality? Was there an invasion? Cities were on fire? People died?
                  And if so, when and who committed this atrocity, and against whom?
                  In short, in a nutshell ...
                  1. -3
                    3 October 2021 16: 29
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    In short, in a nutshell ...


                    in a nutshell, it does not work, an approximately close reconstruction of the story was voiced by the St. Petersburg historian Dmitry Belousov. I will make my additions or corrections later. Fomenko and Nosovskiy did a lot of work, the same thing they do coincide with my opinion, but there are also differences.

                    while get acquainted.

                    1. +2
                      4 October 2021 06: 49
                      Quote: Bar1
                      the same thing they have in common with my opinion

                      God never offended the ignorant with self-doubt!
                    2. +1
                      13 December 2021 17: 10
                      Fomenko and Nosovsky did a lot of work, the same thing they do coincide with my opinion, but there are also differences.
                      maybe vice versa ..? you just read them and your opinion is now what you took from them ...?
                  2. +1
                    13 December 2021 17: 07
                    By the way, what do they say about the invasion in your reality? Was there an invasion? Cities were on fire? People died?
                    And if so, when and who committed this atrocity, and against whom?
                    In short, in a nutshell ...
                    they say that these are the great Scythian Russians - the inhabitants of the Great Tartaria of the Empire and the Ancient Rus, the pagans thus punished the European Rus-Christians for their betrayal of their Faith - paganism ...... BGGGGGG .... !!!
                3. +3
                  3 October 2021 16: 38
                  Quote: Bar1
                  we already know everything about moglotarskoego, so you are ignorant, those who do not want to perceive objective reality, but are closed from it by multi-page abstracts.

                  WHAT ARE YOU CARRY? You yourself are not tired of carrying BONUS. Your argument is one "you are ignorant," how do you argue your words other than verbal diarrhea and nonsense? No way. So here it is YOU who is an ignoramus. Tired already, honestly, in every article about history, Timur will come out and carry nonsense.
            2. 0
              3 October 2021 10: 03
              The Tatar historian expressed his opinion. No more.
              1. +5
                3 October 2021 10: 15
                He did not give an opinion, but considered the source base of the problem and gave its analysis in different positions. Historiography is a science, and like any science, it must be studied.
              2. +7
                3 October 2021 14: 57
                The "Tatar historian" is me, Alexander. laughing In narrow circles of neo-fascists and others poor of reason, this is my party pseudonym, along with the no less remarkable wonderful "Russophobe-trilobite". laughing
                By the way, I personally have not read this dissertation, but you, probably, should read it. Source study is just the discipline that you should take up, otherwise your skepticism in relation to written sources just rolls over. Perhaps, when faced with the opinion of even more cynical skeptics, but possessing a much larger amount of knowledge, you will somewhat correct your source study nihilism.
                1. 0
                  3 October 2021 17: 23
                  Mukhametov, Farit Fedorovich - is this your pseudonym? But in the photo you do not look like yourself. crying
                  Let's wait when it comes to our ulus!
                  Correction of my "source study nihilism" is possible, but not under the influence of "cynical skeptics with a large amount of knowledge", but directly by me and myself with the knowledge obtained.
                  I thought about your statement that I am an alternative. No, perhaps I just have a different or different view of history and it is based on the so-called. primary sources.
                  1. 0
                    13 December 2021 17: 15
                    I am an alternative worker. No, perhaps I just have a different or different view of history and it is based on the so-called. primary sources.
                    All of you are such at first reading Fomenko and Nosovsky and other such nonsense people, along the way you will see how they are being covered up for nothing, and now you say "no, I'm not an alternative" .... Like I'm not with them, I have my own ... But it is yours that surprisingly coincides with the "alternative" ... The mention of the "primary sources" is especially amusing ....
                    1. 0
                      14 December 2021 18: 23
                      Do you have something against the primary sources? Except for hee-hee and ha-ha, there is zero information from you. Above was noted Mikhail "hoz.trilobitv" with whom he is familiar personally and more than once discussed this period of history. Contact him about labeling me "alternative" or Edward. And then giggle about the primary sources. am what
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          3. ANB
            +3
            3 October 2021 23: 59
            ... Read more, don't count ...

            It is necessary to read this. Lots of boring and long books and documents.
            Lots of bukaf. And so I read the early Bushkov (he had already refused to support Fomenko, but he writes something interesting), against this background, the books of Novokhronolozhtsy and vo a la. Already an expert.
          4. 0
            4 October 2021 18: 59
            Read more, don't count ...

            Well, first of all, you are trying to rely on historical sources written several centuries later, and written by foreigners, this is about how you will now begin to write about Ivan the Terrible, but consider only relying on the oral epic.
            Well, how will the learned historical document be for you? Do not forget that the Mongols' writing appeared only in the 17th century. I tried to communicate on this topic at SibAN in Akademgorodok (Novosibirsk). After all my stupid questions, as they thought, they told me that historical documents on the territory of Tuva, Buryatia, Transbaikalia, Outer and Inner Mongolia have existed only since the 17th century, and before that there are only archaeological artifacts. By the way, if you are interested, this is not the same thing.
            1. -1
              4 October 2021 21: 51
              Quote: user
              By the way, if you are interested, this is not the same thing.

              I didn't know. Only you spoke there in Academy City, and there I lectured on my book "Knights of the East" in 1998. Students and specialists of historical departments. And ... generally approved!
              1. -1
                5 October 2021 15: 08
                Students and specialists of historical departments. And ... generally approved!


                And I communicated in the year 2015, probably something began to change, in the sense of relying on historical documents, and not the oral epic of the Mongolian people.
        2. +11
          3 October 2021 07: 48
          It's like Estonia, with a population of 1 million, conquered Russia now.

          If the Estonians acted as a single organism, then everything is possible ... As feudal squads of several dozen people, they kept thousands of peasants in obedience. The example of Ukraine, the nationalists, being in the minority, forced the majority to submit to their will. And this example of insanity is not the only one. Germany, after all, was an educated country, a bunch of idiots promised a heavenly life ... and away we go. Unity of command and discipline, shackled by a common phantom goal, work wonders.
          1. -13
            3 October 2021 08: 02
            Quote: Konnick
            The example of Ukraine, the nationalists, being in the minority, forced the majority to submit to their will

            In Ukraine, most of the population is Nazis and Russophobes. This is evidenced by the results of the presidential elections in Ukraine in 2014 and 2019, where 85% of Ukrainians voted for such outright Russophobes and Nazis like Poroshenko, Tymoshenko, Tyagnibok, Gritsenko, Yarosh, Lyazhko and Zelensky, who later joined them. Moreover, these candidates did not hide their Nazi and Russophobic views, and nevertheless the Ukrainians voted for them, therefore, they also share their Nazi and Russophobic views.
            Quote: Konnick
            Germany, after all, was an educated country, a bunch of idiots promised a heavenly life ... and away we go.

            Another myth. Even in the elections to the Reichstag in 1933, the NSDAP did not gain the majority of the votes. Hitler was appointed Chancellor by the German President Hindenburg, after his death in 1934, Hitler abolished the post of President of Germany and thus, he became the main one in the country and usurped power.
            1. +8
              3 October 2021 08: 12
              Another myth. Even in the elections to the Reichstag in 1933, the NSDAP did not gain the majority of the votes.

              Did I write something about the elections?

              In Ukraine, most of the population is Nazis and Russophobes. This is evidenced by the results of the presidential elections in Ukraine in 2014 and 2019, where 85% of Ukrainians voted for such outright Russophobes and Nazis like Poroshenko, Tymoshenko, Tyagnibok, Gritsenko, Yarosh, Lyazhko and Zelensky, who later joined them.

              Is there that 100% of the population participated in the elections? It's like we have, a handful of state employees, pensioners and jingoistic patriots have chosen the EP with the help of electronic voting.
              And the point of my comment is not in specific elections, but in the fact that a well-organized group can defeat a large crowd. So the Mongols, with their brutal discipline with clear rules of remuneration, with a well-organized command structure, could well cope with the Chinese army. They fight not by number, but by skill.
              1. -11
                3 October 2021 08: 24
                Quote: Konnick
                Is there that 100% of the population participated in the elections? It's like we have, a handful of state employees, pensioners and jingoistic patriots have chosen the EP with the help of electronic voting.

                That is, in your opinion, ALL Ukrainians who did not go to the polls are not Nazis or Russophobes as one? And the turnout in 2019 was high, 63% of Ukrainians voted, and 85% of them voted for open Nazis and Russophobes. I think that among 37% of those who did not vote, 85% were also Nazis and Russophobes.
                1. +5
                  3 October 2021 08: 34
                  That is, in your opinion, ALL Ukrainians who did not go to the polls are not Nazis or Russophobes as one? And the turnout in 2019 was high, 63% of Ukrainians voted, and 85% of them voted for open Nazis and Russophobes. I think that among 37% of those who did not vote, 85% were also Nazis and Russophobes.

                  I agree with this person's point of view

                  And yet, the topic is not about elections, but about the Mongols.
            2. +7
              3 October 2021 08: 49
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              Even in the elections to the Reichstag in 1933, the NSDAP did not gain the majority of the votes.

              But she scored RELATIVE MAJORITY! That is why she received a mandate for the post of chancellor. Neither the Socialists and Communists recruited them anymore.
        3. +5
          3 October 2021 10: 57
          "... Let's say there were 13 million Mongols in the 1th century ..." Why make assumptions when the Chinese were carefully copying their subjects, which included the Mongols. Read on.
        4. 0
          3 October 2021 15: 06
          In the second half of the 100th century, there were about XNUMX million Chinese. In XIII, respectively, less.
        5. +1
          4 October 2021 16: 07
          ..in the 13th century there were about 15 thousand Mongols in total with women .. and children ..
        6. 0
          13 December 2021 16: 59
          Only a difficult teenager can base their judgments only on numbers, and even then wrong ...
        7. 0
          13 December 2021 19: 16
          "When comparing armies, a fool counts swords and spears, and a sage counts horses and carts."
      2. +2
        3 October 2021 09: 29
        Quote: kalibr
        when people are completely illiterate, who are in the subject, like a pig in oranges, stop littering the site with their stupid comments?

        Probably when the authors stop openly lying in some cases, and very selectively cite sources in others.
        Take a pearl about "13th century Chinese sources that have come down to us." It sounds pretentious. If you completely forget the fact that the history of China was rewritten with the change of dynasties. Well, a very total cleaning of archives. Both private and highly formal. Which is quite officially recognized. And the 'ancient sources' that have come down to us are hardly much older than Pushkin's love correspondence. If older at all.
        Well, selective quoting .... Let's take the same Rashid who is hell. We admit the points where he writes about hiking. We do not notice those where he says that the Mongols are Turks. No, well, then yes, the Mongolian language can be attributed to the Turkic. Like Swahili, it can be called the southern dialect of Russian. But there won't be much faith in such a linguist. So why do historians interpret the sources so freely? If you believe in Ad Din's story about the Mongol campaigns, so believe in the fact that modern Mongols and Ad Din's are completely different peoples. And then ... Here I believe, here I do not believe. It’s strange.
        1. +4
          3 October 2021 10: 02
          Quote: Lannan Shi
          forget the fact that the history of China was rewritten with the change of dynasties. Well, a very total cleaning of archives.

          How do you know this? Defended a thesis on the source study of the countries of the East? And what is it called? I would read it with pleasure! But why do you limit yourself to only Chinese sources? And if they correlate with sources from other countries? They, too, are all rewritten and fatally cleaned up. Is that all?
          1. -2
            3 October 2021 12: 02
            Quote: kalibr
            How do you know this? Defended a thesis on the source study of the countries of the East?

            Hmm ... But what is your house made of? Brick? Concrete? Wood? How do you know that? Have you completed your dissertation in architecture? And so ... I wrote to you personally, more than once. Meliksetov. History of China. Doing. It is written in black in Russian. With the change of dynasties, the history of China was rewritten.
            Quote: kalibr
            Are you limited to only Chinese sources? And if they correlate with sources from other countries?

            Well, that's the same Rashid ad din. He wrote in Persian in black. Chingiz und company-Turks. Why do you ignore the testimony of who served these same Chingizids? And not a flusher in general.
            Let's take another type of document. That very secret legend. Where did the ancestors of Genghis come from? O-la-la. We arrived first by crossing the Tengis sea. But let's not equate it with the lake of the same name. Swim across a 40 km wide lake with a length of 70? Masochism in its most acute form. Now open the globe of eurasia. And try to explain. On the shores of some seas, and even on the opposite shores of Mongolia, a century that way in 10m, plus or minus, the Mongol tribes hung out.
            And mind you. I don't even dispute the veracity of the type of documents. Just explain how all this fantasy relates to the Mongols.
            And so ... The Mongol bones on the battlefields could serve as a tough and indisputable proof of the Mongol conquest. 200 years of war, hundreds of burned cities and many thousands of villages. Where are at least 2-3 Mongolian skulls in Russia? Well, or at least skeletons of typical Mongolian nags. There is not? From then this and that. Immortal Nazguls came to Europe. On ghostly horses. And as the light elf dimiel donskiel threw them down, they were transported to the kerulen, in which they were drowned. Yes
            1. +8
              3 October 2021 15: 42
              Oh, who has cut through here again ... Our lover of Mongolian floods with the next thoughts in style
              I have curlers in my head
              And do not count on more

              Hello dear Shi.
              Regarding rewriting the history of China, what is it? They were there for the period of the beginning of the Mongol conquests, there were five of them - count it yourself at your leisure and, by the way, each had its own chronicle. And they, by the way, were by no means friends with each other, so they would hardly have been able to agree on how exactly to rewrite history once again. The sources, however, generally agree, sometimes contradicting, sometimes complementing each other.
              Or maybe let's talk about China's neighbors? There, too, after all, the chronicles were written ... All were rewritten in the XNUMXth century. by the hands of the British? We already discussed it, sort of like ... And still rewritten by the British? Then why is it in the interests of the Chinese or the Mongols, and not in the interests of the British themselves?
              Where is your logic, unforgettable?
              Where did you, swallow at Rashid-ad-Din, meet the word "Turki"? Have you read at least a little of this author? Or, like in that joke about Caruso's singing - it is not clear that everyone admires him so much - stutters, bursts, no hearing, no voice. How is it known? Yes, a neighbor went to a concert and sang to me yesterday. Or maybe you mastered the "Secret Legend"? About the Tengiz Sea, where does the firewood come from? Where is it written there? And how is it written? Let's take it in more detail, otherwise it turns out inconvenient - you fantasize, and here we have to scientifically refute your fantasies.
              And I'll say this - Rashid-ad-Din calls the Mongols exclusively Mongols, not Turks, and the ancestors of Genghis Khan, according to the "Secret Legend", came from the banks of Onon and Kerulen, because of the Iron Mountain. Refute, you are our clever girl. With quotes and links.
              Yes, and about the Mongolian bones.
              Even despite the fact that not so many Mongols actually came to Russia, their funeral rite provided for the complete concealment of the traces of burials and that the victors on the battlefield, as a rule, carefully collected their comrades, having for this, in contrast from the vanquished, all the possibilities, the bones of the Mongols are still there. Those were found in Kiev, in the Raikovets settlement, in a burial in the Voronezh region (Olen-Kolodez) and elsewhere, I don't remember. And as for the Mongol arrows and their other equipment, found only among them, more than enough has been found to say - they came, fought, won.
              So twist your curlers and march for books, my sun is not setting. Run! laughing
              1. -2
                3 October 2021 16: 15
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Where did you, swallow at Rashid-ad-Din, meet the word "Turki"?

                No, well, I understand that the Mongolophile and the illiterate are synonyms, but there should be a limit to everything? Not? Not this way?
                Glad. Book one, section two. Name.
                REGARDING THOSE TURKISH TRIBES 309, WHICH CURRENTLY CALLED MONGOLS,

                All in all, in the first two sections, the word Türki occurs 20 times. I am simply too lazy to count further. Would you like that. Decency for. At least with one eye they would look at what you are trying to reason about. Yes
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                And I will say this - Rashid-ad-Din calls the Mongols exclusively Mongols, not Turks,

                laughing
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                About the Tengiz Sea, where did the firewood come from? Where is it written there?

                I. PEDIGREE AND CHILDHOOD TEMUJIN (CHINGIS)
                § 1. The ancestor of Genghis Khan was Borte-Chino, who was born by the will of the Highest Heaven. His wife was Goa-Maral. They came across the Tengis

                Right at the very beginning it is said. laughing
                And the funeral rites of the Mongols, invented by eyewitnesses .... Maybe we will omit, eh? Really, after all, an evening of satire and humor. To "hide the grave", herds are chased over it. Yeah, reminiscent of hide-and-seek, played by a three-year-old. He covered his head with a pillow - he hid. I do not know what the "eyewitnesses" smoked or swallowed, but the thing is clearly overbearing. Yes
                1. +2
                  3 October 2021 19: 19
                  I warned you - you need to remove the curlers. laughing
                  The ancestor of Genghis Khan was Borte-Chino, who was born by the will of the Highest Sky. His wife was Goa-Maral. They came by crossing the Tengis (inland sea). They roamed at the headwaters of the Onon River, on Burkhan-khal-dun, and their descendant was Bata-Chigan.

                  Think.
                  Although, what am I talking about? Curlers ...
                  Rashid ad-Din:
                  REGARDING THOSE TURKISH Tribes, WHICH ARE CALLED MONGOLS AT THE PRESENT TIME, BUT IN ANCIENT TIMES, EACH OF THESE Tribes, SEPARATELY, WAS A SPECIAL NAME AND NAME; EVERYONE HAD A CHIEF AND EMIR; FROM EVERYONE, BRANCHES AND TRIBES, A KIND OF PEOPLES: JALAIRS, OIRATS, TATARS AND OTHERS, HOW IT WILL BE SHOWN IN DETAIL IN THIS CHAPTER

                  Can you even read the title of the chapter to the end? I'm not even talking about the content of this chapter.
                  Boring with you. You are stupid and ignorant, persistent in stupidity, and consistent in ignorance. I don’t want to smear you with a thin layer on the walls of the public restroom, as in our last "meeting", laziness, although in this case I see how it can be done. Consider that you bounced today. laughing
                  1. -2
                    3 October 2021 20: 09
                    So. Let's turn it back.
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    About the Tengiz Sea, where did the firewood come from? Where is it written there?

                    Did you manage to realize that the Tengiz sea is still from the secret legend? Not bad already. Now open the map and try to look for a Mongol on the shores of the Caspian Sea. Opposite to Mongolia. So that everything is strictly according to the truly truthful fantasy about moogals. However, good luck. Yes
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    Can you even read the title of the chapter to the end?

                    Moreover. I even revealed to you the secret that ad-Din not only has the word Türks, but also comes across as often. And that the Mongols of ad-Din, that's horror, it turns out that they were the same Türks as the Tatars. unlike modern Mongols. What a surprise, for a great historian.
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    Where did you, swallow at Rashid-ad-Din, meet the word "Turki"? Have you read at least a little of this author?

                    lol good
                    Learn materiel paw. And it is better for books, not toilets. Yes
                    1. +2
                      3 October 2021 21: 59
                      Quote: Lannan Shi
                      Now open the map and try to look for a Mongol on the shores of the Caspian Sea.

                      Why is this frightened? Have you looked at the map - how much from the Caspian Sea to the headwaters of the Onon? The "Chingiz Inland Sea" can be anything, any body of water in this region. Is there any evidence that this is the Caspian Sea? Only in your wet fantasies. laughing
                      Kalmyks now live on the western coast of the Caspian - the Mongols, as they are - but they came there in the XNUMXth century, which is documented by many sources, and came from the east.
                      Quote: Lannan Shi
                      to go nuts how often.

                      In the comments to the official publication, written in our time.
                      Do you know when Rashid ad-Din lived and worked? And when did the Mongol conquests take place? Do not know? Well, google it, they'll tell you. And there, you see, it will finally come to light that the "Turkic tribes, which we call Mongols" are not at all the Mongols of the beginning of the XNUMXth century, but the peoples they conquered are indeed Turks.
                      And, by the way, the "Turks" in the writings of Rashid ad-Din are simply "difficulties in translation". Again, ask how he actually called them ... surprises await you ... laughing
                      Study, read books, otherwise, I'm afraid, the advice of your curlers will not bring you to any good. hi
                      For today I say goodbye, do not excuse me. After all, you are not the kind of interlocutor with whom I can communicate with pleasure in the evening. Goodbye, stupid and ignorant person. hi
                      1. 0
                        4 October 2021 23: 31
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        Why is this frightened? Have you looked at the map - how much is from the Caspian to the upper reaches of the Onon?

                        AND? There you have decrepit ruins like a carpini, by the standards of our time, looking closely at a wooden mac, but for the 13th ... Standing with all four bones in the grave, they fly along the route Italy-Mongolia-Italy, like a regular Boeing. Gangs of savages, although the size of a different army of the Red Army during the Second World War, but without a wagon train, medicine and other things, scamper from Korea to the Adriatic, scoring on nonsense like losses in general and sanitary losses in particular, and logistics with other things. And here is the children's distance from the Caspian to Mongolia.
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        The Chingiz Inland Sea "can be anything, any body of water in this region.

                        Laponka ... In a non-polite fable it is clearly said - swimming. The dimensions of the same real Tengiz are 70 km by 40. It is a maximum of a day to go around it, even on the lousiest nag. Build means for the ferry - at least a couple of weeks. Subject to the availability of craftsmen and material. Wait for the regular ferry ... At least until the second coming. And the same parsley with any body of water in Asia. Do you want to say that the most truthful secret legend in the world lies already in the very first sentence? lol So look for the ancestors of the Mongols, among the peoples of the Caucasus. Yes
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        In the comments to the official publication, written in our time.

                        Agas, and in them too. Here in the first chapter 11 times in the text itself, 14 times in the commas. Can you already tense up, and read at least 1 page of ad-din?
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        "Turkic tribes, which we call Mongols" are not at all the Mongols of the beginning of the XIII century,

                        section 2.
                        in ancient times the Mongols were [only] one tribe out of the totality of the Turkic steppe tribes.

                        does not suit Ad-Din's opinion? Oh trouble, trouble, trouble. One of the most significant sources on the Mongols. lol
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        And, by the way, the "Turks" in the writings of Rashid ad-Din are simply "difficulties in translation".

                        Aaaaa ... Well, yes. Again, grenades of the wrong system got caught .... Well, okay. So be it. Let ad-din called Mongols not Turks. Then the opening comes up, pulling on the Nobel Prize. It turns out that the Tatars are also not Turks.
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        Again, ask how he actually called them ... surprises await you ...

                        Yes, even felt boots or dumplings, he called them. That's the tenth thing. The main thing is that the Mongol ad-Din includes unambiguously Turkic peoples among the peoples. And either ad-Din Mongols are Turks, or a bunch of tribes and peoples, unambiguously Turkic, are not Turks. And the third is not given. Alas and ah.
                    2. 0
                      4 October 2021 16: 36
                      ..there is a book * march of the great special forces of Genghis Khan * author Sergey Leksutov. There is ..
              2. -1
                3 October 2021 17: 33
                In addition to answering you Shi - historians mention another burial rite. Like the birds left the dead at the top of the hills (mountains) and ate everything laughing
                What do you think a fork-type arrow is 100% Mongolian?
                And if I drive a Japanese car assembled in England, am I Japanese or English?
                1. +2
                  3 October 2021 19: 30
                  Quote: ee2100
                  left the dead at the top of the hills

                  During the war? On a foreign land?
                  Quote: ee2100
                  I drive a Japanese car assembled in England am I Japanese or English?

                  Alexander, you at least do not be foolish, please.
                  This is the basics of archeology. Or am I really missing something and you need to clarify absolutely basic things?
                  1. -1
                    3 October 2021 19: 37
                    You can try it! Leaving the dead on the peaks is the same story as about herds of horses! laughing
                    About the skull of the Mongolian species found near Kiev, this is somehow not very serious. Moreover, he was alone there. The genetic analysis was definitely not done.
                    I was not interested in Ryazan.
                    Let's wait for the continuation from Edward and arrange a chopper on our field. OK?
                    1. +2
                      3 October 2021 19: 55
                      How archaeologists process the finds is a little in my article about the Turov sword. In short, they are looking for where such items were located, counting in what quantity, comparing, etc.
                      If arrows of a certain type were found on the territory of Mongolia in the layers of the XI-XII centuries, and then in the layers of the XIII century. found on the territory of Russia, and in fires and among corpses ... The conclusion suggests itself. One skull was found in Kiev. But this does not mean that he was there and there was only one. More of them were found in the Raikovets settlement. There are also many in the burial ground in the Voronezh region.
                      So we had Mongols, there were ...
                      1. -2
                        3 October 2021 20: 12
                        M. b. and we had Mongols, but not in the number that the office of history is trying to "vpendyur" us. As the saying goes, "singular in sight"
                        I know about arrows, but there are not many of them "Mongolian type".
                        I am not against the so-called. yoke, I am against the word "Mongolian" They were not here from the word at all!
                      2. +1
                        3 October 2021 21: 36
                        Were
                        Mongols were. And it is far from being isolated, although not as much as one might think based on the term "Tatar-Mongol yoke".
                        The very concept of "yoke" has long been considered armchair, artificial. Instead, the scientific use of the "vassalage period".
                        This, however, does not negate the fact that Russia was conquered by the Mongol Empire. Conquered, subordinated and for three hundred years was a vassal of this empire and its heir - the Golden Horde.
                      3. 0
                        4 October 2021 07: 40
                        Where is the word "Mongol" in the annals? Personally, I have not met. Only Tatars, well, and also different epithets
                      4. +2
                        4 October 2021 07: 47
                        There are, for example, "Mungal steppes".
                      5. 0
                        4 October 2021 09: 04
                        Did not met
        2. -1
          3 October 2021 10: 05
          Quote: Lannan Shi
          I believe here, I don’t believe here.

          Is it you for me? Did I write "I believe" somewhere?
        3. -1
          3 October 2021 10: 20
          I didn't want to interfere, but VOSH, comparing everyone present here with pigs, went too far. I agree with you "here we read, but here we do not read" "this is true, but this is a literary device of the chronicler" this is approximately how the historians argue.
          We must pay tribute to the author that he undertook to highlight such a difficult topic as the arrival of the Mongols. Until the end of the 1240th century, no one had heard of them, but the manuscript "The Secret Legend. The Mongolian Chronicle of XNUMX titled Mongol-un niruca" appeared (c) copy from copy in Chinese, translated from Mongolian!?!? As you know, the Mongols used the Uyghur because they did not have their own written language. And now the Mongols have taken over half the world!
          1. +1
            3 October 2021 12: 40
            Quote: ee2100
            comparing everyone here with pigs

            Don't take it personally. This is definitely not about you!
        4. 0
          3 October 2021 16: 40
          Quote: Lannan Shi
          Quote: kalibr
          when people are completely illiterate, who are in the subject, like a pig in oranges, stop littering the site with their stupid comments?

          Probably when the authors stop openly lying in some cases, and very selectively cite sources in others.
          Take a pearl about "13th century Chinese sources that have come down to us." It sounds pretentious. If you completely forget the fact that the history of China was rewritten with the change of dynasties. Well, a very total cleaning of archives. Both private and highly formal. Which is quite officially recognized. And the 'ancient sources' that have come down to us are hardly much older than Pushkin's love correspondence. If older at all.
          Well, selective quoting .... Let's take the same Rashid who is hell. We admit the points where he writes about hiking. We do not notice those where he says that the Mongols are Turks. No, well, then yes, the Mongolian language can be attributed to the Turkic. Like Swahili, it can be called the southern dialect of Russian. But there won't be much faith in such a linguist. So why do historians interpret the sources so freely? If you believe in Ad Din's story about the Mongol campaigns, so believe in the fact that modern Mongols and Ad Din's are completely different peoples. And then ... Here I believe, here I do not believe. It’s strange.

          another one got out sick. Because of these, I don't even want to go to the site, they carry such wild nonsense with a serious face.
      3. +3
        3 October 2021 10: 48
        who are in the subject like a pig in oranges
        Never, Mr. Shpakovsky, because on that VO keeps. Do you know how many commentators who have not been to England told me how awful it is to live here?
        1. -2
          3 October 2021 10: 52
          Euronews constantly broadcasts that the gas station has run out of fuel and the store shelves are empty. I hope they're not lying? laughing
          1. 0
            3 October 2021 11: 03
            store shelves are empty.
            They lie 300 percent. Nothing came to an end, although London is supplied "from the wheels" - the warehouses are all outside London and all deliveries are daily. Even toilet paper is plentiful - there is also a Christmas scent laughing How to sniff it is another question.
            the fuel at the filling station ran out
            At some gas stations there are smart people Yes trying to stock up on gasoline, as a result, the demand has significantly exceeded the normal supply and normal volumes of deliveries. Refineries did not reduce production volumes - Britain is steadily producing oil (not from its own bowels, however). As a result, the same effect of toilet paper came out - you need to take it, because it is not there and you need to take it. Delivery is quite well covered by the carriers working extra time - the drivers of fuel trucks have always been a "labor aristocracy" here and in the EU, for the most part, after Brexit, they did not move there, they have nothing to do there.
            And what, in the Russian Federation they show total hunger in the UK?
            1. 0
              3 October 2021 11: 09
              The Russian Federation is dying out, there is already nothing and heaps of corpses under the fences. Covid squinted.
              1. -1
                3 October 2021 11: 13
                In the Baltic states it is even worse - the fences have collapsed. Not only everyone survived to death from covid Yes
                1. -1
                  3 October 2021 11: 20
                  God bless them with fences, the main thing is that Belarus and the Russian Federation are not attacked
                  1. 0
                    3 October 2021 11: 23
                    Well, yes. Otherwise, they will attack and write out a residence permit for everyone. What a loss on some fountain pens.
                    1. +1
                      3 October 2021 11: 27
                      And the fountain pens are from China! Damn China will rise again
                      1. -2
                        3 October 2021 11: 33
                        You need to buy BICs - they are made in France, or Stabilo - a chance to run into Malaysian 1 out of 3 (they are made in the Czech Republic and Germany)
                      2. -1
                        3 October 2021 11: 49
                        What deep knowledge! drinks on the part of the production of fountain pens!
                        It is necessary to take this into account when making guests
                      3. -1
                        3 October 2021 11: 52
                        Contrary to popular belief, quite a lot is produced in Europe.
                      4. +1
                        3 October 2021 11: 54
                        Who would doubt that! But he is such a stereotype of thinking.
                      5. +3
                        3 October 2021 13: 17
                        By the way, BIC lighters, now many times more reliable than the vaunted Cricet
                      6. +1
                        3 October 2021 13: 31
                        Only zippo! Smelly (gasoline, because now there are gas and electric (for LGBT wassat ) earbuds).
                      7. +2
                        3 October 2021 13: 35
                        Only zippo!
                        I gave to my eldest son, a few years ago
                      8. +1
                        3 October 2021 13: 40
                        My wife gave it to me. And a replacement (after a binge and loss) had to be ordered in Finland - I couldn't find another like this anywhere else. Even in the States (from there, you can order from the UK through a dealer directly from the factory). And I found my first one at the factory - after moving with a loader, she worked perfectly.
                      9. +4
                        3 October 2021 13: 54
                        after drinking and losing
                        Vooot! And I missed a good cigarette case in Rhodes crying
                      10. +1
                        3 October 2021 17: 35
                        Hello Anton!
                        Didn't find it! drinks
                      11. +2
                        3 October 2021 17: 42
                        Hello Alexander!
                        Not otherwise the cunning Greeks backed down!
                      12. -1
                        3 October 2021 18: 12
                        My friend, in 1980 bought a Ronson lighter for 35 rubles, which is practically a scholarship. Ponty have no boundaries!
                      13. +2
                        3 October 2021 18: 31
                        Given the year, your buddy bought at a dumping cost.
                      14. 0
                        3 October 2021 18: 33
                        The jeans were 80-100 rubles, I don't think it's cheap drinks
                      15. +3
                        3 October 2021 18: 59
                        For 100 rubles, jeans were sewn on Petrogradka, I personally knew such a former "tsekhovik". The original pants cost from three hundred rubles.
                      16. 0
                        3 October 2021 19: 31
                        Anton, don't argue. There were no such 300 prices in Leningrad. At the shop workers in 1980 Max. 70. My old friend sewed and he did well. I sewed the first ones according to my own Lee. Ld port city and plus the Finns. On the gallery up to max 130. Women with reduced social responsibility took up to 100 rubles or jeans from the Finns. 35 rubles for Ronson it was cool. Matches 1 kopeck.
                      17. +1
                        3 October 2021 19: 39
                        Why would I argue? I didn’t find "that heroic time" like you? Perhaps my information is just the "wet dreams" of an elderly blacksmith ...
                      18. 0
                        3 October 2021 20: 13
                        Well, that's coznensus with you, otherwise Mikhail is arguing!
                      19. 0
                        3 October 2021 20: 18
                        What is Mikhail arguing about?
                      20. +1
                        3 October 2021 20: 23
                        From the principle, like we are no one here and no way to call us. In short, the old shpakovm song - only historians or persons who sympathize with them can understand history.
                        And we, as VOSH wrote, "have nothing to do in a kalash row with a pig's snout"
                        Somehow Anton!
                      21. +2
                        3 October 2021 20: 38
                        Well no! Shpakovsky recognizes my primacy in the analysis of the finances of the Middle Ages
                      22. +1
                        3 October 2021 20: 39
                        Wow! Flooded! Write your doctoral, or better, a professorial dissertation! Shpak will help
                      23. +2
                        3 October 2021 20: 43
                        Sasha! Have you seen my secondary education certificate? Today they will take him to college by "pull"!
                      24. 0
                        3 October 2021 20: 53
                        How much is it? In USD
                      25. +1
                        3 October 2021 21: 03
                        2000-3000 to agree on a "specialty"
                      26. +3
                        4 October 2021 07: 03
                        Quote: ee2100
                        and a professor's thesis is better!

                        Don't make people laugh. There are no professorial dissertations.
                      27. +4
                        4 October 2021 07: 02
                        I bought jeans in Penza from my friends farts for 250 rubles. branded from the States and 180 p. corduroy of the same firms. Time 1977-82
                      28. +1
                        3 October 2021 18: 09
                        To open the Lost and Found Bureau, more often you will have to walk along the same paths.
                      29. +1
                        3 October 2021 18: 19
                        Fruitful thought
            2. +3
              3 October 2021 17: 16
              Just an example. Sports.ru website.


              Good evening! hi
              1. +2
                3 October 2021 17: 19
                Good evening! There is hunger here! Putin came in stew tongue !
                1. +5
                  3 October 2021 17: 22
                  Well, my God! Propaganda is propaganda. Not today invented, not tomorrow will be canceled. belay
                  Another thing surprised me. The owner of the site is a certain Dud. Quite an unpleasant media figure / in my opinion /, with generally understandable views. So on other sports resources, they did not really comment on this.
                  1. +2
                    3 October 2021 17: 52
                    This is a very specific sample. not enough umkov commentators. I have to disappoint you - there is no collapse in England. Animals New Englishmen are afraid of being left without their social and credit status, yes. There are NO problems in stores.
                    1. +2
                      3 October 2021 20: 47
                      "disappoint".
                      What kind of disappointment are I talking about? Why would I worry about the life of British taxpayers? Just gave an example, like on Sports.ru. this topic was covered. No more.
                  2. 0
                    3 October 2021 23: 24
                    The owner of the site is a certain-Dud

                    Isn't that the bum that Klim Zhukov and Tubus get kicked from time to time? And they kick it right, if that is.
                    1. +2
                      4 October 2021 06: 52
                      Yes, you are not mistaken, that's him. For the films about Kalym and Beslan. Well, in little detail. But I must admit that his sports site is very good. I don’t know, maybe the team of creators picked up a professional one. But the site is interesting.
                      1. 0
                        4 October 2021 08: 04
                        Apparently, he has government funding, and with these funds he is recruiting a team. It is unlikely that he does what he does - too stupid, like a felt boot and straight, like an intestine.
                      2. +2
                        4 October 2021 08: 19
                        Good morning!
                        Ha ha ha ha! laughingYes, judging by "Vdud" it is very visible. Not once an interviewer. hi
                2. +5
                  3 October 2021 17: 46
                  "Russian! Don't refuel on the Shell! Leave a couple of liters to your British brother on the steering wheel!"
                  1. 0
                    3 October 2021 17: 54
                    Maybe he'll have enough laughing ! And its engine will not grunt sad !
                    1. +5
                      3 October 2021 17: 58
                      Well, in Russia, Bentley engines do not quack.
                      1. 0
                        3 October 2021 18: 10
                        Now maybe not. Fill with your stove diesel - Gklasse will also die. In Latvia, we are downright Russophobes Yes - always took Neste.
                      2. +4
                        3 October 2021 18: 22
                        In Latvia, we are downright Russophobes yes - we have always taken Neste.
                        Europeans, what to take from you ...
                        For your information, all Nestle filling stations in Russia were bought by Tatneft
                        Is this not an onslaught of nomads to Europe? laughing
                      3. 0
                        3 October 2021 18: 36
                        Now they will take on another. Squeeze together - small countries have always gone off scale their "consumerism". Bad buy ....
                      4. +2
                        3 October 2021 19: 07
                        Buying gasoline for future use is always a bad buy. Nobody canceled the change in the "octane number" ...
                      5. 0
                        3 October 2021 19: 14
                        There is one octane (like 98) Are there 2 varieties of Petrol or diesel at gas stations?
                      6. +2
                        3 October 2021 19: 22
                        The octane number cannot be the same for gasoline and diesel fuel
                3. +5
                  3 October 2021 18: 15
                  Today my wife was chatting with a friend, she moved to London, for £ 75 they bought groceries, not in the cheapest store, they ate in two houses.
                  We need the stew, we will send it.
                  1. -1
                    3 October 2021 18: 48
                    Tushnyak has already been obtained, we need a drink! Yes, and smokes on trifles ... Again, tea Yes
                    Yes, and a dozen tanks will not hurt
                    1. +3
                      3 October 2021 18: 49
                      Long tea?
                      1. -1
                        3 October 2021 19: 10
                        Long tea?
                        A turkey And then a good poison will not cook. (Otherwise a good Indian chefir will not work wassat )
                      2. +4
                        3 October 2021 19: 32
                        Test! Although never when did the chifir understand
                      3. +1
                        3 October 2021 19: 37
                        never when the chifir understood
                        The buzz of prisoners and mercenaries. I didn't go to university either. But then ... Although you need to be able to ...
                      4. +1
                        3 October 2021 20: 19
                        Not in the horse feed, as well as with grass. I tried, in my youth - "zero" !! We were sitting on a bench smoking weed, and then one "authority" says "don't insert" I - "yes" and he "means it's not yours, drink better than vodka"
        2. +1
          3 October 2021 12: 31
          Quote: Bolt Cutter
          Do you know how many commentators who have not been to England told me how awful it is to live here?

          I noticed!
          1. +3
            3 October 2021 12: 36
            The funniest one is the question about the cost of health insurance. When I explain that those who live in the country legally can count on the entire British healthcare system (with subsidized medicines) for free, they simply refuse to believe me wassat But with questions of faith, not to me.
    3. -3
      3 October 2021 07: 08
      I agree about delirium. Technologically superior to all civilizations, the Mongol race first conquered everything, and then disappeared, leaving no cities or written evidence. And comrade Nevsky generally sent children to the Horde for training. And one more question. And where did the loot of the loot go?
      1. +8
        3 October 2021 07: 34
        Quote: mihalych
        conquered everything,

        Assyria also conquered "everyone", and then nothing remained of it. I had to dig a lot ... But it was not a nomadic empire. In addition, the cities remained, and the written language ... You need to read more. And read first, write later!
        1. +1
          3 October 2021 09: 41
          Much remains of the Assyrians. Even writing. And from the Mongols? Where in Russia is there at least one reminder that it was under the yoke for 300 years? In your opinion, the Mongols did nothing but "travel" to different countries. Nothing was left of them. Not in Russia, not in Europe, not in Asia. Some strange people.
          1. +3
            3 October 2021 10: 06
            Quote: mihalych
            Where in Russia is there at least one reminder that it was under the yoke for 300 years?

            PSRL
            1. -2
              3 October 2021 10: 15
              Paper endures everything. Is there any material evidence?
              1. +3
                3 October 2021 12: 27
                Quote: mihalych
                Is there any material evidence?

                You asked for mentions, didn't you? Now asking for real data? You can't be so inconsistent. Well, well, be it your way. Open the Soviet edition of 1954 "In the footsteps of ancient cultures" and it describes in detail all the finds of archaeologists made by our scientists in the eastern territories of the USSR by that time. And Mongolian, and Sogdian, and Khakass - all sorts ... And what are the photos of burial masks with Mongoloid features - shine! And ... even higher, the cover of an interesting monograph ... There is also a more modern work:
                There are a lot of photos of finds. It is indicated where they are from. And there is about the Mongols ...
              2. +3
                3 October 2021 16: 44
                Quote: mihalych
                Paper endures everything. Is there any material evidence?

                CERTAINLY!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT ARE YOU HANGING??????????? There are thousands of this evidence! Just chronicles of different peoples. At least! Everyone in the world decided to deceive the naive Michael, the Japanese rewrote history, Koreans, Afghanistan, Iran, even the Pope did not know that he was participating in a conspiracy against Michael who does not believe. He thinks that all are fools, but he is smart.
          2. +2
            3 October 2021 10: 08
            Quote: mihalych
            Nothing was left of them. Not in Russia, not in Europe, not in Asia.

            Write you what is left? Which information do you trust more: the USSR or modern ones?
            1. 0
              3 October 2021 10: 34
              Quote: kalibr
              Write you what is left? Which information do you trust more: the USSR or modern ones?


              why does Rashid Addin in the Leningrad edition have no pictures that local historians give us here, what sources does the same Wikipedia refer to, which leads these narrow-eyed warriors?
              1. +5
                3 October 2021 12: 14
                Because the PRICE WITH PICTURES INCREASES SEVERAL TIMES. And the PICTURES in the publications that are in the British Library. And copying them is WORTHY MONEY. And nafig spend them on a book that NOBODY WILL BUY FOR SUCH PRICE! Climb BAR, to the website of the German publishing house Lambert and see how much my books cost there in Germany. And buy at least one ...
                1. 0
                  3 October 2021 12: 26
                  Quote: kalibr
                  Because the PRICE WITH PICTURES INCREASES SEVERAL TIMES.


                  in 1939-46, at the time of the release of the first edition of the Chronicles, the Angles and I were still allies and to refuse such a trifle as providing us with a facsimile from their sources could not cause obstacles, this is not now. that this is "the most complete edition of all the work of Rashid Ad Din"
                  As it is hard to believe that our authors took and missed such gorgeous illustrations, this is not a scientific approach.
                  But here's what these "historical" illustrations began to emerge in our times with reference to some Western sources, this is already suspicious, do not they lie to us?
                  1. 0
                    4 October 2021 07: 13
                    Quote: Bar1
                    how to provide us with facsimiles from their sources could not cause obstacles, it is not now

                    Learn to read what they write to you! The British would not mind. But it's expensive! Clear? Expensive. Expensive to make, but even more expensive to reproduce! The cost of books would be very high. And who would buy such expensive books in the war-torn USSR? And scientists, and without pictures, everything is clear. Are there problems with sources? Go to the British Library website - you will find everything there. And again, why should they lie to you? Truthfulness among scientists is capital. They are not scattered about. Lied to the Russians - fi, as it goes, lie to the Russians, you will lie to your own. And that's all, you ruined your career.
                    1. 0
                      4 October 2021 11: 48
                      Quote: kalibr
                      But it's expensive!


                      This is expensive for you. During the war and later, while the Angles remained allies to us, they DID NOT REFUSE to transfer some technology to us, for example, a jet engine, and in return we transferred technology to them, such as a German magnetic torpedo.
                      It was all FREE.
                      So don't judge from your bell tower.
                      Quote: kalibr
                      And scientists, and without pictures, everything is clear.


                      clear to them.
                      Then why the images of Genghis Khan and Chingizids in the book of Marco Polo, who were clearly Caucasians, suddenly became Mongoloid in the book of Rashid ad Din of this English version?

                      Quote: kalibr
                      And again, why should they lie to you? Truthfulness among scientists is capital

                      You once said that, like, if they let themselves be fooled, then they should do it. This is your morality and the morality of your social circle. And for such a lie in your circles, no one will condemn such falsifiers.
                      So you can not mislead me, it doesn’t work for me.

                      according to the book of Belorybkin, you will find the dating methods to which you finally referred? This is the main question.
                      1. 0
                        4 October 2021 15: 36
                        Stupid, Timur, is it possible? The cost of a book with color pictures of this quality was expensive for the USSR. Outrageous! You open the academic publications of those years, for example, Mavrodin "Kievan Rus", "Kievan Rus and the nomads." There are no illustrations at all. Books of RAS Kirpichnikov ... only b / w drawings. They are cheap. And the price of the book "In the Footsteps of Ancient Cultures" in 1954 (rare colored inserts appeared there) - a three-volume edition - 12.50 kopecks. one volume. My grandmother had a pension of 28 rubles. The salary of a primary school teacher is 80. And a publication of such a level and with such printing can not be bought at all. I told you: go to the Lambert website (Germany) and see how much my books cost abroad. And they are without pictures! In the book "Of everything at hand" (1987), only black and white drawings. And I offered color photos, Answer: EXPENSIVE. So it's not my morality, but our post-war difficulties. Why don't you contact Belorybkin yourself and find out everything directly from him? Don't you know how to use the Internet again? Learn!
                      2. +1
                        4 October 2021 19: 45
                        you behave yourself, otherwise I can also appreciate your "knightly" creativity as sucks for local cats. what to take from the author?

                        Don't you understand that at the STATE level no one counts kopecks, especially when it comes to restoring our past?
                        In addition, let this book be worth, like the Victory of those years, distribute that circulation to libraries and let scientific works be appreciated by the public, and not hide the letter separately, but the pictures separately, which does not allow us to fully appreciate the past.

                        As for the museum exposition in your city and the work of Belorybkin, you were the first to give an example of this type of "Mongol" battle, but when I started asking specific questions about dating, then straight into the bushes. Is this your "scientific" approach?
                      3. -2
                        4 October 2021 21: 41
                        I have no habit of serving fools and ignoramuses unknown to me. It's enough that I, condescending to their mental impotence, indicate the sources of information. Do you need information from Belorybkin? I don't. Here you are with him and contact. Going towards your intellectual squalor, I will tell you that he works at PSU and his email address is listed on the website of this university. You can find, write and ask. I say, I'm interested ... Maybe he will enlighten you. The proverb says that fools are lucky ...
                        Quote: Bar1
                        at the STATE level, no one counts kopecks, especially when it comes to restoring our past?
                        In fact, it was the penny that was considered. It's easy to check. Open the books indicated to you and make sure: there are no color illustrations in them. From the word at all! But in the same book by Mavrodin there could be at least color illustrations from the paintings of Vasnetsov, Surikov ... But no. Expensive.
                      4. -2
                        4 October 2021 21: 43
                        Quote: Bar1
                        appreciate your "knightly" creativity

                        The opinion of a round ignoramus is not even worth a spit ...
                      5. -1
                        4 October 2021 21: 46
                        Quote: Bar1
                        In addition, let this book be worth, like the Victory of those years, distribute that circulation to libraries and let scientific works be appreciated by the public, and not hide the letter separately, but the pictures separately, which does not allow us to fully appreciate the past.

                        Write to the Russian Academy of Sciences and offer to publish a facsimile British edition of the history of Rashid ad-Din translated into Russian. They will listen to you!
                      6. 0
                        4 October 2021 17: 27
                        Quote: Bar1
                        You once said that, like, if they let themselves be fooled, then they should do it. This is your morality and the morality of your social circle. And for such a lie in your circles, no one will condemn such falsifiers.

                        In England there are no separate books for the Russians and separately for the British ... To deceive ignoramuses and idiots is a sacred matter, it is possible and necessary, the whole policy is based on this. But ... politics! Not a historical science!
                      7. -2
                        4 October 2021 21: 56
                        Quote: kalibr
                        But ... politics! Not a historical science!

                        Since when did history become a science? Maybe you also consider astrology and palmistry as sciences?
                      8. -1
                        5 October 2021 05: 51
                        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                        Since when did history become a science?

                        Did your mother drop her head on the floor as a child, or did you have meningitis?
                      9. -2
                        5 October 2021 08: 14
                        History is a tool, part of propaganda, and has nothing to do with science. Take, for example, Stepan Bendera, for some he is a national hero, a fighter for the independence of Ukraine, for others he is an executioner, a Nazi and an ally of Hitler. And most importantly, both the first and the second are right.
                      10. -1
                        5 October 2021 10: 00
                        That is, there was meningitis in childhood? I sympathize....
                      11. -1
                        5 October 2021 12: 16
                        I repeat to you once again: history is not a science, it is a propaganda tool. With the help of history, the image of the past, necessary for the state and politicians, is formed, thanks to which it is possible to influence the minds and views of the population.
          3. 0
            3 October 2021 16: 41
            Quote: mihalych
            Much remains of the Assyrians. Even writing. And from the Mongols? Where in Russia is there at least one reminder that it was under the yoke for 300 years? In your opinion, the Mongols did nothing but "travel" to different countries. Nothing was left of them. Not in Russia, not in Europe, not in Asia. Some strange people.

            Have you ever been to Mongolia? The Mongols imposed a tribute and that's it. What should they do in Russia? They live in the steppes. The writing used was Uyghur. If you didn't know
      2. +7
        3 October 2021 07: 59
        "Greece became a captive, captivated the rude winners"
        And so it was everywhere, hundreds of times in history. But why is it that the Mongols surprise you
    4. -3
      3 October 2021 09: 49
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      I’m wondering: for a long time, historians will be reprinting nonsense about the "Mongols who conquered most of Eurasia."


      you know, there are too many documents about this conquest, of course there was something like that and you have to reckon with this, but at the heart of this "story" lies a big lie, who were these Mongols / Tatars?
      We are told that these were modern Mongoloids from Mongolia. But these are primitive and primitive tribes that did not know iron at the time of the 20th century. How did they reach the heights of statehood and conquer half the world so DEGRADED?
      To this modern "historians" do not give an answer.
      Many modern historians, such as Fomenko Nosovsky, noted that the famous Battle of Kulikovo does not have the grounds attributed to it by OI. the field itself.
      There are recent archaeological finds, but even these scales do not allow us to say that this is a field of a large-scale battle, but the finds of Fomenko and Nosovsky, together with, for example, Igor Kurenniy's comments, say that such a battle could have taken place on the territory of Moscow, and the icon of Sergius of Radonezh says with his life that it was not the Mongoloids who fought on both sides, as Vaschenko's new-made pictures are given here.
      The worst thing is that OI DOES NOT WANT to deal with newly discovered facts in the form of a huge number of remains on the territory of the Orphanage / Artillery School in Moscow on Solyanka.
      1. +6
        3 October 2021 10: 09
        Quote: Bar1
        but the "polkulikovo" did not find enough evidence in the form of the remnants of battles and the remains of warriors to assert that this is the very field.

        There are even too many of them in Zolotarevka ...
        1. -1
          3 October 2021 10: 19
          Quote: kalibr
          In Zolotarevka, there are too many of them


          Are these artifacts from the Kulikov field in your museum? Are you okay there?
    5. +2
      3 October 2021 16: 32
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      I’m wondering: how long will historians reprint nonsense about the "Mongols who conquered most of Eurasia"? How physically could the few Mongols (and they were few, since animal husbandry is one hundred times less efficient than agriculture per unit area) to seize China, Korea, Central Asian states and Russia?

      LOL what? Nomadic pastoralism is many times more effective than settled agriculture at that point in time. One shepherd could care for a herd of many thousands, which could feed many people.
  2. +1
    3 October 2021 05: 29
    I look forward to when the Mongols reach our ulus! It seems like it's time.
    1. +1
      3 October 2021 05: 46
      In time - have already reached. This is when the spotlight hits.
      1. +7
        3 October 2021 08: 37
        I will adhere to the comments of the distinguished Alexander and Sergey. I would also love to read about the invasion of Russia from the pen of Edward! Although this topic is not very grateful, but there I can at least operate with something, unlike the present work of the Author!
        By the way, many thanks to Edward for continuing the cycle! In all school textbooks - the period covered by it is described in three words "Mongols captured China before invading Russia"!
        I look forward to continuing!
        1. +4
          3 October 2021 08: 52
          But if China had not been taken with its specialists, our cities would have been harder to storm.
          How does the world resemble communicating vessels.
          1. +9
            3 October 2021 10: 20
            Quote from Korsar4
            But if China had not been taken with its specialists, our cities would have been harder to storm.
            How does the world resemble communicating vessels.

            In fact, Sergei, you have come to the brink of a classic mistake in assessing the Mongols. The Cat-Kuzya acts in the same way, who, sitting on his picket fence, does not want to climb onto the roof of the hut, from where it is easier to notice an evil dog!
            The stamp in "Chinese engineers" helping the Mongols to take Russian cities and fortresses is blinkered to such an extent that we do not notice the obvious.
            The classic China of that era is the Song Empire! And at the time of the fall of the fortresses of Khozrem, Bulgaria and Russia, she had not yet been conquered! The Golden and Iron Empires are essentially yesterday's nomads who have bitten off their pieces from classical China and are still choking on them. More precisely, the classics of the genre, any civilized and numerous people will digest their less cultured and fewer invaders. The three whales of the genius of Genghis Khan were built on religious tolerance, permanent mobilization and the absence of national prejudices! What Europe is promoting today, Timuchin implemented yesterday, and with the pragmatism of a “wild nomad”. "WHO IS NOT WITH US, THAT IS AGAINST US" !!!
            For the collapse of our fortresses, it was enough military specialists yesterday, wild Kidania and Aliens and quite civilized Khozrems. In fact, the covenant of Genghis Khan can be called permanent expansion. When the wild and hungry went to rob the cultured and the rich. The main advantage of the Mongols was that they abandoned tribal prejudices (to cut competitors for the food base of their herds), and began to include in their composition all who showed obedience. At the same time, they fundamentally refused to creep into the soul (religion) and heart (national, or rather generic self-identification) of peoples.
            In fact, who are the main commanders of Chingiz? His former enemies !!!
            Who is his army? His former enemies?
            The possibility of a social lift and equality (albeit imaginary in some cases) already at the first stage led to the fact that the army of the Mongols is called Tatars, by the name of a tribe hostile to the Mongols !!!
            The fourth whale of the Genghis Khan Empire - roads! Fifth - the organization of access control and trade control!
            In fact, the ideal model of the state today: does not go into the heart, soul and pocket! For this you can stand up and with a weapon in hand.
            Regards, Vlad!
            1. +2
              3 October 2021 11: 06
              Vladislav, put it well.

              Do we know in detail what Batu's vices were, and who served them?
              1. +4
                3 October 2021 12: 46
                Quote from Korsar4
                Do we know in detail what Batu's vices were, and who served them?

                I have already told you about one historical anecdote “how 3000 Timuchin’s nukers were“ fucked ”by 15000 Chinese.
                The problem is different, sitting at our stage of evolution, we do not understand the pragmatism of a wild hungry nomad from the 13th century! Although we must admit its effectiveness!
            2. +2
              3 October 2021 12: 11
              Very good comment, Vladislav!
            3. +4
              3 October 2021 20: 06
              For the collapse of our fortresses, it was enough military specialists yesterday, wild Kidania and Aliens and quite civilized Khozrems.

              Vladislav,
              welcome
              thanks for the detailed conclusions !!!
              Here is pushed good
              I will write an article about the Mongols and the siege
              hi
              1. +2
                3 October 2021 21: 55
                Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                Here is pushed
                I will write an article about the Mongols and the siege

                Thank you Edward for an interesting cycle !!! The topic of sieges is worth disclosing, there are so many legends and tales on this topic. The only trouble is that our "opponents" are not ready to give up the heartwarming "truths."
                Recently, one of our old counterparts tried to refer to the Vikings TV series! I chose the time and began to watch little by little. When watching the first, I almost squeaked with pleasure. The reliability of weapons, armor, ships and everyday life! The funeral, the preparations for the campaign, everything was like Ibn Fadlan, and then inaccuracies began in the storyline. A good film to popularize history, but a fairy tale for the story itself!
                A similar story, or rather a dispute about the siege of the Mongols. I will wait sincerely !!! Thank you in advance!
                1. +3
                  4 October 2021 06: 15
                  A good film to popularize history, but a fairy tale for the story itself!

                  Good morning,
                  totally agree
  3. +5
    3 October 2021 05: 45
    Thank you, Edward. I was interested in a lot - both the general picture and the details. For example, the armor of the centurions is made of rhinoceros skin. How many rhinos were running around that time? And how quickly were they transferred to armor?

    As for the allies imprisoned for war, everything is changeable. Today is an ally, but tomorrow the concept is changing.
    1. +5
      3 October 2021 07: 24
      Quote from Korsar4
      For example, the armor of the centurions is made of rhinoceros skin.

      I also drew attention to this. Always thought that the halo of the rhinoceros is Africa. Where, then, is the armor made of rhinoceros skin, and even massively?
      1. +9
        3 October 2021 07: 31
        No, not only Africa. Javanese and Indian rhinos - Asian. Javansky is now on the verge of extinction.
        But how widespread they were in the XNUMXth century is interesting. Apparently - significantly.
        1. +3
          3 October 2021 11: 11
          But how common they were in the XIII century - interesting
          Since getting them without a firearm was not just difficult, but very dangerous, they were there like mice in the kitchen. And they were the same pests. For which they paid in the end.
          1. +2
            3 October 2021 11: 52
            The mouse is a gluttonous creature, but small. And try to feed this carcass. There will be food competition in any case.
            1. +1
              3 October 2021 11: 58
              Try to feed this carcass
              In those years it was simpler - forests made up more than half of the territory in question. And if your field (at that time) was in the category "in general, almost a forest" then you would not be able to resist a rhinoceros with all your desire. The rhinoceros (like the Asian elephant) ate what he wanted and where he wanted. But the available firearms - sent him to the "endangered species"
              1. +3
                3 October 2021 12: 07
                Think of Mowgli Kipling. One village hunter with an antediluvian musket!
                1. +3
                  3 October 2021 12: 10
                  In real life, he should have had a yaytsa from the winner. You can walk on flock animals only once and unsuccessfully.
                  Now in India, chilli peppers of rare power are grown in the beds against elephants. Elephants take a bite - and no longer fit.
              2. +3
                3 October 2021 13: 09
                But I'm not sure that the forest cover in China in the XIII century was more than 50%. The truth was not really interested.
                1. +2
                  3 October 2021 13: 17
                  In the south, forests are no worse than in India and Vietnam (similar climate and soil).
                  1. +3
                    3 October 2021 13: 20
                    To the north - Heilongjiang is similar to our Far East, as it should be. But the forest cover is much less.

                    They cleared forests decently - but how else could there be space for agricultural land. Then, in the same place, the desert occupies a fair share of the area.
                    1. +2
                      3 October 2021 13: 22
                      Most of the densely populated area - Southeast - tropical jungle originally.
    2. +9
      3 October 2021 07: 37
      How many rhinos were running around that time? And how quickly were they transferred to armor?
      ... Yes, they tried, now the habitat of the Asian rhinoceros is the island of Java and still lives in India, is listed in the International Red Book, and with the South Chinese rhinoceros, that's all .. They were used for armor.
      1. +4
        3 October 2021 07: 50
        I think that the XNUMXth century, with wars and population growth, had a greater hand in reducing the number of rhinos.
    3. +2
      3 October 2021 08: 41
      Quote from Korsar4
      I was interested in a lot - both the general picture and the details. For example, the armor of the centurions is made of rhinoceros skin. How many rhinos were running around that time? And how quickly were they transferred to armor?

      Don't give a damn about rhinos! How many cats have been transferred to helmets tails !!!! Fiends! laughing
      1. +2
        3 October 2021 08: 53
        The rhinoceros is also a useful animal. Sharikov won't let you lie.
        1. +8
          3 October 2021 10: 02
          Good morning Sergey,
          when I read about rhinos, I was surprised myself.
          And then in the Vietnamese chronicles, in the lists of literature, I read that the Emperor Song was given elephants and rhinos, yes, they were found in these places)
          hi
          1. +6
            3 October 2021 11: 02
            There, and lions were found en masse. About 10 years ago, as reported in the news, the last Asiatic lion was killed in a flood. Lions are still in India.
        2. +1
          3 October 2021 10: 24
          Quote from Korsar4
          The rhinoceros is also a useful animal. Sharikov won't let you lie.

          "Sharikov on soap", so Professor Preobrazhensky's cat scrawled on the wallpaper with yachi !!!
    4. +6
      3 October 2021 12: 09
      By the way, we have a shield made of rhino skin in the local history museum in Penza ... I bought it by some enthusiast in the 19th century ...
      1. +2
        3 October 2021 13: 10
        Is the origin of the shield known?
        1. +3
          3 October 2021 15: 42
          There was an enthusiast-lover of antiquities, the founder of our museum back in the 19th century. FULL NAME. I do not remember. He bought wherever possible. So we got the iron darts of the Zulus, the armor of the samurai ... the shield. But this is offhand. I can't get into the storerooms at the snap of my fingers.
  4. +9
    3 October 2021 07: 02
    Very good stuff, Edward! I would just bring one more book, read to people
    ...
    In our country, many have not read anything except a textbook for the Secondary School. Gumilyov was read - this is already a "professor". Well, at least "pull up" to the mind ... However, it is difficult for some to pull up to what is not.
    1. +6
      3 October 2021 10: 00
      Good morning Vyacheslav Olegovich,
      thanks for the addition and your clarification! It's a pity not to feed the horse.
      hi
      1. +6
        3 October 2021 10: 32
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        It's a pity not to feed the horse.

        Thanks! But why did you mention the horse? The horse is a noble animal. In my opinion, this situation is more suitable for completely different pets.
    2. -2
      3 October 2021 12: 28
      Quote: kalibr
      I would just bring one more book, read to people

      A. How did I not immediately notice this picture. Shine and beauty. laughing Tricky question. Do you know what is special about the Mongolian saddle of a horse? And why does this picture pass through the category - and let's add a couple of fly agarics to vodka for the sake of picking up? lol
  5. +5
    3 October 2021 07: 32
    What can you say? We are waiting for the continuation, not everything has been told yet. Thank you.
    1. Fat
      +6
      3 October 2021 10: 21
      hi Alexey. I will join, not all ... Edward intrigues with his stories more and more. Great article in my opinion.
  6. +4
    3 October 2021 07: 38
    I read somewhere about the Chinese who look like piranha fish. If suddenly, you want to have something to have one of them, then you will have it, but then the whole flock of piranhas will have you, leaving only one skeleton. This is the case with China - first they were raped by the nomad Mongols, and then the Chinese raped them. wink
  7. +5
    3 October 2021 10: 30
    Quote: Bar1
    Are you okay there?

    And you? Many things have been found in Zolotarvka. Much more (several times) than on the Kulikovskoe field. That's all!
    1. -5
      3 October 2021 10: 40
      Quote: kalibr
      And you? Many things have been found in Zolotarvka. Much more (several times) than on the Kulikovskoe field. That's all!


      they would have taken and embossed a piece of information, about that, or else they got your English armor already.
      1. +5
        3 October 2021 10: 45
        Quote: Bar1
        here they would take and squeeze a piece of art

        She was already at VO. You need to be able to use the Internet. You type "Zolotarevskoe settlement, Voennoye obozreniye, Shpakovsky VO - and everything will open to you. You can differently" Zolotarevskoe settlement "monograph by Professor Belybkin. It is also interesting ... But there are a lot of letters ...
        1. -7
          3 October 2021 10: 58
          Quote: kalibr
          She was already on VO. You need to be able to use the Internet



          yes yes cool

          but your article does not reveal evidence that the Mongols were precisely Mongoloids, that the most important thing in the theory of the "Mongol Tatar" OI and take the trouble to prove the DATING of these finds, what is it based on, that it is 1237?
          Well, there was some kind of battle, it is not clear when, I even admit that thousands of these arrowheads were found, although this cannot be said from the museum exposition, but this does not prove that Mongoloids came to us and conquered Russia and established their own rules here.
          1. +7
            3 October 2021 12: 03
            Quote: Bar1
            Well, there was some kind of battle, it is not clear when, I even admit that thousands of these tips were found, although this cannot be said from the museum exposition,

            All this is in the monograph of Belorybkin. It was cleaned in St. Petersburg by Kirpichnikov himself at the Institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences of Archeology of the Russian Federation. Instead of two hours, the defense went on for four, so everyone was interested ... I got a doctor of sciences ...
            1. -5
              3 October 2021 12: 45
              Quote: kalibr
              All this is in Belorybkin's monograph


              this book?

              https://vk.com/wall-57404752_2553

              it's good that it's not big, so
              I have not found ANY evidence that these finds date back to 1237.
              Please find it.
              1. +2
                3 October 2021 15: 39
                This is the book. But I don’t know why you didn’t find the chronology data there.
        2. +8
          3 October 2021 11: 29
          Yes, Vyacheslav, by the way, why don't you give measurements of skulls and hair color in your articles about tanks? Don't you talk about haplogroups in articles about armor? Why are you keeping some comrades for fools here? They squeezed, you know, a couple of articles for the money of the State Department am
          1. +5
            3 October 2021 12: 05
            Quote: Tlauicol
            a couple of articles for the money of the State Department

            Exactly! And also Intellectuals service. I trust English gentlemen more.
            1. +5
              3 October 2021 15: 14
              Just Bond, James Bond
              hi
            2. 0
              4 October 2021 08: 42
              Intelligent service. I trust English gentlemen more.

              Bond, James Bond

              Of course, this is good sarcasm and has nothing to do with the Mongols, but someone would have squeezed another article on VO about Sydney Reilly, nee Edelstein.

              And as for Zolotarevka, I wanted to ask - has Belorybkin not forgotten about the askiz or is he already doubting? Here's another riddle.
              1. 0
                4 October 2021 16: 54
                Dear Nikolay! Hard to say. I don’t work at the university now and I don’t meet with him.
  8. +1
    4 October 2021 14: 08
    And Mongke Khan himself began bloody diarrhea, and he died under the walls of the city of Hezhou in August 1259.

    Here is a worthy death for a real warrior! wink
    Greetings Edward!
    According to legend, Khubilai, wanting to take Ezhou (north of Anhui province), did not rush to the steppe, but his wife hurried him

    Jealous woman! wassat
    The Suntsy gave someone's hand instead of a head, the Mongols were offended

    Oh time, oh more! hi
  9. 0
    5 October 2021 10: 49
    And Mongke Khan himself began bloody diarrhea, and he died under the walls of the city of Hezhou in August 1259.
    His son Khubilai and other princes had to hurry to the steppe, where the struggle for the throne of the nomadic empire began.


    Kublai is not a son, but a brother
    1. 0
      6 October 2021 10: 11
      Good afternoon,
      Thanks. what they wrote.
      Somehow "zamylivaetsya".
      Sincerely. hi
  10. 0
    7 October 2021 07: 22
    The Mongols had a secret binary weapon, so they won. The armament of the Mongol warriors consisted of two main parts: a spear - from a point and a shaft, a saber - from a handle and a blade, a bow - an arc and a bowstring, an arrow - from a point and a shaft, a whip from a whip and a belt, an ax from ... and so on. The utensils were also in two parts: the pot or pot had a lid, the flask had a cork, a thread was attached to the needle, and a buckle was attached to the belt. Dry ration - some ancient dumplings, from two parts, dough and meat. Also, the Mongolian yurt was divided into two halves. The eastern part is female and the western part is male.
    The Mongols fought on horseback, that is, they fought in pairs, together, a warrior and a beast. So they won.
    By the way, on the banner of Genghis Khan and his throne (royal) bird was a supernatural gray gyrfalcon, not a Chinese phoenix. During the first reconstruction, Mongol warriors set out on a campaign under the flag of Fenghuang. The Mongols and the Chinese were enemies, that is, it is a bit the same as if you portray the enthusiastic British soldiers or Red Army men under the banner with the fascist eagle.

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