PP-2011 Kedr-Para submachine gun. Old design and new cartridge

99

An early version of the PP-2011 "Kedr-Para" submachine gun with a silencer. Photo "Zlatmash"

Several years ago, on the basis of the serial submachine gun PP-91 "Kedr", a new product PP-2011 "Kedr-Para" was created, which had a number of important differences. Subsequently it weapon was repeatedly demonstrated at exhibitions and offered to potential customers, incl. foreign. The prospects for PP-2011 remained uncertain so far, but it is now known that Russian security agencies are interested in it.

Under the new cartridge


In 1993, the Zlatoust Machine-Building Plant (Zlatmash) mastered the serial production of the newest submachine gun PP-91 Kedr. This product was adopted by various structures of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Federal Security Service, etc. Over time, security and cash collection companies showed great interest in him.



As a result, a light and compact weapon with fairly high characteristics, using a gross cartridge 9x18 mm PM, has become widespread. Until now, "Cedar" is the most common example of its class in our country.

Almost immediately after the launch of the series, the process of improving the design began. So, back in the mid-nineties, by order of one of the law enforcement agencies, a modification of the PP-919 "Kedr-2" was developed for the 9x19 mm "Parabellum" cartridge. Also, the unified PP-9 "Wedge" underwent a similar revision as an experiment. For various reasons, both of these samples did not reach production, and the idea of ​​reprocessing "Kedr" under a new cartridge was temporarily postponed.


Modern version of PP-2011 with new equipment. Photo "Zlatmash"

At the turn of the 2011s and XNUMXs, Zlatmash developed a new version of the Cedar for the Parabellum cartridge. This product received the index PP-XNUMX, which reflects the year of creation, and the name "Kedr-Para", indicating the basic design and a new cartridge.

Such a submachine gun was repeatedly demonstrated at various exhibitions - in search of a future customer. Later, Zlatmash received permission to sell such weapons abroad, and Kedr-Para was included in the Rosoboronexport catalog. However, all these measures until recently did not lead to the desired results. As far as we know, the updated "Cedar" under 9x19 mm has not yet gone into production and has not been shipped to customers.

Latest news


On the Day of the Armourer, September 19, the current state of the Kedr-Para project and its possible prospects became known. RIA News published information received from the head of the Zlatmash small arms sales bureau Vadim Astashin. The representative of the enterprise recalled the goals of the project and the characteristics of the product, and also spoke about the current activities and plans for the future.

It is reported that the PP-2011 was developed as a modern replacement for the first version of the Kedr, which is in service with the security forces. In the recent past, he attracted the attention of the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs, which led to the start of relevant events. In August this year, "Kedr-Para" was tested in unnamed units under the supervision of the PKU NPO "Special Technics and Communications". The tests ended in success. At the same time, wishes were received for improving the design - the corresponding improvements have already been carried out.


Serial PP-91 "Kedr". Photo Vitalykuzmin.net

State tests are scheduled for the beginning of next 2022. After they are held, the Ministry of Internal Affairs will decide on the introduction of the new PP-2011 into service. At the same time, the exact dates for the appearance of the corresponding order and orders for the series are not named. The circle of future operators of the new weapon has not been revealed either.

Technical features


The aim of the PP-2011 Kedr-Para project was to transfer the original PP-91 to the new 9x19 mm Parabellum cartridge. By using a more powerful cartridge, it was planned to increase all the main characteristics of the weapon. Such tasks were solved by changing a number of key details, while other assemblies and components remained the same.

Cedar-Para retains the scheme and other basic features of the basic Cedar. The same rectangular receiver is used with the lower magazine receiver. The free breech automatics are preserved, but the breechblock and the reciprocating combat spring have been changed taking into account the characteristics of the new cartridge. The barrel actually differs only in the size and shape of the chamber.

The standard trigger-type firing mechanism is retained. On the starboard side of the receiver there is a fuse-translator flag with three positions: fuse, single and automatic fire.

Like its predecessor, the PP-2011 uses detachable box magazines for 20 or 30 rounds. The weapon can use ammunition 9x19 mm "Pair" of different types, incl. cartridge of increased penetration 7N21 and armor-piercing 7N31.

PP-2011 Kedr-Para submachine gun. Old design and new cartridge

Incomplete disassembly of the submachine gun. Photo Modernfirearms.net

Depending on the cartridge used, "Kedr-Para" is capable of showing a rate of fire up to 1000 rds / min. Bullet muzzle velocity - up to 430 m / s; energy - 638 J. The aiming range is determined at 200 m. At a distance of 100 m, shots are placed in a circle with a diameter of 150 mm. The possibility of defeating manpower in body armor and unprotected equipment is declared. At the same time, high accuracy dramatically reduces the risk of collateral damage.

PP-2011 is equipped with a folding stock, borrowed from the Kedr unchanged. Installation of a silent firing device is envisaged. As a result of recent improvements, the submachine gun has acquired a more comfortable shoulder rest. Also on both sides of the receiver there were Picatinny rails for mounting additional devices.

The upgraded PP-2011 "Kedr-Para" has a length of 312/540 mm (with folded / unfolded stock). Weight with a magazine without cartridges - 1,8 kg.

Product prospects


In general, PP-2011 is an interesting development that has a certain commercial potential. Potential customers should be interested in maintaining good ergonomics and other performance characteristics of the base "Cedar". At the same time, the new cartridge provides an increase in combat characteristics and removes all the reasons for criticism associated with the less powerful 9x18 mm.

The latest news shows that "Kedr-Para", after several years of uncertainty, still managed to interest some structures of the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs. In the coming months, all the necessary checks will pass, according to the results of which he will be able to enter service. It is quite possible that other structures will follow the Ministry of Internal Affairs, and then foreign customers will appear.


Modern pistol cartridges. Second from left - 9x18 mm PM, third from left - 9x19 mm "Parabellum". Photo Wikimedia Commons

Even without waiting for the results of future state tests, we can say that the new submachine gun turned out to be more successful and successful than a similar "Kedr-2" from the mid-nineties. He has already coped with part of the checks, received recommendations for further development and will soon be released for testing again.

The reasons for the current success are quite simple and directly related to the plans of potential customers. The fact is that in the mid-nineties, the army and law enforcement agencies showed interest in the new 9x19 mm Parabellum cartridge for them, but did not have the opportunity to begin its full-scale development. Accordingly, any new submachine guns not under the 9x18 mm PM had no real chance.

By now, a fundamental decision has been made to switch from the old 9x18 mm PM cartridge to the more powerful and widespread 9x19 mm "Parabellum", and besides, there are the necessary opportunities for this. With the aim of such rearmament under the new cartridge, promising models of various kinds are being created and put into service - and "Kedr-Para" from "Zlatmash" can join their ranks.

Potential and reality


The simple and successful design of the PP-91 "Kedr" submachine gun can be adapted without significant difficulties for a particular cartridge and for different purposes. Such its capabilities in recent decades have been repeatedly demonstrated with the help of various prototypes. However, the same products showed that the real prospects of any project are determined, first of all, by the requirements and capabilities of the customer, and the technical features fade into the background.

The new PP-2011 Kedr-Para submachine gun has once again confirmed the technical and operational potential of the original design. At the same time, unlike its predecessors, it appeared at the right time - and got a chance to reach full-fledged tests, according to the results of which it will be able to enter service. Whether the new weapon will be able to realize all the technical and commercial capabilities will become clear as early as next year.
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  1. 0
    21 September 2021 18: 04
    This cartridge is stronger, but by how much?
    1. -5
      21 September 2021 18: 18
      50 percent. And in general, fussing with the PP is a dead end.
      1. 0
        21 September 2021 18: 21
        Why then follow this path?
        1. +5
          21 September 2021 18: 24
          Yes, factories need to sell their products, and managers need to show activity, but in fact Vityaz and Kedr would be enough for all police and military tasks.
          1. +3
            21 September 2021 18: 27
            The interests of the factories are clear, then the professional suitability of the customer is not clear.
            1. +3
              21 September 2021 18: 31
              Imitation of violent activity.
              1. +5
                21 September 2021 18: 39
                Or personal mercantile interest, personal motives of various kinds.
        2. 0
          21 September 2021 19: 47
          They want to unify the cartridge for the Lebedev pistol, switch to a more powerful one.
          1. 0
            21 September 2021 21: 56
            But Lebedev's pistol is a pistol but not a pistol - a machine gun! Caliber is the cartridge and the capabilities of the weapon, but the functions are different and different uses
      2. +5
        21 September 2021 19: 08
        Pistol The machine gun is very convenient for various special forces.
        They are used all over the world
      3. -1
        21 September 2021 19: 40
        It's funny ... that is. patrolmen, security guards, private security companies and cash collection need to issue an AK-74 or better an AKM, or even better a PKM?
        1. +2
          21 September 2021 21: 27
          Police 9x17 above the roof ... ... ..
          1. -2
            21 September 2021 21: 41
            and what to pick armor with?
            1. +2
              21 September 2021 21: 43
              And whom do the police and traffic police and the opera and the guards in the armor see?
              1. -3
                21 September 2021 21: 44
                bandits ..
                1. 0
                  21 September 2021 21: 49
                  They have the wrong specialization, and in their case, wounding is better than killing. But other calibers are available to specialists.
                  1. +1
                    21 September 2021 21: 54
                    the need for an increase in stopping power is considered, which is why we switched from 9 * 18 to 9 * 19 ..
                    1. 0
                      22 September 2021 15: 50
                      Quote: Barberry25
                      the need for an increase in stopping power, which is why we switched from 9 * 18 to 9 * 19 ..

                      Duc just a bullet from Parabellum is sharpened and the charge is more powerful, this guarantees a breakdown of light protection, but if it is not there, it will be sewn right through. The PM has a higher stopping power due to its shape and average charge power, but the accuracy and penetration of the protection is low.
          2. +2
            22 September 2021 15: 06
            Quote: Zaurbek
            Police 9x17 above the roof ... ... ..

            The massacre in Miami showed that 9x19 is not enough. In order to finally stop Michael Platt, it took 12 hits, and after the first 10 he continued to fire and move (6 wounds did not prevent him from running up to the FBI sheep car and killing two agents).
        2. +1
          22 September 2021 18: 06
          That's right, and in the trunk of the patrol car there should be "Kord".
        3. 0
          23 November 2021 18: 16
          Quote: Barberry25
          It's funny ... that is. patrolmen, security guards, private security companies and cash collection need to issue an AK-74 or better an AKM, or even better a PKM?

          The biggest nonsense I've ever seen is the cop with AKSU on the street. It is categorically impossible to shoot there from such a weapon, you will put more people with a ricochet than those who you shoot. For this, there are PP for a pistol cartridge, which has a minimum ricochet.
      4. +6
        22 September 2021 01: 46
        In fact, PPs are in great demand by law enforcement. To shoot from Kalash in the middle of a peaceful city is so-so an idea.
    2. +4
      21 September 2021 18: 37
      Quote: Vadim Ananyin
      This cartridge is stronger, but by how much?

      muzzle energy of a bullet cartridge 9x19 Parabellum - from 450 J (there are less powerful in this caliber, but it seems they are not designated as Parabellum)
      muzzle energy of a bullet cartridge 9x18 PM - from 300-305 J
    3. 0
      27 September 2021 06: 01
      gunpowder can be applied 7% more
  2. +2
    21 September 2021 18: 19
    Submachine guns have a very simple design, simpler than pistols. Probably, almost every state produced them or is producing them now. According to their characteristics, they are all practically the same; probably the only criterion is the price. Cheaper is better.
    Why is this "Cedar" better than "Cypress", "Wedge" and other PP? How does it differ from them at all? (nothing).
    1. +2
      21 September 2021 18: 24
      Well then, are there bad specialists in management? If they make such decisions, why produce a bunch of similar designs with the same performance characteristics?
      1. 0
        21 September 2021 18: 33
        That's right, the managerial level is below the baseboard. 500 million mortgages.
    2. +3
      21 September 2021 18: 39
      Quote: Ivan1779
      According to their characteristics, they are all practically the same; probably the only criterion is the price

      very controversial
      reliability, convenience, ergonomics, accuracy, simplicity
      a lot of criteria
      and all models differ from each other
    3. +2
      22 September 2021 03: 26
      Quote: Ivan1779
      Submachine guns have a very simple design, simpler than pistols.

      Only if it is a mobilization weapon or an artifact such as "Borza".
      1. -1
        22 September 2021 09: 41
        How does the "Borza" design differ from the "Cedar"? And also from PPSh, PPS and others (not all to list). A very simple circuit is a free shutter. A pistol (even with a free breech, such as PM, has more details and is more complex.
        1. +4
          22 September 2021 10: 04
          Quote: Ivan1779
          How does the "Borza" design differ from the "Cedar"?

          Yes, even with a trigger trigger and the opening of fire from a closed bolt.

          Quote: Ivan1779
          A very simple circuit - free shutter
          Do you confuse the design with the principle of operation of the automation?

          Quote: Ivan1779
          And also from PPSh, PPS and others (not all to list). A pistol (even with a free breech, such as PM, has more details and is more complex.
          MP-5, PP-2000, Scorpion, PPK-20 unfortunate and the same Kedr shoot from a closed bolt and have a complex trigger. And there are a lot of such PPs and a pistol, they are no simpler.
  3. +2
    21 September 2021 18: 22
    And why is such a scheme better than Stechkin (or when the store is in the handle)? The barrel turns out to be shorter, the accuracy is worse
    1. 0
      23 September 2021 05: 05
      I will correct it. Not the barrel is shorter, but the dimensions of the weapon, the barrel can be even longer.
      1. 0
        23 September 2021 09: 19
        With equal dimensions, the barrel should be longer for a scheme with a magazine in the handle.
        1. 0
          23 September 2021 10: 20
          Exactly. Not shorter as you wrote originally, but longer
  4. +1
    21 September 2021 18: 27
    I understand that in spite of all the "picatinas-shmakatini" you can't put a colimmator on it? Well, only if from the side, and smack "gangsta-style"? what
    1. -2
      21 September 2021 18: 35
      Colimmator for light and short PP? Useless pribluda. On its real
      application distances.
      1. +4
        21 September 2021 18: 38
        Colimmator for light and short PP
        I will reveal a terrible secret! Only t-s-s-s-s-s! Colimmators are even installed on pistols. And the American police are betting on the BCP. Probably fools? Or maybe for beauty? what
        At its real application ranges.
        15 meters?
        1. -2
          21 September 2021 18: 41
          Fashion. Just fashion. But remember the shooting of 4 American specialists somewhere.
          in Africa? There was still a vidos from go proshki. Kalik only one.
          m4 were. There kalik in the subject.
          1. +2
            21 September 2021 18: 46
            I'll tell you my experience. Not with weapons of war. Just pneumatic gas-cylinder MINI UZI (steel balls 4,5 mm) At first I shot offhand and just from the mechanics. It looks like a toy, but at 15 meters I was sewing a sheet of gypsum fiber board and chipping away at the concrete pylon. Well, okay, in general, when I put the calik, the accuracy has increased several times (as much as possible with a smooth barrel). Especially offhand. hi
            1. -5
              21 September 2021 18: 53
              I thought so.
              1. +1
                23 September 2021 12: 24
                I thought so.
                thinking is not about people like you. Just in case. Catch on "ah-ah-ah .... I was shooting from pneumatics ... ha-ha-ha." Here is the level of your "thinking"
            2. +2
              22 September 2021 15: 57
              Quote: Region-25.rus
              Well, okay, in general, when I put the calik, the accuracy has increased several times (as much as possible with a smooth barrel).
              so they put it in order to see where the barrel is oriented / directed! smile Naturally, accuracy increases when you shoot offhand and when you have no time to look for a front sight and aim.
              1. +1
                23 September 2021 12: 28
                so they put it in order to see where the barrel is oriented / directed!
                but i have since))) hi Moreover, I also shot him. And if you put the barrel extension, you had to do everything again.
          2. +1
            23 September 2021 05: 14
            You would have figured out what a collimator is. This is not a sniper scope, the collimator enhances the luminous flux, the target will be seen more clearly, incl. and at dusk, and also increases the aiming speed. There are also enough disadvantages, but still the advantages outweigh.
            1. 0
              23 September 2021 18: 46
              Quote: YOUR
              You would have figured out what a collimator is. This is not a sniper scope, the collimator enhances the light output

              Well, if you started to understand, you would also write about the LCC, which are usually used in the range invisible from the side and create a light mark. The collimator sights themselves are not sniper sights, of course, no one wrote about this, but there are complexes that display an image at x4. As I understand it, the guy put an open collimator on the pneumatics, which we discussed with him.
        2. -3
          21 September 2021 18: 45
          50 meters. Further PP is not needed. PP is a lot and point-blank.
          1. +3
            21 September 2021 18: 48
            50 meters. Further PP is not needed
            Well, you can't argue with that. I imagine a picture - "Commander! Distance to the enemy 65 meters! What to do? - But what to do here? Stop! Let's go smoke!"
            1. -7
              21 September 2021 18: 52
              And I imagine a different picture - a militia patrol is walking through the city and from 65 meters shoots criminals from PP with kolimmators. Or a group of specialists walks and knocks down the enemy from PP with kolimmators. Automatic cowards' weapon.
              1. +2
                23 September 2021 12: 31
                And I present a different picture
                for God's sake. At least imagine. Just do not need to pass off your "ideas" as reality.
                1. -2
                  23 September 2021 12: 32
                  Well, you give it out. Why can't I?
                  1. +2
                    23 September 2021 12: 33
                    Why can't I?
                    I didn’t say NO. I said no need. I will not chew the difference. For I feel no sense judging by statements like -
                    The machine gun is a weapon of cowards.

                    Well, you give out
                    and I betray reality. I personally duplicate it again - https://www.youtube.com/c/PRO_Police real shooting from body cameras of police officers in the United States. I recommend looking at how, what and where, and most importantly, with collimators.
                    1. -3
                      23 September 2021 12: 36
                      Quote: Region-25.rus
                      For I feel no sense judging by statements like -
                      Machine gun cowards

                      A sense of humor is a sure sign of intelligence. With a sense of humor, you are strained.
                      1. +1
                        23 September 2021 12: 38
                        With a sense of humor, you are strained.
                        with the primitive - yes. I admit.
                        A sense of humor is a sure sign of intelligence
                        and to quote such statements out of place, all the more wink
                      2. +2
                        23 September 2021 12: 44
                        and by the way, about -
                        Pneumatic shegol
                        I will list the range of shooters from which I had a chance to shoot:
                        at school - shooting section: TOZ-8, TOZ-12, Ural-1, MC (Margolin pistol)
                        in the army - AK-74 (approximately three horns for one firing from different positions) 1 time on guard (on-site), on the outskirts of Novosibirsk (summer 1993). PM - a couple of shops (the officers gave it to pop). In the army, being on a business trip in the taiga (three months), a Mosin carbine, a vertical (I do not remember the manufacturer). A bit of SCS
                      3. -1
                        23 September 2021 12: 57
                        Quote: Region-25.rus
                        I will list the range of shooters from which I had a chance to shoot:

                        Horrible laughing
                    2. -1
                      23 September 2021 12: 40
                      Quote: Region-25.rus
                      I recommend looking at how, what and where, and most importantly, with collimators.

                      I didn't see a single PP with a collimator. Yes, I didn't see a PP there. But you don't care, you fired from pneumatics. laughing
        3. 0
          23 September 2021 10: 25
          ... and a lot of money.
    2. 0
      21 September 2021 19: 44
      the effective range of PP in urban areas is 50 meters, but in fact it is 25 meters. From this range, the mechanics will do. In the same way, they do not put a collimator on a pistol
      1. +3
        22 September 2021 15: 11
        Quote: Barberry25
        the effective range of the PP in urban areas is 50 meters, but in fact it is 25 meters.

        For the police, even a lot. Judging by the experience of the Yankees, most of the shootings take place at distances of up to 10 m. And everything that follows is for the most part the work of special forces with all sorts of shots at 5,56.
        1. +1
          23 September 2021 12: 30
          I recommend a channel on this topic - https://www.youtube.com/c/PRO_Police There are cases of the use of weapons by the US police. And you will be very surprised to see the regular patrol and M4. Moreover, they are used at any distance. Until entering residential buildings.
          1. 0
            23 September 2021 16: 09
            Quote: Region-25.rus
            And you will be very surprised to see the regular patrol and M4.

            I will not be surprised at all. I saw a video of a shootout in the parking lot near the store, where the cop got carried away with shooting and managed to knock out the rear window of a nearby car with a carbine. smile And during the recent riots, one of the theses pogromists the peaceful protesters were that the police are more and more like the army in armament and it is necessary to take away the army-type weapons from the police.
            I was probably inaccurately formulating my idea. As a personal weapon, a policeman needs a pistol chambered for a good stopping effect. And for everything beyond effective pistol shooting, there are AR-ki clones.
            The submachine gun is superfluous in this system: for close range it is cumbersome and dangerous for others, and for long range it is not accurate enough.
  5. +3
    21 September 2021 19: 17
    "Cedar" - Design by Evgeny Dragunov. Modified by Mikhail Evgenievich Dragunov.
    That is, the joint work of father and son
    1. 0
      21 September 2021 19: 25
      Tell me, what is original, author's, Dragunov's in this construction? Absolutely standard PP. Such a design (very simple, even primitive, but quite sufficient) can be made by any process engineer.
  6. +1
    21 September 2021 21: 13
    And the rate of fire of 1000 rds / min is not excessive for this kind of PP? Can it be adjusted (reduced), for example, by the weight of the shutter on this PP?
    1. 0
      21 September 2021 23: 56
      Of course it is redundant, and this is a minus. The design is the simplest - a free shutter, the receiver is short, there are no rollback retarders, so 1000 rounds per minute are obtained.
  7. +2
    21 September 2021 21: 18
    Here's another thing there is wassat :
    "The service pistol PST-S" Corporal "chambered for traumatic action 10x23T is intended for private and departmental security structures when protecting the objects entrusted to them. The pistol is based on the submachine gun designed by EF Dragunov PP-91" Kedr ". single shots.

    Has open sights.

    The pistol is made from the same weapon steels as the Kedr submachine gun.

    The bore is smooth, chrome-plated. "

    https://www.arms-expo.ru/armament/samples/1311/117927/
  8. +1
    21 September 2021 21: 28
    This PP has "roots". from the Czech "Scorpion"?
  9. +2
    22 September 2021 12: 01
    When you love weapons, you can't help but appreciate SMGs, they are easy to make, and that simplicity means there are always new and different models to analyze and explore. WITH.
    I am dealing with a weapon that is available in many countries and beyond, given that submachine guns are handcrafted by many criminal organizations.
    Thanks to Intruder users (Denis Alekseev) e
    psiho117 (Dmitry) for information and photos above for 7N31 and 7N21 ammunition.
    1. +1
      23 September 2021 05: 24
      What's the new model ???? Something is not right in our kingdom, the trunk and the breakout have changed.
      OTs-27 pistol aka Berdysh. The Ministry of Defense refused, a certain amount was delivered to the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the reviews are the most positive. So, this pistol was immediately manufactured under THREE cartridges - 7.62 * 25, 9 * 18 (9 * 18 PMM) and 9 * 19. A certain amount was released at once with 3 barrels in a container. Then they decided that this approach was redundant and began to supply everything at the request of the customer.
      1. +2
        23 September 2021 05: 25
        This is how it was supplied
      2. 0
        23 September 2021 16: 09
        I was not talking about Russian submachine guns in particular, even if the PPK-20 is a recent model, but about submachine guns around the world, where between prototypes and ammunition they are much more than rifles
      3. 0
        23 September 2021 20: 45
        OTs-27 pistol aka Berdysh

        What about this interesting barrel now? Not produced at all? For a long time it was only possible to hold 9-mm in hands. THING!
        1. 0
          24 September 2021 05: 41
          You have not noticed that only samples of the Kalashnikov concern are being considered. The rest, no matter how wonderful, are outsiders.
          Berdysh was released in an extremely limited series, currently not in production.
          1. 0
            24 September 2021 18: 02
            But GSh-18 and "Rook" are still accepted for service, even he himself saw "rooks" in the army request
            1. +1
              24 September 2021 19: 48
              Quote: Oberstung
              What about this interesting barrel now? Not produced at all?

              It was released in a limited edition, and scattered across various special and not very special units.
              It is on hand, the fighters use it, praise it.
              At one time, the fighters who had this machine behind them caused tons of envy on the part of those who had to be content with the first series of the PYa gunfire.
            2. +1
              25 September 2021 02: 19
              At the expense of GSH-18, it was not adopted by the Army. Adopted by the Federal Penitentiary Service, the FSSP, in the Rosgvardia there is also the prosecutor's office liked it, well, as a premium weapon.
              And on the PL, the army has been rearmed since 2003. The rearmament is neither shaky nor shaky.
              In May last year, we declared quarantine in the city, which is rather strange. With a residence permit, you can leave the city and enter, without a residence permit just leave. But with this, okay not about that conversation. At all checkpoints there were special forces of the Russian Guard, all were armed with AK-105s I did not see others, pistols in open holsters on someone's belt on someone's hip could not really be seen, but not PM and not PY, the impression was that a submarine. You can't really see it and stares at the serious armed people who are ready to shoot somehow not camilfo.
              1. 0
                25 September 2021 12: 27
                It is possible that the submarine, maybe the "Boa constrictor". Somewhere in the internet there were dozens of samples in the "operating" divisions. It seems like the GSh-18 is good for everyone, but ... the ejection of the casings upwards (by the collar when driving) and the open front end of the receiver with lugs inside, the plastic frame for the army pistol - well, somehow nekomilfo. IMHO
                1. 0
                  27 September 2021 11: 20
                  Glock with a plastic frame. Shot to failure up to 300. There is no such other weapon.
                  It is in service with armies, police, special forces of 50 countries, including ours.
        2. The comment was deleted.
  10. 0
    25 September 2021 16: 41
    PP has been designed for a hundred years (((what else is there to invent ????
  11. Eug
    0
    4 November 2021 13: 54
    A strange decision to switch to 9x19 - if you switch to a more powerful cartridge, then to 9x21.
  12. 0
    14 November 2021 14: 33
    Does the cedar have something in common with Scorpio?
  13. 0
    15 November 2021 23: 35
    We found several packs of 9x19 parabellocks at the battlefield, then they shot them from the PM at bottles, the only trouble was they loaded one cartridge through the ejection window, they did not enter the PM store, they were very good cartridges, they were not inferior to PMs, so many years have passed and not a single misfire ....
  14. -1
    3 December 2021 12: 38
    Yes, CEDAR is an excellent example! Himself in the service owned one ... when he was a traffic cop. In addition to the PM, he took CEDR for himself. The car is very comfortable. If it goes on in series with 9x19 parabellum, it will be great.
  15. 0
    26 December 2021 15: 48
    "Kedr" and "Wedge" have no special alternatives - compactness, hidden wearing and the possibility of shooting with a stock in a helmet like ZSH or other helmets with a visor.
    The only thing, in the SR3-MP, they made the butt adjustable to the bottom of the fire control handle in order to be applied with the visor lowered. But this is still exotic. And not cheap.
    PP samples under 9x18 are not eternal. Sooner or later, you will have to write off anyway. This is where the PP-2011 comes in handy.
    1. 0
      27 December 2021 09: 27
      For example.
      Pictures from Vitaly Kuzmin from open access.
  16. 0
    2 January 2022 14: 38
    Pour more gunpowder in 9x18 and you will have a cartridge similar in its characteristics to 9x19 ..... But what should you shoot from? PM will probably die, APS? The CZ-82 can and will survive ...