In China, flight tests of the J-20 with the WS-15 aircraft engine are again postponed: new design problems

In China, flight tests of the J-20 were once again postponed. aviation WS-15 engine. This engine is being developed by Chinese specialists to equip the fifth generation fighters - J-20 and J-31. This is at least the second postponement of testing of a promising Chinese aircraft engine since the beginning of the year.

Recall that a few months ago (in May this year), the Chinese media reported about "a breakthrough technology discovered by Chinese scientists." It was a fullerene membrane coating for aircraft engine turbines. At the same time, such membranes, as reported, can bring operating temperatures up to 1800 degrees Celsius. Thus, according to the statements of Chinese reporters, "the problem of thrust loss when the engine reaches operating temperatures will be finally solved." It was also stated that the new coating is capable of doubling the life of engines when operating in low humidity conditions.

Then it turned out that the announcement of "the final solution to the problem of engines for fifth generation fighters" was made prematurely. It turned out that when reaching operating temperatures in the engine chamber, processes arise that lead to a significant increase in the sorption qualities of those very membranes. The coating began to absorb the working substance, or became the reason for its thickening with the occurrence of an "unnecessary" chemical reaction. As a result, fuel consumption was prohibitive.

By the beginning of September, China promised to rectify the situation and bring the J-20 from the WS-15 to flight tests. However, now again we have to admit that the problems with the technological component of the aircraft engine have not been resolved.

As it became known, Chinese experts tried to solve the problem of applicability of fullerene films by creating an additional chamber. In this case, it was assumed that the temperature would be evenly distributed over the increased volume of the structure, which would also reduce the absorbing properties of the membranes. But there were also problems with the additional camera - with the design. As a result, the situation boiled down not only to an increase in the size of the engine, but also to the fact that almost the entire fuel system of the fighter would have to be rebuilt in order to mount it on the J-20.

Comments

[Vadim237]

And these technical problems with engines will haunt Chinese designers and engineers for a long time to come; in the end, it will all boil down to purchasing 30 products from Russia when they are finished with us and put into production.

[alexmach]

Sooner or later, in one way or another, they will finish it. There is no getting away from this.

[Mountain shooter]

Quote: alexmach

Sooner or later, in one way or another, they will finish it. There's no getting away from it

This can be TOO long. Aircraft of the 5th Chinese generation now fly on Russian-made AL-31s. Let them work in the chosen direction. I know for sure that no fullerene coatings are used in product 30.

[dauria]

in the end, everything will come down to the purchase of 30 products from Russia, when we have it completed and put into production.

Have you forgotten that the Chinese brought soil from the Moon? If there is work, there will be a result. We wouldn't have to buy engines from them in ten years.

[Vadim237]

Bringing soil from the moon is not the same as making a jet engine, and even more so a gas turbine is the share of energy.

[Puzoter]

When the Chinese finish it :))

[Zaurbek]

In place of China, it was quite possible to immediately buy Al41 ..... for a massive replacement of Al31. and then saw your miracle

[FRoman1984]

Al-41f is not sold to China separately. The purchase is linked only to airplanes.

[Zaurbek]

What's the secret? Al41 is no longer ahead of progress ..... complete with Su35S, they were sold anyway ..... otherwise, without a license, China will not be able to reproduce them. And sales, taking into account their Air Force, will be in the thousands.

[FRoman1984]

Quote: Zaurbek

What's the secret? Al41 is no longer ahead of progress ..... complete with Su35S, they were sold anyway ..... otherwise, without a license, China will not be able to reproduce them. And sales, taking into account their Air Force, will be in the thousands.

This is our most advanced production engine so far. Yes, China cannot repeat it either in terms of reliability, resource or fuel consumption.
China does not need our planes, but we want to sell final products, loading not only Saturn with orders, but also all the subcontractors involved in the construction of the plane.

[Zaurbek]

The turbojet engine is not a rental of metal ..... But also a product. And you need to understand that the production of airframes, weapons and weapons in China has been established ... of the Su30 and Su35 levels ...

[Kedrovich]

And there was nothing for a long time to introduce into the habit of doing substandard things in consumer goods. Here is the result. They can no longer physically move away from this habit even in serious things.

[RPG_]

Here I would argue. It remains to be seen who will bring their engines to mind faster than us or the Chinese.

[Zaurbek]

Here China, it seems to me, stepped on its own hand ... they bought a license for Su27 and Su30 ... for a turbojet engine, it seems not ... They did not buy a certain number of car sets under a contract when they realized , that they can do them themselves ........ but in the development they were given the technology of the Sukhoi Design Bureau. If the contract had been fulfilled normally, maybe they would have been helped with AL31 in the same way.

[Sands Careers General]

Well, the fact that the Chinese are already, at the very least, can make aircraft engines, already compels respect. There are few countries in the world that know how to make them.

[Roma 1977]

At the very least, many can. But in order to produce supersonic sound without afterburner, the remaining fingers of the old milling machine will be enough ...

[75 Sergey]

So it seems like a Tu-128 without afterburner flew supersonic, didn't it?

[Zaurbek]

Even this will already be done ... now the struggle is for weight / thrust / resource / size ... and only in the liberal dreams of bright people there are projects of combined turbojet engines ...

[Kedrovich]

This is not an indicator. It's just that other countries haven't even tried it.

[Dmitry Vladimirovich]

Low humidity?
South China and Southeast Asia have 100% humidity almost all year round.
Northern China and Tibet - half a year.
Perhaps in the desert.

[knn54]

It seems that there are (not fully resolved) problems in the production of gas turbines and flame tubes.

[Zaurbek]

The very scheme of the turbojet engine is simpler than the internal combustion engine ..... what else is the problem ...

[Normann]

What was required to be proved - so far only import ...

[Piramidon]

Quote: Normann

What was required to be proved - so far only import ...

[APASUS]

One can only envy the portability of the Chinese and the funds allocated for science in the country. It will take 5, well, 10 years and they will decide everything and we will still buy turbines from them. As long as ours keep the brand, but if we do not invest, we will quickly fall behind

[Vadim237]

We have our own turbines that do both for aviation and for energy - and in 10 15 years in this regard, the Chinese with their undertakings on a clean slate will not be a success.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: APASUS

One can only envy the stubbornness of the Chinese and the funds allocated for science in the country. It will take 5, well, 10 years and they will decide everything and we will still buy turbines from them. As long as ours keep their brand, but if we don’t invest, we will quickly fall behind

This is the message I prefer to this one:

Quote: Vadim237

And these technical problems with engines will haunt Chinese designers and engineers for a long time to come; in the end, it will all boil down to purchasing 30 products from Russia when they are finished with us and put into production.

Only forty years have passed since then, when we “brainwashed” the passengers of the Moscow-Beijing express train with endless columns of military equipment rushing in the dust parallel to the railway track, and in the evenings we told jokes about “Chinese tanks - both in the center”. Today there are two aircraft carriers in China, but what about us?
Less than 20 years ago (2003) the first Chinese cosmonaut was launched into space (42 years after Yuri Gagarin's flight), and today a Chinese rover is traveling across Mars, and we are renting a place on the American ISS.
Today Russia buys Chinese electronics, and Chinese builders are flooding high-rise buildings in Russia.
Today they still can't do it with aircraft engines, so where is this famous "Product 30"? Please do not respond with rhymes ...
Therefore, we must silently envy the stubbornness of the Chinese and their laws, which make it possible to allocate huge funds for the army and science, and not for additional capitalization of banks.

[sleeve]

Take a calculator, multiply everything that is now in the Russian Federation by at least 5 times (not 10 as the population of the PRC). Then you start building aircraft carriers, so that at least somewhere else to drain the loot ... You can, of course, downgrade the salary to Chinese (in the bulk), with taxes the same way to steer (then certainly not 300 billion green, but all 500). But ... What is typical, according to PPP, your (our) GDP in this situation (not X10, but only X5) will swing up to 20 trillion greens ... With the Chinese 24 ... Hmm. What is missing? Maybe at least not 150, but 750 million? Is it enough for us to start swallowing the dust? In the meantime ... the 5th generation of fighters from three countries, though one without an engine (but in a series !!!) is it really great?) And they brought the soil from the moon, though half a century later than us, but they brought it !!!))) And they have aircraft carriers !!! Is it really great?))) Is it purely out of the interest of the PRC, does anyone build a nuclear power plant?

[Vadim237]

“Today Russia buys Chinese electronics - an amendment not Chinese, but the same Western one, simply released in China on foreign equipment and according to Western documentation,“ And Chinese builders are flooding high-rise buildings in Russia. ”This is truly enchanting nonsense.
And why should I envy the Chinese, they have their own way of copy-pasting and hybridization of world developments as well as industrial espionage without hesitation - while Russia has its own way of creating and developing products on its own.

[Terran ghost]

And why should I envy the Chinese, they have their own way of copy-pasting and hybridization of world developments

Well, as such, "copy-paste and hybridization" are global methods. And almost everyone is engaged in them to one degree or another.
It's just that in the case of China, starting from the late 1980s, many of their high-tech production facilities were physically brought there by American and Western European companies. From which the Chinese companies have already directly adopted the technologies. And then they began to develop their own. Until that moment (late 1980s), all "copy-and-paste" in China produced either copies of long-outdated products, or low-quality, but very cheap products of light industry (shoes, clothes, and so on).

[Vadim237]

There are several well-known purely Chinese brands that are very popular in the world. Until that moment (late 1980s), all "copy-and-paste" in China produced either copies of long-outdated products, or low-quality, but very cheap products of light industry (shoes, clothes, and so on). Yes, with such high-quality Chinese products of mechanical engineering - machine tool industry, I personally encountered in 2012 when I bought 2 CNC machines, both were covered within four months.

[Terran ghost]

Several well-known purely Chinese brands, name which are very popular in the world

Huawei, Xiaomi for example ...

[Alex777]

Quote: ROSS 42

Therefore, we must silently envy the stubbornness of the Chinese and their laws, which make it possible to allocate huge funds for the army and science, and not for additional capitalization of banks.

Tell us about pensions in China. What about pensions?

[Sidor Amenpodestovich]

Quote: APASUS

It will take 5, well, 10 years and they will decide everything and we will still buy turbines from them.

About twenty years ago there was a popular opinion that in twenty years we all - Russians, in the sense - will drive Chinese cars.

[APASUS]

Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich

in twenty years we are all Russians, in the sense that we will drive Chinese cars.

We will, and I do not even doubt it. It was neglect to remember the Korean cars, but now .........

[Sidor Amenpodestovich]

Quote: APASUS

I remember that Korean cars were neglected, but now

And now that everyone in Russia drives Korean cars?

[APASUS]

Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich

And now that everyone in Russia drives Korean cars?

And now Nyundai plows in 3 shifts, there are so many orders. I know because they work nearby

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: APASUS

We will, and I don't even doubt it. I remember that Korean cars were neglected, but now ...

The main thing is that we understood each other. And then some here are forced to do arithmetic and believe that the GDP of a country where inflation is 6,5% per annum is an indicator of the level of development, while others say something about Chinese cars, which are more Russian in the yard of my house today.
==========
Something I do not hear comparisons about smartphones, TVs, computers ... We saw both ups and downs ... Today the country is on a deep rise, and here you are working out the chips without noticing that:

 Show / Hide text

[Sidor Amenpodestovich]

Quote: ROSS 42

Something I don't hear comparisons about smartphones, TVs, computers

Come on. Where, for example, are American TVs? Where are the Japanese smartphones? Why are Koreans and Chinese among the top sellers there? Have such technologically developed countries forgotten how to produce innovative samples of consumer electronics? Or is there also money and children abroad, and everything that was stolen beyond one's strength was thrown into yachts?
Computers.
The most advanced process technology available to Chinese processor manufacturers is 24nm. The smaller one is not available to them, because they do not have their own equipment, and they cannot buy it because of the sanctions.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich

And let's.

Oh, take it ...

Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich

Where, for example, are American TVs?

IN THE USA...

Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich

Where are the Japanese smartphones?

In Japan...

Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich

Why are Koreans and Chinese among the top sellers there?

Because it's cheaper ...

Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich

Have such technologically developed countries forgotten how to produce innovative samples of consumer electronics?

They have not forgotten how to do it and are producing ...

Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich

Or is there also money and children abroad, and everything that was stolen beyond one's strength was thrown into yachts?

Not everything and not abroad ...

Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich

Computers.
The most advanced process technology available to Chinese processor manufacturers is 24nm. The smaller one is not available to them, because they do not have their own equipment, and they cannot buy it because of the sanctions.

So what? Russia is the largest oil producer, gasoline in Russia is more expensive than in Kazakhstan, and the efficiency of the refinery is:

The depth of oil refining in Russia is 74%, in Europe - 85%, in the USA - 96%.

[Sidor Amenpodestovich]

Tell me the brand of American TV.
Sony smartphones are made in China. Sharp Akvos is only sold in Japan.
That is, it is a shame for Russia not to have its own smartphones and TVs, but for America and Japan - expediency, because it is cheaper? And this is not a double standard, is it?
Have you forgotten how to do it? Well? Why do they prefer foreign, that is to say, Chinese, and not their own, native? Because it is more profitable? So they can, but we can't? Should we have our own, no matter what?
You yourself started with computers and then jumped to gasoline and refineries. Demagoguery in its purest form.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich

Tell me the brand of American TV.

Vizio, Olevia ...

Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich

You yourself started with computers and then jumped to gasoline and refineries. Demagoguery in its purest form.

This is your nickname - demagoguery and do not meddle with me with empty questions ...

[Vadim237]

"So what? Russia is the largest oil producer, gasoline in Russia is more expensive than in Kazakhstan, and the efficiency of refineries" - Probably because some people do not know that there are no taxes on export gasoline and diesel fuel in other countries that there are in Russia.
"The depth of oil refining in Russia is 74%, in Europe - 85%, in the USA - 96%." What a "big" inefficiency of our refineries in comparison with the rest.

[poquello]

Quote: APASUS

Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich

in twenty years we are all Russians, in the sense that we will drive Chinese cars.

We will, and I do not even doubt it. It was neglect to remember the Korean cars, but now .........

and now Mercedes is being assembled in Russia

[Normann]

And what does the military theme have to do with civilian vehicles?

[Asad]

Well, for example, that our Ministry of Defense buys Chinese SUVs.

[Vadim237]

Hawal - still that rubbish, how many spontaneous combustion did they have during this winter in Russia?

[Asad]

So I did not praise this manufacturer.

[prior]

Classic: theory without practice is dead.

[Light]

Another confirmation of the fact that to create a good modern engine is not khukhra-mukhra, you need colossal experience, time and level in related industries. Even the mattress mats had problems with the resource of the blades of the pigvin engine.

[Kushka]

Quote: Bright

Another confirmation of the fact that to create a good modern engine is not khukhra-mukhra, you need colossal experience, time and level in related industries. Even the mattress mats had problems with the resource of the blades of the pigvin engine.

And they took Berlin (in the sense of Germany) along with these mattress mats, and also lost to Brown. Stalin had to take his Germany together with the Chinese, they would have been running on the moon for 50 years.

[Light]

In what the Anglo-Saxons cannot be denied, so in the ability to hurry up in time.

[Kushka]

In general, it's amazing how, despite the fact that the USSR got it and despite the fact that the USA grabbed
in Germany, the USSR left them with a nose and with the first satellite, and the first man in space
and from the ISS. The Chinese had to be content with what the USSR later wanted to share,
and after Russia. well, its gray matter.
The result is on the face - the same path took half a century - ISS, lunar rover.
But with a plane of the 5th generation they are already head to head.

[Terran ghost]

The USSR left them with a nose and with the first satellite, and the first man in space

Nothing really surprising. With an overwhelming superiority in strategic bomber aviation over any potential enemy at that time, the United States was in no hurry with its missile program.

[Kushka]

Here you are right, apparently, they did not have force majeure about this,
perhaps a matter of prestige. And the first is one, and the first is the second - clean
nominally, because the difference is some weeks, or there are months - nothing
serious, but nothing at all for history. But the USSR for such a trifle
was ready to throw huge resources into the breakthrough, under the slogan "catch up and
overtake. "We will always remember what payment the country had to pay
for the development of the first nuclear submarines and space exploration.

[Terran ghost]

apparently, they did not have force majeure about this

That's just the point. And no, the problem is that from the point of view of the government of the USSR in those historical realities (the so-called "Cold War") it was, alas, not a trifle.
Let me explain in more detail - the US Air Force strategic bombers - B-50 Superfortress, B-36 Peacemaker and at that time the newest B-52 Stratofortress stationed at air bases in Great Britain and Europe were potentially capable of reaching any target in the European part The USSR, they - stationed at bases in Japan - are potentially capable of achieving any goal on the territory of the Asian part of the USSR. At the same time, the air defense of the territory of the United States itself at that time was provided not only by fighters, but also by Nike-Ajax air defense systems.
In those conditions, the development of the missile program for the Soviet Union was a question of the possibility of a retaliatory strike in a hypothetical case of a military attack.
The launch of the first artificial Earth satellite (Sputnik-1) by the Soviet Union was not only a matter of prestige (which is undoubtedly because it emphasized the achievements of Soviet science and engineering school), but an act demonstrating that the USSR had a rocket capable of delivering a thermonuclear charge to territory of a potential enemy.

[Kushka]

Why then did everything "boil" (the Cuban missile crisis) then, when
it was rocket weapons that moved directly to the borders -
them in Turkey, ours in Cuba? It turns out that before that, we are not very
and they were afraid of theirs, such terrible bombers, and they were our missiles,
"capable of delivering a thermonuclear charge to the territory of n ...."

[Terran ghost]

It turns out that before that, we were not really afraid of theirs, such terrible bombers

Not certainly in that way. Just to do something with the Stratofortress airbases in Japan, or even more so Great Britain, the government of the USSR was virtually powerless.
In the case of Cuba and the US government, everything was exactly the opposite - from a purely military point of view, the task of "inflicting a preventive and disarming strike" on the missile positions of the USSR Armed Forces on the island was completely solvable for the US Armed Forces at that moment.

[Borisych]

You can’t go to great lengths, you don’t have to suffer. And do not point out that the Chinese flew to the moon, for us this is already a long past. We can talk about the Red Guards, who slowed down everything, but we had our own corn children. And, most importantly, when you watch programs about Chinese life, do not forget about Peking alleys, streets and quiet courtyards, where one and a half Chinese live on one square meter.
Technologies are not given from the sky, they are stolen. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's just bad, I'm talking about the Chinese.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: Borisych

And no need to nod that the Chinese flew to the moon, for us this is already a long past ... Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's just bad, I'm talking about the Chinese.

I. A. Krylov has a fable "The Hermit and the Bear"

Although the service is dear to us when needed,
But not everyone knows how to tackle it:
God forbid s com »contact!
Helpful "d k "is more dangerous than the enemy.

Let's remember the An-2, which is the old past of the USSR and its Russian counterpart, which hell knows when it will fly ...

[Kushka]

How long can you use this cheap excuse.
Yes, there are still places on the planet where cannibalism flourishes.
Does this justify anyone if his children walk 20 km to school?
Why do we need Beijing lanes? Let's take a look at yours-
and we will see in each Chinese cars and other equipment, up to
giant dock cranes on a dry dock under construction for "Kuzi"
("lane" is good, isn't it?)

[Normann]

But here we are talking about the most modern engines, and not about lanes)

[Kushka]

Quote: Sands Career General

Well, the fact that the Chinese are already, at the very least, can make aircraft engines, already compels respect. There are few countries in the world that know how to make them..

This quote says it all. That's exactly what I wanted to say.
Another thing is that they had to catch up - catch up in everything -
in space, in aviation, in the automotive industry, in shipbuilding
and simply in improving the well-being of their people, in arranging their
a huge country (have you seen their heavenly road?).
And their successes are amazing. AND FOR THE LASTING LEADERSHIP IN THE SAME AIRCRAFT
other countries no longer looks so unattainable.

[Terran ghost]

but we had our corn children

Um .. under NS Khrushchev as a space program of the USSR, for example, achieved its most outstanding and world-famous achievements.

Technologies are not given from the sky, they are stolen.

You understand what's the matter. If you ONLY copy other people's technologies without doing development yourself, you are lagging behind the more advanced participants in the "technology race". Well, sometimes you also need to be able to copy.

[Sergei Khukharev]

Something not harsh is written in the article. How can coating a combustion chamber increase fuel consumption? The coating can absorb fuel only up to saturation, but the coating cannot eat it. Even cotton wool cannot gain moisture more saturation. The problem is not the coating, but the inefficient combustion of the fuel. The Chinese engineers were unable to optimize the combustion process in the engine. But no doubt sooner or later the Chinese will solve this problem, because they are one of the foremost outstanding nations on Earth.

[Castro Ruiz]

The bravado of the Chinese with engines graduated. No one will steal / copy. The West and RU do not sell high tech engines to them. And this is in a poriadok.

[Dkuznecov]

I would not scold the Chinese - they are inquisitive guys.
They buy up other people's patents on the vine,
and they themselves galloped far ahead.

So technological leadership is just a matter of time.

[Vadim237]

1.4 million patents - and not a single breakthrough, mostly consumer goods.

[FRoman1984]

Collecting iPhones, cars, sewing rags, riveting electronics under a license is not the same thing as making an engine for the 5th generation. They will not have an engine either in 5 or in 10 years, judging by what is written.