A submachine gun for military pilots of the Russian Aerospace Forces

Updated PPK-20, frame from video kalashnikov.media

The military conflict in Syria showed the vulnerability of downed pilots in a ground collision with the enemy. After the death of Russian pilots Oleg Peshkov and Roman Filippov, the Kalashnikov was tasked with developing a modern compact automatic weapon, which could equip the pilots of the Russian Aerospace Forces.

The novelty is a version of the new Kalashnikov PPK-20 submachine gun, modified in accordance with the instructions of the Minister of Defense Sergei Shoigu. The Russian Defense Minister gave his recommendations on the finalization of weapons in the framework of the previous international military-technical forum "Army-2020". As noted in the Kalashnikov company, the modified version of the PPK-20 is suitable for placement in the NAZ - a portable emergency reserve of military pilots.

In addition to the new version of the PPK-20 submachine gun, which does not yet have an official name (unofficial designation PPK-20U), Russian military pilots were offered to include in the NAZ kit another Kalashnikov development - the Lebedev PLC compact pistol. In addition to a submachine gun and a PLC, a new unloading vest with a set of defensive grenades may also be included in the wearable emergency stock of military pilots.

Evolution of the Vityaz submachine gun

The novelty of the Izhevsk gunsmiths is a further evolution of the Vityaz submachine gun.

The group of designer Viktor Mikhailovich Kalashnikov, the son of Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov, was responsible for the development of the weapon. Viktor Kalashnikov developed a line of submachine guns "Bizon-2" for various ammunition, including the version "Bizon-2-01" chambered for 9x19 mm. This development was later used as a base for the Vityaz submachine gun, which was equipped with a box magazine for 30 rounds.

In 2005, the modified Vityaz-SN submachine gun was officially adopted by the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs. Currently, this model of small arms is in service with special forces of various Russian law enforcement agencies, including the FSB and the FSO.

PPK-20 submachine gun shown by Kalashnikov in 2020, photo: kalashnikovgroup.ru

It was on the basis of the Vityaz-SN model in Izhevsk that the PPK-20 model (Kalashnikov submachine gun of the 2020 model) was developed. In the course of the work, the designers took into account all the comments that were revealed during the operation of the serial "Vityaz-SN". The novelty was named PPK-20 to perpetuate the memory of the designer Viktor Kalashnikov, who passed away in 2018.

The main difference between the Vityaz-SN and the usual Vityaz was the use of the AK-105 Kalashnikov assault rifle as the basis, rather than the AKS-74U model. Subsequently, the Vityaz-SN submachine gun served as the basis for the creation of a new PPK-20 submachine gun, which was first presented to the public at the Army-2020 forum. The development of this model of firearms was carried out as part of the Vityaz-MO development work.

The new model of a submachine gun, according to Kalashnikov, will be able to interest not only military pilots. It would be too expensive to make weapons exclusively for one category of military personnel. The updated version of the PPK-20, due to its high firepower and compactness, can be suitable for arming special forces soldiers, as well as crews of various combat vehicles and support units in need of automatic small-sized weapons.

Kalashnikov believes that the weapon has good export potential and will be competitive in the PDW (Personal defense weapon) niche - personal self-defense weapons. The effectiveness of weapons for soldiers of special forces is determined by the possibility of using them in confined spaces, in transport, as well as in dense urban areas and in crowded environments.

What is known about the new submachine gun for the Russian Aerospace Forces

Kalashnikov has already talked about some of the features of the new submachine gun for military pilots. The length of the model with the stock folded will be only 41 centimeters. This was achieved, among other things, by reducing the length of the barrel of the weapon. Experts note that the model received a shortened barrel.

Updated PPK-20 in tactical body kit, frame from video kalashnikov.media

Experts refer to the important features of the model as the fact that the butt, adjustable in length, folds to the right side of the weapon. This has a positive effect on compactness. The size of the weapon is reduced in width, for the model that will be included in the NAZ, this is very important. This is achieved due to the fact that when the butt is folded to the right, the loading handle does not go beyond the dimensions of the butt.

Together with the new submachine gun, 7N21 cartridges can be used. This is a 9x19 mm cartridge equipped with a steel core bullet. The bullet weighs 5,4 grams. At a distance of 55 meters, a similar bullet is able to pierce a 4 mm steel plate.

Kalashnikov claims that the tests carried out at the enterprise showed that the use of this cartridge with an initial bullet velocity of approximately 470 m / s ensures penetration of body armor of protection class 3A (according to the NIJ standard). The range of a direct shot from a weapon is 360 meters, the aiming range is up to 200 meters.

The submachine gun is equipped with box magazines for 30 rounds, the total length of the weapon is 700 mm. The weight of the model without cartridges appears to be in the range of 2,5 to 3 kg. The model received a translator of fire modes, which at the same time also performs the function of a fuse. The manufacturer emphasizes that the new mechanism allows you to comfortably use the weapon using both the right and left hands. In this case, all manipulations with the weapon can be carried out without taking your hand off the pistol grip.

The model is initially equipped with Picatinny rail, both on the forend and on top of the receiver. There is a single long Picatinny rail on the cover of the receiver and on the forend, which allows you to place more additional equipment. The sights of the model have also undergone changes. The updated PPK-20 received a new front sight and a diopter rear sight similar to the AK-12. In addition, the aiming line has been lengthened, which should positively affect the accuracy of the model.

The decision to turn on the Kalashnikov submachine gun at the NAZ was made

Russian publications, including TASS, previously reported that the new version of the PPK-20 had passed state tests. This was also reported by the official website of the Kalashnikov group of companies.

According to Denis Fisenko, who holds the post of Kalashnikov's director for special projects, the weapon has been successfully tested and adapted to the portable emergency stock of military pilots, it can be placed in the cockpit of combat aircraft.

The updated PPK-20 without a silent firing device, a frame from the video Lazarev Tactical

Kalashnikov notes that the tests carried out in Akhtubinsk at the state flight test center of the Russian Defense Ministry confirmed the possibility of placing a new version of the PPK-20 in the pilot's ejection seat.

At the beginning of September 2021, information appeared in Rossiyskaya Gazeta that the command of the Russian Aerospace Forces decided to include a new version of the PPK-20 submachine gun under the 9x19 mm Parabellum cartridge in the NAZ of military pilots.

It is reported that the submachine gun will be part of a wearable emergency stock with an unfastened magazine, a folded stock and without devices for silent and flameless shooting to reduce the length of the weapon. Stores and a device for silent and flameless firing can be placed in the body unloading of a pilot of a new type. Quick-detachable silent firing device.

It is expected that the NAZ with the Kalashnikov submachine gun will be given to pilots of fighter, bomber and assault aviation... Pilots must take such a kit with them on combat missions. In the event of a bailout and landing in enemy-occupied territory, the NAZ must help the pilots save their lives.

In addition to weapons, a knife, a first-aid kit, a food ration, communications equipment and other items that are necessary for the survival and autonomous existence of a soldier for some time are traditionally included in a wearable emergency stock.

Comments

[Uncle lee]

NAZ must help the pilots save lives.

And this is the most important thing!

[Ross xnumx]

Quote from Uncle Lee

And this is the most important thing!

It is right.
==========
Here's one thing that's not clear:

In addition to the submachine gun and PLC, in the wearable emergency stock of military pilots may enter and a new unloading vest with a set of defensive grenades.

And before that, weren't there grenades or their number was increased in the new set?
==========

 Show / Hide text

In such cases, I always remember the death of Roman Filippov. Everlasting memory.

[tasha]

Yuri Vasilievich, the pilots will correct anything if anything. Normally, grenades are not included in the NAZ and in general the packing is in the chair. The vest has been tested for two years now. There were articles on VO.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: tasha

Normally, grenades are not included in the NAZ

They enter ... do not enter ... But the pilots take grenades with them ...

[vladcub]

Peshkov had a grenade

[Hypertension]

Quote: vladcub

Peshkov had a grenade

Maybe Filipov?

[YOUR]

Are you talking about the main thing?
In that case, the question is ??????????????
PPK-20 is just a small upgrade of PP-19-01, it concerns ergonomics. Why was it not previously put into service with the pilots?
How many times have our designers come out with a proposal to equip pilots with submachine guns. So during the Chechen war, the AEK-919K was transferred to the armament of helicopter pilots. The reviews are the most wonderful. There were attempts with the PP-90M, again by.
Cause??? Maybe due to the fact that they were not produced by the Kalashshnikov concern?

[ProkletyiPirat]

Quote: YOUR

Why was it not previously put into service with the pilots?
How many times have our designers come out with a proposal to equip pilots with submachine guns.

Yes, because the "concern AK" pushed through the adoption into service, oily in the right places, and from the point of view of land combat, all these dances are not necessary and even harmful, because "a pilot on land turns into an infantryman, and therefore: he needs weapons and ammunition like an infantryman"and not PCs from ersatz machines. The voiced (highlighted) problem is quite solvable, only the decision of neither the Defense Ministry, nor the General Staff of the Aerospace Forces, nor the pilots is needed, because none of them will pay for innovations in this area, and without monetization neither analysts-inventors, nor developers-designers-designers, nor manufacturers will even scratch themselves.That's how it turns out that pilots blurt out ersatz, and corporations-concerns grease customers, only in the end we get a wagon from the famous fable with a swan, a crayfish and a pike ,

[Barberry25]

the pilot on the ground is not an infantryman, but a downed pilot, therefore he must avoid clashes

[ProkletyiPirat]

What you described is a Hollywood Rambo, in a real war there is no such thing because:
The first thing the infantryman is taught is "not to climb the embrasure with a saber", in the sense: to fall quickly, to crawl a lot, to dribble deeply, and it is better to dive into shelters, but let artillery, armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles, tanks, etc., be engaged in the destruction of the enemy, because the pilot is an infantryman, and, like any infantryman, his task is not to let the enemy approach him and / or not to give him the opportunity to pass the firing sector.

[Barberry25]

oh yes, only an infantryman will be wounded and shell-shocked, without armor, without more experience in fighting, in fact, any recruit after the KMB will be more prepared than an experienced pilot, so forget about the "pilot on the ground, infantryman", it does not work like that, it will not be able to effectively hit targets and "press the enemy 400 meters," so he needs a weapon with MAXIMUM ammunition that is MAXIMUM comfortable for him, and not a scanty Kalashnikov, under an automatic cartridge with 120 rounds, which he will shoot once or twice in a couple of minutes of battle. And for a PP, he will be able to take not 4, but 8 stores in the same size as 4 stores for AKSU, and this is already a higher chance of survival, although I already wrote above that it is necessary to abandon the machine and PP in NAZ in favor of an automatic a pistol with a collimator and a silencer according to the Kashtan / Buk / PP-2000 scheme with the placement of a larger ammunition for the AP, grenades and MIB Insert

[ProkletyiPirat]

You obviously did not bother to read carefully, let alone understand what I have written, I believe that the pilot should be armed with full-fledged weapons, and not ersatz with shortcuts.
I.e, the surviving pilot must have: a full-fledged assault rifle + grenade launcher + PBBS; a large stock of cartridges, rifle and hand grenades; full-fledged armor, RPM and backpack; and everything else that a modern infantryman has.
psAll described above is quite realizable, but to chew it all, I see no point.
pps On this I terminate the conversation with you due to the lack of constructive dialogue.

[Barberry25]

your comment is just like in a joke: with this mouth and honey sip .. below is a photo of the NAZ installation, so you measure your wishes with reality, otherwise you proved with your comments that you cannot offer constructive ideas

[ProkletyiPirat]

okay, since you are so "constructive", I propose to go to a lawyer together, you will pay for an international patent for a useful model, from me analytical calculations with schemes for laying a complete rescue kit (ammunition + weapons + ammo + food + tent + raft boat) ...

[Barberry25]

analytical calculations are "you need to shove a bunch of everything into a small box?" The whole problem is that you WANT, but do not offer something adequately ... HAS ALREADY shown that it is IMPOSSIBLE to put in a machine gun + 4 stores, and if you also fall asleep with the grenade launcher, then you will need to give up a couple of stores and for what? For the sake of a pair of FOGs on the vest? kg grenade launcher in view of its complete uselessness in the future? An engagement for the pilot in most cases is fatal and only dense fire can save him and something that can force the search group to slow down the search, and this requires a lot of ammunition to spend 1 magazine without fear on suppression and anti-personnel mines, so instead of any machine guns with grenade launchers, it is better to place an automatic pistol with a large ammunition capacity, grenades and MIBs ... By the way, it is immediately clear that you do not "fumble" a little in NAZs, because the automatic machine, even on current grounds, is laid INSTEAD of a boat, and you want to not only shove a full-fledged automatic rifle with a grenade launcher, but also a boat with a tent ...

[ProkletyiPirat]

I, for a long time, have no wishlist about this, I just have rough analytical notes on this topic with options for describing what is needed and how to achieve it, and I tried to monetize such an innovation, but I could not find any options for monetization, so I spat and removed all this to your personal archive. That is why I offered you the "constructive instead of chatter" you voiced.

What's the problem? in the VKS RF, if I lie about the existence of a solution for this problem, then I will pay you a fine according to the clauses of the contract.

Quote: Barberry25

and for this you need a lot of cartridges, so that you can spend 1 magazine on suppression and anti-personnel mines without fear

In the decision I voiced, the pilot gets a full-fledged infantry backpack, and the fact that he stuffs VOGs, MONKs, food and / or something else there is already better known to the pilot.

[Barberry25]

those. you have nothing but "wishes on paper" ... and yes, it's funny ... you want to cut the dough out of the blue, they say, "I'll draw you on paper as I want, but the fact that no one realizes this is not me concerns ".. And yes .. as I said, you are not in the teeth with your foot in the subject, you do not even know what an IIB is ... in general .. go, learn the mathematical part

[ProkletyiPirat]

nuuuu, like this always, first someone starts to hype "for constructiveness and refusal to chatter", but when it comes to "constructive response and refusal to talk", they immediately hide in the bushes, and slogans begin in the style of "you are all UG, and I am dartanian ".

I already wrote TWO TIMES above about a lawyer and preliminary agreement for R&D \ R&D \ R&D with fines in the case of "delusional unrealizable fantasies" etc. and according to this agreement(additional points of which you are also asked to make) I will get at least something if, and only then, when all of this is implemented and put into working parts, well, if all this is just a fantasy, then I will not get anything. But you apparently do not understand the nuances and stages of organizing such processes and, like many of our warriors, sincerely believe that innovation grows from top to bottom.

[Barberry25]

those. I understand correctly, if you screw up, you won't get anything, but if something suddenly burns out, then you owe all the money?) and then let's include in the contract the fact that you personally compensate for the cost of ALL developments ... well, there from the strength of 10-15 million will come out .. well, maybe 50 ... but these are trifles?

[ProkletyiPirat]

In the sense of "me", uh, you somehow misunderstood what I wrote above, here I am, I came up with an innovation, I can:
1) I can find and hire a 3D modeller to design my idea (analytical calculation) in the most simple, accessible and consistent form (in the form of 3D diagrams and 3D animations). This will allow the Ministry of Defense, General Staff of the Aerospace Forces and military pilots to formulate TTZ for specialized research institutes \ PKB.
question: where, how and how will this modeller and I get paid for our work?
2) I can, in addition to the first point, find and hire an engineer to complete design documentation (not to be confused with design and technological).
question: where, how and how will I and this modeller and engineer get paid for our labor?

There should be the following steps (3 \ 4 \ N) with other documentation, but I will omit them, because all you offer is a "patent", to which I will answer that "a patent protects the manufacturer, only the manufacturer, and no one except the manufacturer" that is Neither me nor the group of developers I have assembled will be protected by it, and that is why, understanding this moment, neither I nor other people (and such an innovation must have been invented more than once before me) did not do it in the past .. This is what I wrote about above.

Well, returning to "give constructive without blah-blah-blah", what's the problem, let's conclude a revised contract, neither I nor for a patent need any money from you, but in the clause of the contract we will add a clause that you are obliged to knock out money for R&D, and not to me, and not to myself, but to the specialized research institute / PKB, but if you cannot break through the entire bureaucratic machine, then you will pay the fine, and again not to me, but to the fund to help veterans, or children with disabilities. And yes, you will do all the work for free, you offered me exactly that.

[Barberry25]

those. blah blah blah ... in the style of "here you can not pay" .. and if your calculations turn out to be stupid .. what will you pay?

[ProkletyiPirat]

what will be indicated in the contract, it actually is for this purpose. This is standard international practice in projects where patents, mergers and acquisitions do not work, and everywhere and always these are individually drawn up contracts. For example, in the example I voiced above, "1" third parties are introduced into such an agreement in the roles of "judge", "outsourcer-distributor" and "investor-customer (beneficiary)", and let's say they prescribe the last payment of either a one-time grant or a percentage of the benefit if the "judge" confirms the truth and feasibility of the analytical calculations.

psBut you will probably continue the holivar again, and therefore I leave this verbiage on a simple but not understood thought from the first post "any whim for your money, that's just neither the Ministry of Defense, nor the General Staff of the Aerospace Forces, nor the pilots to search, check, implement and implement the solution of their problems do not want to pay. "

[Barberry25]

that's the joke ... you attribute buns to yourself if suddenly something, and you hang fines on me, and to my question, but HOW exactly will we punish YOU if your calculations are complete nonsense, you keep silent ... so hang noodles for someone something else ...

[Wildcat]

"In the decision I voiced, the pilot receives a full-fledged infantry backpack, and the fact that he stuffs VOGs, MONKs, food and / or something else there is already better known to the pilot."
A complete infantry backpack? VOGs and MONKs in NAZ?
Everything is much worse than I thought.

[Barberry25]

the main thing is that the pilot decides what he needs .. not experts on the basis of research, but the pilot .. 5 points

[Wildcat]

Without science, the army is nowhere. Nothing should be left to chance. For now, I will "monetize" the idea: "ammunition + weapons + ammo + food + tent + raft boat". And do not forget the mine, this is important:

[Barberry25]

and the second plane, which will carry it all ..

[ProkletyiPirat]

Quote: Wildcat

A complete infantry backpack? VOGs and MONKs in NAZ?
Everything is much worse than I thought.

The technical and logical mindset is immediately visible (this is sarcasm), and so that is the wonderful words "armored trunks", "reinforced bags", "packing under the armor" and then, but you apparently have neither the culture of discussion, nor politeness, nor even droplets of imagination in order to understand in advance such a banal thing. Holivar stop

[YOUR]

What is there to oil. The former (?) Owner of the Kalashnikov concern A. Kryvoruchko, becomes a lieutenant general without serving a single day in the Army, Deputy Ministry of Defense in the Sun of patent-licensing, inventive and rationalization work.
That's the whole solution.
Another co-owner of the Kalashnikov concern is Tereshchenko, who I hope I don't need to tell. Here's a clue why everything is through ...

[Mister X]

Pilot of the Soviet Mi-24 helicopter.
War in Afghanistan, 1980s.

[Mister X]

Pilots can be armed with a PP-2000 submachine gun instead of the AKS-74U machine gun

[Barberry25]

generally a rather stupid idea to produce entities .. uh. the pilot will be in the APS bib, and in the NAZ PP, then it is more optimal instead of the APS and PP to leave the pistol-type PP, a la Kashtan, PP-2000 or Buk (I just like it visually). Then the pilot will immediately be ready, and NAZ is better to put extra. BK in the form of 4-6 magazines with cartridges + grenades and minefields.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

If I understand correctly - APS for 9x18PM, and PP - for 9x19? Or if there is a PP, APS will not be issued?

[Barberry25]

yes, the APS is chambered for the Makarov cartridge, so at the moment the placement of the PPK-20 and APS in the unloading game, in theory, they can shove a Lebedev or Yarygin pistol, but the pilot is unlikely to reload stores separately ..

[Alex777]

Quote: Barberry25

... the pilot comes out will be in the APS bib

There will be no APS. Forget about it. There will be a PLC.
https://tvzvezda.ru/news/2021821145-fBKxO.html

[Barberry25]

yes, I heard that they want to shove something new, but what exactly did not remember, thanks, but here the speech is still the same ... unification of the ammunition will not help much, since the pilot will not be engaged in reloading the stores ... so it is still more optimal push a single automatic pistol into the unloading

[Alex777]

It is alleged that the unloading will be a PLC and a PPK-20 body kit (sight, silencer and ammunition unit). The chair will contain the PPK-20 itself.
They write that the pilots themselves chose him on tests at the beginning of the year.

When using the 7N21 cartridge, an initial bullet speed of 470 m / s and penetration of a 3A class body armor are provided.

They also write that with such a cartridge you can aim aiming at 250 m.
And then there is 7H31.
Performance characteristics:
Chuck length, mm
29,6
Bullet length, mm
18
Sleeve length, mm
19,15
Chuck weight, g
8,14-8,52
Bullet weight, g
4,10-4,28
Core weight, g
2,2-2,3
Bullet shirt
aluminum
The mass of powder charge, g
0,56
Bullet speed, m / s
535-570
Steel core hardness
63 HRC
Shooting accuracy at 25 m (r50),
cm ≤ 3
Disruptive action
8 mm steel sheet at a distance of 20 m 100%

[Barberry25]

Well, I wrote above about the fact that we need an automatic pistol for 7,62TT ... it sews like a sheet of paper with an old cartridge with a steel core, and if modern cartridges are made, then 3 meters will cause trouble ...

[Alex777]

TT was removed from service due to the low stopping effect of the bullet.

The Soviet officer shot through the fascist, and the fascist ran up and stabbed the Soviet officer.

After the war, they were replaced by Makarov.
Shl Now the time has changed due to body armor.
Deprecated and 9x18. But there will be no return to 7,62.
All over the world, 9 mm is recognized as the minimum army caliber.
It has an optimal balance of damaging properties, weight and size.
I shot at the MO dash with a Mauser. I didn't like it at all.

[Barberry25]

Well, for stopping action there were forbidden expansive bullets .. when they were banned, the soldiers on cartridges with a steel core tore off the top layer of lead .. and now we are looking at modern armor-piercing cartridges. As you can see, armor-piercing cores pierce armor, but a lead shirt does not, which ultimately creates an expansive effect ... Ideally, equip pilots with PP-2000, since they have an initial speed of 500 m / s with armor-piercing cartridges ... It's scary to imagine , what if we adapt both the PP and the 7n31 technology to the 7,62 TT caliber.

[Alex777]

It is important not to penetrate the enemy, it is important to stop / kill.
In high-speed small-caliber automatic / machine-gun bullets, the damaging effect is provided by pulsation leading to serious damage to internal organs.
In pistol loops, the defeat happens differently.
At one time, I had the opportunity to try everything that is written about in interesting books.
He lived in the States and went to the shooting range every 2 months.
And from N&K Mk-23 45 ACP fired, and from PSG-1, and from 357/44 Magnum, and Desert Eagle 44 Magnum.
Now it's too lazy to raise the details. Here's a look:
http://oruzheika.blogspot.com/2014/01/effektivnost-porazheniya-celi.html

[Barberry25]

I don't think that the wounded fighter will rush to pursue the pilot further, but wants to go to the rear, which means that you need to add 1-2 more fighters to the evacuation ... won't take

[Alex777]

Quote: Barberry25

I do not think that the wounded soldier will rush to pursue the pilot further

This is all true, but nonetheless individual.
Do you know how soldiers were chosen in Sparta?
The hand was cut and the candidate had to look at his own blood flow.
There are 2 congenital basic reactions: blushes or turns pale.
They took the first to the warriors.
PS I like PPK-20 (2021). The question is how a good solution will be implemented. You can spoil everything.
ZYY I'm waiting for the PPK-20 in 9x21. In general, there will be a bomb. IMHO.

[Barberry25]

well, I see no reason to produce entities ... it's a pity that the idea of ​​AP / PP in unloading was just not considered ... nevertheless, the bone of thinking makes itself felt

[Alex777]

The UDAV pistol can use the whole range of cartridges of the SP-10/11/12 family, that is, for it there are already cartridges with a heat-strengthened steel core (armor-piercing), expansive, tracer, low-ricochet, with a rubber bullet. Especially for UDAV, two newest 9x21 mm ammunition were developed - subsonic for use with PBS and with increased armor-piercing characteristics - the most powerful one in the range today.
The new cartridge - index 7N42 - has a core that looks like a chisel. Powerful cartridges with armor-piercing and expansive bullets were specially created for UDAV, which is the main advantage of the new pistol, clearly and clearly positioning the pistol "for special work". The 9x21 cartridge of increased power allows penetrating second-class body armor made of modern multi-layer Kevlar materials or light titanium alloys. The target destruction range is up to 100 m.

“Aim calmly, don't pull the hook,” laughs Kozlov. - For our pistol, 25 meters is not a distance. The fall of a bullet at 100 meters is only ten to fifteen centimeters, you can work with a direct shot. Well-trained people fall from it into a growth target at a distance. 300 meters: take the sight on the body higher - and you're done. "

And PPK-20 will be able to continue to be even more accurate.
https://ria.ru/20190423/1552844130.html

[Barberry25]

that's the point ... we cram TWO types of weapons into the limited volumes of the NAZ and the vest ... it might cost to leave ONE, but place more ammo and mines?

[Alex777]

we cram TWO types of weapons into the limited volumes of the NAZ and the vest ...

The set is close to ideal.
Can bring down targets in bulletproof vests at a distance, can conduct silent shooting. Who else can do this at a given size?

it might be worth leaving ONE, but placing more ammo and mines?

I imagine you flying in an airplane with mines in the cockpit ...

[Barberry25]

those. to fly with grenades-norms, but with mines with the same fuse circuit-not norms? I would test PPK-20 and PP-2000 at the place of the warrior ..

[Alex777]

I would test the PPK-20 and PP-2000 on the spot.

[Barberry25]

the fact is that on the PPK you can take 8 magazines with 30 rounds each + a pistol with 4 magazines, but the PP-2000 you can take 1 magazine with 20 and 11 with 44

[Alex777]

Quote: Barberry25

the fact is that on the PPK you can take 8 magazines with 30 rounds each + a pistol with 4 magazines, but the PP-2000 you can take 1 magazine with 20 and 11 with 44

How did you think so?
Forgotten the muffler ...
The pilot's task is to wait for the rescuers.

[Barberry25]

4 shops in a vest and 8 in NAZ ... you have to wait, what if there is a fight? It's better to have cartridges than not to have

[Wertgan]

What is this ideal? It is clear that any submachine gun will lose in range of fire to any machine gun. Our poor pilot will simply be first wounded from a distance of 300 m, and then captured. In the world, while trying to get food, he will not be able to fill up a roe deer at the same 300 m range ...

[Alex777]

Quote: WertGan

What is this ideal? It is clear that any submachine gun will lose in range of fire to any machine gun.

Excuse me, of course, but the pilot is more important than accuracy, not range. The stock of cartridges is limited. And try to get exactly on your 200 m from AKSU.

[psiho117]

Quote: Alex777

I'm waiting for PPK-20 in 9x21. In general, the bomb will be

Will not. These are the cartridges of the Central Research Institute of Tochmash - therefore, KK will go to shit, but will not allow such heresy.
Unfortunately, this is Selyavi

[Alex777]

It will be sad if you are right.

[Vladimir_2U]

competitive in the PDW (Personal defense weapon) niche - personal self-defense weapons.

What the hell is competitiveness with a pistol cartridge and submachine gun dimensions ?! They added a poor secondary sample ...

[tasha]

with pistol cartridge and automatic dimensions

Can you tell me the length of the HK MP5 used by the US Air Force?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: tasha

HK MP5

Do you remember the cartridge used in the MP5?

[tasha]

Strange, I thought you knew. 9x19 Parabellum. Explain your thought ...

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: tasha

Strange, I thought you knew. 9x19 Parabellum. Explain your thought ...

And your idea is incomprehensible to me, to compare the ancient PP with the "newest" and both have the same cartridge and similar dimensions as it is not very ...

[tasha]

similar dimensions are somehow not very ...

"Somehow not very" - more appropriate when assessing the quality of comments and commentators
Dimensions - they are expressed in numbers.

[Vladimir_2U]

Oh yes, and the year of adoption.

[tasha]

What is the connection?
By the way, you can see the characteristics of the promising B&T APC9K, which is currently being tested.
Oh yes, what does it mean: "automatic dimensions"? At what point do submachine gun dimensions, for example, become machine-gun, and machine-gun dimensions cannon?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: tasha

What is the connection?
By the way, you can see the characteristics of the promising B&T APC9K, which is currently being tested.

And what is the connection of the third PP with the domestic and German ones? What else are you going to add? For example, I can remember PP-90, this is already an IDW classic.

Quote: tasha

Oh yes, what does it mean: "automatic dimensions"? At what point do submachine gun dimensions, for example, become machine-gun, and machine-gun dimensions cannon?

What kind of verbiage? PP and machine gun (assault rifle) do not distinguish? Let me remind you of the AKS-74U.

[tasha]

What kind of verbiage?

Nicely distorted. That is, I write this: "pistol cartridge and automatic dimensions" ... Well, well .. Good luck.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: tasha

Nicely distorted.

So, to begin with, indicate what kind of "American pilots" used the HK MP5?

Quote: tasha

That is, I write this: "pistol cartridge and automatic dimensions"

What's wrong with automatic dimensions? AKS-74 U 490 mm folded. Tavor MTAR-21 in full length 59 cm. Versus 41 cm folded without a silencer.

[Hike]

"Tavor MTAR-21 in full length 59 cm. Versus 41 cm folded without a silencer."
A world-class weapons expert is immediately visible. MTAR-21 bullpup, it cannot be folded in any way and its length is always 59 cm.

There is an option with built-in silencer X95S - which has a barrel length of 275 mm (versus the standard 330)

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Rando

"Tavor MTAR-21 in full length 59 cm. против 41 cm folded without muffler. "

And what is wrong, I contrasted Tavor with 59 cm PPK-20 with its 41 cm, excuse me if I didn’t chew, although the word AGAINST, as it were, should make you think.

[Hike]

Apparently Russian is not your native language for you.
In your message, not a word about PPK-20: "AKS-74 U 490 mm folded. Tavor МTAR-21 in full length 59 cm versus 41 cm folded without a silencer."But the meaning is that you folded the MTAP and twisted the built-in muffler and your MTAP dimensions were reduced to 41 cm.
Also in your previous posts there was about the PP-90 (which was never a classic and proved to be a very rude and impractical weapon with a bunch of sharp corners and a long preparation time), and it refers to PDW (Personal defense weapon), what kind of beast is this IDW I do not know.
About 41cm PPK-20 is only in the article, to which you mentioned the twisted muffler is not clear.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Rando

Apparently Russian is not your native language for you.

Quite dear, but there is no one to edit the comments except myself, and time is not always abundant, so I beg your pardon.

Quote: Rando

there were messages about the PP-90 (which was never a classic and proved to be a very rude and impractical weapon with a bunch of sharp corners and a long preparation time), and it refers to PDW (Personal defense weapon), what kind of an IDW such beast I do not know ...

R-90, of course, which is FN, I didn't even remember the PP-90 clamshell, by the way it has nothing to do with PDW.
IDW - now you can't confuse the letter, won't you work as a proofreader for me?

Quote: Rando

About 41cm PPK-20 is only in the article, to which you mentioned the twisted muffler is not clear

Because with a muffler, the length will be even more, don't you think? And the muffler here, besides, that in the PP, under the usual pistol cartridge, as an NAZ weapon, at least some sense appears only if noiselessness is ensured. By the way, indeed, the length of 63 cm is mainly mentioned, although these 63 cm are not observed by eye in the photo. so my opponent flew by.

[psiho117]

Quote: Rando

Option with built-in X95S silencer available

There is an option with a built-in silencer X95S
This is a 9x19 SMG, not an assault rifle / carbine ...

what kind of beast is IDW, I don’t know

Despite the fact that Vladimir was simply sealed, this term also has a place to be, in the foreign press: Individual defense weapon - the same PDV, only in profile

[Hike]

Quote: psiho117

Option with built-in X95S silencer available
This is a 9x19 SMG, not an assault rifle / carbine ...

I have not written the opposite anywhere.
Moreover, AKS-74U under 5.45x39 and PPK-20 under 9x19 (catch the analogy?)

Quote: psiho117

Despite the fact that Vladimir was simply sealed, this term also has a place to be, in the foreign press: Individual defense weapon - the same PDV, only in profile

You are wrong here. Everywhere in the overseas press PDW.
IDW refers exclusively to the Parker Hale PDW prototype - and it is more of an advertising slogan:

This prototype version was marketed through Ealovega's company, Bushman Ltd., as the IDW (Individual Defense Weapon)

[Catfish]

By the way, you can see the characteristics of the promising B&T APC9K,

APC9K is an ultra-compact submachine gun of the Swiss company B&T (Brügger & Thomet). The weapon can be powered from standard magazines and magazines with increased capacity of 9x19 mm Glock pistols. The APC9K weighs less than 2,5kg. Barrel length - 175 mm, total weapon length - from 385 to 597 mm. The declared rate of fire is over 1000 rounds per minute, the effective range is 100 m. APC stands for Advanced Police Carbine and is also available in calibers .40 S&W (APC40), 10 mm Auto (APC10) and .45 ACP (APC45).

[Vladimir_2U]

I didn't even answer my opponent about this spit (pistol barrel), it is obvious that this is a police weapon.

[YOUR]

The US pilot's self-defense weapon is called the GAU-5 / A "survival rifle".
The base of the CAR-15 Commando carbine. In NAZ it is disassembled into 2 parts. Assembled in 10 seconds. I took it out of NAZ, connected it until it clicks, and that's it. Cartridge 5.56 * 45, i.e. standard submachine gun ammunition. Weight 2.44 kg.

[tasha]

Vladimir, outstripped. Thanks for the comment. It should be added that the NAZ is located in the compartment of the ejection seat. With you in case of anything, the pilot of a bomber or fighter - M9 (?).
Air Force Helicopters and Special Forces - HK MP5, if nothing has changed.

[Avior]

MP5 is a weapon of special forces, not pilots. Whether the Air Force or the Air Defense.
For pilots, you need a self-defense weapon, the MP5 does not apply to them.
Well, or a full-fledged rifle with a quickly dark barrel, as it turned out to be crammed into the Americans, but they themselves position it as a weapon of self-defense
GAU-5A Aircrew Self Defense Weapon (ASDW).

[YOUR]

The fact that NK MP5 is in service with helicopter pilots is worth not hearing or reading. The fact that the special forces are used is yes, but what is in the army ...
With this, as it were, but don't care. That is with them, it is with us.
You read such debates, and we have no one else to arm besides the pilots, you know how the tankmen are armed, and they are fighting a general military battle and they have much more probability of being hit. The armament is the same good old PM. For as it is considered a tank is armor, it is a collective weapon and they will be covered in case of faq. The armament of the crew of the tank is 3 PM and 1 AK SU or AK-74M, which is in a special holder in the tank, as well as a pouch with cartridges, which differs from the usual one on a harness over the shoulder and with 4 pockets for magazines. The machine gun is enough for the one who can when the emergency exit from the tank. The pistol is in the inner pocket of a tank jacket or overalls. This is the one for whom the appropriate shooter is most needed. But they don't stutter about this at all ..........

[tasha]

The fact that NK MP5 is in service with helicopter pilots is worth not hearing or reading

A shortened MP5K was issued for a while, but then it was abandoned. Have you seen the movie "Black Hawk Down"? It really shows the MP5A3.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: tasha

A shortened MP5K was issued for a while

What is it, why was it PPK-20 that I was offered to compare with MP5, and not with this shortening ?! That is why I called it secondary, because even modifications of the ancient PP are more compact than the "newest" model.

[tasha]

That is why I called it secondary, because even modifications of the ancient PP are more compact than the "newest" model.

You just wrote whatever was haphazard, without hesitation. And now you are trying to pull something by the ears. Make a comparison with a PP of a similar purpose, give numbers, draw competent conclusions - I will read your comment with great pleasure. Until then, have a nice day ...

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: tasha

You just wrote whatever was haphazard, without hesitation. And now you are trying to pull something by the ears.

Well, if you don't understand the elementary, then I'll chew: PPK-20 has the same cartridge and comparable dimensions with the ancient (66 g) submachine gun, even in Russia there are more compact or more powerful samples in comparable dimensions.

Quote: tasha

Make a comparison with a PP of a similar purpose, give the numbers

The PP of a pistol cartridge as a weapon of the NAZ of a combat pilot is an obvious stupidity, so I will just give you truly modern PP:

PP-2000 submachine gun - Caliber: 9x19mm Luger / Para and 9x19 7N31
Weight: about 1.4 kg Length (stock closed / open): 340/582 mm

ST Kinetics CPW Submachine Gun - Caliber: 9x19mm Luger / Parabellum. Weight: 1.5KG
Length: (stock closed / open) 350/500 mm

Here are the real PDWs
Heckler - Koch HK MP7A1 - Caliber: 4.6 × 30mm Weight: 1.5 kg Length (stock closed / open): 340/540 mm

FN P90 TR submachine gun - Caliber: 5.7 × 28mm SS190 Weight: 2.54 kg empty; 3 kg with magazine and 50 rounds Length: 500 mm

Quote: tasha

make the right conclusions

PP for a pistol cartridge as a weapon of the NAZ combat pilot is an obvious stupidity.

[tasha]

Very good.
"PPK-20 has the same cartridge and comparable dimensions with the ancient (66) submachine gun." - "pistol cartridge and machine gun dimensions"
"really modern PP" ... "of this spit (pistol barrel), it is obviously a police weapon."
Please, somehow put your thoughts in order ...

"PP under a pistol cartridge as a weapon of a combat pilot's NAZ is obvious nonsense." - Stupidity is not stupidity, but an alternative? Or not stupidity somewhere in the chair, or a gun or a PP. Which option is more acceptable for the cartridges produced in our country?

Why PPK-20, not PP-2000. The question is more than interesting and needs to be addressed to specialists. I think that PPK-20 is simpler, cheaper, fault-tolerant and ergonomic.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: tasha

really modern PP "..." of this spit (pistol barrel), it is obvious that this is a police weapon ". request
Please, somehow put your thoughts in order ...

That, when there is nothing to answer, you start to tear quotes from different comments and somehow stitch them together? "Spit" is actually a specific sample of APC9K, where is this butt on my short list?

Quote: tasha

Stupidity is not stupidity, but an alternative?

An alternative to what, the power of an intermediate cartridge or at least a high-speed cartridge for PDW requirements? PP under the pistol cartridge as a weapon of the NAZ is the fruit of the manufacturer's lobbying and the incompetence of the adopter. The simplest analysis that has been carried out for a long time: you need a sufficiently armor-piercing, light and high-speed (flatness) cartridge, if there is no special one, then 5,45 * 39 is suitable, in extreme cases a pistol 9 * 21 (Gyurza).

Quote: tasha

I think that PPK-20 is simpler, cheaper, fault-tolerant and ergonomic.

Is this your expert opinion? How did you shape it? From the bulldozer? Why would it be cheaper, because with the Kalashnikov, the unification of the PPK-20 is actually only in appearance. Why would the reliability be lower and the simplicity higher, because one cartridge, one automation scheme. Why would the ergonomics be higher, because the butts provide comparable rigidity, and the weight of the PP-2000 is less. Both are not suitable for a military NAZ, but the PP-2000 is at least more compact and lighter.

[tasha]

I quote myself: 1. "Why PPK-20, and not PP-2000. The question is more than interesting and it needs to be addressed to specialists. "
2 "I think that PPK-20 is simpler, cheaper, fault-tolerant and ergonomic." I think so, based on the information that I own.

[bunta]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

PP for a pistol cartridge as a weapon of the NAZ combat pilot is an obvious stupidity.

criminal stupidity!

[vl903]

Quote: YOUR

The fact that NK MP5 is in service with helicopter pilots is worth not hearing or reading. The fact that the special forces are used is yes, but what is in the army ...
With this, as it were, but don't care. That is with them, it is with us.
You read such debates, and we have no one else to arm besides the pilots, you know how the tankmen are armed, and they are fighting a general military battle and they have much more probability of being hit. The armament is the same good old PM. For as it is considered a tank is armor, it is a collective weapon and they will be covered in case of faq. The armament of the crew of the tank is 3 PM and 1 AK SU or AK-74M, which is in a special holder in the tank, as well as a pouch with cartridges, which differs from the usual one on a harness over the shoulder and with 4 pockets for magazines. The machine gun is enough for the one who can when the emergency exit from the tank. The pistol is in the inner pocket of a tank jacket or overalls. This is the one for whom the appropriate shooter is most needed. But they don't stutter about this at all ..........

I agree.
but again the terms of reference for tankers should be different.
again, tankers must also ask what their weight restrictions, dimensions, etc.
they probably would have approached an am17, AK with a 300mm barrel. and they must be outside. maybe with grenade launchers?

[Avior]

It is logical for tankers to have a compact PP with a magazine in the pistol grip with APS weight and dimensions

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Avior

It is logical for tankers to have a compact PP with a magazine in the pistol grip with APS weight and dimensions

Dimensions, of course, but not a cartridge, because the NIB infantry is stronger than tankers.

[Avior]

Yes, that's the problem. But it's still better than with a pistol.

[vladcub]

Bison was supposed to be used for tank crews. This is what Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov himself said in the 90s.

[Avior]

This is a complete weapon

Here he is in the stack

But assembled

If the Kalashnikov's barrel could also be easily separated and the weight reduced with dimensions, then it would also have to be put in the NAZ as a self-defense weapon. But it doesn't work ...

[YOUR]

So PPK-20 is not a Kalashnikov.

[Avior]

Of course not
There should be a self-defense weapon, this is not PPK-20

[vl903]

it turns out that there is no assignment and funding from the Ministry of Defense

[Wildcat]

In order to use the GAU-5 / A, you need to: find a box, then assemble it, then charge it. All this under the approving glances of the faces who shot down the aircraft (maybe they also liked LEGO in childhood).
A more reasonable option is either a bullpup such as an English carbine, or if we are to take the wearable and gossip - MP7 or PP90. All with optics, of course.

But there is no doubt that the glorious KK and its owners will push through what is - a sawn AK for a pistol cartridge.

[ProkletyiPirat]

Quote: Wildcat

In order to use the GAU-5 / A, you need to: find a box, then assemble it, then charge it.

why look for it if it is either pulled over you or is hanging under you on a bind? yes, and your application on the topic "to shoot while descending on a parachute" is generally delirium and delirium drives, even our Airborne Forces and Special Operations Forces do not suffer from such garbage, because it is extremely problematic to implement in practice, and even if you can develop such a skill, then you will still land faster than hit the enemy,

[Wildcat]

You did not understand what I wrote. You don't understand what you are writing about.
Do you think it is worth explaining all this to you? Honestly, I just don't want to engage in meaningless explanations or Internet holivar.

[ProkletyiPirat]

I think it's worth it, at least I'm ready for a constructive dialogue and I'm interested in this topic, although I myself am a supporter of a completely different solution to the initial negative.

Based on your post, I have formulated two predicate rappers describing the negative (harm / problem / disadvantage):
1) [-] After landing, you need to look for an emergency gang, assemble the GAU-5 / A into a combat state, and this all takes a lot of time, during which the pilot will be killed.
2) [-] the pilot cannot fire from the GAU-5 / A during the parachute descent
In my opinion: both benchmark predicates are false, the second is false because of the inconvenience of more or less aimed shooting and the short time of the descent process, and the first, because of the short time of the process, to "pull the tied cable" in order to drag the bag towards you. emergency gang.

At the same time, there is a certain "group-set-set of combat situations" when the pilot lands directly on the enemy fortified area, directly on the firing positions of the enemy infantry, and personally I believe that the size of this set is minimal, the probability of getting into such a situation tends to a minimum, and even if the pilot ended up in it, no emergency kits will help him, therefore, this set of situations can be neglected.
ps This is what is actually wrong in my reasoning, well, in your opinion.

[Wildcat]

Pf .... predicate-benchmark-negative / harm / problem / disadvantage ...
Let's start with your first post.
1) "in general delirium on delirium and delirium drives" - we will return to this later ...
2) "even our Airborne Forces and MTR do not suffer from such garbage" - they do not suffer, but enjoy: "To make a parachute jump with shooting from the AKS-74 in the air, the machine gun prepares for landing as follows: they take out one magazine from the bag and adjoin it to the machine gun . For better fixation, as well as to protect the receiver cover from loss, they are tied with a cord passing in front of the bolt handle. The length of the automatic belt is set as follows: holding the belt by the middle, the weapon is released. It should take a horizontal position, and the elbow should go inside without touching the weapon.The bag for the magazines is put on the waist belt on the left.
The paratrooper puts on the main parachute, fastens the leg loops of the harness, then takes the assault rifle, puts it on the neck strap, places the barrel in the free compartment of the bag for magazines, and fills the pistol grip under the main harness of the harness in the area of ​​the right shoulder. To prevent the displacement of the machine gun, the pistol grip is tied to the main girth strap with a ShKhB-125 (ShKP-150) cord through a buckle for GK-30. The ends of the cord are tied with an easy-to-untie knot (Figure 10.5).
The automatic belt is tucked under the collar of the uniform and the chest strap of the harness is fastened over it. After that, a reserve parachute is attached.
In the air for shooting, it is necessary to untie the cord that secures the pistol grip, remove it from under the main grip, and the barrel from the magazine bag. Then the machine gun is removed from the fuse, the bolt carrier is twitched and the machine gunner can open fire.
At the end of the shooting, it is necessary to put the machine gun on the fuse and prepare it for a safe landing. To do this, the barrel of the assault rifle is placed under the left, the butt plate - under the right free end of the intermediate suspension system of the reserve parachute, and the magazine is between the parachutist's body and the reserve parachute (Fig. 10.6) "
3) "why look for her if she is either stuck on you or hanging under you on a bind" - and Filipov's example will not tell you anything, unfortunately.

[Wildcat]

Continuation of the first part.
By the way, I would like to know where I still have, "and your application on the topic" to shoot while descending on a parachute "is generally delirium and deliriously drives, even our Airborne Forces and MTR do not suffer from such garbage, because it is extremely problematic to implement in practice, and even if you can develop such a skill, you will still land faster than hit the enemy "?

[Wildcat]

Let's start now with the second post, more "pseudoscientific", but also violating the rules of normal discussion, since you continue to ascribe to your opponent those arguments that he did not give, you yourself argue with them.
For some reason, you stubbornly believe that my opinion is: "You also need to shoot from a parachute in the air, and everything that does not shoot from a parachute in the air is bad." At the same time, all this happens in a situation when "the pilot lands directly on the enemy fortified area, right on the firing positions of the enemy infantry."
This is not the case (see the original post).

"the pilot cannot fire from the GAU-5 / A in the process of descending on a parachute" - well, let him collect and fire in advance, if necessary, because, as aviation science tells us, "if you want to live, you will not get up so much."

(JOKE)

"After landing, you need to look for an emergency gang, assemble the GAU-5 / A into a combat state, and this all takes a lot of time, during which the pilot will have time to be killed" - yeah, it seems it is starting to come ...

"This is what is actually wrong in my reasoning, well, in your opinion." - Yes, everything is wrong, from ignorance of mat. part, the improper use of pseudo-scientific terms before using the rhetorical technique "I myself will come up with the thesis and I will VICT / RUN".
In general, as one scientist said, "this is generally delirium on delirium and delirium" (I promised that we will return to this ...)

[ProkletyiPirat]

sorry, I expected an explanation from you, but I saw only trolling

Quote: Wildcat

you continue to ascribe to your opponent those arguments that he did not give, and you yourself argue with them.

1) I described how I understood what you wrote, while I minimized information garbage in the form of references, spontaneous emotional verbiage, etc., this is a completely normal method of discussion used so that the opponent can point out to me where I was wrong or what I misunderstood, that is, where in my chain of thoughts the error lurks (from the point of view of the opponent). ...
2) in fact, you yourself use the tools of the trolling-holivar
2.1) distort what I have written trying to divert the discussion aside or reduce it to a holivar shit, while ignoring specific theses
2.2) litter the discussion with information rubbish, did not even bother to avoid unnecessary citations (you just had to give a link to "https://pandia.ru/text/80/245/40056.php", and not rivet copy-paste)
2.3) get personal by starting with aplomb and ambition emotionally humiliating communication in order to try to make yourself smarter than those around you in general and me in particular

but back to context
3) in fact, you still have not explained to me what is the problem of finding a styling (emergency gang)? why look for it then? she is already next to you, another thing is that while the pilot is getting okay (he will come to his senses after stress and stress from a maneuvering battle, an accident, emergency escape to the side and ejection), then he will already need to land, because combat ejection most often occurs as you can later and below in order to go as far as possible from the accident site and the initial point of the enemy's location.

4) why is your copy-paste from the statutes / instructions / manuals, all these documents are not worth anything if there are no teachings, you are show me a video or photo with the airborne forces exercises where they work out full-time firing while descending by parachute I have not seen this and have not even heard of this. But perhaps you are a paratrooper and can prove the existence of such trainings / exercises / workouts.

[Wildcat]

"why is your copy-paste from the statutes / manuals / manuals, all these documents are not worth anything"
"litter the discussion with informational rubbish"
"prostrate-emotional verbiage"
"where in my chain of thought"



Pffff ...
Where have the lovely-looking "predicate-rapper-negative / harm / problem / disadvantage" gone? ...

"..beginning with aplomb and ambition emotionally humiliating communication in order to try to make yourself smarter than those around you in general and me in particular" - as they say, even a broken clock shows the correct time 2 times a day.
As for you, I am ready to agree with you to some extent, I look smarter (by the way, self-criticism and curiosity are good, I praise). But this is not "emotionally humiliating", "not to expose yourself" and not even my merit, but an adequate perception of your text. What do you order to do if "this is generally delirium on delirium and delirium drives"?
As for the other forum participants, I strongly disagree with you, there is much more experienced and smarter than me.


Of course, it was immediately clear that it was not worth explaining anything to you, but your sincere curiosity should have been satisfied, compared to other holivar lovers, you are not hopeless (by the way, I am not grammatical , but still try to "master the Russian language").

As an interlocutor, you become uninteresting, a three-fold misunderstanding of the text is bad: "in fact, you have not explained to me what is the problem of finding the styling (emergency gang)?"
and you are already distributing commands, although you can do everything yourself: "you just show me a video or a photo with the airborne forces exercises where they practice regular firing while simultaneously descending by parachute."

Let you listen to yourself: "I minimized information waste" and we will stop communicating.

[Barberry25]

ultralight assault rifles have one drawback ... very mediocre combat accuracy. The fact that the Americans were able to put the Colt there is cool .. the problem is, how much REALLY ammunition the pilot can take with him? 120 rounds in 4 magazines ... moreover, the effective firing range is declared at the same 200 meters. as here it is suggested that no one will shoot at "500 meters", which means the pilot needs to increase firepower, it is more optimal to use armor-piercing cartridges 9 * 19, in general, new armor-piercing 7,62 TT and provide the pilot with an automatic pistol with a folding stock, a silencer and a collimator sight , moreover, the weapon will be immediately unloaded instead of the APS, and an additional ammo, grenades and engineering barriers will already be placed in the NAZ

[Wildcat]

By the way, IMHO, neither our pilots, nor foreigners have grenades in the NAZ, but they are obtained "by air force": ".... the more cartridges I have, the longer I will stay alive. I will not have time drink, I could starve until I was safe.In my bag I had four spare magazines for the pistol, four thirty-shot 5,56 magazines for my SA80 carbine and an extra 120-round bandolier - all I could get my hands on.
I also stole two L2 fragmentation grenades left over from the first round and two smoke grenades - a red and a green one. It was strictly forbidden to carry grenades on board, for fear that they might work, but I knew my weapon and was happy that I had them. "

[Wertgan]

They seem to have an ordinary rifle, only a folding one, not an MP5

[riwas]

I think the last modification "Vintorez" would be better suited for this purpose. It can be dropped in disassembled form, since quick assembly is not a problem.

[Okolotochny]

Then it's better "Val", it can shoot in bursts.

[vl903]

Quote: Okolotochny

Then it's better "Val", it can shoot in bursts.

the difference with ppk20 is only in the silence of the shot.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: vl903

the difference with ppk20 is only in the silence of the shot.

Armor-piercing is a cut higher.

[vl903]

I agree.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Quote: vl903

the difference with ppk20 is only in the silence of the shot.

Armor-piercing is a cut higher.

but you need to get there. and there, for sure, the flatness and time of arrival of the bullet are not the same as 5,45 (((

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: vl903

but you need to get there. and there, for sure, the flatness and time of arrival of the bullet are not the same as 5,45 (((

Yeah, and the cartridge is noticeably heavier, and this is a limited ammo. In general, I do not really understand the need for silent shooting for NAZ weapons, because the flyer does not need to take off the sentries. The presence is certainly good, but it is unreasonable to turn it into a fetish.

[Barberry25]

But there is a chance of meeting with the soldiers of the enemy search group, and here it is better to quietly give a turn than to burn your position for 3 kilometers around.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Barberry25

But there is a chance of meeting with the soldiers of the enemy search group, and here it is better to quietly give a turn than to burn your position for 3 kilometers around.

Yes, there is such a possibility, but the probability that ALL fighters of the enemy group will lie under one queue is zero, and then the level of infantry training decides, and, of course, the search engines are many times better than the pilot.
True, there is a possibility of running into a conditional "mushroom picker" and that he would not pass the pilot, the noiselessness will come in handy. The only option I think.

[Barberry25]

Well, no matter how ALL the fighters of the group do not go in a dense formation, they are forced to disperse, that is. the situation is quite real when the formation will be stretched and there will be 50 meters between the fighters of the search detachment, or even a single patrol / guard, there is such a probability, But if he "aggregates" the entire search group, then the whole BC will not help him to fight a group or a whole department .. the question is that in some cases there is a factor of surprise and then it is better to have a silencer than not to have ..

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Barberry25

the situation is quite real when the formation will be stretched and there will be 50 meters between the fighters of the search detachment, or even a single patrol / guard in general, there is such a probability

On this there is a ROLLER once, moving in the mind of each other two.

Quote: Barberry25

to have a muffler than not to have ..

Unfortunately, armor-piercing is achieved either by the mass of a bullet or by speed, the mass requires shooting skills inaccessible to the pilot (poor flatness and less ammo), speed excludes noiselessness.

[Barberry25]

the roll call is not every minute, and you still need to see in the forest ... so it's better to have the opportunity than not to have it. you can have a couple of stores with silent cartridges. And yes ... why suddenly 12 stores for AP is not enough, but 4 stores for machine, the very thing?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Barberry25

roll call is not every minute, and in the forest you still need to see

The terrain is not limited by the forest, according to the results of the roll call, the search for the unresponsive person will begin and you will have to shoot back anyway.

Quote: Barberry25

you can have a couple of magazines with silent cartridges

Of course, it is better to have than not to have, but silent cartridges require special weapons, in Russia for sure, but, I repeat, it requires skills and has drawbacks.

Quote: Barberry25

And yes .. why suddenly 12 stores for the AP is not enough, but 4 stores for the machine is the thing?

AP is that? If the automatic pistol, where did you see the 12 magazines in the kit? And let me remind you not even of the NIB funds, but of the trees in the same forest. For pistols. bullets are already a serious obstacle.

[Barberry25]

Well, this is if you sit over a corpse and dance with a tambourine, but if in case of contact and destruction you go into a loophole, then while they look, while they think, he will already leave, and if he also puts a mine next to the corpse, then the desire to chase will diminish ..- special weapons in this caliber are not needed - you need a quick-detachable silencer and the principle - fell to the ground - there is no enemy nearby - install a silencer and get out of there. About 12 stores-3 stores + a silencer in a vest + 1 in the AP itself + 8 instead of automatic stores in NAZ, instead of a machine gun, place grenades and MIBs .. By "and branches", for automatic bullets they are also an obstacle, as it were, it is different - if there is an armed clash, then suppression fire is fired, and there will already be a psychological effect, there will be not a single soldier should go to his full height for shooting, so that he will fall down or will jump in dashes .. I repeat again, you need to carry out test tests .. there is no sense in writing at all.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Barberry25

if he also puts a mine next to the corpse

This is already the rut of some pilot to teach mining and make you carry mines on yourself, let alone consider that a pistol is not worse even than a machine gun, but a submachine gun!

[Barberry25]

so the MIB chip is just in the simplest installation .. put it on the ground near the bush, pulled out the pin and run .. in a minute he would get up on the platoon and spread the fishing line .. will take the 300rd class of armor and so, but the armor plate still will not break through, so what's the point of fencing a garden in the form of a pistol + PP or a pistol + machine gun?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Barberry25

so the MIB chip is just in the simplest installation .. put it on the ground near the bush, pulled out the pin and run .. in a minute he would get up on the platoon and spread the fishing line .. will take the 300rd class of armor and so, but the armor plate still will not break through, so what's the point of fencing a garden in the form of a pistol + PP or a pistol + machine gun?

Delirium, in the NAZ, in addition to the stock of food, means of survival and weapons, you also offer engineering ammunition weighing 800 grams. enter? How many pieces? And how far can you throw it like a grenade? And how long will the pilot be taught the tactics of using the IIB, the tactics of actions against search groups? Have you thought about these at least a little?

Quote: Barberry25

About AP to submachine gun and submachine gun, their range is similar - 300 meters .. armor-piercing cartridges will take 3rd class of armor

This is no gate. Name at least one automatic pistol with an aiming range of at least 150 meters, and comparing the armor-piercing at this range of a pistol, a submachine gun and an assault rifle is the level of a kindergarten, because it is obvious to a kindergartener that the larger the caliber, the more armor-piercing the bullet. About the rate of fire so, I hint, can you figure out what.

[Barberry25]

( An hour of theory and an hour of practice) will not make the weather, but the dimensions ... here are you, as you can see, they are slightly larger than an ordinary hand grenade.

[Barberry25]

about the aiming range .. for AKSU the barrel length is 206 mm, for the chestnut 167 mm, for the PPK-20 the barrel length is 223 mm, Not to mention the fact that to upgrade the same Chestnut under a long barrel. About "more powerful cartridge and rate of fire" .. I already wrote about ammunition and about the accuracy of weapons for a more powerful cartridge, I even posted the videos above for comparison, you can see ... 3rd class armor penetration is already provided, but the plate that from Kalash, which cannot be penetrated from AP or PP ..

[Vladimir_2U]

At close range I do not see an AP with an aiming range of at least 150 m. Where is he, eh?

Quote: Barberry25

as I ALREADY pointed out more than once, if you remove the machine gun from NAZ, then there just remains a place for the MIB

What nonsense, because the pilot can be shot down over the steppe and even over the desert, where is he going to place these MIBs? But the machine gun with a range of 300-400 m is universal.

Quote: Barberry25

you will have to learn no more than now, since avoiding pursuit MUST be part of the standard pilot training, so an extra 2 hours (An hour of theory and an hour of practice) will not make the difference,

You seem to be serious ...
So, saboteurs are fiercely learning this for months and have to maintain skills with constant training. Where does a pilot have such an opportunity?

Quote: Barberry25

and the dimensions .. here please, as you can see, they are slightly larger than the usual hand grenade.

Not only did you start rubbing in on the dimensions instead of weight, I actually brought the weight, so you can't compare these dimensions:

In your photo, for some reason, there is no grenade next to the IIB, but there is a store, so we will compare the grenade with it, and what do we see? MIB in 2/3 of the store, and the grenade in 1/3.

Quote: Barberry25

about the aiming range ... for AKSU the barrel length is 206 mm, for the chestnut 167 mm, for the PPK-20 the barrel length is 223 mm

Well, let's take the length of the PPK-20 barrel at 223mm, but here it is only for a model with a length of 630, and the article mentions a model with a length of 410 mm. how so? But these are trifles, to write something about the aiming range, mentioning only the length of the barrel, spit on the power of the cartridge and the relative length of the barrel, to put it mildly, nonsense. So, the AKS-74u cartridge is twice as powerful and the relative length of the barrel is one and a half times longer.

Quote: Barberry25

you can see ... 3rd class armor penetration

And from what distance, eh?

Quote: Barberry25

about the BC and about the accuracy of weapons for a more powerful cartridge, even the videos here are laid out above for comparison, you can see

And that the rollers, visually "Vityaz" throws a little less than the AKS-74u, well, there is a handle for holding a weapon in the presence and a brake compensator in the presence of a conventional forearm and a flame arrester. And there is BK, so at least the weight of the cartridges was asked before "theorizing", and the weight of 9 * 19 is from 9 to 13 g against 10-11 g. 5,45 * 39.
So the PP is against the submachine gun sabotage, and the automatic pistol is so simple idiocy.

[Barberry25]

and? if they find it in the steppe, then the machine gun will not save, Let's start with this, you decide, either remove the cross, or put on your panties, and yes, -120 rounds ... in case of a fight, this is for 3 minutes of battle, and then a mustache, crawl in the direction of the cemetery ... the saboteurs learn not to PLACE mines, but to effectively mask them and strike at the enemy, and the search group is aimed specifically at pursuit, so they do not have time to look around carefully, so the MIB with elements of the Medallion will very much cool the ardor enemy soldiers .. About "weight or size" .. so I will remind once you do not remember, THERE ARE RESTRICTIONS ON THE BACK AND THE VEST ... you can at least become cancer on the mountain and whistle, but there will be no extra space from the word at all, that's why I'm talking about ONE type of weapon in the face of the AP / PP in the vest, the same PP-2000 just has an aiming range of 200 meters, and without a collimator .. About the "weight" with which you are so worn here .. we think that we can 12 magazines with 30 rounds each, i.e. 360 rounds or 4,7 kilos of cartridges or 5,5 with magazines ... of course 4 magazines for AKS will be easier, ONLY a question ... will you shoot back after 5 minutes of battle? "a little bit" is the dispersal of cartridges to METERS at ranges of 200 meters, which automatically indicates the impossibility of aimed firing in bursts .. Or do you really believe in the passport 500 meters of effective burst combat?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Barberry25

About the "weight" with which you are so worried here .. we believe that we will be able to place 12 magazines with 30 rounds each, ie. 360 rounds or 4,7 kilos of rounds or 5,5 with magazines ... of course 4 magazines for AKSU will be easier

You seem to be quite silly, because cartridges 9 * 19 and 5,45 * 39 have approximately the same weight, so why would you allow only 120 pieces to take, and for some reason 360? Yes, even if the volume of stores is counted to 5,45, at least 6 pieces come out, but in fact 7-8. You have specific problems with arithmetic and basic geometry, sorry. And the same problems with comparing the weight of IIB and grenades.

Quote: Barberry25

The saboteurs learn not to PLACE mines, but to effectively camouflage them and strike at the enemy, and the search group is aimed specifically at pursuit, so they do not have time to carefully look around, so the IIB

You are just talking nonsense in general and on the setting of mines in particular. Mining on the retreat is a TYPICAL RDG technique, so why would a search group ignore their opponent's TYPICAL technique? And why would a pilot be able to lay mines no worse than the RDG fighters, he has episodic training.

And again there are problems with the IIB, it is 1,5 times heavier and 2 times more voluminous than grenades, what did you write about the limited weight and volume? Really not able to compare the sizes in the picture?

Quote: Barberry25

the same PP-2000 just has an aimed firing range of 200 meters, and without a collimator ..... ..... 200 meters, which automatically indicates the impossibility of aimed firing in bursts ... Or do you really believe in the passport 500 meters effective battle in bursts?

Are you being clever about two hundred meters, but tell me about the PP-2000, does it hit two hundred meters in bursts? Lonely, with a sickly spread, and with a bullet that has lost energy.
That's all your submachine gun, even if you put any armor-piercing cartridge on it, physics cannot be fooled. But this is true for the pistol cartridge, the PDW cartridge changes matters, it is a pity that Russia does not have it. In the meantime, he is not in Russia, the case is decided by 5,45 * 39.

As for the video, you yourself do not see the PP dance in the hands of the shooter?

[Barberry25]

because if we read CAREFULLY we are not talking about the mass, but what about the VOLUME of the NAZ and the Vest, and if the automatic stores do not corny fit into the vest, because. there is now a pistol and shops for it, then in NAZ there are ONLY 4 shops and a machine gun ... Therefore, you can jump and jump, but now there is AKSU in NAZ and 4 shops for it, And not "in fact 7-8" ... Well you can of course show now a photo of a fighter pilot in Syria who has 8 stores in NAZ .. I’ll even wait ... About "what will they think about mines." an order to seize the pilot, so if they "look at their feet" .. it is very interesting, especially in connection with the principle of the IIB's operation, they will go sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, peepers will not help .. About "twice as much" .. this is of course 5 points) I brought you a photo of the MIB .. But if it's difficult for you, then please- "Overall dimensions: - diameter - 61,5 mm; - height - 170 mm;" and RGD-5 -117 mm by 58 mm in diameter .. so there is no "twice as much", there is an extra 6 cm - this is a cup holder, not to mention the fact that there are options for the Medallion .. And there it is even more compact.

Nonsense about "PP-2000 / bursts and armor-piercing" I will not even comment ... because you do not know about PP-2000, not about 7N31, the only funny thing is that you, in fact, talking about 5,7 mm cartridges forget that they have characteristics of 7n31 for penetration ... in general, I see no point in arguing until you show a photo of a fighter pilot in Syria with NAZ, in which there are 8 stores to the Kalash

[Vladimir_2U]

[/ Center]

Quote: Barberry25

if automatic shops do not fit into a vest corny

The fact that the vest can be modified into your head will probably not come already.

Quote: Barberry25

Therefore, you can jump and jump, but now there is AKSU in NAZ and 4 stores for it

And APS with five magazines for 20 rounds in the vest and in the vest, you can and should add magazines to the machine, but it seems beyond your understanding.

Quote: Barberry25

About "twice as large" .. this is of course 5 points) I brought you a photo of the MIB .. But since it's difficult for you, please - "Overall dimensions: - diameter - 61,5 mm; - height - 170 mm;" and RGD-5 -117 mm by 58 mm in diameter .. so there is no "twice as much", there is an extra 6 cm is a cup holder

So I am writing that you have specific problems with measures and volumes, and since you are not able to compare two photos, then and with many others.

Hey, this MIB of yours (God grant her health) is incomplete a little less than a store, and your "extra 6 cm of a cup holder" is the essence of ammunition, without which it is a simple overweight hand grenade, and there is also a head there. And RGD - 5 has a length of 117 mm with a fuse, which actually twists out and the weight is 2,5 times less. You write nonsense without the slightest understanding of the subject.

Quote: Barberry25

PP-2000, not about 7N31, the only funny thing is that, in fact, when you talk about 5,7 mm cartridges, you forget that they have 7n31 penetration characteristics

The cartridge and the bullet, so you know, besides penetration, have other characteristics, such as initial speed and flatness and speed drop at a distance. But it looks like a penetration, by the way, at what distance? eyes and mind were obscured.

[Center] Your level is simply amazing, on the basis of a photo where there are a maximum of five (one in the APS) magazines of 20 cartridges each, you ask me for a photo of the stacking of eight magazines and an assault rifle?
For example, I don’t see, for example, not even a photo, but a sketch of the stacking of TWELVE magazines for THIRTY cartridges and some kind of PP, because the vest will be occupied with a pistol and magazines for it.
And your reasoning about one single AP / PP is nonsense, if only because the pilot is left with ONE weapon.

[Barberry25]

5 points, it remains to understand where to shove more stores .. by the way, the photo will be where as you say "in fact they fly with 8 stores"? They did not know the volumes either. Seeing this at all is not yours, as well as with memory, do not be friends, because I ALREADY wrote that it is possible to remove the APS, which in the current conditions, due to the absence of the butt and the Makarovsky-DNO cartridge, and that it is possible to place PP like P-2000 or Chestnut, which allows you to get a weapon with similar combat performance characteristics at 200 meters and a larger stock, since it will immediately have 1 magazine in the PP + 3 in unloading along with a silencer and EIGHT magazines will be in NAZA instead of 4 magazines from the Kalash to the PP in NAZ, because 2 stores from the PP correspond in size to 1 store from the Kalash, and instead of AKSU, THREE MIBs fit in size. And yes, for a snack. About "oh horror, the pilot will have one weapon, one PP-2000", and what is the point of having TWO types of weapons with SOUCH limited ammo? ? to pick up a pistol and bang-bang to do it? Isn't it funny yourself? And yes ... a photo of NAZA pilot from Syria with 4 magazines from Kalash to the studio ...

[Vladimir_2U]

What, flood? Pestle for 150 meters of sighting range and did not remember?

[Barberry25]

flooding here you are repeating questions .. or really memory problems .. so I remind-PP-2000, so I'm waiting for a photo of our NAZ from Syria with 8 submachine guns ... I will ignore all other questions .. Come on, Vova, do not merge with the topics are so stupid .. prove at least once your words with facts

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Barberry25

so remind-PP-2000

Even from the name you can see Barbic (I think you can be called that, because we switched to you) that this is not a pistol, but a submachine gun. And your stupidity about the only weapon is stupidity and remains.

Quote: Barberry25

Vova, do not merge with the topic so stupid .. prove at least once your words with facts

You merged with the pistol, you merged with the dimensions of the grenade and the MIB, you shamefully merged with the weight and characteristics of the cartridges, but you demand something from me.

And I will remind you of my REAL words:

Quote: Vladimir_2U

You seem to be quite silly, because cartridges 9 * 19 and 5,45 * 39 have approximately the same weight, so why would you allow only 120 pieces to take, and for some reason 360? Yes, even if the volume of stores is counted to 5,45, at least 6 pieces come out, but in fact 7-8

Where did you see Syria and the current NAZ?

So your absurd demand is cheap pumping out.


It can be seen that the store is 5,45 in three, not four times more than the store 9 * 19, and where I was looking!

AKS-74u has 4 magazines in the FACTORY set, name at least one submachine gun or submachine gun, but even a pistol that has TWELVE magazines in the kit.
You don't even need a photo.

However, you can not answer, for the wretched excuse about the photo, your mmm is quite clear ... incompetence.

[Barberry25]

those. as I understand, apart from squeals, there will be no answer to the question posed? Everything is clear, Little Johnny merged with the topic .. free .. go teach materiel)

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Barberry25

those. as I understand, apart from squeals, there will be no answer to the question posed? Everything is clear, Little Johnny merged with the topic .. free .. go teach materiel)

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And I will remind you of my REAL words:
Quote: Vladimir_2U
You seem to be quite silly, because cartridges 9 * 19 and 5,45 * 39 have approximately the same weight, so why would you allow only 120 pieces to take, and for some reason 360? Yes, even if the volume of stores is counted to 5,45, at least 6 pieces come out, but in fact 7-8
Where did you see Syria and the current NAZ?

So your absurd demand is cheap pumping out.

[Vladimir_2U]

Cheap otkorya-yachka-ah-ah!

[Barberry25]

I agree, your cheap excuse is an attempt to repeat the same questions ... in general, I see no point in talking with someone who writes heresy

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Barberry25

I agree, your cheap excuse is an attempt to repeat the same questions ... in general, I see no point in talking with someone who writes heresy

Hey, Barbic, let's repeat my words, which I have to prove, not your wishes, but my words. And then, after all, your pumping out is at the level of a schoolchild with Internet access paid by the mother.

Tie my words to your claim, be a man.

[Barberry25]

lol, Little Johnny was offended? So Little Johnny said that:

Yes, even if the volume of stores is counted to 5,45, at least 6 pieces come out, but in fact 7-8

8 stores for AKSU in NAZ .. Well, so there will be a photo of NAZ of a fighter pilot with 8 stores? And then all the countries of the world cannot give birth to how to shove 8 stores, but you came up with ... Well, I'm waiting for a photo .. prove your words .. .be a man

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Barberry25

8 stores for AKSU in NAZ .. Well, so there will be a photo of NAZ of a fighter pilot with 8 stores? And then all the countries of the world cannot give birth to how to shove 8 stores, but you came up with ... Well, I'm waiting for a photo .. prove your words .. .be a man

You are frankly wretched in your blatant lies:

Quote: Vladimir_2U

You seem to be quite silly, because cartridges 9 * 19 and 5,45 * 39 have approximately the same weight, so why would you allow only 120 pieces to take, and for some reason 360? Yes, even if the volume of stores is counted to 5,45, at least 6 pieces come out, but in fact 7-8

[Barberry25]

those. Vova has merged ... go Vova, go ...

[Vladimir_2U]

Barbic, with your level of understanding of the text, you naturally have the level of a sixth grader, but I will try to explain, suddenly you are a smart sixth grader: in the paragraph to which, trying to jump off, you are making a complaint comparing the volumes of stores.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

You seem to be quite silly, because cartridges 9 * 19 and 5,45 * 39 have approximately the same weight, so why would you allow only 120 pieces to take, and for some reason 360? Yes, even if the volume is counted then at 5,45 stores at least 6 pieces come out, but in fact 7-8

In the second grade, children are taught to parse the text, did you skip this topic?

And now I poke your nose into your scribbling, YOU JUST shove as many as 12 (TWELVE) stores into the NAZ stacking.

Quote: Barberry25

About 12 stores - 3 stores + a muffler in a vest + 1 in the AP itself + 8 instead of automatic stores in NAZ,

Quote: Barberry25

We believe that we will be able to accommodate 12 magazines with 30 rounds each, i.e. 360 rounds

No, well, in fairness, I note that you were blown away to 8 pieces.

[Barberry25]

and now show me where I wrote about 12 stores in NAZ ... come on ... I'm waiting ... just this phrase Vovochka)

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Barberry25

and now show me where I wrote about 12 stores in NAZ ... come on ... I'm waiting ... just this phrase Vovochka)

Well done Boryusik, at least he caught something! But the vest is also part of the WEARABLE emergency stock and why would automatic magazines not be placed in it, tell me.

[Barberry25]

I didn't catch it, you read other people's comments in Bulgarian .. so go Little Johnny, take a walk.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Barberry25

I didn't catch it, you read other people's comments in Bulgarian .. so go Little Johnny, take a walk.

Once again I poke your nose into the fact that you stubbornly tied the comparison of store volumes to the photo, braid.

[Barberry25]

because we are talking about the volume of NAZ, in fact there is a box in which everything is located, instead of a boat there is AKSU and 4 stores + there is a NAZ-IR vest where APS is located, 4 stores for it, flares, IPP and a pair of grenades. Now the vest with automatic magazines is NOT USED, as it is recognized as ineffective and interfering with flying an airplane / helicopter, so that he understands, Vova, there were shops on the BACK ...

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Barberry25

Currently NOT USED vest with automatic magazines

So where, dear you, you my Boryusik, are you going to pile up shops to the PP, because you counted 12 of them. Where are you going to shove four? Well, the modification of the vest does not come to mind, does it?

[Barberry25]

hmm ... I am writing for the last time ... 1 store from Chestnut or from PP-2000, because they fit the size in the very PPV vest, 3 more stores + 1 silencer in the compartment for pistol magazines, where there are now stores for APS, and also 8 stores instead of 4 stores for AKSU in a NAZ box ... is it really that bad with your memory? came to the conclusion that this does not work, but they used it in the form of a lack of alternatives, which is why NAZ-IR with APS appeared from NAZ-I.In general, if you are not in the subject, then it is better to be silent ...

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Barberry25

1 magazine from Chestnut or from PP-2000, because they fit the size in the very PP in the vest, 3 more magazines + 1 silencer in the compartment for pistol magazines

Yes, my, you again have the same problem as with the MIB, the stores are 20-charger to the APS !!! And you offer 30-chargers, and they are long! Well, pistol cartridges (for the last time I write ) not suitable for PDW (personal defensive weapon) not parabellum for sure.

Quote: Barberry25

because it was in Afghanistan that they tested shops on a vest

I apologize, now about the Afghan conclusions I have a perfectly legitimate reason to inquire about proofs.

[Barberry25]

1) and 30 chargers fit in, and if, oh, horror, let's put 20 chargers in the vest .. and that's all .. about "not suitable for PDV" ... well, yes .. but the fact that 7N31 cartridges cover PDV like a bull does not in the course? .. about "inquiring" .. go and drive in NAZ-I and NAZ-IR and study the question .. to educate the stupid little Vovochka, I will no longer, you leaked the topic .. or screwed up .. walk Vovochka ...

[Vladimir_2U]

[quote = Barberry25] and 30 chargers fit if about horror, well, let's put 20 chargers in the vest, [/ quote]
That's all your speculation under the dog's tail, because the Kalashnikovs fit in the same way.
[quote = Barberry25] the fact that the 7N31 cartridges cover PDV like a bull does not know the sheep [/ quote] At what distance, alo? And this is if lightweight 9 mm bullets hit somewhere at a distance of more than 100 meters. You can't fool physics, you fool.


[quote = Barberry25] go and drive in NAZ-I and NAZ-IR and study the question .. I will no longer educate the stupid Vovochka, you leaked the topic .. or screwed up .. walk Vovochka ... [/ quote] Actually, the refusal of proofs to give there is a sign of a slip-and-willow, so Boriska, but that's not the point, but the fact that in the NAZ-I the pilots themselves put the shops on the back instead of any other pieces.







[/ quote] [quote = Barberry25] it was in Afghanistan that they tested shops on a vest and came to the conclusion that this does not work, but they used it in the form of a lack of alternatives [/ quote]
Your silly inventions, as intended

AKS-74U, four magazines for it, a pair of F-1 "lemon" and RGD-5 grenades. The assault rifle, as the most valuable thing, was hidden on the chest under the parachute harness, not trusting NAZ under the seat, and the rest of the supplies were stuffed into pockets. It was extremely inconvenient to carry them there - the angular iron bulged out from everywhere, quickly tore pockets and strove to fall out. It was not possible to get special unloading vests (combat NAZ-I), even the helicopter pilots lacked them

https://lik-o-dil-es.blogspot.com/2018/03/aviacionnyj-nosimyj-avarijnyj-zapas-naz.html

[Barberry25]

you have such a hysteria that you can no longer do a normal citation) And yes ... and now show me a fighter pilot who will put AKSU under the parachute system ... and also take it into the cockpit, and not in the NAZ) you are helicopter pilots and do not confuse fighters) in the topic you are not a tooth with your foot ... finally one article was born to read ... all Vovochka, I see no reason to waste time on you ...

[Vladimir_2U]

What are you Boryusik complained about, huh?

[vl903]

Quote: riwas

I think the last modification "Vintorez" would be better suited for this purpose. It can be dropped in disassembled form, since quick assembly is not a problem.

effective range as in PPK20 - no more than 200m

[Barberry25]

the effective range of ANY weapon from the NAZ-200 meters because it is calculated from the range of a direct shot and work through a mechanical sight

[vl903]

Quote: Barberry25

the effective range of ANY weapon from the NAZ-200 meters because it is calculated from the range of a direct shot and work through a mechanical sight

this is what we are talking about:
Can the Russian Federation find the money and competence to make a special barrel for pilots and is it necessary?
Is there any point in spending 3-4kg of the weight of the NAZ on a weapon with an effective range of up to 200m, poor flatness and dimensions of the AK74U?
if there is a more compact PP for the same cartridge.
if up to 200m then under 5,45 the flatness is better, the cartridge weighs the same.
and most importantly, we all understand that it is not possible to make an ideal weapon for all cases, but it is possible to try to make a weapon suitable for most cases.
the most suitable cartridge is 5,45 - light weight, good flatness and accuracy.
under the cartridge, you can create a barrel weighing 3-4 kg, equipped with a good sight, etc. with superior
AK74 efficiency. if you make it titanium duralumin, then you can build something from the NAZ into the barrel body to save weight.

[Barberry25]

both AKSU and PP-200 will have a direct shot at 2000 meters, here the point is different - the pilot cannot take more than 4 magazines for such an assault rifle from the word in general, but he will still shoot at the same 200 meters ... and there is a question -What is the point in fencing a garden when you can leave ONE automatic pistol with a butt, but give him ALREADY 120 rounds and 240 rounds in the NAZ in his vest, not to mention the fact that you can put another 4-5 MIBs in there? enemy to the ground, break away and put a couple of minutes to give a tear ..

[vl903]

Quote: Barberry25

both AKSU and PP-200 will have a direct shot at 2000 meters, here the point is different - the pilot cannot take more than 4 magazines for such an assault rifle from the word in general, but he will still shoot at the same 200 meters ... and there is a question -What is the point in fencing a garden when you can leave ONE automatic pistol with a butt, but give him ALREADY 120 rounds and 240 rounds in the NAZ in his vest, not to mention the fact that you can put another 4-5 MIBs in there? enemy to the ground, break away and put a couple of minutes to give a tear ..

the weight of the cartridge 9x19 and 5,45 is the same
flatness is worse
then the percentage of hits is less, as a result, by the number of bqs from 9x19, we immediately lose
mib are needed unambiguously

[Barberry25]

um, well, it’s like a direct shot just at the PP in caliber 9 * 19 just 200 meters away, so the difference of 5-10 centimeters vertically is not critical, BUT instead of 1 magazine for the Kalash we can take 2 magazines for the PP, t .e. instead of 4 stores, we already have 8 stores .. although I already wrote that I am a supporter of an automatic pistol with a stock, then we are already talking about 8 in NAZ + 3 in unloading + 1 shortened in the AP, i.e. in fact 350 rounds ... and this is already more than

[vl903]

Quote: Barberry25

um, well, it’s like a direct shot just at the PP in caliber 9 * 19 just 200 meters away, so the difference of 5-10 centimeters vertically is not critical, BUT instead of 1 magazine for the Kalash we can take 2 magazines for the PP, t .e. instead of 4 stores, we already have 8 stores .. although I already wrote that I am a supporter of an automatic pistol with a stock, then we are already talking about 8 in NAZ + 3 in unloading + 1 shortened in the AP, i.e. in fact 350 rounds ... and this is already more than

I agree that the number of bq is a very important factor, but not the only one. in the case of a forest, continuous jungle, maybe a private sector, cartridge 9x19, or better 7,62x25 is suitable. in all other cases, no.
Interestingly, the difference in the weight of a loaded magazine of 30 pieces in 9x19 and 5,45 is big?

[Barberry25]

If you want to live, you’ll take it away, here it’s another matter, in the volume where you can place the NAZ ... and it’s either a box in the chair, or everything that fits on the vest

[vl903]

Quote: Barberry25

If you want to live, you’ll take it away, here it’s another matter, in the volume where you can place the NAZ ... and it’s either a box in the chair, or everything that fits on the vest

I agree that the size of the store is 5,45 more than 1,5-2 times probably.
from this again, as the forum users of the NAZ tanker, helicopter pilot, and the ejection seat said, should be different ...
but it all depends on the effectiveness of the cartridge ... I am a sofa expert, you need to ask the infantry special forces, saboteurs, which cartridge they would choose in this situation, adjusted for the pilot? from the cartridge it is necessary to dance further.

[Barberry25]

but nothing that special forces can give incorrect recommendations? everything is simple, there is a range of combat, up to 200 meters, for this range that AKSU, that MA-17, that PPK, that Kashtan works, all that is further is already shamanism, there is protection in the form standard bulletproof vests of the 3rd class and panels of the 5th class i.e. the armor will withstand the hit of any cartridges in the plate, BUT the armor-piercing cartridges of 9 mm in Kevlar will not withstand, all the more, the 7,62TT armor-piercing cartridges will not withstand ... therefore, since we cannot hit the target, then we need a density of fire, therefore, a larger BK. suit Cowboy, so he can use 5,45, since now they have AK-74S and they have norms

[vl903]

Quote: Barberry25

but nothing that special forces can give incorrect recommendations? everything is simple, there is a range of combat, up to 200 meters, for this range that AKSU, that MA-17, that PPK, that Kashtan works, all that is further is already shamanism, there is protection in the form standard bulletproof vests of the 3rd class and panels of the 5th class i.e. the armor will withstand the hit of any cartridges in the plate, BUT the armor-piercing cartridges of 9 mm in Kevlar will not withstand, all the more, the 7,62TT armor-piercing cartridges will not withstand ... therefore, since we cannot hit the target, then we need a density of fire, therefore, a larger BK. suit Cowboy, so he can use 5,45, since now they have AK-74S and they have norms

it is necessary to ask the special forces - only they have experience and a wealth of absolutely similar situations - one against a round-up. and they can tell which cartridge is suitable in most situations and which is better with 300 cartridges or 120 cartridges and a special mark for microwave, AM17, both with good sighting.
my opinion is that if they caught up to 200m, the pilot would not be allowed to go, they would be surrounded, healed and wounded, or they would wait until they even run out of 300 rounds and take prisoner. hence the submachine gun is useless. it is better to spend this weight on mines and grenades.
but again I am a sofa expert. you need to look for people with experience

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: riwas

"Vintorez" of the last modification.

One of the requirements for army self-defense weapons was a high flatness of the shot (it is easier to aim), the flatness of the Val-Vintorez subsonic cartridges is very low, requires special training, plus the weight of the cartridge is too large.

[Nafanya from the sofa]

In the event of a bailout and landing in enemy-occupied territory, the NAZ must help the pilots save their lives.

If a pilot is shot down over enemy territory, no NAZ or submachine gun will help. He can only be saved by good radio communication and a well-organized rescue and evacuation service armed to the teeth.
Everything else is "from the evil one"

[RaDeVl]

Only luck will help, the ability to wait for the evacuation. Automatic compact weapons should be and grenades should be. This will increase the chances of a downed crew trying to get to the place of evacuation, well, or last until the appearance of "evacuators".

[vl903]

Quote: Nafanya from the couch

In the event of a bailout and landing in enemy-occupied territory, the NAZ must help the pilots save their lives.

If a pilot is shot down over enemy territory, no NAZ or submachine gun will help. He can only be saved by good radio communication and a well-organized rescue and evacuation service armed to the teeth.
Everything else is "from the evil one"

1.the main hope is evacuation and survival courses for pilots and special rescue teams
2. An experienced pilot costs 3 of the cost of his apparatus, that is, roughly 50-90 million dollars. If you don’t care about a person, then that kind of money pays for the development of a special barrel of equipment and rescue groups and the fight for each pilot in any situation.
3.In the world, the pilot is given either a pistol or an M16 collapsible - intermediate is useless
4. It is useless to ask pilots, they do not understand, and on the ground they become valuable poorly trained infantrymen. it is necessary to ask the commandos of the saboteurs
5. A pilot may need a weapon in several situations. it is either a fight in an environment at once with the task of delaying time until the arrival of salvation. or avoiding the pursuit. or quiet leaving for example through the forests to their own or the place of evacuation.
a) you need a pistol with a silencer to get food, remove the witness.
b) you need a weapon that is more effective at long ranges and at least at small ones than pc and ak74
6. when ejected, a large pistol on the body cripples the pilot. The size of the NAZ is limited by the space under the pilot's seat. The weight of the NAZ is limited.
7. we get a compact pistol with a silencer and am17, microwave, aqu521, in a collapsible, lightweight version - restore the mass deficit with a universal battery for a walkie-talkie, flashlight, etc. in the butt. with a good aim providing an advantage on a regular AK. it is possible with a small resource.
8.A couple of rescued pilots will already pay for the development of weapons and equipment and special courses
9. PPK20 for the police - norms. for the pilot, this is sabotage, even under this cartridge there are already better samples in weight and dimensions.
10.In the video of the star, it slips that ppk20 was adopted at the request of Shoigu, the pilots could only pretend that they liked him (((

[vladcub]

"For pilots this is sabotage" after the death of Peshkov, it was said a lot that the pilot needed modern PP.
"pretend they like it" better a weapon than a regular "pistol

[vl903]

Unfortunately, he would have helped Peshkov in the same way as Stechkin.
Therefore, ppk20 was done for the pilots in Russian speaking from ... b ... tes + cut the budget.
and it would be fine if we had an Army of Luxembourg ... our combat experience is full, and again we are advancing into the same dermo.
Well, that the soldiers aren't generals, they'll sit on breadcrumbs too

[vladcub]

It is best to avoid this situation.
In the event of a clash with superior forces, the AK-105 will not help much, but if a group of 5-7 people with such a rattle is quite convenient

[vl903]

Quote: vladcub

It is best to avoid this situation.
In the event of a clash with superior forces, the AK-105 will not help much, but if a group of 5-7 people with such a rattle is quite convenient

it is clear that it is better not to admit it.
but if it happened, with this rattle, the capture group will approach the border of effective fire ppk20, then calmly heal, injure and take prisoner. further torture ...
therefore Peshkov did not wait.
there is a difference between APS and PPK20, but these 100 meters of range, unfortunately, do not give anything.
that is, the fact that they began to do something is good. what exactly ppk20 sabotage
to know the effective range of AK105 with optics ...

[vladcub]

Do you want AK-74 or else: Cliff?

[vl903]

Quote: vladcub

Do you want AK-74 or else: Cliff?

of course, I would like a laser guidance device and a rocket from a drone that is already hovering over the crash site ... well, or Hail in the bosom)))
but we are constrained by NAZ's size and weight restrictions and the understanding that one pilot is always a loser against a round-up on him.
so there is no need to reinvent the wheel - we need to use the rich experience of our sabotage groups. What do they take with them? mines, silent weapons, machine guns and sniper rifles. we cannot give all this to the pilot. but mines, satellite communications, a laser targeting device, a compact pistol with a silencer, a special barrel with optics, a thermal imager night light, auto-firing and greater accuracy and range of fire than AK74 and PC can. and competence and industry still remain.
the number of cartridges is small, but accuracy will help out here.

[Barberry25]

oh yes, that is. your pilot still becomes a poorly trained infantryman, but he needs to be given a Rifle or an assault rifle with a couple of other magazines in his hands, so that the first battle for him would be the last due to the lack of ammunition as such

[vl903]

Quote: Barberry25

oh yes, that is. your pilot still becomes a poorly trained infantryman, but he needs to be given a Rifle or an assault rifle with a couple of other magazines in his hands, so that the first battle for him would be the last due to the lack of ammunition as such

yes the pilot is a high-class air fighter. not very infantryman. it is desirable for him to have special courses, good ones, because he is an expensive specialist.
the Americans gave money to the pilot in the NAZ. I'm afraid it won't help ours.
torture awaits our pilot, so if unlucky, the pilot often chooses a battle and sometimes a grenade for himself ...
Can the Russian Federation afford to give these people a decent special barrel, which will increase their chances of survival by 1 percent?
mind you, I tend to the collapsible version of the microwave or AKV 521 precisely because there are few cartridges and accuracy is needed because inaccurate shooting will only provoke the chase
or should he surrender that he was tortured?
I don't understand what you are driving at ...

[Barberry25]

but the meaning of money in NAZ? the locals and the money will be taken away, and the pilot will be handed over .. About "accurate shooting" .. let us take you from the sky to the ground, and then we will give you a rifle and 3 shops .. and fight the enemy .. which you are 400 meters will not see and you will only reveal yourself by shooting, but the rifle is not good for melee ... and yes, what a love for AKV? this is an experimental weapon at the moment with incomprehensible prospects ... If such a dance has already gone, then it is better then shove the PP and the pistol under 9 by 21..time we say Fee about 9 to 19.. although I lean towards weapons under the caliber of 7,62 TT..he even with old cartridges is close to ammunition a, la fay seven 5,7, XNUMX mm

[vl903]

1.the weight of the cartridge 9x19 and 5,45 is the same
2.give the pilot an advantage
3.Even at 200m 5,45 and 5,7 are easier to hit than 9 and 7,62
4. It is clear that you need to quietly leave and wait for the helicopter, here you may need a pistol with a silencer for random singles. but they saw the jump and if the enemy is nearby, then they already see the pilot and letting him go to 200m for 5 minutes before being wounded and he will not be allowed to run, there are many of them, he is alone, he will just be squeezed by fire.
5.pistol cartridge can work on an equal footing with pc and ak74 only in some very rare cases
6. AVK, SHF, AM17 give greater accuracy than AKM, AK74, they are compact, there is auto fire, their duralumin-titanium collapsible version can fit into the NAZ
7.therefore, probably the money is more in NAZ and does not lie, which is no use
8. Right now I agree with you it is better to put p2000 or AEK in NAZ and 7,62x 25 is better than 9x19. And start developing a special barrel.
ppk20 it is not at all clear why the pilot
8.NAZ needs mines and a device for laser guidance of projectiles or drone missiles. modern satellite communications

[Barberry25]

the accuracy of shooting depends on the weapon and the recoil. By the way, I really want to look at the "accuracy of automatic fire from a rifle 7,62 * 54", but for some reason on all units it was automatic fire was removed because of its uselessness .. Here are examples

[vl903]

Quote: Barberry25

the accuracy of shooting depends on the weapon and the recoil. By the way, I really want to look at the "accuracy of automatic fire from a rifle 7,62 * 54", but for some reason on all units it was automatic fire was removed because of its uselessness .. Here are examples

about the mass agree. I also propose that we save the mass of the titanium-lightened barrel by integrating a battery into it, maybe a knife with a scabbard, a removable optical-thermal sight and a laser target designation device. if necessary, the pilot will remove what he still needs and throw the barrel.
there was also a topic with balanced automatics, but they considered that it was expensive and difficult for an ordinary infantryman. but for the pilot it is not expensive, and you will not have to maintain it - the barrel is disposable.
I know that auto-fire is not effective with a rifle cartridge under conventional schemes. This is confirmed by the experience of operating AVT40, FG42, etc. yes, the whole evolution of 7,62x54- 7,62x39- 5,45x39 was caused by this.
By the way, the auto fire on the AVT40 went from the bottom, from the soldiers, it greatly reduced the resource, but the soldiers insisted that although it was not effective in the usual sense, it sometimes saves lives.
therefore, for our purposes, under a powerful cartridge, either balanced automation or aato fire should be used in extreme situations at a short distance

[Barberry25]

well, let's not compare the assault operations of the infantry and the weapons of salvation for the pilot. in fact ... it is necessary to conduct tests ... to clear all the questions

[Avior]

The weapon should give the shot down a chance to break away from the enemy, having previously disappeared from his field of view, using obstacles and folds of the terrain and hide in anticipation of the rescue group.

[kit88]

Quote: Nafanya from the couch

If a pilot is shot down over enemy territory, no NAZ or submachine gun will help.

So I repeat about it.
Until when will we have in NAZ the ancient as shit of the mammoth R-855, albeit modernized, even with the GLONASS module. MSS takes a bearing from a range of about 10-15 km, no transmission of coordinates, an open voice communication range of 800 meters ...
From her sense as from a goat .... More harm.
The foe has already had a whole "computer" at the disposal of the crashed pilots for 20 years, with over-the-horizon secret space communications, with packet data transmission, with automatic transmission of coordinates ...
And we shove all the grenades into NAZ, maybe it will hold out until they find it.

[kit88]

PS /
By the way, in the film "Time of the First" it is perfectly shown how it works. If not for an accident, it would have been a tragedy. Since then, nothing has changed.

[Nafanya from the sofa]

"Time of the First" is the most disgusting and deceitful film about space exploration.

[Bez 310]

Quote: kit88

How long will we have a mammoth R-855 as ancient as shit in NAZ?

The question is very correct!

[vl903]

Quote: kit88

Quote: Nafanya from the couch

If a pilot is shot down over enemy territory, no NAZ or submachine gun will help.

So I repeat about it.
Until when will we have in NAZ the ancient as shit of the mammoth R-855, albeit modernized, even with the GLONASS module. MSS takes a bearing from a range of about 10-15 km, no transmission of coordinates, an open voice communication range of 800 meters ...
From her sense as from a goat .... More harm.
The foe has already had a whole "computer" at the disposal of the crashed pilots for 20 years, with over-the-horizon secret space communications, with packet data transmission, with automatic transmission of coordinates ...
And we shove all the grenades into NAZ, maybe it will hold out until they find it.

agree. no systematic approach

[Adam men]

This assault rifle is not suitable for pilots! Kalashnikovites "pushed through" the state order. Its 9x19 cartridge is only work at a distance of at most 100 meters. What will you do at 100 meters against the barmaley with Kalash? Nothing! You are dead! AM-17 would be better. There, the aiming range is 1000 m. Why the flyers themselves are silent. They are shoving a frank shnyaga! Such a weak cartridge is not suitable: it is for the city, for premises, more or less, and this PP is not suitable for protection in combat conditions!

[Avior]

The aiming range is the numbers drawn on the sight and it only says about the range at which the sight is marked and nothing else.
Effective firing range - this parameter indicates the ability to effectively fire at a certain distance.

[Adam men]

Well done. You know. Yes, effective firing range. It is not important "sighting" / "effective" - ​​is the meaning clear?

[Avior]

I understand.
Like what's what's yours

There, the aiming range is 1000 m.

It's about nothing

[Barberry25]

and what is not 4 meters at once? and even put the optics PSO, so that 000 shot - 1 corpse ..

[vl903]

Quote: Barberry25

and what is not 4 meters at once? and even put the optics PSO, so that 000 shot - 1 corpse ..

Sighting modern ones are very necessary because with strict restrictions on weight and size, it is necessary to give the pilot an advantage.
collimator with the possibility of magnification and a thermal imager and illumination of the target for guided missiles of the drone, can be the front. compensate for excess mass with a titanium-dural body

[Barberry25]

oh yes, the pilot is a gunner .. if they get in touch with him, then they will provide cover, his tasks will either subside, or go into the gap .. you need a modern satellite communication station with a navigator.

[vl903]

modern communication is a must.
a person whose life, allegedly according to the US methods, is estimated at three costs of his plane, perhaps it is possible to conduct good special courses and invest in his equipment? is it cost-effective?

[SSA]

Sorry, but you are writing outright savagery! AM-17, this is the same AKS-74U with a body kit. What kilometer ?! What a madman he will beat for a kilometer from this stubby barrel. What a battle between a pilot and an infantry, that would have to shoot at the infantry for 1 km. ??? !! .....

[SVD68]

With personal protective weapons, our designers fell into the "export" trap. Supposedly, if we manufacture weapons for a widespread cartridge, other countries will buy them from us. This is mistake. Weapons for combat must meet the needs of combat.
The pilot accepts battle either in a collision with a single enemy, or in conditions of multiple enemy superiority. In the first case, he needs a silent weapon so that the case does not pass into the second. Here it is more likely not a pistol with a silencer, but with a gunpowder cut-off still in the case.
In the second case, the pilot himself will not be able to win even with a machine gun. He is still not a sniper or a saboteur. Here the pilot needs a weapon that would allow him to keep the enemy at a distance for some time. To either wait for help, or to hide, to escape. Those. you need a weapon with an apparent range under 400 m and with a large ammunition.

[Bez 310]

Quote: SVD68

the pilot needs a weapon that would allow him to keep the enemy at a distance for some time. To either wait for help, or to hide, to escape. Those. you need a weapon with an apparent range under 400 m and with a large ammunition.

You are absolutely right about the pilots and about the "export trap".
Now the matter was complicated by the fact that the "best" Ministry of Defense approved
this is a disgrace, and there is no turning back, unfortunately. Our partners"
know how to count money, and understand something about rifles, so it is necessary
was to look at their "survival rifle", and do something
like that.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Bez 310

Now the matter was complicated by the fact that the "best" Ministry of Defense approved
this is a disgrace, and there is no turning back, unfortunately.

But there is a road ahead. After all, the same AK has a small-sized machine gun AM-17 on its way.
So it is possible that after the completion of the contract for the supply of PPK-20 by popular demand they will decide to replace it with AM-17 - and AK will receive the next contract.

[Avior]

... the pilot needs a weapon that would allow him to keep the enemy at a distance for some time. To either wait for help, or to hide, to escape. Those. you need a weapon with an apparent range under 400 m and with a large ammunition.

You need to be not pilots, but a superman to lie and keep a group of armed opponents at a distance of 400 m.
First of all, they will surround you and begin to reduce the distance alternately from different sides, using shelters and folds of the terrain, and you are alone and there are no eyes on the back of your head.
And if you run away with fire on the move, out of breath at a distance of 400 m, you will not frighten anyone and you will not be able to keep at this distance, especially if there are several opponents.

[vl903]

Quote: Avior

... the pilot needs a weapon that would allow him to keep the enemy at a distance for some time. To either wait for help, or to hide, to escape. Those. you need a weapon with an apparent range under 400 m and with a large ammunition.

You need to be not pilots, but a superman to lie and keep a group of armed opponents at a distance of 400 m.
First of all, they will surround you and begin to reduce the distance alternately from different sides, using shelters and folds of the terrain, and you are alone and there are no eyes on the back of your head.
And if you run away with fire on the move, out of breath at a distance of 400 m, you will not frighten anyone and you will not be able to keep at this distance, especially if there are several opponents.

in this case, the pilot can abandon the NAZ and either surrender immediately or simply run away. but this is not a reason for someone who wants and feels the strength not to give a chance. if he escapes the Russian Federation will save up to 90 million dollars, if you don't care about the soldier

[Avior]

He should run as fast as possible, but at the same time, having a weapon with an effective shooting range will not help him much - he still won't keep the attackers at such a distance, so it's easier for him to just run at such a distance
But if the enemy manages to reduce the distance of less than 200 m, then it will become much more difficult for the pilot to run, he must first slow down the enemy with dense fire, and then run again.

[vl903]

Quote: Avior

He should run as fast as possible, but at the same time, having a weapon with an effective shooting range will not help him much - he still won't keep the attackers at such a distance, so it's easier for him to just run at such a distance
But if the enemy manages to reduce the distance of less than 200 m, then it will become much more difficult for the pilot to run, he must first slow down the enemy with dense fire, and then run again.

about that and speech!
for dense fire, you need a huge ammunition load.
he will not be able to run when the enemy approaches 400 meters
if he stops at 200m, they will press him to the ground with fire and begin to surround him, the enemy's bc is many times greater.
vabsche of course it would be to ask around the infantry, namely reconnaissance, saboteurs, etc.
It seems to me that if you let me go to 200m the chances are few. just wait and hope they don't hurt. well, do not make people laugh with their PCs 20 and 120 rounds

[Avior]

... he will not be able to run when the enemy approaches 400 meters

This is if in an open field
And if with obstacles, folds of terrain, vegetation, buildings, then at a distance of more than 200 m the chances of survival are much higher
Weapon for aunt - if the enemy turned out to be too close - with dense fire to knock down the pace of his movement - and run himself as quickly as possible at this moment. Of course, there are no guarantees, but there are chances under certain conditions.

[vl903]

Quote: Avior

... he will not be able to run when the enemy approaches 400 meters

This is if in an open field
And if with obstacles, folds of terrain, vegetation, buildings, then at a distance of more than 200 m the chances of survival are much higher
Weapon for aunt - if the enemy turned out to be too close - with dense fire to knock down the pace of his movement - and run himself as quickly as possible at this moment. Of course, there are no guarantees, but there are chances under certain conditions.

well, in these conditions, a PP with a silencer or a sound attenuator or a Val would probably have helped to break the ring and leak out

[SVD68]

Quote: Avior

You need to be not pilots, but a superman to lie and keep a group of armed opponents at a distance of 400 m.

It is impossible to keep a multiply superior enemy at any distance. You can only slow down their progress at the last 400 m (at a greater distance it is better to leave without noise). For the enemy to think: "Are we running too fast?"

[Avior]

and how do you do it at 400 meters on several opponents? Will you lie down and carefully aim at each of the opponents in turn in the hope that the rest will lie down with fright, and will not advance in dashes?
no, it doesn't make sense - you are still lying in place, you will simply be surrounded.
Or will you shoot blindly while running over your shoulder at 400 meters, hoping to scare someone with this? so at 400 m you will not scare anyone, the bullets will go very far from the attackers.
at 400 m is an unfeasible undertaking.
But the two hundred and second method can already be used.

[Barberry25]

but tell me .. they will shoot at you from 150-200 meters from the Kalash and from the PP, as I understand. That you Kalash will be frightened, but when firing from the PP will you go bravely raising your head with a marching step towards the enemy?

[hhurik]

A Russian-speaking contractor from Iraq, I remember, told at one specialized forum how a German group had rolled in to accompany the cargo for the US Army. As weapons used exclusively submachine guns under 9x19. They were immediately fired upon by the natives on the road from behind the dunes, about 300 meters away. They could not oppose anything due to the uselessness of the pistol cartridge, the enemy burned several cars with impunity and disappeared. After that, the Germans rushed to the local bazaar and bought AK for all the team members. To avoid.
I don't know who is talking about 200 meters under 9x19 - I personally will hardly get into the height room at such a distance (experience with PPSh under 9x19), if the bullet flies and there is a fair wind (in contrast to the full-fledged intermediate cartridge for assault rifles). a modern automatic shortening covers any handicrafts under a pistol cartridge like a bull to a sheep, I see no reason at all to discuss this issue. Some sort of sabotage, they would have tied the bow to the chair with duct tape.

[Barberry25]

do not confuse warm and soft

[SSA]

In the garden there is an elderberry, and in Kiev there is an uncle. Have you heard this expression? And here is the convoy's security group, which can carry at least light machine guns, even under-barrels and which must fight in a GROUP! And the actions of a single pilot, who generally has to shoot only as a last resort!

[SSA]

Even if you give the pilot an AK-12 with a range of 400 meters, it will not help him against a regular infantry squad. The terrain is not runway-smooth space. Seven trained infantrymen with AKM barrels, at a distance of 400 meters, ALWAYS suppress and shoot one AK-12 barrel of a regular pilot. No need for fantasies.
Only in a Hollywood movie, rescuers arrive at the very last moment. If there is a lot of the enemy, then the pilot has already been killed, and the search group itself gets into trouble.

[hhurik]

Trouble-sadness is straight Well then - the slingshot remains, it still disappears, and even though the pocket of the overalls does not delay, you can still stuff the sneakers there.
Indeed, what am I talking about - I push the assault rifle to the pilot, nothing will help him. Inshallah.

[evgen1221]

Hopes for only one design of AK and stamping AK-like for all occasions can play a cruel joke when it is possible with a flint gun against a rifled one.

[vl903]

Quote: evgen1221

Hopes for only one design of AK and stamping AK-like for all occasions can play a cruel joke when it is possible with a flint gun against a rifled one.

or with maxim versus mg34

[Zaurbek]

Until all the prodigies were serialized all over the world ..... everyone saws the basic schemes: M4, AP15, AK..FN .... and G ...

[IS-80_RVGK2]

Quote: evgen1221

Whenever possible with a flintlock against a rifled rest.

The very first rifled weapon was almost with a match lock, if that.

[Max PV]

In general, I think not bad. But ammunition is in doubt. And it's not about range. After shooting down and ejection, the pilot, being in enemy territory, is in such a state that there is no need to talk about aimed shooting at a distance of more than 100m, especially taking into account the level of shooting training of the average pilot. Doubts are caused by the penetrating effect of the pistol cartridge, even the armor-piercing 7N21, especially given the proliferation of SIBZ. 5,45, even on a short barrel, Ksenia has better armor penetration, especially with 7N22 cartridges. On the other hand, 41 cm in total length with the stock folded is a huge plus in front of the AKSU, which has a length of 49/73 cm.

[Zaurbek]

The military conflict in Syria showed the vulnerability of downed pilots in a ground collision with the enemy.

1. Su24 M was shot down insidiously by the Turks ..... that is. reconnaissance did not work and flew without protection ... and there was no answer
2. For some reason, the Su25 flew low where it was not necessary to fly and received MANPADS ...

And so, if we exclude buzziness in reconnaissance, planning and execution ... then the PP is more convenient than the AKS and better than the Stechkin Pistol.

[vl903]

Quote: Zaurbek

The military conflict in Syria showed the vulnerability of downed pilots in a ground collision with the enemy.

1. Su24 M was shot down insidiously by the Turks ..... that is. reconnaissance did not work and flew without protection ... and there was no answer
2. For some reason, the Su25 flew low where it was not necessary to fly and received MANPADS ...

And so, if we exclude buzziness in reconnaissance, planning and execution ... then the PP is more convenient than the AKS and better than the Stechkin Pistol.

this war and bungling may be less but it will be
I would agree for other countries, for the Russian Federation to have the same SHAME in NAZ APS, PM, AK74U and ppk20! with our arms industry, it is still possible to make barrels worthy of pilots, helicopter pilots and tankers, DIFFERENT

[Zaurbek]

the industry of the USSR was tuned for the mass production of the same products .... only now, with modern 5-coordinate machines, it is possible to make a variety. So they began to do it.

[vl903]

Quote: Zaurbek

the industry of the USSR was tuned for the mass production of the same products .... only now, with modern 5-coordinate machines, it is possible to make a variety. So they began to do it.

it's not about the machines. different approach. the armament of the USSR was optimized for an all-out war with nuclear weapons. there the pilot did not really need a special barrel. In Vietnam, the pilot landed on his territory - little weapons are needed, the Americans immediately began to search for suitable options. In the USSR, after Vietnam, a STACK in the heads of Avia generals and others began. in that Afghanistan they began to take AK74U or APS with them. realized that something was wrong, but then perestroika came and that's it (((
the task would have been set - would have done ... look at the silent weapons, underwater or air cannons - masterpieces!

[iouris]

It's a good thing, however, without a sharp increase in the efficiency of the search and evacuation system from the landing site, the pilot will not live long.

[Zufei]

My ideal is the pilot's barrel on the ground. Arithmetic mean between APS and AKSU. Cartridges can be purchased. Costs are not great.

[vl903]

Quote: Zufei

My ideal is the pilot's barrel on the ground. Arithmetic mean between APS and AKSU. Cartridges can be purchased. Costs are not great.

ppk20 is better than p90 in terms of reliability and especially of a store, and even more so after a bailout, and even more so in conditions of survival, and God forbid in winter. as well as the convenience of bul dads is very controversial.
p90 is better than ppk20 in terms of flatness of the shot.
but both of them are submachine guns with a range of 200m (((

[Zufei]

For some reason, almost all downed planes fall in a warm climate. Reliability for the pilot is sufficient (It's still not infantry). But 900 bullets per second. with V = 700m / s - this well knocks down the pace of pursuit

[vl903]

Quote: Zufei

For some reason, almost all downed planes fall in a warm climate. Reliability for the pilot is sufficient (It's still not infantry). But 900 bullets per second. with V = 700m / s - this well knocks down the pace of pursuit

while warm ...
they write no strength of stores ... it means that when they bail them out ...
the complexity of the magazines is prohibitive ... in the mud? ... and 50% of the problems with weapons are usually magazines ...
bk is very limited ... 4 shops .... 8 bursts and p90 can the pilot throw out?
The corpses of the pursuers knock down the pace of the pursuit, at least one .. further 200m, the P90 bursts will only provoke the pursuit. closer than 200 to the pilot, everything is already ... well, only if it's not a jungle or a dense forest ...
there is one plus - the flatness is good ...

[Avior]

then this is more logical

it is simpler, more classic and noticeably lighter
with a similar cartridge and capabilities.

[vl903]

Quote: Avior

then this is more logical

it is simpler, more classic and noticeably lighter
with a similar cartridge and capabilities.

what kind of beast?

[Avior]

Heckler & Koch MP7 A1 PDW
Competitor FN P90 from the picture above

[Pytnik]

Quote: vl903

therefore Peshkov did not wait.

It's good that you are not being read by relatives of the Hero of Russia pilot of the Su 25 attack aircraft Roman Filipov, shot down on February 3, 2018, who blew himself up with a grenade surrounded by militants ... so confuse ..., Su 24 Lieutenant Colonel Peshkov was shot down on November 24, 2015 by Turkish F 16 , Peshkov died while landing by parachute as a result of shelling from the ground by militants who identified themselves as a Turkish ultra-right organization "Gray Wolves", the head of the organization, Alparslan Celik, claimed responsibility for the murder.

[vl903]

Quote: Pytnik

Quote: vl903

therefore Peshkov did not wait.

It's good that you are not being read by relatives of the Hero of Russia pilot of the Su 25 attack aircraft Roman Filipov, shot down on February 3, 2018, who blew himself up with a grenade surrounded by militants ... so confuse ..., Su 24 Lieutenant Colonel Peshkov was shot down on November 24, 2015 by Turkish F 16 , Peshkov died while landing by parachute as a result of shelling from the ground by militants who identified themselves as a Turkish ultra-right organization "Gray Wolves", the head of the organization, Alparslan Celik, claimed responsibility for the murder.

Thank you for correcting it ... Unfortunately I confused it ... Shame on me of course ... The day before yesterday I only watched the video on YouTube ... But I remember them and the others who died for us ... And my children remember ...

[Looking for]

Well, a transporter should fly behind the fighter to store and transport this "weapon".

[SSA]

1. PPK-20 is an excellent submachine gun, the very thing for the pilot.

2. Lebedev's pistol is also needed, sometimes (as a result of a fall) or other reasons, you remain only with what is on you.

3. The APS pistol (oh horror, don't tear me apart) has long been rightly recognized by many experts .... not very successful for combat operations. As a submachine gun, it is not very much like a pistol, "on short" it is not convenient and cumbersome, firing bursts from the APS is ... a myth. In Chechnya, many commandos refused to use the APS because of its inconvenience. This weapon was not created for special forces and not for combat, Stechkin was given the task of making a pistol with an automatic fire mode, he completed this task. Everything!

4. Once in the training center of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, before sending to Chechnya, we simulated a variety of clashes with an opponent equal or superior to you, the conclusions are always the same:
a) they saw each other at the same time - suppressive, non-aiming fire "point-blank" and retreat to advantageous positions with a further "escape".
b) I saw the enemy earlier, keep quiet, let him go by. If it is impossible to miss (a path or an open place) let dagger fire and grenades come up to 50 meters.
c) the enemy saw you earlier, in 99% you are a corpse.
Sudden fire can kill one-two-three (luck !!!) people. Never, no one, will shoot one infantry squad from the AK! NEVER. A positional firefight of one medium-curved pilot, with 10 normal (not drunk in motin and not blind) infantrymen, is the death of a pilot in its purest form, in a short time. Point.

5. All these hypotheses that the pilot will shoot back from the advancing enemies, keeping them 400 meters away, until the arrival of the search and rescue team, this is all BOTH DOG!

If the pilot is found, then he is already a corpse, before the arrival of the PSG, and the PSG itself arrives in ... "hell". If the pilot has not yet been completely detected, but the enemy is close and there is a lot of him, then the rescue takes place with the powerful support of the PSG fighters, assault aircraft. Only one thing is required from the pilot, to sit quietly and not get injured (!) While the battle is raging around him, and not to pose as Rambo by betraying his location.
If the pilot is not found, he is quietly picked up by PSG, or WG or sympathetic locals. No AK, AM, Kord, NSVT will save the pilot.

Here's a link on how the downed pilots were picked up. The text is short. Pay attention to the rescue operation in the Argun Gorge, where, while saving the pilot, they carried out a (two-day !!!) assault operation with three "special forces" helicopters, lost the Mi-24 with the entire crew, and only five people died ...
What, to the devil AM-17, Tavor, M-16, etc., what are there 400 meters before arrival ?! .... What are you guys talking about ?!
https://ria.ru/20190125/1549872397.html

[xomaNN]

It looks like a beautiful toy. And certainly a more formidable weapon in the defense of a pilot than a pistol.

[Baron pardus]

Mnda, submachine gun chambered for 9x19 tse peremog. And what about downsizing? like there is a magazine receiver in the pistol grip? "Ne Ne Chuyaly" - Concern Kalashnikov.
If you need a weapon of MINIMUM dimensions, then the layout must be appropriate. Sa24, Uzi, you haven't heard, no? Or "whatever they do, it still turns out AKM" - as in the joke. Is it okay that the 9x19 cartridge is outdated? And nothing that the concept of PP for this caliber has long been irrelevant, except in police work? That the so-called PDW, designed, by the way, specifically for pilots, artillerymen, tankers, should be more powerful than PP under 9mm, have you not heard? Yes, they took an old, rather anemic cartridge, burned down a BB bullet for it, everything was a wunderwaffle, and at the same time a shushpangever. Any weapon is limited in power by its ammunition, no matter how many frames of picattini you hang on it. This PP already loses in all respects and Sa24, and Uzi and M11 Ingram, and this is all 40s-50s of the PAST century. They are chambered for the same cartridge but more compact, the MP5 is the same in size but differs in enviable accuracy (half-slide bolt). "Ball, congratulations - you ...." - Cat Matroskin. Concern Kalashnikov, congratulations, you have created MP5, only worse, heavier, and with less accuracy. And even bigger, the MP5 has a telescopic butt, not a folding one. So the folded MP5 will be smaller.
Of course, it would be possible to cut something like XM177. For some reason, the XM177 with a barrel length of 11.5 inches, unlike AK74SU, did not overheat so quickly, and did not start to "spit" ammunition. Obviously due to the fact that the creators of the XM177, unlike the creators of the AK74SU, did not skimp on a more or less massive barrel (0.625 inches in diameter). By the way, the XM177 will not be much longer than this "Shushpanmashinpistol". Moreover, the equivalent of the XM177 but under 5.45x39 would be more powerful, since the 5.45x39 cartridge better tolerates a 10-inch barrel length than 5.56. Ballistics does not drop that much.
The best solution would be something under a special cartridge. More powerful than the 9x19, but allowing for a more compact weapon than the shortened AK74. There are such cartridges. For example Belgian 5.7x28. And the weapon was created for it, P90. Super compact, reliable, lightweight, and with ballistics that covers 9x19 like a bull a sheep and surpasses in armor penetration.
Do you want even more compact, with ballistics not much worse? H&K MP7. Penetration of 1.5mm titanium at 200m, how do you like it? By the way, about the compactness. I think both the P90 and, especially the MP7, will be more abruptly than the same AKM chambered for 100 years ago.
It was possible to make weapons similar to both the P90 and the MP7, along with ammunition, modern ammunition for modern weapons. But the Kalashnikov concern decided to "create" another version of the AKM, chambered for 9mm. Not a step further from the 40s and 50s samples, and in some respects even worse than some of these samples. Ca23, ultrasound and ingrem are more compact. MP5 - similar in size but distinguished by enviable accuracy.
Sighting range 200m? Made of PP in caliber 9x19. Do not make me laugh. From MP5, in which the barrel is longer and the cartridges are not weaker than the aiming range of 100-150m maxim,

Another cut of the dough. To create a clone of AKM chambered for 100+ years ago, which is inferior in power not only to 5.7x28 and 4.8, not only 357SIG, but also to the old 38 SUPER (created 100 years ago). it's just sabotage

[Michael HORNET]

Some kind of nonsense.
Precisely that PPK-20 is better than the current APS. Do I need weapons under 5.45 type AM-17 is still a question. The Am-17 has a long range. In the passive - a smaller number of cartridges (half potential, but will they be able to
To use it twice is also a question) and a lot of noise and other signature of the shot (the barrel is short)
Moreover, a separate PDV cartridge of the 6x33 type will obviously not be accepted, so we decide only of two
PPK-20 is more compact, quieter (and quieter both with and without a moderator and with any patron). And potentially more bullets
At a range of 150 m versus a potentially 250 m effective fire. In the hands of the pilot, this is 100 and 200 m, 400 m will not work.
Another question is how many subsonics stores and how many 7H21. By the way, the cartridge 7N21 is lighter than 5.45, and its subsonic is heavier
I think that if you rationally approach the BC, then there will be 8 stores - 2 with subsonics and 6 7H21. 8x30 = 240 rounds, and in theory, the standard magazine (it is the same as that of the Saiga, with a slight revision) includes 33 rounds. In total, even 264 rounds. By the way, the accuracy of 7N21 at distances above 50 m is so-so, so if there is 7N21, then this is 100 m in height, but surely well 50, well, maybe 70. The bullet has no ballistic coefficient
The AM17 will have 120 rounds and a confident range of 200 m
The VAL will have the same 120 rounds (the mass is greater, but the limiting factor is the volume, not the mass) (4x30), but with better ballistics than 9x19 and this ballistics is the same, while the ballistics of subsonics and 7H21 are very different. Confident hitting range of 150 m, and the action of the bullet is very direct, good, confident, unlike 9x19
I would choose VAL if there was a choice.

[MauZerR]

I affirm and will affirm: pilots in NAZ do not need this type of weapon, especially this particular one, with its dimensions and ergonomics. The pilots, according to the "Kalashnikovs", apparently all polls "Rambas" and after an emergency landing (well if without serious injuries or injuries) will fight with search groups at 200 meters. Nafig need! The downed pilot's task is to go to the evacuation point, and do it as quietly as possible. A pistol is enough for him for his eyes, you can use a silencer and subsonic cartridges with it, so that absolutely in desperate situations to remove the foe. A group of a lone shooter will quickly press with fire that he will not stick out and either take it warm or throw grenades, even a full-fledged machine gun will not help him in such situations, simply because he is alone. As a weapon of special forces and militia / police in peacetime - this is a good barrel, with reservations in view of the "Kalashov" ergonomics, but good.
And Lebedev's pistol would be just right for the pilots, especially in its "tactical" incarnation: with an elongated threaded barrel under the PBS.

[MauZerR]

Quote: Michael HORNET

Some kind of nonsense.
Precisely that PPK-20 is better than the current APS.
I think that if you rationally approach the BC, then there will be 8 stores - 2 with subsonics and 6 7H21. 8x30 = 240 rounds, and in theory, the standard magazine (it is the same as that of the Saiga, with a small revision) includes 33 rounds. In total, even 264 rounds.

Why would a pilot need 264 rounds ??? He is not an infantryman, his goal, being shot down, is not to shine as much as possible and bring down help to the evacuation point, or wait for it in case he is seriously wounded. Let's put a standalone-grenade launcher module under the VOG in NAZ or something like that, a bandolier for 20 shots, can we also tape KPVT with tape?