"Pomegranate scam": all the secret becomes clear

Reichswehr artillery - 7,5 cm field cannon. The Reichswehr had guns, but there were problems with the release of ammunition for them ...

… For God will bring every deed to judgment, and everything secret, whether it is good or bad.
Book of Ecclesiastes or Preacher, 12:14

History Fatherland. And it so happened that the establishment of Soviet-German cooperation in the 20s was not welcomed by everyone. And not only in Europe, which had its own views on how a country that lost the world war should behave, but also in Germany itself, and even in the USSR.

To begin with, the Soviet representatives very often hinted to the Germans that, in the event of their intransigence, they could turn to Germany's sworn enemy, France, and it is clear that German industrialists and politicians did not like such hints. In addition, at this time, relations between Germany and the USSR were constantly spoiled by various "affairs".

So, after the signing of the Berlin Political Treaty, the Soviet side proposed on May 7, 1926 to eliminate all political incidents that hinder its implementation. First of all, it meant that the German side would pardon and exchange all arrested and convicted persons involved in the transfer of military secrets to the USSR. In the USSR, 14 German subjects were also convicted, 4 of whom faced the death penalty for economic and military espionage, and the rest - either life imprisonment or long imprisonment.

Reichswehr column on the march, 1924

Berlin agreed with the idea of ​​exchange.

Compromising material

But the German Foreign Ministry decided that the War Ministry would be against it. They believed that such a step could be regarded by the Soviets as weakness, and in the future they would begin to blackmail Germany in this way. On the other hand, the trial of the "German spies" was dangerous in that it would surface the connections of the "Junkers" and the Ministry of War of the Weimar Republic with the "Red Air fleet”, And the winning countries would not like it.

To calculate all the options for events, on July 12, 1926, the Germans drew up an interesting document:

"Compromising material."

1. 200 thousand artillery shells ordered by the German side in the USSR were manufactured and stored in Leningrad for transportation to Germany, which is a direct violation of the Versailles Treaty.

2. In Lipetsk, German cadets are being trained at the school of military pilots. And this is also a violation of the Versailles Treaty.

3. There was an exchange of military and naval missions. In principle, there is no violation here, but this fact can be used to discredit Germany in the eyes of international public opinion.

4. Germany is building a chemical plant in Russia.

5. Germany contains in Russia tank school.

6. Firm "Junkers" maintains close cooperation with Russia.

7. Negotiations are planned with Unshlicht on the transfer of the German (military) industry to Russia ("Rheinmetall", "Krupp"), which is a direct violation of the agreement.

8. Germany has invested 75 million marks in the military industry. The charge of remilitarization is quite possible!

The document also said that Soviet pilots were being trained by German instructors; about the work of the flight school in Lipetsk; and also about repeated visits to the USSR by delegations of the Reichswehr, the Navy and the German Air Force. There was also the participation of German officers in the maneuvers of the Red Army in 1925 under assumed names.

However, there was also the Comintern, which sent its emissaries to Germany in order to incite revolutionary activity. And in Berlin they began to fear that Moscow would try to insure their work in Germany by arresting new German hostages in the Union.

Reichswehr soldiers suppress the "Kapp's putsch", 1920

Dangerous precedent

As a result, on July 19, 1926, it was decided to "politically pardon" our "spies" in order to release "their spies".

The Reichswehr, represented by its generals, objected that this was a dangerous precedent. But ... on August 20, President Hindenburg nevertheless signed the relevant papers, and the issue was resolved: 14 Germans convicted in the USSR were exchanged in September for four convicted "spies" in Germany.

That is, military cooperation between the USSR and Germany, of course, took place, but it was subjected to serious tests, firstly, the actual political course of the USSR, in which they did not stop talking about the approaching world revolution, and secondly, views on the behavior of Germany in such countries, like England and France.

Reichswehr soldiers take part in suppressing labor unrest in Saxony, October 1923

And it all ended in a grandiose scandal, called the "grenade scam".

The fact is that rumors about the transportation of military cargo from Germany to Soviet Russia by sea (Mauser, chemicals for the production of toxic substances, in particular, mustard gas, as well as gunpowder, shells, spare parts for aircraft and small arms weapons and much more) began to spread in Finland back in February 1926.

Then several steamers in the Gulf of Finland were covered with ice, and during their rescue, information about the cargo transported could not be kept secret. Then, in November 1926, the Finns even prepared a list of Soviet enterprises, at which, with the assistance of Germany, the USSR was establishing military production. And ... they reported this to Warsaw, Paris, and London.

The French newspaper "Action Francaise" reported this on August 9, 1926. Well, B. Elmer, the press attaché of the Polish embassy in Berlin, did even better: he handed over to an American journalist materials about German supplies to the USSR, along with a request to publish all this.

Germany tried to disavow these rumors.

It was informed to all interested parties that the official German authorities had nothing to do with the transportation of weapons. What is this ... international smuggling on ships chartered in Germany. And these weapons are transported by Russia and China. And also it, and in large quantities, is being sold by the Italian government to China through Czechoslovakia, Denmark and Soviet Russia! Well, it is possible that it is carried by German ships, chartered in a private way. And, by the way, two examples of arms smuggling by Italy were found. And where there are two, there are many!

The scandal, however, could not be hushed up, because of which the commander-in-chief of the Reichswehr, General Hans von Seeckt, was forced to resign, and General W. Haye took his place. However, this rearrangement did nothing.

General Hans von Seeckt

Russian bullets

In early December 1926, the influential British newspaper Manchester Guardian published articles on December 3 and 6 in which it sharply criticized the positions of the USSR and Germany.

Then on 4, 5, 6 and 7 December, similar materials appeared in the SPD newspaper Forverts.

In England, on December 3, 1926, articles appeared: "Loads of ammunition from Russia to Germany" and "Visits of officers to Russia." In a sensational vein and with eye-catching huge headlines on the front page, they reported on the existence of secret links between the German Reichswehr and the Red Army over the past five years.

It was stated that aviation the Junkers company built an aircraft plant in the USSR, which produces military products for both Soviet Russia and Germany, which is a direct violation of the Versailles Treaty. That German chemical plants for the production of chemical weapons are being built in the USSR, and that Reichswehr officers travel to the Soviet Union with false documents. Well, and General Seeckt, of course, knew all this, but did not stop it, although he was obliged!

Seaplane "Junkers" U-20. Played a very important role in the development of Siberia and the Far East

The Manchester Guardian also reported on steamers packed with shells that ply between Leningrad and German ports.

All this took place against the background of negotiations in Geneva, at which the question of terminating the activities of the Inter-Allied Control Commission was to be decided.

Berlin, of course, made an official denial, but then on December 5, 1926, the German Social Democratic newspaper Forverts added fuel to the fire, which published an article: "Soviet grenades for Reichswehr cannons."

The publication said: Soviet Russia "arms the German counter-revolution", supplies arms to the Reichswehr, and she also incites the German workers to revolutionary actions.

"Weren't the guns that fired at the communist workers in Saxony, Thuringia and Hamburg loaded with Russian bullets?"

The newspaper asked.

And who, then, could answer this question directly and honestly?

As a result, the Berliner Tageblat newspaper was forced to admit the existence of facts of Soviet-German cooperation in the military field, but recalled its motives, such as the extremely difficult requirements of the Versailles Treaty, as well as the London Ultimatum, the Genoa Conference, the occupation of the Ruhr and the expectation of an attack from Poland.

It was explained that the policy of the Entente also hit German aircraft construction very hard, so many firms were forced to work abroad: Fokker in Holland, Dornier in Italy. And that all this does not contradict the Versailles Treaty.

As for the orders of ammunition and weapons in Soviet Russia, after the conference in Locarno, according to the newspaper, Germany no longer placed new orders in the USSR.

Junkers Ju-21 - fighter and reconnaissance aircraft. More than 1923 such machines were built at the Junkers plant in Fili near Moscow in 1925-100 ...

In general, everyone who was not lazy was throwing mud at Germany. Both "outside" and "inside".

On December 9, the Swiss newspaper Neue Zürcher Zeitung wrote that “the whole world knew” that Junkers had built an aircraft (and also a chemical) plant in Russia. But Russia was not bound, like Germany, by any treaties in this area and therefore "can, like another military power, provide itself with military aircraft and poisonous gases."

It's funny that the "repentant" Gustav Stresemann, who at that time was Reich Chancellor and Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Weimar Republic, despite all these revelations, was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize on December 10, 1926.

And in Geneva on December 12, 1926, he finally managed to achieve a very important concession from the victorious countries - the abolition of the humiliating inter-allied military control over Germany.

Использованная литература:
1. Gorlov S. A. Top secret: Alliance Moscow - Berlin, 1920–1933. - M .: OLMA-PRESS, 2001.
2. "Soviet-German military and military-technical cooperation of 1920-1933." The topic of the dissertation and author's abstract for the Higher Attestation Commission of the Russian Federation 07.00.02, Candidate of Historical Sciences Baikov, Alexey Yurevich, 2007, Moscow.
3. "Military-political relations between Soviet Russia and Germany in 1921-1939." The topic of the dissertation and the abstract of the Higher Attestation Commission of the Russian Federation 07.00.03, Doctor of Historical Sciences Kantor, Yulia Zorakhovna, Doctor of Historical Sciences 2006, St. Petersburg.
4. "Historians of the USSR - Russia on Soviet-German relations in 1917-1941." The topic of the dissertation and the author's abstract for the Higher Attestation Commission of the Russian Federation 07.00.09, Candidate of Historical Sciences Milovanov, Sergey Vasilevich, 2008, Voronezh.
5. Junkers in Russia.

To be continued ...

Comments

[Kot_Kuzya]

In the 20s, the USSR and Germany were rogue states in Europe, so it is not surprising that Germany and the USSR began to cooperate, including in the military sphere. For example, the Germans built and maintained a tank school in Kazan and an aviation school in Lipetsk, where German instructors trained German and Soviet tankmen and pilots. And only with the coming of Hitler to power, this cooperation was terminated.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

In the 20s in Europe, the USSR and Germany were rogue states

Germany is an outcast, because unleashed the most terrible war in history and deserved it, and Russia made the most significant contribution to the victory over the aggressor, but was plunged into outcasts by national traitors who entered into an unnatural alliance with Germany and Turkey, who had just killed millions, incl. and our fellow citizens.

And in 15 years Germany will come again and again will kill tens of millions of our compatriots.

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: Olgovich

Russia made the most significant contribution to the victory over the aggressor

Nonsense. The main burden of the war was borne by France, the fate of the war was decided on the Western Front, most of the forces were held by the Germans on the Western Front. For example, in August 1914, the Germans held 9 divisions on the border with Russia, if I am not mistaken, and in the West they held about 70 divisions. But the tsarist generals even these 9 divisions could not win, and two Russian armies were shamefully beaten in East Prussia.

Quote: Olgovich

but plunged into outcasts by national traitors

This is you about the liberals Kerensky and Lvov, who issued the criminal order No. 1 and the Declaration of the Rights of the Soldier, thanks to which the front collapsed.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

Nonsense. The main burden of the war was borne by France, the fate of the war was decided on the Western Front, most of the forces were held by the Germans on the Western Front

September 1917: 3 million Germans on the Western Front, 2 million on the Eastern. But! millions more Turks and Austrians against Russia

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

two Russian armies were shamefully beaten

shamefully beaten by the fronts, which in less than half a year gave 3,5 million prisoners to Germany, finding themselves near Moscow

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

This is you about the liberals Kerensky and Lvov, who issued the criminal order No. 1 and the Declaration of the Rights of the Soldier, thanks to which the front collapsed.

Order 1 was published by the Bolsheviks, its original does NOT exist, i.e.
this is a Bolshevik product and this is just a fairy tale compared to the big stupid ones. decrees and appeals after the thief on .. the election of commanders ,, "On the equalization of the rights of all servicemen", which removed the ranks and subordination , about fraternization , about the truce , about the world , and the actual demobilization of the army during the war

Then the front collapsed.

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: Olgovich

September 1917: 3 million Germans on the Western Front, 2 million on the Eastern. But! millions more Turks and Austrians against Russia

The British fought with the same Turks in the Middle East, you can still remember the Gallipoli operation of the British, a kind of analogue of the Verdun meat grinder. And the Italians also fought with the Austrians.

Quote: Olgovich

shamefully beaten by the fronts, which in less than half a year gave 3,5 million prisoners to Germany, finding themselves near Moscow

That's just against the tsarist generals, the Germans kept only 9 divisions, and planned a strategic defense, since according to the plan of the German General Staff, the German army first had to split France, force it to surrender, and only then begin an offensive on the Eastern Front. So it was enough for the tsar-rag to sit on the defensive, and the Germans themselves would not have climbed into the Russian positions, and there would have been no disaster for Samsonov's army. Let me remind you that on June 22, 1941, Hitler threw about 180 divisions against the USSR, and he did not have hostile France behind him. So comparing the Eastern Front of WWII and the Eastern Front of WWII is very stupid.

Quote: Olgovich

Order 1 was published by the Bolsheviks, its original does NOT exist, i.e.
this is a Bolshevik product and this is just a fairy tale compared to the big stupid ones. decrees and appeals after the VOR about .. the election of commanders, "On equalization in the rights of all servicemen", which removed ranks and subordination, about fraternization, about a truce, about peace, and the actual demobilization of the army during the war

Then the front collapsed.

Order number 1 was published on March 1, 1917, literally the day after the seizure of power by the Provisional Government. And Kerensky and Lvov themselves printed this order.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

The British fought with the same Turks in the Middle East, you can still remember the Gallipoli operation of the British, a kind of analogue of the Verdun meat grinder. And the Italians also fought with the Austrians.

so compare the forces of the Turks and the Austrians against the British and the Austrians and you will see how ridiculous they are in relation to the forces of the Turks and Austrians against Russia

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

That's just against the tsarist generals the Germans

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

Let me remind you that on June 22, 1941, Hitler threw about 180 divisions against the USSR,

Let me remind you that unlike Russia, which did not have ANY DAY to mobilize and prepare for the MV, the USSR had as many as 2 (TWO!) years (since 1939) to prepare for any invasion. An complete, yes.

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

So the rag king is enough was to sit on the defensive, and the Germans themselves would not have climbed into the Russian positions, and there would have been no disaster for Samsonov's army

unlike owls. "smart guys" 39-41 years old, who brought our country to the most terrible military catastrophe in the history of the world by such a sitting "in ambush", the Emperor SAVED France for Russia, which became the main target of WWII losses

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

Order number 1 was published on March 1, 1917, literally the day after the seizure of power by the Provisional Government. And Kerensky and Lvov themselves printed this order.

go to school and find out, finally, that the order was worked out in PETROSOVET with the participation of the Bolsheviks, there is NO original, but the Bolshevik printing house published, i.e. this is HER product

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: Olgovich

Let me remind you that unlike Russia, which did not have ANY DAY to mobilize and prepare for the MV, the USSR had as many as 2 (TWO!) years (since 1939) to prepare for any invasion. An complete, yes.

Lying again. Germany declared war on Russia on August 1, and it was the tsarist generals, 16 days after the start of the war, who climbed the Germans in East Prussia. And yes, the king-rag began mobilization on July 30, which was the reason for the declaration of war by Germany.

Quote: Olgovich

unlike owls. "smart guys" 39-41 years old, who brought our country to the most terrible military catastrophe in the history of the world by such a sitting "in ambush", the Emperor SAVED France for Russia, which became the main target of WWII losses

That is, do you think that the USSR should have started fighting Germany in September 1939 for the sake of the "brothers" of the Poles and "brothers" of the French? I certainly understand that the monarchies and Russophobes are not very smart. But to write such nonsense! ...

Quote: Olgovich

go to school and find out, finally, that the order was worked out in PETROSOVET with the participation of the Bolsheviks, there is NO original, but the Bolshevik printing house published, i.e. this is HER product

Lvov was then the head of the Provisional Government, and Kerensky was a minister, and they had all the powers to cancel this order, but! Not canceled! And by the way, I already wrote to you that the Bolsheviks then had an insignificant percentage in the Petrosovet.

The original composition of the permanent Executive Committee of the Petrograd Soviet of 15 people. only 2 Bolsheviks entered - A.G. Shlyapnikov and P.A.Zalutsky. February 28 (March 13) 1917 the size of the Executive Committee was increased to 20 people at the expense of representatives from political parties [6]. On March 1 (14), 1917, an additional 10 representatives from soldiers and sailors, including 2 Bolsheviks, were elected to the Executive Committee. On the same day, the Soviet of Soldiers 'Deputies, formed from representatives of the Petrograd garrison, united with the Soviet of Workers' Deputies. At the same time, the number of representatives of the garrison far exceeded the number of workers. Thus, a single Soviet of Workers 'and Soldiers' Deputies was formed [10]. By March 2 (15), 1917, the Executive Committee already consisted of 36 members, among whom there were 7 Bolsheviks.

The head of the Executive Committee of the Petrograd Soviet was N. S. Chkheidze, the leader of the Social Democratic Menshevik faction, a member of the Provisional Committee of the State Duma, created at the same time. The chairman's comrades are the Menshevik M.I.Skobelev and the Socialist-Revolutionary A.F. Kerensky (all three are members of the Fourth State Duma and Freemasons).

The head of the Petrograd Soviet was an Social Dean, deputy head of the Menshevik and, most importantly, Socialist-Revolutionary Kerensky, the future head of the Provisional Government. That is, Kerensky himself made this Order number 1!

[Olgovich]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

Mushroomsyou're lying... Germany declared war on Russia on August 1, and it was the tsarist generals, 16 days after the start of the war, who climbed the Germans in East Prussia.

what, liar?
Declared war on Aug. 1. and at once Germany climbed to Russia, staging a wild BATTLE and CUTTING of the civilian population of the Russian city of Kalisz, smashing it with artillery and destroying it with fire

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

And yes, the king-rag began mobilization on July 30, which was the reason for the declaration of war by Germany.

For some reason, mobilized Germany in 1939 did not serve as a reason for declaring war on owls by the "wise men" in 1939 and later, nor even for a reciprocal mobilization. The result is the worst military disaster.

Therefore, Russia announced mobilization in RESPONSE to the announced mobilization of Avengia. Itiotov to wait on June 22, in 1914, thank God, there was no.

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

Lvov was then the head of the Provisional Government, and Kerensky was a minister, and they had all the powers to cancel this order, but! Not canceled!

ONCE AGAIN, if it didn't go: the VP is NOT the Petrograd Soviet, where Order 1 was created. The Order printed by the Bolsheviks sold out and it was already impossible to stop it, although attempts were made to disavow

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: Olgovich

Declared war on Aug. 1. and Germany immediately climbed onto Russia, staging a wild BATTLE and CUTTING of the civilian population of the Russian city of Kalisz, smashing it with artillery and destroying it with fire

It's actually a war, and killing civilians is a normal part of the war. Or will you deny that the Americans and the British killed millions of Japanese and Germans with their carpet bombing? And even during the offensive on the territory of Germany, the "democratic" Yankes and Angles did not hesitate at all to rape and kill civilians. But the fact that the tsarist army STARTED the offensive FIRST is a fact!

Quote: Olgovich

For some reason, mobilized Germany in 1939 did not serve as a reason for declaring war on owls by the "wise men" in 1939 and later, nor even for a reciprocal mobilization. The result is the worst military disaster.

Why should the USSR declare mobilization if Germany and the USSR had a Non-Aggression Pact? The announcement of mobilization is a violation of the non-aggression pact. You try to use your brain at least sometimes.

Quote: Olgovich

ONCE AGAIN, if it didn't go: the VP is NOT the Petrograd Soviet, where Order 1 was created. The Order printed by the Bolsheviks sold out and it was already impossible to stop it, although attempts were made to disavow

The Provisional Government had all the powers to declare this Order null and void, and to instruct the commanders to shoot soldiers who would not obey the Charter and the orders of the command. But the Provisional Government generally pretended that it did not notice this Order.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

Actually, this is a war, and the destruction of civilians is normal part of the war.

only among nonhumans, even the killers themselves always disown this

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

that the Americans and the British killed a million

some kind of nonsense

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

But the fact that the tsarist army STARTED the offensive FIRST is a fact!

again didn’t come out the first time? GERMANS FIRST came and captured the Russian city on the SECOND day of the war !!!

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

Why should the USSR declare mobilization if Germany and the USSR had a Non-Aggression Pact?

Did Russia and Germany have the Hague Conventions and?

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

The announcement of mobilization is a violation of the non-aggression pact.

What, Gnrmania demobilized its mobilized army, so as not to narsh him?
You

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

try to use your brain sometimes.

.

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

The provisional government had all the powers

did not have-dual power was, dunno, but made attempts.

[Illanatol]

For some reason, mobilized Germany in 1939 did not serve as a reason for declaring war on owls by the "wise men" in 1939 and later, nor even for a reciprocal mobilization. The result is the worst military disaster.

Why should she be the reason? The USSR was a neutral party in this conflict; it had no obligations towards Poland.
Poland, on the contrary, demonstrated its unfriendly policy against the USSR. In particular, it had a military alliance with Romania, directly directed against the USSR.

[strannik1985]

but I remember that unlike Russia

And this training was carried out, between the spacecraft of 1939 and 1941 there was an abyss.

unlike the Soviet "clever"

Perederg An agreement on military assistance was concluded between RI and France, the allies in the summer of 1939 were banally dragging on time, in the expectation that the USSR and Germany would not be able to come to an agreement and would start fighting.

to school

It remains to clarify that the VP and the Petrograd Soviet met in the same building, Kerensky often went from one meeting to another, he personally traveled to parts of the Petrograd garrison, brought up the content of the order

[Olgovich]

Quote: strannik1985

And this training was carried out, between the spacecraft arr. 1939 and 1941 the abyss

and this is clearly seen in the largest military disaster in history 41-42

Quote: strannik1985

Disturbance Between RI and France, an agreement on military assistance was concluded, the allies in the summer of 1939 were dragging their feet, counting on the fact that the USSR and Germany would not be able to come to an agreement and would start fighting.

however, the USSR was no less terrible for them than Germany, and rightly

Quote: strannik1985

It remains to clarify that the VP and the Petrograd Soviet met in the same building, Kerensky often went from one meeting to another, he personally traveled to parts of the Petrograd garrison, brought up the content of the order

with order number 2, clarifying many of the provisions and misunderstood points of the "predecessor"

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

The Emperor SAVED France for Russia, which became the main target of PMA losses

Yeah, but made an "icebreaker" from Germany. And Schlieffen and Moltke, apparently, were recruited by the Gepeu ... in the sense of the "secret police". Comrade Stalin also tried to preserve both France and England for the common good before the war, but they did not want ...

Quote: Olgovich

the order was worked out in PETROSOVET with the participation of the Bolsheviks

With a much more active participation of non-Bolsheviks.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Yeah, but made an "icebreaker" from Germany

The emperor made sure that the main victims suffered the Anglo-French.

but the next one "achieved" the greatest sacrifices of his own, while the Angles spat on the shore.

Quote: Sahar Medovich

And Schlieffen and Moltke, apparently, were recruited by the Gepeu ... in the sense of the "secret police".

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Comrade Stalin also before the war tried to preserve both France and England for general good, but they did not want ...

this one tried, but the Emperor did. Can you catch the difference?

Quote: Sahar Medovich

With a much more active participation of non-Bolsheviks.

and where is he? Find, come.

The order was issued precisely by BOLSHEVIKS, this is THEIR product

[Foul skeptic]

The emperor made sure that the main victims suffered the Anglo-French.

And what, can you even confirm that the emperor had such deliberate decisions and further steps to implement them?
Or do you just pass off the correlation for a causal relationship?

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

The emperor has achieved

Quote: Olgovich

The emperor did.

Quote: Olgovich

The order was issued by BOLSHEVIK

Can you prove it? You can not? That's just it!

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Can you prove it? You can not? That's just it!

Nna FACTS one more time, if it didn't come from the first:
The Emperor has achieved that the main victims were the Anglo-French.

but the next one "achieved" the greatest sacrifices of his own, while the Angles spat on the shore.

this one tried, and the Emperor did... Can you catch the difference?

Order released exactly by BOLSHEVIKI, this is THEIR product

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Once again, if it didn't come from the first: without proof, these are not facts, but stupid inventions. How did the emperor achieve this? Unable to prove - try to at least explain. Or you can’t do that either?

[Illanatol]

The emperor made sure that the main victims suffered the Anglo-French.

The emperor made sure that he was flushed down the toilet.
Much to the delight of the Anglo-French. True, then the "damned commies" prevented the relics of the empire to profit from it.

but the next one "achieved" the greatest sacrifices of his own, while the Angles spat on the shore.

The USSR, having suffered huge losses, emerged from the war as a stronger and more authoritative power. And the British Empire after the war began to fall apart at an accelerated pace, so that little remained of it.

[Siberian54]

cat kuzya \ do not throw pearls in front of the illiterate .. young Japanese also believe that Hiroshima is the work of Stalin ..

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

shamefully beaten by the fronts, which in less than half a year gave 3,5 million prisoners to Germany, finding themselves near Moscow

Then Hitler was informed that the war was lost. Germany.

Quote: Olgovich

order 1 was published by the Bolsheviks

Precisely not by the Bolsheviks.

[Fitter65]

Quote: Olgovich

Order 1 was published by the Bolsheviks, its original does NOT exist, i.e.
this is a Bolshevik product and this is just a fairy tale compared to the big stupid ones. decrees and appeals after the thief on .. the election of commanders

Of course it does not exist ... and these are all Bolsheviks .. And not Nikolai Romanov, who dragged into this unnecessary war for Russia, and then shamefully abandoned it in February 1917. What can the tsar's generals be proud of? By and large, only one Brusilosky breakthrough, which was exalted to the skies. After this, at least something

On August 26, German troops attacked the 6th corps of the 2nd army, the Russians lost 7500 people and retreated in complete disarray, the right flank of the army was open, but General Samsonov did not receive information about this and continued the offensive [18]. At the same time, the Germans attacked the left flank of the Russian army, which also retreated [19]. As a result, communication with the flank corps was lost, and the command of the army was disorganized. Under these conditions, the 2nd Army began to retreat [18]. The retreat of the five advanced Russian divisions took place under increasing pressure from the German corps advancing on the flanks. The Russian retreat became disorderly, and about 30 men with 000 guns were surrounded. On the night of August 200, General Samsonov shot himself [30].

Thus, the losses of the 2nd army amounted to 6000 killed, about 20 were wounded (almost all were captured), 000 prisoners (together with the wounded who were taken prisoner - 30), 000 guns were captured. 50 generals were killed, 000 were taken prisoner. The total losses of the 230nd army in killed, wounded and prisoners - 10 people [21]. These events were called the Battle of Tannenberg.

After the defeat of the 2nd Army, the German command decided to attack the 1st Army, which was blocking Konigsberg, and expel it from East Prussia. Battles unfolded in the Masurian Lakes region. Here the Russian army was also forced to retreat. The Germans invaded Russian territory and on August 30 (September 12) occupied Suwalki, and on September 4 (17) they occupied Augustow [21].

The East Prussian operation is over. During this operation, the Russian army suffered a heavy defeat, losing about 80 killed, wounded and prisoners. German troops lost about 000 killed, wounded and captured. The Russian troops did not succeed in fulfilling the task of capturing East Prussia [60] However, the Russian troops were able to draw off part of the German forces from the Western Front, thereby fulfilling their allied duty.

This is if you are not aware of 1914. What else was victorious in 1914 then.

In 1914, the Russian army was forced to leave the western part of Poland, but occupied a significant part of Galicia and Bukovina, where the Galician General Government was created [45]. The Russian command intended to seize the passes in the Carpathians in winter in order to invade the lowland part of Hungary in the spring.

then it was 1915

During the summer of 1915, the Russian army, under the onslaught of superior Austro-German forces, during a strategic retreat, left Austrian Galicia, part of the Baltic States, and Russian Poland. However, thanks to the retreat, the Russian armies escaped encirclement and defeat. The plan of the German command to defeat the Russian army and withdraw Russia from the war failed.
The big retreat was a severe moral shock for the soldiers and officers of the Russian army ... The campaign of 1915 was difficult for the Russian army. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers and officers were killed, wounded and taken prisoner. The Russian army left vast territories: Galicia, Bukovina, Poland, part of the Baltic states, Belarus ...

and here is the cherry on the cake.

On March 1 (14), the Soviet of Workers' and Soldiers' Deputies issued the famous Order No. 1, which created soldiers' committees, undermined the power of officers in the army and thereby destroyed discipline. The Provisional Government recognized Order No. 1 and began to enforce it in military units. The disintegration of the Russian army [100] began, which began to rapidly lose its combat capability.

And who was in charge of the Soviets, the Mensheviks and the Socialist-Revolutionaries ... And on the other hand, how is it, an incomprehensible structure instead of a government, albeit a Provisional one, which issues various decrees, orders and orders that are carried out? Where is the government looking? Let it be temporary ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: Fitter65

Of course it does not exist ... and these are all Bolsheviks ..

it is a fact

Quote: Fitter65

And not Nikolai Romanov who involved in this unnecessary war for Russia

then accuse Stalin of dragging the USSR into an unnecessary war

Quote: Fitter65

What can the tsar's generals be proud of? By and large, only one Brusilosky breakthrough, which was exalted to the skies.

The tsarist generals did not have a single shameful cauldron of the model of Kiev and Vyazemsky, where during the week surrendered half a million

Quote: Fitter65

Here the Russian army was also forced to retreat. The Germans invaded Russian territory and 30 of August (September 12) they occupied Suwalki, and on September 4 (17) they occupied Augustow [21].

On the FIFTH day of the war, Minsk was captured without a fight (350 km from the border, without fighting, and it would have been slower), on the third, Vilnius, losses in FIVE days 125 thousand

Quote: Fitter65

This is if you are not aware of 1914. What else is victorious

Russia - ALREADY on the territory of Avengria, there was until the end of the war, and no 3,5 million prisoners for six months of the war.

The main blow and losses for the Anglo-Franks

Quote: Fitter65

On March 1 (14), the Soviet of Workers' and Soldiers' Deputies issued the famous Order No. 1, which created soldiers' committees, undermined the power of officers in the army and thereby destroyed discipline. The Provisional Government recognized Order No. 1 and began to enforce it in military units.

Stupid commercialization: the order was issued by the BOLSHEVIKS, the VP tried to limit it.

[Fitter65]

Quote: Olgovich

Stupid commercialization: the order was issued by the BOLSHEVIKS, the VP tried to limit it.

Well, I won't argue about stupidity.

Quote: Olgovich

, the original does NOT exist, i.e.
this is a Bolshevik product and it is just a fairy tale in comparison

So you will decide whether the original exists or not, and who were the Bolsheviks on the second day after the abdication of the tsar?

Quote: Olgovich

The tsarist generals did not have a single shameful cauldron of the model of Kiev and Vyazemsky, where in a week they surrendered in half a million

Well, then yes, only these tsarist generals somehow, with the support of foreign states, lost the civil war they started. Yes, the Red Army lost several battles, but in May 1945 it was in Berlin, and the tsarist generals had the maximum to cross the borders of Austria-Hungary, occupy impoverished Galicia and give the Kingdom of Poland and the Baltic states to the Germans. So it's better to keep quiet about the great tsarist generals.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Fitter65

Well, I won't argue about stupidity.

still, bolshev. stupidity is obvious

Quote: Fitter65

So you will decide whether the original exists or not, and who were the Bolsheviks on the second day after the abdication of the tsar?

Shaw, you didn't get it right the first time?
Once again: the original does not existIe
the order is a Bolshevik product from their printing house

Quote: Fitter65

Well, then yes, only these tsarist generals somehow, with the support of foreign states, lost the civil war they started.

The civil war was spoiled by the THIEF and the THIEFS: there was NO GW before the THIEF, when will this FACT come, finally ?!

And foreign states for the "war", for the most part, did not appear.
Epic "American-Bolshevik fronts and battles and p are only in sore excited heads

Quote: Fitter65

Yes, the Red Army lost several battles, but in May 1945 it was in Berlin,

They forgot to name the PRICE, yes, but they still cannot calculate it.

Tsarist generals never dreamed of such a nightmare

[Foul skeptic]

Shaw, you didn't get it right the first time?
Once again: its original does NOT exist, i.e.
the order is a Bolshevik product from their printing house

AND? Explain how the fact that the original was not preserved means that the order was not prepared at a meeting of the Petrograd Soviet?
Just because this idea was launched by Bakhurin, ignoring other researchers (Tokarev, Miller, Burdzhalov) and documents (comparison of memoirs and a draft of the minutes of the meeting, to which no one has any complaints for some reason)?
Then Schlieffen's plan is a typographical product.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

AND? Explain how the fact that the original was not preserved means that the order was not prepared at a meeting of the Petrograd Soviet?

There is no original, there is no order from the Petrosovet, but there is an order issued by the bolsheviks, FULLY answering the dull views of the dull Ilych and his dumb party, set out by them in his dull work of the State and Reaolution and no less dumb April theses

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Then Schlieffen's plan is a typographical product.

For the Tblov, who consider the German General Staff and the self-deprecating Petrosoviet to be one and the same.

[Foul skeptic]

There is no original, there is no order from the Petrosovet, but there is an order issued by the bolsheviks

Here is the very meeting of the Petrograd Soviet, where the order number 1 was born

For the Tblov, who consider the German General Staff and the self-deprecating Petrosoviet to be one and the same.

If the pedantic German General Staff did not have the original, then what are the claims to the "self-deceived petrosoviet"?
It's just that not stupid people know that the "order" had something in common with the order, as an act of management recorded in the office work, only in the name, which was insisted on by the soldiers present at the meeting, who are accustomed to the word "order" instead of the initial "appeal", and "the original "there was a leaflet with the decisions of the Executive Committee, written down by Sokolov, read out in front of all the deputies of the assembly, and handed over by the assembly to the soldier Kudryavtsev with instructions to give them to the printing house for printing.

[Kozak Za Bugra]

For everyone who wants to talk about the 1941-42 disaster, I wish to study the history and figures ...
The USSR lost about 8 million soldiers in battle and 4 million were taken prisoner, for one soldier in captivity two were killed with weapons, according to "liberal" calculations (that is, counting only the Germans) the ratio of combat losses of Germany to the USSR is 1d4 (I consider a maximum of 1k 2 ). This is declared a shame and humiliation.
And what about heroic France against this background? For a month and a half, she lost 370 thousand soldiers killed and 1,7 million were taken prisoner, that is, for one killed soldier, almost five were taken prisoner, while the Germans lost 30 thousand soldiers (the ratio of combat losses of Germany to France 1k10 !!!), here this is not a desire to fight and a disaster and this is the most powerful country in Europe was ...

What about the disaster of the Russian Army in the First World War? For 1.7 million soldiers killed 2.5 million soldiers surrendered, France for a turnover of 1.3 million 500 thousand were taken prisoner, and even Germany lost the war had 1.7 million killed and 1.2 million prisoners.

That is, in the First World War, Russia with the tsar priest had soldiers who did not want to fight for the glory of the tsar who had involved the country in a war they did not need, and this is evident in the fact that Russia is the only country where there are more prisoners than killed.

But under the "bloody" regime of the USSR, the only European country where more soldiers died than were taken prisoner, and this is an indicator ... And call it a catastrophe after comparing with the Poles, French, British, Belgians, Norwegians, etc. the tongue does not turn.

So, by the way ...
The article is good.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Kozak Za Bugra

For everyone who wants to talk about the 1941-42 disaster, I wish to study the history and figures ...

and study, but not the false propaganda of the past, where the losses of the USSR in WWII were and ... 7 million.
: The total number of conscientious prisoners and deserters was much higher than in Russia:
owls of prisoners 5,5-6,3 million people, owls deserters and deviators in the USSR4,2 million people.

Russia never dreamed of such numbers. And this despite the fact that the population of the USSR is approximately equal to the population of Russia And it is natural that

Quote: Kozak Za Bugra

This is declared a shame and humiliation.

Quote: Kozak Za Bugra

What about the disaster of the Russian Army in the First World War?

the catastrophe was in the Second World War, and not the Russian army, whose losses were on ORDER less than the Red Army, and let's not forget that a third of the Red Army killed are those who died in captivity, and not on the battlefield.

Quote: Kozak Za Bugra

But under the "bloody" regime of the USSR, the only European country

where in just 6 months of war surrendered 3,5-3,8 million people (population of a large country), which has never been heard in Russia.

And they surrendered, by the way, in cauldrons by half a million, practically, instantly, in the presence of huge masses of troops and revolutions and on OWN land. They wanted to fight.
The Germans in cauldrons, with much smaller forces, fought for many MONTHS-Stalingrad,
Demyansy cauldron, Breslau and other Courland.

[Fitter65]

Quote: Olgovich

the catastrophe was in the Second World War, and not the Russian army, whose losses were on ORDER less than the Red Army, and let's not forget that a third of the Red Army killed are those who died in captivity, and not on the battlefield.

The catastrophe was in the Russian Imperial Army, which not only lost the Russian-Japanese army, but also left its territories to the Germans, which the Red Army returned. and at the expense of losses, go here to read https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=10335997%40cmsArticle

Quote: Olgovich

The Germans in cauldrons, with much smaller forces, fought for many MONTHS-Stalingrad,

A lot of months, almost years.

Quote: Olgovich

Breslau and other Courland.

In general, once again I am convinced of your ignorance of the history of the country that you are trying to cheat here. Read what was said in the orders at the expense of the surrounded Breslau and other Courland. We will not remember the surrounded Leningrad, this is not the Wehrmacht at Stalingrad ... As they say with you, to argue, do not respect yourself.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Fitter65

The catastrophe was in the Russian Imperial Army, which not only lost the Russian-Japanese army, but also left its territories to the Germans, which the Red Army returned.

The catastrophe was in the Red Army, only prisoners lost 3,5 million az six months, where has this been seen?

The Red Army did not return anything - the Germans defeated the Entente and declared your Brest betrayal to be insignificant

Quote: Fitter65

... and at the expense of losses, go here to read https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=10335997%40cmsArticle

read for a long time. And?

Quote: Fitter65

A lot of months, almost years.

meyatsami. in contrast to Vyazemsky, Kiev and Uman and other boilers, where half a million surrendered, almost instantly.

Quote: Fitter65

In general, once again I am convinced of your ignorance of the history of the country that you are trying to cheat here. Read what was said in the orders at the expense of the surrounded Breslau and other Courland.

to say what they wanted, "profound" "expert"?

Quote: Fitter65

We will not remember the surrounded Leningrad, this is not the Wehrmacht at Stalingrad ..

absolutely absolutely different things, and "surrounded" Leningrad, by the way, even supplied its products to other fronts.

Quote: Fitter65

. As they say with you to argue, do not respect yourself.

So you don't respect yourself? Well, that's reasonable.

[Panzerjäger]

On June 1, 1918, the Germans transferred data on 3811000 prisoners of the Russian army who were in German, Austrian and Turkish captivity. Considering that in the First World War, 14,5 million people were mobilized into the Russian army, plus the pre-war number of more than a million, then almost every fourth soldier of the Russian army was captured by the enemy.
You know, it sucks not to know and forget. Learn the materiel before you try.

[Panzerjäger]

Darling, NEVER did the Germans have 2 million troops on the eastern front. The maximum number in 1915 was 877. This was enough to drive the 000-million-strong tsarist army near Riga, Dvinsk, Mlodechno and Baranovichi with dirty towels. And Austria-Hungary fought on three fronts in general: Eastern, Balkan and Italian.

[Kot_Kuzya]

Sorry, wrong:

For example, in August 1914, the Germans kept 9 divisions on the border with Russia, if I am not mistaken, and in the West they kept about 70 divisions.

In August 1914, the Germans held 16 divisions on the Eastern Front, and 96 divisions on the Western Front.

[Senior seaman]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

In August 1914, the Germans held 16 divisions on the Eastern Front, and 96 divisions on the Western Front.

And what follows from this?

The main goal of the Schlieffen Plan was to use the time difference required for full mobilization between France and Russia, which was estimated at about 2 months, to apply the principle of simultaneous war with only one enemy, breaking and forcing France to surrender first, and then Russia.

In general, on the Eastern Front, the Central Powers used about 40% of their forces. This number was not constant, but on average it is. At first glance, this is not so much, especially given the length of the line of contact, stretching from the Baltic to the Black Sea. However, it must be remembered that in addition to the Russian Empire, the Entente also consisted of two more great powers (Great Britain and France) of that time, one regional (Italy) and several small ones. And the first two at the beginning of the twentieth century were huge colonial empires that controlled most of the globe. The human resources of each of them individually were practically not inferior to those of Russia, despite the fact that the capabilities of the industry exceeded those by a factor, if not an order of magnitude. But even in these conditions, Russia managed to divert very significant enemy forces onto itself. In other words, her contribution was more than proportionate. Perhaps even a little more.

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: Senior Sailor

However, it must be remembered that in addition to the Russian Empire, the Entente also consisted of two other great powers (Great Britain and France) of that time, one regional (Italy) and several small

In fact, the Entente is an alliance of Russia and France. If you think that England was in the Entente, and was an ally of Russia and France, then you are generally a complete ignoramus. Germany just started the war, as it hoped that England would remain neutral, since England had no allied treaties with Russia and France, and Sir Gray assured the German ambassador that England would remain neutral in Germany's war with France and Russia.

[Fat]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

In fact, the Entente is an alliance of Russia and France. If you think that England was in the Entente, and was an ally of Russia and France, then you are generally a complete ignoramus

Initially, since 1904, the phrase fr. l'Entente cordiale ("cordial agreement") was used to refer to the newly formed Anglo-French alliance... And so yes, the Franco-Russian alliance began to take shape in the 90s of the 19th century

... The Entente was finally formed in 1907.
From left to right: Love - Faith - Hope.
Before the storm of hostile forces
In the days of heavy tribulation
Their holy union in the battlefield
God himself blessed from heaven

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: Thick

The Entente was finally formed in 1907.

Please deign to give a reference to the 1907 treaty of alliance between England and Russia. Just don’t cite here a treaty on the delimitation of spheres of influence between Russia and England in Persia, which people like you love to brandish as proof of the alliance between England and Russia.

[Fat]

Normally And that wasn’t the 1904 treaty between France and Britain (cordial agreement) was not a treaty delimiting the colonial interests and claims of Great Britain and France?
The contradictory trends in the development of the Triple Concord, observed in 1907-1914, ultimately led to the birth of a new quality. Under the influence of the growth of international contradictions and the danger posed by the Triple Alliance, the formation of a military-political alliance of a "new type", different from the "situational coalitions" of the 1911th century, was outlined. This process was on the rise and reached its peak at the turn of 1912-XNUMX, marked by several acute international conflicts (Agadir crisis, Italian-Turkish and the first Balkan wars). The degree of coordination of the participants' actions and the level of mutual obligations achieved during this period virtually ruled out the possibility of their secession from the Entente and the reorientation of foreign policy towards Germany.
The third stage in the development of the Entente as a military-political union refers to the period of the First World War in 1914-1918. The July crisis of 1914, which led to the outbreak of this conflict, became the starting point in the evolution of the Entente from a closed club of three great powers, united in the struggle against the hegemonic aspirations of Germany, into a new, hitherto unknown form of an open multilateral military-political alliance with stable organizational forms.
As the true scale and duration of the war became clear, it became necessary for the Entente powers to abandon their separate policy and accept certain obligations to their partners. The first such agreement was the agreement between Russia, England and France on the future partition of the Ottoman Empire, concluded through an exchange of memorandums in March-April 1915. According to modern researchers, “... in fact, the secret agreement on the Straits was the first large-scale deal of an imperialist plan between the Entente powers ". The next May, 1916, the Sykes-Picot Treaty was signed, distributing almost all the countries of the Arab East between England and France. By 1917, the sides had fixed joint political goals in the ongoing world war. Thus, the Entente reached the highest degree of development characteristic of the traditional military-political alliances of the XVIII-XIX centuries.
https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/evolyutsiya-antanty-kak-voenno-politicheskogo-soyuza-1891-1923-1

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: Thick

Normal And that wasn’t the 1904 treaty between France and Britain (cordial agreement) was not a treaty delimiting the colonial interests and claims of Great Britain and France?

You actually claimed that England was an ally of France on the basis of the 1904 treaty of alliance. Well, give a union treaty between these countries, where they undertake to come to the rescue in case of aggression by a third country.

[Fat]

Didn't claim! This is what you conjecture and assert it for me. "Alliance" in terms of diplomacy is generally a shaky and temporary matter, especially at the beginning of the 20th century. Even Italy, being a member of the tripartite alliance, at first remained neutral, and then entered the war on the side of the Entente ... Such were the morals of the Allies then ...
In 1923, from the remnants of the enlarged Entente, after the victory that took on the role of "world government", the "League of Nations" was formed, with all the contradictions of interests of the countries participating in the agreement.

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: Thick

Didn't claim! This is what you conjecture and assert it for me

It's clear. Merged ... England was not an ally of either Russia or France. Enough already to retype the propagandists' inventions. This myth arose in the USSR during the Second World War, when they began to exploit the still tsarist image of three allies against Germany. And it was continued by post-war historians, since in the Second World War both France, Britain and the USSR fought against Nazi Germany.

[Fat]

The poster I have proposed is dated 1914. Why the devil I began to argue with you with you? I'm not asking myself ...
You still do not understand the written text and are not able to understand anyone's words except your own. It is impossible to urge you to return to the sinful earth from the flight of your imagination ... So you can enjoy it there - one at war with mills and encyclopedias.
What did you understand there? you seem to be basically deprived of this ability

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: Thick

The poster I have proposed is dated 1914. Why the devil I began to argue with you with you? I'm not asking myself ...

To give an agitation poster as an argument is, of course, an indicator of your mind :)))). You would have cited Goebbels's placards as evidence :)))). This is the level of people who believe that England was an ally of Russia and France before WWI :)))). Kindergarten is simple.

[Fat]

Yes! This is an indicator of my shiny sharp still young mind
Are you jealous?
Capercaillie (lat.Tetrao urogallus) is a large bird from the pheasant family, the order of chickens. The bird owes its name "capercaillie" to the well-known peculiarity of the male who is walking during the mating season to lose sensitivity and vigilance, which hunters often use.
You are so alike
With respect.

[Kot_Kuzya]

Well, if you are young, then your ignorance is understandable. At 20, I myself did not know a lot of things in history and geopolitics. Read more and gain knowledge.

[Senior seaman]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

In fact, the Entente is an alliance of Russia and France.

In your alternate reality, it is possible.
In our history, the Russian-French Union, concluded in 1891, was not called that. The name 'Entente cordiale "Hearty Accord" originally belonged to the Anglo-French Union, concluded in 1904.
And if you do not know this, then you are not just a complete ignoramus, but also a militant :)))
And now that the historical educational program is over, can you say if you have any objections on the merits?

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: Senior Sailor

Anglo-French Union, concluded in 1904.
And if you do not know this, then you are not just a complete ignoramus, but also a militant :)))

Aha-ha-ha-ha :))))). To call an agreement on the division of spheres of influence in the colonies a union treaty - it is necessary to have a strongly alternative mind :))))

- Joint Declaration on Egypt and Morocco. It was accompanied by secret articles.
- Agreement on Newfoundland and Borders in Africa. France renounced claims to the coast of Newfoundland. In exchange, Britain transferred certain territories in Africa to France.
- Declaration on Siam, Madagascar and the New Hebrides.

And where is the alliance clause here? About military assistance in case of aggression by a third country?

[Senior seaman]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

Name the agreement

That's what it was called, whether you like it or not.
There was no other "Entente cordiale".
As I understand it, there is nothing to say about the essence of the question you raised (about the insufficiency of Russia's contribution to WWI)?
The drain is counted.

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: Senior Sailor

That's what it was called, whether you like it or not.
There was no other "Entente cordiale".

Merged. I hope you learned that Russia and France had no alliance with England? And now you will not repeat the myths of the propagandists?

[Senior seaman]

My dear man, you can dig as much as you like to the wording, remember how all the trolls do about spelling, this does not change the essence. On the merits of the question, you have nothing to say.
The rest is talk in favor of the poor.

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: Senior Sailor

silt man, you can dig as much as you like to the wording, remember how all the trolls do about spelling, this does not change the essence. On the merits of the question, you have nothing to say.
The rest is talk in favor of the poor.

So bring the treaty of alliance between Russia and England, and between France and England, according to which England is obliged to come to the aid of Russia and France if a third country attacks her. There is no such contract. So there is no need to repeat the propagandists' myth that Britain was allegedly an ally of Russia and France until 1914.

[Senior seaman]

This is probably very convenient, to attribute something to your opponent, and then brilliantly refute what he did not say :)))
You stated it

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

In fact, the Entente is soyuz Russia and France.

Meanwhile, as "Entente" or "Consent" is originally just about the Anglo-French agreement of 1904. How Great Britain could not have been in it is a great mystery.
I draw your attention to the fact that it was you who were the first to talk about the "union", not me. Therefore, I leave the honorable right to assert and deny the existence of a formal union treaty. I didn't write anything about it.
My comment was that the Russian Empire in WWI had no more than a third of the available forces and significantly less industrial power than France and Great Britain, which were also at war with the Central Powers. Therefore, it is rather strange to demand from one Russia has a greater contribution than these two first-class powers.

[89268170588]

Even a cat should be in the subject. 9 divisions are about 100000 personnel and occupy about 120 km of the front. "Better to be than to seem, better to know than to suppose" Moltke

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Olgovich

Germany is an outcast, because unleashed the worst war in history

It's complete nonsense, PMA is a product of joint production of European powers, and the fact that the tsarbatyushka and the camarilla have merged their own country to hell is not the merit of some "national traitors" (by the way, who are they?) parasites.

Quote: Olgovich

And in 15 years Germany will come again and again will kill tens of millions of our compatriots.

41 minus 15 years is 26 years. So Olgovich is not friendly with numbers? Yes, the anti-Soviet Russophobe has now degraded to the end.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Stupidity complete, PMV product of joint production of European powers,

so do not write it: the perpetrators of the war are clearly defined by INTERNATIONAL LAW.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

and the fact that the tsarbatyushka and camarilla have merged their own country to hell

Bolshevik national traitors merged their country, leaving it with coupons for women's panties, for food, a dead village, an endangered people and the borders of the 17th century.

And in March 1917, the defeated in WWI are already known.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

41 minus 15 years is 26 years. So Olgovich is not friendly with numbers?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

41 minus 15 years is 26 years. So Olgovich is not friendly with numbers?

commented articles read -try: IN

early December 1926 years the influential British newspaper "Manchester Guardian" published articles on December 3 and 6 in which it sharply criticized the positions of the USSR and Germany.

Got it, no?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Yes, the anti-Soviet Russophobe has now degraded to the end.

yeah, advisor

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Russophobe has now degraded to the end.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Olgovich

so do not write it: the perpetrators of the war are clearly defined by INTERNATIONAL LAW.

And where is the decision of the court, tribunal, conference on Germany's guilt in unleashing PMA? Olgovich's stupidity reached the international level, about Moldavian, but invariably Russophobic.

Quote: Olgovich

Bolshevik national traitors merged their country, leaving it with coupons for women's panties, for food, a dead village, an endangered people and the borders of the 17th century.

Well, what a Russophobic mess in Olgovich's head, he is talking about 1917 and he is rubbing it in about 1991. So, Ol'govich, the tsaristushka was drunk from the throne by his own general-ministers-hangers-on.

Quote: Olgovich

read commented articles - try:

I do not see in this nonsense a mention of the article of the British media, warmly and dearly beloved by Olgovich:

Quote: Olgovich

but plunged into outcasts by national traitors who entered into an unnatural alliance with Germany and Turkey, who had just killed millions, incl. and our fellow citizens.
And in 15 years Germany will come again and again will kill tens of millions of our compatriots.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And where is the decision of the court, tribunal, conference on Germany's guilt in unleashing PMA? Olgovich's stupidity reached the international level, about Moldavian, but invariably Russophobic.

impolite loser-Russophobe and here nekopenhagen : The provisions of the Treaty of Versailles were developed and adopted by PARIS Peace Conference 1919 and Article 231 of the Treaty states

: Allied and Associated Governments declare and Germany acknowledges that Germany and its allies are RESPONSIBLE for causing all losses and all losses, incurred by the Allied and Associated Governments and their citizens as a result of the war that was IMPOSED on them by the ATTACK of Germany and its allies.

Did it get there?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Well, what a Russophobic mess in Olgovich's head, he is talking about 1917 and he is rubbing it in about 1991.

your 17th and naturally led to 1991, in just 70 years managed to lead to extinction and the 17th century.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

So, Ol'govich, the tsaristushka was drunk from the throne by his own general-ministers-hangers-on.

Comrade Stalin categorically disagrees with ignoramuses: Feb. "The revolution was made by the proletariat under the leadership of the Bolsheviks"-we read a short course in the history of VKPBEE

Quote: Vladimir_2U

I do not see in this delirium

not surprising: the mournful never see their delirium and do not consider it as such

[Vladimir_2U]

No, well, it is clear that the Anglophile Russophobe Olgovich considers the decision of the Anglo-American-French conference an act of international law and not the will of the winner, but the Germans did not consider it, not all Germans, and this despite the fact that

The German delegation wanted to enter into negotiations with the Entente powers on the content of a peace treaty, but this was refused. Delegations were only allowed to make written statements on individual articles of the treaty. She made extensive use of this, but could not change the essence of the treaty. Then Brockdorf-Rantzau refused to sign the contract and resigned. The German delegation returned home, after which a heated discussion took place in Germany between opponents and supporters of the signing of the treaty.

Well, okay, but why would an attack (by the way, not an attack as on the Soviet Union, but a declaration of war in accordance with all the rules of the then international law) and the outbreak of war are considered equivalent by Olgovich?

Here are some English (what a surprise), and not only, historians do not think so:

Sir Max Hastings, military historian
No country can be considered alone responsible for unleashing a war, but Germany is still more to blame than anyone else.

Sir Richard J. Evans, Professor of History, Cambridge
Serbia bears the greatest responsibility for unleashing the First World War. Serbian nationalism and expansionism were deeply destructive forces, and Serbian support for Black Hand terrorists was extremely irresponsible.
But Austria-Hungary bears only slightly less responsibility for its panicky and overreaction to the assassination of the heir to the Habsburg throne.
France in every possible way encouraged Russian aggressiveness towards Austria-Hungary, and Germany - Austrian intransigence.

Gerhard Hirschfeld, Professor of Modern and Contemporary History, University of Stuttgart

- Austria-Hungary, Germany, Russia, France, Britain and Serbia

Sean McMeekin, Koç University, Istanbul

- Austria-Hungary, Germany, Russia, France, Britain and Serbia

It is human nature to look for simple and understandable answers to complex questions, so the thesis that Germany is the only culprit in unleashing the First World War turned out to be so tenacious.
Without German support for the tough position of Austria-Hungary in relation to Serbia after Sarajevo, "carte blanche", the First World War would obviously not have started. Accordingly, Germany is to blame.
But it is also true that without a terrorist conspiracy in Belgrade, the Germans and Austrians would have no reason for this dire choice.
Politicians in Berlin and Vienna tried to localize the conflict in the Balkans. However, it was Russia, having received its "carte blanche" from Paris, that inflated this Austro-Serbian conflict to the size of Europe.

Well, etc.

Quote: Olgovich

So, Ol'govich, the tsaristushka was drunk from the throne by his own general-ministers-hangers-on.
Comrade Stalin categorically disagrees with ignoramuses: Feb. "The revolution was made by the proletariat under the leadership of the Bolsheviks"

Does Olgovich consider himself a great scientist? So, dear Olgovich, stupid deceit is not at all a sign of intelligence or knowledge. And all because Stalin did not write such lines about the February revolution.
https://ruslit.traumlibrary.net/book/stalin-vkpb/stalin-vkpb.html#s001009

Quote: Olgovich

your 17th and naturally led to 1991, in just 70 years managed to lead to extinction and the 17th century.

Quote: Olgovich

not surprising: the mournful never see their delirium and do not consider it as such

Two great phrases by Olgovich. Guess which isn't crazy.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

No, well, it is clear that the Anglophile Russophobe Olgovich considers the decision of the Anglo-American-French conference an act of international law

the communist-rusophobe still does not know what League of Nations Charter was an integral part Treaty of Versailles and the treaty was an act of international law signed Germany UK France Italy USA Japan and 20 more countries.

On the basis of his system, the following agreements were concluded - Sevres and others.
Stupid ignoramuses then do not consider the Potsdam and Yalinka conferences an act of law, otherwise what is in their minds?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Here are some

yes, I don't care about some people: the international treaties of the parties recognize the fault of Germany Austria, etc. even by the agrssors themselves.... In the Yalta conference, there was not even a trace of this, but this is an act of right, right?

Has it come to the ignorant?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Does Olgovich consider himself a great scientist? So, dear Olgovich, stupid deceit is not at all a sign of intelligence or knowledge. And all because Stalin did not write such lines about the February revolution.

Stalin PERSONALLY edited the "Course and inserted his definitions, ignorant.

your 17th and naturally led to 1991 - in just 70 years he managed to lead to extinction and the 17th century.
to understand this elementary

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

17th and naturally led to 1991

And what naturally led to 1917? How did it all start?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

And what naturally led to 1917? How did it all start?

the most terrible war in the history of mankind.

the "superpowers" have coupons for women's panties once a quarter naturally in the PERFECT conditions of a long-term world and opportunities for development.

An complete a, yes ...

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

the most terrible war in the history of mankind.

But only? Before that, far from the most terrible war led to 1905 - in fact, to a civil war. A quarter of a century later, a much more terrible war in the same Russia did not lead to anything like that.
But the main thing: did 1917 really lead to 1991? Maybe he alienated him by 70 years?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

But only? Before that, far from the most terrible war led to 1905 - in fact, to a civil war.

Compared a root vegetable to a finger ... A GV started with thieves

Quote: Sahar Medovich

A quarter of a century later, a much more terrible war in the same Russia did not lead to anything like that.

yeah, but a million fellow citizens who fought on the side of Germany (this has never happened in the history of Russia) and 4,2 million deserters and deviators, that's another thing, yes.

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Did 1917 really lead to 1991? Maybe he alienated him by 70 years?

Before the THIEF, there was NOT ANY independence, EVERYTHING after the THIEF and it was the THIEFs who established the current borders of Russia in 1917-1940, and instead of Russia, a sexless union of sovereign states was arranged.
Sclerosis?

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

Compared a root vegetable to a finger

Find the difference. Except for scale.

Quote: Olgovich

a million fellow citizens who fought on the side of Germany (this has never happened in the history of Russia)

Exactly - it was not. Including in 1941-45. Only in the unhealthy imagination of various "silts"
.

Quote: Olgovich

4,2 million deserters and draft evaders are different

This is not different, but the same as in 1914-18. The other is the consequences. In the first case, the country collapsed, and the regime disappeared, in the second, the country won, the regime strengthened and expanded its influence (contrary to some hopes). Feel the difference.
So what led to 1917? It's not just war, is it?

Quote: Olgovich

Before the THIEF, there was NOT ANY independence, EVERYTHING after the THIEF

It is a lie - independence began in the spring-summer of 1917. Further, they only intensified, and with the victory of S. destroyed. Would not have won S.V. - 1991 would have come already then.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Find the difference. Except for scale.

difference in the essence horseradish and a finger if it does not reach.

Quote: Sahar Medovich

This is not different, but the same as in 1914-18

in the WTO there were no million citizens who fought against their country on the side of the aggressor and did not surrender to one hundred thousand per DAY (Kiev, vyazems. and other boilers) there were much fewer prisoners and deserters

Quote: Sahar Medovich

In the first case, the country collapsed, and the regime disappeared, in the second, the country won, the regime strengthened

in the first, the victorious, in fact, the country was destroyed by traitors (yours), and in the second the losses are so inconceivable that it will never recover, and success is coupons for women's panties and food

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Lies - independence began in the spring-summer of 1917.

stupid lie - NOBODY up to THIEFS

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Further they only intensified, and with the victory of S.V. destroyed. Would not have won S.V. - 1991 would have come already then.

with the victory of the stupid power-in place of RUSSIA formed sovereign states-in the window, look at the creation of stupid in 1917-1940

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

the difference in the essence of horseradish and a finger,

There is a difference in the essence of a horseradish and a finger. In the essence of these events - not the slightest. If it doesn't reach.

Quote: Olgovich

prisoners and deserters were much less

There is evidence that more. But if (if!) And less, then not much, and in relation to the size of the army - more. But the main:

Quote: Olgovich

in the first, the victorious, in fact, the country was destroyed by traitors

in fact, the country was a loser, because "nobody wanted to win." If "the traitors destroyed the country," then they were all of Russia. And all the peoples living in it. And first of all - the army. It's just a fact.

Quote: Olgovich

dumb lie

Pure truth.

Quote: Olgovich

in place of RUSSIA, sovereign states were formed

They were Russia. One and indivisible. It's just a fact.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

There is a difference in the essence of a horseradish and a finger. In the essence of these events - not the slightest.

THE SAME difference if the third time did not come.

You still call a gopnik a ryvoltsiner.

Quote: Sahar Medovich

There is evidence that more. But if (if!) And less, then not much

shove there further, which is less

Quote: Sahar Medovich

in fact, the country was a loser, because "nobody wanted to win."

WHERE did she lose? Enemy x knows where, dies in hundreds of thousands of hunger, what are you?

Quote: Sahar Medovich

If "the traitors destroyed the country," then they were all of Russia.

a bunch of sweets from Switzerland, sent by the Germanhoyazevs, which have nothing to do with Russia. And Brest, hack to death on the forehead, one of the reasons for the GV of Russia against the German lackeys.

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Pure truth.

the pure truth that a stupid lie

Quote: Sahar Medovich

They were Russia. One and indivisible. It's just a fact.

it is a pity that you are not in 1937, that would have hung, potted, shot for a united and indivisible USSR

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

THE SAME difference if the third time did not come.

If it didn’t work the third time, it’s not the same.

Quote: Olgovich

shove there further, which is less

Substitute - I'll shove.

Quote: Olgovich

WHERE did she lose?

It is there and nowhere else.

Quote: Olgovich

Enemy x knows where

The main enemy EVERYWHERE on our land and on the land of our allies. All attempts to oust him are in vain. Contrary to the difference in potentials.

Quote: Olgovich

a bunch of sweets from Switzerland, sent by the Germanhoyazevs, which have nothing to do with Russia.

If such existed in nature - they, yes, have nothing to do with Russia. And the Bolsheviks, headed by Lenin, have more than anyone else.

Quote: Olgovich

Brest, hack to death on the forehead, one of the reasons for the GV of Russia against the German lackeys.

Against German lackeys - i.e. against Krasnov, Skoropadsky, the Baltic "kings", etc.? Agree. Equally, the Peace of Brest-Litovsk is one of the reasons for the mass support of the Bolsheviks by the people of Russia and, as a consequence, their victory.

Quote: Olgovich

it is a pity that you are not in 1937, that would have hung, potted, shot for a united and indivisible USSR

Well, what I personally would hang, trample, shoot - who knows, but what is true is true - just for the intention to do something against the indivisibility of Russia (i.e. to organize 1991) in 1937 they did not hesitate to shoot.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

If it didn’t work the third time, it’s not the same.

the same-hack on the forehead for the fourth time: the gopnik is not a revolitsner

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Substitute - shove

yours and substitute-sun!

Quote: Sahar Medovich

It is there and nowhere else.

I won there

Quote: Sahar Medovich

The main enemy EVERYWHERE on our land and on the land of our allies. All attempts to oust him are in vain. Contrary to the difference in potentials.

And we-ON THE GROUND enemy, he is dying of hunger in hundreds of thousands , Achieved NOTHING and was bandaged ... with paper "bandages"

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Against German lackeys

yes, against them - Bronteins, blanks, Movshevichs and other non-human traitors who gave the German invaders THIRD parts FOREVER

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Equally, the Peace of Brest-Litovsk is one of the reasons for the mass support of the people of Russia for the Bolsheviks and, as a result, their victory.

A THIRD of the population given to the invaders has always been supported, yes, like everyone else. There is no victory in sight - where are these losers? Awww!

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Well, what I personally would have hung, trampled, shot - who knows, but what is true is true - just for the intention to do something against the indivisibility of Russia (i.e. to organize 1991) in 1937 they did not hesitate to shoot

in the 1930s, it was "indivisible" and was cut into Kazakhstans and other Kirghizia, and I would like to see it from today, which I would then call the KSSR a united Russia. That he would have been beaten off earlier, I wonder

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

gopnik is not a revolitsner

Yes. And there were revolutions. Fact.

Quote: Olgovich

yours and substitute

Jump first

Quote: Olgovich

I won there

I just didn’t notice it. The enemy is also.

Quote: Olgovich

and we are ON Enemy EARTH

And the enemy is on ours. And our allies.

Quote: Olgovich

Achieved NOTHING

The Entente is the same. The enemy is on their land.

Quote: Olgovich

There is no victory in sight

Here in front of you. Which is why it shakes you.

Quote: Olgovich

to Kazakhstan and other Kyrgyzstan

This was all Russia was. Fact.

Quote: Olgovich

That he would have been repulsed earlier

Him - nothing. For myself - for sure a forehead: "I am Ryusky, mi Ryusky."

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Yes. And there were revolutions. Fact.

GV was after the thief. Fact

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Jump first

yes I kicked my foot already.

Quote: Sahar Medovich

I just didn’t notice it. The enemy is also.

Bolshoy beams did not notice, stupid, what to take. everyone else knew perfectly well

Quote: Sahar Medovich

And the enemy is on ours. And our allies.

and we are on them. and the lands of the allies

Quote: Sahar Medovich

The Entente is the same. The enemy is on their land.

Germany has died of hunger by HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, has not achieved ANYTHING - this is not an achievement? Another season, and MILLIONS would have died.

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Here in front of you. Which is why it shakes you.

Awuuu, idea, she's worn out by the regime? She was gone for a long time, as it was not, disappeared like a stench

Quote: Sahar Medovich

This was all Russia was. Fact.

write to the guys in Kazastan and declare that they are Russia

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Him - nothing. To myself - probably a forehead: "I ryusky, mi ryusky ".

Hmm ..

Let's Get Free!

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

GV was after the thief. Fact

Yes. But not only.

Quote: Olgovich

yes I kicked my foot already.

Now in a cast?

Quote: Olgovich

everyone else knew perfectly well

So they were pretending to be stupid? Target?

Quote: Olgovich

have not achieved ANYTHING is not an achievement?

And that the Entente ruined their own more Central ones - is this an achievement? That's what we are talking about - won, because the Germans had fewer corpses. To her added American ones. Achievement!

Quote: Olgovich

write to the guys in Kazastan and declare that they are Russia

Well, now they really are not Russia. Thanks to yours.

Quote: Olgovich

Let's Get Free!

So you are staying? Free - will!

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Quote: Olgovich
the most terrible war in the history of mankind.

Everything is very simple, for Olgovich PMV is the most terrible war because England, adored by him, suffered the heaviest losses in it, he does not care about Russia in general.

[Vladimir_2U]

Everything is very simple, for Olgovich PMV is the most terrible war because England, adored by him, suffered the heaviest losses in it, he does not care about Russia in general. What to take from the fosterling of small-britters.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Olgovich

The communist-rusophobe still does not know that the Charter of the League of Nations was an integral part of the Treaty of Versailles and the treaty was an act of international law signed by Germany Great Britain France Italy USA Japan and 20 other countries.

Anglo-lizoblyud "is not able to understand" that Germany was forced to plead guilty to unleashing the First World War simply by "the right of the mighty", without any court or evidence and without any punished by sentence. Unlike the second world war. Where is the trial on the leadership of Germany after WWI? And there was no trial.

Quote: Olgovich

so do not write it: the perpetrators of the war are clearly defined by INTERNATIONAL LAW.

Where is the trial on the leadership of Germany after WWI? And there was no trial.

Quote: Olgovich

Stupid ignoramuses then do not consider the Potsdam and Yalinka conferences an act of law, otherwise what is in their minds?

Is it possible for the wretched mind of a Russophobe-Anglo-litter that the conferences (including the Paris one) decided the post-war structure of Europe and the world, and were not acts of international law, but agreements based on their decisions were already. And Germany could not sign the Versailles Treaty.

"All the accused and various other persons for a number of years before May 8, 1945, participated in the planning, preparation, unleashing and waging wars of aggression, which were also wars in violation of international treaties, agreements and obligations."

Where are such words in relation to the Kaiser and his retinue ?!

To death by hanging: Goering, Ribbentrop, Keitel, Kaltenbrunner, Rosenberg, Frank, Frick, Streicher, Sauckel, Seyss-Inquart, Bormann (in absentia), Jodl

Who was hanged after the Paris Conference and Versailles? Nobody.
So those guilty of unleashing WWI were appointed and not punished in any way, but those guilty, albeit not all, in unleashing the Second World War were convicted and punished.

Quote: Olgovich

Stalin PERSONALLY edited the Course and inserted his definitions, knowing nothing.

Where are those words in the "Short Course" ?!

Quote: Olgovich

Feb "The revolution was made by the proletariat under the leadership of the Bolsheviks"

False bullshit from under the tail of Britain.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

in March 1917 already known defeated in WWI

Is that the Almighty.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Is that the Almighty.

Tebil thieves and in March 1918 it was not clear.
Aligning the Tebils?

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

Aligning the Tebils?

This is your own business. But to lie about "in March 1917, the defeated in WWI are already known" still should not be.

Quote: Olgovich

Tebil thieves and in March 1918 it was not clear.

And also in April and May. Maybe later. Who is to blame that there was a great crowd in the world of Tebils at that time and their opinion was considered correct?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

This is your own business.

these are your actions. and your beels

Quote: Sahar Medovich

But to lie about "in March 1917, the defeated in WWI are already known" still should not be.

bilam unknown, and after the rutabaga winter, when hundreds of thousands of Germans and Austrians died of hunger and the impotence of Germany on the fronts

Quote: Sahar Medovich

And also in April and May. Maybe later. Who is to blame that then there were a great crowd in the world of Tebils and their opinion was considered correct?

here I agree your TBLA the second part of the betrayal of the Br was signed much later in March, when the United States was already at war. What to take from tbilov.

But NOBODY in the world, except for your fishing and their masters, the German invaders, thought it was right. The correctness of which has been shown by History

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

these are your actions. and your beels

No, yours. You look up to them - makes strong statements.

Quote: Olgovich

bilam unknown

If so, then our planet in 1917 was inhabited exclusively by them, claiming: "Until the summer of 1918, Germany's martial law was truly excellent. It seemed to the whole world (! -SM.) That the allies were on the brink of destruction."

Quote: Olgovich

But NOBODY in the world, except your fishing and their masters, the German occupiers

Perhaps. But, it turns out, apart from them, there was no one in the world then. Allies of Russia - they are the same.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

No, yours. You look up to them - makes strong statements

beats-those who committed betrayal of Br with already a victory in their pocket.

But the tblam did not need the victory, they needed POWER.

Matching the beats!

Quote: Sahar Medovich

If so, then our planet in 1917 was inhabited exclusively by them, claiming: "Until the summer of 1918, Germany's martial law was truly excellent. It seemed to the whole world (! -SM.) That the allies were on the brink of destruction."

The Bils do not even know that the Br betrayal allowed to transfer more than a MILLION soldiers to the West Front, which ensured the attempts of the Gkrmania offensive. But with the entry into the war of the United States and with its hundreds of thousands of German corpses of hunger, she was doomed, and only the Beats do not understand this.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

beats-those who committed betrayal of Br with already a victory in their pocket.

It was only then that the "victory in the pocket" could only be seen by hitting. Or rather, it has an intellect like that of a turnip. That is why it was necessary to save Russia in Brest. At the request of the entire army - from soldiers to ministers.

Quote: Olgovich

with the entry into the war of the United States and with its own hundreds of thousands of German corpses of hunger, she was doomed and only the Beats do not understand this.

See above - who is to blame for the fact that then the world consisted entirely of beats who, until the summer of 1918, believed that the Germans would surely win. And modern beats operate with afterthought.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

It was only then that the "victory in the pocket" could be seen unless he was hitting. Or rather, it has an intellect like that of a turnip.

beat and the diot did NOT see victory over ALREADY dying from the hunger of the hemanostria.

Quote: Sahar Medovich

That is why it was necessary to save Russia in Brest. At the request of the entire army - from soldiers to ministers.

NOBODY entrusted ANYTHING to tbilam.

No wonder the bicily and traitors concealed the content of the ALREADY signed betrayal about the people, and the people did not even know what the traitors were going to give to their masters.

Quote: Sahar Medovich

See above - who is to blame for the fact that then the world consisted entirely of beats who, until the summer of 1918, believed that the Germans would surely win. And modern beats operate with afterthought.

see above: your power to beat traitors is not the whole world.

And who knew how to add two and two (the potential of the Entente and Germany, dying of hunger) I understood in the 17th century.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

beat and the diot did NOT see the victory over the ALREADY dying of hunger hemanoustria

Yes, I have not. No one. There weren't others then?

Quote: Olgovich

NOBODY entrusted ANYTHING to the tbil

Tbilam - of course. And anyone who would immediately end the war (in any way - very few people were interested) in the Russian army and in Russia in general were terribly happy.

Quote: Olgovich

your power to beat traitors is not the whole world

This is yes, your power of beating traitors is really not the whole world. But then the whole world had no doubt that the Germans would win.

Quote: Olgovich

And who knew how to add two and two (the potential of the Entente and Germany, dying of hunger) I understood in the 17th century.

And who, for example, was it? Who understood? It was definitely not the Entente. With such a combination of potentials, the Entente was doomed to victory before the autumn leaf fall in 1914. However ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Yes, I have not. No one. There weren't others then?

beat and iot ilich and kmpani didn’t see victories over ALREADY dying of hunger hemanoustria

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Tbilam - of course. And anyone who would immediately end the war (in any way - very few people were interested) in the Russian army and in Russia in general were terribly happy.

just-no-one instructed from the people of Russia, and the Tbilis climbed up and sold it.
The beels and the national traitors Iicha and their masters, the German invaders, were terribly happy

Quote: Sahar Medovich

And who, for example, was it? Who understood? It was definitely not the Entente. With such a combination of potentials, the Entente was doomed to victory before the autumn leaf fall in 1914. However ..

The Entente won - strictly according to OBJECTIVE indicators, and it was clear that it was also in 1914 after the capture of Paris.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

ilić and kmpani have NOT seen the victory over the ALREADY dying of hunger hemanoustria

"Kmpani" - i.e. Entente? She hadn’t seen it.

Quote: Olgovich

no one instructed from the people of Russia

As a matter of fact, the entire people of Russia instructed and wished.

Quote: Olgovich

Entente and won

Now we know.

Quote: Olgovich

strictly according to OBJECTIVE indicators and it was clear that it was in 1914 after the capture of Paris.

Then there were no people to whom it was clear. Contrary to objective indicators, they piled corpses on the Germans on their land. No success.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

"Kmpani" - i.e. Entente? She didn’t see

Ilich has his own company

Quote: Sahar Medovich

As a matter of fact, the entire people of Russia instructed and wished.

NOBODY instructed and did not want to.
40% of workers ended up forever in the German occupation by the Brest betrayal. Is this what they wanted? When you write, you are so impressed that you are delusional

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Now we know.

Then it is known

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Then there were no people to whom it was clear. Contrary to objective indicators, they piled corpses on the Germans on their land. No success.

everyone knew the edge of the big tbilov

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Contrary to objective indicators, the Germans filled up with corpses on their land

this is already in the next war, despite the objective superiority of several times in tanks, aircraft, etc.

Quote: Sahar Medovich

No success.

Germany was defeated, if not in the know. And not at the cost of 27-42 million of our lives, as with the "craftsmen"

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

Ilich has his own company

But the Entente didn’t see it anyway.

Quote: Olgovich

NOBODY instructed and did not want to.

They wanted it, and even very much.

Quote: Olgovich

Then it is known

.

Quote: Olgovich

everyone knew

That the Germans are likely to win.

Quote: Olgovich

this is already in the next war

In the previous one - especially. Unlike the next one - with a negligible result.

Quote: Olgovich

Germany was defeated, if not in the know

Now we know. Lined with corpses.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Now we know. Lined with corpses.

yes: 27-42 million (no one knows for sure)

As a result, yours has been gone for a long time, as well as the regime that has rotted alive itself, without wars and cataclysms

That's the whole story.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Those who have lost their lives from all causes: 19,9 million - direct losses plus about 1,5 million due to the increased mortality rate in the war (as was the case in other countries). The rest is from the ceiling. Losses of the armed forces - the ratio in the enemy is less than 1 MV. The result is simply incomparable.

Quote: Olgovich

yours have been gone for a long time

However, you are still shaken by the fact that they are here ...

[strannik1985]

and Russia made the most significant contribution to the victory over the aggressor

By the time the Brest Peace Treaty was signed, the RKMP actually had no army, a crowd of men in greatcoats. The Germans land in Finland, a quick march to St. Petersburg with the support of the Finnish Natsiks and that's it, there is no Provisional Government, Petrosovet and any other government

[Snail N9]

Understood nothing: what "scam"? Where?

[strannik1985]

To be honest, I also did not understand what the title refers to.

[Witness 45]

What nonsense, RI made the main contribution to the victory over Germany in 1 MB? The main contribution was made by France, most of the German divisions fought against it on the Western Front, and on the Eastern Front, Russia was opposed by Austria and Turkey, not the most militarily strong countries, and nevertheless the war ended with the standing of German troops almost near St. Petersburg, in the Baltic States. in Ukraine. And do not write nonsense that the Bolshevik agitators are to blame for this. This agitation was mosquito bites, and the main reason was the outdated semi-feudal regime in Russia, which could not ensure the timely scientific, technical and economic development of the country, and the liberal punks who overthrew the tsar to please the Anglo-Saxons (after all, the war was coming to an end, and it was necessary to fulfill the promises made to the tsar to transfer the Dardanelles to Russia, and this the Anglo-Saxons could never have allowed), took power, but being just incapable talkers further worsened the situation both at the front and in the rear and brought the country to October 17.

[Vladimir_2U]

… For God will bring every deed to judgment, and everything secret, whether it is good or bad.
Book of Ecclesiastes or Preacher, 12:14

If, as an epigraph to the article, a quotation from the Bible means the author is Shpakovsky. And what to do, how to give weight to "research", and even not to your own, must be given. And the fact that all the fuss with rumors and articles was directed not at all to the detriment of Germany, but to the detriment of the USSR, the author is violet.

[kalibr]

Didn't you at one time ask the VO administration to put the names of the authors at the beginning of the article so that you know immediately who to read and who is not? And now your wish came true, although a little not so. You need to rejoice.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: kalibr

Didn't you at one time asked the VO administration to put the names of the authors at the beginning of the article?

Isn't it me.

Quote: kalibr

And now your wish came true, although a little not so. You need to rejoice.

Why should I rejoice in the crooked fulfillment of someone else's desire?

[kalibr]

Well, 100% never happens. And so - you see the epigraph, and even biblical, it means Shpakovsky. You don't have to read ... It's a trifle, but life makes it easier, isn't it?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: kalibr

you see the epigraph, and even biblical, it means Shpakovsky. You don't have to read ... It's a trifle, but life makes it easier, isn't it?

You don't have to read, yes, if the case of the shooter or the castles concerns, but as soon as there is a talk about something concerning Russia / the USSR, then it is necessary to upset you, which means you have to read.

[kalibr]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And the fact that all the fuss with rumors and articles was directed not at all to the detriment of Germany, but to the detriment of the USSR, the author is violet.

Is this called "besieged"? Funny. Much more interesting are the comments of Viktor Nikolaevich and Aviator-Sergei. By the way, on his advice I read the codes of the Criminal Code of the USSR for 22 and 26 years. I learned a lot of interesting things that I did not know before. Live forever ...

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: kalibr

Is this called "besieged"? Funny.

Laughter prolongs life, so you benefit from me more than me from you. Health!

[kalibr]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Laughter prolongs life, so you benefit from me more than me from you. Health!

But this is a good comment, for which my sincere thanks to you! And I really benefit from your comments.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: kalibr

And I really benefit from your comments.

Take your time to relax.

[Pane Kohanku]

But this is a good comment, for which my sincere thanks to you! And I really benefit from your comments.

I wanted to write that the discussion will be conducted according to the principle "How, once again, Vyacheslav Olegovich ate you-know-what", but, I see, I didn't eat too much! I am teasing you all amicably, colleagues.
It is remembered about cooperation with the Germans that they helped invent the 76-mm anti-aircraft gun (from which the 85-mm later grew) and the 37-mm anti-tank gun (which later grew to the "forty-five"). Well, and the NM mortar. Which did not take root in our country, but in the Wehrmacht became a heavy weapon that was part of an infantry regiment.

[Reptiloid]

And why would you be glad that man wants to come closer to God. Repentance for the Communist Past.

[Catfish]

Vyacheslav, hello.
And in the following articles, could you tell us more about the German tank school from the USSR and about the tests of German tanks at its range. It would be interesting.
Light tank Rheinmetall

Rh.L.Tr. on trials in the USSR

"... it was the Teko training ground - created in Kazan by a special Technical Commission for the exchange of scientific and technical information in
the field of tank building. The agreement on the "Soviet-German tank school" was signed in Moscow in December 1926. "(c)

(VK 31 - "Light tractor" from "Rheinmetall" | WTgame)

[Pane Kohanku]

VK 31 - "Light tractor" from "Rheinmetall" | WTgame

The British had similar ones in the 20s. Vickers Medium Mark 1 and Mark 2. Also with a tractor layout. They were removed from service even before WWII, but they did appear in the video chronicle of the maneuvers.

[Catfish]

So the light tank Mk A "Whippet" (Hound) took part in the First World War. In 1918, 96 Mk A tanks took part in the battle of Amiens. For the first time in the history of tank forces, they made something similar to an operational breakthrough - breaking away from the infantry and accompanied by cavalry, they raided the rear of the German troops.

[Pane Kohanku]

For the first time in the history of tank forces, they made something similar to an operational breakthrough - breaking away from the infantry and accompanied by cavalry, they raided the rear of the German troops.

Yes I remember.
And in the 20s, the Americans also tried to make tank-tractors.
We were engaged in armored tractors in the early 30s.
SU-2:

And the prolific Dyrenkov did a lot:
D-11 on the chassis of the Caterpillar tractor with a 76-mm cannon

D-10 on the chassis of the Kommunar tractor with a 76-mm cannon

And the D-14 armored personnel carrier - an armored landing tank for 15 shooters with two DT machine guns with four ball mountings on the Kommunar tractor chassis

if interested - here is the link:
http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/tractor/bronetr2.html

[Catfish]

Listen, but he was not shot for sabotage?

[kalibr]

Quote: Sea Cat

Listen, but he was not shot for sabotage?

Arrested on October 13, 1937. Sentenced by the HCVS of the USSR on December 9, 1937 on charges of "participation in a sabotage and terrorist organization."
On the same day he was shot at the Kommunarka training ground (Moscow region), where he was buried.

[Pane Kohanku]

Listen, but he was not shot for sabotage?

Yes, Vyacheslav Olegovich answered you correctly. By the way, information about the execution appeared relatively recently. In the 2007 book "Armor on Wheels", Kolomiets writes that Dyrenkov's fate is not very clear, according to some sources, he died in a car accident in the 30s.
But no - he was really shot.

[Catfish]

Yes, for such a squandering of funds, one execution is not enough. The peasant either foolishly took up something that neither ear nor snout understands, or just a "sent Cossack" and "enemy of the people."

[Pane Kohanku]

Yes, for such a squandering of funds, one execution is not enough. The peasant either foolishly took up something that neither ear nor snout understands, or just a "sent Cossack" and "enemy of the people."

First, I think. Although he was sly-ass. The same, only even more cunning-ass, was Kurchevsky.
I have a vague feeling that Dyrenkov had certain problems with the design of rotating towers. The D-8 and D-12 armored cars were without them, on the latter he used an aircraft turret (already mastered!). On armored cars D.-9 and D-13, most likely, the developments on MS-1 and BA-27 were used - I'm talking about the very mount of the tower, its support.
Wikipedia writes that on the second experimental armored railroad D-2, the guns were located on the pedestals from the armored car "Garford" (hello to the tsarist general Filatov!).

On further railcars - on standard armored pedestal machines, 76-mm cannons of the 1902 model.

That is, he did not know how to design the mountings of the towers and their support.

[Catfish]

Yes, in my opinion, he did not know how to do anything at all, so they slapped him because of the harmful uselessness.

[Pane Kohanku]

Yes, in my opinion, he did not know how to do anything at all, so they slapped him because of the harmful uselessness.

Kurchevsky shit more. There was also Taubin, who was never able to perfect his automatic grenade launcher - he was also shot. But here the question is squarely - the country urgently needed "working reliable samples of weapons", and not the dreams of individual designers. Dreams are good ... when war is not on the doorstep ...

[Catfish]

As for Taubin, I think it’s in vain. A completely new type of weapon is not born in a moment, so the NKVDeshniki shit no less than those. whom they spanked, if not more, I mean in scale and perspective.

[Pane Kohanku]

As for Taubin, I think it’s in vain. A completely new type of weapon is not born in a moment, so the NKVDeshniki shit no less than those. whom they spanked, if not more, I mean in scale and perspective.

The weapon was simply needed urgently. Probably, they got excited with him - at another job he could be useful.
By the way, isn't that why they started to make aircraft designers into "sharashki" too? ..

[Catfish]

Someone smart in time changed his mind, as with the fact that men like Kostya Rokossovsky were returned to the army, otherwise it would not be known when and how the war would have ended.

[Undecim]

And in the following articles, could you tell us more about the German tank school from the USSR and about the tests of German tanks at its range. It would be interesting.

It all started like this.

[Catfish]

Ага.

Models of tanks at the exercises of the Reichswehr, 1928.

[Undecim]

And these are the teachings at the Ausbildungszentrum Kama.

[Catfish]

They don't move there with their own legs?

[Undecim]

Pesce by machine.

[Catfish]

We called it "walking on the tank".

[Undecim]

It is inconvenient for us to "walk by bmpshny".

[Catfish]

Exactly, you can break your tongue.

[Undecim]

And the neighbors in general were on the armored personnel carrier. "Peshe on the armored vehicle" - not a single officer with a hangover will command.

[Catfish]

Yes, this is completely indigestible to a sober head.

[Reptiloid]

What's funny about quotes? How many times --- do not judge, VOSH quoted, while himself ... . yes, offended by the USSR, as he himself wrote, only got ready for a doctorate, and here the USSR is destroyed. In the RF --- failed.

..... to the detriment of the USSR .....

it is indispensable. On the main thing, the silence is about the creation of the Comintern. On the belief in the World Socialist Revolution, the capital of this new state was planned in Berlin.
Yes, naive romanticism. It was.

[kalibr]

Quote: Reptiloid

while myself ..

Me, Dima, you can. I have three diplomas, one more significant than the other. And a bunch of books and articles published all over the world. What do you have? "Interested in history"? Alas. Today, to understand the events of the past, it is not enough to be interested only in them. But if you are interested in the topic, after the article there is a list of interesting works. You can familiarize yourself with them.

[Reptiloid]

I can...

This is the main thing. Word TO ME So you are juggling the facts, and we can not always expose. Since we are all working, almost. And many at work write, hiding from their superiors ...
For example, recently in a comment I saw another lie about the USSR, and did not answer, the object should have been as soon as possible.
And you wrote there that your grandmother has a pension of 28 rubles, the salary of a teacher is 80 rubles, and the book costs 12 rubles with a penny. Ah! Oh! Here are the hardships in the USSR !!!!!!
Only now, 12 rubles, this is the price before the 1961 reform, and the pension, salary is after the reform. You were living at that time. Not me! And I have been interested for a long time, we have a large library at home. And I saw the prices. So divide the pre-reform price by 10 !! ruble with kopecks

[kalibr]

Quote: Reptiloid

So you are juggling the facts.

I am not slipping facts, but sources. Take it and read it. There is a list at the end of the article. Self-education is a great thing. And as for prices and pensions, you have correctly noticed that. But the parity of prices did not change. What was expensive in the 54th was also expensive in the 61st.

[Reptiloid]

..... price parity has not changed .....

How is that? 12 rubles out of 80, (as you came up with) is the same thing, what is a ruble out of 80? I do not believe.
And you also wrote that your grandmother did not work, so they decided, but all other family members worked, and she cooked other things around the house

[kalibr]

Dima, read about the reform of the 61st on the Web. It will be easier...

[Reptiloid]

Quote: kalibr

Dima, read about the reform of the 61st on the Web. It will be easier...

I immediately compared the year of publication of that book, some fifty .... Did you find out on the Web that there was no ratio of 1/10? Simplified?

[kalibr]

Quote: Reptiloid

And many at work write, hiding from their superiors ...

But the same Japanese work at work. Probably that's why they live better, huh?

[Reptiloid]

In all countries, online during lessons, during work, and even, which is completely unacceptable, while driving .... unfortunately
Even during a meeting, some are online, while others have faked them

[kalibr]

Quote: Reptiloid

unacceptable, driving .... unfortunately
Even during a meeting, alone on the net,

Do not follow their example. Bad examples are contagious!

[Reptiloid]

This is a different life. As one girl said

..... I took revenge on my MCH ...

Armen Gasparyan asked her

did you find another

..no .. I banned him on Facebook and WhatsApp ...

Armen Gasparyan. News we deserve.

[svp67]

Well, two "political outcasts" of that time came to each other's aid, knowing full well that the rest of the world is asleep and seeing how to once again bring them "to their knees"

[Undecim]

The scandal, however, could not be hushed up, because of which the Commander-in-Chief of the Reichswehr, General Hans von Seeckt, was forced to resign.

Seeckt really resigned because of the scandal, but this scandal has nothing to do with Soviet-German relations.
In the fall of 1926, Seeckt allowed the grandson of the former Emperor Wilhelm II to serve as a liaison officer in the Reichswehr maneuvers in southern Germany without the approval of the government.
The sect was accused of trying to revive the monarchist traditions in the army. Reichswehr Minister Gesler delivered an ultimatum - either Seeckt's resignation, or Gesler himself will resign. To prevent another government crisis, Hindenburg dismissed Seeckt.
Heinz Hürten: Seeckt, Hans Friedrich Leopold von. In: Neue Deutsche Biographie (NDB). Band 24, p. 140.

[Daniil Konovalenko]

The USSR, the Entente, was it forbidden to have trade, diplomatic relations with Weimar Germany? Was the USSR a party to the Versailles Treaty?

[kalibr]

Quote: Daniil Konovalenko

Was the USSR a party to the Versailles Treaty?

No! The Swiss newspaper also wrote about that! That we can do everything.

[Daniil Konovalenko]

Do you think that it was impossible for the USSR to carry out military and economic cooperation with Weimar Germany?

[kalibr]

Quote: Daniil Konovalenko

Do you think that it was impossible for the USSR to carry out military and economic cooperation with Weimar Germany?

Sure. What limited us?

[Ashes of Claes]

Quote: Daniil Konovalenko

Do you think that it was impossible for the USSR to carry out military and economic cooperation with Weimar Germany?

But, I think, the first step towards this was made by the German side. Radek did not rot in Moabit, considering it a valuable agent of influence and a promising negotiator. Two Jews, he and Rathenau, made a small gesheft in the Moabite chamber, which had very important consequences for both sides. After which, of course, Radek was released on his way home with his mission. And it went ...

[Daniil Konovalenko]

It does not matter who "first started", cooperation for both parties was mutually beneficial. But Germany's revanchist aspirations prevailed over common sense.

[kalibr]

Quote: Daniil Konovalenko

It does not matter who "first started", cooperation for both parties was mutually beneficial. But Germany's revanchist aspirations prevailed over common sense.

Exactly!

[Ashes of Claes]

Quote: Daniil Konovalenko

It doesn't matter who "first started"

Why is that? Is there a history lovers club here, or am I the wrong door?

Quote: Daniil Konovalenko

cooperation for both parties was mutually beneficial

and no one argues with that.

Quote: Daniil Konovalenko

But Germany's revanchist aspirations prevailed over common sense

At what point? And where was the border between "revanchist" and "expansionist" aspirations? In general, revanchism is quite a natural symptom of the post-imperial syndrome, isn't it? Here, many people still feel a part of something great and semi-mythical and demand from Viach.Ol. to write about the Soviet past only with aspiration. I really hope that he will have the tact to send them delicately without lengthy explanations.

[kalibr]

Quote: Ashes of Klaas

that he will have enough tact

Or maybe not get it ...

[Daniil Konovalenko]

At what point? And where was the border between "revanchist" and "expansionist" aspirations?

Probably when Hindenburg appointed Hitler as chancellor, there was a whole intrigue there.

[Aviator_]

and the rest - either life prison,

There was no such punishment in the USSR Criminal Code.
By the way, the Germans brought their production, prohibited by the Versailles Treaty, not only to the USSR, but also to Turkey and the Netherlands.

[Reptiloid]

Quote: Aviator_

and the rest - either life prison,

There was no such thing in the Criminal Code of the USSR ...

what are we talking about! There, exaggerate a little, here a little ---- and now there are terrible horrors!

[kalibr]

Quote: Aviator_

and the rest - either life prison,

Probably not ... But for such harmful foreigners, the term could well be so long that there was not much difference. In any case, they decided to exchange them.

[Aviator_]

But for such harmful foreigners, the term could very well be so long,

The professional historian should know these things. The maximum sentence in 1926 was 10 years.

[kalibr]

Quote: Aviator_

The professional historian should know these things.

It is impossible to know everything. And why? Here I read the code for 22 and 26, I found out. So what? Have my pension added? You need to know what generates income.

[Aviator_]

It is impossible to know everything. And why? Here I read the code for 22 and 26, I found out. So what? Have my pension added? You need to know what generates income.

It is not "Everything". This is a question closely related to the main specialty. As a result, the quality of the article drops sharply. As for income - here everyone decides for himself how to earn money - by disseminating inaccurate information, or, nevertheless, accurate. Wouldn't they have paid for the exact one?

[Ashes of Claes]

Quote: Aviator_

By the way, the Germans brought their production, prohibited by the Versailles Treaty, not only to the USSR, but also to Turkey and the Netherlands.

Yes, the article mentions:

many firms were forced to work abroad: Fokker in Holland, Dornier in Italy.

[Undecim]

1. 200 thousand artillery shells ordered by the German side in the USSR were manufactured and stored in Leningrad for transportation to Germany, which is a direct violation of the Versailles Treaty.

I checked it from two sources.
Groehler, Selbstmörderische Allianz, S.41
Zeidler, Reichswehr und Rote Armee, S. 150.
The shells were ordered 300 pieces.

[kalibr]

We have already discussed the issue of sources and their verification. And we came to the conclusion that if inaccuracies and errors are found in scientific publications, then what to expect from popular ones, whose authors use these works? Well. and it is simply physically impossible to check every digit. And, most importantly, how to please - which one to check and which one not? Everything? You know ... As Buratino used to say: "Look for the fool!".

[Undecim]

I have designated this figure solely to clarify the issue. Quite by chance, the folder with the sources was "on the way".

[ee2100]

Vyacheslav Olegovich!
You yourself have chosen the position of a "bad boy" who shits in the Soviet past.
Naturally to you and the corresponding attitude of a part of the community, this sub-site.
According to today's article. Have some secrets been revealed? No. All violations of international law remained with Germany, but you still smeared the USSR.
Be consistent and draw parallels between the RF and the Taliban.
Clearly weak! Is your gut thin?

[Pane Kohanku]

Vyacheslav Olegovich!

Hello, hello
A bit off topic. I wanted to show the video - a clipping from the "Bunker". Do you know where it was filmed?


This is Peter, st. Shkapina, corner with the Library. When the girl speaks, the wall of the bathhouse is visible behind her back - the buildings are already in the 1970s. If you look closely, you can see that the Hitler Youth are exercising with our 85mm antiaircraft gun.

[ee2100]

Hi!
I do not receive comment notifications on my tablet on my tablet. Some kind of nonsense.
Once I was in these baths, not very much. From the side of Shkapin there is a brick in the direction of the Baltic Station, but since there is often a traffic jam, many turned ), and so am I.

[Pane Kohanku]

From the side of Shkapin there is a brick in the direction of the Baltic Station, but since there is often a traffic jam, many turned laughing), well, me too

Yes, it was. Now, however, there are fewer such people. And the traffic jam is here 80% of the working day.

[Catfish]

In the foreground is a guy wearing a Luftwaffe Air Gunner helmet. The emblem matches - the helmet is not. There should be cutouts for the headphones and the general shape.

[Pane Kohanku]

The emblem matches - the helmet is not. There should be cutouts for the headphones and the general shape.

I think you're right. But, if you see, their city doesn't even match.

[Catfish]

I don't really know Peter and here I trust you, but they could have had our anti-aircraft gun from the mass of captured trophies, they called it "Russian klystyr", "The Adventures of Werner Holt" Read it?

[Pane Kohanku]

they called it "Russian klystyr", "The Adventures of Werner Holt" Read it?

I have not read Adventures, but I heard about the nickname of anti-aircraft guns. In general, the Germans were little money-mongers, they defended Berlin with various rarities. And if a good thing - why not use it!

[Catfish]

"Krokhoborami" ... Why only the Germans? Remember the seventh parade on Red Square, with what the soldiers marched with?

[Pane Kohanku]

Remember the seventh parade on Red Square, with what the soldiers marched with?

Yes, the famous photo with the Lewis machine guns. There is also some artillery from WWI.

[Catfish]

There were also Lebel rifles among the infantry, take a closer look.

[Ashes of Claes]

Quote: Sea Cat

wearing a Luftwaffe Air Gunner helmet.

Yes, not a "shooter", but an air defense gunner (or RLB - ReichsLuftshutzBund) then. "Shoot" is not the most basic thing).

In fact, the RLB schutzmanate was not only carried by the "gladiators" m38 (in your picture) on their heads. There were others as well. Here is the Czech m32, for example:

Here is M40:

I suspect there were others.

[Ashes of Claes]

Cool) I didn't even think about geolocation, thanks for the enlightenment.
For the film, my 10 out of 10.

[Pane Kohanku]

Cool) I didn't even think about geolocation, thanks for the enlightenment.
For the film, my 10 out of 10.

I visit this place too often!

[Sling cutter]

Quote: Pane Kohanku

This is Peter, st. Shkapina, corner with the Library. When the girl speaks, the wall of the bathhouse is visible behind her - it was built in the 1970s. If you look closely, you can see that the Hitler Youth are exercising with our 85mm antiaircraft gun.

Nikolay, greetings! Well, you're big-eyed, so Peter knew for sure!

[Pane Kohanku]

Nikolay, greetings! drinks Well, you're big-eyed, so Peter knew for sure!

Hello! Some of the houses there (just opposite the bathhouse) were demolished more than 12 years ago. And the shooting - yes, took place. There is another magical place nearby - the "Red Triangle" factory. There they systematically remove something from historical artifacts. In 2012, they even drove a steam locomotive to the factory tracks - I saw it personally. For filming.

[The leader of the Redskins]

Horrible. My daughter is 13 years old. Tall girl. And after all, in the case of a "correct" ideology, she could also be dressed in a uniform and trained to bring shells or turn the flywheels of sights ...
No! This should never happen again!

[Ashes of Claes]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

This should never happen again!

Already and, as usual, in the form of a farce)

[The leader of the Redskins]

Yes ... I remember this ... stupidity. We have a strange patriotism
To dress your children, still one year old, in uniform - yes! And over the hill, they immediately declare the Hitler Youth ...

[kalibr]

Quote: ee2100

Naturally to you and the corresponding attitude of a part of the community, this sub-site.

I didn't give a damn about her, this part. The dogs bark and the caravan moves on!

[vladcub]

That's right. You said yourself that pachyderm

[kalibr]

No, Svyatoslav, the point is not in thick skin, but in the fact that I simply ignore the opinion of insane people.

[kalibr]

Did you want to fight me somehow? Well, fight! Write an article better, more interesting and, so to speak, a white-washed black dog. How did they write there? "Bourgeois falsifiers angry at the USSR ..." So write something bright, bright, historical, historical. And there will be happiness for you and this part of your sub-site ... And they catch fools on weak. I do something that requires little work and gives a good effect. At my age, straining is harmful! Explained easily?

[Vladimir Popov]

No, well, a lot of words. Where are the grenades? Grenades for 75mm guns? And in the Reichswehr were then 75mm, not 77? And why are grenades for German guns produced in the USSR? Apparently Russian German grenades do better than the Germans! And they have two fingers on the asphalt, you want 76mm, you want 75, or maybe 77 if you ask.
Specifically in the "grenade case", because it can be called a scam only for the purpose of propaganda.
After the surrender of Germany, the Reichswehr hid from the registration and delivery of several hundred Russian trophy three-inch machines (there is a considerable amount, I have not seen accurate data). Since the production of ammunition in Germany was then under the strict control of the Allies, both in quantity and in nomenclature, the Reichswehr naturally turned to the largest manufacturer of three-inch shells. By the way, this manufacturer did not sign the Versailles Treaty and was not bound by restrictions on the supply of weapons to Germany. But the buyer wanted secrets, and the buyer's desire is law.
By the way, talking about the internal German inter-party war, the Comintern intrigues, etc. it would be nice to mention that throughout the 20s the USSR and Germany were military allies. Both had Poland as one of their main opponents. And against Poland we were friends not just strongly, but very strongly.
So the grenade case is an attempt to strengthen, under tight, unfriendly control, an ally. And everything else is lyrics ...

[Undecim]

In early December 1926, the influential British newspaper Manchester Guardian published articles on December 3 and 6 in which it sharply criticized the positions of the USSR and Germany.

Then on 4, 5, 6 and 7 December, similar materials appeared in the SPD newspaper Forverts.

In England, on December 3, 1926, articles appeared: "Loads of ammunition from Russia to Germany" and "Visits of officers to Russia." In a sensational vein and with eye-catching huge headlines on the front page, they reported on the existence of secret links between the German Reichswehr and the Red Army over the past five years.

This point is well described in the article "Russo-German Military Collaboration Düring the Weimar Republic" American historian (German by birth) Hans W. Gatzke.
In it, the author writes that all this was nothing more than newspaper hype, because for the intelligence services of Britain, France, the United States it was no longer a secret. In the same place, the author points out that after December 1926, Soviet-German cooperation only intensified.

[vladcub]

"it was no longer a secret" what a nafig secret if the Finns knew Soviet enterprises and reported it: to Warsaw, London and Paris. One must think that it was not the market gossips who were informed.

[Undecim]

Well Finns are Finns, but there is an amazing coincidence. It was during this time that Germany was making a titanic effort to return to the League of Nations. For the USSR, such a turn was extremely unprofitable. Therefore, the "information leak" could have been organized in the OGPU as well.

[DenVB]

8. Germany has invested 75 million marks in the military industry.

It is not very clear - in whose industry. According to the context of the article, one can assume that it was in the Soviet Union. If so, then the leadership of the USSR should be said bravo. By the way, this aspect of the issue is not covered at all. Who specifically negotiated and organized all this on our part?

[kalibr]

Quote: DenVB

Who specifically negotiated and organized all this on our part?

I'll have to look ... You saw at the end of the work. I only read the abstracts. We need to dig deeper.

[vladcub]

It can be suggested that from our side participated: Ordzhonikidze, People's Commissar, Chicherin, People's Commissariat and military consultants

[Undecim]

The tap assumption is far from the truth.

[vladcub]

I guessed logically. Unbeknownst to Sergo? I doubt. Also, military consultants should be

[Undecim]

Unbeknownst to Sergo? I doubt.

"Participation" and "unknowingly" are completely different categories. This is the first thing.
And the second thing. At the time of the beginning of cooperation, in 1922, Ordzhonikidze was the first secretary of the Transcaucasian Regional Committee of the RCP (b) and remained so until 1926.

[vladcub]

It would be more accurate to say: since 1926, with the knowledge of Sergo

[Undecim]

And since 1926, Ordzhonikidze had nothing to do with foreign policy and the army and hardly knew anything about this issue at all, because from 1926 to 1930 he was the People's Commissar of the Workers 'and Peasants' Inspection, the former Rabkrin.
He became People's Commissar of Heavy Industry in 1932, when cooperation with the Germans was already ending.

[vladcub]

Vic Nick. YOU dunk me well in a puddle.

[Undecim]

Yes, I didn’t dip you anywhere. You asked, I answered.

[vladcub]

Unfortunately, I am only reading this article today. And such material must be carefully read and considered.

[89268170588]

Actually, 75 mm is a French caliber. The Hans in the First World War had a caliber of 77 mm.

[ecolog]

I understand everything, but the Weimar Republic and the 3rd Reich are not the same thing. and in those years an attack was more likely to be expected from the former allies of the Entente or their Polish henchmen than from the Germans. Plus, the choice for military cooperation on both sides was not great. The Germans were under the restrictions of the "Versailles", and the other "Western partners" did not like the USSR for refusing tsarist debts and ideologically, all the same they encroached on the "sacred" - private property. And the military-industrial complex had to be developed at an accelerated pace.
And no one else produced high-tech products of the military-industrial complex.