Military Review

Where do we go: on the development of the Russian Navy

173

The modernized Marshal Shaposhnikov is the new face of the Pacific fleet


This article arose after reading the article by Roman Skomorokhov "What can we do in modern Russia." It was not written for the sake of discussion, since to argue with the problems that the respected Roman voiced is to contradict common sense. There are problems, and they are, perhaps, even deeper than those voiced by the author.

But there was a need to present a broader view of the problems of the Russian fleet. Try to comprehend: where are we and where can we move? The author of this article does not consider what is stated in it to be the ultimate truth, rather, it is just thinking aloud.

Problems of the Russian fleet


Problem number 1 of the Russian fleet in all eras of its stories - even though the Russian Empire, even the USSR, even the Russian Federation - this is a geographical factor.

The United States has two fleets - in the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. Japan, China, Great Britain, France, Italy, Turkey, Germany - they have, in fact, one fleet, which they can gather into a single fist at any time.

Russia, on the other hand, has four (!) Fleets and one flotilla, which, in the event of a real war, will be completely isolated from each other. This is our given: it has always been this way, and over time the situation has only worsened, since the speed of hostilities has only increased recently.

In the era of the USSR, this problem was somewhat smoothed out due to the fact that we had allies in the ATS, a powerful economy and industry, which made it possible to maintain a really powerful fleet. At present, the task has become more complicated: it is necessary to very competently dispose of rather limited economic resources.


Patrol icebreaker of project 23550 - a powerful vessel without a clear concept of use

And here we are faced with problem number 2 - the difficulties of strategic planning.

Simply put, in general, there are doubts about the presence of at least some reasonable planning.

Judge for yourself, dear readers: patrol ships of project 22160 are being built, the real value of which in battle is zero.

Project 23550 ice-class patrol ships are being built: two for the Navy, one for the FSB Border Service. Naturally, the real combat value of these ships is also zero. Of course, there is some kind of weapons on them, they even threaten to place "Caliber", but this is not a combat ship. It is quite normal for the FSB to have such patrol officers, but why would the Navy need them?

But this is a spent budget, berths, regular maintenance.

More examples?

You are welcome!

Corvettes of projects 20385 and the latest versions of 20380 - with problematic radar "Zaslon". More on this in the articles of M. Klimov.

But that's not all - it is necessary to mention the nuclear submarine of projects 09851/09852/09853. These are special-purpose nuclear submarines, which, according to the media, should be carriers of Poseidon nuclear torpedoes. Despite the fact that the Poseidon itself has not yet passed the tests, has never been launched from a standard carrier, nevertheless, three (!) Nuclear submarines are being built for it.

For the sake of fairness, it should be said that special-purpose nuclear submarines still need to be updated. The Navy now has one such submarine - BS-64 "Podmoskovye". Perhaps one of the nuclear submarines under construction will replace it.

And finally, the project 20386 corvette, which is likely to remain in a single copy in the form of an experimental vessel.

The author has no doubt that these problem projects can be the subject of discussion. And corvettes 22160, and ice patrolmen 23550, and nuclear submarines SPN theoretically can be justified. But, perhaps, being good at performing some local tasks, these ships in no way solve the main task - victory in a naval war.


The Il-38N is not a bad machine, but, unfortunately, the modernization program has stalled ...

Problem # 3 is maritime aviation.

While some progress has been made with ships and submarines, the renewal of naval aviation is proceeding extremely slowly, and in most areas it is not at all.

Over the past 10 years, naval aviation received 22 Su-30SM, 24 - MiG-29K / KUB and 8 - Il-38N. Not a single aircraft or AWACS helicopter, not a single electronic warfare aircraft, not a single new anti-submarine aircraft or helicopter.

The problem is especially acute with target designation for anti-ship missiles. According to media reports, only the Il-38N is capable of detecting surface targets at a distance of 320 km and issuing target designation for them. However, there was not a single message in the media about the use of the Il-38N for targeting anti-ship missiles during the exercise.

At the same time, the Liana space targeting system is not ready for use, according to some reports, it is planned to bring it to readiness within 10 (!) Years ...

So, in terms of target designation, the Russian fleet has two Ka-31 and 8th Il-38N AWACS helicopters, which theoretically can issue target designation for anti-ship missiles.

Which direction could we go?


The answer to this question can only be given hypothetically. By designating the desired and, if possible, combining it with the realizable.

Obviously, we cannot have an adequate fleet in all 4 directions.

On the Black Sea, given the possibilities of our budget and our industry, we will inevitably yield to Turkey, and there is nothing to say about the Baltic Sea - there is a large fleet of the FRG, in the Far East - Japan and its huge fleet.

Therefore, it is most reasonable to have one powerful naval fist in one of the directions, and to complete the remaining directions on a leftover basis.

According to the author of this article, priority should be given to the Pacific Fleet.

Why?

The answer is simple - there is a problem here that is being solved primarily by the forces of the fleet, namely the Kuril Islands. Moreover, both Kamchatka and Chukotka are a huge region without railways and practically without normal highways. Most of its supply goes by sea. If we want to control this region, then we must dominate the Sea of ​​Okhotsk.

Again, even if we do not consider a possible conflict with Japan over the Kuril Islands, even in this case, the forces available in the Far East are categorically insufficient to cover the SSBN.

Will our submarines be able to shoot at the territory of the United States in this case?

It is impossible to predict with certainty, but the likelihood of successful completion of a combat mission can be increased by strengthening the Pacific Fleet.

Of course, strengthening the Pacific Fleet is possible at the expense of other fleets. And in the short term, it can be carried out only through the transfer of NK and submarines from the Black Sea, the Baltic and even partially the Northern Fleet.

But are we really losing so much by weakening our other fleets?

After all, there is zero sense from the Baltic Fleet in the event of a conflict with NATO. It makes no sense to keep large NKs here. They will be destroyed quickly and easily. On the Black Sea, the situation is similar: we have only Ukraine out of our real opponents. Against it will be enough MRK, IPC and a pair of submarines, given the capabilities of the coastal missile systems "Bal" and "Bastion", as well as aviation. The Caspian Flotilla can be attracted to help the Black Sea Fleet, since the transfer of ships from the Caspian to the Black Sea has recently been worked out.

Ideally, we could have about 30 large NC and nuclear submarines and about 15 diesel-electric submarines in the Pacific Ocean. Of course, the Japanese navy is still stronger. However, if in parallel to develop naval aviation, to supply coastal missile systems to the Far East, to solve the problem with target designation, to place in the Far East "Calibers" with special warheads that would keep the most important Japanese airfields at gunpoint.

In this case, the likelihood of a conflict with Japan is significantly reduced. The readiness for war is quite capable of preventing the war itself ...

Of course, for a large fleet to be based in the Far East, many tasks need to be solved: to provide servicemen with decent living conditions, to ensure the supply of fuel and lubricants and ammunition to the fleet, to put in order the ship repair enterprises, and, if necessary, create additional capacities. However, you need to understand that all this is investments in the economy of the Far East, the creation of jobs for thousands of people, and the improvement of logistics. This would be very useful for the development of the region.

Separately, it should be said about aircraft carriers.

Place "Admiral Kuznetsov" - in the Far East.

If we look at how the air cover of the southern Kuriles is organized, it is striking that they are practically out of the coverage area of ​​aviation from most of the local air bases. From Vozdvizhenka, Nikolaevka and Central Corner to the Southern Kuriles, taking into account the bending of the territory of Japan, the distance is about 1 km. Su-200s will not be able to operate at such a range, having a combat radius of about 34 km. For the Su-1 SM and Su-100S, the range of 30 km is close to the limit, their combat radius is about 35 km.

There is no need to talk about Yelizovo in Kamchatka, from there to the Southern Kuriles it is about 1 km. This is the limit for the MiG-370. Relatively effective air cover for the South Kuriles is possible only from the Kamenny Ruchey airbase near the Soviet harbor (here the distance is about 31 km) or from the Yasny airfield on Iturup.

Needless to say, the Japanese Air Force is in much better conditions, just look at the map.

Therefore, the presence of aircraft carriers in the Far East is necessary to cover the fleet and the Southern Kuriles.

Of course, Admiral Kuznetsov alone will be of little use: a small air group, outdated machines. However, the Japanese navy is still not Americans. In the near future, they can only convert several helicopter carriers under the F 35B.

The result?


Of course, the idea of ​​creating a powerful fleet in the Far East can hardly be developed.

The leadership of each of our 4 fleets strives to prove their worth to the Ministry of Defense and actively lobbies their interests. We can only hope that the leadership of our Navy has specific strategic plans in case of war in the Far East.

Nevertheless, even in these conditions, much of what is necessary, first of all, can be done.

1. Modernization and development of infrastructure in the Far East so that the Pacific Fleet is able to receive additional ships, including aircraft carriers.

2. Revival of naval aviation. This is one of the most important tasks.

First of all - the creation of new anti-submarine aircraft or a significant modernization of existing ones. The creation of AWACS marine aircraft is a difficult task (there are no approaches to it yet), but it must be solved.

Reconstruction of naval missile-carrying aviation. Apparently, the Tu-22M3M project is unlikely to be developed - there are too few machines in satisfactory condition. Therefore, now it is possible to rely mainly on the Su-30SM, which seems to be chosen as the main aircraft of naval aviation. It would be reasonable to adapt the Su-30SM for the use of Onyx or Brahmos missiles (there were reports in the media that the Defense Ministry was considering the possibility of purchasing these missiles). If we talk about the number of Su-30SM in naval aviation, now there are about 22, another 21 units have been ordered. Obviously, this is absolutely not enough for naval aviation. Their number must be increased to 150, at least 100 units.

3. Creation of a new anti-submarine corvette or small anti-submarine ship to replace the Soviet IPC projects 1124 and 1331.

4. Solving the problem with torpedoes.

It's no secret that our Navy is armed with obsolete torpedoes (for more details, see the articles of M. Klimov). To date, it is known only about plans to purchase 73 UET-1 torpedoes until 2023. Moreover, UET-1, although undoubtedly better than the old USET-80, is still far from its foreign counterparts in its characteristics. Nevertheless, this is our best 533 mm torpedo and we need to increase its production and purchases.

There have been no messages in the open media for the UGST "Fizik" / "Fizik-2" over the past few years. Considering that it has recently been widely accepted in the media to talk about the arrival of new weapons, it follows that the UGST has not yet entered a wide series, and it is difficult to say when it will.

5. Modernization of carrier-based aircraft.

Here I disagree with Roman Skomorokhov in assessing the prospects for the MiG-29K.

This aircraft, of course, is not the most modern, but due to modernization (it is possible to install a more powerful radar with AFAR or at least PFAR, a REP complex similar to the Khibiny), as an air fighter, it is quite possible to pull it up to the F / A level. 18E / F Super Hornet.

Here you can take an example from the French, who use the Rafale as a carrier-based fighter, which, although it does not have a Stealth airframe, is otherwise a very modern and dangerous machine.

It is important to understand that we cannot get a new carrier-based fighter in a short time, therefore, to the maximum, we should use the platform that is available - the MiG-29K. Due to the aging and lack of modernization of the Su-33, it would be possible to consider replacing them with the MiG-29K.

6. It is necessary to restore the network of military airfields to cover the South Kuriles.

It would be possible to build a new runway at the Korsakov airfield in southern Sakhalin. The restoration of the Burevestnik airfield on Iturup should also be considered.


Minesweeper - project 12660

7. Modernization of mine action forces.

According to media reports, the Navy has only two Project 12660 naval minesweepers (MTShch) capable of dealing with Captor torpedo mines. Most likely, the base minesweepers of Project 12700 "Alexandrite" are capable of fighting them. But only 9 of them have been ordered, of which 6 have been built for four (!) Fleets.

8. Deployment in the Far East of the Kalibr and RIAC cruise missiles, which could hold at gunpoint strategic objects (airfields, fuel and lubricants bases, ammunition depots) in Japan.

9. It is necessary to abandon any dubious projects such as patrolmen 22160, 23550 and focus on the construction of worked out projects: frigates 22350, corvettes 20380, MRK 22800, nuclear submarine 885M Yasen-M, minesweepers 12700 Alexandrite.

Conclusion


The thoughtful reader will note that in the final conclusions of this article, little is said about aircraft carriers.

And this is absolutely correct, since the creation of a modern aircraft carrier will take at least a decade, and most likely more. Moreover, it is necessary to consider not just the creation of an aircraft carrier, but the development of carrier-based aircraft as a whole, with all its components, including AWACS aircraft, electronic warfare, PLO helicopters, the creation of catapults for launching carrier-based aircraft.

There are applications for aircraft carriers in the Far East, but there are more pressing tasks, which are indicated above. And now it is necessary to focus on saturating the fleet with waste industrial submarines and submarines, on the creation of modern torpedoes and anti-mine weapons, on the reconstruction of naval aviation, on the revival of the Far Eastern airfields.

If we set a specific task for the fleet (in this article - the confrontation with Japan in the Far East), then we can easily assess many ship projects that are being built for the fleet now.

Do you need Project 22160 patrolmen in this case?

No, they are not needed. There are no tasks for them in the Far East.

Do you need Project 23550 patrol icebreakers?

Not needed - there are no tasks for them.

Do you need DVDs?

No, they are not needed, there are no tasks for them here.

But we need projects that have been worked out by industry, which can be built in large quantities to achieve at least quantitative parity with the Japanese fleet.

Of course, parity with the Japanese navy is difficult to achieve.

If only for the reason that Japan is an island state. The fleet is the main component of their armed forces. In addition, Japan has access to the most advanced military technology that cooperation with the collective West provides.

Our capabilities are much more modest here. However, the very readiness to repulse the aggressor, the determination to use all available means to defend their territory: the fleet, aviation, long-range cruise missiles, coastal RKs - all this significantly reduces the likelihood of conflict and gives hope for a peaceful future.
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  1. smaug78
    smaug78 26 September 2021 15: 24
    +5
    Place "Admiral Kuznetsov" - in the Far East.
    RKPSN SF, what will we cover?
    1. URAL72
      URAL72 26 September 2021 16: 18
      +17
      Indeed, the ENTIRE article is controversial. Yes, serious forces are not needed in the Baltic, we passed through the Second World War. But the role of the Northern Fleet as well as the Black Sea Fleet is only growing. The latter must control Mediterranean and not only. The role and importance of the Syrian bases is difficult to overestimate.
      1. bayard
        bayard 26 September 2021 19: 24
        +13
        Quote: URAL72
        Indeed, the ENTIRE article is controversial.

        Yes, controversial, but the fact that the Pacific Fleet urgently needs to be strengthened is indisputable.
        It is impossible to drive Kuznetsov to the Pacific Fleet - he is not at that age, and there is no necessary infrastructure there, neither for basing, nor for repair and maintenance. Another thing is that if something is built from an aircraft carrier (the same UDC, especially if by that time their own VTOL aircraft appear), then they should be sent first of all to the Pacific Fleet. And the entire series of frigates 22350.1 currently under construction (with 32 cruise missiles in the UKSK) are also there.
        An example with a fairly prompt modernization of Marshal Shaposhnikov gives hope that at least most of our BODs can get such modernization and strengthen the Pacific Fleet and Northern Fleet.
        ... But the fact is that in today's realities, with the available forces and means of shipbuilding, we cannot keep up with the needs of the fleets in rearmament. The reason for this is the lag behind the original plans for rearmament of the Navy by almost 10 years!
        And here, for the prompt solution of our problems, a "knight's move" is possible - ordering a series of frigates type. 054A in China with hulls, for our combat filling at the shipyard in Vladivostok. In 2015, there were vigorous consultations and negotiations on this topic, but then the deal fell through ... China joined the sanctions of the West ... there, in general, what was going on was a sabbath. But Chinese sources then wrote about China's readiness to supply in a short time up to 20 (!) Frigates type. 54A and 4 pcs. UDC type. 071. The desire of our fleet was to purchase 8 frigates with hulls and two UDC type. 071.
        So maybe today is the time to get back to that idea? China will be able to build quickly, retrofitting and armament will take place at the shipyard in Vladivostok, where they already have experience with the modernization of Shaposhnikov. Perhaps there were discrepancies about the fact that our customers wanted to radically alter the project for new air defense systems and the placement of the UKSK for "Answers" and "Onyx". On this frigate it would be possible to install the GAK from the corvette 20380, place the UKSK on the waist (in front of the helicopter hangar, there you can place up to two UKSK under 16 KR), and the air defense system either leave the original "Calm", or leave the radar the same, and the missiles and launchers to them from the "Redoubt" (as on corvettes, but with a large BC).
        And to use these frigates mainly for PLO! With 4 based in Primorye, and 4 in Kamchatka. Their seaworthiness is more in line with the brilliance of the sea in those parts ... and the 20380 corvettes for work there ... are rather weak. And the autonomy is not enough for them.
        So by urgently ordering 8 such ASW frigates and 2 UDCs (for a quick response to reinforcement, to threats on the islands of the Kuril ridge), we will largely close the gaping holes in the protection and support of ASW in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk region. And for the distant and oceanic zones, by that time both the "Gorshkovs +" and the modernized 1155 will arrive.
        And if corvettes 20380 and 20385 will provide an exit to the sea for submarines and submarines of the fleet bases, then submarine frigates provide for submarines in the central part of the Sea of ​​Okhotsk and in the strait zones of the Kuril ridge.
        Such a "knight's move" will allow, in a fairly short time, to sharply strengthen and strengthen the Pacific Fleet, and at once in all directions - BMZ, PLO bases and waters, DM and OZ (22350.1 and 1155M), with the possibility of transferring sufficiently large amphibious assault forces in the region (UDC 071 , under construction in Kerch UDC and now available at the Pacific Fleet BDK).
        And I think the general political situation on the planet today will not allow China to deny us assistance so easily. We need each other today.
      2. Dmitry from Voronezh
        26 September 2021 22: 50
        +6
        Hello! Controlling the Mediterranean would be nice ... if only there was something. How many warships are there in the Mediterranean squadron? You can count them on your fingers ... Basically - BDK, several RTOs. And against them - NATO fleets. Yes, even one Turkish fleet can easily neutralize the Mediterranean squadron. So, of course, if we had a strong Black Sea Fleet, there would be a lot of tasks for him. And so, there are tasks, there is a base in Tartus, but there is nothing to carry out these tasks.
        1. URAL72
          URAL72 27 September 2021 07: 09
          -1
          Minus is not mine, but in my opinion you are a contradiction to yourself. We do not have enough forces in the Black Sea Fleet, but this also applies to the Pacific Fleet and the Northern Fleet. Why should we throw ALL forces at the Pacific Fleet? Is there no more threat in the west? Today we are active in Africa, for this we need a strong Black Sea Fleet. We have supporters in Latin America, but without a fleet in this region, we cannot count on their loyalty. It means that both the Black Sea Fleet and the Northern Fleet must be strengthened. Having ships and submarines with Zircons around Europe, we will force them to build a perimeter defense. This will significantly reduce their impact potential. Threat from the Caribbean Sea, able to cool the ardor of the United States.
    2. 210ox
      210ox 26 September 2021 16: 51
      +8
      Is he really covering the RKPSN? In the Northern Fleet? I do not mean that he is more needed at the Pacific Fleet
      1. bayard
        bayard 26 September 2021 19: 38
        +4
        Quote: 210ox
        Is he really covering the RKPSN?

        This was seen as its main purpose - to ensure combat stability and air defense in the areas of deployment of the submarine forces of the fleet, to prevent enemy aircraft from entering this area.
        It is impossible to do this by the forces of the basic aviation, because the time of its reaction (the time of arrival in the area) is such that at best it will be possible only to take revenge. But not to save, cover, protect.
        1. 210ox
          210ox 26 September 2021 20: 16
          0
          The mention of "Kuznetsov" in the past tense is the essence. The ship is thirty-five years old.
          1. Alien From
            Alien From 26 September 2021 20: 36
            0
            The point, of course, is this too. Let us recall the loss of two aircraft from Kuznetsov in Syria out of the blue. We are gradually losing our competence in all areas of this complex business. PS My personal opinion is that the country needs two modern AUGs, albeit in the distant future.
            1. bayard
              bayard 26 September 2021 21: 10
              +5
              Quote: Alien From
              My personal opinion is that the country needs two modern AUGs, albeit in the distant future.

              The country needs 6 (six) AUG on AV medium VI on gas turbines, with catapults and aircraft / helicopters AWACS. Three at each theater of operations (Pacific Fleet, Northern Fleet). And this is precisely the necessity for the stability of the Navy.
              There are funds - one super-profit from gas that has risen in price this year will give almost the entire required amount, and coal has also risen in price by 3 times, and they are asking for it from us more and more.
              Capacities too - "Zaliv" in Kerch and "Bolshoy Kamen" in the Far East. Despite the fact that it is necessary to build at two shipyards at once.
              The need is there.
              Moreover, there is exactly a NEED for this, because we are building a huge fleet of gas carriers and tankers of the "super" class, as well as huge cargo transportation of coal from the Arctic zone (coking, expensive, which is very much wanted in China and India - at least 80 million tons per year). And we carry all this stuff from the Arctic to Southeast Asia, the Indian Ocean, Europe and South America. And the supply of Russian grain is also growing - all over the world.
              The Navy will have to ensure the safety of this shipping. And this is not just necessary for the state (the oligarchs wanted to spit on it), it is urgently needed by BUSINESS itself. And that means the Fleet - TO BE.
              But there will also be sabotage from the agents of our enemies and competitors, sabotage, sanctions and other delights. But when SUCH money is at stake, business becomes "very lively" - as Comrade Marx put it mildly.
              1. Alien From
                Alien From 26 September 2021 21: 14
                +4
                I agree) but as in the well-known movie: "I don't dream about the seas, the TV has replaced nature for me." Such is self-irony wassat
              2. Dmitry from Voronezh
                26 September 2021 23: 29
                +4
                I am neither a fierce supporter nor an opponent of the construction of aircraft-carrying ships. The need for them is determined by the tasks facing the fleet. And depending on the tasks that the top military-political leadership of the country sets for the fleet, aircraft carriers can be both extremely necessary and useless. We are now unable to build a powerful aircraft carrier fleet, and not only for financial reasons. The main problem is the unavailability of the industry. From the discussion that was conducted at VO about aircraft carriers, it is clear that at the moment there is not a single enterprise ready to undertake the construction of an aircraft carrier, even in the dimensions of "Kuznetsov". That is, the modernization of enterprises is necessary. Further - there are no catapults - they still need to be developed. There are no airplanes or AWACS helicopters - they still need to be created. Here, an example should be taken from the Chinese, who are systematically developing their aircraft carrier fleet. And they started small - with the reproduction of "Kuznetsov". This is where our industry could start - something like Queen Elizabeth. At the same time, the fleet should be built in an integrated manner: frigates, corvettes PLO, nuclear submarines and diesel-electric submarines, mine sweeping forces and naval aviation. Therefore, it would be unreasonable to rush en masse to build aircraft carriers without solving the most pressing problems of the fleet.
                1. ProkletyiPirat
                  ProkletyiPirat 27 September 2021 00: 15
                  0
                  The problem is not in aircraft carriers and industry, the problem is in the General Staff of the Navy!

                  YES AB are needed, YES we can build AB, yes, with many permissible simplifications that do not lead to a disruption of the main tasks, and YES in a large number, but For all this, the General Staff of the Navy should really sit down and engage in analytics on this topic, namely real analytics, and not just another copy-paste of foreign manuals, technical specifications, doctrines and similar waste paper with the postscripts "faster, better, cheaper."
                  1. Dmitry from Voronezh
                    27 September 2021 00: 53
                    +4
                    Our General Staff of the Navy is probably engaged in some kind of analytics. But this analytics is very weakly involved in decision making. When making decisions, the industrial lobby, the opinion of "respected people", the vital interests of the leadership of each of the fleets, maybe a little military science, are taken into account. Otherwise, everyone is happy with everything: are the ships being built? Are under construction! Albeit with delays and infinite shifts to the right. The budget is being mastered, the industry is loaded with orders. Few people care about the real combat capability of those ships that the industry surrenders. Few people care that the combat capability of each of our 4 fleets in the event of a real war is close to zero ... The top military leadership lives with the hope that "maybe there will be no war" ...
                    1. Alex777
                      Alex777 27 September 2021 08: 05
                      +5
                      Quote: Dmitry from Voronezh
                      The top military leadership lives with the hope that "maybe there will be no war" ...

                      Mark Miley, Chairman of the United States Army Joint Chiefs of Staff, lives with the same hope. And he does not hide it. hi
                  2. Letun
                    Letun 27 September 2021 11: 21
                    +1
                    Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                    YES, we can build AB, yes, with many permissible simplifications that do not lead to a disruption of the main tasks, and YES in a large number

                    How many aircraft carriers can we build? What are you talking about? How much did Armat and Su-57 riveted? Needless to say, the aircraft carrier is a little more complicated? Where are the factories? Where are the engineers and workers? Young people go to bloggers, managers, merchandisers ... Anywhere, but not to factories.
                    1. ProkletyiPirat
                      ProkletyiPirat 27 September 2021 14: 16
                      0
                      1) it is not the armats and the su-57 that are killed, but people, shells and air-to-air missiles are killing, and in this regard, funding is proceeding normally, not ideal, but normal.

                      2) keep in mind a simple thing, the era of classic wars is over, today because of "controlled weapons" (UO) there is no "rear", and therefore it is not "old tank VS new tank" that competes for funding, but "old tank VS new tank VS winged rocket (KR) "and in this regard, KR with the same denominator of the result is cheaper. That is, today, in all countries, the country's security is built on a "security concept." For example, the Turks will block the strait, a war will begin, and for many years we will destroy them bridges, factories, water pipelines, power plants, warehouses, and if anyone intervenes, they will receive similar greetings, but from this place aggressive diplomacy begins with the phrases "1: I know that you know! 2: And I know that you know that I know! "

                      3) Well, returning to AB, I wrote the key "yes, with many permissible simplifications that do not lead to disruption of the main tasks" because much of the "what" and "how" is implemented in the US AUG can be made simpler, cheaper and more massively.
                      1. Letun
                        Letun 27 September 2021 14: 41
                        -2
                        Yeah ... This is a level 80 demagogue. A wall of text that has nothing to do with the question asked. So you have to be able to. Taking off my hat hi
                      2. ProkletyiPirat
                        ProkletyiPirat 27 September 2021 16: 27
                        0
                        You have SIX of them (questions), and at the end there is a line of crying in the style of "everything is gone", what question did I not answer?
                      3. Letun
                        Letun 27 September 2021 16: 39
                        0
                        Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                        what question did I not answer?

                        How are you going to build MANY aircraft carriers without having either production facilities or specialists for this?
                        About many permissible simplifications, a la, we will launch quadrocopters from inflatable boats - in the forest. An aircraft carrier is a cyclopean technical structure, and what you are going to simplify is permissible, it is absolutely not clear.
                        And you can do it without such answers:
                        Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                        1) it is not the armats and su-57 that kill, but people, shells and air-to-air missiles are killed

                        what simple / hand wassat
                      4. ProkletyiPirat
                        ProkletyiPirat 27 September 2021 19: 56
                        -1
                        Quote: Letun
                        How much did Armat and Su-57 riveted?
                        Quote: Letun
                        Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                        1) it is not the armats and su-57 that kill, but people, shells and air-to-air missiles are killed

                        what simple / hand wassat

                        Well, of course, a rukalitso, like all other slogans in the style of "here the US / NATO has an F-35, but we do not have armata, AB, su-57, and therefore we will lose, we urgently need to run and build our response to Chamberlain" because for the layman it is not obvious that even a maize operator can shoot down an F-35 if it has a radar and RVV. So yes, it's easy.

                        Quote: Letun
                        How are you going to build

                        "Where, how, for what shishi", All these topics were raised more than once on VO, and even more times in other places, take at least the articles on the topic of aircraft carrier nonsense that came out that way in March-April-May of this year mulberries on VO, and read local comments, it is certainly long and gemorno, but you write out for yourself the main points, theses, predicates, benchmarks, so as not to be subjected to further propaganda from all over the world (as an example of the screen below from Notepad ++).

                        What's left of the whining? expensive AB cost? Well, okay, you can start with why the nuclear power plant is not needed, what catapults and what to install, etc. but I don’t want to repeat offtops, verbiage, holivars, and even more so I don’t see the point for just doing the work of the Defense Ministry, the General Staff of the Navy and the naval military-industrial complex. I'll just paste in a copy-and-paste of my notes about one Aircraft Carrier node and its uselessness for it.

                        ps I see no point in continuing this branch further.
                        pps It's a pity the site has cut the quality of the picture, but it's still readable, so I'll leave it. For whom the click does not work, see the link https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2021-09/1632761356_000.png and zoom in there.
                      5. Letun
                        Letun 27 September 2021 22: 17
                        -1
                        Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                        Well, of course, a rukalitso, like all other slogans in the style of "here the US / NATO has an F-35, but we do not have armata, AB, su-57, and therefore we will lose, we urgently need to run and build our response to Chamberlain" because for the layman it is not obvious that even a maize operator can shoot down an F-35 if it has a radar and RVV. So yes, it's easy.

                        Of course / rukalitso, especially if you consider that I asked about aircraft carriers, and Ostap suffered about the Su-57, Armata and maize fighters shooting down the F-35. Well, the demagogue of the 80th level is request
                        Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                        "Where, how, for what shishi", All these topics were raised more than once in VO, and even more times in other places,

                        Yes. They have risen more than once, but the fact that Russia can build a LOT of aircraft carriers, with some sort of mythical assumptions and simplifications, sorry, I saw such nonsense for the first time lol
                        Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                        I see no point in continuing this thread further.

                        And rightly so, it is better to upgrade the demagogy skill to level 90. There are no limits to perfection laughing
                2. bayard
                  bayard 27 September 2021 00: 36
                  +5
                  Quote: Dmitry from Voronezh
                  We are now unable to build a powerful aircraft carrier fleet, and not only for financial reasons. The main problem is the unavailability of the industry.

                  She will always be unprepared if this is not done.
                  We have two shipyards potentially capable of building such ships, but they need to accumulate competencies and gain experience in building large ships. Incl. aircraft carriers. Today, two UDCs are being built in the Zaliv, which are already "light" aircraft carriers in terms of their size and essence. If VTOL aircraft appear before the end of this decade, then they will become so. And to create (recreate) AWACS helicopters will not be a special problem (other AWACS facilities cannot be based there).
                  Quote: Dmitry from Voronezh
                  Further - there are no catapults - they still need to be developed.

                  We have developed, tested and manufactured with delivery to the shipyard in Nikolaev such / such a catapult. They wanted to put it on Kuznetsov, but later changed their minds.
                  It was a steam catapult.
                  Moreover, we have developed and tested (as a backup, for a competition, if the steam does not work) an electro-magnetic catapult.
                  Yes, even then.
                  So those. the documentation has been preserved and while the first pair of such ships is being built (and first they must be laid), the catapult will be prepared.
                  It is somewhat more difficult with the AWACS aircraft. We developed a Yak-44 project, but only a mock-up was made. He had to have coaxial propeller-fan engines, which were later installed on the An-70 ...
                  So there is design documentation for the aircraft, but there are no engines and there is no actual radar and the entire complex of equipment.
                  What to do ?
                  To return to Russia its lawful lands and people, now occupied by the enemy on the so-called. Ukraine. Nafig finish this project and restore the territorial integrity of Russia - for the so-called. Ukraine has no legally designated borders and no territory itself. The UN does not AT ALL know where this "state" is.
                  And the problem with the engines will be solved.
                  And not only for the Yak-44.
                  In general - all the problems with aircraft engines.
                  And with propulsion systems for ships - ALSO.
                  In the entire spectrum of capacities, gear drives and everything involved.
                  But the actual BRLK ...
                  Here you need to understand that such an aircraft is needed not only for deck-based operations - we IN GENERAL (!) Need such aircraft, and in a sufficiently large number. So the Yak-44 can become an AWACS aircraft not only for the Navy, but also for the Aerospace Forces. And we need about a hundred such planes. So serial production is guaranteed.
                  But this needs to be done.
                  Quote: Dmitry from Voronezh
                  ... Here, an example should be taken from the Chinese, who are systematically developing their aircraft carrier fleet. And they started small - with the reproduction of "Kuznetsov".

                  So I say that we do not need atomic monsters. We need a series of six AVVI 45 - 000 tons - just something in the dimension of "Kuznetsov". But on gas-steam turbopairs, with catapults and AWACS aircraft. Having on board 50 fighters, 000 aircraft / helicopters (as a backup option) AWACS, 24 PLO helicopters and 4 - 8 search and rescue helicopters. With the tasks of ensuring the combat stability of the KUG of the Russian Navy, solving issues of air defense, anti-aircraft defense, reconnaissance and target designation.
                  The cost of one such AB will be about $ 2,5 billion (I don’t stutter in rubles, the ruble is unstable and in a couple of months the numbers will no longer beat). For comparison, the cost of AV "Varan" VI 40 - 000 tons is named - about 45 - 000 billion dollars. I added another 1,5 - 2 billion dollars to my version. - for fidelity.
                  But this is without the air wing, the base infrastructure, the cost of training and training the crew and other personnel.
                  The cost of the entire program (6 AB + air wings for them + basic infrastructure on two fleets + escort of four frigate destroyers, project 22350M each, for an ocean-going supply tanker, tug and integrated supply ship) will be (if not steal) about $ 60 billion. ...
                  The term for the implementation of the program, if built simultaneously at two shipyards in a dense stream, will be 15 - 17 years (for the entire series, with an escort), the period for achieving full combat readiness of the entire grouping is 20 years (when all 6 AUGs will be combat-ready and deployed in their theater of operations). So this program will require spending an average of $ 3,5-4 billion. yearly . And in a maximum of 20 years we will be the owners of a grouping of: medium VI aircraft carriers, 24 22350M destroyers (only as part of the AUG) and a developed basic infrastructure in two fleets.

                  As for the corvettes ... we need to finish the whim with the construction of these expensive and not quite corresponding to the tasks and cost of pr. 20380 \ 20385, completing the ordered series and EVERYTHING! Corvettes of the next series should be built on the basis of the "enlarged Karakurt" project in VI 1300 - 1500 tons, with moderate air defense ("Pantsir-M" is quite enough) and sharpened specifically for PLO in the near zone. To build them in Zelenodolsk and in St. Petersburg on the "Pella" ... and on the Far East - at the "Amur Shipyard" or in Primorye. Build other small things there - tugs, minesweepers, boats, etc.
                  All major shipyards must build DM and OZ ships. First of all, 22350M. Moreover, at several shipyards at once:
                  - Admiralteyskikh in St. Petersburg,
                  - at "Yantar" in Kaliningrad,
                  - in the "Zaliv" city of Kerch - there they built etc. 1135,
                  - at the Amur Shipyard - there at one time the destroyers "Sarych" were built.
                  And in no case should the 22350M series be limited to the needs of AUG alone. We need such ships for separate, independent tasks and services.
                  If the Russian Federation decided to build SUCH a huge merchant fleet, invests SO MUCH funds in the development of the Arctic with its resources, builds new commercial ports and terminals, infrastructure for them ... ocean without obstacles and problems, you need to build a powerful Navy.
                  Trade will pay for everything and cover all expenses with interest.
                  In the meantime, there is a buildup, it would be nice to order 8 type frigates in China. 54A hulls, for our hardware and weapon content, and a pair of UDC type 071 - for the Pacific Fleet. It will be quick, inexpensive, and will close the gaping hole in this theater of operations, formed due to the disruption of the fleet rearmament programs.
                  hi
              3. Alex777
                Alex777 27 September 2021 08: 24
                0
                Quote: bayard
                There are funds - one super-profit from gas that has risen in price this year will give almost the entire required amount, and coal has also risen in price by 3 times, and they are asking for it from us more and more.

                First, you are missing out on Gazprom's losses during the time when gas was $ 70 on the spot market before the pandemic. Predicting what will happen with prices in the next 2-3 years is a very difficult task.
                Second, the united West has printed 27 trillion in unsecured money to "support the economy" over the past 2+ years.
                The rise in gas prices, and then coal, is also a consequence of inflation.
                Why do you see part of it and do not pay attention to the rise in price of the same steel, on average, by 30% this year?
                But the export of inflation from the West (a hidden form of robbery) in our "open" economy has affected almost everything. And products too.
                The cost of the ships, in the prices of two years ago, also needs to be recalculated according to the new one, and you will not like the results. hi
                In the meantime, there is a buildup, it would be nice to order 8 type frigates in China. 54A bodies

                And what not to order not the dull 54A cases, but immediately the 22350 cases? If we talk about any orders?
                1. bayard
                  bayard 27 September 2021 15: 48
                  0
                  Quote: Alex777
                  First, you are missing out on Gazprom's losses during the time when gas was $ 70 on the spot market before the pandemic.

                  I remember this, as well as the fact that in the first year of the "pandemic" the Russian government saved 1 trillion rubles in the budget. Therefore, while Gazprom suffered losses (or simply received less profit), the state, on the contrary, enriched itself by saving a whole trillion ... And nothing terrible happened.
                  I mean, even the current budget has money. Moreover, there is always (!) Extra money - those that are withdrawn in the so-called. reserve funds. Have you noticed how these funds swelled during the "pandemic" and "losses of Gazprom"?
                  But just (!) 10% of these funds are enough to finance the entire (!) Program of building a group of 6 aircraft carriers (the appearance I described) with escort ships (4 22350M each + support ships), basic infrastructure in two fleets and crew training , calculations, aircraft pilots and other specialists.
                  Only 10% of the accumulated in the capsule.
                  Or the profits from the grain trade (only tax profits are meant) should be entirely directed to the construction of ships for this program every year - they will be built in just 15 - 17 years. That is, it will be enough only for financing.
                  Now the trade of LNG from the Russian Federation is growing, and this is done not only by Novatek, but also by Rosneft and Gazprom. Do I need to explain that all these volumes of trade are plus / above the trade that is pumped with pipes? That is, this is an additional profit to the budget (resource tax, export tax), even if a moratorium on profit tax has been imposed on some types of such exports ... All this goes to the budget as a fresh stream.
                  Coal
                  All the main profits from the export of Yakut coking coal are still ahead of us - now the infrastructure for this export is being created. And in a fair share, or entirely - by private capital. But tax revenues from these exports will go to the budget as an additional fresh wave.
                  Yes, in a few years.
                  So we will be able to lay down aircraft carriers no earlier than 4 years.
                  Quote: Alex777
                  Predicting what will happen with prices in the next 2-3 years is a very difficult task.

                  Predicting today is generally a thankless task.
                  Who could have calculated that in 2020 the entire planet would be quarantined?
                  Therefore, I am not pushing for the use of funds from surges in energy prices. In the Russian Federation, there is enough current income to finance this program. And the industry will be ready to take on its implementation in 3-4-5 years, when the revived and built from scratch shipyards gain experience in the construction of large ships, the cooperation contractors will catch up, the domestic engine building will reach the required level, projects, estimates and plans will be prepared.
                  And there will be no problems with funds - sea trade is growing.
                  Quote: Alex777
                  Why do you see part of it and do not pay attention to the rise in price of the same steel, on average, by 30% this year?

                  I can see her. As I see it, there are ways to neutralize this growth for defense orders - by the method of tax regulation. The abolition of VAT on metal supplied under the defense order will bring the price down to quite acceptable values. But each particular case requires separate consideration.
                  Quote: Alex777
                  And what not to order not the dull 54A cases, but immediately the 22350 cases? If we talk about any orders?

                  I propose to order these frigates not as DM and OZ frigates, but as PLO frigates - to strengthen the anti-submarine forces of the Pacific Fleet in the waters of the Sea of ​​Okhotsk and Japan.
                  These frigates will be 2 times cheaper than 22350, we will get them 3 times faster, while we will be able to integrate existing serial weapons into them. They can even not change the air defense system - leave the "Calm" in order to alter less and experience the traditional "crap" in these cases. GAK from corvette 20380, "Packet-NK", 16 missiles in two UKSK "Answer" and "Onyx" (for self-defense) and air defense system "Shtil" (which now stands on them as standard) - and here we have a light PLO frigate. These frigates will be able to patrol the waters of the Sea of ​​Okhotsk and the Sea of ​​Japan for a long time, the strait zones of the Kuril archipelago, and lead in the round-up of anti-submarine forces of the fleet by groups of corvettes in the BMZ.
                  And the frigates of project 22350.1, which are currently being built for the Pacific Fleet, will serve in the DM and OZ. Together with the modernized 1155.
                  Quote: Alex777
                  And what not to order not the dull 54A cases, but immediately the 22350 cases? If we talk about any orders?

                  Chinese? belay
                  And where do they get the GEM?
                  Yes, while they figure out the technical documentation, they will decide (with our participation) with the power plant ... the first frigates type. 054A of the ordered series will already be handed over to the customer ... all the more - in hulls (which is easier and faster).
                  And we need to lay in our own shipyards a wide series of 22350M (and not dull in speed 22350), and at several shipyards at once - Admiralteyskie, Yantar, and after a while - Zaliv and Amursky.
                  We are talking about the Chinese 054A - specifically for interception, in order to close the gaping holes in the Pacific Fleet's PLO. Corvettes 20380 for those waters are not seaworthy enough and do not have PLUR, which makes them toothless in confrontation with enemy submarines, despite all their high cost. The purchase of frigates 054A with their retrofitting in Vladivostok will cost us no more than the construction of such a "miracle corvette" (20380, and even more so 20385).
                  It will not be superfluous for the Pacific Fleet and the Chinese UDC type. 071.
                  If such an order does take place, then the Pacific Fleet will only have to wait for domestic ships of the main classes - 22350.1 and 22350M.
                  Moreover, if such an order takes place, it would be possible to somewhat reduce the order for corvettes for the Pacific Fleet and start laying in its boathouses really serious ships of the project 22350M, because in Soviet times, destroyers of the Sarych type were already built there.
                  1. Alex777
                    Alex777 27 September 2021 17: 47
                    0
                    Quote: bayard
                    Therefore, I am not pushing for the use of funds from surges in energy prices.

                    Then we agreed. wink

                    And there will be no problems with funds - sea trade is growing.

                    The States will impose sanctions against 35 leaders, and ours will respond as expected (it is already impossible not to answer) and God knows how events will unfold. It was not just that the States poured out of Afgan by a specific date.
                    Something in their plans is planned. They need nosebleeds to intercept the initiative.
                    The same AUKUS is a vivid example of this. 18 months of preparation by different administrations and not a single leak!
                    Today we were finally kicked out of the Czech nuclear power plant. All the money is brought into the "Anglo-Saxon family".
                    As for the trillion you mentioned. Is it a lot or a little? We gave out 10 each to pensioners and no half a trillion.

                    Quote: bayard
                    They can even not change the air defense system - leave the "Calm" in order to alter less and experience the traditional "crap" in these cases. GAK from corvette 20380, "Packet-NK", 16 missiles in two UKSK "Answer" and "Onyx" (for self-defense) and air defense system "Shtil" (which now stands on them as standard) - and here we have a light PLO frigate.

                    Sounds pretty. But there are ravines:
                    1. There is not and cannot be UKSK at 54A. Their PLUR from the Stihl mines will start.
                    At the same time, EMNIP for 1 modern submarine / nuclear submarine must be launched 4 PLUR for guaranteed destruction.
                    2. Speed ​​54A = speed 22350: 1. 1 knots maximum.
                    3. There is no point in buying the documentation for the sake of 8 ships. It will be too expensive. Otherwise, how to serve them? Not in China?

                    Quote: bayard
                    And we need to lay down a wide series of 22350M at our own shipyards, and at several shipyards at once - Admiralteyskie, Yantar, and after a while - Zaliv and Amursky.

                    I am for it". drinks
                    I recently subtracted a confirmation from the power plant for 22350M. 4 turbines, as you said.
                    This is also why I was against the completion of 11356 for us. hi
                    1. bayard
                      bayard 27 September 2021 18: 34
                      0
                      Quote: Alex777
                      The United States will impose sanctions against 35 leaders, and ours will respond as expected (it is already impossible not to answer) and God knows how events will unfold.

                      Maybe they will introduce, maybe there will be an answer ... Only a big question - they will not pull against the Russian Federation and the PRC at the same time, for them this is obvious, and the fact that it is China that is now pushing them out of the markets has already become the first economy and will soon equalize with the United States its strategic nuclear potential.
                      And what should they do?
                      Wreak havoc in Central Asia?
                      And if everyone against whom they created this chaos, coordinate their actions against them? If yeast is thrown into the American toilet?
                      Or they can.
                      So it seems to me that some consultations are already underway with the "purchase" of the neutrality of the Russian Federation for the period of "containment" of China.
                      How should we behave?
                      The question here is how we will come to an agreement with China.
                      If we benefit from China, we can send walkers.
                      Remember Lavrov's words the other day that Russia will not join NATO?
                      Why did it happen ?
                      But in order for China to be useful, it should increase our purchases of energy carriers and other resources and goods, and supply us with EVERYTHING that we need in exhaustive volumes.
                      And if not ?
                      No, and no trial.
                      Quote: Alex777
                      As for the trillion you mentioned. Is it a lot or a little? We gave out 10 each to pensioners and no half a trillion.

                      Well, you see how little it takes for all this?
                      I will say the opposite - it is enough to keep each pensioner for 1 rubles. a month for a year and - VOIL! lol ... there are already funds for the construction of 6 (SIX) aircraft carriers. yes
                      And if we extend this procedure for one more year, then there are already funds for the construction of ALL escort ships. yes
                      Another year of such efforts, and now - there are already funds for the purchase of aircraft for the aircraft wings of these aircraft carriers and the arrangement of airfields and basic infrastructure for them.
                      Well, the fourth year of such efforts will give us funds for the construction of a naval base for basing these aircraft carriers in two fleets, repair bases in them, barracks, boiler houses (it's cold here), power plants and other necessary infrastructure.
                      And all together this will amount to some 10% of the total gold and foreign exchange reserves of the beloved Fatherland.

                      Here, no matter how you think, it turns out that there will be no problems with funds in principle.
                      But, perhaps, someone will have to steal a little less.
                      But only the most "little".
                      Quote: Alex777
                      1. There is not and cannot be UKSK at 54A.

                      But you must !
                      Therefore, he suggested placing them on the waist - in the gap between the rear wall of the wheelhouse and the front wall of the helicopter hangar, closer to the hangar. This is close to the center of mass, so it will not affect the weight distribution, and the pitching will affect the least way.
                      Of course you will have to re-plan the underdeck spaces in that place, but it will be worth it.
                      It is better not to venture with the air defense system, let it be as it is, the "Calm" is quite a suitable air defense system for the PLO frigate, and what is especially convenient - it is the "Calm" that is going to be installed on all the air defense systems planned for modernization, pr. 1155. And it is most convenient to arm and retrofit the hulls of frigates 054A at the Vladivostok shipyard. That is, the procedure will be worked out and quite regular, and this already means that the work will be carried out quite quickly.
                      Quote: Alex777
                      Their PLUR from the Stihl mines will start.

                      We are not interested in their PLUR, ours will start from the UKSK on the waist, and this will be the PLUR "Answer".
                      Quote: Alex777
                      2. Speed ​​54A = speed 22350: 1. 1 knots maximum.

                      Well, you see, we didn't even lose in this. But at the same time, the 054A power plant is entirely diesel, which means they will also be quite economical.
                      Quote: Alex777
                      3. There is no point in buying documentation for the sake of 8 ships. It will be too expensive.

                      Too expensive ?
                      Yes, they have to give us all the technical documentation in addition to this series. Despite the fact that most of the weapons and systems of this ship have Soviet and Russian roots. To this day, they buy many systems for their ships from us and from Ukraine.
                      They will normally be serviced and repaired. Do not forget that the completion and combat equipment of these ships will be carried out in Vladivostok. In the same place, at the same plant, they will be repaired.
                      And it won't take long to deliver spare parts from China - it went around Korea and here it is - China.
                      Quote: Alex777
                      I recently subtracted a confirmation from the power plant for 22350M. 4 turbines, as you said.

                      About 4 years ago, at least, they talked about it as a decided fact.
                      And this decision is a good one.
                      hi
                      1. Alex777
                        Alex777 27 September 2021 19: 00
                        0
                        Quote: bayard
                        Only a big question - they will not pull against the Russian Federation and China at the same time

                        Until they try, they will not know.

                        Quote: bayard
                        And if everyone against whom they created this chaos, coordinate their actions against them?

                        They are switching over to India.
                        The rest doesn't bother them much.

                        Quote: bayard
                        But in order for China to be useful, it should increase our purchases of energy carriers and other resources and goods, and supply us with EVERYTHING that we need in exhaustive volumes.

                        Until they scattered too much to help us.

                        Quote: bayard
                        I will say the opposite - it is enough to keep each pensioner for 1 rubles. per month throughout the year

                        I can’t accept this!


                        Quote: bayard
                        But you must !

                        Unrealistic. Alas. All tsimus from the "waste project" is "down the drain". And the WPU Calm there is not ours, but Chinese. Other.
                        I did not see "Nuts" there, and others, etc.

                        Quote: bayard
                        it is "Calm" that they are going to put on all the planned for modernization BOD pr. 1155.

                        I strongly doubt it. It doesn't make any sense.
                        Not in size, neither in BC, nor in channel.
                      2. bayard
                        bayard 27 September 2021 22: 11
                        0
                        Quote: Alex777
                        They are switching over to India.
                        The rest doesn't bother them much.

                        Yes, India, in the light of recent events, is already thinking about the Americans. They already note the penetration of the Taliban into Kashmir and are very much afraid not only of terrorists from there, but also of the fact that Afghanistan, being under the protectorate of Pakistan, will form a united front with it against India proper. More and more often one can hear speeches there that it is time to turn to Russia, because to have China, Pakistan and Afghanistan against oneself ... this is somehow too much, including the length of a possible front.
                        Quote: Alex777
                        Quote: bayard
                        But in order for China to be useful, it should increase our purchases of energy carriers and other resources and goods, and supply us with EVERYTHING that we need in exhaustive volumes.

                        Until they scattered too much to help us.

                        They are not too much, and we are not in a hurry. But I don't see any particular reason for China to refuse us. Their production facilities (slipways) for these frigates are now idle, they are building a small party for Pakistan, but this is not for long.
                        Moreover, in the light of the military bloc created by the Anglo-Saxons against the PRC, to which, if anything, Japan will join, they are not very happy. And to have some support and the Pacific Fleet as a means of diverting some of the forces and attention, in the northern neighborhood, is quite conducive to still going to a meeting, to their own advantage. Another thing is that our naval commanders and "government men" can begin to take a pose - they say they themselves can, we won - the turbines turned out. Here are just lost time without a knight's move, you can't make up. We must walk.
                        And as soon as possible.
                        In other ways, we cannot restore the combat effectiveness and stability of the Pacific Fleet in a theater of operations.
                        There is too little of everything.
                        Quote: Alex777

                        I can’t accept this!


                        Quote: bayard
                        But you must !

                        Yes, that's me, for clarity that there is enough money for these projects in the country.
                        The expected additional profit from new projects and new trade turnover is more than enough. Moreover, it will be all in foreign currency.
                        Quote: Alex777
                        The WPU Calm there is not ours, but Chinese. Other.

                        So we will take the buildings, put all our VPUs.
                        Quote: Alex777
                        I did not see "Nuts" there, and others, etc.

                        We have enough "nuts" of our own, we will put them if necessary.
                        There, after all, not only all the weapons systems will be ours, but also all the others, except for general navigation, energy and general ship systems. The body, it is - the body.
                        Quote: Alex777
                        Quote: bayard
                        it is "Calm" that they are going to put on all the planned for modernization BOD pr. 1155.

                        I strongly doubt it. It doesn't make any sense.
                        Not in size, neither in BC, nor in channel.

                        You shouldn’t doubt it, not so long ago on VO we posted (like in the comments) a photo of the stand from the same plant, with the modernization scheme of the BOD following the "Shaposhnikov" (forgot his name). So everything is much more serious there:
                        - two more UKSK on the tank were added two more UKSK in front of the helicopter hangar,
                        - there was still "Packet-NK",
                        - "Calm" appeared to strengthen the air defense,
                        - a pair of quad X-35 launchers appeared in place of the previous torpedo tubes.
                        In general, the appearance of such a ship is quite serious - 32 CR in the UKSK, this is no longer a joke, and the X-35 is no longer 8, but quite 16 pieces. Not to mention Calm, which already provides more or less acceptable medium-range air defense capabilities.
                        And "Packet-NK", which is no longer only torpedoes at a distance of up to 20 km. but also anti-torpedo protection.
                        At the same time, bombs are preserved, one 100 mm gun. and two helicopters.
                        And excellent driving performance.
                        And there is a sense in this. Having carried out such modernization, this will not only extend the service life of these ships for at least 15 years, but also seriously strengthen the Pacific Fleet and the Northern Fleet (where the modernization of the remaining BODs has also begun, and it is for this project).
                        "Shaposhnikov" was the first sign, they worked out the repair and restoration of the power plant (now we are talking about the possible installation of turbines from the future 22350M - M70FRU and M90FR), this was the most important and most risky. And since there was no complete confidence in success, the modernization program on it was somewhat reduced. But everything worked out. And now all the remaining 1155 have to go through this procedure - in Vladivostok and Severodvinsk.
                        Quote: Alex777
                        Not in size, neither in BC, nor in channel.

                        There is enough space for everything, and "Nuts" are provided in the diagram.
                        hi
                      3. Alex777
                        Alex777 28 September 2021 11: 49
                        0
                        Quote: bayard
                        In general, the appearance of such a ship is quite serious - 32 CR in the UKSK, this is no longer a joke, and the X-35 is no longer 8, but quite 16 pieces. Not to mention Calm, which already provides more or less acceptable medium-range air defense capabilities.
                        And "Packet-NK", which is no longer only torpedoes at a distance of up to 20 km. but also anti-torpedo protection.

                        Until I see at least a picture where "Admiral Vinogradov" looks like this, I will not believe in such luxury.
                        There are many reasons:
                        1. It is banal that the ship's energy is not designed for this.
                        2. It is not realistic to completely change the REO on an old ship.
                        3. The price will go off scale, and the service life will be short.
                        4. Project 1155 already has "innate" shortcomings (feed goes under the water at full speed), and you are talking about 2 additional UKSK in front of the hangar ??? I exclude 100%. hi
                        Calm, too, exclude. He is not needed at all.


                        I have already "been ill" with modernization. Empty it.
                        Instead of full-fledged work, the ship will be idle for repairs. In expensive repairs. Therefore, the cruisers in the States are written off. Although there is no equivalent replacement for them as an air defense / missile defense control ship AUG.
                        We need to build new ones. And the ships will serve as they should and the crew will not be placed as in the USSR. hi
                      4. bayard
                        bayard 28 September 2021 16: 37
                        0
                        Quote: Alex777
                        Until I see at least a picture where "Admiral Vinogradov" looks like this, I will not believe in such luxury.

                        I saw her - in the photo of the stand at the Vladivostok Shipyard, everything is signed and drawn in detail there. I was surprised myself.
                        Quote: Alex777
                        1. It is banal that the ship's energy is not designed for this.

                        The ship enters for overhaul and modernization, there is almost one hull left (exaggerating), so that the power industry can be tightened up by installing new / additional diesel generators.
                        Quote: Alex777
                        2. It is not realistic to completely change the REO on an old ship.

                        Why is it unrealistic if it was seriously updated at Shaposhnikov?
                        If you are talking about the radar, then the radar from the frigate 11356 will perfectly stand there, which in itself is by no means expensive.
                        Quote: Alex777
                        3. The price will go off scale, and the service life will be short.

                        The price of "Shaposhnikov" did not go off scale, but it was mainly used for the overhaul of the power plant and the installation of the UKSK. Starting with "Vinogradov" they are going to modernize in full, and for this there is everything you need, serial and not very expensive. The same "Calm" complex, which has been worked out for a long time, is not expensive and may well be integrated instead of the "Dagger".
                        And in general about the cost, you need to understand that when repairing this series (and it is high time for all of them to be repaired), they are going, if necessary, to install turbines (and maybe a gearbox) from 22350M. And what kind of short service life in this case can we talk about?
                        In addition, the modernization of both the Pacific Fleet and the Northern Fleet, these ships will be carried out at the Shipyard, because the Shipyard is overloaded with orders for new ships, which they cannot cope with.
                        As for the timeline - look at the timeline for the modernization of Shaposhnikov, when there was no certainty what would happen with the repair of turbines and gearboxes, on which there was a fire and in general everything was for the first time ...
                        3,5 years!
                        So I think that a deeper modernization of all the following ships (at least in Vladivostok) will last no more than 4 years.
                        Quote: Alex777
                        4. Project 1155 already has "innate" shortcomings (feed goes under the water at full speed), and you are talking about 2 additional UKSK in front of the hangar ??? I exclude 100%.

                        Placing the second UKSK on the waist (in front of the hangar), the nose, which has become heavier under the weight of 2 UKSK and UKSK "Calm", will be partially balanced. In addition, if we look closely at your wonderful photo, we will see that this placement will be closer to the center of mass than the 2nd UKSK on the tank.
                        To be honest, this placement also surprised me a little, but at the same time I liked it.
                        Quote: Alex777
                        Calm, too, exclude. He is not needed at all.

                        Well, how unnecessary? After all, his absence was the main drawback of these ships - weak air defense, short arm.
                        By the way, they were going to install it under the Soviet modernization program - during a planned medium repair. And UKSK for "Onyx" and "Granat" - too.
                        So today the dreams of Soviet shipbuilders come true at the end of socialism ... Better late than never.
                        Quote: Alex777
                        Instead of full-fledged work, the ship will be idle for repairs.

                        Yes, it is time for all of them to be repaired, they have already walked almost to death without him. One way or another, they have to go for repairs, but get out of it in the same shape, or in a new one - with the maximum toothy, the price of the issue is ten to one and a half billion.
                        And taking into account that they completely change cables, energy, avionics, BIUS, weapons (almost completely), they will be able to pass for another 15, or even 20 years.
                        And during this time, just the new 22350M will arrive in time.
                        Not earlier .
                        So I'm in favor of modernization.
                        Moreover, it will be without prejudice to combat readiness - during a planned, long overdue repair, and at the facilities of the shipyard. This means not to the detriment of the construction of new ones.
                        hi
                      5. Alex777
                        Alex777 28 September 2021 17: 13
                        0
                        Eh ... I'm for everything good and against everything bad, of course ...
                        Have you read the comments of those who served on these ships?
                        It's not fun there. At the same "Kharlamov" the body rotted completely, as if it was "poked with needles".
                        Calm, even with ARLGSN, is outdated. I brought the photo so that you show where this Calm can be put. request
                        Where you match 2 UKSK, it was planned there (in some pictures) 2x4 Uranus instead of a crane.
                        After Ustinov, we did not even modernize Moscow. Although they were going to build in the S-400.
                        And the repair of Shaposhnikov was personally provided by the commander of the Pacific Fleet.
                        Once a week I went and drove ... hi
                        PS Modern air defense has changed a lot. The C Zeptor is considered to be a promising one. It’s not a matter of range, but the number of targets fired at the same time and the speed of these targets.
                        Calm now nothing. A dagger with a new AP and that will be better.
                2. ZEMCH
                  ZEMCH 28 September 2021 15: 25
                  -1
                  Quote: Alex777
                  And what not to order not the dull 54A cases, but immediately the 22350 cases? If we talk about any orders?

                  Severnoye PKB took part in the design of the 054 and 054A types, therefore it is easier to order 054A, at the used series of capacities
                  1. Alex777
                    Alex777 28 September 2021 15: 29
                    +1
                    Quote: ZEMCH
                    Severnoye PKB took part in the design of the 054 and 054A types, therefore it is easier to order 054A, at the used series of capacities

                    Do you think that for the sake of 8 buildings without UKSK it makes sense?
                    1. ZEMCH
                      ZEMCH 28 September 2021 15: 34
                      -1
                      Quote: Alex777
                      Do you think that for the sake of 8 buildings without UKSK it makes sense?

                      For the frigate, the PLO has, if in the dimension of Calm we make a PLUR, and the GAK and the radar there are so ours
                      1. Alex777
                        Alex777 28 September 2021 15: 43
                        0
                        Quote: ZEMCH
                        if in the Calm dimension we make the PLUR

                        What's the point? Single things without perspective?
                        Calm died IMHO. The speed of targets is limited by "Nuts", and no one will remake them.
                        Easier UKSK there then. Perhaps...
          2. bayard
            bayard 26 September 2021 20: 58
            +1
            Quote: 210ox
            The mention of "Kuznetsov" in the past tense is the essence.

            Until he came out of modernization, for him everything is in the past. But he MUST go out.
            And it is needed from exactly where it is assigned - to the Federation Council.
            But new ones (if they appear) should go primarily to the Pacific Fleet.
    3. ProkletyiPirat
      ProkletyiPirat 27 September 2021 00: 00
      -1
      Quote: smaug78
      RKPSN SF, what will we cover?


      Statement:
      "Aircraft carriers are needed to cover SSBNs", "The Russian Federation needs to be able to ensure (guarantee) the exit of SSBNs into the world's oceans (preventing the actions of enemy forces and means to search for and track SSBNs in the process of their exit)."

      <= The argument is more than delusional,
      For example: here you have created AUK \ KUG, here you have built A2AD ("bastion"), and announced "we do not let the enemy here" \ "we protect our SSBNs", after that an enemy nuclear submarine (SSGN \ PLAT \ MPLATRK) enters your A2AD , and begins to hold your SPs at gunpoint.
      ATTENTION QUESTION: how will you expel the enemy submarine from your bastion without declaring war on the enemy state? (that is, without destroying the enemy submarine).
    4. user
      user 27 September 2021 13: 15
      0
      RKPSN SF, what will we cover?

      Most likely you are right, Admiral Kuznetsov should be left in the Northern Fleet.

      And the answer to the author of the article in words
      The restoration of the Burevestnik airfield on Iturup should also be considered.


      We can say that the time has come to move air defense, missile defense and anti-aircraft defense to Sakhalin and the Kuril ridge. With this in mind, it is necessary to create an airfield network of airfields, if without fanaticism, then this is relatively small money, by creating at least several new and deep modernization of existing airfields with an appropriate structure on Sakhalin, Uturup, Matua, Paramushir. Naturally, with their air defense and missile defense cover. Taking into account the airfields in Elizova near Petropavlovsk Kamchatsky and one of the airfields near Magadan, we will close the entire Okhotsk Sea and the distant approaches to the Kuril ridge. It will be much cheaper and more efficient than using Admiral Kuznetsov. And if you also restore the infrastructure on the Simushir Island in Broughton Bay and place new incoming submarines of the 636 project there, then our defense will look very good even against the background of the Japanese and US fleets ..
  2. Dart2027
    Dart2027 26 September 2021 15: 25
    +7
    Project 23550 ice-class patrol ships are under construction: two for the Navy
    And what's strange that icebreakers are being built for the Navy?
    Do you need DVDs?
    No, they are not needed, there are no tasks for them here.
    Do you need ships capable of transferring additional forces to the islands?
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 26 September 2021 15: 52
      +7
      Quote: Dart2027
      And what's strange that icebreakers are being built for the Navy?

      rather author against toothless icebreakers
      1. Grandfather
        Grandfather 26 September 2021 16: 15
        +6
        Where do we go: on the development of the Russian Navy
        the question is the same about the Air Force, the "national guard" is a priority.
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 26 September 2021 20: 19
          +4
          the question is the same about the Air Force, the "national guard" is a priority.

          Like Kuprin's "The external enemy and the internal enemy." Rosgvardia is against the "internal enemy". And who it is - see Kuprin.
      2. Dart2027
        Dart2027 26 September 2021 16: 37
        -5
        What kind of teeth do they need? There is a cannon, the possibility of placing missiles is provided.
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 26 September 2021 16: 43
          +3
          Quote: Dart2027
          the possibility of placing missiles is provided

          the crew must be trained to use this capability
          1. Dart2027
            Dart2027 26 September 2021 18: 23
            -3
            Quote: Flood
            the crew must be trained

            It should, but this is a solvable issue. the same electronic simulators have not been canceled.
      3. Sergey39
        Sergey39 26 September 2021 18: 38
        0
        I don't think an icebreaker needs to be armed like a frigate! And, on patrol icebreakers, container weapons are provided for the task.
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 26 September 2021 19: 26
          -2
          Quote: Sergey39
          I don't think an icebreaker needs to be armed like a frigate!

          there is no need for armament of the frigate
          especially when you consider what level of armament the same corvettes have reached
          Quote: Sergey39
          on patrol icebreakers, container weapons are provided for the task.

          containers themselves will not shoot
      4. bayard
        bayard 26 September 2021 19: 41
        +7
        Quote: Flood
        rather author against toothless icebreakers

        Rather, the author did not understand that, firstly, these are patrol icebreakers, and secondly, they are for operations in the NSR region. Yes, and the Sea of ​​Okhotsk freezes and ice conditions there up to six months. Should we send corvettes to patrol the ice?
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 26 September 2021 22: 02
          -1
          Quote: bayard
          these are patrol icebreakers

          patrol icebreakers are almost ocean-class patrol vessels, but without weapons (not counting the AU)
          this is the main question - are they needed in this form
          especially with an eye on the NSR
          especially with the Arctic appetites of an overseas friend
          1. bayard
            bayard 26 September 2021 23: 06
            +3
            Quote: Flood
            are they needed in this form

            What's wrong with their appearance?
            Just in case of dagger proximity, there is an artillery mount. To observe the underwater situation, you can use the submersible GAS, BUGAS, underwater drones and manned vehicles ... a helicopter. If the radar is capable of observing surface and air conditions, even better. And if enemy surface forces appear in those parts (in the ice), then Su-34s with X-35 and X-31 anti-ship missiles on board will fly over their souls, or even with something more abrupt.
            Once again, these icebreakers are for patrolling in ice (conditions), where ordinary ships are fraught with danger.
            And they can also be supply ships for island garrisons in the Arctic, transport l / s, engage in oceanography and, possibly, search and find underwater cables.
            In short, this is a multifunctional (but not strike) ice-class ship.
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 27 September 2021 00: 01
              +1
              Quote: bayard
              And they can also be supply ships for island garrisons in the Arctic, transport l / s, engage in oceanography and, possibly, search and find underwater cables.
              In short, this is a multifunctional (but not strike) ice-class ship.

              how easily you gave it a dozen functions
              and in my simplicity I thought that specialized ships are being built for this
              it turned out that everything is much simpler
              1. bayard
                bayard 27 September 2021 01: 29
                0
                Quote: Flood
                and in my simplicity I thought that specialized ships are being built for this

                They also build specialized vessels. but they are not armed. They do not patrol, do not perform the functions listed above. They are just supply transports. Or just oceanographic ships. Here, it is precisely the universal multifunctional ships (!), Which in one exit can perform a number of tasks, except for the delivery of food, fuel and consumables to the islands. They can stop and inspect a foreign ship engaged in suspicious activities in our exclusive economic zone. And these are ships for the Arctic. Where it is dangerous or impossible for ordinary warships to appear. And all "specialized supply vessels" there must also have an ice class. And here everything is in one. And so far only we have combat icebreakers.
                1. Flooding
                  Flooding 27 September 2021 07: 26
                  0
                  Quote: bayard
                  They also build specialized vessels. but they are not armed

                  You did not catch my irony.
                  And they decided to explain things to me at length.
                  Thanks of course. Thirty years ago I would have listened to you with great interest))
                  Of course, an icebreaker can and should perform some tasks like any other patrol / patrol vessel.
                  In particular, the functions of search and rescue, firefighting, transportation of supplies, crews / personnel, mobile honey. item.
                  But like from any other station wagon, do not expect much from him.
                  Anti-submarine, oceanographic and reconnaissance / "cable" and other highly specialized functions are overkill.
                  In any case, thanks for your attention to my person. smile
          2. ProkletyiPirat
            ProkletyiPirat 27 September 2021 00: 24
            +1
            Our icebreakers are not military, but military ships, what is described in Western terminology as
            OPV - Offshore Patrol Vessel
            MRV - Multi Role Vessel
            well, or other similar terms
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 27 September 2021 07: 27
              +1
              Quote: ProkletyiPirat
              Our icebreakers are not military, but military ships, what is described in Western terminology as
              OPV - Offshore Patrol Vessel
              MRV - Multi Role Vessel

              How can you not believe a pirate wink
    2. Dmitry from Voronezh
      26 September 2021 23: 40
      +1
      Do you need ships capable of transferring additional forces to the islands?

      And what are the chances of these ships, given the current quantitative and qualitative composition of the Pacific Fleet, in the event of a war with Japan, to reach the southern Kuriles and complete their mission? And imagine - the Japanese will sink one of them with a bunch of equipment and 1000 troops. After all, this will be a national disaster! Therefore, first you need to achieve approximate parity with a potential enemy at sea through the construction of frigates, corvettes, nuclear submarines, diesel-electric submarines, naval aviation, coastal RK. Later, it would be possible to build these DVDKDs, if the country's leadership likes them so much.
      1. Dart2027
        Dart2027 27 September 2021 19: 53
        0
        Quote: Dmitry from Voronezh
        And what are the chances of these ships, given the current quantitative and qualitative composition of the Pacific Fleet, in the event of a war with Japan, to reach the southern Kuriles and complete their mission?

        And the rest of the army will have what to do?
        Quote: Dmitry from Voronezh
        Therefore, first you need to achieve approximate parity with a potential enemy at sea.

        The answer is never. The Japanese fleet will always be stronger, because they have one, and we have several.
    3. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 27 September 2021 11: 40
      +1
      Quote: Dart2027
      And what's strange that icebreakers are being built for the Navy?

      The strange thing is that the Navy is stepping on the rake of an "armed icebreaker" for the second time. Or has the fleet command forgotten the history of the past 97AP icebreaker patrols ordered in the late 60s?
      Then the Navy also had Napoleonic plans to carry out patrol services at the end sections of the Northern Sea Route. But in fact, a couple of years after the commissioning of the fleet patrol ICEs, all weapons were removed, and they were reclassified into ordinary icebreakers. And the same icebreakers were engaged in patrolling, but of a completely different department.

      Moreover, it seems to me that if you dig the list of tasks of the new naval patrol icebreaker pr. 23550, it turns out that 80% of them are within the competence completely different department (hello project 22160). Which, as in the past approach to the shell, has its own similarly armed icebreakers. smile
  3. svp67
    svp67 26 September 2021 15: 26
    +5
    An interesting opinion, with which I disagree in many respects ... Alas.
    Problem No. 1 of the Russian fleet in all epochs of its history - be it the Russian Empire, the USSR, or the Russian Federation - is a geographical factor.
    The main and first in the list of our fleet has always been LACK OF DUE FINANCING.
    Place "Admiral Kuznetsov" - in the Far East.
    No, he is exactly where he should be now. Where he is obliged to ensure the deployment of our SSBNs. In the Far East, it is possible to organize airfields on multiple islands, taking off from which the aviation will provide cover for the deployment of the Pacific Fleet's SSBNs. Moreover, the Sea of ​​Okhotsk is almost our internal one. But in the North there are no such conditions.
    1. t-12
      t-12 26 September 2021 15: 50
      +4
      The Barents Sea is completely covered from Murmansk, Novaya Zemlya and Franz Josef Land. Ground airfields are built both faster and cheaper than an aircraft carrier.

      SSBNs can also (and probably should) be replaced with cheaper and more reliable PGRKs and mines (including false ones).
      1. svp67
        svp67 26 September 2021 15: 59
        +4
        Quote: t-12
        Barencevo sea

        will still remain open from the "Scandinavian corner" and Svalbard
        Quote: t-12
        SSBNs can also (and probably should) be replaced with cheaper and more reliable PGRKs and mines (including false ones).

        This is already a question of "big politics", I do not think that someone would refuse one of the elements of the nuclear triad
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 27 September 2021 11: 53
        0
        Quote: t-12
        The Barents Sea is completely covered from Murmansk, Novaya Zemlya and Franz Josef Land. Ground airfields are built both faster and cheaper than an aircraft carrier.

        The problem is that already at a distance of 400 km from the airfield, the reserve from it to the duty unit will arrive after the enemy forces have demolished it and carried out the anti-submarine group covered by anti-ship missiles.
    2. Alien From
      Alien From 26 September 2021 16: 15
      0
      Tell me, how can AV help the deployment of SSBNs?
      1. svp67
        svp67 26 September 2021 16: 16
        +1
        Quote: Alien From
        Tell me, how can AV help the deployment of SSBNs?

        Its air group, covering from the air enemy ...
        1. Alien From
          Alien From 26 September 2021 16: 19
          +3
          This is understandable, only it seems that by the time AV leaves repair, its air group will rot, unfortunately ...
          1. svp67
            svp67 26 September 2021 16: 29
            +3
            Quote: Alien From
            This is understandable, only it seems that by the time AV leaves repair, its air group will rot, unfortunately ...

            Fortunately - NO, not only that, and the second is now being completed and sent to the Crimea to train on the "Thread-1"
            1. Alien From
              Alien From 26 September 2021 16: 34
              +1
              There was such infa on VO. Only this is a drop in the ocean ... The author "worked up" for so much money in the article hypothetically, you can stay without pants!
          2. bayard
            bayard 26 September 2021 19: 46
            +1
            Quote: Alien From
            it seems that by the time the AV leaves repair, its air group will rot, unfortunately ...

            All MiG-29K \ KUB are practically new, they still serve and serve.
            Yes, and the Su-33 did not kill its resource very much, it will also last 10 years.
            1. Alien From
              Alien From 26 September 2021 19: 59
              0
              Physically, most likely, but the level of brao will lag behind irrevocably.
              1. bayard
                bayard 26 September 2021 20: 06
                +3
                The MiG-29K can be upgraded to the level of the MiG-35, their airframe is almost identical.
                Yes, and the Su-33 regiment will also have to be rearmed soon, there will already be a standard AFAR and a BEO in the latest fashion.
                The main thing is to get Kuzyu out of modernization alive.
                1. Alien From
                  Alien From 26 September 2021 20: 08
                  0
                  Honestly, it's hard to believe. The feeling is that such octopuses have stuck to him, like 20000 leagues under the sea ...
                  1. bayard
                    bayard 26 September 2021 20: 43
                    0
                    Without a dock, we cannot return it, but with the construction of a dock - a uniform circus.
    3. Grandfather
      Grandfather 26 September 2021 16: 17
      -2
      Quote: svp67
      In the Far East, it is possible to organize airfields on multiple islands,

      what, what... what
      1. svp67
        svp67 26 September 2021 16: 31
        +2
        Quote: Dead Day
        what, what..

        That, that ... In Japanese and Soviet times, the islands were full of airfields, which were abandoned, but now they are being put in order again. Even Matua decided to do it
    4. Stepan S
      Stepan S 26 September 2021 20: 42
      0
      Moreover, the Sea of ​​Okhotsk is almost our internal one.

      There have been no Pacific Fleet bases in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk since time immemorial. In Soviet times, diesel submarines from Kamchatka went there for the winter.
    5. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 27 September 2021 11: 50
      +2
      Quote: svp67
      The main and first in the list of our fleet has always been LACK OF DUE FINANCING.

      As they recently wrote, even with the money allocated by the Navy, it was possible to build a much more sane fleet. So the main and first problem on the list of our fleet was the lack of a clear concept of development and the will to implement it. As a result - a zoo of projects and modifications, plus wagging in style "we do not need OVR and IPC corvettes - we are building patrolmen ... ah-ah, everything is gone, we urgently need corvettes and IPC".
  4. Botanologist
    Botanologist 26 September 2021 15: 35
    +2
    Yes, we have no interests or problems in the Mediterranean. request
  5. Uncle lee
    Uncle lee 26 September 2021 15: 38
    0
    So much is needed! what Can we do it? recourse
    1. bayard
      bayard 26 September 2021 19: 58
      +1
      Quote: Uncle Lee
      So much is needed! Can we do it?

      If you do not engage in foolishness and build the ships that the Navy needs, then it is quite within its power.
      And even within the means - one excess profit of Gazprom this year will provide funds for everything you need. But this year the price of coal has also risen by about 3 times ... and we are being asked more and more for it.
      If you don't spend on palaces and yachts, that's enough for everything.
      1. Uncle lee
        Uncle lee 27 September 2021 01: 20
        +2
        Quote: bayard
        If you don't spend on palaces and yachts, that's enough for everything.

        I'm all for it" !!! good But the Usmanovs, Abramovichs and other Mordashovs are categorically against! And what is the conclusion?
        1. bayard
          bayard 27 September 2021 01: 51
          +2
          Yes, let them be against themselves, the main thing is that taxes are paid. The resource tax has not been canceled, and its size changes with changes in world prices. And for oil, and for gas, and for coal, and for ore and other minerals.
          just recently, we have opened up the possibility of supplying a huge amount of coal - coking coal from Yakutia. The logistics are complicated, but there is a LOT of coal, and the coal is excellent.
          And so China signed contracts for the supply of 35 million tons of this coal annually, and India then sent a request with a REQUEST to consider the issue of supplying 45 million tons (!) Of the same coal annually. And these are just two customers. And there are billions of tons of coal, open pit mining and seams of tens of meters.
          Therefore, they are hastily expanding BAM, building new branches to the Trans-Siberian Railway, preparing a project for the construction of a new railway from the deposit to the coast of the Sea of ​​Okhotsk with the construction of a large coal port ... This is not a joke.
          Against this background, the world price for coal has tripled this year.
          LNG also came from the Arctic. And it is going more and more briskly, because gas carriers are being built for this, new capacities are being commissioned. Moreover, not only Novatek is building gas liquefying plants, but also Rosneft (in the same place - in the Arctic, it has a lot of its own gas, but no pipes, so they are building LNG plants.
          And Gazprom is not satisfied with just one pipe - it builds / built LNG plants in Novorosiysk and Ust-Luga ... And is now negotiating with Brazil (!) On a long-term contract for at least 15 years ... And not only with it.
          And this is all - an increase to the treasury, because it is a plus to the fact that they are already pumping the pipe.
          Moreover, the tax is not only on profits, export, etc., but the most important is the tax on the resource.
          So I say that there is enough money in the treasury - they don’t know what to do. The budget is chronically surplus, so they hide the entire surplus in someone else's money-box - the so-called "reserve funds". But this "Fiscal Rule" from the IMF only deals with oil. But gas and especially coal are deprived of such control. And our grain export is also growing. And its prices are going up too.
          And we pay VAT to all the People, and this is the GENERAL largest revenue item of the budget.
          Of course they won't give it to the people.
          And pensions will most likely be canceled altogether soon. request Capitalism.
          But to protect their shipping, their assets, ports, terminals, tankers, gas carriers, dry cargo ships on ocean communications, they need the Fleet.
          It turned out to be needed.
          But competitors, through agents, will interfere.
          And the articles are custom-made to write.
          And be smart on TV.
          And to arrange new sabotage (as with "Kuznetsov") ...
          But they WILL protect their property at the expense of the state.
          hi
          1. Uncle lee
            Uncle lee 27 September 2021 02: 01
            0
            Quote: bayard
            But your good at public expense they WILL protect.
            You think so. And they will either buy off, or sell their business together with the land, or, as it goes, they will simply be squeezed out of them. Deripaska as an example for you ...
            We live in capitalism and it is a sacred thing to cheat or swallow a competitor! hi
            1. bayard
              bayard 27 September 2021 02: 36
              +2
              The fact is that there is a large share of state participation in the development of these projects - transport infrastructure, networks, communications, energy. In addition, state corporations are involved in these projects. And this is a state business (with the right stakeholders).
              Ports, shipyards (huge, just look at "Zvezda" and "Kola"). So they will build and build.
              And they are afraid to lose.
              It was to protect their assets privatized by overwork that they at one time brought Putin to power and decided to strengthen the state from split / collapse, restore defense capability and, FIRST, the Strategic Nuclear Deterrence Force.
              And they began to reduce social tension in society ... Restore and develop infrastructure.
              Do you think you cared about people?
              No, just the first of the nouveau riche who stole and sold their business and left for the blessed United States and London ... began to be arrested. Like crooks and thieves. And arrest their accounts.
              "And for what then did we sell our Motherland" - the rest cried belay ... And they began to strengthen the statehood. The army and the integrity of the state.
              They needed a roof.
              And today examples from the 90s are very memorable to them.
              And the example of Serbia - the former Yugoslavia became the last straw of their patience.
              After all, the most pro-Western state in Eastern Europe was blown up by bombs without a shadow of doubt and regret, and its leaders were arrested, convicted and hanged ...
              Do you think they want this for themselves?
              Here, after all, look, these Abramovichs will soon run back to Russia - from dispossession and from "Berezovsky's tie / scarf."
              And the roof is now needed not only for themselves, but also for their developing business.
              Without the Navy, they are now nakak.
              It happened so. bully
              hi
              1. Uncle lee
                Uncle lee 27 September 2021 02: 43
                +1
                Brzezinski: “Russia can have as many nuclear suitcases as it wants, but since $ 500 billion of the Russian elite is in our banks, you can figure it out: is it your elite or is it already ours?
                1. bayard
                  bayard 27 September 2021 02: 57
                  +1
                  So this very elite, frightened by the arrests of some "colleagues" who left for permanent residence, brought Putin to power in due time.
                  Do you think today, having matured and matured, gaining experience and learning about life in this "crazy world", they ... will go crazy again?
                  Is Berezovsky's example not enough for them?
                  The same Deripaska was tied up to his ears in the American markets. Because of the sanctions on him in the United States, the automotive industry almost got up ... and the aviation industry got worried ... And he had nowhere to resist - his enterprises were getting up.
                  My brother then worked in Rusal in management ... and left - just then.
                  To Ros-Oil.
                  Just look at what is happening in the world gas market. Do you think this is how "their elite" from Gazprom is having fun?
                  Look how the EU twisted its hands with its lawmaking, and even now it is trying ... but at the same time they themselves are FORCED TO PAY all the bills. And stop production.
                  And if they do not grow wiser, they will freeze in winter.
                  These are complex processes, they cannot be described or expressed with a couple of phrases.
                  It's just that in the 90s, and in the 00s, and in recent years, especially since 2014, they understood the hard way and realized that you can't give up. For Woe to the Victory.
                  otherwise why would they spend on the Army?
                  And now the Fleet was needed.
                  hi
                  1. Uncle lee
                    Uncle lee 27 September 2021 03: 14
                    0
                    Quote: bayard
                    MOUNTAIN FOR THE VICTORY

                    This is the starting point! hi
                    1. Sling cutter
                      Sling cutter 27 September 2021 05: 50
                      0
                      Quote: Uncle Lee
                      This is the starting point!

                      Did you understand your colleague's message correctly?
          2. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter 27 September 2021 05: 42
            0
            Quote: bayard
            But they WILL protect their property at the expense of the state

            Quote: bayard
            And the roof is now needed not only for themselves, but also for their developing business.

            Quote: bayard
            So I say that there is enough money in the treasury - they don’t know what to do. The budget is chronically surplus, so they hide the entire surplus in someone else's money-box - the so-called "reserve funds".

            You write about everything correctly, except for one moment, and it is the most important, they privatized the state and the budget, incl. with all that it implies. Now the state is a kind of gangster syndicate that lives by its own laws. The mechanisms of intimidation and bribery quite work for themselves, the leaders of the countries are bought, the opposition is bought, what they cannot buy for money, they buy for very big money, and the incorruptible can be frightened with a bomb.
            In the 90s, they said "cut in, exit two", and as soon as someone tries to fall out of the system / mafia they are removed until physical elimination (there are a lot of facts)
            Only the rest of the world does not want to accept the OGS into its ranks, does not want to get dirty, knowing the nasty essence, although they themselves are not angels, but this is beyond the scope.
            So, colleague, this is not capitalism at all.
            1. bayard
              bayard 27 September 2021 14: 37
              +2
              Quote: Stroporez
              You write about everything correctly, except for one moment, and it is the most important, they privatized the state and the budget, incl. with all that it implies.

              That's right.
              How true is this for the so-called. "countries of the enlightened west", especially the United States, is not a state at all.
              Ours is more cunning and simpler, because the hapok happened recently and its active participants are still alive.
              We have rather "enlightened feudalism" (in terms of property) with capitalist relations of labor and capital. It's a wild and unsympathetic thing ... but with a clever (until recently) cover in the form of a "welfare state" and a "good tsar".
              But something in this world broke ... and then the welfare state and the good tsar broke down.
              And all the spreading branches of this tree of power today have one concern - to prick all citizens with something "miraculous." They have one but fiery passion.
              This is all that concerns the relationship between the authorities and the "electorate".
              The same as for their own interests remains unchanged, and they remember the lessons of the 90s.
              1. Osipov9391
                Osipov9391 27 September 2021 15: 06
                +1
                About elections and more. Why do people have a very negative opinion about Zyuganov? They say he leaked the protest, recognized the elections and creep in front of Putin. Instead of a rally of his comrades, I went to a meeting with him and announced his support. And I am outraged that Biden is planning sanctions on Abramovich and Deripaska. How to understand, evaluate, interpret this?
                And my friend was also an election observer. Almost everywhere his party went head to head with EdRo, about 30% of the votes they gained the same ...
                In fact, the Communist Party has the support of tens of millions of people, and a lot could be done with such support. But they don't work! The enterprises do not create cells and party organizations.
                Although there is a field for this - people will go and support. Including money. But alas. Nobody does that. They do not seek to recruit people into their ranks.
                And besides, over the years of Zyuganov's power, the number of the party has decreased by about 3-4 times.
                In 1996, they say he gave the victory to Yeltsin ...
                In fact, at all times, commanders who lost a battle or suffered unjustified losses were at least removed from their posts.
                But not about Zyuganov. Although even the members of the party themselves say that it is necessary to do so long ago. Negative assessment of him in everything. And there are decent people both at the top and in the regions.
                And if the number of the party was 10-15 million, no one would shut them up. It would have been a completely different force. But nobody wants to. More precisely, everyone wants it, everyone is in favor. Except for Zyuganov and his entourage.
                1. bayard
                  bayard 27 September 2021 16: 20
                  +1
                  Quote: Osipov9391
                  ... Why do people have a very negative opinion about Zyuganov?

                  What the object is, so is the opinion - very fair.
                  This is just an old clown who will not be released in any way. And his entire Communist Party is the same cardboard circus. He is one of the galaxy of those who leaked the USSR, betrayed their homeland and turned their party into a party of dull marginals.
                  I did everything as ordered.
                  Who?
                  And to whom does he regularly go to the American Embassy to bow?
                  Is it introduced to every new ambassador?
                  Quote: Osipov9391
                  And my friend was also an election observer. Almost everywhere his party went head to head with EdRo, about 30% of the votes they gained the same ...

                  It doesn't matter - less than 40% of voters came to the polls, and the one who counts wins.
                  And in general, these elections are a complete profanation, and at the same time, a kind of magical ritual of transferring responsibility for what is happening. Say, once you have chosen yourself, you have taken part, it means that YOU are responsible, since you choose this.
                  But in the elections, everything is so-called. "parties" are the fingers of one hairy hand.
                  Quote: Osipov9391
                  In 1996, they say he gave the victory to Yeltsin ...

                  Moscow then well remembered the events of the fall of 1993, and no one dared to repeat that experience.
                  And what could Zyuganov have done then - in 1996?
                  When were all the assets already divided?
                  When was the army collapsed?
                  When the economy was in ruins?
                  What could this empty drum have done?
                  Bring people out again to be shot by tanks and riot police?
                  No really - figurines. He just took the payoff ... and backed off.
                  Quote: Osipov9391
                  But they don't work! The enterprises do not create cells and party organizations.

                  But who will give them ?!
                  And he is far from those ideological idealists-communists who laid down their lives and health for the sake of a brighter future. He is a comfort man and habitually trades in his loyalty and cardboard opposition. Do not pay attention to him, and to those who are next to him.
                  1. Osipov9391
                    Osipov9391 27 September 2021 18: 08
                    0
                    In our Tver region, 2 people out of 10 voted for the governor from EdRo.
                    And he won, posters where he thanks for the victory were hung on the night of the counting ...
                    Well, what is his real support? 2 people out of 10! And 2 more people (4 in total) voted for others. Another 6 voters did not come to the elections at all because they consider them a profanation or do not see worthy candidates. And there are no graphs against everyone.
                    That's why they win. And this is even if you do not take any kind of falsification. At our polling stations (there were still local elections), everything was transparent, as I wrote above.
                    I saw these protocols. The turnout is 31-41% on average. Simply because of those who did not come, they won.
                    I cannot judge for other regions.
                    I think that then in the 90s Zyuganov could have done something else. Because they controlled parliament. There were many of their governors, directors of enterprises. And even Prosecutor Skuratov sympathized with them - he dug under Yeltsin for his subsequent impeachment.
                    Perhaps something could have been done. But! Under Zyuganov, the party loses its majority in the Duma, loses regions, does not really win more than one election. And he keeps sitting and sitting, they do not want him and do not think to be re-elected.
                    We need some kind of people's communist party. I need it. There are still others. And people have someone to support. Many. And in labor collectives you can work - at least there are no obstacles in this. The more members the better. At least worthy people can be promoted in local elections. So far, there are only a few such cases, but they do exist. And they do what they can for the people - for example, they resettle the barracks, help those in need with housing, help young people with work.
                    But not the Communist Party. Why they don’t want with such support, I don’t know. But they could! But Zyuganov is happy with everything. There is almost no rotation of personnel in the party and in the regions. Zyuganov's grandson is already in the Moscow City Duma!
                  2. Osipov9391
                    Osipov9391 28 September 2021 01: 44
                    0
                    And if communism in Russia, who will restore it, is definitely not Zyuganov? Vaughn introduced a law to the new Duma on the nullification of the terms of the governors. So that they can rule forever.
                    The next step is the law on life-long immunity of governors, by analogy with the president.
                    It was also forbidden to keep birds and animals in their dachas. Although grandmothers who have a pension of 11 thousand rubles and sell eggs and goat milk and receive at least something to buy medicine.
                    And what is it like for them now?
                    And the law on compulsory vaccination can be introduced.
                    Insanity grows stronger ...
                    1. bayard
                      bayard 28 September 2021 02: 02
                      +1
                      Quote: Osipov9391
                      Insanity grows stronger ...

                      Yes .
                      But they will definitely come up with something else.
                      1. Osipov9391
                        Osipov9391 28 September 2021 02: 14
                        0
                        But there are no protests against this. And even a political condemnation, no one dares to give a political assessment. The same Zyuganov for example :)
                      2. bayard
                        bayard 28 September 2021 02: 20
                        0
                        Zyuganov will not dare to do anything at all.
                        Therefore, it has not been released in circulation to this day - it suits.
                      3. Osipov9391
                        Osipov9391 28 September 2021 02: 25
                        0
                        There seems to be another rift brewing. People dissatisfied with his power are fleeing the party and are trying to create their own parties. But without money, nothing comes of it. The people of their party do not know and do not go there. They know the Communist Party.
                        And the Communist Party of the Russian Federation is approximately 80% financed from the budget ... That is, they receive money from the same window with EdRo.
                        Will they appear about mandates in the Duma? If the elections are not recognized.
                        Some have already refused from EdRr - they got (or next in line) to Biden's list.
                        These are the very ones who have real estate and assets in the West. The West is now telling them through its channels - either the authorities, or your castles on the Cote d'Azur. They choose the latter.
  6. Aleks2048
    Aleks2048 26 September 2021 15: 39
    +3
    Being a delitant in matters of what forces and means are needed in the navy, the very idea:
    However, the very readiness to repulse the aggressor, the determination to use all available means to defend their territory: the fleet, aviation, long-range cruise missiles, coastal RKs - all this significantly reduces the likelihood of conflict and gives hope for a peaceful future.

    I fully support it. Anyone who does not want to build and support the armed forces of the Russian Federation, including the fleet, will very soon be compulsorily supported by strangers.
  7. Strannik_GO
    Strannik_GO 26 September 2021 15: 48
    -6
    "Status 6" nullifies Japan as a maritime power. And to rivet trillion aircraft carriers is to drive the country into the 90s.
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 26 September 2021 16: 19
      0
      Quote: Strannik_GO
      "Status 6" nullifies Japan as a maritime power. And to rivet trillion aircraft carriers is to drive the country into the 90s.

      "status" and the carrier, of course, costs a penny! laughing
      1. Stepan S
        Stepan S 26 September 2021 20: 43
        0
        "status" and the carrier, of course, costs a penny!

        Launches to Japan can be carried out directly from Vladivostok, from a barge.
    2. bayard
      bayard 26 September 2021 20: 01
      +1
      Quote: Strannik_GO
      "Status 6" nullifies Japan as a maritime power.

      Is he there?
      It has never been tested yet.
      It's easier to fork out for a couple of ICBMs. Or a couple of SLBMs - faster and more reliable.
  8. tralflot1832
    tralflot1832 26 September 2021 15: 51
    +8
    Icebreakers of pr.23550 scope of application? The author is aware that the US Navy chartered the Norwegian icebreaker Svalborg to install some kind of equipment north of Alaska. And he went back and forth much north of our territorial waters. So that there were no surprises from such voyages for this and did so. 23550. hiThe project is great.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 27 September 2021 11: 59
      0
      Quote: tralflot1832
      Icebreakers of pr.23550 scope of application? The author is aware that the US Navy chartered the Norwegian icebreaker Svalborg to install some kind of equipment north of Alaska. And he went back and forth much north of our territorial waters. So that there were no surprises from such voyages for this and did so. 23550. hiThe project is great.

      All this is good - but why are they in the Navy? In the presence of absolutely the same pr. 23550 as part of the BOKHR?
      I already wrote that in Soviet times, the Navy once ordered patrol icebreakers. I played with them for a couple of years - and turned them into ordinary ones. And the same icebreakers of the KGB serve to this day.
      1. tralflot1832
        tralflot1832 27 September 2021 12: 16
        0
        And if Svalborg is led by Arlie Burke next time, the border guards will control them? the traces of the crime are hidden.
  9. Basarev
    Basarev 26 September 2021 15: 52
    +3
    All this stuff will not come in handy. I suspect that in the case of a nix Russia will be surrendered without a fight. Perhaps this is the end, already irreversible.
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 26 September 2021 16: 21
      +2
      Quote: Basarev
      All this stuff will not come in handy. I suspect that in the case of a nix Russia will be surrendered without a fight. Perhaps this is the end, already irreversible.

      it's all scary, but looking at the "elite" ... there is such an impression.
    2. Doccor18
      Doccor18 26 September 2021 17: 26
      +4
      Quote: Basarev
      in the case of nix Russia.

      What for? Everything works fine. Oil and gas, timber and metals regularly go where they need to go. Russia is a good $ 150 million. a market for their goods. The oligarch is fed up and on a short leash of foreign accounts. And if someone kicks up, then there are sanctions for this, both group and personal ...
      So there will be no war. You can definitely not worry about this now. But just about that ...
  10. Doctor
    Doctor 26 September 2021 15: 58
    +2
    On the Black Sea, given the possibilities of our budget and our industry, we will inevitably yield to Turkey, and there is nothing to say about the Baltic Sea - there is a large fleet of the FRG, in the Far East - Japan and its huge fleet.

    This is the main problem. There are only enemies around. laughing
  11. Galleon
    Galleon 26 September 2021 16: 02
    +12
    I am ready to subscribe to all the points proposed by the author and even make available funds in a loan to the state for the implementation of such a program, if there is confidence that they will not be stolen.
    In general, the author formulated, but did not express one obvious and good idea: the development of the Pacific Fleet is the development of the entire Far East. This was already the case under Stalin - this region developed along with the development of the fleet. They abandoned the fleet - villages were emptied and plundered, airfields were abandoned, people from the Far East were leaving. And "Kuznetsov" at the Pacific Fleet is very appropriate for solving Kuril problems.
    1. Bogalex
      Bogalex 26 September 2021 16: 33
      +2
      In the light of what is stated here by the author, perhaps the unification of the Eastern Military District and the Pacific Fleet into a single operational-strategic command was not the best decision?
      1. Galleon
        Galleon 26 September 2021 17: 46
        +1
        Quote: Bogalex
        In the light of what is stated here by the author, perhaps the unification of the Eastern Military District and the Pacific Fleet into a single operational-strategic command was not the best decision?

        Yes, I totally agree. This is a step to weaken the naval forces.
  12. Lair
    Lair 26 September 2021 16: 24
    +4
    The Pacific Fleet, of course, requires a radical strengthening, I agree. But how to enhance? 22350 never went into production (a maximum of another 4-5 units will be built by 2030, and these are tears ...). There was no mass anti-submarine corvette in the Russian Navy, and there is still no one. 20380 failed (problems with the engine, air defense, no calibers), and the successful corvette 20385 did not go into production (problem with the power plant). 885, the MAPL project failed and cannot be serially built (a maximum of 4 more units will be built by 2030). Thus, by 2030 we will have 7 pieces. frigates 22350, 3 pcs. frigates 11356, 20 pcs. corvettes (20380), 2-4 pcs. corvettes 20385 and 6 MAPL 885. And this is still a very optimistic scenario. Everything else - Soviet-built boats and ships - is antiques and is already unfit for action (limited in combat capability) right now, and by 2030 it will definitely be written off. In addition, there is no anti-submarine aviation at all - airplanes and helicopters (they are not even designed). That's all.....
    1. Galleon
      Galleon 26 September 2021 17: 50
      +9
      Cleanse the USC and its subcontractors from family ties, get rid of corporate governance that sucks juices out of factories and gives nothing to production, introduce material and criminal liability for terms and quality under the State order, introduce a salary scale at defense enterprises so that managers do not row millions, and engineers and skilled workers were not beggars - in three or five years we will have something to strengthen.
      1. Lair
        Lair 26 September 2021 18: 46
        0
        .
        Quote: Galleon
        Cleanse the USC and its subcontractors from family ties, get rid of corporate governance that sucks juices out of factories and gives nothing to production, introduce material and criminal liability for terms and quality under the State order, introduce a salary scale at defense enterprises so that managers do not row millions, and engineers and skilled workers were not beggars - in three or five years we will have something to strengthen.

        I myself worked at the USC and I subscribe to your words. USC needs to be radically cleaned up ...
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 26 September 2021 20: 24
          0
          USC needs to be radically cleaned up ...

          And how the UAC should be cleaned! Here we need Hercules and Felix Edmundovich.
    2. jonht
      jonht 27 September 2021 00: 52
      0
      For corvettes 20380, the article was here on VO, that it seems like all the newly laid corvettes will be built with UKSK 3S14. And according to Zaslon, it was also that they transferred this miracle to another organization for revision ...
  13. Paul_Zibert
    Paul_Zibert 26 September 2021 16: 38
    -3
    Germany in 30-40 had few funds and capacities for the construction of large cruisers. Therefore, he produced large numbers of submarines.
    And this emu made it possible to sink most of the ships of the allied forces.

    Russia must follow this path.
    Plus small rocket ships.
    This is enough to completely block the action of the enemy in the coastal seas and oceans.
    1. Ashes of Claes
      Ashes of Claes 26 September 2021 17: 35
      +1
      Quote: Paul_Zibert
      Germany in 30-40 had few funds and capacities for the construction of large cruisers. Therefore, he produced large numbers of submarines.
      And this emu made it possible to sink most of the ships of the allied forces.

      Russia must follow this path.

      Well, you have an analogy)
      You can still remember the era of firemen. And ramming armadillos.
      1. Paul_Zibert
        Paul_Zibert 26 September 2021 17: 46
        -2
        I would not refuse to compare the action of Peter the Great and his victory with small ships but in large numbers.
    2. Galleon
      Galleon 26 September 2021 17: 57
      +2
      Quote: Paul_Zibert
      Russia must follow this path.

      Do you remember how it ended? 90% of these boats were killed, mainly by aircraft. Therefore, the question for you is: what kind of air defense do you put on these RTOs, if the air defense complex occupies up to a quarter of the useful volume on ships of medium displacement, and on small ships it should take much more? The correct answer is as it is now in Karakurt, i.e. none.
      So everything in your opinion - Russia is already following this path: there is no intelligible air defense, no air cover, no anti-submarine defense.
    3. Dart2027
      Dart2027 26 September 2021 18: 24
      +1
      Quote: Paul_Zibert
      And this emu made it possible to sink most of the ships of the allied forces.

      And then the allies began to organize the normal protection of the convoys and these submarines were melted.
    4. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 27 September 2021 12: 04
      0
      Quote: Paul_Zibert
      Germany in 30-40 had few funds and capacities for the construction of large cruisers. Therefore, he produced large numbers of submarines.
      And this emu made it possible to sink most of the ships of the allied forces.

      Russia must follow this path.

      Are you suggesting to follow the losing path in advance? The Germans lost the Battle of the Atlantic back in 1943.
      And the USSR, which focused on the submarine fleet, already in the 80s had big problems even at the stage of the submarine entering the Atlantic.
      1. Paul_Zibert
        Paul_Zibert 27 September 2021 12: 22
        +1
        The current submarines have different types of weapons.
        Not like the models of the last century.
        So having a hundred submarines with different types of weapons, you can nullify any enemy naval force.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 28 September 2021 11: 42
          -1
          Quote: Paul_Zibert
          The current submarines have different types of weapons.
          Not like the models of the last century.

          The types of weapons from the 80s of the last century have remained the same. Unless the heavy anti-ship missiles died.
          And some of our submarines are the same models of the last century.
          Quote: Paul_Zibert
          So having a hundred submarines with different types of weapons, you can nullify any enemy naval force.

          How are you going to withdraw this hundred submarines for the range of onboard weapons? Or have they forgotten that, for example, the submarine forces of the formally oceanic SF by the 80s were actually locked up by the Faro-Icelandic border? So all this did not go anywhere - the Yankees even restored the previously disbanded Second Fleet. So again stationary GAS, again GPBA carrier ships, again anti-submarine patrol aircraft, cutting through the areas of possible location of the submarine by the RSAB barriers and waiting for which of them will detect noises (like some spiders smile ), again ship groups PLO USN and allies in the Alliance ...
  14. bk0010
    bk0010 26 September 2021 16: 54
    +4
    To establish the Pacific Fleet it is necessary to ensure its supply-repair-basing, and this is a problem: the Far Eastern forces are not enough for this, and transporting from the European part is far and expensive. Conclusion: to make the Pacific Fleet strong, it is necessary to tighten up the Far East (to create construction offices capable of providing the creation of infrastructure for the fleet and aviation, shipbuilding and ship repair plants, as well as factories producing complete sets for the fleet). These problems date back to tsarist times. All this Russia can pull only if all this will work not only for the military, but also for the civilian fleet, which brings money. Conclusion: in order to strengthen the Pacific Fleet, it is necessary to revive the civilian fleet.
    To ensure the conduct of inter-fleet maneuvers by the forces of not only nuclear submarines, but also surface ships, it is required to build not only icebreakers, but also make new ordinary ships and vessels ice-class ships (the same 22350, for example).
    Also, on the basis of the Su-57, it is necessary to make a bomber, a two-seater with a bomb bay, allowing the use of existing and future anti-ship missiles. Yes, so far only 1 Su-57 has been commissioned, but the development of the aircraft takes time, we must start now. Plus, it is necessary to develop a new standard medium and heavy aircraft platform, on the basis of which new aircraft for civil aviation and the fleet should be implemented (it is clear that the hulls will be different, but the filling and technology will be unified to the maximum). How long can you torture IL-38? To make on their basis a transport, passenger, tanker, PLO, RC, repeater, AWACS, electronic warfare, UAV command and control, even a missile carrier. We need everything now, everything is already over.
  15. Ross xnumx
    Ross xnumx 26 September 2021 16: 54
    +3
    However, the very readiness to repulse the aggressor, the determination to use all available means to defend their territory: fleet, aviation, long-range cruise missiles, coastal RKs - all this significantly reduces the likelihood of conflict and gives hope for a peaceful future.

    That's what confuses me every time. Every time they try to prove to us that the Russian fleet is weak, that we do not have enough surface ships of the far sea zone, silent submarines, naval aircraft, etc.
    As far as I remember, ships from ancient times were built in order to capture (enslave, destroy) lands that cannot be reached on foot. Not a single fleet in the world has participated in modern naval combat. Who makes us embrace the immensity? Who draws us into the frenzy of sea battles in which Russia alone cannot win?
    Five months of the possible use of TAVKR "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov" and ...? Seven months of an icy deck, winds of 5-6 points and the delights of the polar night in ...? There is Korzunovo, there are areas of the Rybachy Peninsula. Designate the tasks that aviation, submarine fleet, missile units and early warning systems will not be able to perform? Who will climb over the northern cliffs into our territory?
    We will not touch the Caspian Flotilla. MRK, minesweepers, UDC there to the place.
    The Red Banner Black Sea Fleet and Baltic Fleet, as already noted, are capable of performing tasks related to the establishment of "rights and freedoms" and the observance of the principles of statehood, no further than the radius of action of Russian aviation. In a global war, the Black Sea Fleet will not be able to conduct hostilities beyond the Black Sea. He will simply be "locked" in the water area (there are ways and those who wish - darkness).
    Remains the Red Banner TF. Let's think together where and against whom Russia can come out of the Far East. And, most importantly, for what?
    So it turns out that Russia should have a fast, maneuverable, multifunctional fleet capable of performing the task in specific locations. Of course, there must be an AUG capable of moving to the region of the world to defend the interests of the state (to release a detained merchant ship, for example).
    And with the defense of the borders (borders), the aviation and the Ground Forces will quite cope with it. For especially zealous and reckless in the Strategic Missile Forces there are nuclear batons that can cool the ardor.
    It's time to get used to living without war, despite the unrestrained barking of chained dogs of various colors, squeals and howls of other scavengers.
    hi
    1. Alien From
      Alien From 26 September 2021 17: 57
      0
      Applause to you! Honestly, in my opinion, the most sensible comment on the naval topic in a very long period of time hi
    2. Dmitry from Voronezh
      27 September 2021 00: 01
      -1
      Indicate tasks that aviation, submarine fleet, missile units cannot perform

      For example, win the naval war with Japan. Look how many forces of the Navy, Air Force, naval aviation, coastal troops are deployed in the Far East and what of this can be used in the event of a war with Japan. Compare with Japanese forces. Well, ten outdated submarines with backward torpedoes cannot defeat 20 modern ones. 10 NKs of different classes cannot fight on equal terms against 4 dozen modern destroyers. Add to this the difficulties with target designation for our ships, a small number of PLO aircraft of which 8 are relatively modern.
      1. Ross xnumx
        Ross xnumx 27 September 2021 03: 23
        -1
        Quote: Dmitry from Voronezh
        For example, win the naval war with Japan.

        If you read carefully, you may have realized that we are talking about the North-West region, about the Northern Fleet, and not about DV, TF and Japan ...
  16. hostel
    hostel 26 September 2021 17: 00
    +4
    This article is dedicated to all Uryayaya patriots who are ready to shower hats with s, cross-eyed Japanese and other Untermens. It is clearly shown that our fleet has sunk to amusing parades in the marquis puddle.
    As for the bewilderment about the patrol icebreakers, 22160, this is a way to master the money and replenish the fleet with non-combatant units. Wrecking, in a word.
  17. xomaNN
    xomaNN 26 September 2021 17: 03
    0
    the author is very angry with the Japanese and suspects them of all sorts of aggressive intrigues crying For me, given the fact that Japan itself is an island archipelago quite compact and vulnerable to a nuclear strike. Yes, yes ... what a hypocrite. If suddenly (with a 2% probability) the Japanese seize the Kuril Islands and climb Sakhalin, this will be a real threat to the integrity of the Russian Federation. Well, then several megaton missiles will not leave there not only the naval base and the fleet, but also Japan as a country.
    So it is nonsense to drag everything afloat to the Pacific Fleet. By BF and Kasp. floated. I agree - at a minimum, the crew.
    1. Dmitry from Voronezh
      27 September 2021 00: 07
      +1
      Hello Nikolay! Not at all, I'm never angry with the Japanese. On the contrary, I respect them as a very hardworking and talented nation. Perhaps that is why I am afraid of their military-technical power. In addition, because they are in cooperation with the United States and have access to the best military models, equipment, technologies. Therefore, yes, they are dangerous for us and they do not abandon plans to seize the southern Kuriles. And the weaker we are in the Far East, the more dangerous their plans are for us.
  18. S. Viktorovich
    S. Viktorovich 26 September 2021 17: 26
    +3
    The author described the current state of the fleet, which does not allow the forces of the fleet to resist even regional adversaries such as Japan and Turkey. We need a breakthrough based on new scientific and technical solutions, such as:
    -Global reconnaissance and target designation system in real time in the interests of all types of the Armed Forces;
    -system of jam-resistant communication, providing target designation and control of carriers and means of destruction;
    - long-range weapons from various carriers, tied to the global target designation system;
    -system for monitoring the underwater situation and information support for anti-submarine forces;
    - mine and anti-mine support.
    Replacing some ships with others, transferring them from fleet to fleet will not change anything. Of course, it is necessary to increase the number of aviation (space) carriers with an improvement in their characteristics.
    1. K298rtm
      K298rtm 26 September 2021 19: 13
      0
      The only thing left is to develop and create all of the above on the domestic element base.
      1. S. Viktorovich
        S. Viktorovich 26 September 2021 19: 22
        +1
        That's right, this should be done first of all, have a comprehensive program and not waste your time on trifles like fantasies about aircraft carriers.
  19. Alexander Maltsev
    Alexander Maltsev 26 September 2021 17: 36
    +1
    In the Baltic and Black Sea puddles, a large real fleet really has nothing to do, there are enough coastal defense forces capable of destroying any fleet.
  20. Artemion3
    Artemion3 26 September 2021 17: 38
    0
    Kuznetsov was built specifically for the deployment of SSBNs, and they are mainly in the Northern Fleet. And we also need at least one aircraft carrier to replace it, albeit at a great cost.
  21. Glagol1
    Glagol1 26 September 2021 17: 39
    +3
    The fact that the Pacific Fleet has priority is 100%. A remote theater, and the United States, Canada, and Japan are close by ... Of course, building aircraft carriers is not an option. More frigates, corvettes, depple and apl. Naval aviation. Coastal complexes. But the Pacific Fleet must be reinforced primarily with ships of 2-6 thousand tons.
  22. Paul_Zibert
    Paul_Zibert 26 September 2021 17: 55
    0
    The Japanese fleet is several dozen times stronger than the Pacific Fleet.
    One hope for Nuclear Weapons.
    But the use of nuclear weapons will create a domino principle.
  23. Bez 310
    Bez 310 26 September 2021 18: 24
    +4
    Interesting article...
    Until we have a clear concept of the country's development,
    it makes no sense to talk about the concept of the development of the Fleet of this
    country.
    While we are only renewing the underwater nuclear fist, and
    loading factories with work on the construction of ships, types
    which were pushed through by all sorts of lobbyists not in the interests of the fleet
    or countries, but in their own.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 27 September 2021 12: 06
      0
      Quote: Bez 310
      While we are only renewing the underwater nuclear fist

      While leaving it with little or no protection. sad
  24. Lair
    Lair 26 September 2021 18: 49
    0
    Quote: Paul_Zibert
    The Japanese fleet is several dozen times stronger than the Pacific Fleet.
    One hope for Nuclear Weapons.
    But the use of nuclear weapons will create a domino principle.

    So far, of course, not ten times stronger, but yes, the TOF is weaker than the Japanese Navy. And hope for nuclear weapons is foolish. Nobody will use it in a regional conflict ........
    1. Ross xnumx
      Ross xnumx 26 September 2021 19: 28
      0
      Quote: Lair
      Nobody will use it in a regional conflict ...

      It is in the regional. Precisely for an ostracism. Nuclear weapons are a deterrent against those who decide to establish new rules for territorial division.
      In a global conflict, the result of the use of nuclear weapons will no longer be so important ... For those who hide somewhere and survive.
      1. Dmitry from Voronezh
        27 September 2021 00: 30
        0
        Yes, nuclear weapons are a factor of unpredictability. What if the Russians really use it? I am sure that this factor is still holding back Japan. But at the same time, in the event of an attack on the southern Kurils, Japan will enjoy tremendous international support. They will arrange everything so that Japan is restoring constitutional order on its lands, and not at war with Russia. In the case of the use of strategic nuclear weapons, our country will immediately become the object of huge sanctions. Therefore, the most reasonable way for us is to rely on the fleet, air force, naval aviation, which would make the conflict with Russia too costly for the Japanese themselves, so that they strongly doubt that they can win.
        1. Ross xnumx
          Ross xnumx 27 September 2021 03: 19
          0
          Quote: Dmitry from Voronezh
          In the case of the use of strategic nuclear weapons, our country will immediately become the object of huge sanctions.

          Russia has been subject to sanctions for many years only because of its existence. I do not think that if Japan arranges aggression in the Far East, TF will be able to resist its fleet, both quantitatively and qualitatively. In fact, Russia has no military allies capable of acting in one formation. All are abandoned or betrayed for the sake of not applying those very sanctions. That is why the military doctrine of the Russian Federation presupposes:
          According to the new edition of the military doctrine, the Russian Federation reserves the right use nuclear weapons in response to the use of nuclear and other weapons of mass destruction against her and (or) her allies, as well as in the event of aggression against the Russian Federation with the use of conventional weapons, when the very existence of the state is threatened.

          hi
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 28 September 2021 11: 50
        -1
        Quote: ROSS 42
        It is in the regional. Precisely for an ostracism. Nuclear weapons are a deterrent against those who decide to establish new rules for territorial division.

        The problem is that the horror story of nuclear weapons does not always work for deterrence.
        40 years ago, it was shown that an attack with the aim of seizing (or returning) territories to a power possessing nuclear weapons and intercontinental means of delivering it is quite possible.
  25. askovvladimir70vladimir
    askovvladimir70vladimir 26 September 2021 19: 37
    0
    We cannot fight the whole world. straightaway. Thank God Our doctrine calls for the use of nuclear weapons in response to conventional provocations. But in a global war. except SSBN and yes God in the near future "Poseidons" we have nothing. I wrote in "VPK" several years ago about super-heavy ekranoplanes for the Northern Sea Route in civil and military versions, including aircraft carriers. Their transfer between the main fleets will take a day. type "Kuzi" with nuclear power plants with vertical takeoff aircraft, a couple of pieces for the Northern and Pacific fleets, and even in the export version for. sales. In the Baltic, in the Black Sea, there is no need to keep anything except coastal defense ships - now is another war. It will last
    no more than a couple of days. The main probable enemies are protected by the oceans and seas. - there, near them, and it is necessary to keep a fleet with nuclear weapons .. Even the Mediterranean squadron is now a waste of time. We have enough Tartus.
    1. Artemion3
      Artemion3 26 September 2021 19: 57
      -1
      Coastal defense aircraft carriers, without NPPs, similar to Elizabeth, tk. sailing far will not be required, cheaper than a nuclear aircraft carrier times 2. We need at least 2 pieces. to deploy SSBNs.
      1. Dmitry from Voronezh
        27 September 2021 00: 34
        +1
        This is the case, we have just barely mastered the production of gas turbines for frigates. Are there really spent gas turbine power plants that can be put on an aircraft carrier? At the same time, there are nuclear power plants that have been developed for both icebreakers and nuclear submarines. So, if you are going to build an aircraft carrier, then a nuclear one, since gas turbines for it can be expected for decades.
      2. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 27 September 2021 07: 21
        -1
        We do not need aircraft carriers at all, we are not going to attack Africa, and coastal aviation should work on our shores, everyone knows an obvious fact.
    2. Silhouette
      Silhouette 26 September 2021 20: 23
      0
      Quote: askovvladimir70vladimir
      We cannot fight the whole world. straightaway.

      But we will have to ... There is no other way out and is not foreseen. This must be clearly understood. We will not be able to fight only against Japan. We will not be able to fight only against Turkey. We will not be able to fight only with the United States. We will only fight NATO. And this is EVERYTHING. This is the whole world opposing us.
  26. evgen1221
    evgen1221 26 September 2021 20: 26
    +1
    Well, the Japanese themselves will not trample, not against the Chinese, not against us, for the island will end quickly from the cr to the ports and cities, they would rather switch from the hegemon to the new owner or declare neutrality, they are very much
    and geographically small for bombing.
  27. abc_alex
    abc_alex 27 September 2021 01: 01
    +2
    I object.
    1) Strategic distribution of the forces of the fleets.
    The author insists on the intensified development of the Pacific Fleet. But let's look at the map.

    Where to base a powerful fleet? In the Sea of ​​Okhotsk? It freezes. And the Sea of ​​Japan has three outlets to the ocean, two of which are blocked by Japan, and the third, in which case, will block the US fleet. In fact, the Pacific Fleet is also not entirely oceanic. It can only be guaranteed access to the ocean by building a powerful infrastructure in the Kuril Islands. The Japanese moan and cry for a reason. And it was not just that Russia fought for Port Arthur at the beginning of the 20th century. And the USSR rented bases from Vietnam.

    In fact, the only Russian fleet capable of going out into the ocean at any time is the Northern. There is a reason why our strategic forces have been assembled in the north. So if we want the fleet as a factor of strategic deterrence, then priority should be given to the Northern Fleet.
    And the Pacific Fleet, BF, ChMF should be formed as fleets of local confrontation.
    Probably, if the "Chinese factor" comes into play, then the Pacific Fleet can get new opportunities. But for now, you can't argue against geography.

    And that means "no, they are not needed" are not so unambiguous.

    I can't say anything about BF. But in my opinion, the Black Sea Fleet is not so strongly dependent on the direct balance of power with Turkey. Without any illusions about Turkish friendliness, let's look at the map again. Coastal missile systems located on the southern coast of Crimea block the entire Black Sea area almost to the entrance to the Bosphorus. And if Onyx in the Bastion is replaced by Onyx, whose combat range is (supposedly) higher, then it will not be necessary to measure the number of pennants with Turkey at all. It is not just that the jumpers suffer and howl across the Crimea.

    2)
    Su-30SM naval missile-carrying aircraft is a utopia. This aircraft is not designed to carry heavy rocket weapons. And this cannot be corrected within the framework of a small modernization, it is necessary to change the design of the center section. As a result, this option will not allow you to create a real shock MPA. One aircraft - one Onyx-class missile. This is a profanation. Russia does not have the resources to create MRA groupings based on the Su-30SM for at least two fleets. Yes, and for one it is highly questionable.
    In the "Sukhoi Zoo" there is another excellent aircraft capable of becoming the basis of the MRA - the Su-34. It is capable of carrying two Onyx-class missiles at once, it has a reinforced glider. In fact, this machine will become the equivalent of the Tu-22M for the Baltic Fleet and the ChMF. And for the Pacific Fleet, most likely, too.
    It is necessary to modernize this vehicle for the needs of the fleet.

    3)
    Aircraft carrier issues need to start with the “WHAT FOR?” Solution. Why and what kind of AV does Russia need? Based on this, and to talk about the composition of the wing. If (as I believe) it is an air defense aircraft carrier, then there will be enough machines on the MiG-29M2 platform.
    If the strike (which I consider insane), then aircraft will be required on the Su-27 or even Su-57 platform.
  28. Cowbra
    Cowbra 27 September 2021 04: 21
    +2
    Point-blank again, why, when comparing fleets, the line sounds like this - "IMPACT aircraft carriers"? And again - "Kuznetsov's place is in the Far East". Is it not cheaper to build an airfield? And not more reliable? You can't drown him. We grabbed onto these aircraft carriers. like in the radio. A defensive aircraft carrier is something like a cow saddle.
  29. Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 27 September 2021 07: 17
    +2
    in general, I agree that the fleets on the seas should be drastically reduced, the Baltic, Caspian, to several ships of the third rank. To leave submarines and several corvettes at the Black Sea Fleet, the same applies to the Sea of ​​Japan (Tsushima and La Perouse become closed like the Bosphorus in case of war). But first of all it is necessary to strengthen the Northern Fleet, there is a nuclear submarine! At the Pacific Fleet it is necessary to strengthen Kamchatka and it is possible to have a third-rank fleet in the Soviet harbor (to control the Sea of ​​Okhotsk through the Tatar Strait), it is possible to create a small base in the Okhotsk itself to accommodate the landing auxiliary ships of the NNS and corvettes. The first task of the fleet is not the Kuril Islands, but the SSBNs, it is they who must be protected and their safe exit and return should be maintained, we will keep the SSBNs = save Russia, and there is no point in protecting the Kuriles, we simply cut the aggressor with ballistic missiles when attacking the Kuril Islands (or another part of the Russian Federation).
  30. gregor6549
    gregor6549 27 September 2021 07: 40
    0
    All discussions about the development of the Russian Navy are of course interesting. The question is how useful they are. There are big doubts that when making decisions on this issue in high offices, our opinions and advice are hardly taken into account, even if these opinions and advice are expressed by professionals with relevant knowledge and experience.
    Even during the existence of the Country of Soviets, it was not customary to go to the authorities with their advice, if they, the authorities, did not ask for it. And for the publication of opinions, there have been and still exist specialized journals, etc. editions. But even there, each opinion has passed and is undergoing professional examination on various aspects of the material prepared for publication, including on the issues of secrecy.
    Unfortunately, on VO, everyone writes what he wants, often forgetting that "his every word is superfluous." After all, this can take away the work of many professionals from the CIA, etc. organizations, and many of them have families that need to be fed. This is of course a joke, but sometimes unnecessary frankness and details go off scale.
    1. Barberry25
      Barberry25 27 September 2021 13: 24
      0
      laughing the problem is that 9/10 of the topvar's experts are not experts, and half of the rest are pouring water on their branches of the armed forces.
  31. Artemion3
    Artemion3 27 September 2021 08: 07
    0
    Quote: vladimir1155
    We do not need aircraft carriers at all, we are not going to attack Africa, and coastal aviation should work on our shores, everyone knows an obvious fact.

    We are not going to attack, but we must protect the submarine from the air near our shores, and the basic aviation must still fly.
  32. spectr
    spectr 27 September 2021 10: 11
    0
    Perhaps we will soon find out where we are going. Somewhere in the press it flashed that a three-year plan for rearmament had been developed. The priority is given to the Strategic Missile Forces and the Navy.
  33. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 27 September 2021 10: 18
    0
    Over the past 10 years, naval aviation received 22 Su-30SM, 24 - MiG-29K / KUB and 8 - Il-38N. Not a single aircraft or AWACS helicopter, not a single electronic warfare aircraft, not a single new anti-submarine aircraft or helicopter.

    And it is not clear why Tu204 (214) is not used for reconnaissance, control center, etc. ?!
  34. Belov Vladimir
    Belov Vladimir 27 September 2021 11: 41
    0
    Now there is absolutely no need for the conduct of hostilities in order to seize foreign territories and a clear example of this is the destruction of the USSR, it is enough to organize the state in the country. a coup with a change of government and put the local corrupt elite in government and that's it! The creation of new effective weapons systems simply lost their meaning for this reason. All these stories about our rearmament exclusively for internal consumption and are intended to raise and form a fake sense of patriotism among the population. Who is our opponent? Who are we going to fight with and from whom to defend ourselves if our entire elite lives in NATO countries? In the modern world, all local wars are waged by PMCs and they do not need hypersonic and nuclear missiles and Poseidons, all the more so.
  35. Barberry25
    Barberry25 27 September 2021 13: 21
    -1
    a thoughtful reader will say one thing - there is no meaning in this scribble from the word at all ..
  36. cap830
    cap830 29 September 2021 10: 07
    0
    all this significantly reduces the likelihood of conflict and gives hope for a peaceful future

    The author operates with tactics and weapons of local wars and conflicts. It would be wonderful to have ships in the required quantity and of good quality in all fleets. Only the trouble is, as one legendary division commander said - "there are not enough cartridges, and it would not hurt to plant people."
    And according to military doctrine, the main hope for a peaceful future comes from nuclear weapons, which were not mentioned at all in the article. Japan knows him, knows it, and is unlikely to want, in the event of a fireworks display of its fleet off the coast of the Kuriles, to leave only bad memories of itself. The main deterrent is the presence of a nuclear triad capable of destroying any country with minor means of delivery. They will not shoot at ships and fleets, they will shoot at countries. And according to the military doctrine, the Russian Federation can use nuclear weapons in the event of any violation of sovereignty. It is necessary to revive the fleet, but not to the detriment of the living standards of the population.
  37. Lonely loner
    Lonely loner 30 September 2021 08: 29
    0
    Mk-48 block 4 does not shine for us in the near future, anti-torpedoes on submarines from the same opera.
  38. Lonely loner
    Lonely loner 30 September 2021 08: 34
    0
    We will not wait for an analogue of the Tu-95rts, and neither will the Tu-142. About modern rgb and air torpedoes, I generally keep quiet.
  39. Lonely loner
    Lonely loner 30 September 2021 10: 36
    0
    We shouldn't even dream about Mk-48 block4, and about counter-torpedoes on submarines too. Where is the promised Stirling and LIAB engine for the submarine ???
  40. Kade_t
    Kade_t 11 October 2021 16: 21
    0
    Everything is really bad with the Airfields in this region, I know not by hearsay that I served in Kamchatka. The combat radius of aviation is catastrophically lacking, we will always lack ships there, the problem can be solved, we need ground calibers up to 600 pieces, and reliable target designation 5-6, A-50, satellites, and ground radars in the Kuril Islands. The Japanese fleet can be neutralized by a massive strike of the Calibers over long distances. To strike at all military airfields with the same calibers with SBCs.
  41. Vasyatka
    Vasyatka 7 November 2021 11: 45
    0
    How many balabols are there from the past and present. And we feed this whole crowd of idlers-dreamers with our taxes, and give them also aircraft carriers. The hand is the face, guys.
  42. Evgeny Seleznev
    Evgeny Seleznev 10 November 2021 21: 58
    0
    It is worth adding here the problems with the many and varied types of ships. Equipped bases, repair facilities and maximum unification allowed for savings. Now that the pennant is not unique, the series should be like those of Arlie Burke's friends, a lot and of the same type. And not to come up with 3-4 types of ships of the same class.
  43. Terry18
    Terry18 12 November 2021 16: 55
    0
    Build a raft and sail from here to .... ...
  44. DO
    DO 27 November 2021 18: 40
    0
    Yes, with Japan everything is more or less clear. The Japanese Armed Forces are quite capable of invading the Kuril Islands, and even Sakhalin. However, if limited Japanese success occurs on Sakhalin, it will be short-lived. But in order to recapture the Kuril Islands, hypothetically occupied by the Japanese, the Russian Armed Forces will have to occupy Hokkaido.
    To prevent such an extremely undesirable scenario for all, the readiness of the RF Armed Forces to implement the said response to hypothetical aggression, clearly visible to everyone, can be clearly seen. For which, first of all, a modern, targeted "tuning" of Russian forces in the Pacific region is necessary. For example, the elimination of a gaping "hole" in target designation systems, primarily due to AWACS aircraft, including unmanned aerial vehicles; saturation of strike aircraft with S-70 stealth drones; a sufficient number of delivery vehicles, etc.
    With the Black Sea, everything is not so simple.
    Today the threat of aggression by the NATO fleet against Crimea dominates in the Black Sea. The mission is defensive, directed against the superior enemy fleet. It is solved primarily by the forces of coastal strike complexes, air defense and aviation. The surplus of Russian warships in the Black Sea, which in any case will not be enough for a direct naval battle, will rather create the problem of covering them from the coast and from the air, but will do little to help the defense of Crimea.
    The Russian presence in the Mediterranean Sea and the base in Tartus today most of all depend on a fragile peace, primarily with Turkey, which controls the main supply route of the Russian group. The larger the size of Russia's naval group in the Mediterranean, the more problems with its supply.
    On the other hand, in the event, God forbid, of a real war with Turkey, the Russian fleet in the Black Sea will need a completely different task, an offensive one. And in this case, measures will be required that are opposite to today's defensive measures - the all-round strengthening of the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation, landing ships, etc. In any case, Russia's readiness for this extremely undesirable war can cool the hot Turkish heads and prevent it.
    Therefore, the author's opinion about the maximum reduction of the Black Sea Fleet is too categorical, and does not take into account some political circumstances.
    As for the Baltic, the tasks of the Baltic fleet may be primarily to prevent possible missile attacks on Russian territory from NATO ships.
    Covering the Kaliningrad region from the sea is unlikely to be effective, due to the superior forces of the NATO fleet and the extended sea communications. Therefore, the problem of connectivity of the Kaliningrad region (KO) with Russian territory, in the event of aggression against the KO, will have to be solved primarily by land, diplomatic or military means.