Military Review

Joan of Arc and Gilles de Rais. Seven Sealed Mystery

145

Zhanna - Milla Jovovich is probably the best and most memorable among all the others shown to us on the movie screen


... and recruit yourself as many troops,
how much have you fallen
and horses, how many horses were,
and chariots as there were chariots;
and fight them on the plain,
and then we will surely overcome them.
And he listened to their voice and did so.

Third Book of Kings 20:25

Puzzles stories. So much has been written about Jeanne d'Arc that it is just right to open the topic of "Jeanne studies".

There is historical research, there are novels, there is a book from the ZhZL series, published in our country in the era of the USSR, there is a lot of things. AND…

Despite everything that has been written about her, no one even came a step closer to solving her secret.

Who is Gilles de Rais?

And this is the Marshal of France - her associate, and then the sorcerer, sodomite and criminal, killed by a court sentence. His fate is as mysterious and enigmatic as the fate of Jeanne herself. His trial raises as many questions as that of Jeanne herself, if not more. However, his secret also remains a mystery ...

Well, today we will try to tell VO readers (at the request of many of them) about some interesting points of view on the fate of these two historical characters at once.

Joan of Arc and Gilles de Rais. Seven Sealed Mystery

Perhaps the most accessible book about Jeanne for our reader will be this edition from the series "The Life of Remarkable People" by Anatoly Lewandovsky

We will start with the story of Joan of Arc, but we will not repeat it, since it is described in sufficient detail on Wikipedia.

Many prominent historians and writers were engaged in it, looked at it from different points of view, and could not say anything new until two prominent Russian PR specialists looked at it from their own angle: A.N. Chumikov and M.P. Bocharov.

We looked and concluded that it looks like the most real PR-project. Moreover, there is a huge number of biographical chronicles describing her life, but in fact, as before, there was no real information about who the girl Zhanna was, and now there is no, although documents have been sought for more than one century.

And something no one dares to fake them, as some would-be history buffs and sofa connoisseurs on VO like to write about it.

Well, there is no theme more fertile than the story of the heroine of the French people. After all, you only need to find one document - a certificate of baptism. But no, with all the perfect technique of forgeries, no one dared to take such a step in the past and does not dare today.

This means that not everything is simple with this.


Many artists have captured Jeanne on their canvases. For example, the painting "Jeanne at the Siege of Orleans" by Jules Eugene Lenepwe (1819-1898)

What is simple, and what have historians been doing for hundreds of years?

And they read what has already been written. And the more they read, the more absurdities and inconsistencies they find in documents and chronicles.

For example, it turned out that as many as nine poets and 22 royal chroniclers, that is, almost all chroniclers and troubadours who described the life of Joan, served with King Charles VII. These were his nine court poets and as many as 22 royal chroniclers.

So we will not talk about the fact that she was the illegitimate sister of Charles VII, a pupil of the Franciscan order, and even a canonical shepherdess from the village of Domremi, who, as a child, was moved by her mind on the basis of religious ecstasy.


Jeanne in the cinema. This is how the filmmakers of the 1948 American film saw her. Ingrid Bergman as Joan of Arc

All this could well have been.

Another thing is important: for some reason, the Great Virgin of France was captivated by Baron Gilles de Re, heir to the old and noble families from the west of France - Craon and Montmorency. Of course, barons are attracted to shepherdesses if they are young, handsome, have lovely bulges and are not deprived of intelligence, however, there was clearly something else here.

The question is - what exactly ?!

But before we try to answer him, let's see in what capacity he met her.

So, he married Catherine de Troir, from whose marriage he received a dowry of more than two million livres. That is, he was a very rich man. Not just rich, but very much!

With that kind of money, Gilles de Rais was quickly able to gain favor with the Dauphin Charles and get a place in his retinue. He lent the Dauphin with money and made him completely dependent on himself.

Recall that it was in those years that the Hundred Years War was going on, in which the French and British fiercely fought for the French throne, deciding who - whether the English kings descended from the maternal line of the descendants of Hugo Capeet, or the French representatives of the Valois dynasty, should sit on it ...

However, only the fighting itself was fiercely fought, but the war went on rather sluggishly. As they say - "nobody wanted to die." And you could rightfully serve the overlord only 40 days a year, or until you ran out of provisions.

That is why no more than a dozen major battles took place during the entire war, which together took no more than a week in duration.

But on the other hand, the position of the knightly nobility was very favorable: after all, any Frenchman, only because of his personal self-interest, could well declare that he recognized as king either the Dauphin - the son of Valois, or the king of England, the descendant of Queen Margaret of France and the legitimate daughter of Philip the Fair.

And many did so, and "went to bed as supporters of the Dauphin Charles, and woke up as subjects of King Edward."

Both vied with each other to offer tax benefits to the nobles, just to win them over to their side. Well, the French nobility simply blackmailed the Valois dynasty (it was nevertheless closer): and received land, loans, and high-profile titles for loyalty.


Gold franc of the French king John the Good, approx. 1350-1364 Obverse. Made in Poitiers, France (Metropolitan Museum, New York)


Gold Noble of King Edward III of England, c. 1361-1369 Obverse (Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York)

Interestingly, the English economy at that time was somewhat more developed than the French one. In addition, by the beginning of the XNUMXth century, almost all the nobility turned away from the Valois dynasty. Dauphin Karl had to make the most real predatory raids on his own cities or simply rich lords, who had been set aside from his power, in order at least in this way to get food or money for his usual way of life.


Here he is - Baron Gilles de Rais, the future "Bluebeard". Painting by Gule de Naval, 1835


Seal with the coat of arms of Gilles de Rais, 1429 Vendée Museum


American film 1948. Pay attention to the helmets - just class, real bascinets - "dog muzzles"! And the banner - everything is for sure!

And this is where the events known to us take place.

The girl Jeanne comes to the Dauphin, for some reason he takes her word for it and gives a detachment of soldiers with whom she goes to free Orleans, and Gilles de Rais becomes her right hand.

Question: who paid for these soldiers?

Professionals are expensive, and they were there. It was only later that all and sundry began to run into her detachment. And again, money was required to arm and feed all this "people".

But what if it was Gilles de Rais who made such an offer to Charles: to finance at his own expense or with the money that he would lend to the king, create a militia and recruit an army of professional soldiers?

But the most important thing is that a simple country girl will have to come to the Dauphin, who will prophesy that France will again become happy and prosperous as soon as the Dauphin Charles becomes her rightful king.

The army of Gilles de Rais strikes at those French lords who pay taxes to the British, and for everyone else it will be a lesson.

Well, the girl who hears the voices of the saints will be among the soldiers, the commoners like this, and they will gladly join such a militia, because there is simply no other paid job for them in the country.


And here you see a black cross on a golden background on the left? This is Gilles de Ré's field badge! These are the little things that the creators of this film paid attention to! 1948 American film


Before filming, Innu is dressed in armor. By the way, her armor exactly corresponds to the era!

But the most important thing in this undertaking will be that the ever-memorable Jacqueria ended not very long ago, the memory of the rebellious "Jacques" in the memory of the French nobility is still fresh, and no one wants a repetition of this horror. Therefore, she will have to choose: either go against the "holy girl" and the Dauphin, that is, choose the side of the British. Or the horrors of Jaqueria will be repeated, but the know this time will be manageable!
The fact that some such plan took place is confirmed by the fact that the church also supported it.

Soldiers are robbing monasteries, fear of God is no longer terrible, tithing is not paid? What's good about all this?

And then it turns out that there is a solution to this issue, and there is a person who will take this work upon himself?

To judge that there was a plan, and the church took an active part in it, helps us to look at the events that took place. After all, it was she who became the very source of information that spread the news about the Virgin throughout France!
Beggar monks, from whom there was nothing to take, carried letters in their robes, or even verbally passed orders to dioceses - to say in a sermon about this and that. And now from all the pulpits of the Kingdom of France sounded: “Rejoice, brothers and sisters of the good news! For the virgin virgin appeared and was given her power from the Lord, and she performed miracles, and she came to the Dauphin, and said that God had revealed to her ... ”And so on and so forth, everyone can further prolong this speech. The main thing here is that it was so, and besides, at the same time, almost all over France!

True, the question remains about the "voices" that Jeanne heard.

But what if she was given ordinary doping (Gilles de Ré was an alchemist, after all), and she just dreamed of all her saints and voices?

By the way, he also has an analgesic effect. And then you can not be surprised that Jeanne, wounded by an arrow, even if she did not reach the easy one, got up the very next day and appeared in front of the troops. "Witch, witch!" - Then the British shouted, realizing that an ordinary person is not capable of this.

Of course, one can say that "love for the Motherland prevails over everything"!


Luc Besson's film: the scene of the Battle of Path. The armor of the British is shown very well ...

In short, this plan was accepted. And it began to be fulfilled: the villans (peasants) and the urban poor with joy in their hearts went into the militia, and the troops of Gilles de Rey defeated several French feudal lords, pro-English, and even liberated several provinces from the British.

Thanks to this, a year later it was possible to crown Charles in Reims, and it is not clear for what Gilles de Rais received the high rank of Marshal of France and already officially became the commander-in-chief of the French army.


Coat of arms of Gilles de Rais after the royal award of the border with lilies


Coat of arms of Joan of Arc

And after the siege of Orleans was lifted, de Re received the right to add to his coat of arms - a black straight cross on a golden shield, royal heraldic lilies on an azure border - an honor that was awarded only to princes of the blood.

The patent letters authorizing this acquisition referred to his "lofty and meritorious services", the "great dangers and dangers" he faced, and "many other brave deeds."

But this was all Jeanne did?

She, however, was also given a coat of arms ...

So, in theory, all the participants in this "action" should have been satisfied.

Well, all of this really frightened the various dukes and counts there, and they joined the queue to kiss the monarch's hand, for they immediately felt its power.

The end of the war became a matter of time, and it was then that the king realized that he no longer needed both Marshal Gilles de Rais and his simple shepherdess (whoever she was).


Well, the fury of the contractions in his film is also shown perfectly!

The king simply did not want to repay debts, but he owed a lot.

And here again the church came to his aid. All over France, and it was the priests who suddenly started talking about the fact that God turned away from Jeanne and punished for her pride, after which Jeanne died for real, and she died, from the point of view of the king, very timely and successfully.

When the traitorous Burgundians took her prisoner and sold to the British for 10 thousand pounds, Gilles made great efforts to save his idol, gathered an army of mercenaries and moved to Rouen.

However, he was late: Jeanne had already been executed. Moreover, Henry VI, in order to cast a shadow on the newly made French king, ordered to burn her exactly as a witch, in order to say - "it was from the hands of a witch that he got the throne."

But he, too, was late, and it no longer played any role.

Interestingly, there is evidence that after the execution, Jeanne "resurrected" at least one more time, and it was Marshal Gilles de Rais who introduced a certain Jeanne d'Armoise as the "real Jeanne", who then also commanded a small military detachment.

For some reason, Jeanne's companions recognized her as real, but on the way to Paris she was detained by the soldiers of the king, who brought her to parliament. There she was tried for imposture, sentenced to punishment at the pillory, but for some reason they immediately released her when she confessed to imposture, after which she left for the estate to her husband.

That is, there was both an estate and a husband who was sitting at home, while his wife was leading the troops on the battlefield.


1989 French serial: “Joan of Arc. Power and Innocence. " Not impressive. Much more could have been expected from Jeanne's homeland!

After an unsuccessful attempt to slip a new "Jeanne" to the king, Gilles de Re went to the remote castle of Tiffauge, where he took up theatrical performances of Jeanne, and spent the rest of the time surrounded by alchemists and magicians, including the famous master of black magic Francesco Prelati.

It was this circumstance that was used by the Duke of Brittany, John V, who clearly lacked his land. Of course, it was dangerous to encroach on the hero who fought hand in hand with the "Deva". However, he apparently knew about the king's debts and understood that anyone who helped the monarch to free himself from the obligation to pay them would receive whatever he wanted, as long as only at someone else's expense!

And that's how it turned out!


1999 Canadian film. Starring Lily Sobieski. But somehow she is too ... feminine and tender. And long hair, by the way, was the only one she had. In other films, Jeanne was cut short.

In general, the duke created a real PR-group headed by the bishop of Nantes, Jean Maltrois.

Rumors began to spread about the missing children, whom Gilles de Rais had stabbed to death. There were complaints from the parents, although at first they were not given a move. And in the end, Gilles de René was arrested and even tortured (this is a Marshal of France), and he said under torture that he had killed 800 children, although only 150 were incriminated to him.

Well, then on October 26, 1440, by the verdict of the episcopal tribunal of Brittany, they first strangled him, then they kept him at the stake for a while and only after that he was given to relatives for burial.

But he was accused of only two counts - practicing alchemy and insulting a clergyman.

And for this at that time, it seems, did not burn?

After all, they did not burn one of the main witnesses for the accusation of the magician and sorcerer Francesco Prelati, and he got off with church repentance on bread and water, and also had to memorize the prayer to the Holy Virgin.

However, if the king himself was behind all this (and he should have known about such a process, he could not have known), then everything was possible.

And most importantly, everyone in Nantes was sincerely convinced that he killed exactly peasant children. That is, he was an "enemy of the people." And the unfortunate Bretons so sunk into their heads that later their descendants frightened their children.

True, when Charles Perrault at the beginning of the XNUMXth century came to Brittany for folklore, for some reason already murdered wives appeared in the stories of the peasants, and for some reason the baron himself was rewarded by a violent folk fantasy with a blue beard.


Perhaps the role of Jeanne Mille Jovovich was a success as well as possible!

Already in our time, in 1992, at the initiative of the writer-historian Gilbert Prutaud, a repeated trial was held in the case of Gilles de Rais, in which his good name was completely restored.

A study of the archives showed that there were no tortured peasant children and he was not engaged in bloody experiments. But not everyone accepted this new verdict, and most importantly, it is believed that this court was incompetent to reconsider the case of the XNUMXth century.

Now, let's think about this: it is not true that PR (or in Russian - “public relations”) is only a product of our industrial era.

The first time this term was used back in 1807 in the United States by American President T. Jefferson in one of his messages to Congress. But "PR" itself was known long before that and manifested itself in announcements on the walls, and in the construction of majestic pyramids, palaces and temples, in the clothes of the pharaohs and medieval nobility, in the manner of communication, customs and traditions. After all, the essence of this "action" is to achieve "good word of mouth" about something or someone and to change the behavior of those around them by means of this very "good word".


Execution of Gilles de Rais. Manuscript with illustrations. National Library of France, Paris

It has been proven that in order to provide informational impact on society, it is necessary:

- creation of organizations capable of leading mass companies and uniting people with a single impulse;

- the use of emotional symbols and catchy, catchy slogans;

- carrying out actions that have a strong emotional impact on ordinary people;

- getting ahead of your opponents in a favorable interpretation for yourself, because the one who said the first is right;

- influencing the opinion of large masses of people through various activities.

All this is theory, as outlined in modern textbooks.

But if we turn our eyes to a whole series of historical events, then, undoubtedly, we will see that all of them in fact are nothing more than well thought out and conducted PR campaigns. So Jeanne d'Arc was one of the tools of this thoughtful PR company, and Gilles de Rey was its organizer, inspirer and sponsor. That's why they were both killed!
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  1. Xlor
    Xlor 3 October 2021 05: 30
    +22
    the story of the heroine of the French people

    I would add that by the time described, the French people, as a people, had not yet taken shape. Nor did the English people work out. There were just subjects of the French king. As well as the subjects of the king of England ...
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 3 October 2021 07: 36
      +11
      The French people as an ethnocultural community at that time quite developed for themselves, although then they did not include some peripheral areas such as Brittany.
      The French people as a nation were in the final stages of their formation.
      The subjects were simply gone.
      It is enough to read Froissard where there are many examples of how French knights in the service of the English king separately emphasized that they were French.
      1. Xlor
        Xlor 3 October 2021 08: 07
        +7
        French knights in the service of the English king separately emphasized that they were French

        These are the subtleties of translation. Rather, they emphasized that they were subjects of the French king or came from a particular locality within the domain of the French king. Already after the Hundred Years War, they have, more or less, formed into the people ... There was Gascony, Normandy and Bretonne. Plus, various margraves on the Franco-Spanish border that didn't even understand who they were ethnically. Today's Catalonia is a prime example. Germans? Spaniards? Or the French, who did not work out ... Or Andrra ...
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 3 October 2021 08: 26
          +6
          They emphasized that they were just French, just in the service of the English king. Froissard's English translation is exactly the same. For example, the circumstances of the capture of John the Good.
          The existence of a periphery like Brittany, not included in a single whole ethnically and culturally, does not in any way refute the fact of the existence of the French people at that time in the vast territory of what was then France. By the way, the Gascons considered themselves French. This is evident in the same episode with John.
          "Just subjects" There was no king at all then. This is an absolutist concept, and we have feudalism.
          1. Xlor
            Xlor 3 October 2021 08: 59
            +7
            Quote: Engineer
            They emphasized that they were French.

            What kind of French they can be, if some of them spoke different dialects of Germanic languages, and others in the same dialects of Gaelic. And the third and even more so - in Latin ...

            Quote: Engineer
            just in the service of the king of England

            A Frenchman, in the service of the English king, is a traitor. They did not consider themselves as such. It's just that they are subjects of the French king in the service of the king of England (imagine Marshal Zhukov in the service of Hitler. wink )


            Quote: Engineer
            In Froissard's English translation

            I am not familiar with this person, but let me ask a question: from what and into what language did he translate?
            - from Old French to the same, not formed Old English?
            - from Vulgar Latin to Anglo-Saxo-Uto-Scandinavian-Gaelic?
            - if it's Old French, then from which region is it in France? What are there more Germanisms or Latinisms?
            - the same and vulgar Latin. Who spoke it? Cultured Germans or descendants of the Gauls?

            Quote: Engineer
            The existence of Brittany, which is not included in a single whole ethnically and culturally, does not in any way refute the fact of the existence of the French people.

            Ethnic and cultural plan implies a single language standard and a sense of a single commonality. And this community did not go beyond the village of residence.

            Quote: Engineer
            By the way, the Gascons considered themselves French.

            Gascons are Basques who live in France. Here's an example of another translation ...

            Quote: Engineer
            "Just subjects" There was no king at all then. This is an absolutist concept, and we have feudalism

            Okay, I'm removing the word "subjects" and replacing it with "vassals". So be it. Does it change anything?
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 3 October 2021 09: 25
              +7
              Not familiar with this person
              It's hard to get to know him, he died more than 500 years ago. Froissart did not translate, he wrote his "Chronicles" in the middle French language
            2. Engineer
              Engineer 3 October 2021 09: 44
              +4
              Lord, what dialects of Germanic languages ​​in France of that period?
              The last documents in Germanic were written sometime in the 10th century. The Germanic element has been completely assimilated and has become a substrate.
              The medieval French spoke dialects of the Old French-Romance language. For example, Jeanne grew up on the border with Lorraine, there are interrogation protocols according to which you can restore her dialect. Nevertheless, it was understood in Paris and elsewhere.
              Froissart wrote in Old French. Google the title of his work and try to translate using knowledge of Germanic languages.
              The Gascons are a mixture of Basques, Goths, Francs, which are filled with the French element of Aquitaine. By the time of the meeting, these are the French. Just with some claim to identity. At Froissard, whom you have not mastered, they directly call themselves French.
              A Frenchman in the service of an English king is a Frenchman faithful to his oath, since Aquitaine was a long-standing possession of the English kings.
              He is so not a traitor in the then system of values ​​that the French king chose to surrender to such a compatriot, rather than an Englishman.
              I do not know what your ethnic and cultural plan implies. I know that there is no need for a single standard language for the existence of a people. This can only be realized with a centralized universal education. That is, not earlier than the 19th century. A common language of communication and / or similar dialects is sufficient. The then French had it. As for the sense of community, it was also among the French of that time and reflected in the works of medieval historians. But you, alas, have not read them.
              1. Xlor
                Xlor 3 October 2021 10: 54
                +2
                for the existence of the people, a single standard language is not needed

                I laughed long and merrily!
                1. ZanderDe
                  ZanderDe 3 October 2021 15: 21
                  +3
                  For example, the Swiss.) Geneva is full of Swiss who do not speak German and Italian, although they seem to be the official languages ​​of the country. And in general, a couple of hundred thousand speaks Romansh. So there is a single standard language in Switzerland, or the presence of as many as 4 does not prevent the Swiss from being a people ?!) In addition, that very German differs greatly from canton to canton, which is even a proverb ..)
                  1. Xlor
                    Xlor 3 October 2021 16: 27
                    +6
                    the presence of as many as 4 does not prevent the Swiss from being a people ?!

                    The Swiss are not a people, but Switzerland is a confederation united by common interests. There Francophon wanted to spit on the German or Italophon. And all together they wanted to spit on the Romans ... As soon as common interests disappear, this very Switzerland will crumble like a children's building in a sandbox ... Something like that ... wink
                    1. vladcub
                      vladcub 4 October 2021 14: 46
                      +1
                      "united by common interests" in exactly this position: Belgium, they are already talking about the section on ethnic grounds
                      1. Xlor
                        Xlor 4 October 2021 15: 52
                        0
                        exactly in this position Belgium

                        It's like that! Only in Belgium, unlike Switzerland, there are no common interests at all ...
            3. nemez
              nemez 5 October 2021 09: 11
              -2
              Vulgar Latin, yes, you have a kind of Mosk. A vulgar Russian language, or an abandoned Mova. Or something else ?!
              1. Xlor
                Xlor 5 October 2021 10: 49
                +2
                Vulgar Latin ... Vulgar Russian language, or abandoned mova

                To get started, start your education with Wikipedia.
                And even better with the Primer ...
      2. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 3 October 2021 10: 42
        +4
        Many British noblemen at that time still bore quite French surnames, whose ancestors came to England with the Duke of Normandy.
        1. Xlor
          Xlor 3 October 2021 10: 57
          +2
          Many British nobles at that time still bore completely French surnames, whose ancestors came to England with the Duke of Normandy.

          The Duke of Norman, as I recall, was a Scandinavian ...
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 3 October 2021 11: 11
            +5
            Guillaume Bastard was certainly a descendant of Rolland the Pedestrian, but he was not a Scandinavian.
            1. Xlor
              Xlor 3 October 2021 11: 27
              +6
              but he was not a Scandinavian

              The most real granddaughter of the Viking bandit Rolland. Only now it is not clear who he was - Norwegian or Swede ...
            2. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 3 October 2021 19: 35
              +1
              Klyosov would argue with you. He had a haplogroup like Rolf (Rollon). I don't care what they said in local French, they were staunch Christians and were citizens of the French crown.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 3 October 2021 19: 47
                0
                Do you think the user "Chlorine" is aware of Klesov's theory?
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 3 October 2021 19: 59
                  +3
                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  Is "Chlorine" aware of Klesov's theory?

                  I do not know.
                  I'm interested in something else.
                  The author called Jeanne a PR project.
                  I am ready to hack to death on this topic, but I need an opponent. I do not consider Jeanne a PR project.
                  I am ready to defend this point of view. smile
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 3 October 2021 20: 05
                    +2
                    I do not consider Jeanne a PR project.
                    Me too. It's just that the author of fucking doesn't understand such a study as "historical psychology"
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 3 October 2021 20: 14
                      +4
                      And where is the line between "PR project" and "Non-PR project"?

                      There may be events and a symbol that is overgrown with legends. One may not contradict the other.
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 3 October 2021 20: 30
                        +2
                        The edge in such a dumb study as "historical psychology"
                      2. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 3 October 2021 22: 11
                        +2
                        Quote: Korsar4
                        And where is the line between "PR project" and "Non-PR project"?

                        The PI-Ar project assumes the artificiality of the constructs included in it. That is, they make of a specific historical character what he really was not, they form public opinion.
                        Jeanne was not such a project, and could not be for many reasons. It is unique, exclusive, its phenomenon has no analogues of a comparable scale in the history of Europe, not in the past, not in the future. For this reason alone, such a project could not be artificially created in the XNUMXth century, since all attempts to create its analogues in subsequent times did not lead to success.
                      3. Filxnumx
                        Filxnumx 8 October 2021 21: 40
                        0
                        since all attempts to create its analogs in subsequent times did not lead to success.

                        Have mercy, sir! It is like demanding virginity from a rape victim. You cannot enter the same river twice.
                        And at your leisure, ponder the following logical chain: (typical, native) = real - not real = (artificial, atypical, unique)
                  2. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 3 October 2021 22: 01
                    +2
                    In general, few people understand it. At the same time, it makes sense to take into account the fact that the text of the article was written a relatively long time ago and it was in the field of historical psychology that certain shifts have occurred since then.
              2. Xlor
                Xlor 3 October 2021 20: 20
                +2
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                Do you think the user "Chlorine" is aware of Klesov's theory?

                I heard ...
            3. Xlor
              Xlor 3 October 2021 20: 18
              -1
              I don't care what they said in local French

              Can you explain what "local French" is? wink
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 3 October 2021 20: 34
                0
                And what? Do you express your opinion about the European Middle Ages without knowing who Froissart is?
              2. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 3 October 2021 23: 13
                +1
                Can. Necessary?
          2. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
            Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 3 October 2021 21: 14
            +2
            You are wrong - he was a real Scandinavian.
        2. TermNachTer
          TermNachTer 3 October 2021 19: 04
          0
          Well, the relationship with the Scandinavians is very distant there. Already three or four generations have lived in France. So, they are the same Scandinavians as the British)))
  2. prior
    prior 4 October 2021 11: 49
    0
    the French people, as a people, have not yet taken shape. Nor did the English people work out.

    On the other hand, democratic values ​​were already fully formed then and are still in effect.
    Namely, the main "values" are power and money.
  3. vladcub
    vladcub 4 October 2021 14: 38
    +1
    I agree, at that time there was not yet: French, English or some other people.
  • fiberboard
    fiberboard 3 October 2021 05: 38
    +15
    The article was - Gilles de Rais was ruined by an economic dispute with the bishop. He was not any maniac or pervert, just the Catholic ministers were stronger. And also Gilles de Ré rashly agreed to the ecclesiastical court, although he could have chosen a secular one. Well, there the Catholic priests were "carried away" like Ostap in 12 chairs. What the Catholic ministers of the church are can be seen even now, from the periodically erupting scandals in homosexuality and pedophilia. It is unlikely that in those days they were very different from those of today.
    1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
      Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 3 October 2021 21: 15
      -7
      Don't screw up Catholicism! This is a strict and strong faith. Or are you a supporter of Judaism or Islam ??? Got it.
      1. Andrey Chizhevsky
        Andrey Chizhevsky 4 October 2021 06: 49
        +4
        Yeah .. Especially if you take such a side of the "strict and strong" faith as the Inquisition ... laughing
        1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
          Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 4 October 2021 08: 12
          -7
          In due time it was necessary also! And they burned a lot then ??? These are all malicious slander of Jews or Muslims, however.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 4 October 2021 08: 24
            +1
            And they burned a lot then ???
            From 6 to 10 thousand victims in the entire history of the existence of Sanctum Officium
            1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
              Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 4 October 2021 12: 22
              -2
              Well, quite a bit! I expected an order of magnitude more. So, excuse me, these inquisitors were humanists! And then they made the fiend of hell out of them. I said and I say - these are the intrigues of the enemies of faith.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 4 October 2021 12: 45
                +1
                But this only applies to the Sanctum Officium. The Spanish Inquisition is a separate organization created for other tasks
          2. Andrey Chizhevsky
            Andrey Chizhevsky 4 October 2021 10: 19
            +2
            And more than our Ivan Vasilyevich who is the Terrible ... And not up to 10 thousand - as they say. According to some sources, up to 400 thousand - throughout Europe where the Vatican's hand reached And the destruction of heresy has nothing to do with it - the property of the executed went to the benefit of the Vatican, so don't idealize Catholicism.
      2. fiberboard
        fiberboard 4 October 2021 07: 19
        +4
        Catholicism has long discredited itself, at least by the popes of Cossus and Borgia. One was a bandit, a pirate and a rapist before the election, and on the papal throne he continued to do the same, for which he was eventually turned out of the popes. The second sold positions left and right, after which he poisoned the acquirers of positions and again sold these positions. In addition, he cohabited with his daughter. As a result, he poisoned himself by mistake, confusing the jugs with wine. If it were not for the mores of the Catholic prelates, there would be no Martin Luther and Jan Huss. There would have been no reformation and no Protestants if the fathers of Catholicism had lived according to the commandments of the Lord. Orthodoxy in this respect favorably differs, although of course there were also money-grubbingers of the worldly, but still there were more companions and people of the true faith. During the Mongol-Tatar yoke and the Time of Troubles, the church played one of the decisive roles in the liberation of Russia.
        1. vl903
          vl903 4 October 2021 10: 00
          +1
          Quote: fiberboard
          Catholicism has long discredited itself, at least by the popes of Cossus and Borgia. One was a bandit, a pirate and a rapist before the election, and on the papal throne he continued to do the same, for which he was eventually turned out of the popes. The second sold positions left and right, after which he poisoned the acquirers of positions and again sold these positions. In addition, he cohabited with his daughter. As a result, he poisoned himself by mistake, confusing the jugs with wine. If it were not for the mores of the Catholic prelates, there would be no Martin Luther and Jan Huss. There would have been no reformation and no Protestants if the fathers of Catholicism had lived according to the commandments of the Lord. Orthodoxy in this respect favorably differs, although of course there were also money-grubbingers of the worldly, but still there were more companions and people of the true faith. During the Mongol-Tatar yoke and the Time of Troubles, the church played one of the decisive roles in the liberation of Russia.
          did not the Orthodox Church recognize the khans as tsars and did not forbid opposing the divine ministers?
          1. Andrey Chizhevsky
            Andrey Chizhevsky 4 October 2021 10: 23
            +1
            No, it didn’t proclaim it.
            1. vl903
              vl903 4 October 2021 10: 41
              -1
              ok. recognized khans as kings?
              1. Andrey Chizhevsky
                Andrey Chizhevsky 4 October 2021 14: 27
                -1
                No, there were no tsars in Russia at that time. There were princes - and if a super - duper prince - so the great Tsar in the full sense of this word became Ivan IV. Even his father, Vasily III, could not yet be fully called tsar.
                1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
                  Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 4 October 2021 14: 41
                  -1
                  What's the difference - a king or not a king, acting. king, etc., the main thing that led, and the rest is all garbage! Do you agree?
                  1. Andrey Chizhevsky
                    Andrey Chizhevsky 4 October 2021 14: 53
                    0
                    No, I don’t agree. The title is not just given. Why? Why didn't Peter just remain a tsar - but became an emperor? So there is a difference in the grand duke and the reign, too. Since the royal title is from Byzantium. And then it was very significant. Elizaveta Petrovna quarreled with the French kingdom just because in Paris they did not want to call her "imperiatrix" ...
                2. vl903
                  vl903 4 October 2021 15: 35
                  -1
                  rightly, ours were princes for the church, and the khans were kings from God, therefore the khans did not touch them.
                  1. Andrey Chizhevsky
                    Andrey Chizhevsky 4 October 2021 15: 43
                    0
                    No, not like that. Khan is the Turkic name of the ruler. The royal title is from the Byzantine Empire, which came from the Roman Empire. So during the yoke there were no kings. There were only princes. And the church never called the khans "kings" - why on earth? With what kind of foolishness the prince could call himself a king if he was (and his principality) a tributary of the Horde?
          2. fiberboard
            fiberboard 4 October 2021 17: 30
            +2
            The great Russian saint Sergei of Radonezh blessed Dmitry Donskoy for the Battle of Kulikovo. Metropolitan Alexy raised Dmitry Donskoy, and actually ruled the Moscow principality in his childhood. Patriarch Hermagen was starved to death by the Poles, but did not surrender, he blessed the people to fight. The Poles did not manage to take the Trinity-Sergeevskaya Lavra, as did the Englishmen the Solovetsky Monastery. I just remembered this just like that. There were, of course, devotees in catalyticism. The same Nicolaus Copernicus led the defense of the monastery from the Teutons. But in Orthodoxy they did not trade in indulgences, there was no inquisition, they did not bless the crusades against other Christians.
        2. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
          Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 4 October 2021 12: 27
          -2
          Someone else's family - darkness! Who knows for sure whether he lived with his daughter or not?!? ... Yes, no one. Again, all this is a malicious slander against Christianity. Our enemies did not sleep and do not sleep!
          1. Andrey Chizhevsky
            Andrey Chizhevsky 4 October 2021 14: 32
            0
            But why are you, sir, so openly "drowning" for Catholicism? You are not a case from the press service of a dad from the city of Rome? laughing
            1. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
              Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 4 October 2021 14: 38
              0
              Or maybe counterintelligence or other services from that city, why not?
    2. Andrey Chizhevsky
      Andrey Chizhevsky 3 October 2021 21: 55
      +2
      I think it's much simpler. I don't know why Gilles Re decided that he was better than Jacques de Molay when it comes to royal debts. That's all, the loan has been repaid. laughing
  • mihalych
    mihalych 3 October 2021 05: 41
    +12
    Interesting look. Who, then, was shown to the people as Jeanne? I've heard a lot about Gilles de Rais. His name has become a household name throughout Europe.
    And the best Zhanna would be Churikova. Remember the episodes from the movie "Inception".
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 3 October 2021 05: 56
      +5
      Yeah ... smile Girl do you dance? ... I dance ... And I sing.
    2. Konnick
      Konnick 3 October 2021 06: 44
      +19
      And the best Zhanna would be Churikova. Remember the episodes from the movie "Inception".

      I even thought it would be better if Panfilov made a film about Zhanna than about Pasha Stroganova. This is where the obsession is in the eyes, not hysterical, but the obsession in the soul.


      And doping has nothing to do with it. You can adjust yourself, the main thing is to believe. And never, and no one will seriously scientifically refute the generally accepted story of Jeanne, even the Vatican canonized her.

      One of the first images of Jeanne and Churikov looks more like this Virgin of Orleans.
      1. Crowe
        Crowe 3 October 2021 07: 27
        +19
        I like our Jeanne performed by Churikova more than in foreign films. It has always been interesting, but what did Jeanne really look like? In your image she with long hair, as in the drawing of Clement de Fokemberg on the margins of the register of the Paris Parliament, 1429 , made on the day that the news of the French victory at Orleans arrived in Paris. Although Fockemberg never saw her in person, this is almost the only surviving image taken during her lifetime.
        The head of the statue, discovered in 1820 in the ruins of the Church of Saint Maurice in Orleans, has long been considered a depiction of Joan of Arc.
        1. Crowe
          Crowe 3 October 2021 07: 37
          +12
          However, in the Hermitage of Notre-Dame-de-Bermont there are frescoes on which (according to some researchers and biographers) possible images of Jeanne have been preserved
          The girl is dressed in gray, with high stockings, in men's clothing. There are two very important written sources about the life of Joan of Arc. The first is the Procès de Condamnation, the record of the trial in which she was convicted. The second is the re-trial protocol in which she was rehabilitated, Procès de Rehabilitation. This retrial included a series of investigations conducted some twenty years after her death. The first source consists mainly of interrogations of Joan of Arc. The second contains the testimonies of many eyewitnesses who personally knew Joan of Arc. In these documents, she is described as a short, sturdy woman with black hair. She was wearing men's clothes (in fact, this was the main reason for her death sentence), and her hair was cut short around the entire perimeter, just above the ears, like modern fashionable men.
        2. The leader of the Redskins
          The leader of the Redskins 3 October 2021 08: 32
          +14
          To be honest, after watching the film "Inception" as a child, I was looking for a film about "Jeanne Dark" (which was filmed in the film) for a long time, so that I could watch it too!)))
          I was very upset to learn that there is none ...
        3. Usher
          Usher 3 October 2021 20: 23
          -1
          You yourself are not funny from such "portraits"? Drawings of the Middle Ages, in general, must be taken with caution.
        4. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
          Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 4 October 2021 12: 30
          0
          My children drew better before school! How and what can be understood from these figures? ...
    3. Markus wolf
      Markus wolf 3 October 2021 18: 44
      +2
      Yeah ... Thank you for remembering! And the truth is, a very colorful image of Jeanne turned out in Inna ... !!!
  • ee2100
    ee2100 3 October 2021 05: 45
    +6
    Surprised by this story, it remains only to bring a connection with the present time.
  • Darkness
    Darkness 3 October 2021 05: 50
    +5
    I wonder what the French would say about such a version? Olegovich plus ➕
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 3 October 2021 06: 02
    +9
    Joan of Arc is under doping. Now it is impossible to prove and disprove. I don't really like this idea.

    And her voices have been heard before. How much can you trust Mark Twain.
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 3 October 2021 07: 03
      +6
      Doping is a double-edged sword. It can lead to fighting courage, or maybe to panic.But if, as the best friend of the Soviet commies Vyacheslav Olegovich Shpakovsky hints, it was about hallucinogenic drugs / tinctures (most likely), then Zhannochka could have imagined fire-breathing dragons right during the battle, the Devil in disguise a giant lilac boar and all of that kind, capable of putting a girl into a state of hysteria and influencing her escape from battle.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 3 October 2021 07: 08
        +9
        I heard a version about a peculiar form of epilepsy.

        In general, there are traditions everywhere. We have got accustomed to alcohol.
        And somewhere fly agaric or lophophora.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 3 October 2021 10: 56
          +6
          And somewhere fly agaric or lophophora.

          The question is who likes what. laughing
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 3 October 2021 11: 45
            +6
            And here they ruffled the hemp - and nothing. Even the insignia was - "Honored Hemp Grower".
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 3 October 2021 12: 37
              +4
              "Honored Hemp Grower"

              This is impressive! good
              Did this sign look something like this?
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 3 October 2021 13: 55
                  +3
                  Seryozha, I just now, from you, learned that there is some kind of "Ozone", but in general, I am not interested in what it contains. request
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 3 October 2021 14: 51
                    +2
                    I believe. But you can see a picture of the icon there. However, in other places too.
            2. Region-25.rus
              Region-25.rus 3 October 2021 13: 25
              +3
              And we have ruffled hemp - and nothing
              well, hemp for hemp and the one that "blows" as far as I remember different varieties))))
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 3 October 2021 13: 34
                +3
                Quote: Region-25.rus
                And we have ruffled hemp - and nothing
                well, hemp for hemp and the one that "blows" as far as I remember different varieties))))

                Several different parts of the plant))
                1. Region-25.rus
                  Region-25.rus 3 October 2021 14: 58
                  +3
                  Several different parts of the plant))
                  thanks! I'm in the (big) course laughing
                  1. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 3 October 2021 15: 14
                    +1
                    I was mostly speeding up laughing
                    1. Region-25.rus
                      Region-25.rus 3 October 2021 15: 19
                      +1
                      so as not to be unfounded)))) - https://b.semenarniya-seeds.site/tales/vidi_konopli wassat
                      1. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 3 October 2021 15: 30
                        0
                        It's not mine)))
                      2. Region-25.rus
                        Region-25.rus 3 October 2021 15: 32
                        +1
                        It's not mine))
                        I mean there are industrial varieties. From which hemp and hemp oil were originally made (there is such) and there are other varieties. And not only "tops and roots")) -
                        Several different parts of the plant))
                      3. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 3 October 2021 15: 33
                        +1
                        And industrial smoking is prohibited?
                      4. Region-25.rus
                        Region-25.rus 3 October 2021 15: 34
                        +1
                        And industrial smoking is prohibited?
                        you can smoke and bamboo)) And even small tea leaves mixed with an oak leaf (there was such a thing in practice). As far as I know, there will be no effect. Or very, very weak. wassat
                      5. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 3 October 2021 16: 53
                        +1
                        Then bespont laughing
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 3 October 2021 14: 52
        +3
        This is now being taken out for technical use. And nothing else.
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 3 October 2021 13: 33
    +4
    Quote: Korsar4
    I heard a version about a peculiar form of epilepsy.

    In general, there are traditions everywhere. We have got accustomed to alcohol.
    And somewhere fly agaric or lophophora.

    And somewhere tinctures of fly agarics on alcohol laughing
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 3 October 2021 14: 53
      +4
      What you can't do to go berserk.
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 3 October 2021 15: 30
        +2
        Circumcisions, for example what
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 3 October 2021 17: 52
          +2
          This is probably a different life strategy.
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 3 October 2021 18: 00
            +2
            Diametrically opposite)).
    2. Catfish
      Catfish 3 October 2021 15: 17
      +5
      Hi Albert! hi
      I did not find the badge "Honorary Tinter of Fly agaric", but the real breastplate of the "Konopleveda" was found. laughing drinks
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 3 October 2021 15: 29
        +3
        Greetings, Constantine! hi
        Sorry, the coca leaf handler icon only exists in Spanish laughing
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 3 October 2021 15: 35
          +3
          In this matter, symbolism is important, you can do without knowing the language. wink
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 3 October 2021 17: 53
        +2
        Here. But your design isn't bad either.
  • Moskovit
    Moskovit 3 October 2021 09: 08
    +5
    Yes, it's ridiculous. The girl who ate mushrooms led thousands of men. To be believed, you have to live like this, and not periodically fall into euphoria. I happened to meet such people. This is impressive.
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 3 October 2021 13: 37
      +3
      Quote: Moskovit
      Yes, it's ridiculous. The girl who ate mushrooms led thousands of men. To be believed, you have to live like this, and not periodically fall into euphoria. I happened to meet such people. This is impressive.

      Yes, I myself lived like this at one time - from round to first, from first to round fellow And everything is mixed with alcohol. Everyone was impressed until he got a heart attack at 42 after a two-year sting laughing
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 3 October 2021 14: 22
        +3
        "Come in large numbers, damned drug addicts!" laughing
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 3 October 2021 15: 14
          +2
          Koasnodar is not rubber negative
        2. depressant
          depressant 3 October 2021 22: 08
          +2
          Yeah ... the theme of drugs played, sang and danced wassat )))
          And I dug up a completely different version of the origin of Jeanne. I'll explain it tomorrow, if the topic does not fade away. Today is a bad day.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 3 October 2021 23: 13
            +1
            Bad in terms of health?
            Or did the autumn colors not please this year?
            As Moscow Tsar Sadko asks.
            1. depressant
              depressant 4 October 2021 07: 27
              +2
              Tsar Sadko asks.

              Neither one nor the other.
              I felt dislike for myself for getting involved in the discussion of ethnic problems, and immediately got tired. Something nasty about that.
      2. Moskovit
        Moskovit 3 October 2021 16: 24
        +1
        And yet you put many kings on the throne?)) How many fortresses did you take?)
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 3 October 2021 16: 55
          +2
          Myself, beloved, on my own, and I took the fortress of a healthy lifestyle fellow
  • Catfish
    Catfish 3 October 2021 10: 26
    +6
    Sergey, good morning. smile
    And how reliable in general is all the information about Jeanne and the time when she lived. Any event immediately became overgrown with rumors, including obvious fables, each retelling added his own and the result was such a mess in which there was no way to dig into the truth.
    I read the article, all the comments, remembered that I had read about it earlier, and there was a clear impression that no one would ever know the truth. So let the French figure out their own history, and we should figure it out with ours.
    Yes, and in general the question arises "was there a boy?"
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 3 October 2021 11: 49
      +4
      Good morning, Constantine!

      Agree. After a while, a lot goes into the realm of legends - and show your imagination as best you can.
    2. Moskovit
      Moskovit 3 October 2021 16: 23
      +3
      France is also a country with an unpredictable past)
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 3 October 2021 17: 16
        +2
        I believe that she is not alone. smile
      2. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
        Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 3 October 2021 21: 26
        0
        If the allies had not landed on 6-06-1944, then we would eventually have reached the English Channel. Then the history of France would have been corrected in Moscow at GlavPUR and there would have been no more questions. The CPSU (b) did not tolerate an unpredictable past. Everything was corrected in the right direction from the point of view of the class struggle. And the wrong past could then create an unpredictable future. And we needed it?!?
  • Fat
    Fat 3 October 2021 21: 31
    +4
    hi Sergey.
    Quote: Korsar4
    And her voices have been heard before
    ... It is quite possible that mild poisoning with sprouts is not uncommon in those days. Glitches available.
    And that's right, you can assume different things ... yes
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 3 October 2021 07: 32
    +6
    Perhaps the role of Jeanne Mille Jovovich was a success as well as possible!

    the best Joan of Arc is dazzling Inna Churikova in the film "Inception", 1970.

    This is just a miracle.
    1. motorized rifle
      motorized rifle 3 October 2021 16: 15
      +1
      It seems for Shpakovsky that Soviet cinema existed only in the form of propaganda. but in fact, even according to Stanislavsky, though not, but the drama of Jeanne, performed by Churikova, simply shocked at the time
      By the way, I liked the style of the article, a la historical investigation.
      Remember the late Alexander Ivanov, poet, satirist and parodist? He hosted the TV show "Around the laugh", popularly "Around hee hee". So in one of his reprises, he said that he supposedly planned to write a cycle of parodies on the theme of adultery, based on the poems of various poets, including those for children. Everybody found some lines for this opportunity, but Korney Chukovsky was not given in any way. But once Ivanov took "Moidodyr" and Eureka! These lines: "Suddenly, from my mother's bedroom, bow-legged and lame, runs out ...." Likewise, dear Vyacheslav Olegovich, could not help showing his "life credo - Always!" I was just sure ... and I was not mistaken! These are the lines:
      That is, he was an "enemy of the people."

      I applaud while standing! I hope together with Olgovich!
  • Crowe
    Crowe 3 October 2021 07: 47
    +12
    So much has been written about Jeanne d'Arc that it is just right to open the topic of "Jeanne studies".
    There is historical research, there are novels, there is a book from the ZhZL series, published in our country in the era of the USSR, there is a lot of things. AND…
    Despite everything that has been written about her, no one even came a step closer to solving her secret.
    It remains to agree with Régine Pernoux, a French researcher of the circumstances of her life, that Joan of Arc is “an inexhaustible person about whom everything will never be said”.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 3 October 2021 08: 49
      +9
      In my opinion, Régine Pernoux fictionalized her books too much. hi
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 3 October 2021 08: 38
    +9
    Perhaps the most accessible book about Jeanne for our reader will be this edition from the series "The Life of Remarkable People" by Anatoly Lewandovsky
    Perhaps the most accessible today will be this
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 3 October 2021 09: 01
    +9

    Gold franc of the French king John the Good, approx. 1350-1364 Obverse. Made in Poitiers, France (Metropolitan Museum, New York)
    The minting of this coin was one of the reasons for the beginning of the Jacquerie.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 3 October 2021 09: 14
    +7
    So, he married Catherine de Troire, from whose marriage he received a dowry of more than two million livres.
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, where did such fantastic sums come from again ???
    1. kalibr
      3 October 2021 10: 28
      +4
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      fantastic amounts ???

      Anton! The first time this material was published in 2010. It is clear that I took it from somewhere. But the article is not scientific. Therefore, there are no links to the source. For 11 years, I somehow forgot where exactly ...
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 3 October 2021 10: 44
        +5
        Vyacheslav Olegovich, sixty years before the events described, France paid a ransom for John the Good equal to 3 million livres. At that time, this was equal to three annual income of the entire kingdom! And suddenly, 60 years later, 2 durillons as a dowry ???
        1. kalibr
          3 October 2021 11: 16
          +4
          Anton! I wrote everything to you. I am not making up the numbers.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 3 October 2021 12: 12
            +4
            I am not making up the numbers
            I have no doubts. It's just that in the coinage and finance of the Middle Ages, I understand a little better than you. Although worse than I would like.
            1. kalibr
              3 October 2021 16: 23
              +2
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              I understand a little better than you

              That's good. Well, try to write about it. I have already written to you about this. I personally will only be glad ...
        2. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 3 October 2021 21: 33
          +4
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          ransom for John the Good equal to 3 million livres.

          I would venture to suggest that the ransom for the king was exclusively in the form of coins (in extreme cases, ingots of precious metals), and the dowry to the newly made Madame de Retz consisted to a large extent of immovable and movable property.
      2. Liam
        Liam 3 October 2021 11: 04
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        But the article is not scientific

        Well, this is understandable. Therefore, the article contains such conspiracy. In fact, there is more than enough information about Jeanne's life, the motives of her actions, too. And how and why she played such a role with the consent of the king, everything has long been clear and understandable.
  • faterdom
    faterdom 3 October 2021 10: 11
    +6
    In the words of a taxi driver from "Brother-2": "After all, there were people!"
    After all, the PR campaign did not dissipate for 600 years, it only became bronzed and became an axiom! And the main characters died accidentally as a result of betrayal and other misunderstandings!
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 3 October 2021 10: 29
    +7
    After all, you only need to find one document - a certificate of baptism.
    Note that the exact dates of birth (baptismal records) of Gilles de Ré, La Guira, de Centrail and many other contemporaries of Jeanne are also unknown.
    1. Liam
      Liam 3 October 2021 10: 55
      +1
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      After all, you only need to find one document - a certificate of baptism.
      Note that the exact dates of birth (baptismal records) of Gilles de Ré, La Guira, de Centrail and many other contemporaries of Jeanne are also unknown.

      Unknown because they did not make such records then, especially for the peasants, which was Jeanne's family.
      By the way ... She was not called Jeanne d'arc. Much later she was called that by her father's surname. But at the trial she said that in her village only her sons took their father's surname, and girls took their mother's surname, in her case, Roma. She herself called herself Jean La Pucelle
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 3 October 2021 11: 01
        +5
        Hmmm ... Did you make notes about the wedding, but not about the baptism?
        1. Liam
          Liam 3 October 2021 11: 14
          +7
          Well, Duc, a wedding is a wedding, a dowry, civil legal relations, property. They did not joke with this either then or now. And the exact age at that time was not particularly interesting to anyone. Hundreds of witnesses who knew her personally spoke at the two trials of Jeanne. her family is more than enough. Her father was a wealthy man and the mayor of the village. By the way ... as soon as Jeanne became a court star, he appeared at the court with her brothers. For the village (and for himself) he knocked out the abolition of taxes. Son Pierre was granted nobility and others. material nishtyaks. The brothers were always next to Jeanne as it was supposed at that time for a woman to be accompanied by men from a family and not to walk alone. Like Muslims now)
          By the way ... after Jeanne's first escape from the house, her mother told her that her father and brothers almost decided to drown her in the lake so as not to dishonor the family. For the fate of all the girls who fled from home with soldiers is prostitution
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 3 October 2021 11: 33
            +2
            Well Duc a wedding is a wedding, giving, civil legal relations, property. They did not joke with this either then or now
            It is difficult to disagree with this. By the way, the same Togoeva has an interesting study on this topic "" True Truth "The Language of Medieval Justice"
            1. Liam
              Liam 3 October 2021 11: 42
              +3
              The main sources of information about the Middle Ages are the archives of the then courts and notaries)
              The obligation to register all births and deaths for churches was introduced in France in 1539
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 3 October 2021 11: 51
                +3
                Well, the book about which I wrote and created on the basis of the "Criminal Register of the Grand-Châtelet Fortress"
                1. Liam
                  Liam 3 October 2021 12: 00
                  +3
                  These sources are the most reliable and show the real life of people of the era. The archives of any European town are literally crammed with cubic meters of these documents. No historians will never be enough to shovel and study everything.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 3 October 2021 12: 07
                    +7
                    The archives of any European town are literally packed with cubic meters of these documents.
                    And they are all undoubtedly forged in the Vatican dungeons! laughing
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 3 October 2021 17: 30
            +1
            after Jeanne's first escape from home
            "Vagrant tendency"?
            It became interesting if any of the researchers considered Jeanne's personality from the point of view of psychiatry?
            1. Liam
              Liam 3 October 2021 19: 28
              0
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              A tendency to vagrancy "?

              No, the first time she went to the same captain from the royal garrison with a request to take her to the king about 2 years before the second (successful) attempt. The captain simply called her parents and sent everyone home. The second time, he sent her to the king. gave protection, a horse, weapons, and the whole village threw off to buy her proper men's clothing.
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              It became interesting if any of the researchers considered Jeanne's personality from the point of view of psychiatry?

              Of course. The king would not put a madman at the head of the army. She was examined for a long time by a commission of doctors, theologians, various advisers and other learned men. Verdict is healthy. Also during the captivity and the process, she was continuously under medical supervision, including The verdict was the same.

              You just have to look at the situation through the eyes of the people of that time, not ours, although there are enough tribunes in our time)
              There were many people who heard God's voices and carried out God's mission then. Many of them believed and followed them. The stream of such passionaries saving France and going to the king was endless. Jeanne was one of many. A few years before that, the University of Paris even issued an edict. calling on those who hear God's voice to go to them so that they are "examined" and allowed to the king.
              By the time of the second attempt, the fame of Joan and her visions had already spread throughout the area, so the captain did not send her home, but took a chance and took her to the king
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 3 October 2021 19: 32
                +1
                Several years earlier, the University of Paris even issued an edict calling upon those who breathe God's voice to go to them so that they would be "examined" and admitted to the king.
                Oppa! I didn't know about it!
                1. Liam
                  Liam 3 October 2021 19: 36
                  +2
                  It was, it was. France and the Dauphin at that time were in a deep hole and grabbed at any straw. And they were right by the way. Jeanne saved them in fact. Within a few months, she turned the course of history radically. Faith is a powerful catalyst. How would we? she was not treated
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 3 October 2021 20: 01
                    +2
                    The fact that the Kingdom of France was at that time in a deep dupa is undoubtedly!
                    The fact that Jeanne pulled him out of this dupa, too - no doubt!
                    The very factor of the appearance of the "Jeanne phenomenon" is important, because such a thing has never been encountered before in the history of mankind.
                    1. Liam
                      Liam 3 October 2021 21: 47
                      0
                      Well, it was all the same before and after her. She was not a commander and not even a warrior. The historical fact that she did not kill or wounded anyone in battles. All the same, real soldiers fought in those battles under the command of real military commanders. Jeanne-banner If you want. Moral spirit, God is with us and all that. France would have won that war and without it, undoubtedly for objective reasons, but it would have happened later and under a different banner.
  • Avior
    Avior 3 October 2021 11: 46
    +2
    Was at the site of the burning of Jeanne Dark in Rouen
    A whole complex of a huge cross and a church named after her was built there.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 3 October 2021 17: 39
    +2
    Interestingly, the English economy at that time was slightly more developed than the French
    Exactly from the moment when Edward III, openly "threw" the Lombards.
    And, yes, thank you Vyacheslav Olegovich!
  • The comment was deleted.
  • depressant
    depressant 4 October 2021 08: 43
    +4
    So, I'll start with a prediction.
    It is believed that this is stupidity and blah blah blah ...
    Prediction as an expressed thought has material power, for it contains intention. And there will always be a lot of people who would like to translate this intention into reality, but they are reluctant, there are no opportunities, out of order, etc. But if someone decisive will take it, we will support.
    In Troyes, an agreement was signed on May 21, 1420, according to which the legitimate heir, Dauphin Charles, was removed from the throne, and King Henry V of England became the heir to the French throne.
    Rumors that quickly spread accused the Queen of France, Isabella of Bavaria, of initiating the treaty. Without going into the reasons for her act, it is only worth noting that, under the treaty, France actually became part of England, it does not matter as a vassal. Be that as it may, the entire French people were to become a cash cow not only of their aristocracy, but also of the English, and the French aristocracy, of course, was deprived of a number of those advantages that it had.
    Therefore, it is possible that someone, shaking their fists, exclaimed in a private conversation:

    "The woman has ruined France, the maiden will save her!"

    I admit that at first this exclamation was not a prediction. It was a threat, as it should be to the French, in an elegant paradoxical manner. Full of despair and powerlessness, the threat went to the people like a straw for the drowning to grab. But, having become widespread literally in all strata of the population, this "straw", having acquired the meaning of prediction, eventually gained the strength of faith and became the last hope of the entire French people. Because there was nothing more to hope for. The pillar of the PR project has been formed.
  • depressant
    depressant 4 October 2021 11: 35
    +3
    So, the preconditions for the "Virgo" PR project were formed.

    But not just any virgin was needed, but one who would unite all the estates. Spirituality is for commoners, so a peasant woman was needed. And to the king - one that would fiercely defend his interests. So, what was needed was a virgin who was involved in the ruling class, who was versed in politics, and by no means a peasant simpleton.
    And such a virgin, satisfying each of the two conflicting requirements, was found.
    It is not a secret for any of those present that the noble persons of that time had many "illegal" children. Some were killed, others were given to the education of small-litters nobles, who received funds for their maintenance and gave such children a decent education and skills according to their origin.
    Jeanne was given to a peasant family named Tark or Dark. Because the child was pronounced dead.
    Some French historians claim that Jeanne is the illegitimate daughter of Queen Isabella, that is, the Virgin was involved in the Royal House of Orleans and knew about it. But these Darks, who raised her, were not peasants at all, but impoverished noblemen d'Arcs, and the secret noble pride could not but force them to tell the girl about her origin, which, as it were, raised them in their own eyes.
    Indeed, in 1407, Isabella gave birth to an illegitimate child, who somehow died immediately. The sex of the child remained unknown, the grave could not be found.
    And it turns out that Jeanne survived only because she was the half-sister of King Charles VII, and for this reason she received a serious upbringing in the Dark family.
    Indeed, Jeanne not only was deeply versed in politics and showed considerable knowledge in this area, which a simple peasant woman could not have by definition, but from childhood she learned to ride and owned a battle spear, that is, the art of the knightly estate. Moreover, she spoke without a provincial Lorraine accent and treated noble people on equal terms, which a girl from a real peasant family could not afford - an instinct, driven from childhood, would not allow!

    So maybe the exclamation that the woman ruined France, and the virgin will save her - this exclamation was uttered by a person who was in the subject? And it was not an expression of annoyance, but the idea of ​​a PR project.