Achilles' heel of battleships

198

... The Massachusetts shell entered the right place at the right angle. Having broken through the upper, main armored (150 mm) and lower armored decks together with the flooring of the first platform, the steel "blank" ended its journey in a room intended for storing ammunition for medium-caliber guns. The explosion scattered shrapnel over all aft compartments - from artillery cellars to the turbo generator compartment.

By a lucky coincidence, the French did not manage to install on a battleship of an anti-mine turret. If "Jean Bar" was completed and equipped with all the weapons prescribed by the project, then such a hit would inevitably lead to detonation of ammunition with tangible consequences for the ship. But the explosion rumbled in the empty compartment. Despite the subsequent shelling and bombing, Jean Bar remained operational for a couple of days (Casablanca, 1942). And later it was found fit for refurbishment and return to service.



At first glance, getting into the cellar was not something unique. Naval battles contain many examples of such hits. And the threat of detonation of its own ammunition pursued warships everywhere. Even in peacetime.

The question is different.

For what purposes was it supposed to store 40 tons of gunpowder and explosives in the stern of the Richelieu-class battleships?

The answer is simple - it is the ammunition of the medium (mine) caliber aft towers. 2 250 high-explosive and 750 armor-piercing shells of 152 mm caliber with the corresponding number of charges.

The intrigue consists in assessing the benefits of this weapons... For whom was it a great danger - for the enemy or for the French battleships themselves?

Call of the Ancestors


The six-inch guns on the Bismarck, Littorio, Richelieu or Yamato are echoes of the distant past. The legacy of the battleship "Admiral" (1880), the armament scheme of which formed the basis of future EBRs, most dreadnoughts and battleships. The main caliber is concentrated in the extremities, the auxiliary artillery of 6 inches is in the middle part of the hull.

Already in the XNUMXth century, it was clear that battleships did not sink from the shots of six-inch guns (for a reasonable duration of the battle). Only a small number of main battery guns and scanty ranges of battles forced the use of medium caliber. In order to cause any disturbance to the enemy squadron.

The creators of the breakthrough Dreadnought considered it reasonable to abandon half measures and went for broke. Five main turrets provided an onboard salvo comparable to a battleship squadron. The presence of 6-inch artillery in the EBRs, as well as the complete absence of such on the Dreadnought, ceased to be of any importance.

The main caliber artillery was the main and, in fact, the only weapon of the early twentieth century dreadnoughts.

The five main battery towers left no room for other weapons that could be of real value in battle. The characteristics of the auxiliary artillery 76-102 mm (power, firing range) in the absence of high-quality sighting means made their use in practice hardly possible.

An attack by light forces on a dreadnought compound on the high seas was an obscenely unlikely event. This could have happened at the close of the battle, when the fate of the damaged ship that had lagged behind the squadron depended for the most part on completely different circumstances.

The auxiliary caliber guns themselves had little chance of surviving until the end of the battle. When even the super-protected main battery towers were out of order, most of the anti-mine caliber was long ago "knocked out" or burned out in the fire of fires.

Despite this author's reasoning, it never occurred to anyone to build a dreadnought with only a dozen 305 mm guns. "Undaunted" and all his followers, along with the GK, without fail carried sham anti-mine caliber.

With a change in caliber, the mass of the projectiles increases or decreases in a cubic proportion. Hence the seemingly incredible difference between GC and PMK. All 27 of the Dreadnought's mine countermeasures weighed as much as a single 305mm cannon barrel. Unobtrusive load article.

The continuation was the 102-mm MK VII guns, which were armed with a series of British dreadnoughts and battle cruisers "Lion", "Neptune", "Colossus", "Orion", "King George V", etc.


Trunks protruded from the superstructure, ready to repel an attack from any direction. Although the real prospects for the use of secondary guns looked dubious, the MK VII guns did not require much space and did not cause much damage to the structure. The presence of even 16 such guns remained unnoticed.

Iron Duke changed everything.

A new type of dreadnought that was bound to surpass its predecessors. As a result, they could not change anything and turned to auxiliary artillery.

The idea of ​​replacing 102mm guns with 152mm ones did not meet with confident support. Opponents pointed to the reduction in the number of guns and the need for their low location on the battery deck. Flooded with endless streams of water and spray, the cannons promised to create problems at high speed, in fresh weather. What a combat use!

And the most important thing.

The 6-inch guns looked unreasonably massive for their "auxiliary" role. The gun itself was three times heavier than its predecessors. And such artillery needed serious protection: too many explosive materials were contained in ammunition and charges of 6-inch guns.

Achilles' heel of battleships

The main opponent of the decision, Admiral Fischer resigned as First Sea Lord in 1910. Since then, a new spiral has spun into stories with a caliber of 6 “on ships of the linear fleet.

In fact, the race was started at the suggestion of other famous dreadnought builders.

In 1909, the Nassau was launched in Germany. Qualitative, but too banal answer to the "Dreadnought". The Germans were unable to provide superiority in terms of speed, security, or the value of the main caliber. Instead, it turned out to be shocking. The scheme is "only big guns" while maintaining ... a six-inch medium caliber.

For all the fantasies and debates within the walls of the admiralty, the sailors paid with their lives.

The crews of anti-mine guns clearly took their places according to the combat schedule, waiting for the shells of the "six-inch" guns to reach the enemy. On that day, a pair of large-caliber shells pierced the side armor of the battleship Malaya and exploded on the battery deck. Dozens of sailors died from the detonation of the 152-mm guns. König and Tiger (the Jutland naval battle) suffered in a similar way.

At the beginning of the century, the construction of dreadnoughts with 152-mm auxiliary caliber had at least some logical explanation. The line fleets felt threatened by the growing destroyers and new torpedoes with increased cruising range.

But the presence of "double medium caliber" on many battleships built in 1920-1940 is even more surprising.

The following seems to be one of the sources of problems.

The main caliber of battleships has always been distinguished by the highest level of protection.


Thick walls of towers, powerful barbets and elevators for ammunition supply going deep down, almost to the very bottom. The cellars located in that area covered belts, armored decks and traverse bulkheads. The enemy needed to break through the maximum number of obstacles in order to get to the main battery ammunition. All design reserves were aimed at preventing such situations.

The rest of the armament of the battleships could not have such protection. First of all, for such quirks, there would not be enough displacement stock.

The frivolous attitude towards medium-caliber protection did not negate the fact that the SK ammunition could explode like an adult.

The public may be outraged by the author's harsh remarks and his subsequent conclusions. But before us are clear facts.

Acquaintance with the well-known projects surprises with what disdain their creators treated the defense of the towers and cellars of the UK. The most severe imbalance was found in the Yamato battleships, where the main caliber turrets had wall thickness from 250 to 650 mm. And the protection of medium-caliber turrets from the back and sides was provided by 25-mm walls with heat-insulating lining.

Japanese designers attached importance to the smallest details, but did not seem to notice the danger from gun turrets, whose walls could be broken by a shrapnel or torn to shreds by an explosion aviation bombs. Behind the walls, on trays and lifts, there were fragile charges containing tens of kilograms of gunpowder. And the mine, which opens a direct path to the ammunition storage, which was located next to the main caliber cellars!


The "cardboard" towers are believed to be the legacy of the Mogami cruisers. This fact corresponds to the chronology: in 1939-1940, four Mogami-class cruisers were re-equipped with towers with 203-mm cannons. The remaining installations with 155/60 Type 3 guns were later found everywhere - from naval arsenals to coastal batteries and Oyodo light cruisers. On the other hand, the sources do not comment on the differences in the design of the turrets of the SC cruisers and battleships. The latter were distinguished by increased front armor, reaching 75 mm.

In any case, such medium-caliber protection on one of the most protected ships in history looked ridiculous.

The SC of battleships of the "Nelson" type looked no less strange. 406-mm frontal plates and 350-mm barbets at the turrets of the main caliber. Again, the 25mm turret walls of the 6-inch guns.

Nelson, of course, has its own excuses. The world's first "negotiated battleship" project. Its creators chose the best possible. The preference fell on the all-or-nothing scheme along with the unusual arrangement of the main battery towers. The medium-caliber turrets were left in the stern, where no one cared about them.

But still...

We are talking about closely grouped weapons (2x6 caliber 152 mm) and tens of tons of explosives. In the absence of any protection for the rotary part of the towers and ammunition supply systems.


British designers have made titanic efforts to ensure the protection of all elements of the citadel. 356 mm conning tower walls and chimney protection made of 229 mm thick slabs. However, the medium caliber received no attention. As if the threat of detonation of 20 tons of gunpowder in the stern could be considered sheer nonsense, incapable of influencing the actions of the battleship in combat conditions.

This is a real paradox.

The creators of "Nelson" and "Yamato" were well aware of the issues of ship security. Much better than you and me. And if they did this with the SK towers, it means that there really was no threat.

On the other hand, how to explain the design of 152 mm installations on the Italian Littorio, where the frontal part reached 280 mm, and the turret roof was protected by 100-150 mm thick armor?

The Genoese craftsmen suspected some kind of danger and desperately tried to protect the ship from it. As far as possible.

As for the ships described at the beginning of the article, the French aircraft of the "Richelieu" type received three aft anti-mine turrets each. With wall thickness from 70 to 130 mm.

Is it necessary to clarify that the achieved values ​​were several times inferior to the indicators of the security of the GC?


Certain indulgences were also observed in the design of the cellars.

The floor of the fighting compartment of the secondary battery tower was almost half the thickness (30 versus 55 mm for the main battery turret). It is possible to note the smaller thickness of the main armored deck above the secondary battery cellars (150 instead of 170 mm at the bow group of the main battery towers). Or a smaller aft traverse, where there was no additional protection in the gap between the main and lower splinterproof decks.

Each element of the battleship had its own priority.


The failure of the secondary battery turret could not have such an impact on combat effectiveness as the loss of the main caliber turret. And in general, no one was going to book the entire ship according to the standards for the main battery towers.

For example, a medium caliber relied on a high targeting speed, which in itself excluded the presence of heavy protection.

And the 100-mm anti-aircraft guns of the "Richelieu" battleships had no armor at all, with the exception of a 30 mm thick frontal shield. The designers sought to provide the largest number of firing points and high mobility of anti-aircraft guns.

Anti-aircraft weapons, at least, tried to solve their problems. And it was regularly used in battle.

For 6-inch artillery, the claim is as follows: what was the justification for finding such weapons on board battleship-class ships in 1920-1940?

The PMK was impossible to really protect. Among the auxiliary weapons, the PMK posed the greatest threats. At the same time, assessments of its combat value were in doubt.

Six inches was clearly overkill for auxiliary tasks.


For unknown reasons, the designers often forgot about the fire controls for the 6-inch guns. Which turned these magnificent cannons into pieces of silent metal.

Insufficient elevation angles and low rate of fire made it impossible to fire at air targets.

The location of the secondary battery artillery on the "Nelson" and "Richelieu" gives out the designers' intention - to provide cover for the dead zone of the main battery.

The main caliber artillery of the "Nelson" and "Richelieu" fired ammunition, which weighed under 900 kg. 6-inch shells were 15 times lighter.

Questions arise.

How could 6-inch fire replace the main caliber? And how they defended themselves from destroyers at the bow corners, outside the range of the secondary battery:

In the case of the Richelieu, firepower at the aft corners was provided by unprecedentedly large swivel angles of the main caliber turrets (over 300 degrees). And also due to the mobility and maneuverability of the artillery platform itself, that is, the ship.

The use of six-inch guns in repelling attacks from light surface forces was devalued by the presence of large-caliber anti-aircraft guns. With a high rate of fire and high-speed guidance drives. In fact, we are talking about a universal caliber with its accepted value of about 5 inches. In different fleets, there was a variation of ± 0,3 inches.

Taking these factors into account, 6-inches became the Achilles heel of battleships. As the experience of both world wars has shown, secondary battery guns, due to various circumstances, were practically never used for their intended purpose. And all attempts to give them universality or use for other tasks have failed.

Dangerous "ballast"!

In absolute terms, the damage was expressed in tens of tons of explosives that were just on board, always ready to detonate when the cellars were hit.

French sailors were fabulously lucky in Casablanca. But the biggest casualty of its own mine-action caliber was probably the battleship Roma. One of the guided German bombs hit the ammunition cellar of 152-mm guns (hit number 2 in the diagram).


From the standpoint of the distribution of load items, a battery of 6-inch guns demanded simply colossal costs, incommensurate with the usefulness of the guns themselves. The installation of even unarmored towers and the arrangement of storage sites for ammunition took thousands of tons of hull structures, which could be used to improve other characteristics of ships.

Finale


It is easy to draw conclusions after the results of the battles have become known. And time put everything in its place.

On the other hand, what amateurs are now talking about was previously done by professionals.

Individuals whose job responsibilities included a thorough study and analysis of the situation, the upcoming tasks and parameters of the weapon worked on the design of the technical task. The specialists had the most important and secret information at their disposal. Test reports, ship damage atlases, tactical guides and artillery tables. In that case, they should have known as much as we do now.

The logic behind the choice of weakly defended secondary battery turrets and the very presence of a double medium caliber on late battleships remains unclear.

The second reason is a whole galaxy of ships, the creators of which avoided 152-mm artillery. Overseas, the designers initially opted for a 5-inch (127 mm) caliber. Gradually increasing the number of installations, as the size of the battleships themselves increases. Subsequently, this practice led to the equipping of "battle ships" with very successful universal weapons 5 "/ 38, with which the Yankees went through the entire war.

The British followed the example with the creation of their "King George V" (1939), the auxiliary armament of which consisted of 16 universal 133 mm guns. Here, it will be appropriate to recall the battlecruisers of the "Rhinaun" class with a 4-inch medium caliber.



Even the Japanese, in the end, were forced to revise the composition of the Yamato's weapons. They managed to dismantle a couple of turrets with 155-mm guns from the lead ship, replacing them with universal 127-mm cannons (Type 89) and small-caliber anti-aircraft guns.

Finally, in order to avoid unfounded remarks, I will emphasize the main idea of ​​the article.

If a weapon is present on board, but not used in combat situations, its unused ammunition becomes a source of senseless risks and problems. In this form, the "weapon" poses a greater danger to the ship itself than to the enemy. This situation itself raises questions.

Is the above said in relation to the anti-mine caliber of battleships?

It will be interesting to know the opinion of the readers of "Military Review" about this ...

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198 comments
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  1. +10
    28 September 2021 05: 19
    Inertia of thinking. the Americans installed a 75-mm long-barreled cannon and a 37-mm "anti-tank" cannon on their Lis. In the USSR, on the SMK and T-100, along with the long-barreled 76th gun, they also installed "anti-tank" forty-fives. Although one does not need to have seven spans in the forehead to understand that if there is a long-barreled 76-mm cannon, then a forty-five is not needed at all.
    1. +4
      28 September 2021 06: 21
      ... and in the end came to a very successful BMP-3 ...
      However, in this case, in the presence of large-caliber anti-aircraft guns ... The only thing that comes into my head is that anti-aircraft guns are more expensive and much more expensive in production. Accordingly, as a universal one, for surface targets and along the coast - its resource is expensive to spend ... But, too, the excuse is so-so, but what is generally cheap in the fleet?
      1. 0
        6 October 2021 15: 09
        Accordingly, as a universal, for surface targets and along the coast - its resource is expensive to spend

        Anti-aircraft gun 127mm has a longer range and projectile power. And most importantly, these guns are not dead weight (suddenly come in handy), they are always in business: they shoot at planes or EMs.
        The author has mentioned this shortcoming several times in the 155mm medium caliber.
        The high cost of the barrel (a consumable for an anti-aircraft gun, in general for any gun) in this caliber is insignificant.
        and in the end came to a very successful BMP-3

        Controversial statement. In what role are you considering the use of this vehicle - as an infantry fighting vehicle or a light tank?
        The worse is the armament of Bradley, or of the Puma, with two ATGMs covered with armor?
        1. 0
          6 October 2021 15: 12
          Quote: 3danimal
          The worse is Bradley's armament, with 2 ATGMs ready for launch?

          1) Price
          2) Ammunition
          1. 0
            6 October 2021 15: 29
            Let me remind you that the price is influenced by the significantly greater security, and the intelligent filling, sensors.
            Most of the BMP tasks can be solved with a 30mm cannon (with programmable detonation shells on the Puma and modern versions of Bradley), when attacking a fortification or a tank, there is an ATGM of a larger caliber, which can be increased (from the initial 130mm to 152mm starting from the A2 Bradley versions)
            1. 0
              6 October 2021 15: 31
              ATGM price !!!! Several orders of magnitude higher than the projectile, despite the fact that an ATGM can launch an infantry fighting vehicle, but Bradley's normal high-explosive projectile cannot.
              1. -1
                6 October 2021 15: 36
                Why would BMP fire 100mm rounds at all? Endure fortifications? - for this there is aviation or ATGM of greater power and accuracy.
                Justified for a poor army using the BMP-3 as a light tank request
                1. 0
                  18 December 2021 09: 34
                  This is a lesson already passed - for each enemy infantryman to call aviation (which until arrives or will be busy) or to shoot ATGMs at a separate machine gun - is TOO expensive and stupid. And if the BMR-3 can be a light tank (which all countries still have or are developing), then what's so terrible about it?
    2. +2
      28 September 2021 11: 44
      "Long-barreled" is the concept of "extensible".
      The barrel of the L-11 gun was longer than the barrel of the KT-28 gun, but shorter than the barrel of the F-34 gun!
      And regarding the "inertia" of thinking of American designers - they had no experience of installing 75mm guns in a tank turret. A tank with a similar weapon was required immediately. So we have built a sponson!
      Later, they worked out the installation of the gun and the tower itself for it. We looked at the Canadian "Rem".
      And they created an average M-4. Popularly "Sherman"
      1. +1
        28 September 2021 11: 49
        Quote: hohol95
        "Long-barreled" is the concept of "extensible".
        The barrel of the L-11 gun was longer than the barrel of the KT-28 gun, but shorter than the barrel of the F-34 gun!

        Here, not only the length of the barrel is important, but also the charge of the powder in the case. The L-11 used cartridges from a divisional gun, and therefore the muzzle velocity of the projectile, even with a barrel of 30 calibers, was 588 m / s. Whereas in the KT-28, the initial velocity of the projectile had a charge of the regiment, and had an initial velocity of only 381 m / s.
        1. 0
          28 September 2021 11: 59
          The shells fired from the F-34 had an even higher muzzle velocity.
          Both the American M2 and M3 guns were distinguished by the long barrels with the same ammunition.
          T-100 and SMK are experimental vehicles. And initially, apparently, they were supposed to arm themselves with the L-10 gun. Under the same "regimental shell" as the KT-28. Therefore, they provided for a turret with a 45mm gun to combat enemy armored vehicles.
          At different times, each designer had "its own long-barreled".
          1. +1
            28 September 2021 14: 00
            You have not yet taken into account the moment with the ammunition. There is much less space in a tank than in a ship. Accordingly, putting a small-caliber cannon to work on tanks with bulletproof armor, the designers tried to save the ammunition of the main gun. But the economy came out dubious and the armor of the opponents quickly grew.
            1. +2
              28 September 2021 14: 56
              You did not take into account the lack of mass production of armor-piercing shells for the guns of the regimental and divisional level.
              It was with such shells that the guns of the T-28/35, KV-1 and T-34 tanks were equipped.
              Perhaps for this reason, they put a turret with a "forty-five" on the experimental tanks. In the days of these guns, armor-piercing shells were fired in large quantities.
              1. +1
                28 September 2021 15: 20
                You did not take into account the lack of need for armor-piercing shells for the guns of the regimental and divisional level)))
                Tanks with bulletproof armor were perfectly amazed by both the OFS and shrapnel. To invent a blank is a simple matter, when it was needed, they immediately appeared.
      2. 0
        29 September 2021 06: 37
        Kulik shortened the barrel on the T-34. As for the SEM, an interesting thought ... The Canadians are distinguished by non-standard thinking, they put the tower from Valentine.
  2. +17
    28 September 2021 06: 00
    Owl + globe!
    4 "SC did not prevent Hoodo from gurgling, and 15 cm of Bismarck's cannon successfully repelled the attacks of British destroyers. An American would have fought off the Tribble battalion in a situation of a single ship, it is not at all a fact.
    A projectile from Massachusetts, before detonating in the empty cellar of SK Bar, pierced the main armor deck 150 mm thick. There would be no six-inch cars, there would be station wagon cellars with a proportionally larger number of shots. What's the difference in terms of badabum?
    Why 11 "armor on the towers of SC Veneto? The main battery of the battleship will still pierce and will not notice.
    The only serious drawback of the 6 "secondary battery is the decrease due to its presence of anti-aircraft (universal) weapons.
    1. +10
      28 September 2021 06: 13
      there would be station wagon cellars with proportionally more shots. What's the difference in terms of badabum?

      Versatile weapons could be part of an air defense system and be useful in all situations

      152mm ammunition is a pointless risk. Cover yourself with explosives and wait for badabum. All they can do
      The battleship's main battery will still pierce and will not notice.

      A fragment of an aerial bomb - no
      The only serious drawback of the 6 "secondary battery is the decrease due to its presence of anti-aircraft (universal) weapons.

      Not the only one, but one more, another drawback of the solution with 6-inches
      1. +1
        28 September 2021 18: 48
        Quote: Santa Fe
        Versatile weapons could be part of an air defense system and be useful in all situations

        So the French PMK was universal ...
        The problem is that the towers did not have time to "finish".

        Quote: Santa Fe
        152mm ammunition is a pointless risk. Cover yourself with explosives and wait for badabum. All they can do

        In addition, it was just necessary to look at the TTZ at the French aircrafts: they included the requirement to fire at least 9 secondary battery barrels on board.
        1. +2
          29 September 2021 05: 53
          So the French PMK was universal.

          on paper Yes The universal caliber of 6dm turned out only after 10-15 years. And then, with a stretch
          1. +1
            29 September 2021 18: 12
            Quote: Tlauicol
            on paper yes The universal caliber of 6dm turned out only after 10-15 years. And then, with a stretch

            Who's arguing? :)
            The sailors believed that everything would be and based on this they drew Wishlist.
  3. +7
    28 September 2021 06: 18
    With the development of the destroyer fleet, 6 inches were relevant, but with the development of aviation, the need for an average unique hummingbird only increased. Even if we take an approximately equal firing range of 127 mm destroyers and the same guns on battleships, then only due to a more stable base of battleships, their firing accuracy will be higher, and if we also take into account their number and the density of a salvo ... Therefore, for single destroyers and even pairs of battleships are dangerous opponents.
  4. +21
    28 September 2021 06: 32
    Let's take a look at the factors behind auxiliary artillery. (caliber 100-155mm)
    1. 150-155mm cannons: Cannot be used in AA defenses. They have enough firepower to severely cripple a destroyer. Even small Sumners hitting 1-2 150-155mm shells would be very upsetting. Of these, it is much more economical to shoot transports (remember that the German Panzerschiffs went on raids against the Merchant fleet and convoys. Shooting 280mm pigs at Liberty-type transports is too wasteful.
    2-120mm. These guns can already seem to be, at least in theory, used as air defense. By the way, 135-133 mm in the air defense showed themselves IN ANY WAY. But the American and Japanese 135mm spoke more than well. But, at the same time, even 127-3 hits of such shells on the destroyer, it will not cripple. And it will take a long time and tedious to sink Liberty-type transports with a 4mm caliber, but the raider doesn't have much time to do this.
    3-100mm cannon. These are excellent anti-aircraft guns. Both rapid-fire (unitary loading) and light (you can poke a lot of them). But for shooting at destroyers or transporters, they are not particularly effective. Even a rather flimsy Liberty can withstand a dozen 105mm hits without much difficulty.

    If our battleship is a single raider, yes, then 150-155mm cannons may come in handy. And destroy a destroyer or two and sink the transports (well, not the main caliber). If our battleships are designed for SCADED combat, then 150-155mm cannons have nothing to do with them. For major purposes, there will be a GK. For aircraft, 100-130mm cannons, or even 85-90mm (on the battleships of Littorio there were exactly 90mm). And the destroyers will drive off the escort ships
    1. +6
      28 September 2021 06: 53
      So for the raider to shoot, it is easier to put a couple of guns on the upper deck, even without shields, that's enough. Tray of shells as on cruisers of the late 19th century. Or TA, as the Germans did. Just aft.
      But this is all German stuff. They drove the capital thorns into cruising. The sense was only at the beginning. For normal naval combat of those times, medium caliber is stupidity.
      1. +8
        28 September 2021 09: 34
        So it is easier for a raider to shoot a couple of guns on the upper deck,

        So the Germans did just that. Here is a diagram of a typical WWII raider "Cormoran", according to the German classification - an auxiliary cruiser. 6 guns 150 mm. However, in an artillery battle, he managed to sink a real light cruiser "Sydney".
        1. +4
          28 September 2021 11: 46
          The Australians just came to a critical distance for themselves!
          1. +5
            28 September 2021 11: 51
            Yes, but Detmers had enough endurance to wait and the first salvo to reduce the advantages of the Australian to almost zero. And the training of the German artillerymen was at a high level, and the torpedoists did not fail.
            1. 0
              28 September 2021 12: 23
              But this did not help the Germans much. Only more of them survived!
              1. +3
                28 September 2021 12: 30
                Well, considering that after this battle the Sydney did not come to any port and the end of it is unknown (it is assumed that the explosion of ammunition), then the Germans saved everyone who did not die during the battle, they also took out the wounded in boats. And if not for the cargo of mines in the holds, they could well cope with the fire, because the ship remained afloat.
                1. +2
                  28 September 2021 12: 37
                  They write that after finding the cruiser in 2008 and examining it, they came to the conclusion that it took water through the holes and capsized.
                  The Germans lost the engine crew - two submissions to the engine room. Fire near the stock of mines.
                  Option one. Throw the ship.
                  The loss of the Germans is 80 people.
                  1. +4
                    28 September 2021 13: 38
                    Auxiliary cruiser Cormoran and commander Theodore Detmers.

            2. +1
              28 September 2021 13: 20
              So the Sydney had a good crew. The commander pumped up a new one.
              1. +3
                28 September 2021 13: 38
                The light cruiser "Sydney" and its last commander, Joseph Burnett.
        2. 0
          28 September 2021 20: 10
          The Germans were just lucky that the Aussies relaxed on the rear dill))) the shooting was carried out almost "point-blank" neither the booking, nor the PUAO of the Australian cruiser had any meaning - at such distances they did not miss and their ridiculous armor no longer held 150 - mm.
          1. 0
            6 October 2021 16: 13
            Agree. The next similar episodes (with cruisers) already ended strongly not in their favor.
    2. Eug
      +4
      28 September 2021 08: 22
      In literature, I met the scene of leading destroyers attacking a cruiser by a light cruiser. To repel such attacks, as I understand it, there is an SC on the "heavy". The Germans found another solution - Bismarck raided together with the TC Prince Eugen, whose task, as I understand it, was to cover B from attacks of various kinds of light forces and sink transports. But - the ammunition of anti-aircraft guns can be hidden in the citadel, the anti-aircraft guns themselves - no. It turns out that after several hits from the main battery shells (especially high-explosive) into the battleship, it will be practically defenseless against aviation ...
      1. +3
        28 September 2021 18: 53
        Quote: Eug
        The Germans found another solution - Bismarck raided along with the TC Prince Eugen, whose task, as I understand it, was to cover B from attacks of all sorts of light forces and sink transports.

        "Bismarck" was supposed to pull off the "heavy" escort, and "Eugen" and "Gneisenau" were supposed to sink the transports.
      2. 0
        6 October 2021 17: 28
        The idea of ​​leading destroyers, when going on the attack, died back in WWI. During WWII, such cases, something is not remembered, although everyone was preparing hard))))
  5. +6
    28 September 2021 06: 58
    But the Germans, judging by Haase's book, were seriously training in SK shooting. And under Jutland they fired at the British in earnest. Precisely as a medium caliber.
    Although I remember that our officers back in Russo-Japanese said that anything less than 12 "does not cause any serious damage. Simply put, you can ignore it at all.
    Even there, the Germans were seriously fond of torpedo shooting.
    In general, the inertness of the military is everywhere. Hachu! And that's all.
    1. +2
      28 September 2021 20: 21
      Quote: mmaxx
      Although I remember that our officers back in Russo-Japanese said that anything less than 12 "does not cause any serious damage. Simply put, you can ignore it at all.

      Here we must take into account that Russian 12-inch high-explosive shells then had only 6 kilograms of pyroxylin. And 6-inch high-explosive shells - as much as 1 kilogram of pyroxylin. It is not very surprising that the then sailors underestimated the strength of the "mine" calibers.
  6. +9
    28 September 2021 07: 33
    Is the above said in relation to the anti-mine caliber of battleships?

    It will be interesting to know the opinion of the readers of "Military Review" about this ...


    Weapons that are not used ... Speaking of battleships, the main caliber of battleships was not always used. By and large, the same "Yamato" never put its super-powerful guns into action, but used only anti-aircraft artillery in the last battle, firing back from a swarm of Yankee deck aircraft.

    There is no point in the historical "rustle of nuts" if you do not draw conclusions to the present. What is the use of discussing now the ram nose on battleships or "mine action", if you do not take into account the specifics of that time, heritage and tradition, innovation and dogma of the era? Presumably, this is also present in modern times. Battleships, in what their meaning was, are the most powerful weapons and the most powerful defense. Missiles appeared, replacing the "main caliber", battleships, as a class, went down in history. This is reminiscent of the emergence of firearms and the oblivion of knightly armor. Nevertheless, body armor has returned in modern times, and the topic of protection will hardly be recognized as useless.

    Rockets became more compact, like radio electronics, and reservations began to return to the fleet. For example, destroyers of the "Arleigh Burke" type - the premises of the power plant, REV and control posts have Kevlar anti-fragmentation protection.

    In total, more than 130 tons of Kevlar were spent during construction to protect the main combat posts and units of each Arlie Burke-class destroyer (including 70 tons to protect combat posts). Local anti-splinter armor made of high-strength aluminum-magnesium alloys up to 25,4 mm thick also serves the purpose of protecting mechanisms and equipment below the structural waterline. Plates made of these alloys protect the main waveguides, cables and the most important combat posts (upper tiers of superstructures, BIP rooms, ammunition cellars).

    Why the aforementioned, the theme of survivability in the fleet has not disappeared anywhere, it is, was and will be. With the advent of new materials, new alloys and composites, armor will return to ships. If we talk about ammunition, need or not, I think, Oleg, the question is not correct here. It all depends on the type of battle, on the specific combat mission, and ammunition will be needed in any case, and in any case it will be an explosive source. Therefore, it is necessary to take care of its security, and the weapon should be both as versatile as possible and as optimized as possible for the tasks for which a combat ship is being created.
    1. +5
      28 September 2021 13: 14
      By and large, the same "Yamato" never put its super-powerful guns into action, but used only anti-aircraft artillery in the last battle, firing back from a swarm of Yankee deck aircraft.


      Yamato used his main artillery in both the Battle of the Samara Sea and Operation Ten-g.

      At the beginning of the Naval Battle, the Samara Yamato for the first and last time during its service fired at enemy surface ships with 460-mm guns, hitting several American ships.

      On his last voyage to Okinawa, he fired (unsuccessfully) 460mm cannons from Sanshiki artillery shells at first wave reconnaissance seaplanes and attack aircraft.

      It is true that according to many, the impressive drop at 14:23 was caused by an explosion of ammunition in the bow 155mm turret - it was indeed a wasted displacement that the Japanese could make better use of - the same could be said for seaplanes. on these ships - by definition, they were not supposed to work autonomously, and reconnaissance and all the large and dangerous air ballast must be filled with other ships.
  7. +7
    28 September 2021 07: 34
    What a pity that shipbuilders could not consult with experts of the early 21st century.
    1. +2
      28 September 2021 07: 44
      In fact, the idea of ​​completely ridding the battleship of secondary armament, entrusting its protection from mine attacks to escort ships, was very seriously worked out in MGSH and GUK even before WWII.
      1. +5
        28 September 2021 07: 55
        The escort ships, night, fog, typhoon, etc. are behind, what are we going to do?
        And they are not supposed to be for raiders at all.
    2. 0
      28 September 2021 13: 20
      On the other hand, the idea of ​​the "All Big Gun Ship" dates back to 1903–1904, and in fact, medium-caliber artillery can be considered her perverse.
      1. 0
        28 September 2021 13: 33
        Only now 152mm in 30-40gg is not an average artillery, but an anti-mine caliber.
  8. +12
    28 September 2021 07: 50
    A new literary genre is being formed on the site - "The Divan Epiphany". In the "works" of this genre, the conventional Ivanovs with kaptsov patronizingly and condescendingly patting their ancestors on the shoulder, indicate how stupid they were a hundred or more years ago and how it was necessary to fight correctly, design battleships and build states.
    At the same time, the "day-to-day" themselves in real life were not noted for the creation of anything practically useful.
  9. +4
    28 September 2021 08: 17
    It could have ended badly in Dunkirk too, but 130mm shells exploded without fanaticism and only a few pieces. Although, he would have had enough.
    and crooked hands interfered. The Americans were able to create the Criminal Code, the rest did not, so they piled up the secondary battery and air defense
    1. +5
      28 September 2021 09: 04
      Quote: Tlauicol
      The Americans were able to create the Criminal Code, the rest did not,

      The Americans have created an acceptable SUAO, because they did it so wonderfully with 127/38 station wagons.
      1. +3
        28 September 2021 18: 56
        Quote: Rurikovich
        that's why they did it so wonderfully with 127/38 station wagons it turned out

        One question: is there an example of a destroyer attack successfully repulsed by this MC ... :)
        1. -1
          28 September 2021 19: 16
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          Quote: Rurikovich
          that's why they did it so wonderfully with 127/38 station wagons it turned out

          One question: is there an example of a destroyer attack successfully repulsed by this MC ... :)

          There is Kirishima
          1. +1
            28 September 2021 19: 20
            "Kirishima" - American LC?
            1. -1
              28 September 2021 19: 23
              Japanese. A stuffed Criminal Code, which the Americans felled planes with. The rest did not succeed in any Criminal Code
              1. +1
                28 September 2021 19: 42
                Quote: Tlauicol
                Japanese. A stuffed Criminal Code, which the Americans felled planes with. The rest did not succeed in any Criminal Code

                If you do not understand from the context, then we are talking about American LCs with their 127/38 station wagons ... :)
                1. 0
                  29 September 2021 04: 35
                  I understood everything perfectly: American guns were good both against aircraft and against ships. No one else succeeded
                  1. 0
                    29 September 2021 18: 14
                    Quote: Tlauicol
                    I understood everything perfectly: American guns were good both against aircraft and against ships. No one else succeeded

                    Will there be examples of attacks by destroyers repulsed by American "post-Washington" battleships during WWII?
                    1. 0
                      29 September 2021 19: 42
                      The conditions of the problem are changing right before our eyes. Not just battleships, but a post ... Sophistika. Like: it wasn’t, so we couldn’t? But in fact, these are the only universal weapons of the WWII
                      1. 0
                        29 September 2021 20: 25
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        The conditions of the problem are changing right before our eyes. Not just battleships, but a post.

                        You can still take the "big five" LKs restored after the P-X and rearmed at 127/38 mm.

                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        Like: it wasn’t, so we couldn’t?

                        Like it would be nice to confirm loud statements ...
                      2. 0
                        30 September 2021 04: 13
                        Which? "The Americans were able to create the Criminal Code"? This is true. Perfectly hit air surface ground targets.
          2. 0
            28 September 2021 20: 14
            Quote: Tlauicol
            st Kirishima

            ay-ay !!! No. negative "Kirishima" was stuffed with 406mm shells by "Washington" at Cape Esperance, after "Kirishima" forced the cruisers to leave for repairs "South Dakota". And "Kirishima" sank 4 hours later. And all in one night smile
            But the victim was "Hiei", which got about 130 shells, 30 of which were 203mm. None of the armor pierced, but the steering wheel was damaged, as well as the superstructures, damaged the electrics, which made half of the main artillery unusable. Then he was stubbornly finished off with aviation.
            1. 0
              29 September 2021 04: 41
              Several dozen 127mm shells and less than ten 16dm shells hit Kirishima. The point is that the Yankees created the Criminal Code, but others did not succeed
        2. +1
          28 September 2021 19: 21
          This is not for me, but for Kaptsov wink smile hi
          1. 0
            28 September 2021 19: 42
            Quote: Rurikovich
            This is not for me, but for Kaptsov wink smile hi

            Well sorry ... :)
    2. +1
      28 September 2021 17: 03
      Omerikans, oh eu!
      They didn’t create a damn thing universal, but completely didn’t try to adapt six-inch guns to firing at planes (Worcester). The famous five-inch Mk-12 - upgraded to acceptable ballistics Mk-10. And never a versatile person, but an antiaircraft gun, with good speeds of GN and HV.
      Another question is, if your battleships and cruisers operate only as part of squadrons, then you do not need an anti-mine (and, in theory, universal!) Caliber. He is abundantly listed in Cleveland and Brooklyn.
      As for the "Achilles' heel", it is not at all in the towers and cellars of the UK. It is in the impossibility of creating adequate protection against heavy armor-piercing bombs and powerful torpedoes. And the protection of the SC cellars from external influences can be quite simply equated with the protection of the main battery cellars due to the gap in the supply and the presence of the SC consumable ammunition in the turret barbette located above the main armored deck.
      1. 0
        29 September 2021 05: 11
        no, it was originally created as universal. And not on the basis of the lengthening of the mk10 anti-aircraft gun, but on the basis of the shortening of the mk9. The bottom line is the best all-round weapon.
        And your whole last paragraph is also American with 127mm Yes
        1. 0
          29 September 2021 09: 20
          There is no dispute that the Mk-12 was created as a universal weapon for destroyers, but the genesis clearly indicates the priority of air defense. No wonder, when designing the VV-61 - VV-66 series, there were attempts to introduce a truly universal 152 / L47, however, the unavailability of installations and weight considerations forced us to return to the proven two-gun Mk-28 with 127 / L38 Mk-12.
  10. +8
    28 September 2021 08: 29
    The fact that there were practically no attacks by light forces on battleships in both wars was precisely the merit of the secondary battery. The artillery of the main battery was directed centrally and all together, otherwise its effectiveness dropped by an order of magnitude, despite the fact that, taking into account the zeroing and adjusting the rate of fire, it was 1 salvo every 1-2 minutes. This meant that when destroyers launched an attack on a battleship, assuming the effective fire range of the battleship's main battery was 10 miles (from a greater distance, it was possible to hit a high-speed, small-sized, maneuvering target only by accident), and the torpedo launch range was 3-4 miles, that of a battleship it was only 10-11 minutes to shoot the enemy's EM, i.e. 8-10 volleys. Counting 3-5 volleys per target, taking into account zeroing, this was enough to repel an attack of a maximum of 2-3 destroyers. And that's not a fact, many destroyers were very tenacious ships, capable of withstanding even several hits of aerial bombs or shells of the battleship's main battery.
    Now let's take the PMK. The conditions and ranges are the same, we consider that 10-12 6 "guns are working on destroyers, the rate of fire is 4-6, we count 5 rounds per minute, the probability of hitting is 3%. Which means in 10 minutes the secondary battery will achieve 15-18 hits on attacking destroyers This means that the effectiveness of its fire is at least not inferior to the main battery, or even surpasses, considering that to reliably disrupt the attack (sinking or a significant drop in the course) of a destroyer, 3-6 hits of 152mm shells are required. interferes, since it is easy for ranger to distinguish "fountains" 15-16 "from 6"), this means that the battleship is guaranteed to overheat 5-6 destroyers in the event of a daytime attack, which is not a very good exchange, and even go and collect the required 8-10 destroyers, and organize them an attack on the battleship, which should also be in splendid isolation.
    Why not 4-5 "? And here the whole point is in the consumption of ammunition for a target such as EM. If in the case of 6 and 16 inches, the difference in the required number of shells is somewhere 3-5 times, then with a further decrease in caliber, sinking of the target grew very rapidly, and with a caliber of less than 100mm, sinking a destroyer in a reasonable time was nothing to dream of.
    And only an increase in the number and rate of fire of universal calibers in World War II, especially in the Pacific theater of operations, where he was often in fact the main one, protecting ships from enemy aircraft, made it possible to solve secondary armament tasks with the help of 100-130mm guns.
    1. +2
      28 September 2021 08: 42
      we believe that 10-12 guns of 6 "caliber are working on destroyers

      On each board ??
      hit probability 3%.

      Doubtfully high score
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. +1
      28 September 2021 12: 15
      Quote: Max PV
      10 miles (from a greater distance it was possible to hit a high-speed, small, maneuvering target only by accident)


      Are you thinking as a "victim" of the simplifications of the Word of War ships? ;)
      In reality, a direct hit on a destroyer was not required to disrupt a torpedo attack.

      The main damaging factor is shrapnel, which, with indirect hits, pierce the sides of destroyers with shrapnel, create underwater and surface holes, disable vehicles and mechanisms, and strike the crew.
      "New Year's Battle" 1942 - British destroyers had rare direct hits.
      Orwell and Onslow headed towards the Hipper, constantly simulating torpedo attacks and preventing the cruiser from approaching the convoy.

      In this characteristic episode, only one destroyer had a direct hit (into the tube) by a 203 mm projectile from Hipper, 48 people were injured on HMS Onslow - the largest number of wounded at one time.
      Of the 6 destroyers in the convoy, only one had no damage in the battle. All others were damaged by shrapnel.
      Of course, this is not reflected in any way in games like WOWS.

      The first round of the fifth volley exploded near the port side of the Onslow. A jagged piece of steel punctured the skin and flew into the engine room ....
      Again, the first round of the volley exploded a few feet from the port side between guns A and B, indenting 6 inches deep in the side. The remaining 7 shells exploded on the starboard side.

      "To the breaks!"

      "The engine room reports damage ..."

      "Left 10. Course zero-six-zero."

      "The shells are coming ... coming ... closer ..."

      The radar operator lived for a fraction of a second, although [199] hardly had time to realize that the shells were falling directly on him.

      There was a terrible explosion behind the bridge. The fifth round of a salvo at an angle of 10 ° to the traverse slipped over the 25-foot boat and crashed into the upper edge of the pipe. He ripped open the pipe from top to bottom. The shock wave went down the pipe, opening the boiler casing flaps and knocking out the safety valve, which immediately began to poison the high pressure steam. The vapor immediately went up, spreading over the ship with some kind of outlandish plume.

      Shards riddled the pipe, and it began to resemble a pepper shaker. Hundreds of razor-sharp pieces of steel flew forward, piercing both radar rooms. The operator was killed on the spot. Part of the fragments cut the antennas, riddled the control tower, hit the back of the bridge. The starboard observer was killed. One shrapnel, reflected from the artillery radar antenna on the roof of the KDP, hit Sherbrooke in the face ...
      Before anyone could rush to the captain's aid, two more explosions thundered, overlapping with the roar of shots. A double flash flashed in the front of the destroyer, indicating that two more [200] Hipper rounds had hit their target. Almost immediately, flames rose up in front of the bridge. Cordite charges ignited, which turned the forecastle into a real hell.

      Sherbrooke ("It was difficult to understand how he actually sees anything and speaks," Wyatt later wrote) realized that the next hit could be fatal for Onslow. In any case, the destroyer should immediately turn and reduce speed so that the wind would not fan the fires.

      “Right on board, navigator. Put on the smoke screen and reduce the speed to 15 knots. "

      The merchant immediately pressed the "Smoke Screen" button, and Wyatt shouted into the communication pipe: "Right 10, speed down to 15 knots."

      The Onslow tilted as it turned, and the spent shell casings clattered across the deck. The entire forecastle in front of the bridge was engulfed in a whirlwind of fire. The dancing flames seemed unnaturally bright in the Arctic twilight. They contrasted sharply with the black smoke and white steam that poured from the chimney. In the light of the flames, dead and wounded sailors could be seen lying around guns A and B.

      http://militera.lib.ru/h/pope_d/15.html
    4. +3
      28 September 2021 22: 52
      Quote: Max PV
      The fact that there were practically no attacks by light forces on battleships in both wars was precisely the merit of the secondary battery.

      There was nothing. Have you already forgotten about Jutland? But the fact that the Germans managed to fight back at night is undoubtedly the merit of the PMK.
  11. +4
    28 September 2021 09: 28
    It seems to me that this is a relatively correct conclusion. "Graf Spee" I think he was glad to have a medium caliber, and the danger of an explosion of ammunition of medium-caliber anti-aircraft guns is no lower (and as it turned out, they are much more useful, but this does not negate what the author writes about: the impossibility of protecting both the guns and the cellars. And which cellar will explode - with a ton of 152mm or with a ton of 127mm is not a big difference. On the American destroyers of the Second World War, a huge number of people died from the explosions of their own depths of bombs, so do not use them? Or torpedoes on Japanese heavy ships? That's really hemorrhoids.
    1. 0
      28 September 2021 16: 19
      Quote: Niko
      "Graf Spee" I think he was glad to have a medium caliber

      According to Kofman, no. Because the Germans managed to stick as many as eight 15-cm guns on the "Panzershiff" without their own PUAO. This is a lot for the sinking of transports. To work on EM, it is not necessary, since all AUOs are busy calculating data for their systems, as a result of which they can shoot 15 cm, but they can only hit at close range.
      Quote: Niko
      On the American destroyers of World War II, a huge number of people died from the explosions of their own depths of bombs, so do not use them?

      And not only American ones. Poor "Kisaragi" died at the very beginning of the war at Wake only because depth charges were detonated after being hit by a 100-pound bomb from "Wildcat". Moreover, some believe that the bombs exploded in general from 12,7 mm bullets (the destroyer sunk by machine-gun fire wink ).
      1. +2
        28 September 2021 19: 00
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Because the Germans managed to stick as many as eight 15-cm guns on the "Panzershiff" without their own PUAO.

        Judging by the documents, the Germans planned to control the secondary battery from the bow PUAO, why this did not work - xs ...
  12. +10
    28 September 2021 09: 38
    Kaptsov, something was not heard for a long time, because Oleg pulled an owl on the globe in his style and waits in the comments of opponents to smear them with his arguments like George the Victorious snake laughing
    Comrade Kaptsov, at one time, no one canceled the threat of attacks by light forces in the form of destroyers and other trifles, therefore they installed the secondary battery for the most part in 6 ", as the most acceptable in terms of the rate of fire and the power of the projectile. The same French tried to use it and for air defense, but you need a good SUAO and a projectile.
    The designers decided that the advantages of the location of this caliber on battleships hypothetically outweigh the disadvantages. And they are right - it is often better to fork out in a volley of 6 "than with an expensive GC. Personally, I would also put a secondary battery on the ship.
    Now for the defense. All cellars are located under the main armor. Therefore, any ammunition that overcomes the main armor can cause an explosion in both the main battery cellars and the secondary battery cellars. Considering the successful sinking of the ship from the explosion of the secondary battery cellar as an example of viciousness is very far-fetched. The danger comes from both 6 "and 5" ammunition, of which there may be even more on the ship and the danger from them is no less.
    And to prevent the ignition of the PMK cellars from getting into the tower or into the supply shafts, Kaptsov, there are structural elements in the form of various automatically closing hatches with reloading compartments.
    And to pour from empty to empty, that two calibers of secondary and air defense systems are worse than one universal, because 6 "shells explode better and louder than 5" - this, Oleg, is for schoolchildren. "Hood" is generally drowned from a fire in a 102 mm cellar anti-aircraft shells. Maybe we can remove the anti-aircraft guns from the ship? wink
    Any ship is balanced for solving certain tasks, weapons are put on it to solve certain tasks. They come to universalism to save something, and even a universal caliber weighs less than two specialized ones, but this does not mean that it can replace secondary armament or air defense systems separately with the required efficiency.
    PS
    If a weapon is present on board, but not used in combat situations, its unused ammunition becomes a source of senseless risks and problems. In this form, the "weapon" poses a greater danger to the ship itself than to the enemy. This situation itself raises questions.

    If you follow this logic, then when you go to sink enemy battleships and no one except battleships, then you need to unload the ammunition stock of station wagons, etc., because it is dangerous and will not be used in a battle with battleships. lol Your logic, comrade Kaptsov Yes request
    1. 0
      28 September 2021 10: 41
      hi
      Only one addition: not "Oleg pulled an owl onto the globe in his own style," but "the owl has already climbed onto the globe itself."
      But the author of the article has a funny point of view on the anti-mine / universal caliber, this cannot be taken away. Although the best articles are on 01.04. turn out ...
      laughing
    2. +1
      28 September 2021 14: 20
      And there is something in it) Was the tree ripped off? Was the excess coal thrown overboard? Why not drop the extra ammunition before a squadron battle?
    3. +1
      28 September 2021 15: 47
      Quote: Rurikovich
      And to pour from empty to empty, that two calibers of secondary and air defense systems are worse than one universal, because 6 "shells explode better and louder than 5" - this, Oleg, is for schoolchildren. "Hood" is generally drowned from a fire in a 102 mm cellar anti-aircraft shells. Maybe we can remove the anti-aircraft guns from the ship?

      How exciting about "Hood" you know much more than the Amiralty commission that investigated his death winked
      1. 0
        28 September 2021 18: 56
        Quote: BORMAN82
        How exciting about "Hood"

        This is just one of the versions that has the right to life. request According to eyewitness testimony from Prince of Wales, a shell from Prince Eugen first hit the Hood's spardek, which caused the charges of the first rounds of 102 mm guns to ignite. Before the main explosion, an upward flare was observed between the second chimney and the main mast.
        Chief Petty Officer William McRedge of Prince of Wales, who in 1940. I set up a 102-mm anti-aircraft gun and trained its calculation, saw the flames bursting out and came to the conclusion that they meant the ignition of ammunition for these guns, which was stored in the fenders of the first shots in easily accessible places. He stated, "I saw a very bright flash. It was so bright that it looked like a flash of magnesium."

        And later
        William Westlake saw plumes of smoke emerge in five or six places just before the explosion. Petty Officer Frederic French noted about Hood's last seconds: “... suddenly the spardeck swelled in the middle between the rear chimney and the mainmast, and everything that I can call cordite combustion products came out from inside the ship from the stern and around the chimney, looking like the top of a hat raised from the inside. "

        At Prince of Wales, almost all witnesses located the epicenter of the explosion between the mainmast and the rear chimney, that is, somewhere above the engine rooms

        So one of the most plausible versions says that first the first shots of 102mm guns lit up first, then the nearby gasoline storage for boats. Then the flame reached the cellars of 102mm guns, which were bombed. And only literally a dozen seconds later, the cellars of the main turret aft towers burst. Eyewitnesses report that two shells hit the starboard side in the area of ​​102 mm installation. A fire was already blazing there, possibly one of them exploded, exacerbating the fire, which inside reached the cellars of the main battery. But this is like one of the versions. Because there are still versions that "Hood destroyed the unexploded Bismarck shell, because after a series of upgrades the horizontal armor of the ship was increased and a normal shell must explode before reaching the cellars. The volley hit, the shell pierced the armor and simply ignited the Hood charge cellar." Of the three main shells hitting the Prince of Wales, two did not explode ...
        So think what you want hi
        1. +2
          28 September 2021 19: 03
          “Thereafter, in August 1941, a second Commission under the chairmanship of Rear Admiral GTK Walker began an investigation. It prepared an opinion, which was dated September 12. The second report did not have any surprises and was more or less complete in relation to to the first. It included the testimony of 176 eyewitnesses to the disaster, of which 71 from the Prince of Wales, 39 from Norfolk, 14 from Suffolk and 2 from Hood. The third rescued from Hood (Midshipman Dundas) was unable to testify to us. Testimony was supplemented by the testimony of two officers who recently served onboard Hood, and several engineers, such as the head of the shipbuilding department (DNC), the head of the naval artillery department (Director of Naval Ordnance), the head of torpedo and mine affairs (Director of Torpedoes and Mining) and the senior superintendent Design Department (Chief Superintendant of the Research Department).
          To summarize, the main points of the report of the second Commission were as follows:
          a. The signal to execute a 27 ° left turn was raised, but not executed;
          b. The fire on the port side of Hood's boat deck began after Bismarck's third or fourth salvo. Most witnesses believed that the flames that appeared were from the ignited cordite of UR anti-aircraft ammunition, as well as, possibly, from the ignition of the nearby 4 "artillery cellars. The flame on the boat deck had nothing to do with the explosion that led to the death of the ship
          c. The evidence regarding the last explosion was divided according to where the witness believed the explosion occurred in front of or behind the mainmast. The Big Bang was similar to the explosion of the battlecruiser cellars of the period of World War I and occurred in the aft cellars;
          d. The overwhelming majority of witnesses either heard a very faint sound during the explosion, or did not hear it at all;
          e. Very few witnesses noticed the presence of debris during the explosion, and the main impression from the explosion was, in their opinion: a very large number of small debris;
          f. The ship sank in about 3 minutes or a little more;
          g. The eyewitness accounts of the fall of Bismarck's volleys described them as follows: the first from the bow, the second from the stern, the third fork with a hit, the fourth very close, the fifth probable hit. It was also noted that one volley from Prinz Eugen landed near the stern of the Hood;
          h. The explosion or detonation of the torpedo warheads is unlikely and, in any case, could not serve as an immediate cause of the ship's death;
          i. The muzzle velocity of the Bismarck projectiles was between 830 and 930 m / s, so a 380 mm projectile could hit right into the main battery cellars. With an increase in speed for 930 m / s, the probability of hitting increased (note by the author - the actual speed of the Bismarck projectile was about 820 m / s);
          j. The possibility of an underwater hit was relatively small, as a fuse delay of about 75 ft (23 m) was required to reach the cellars.
          Page 19 of the report noted:
          1. The death of Hood was a direct consequence of a 15 "Bismarck shell hitting or about 15" Hood vaults, which detonated the ammunition in those vaults and destroyed the stern of the ship. It is likely that 4 "cellars exploded first;
          2. It does not follow from eyewitness accounts that one or two torpedo warheads detonated simultaneously with the cellars, although the possibility of such detonation simultaneously or with a small time difference cannot be completely ruled out. The Commission believes that if they detonated, the effect would not be so catastrophic; in general, we believe that this explosion did not happen;
          3. The flame seen on the Hood's boat deck was undoubtedly caused by the ignition of the ammunition of the universal artillery or 4 "cellars, but it did not cause the ship to die."
          Conclusions of the commission translated into Russian.
          Agree that "102mm shots lit up first" and your statement "Hood is generally drowned from a fire in the cellar of 102mm anti-aircraft shells" are two big differences)))
          1. 0
            28 September 2021 19: 17
            Well, the British came to the conclusion that a shell hit. I don’t argue with that smile There was just a version that the fire was spreading after all. But this is just a version request
          2. 0
            28 September 2021 19: 46
            Quote: BORMAN82
            Agree that "102mm shots fired first"

            Moreover, the British themselves noted
            3. The fire seen on Hood's boat deck, in which UP and / or 4 "fenders were clearly involved, was not the cause of his death.
  13. +3
    28 September 2021 11: 50
    No, that's not the Achilles heel of battleships. Even if there will be no medium and anti-mine caliber at all, there will be only the main one - this will not save the battleship from the main problem. The dramatically increased capabilities of aviation. The increased carrying capacity and accuracy of the aircraft sights allow the dive bomber to raise a very armor-piercing bomb. And to throw it no longer just in silhouette, but targeting vulnerable areas. An aircraft carrier can carry dozens of such aircraft - enough for any battleship. But there are also torpedo bombers that exploit the main vulnerability of battleships - you cannot book under water. This is precisely the Achilles' heel of battleships: aviation can easily sink absolutely any ship.
    1. 0
      29 September 2021 15: 18
      Is that so straightforward and without difficulty? And in the warrant?
      1. 0
        29 September 2021 16: 19
        Indeed. Let's remember the Pacific War. It happened every time: the Americans tracked down the Japanese warrant, sent the AUG there and organized a pogrom. And it happened the other way around: even a single outdated aircraft was enough. So Swordfish stopped Bismarck's escape, after which it remained only to finish off the boat that was walking in circles. True, if there were sensible air defense ships, then the task was greatly complicated. You can even say that it was here that the main struggle took place: the War between heaven and earth. And all the rest are extras or goals.
        1. 0
          30 October 2021 18: 48
          And if the other way around? Why did the Japanese fail?
          1. 0
            30 October 2021 19: 22
            The answer is obvious: the Americans just had just wonderful air defense cruisers, with separation, with radars and shells with radio fuses ... And also - their aircraft carriers with wonderful carrier-based fighters. In such conditions, attacking from the air became an extremely difficult task.
            1. +1
              30 October 2021 20: 13
              Which ones? "Atlanta" is it? The Americans had a warrant. Where every ship worked to protect the compound. Excellent anti-aircraft guns. The necessary (and very high) density of fire. And most importantly - target detection systems and control systems for this fire. No one had such a thing even approximately
  14. -1
    28 September 2021 11: 53
    Cuts the eye:
    ... By a lucky coincidence, the French did not have time to install anti-mine caliber towers on the battleship ...
    ... French aircraft of the "Richelieu" type received three aft anti-mine turrets ...

    With what joy can a medium caliber 152 mm mount be called "mine action"?
    Anti-mine guns - rapid-fire, on the battleships of the "Richelieu" type, rapid-fire guns were 100 mm universal guns.
    In all sources, "Auxiliary artillery consisted of three-gun universal 152-mm mounts"
    The auxiliary one is not "mine action". Foreign sources: Canon de 152 mm Modèle 1930 was a medium-caliber naval gun Is it okay that they were given an elevation angle of 85 degrees in the project? What is the characteristic of a universal tool.
    This can be seen even in the photo of the battleship Richelieu:

    Stop the author gag.
    1. 0
      28 September 2021 13: 33
      An auxiliary battery of 9 152-mm 55-caliber guns (according to project 15) in three-gun turrets (weight 306 tons, of which 66 tons of rotating armor) constituted the main firepower in the aft 70-degree sector, and was also a heavy anti-aircraft one. Due to the large elevation angle and the corresponding charging devices, these guns were called universal, although they were only conditionally, taking into account the low rate of fire and insufficient speeds of the GN (12 ° / s) and VN (8 ° / s).

      Of course, the French 152-millimeter paper was very powerful, capable of penetrating a 10-mm armor plate at a distance of almost 122 km (an armor-piercing 57,14-kg projectile had 3,34 kg of explosive, a charge - 17,3 kg of VMp powder). but for the solution of the tasks facing them, good armor penetration was almost irrelevant. The French intended to use these weapons to repel torpedo attacks from light cruisers and destroyers and to conduct defensive fire with high-explosive shells at aircraft. But the experience of the Second World War showed the low effectiveness of barrage fire - the planes had to be shot down. And the farther from the ship, the better. So all the original design solutions introduced into these tools and installations in an attempt to make them universal were in vain. Only after the war, the continuation of work on the mechanisms of the towers on the Richelieu and Jean Bart allowed 152-mm guns to be fired at elevation angles up to 85 ° - still less than 90 ° indicated in the design specification. Then the rate of fire was brought to 10 rds / min.

      S.Suliga "French battleships" Richelieu "and" Jean Bar " hi
      1. +1
        28 September 2021 17: 20
        The French, like others, did not completely take into account the main purpose of the universal caliber: to be an effective weapon, both against surface targets (completed) and against air targets AT LONG RANGE AND HIGH ALTITUDES (not fulfilled). If against the destroyers of a potential enemy, this system was fully consistent with its purpose, then against aircraft it was not suitable at all. The reason is not at all the low speeds of GN and VN (although this is a matter of mathematics - the number of shells / area of ​​damage) - but the extremely low rate of fire due to separate-case loading using manual operations. A universal weapon must necessarily be based on a unitary ammunition with an exclusively mechanical feed from a consumable cellar in a barbet and loading the weapon at any elevation / declination angle. Of course, this will require dimensions and weight for a universal six-inch twin, no less than for an eight-inch tower of a Washington cruiser. But maybe the corresponding speeds of the GN and VN of the order of 10-12 degrees per second and the rate of fire of 8-10 rounds per minute per barrel is a worthy prize for this price?
      2. +1
        29 September 2021 11: 13
        Quote: Rurikovich
        But the experience of the Second World War showed the low effectiveness of barrage fire - the planes had to be shot down. And the farther from the ship, the better. So all the original design solutions introduced into these tools and installations in an attempt to make them universal were in vain.

        This is the opinion of one individual author.

        With an anti-aircraft firing range of 10000 m in distance and 5000 m in height, the angular displacement is a maximum of several arc minutes - that this art. the system provided quite well. High angular movement speeds are needed for medium-caliber guns (range from 4000 m or less, altitude 4000 m or less. The purpose of such systems is to break up close ranks of bombers on distant approaches. A powerful blasting projectile fully provided the solution to this problem.
        But as soon as the attacking squadrons were divided - transferring the tower from one threatening sector of the attack to the opposite one - took an unacceptably long time. It was this shortcoming that was corrected after the war by increasing the power of the horizontal drives of the 152 mm universal turrets.
        So the "inefficiency" was greatly exaggerated by the authors of the review, either the author did not understand the issue to the end or wrote from other reviews.
        And from my point of view, the most powerful 152 mm universal art system significantly pushed the boundaries of effective anti-aircraft barrage, which led to the dispersal of attacking aircraft, 7-10 km from the target. Its disadvantage is that the specific art system had a low rate of fire at the time of WWII.
        For comparison, the universal caliber 105 mm, 127 mm, 100 mm provided effective barrage fire at a distance of 3-5 km. (height 5000 m) The radius of influence of anti-aircraft fire is two times less.
        Each art system covers its own distances (strongly conditionally, without reference to the ballistics of specific systems):
        152 mm - 10000m to 3000m
        100-127 mm from 5000 to 3000m
        37-45 mm from 4000 to 1000 m
        15-20 mm from 2500 to 50 m
        Each installation has its own speed of angular movement.
        1. 0
          29 September 2021 12: 38
          Thank you so much for your very substantive comment!
          All researchers in the course of preparing fleets for the Second World War came to the conclusion that it is impossible to completely overlap the attack zones with some one caliber.
          Hence the search for the possibility of attracting 150-mm, 152-mm, 155-mm, 180-mm and 203-mm guns to the far zone of the air defense. Moreover, the destructive ability of an anti-aircraft projectile of this caliber significantly exceeded that of "pure" anti-aircraft guns of 90-120 mm caliber. However, everything was spoiled by the low density of fire due to the low rate of fire of 152 - 203 mm, especially at high elevation angles. The result was a search for a compromise in calibers 114 - 133 mm, which, as a rule, gave a relatively acceptable result when firing at air targets and minimally sufficient when firing at sea targets.
          As a result, an air defense system of a large ship of three calibers was formed:
          Anti-aircraft ranged combat 100 - 133 mm;
          Anti-aircraft guns 25 - 40 mm;
          Anti-aircraft machine guns (automatic cannons) 12,7 - 20 mm.
          The latter, however, played rather the role of moral support for the crew. Machine guns of 25-40 mm caliber did not justify themselves too much, since the real defeat of enemy aircraft occurred during the attack of the ship, when bombs and torpedoes were already dropped by carriers on the target.
          When creating a truly universal system of caliber 150 - 155-mm, it became possible to move the far zone of the ship's air defense, and saturate the middle zone with rapid-fire fully automatic guns of caliber 76 - 90 mm, since the industry fired millions of shots for such guns. As a result, the "last frontier" was left with machine guns of 25-30 mm caliber. This would make it possible to significantly increase the efficiency of the air defense of a large ship, while reducing the number of the crew.
  15. 0
    28 September 2021 13: 01
    It is logical, but ... The question is in expediency and in industrial capacities, as well as in the economy. The pinnacle of "specialization" in the navy is the AUG. The attack ship (aircraft carrier) is almost devoid of means of short-range defense against an artillery (not rocket) attack, and from an air raid, too; air defense ships (cruisers and frigates) have no practical means of defeating anything large. In general, consider the farthest line of the order just intelligence and means of guidance for countering anti-ship missiles. In sum, this all solves the issue of combat stability, but separately - no. And it is expensive, very expensive - no more than 5-6 AUG in the WORLD

    In the middle of the last century, it was not possible for each battleship to issue an escort of 3-4 cruisers and the same number of destroyers for reconnaissance. All this together ensured mine defense and anti-submarine defense, and then, yes, only the main battery could be left. But the range of the AUG aircraft is ~ 500 km, the radius of the battleship is well 30 km from the force. That is, to solve the tactical tasks of one AUG, at least 4-6 squadrons from one battleship with an encirclement were required. And this is expensive, very expensive, even if you do not take into account the fact that the enemy will overfill such mini-squads one by one with larger forces. So I had to get out of it, make the ships universal - what if it would come in handy and not have to sink together from a torpedo fan launched from a distance of 5 kilometers from a small and nimble boat from the night fog, on which it is useless to beat the main battery
    1. -2
      28 September 2021 13: 20
      Quote: kamakama
      In the middle of the last century, it was not possible for each battleship to issue an escort of 3-4 cruisers and the same number of destroyers for reconnaissance.

      why do you think so? the Japanese in Tsushima assigned more than a dozen destroyers to each battleship. but I think that it was necessary to build only destroyers and gunboats, but of two types, such as Koreets with a medium caliber, such as Esmeralda with one turret of a very large caliber. Battleships were obsolete by 1903. evidence at the bottom of tsushima
      1. 0
        28 September 2021 19: 51
        Destroyers fighting destroyers? I mean that the secondary battery of battleships becomes unnecessary only when there is a similar mass of guns in another place - on cruisers, in favor of which reconnaissance and target designation destroyers work. In RYaV, reconnaissance destroyers are useless in terms of adjusting fire - there is no reliable and operational radio communication. They will be able to report on the goals, but they will not be able to adjust the fire.
        1. -1
          28 September 2021 20: 46
          Quote: kamakama
          The secondary battery of battleships becomes unnecessary only when there is a similar mass of guns in another place - on cruisers,

          or gunboats
          1. 0
            28 September 2021 21: 23
            Gunboats are the coastal fleet. With all the pros and cons of it. Read about the young school and about the combat stability of small ships in the midst of solid excitement
            1. 0
              28 September 2021 21: 49
              esmeralda
              2920 T displacement
              Length 82,29 m
              Width 12,8 m
              Precipitation 5,64 m
              1. 0
                29 September 2021 21: 33
                https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esmeralda_(1883) - это вот это что ли? Прямой текст
                "In 1899 and 1901, it underwent modernization, during which, in order to increase stability, combat marshes were removed from the cruiser, the main artillery armament was replaced with rapid-fire guns of a smaller caliber, torpedo tubes were replaced" which is smaller. Otherwise it could drown))))

                Armament of Izumi in 1904
                2 × 152-mm
                6 × 120-mm
                2 × 57-mm
                6 × 47-mm

                Quite an ordinary cruiser, both in size and in armament. Not a gunboat :)))
    2. +1
      28 September 2021 20: 40
      In general, the French had your ideas at the end of the 19th century. Read for yourself what came out of this https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_school_(naval_theory)
  16. 0
    28 September 2021 13: 16
    What kind of cretins the ships built is simply amazing. They didn’t understand that we had to put one 800 mm bang, and carry the shells and gunpowder in a submarine on a string, so as not to detonate.
  17. -3
    28 September 2021 13: 17
    undoubtedly respected Oleg Kaptsov is right, there was no need for medium-caliber artillery, and this was simply a consequence of bureaucratic cowardice, inertia of thinking and stupidity of the designers. But let's go further and why are battleships at all? they themselves were from the very beginning an inertia of thought and a mistake. it was necessary to make one-turret ocean gunboats, such as Esmeralda. hero Admiral Makarov was right and I completely agree with him. Now there are no multi-barreled tanks and, in fact, multi-barreled NK and nuclear submarines. Even 16 calibers of a frigate, this is essentially one, albeit a multiply charged installation, even all ICBMs of nuclear submarines are one multiply charged installation.
  18. The comment was deleted.
  19. +1
    28 September 2021 15: 49
    For 6-inch artillery, the claim is as follows: what was the justification for finding such weapons on board battleship-class ships in 1920-1940?

    Insufficient elevation angles and low rate of fire made it impossible to fire at air targets.

    The use of six-inch guns in repelling attacks from light surface forces was devalued by the presence of large-caliber anti-aircraft guns.

    All these theses sound especially good in relation to French LCs of the "Richelieu" type. On which the 152 mm / 55 (6 ") Model 1930 guns were universal... Well, or at least it was designed as a universal one with a high-pressure weapon up to 90 degrees and a rate of fire up to 8 rounds per minute.

    To answer the question "why "Richelieu" 152-mm guns"you just need to open Suliga's monograph or just go to the page of this gun on navweaps, where in the very first paragraph it is written that the DP version (universal version) of this gun was installed on French LKs.
  20. Hog
    0
    28 September 2021 16: 20
    What is the article about? About nothing, pouring from empty to empty.
    On battleships of the Litorio type, the secondary battery was well armored (and this is good in the author's opinion), but he died from being hit by the secondary battery (and this is bad in the author's opinion), etc. absurd.
    6 inches were intended to counter destroyers against which 5 inches or less was already not enough.
    Guided bombs are not an indicator at all, these are weapons from the future against which the armor of the towers and the citadel was not enough.
    The Bismarck was just about 6 inches, and they lived to the very end.
    But on Richelieu 6-inches, the secondary guns and anti-aircraft guns were generally universal.
  21. +2
    28 September 2021 17: 30
    The Massachusetts shell entered the right place at the right angle. The likelihood of such a situevina, for the entire WWII, if sclerosis does not change me, is not even one in a thousand, but even less often. The battle between the Bismarck and the Hood and the execution of the Jean Bara stationed in the port. In other cases, either the shells fell "in the wrong place" or "grenades from the wrong system")))
    1. +1
      28 September 2021 20: 16
      P.S. Sorry, I forgot. Fight "Duke of York" with "Scharnhorst".
      1. 0
        28 September 2021 20: 53
        Quote: TermNachTER
        P.S. Sorry, I forgot. Fight "Duke of York" with "Scharnhorst".

        And there it was not clear to the end what happened.
        The hit in the glacis in the KO-1 area was "invented" by Doolin and Garzke.
        The Germans believed it was a torpedo.
        The British - that the projectile dived, moreover, for some reason, assumed that the projectile damaged the shaft of the right vehicle, and not the KO.
        1. 0
          1 October 2021 09: 51
          From the crew of the Scharnhorst, none of those who were on the command bridge or in the PZH survived, so any version can be put forward, up to the most fantastic. Now, if, following the example of other sunken ships, its remains are examined and a real picture is seen, then we will know for sure.
          1. 0
            1 October 2021 18: 18
            Quote: TermNachTER
            From the crew of the Scharnhorst, none of those who were on the command bridge or in the SEZ survived

            Gunther Strater's interview log says:
            Kurz hinterhen alle Stellen: "Torpedotreffer in Kesselraum I. Geschwindigkeit 8 sm."

            Mashinengautefretor Rolf Zangger survived from KO-1, so he never spoke about a shell hit.

            Quote: TermNachTER
            Now, if, following the example of other sunken ships, its remains are examined and a real picture is seen, then we will know for sure.

            Norwegians and British dived there, and for a long time, only the data are not shared for some reason.
            1. 0
              1 October 2021 20: 16
              The boiler room is not a PEZh. Why norgi or Britons are silent - God is their judge, that's their business.
              1. 0
                1 October 2021 20: 24
                Quote: TermNachTER
                The boiler room is not a PEZh.

                I know I’m not PER. :)
                The Germans did not have a PEZH in our understanding: a separate control post for the power plant, a separate post for survivability, it is also a central post).
                The presence of a survivor from KO-1 who knows nothing about the projectile is indicative: it was in KO-1, according to Dulin-Garzke, which is now (for some reason) considered the main one, that the projectile flew in.
                1. 0
                  1 October 2021 20: 28
                  The hit might not have been KO -1. Therefore, I would like to know the testimony of those who were on the bridge or in the PER. It is clear that the Scharnhorst didn’t have a life-span, but there was some other structure that performed these functions.
    2. 0
      30 September 2021 17: 42
      Operation Catapult On July 3, 1940, the British battleship Resolution covered the French Bretagne, scored two hits. The 381-mm projectile pierced the starboard armor below the waterline under the 4th tower and caused an explosion in the aft artillery cellars of the main caliber.
      1. 0
        30 September 2021 20: 56
        Not entirely correct example. "Brittany" entered service in 1912, no major modernization in the interwar period (increased booking) did not take place. For him, hitting the British 15-dm. deadly anywhere.
        1. 0
          1 October 2021 06: 41
          Quote: TermNachTER
          Brittany "entered service in 1912

          And "Resolution" in 1915 - ships of the same age.
          1. 0
            1 October 2021 09: 46
            In theory, yes, practically no. British battleships even officially received the title of "superdreadnought". And besides, oil heating of boilers, powerful booking and a powerful GK, while the French remained just dreadnoughts, to put it mildly, not the best.
  22. +2
    28 September 2021 18: 33
    I dare say to the noble assembly, but the discussion is going exclusively from the modern point of view of the question. Which, in turn, does not bring the meeting closer not only to the truth, but also to the truth ...
    The armament of ships of this period was considered in the same way as the armament of soldiers of the same period. As well as the armament of everything and everything of those years. As one-piece, versatile (depending on the tasks)
    military mechanism. No more no less. Rifle - GK, soldier's revolver - SK, bayonet - anti-aircraft guns, grenades - torpedoes ... That is, for all occasions or combat. And in the process of arming the subject, the desired and the actual always fought between themselves. High quality and inexpensive. Real and projected.
    And believe me, the question of the number of shells and explosives underfoot or below deck was at the end of the list of questions for discussion ...
    Was there any logic in these actions? Was. But not ours, not the present. And it is not surprising that EXPERIENCE became the main criterion in the actions of military officials of those years. The theory was trailing somewhere in the tail.
    Something like this, my judgment. All the best.
    1. +1
      28 September 2021 20: 46
      Military theorists of all times are required to:
      a) an objective analysis of existing threats and countermeasures;
      b) anticipating changes in the balance of defense / attack during the construction of a new generation of the fleet.
      The destroyer / six-inch balance was determined back in 1921. It remained to determine the bomber (torpedo bomber) / anti-aircraft gun balance for 1934 - 1939.
      If the task fails, then the sofa descendants have every right to have their own judgment on the matter.
  23. 0
    28 September 2021 19: 53
    ... However, the medium caliber received no attention. As if the threat of detonation of 20 tons of gunpowder in the stern ...

    Gunpowder "detonation" ?! Gunpowder burns quickly, but does not detonate.
    1. +1
      28 September 2021 20: 08
      Quote: Thomas N.
      Gunpowder burns quickly, but does not detonate.

      "Hood" disagrees with you.
      1. +2
        28 September 2021 20: 37
        Good evening, Maxim!
        Let me disagree with you.
        It was the rapid increase in the pressure of the propellant with the rupture of the bonds of the combustion volume, and not the detonation with the crushing of the barrier, that became the final point in Hood's career.
        By the way, the explosions of unitary cartridges, perceived as asterisks in a smoke mushroom during the explosion of the Huda GK cellars, clearly indicate the root cause of the disaster.
        1. 0
          28 September 2021 20: 49
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          By the way, the explosions of unitary cartridges, perceived as asterisks in a smoke mushroom during the explosion of the Huda GK cellars, clearly indicate the root cause of the disaster.

          Unitars generally explode badly, and the fact that they were "knocked out" of the cellar as a whole does not prove anything.
          1. +2
            28 September 2021 21: 38
            I dug into this issue for a long time about 30 years ago.
            It turned out (along with hit simulation):
            Bismarck's projectile (most likely) ducked under the main armor belt and went through the fuel tank with a faulty fuse to cut the racks with unitary four-inch cartridges. They became the root cause of the disaster. The fire in the cellar and the scattering of cartridges led to the initiation of the head fuses and their detonation, including the bulkhead of the main caliber aft cellars. Further - the ignition of cordite and an increase in pressure, which increases the burning rate. As a result, the ship bursts with internal pressure with the ejection of everything that gets in the way of the fiery tornado. Hence the "stars". The explosion of "Arizona" proceeded very similarly.
            By the way, only two hits ABOVE the main belt (out of about 200 combinations) went directly into the main caliber cellar during the simulation. With an underwater trajectory with a faulty fuse - about 75%.
            1. 0
              28 September 2021 22: 01
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              along with hit simulation

              How did you simulate it?
              1. +3
                29 September 2021 09: 04
                Yes, we were young and decided to create a computer game "Rheinubung" with all the participants. In reality, models of the movement of targets and their own movement were created, the ballistics of the main caliber and the interaction of the projectile with a complex obstacle were worked out according to the tables (well, here the tankers helped).
                They began to simulate the battle in the Danish Strait. The version of the Hood's defeat through the decks immediately disappeared, we could not get to the cellars and through the middle belt (7 "). In my opinion, I had to use the roll towards the Bismarck so that the projectile would not get too normalized and reliably enter the bevel. we didn’t know then, but by analogy with hitting the Prince of Wales we simulated the same for the Hood (it was difficult with the underwater trajectory). I went to cut cartridges in the racks, but then everything was like in a tank. It is possible (but unlikely) activation of the 380-mm projectile itself by a contact explosion. And most importantly: at real target angles, all the projectiles pierced the side and PTZ.
                1. 0
                  29 September 2021 18: 17
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  Yes, we were young and decided to create a computer game "Rheinubung" with all the participants.

                  I see. Thanks...
    2. 0
      28 September 2021 23: 02
      Quote: Thomas N.
      Gunpowder "detonation" ?! Gunpowder burns quickly, but does not detonate.

      And it burns and detonates if you squeeze harder. Black is better, less smokeless, but in general both propellants can detonate.
  24. 0
    28 September 2021 21: 29
    Tell me, is the last battleship (Vanguard) created taking into account all the lessons of the Second World War, or is it a modernization of battleships from the times of Jutland (the fact that the main battalion is second-hand is not taken into account)?
    1. +1
      28 September 2021 21: 59
      Quote: bk0010
      Tell me, and the last battleship (Vanguard) was created taking into account all the lessons of World War II

      If it was built taking into account all the lessons of the Second World War, then it would be an aircraft carrier and called "Malta". :)

      Quote: bk0010
      is it the modernization of battleships from the times of Jutland (the fact that the main company is second hand is not taken into account)?

      Excluding GC - this is "King George 5" of a healthy person.
      To build a ship according to the experience of WWII, it must begin to design in September 45th and be completed somewhere by September 51st. But it will be out of date anyway.
      For a look at ships designed and ready to build based on actual WWI experience, look for information on British N-3 (St Andrew) and G-3 (Indefatigable) LCRs.
      1. 0
        29 September 2021 22: 56
        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
        To build a ship according to the experience of WWII, it must begin to design in September 45th and be completed somewhere by September 51st. But it will be out of date anyway.
        Why, Des Moines in 1948 made the perfect WWII cruiser. So no one even designed the ideal battleship.
        1. 0
          30 September 2021 18: 23
          Quote: bk0010
          Why, Des Moines in 1948 made the perfect WWII cruiser.

          A bit wrong. "Des Moines" was built according to the TTZ issued at the end of 42 based on the experience of the battles for Guadalcanal ...
          No more, no less.
    2. Hog
      0
      28 September 2021 22: 06
      Vanguard is a modified type of KG5, on which the main guns were installed from the old LKR because the new 406mm wasn't ready yet.
      Those. this is not a modernization of battleships of the times of Jutland, and not a battleship created taking into account all the lessons of the Second World War.
  25. +2
    28 September 2021 23: 13
    Excellent article.
    Earlier I didn’t think about this issue.
  26. 0
    28 September 2021 23: 27
    I liked the article as a whole, there are interesting details that have not come across before. Thanks to the author.

    Although, of course, the author's conclusion about the complete uselessness of an anti-mine caliber looks hasty. The absence of the need for a secondary battery can only be justified if in real history battleships have never happened to meet destroyers in battle. Which, of course, is not at all the case.

    There were many such collisions, but the most striking was, of course, Jutland. Probably it can be recalled that out of 155 Jellicoe ships, 72 destroyers and 5 leaders from seven different fleets were involved from the British side. And the Germans have half of the pennants destroyers.

    In the course of the battle, several oncoming attacks by destroyers from both sides followed during the day, the British lost three ships perished, and three more were seriously damaged. In turn, the German fleet lost four destroyers. In addition, the British 13th Flotilla was able to achieve a torpedo hit in the bow of the battle cruiser Seydlitz.

    Well, the funniest thing started, of course, at 23:30. 12 destroyers of the 4th Flotilla were the first to stumble upon the German battleships. Then the 9th and 10th flotilla, at about 2:00, attacked the 12th flotilla. The British are often criticized for stupidly orchestrated attacks, firing almost all torpedoes but detonating only Pomerne. In fact, the Germans managed to fight back. In general, during the Battle of Jutland, the British lost one leader and seven destroyers, many ships were seriously damaged or suffered losses in crews.

    Well, and a rhetorical question - what would have happened to these dreadnoughts that night, had the Germans not had a full-fledged anti-mine caliber of 150 mm? The author's conclusion about the uselessness of the PMC looks overly hasty.
  27. 0
    29 September 2021 05: 53
    And what is the alternative?
    Keeping only the 100mm station wagon? (Or 75mm? Or 40mm pom-poms / boofors?)
  28. 0
    29 September 2021 06: 22
    For classic linear combat, 152 mm are rather unnecessary. because there will be someone to cover their battleships from enemy destroyers.
    True, the classic linear battle of battleships after Jutland did not really happen. The battleship ceased to be the main one on the battlefield and more and more often became simply a means of qualitatively strengthening the order of an aircraft carrier group or long-range cover of convoys. Therefore, the chance to meet something other than a heavily armored fellow has increased many times over. And to shoot at cardboard cruisers and especially transports from the main battery is wasteful and not always effective.
    And as for the destroyers, they correctly wrote above that the destroyer cannot be quickly stopped from the station wagons. After all, the main thing is not to let the destroyer fire torpedoes, especially if it is Japanese. And here 6 inches is better than 4.
    1. 0
      29 September 2021 13: 08
      The battleship ceased to be the main one on the battlefield and more and more often became just a means of qualitatively strengthening the order of the aircraft carrier group.



      In fact, they still have a niche, provided that this is a "nanonanonanolinkor" - a small and very heavily armored artillery boat with a ram and habitable volumes installed on shock absorbers and basic mechanisms (like mine cars). This would be useful when guarding borders where you regularly have to ram and bulk.
      1. 0
        20 December 2021 16: 38
        Small and heavily armored will be very, very slow-moving, and he does not ram anyone due to congenital limp.
        1. +1
          20 December 2021 17: 09
          Armored boats are quite alive and well right now. And they know how to run fast. But no one specially designed them for battering rams and this, it turns out, is in demand.
          1. 0
            26 December 2021 14: 24
            Uh-huh, only armored boat booking, how to put it more mildly ... well, one name, that booking.
            1. 0
              26 December 2021 15: 19
              Well, that's a reason to make normal battleships. They will be useful in a small format, since they are inexpensive, durable and resistant to operational loads and they can be used where a modern ship can be damaged. The same anti-piracy activity - send one halfway across the world and he will drown. And the artillery boats will have enough of an ordinary little-equipped port and a floating base. If drowned then pick up and dry, as they say.
              1. 0
                30 December 2021 15: 20
                With normal armor, these boats will turn into irons. There is no need to ram anyone, the AK-630 will consume anyone who can be sent to the bottom by ramming a boat. And to the question of battering rams ... mechanisms and devices are extremely disliked by sudden shocks.
                1. 0
                  30 December 2021 15: 53
                  The point is that opening fire will sometimes give more problems than a ship crumpled from a heap. Remember the South Korean Boeing. A bunch of fishermen can trespass. The US Navy destroyer Chafee was also recently pushed abroad without opening fire.
                  https://www.rbc.ru/politics/15/10/2021/616985749a7947818d2c71b5
                  1. 0
                    31 December 2021 01: 55
                    To me, frankly, your logic is incomprehensible. What is the fundamental difference how to sink a poaching vessel - with a cannon, or with a ram? And you can't write off even an accident, because you propose to build it into a system.
                    1. 0
                      31 December 2021 02: 14
                      Poachers and all sorts of violators have state ownership and citizenship. As for the prevailing international law, ill-founded shooting at foreign citizens and property often leads to military conflicts by other states that are of no use to anyone. There are exceptions for all filibuster pirates. Therefore, they try to avoid shooting, unless of course there is an opportunity. The point is that piles and rams are not legally classified as the use of weapons, which makes it possible not to get involved in endless conflicts. That is why it is worth making at least some ships initially adapted for this. In a similar way, warships are butted in many countries, not only in the Russian Federation, you can just watch the media.
                      1. 0
                        1 January 2022 14: 27
                        You, in my opinion, simply do not understand. One battering ram - will pass for an accident. The second - will make you wary. And the third is the system. And in this regard, it does not differ from shooting in anything, except that you need to repair your vessel.
  29. 0
    29 September 2021 08: 57
    The situation with the ships is understandable. It's all about the psychology and features of human thinking. What is a ship of the line in general? This is a cannon platform. What is it for? In order for the ships to converge in two lines, against each other, at pistol distance, and thrash the sides of the opponents with shells until these sides are surrendered. How long did this situation last? Yes, perhaps four hundred years!
    And suddenly everything went off the chain - the industrial revolution! The sailors got their hands on tools that they absolutely did not own, and in general, they had absolutely no idea what to do with them. There was no experience. In the First World War, all fleets were thrashed into the white light as a penny, not having the slightest idea how to correctly direct new, yet unseen guns on new ships that had never been tested in real big battles.
    What has changed since WWI? And almost nothing. The engineers worked, but according to the instructions of inert, inflexible, unaccustomed to the correct thinking of sailors. It sounds sad, but failures are explained only by this. Yes, the sailors were professionals. But what does this mean? So this is just the fact that they cooked all their lives in the naval environment. They had some knowledge, even engineering training, but by no means the skill to THINK.
    Thinking in such a way as to take into account the only impending threat is a separate skill, a special one. And he is not taught anywhere. They tried it in the USSR, but ...
  30. 0
    29 September 2021 12: 43
    In absolute terms, the damage was expressed in tens of tons of explosives that were just on board, always ready to detonate when the cellars were hit.


    Battleships fell out of use before they were engaged in liquid binary propellants.
    And do not forget about cryogenic technology - having oxygen stations on board is safer than powder magazines, provided that they are highly productive and very quickly give a liquid oxidizer "on demand and exactly how much is needed" and do not work to accumulate it in containers.
  31. +1
    29 September 2021 15: 09
    Nice text. Correct. And that means the Americans with their single universal turned out to be right. Not just one indicator.
    1. 0
      29 September 2021 18: 30
      Quote: Cormoran
      And that means the Americans with their single universal turned out to be right. Not just one indicator.

      As I wrote above: give examples of how American LKs with their universal caliber repulsed attacks from destroyers. :)
      1. 0
        30 October 2021 19: 05
        And those were?
        1. 0
          30 October 2021 19: 27
          Quote: Cormoran
          And those were?

          Actually, this is what I want to find out ...;)
          1. 0
            30 October 2021 20: 02
            I am aware of the night, the Japanese destroyers were preparing for them conceptually, but I'm not sure about the day ones.
            1. 0
              30 October 2021 20: 09
              Quote: Cormoran
              I am aware of the night

              And what kind of night attacks were there on the American LC?
              1. 0
                30 October 2021 20: 21
                The cruisers were.
                1. 0
                  30 October 2021 20: 47
                  Quote: Cormoran
                  The cruisers were.

                  The question is not about the cruisers that helped themselves with the main battalion, but about the LC.
                  1. 0
                    30 October 2021 21: 56
                    At night, the main battery does not work without artillery radars.
                    1. 0
                      31 October 2021 11: 01
                      How do you think Lee stoked the Kirishima? :)
                      1. 0
                        31 October 2021 16: 06
                        So it was in some year already? And not on cruisers killed by Japanese destroyers in a night torpedo battle. Feng shui.
                      2. 0
                        31 October 2021 17: 19
                        Quote: Cormoran
                        So it was in some year already?

                        November 1942 ...

                        Quote: Cormoran
                        And not on cruisers killed by Japanese destroyers in a night torpedo battle.

                        Are you talking about Tassafarong?
                      3. 0
                        31 October 2021 17: 39
                        About Tassafarong. Including. By the way, "Kirishima" was hit not by the radar, but by the flashes of its own shots. Almost point blank.
                      4. 0
                        31 October 2021 18: 12
                        Quote: Cormoran
                        About Tassafarong.

                        Well, here everything is just simple: the Japanese were in the radar shadow of the wreck.
                        "Takanami" was exposed as "live bait", and the rest of the EM Tanaka fired at the flashes of the muzzle flame.

                        Quote: Cormoran
                        By the way, "Kirishima" was hit not by the radar, but by the flashes of its own shots.

                        Morison and Lundgren write that the fire was conducted according to radar data.
                      5. 0
                        31 October 2021 19: 02
                        With 30 cables?
                      6. 0
                        31 October 2021 19: 18
                        Quote: Cormoran
                        With 30 cables?

                        Since the 42s.
                        At 0100 when Atago turned on her search lights, Washington's main battery opens fire bearing 008 degrees true, range 8,400 yards on target, identified as a battleship. Main battery was on full radar control, however her FC and SG radars could not distinguish shell splashes, which thus had to be observed optically.
                      7. 0
                        31 October 2021 20: 38
                        The advertisement is engine of the trade. In cable, by the way, 200 yards.
                      8. 0
                        31 October 2021 20: 42
                        Quote: Cormoran
                        The advertisement is engine of the trade.

                        What kind of advertisement?
                        Lundgren's work was written in 2009: where is 1942 and where is 2009?

                        Quote: Cormoran
                        In cable, by the way, 200 yards.

                        Divide 8400 by 200 and get 42. No?
                      9. 0
                        31 October 2021 21: 01
                        For the main caliber LK and 60 - the distance of the pistol shot.
                      10. 0
                        31 October 2021 21: 03
                        Quote: Cormoran
                        For the main caliber LK and 60 - the distance of the pistol shot.

                        Does this somehow affect the fact that radar was used to control the fire on the Washington DC? :)
                      11. 0
                        31 October 2021 21: 09
                        Affects. From the radar they hit out of line of sight. And there was just a line of sight.
                      12. 0
                        31 October 2021 21: 16
                        Quote: Cormoran
                        From the radar they hit out of line of sight.

                        In 42, there were no over-the-horizon radars yet.
                      13. 0
                        31 October 2021 21: 34
                        At night and in fresh weather, "horizon" is a very relative term.
                      14. 0
                        31 October 2021 21: 40
                        Quote: Cormoran
                        At night and in fresh weather, "horizon" is a very relative term.

                        That is why the "Washington" used radar for fire control.
                      15. 0
                        31 October 2021 22: 39
                        Okay, okay
                      16. 0
                        31 October 2021 22: 42
                        OK OK. Nehay bude grechka. Only historians write history only, but completely different people do it.
                      17. 0
                        1 November 2021 17: 50
                        Quote: Cormoran
                        Only historians write history only, but completely different people do it.

                        If you have data from "other people", then please go to the studio ... :)
                      18. 0
                        1 November 2021 18: 41
                        The initial identification of the target and the first salvo of "Washington" really came from the radar, but the adjustment had to be done according to the optics data. Radars did not detect bursts.
                      19. 0
                        1 November 2021 19: 05
                        Quote: Cormoran
                        but the correction had to be made already according to the optics data. Radars did not detect bursts.

                        In theory, yes.
                        How was it in practice?
                      20. 0
                        2 November 2021 07: 52
                        There is a very detailed description of the battle. At navweaps.com. Minute. From the board of each of the participants. There in black and white.
                      21. 0
                        2 November 2021 18: 23
                        Quote: Cormoran
                        There is a very detailed description of the battle.

                        I am aware that there is an article by Lundgren. :)
                      22. 0
                        3 November 2021 09: 05
                        Why then questions?
                      23. 0
                        3 November 2021 16: 59
                        Quote: Cormoran
                        Why then questions?

                        Is Lundgren the only source?
                      24. 0
                        5 November 2021 05: 30
                        I'm not a floatoman. Walking man, foot infantryman. I just have great respect for the American solution of the universal caliber.
                      25. 0
                        5 November 2021 11: 31
                        Quote: Cormoran
                        I just have great respect for the American solution of the universal caliber.

                        Not ... The antiaircraft gun certainly turned out to be good.
                        But about the versatility - the question is open.
                      26. 0
                        6 November 2021 01: 24
                        The barrel length and the mass of the projectile are very well balanced. Up to 39 calibers, you can use a howitzer-type projectile, relatively thin-walled and with a large amount of explosives. Further complications begin. Separate loading, oddly enough, gave a significant increase in the rate of fire, that is, the density of fire per unit time. And now all this is in the head of a destroyer breaking through to the battleship at the distance of a torpedo salvo.
                      27. 0
                        6 November 2021 10: 30
                        Quote: Cormoran
                        And now all this is in the head of a destroyer breaking through to the battleship at the distance of a torpedo salvo.

                        Everything would be fine, but this is just a naked theory ...
                      28. 0
                        6 November 2021 13: 23
                        I won't argue. But on destroyers against a five-inch caliber, there is no armor, and 14 authorized per minute is 14 per minute. Multiply by the side trunks. Even at horizontal displacement and at full speed, it will fly in any direction. And already on maneuvering ...
                      29. 0
                        6 November 2021 14: 15
                        Quote: Cormoran
                        I won’t argue.

                        A couple more numbers ...
                        Firing range at surface targets 5 "/ 38 Mk.12 - 15000 m.
                        The torpedo range of the 61 cm Type 93 Model 3 is 15000 m at 50 knots.
                        This I mean that there is no point in "throwing himself on the knife" because even one warhead of 780 kg is enough to make the LC very bad ...
                      30. -1
                        6 November 2021 16: 36
                        This is according to the passport. And in the face?
                        Confident torpedo speed - 40-50 knots.
                        Go - come.
                      31. 0
                        6 November 2021 17: 26
                        Quote: Cormoran
                        And in the face?
                        And in the face it is unknown, since the American LC did not repulse a single attack from destroyers due to their absence ... :)
                      32. 0
                        7 November 2021 08: 25
                        Oga oga. In order to hit with a minimum probability of a four-pipe salvo, you need to get at least 40 cables. I emphasize - at least. Kabeltov at full speed for 12 seconds in the best case for a destroyer. Two shots of one barrel. In the best case for a destroyer. Good luck, scouts. With the American MSA.
                      33. 0
                        7 November 2021 11: 13
                        Quote: Cormoran
                        Oga oga.

                        As you wish... :)
                        Anyway, you don't have any examples from practice.
                      34. 0
                        7 November 2021 15: 58
                        Yes, I'm generally on other matters. To blow up a thread of a helluva lot of secret alebo to shoot someone from an incredible distance is ours. And the striped men deal with Moreman affairs.
  32. 0
    30 September 2021 11: 25
    In general, the secondary battery of battleships is one of the few types of naval weapons that have fully justified their existence.
    There are very few examples of successful mine attacks. It's either night, or a huge advantage in strength, or both, like the Surigao Strait. Or it is an attack on ships that do not have a separate secondary battery, such as the Japanese heavy cruisers in Leyte Bay.
    In European waters, battleships successfully fought off destroyers. Even Italians lol! The only example, the heroic Akasta, did not survive his luck.
    The Americans did not have to repel the mine attacks.
    In general, it is possible to speak about the superiority of American ships and their weapons only theoretically, due to the fantastic superiority in forces.
    1. 0
      30 September 2021 18: 26
      Quote: Grossvater
      ! The only example, the heroic Akasta, did not survive his luck.

      There are two points:
      1. "Akasta" went on the attack on "Gneisenau", "Scharnhorst" just turned up under torpedoes ...
      2. All that is possible, not just secondary battery, fired at Akasta.
      1. 0
        1 October 2021 07: 23
        Ess-but! There would be slingshots, they would shoot from slingshots. Vaughn, Blucher Meteora, just seated the stoker from the GC. But, if we talk about repelling the attacks of destroyers, then 6 "is optimal. And if the use of three calibers on pickpockets was outright stupidity, then why not on the LC. There was enough space.
    2. 0
      30 October 2021 20: 05
      Not certainly in that way. The American universal five-inch gun was very thoughtful and balanced. No one stood near or near.
  33. 0
    15 October 2021 14: 10
    The author is certainly a fine fellow, however ... How will he prove this opus to people with big stars or crosses, who have great authority, who repeatedly look "death in the face" - admirals? The main behest of which has always been the phrase, it seems Admiral Popov, - "Ships are built for cannons"! wink
    The effectiveness for combat of the versatility of the air defense / secondary battery barrels seems to be obvious, especially in connection with the development of naval aviation, however, for example, 150 mm artillery would be more useful to the Germans in raider operations. And the author did not write, but what kind of protection did the American universal turret installations with 127mm cannons have, and under them there were also ammunition storage ... Well, to understand which is better, of course, it was necessary to PASS the war ... that heavy cruisers should be "sharpened" for artillery, and the presence of torpedo armament on board will sooner or later turn into a disaster for the carrier itself ...
  34. -1
    14 November 2021 14: 32
    The inertness and cowardice of the customers of the weapons. "If it didn't work out." The loss of the ship, assessed by the commission as insufficiently armed for battle, is the trial and punishment of the technical requirements writer. Undermining the arsenal? This happens. Here the fault can only be insufficient booking (we see what perversions the battleships approached at the end of the century) and the captain's setting up a sore spot. The eternal struggle between narrow specialization and versatility.
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