Military Review

Why did the USSR need the Bolo Mauser

373

Mauser "Bolo": sight at 50-1000 meters, built-in box magazine for ten rounds, two wooden grip plates with 22 lines - these are its characteristic features. However, they could change. The 1921 model was produced for a long time. And sold too. The inscriptions on the pistol are “Waffenfabrik Mauser Oberndorf” and “Waffenfabrik Mauser Oberndorf A. Neckar”. Left side view (photo: Morphy auctions)


“Then he opened the coveted wardrobe and took out a hefty Mauser - a ten-shot monster born in the Mauserwerke special department, a favorite, famous in the Civil War weapon commissars in dusty helmets, as well as imperial Japanese officers in greatcoats with dog fur collars. The Mauser was clean, blued shimmering, seemingly completely ready for battle, but, unfortunately, with a worn out striker ... "
"The Doomed City" novel by the Strugatsky brothers

History weapons. Not so long ago, a discussion arose on the VO website about the execution in Katyn. Whether he was, was not - now is not about that. The point is that many VO readers still believe that the main weapon of the Chekists, including those who were involved in the liquidation of convicts, were "good old revolvers." And with this, in principle, no one argues. The revolver is a traditional and popular weapon in Russia, but ... for some reason, in Soviet Russia, immediately after the end of the Civil War, they did not appeal to the old traditions and solve the issue of developing their own production of these revolvers in Tula, but thought about equipping them with modern samples of self-loading weapons, and first of all, the operational staff of the Cheka-OGPU.


The same pistol - right side view (photo: Morphy auctions)

The only question was where to get it.

And ... the place was immediately found - yesterday's fierce enemy, and today, potentially the best friend - Weimar Germany. The memory was still alive that in Russia since pre-revolutionary times German Mauser pistols were popular, which became even more popular during the Civil War.

Kozhanka and Mauser became the "calling card" of security officers, commissars, crews of "Comrade Trotsky's propaganda armored train" and all sorts of chieftains, fathers and ... sailors-anarchists. In general, it was the Mauser, and by no means the "good old revolver", that became a kind of symbol of the revolution, so that even during the civil war in Spain in 1936-1939, the fashion for it, as a symbolic weapon of the revolution, was revived again, and they were worn there and anarchists of Durruti, and Canadian volunteers and ... Soviet military advisers.

Window to Asia


But for Germany, “friendship” with the USSR after the defeat in the First World War was a kind of “window”, not to Europe, but to Asia. The military-political leadership of Germany considered the revision of the results of the war to be inevitable. But this required a powerful economy and a well-armed army. That is, it was necessary to raise the country from its knees after defeat, and work on the creation of the latest small arms for the coming war.

Minister of State vom Rathenau (who just laid the foundation for the revival of the German war industry) on this matter, speaking to the generals of the Reichswehr, said:

"In this war, completely new weapons will be used, and the army that is least shackled by outdated weapons will have a huge advantage."

But in order to create new weapons, it was required to load machines and equipment with the production of old weapons. It was required to pay wages to workers so that they could feed their families and pay taxes to the treasury, it was required ...

What!

First of all - production and well-functioning sales of finished products. But with this, the situation in post-war Germany was not very good.


The numbers on the pistol were placed in various places. (photo: Morphy auctions)

Historically, in Germany, the arms industry was divided into two sectors: private and public.

Weapons production centers were located in cities such as Suhl and Nuremberg, Berlin and Leipzig, as well as Erfurt and Kiel. Large state arsenals were located in Amberg, Danzig and, of course, in Berlin and Erfurt, in Potsdam and Spandau, and there they produced weapons for the army, and numerous private firms produced civilian and sporting-hunting weapons, or they were involved in fulfilling army orders for weapons in emergency situations. In particular, dozens of medium and small arms firms and small machine-building factories have successfully joined the work to promote production at state arsenals during the First World War.

Why did the USSR need the Bolo Mauser

German Mauser with a stock holster 1900 release. Caliber 7,63 mm. (Auckland War Memorial Museum, New Zealand)

Now these companies have again switched to the manufacture of their traditional products, that is, they are engaged in the production of hunting, civilian and sporting weapons, and various ... household products, for example, bicycles. It was more difficult for the state arsenals, for which, according to the Versailles Treaty, the production of weapons was limited, but ... it was not completely prohibited, that is, the release of small arms for the Reichswehr was still permitted by the treaty.


German Mauser with a butt holster during the First World War. (Auckland War Memorial Museum, New Zealand)

And ... already from the beginning of the twenties, the process of reviving the military production began in Germany. And already at the end of the first post-war decade, work began on the creation of promising models of various small arms.

We must pay tribute to the German arms companies, which managed abroad (in countries such as Switzerland, Sweden, the Netherlands or the USSR) to deploy not only significant research and development work, but also to establish the production of a number of samples.

Well, and Soviet Russia, having established fairly close political, trade and military contacts with the Weimar Republic, also received its share of modern short-barreled weapons.

In 1920, Waffenfabrik Mauser offered the German police another modification of their famous K.96 - mod. 1920, the total length of which was 256 mm, and the barrel length was 99 mm.

This length did not appear by accident: Germany was forbidden to produce pistols with a caliber of 9 mm and above, while barrels longer than 100 mm were also not allowed.

These pistols could have a magazine for 6 or 10 rounds, the grip cheeks were made of wood or plastic. Subsequently, pistols of earlier releases began to be altered for this model of weapons, moreover, not only the 7,63-mm caliber, but also the 9-mm Parabellum pistols. Well, in 1922 Germany and Soviet Russia signed the famous Rappal agreement and began to trade with each other!

The USSR purchases Mauser pistols (basically these were 7,63-mm pistols of the 1912 model, which were kept in warehouses), and then the Weimar Republic was ordered another 30 thousand Mauser pistols "Bolo" (that is, the "Bolshevik" - this is how this Mauser model began to be called in the West due to its mass sale in the USSR, although this pistol was purchased by a number of other countries) of the 1920-1921 model (in different sources this model dates from these two years) under 7,63 × 25-mm Mauser cartridge.

During the Soviet-Finnish war, such Mausers (as an additional weapon to the three-line carbine) were used to arm skier-scouts of the Red Army. During the Great Patriotic War, a number of these pistols were handed over to Soviet partisans and commanders of some partisan detachments were armed with them.

In 1926, the Mauser mod. 1912 came the 7,63-mm modernized sample of the mod. 1926. The designers simplified the manufacturing technology, the barrel was thickened near the chamber. The design of the safety catch was also different, the flag of which could now be fixed in three positions.

But even after all these improvements, it remained a commercial weapon and was also purchased by the USSR for the command staff of the RKKD and NKVD, and then was used already during the Great Patriotic War.

By the way, in the 1930s, police and commercial Mauser pistols were also in circulation in the USSR, based on the 7,65-mm Browning cartridge, with automatic recoil-based controls. It was a 7,65 mm model 1914/34 pistol, created by the famous gunsmith of the firm Josef Nickl. He successfully established himself in two and a half decades of service in the German police, and the senior command staff of the NKVD and the Red Army did not disdain to use it.

The Spanish Mauser - the famous "Asters" also got to the USSR, especially during the Spanish Civil War. Note that in the USSR, both old stocks and new trophies were used not only in the NKVD, but also in the army. In 1943, for example, Colonel L. Brezhnev of the Guard received the Mauser pistol as a reward.

However, this practice, surprisingly, has been continued in our days. For example, the governor of the Penza region (now deceased), United Russia member Vasily Bochkarev in 2004 received from the Ministry of Defense not some kind of PM, but a personal Mauser K-96.


Award Mauser Budyonny, 1921

Note that in the same 20s, the production of copies of 7,63x25 Mauser cartridges was established in the USSR at the Podolsk Cartridge Plant.

Together with extensive experience in operating Mauser, it was this circumstance that determined the choice of a new Soviet cartridge for a pistol - in 1930, a 7,62-mm cartridge was adopted, now known as 7,62x25 TT, which differs only slightly from the 7,63-mm Mauser cartridge. ...

Interestingly, one of the materials on the Internet also found such a passage that the "opinion about the Mauser" C-96 in Soviet service as a "weapon of firing squads" is a tribute to ideology rather than history. " That is, it means that someone nevertheless expressed such an opinion. But it would be curious to know what it was at least somehow based on. But ... it was just this that we failed to find out!


Mauser "Bolo" with a holster (photo by Revivaler auctions)

True, there is logic that a number of VO readers constantly rely on.

The logic is that the Mausers were purchased for the Cheka-GPU bodies not by chance (one could just do with ordinary revolvers), but for ease of use and to emphasize their elitism.

So one of the Chekists could well have used the Mauser for “this”, since the revolver is inconvenient as a firing weapon. Still, the matter is unpleasant in all respects, even for notorious scoundrels, and I want to end it as soon as possible. And the revolver is not very good for this: it fired seven times, and then twist the drum seven times, work with the ramrod, insert the cartridges. Mayata, and more!

Well, now a little about what the Mauser shells found at the site of the mass shootings, if any, can say.

The burial time is important here, not the liner.

Until June 22, 1941, it can be both Mauser and Nagan shell casings, and it will be all ours, dear, NKVD.

In the burials after this date, one cannot be sure of anything, although it is unlikely that the Germans would have begun to tinker with our "revolvers", painfully at the beginning of the war they despised both us and all ours.

True, there are markings on the sleeves - ours and not ours.

But after all, we also bought cartridges for Mauser from the Germans, but for how long and how quickly did we use them up?

So all these questions are still covered with "dark gloom". And there are much more of them than answers!
Author:
373 comments
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  1. Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2021 06: 40
    -6
    The Bolsheviks took the Mauser into service only because of the powerful cartridge with a high initial velocity, since the Mauser cartridge was supposed to be used in submachine guns, and 7,63 * 25 for submachine guns was preferable to the 9 * 19 cartridge.
    1. kalibr
      19 September 2021 06: 45
      +11
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      and 7,63 * 25 for submachine guns was preferable to cartridge 9 * 19.

      And when and during what tests did it become clear? When the bolos were purchased in the USSR, the only experienced submachine gun was designed by F.V. Tokarev under the revolver cartridge!
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2021 06: 51
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        And when and during what tests did it become clear? When the bolos were purchased in the USSR, the only experienced submachine gun was designed by F.V. Tokarev under the revolver cartridge!

        Actually, this is understandable without any tests, since the PP is designed for aimed shooting at a distance of up to 200 meters, and therefore the higher the initial bullet velocity, the more flat the trajectory of the bullets, and the further the direct shot range, hence the higher the effective firing range.
        1. kalibr
          19 September 2021 06: 54
          +4
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Actually, this is understandable without any tests, since the PP is designed for aimed shooting at a distance of up to 200 meters,

          To you - definitely! But the military of the 20s-30s did not understand this at all.
          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2021 07: 01
            +3
            And why do you think the Bolsheviks began to buy very expensive Mauser, if it would be possible in Germany for the Chekists to buy Lugers, which were both cheaper and more convenient to carry?
            1. kalibr
              19 September 2021 07: 05
              -8
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              And why do you think the Bolsheviks began to buy very expensive Mauser, if it would be possible in Germany for the Chekists to buy Lugers, which were both cheaper and more convenient to carry?

              Good question! I think this is for the Germans to appreciate it. We help you in difficult times - be more compliant too. How many expensive pistols we bought from you, although we could have bought cheaper ones. Well ... and you can do something nice for us.
              1. Kot_Kuzya
                Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2021 07: 07
                +3
                Quote: kalibr
                Good question! I think this is for the Germans to appreciate it. We help you in difficult times - be more compliant too. How many expensive pistols we bought from you, although we could have bought cheaper ones. Well ... and you can do something nice for us.

                Thank you, laughed. Such behavior would be more suitable for a rag tsar or Gorbachev, but not for cynical and tough pragmatists like Lenin and Trotsky.
                1. kalibr
                  19 September 2021 07: 09
                  +7
                  Soviet-German military and military-technical cooperation 1920-1933
                  topic of dissertation and author's abstract on the Higher Attestation Commission of the Russian Federation 07.00.02, Candidate of Historical Sciences Baikov, Aleksey Yurevich, Candidate of Historical Sciences, 2007, Moscow
                  You should read this work ...
                  1. Kot_Kuzya
                    Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2021 07: 20
                    +6
                    I repeat to you once again: there was no military or military-technical cooperation between the USSR and Germany, the USSR in those years was a poor, backward state with an ignorant population, unlike Germany, which at that time was in the first place in world science. The Germans trained Soviet engineers, pilots, artillerymen and tankers, and the USSR in exchange for this training provided them with its territory, since according to the Versailles conditions, the Germans were forbidden to develop and create their own artillery, combat aircraft and tank troops. I hope you have read Grabin's memoirs "The Weapon of Victory", where he tells how in the 20s and early 30s German engineers taught them how to create artillery systems, then still completely inexperienced and illiterate Soviet engineers?
                    1. tatra
                      tatra 19 September 2021 07: 28
                      0
                      Why should the enemies of the communists read something? They have their anti-Soviet perestroika myths that it was the Soviet communists who trained German pilots and tankers, and the communists are bad, because they had to predict that in 15 years the Germans, led by Hitler, would attack the USSR.
                      1. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2021 07: 41
                        +8
                        Quote: tatra
                        Why should the enemies of the communists read something? They have their anti-Soviet perestroika myths that it was the Soviet communists who trained German pilots and tank crews.

                        Yeah, liberals, after all, on serious cabbage soup, claim that it was allegedly in the USSR "a Nazi sword was forged", and that it was an amateur Tukhachevsky, who spent almost the entire WWI in captivity, and sergeant Budyonny with Timoshenko, trained hardened German generals, tankers and pilots. It's like now to assert that German engineers of Mercedes, VAG, BMW and Audi come to Russia to study with Russian engineers of AvtoVAZ wassat
                      2. kalibr
                        19 September 2021 07: 46
                        +3
                        For the third time I am writing: read at least the author's abstract. Then write about the liberals and what they claim.
                      3. Serg koma
                        Serg koma 20 September 2021 18: 14
                        0
                        Left march
                        (To sailors)
                        Turn around in the march!
                        Verbal is not a place for slander.
                        Hush, speakers!

                        Your
                        word,
                        Comrade Mauser.

                        It is enough to live by law,
                        given by Adam and Eve.
                        I swear the pound.
                        Left!
                        Left!
                        Left!
                        .......
                        ......

                        V. Mayakovsky 1918.
                      4. vladcub
                        vladcub 19 September 2021 11: 06
                        +3
                        About the "Nazi sword" is to Shirokorad
                      5. kalibr
                        19 September 2021 07: 45
                        +2
                        And you, dear Irina, of course, have already read the author's abstract to the research I have cited?
                      6. smaug78
                        smaug78 19 September 2021 19: 56
                        -4
                        Baba-slogan and dimwitted pseudo-lefty working for world capitalism, farted here too laughing
                    2. kalibr
                      19 September 2021 07: 44
                      +2
                      He was a beggar, but he sent gold bullion to Germany, right? Read what I wrote to you below. And look into the dissertation ... BEFORE WRITING COMMENTS. At least in the abstract.
                      1. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2021 07: 53
                        +3
                        Quote: kalibr
                        He was a beggar, but he sent gold bullion to Germany, right?

                        Oho-ho-ho! The problem is with liberal historians! They don't understand the obvious! In fact, in the 20s of the 20th century, a gold standard system still existed, each currency of a sovereign state was rigidly tied to gold and had its own gold content, and the then dollar, pound, mark, franc and chervonets were freely and unlimitedly exchanged for gold on demand. It is now the whole world trades in unsecured green bills, but then it was completely different!
                      2. kalibr
                        19 September 2021 08: 11
                        +5
                        That is, he was a beggar, but he traded in gold, according to the standard. So not very poor, right?
                      3. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2021 08: 18
                        -3
                        The trouble is with you liberal historians! Baba Dusya with a pension of 20 thousand buys bread for rubles, and businessman Ivan, with an annual income of 50 million rubles a year, buys bread for rubles too. According to your logic, Baba Dusya is not so poor, since she buys bread for rubles?
                      4. kalibr
                        19 September 2021 10: 20
                        0
                        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                        According to your logic, Baba Dusya is not so poor, since she buys bread for rubles?

                        Of course! If she was a beggar, she would not buy, but asked for Christ's sake!
                      5. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2021 10: 32
                        -1
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Of course! If she was a beggar, she would not buy, but asked for Christ's sake!

                        L-logic of the liberal historian. Pensioners asked for bread for "Christ's sake" in the "saints" for the liberals of the 90s.
                      6. kalibr
                        19 September 2021 18: 08
                        -3
                        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                        L-logic of the liberal historian. Pensioners asked for bread for "Christ's sake" in the "saints" for the liberals of the 90s.

                        So young and so stupid, God forgive me ...
                    3. kalibr
                      19 September 2021 07: 54
                      +1
                      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                      I hope you have read Grabin's memoirs "The Weapon of Victory", where he tells how in the 20s and early 30s German engineers taught them how to create artillery systems, then still completely inexperienced and illiterate Soviet engineers?

                      A dissertation with links to a variety of sources right under your nose! There, and there is a very interesting review.
                      1. zenion
                        zenion 19 September 2021 17: 49
                        -3
                        kalibr. Are you sick of the crown? So after all, you can pick up and forget what this is written about. You consider yourself the most, well, in general, if not God, then the holy spirit.
                      2. kalibr
                        19 September 2021 18: 06
                        -3
                        Quote: zenion
                        You consider yourself the most, well, in general, if not God, then the holy spirit.

                        But you are clearly ill and this is reflected in your mental abilities. Please accept my regrets.
                      3. zenion
                        zenion 19 September 2021 18: 17
                        -2
                        You have a very large room, at least number 6.
                      4. kalibr
                        19 September 2021 18: 20
                        -1
                        "In ancient times, a philosopher said, when there is nothing to say in response, they begin to cling to individual words and the kind of opponent."
                    4. Vadim Kraft
                      Vadim Kraft 21 September 2021 03: 57
                      0
                      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                      I repeat to you once again: there was no military or military-technical cooperation between the USSR and Germany, the USSR in those years was a poor, backward state with an ignorant population, unlike Germany, which at that time was in the first place in world science. The Germans trained Soviet engineers, pilots, artillerymen and tankers, and the USSR in exchange for this training provided them with its territory, since according to the Versailles conditions, the Germans were forbidden to develop and create their own artillery, combat aircraft and tank troops. I hope you have read Grabin's memoirs "The Weapon of Victory", where he tells how in the 20s and early 30s German engineers taught them how to create artillery systems, then still completely inexperienced and illiterate Soviet engineers?

                      Well, why are you spreading this nonsense, why did the Germans study tanking in our Kama tank school and they adopted the tactics of mobile warfare from the USSR, well, nonsense about a backward state, a backward state showed such economic growth that even the Chinese, with the support of the West could not give out.
                      1. Alexey RA
                        Alexey RA 21 September 2021 15: 26
                        +6
                        Quote: Vadim Kraft

                        Well, why are you spreading this nonsense, why did the Germans learn tank science at our Kama tank school?

                        German cadets studied German technology from German teachers in the Kama school created by the Germans, located on the territory of the USSR for only one reason - nowhere else in Europe could the Germans open such a school. For the Versailles Treaty.
                        Quote: Vadim Kraft
                        and they adopted the tactics of mobile war from the USSR

                        The exercises of a mixed heterogeneous camphor group from a motorized regiment, a conditional tank battalion, artillery and a supporting reconnaissance group ("pilot" on a motorcycle) were carried out in the Wehrmacht in the late 20s, under von Seckt.
                        Quote: Vadim Kraft
                        well, nonsense about a backward state, a backward state showed such economic growth that even the Chinese, with the support of the West, could not give out.

                        The classic "low base effect".
                    5. Pilat2009
                      Pilat2009 22 September 2021 09: 46
                      0
                      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                      I repeat to you once again: there was no military or military-technical cooperation between the USSR and Germany, the USSR in those years was a poor, backward state with an ignorant population, unlike Germany, which at that time was in the first place in world science. The Germans trained Soviet engineers, pilots, artillerymen and tankers, and the USSR in exchange for this training provided them with its territory, since according to the Versailles conditions, the Germans were forbidden to develop and create their own artillery, combat aircraft and tank troops. I hope you have read Grabin's memoirs "The Weapon of Victory", where he tells how in the 20s and early 30s German engineers taught them how to create artillery systems, then still completely inexperienced and illiterate Soviet engineers?

                      In the 20s, there were no tank troops in Germany. Yes, and Germany entered the war with a very variegated zoo of artillery systems, captured in Europe. So it is somehow doubtful to train Soviet tankers.
                      1. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya 22 September 2021 10: 46
                        -1
                        Quote: Pilat2009
                        In the 20s, there were no tank troops in Germany. Yes, and Germany entered the war with a very variegated zoo of artillery systems, captured in Europe. So it is somehow doubtful to train Soviet tankers.

                        In fact, the Germans had experience in using tanks in WWI, both their own production and captured. Take the same Lutz, who was the head of the Kama tank school in the USSR, before that he was the commander of the German automobile forces, in fact it was Lutz, who commanded the German motorized forces in WWI, who became the father of the German tank forces.
                      2. Pilat2009
                        Pilat2009 23 September 2021 09: 33
                        0
                        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                        Quote: Pilat2009
                        In the 20s, there were no tank troops in Germany. Yes, and Germany entered the war with a very variegated zoo of artillery systems, captured in Europe. So it is somehow doubtful to train Soviet tankers.

                        In fact, the Germans had experience in using tanks in WWI, both their own production and captured. Take the same Lutz, who was the head of the Kama tank school in the USSR, before that he was the commander of the German automobile forces, in fact it was Lutz, who commanded the German motorized forces in WWI, who became the father of the German tank forces.

                        How many tanks did the Germans make in WWI and what experience did they gain?
                      3. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya 24 September 2021 02: 26
                        +1
                        Quote: Pilat2009
                        How many tanks did the Germans make in WWI and what experience did they gain?

                        Several dozen units, in contrast to Tsarist Russia, where ZERO tanks were made. Plus, the Germans fought the masses of British and French tanks for the last two years, and fought well, since the Anglo-French with their thousands of tanks fiddled with the Germans for two years. And having the experience of confronting the masses of tanks, the Germans could figure out how to use the masses of tanks in the offensive, which they did with the example of Lutz and Guderian. Whereas the Bolshevik military leaders like Tukhachevsky, Budyonny and Voroshilov had ZERO experience in fighting tanks.
                      4. Pilat2009
                        Pilat2009 24 September 2021 07: 04
                        -1
                        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                        Quote: Pilat2009
                        How many tanks did the Germans make in WWI and what experience did they gain?

                        Several dozen units, in contrast to Tsarist Russia, where ZERO tanks were made. Plus, the Germans fought the masses of British and French tanks for the last two years, and fought well, since the Anglo-French with their thousands of tanks fiddled with the Germans for two years. And having the experience of confronting the masses of tanks, the Germans could figure out how to use the masses of tanks in the offensive, which they did with the example of Lutz and Guderian. Whereas the Bolshevik military leaders like Tukhachevsky, Budyonny and Voroshilov had ZERO experience in fighting tanks.

                        YOU don't confuse the wagon-sized PMV tanks that got stuck on the battlefield and the tanks of the 20s-30s when the concept of use changed.
                      5. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya 24 September 2021 07: 36
                        -1
                        Quote: Pilat2009

                        YOU don't confuse the wagon-sized PMV tanks that got stuck on the battlefield and the tanks of the 20s-30s when the concept of use changed.

                        In fact, the Renault FT-17 appeared back in 1917, and it became a revolutionary tank.
                  2. chenia
                    chenia 19 September 2021 09: 49
                    +19
                    Quote: kalibr
                    Soviet-German military and military-technical cooperation 1920-1933

                    Do you even know what shells you found in Katyn? So, this Mauser can not be tied to the execution .. Here are the police versions of the Mauser chambered for 6,35 x15 and 7,65x17 are suitable, but this is a completely different weapon, and the last version of 1934 was not traded with the Germans. So, that article, with a hint of empty. There, if there was a conversation, it was about Walters. But under 6,35mm a rare option. And partially the sleeves were not brass (1940). Well, ours certainly did not have such.
                    So. that the story is muddy.
                    Well, you, as always. shadow on the fence.
                    1. Vladimir_2U
                      Vladimir_2U 19 September 2021 10: 28
                      +12
                      Quote: chenia
                      Do you even know what shells you found in Katyn?

                      The author is above such trifles! laughing
                    2. kalibr
                      19 September 2021 10: 34
                      0
                      Quote: chenia
                      So. that the story is muddy.

                      So at the end of my article it is written that the matter is dark and there are more questions than answers.
                    3. militarist63
                      militarist63 20 September 2021 00: 16
                      0
                      Exactly! There is no mention of something 7,63 mm found in Katyn, about which the author is scratching here ...
                2. kalibr
                  19 September 2021 07: 38
                  +1
                  This is how these trades were carried out then..
                  TOP SECRET. COMRADE LIEZHAVA.
                  20 1920 of August
                  Post-telegram number 791
                  The Politburo decided to immediately conclude the arms deal proposed by Comrade Unshlikht. You must immediately, without wasting a single hour, come to an agreement with Comrade Obolensky so that under his responsibility the required amount (twenty-seven million marks) will be transferred through Gukovsky or Kopp. This is an extremely important and urgent matter. Its practical implementation is entrusted to you and Comrade Unshlikht by the Politburo, sending money to Comrade Obolensky.
                  Pre-military council Trotsky

                  TROTSKY - UNSHLICHT
                  20 1920 of August
                  To number 3838 / V 930 / III. The transaction is approved, that is, Lezhava is instructed to immediately transfer the money. Hurry to complete the operation. Trotsky.

                  TROTSKY - UNSHLICHT
                  20 1920 of August
                  Top secret. On a direct wire (in code). Call Unshlicht. In addition to my telegram No. 790, I would like to inform you that it is extremely difficult to send gold by the routes indicated by you. Do you yourself have the opportunity to directly transfer the gold bullion to the supplier? Do you also have the opportunity with reliable people to send another batch to Kopp? Trotsky.
                  So there is no need for tough pragmatists ...
                  1. Kot_Kuzya
                    Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2021 07: 43
                    +8
                    And where is the desire to please the German comrades and please them in the correspondence? Routine correspondence with a business discussion of the purchase of weapons and their payment.
                    1. kalibr
                      19 September 2021 08: 13
                      -4
                      there was no military or military-technical cooperation between the USSR and Germany, Didn't you write this? What is the money for then? You to me, I to you - this is called trade cooperation or partnership.
                      1. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2021 08: 20
                        +5
                        Quite a disaster, quite a disaster! If a tutor comes to a person's home and teaches him English, is this called, according to your logic, cooperation? According to your logic, a person gives money to a tutor, and he transfers his knowledge. According to your logic, are they partners?
                      2. kalibr
                        19 September 2021 10: 22
                        -6
                        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                        According to your logic, are they partners?

                        This is not my logic, but normal. Yes, they are partners. They are exchanged based on a partnership agreement. One gets knowledge - the other gets money. I understand that meteorologists, in principle, do not need much knowledge. But I never expected such ignorance.
                      3. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2021 10: 37
                        +5
                        Quote: kalibr
                        This is not my logic, but normal. Yes, they are partners. They are exchanged based on a partnership agreement. One gets knowledge - the other gets money

                        That is, the buyer and the seller in the store are also partners. wassat ? It is now clear why the Ukrainians consider the United States to be their "ally," although there is no treaty of alliance between Ukraine and the United States. By the way, do you consider the USSR and Germany between August 23, 1939 and June 22, 1941 "allies"? Precisely on the basis of the Non-Aggression Pact? It turns out that Poland, which concluded a non-aggression pact with Germany in 1934, and France and Britain, which concluded a non-aggression pact with Germany in 1938, are also Hitler's "allies"? Just don't wave about the division of Poland between Germany and the USSR. After all, Poland and Germany divided Czechoslovakia, and France and Britain refused Czechoslovakia military and political support, and forced Benes to accept the German conditions. By your logic, it turns out that Poland, Britain and France are also Hitler's "allies" wassat
                      4. kalibr
                        19 September 2021 10: 38
                        -13
                        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                        By the way, you consider the USSR and Germany between August 23, 1939 and June 22, 1941 "allies"

                        On the basis of the CONTRACT - no. Based on a secret protocol - YES!
                      5. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2021 10: 41
                        +5
                        It turns out that Poland, which concluded a non-aggression pact with Germany in 1934, and France and Britain, which concluded a non-aggression pact with Germany in 1938, are also Hitler's "allies"? Just don't wave about the division of Poland between Germany and the USSR. After all, Poland and Germany divided Czechoslovakia, and France and Britain refused Czechoslovakia military and political support, and forced Benes to accept German conditions. According to your logic, it turns out that Poland, Britain and France are also Hitler's "allies" wassat
                      6. mister-red
                        mister-red 19 September 2021 21: 14
                        +7
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                        By the way, you consider the USSR and Germany between August 23, 1939 and June 22, 1941 "allies"

                        On the basis of the CONTRACT - no. Based on a secret protocol - YES!

                        And where is there in the secret protocol written about the alliance? There are simply defined areas of interest. This can be done by both allies and enemies, so as not to start a war with each other.
                      7. your1970
                        your1970 19 September 2021 14: 58
                        +6
                        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                        That is, the buyer and the seller in the store are also partners.

                        In fact, according to the Civil Code of the Russian Federation, they are one hundred percent partners. They even have a written agreement - a receipt for payment for the goods.
                      8. sifgame
                        sifgame 23 September 2021 21: 55
                        +1
                        But the United States also considers Ukraine to be its ally
                      9. Foxmara
                        Foxmara 7 October 2021 13: 51
                        0
                        No. The vassal is not an ally. His role is to carry out the orders of the overlord.
                  2. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 19 September 2021 08: 22
                    +11
                    Quote: kalibr
                    Do you yourself have the opportunity to directly transfer the gold bullion to the supplier? Do you also have the opportunity with reliable people to send another batch to Kopp? Trotsky.

                    It is this phrase that says that it is a fake.
                    I will add - at the burial site in the Katyn forest, not only Mauser 7.65 cartridges were found, but also 6.35 cartridges, and all of them were produced by the German factory "Gecko".
                    NKVDeshniki used "Browning" for executions?
                    We started talking about Katyn, tell the whole truth, and not just what is beneficial to you. Throwing your shit on the fan again?
                    1. faiver
                      faiver 19 September 2021 09: 37
                      +8
                      Mauser 6,35 caliber was also enough, but this is not "Bolo" ..., you can remember and Korovin's pistol 6,35
                    2. kalibr
                      19 September 2021 10: 11
                      -8
                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                      NKVDeshniki used "Browning" for executions?

                      Could Korovin 6,35 mm?
                      1. Senior seaman
                        Senior seaman 20 September 2021 19: 51
                        0
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Could Korovin 6,35 mm?

                        Very unlikely. The cartridge is weak, there is no stopping effect. Of course, no one should be stopped during execution, but they themselves said that the work was nervous and unpleasant. By God, it's better to reload the revolver every seven shots than to release a clip of eight and never wait for the desired effect ...
                      2. kalibr
                        20 September 2021 20: 00
                        0
                        But they also found such casings there ...
                      3. Senior seaman
                        Senior seaman 20 September 2021 20: 22
                        +4
                        Yes, there is generally a lot of strange. From the notorious imported strings, with which the hands of the condemned were entangled, to these same cartridges and documents for the release of food for those who were supposedly already shot. Moreover, one can probably find an explanation for each fact separately, but there are too many of them ...
                        In general, the fact that a number of Poles were shot in the USSR is never a secret. The question is, who did it in Katyn? Poles are not interested in this. They decided everything for themselves long ago. Our leadership too. It is inconvenient to say that the documents dug up by Yakovlev are a fake, after Putin and Tusk were on their knees ...

                        To our pseudo-liberals (I'm not for you), the idea that Stalin may not be guilty of something seems seditious at all.
                        In general, I cannot but agree, we will never know the truth.
                        That and the purchase of Mauser .... thing, whatever one may say, is a status thing. Ponty have always been more expensive than money. It is also possible that in this way the money was brought to the right people. The firm is private.
                      4. kalibr
                        21 September 2021 06: 13
                        +2
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Yes, there is generally a lot of strange. From the notorious imported strings, with which the hands of the condemned were entangled, to these same cartridges and documents for the release of food for those who were supposedly already shot. Moreover, one can probably find an explanation for each fact separately, but there are too many of them ...
                        In general, the fact that a number of Poles were shot in the USSR is never a secret. The question is, who did it in Katyn? Poles are not interested in this. They decided everything for themselves long ago. Our leadership too. It is inconvenient to say that the documents dug up by Yakovlev are a fake, after Putin and Tusk were on their knees ...


                        To our pseudo-liberals (I'm not for you), the idea that Stalin may not be guilty of something seems seditious at all.
                        In general, I cannot but agree, we will never know the truth.
                        That and the purchase of Mauser .... thing, whatever one may say, is a status thing. Ponty have always been more expensive than money. It is also possible that in this way the money was brought to the right people. The firm is private.

                        Thank you Ivan! In my opinion, this is the best commentary today!
                      5. Wildcat
                        Wildcat 21 September 2021 14: 03
                        +1
                        "What and the purchase of Mauser ... thing, whatever one may say, is a status thing. Ponty have always been more expensive than money. It's also possible that in this way the money was brought to the right people. The company is private."
                        IMHO, there were comments that the C96 was chosen for greater accuracy compared to other pistols, a longer firing range (almost a kilometer was advertised) and a larger store capacity. 10 rounds was a lot for those times.
                        If I understand correctly, in the late 19th and early 20th centuries there weren't all these IPSC / IPDA things - a lot of magazines for one weapon, fast reloading, and so on.
                        All the advantages of magazines for an automatic pistol - almost instantaneous, compared to revolvers, multiple reloading were not obvious then. For example, we have a holster for Nagant with cartridges for 1 reload (that is still a sport) and TT - a holster with 1 spare magazine. And now the standard is 1 pistol, 2 magazines.
                        And loading the Mauser - by "one or a clip" was understandable by analogy with a rifle.
                        Well, and a status thing, dear, one of the most expensive pistols. Very good quality.

                        PS As for Katyn - well, as if there are no "irreparable doubts" ("Burdenko's commission" can be recalled, but better not.).



                      6. Old electrician
                        Old electrician 21 September 2021 17: 41
                        -2
                        All documents from the "Special Folder" are fake like a seven-ruble bill. You can talk in detail for a long time and reasonably. I'll tell you briefly. "Katynevedy" as with a written sack are worn with "sheets removed from minutes No. 13 of the meeting of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks", presenting them as proof of Stalin's bloodthirstiness. However, before paragraph 144 of the protocol on the execution of Poles, the falsifiers squeezed paragraph 135 to fill the empty space:
                        135. - About Comrade Tevosyan's commission.
                        1. To place orders for weapons in Germany, send a commission under the leadership of Comrade Tevosyan in the following composition (see appendix).
                        2. The NKVMF with the participation of the NKSP and NKV shall be responsible for the acceptance of the ship's hull, all weapons, mechanisms, and equipment included in the ship's equipment.
                        The completion of the ship is carried out by the NKSP as a general supplier and submitted for delivery in a complete set with all the weapons of the NKVMF.
                        3. Under the same conditions (as in clause 2), 15 inches are accepted. towers and their delivery by the People's Commissariat of Armament to the People's Commissariat of the Voenmorflot

                        Unlike consumer goods, the battleship-caliber gun turrets in clause 3/135 of the protocol, allegedly written before March 5, 1940, are not just piece goods, they are unique goods. Therefore, without options, the 15 inch towers mentioned in the protocol are German naval two-gun turret artillery systems with 380-mm SKC-34 (or SK C / 34) cannons. The German battleships Bismarck and Tirpitz were equipped with guns of this type. Before the invasion of the USSR, Hitler flirted with Stalin, trying to lull his vigilance. In the course of this game, the Krupp concern offered the USSR to buy from it "illiquid" towers, for which there is allegedly no customer. The offer was tempting, and in November 1940 (!) An agreement was signed, according to which the Krupp concern undertook to supply six 380-mm two-gun turrets to the USSR. They were planned to be installed on two heavy cruisers of Project 69 "Kronstadt". The Germans, of course, were not going to fulfill this order. Therefore, although the payments were made, the Soviet side did not receive the towers.
                        In the resolution of the Council of People's Commissars and the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks), issued on October 19, 1940 (!) "On the plan of military shipbuilding for 1941", it was written:
                        ... Not to produce new battleships and heavy cruisers, to oblige the NKSP to concentrate forces on the construction of the heavy cruisers "Kronstadt" and "Sevastopol", to set the date of their launching in the third quarter of 1942, the issue of the caliber of the main artillery for them cannot be resolved later than mid-November
                        .
                        For ardent supporters of the Poles, I would like to specifically explain that information about the cruisers of Project 69 "Kronstadt" can be easily found in Google.
                        The decision to shoot the Poles in clause 144 of the "Politburo protocol" was allegedly made on March 5, 1940. The question is, what acceptance of the "15 inch towers" could have been discussed in this protocol 8 months before the decision to arm the heavy cruisers of the "Kronstadt" series was made and the treaty was signed about the supply of weapons that the USSR never received ?! This is the best proof of the falsity of all the documents in the so-called "Special Package", since they all refer to Protocol No. 13 of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks). A fake can refer to a genuine document, a genuine document cannot refer to a fake!
                      7. The comment was deleted.
                      8. Old electrician
                        Old electrician 21 September 2021 17: 26
                        0
                        Katyn has long become a litmus test that allows to accurately identify Russophobes and the 5th column in Russia. So I'll start with a photo:

                        Favorite pistol I.V. Stalin. According to the version of the liberals, he personally shot Poles with this pistol in Katyn.
                        In 1916, under the Spanish order of GAU, Russia ordered and in 1917 France supplied us with 58345 pistols chambered for 7,65x17 Browning and 3 million cartridges for them. All of them went to the Bolsheviks. Taking into account the trophy, after the Civil War in the USSR, about 70 thousand pistols chambered for 7,65x17 Browning were passed around. For example, these are from the Spanish order:

                        3 million cartridges 7,65 x17 Browning was enough for a civilian one, with their remnants in 1940 it would have been possible to shoot all 400 thousand Polish prisoners, but the warranty period of cartridges is only 10 years. In passing, I note that the execution of innocent victims of political repression from the Mauser K-96 is an uncomfortable thing. When shot in the head at close range from the K-96, the brain will inevitably fly to the sides and, as a result, the untidy appearance of the gunman. Therefore, the revolver was preferable for executions.
                        Due to the expiration of the warranty period of 1917 cartridges, in 1927 licenses and machines were purchased from the German company DWM for the 17 Cartridge Plant in Podolsk and in 1929 it began production of cartridges 9x23 Steyer, 9x19 Parabellum, 9x17 Browning short, 7,63x25 Mauser, 7,65, 17x6,35 Browning and 16x1930 Browning. Since 7,65, the production of 17x7,65 Browning cartridges was also started at the Ulyanovsk Cartridge Plant named after I. Volodarsky. The production of 17x50 Browning cartridges in the USSR continued until the mid-XNUMXs. This fact excludes any myths about the purchase of Gecko cartridges in the pre-war period.
                        Now about Katyn. After the cruel defeat at Stalingrad, Hitler decided to take revenge at Kursk. Long before the start of this battle, the Nazis decided to start a propaganda campaign with the aim of destroying the anti-Hitler coalition. This is how Katyn was born. The success of this company was facilitated by the active cooperation of the fiercely Russophobic émigré Polish government in London with Germany. However, despite Churchill's anti-Sovietism, he was more eager to finish off Hitler than Stalin. Therefore, on June 4.06.1943, 5.07.1943, General Sikorsky died in a plane crash, on July 9.07.1943, XNUMX, the Battle of Kursk began, and on July XNUMX, XNUMX, the Allies landed in Sicily.
                        Now about Katyn.
                        The Katyn investigation was carried out by three commissions:
                        1. Polish Red Cross (PKK) from 15.04.1943/07.06.1943/XNUMX to XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX.
                        2. "International Commission" Butz from 29 to 30 April 1943.
                        3. Academician Burdenko in 1944.
                        All three commissions agreed only that the executions in Katyn were carried out with pistols chambered for 7,65x17 mm Browning by the German company Gecko (stamp Geco DD 7,65). It is impossible to dispute this fact, none of the sensible ones disputes it. Wild ones don't count. Immediately I warn you the cry "thrown up". The examinations of the "International Commission" and Burdenko showed that the blind wounds were caused by bullets from these cartridges.
                        Pistol cartridges in Germany until 1939 were produced separately for military and civilian consumers. The “civilian” consumers were the Gestapo, SD, SS, etc. human rights organizations. It should be noted that, in contrast, for example, to the famous DWM, the firm (rather a firm) Gecko specialized in the supply of civilian cartridges.
                        The Korean War broke out in 1950. In this war, Stalin's falcons began to kill Amerov's vultures with such frenzy that the world's first nuclear-weapon carrier, the B-29 strategic bomber, had to be removed from service as soon as possible. In retaliation, a special commission of the House of Representatives of the US Congress on Katyn was created in 1951, chaired by R.J. Madden (Madden Commission).
                        In 1951-1952, the Madden Commission meticulously searched for any documentary clue to accuse the USSR of the Katyn crime. In 1952, as part of this "investigation", representatives of the Madden Commission shook up Gecko's firm in Frankfurt am Main (American zone of occupation) and interrogated its President Genshov. Alas! The Commission did not find a single document in the Gecko firm proving the sale of 7,65x17 Browning cartridges to any of the countries of the world, including the USSR, Poland and the Baltic countries in the period from 1920 to 1940. Thus, it was proved by amers that Gecko's firm did not sell at all cartridges abroad during the interwar period. Moreover! Genshov verbally denied his certificate given by the Gestapo in 1943, in which he claimed that such cartridges were produced and sold abroad in 1922-1931. According to the new version of Genshaw, they were produced in 1934-1935 and sold to Eastern Europe. However, this is a lie! In Katyn, cartridges with a bimetallic sleeve were used. This is a wartime surrogate, the production of which was started in Germany in 1941. Such cartridges were not subject to storage and were ideal for the "hot work" of the SD and the Gestapo.
                        In the photo of Butz's Gestapo commission, cartridges from Katyn. Traces of corrosion are clearly visible on the sleeves. This is only possible if these are bimetallic casings, the production of which was started in Germany in 1941.

                        When asked why, in 1940, the Poles in Katyn were shot by the patrons of the Gecko firm of 1941 release, the liberals and Poles answer - he himself is a stupid person.
                      9. Wildcat
                        Wildcat 21 September 2021 17: 48
                        -2
                        Attention! Attention!
                        Old electrician! You are no longer surrounded!
                        Russophobes and 5-column passed by!
                        Major General wants to talk to you directly from the USSR! Listen to it and don't do anything wrong!
                      10. Old electrician
                        Old electrician 22 September 2021 14: 29
                        +3
                        When I look at people like sub. just. A.Yu. Yablokov, I sincerely enjoy the thought that people like him in '37 were put up against the wall. This is not an officer, but an erect person in uniform. Now for the details.
                        In 1991, Gorby instructed the USSR GVP to concoct a fake about the guilt of the NKVD in the execution of the Poles. The whole problem is that there has never been any evidence of the guilt of the NKVD. And vice versa. Poles in Katyn were shot with pistols chambered for 7,65x17 mm Browning by the German company Geko (stamp Geco DD 7,65). Gecko specialized in the supply of cartridges for the Gestapo, SD, etc. Whose ax is the killer. The NKVD did not have a single chance to get Geko's cartridges because Gecko did not sell cartridges abroad. In addition, similar cartridges were produced in the USSR, and the first one who would be shot by Gecko's cartridges would be the one who bought them for currency in Germany.
                        Cartridges 7,65x17 mm Browning Soviet production:

                        This is an unkillable proof of the guilt of the Germans, therefore, by order of Gorby, it had to be chatted up. The Senior Military Prosecutor of the Department of the Directorate of the Main Military Prosecutor's Office, sub. just. A.Yu. Yablokov. Yablokov's thought was as straightforward as a lamp post: to find someone who could be put under threats and forced to give the necessary testimony. I quote from Yablokov himself:
                        ... As a token of gratitude for this, as I hoped, he could give testimony of interest to the investigation. Sudoplatov was asked questions about the involvement of both himself and his subordinates in the Katyn crime. He denied it ...

                        Simply put, at first Yablokov wanted to make Sudoplatov a "perpetrator" witness. Sudoplatov was illegally repressed under N.S. Khrushchev and Yablokov hoped to force him to give the necessary "evidence" under the threat of reconsidering the old cases of Sudoplatov. If he refused, he threatened to re-qualify them as "aggravated murder." Those. guaranteed him a "tower" for refusing to participate in a Russophobic show. The chief of the Gestapo, daddy Müller, is spinning in his coffin with envy. What are you talking about 1937 ?! However, despite the real threat to his life, Sudoplatov refused Yablokov.
                        Then the former head of the NKVD in the Kalinin region, D.S. Tokarev. Unlike the lonely Sudoplatov, Tokarev had two adult daughters and complicated family relationships. Therefore, by threats against him and his family, the Gestapo man knocked out the necessary "testimony" from Tokarev. This is how the film was born, which you presented as "evidence". The transcript of this film has been translated into Polish. Then I use its reverse translation. Well, in reality, not a single Pole was shot in Mednoye, since there is not a single documentary confirmation of this. The myth that the Poles were “shot from the Walters in Mednoe” was born only because Mueller's comrades-in-arms found a scapegoat.
                        I sincerely respect Tokarev. He is a war veteran, one of the organizers of the partisan movement, committed a number of acts of sabotage in the German rear and, unlike Yablokov, did not betray his country. Therefore, taking advantage of Yablokov's professional illiteracy (Russophobe and illiteracy are synonyms), Tokarev shod him to the fullest. His "testimony" is a nail in the coffin of Goebbels' accusations.
                        The main thing that Yablokov wanted to hear from Tokarev was that executions similar to the Katyn one took place in the non-occupied territory of the USSR. It was too difficult for Yablokov to pronounce “7,65x17 mm Browning cartridges”. Therefore, he demanded that Tokarev "confess" that the Poles had been shot from Walter pistols. Tkachenko agreed:
                        Yablokov: Dmitry Stepanovich, what weapons did you and other officers of the NKVD have?
                        Tokarev: Full-time weapons - TT. True, I had a small pocket German pistol Walter. But when Blokhin, Sinegubov and Krivenko arrived, they brought a whole suitcase of pistols. It turned out that these pistols wear out quickly. Therefore, they brought a whole suitcase.
                        Yablokov: And which pistols?
                        Tokarev: Walter pistols, in my opinion, Walter.
                        Yablokov: And there were no others?
                        Tokarev: I do not remember. Maybe later there were others.
                        Yablokov: And what cartridges were for those pistols?
                        Tokarev: Well Walter - well-known pistols. Walter 2, and what caliber - I do not know ... once I knew.
                        Yablokov: Our cartridges are not suitable for him?
                        Tokarev: Our cartridges are not. Only German ...

                        In "gratitude" Yablokov "otmazy" Tkachenko from the charge of shooting the Poles. They were allegedly shot by Blokhin, Sinegubov and Krivenko.
                        This transcript is an "unkillable" argument for the Poles, but for an attempt to only doubt it, you can be filled with a face. Now let's look at what Tkachenko actually admitted. The specified by him pistol Walter 2 (Walter mod. No. 2) was developed under the cartridge 6,35x16 Browning. And where is the proof of the use of 7,65x17 Browning cartridges from the Gecko company, not only in Katyn and throughout the country, but even in Medny taken separately? - As it was not, and no. So the attempt to falsify the GVP to prove the guilt of the NKVD with a shameful ringing failed.
                        Such pearls Tkachenko sold Yablokov a carriage and a whole cart, therefore Tkachenko's "interview" is not proof of the guilt of the NKVD.
                        The story did not end there. Reading I. Yazhborovskaya, A. Yablokov, V. Parsadanov. "Katyn Syndrome in Soviet-Polish and Russian-Polish Relations":
                        ... From August 15 to August 29, 1991, in the dacha village of the KGB in the Tver region, 2 km from the village of Mednoe, also with the participation of representatives of Polish law enforcement agencies ... in 30 dug holes, bone remains belonging to at least 243 human corpses were found. Numerous objects found in the pits (parts of a Polish police uniform and various police and military paraphernalia, letters, receipts, scraps of newspapers with the dates of the spring of 1940, individual items, lists of prisoners of war in the Ostashkov camp ...)

                        From 1940 to 1991, 51 years passed. During this time, on the fields of former battles, not only wooden butts, but also rifle barrels turned into dust. But in Mednoye, 51 years later, "scraps of newspapers with the dates of the spring of 1940" were found. etc. At the same time, the book does not contain a single photograph of these very scraps of newspapers, Polish paraphernalia, etc. But there is a photograph of a Polish pastor in Mednoye with tarpaulin boots arr. 1942.



                        Prove that these remains in 1942 tarpaulin boots belong to Poles who were shot in 1940.
                        However, the story did not end there either. RF is not a sovereign state. Therefore, in 1994 the Poles held a Russophobic Sabbath in Mednoye, imitating an "investigation." The purpose of the "investigation" is to prove that in Mednoye they used the same cartridges as in Katyn.
                        During the excavation, they, using a drilling rig, delineated the burial. Even taking into account the fact that allegedly wartime criminals are buried there, this crime against morality overshadows in its meanness any fictitious crimes of the NKVD. Naturally, there was no question of any definition of nationality.
                        Polish installation for determining the nationality of corpses in mass graves.

                        To prove the use in the USSR of pistols cal. 7,65 the Poles stated that they found 162 cartridges with the DWM KK 479A stamp in Copper, i.e. firm DWM, not Gecko, and posted on the Internet a photo of freshly shot (!) casings. The fake was immediately exposed, but to the Poles and domestic Russophobes it is like water off a duck's back.
                        Photo of the cartridge case, according to the Poles, which lay in the ground for 53 years, and allegedly found in Mednoye:
                        [Center]
                      11. Wildcat
                        Wildcat 22 September 2021 14: 42
                        -1
                        Hooray!
                        Here it is, a normal controversy!
                        Here it is, Caliber's favorite clickbait!
                        I will deal with you and your feeble arguments in the evening, but for now, another major general is at your service:

                        Listen to him too and don't do anything bad!
                      12. The comment was deleted.
                      13. The comment was deleted.
                      14. Wildcat
                        Wildcat 24 September 2021 13: 53
                        -2
                        Nice, nice!
                        It's nice when the opponent is a little higher than the level of "vyvsevrite" and normally uses the Russian language! And an opponent who considers himself smarter than Putin, Medvedev, Yeltsin, Gorbachev and others before the Prosecutor General's Office of the Russian Federation is also nice. Such are found only in the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, or where is the nest there now?
                        winked
                        In the evening / on weekends, I'll take care of you, but for now, a short summary:
                        1. With the "cartridge version" you, as a true faithful "Mukhinets", of course you cannot jump off and it's nice, you will be able to explain from different sides the obvious fact that Gecko's cartridges were in the USSR as well.
                        2. In screaming about Russophobia, Vlasovites, anti-Sovietism you tie, seriously. I offered you two whole major generals, besides everything, are they also anti-Soviet Russophobes? Only you and Mukhin keep the defense of the USSR?
                        3. "There are more than enough recommendations on where to put such" evidence "in the Russian language. - well, of course, voice it!
                        4. As an argument "they are Poles, they are bad as they need it" - well, expected, but very weak.
                        5. "Such Russophobes like you, deceived by national socialist ideas, are the very rabid killers who killed and continue to kill Russians en masse. you are fighters against communism. For you, killing Russians is the norm. " hmm, let’s not drag your fantasies to me. It's you, "I sincerely enjoy the thought that people like him were put up against the wall in '37." By the way, think well, if you can still be helped with your "sincere pleasures" - contact the nearest medical institution, state your thoughts there. You will definitely find an interlocutor and a specialist in your profile.
                    3. kalibr
                      19 September 2021 10: 13
                      -9
                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                      It is this phrase that says that it is a fake.

                      Yes, you have no price. On one phrase on the Web, you can determine a fake document or not. You would work in the RGVA or in the archives of the Ministry of Defense.
                    4. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                      Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 September 2021 19: 43
                      +14
                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                      In the Atyn forest, not only Mauser 7.65 cartridges were found, but also 6.35 cartridges, all of which were produced by the German factory "Gecko".
                      NKVDeshniki used "Browning" for executions?

                      Since 1935, the NKVD used a revolver with a 7,62mm cartridge to carry out capital punishment sentences. The verdict was carried out indoors. The convict was moved to a specially equipped room (in most cases, a basement). It was placed facing a steel door upholstered in three layers of inch planks. A similar door was closed behind him and through a window at head level they shot in the back of the head. In the group execution of the sentence, special teams with Mosin rifles were used. Naturally, the sentence was carried out at the shooting range. Today these are the places of mass graves of the repressed. But let's be frank from rifles indoors and pistols (revolvers) in the forest never fired. In fact, the execution of a sentence is a strictly ordered circular action. So the use of Mauser and Walters in Katyn by the OGPU staff is at the level of "one grandmother said." In the forest, they would use rifles according to the circular. Indoors - revolvers. By the way, it takes about 15 minutes to carry out one sentence, but now estimate how long it took to shoot 15000 Poles according to the rules.
                      If the teams of the Red Army were involved, then again we run into the order of the execution of the sentence of the tribunal and the rifles (carbines) of Mosin!
                      But the practice of execution of the sentence by the Germans says the opposite. In all cases a pistol.
                      Well, somewhere like that. By the way, I don't give a damn about who and how shot the Poles. It was necessary. I am sincerely ready to "fight to the last Pole, Hungarian or Finn." The main thing is not to touch my compatriots. But the truth of Katyn still requires its studied. No speculation and hysterics!
                      1. Siberian54
                        Siberian54 21 September 2021 06: 46
                        0
                        Vladislav \ Liberasty people and non-people are all with distorted logic: machine guns and roaring cars in a calm peaceful country for the execution of fifty or a hundred enemies of the people ..and pistols for the execution of 15,000 people in a tense moment of military conflictIt does not fit into their logic that the Germans do not need the officers of the captured country, and we leave them the opportunity to escape in the confusion of war, give them the opportunity to organize resistance to the Germans (the enemy of my enemy ...)did not use it, who is the doctor!)
              2. ivan2022
                ivan2022 19 September 2021 08: 01
                +8
                Quote: kalibr
                I think this is for the Germans to appreciate it.

                What else do you think? What do you think is an argument in discourse? Mauser had the highest ranks in the NKVD. And the executions were carried out mainly from "Browning" or "Walter"

                And I’m thinking; “What were the motives for the shooting in Katyn and the most important thing- what is the reason for the complete lack of interest of compatriots in motives? "
                1. kalibr
                  19 September 2021 10: 09
                  -4
                  Quote: ivan2022
                  What do you think is an argument in discourse?

                  The man asked, I answered. This is elementary politeness.
                2. kalibr
                  19 September 2021 10: 26
                  -2
                  Quote: ivan2022
                  discourse

                  By the way, you used the word discourse incorrectly. Discourse or discourse (fr. Discours) in the general sense - speech, the process of linguistic activity. In a special, socio-humanitarian sense, it is a socially conditioned organization of the speech system. We argue. Therefore, the word discussion should be used.
                  1. zenion
                    zenion 19 September 2021 17: 53
                    -1
                    kalibr. In ancient times, a philosopher said that when there is nothing to say in response, they begin to cling to individual words and the kind of opponent. You may be the caliber, but the barrel you climb into is not your caliber. You hang out in it.
                    1. kalibr
                      19 September 2021 17: 58
                      -1
                      Quote: zenion
                      kalibr. In ancient times, a philosopher said that when there is nothing to say in response, they begin to cling to individual words and the kind of opponent. You may be the caliber, but the barrel you climb into is not your caliber. You hang out in it.

                      And I don't have to say anything in return. I wrote everything in the material published here. You just need to use the right words. And then someone will see - will repeat. And yet, I will remember your philosophical wisdom of "one philosopher", when my opponents will just as well begin to cling to the words and my biography. Or will you correct them yourself?
                  2. Alexfly
                    Alexfly 20 September 2021 15: 23
                    +1
                    Sorry, Calibrische, I do not agree, the word Discours has the primary meaning of discussing a certain topic by a certain group of people, look through La Rousse for this, your argument is only in fifth place ...
                3. Sling cutter
                  Sling cutter 19 September 2021 11: 07
                  +7
                  Quote: ivan2022
                  And here I’m thinking: "What were the motives for the execution in Katyn, and most importantly, what is the reason for the complete lack of interest of compatriots in the motives?"

                  Only Nazi Germany had motives and the evil genius of propaganda Goebbels used the Katyn execution in full, and his "ideas" are used to this day and the worst thing is that in our country, including at the highest level, too.
                4. Alf
                  Alf 19 September 2021 22: 21
                  +1
                  Quote: ivan2022
                  And here I’m thinking: "What were the motives for the execution in Katyn, and most importantly, what is the reason for the complete lack of interest of compatriots in the motives?"

                  Maybe because the "executed" were met quite alive even during the war?
                  Мотивы

                  Hello Kamrad!
              3. paul3390
                paul3390 19 September 2021 10: 14
                +11
                Issuing expensive rare Mauser for execution is like shooting the author for such nonsense, say from TIKKA or SAKO .. Ponto, of course, but - why ???
                1. kalibr
                  19 September 2021 10: 35
                  -4
                  They were purchased from 20 to 30 thousand, or even more. Considering how many employees of the NKVD apparatus were in the center, it was not at all uncommon.
                  1. paul3390
                    paul3390 19 September 2021 10: 43
                    +11
                    Did you yourself hold the Mauser in your hands? I assure you - a very cumbersome and difficult to maintain machine. To give it out to performers is just nonsense. And most importantly - why ??? I don't even want to consider Shizu about the hard-to-rechargeable revolver. For you obviously did not hold it in your hands either.

                    How do you imagine the performance? An endless conveyor belt, wandering in a chain to the place of execution? Then - isn't it easier to put a machine gun? How were all the executed people brought to the place? Again - so that you do not come up with it, and each must be identified in advance, to make sure that it corresponds to the sentence, there are still a lot of formalities. So - the Mauser was definitely not needed in FIG. And the revolvers would be great. Be in a hurry, so that there is not enough time to recharge, there was no need.

                    Again, not all Mausers went to the NKVD. A significant part - the same to border guards and specialists. So - he was still a rather rare weapon, whatever one may say.
                    1. kalibr
                      19 September 2021 10: 46
                      -1
                      Quote: paul3390
                      For you obviously did not hold it in your hands either.

                      And not obviously here was my article about him and about many other pistols and revolvers, with a photo, and I was just holding all of them in my hands. However, you have been registered on the site since the 19th year. And I have been cooperating with him since the 14th. So you are forgiven for not knowing. And memory again ...
                      1. paul3390
                        paul3390 19 September 2021 11: 06
                        +15
                        Holding in hands and disassembling are different things. Not a simple unit. I would - to the Chekist-executor of the horse-radish entrusted. For - there is not the slightest need for this. If you really need reloading, the TT would be perfect. In general, the picture of the execution being drawn is solely the fruit of your violent imagination .. You had to think of it - like reloading the revolver, they say, there was no time, that's why they gave out the Mauser .. I haven't met such nonsense for a long time, even among the most fierce anti-Sovietists ..
                      2. kalibr
                        19 September 2021 13: 41
                        -6
                        Paul. That is, now you no longer claim that "I did not hold it in my hands," but you think that I did not understand it. Yes, the Mauser did not hold or disassemble. But with a revolver, it's another matter. But then read the article CAREFULLY, without speculating on your own. Where is it written that the Mausers were given from the fact that the revolvers take a long time to reload? It is written that there is no evidence that they were used specifically for executions. Could you? Yes they could! Are they more convenient to recharge than a revolver? Yes, it's more convenient. But there is no direct evidence of this, as well as the finding of the casings from them proves nothing. The result - "there are more questions than answers." Any literate person will read only this there. A dreamer - whatever your heart desires. But you don't have to be such a dreamer.
                      3. Wildcat
                        Wildcat 19 September 2021 12: 25
                        +1
                        hi
                        By the way, these Mausers are of extraordinary quality, many of them still work. Now I will find photos and post them. winked
                      4. Wildcat
                        Wildcat 19 September 2021 13: 43
                        +1
                        Strange, but the grip of the Mauser C96 is comfortable, but the loading is "baggy".



                      5. hhurik
                        hhurik 20 September 2021 00: 06
                        +2
                        Is this a joke about the "comfortable grip" of the C96? wink A more inconvenient shape of the handle among the bullets still needs to be looked for, constantly strives to bite the barrel and bite the skin with the trigger between the fingers when the grip changes. How they fired effectively without the help of a butt at all - FIG knows.
                      6. Wildcat
                        Wildcat 21 September 2021 18: 12
                        -2
                        Quote: hhurik
                        Is this a joke about the "comfortable grip" of the C96? wink A more inconvenient shape of the handle among the bullets still needs to be looked for, constantly strives to bite the barrel and bite the skin with the trigger between the fingers when the grip changes. How they fired effectively without the help of a butt at all - FIG knows.

                        No, the grip, of course, is not like the orthopedic handle. But it is more convenient than the TT, for example, or some modern pistols with thick handles and a long distance to the trigger. A bit unusual, unusual, slightly cumbersome, but nothing complicated (unlike some Desert Eagle .50AE wassat ).
                        In terms of the mass put forward a little forward, it is similar to the options with "weights", which is also generally good. And the sighting line is long, the rear sight is comfortable.
                      7. Wildcat
                        Wildcat 19 September 2021 14: 01
                        +2
                        And just beautiful options for the Mauser C96 (sorry for the glare on the glass)

                    2. Wildcat
                      Wildcat 19 September 2021 12: 23
                      +1
                      It would seem that everything is already known about Katyn, and from Putin to Gorbachev has been commented on. But no, many are still tormented by the accursed unknown ...
                      1. zenion
                        zenion 19 September 2021 17: 56
                        +5
                        When the Germans called specialists from all over the world, it turned out by chance that the cartridges found there were released in Germany in August 1941. The Italian could not keep his mouth shut and was hit by a car on the sidewalk, the car was not found.
                      2. Wildcat
                        Wildcat 19 September 2021 22: 52
                        +1
                        Hmm ..
                        Hard case. Can I link to the source? Especially touched by the story of the Italian.
                    3. your1970
                      your1970 19 September 2021 15: 02
                      +4
                      Quote: paul3390
                      How do you imagine the performance? An endless conveyor belt, wandering in a chain to the place of execution? Then - isn't it easier to put a machine gun? How were all the executed people brought to the place? Again - so that you do not come up with it, and each must be identified in advance, to make sure that it corresponds to the sentence, there are still a lot of formalities. So - the Mauser was definitely not needed in FIG. And the revolvers would be great. Be in a hurry, so that there is not enough time to recharge, there was no need.

                      Regardless of who shot it, it takes a long time to shoot a large enough crowd of people.
          2. Catfish
            Catfish 19 September 2021 07: 35
            +19
            Vyacheslav, well, you know why this particular cartridge 7,62x25 was chosen, some of your opponents would only have to look at the caliber of the Mosin rifle and the Maxim machine gun, the main weapon of the Red Army, for some of your opponents.
            And it turns out that almost the whole world was smarter than our generals, having adopted the 9x19 "Para" cartridge for p / n, and ours survived until that only in the XNUMXst century. laughing
            1. Kot_Kuzya
              Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2021 07: 46
              -1
              Well, actually, there were Lugers and chambered for 7,65 * 21. So if the Bolsheviks were looking for a pistol with a similar caliber under the Soviet 7,62, they would have chosen the Luger chambered for 7,65 * 21.
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 19 September 2021 07: 55
                +13
                The production of barrels for 7,62 mm caliber in Russia has long been worked out and the defective ones in the Union were simply cut to fit the length of pistol and p / n barrels. And for 7,65, there is already a different technology and lack of unification.
                1. Kot_Kuzya
                  Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2021 08: 04
                  -10
                  So the Mauser caliber was not the Soviet 7,62, but 7,63. So the Mauser cartridges were not suitable for firing from the Soviet barrel.
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 19 September 2021 08: 15
                    +19
                    Have you ever heard that in different countries the diameter of the trunk is measured by the fields and by the rifling. From this there is a difference in diameter, though insignificant.
                    1. Kot_Kuzya
                      Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2021 09: 07
                      -6
                      Quote: Sea Cat
                      Have you ever heard that in different countries the diameter of the trunk is measured by the fields and by the rifling. From this there is a difference in diameter, though insignificant.

                      Then the difference between 7,65 and 7,62 is even less important. They are completely different, not just 0,03mm.
                  2. Nikolaevich I
                    Nikolaevich I 19 September 2021 08: 54
                    +18
                    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                    So the Mauser caliber was not the Soviet 7,62, but 7,63

                    Bullet diameter TT - 7,85mm


                    Mauser cartridge case length - 25.15mm

                    The length of the cartridge case TT - 24,7mm


                    Mauser cartridge length - 34,9mm

                    Cartridge length TT - 34.85mm


                    The width of the groove of the Mauser cartridge - 2,8mm

                    Groove width of the TT chuck - 3,2mm


                    The length of the case body from the bottom to the slope of the Mauser cartridge - 19,2mm

                    The length of the case body from the bottom to the slope of the TT cartridge is 19,53mm


                    The angle of the slope of the cartridge case Mauser - 16gr24min

                    The angle of the slope of the cartridge case TT - 19gr.


                    Mauser cartridge capsule socket - 4,48mm (Boxer-type capsule)

                    The socket for the TT cartridge capsule - 4,92mm (Berdan-type capsule)



                    So far, the sizes, although they differ, are insignificant and not important. Conclusion - the cartridges are different, but still interchangeable.


                    Much more important is that inside the case - the internal volume and charge of the powder.

                    Internal volume of the Mauser cartridge case - 1,1 cm3

                    The internal volume of the cartridge case Mauser with a planted bullet - 0,97 cm3


                    Internal volume of the cartridge case TT - 1,05 cm3

                    The inner volume of the TT cartridge case with a planted bullet (lead core) - 0,93 cm3

                    Internal volume of the TT cartridge case with a planted bullet (steel core) - 0,87 cm3


                    This is where the fundamental difference between the cartridges is revealed. The smaller the volume of the case, the higher the peak pressure of the gases will be with the same charge of propellant ...

                    Peak pressure of Mauser cartridge gases - 1800kg / cm3

                    Peak gas pressure of TT cartridge (bullet with lead core) - 1910kg / cm3

                    Peak gas pressure of TT cartridge (bullet with steel core) - 2070kg / cm3



                    The peak pressure of the powder gases of the TT cartridge is 6-15% higher. First of all, due to the use of a different charge of gunpowder, in the second - due to the difference in the internal volume of the sleeve. The rate of burning of propellants is also slightly different - a “faster” gunpowder is used in the TT cartridge, the peak gas pressure occurs when the bullet has advanced 65 mm along the barrel ...
                    Hence the conclusions: you can shoot from a TT pistol with a Mauser cartridge ... but it's better not to "get carried away" with this! Since there are still differences ... You can shoot a TT cartridge from a Mauser with a lead bullet ... (Shoot once ... and calm down! "steel" bullet! Also, do not forget that 7,62x25 cartridges designed for submachine guns (PPSh-41, for example ...) are more powerful (!) Cartridges for pistols!
                    PS By the way, the Mauser cartridge (7,63x25) is based on the Borchard 7,65x25 cartridge .....
                    1. The leader of the Redskins
                      The leader of the Redskins 19 September 2021 09: 17
                      +10
                      Thank you, Nikolaevich ... They explained it in detail, but I have never heard of Borchard.
                    2. Sling cutter
                      Sling cutter 19 September 2021 09: 25
                      +6
                      Quote: Nikolaevich I

                      Nikolaevich I (Vladimir)

                      Vladimir! Respect! good drinks
                      1. Nikolaevich I
                        Nikolaevich I 19 September 2021 09: 47
                        +8
                        What am I? feel Thanks to the Internet! Yes
                      2. Sling cutter
                        Sling cutter 19 September 2021 09: 50
                        +2
                        Quote: Nikolaevich I
                        What am I? Thanks to the Internet!

                        Uh, no, don't be shy! Happy holiday! drinks
                      3. Region-25.rus
                        Region-25.rus 19 September 2021 12: 26
                        +5
                        What am I? feel Thanks to the Internet! yes
                        so the Internet, you know, is there such a thing that you can find gold, or you can find a bunch of feces. And someone is looking for the first, and someone exclusively for the second wink
                    3. kalibr
                      19 September 2021 10: 07
                      +3
                      A very nice addition. Thank you!
                    4. Wildcat
                      Wildcat 19 September 2021 14: 50
                      +6
                      hi
                      "Also, do not forget that 7,62x25 cartridges designed for submachine guns (PPSh-41, for example ...) are more powerful (!) Cartridges for pistols!" - by the way, can you comment on this statement with links to sources? Mentioned about it constantly came across, but nowhere in the documents was found.
                      And similar mentions about different cartridges for MP38 / MP40 and P08 / P38. Any comments?
                      1. Nikolaevich I
                        Nikolaevich I 19 September 2021 15: 32
                        +3
                        Quote: Wildcat
                        There were constant references to this, but nowhere in the documents was it found.

                        Since 1942, the production of 7,62x25 cartridges has been established specifically for submachine guns ...
                        The pressure reached 2200 kg / cm3
                        The data is taken from an article that used several sources ... Unfortunately, I am busy right now and cannot view these sources ...
                      2. Wildcat
                        Wildcat 19 September 2021 15: 33
                        +2
                        Thank you!
                        Interesting question ..
                        hi
                    5. Gunfighter95
                      Gunfighter95 22 September 2021 13: 15
                      +4
                      On the set of the Arsenal program, dedicated to the S96 Mauser, I had to shoot TT cartridges with a conventional jacketed bullet. The Mauser's at that time were simply not imported into the country. I don’t know how things are now.
                      Fired 100 rounds (10 clips of 10 rounds).
                      The "old man" was functioning normally. Despite the fact that the barrel was also blown.
                      Follow the links to watch shooting, etc.
                      And the material on C96 is more interesting ...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfjTGR__fks

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6TnYR63sJE

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cElzBCIFsGw

                      In shooting galleries and now they do not bother - they shoot with standard TT-shny.
                      1. Wildcat
                        Wildcat 23 September 2021 13: 55
                        0
                        good
                        Great video, I'll save it to bookmarks!
                        The video can be inserted directly into the site when a comment is being written - the second button at the top right.
                        "They don't bother even now in shooting ranges - they shoot with standard TT-shny." - that's how it is, but it turns out that not all "TTshnye cartridges" are "equally useful" for TT, S96 and PPSh / PPS ... feel
        2. CTABEP
          CTABEP 19 September 2021 07: 19
          +3
          Wrong. The heavier 9mm bullet loses speed more slowly, and lo and behold - at distances of 150-200m it is approximately comparable to the 7,62mm bullet. And the difference in muzzle energy between the MP-38/40 and the PPSh-41 is insignificant.
          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2021 07: 25
            -9
            Quote: CTABEP
            Wrong. The heavier 9mm bullet loses speed more slowly, and lo and behold - at distances of 150-200m it is roughly comparable to the 7,62mm bullet

            Well, that's it, then everything is massively switched back to cartridge 7,62 * 39, because the bullet of such a cartridge loses speed more slowly and at some distance catches up with the 5,45 bullet in flight speed wassat ... Do you know that the range of a direct shot for a bullet is 5,45, which is on the chest, which is on the running figure 100 meters further? And this is a huge advantage!
        3. ssergey1978
          ssergey1978 19 September 2021 08: 27
          0
          Apparently based on your logic, all items chambered for 9x9
          19
        4. Avior
          Avior 20 September 2021 08: 15
          +1
          And on this occasion, the vast majority of PP in the world chambered for 9 * 19?
          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 20 September 2021 08: 20
            -2
            Quote: Avior
            And on this occasion, the vast majority of PP in the world chambered for 9 * 19?

            What PPs from the times of WWII chambered for 9 * 19? The PPSh, PPD and PPS have a TT-shny cartridge, and Thompson and Oiler have a 45 caliber. The Japanese Type 100 has its own 8 * 22 cartridge. Cartridge 9 * 19 only for MP-38/40/41, for STEN and Suomi. Is this the "overwhelming majority"?
            1. Avior
              Avior 20 September 2021 11: 37
              +3
              Both Thompson and Oiler were under 9 mm.
              But at that time, each side made the PP under the cartridge that was massively in service in the country.
              In the future, we gained experience, everything fell into place and almost all PP steel 9 mm
      2. Andrey VOV
        Andrey VOV 19 September 2021 07: 15
        +1
        But there was also Fedorov's experience ..
    2. Gardamir
      Gardamir 19 September 2021 07: 46
      +3
      I propose to introduce the title of anti-Soviet of the century on the website. There is a first candidate.
      When asked to talk about purchases from Western sanctioners, he will remain silent.
      Let him tell how his favorite democrats bought iveco, they really wanted to buy mistrals. Compare the situation after the civil and now.
      1. kalibr
        19 September 2021 10: 01
        -8
        Quote: Gardamir
        Let him tell how his beloved democrats bought iveco, they really wanted to buy mistrals

        Iveco and mistrals are different things, they cannot be lumped together. But if you ask, then why not. But if you are in a hurry to find out about the Mistral, then contact the magazine "Science and Technology", there were several articles about the ship itself, and about its purchase and sale.
      2. kalibr
        19 September 2021 10: 03
        -7
        Quote: Gardamir
        about procurement now

        I can't tell you. Media information is not a source. And it has not yet been deposited in the archives. You can look at the publications in our and foreign media for yourself and write a gorgeous article about it. But ... with reference to the media. You will not have any other sources.
        1. Gardamir
          Gardamir 19 September 2021 11: 39
          +4
          Media information is not a source
          How many people have died in Russia since 1914? How many enterprises were destroyed as a result of the war unleashed by the Entente. but later for some reason named civil. You condemn the Soviet government in everything. But here's an example for you, the plant was founded in 1943. it reached its design capacity in 1945. Closed in 2019
          https://youtu.be/A268dsV8QEI
          1. kalibr
            19 September 2021 13: 44
            -3
            And what does this have to do with it?
            1. Gardamir
              Gardamir 19 September 2021 14: 10
              +7
              And what does this have to do with it?
              Well, you accuse the Bolsheviks of that. that they, knowing that in 20 years the Germans would attack Soviet Russia, still paid the future invaders in gold. And here is a real example, those who destroy the production of the country and trade with possible enemies, but you obviously need archives from the future.
              1. kalibr
                19 September 2021 15: 39
                -3
                Quote: Gardamir
                Well, you accuse the Bolsheviks of that. that they, knowing that in 20 years the Germans would attack Soviet Russia, still paid the future invaders in gold.

                How did you write it? Accidentally not under a degree? Where I blamed someone. This is your strange logic: then it was possible to trade with possible enemies, but now it is impossible? But there is a difference ... Then they could attack us with an unpredictable result. Now they cannot. Rather, the result is predictable. Therefore, it is better to trade.
                1. Gardamir
                  Gardamir 19 September 2021 16: 00
                  +3
                  Where I blamed someone.
                  Afterthought is certainly an interesting thing. Now everyone knows that the Germans attacked the Soviet Union. And who knew about this year in the 30s? Obviously, of course, you are not accusing, you are implying that the Bolsheviks should have known already in the 20s that the Germans would attack ..
                  But here's a simple example. The Turks shot down our plane, and in the shops there were not only Turkish tomatoes, but also zucchini, although they told otherwise on TV.
                  And my logic is normal. I try to understand the past, but today I cannot understand. They condemn the leaders of the past, while actively arming their enemies. Then the country got up, now they lower it.
        2. Alf
          Alf 19 September 2021 22: 33
          +3
          Quote: kalibr
          And it has not yet been deposited in the archives.

          Are you rushing into the archives? You once talked about the bombing of the retreating units of the Red Army by our aviation, and when I asked for evidence, they began to say that the archives were closed because of C19, then that they did not answer by email, and then completely fell silent.
          1. kalibr
            20 September 2021 06: 22
            +2
            Basil! How much do you need to explain in Russian that the materials arrive in the archives 10 years after the events themselves. This is called the statute of limitations. Based on this, I answered Gardamir. I also answered you in due time and I will not repeat myself. He asked me to write about today. And the documents about today will be available only in 10 years. Explained easily? And today, neither the RGVA nor the Ministry of Defense are working on such requests. ALL!
            1. Alf
              Alf 20 September 2021 20: 09
              +1
              Quote: kalibr
              How much do you need to explain in Russian that the materials come to the archives 10 years after the events themselves.

              I did not raise this topic, there is no need to translate the topic. What about bombing? Also 10 years have not passed? Or there is nothing to confirm the next attack on the fan?
      3. vladcub
        vladcub 19 September 2021 12: 39
        +2
        In fact, the UDC turned out to be quite necessary. Why specifically chose the "Mistral" FIG knows. In addition to France, UDC are made by: Italy, South Korea. Perhaps Mistral was offered a "commission" to someone?
        1. vl903
          vl903 26 September 2021 22: 00
          0
          France did not condemn the 0808 war, and before the elections we helped the president and ordered mistrals, although they were not needed
      4. smaug78
        smaug78 19 September 2021 20: 00
        -2
        And also the title "hurray-pipidastre". The first candidate is
    3. knn54
      knn54 19 September 2021 09: 04
      +6
      Mauser "was VERY comfortable where the uniform did not allow carrying a rifle and pouches.
      During WWI, "Mausers" were purchased in England even in Japan for special parts - aviation automobiles, scooters.
      For the above reason, he became popular among the "revolutionary sailors who went ashore in 1917-1918. In particular, from the scooters" Mauser in the shoe "TOGETHER with leather jackets migrated to the Soviet commissars and the Cheka.
      By the way, the Mausers were very popular among the Basmachi as well. and among domestic criminals - Purses, Panteleev ...
      1. hhurik
        hhurik 20 September 2021 00: 17
        0
        Come on, the tsarist police quite used bullets for themselves - that's inherited and passed on to the punitive organs of the Soviets.
    4. vladcub
      vladcub 19 September 2021 10: 02
      +2
      Kuzya's controversial statement "in pistols - machine guns." In 1920 - 21 years of the RSFR (the second C was added in December 1922) there was no time for submachine guns
    5. san99san
      san99san 24 September 2021 14: 00
      0
      When the Bolsheviks began to buy Mauser, they did not even think about the production of submachine guns. If anything, then the first Soviet-made submachine gun was developed for a revolver revolver cartridge slightly modified by crimping the muzzle of the sleeve.
  2. mark1
    mark1 19 September 2021 06: 43
    0
    The most interesting thing - how many were purchased in pieces, Vyacheslav did not indicate, and to find out how many copies are now in storage (and they are there, acquaintances confirm and approve at least for the RChBZ) ... this is probably a big military secret
    1. kalibr
      19 September 2021 06: 53
      0
      Quote: mark1
      The most interesting thing - how many were purchased in pieces, Vyacheslav did not indicate.

      The data varies. There are data 20 thousand, there are 30 thousand. Naturally, I cannot say which figure is more accurate.
      1. mark1
        mark1 19 September 2021 06: 58
        +3
        I also came across such data (not very sure). Probably this amount remained in warehouses after the war (due to trophies)
    2. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 19 September 2021 07: 54
      +12
      How much in storage will be difficult to determine. Under the USSR, "Mauser", as well as other captured / imported weapons "were stored not in one place, but in various arsenals of military districts. After the collapse of the Union, some of them moved to neighboring states.
      And then sometimes "little articles" pop up as "people close to them" were awarded either a "Mauser" or a "Thompson" ...
  3. Andrey VOV
    Andrey VOV 19 September 2021 06: 45
    +2
    Nice pistol .. It's a pity I didn't have a chance to shoot from it
    1. kalibr
      19 September 2021 06: 59
      +5
      Quote: Andrey VOV
      It's a pity I didn't have a chance to shoot from him

      Now there is a pneumatic in which the movement of the shutter is imitated during a shot and even partial disassembly is allowed, similar to the original. Under the balls ...
      1. Andrey VOV
        Andrey VOV 19 September 2021 07: 13
        +6
        It's not that ... the sound, the smell of gunpowder ... some kind of inner sensation ..
        1. vladcub
          vladcub 19 September 2021 11: 02
          +1
          And the weight is completely different
        2. Region-25.rus
          Region-25.rus 19 September 2021 12: 30
          +1
          It's not that ... the sound, the smell of gunpowder ... some kind of inner sensation.
          that's for sure)) But when "shooting" balls of 4,5 mm from such a device -

          I had a bruise in the place where the butt was resting laughing And when the ball ricocheted off the concrete wall and whistled past my head, I urgently bought additional goggles)))
      2. Catfish
        Catfish 19 September 2021 07: 27
        +7
        Good morning, Vyacheslav! hi
        A normal article, in spite of the fact that so much has been written about these "Mausers". smile
        There are a couple of questions in the text:
        1 /.
        Subsequently, pistols of earlier releases began to be altered for this model of weapons, moreover, not only the 7,63-mm caliber, but also the 9-mm Parabellum pistols.

        Typo? Perhaps you meant that you were remaking those Mauser pistols that were originally fired in 9mm Parabellum rounds? And it turns out that the P.08 pistols were castrated for some reason.
        2 /.
        The design of the safety catch was also different, the flag of which could now be fixed in three positions.

        And why did the 1926 Mauser need a three-position fuse, it didn’t have automatic fire. The model "Mauser M712 Schnellfeuer" with the ability to fire in bursts appeared only in 1932.
        ... pneumatic ... partial disassembly similar to the original is allowed

        I remember my first disassembly of the "Mauser" in the museum, figuratively speaking, I just got worn out inserting the removed firing mechanism unit into place, there was no instruction. But still figured it out. wink
        1. kalibr
          19 September 2021 07: 49
          +2
          Quote: Sea Cat
          P.08 pistols were castrated for some reason.

          Exactly as it is written. Long-barreled "artillery models" were cut off!
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 19 September 2021 08: 08
            +1
            This is the first time I hear about it, but everything, of course, could be. request
        2. kalibr
          19 September 2021 07: 50
          +2
          It is necessary to look at the source, I will not tell you now. The material was written two weeks ago. I do not remember.
        3. The leader of the Redskins
          The leader of the Redskins 19 September 2021 07: 56
          +4
          Good morning. You, damn it, can only be envied!
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 19 September 2021 08: 01
            +8
            Yes, I didn’t have a chance to shoot from the Mauser, there were a dozen of them in the department, but everyone had holes drilled in their trunks as much as a centimeter in diameter. Idiocy so disfigure weapons, but, they said that in some peripheral museums, even the swords of the checkers were broken in half. This does not fit in my head at all.
            1. The leader of the Redskins
              The leader of the Redskins 19 September 2021 08: 23
              +10
              Well, it didn’t fit into someone’s heads that the kitchen knife was the main weapon of murder in the country! Everyone thought that hot heads at the sight of a whole checker and an un-drilled "Mauser" would go to the Winter take again. laughing
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 19 September 2021 08: 27
                +4
                Yes, according to the principle "it is better to overlook than not to be overlooked", a lot of things have been done by these vigils in our country.
            2. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 19 September 2021 08: 47
              +9
              that in some peripheral museums, even the swords of the checkers were broken in half. This does not fit in my head at all.
              You will not believe, Uncle Kostya, how ancient this tradition is!

              1. Catfish
                Catfish 19 September 2021 08: 58
                +2
                Yes, they tied it in a knot on the bottom! laughing
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 19 September 2021 09: 08
                  +7
                  Yes. Perhaps in the storerooms of the State Historical Museum you met with similar samples. Specifically, these, from the Berlin Museum of Prehistory. Thus, the early Celts protected themselves from their own dead.
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 19 September 2021 09: 27
                    +2
                    No, I have not seen this here.
        4. motorized rifle
          motorized rifle 19 September 2021 09: 01
          +3
          Typo? Perhaps you meant that you were remaking those Mauser pistols that were originally fired in 9mm Parabellum rounds? And it turns out that the P.08 pistols were castrated for some reason.

          This is not a typo, it is a mistake. Nothing has been altered. Why, if back in 1907 a small batch of 9.mm special cartridge with a cylindrical sleeve was released. The muzzle energy of which was 667J (67kgf m), for 7.63mm bullets it was 520J (53kgf m) This batch was mainly exported.
          Moreover, the barrel cannot be altered from a larger to a smaller caliber. Since 1916, the Mauser went into the army, initially under 9-mm Par with the number 9 carved on the cheeks painted red. These could be altered (adapted).
          The pistol shown in 1 photo, judging by the NS monogram (Neue sicherung) on ​​the back of the trigger, is a sample of 1912, the most massive (not Bolo).
          "Astra" produced models 900, 901, 902, 903 and if the first (900) was an exact copy of the 1912 Mauser, the rest were better not only in technical characteristics, but also surpassed the German Mauser in quality.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 19 September 2021 09: 19
            +5
            You are right.
            "Red Nine"

            in 1907 a small batch of 9.mm special cartridge with a cylindrical sleeve was produced. The muzzle energy of which was 667J (67kgf m), for 7.63mm bullets it was 520J (53kgf m) This batch was mainly exported.


            Did you mean this model under your own Mauser cartridge? Unfortunately I couldn't find a photo.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 19 September 2021 13: 58
              +5
              I found a photo of this model.
            2. The comment was deleted.
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 22 September 2021 13: 42
                0
                Thank you, Yuri, I'll take a look at my leisure. smile
          2. Gunfighter95
            Gunfighter95 22 September 2021 14: 06
            +3
            The pistol shown in 1 photo, judging by the NS monogram (Neue sicherung) on ​​the back of the trigger, is a sample of 1912, the most massive (not Bolo).


            As I understand it, you simply did not hold Bolo in your hands ...
            Follow the link to see it in all its glory.

            https://guns.allzip.org/topic/115/2122291.html



            Bolo was made at the Wartheim base. The barrel is shortened and the dimensions of the handle are reduced.
            Everything else is unchanged.
            So the photo may well be Bolo.

            Yours faithfully,
        5. Undecim
          Undecim 19 September 2021 09: 09
          +9
          And why did the 1926 Mauser need a three-position fuse, it didn’t have automatic fire.

          The first position locked only the trigger, the second - the trigger and bolt, the third - feuer.
          By the way. about the "model of 1926" there are strong doubts about its existence. This is most likely a 1930 model.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 19 September 2021 09: 27
            +1
            Strange, but I do not remember at all three positions, although I will not argue, for a long time I held them in my hands.
            1. Gunfighter95
              Gunfighter95 26 September 2021 18: 06
              +4
              In 1926, the Mauser mod. 1912 came the 7,63-mm modernized sample of the mod. 1926. The designers simplified the manufacturing technology, the barrel was thickened near the chamber. The design of the safety catch was also different, the flag of which could now be fixed in three positions.


              Here, as they say, three times by ...
              1. The Mauser firm has never produced the 1926 model. Judging by the aforementioned "thickening near (?!) The chamber", we are still talking about the M30 model, which was put into production in 1930.
              2. The thickening of the barrel was made in the area of ​​the chamber, not near it - the chamber was strengthened.
              3. All variants of C96 for the entire production period were equipped with 4 types of fuses. And ALL of them had only 2 (!!!) positions. And, including the M30.


              Fire position


              Safety position

              It is clear that it is difficult to write about something that I have not seen live and did not hold in my hands.
              But you should use trusted sources.

              Strange, but I do not remember at all three positions, although I will not argue, for a long time I held them in my hands.

              There is a reason to refresh your memory and hold the 96th in your hands. wink

              Yours faithfully,
          2. Gunfighter95
            Gunfighter95 22 September 2021 14: 20
            +4
            By the way. about the "model of 1926" there are strong doubts about its existence. This is most likely a 1930 model.


            100%
            In general, the definition of C96 models is not so simple.
            All C96 terminology is not completely standardized. Often, Mauser has never used most of the modern terms and definitions at all. For example, Mauser never sold pistols under the Prewar Commercial designation. However, the name M-30, like Schnellfeuer (more correctly, Schnellfeuer-pistole), has always been the official name used by Mauser. The unofficial names of the C96 pistols, used by modern collectors and weapon connoisseurs, are now well known to everyone, but taken from practice.

            These pistols could have a magazine for 6 or 10 rounds ...


            The Bolo name is well established, but not standard. It is often used in relation to all C96 pistols with a reduced size handle and a shortened barrel. Even in relation to early-issue pistols. Apparently, therefore, the author of the article mistakenly mentions the 6-round version, talking about the pistols of the 1920 release.
            It must also be remembered that in terms of "prewar" (pre-war), "wartime" (wartime) and "postwar", in relation to the C96 pistols, we mean the First World War 1914-1918.
            Since the beginning of production in 1910 of the pocket Mauser chambered for 6,35 mm caliber, the pistol began to be called "C-96" (Construction 96 - design of the 96th year). It should be clarified that this name was used only by sellers and importers. At the Mauser firm, the pistol was still called "Mauser-Selbstlade-Pistole". Later, another official name for the 1930 modification was introduced - Model 1930. The rest of the modifications (or rather, production versions, variants) bear unofficial names, for example, "Konehammer", "Big Ring", "Flat Side" " Model 1912 "or" Bolo ".

            Yours faithfully,
        6. Undecim
          Undecim 19 September 2021 13: 15
          +4
          In 1920, Waffenfabrik Mauser offered the German police another modification of their famous K.96 - mod. 1920, the total length of which was 256 mm, and the barrel length was 99 mm.

          This length did not appear by accident: Germany was forbidden to produce pistols with a caliber of 9 mm and above, while barrels longer than 100 mm were also not allowed.

          These pistols could have a magazine for 6 or 10 rounds, the grip cheeks were made of wood or plastic. Subsequently, pistols of earlier releases began to be altered for this model of weapons, moreover, not only the 7,63-mm caliber, but also the 9-mm Parabellum pistols.

          Typo? Perhaps you meant that you were remaking those Mauser pistols that were originally fired on the 9mm Parabellum round?

          This is not a typo. The author did not understand a little. The barrel length restriction of no more than four inches extended to pistols with a caliber of 8 mm and above. That is, the Mauser S96 with a caliber of 7,63 mm did not need to be altered, and the appearance of pistols with such a caliber and a barrel length of 3,9 inches was caused not by the requirements of the Treaty of Versailles, but by the need to somehow stay afloat at the expense of the civilian market and imports.
          And pistols, originally fired in 9 mm caliber, were altered not only by "cutting", but also by replacing them with a 7,63 mm caliber barrel. The old barrel was cut off and a new one was welded in its place or installed on the thread. These guns can be identified by the visible connection.
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 19 September 2021 13: 25
            +6

            It looked like a "guillotined" 9-mm C96. As you can see, the sights also needed to be replaced with non-adjustable ones.
    2. Wildcat
      Wildcat 20 September 2021 00: 04
      +2
      Convenient pistol, grip is a bit unusual, but comfortable. And yet, IMHO, due to the weight and the center of gravity shifted to the muzzle compared to the "normal TT", the recoil is perceived softer than that of the TT and the barrel toss is less.
      1. Gunfighter95
        Gunfighter95 22 September 2021 13: 32
        +3
        Didn't notice. "Kicks" like ...
        With the stock - yes, the recoil almost does not take the barrel away.
        But holding the pistol itself is uncomfortable with a shooting hand.
        The rather sharp edges of the frame on the back cut the skin between the thumb and forefinger.

        When shooting from the hand, it "jumps" very well.
        Episode from 4 min. 15 sec. And the uncle there is powerful, weighing more than a centner.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfjTGR__fks
        1. Wildcat
          Wildcat 22 September 2021 16: 25
          -1
          The feeling of shooting is an individual thing, IMHO.
          Someone likes Desert Needles, but for me that .44 and .50 are equally inconvenient. Only .50 right away, and .44 a little later. wassat
          C96 is convenient IMHO (but the most convenient for me is the usual consumer goods chz75). Again, there may be different C96 models. And everyone's hands are different.
          1. Gunfighter95
            Gunfighter95 26 September 2021 18: 17
            +4
            Hold the eagle in your hand like a brick.
            The tactile sensations are almost the same ... laughing
            In the 96th, the "squares" of the trigger block protruding on the sides, I personally cut the skin between the thumb and forefinger when firing.
            In this regard, the Astra 900 is more comfortable.
            The Bolo handle is even less comfortable to hold.
            Well, the Czech's handle is perhaps the most comfortable among the "classmates", such as Beretta 92, P226.
            Maybe only the 99th Walter is more convenient.

            Yours faithfully,
  4. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 19 September 2021 06: 51
    +16
    Mauser is certainly handsome ... always admire these weapons.
    And about Katyn ... the shooting of Polish officers with the subsequent formation of the Polish army on the territory of the USSR does not fit ... it is not logical ... I consider this story a provocation of the Germans and our pro-Western liberals in order to mock everything Soviet.
    1. kalibr
      19 September 2021 06: 55
      -6
      Well, we have a lot of things in history that don't fit in ...
      1. Wildcat
        Wildcat 19 September 2021 14: 17
        +1
        Particularly interesting is the correspondence concerning the captured Poles between Stalin and Co. on the one hand and the British with the Poles on the other. While the German was in the USSR, they were released, then something else ... Well, how things went by the end of the war, and the Polish government in London began to interfere ...
    2. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2021 07: 04
      0
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      And about Katyn ... the shooting of Polish officers with the subsequent formation of the Polish army from them on the territory of the USSR does not fit ... it is not logical ...

      Stalin was kind, too kind. He armed to the teeth 75 thousand Polish prisoners, and sent them to the British, who later became the backbone of the Home Army. It was necessary to shoot all these Poles, so that later they would not shoot at the Soviet soldiers surreptitiously from around the corner.
      1. Lech from Android.
        Lech from Android. 19 September 2021 07: 22
        +3
        At that moment there was a decisive battle for Stalingrad and the help of these Poles would be very useful ... but Polish ambitions turned out to be higher.
        As a result, we had to pay for this with additional lives of our soldiers and officers.
        1. Kot_Kuzya
          Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2021 07: 28
          -3
          Quote: Lech from Android.
          At that moment there was a decisive battle for Stalingrad and the help of these Poles would be very useful ... but Polish ambitions turned out to be higher.

          I don’t understand at all why Stalin gave the go-ahead for the creation of Anders’s army, because he, a participant in the Soviet-Polish war, should have been well aware of Polish Russophobia! And he, damn it, arms 75 thousand Poles and also sends them to the British!
          1. vladcub
            vladcub 19 September 2021 12: 18
            +3
            "gave the go-ahead for the creation of Anders' army" Stalin was a practical man and it was important for him that as many people as possible fought against Hitler.
            And then he made concessions to Churchll
    3. tatra
      tatra 19 September 2021 07: 31
      +3
      And this myth appeared precisely during Perestroika, when the enemies of the USSR and the Soviet people had to slander the Communist Bolsheviks as much as possible in order to justify their capture of the USSR for criminal purposes.
      1. Wildcat
        Wildcat 19 September 2021 14: 18
        +1
        Funny ...
        Like poems about pajamas and Buddha Gautama.
      2. motorized rifle
        motorized rifle 20 September 2021 21: 28
        +1
        slander the communist Bolsheviks to justify their capture of the USSR

        Ouch! Bolshevik communists seized the USSR?
        Looks like I smoked the Newest Story at school!
    4. paul3390
      paul3390 19 September 2021 10: 25
      +4
      The Soviet Union - no matter how they say it, was still a rule-of-law state. And just like that - they could not shoot anyone. There should be sentences, documents on execution, for removal from the camp, documents for transportation to the place of execution, documents for fuel, for cartridges, for allowance for the performers, in a word - a bunch of all sorts of pieces of paper. At least partly! Performing several thousand people is very difficult .. Where is all this?

      I’m already silent about the obvious - why would Comrade Stalin need this? And if it was necessary - why didn't he spank everyone? Once in a couple of years, Anders's whole army had gathered? Moreover, the same Anders with all the officers turned out to be still those enemies. Why were they spared?
      1. kalibr
        19 September 2021 13: 50
        +1
        Quote: paul3390
        The Soviet Union - no matter how they say it, was still a rule-of-law state. And just like that - they could not shoot anyone. There should be sentences, documents on execution, for removal from the camp, documents for transportation to the place of execution, documents for fuel, for cartridges, for allowance for the performers, in a word - a bunch of all sorts of pieces of paper. At least partly! Performing several thousand people is very difficult .. Where is all this?

        But this is already a serious conversation. The Union was not a rule-of-law state, but that it was an official-bureaucratic state is absolutely certain. And such documents (at least some should have remained). But the problem is that sometimes they didn't. And here it is again necessary to look for documents in various archives.
        1. paul3390
          paul3390 19 September 2021 13: 52
          +4
          The Union was not a legal state
          Still as it was. Just right - it was different from the Western liberal. But one hell - even one person could not be shot without a bunch of papers, not to mention thousands.
          1. kalibr
            19 September 2021 13: 58
            +1
            Quote: paul3390
            But one hell - even one person could not have been shot without a bunch of papers, not to mention thousands.

            It is impossible without papers. And it was possible to judge without a lawyer. Don't pour it on me. I worked at the Faculty of Law ...
            1. Aviator_
              Aviator_ 19 September 2021 15: 56
              +2
              Don't pour it on me. I worked at the Faculty of Law ...

              Was he working at that time?
              1. hhurik
                hhurik 20 September 2021 00: 27
                +1
                Probably tried the studios in a revolutionary court. For academic failure. Without a lawyer - I single-handedly announced the verdict and immediately executed it. The beauty.
                1. kalibr
                  21 September 2021 06: 10
                  0
                  Quote: hhurik
                  Without a lawyer - I single-handedly announced the verdict and immediately executed

                  Did you come up with or read somewhere that it was so?
              2. kalibr
                21 September 2021 06: 09
                0
                Precisely in that, Sergei! Exactly!
            2. Captain45
              Captain45 20 September 2021 23: 18
              +1
              Quote: kalibr
              I worked at the Faculty of Law ...

              I was returning on a moonlit night
              I was young and drank vodka,
              And at the gypsy faculty
              Received education laughing (c) from the folklore of students
        2. Wildcat
          Wildcat 19 September 2021 14: 21
          +1
          "The Union was not a rule-of-law state, but that it was an official-bureaucratic state is absolutely certain." "Arch-correct" definition !.
          hi
          And the documents about the executions, by the way, remained. And it's scary to read them.
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 19 September 2021 16: 05
            -1
            And the documents about the executions, by the way, remained. And it's scary to read them.

            Are you talking about Katyn specifically, or in general, just like that? The Katyn "documents" in the first version, when the trial of the CPSU was being prepared, were executed on letterheads from the times of the CPSU, Mukhin has this in his 1995 "Katyn Detective". Later, the Yeltsinoids did not advertise these documents, nor did they arrange a trial over the "criminal organization of the CPSU." But the notorious Yeltsinoid Prosecutor General Kazannik, talking about his student legal practice, in which he tried to find traces of "illegal political repression" in the cases of those convicted under Article 58, wrote with horror that he did not find any reason for rehabilitation.
            1. Wildcat
              Wildcat 19 September 2021 22: 50
              0
              Who is telling a lie, Putin or Serey Aviator with his Mukhin and Kazannik ...
              Sergei, I have some unpleasant news for you - you are wrong.
            2. Wildcat
              Wildcat 19 September 2021 23: 13
              +1
              By the way, you can refer to Kazannik, where he: "talking about his student legal practice, in which he tried to find traces of" illegal political repression "in the cases of those convicted under Article 58, he wrote with horror that he did not find any reason for rehabilitation."
              1. Aviator_
                Aviator_ 20 September 2021 07: 35
                0
                I cannot give links about Kazannik, since I do not document every statement of officials. I read about it in the media in the 90s. Indirect evidence of his correctness will be the fact that rehabilitation in the so-called. the "thaw" was carried out without consideration of cases, but exclusively in lists. As for Putin - well, naturally, Putin is our everything, he cannot be wrong, neither with the destruction of the Mir station, nor with the liquidation of our base in Cam Ranh, nor with the liquidation of the intelligence center in Lourdes. And about the retirement age, he did not say anything before, these are the intrigues of enemies.
                1. Wildcat
                  Wildcat 20 September 2021 20: 06
                  -1
                  "I can't give links about Kazannik, since I don't document every statement of officials. I read about it in the media in the 90s." - there was little doubt that Kazannik could blurt out this then, but suddenly ... request

                  "An indirect evidence of his correctness will be the fact that the rehabilitation in the so-called" thaw "was carried out without consideration of cases, but exclusively in lists." - sadness, you do not know anything about this either.
                  request

                  Further ... and then "hand - face" ...
                  "As for Putin - well, of course, Putin is our everything, he cannot be wrong, neither with the destruction of the Mir station, nor with the liquidation of our base in Cam Ranh, nor with the liquidation of the intelligence center in Lourdes. And he never said anything about the retirement age. , this is the machinations of enemies. "
                  Putin, Cam Ranh, pension, Lourdes, Mir - how does this relate to Katyn?
                  I reformulate the question:


                  Let's for the sake of establishing scientific truth, as well as for the sake of the dear to the heart, respected Caliber "clickbait" good Let's continue the conversation and you will tell me what you think about (1) Medvedev, (2) Yeltsin, (3) Gorbachev - were they all wrong about Katyn too? And why?

                  And "so as not to get up twice" explain plz, the nature of this "denial": well, the Chekists themselves recognize a little less than a million killed in repressions, at the interstate level the question with Katyn is closed, why is there such a "denial" in relation to several tens of thousands of Poles? Neither Estonians, nor Latvians, nor conventionally Czechs - here we are everywhere, and in Katyn - not us?
                  Is it because Stalin said so? Well, even in those difficult years, it was not possible to push through Nuremberg.
                  Until 1991, the position was "not to aggravate relations with Poland," now what?
                  1. Aviator_
                    Aviator_ 20 September 2021 20: 30
                    -1
                    In order.
                    what do you think about (1) Medvedev, (2) Yeltsin, (3) Gorbachev - they were also all wrong about Katyn? And why?

                    They were not mistaken, they worked out. That is why.
                    Why is such a "denial" in relation to several tens of thousands of Poles?

                    Because, apart from journalistic chatter on this topic, there is nothing. The Polish side does not want to conduct a new investigation with all its inherent attributes (material evidence, etc.) Our current government, too. Look at Mukhina yourself, otherwise Shpakovsky only reached 70 pages, according to him, it distracts him from writing masterpieces.
                    Well, even in those difficult years, it was not possible to push through Nuremberg.

                    Well, then it was not possible to "push through many things" through Nuremberg, for example, the use of chemical agents in the Adzhimushkai quarries.
                    1. Wildcat
                      Wildcat 21 September 2021 08: 36
                      +1
                      New day - new discoveries. good
                      "In order.
                      what do you think about (1) Medvedev, (2) Yeltsin, (3) Gorbachev - they were also all wrong about Katyn? And why?
                      They were not mistaken, they worked out. That is why."
                      Did you work out?
                      Please clarify for whom the leaders of the USSR / RF have worked for the last 35 years? To Poland? And how and for what they were hired: wholesale, retail, and what is the rate (or wholesale is cheaper)? It is even possible with links to Mukhin, please do not hesitate.
                      Then let's go further, point by point ..
                      1. Aviator_
                        Aviator_ 21 September 2021 19: 36
                        0
                        This week I will not serve Shpakovsky any more, and I have given so much. He himself boasted that he had a profit from discussing notes. I consider the conversation pointless, because the result of the actions of the authorities of the late 80s is obvious - who needed it. hi
                      2. Wildcat
                        Wildcat 21 September 2021 20: 20
                        -1
                        But what about clickbait!
                        We just started talking about "the result of the actions of the authorities of the late 80s" and Polish paid agents ...
                        The country collapsed from this, because at first they did it, then they tried to excuse themselves, and then everyone fled.
                      3. kalibr
                        21 September 2021 20: 41
                        +2
                        Quote: Aviator_
                        This week I will not serve Shpakovsky any more, and I have given so much. He himself boasted that he had a profit from discussing notes.

                        And without you, there are already more than 70 thousand clicks. You and 70, but spit and grind!
                      4. Aviator_
                        Aviator_ 22 September 2021 07: 48
                        0
                        already more than 70 thousand clicks

                        And how is the percentage of those who think and who do not think so much (according to your method, 30 and 70%) are represented in these clicks?
                      5. kalibr
                        22 September 2021 12: 13
                        0
                        Quote: Aviator_
                        And how is the percentage of those who think and who do not think so much (according to your method, 30 and 70%) are represented in these clicks?

                        It doesn't matter. Advertising is sold "per click" and there no one asks what someone thinks with the head or the sacrum. Only you again confuse everything: not 30 and 70, but 20 and 80. Interestingly, do you have construction materials with numbers as well? If yes, then I am not surprised that planes and missiles are falling in our country. By the way, 80 have already read it. By the end of the week there will be 000 ...
                      6. Aviator_
                        Aviator_ 22 September 2021 17: 10
                        0
                        This is your confusion. I have never created structural materials; they are engaged in this at VIAM. We use them. Continue to be amazed at the crash of the planes, the "Pepsi generation" is now driving there;
                      7. kalibr
                        22 September 2021 17: 20
                        0
                        Quote: Aviator_
                        This is your confusion.

                        So it is mutual and this is age-related for both of us.
                    2. kalibr
                      21 September 2021 09: 41
                      +1
                      Quote: Aviator_
                      Shpakovsky only reached 70 pages, according to his confession, it distracts him from writing masterpieces.

                      Why are you misinterpreting everything again, if not ashamed? Not up to 70, but only up to 40 out of 80 in the electronic edition. And not because it distracts, but because it is simply impossible to read these verses. Not a text, but a hodgepodge of meat team, and even very poorly prepared. There is a lot of polemical fervor, but few real facts. I do not like books that are incompetent ... However, anyone can check. Maybe someone will even like it. By principle, I write even worse ...
                      1. Aviator_
                        Aviator_ 21 September 2021 19: 43
                        0
                        Not up to 70, but only up to 40

                        I wanted to make a compliment, I won't. For a historian, the text of an engineer - metallurgist of a ferromanganese plant, who worked there for a long time, who reached the deputy director, is, of course, unreadable. Here the opinion of a relative from the authorities is the main thing, and the method of analyzing the information does not give anything to the historian. This is about informational content.
                      2. kalibr
                        21 September 2021 20: 26
                        0
                        The text is very poorly written. To fish out grains of information from the mass of words, why? Why insert the Tukhachevsky case there? All I know about that and sing? The work is poorly structured, a lot of polemical fervor, but little information. Such sources of information do not poison me. And the fact that he was a director ... Sholokhov was not a director of a ferromanganese plant. But how is his letter to Stalin read?
                2. kalibr
                  21 September 2021 06: 04
                  +1
                  Quote: Aviator_
                  but exclusively in lists.

                  Wrong! And not everyone was rehabilitated!
            3. kalibr
              21 September 2021 06: 01
              0
              Quote: Aviator_
              with horror he wrote that he did not find any reason for rehabilitation.

              So he was a fool if he did not see the obvious!
              1. Wildcat
                Wildcat 21 September 2021 08: 53
                -1
                About the lists, the data from here: "I cannot give links about Kazannik, since I do not document every statement of officials. I read about it in the media in the 90s." This AIDS Info (you hardly read this) most likely was the source, there it could be, IMHO ...
                Or there was some kind of newspaper "weekly aliens" it seems that there, too, this could surface.
                request
                Kazannik, as far as I remember, was smart, cunning, principled and tenacious. He even pronounced his name with caution (which is good for a prosecutor, by the way).
                And how could this have been since Soviet times: "Prosecutor General Kazannik, talking about his student legal practice, in which he tried to find traces of" illegal political repression "in the cases of those convicted under Article 58, wrote with horror that he had no reason for rehabilitation found. " That is, a student comes to practice, let's say, to the prosecutor's office, and instead of engaging in socially useful stitching of cases and transporting material evidence, he says: give me cases ... according to Article 58 to begin with ... until 1953.
                Well, everything is bursting into the archive (such cases were not even handed over to relatives, there is usually still "help-liar" was, where it is written that they lied about "10 years without the right to correspond", so as not to forget). And voila - our student intern is shoveling old cases ...
                1. Aviator_
                  Aviator_ 21 September 2021 19: 47
                  -1
                  such things were not even handed over to relatives,

                  Issued. This is from your excess of emotions.
                  1. Wildcat
                    Wildcat 21 September 2021 20: 14
                    0
                    winked
                    This is not my excess of emotions, it is your lack of knowledge.
                    Here is what was issued and up to what period of time (you will find the source yourself, if you are interested in the form of "certificate - a brew" too, maybe the surname Semichastny will talk about something), so, we set off in 1962:
                    "In 1955, with the knowledge of the authorities and in agreement with the USSR Prosecutor's Office, the State Security Committee issued directive No. 108ss to the KGB, which determines the procedure for considering applications from citizens interested in the fate of persons shot by decisions of non-judicial bodies (formerly the OGPU collegium, the OGPU-NKVD triplets) UNKVD and the Commission of the NKVD of the USSR and the Prosecutor of the USSR). In accordance with this instruction, the state security bodies inform the family members of the convicts that their relatives were sentenced to 10 years in labor camps and died in places of imprisonment, and, if necessary, when resolving property or other legal issues, they register in the registry offices the death of those shot with the issuance of certificates to the applicants. whose dates of death are indicated within 10 years from the date of arrest, and the causes of death are fictitious.

                    The establishment of this order in 1955 was motivated by the fact that during the period of mass repressions a large number of people were unjustifiably convicted, therefore, the message about the real fate of the repressed could negatively affect the situation of their families. In addition, it was assumed that the message to the family members of the executed by the real fate of their relatives could be used at that time by certain hostile elements to the detriment of the interests of the Soviet state.
                    The existing procedure for reporting fictitious data concerns mainly innocently injured Soviet citizens who were shot by decisions of non-judicial authorities during the period of mass repressions.
                    As a result of the review of criminal cases from 1954 to 1961, of the total number of those who were shot in non-judicial order, about half were rehabilitated. In relation to most of them, their relatives were told false information about the death allegedly occurred in places of deprivation of liberty.
                    After the work done by the Central Committee of the CPSU to expose the lawlessness committed during the period of Stalin's personality cult, we consider it necessary to cancel the existing procedure for considering applications from citizens with inquiries about the fate of their relatives.
                    Informing citizens of the fictitious dates and circumstances of the death of persons close to them puts the state security organs in a false position, especially when the dates of death of persons who in the past had merits to the party and the state are published in the press. In addition, the registration of the deaths of shot persons by decisions of non-judicial bodies with an indication in the documents of the fictitious periods of their stay in places of detention puts their family members in unequal conditions with the family members of persons shot in court.
                    Soviet people are aware of the massive violations of socialist legality and the motives, by virtue of which the procedure for informing relatives about the fate of the repressed members of their families was established in 1955, have disappeared.
                    Considering the above, seems appropriate henceforth, in response to inquiries from citizens about the fate of their relatives convicted out of court to be shot, orally report the actual circumstances of the death of these persons, and registration in the registry office of their death should be made by the date of execution, without specifying the cause of death, as is done by the Military Collegium of the Supreme Court of the USSR and military tribunals in relation to persons shot by court sentences.
                    At the same time, it is understood that this procedure will not apply to persons in respect of whom answers were given in accordance with the previously established and current procedures for considering applications. "
                  2. kalibr
                    22 September 2021 17: 23
                    +1
                    Quote: Aviator_
                    Issued. This is from your excess of emotions.

                    Even in the special storage of Leninka they did not give me the drawings of the T-27 tankette (!), And the publication "Squadron-Signal", and this was 1985. In the archives of the Ministry of Defense - data on the tank column "Alexander Nevsky", by the way, he wrote about this. And the student-trainee was given the cases of the repressed ... it's not even funny.
              2. Aviator_
                Aviator_ 21 September 2021 19: 45
                -2
                So he was a fool if he did not see the obvious!

                He foresaw your insult and prudently died in 2019.
                1. kalibr
                  21 September 2021 19: 53
                  -1
                  That's nice, there would be fewer of these ...
          2. motorized rifle
            motorized rifle 20 September 2021 21: 33
            0
            "The Union was not a rule-of-law state, but that it was an official-bureaucratic state is absolutely certain." "Arch-correct" definition !.

            The rule of law, ALWAYS bureaucratic and bureaucratic! There is no other way, in ANY legal state.
            1. Wildcat
              Wildcat 21 September 2021 09: 08
              0
              You confuse concepts a little.

              A state based on the rule of law is understood to be one that is subject to the rules of law and its basic principles. As a rule, these are democracy, the rule of law, the priority of human rights and freedoms.
              A bureaucratic-bureaucratic state, as a rule, is understood as a state where power belongs to a caste of officials (open, according to the principle of meritocracy, or closed, according to the principle of inheritance). And the "law" there is made out what is needed at a particular moment by the manager.
              Something like that, in short.
              1. motorized rifle
                motorized rifle 21 September 2021 21: 43
                0
                As a rule, these are democracy, the rule of law, the priority of human rights and freedoms.

                As a rule ... This is already the answer. Without bureaucratic and bureaucratic courts, prosecutors, penitentiary systems, police, no "usually" works. Then you can't stand the letter of the law. It is another matter that bureaucratic officials move away from this letter, but without them there is no one to adhere to the "letter", or can the lynching of the rule of law?
                1. kalibr
                  22 September 2021 17: 25
                  +1
                  Quote: motorized infantryman
                  or can lynching the rule of law?

                  Or the trial of the "troika" for no more than 20 minutes (for example, that is how much the old Bolshevik Unshlikht was examined!) Without the invitation of the accused and a lawyer?
    5. Captain45
      Captain45 20 September 2021 23: 13
      +1
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      And about Katyn ... the shooting of Polish officers with the subsequent formation of the Polish army from them on the territory of the USSR does not fit ... it is not logical ... with



      And no one smears the board with turd, does not fill with paint, in contrast to the proud gentry, for the liberation, whom the USSR laid down almost 600 thousand soldiers. And in all conscience, Anders' army did nothing for the USSR, except that they ate our rations, and put on felt boots, which were not superfluous for our army. There is an interesting book by the adjutant Anders Jerzy Klimkowski "The Vilest of the Vile", the guarantor writes very interestingly.
  5. Nafanya from the sofa
    Nafanya from the sofa 19 September 2021 07: 37
    +9
    And the revolver is not very good for this: it fired seven times, and then twist the drum seven times, work with the ramrod, insert cartridges. Mayata, and more!

    A quote from "a real Demokrat and a fighter against Stalinism." Reading this is just disgusting.
    1. kalibr
      19 September 2021 07: 52
      -7
      Quote: Nafanya from the couch
      A quote from "a real Demokrat and a fighter against Stalinism." Reading this is just disgusting.

      Don't read it. Nerves must be protected if they are thin. But what do you mind? Work, including shooting people, must be effective, especially if there are a lot of them.
      1. Lech from Android.
        Lech from Android. 19 September 2021 08: 01
        +6
        There are many photos where the Germans shoot their victims ...
        But there is not a single real photo of the execution of convicts by the NKVD.
        Vyacheslav, write better about weapons ... do not touch this dirty topic. hi
        1. kalibr
          19 September 2021 09: 47
          -1
          Quote: Lech from Android.
          But there is not a single real photo of the execution of convicts by the NKVD.

          But there are documents about the executions. Or did the people appointed to them die by themselves upon the reading of the sentence?
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 19 September 2021 16: 07
            -1
            But there are documents about the executions.

            Executed on CPSU letterheads?
            1. kalibr
              21 September 2021 06: 07
              +1
              Quote: Aviator_
              Executed on CPSU letterheads?

              Signed by Stalin and his associates ...
              1. Aviator_
                Aviator_ 21 September 2021 08: 05
                -3
                Signed by Stalin and his associates ...

                Estessno, it was. On the letterheads of the CPSU. The historian does not know when the CPSU (b) was renamed into the CPSU, or has he already forgotten?
                1. kalibr
                  21 September 2021 09: 52
                  0
                  Quote: Aviator_
                  Estessno, it was. On the letterheads of the CPSU. The historian does not know when the CPSU (b) was renamed into the CPSU, or has he already forgotten?

                  In a binge in the morning, huh? Where did you see the forms of the CPSU on the documents of 1937?
                  Here, for example, is the first page of the list of 46 "arrested persons who are on the list of the NKVD of the USSR" dated January 29, 1942. I. Stalin's resolution: "Shoot all those named in the note. I. St. "

                  1. kalibr
                    21 September 2021 09: 54
                    +2
                    Actually, there are so many of them that you can hammer the whole VO with them.
                  2. Aviator_
                    Aviator_ 21 September 2021 19: 32
                    -1
                    I’m talking about the Katyn case, and the mister historian is engaged in the substitution of the thesis, in the spirit of the propagandists of the Only True Teaching.
                    And do not be rude, sick.
                    1. kalibr
                      21 September 2021 20: 31
                      +1
                      Quote: Aviator_
                      And do not be rude, sick.

                      Why? You will write all sorts of nonsense, but I can not give their author an assessment? You are breaking the rules of the site when you write not about the article, but about the author. Well, the answer is the same. And what is rude, well, so ... By the way, whoever is polite to me, to those I am always polite too.
                    2. kalibr
                      21 September 2021 20: 37
                      0
                      Quote: Aviator_
                      I'm talking about the Katyn case,

                      Then where is this? "The historian does not know when the VKP (b) was renamed into the CPSU, or has he already forgotten?"
        2. kalibr
          19 September 2021 13: 51
          +2
          Quote: Lech from Android.
          do not touch this dirty topic.

          The more dirty topics are ... cleared of dirt, the cleaner our history will be!
          1. Lech from Android.
            Lech from Android. 19 September 2021 15: 16
            +2
            Well ... let's start with the shooting by the Poles of our captured Red Army soldiers Tukhachevsky in Polish concentration camps. hi
            1. kalibr
              19 September 2021 15: 32
              0
              Very good. But there was such an article. And besides, why am I writing all the time - read the magazines HOMELAND, ISSUES OF HISTORY, MILITARY HISTORICAL JOURNAL .... I don't remember where, but it was about that. Why should I repeat myself? And besides ... this applies to our history less than to the Polish one. We know that these illegal actions took place. Polish historians need to find out what and how.
              1. Lech from Android.
                Lech from Android. 19 September 2021 16: 10
                +1
                I read articles about this dear Vyacheslav ... a sad topic.
                Unfortunately for the Polish society, the lives of our people are abstract and do not matter ... there is too much Russophobia in it.
                As for Katyn, I would like to see the testimony of the executioners and eyewitnesses ... more weighty evidence.
                1. kalibr
                  19 September 2021 16: 15
                  +5
                  Quote: Lech from Android.
                  As for Katyn, I would like to see the testimony of the gunmen and eyewitnesses.

                  Words not of a boy, but of a husband! And I can't write about Soviet prisoners of war. On our material, the article will be pale. I have no access to the Polish archives - the wrong caliber. And to ask them ... on this topic will not be answered and then ... my Pyotr Shpakovsky so well "noted" there during the war years that ... in general, I had better not be interested in their archives with such a surname.
                  1. Wildcat
                    Wildcat 21 September 2021 17: 29
                    -1
                    “As for Katyn, I would like to see the testimony of the gunmen and eyewitnesses.
                    Words not of a boy, but of a husband! "
                    hi
                    Well, what's the matter?
                    So, our constant heading "interesting photos and videos in the comments to the articles of Caliber" (this time - a whole major general will satisfy the curiosity of members of the forum):
                    1. kalibr
                      21 September 2021 18: 11
                      +1
                      Thanks! Much obliged!
                      1. Wildcat
                        Wildcat 21 September 2021 18: 20
                        -1
                        hi
                        You're welcome!
                        By the way, even a photo of Beretta from the time of Mussolini (you wrote about her) was found, but there are fingers without phalanges in the photo ...
                        And I myself can't crop photos ... an assistant who knows how to edit photos, compress and somehow "upload" a disk to Yandex does not always and not on all conditions agree to do this ... feel
                      2. kalibr
                        21 September 2021 18: 21
                        +1
                        Quote: Wildcat
                        I do not always and not on all terms agree to do this ...

                        Sorry!
                      3. The comment was deleted.
                      4. kalibr
                        21 September 2021 18: 24
                        +1
                        Quote: Wildcat
                        so about a stranger ...

                        It is truth too. It's just a stupid habit to say that.
                      5. Wildcat
                        Wildcat 21 September 2021 22: 05
                        -2
                        hi
                        Then let another whole major general satisfy the curiosity of members of the forum:
      2. Nafanya from the sofa
        Nafanya from the sofa 19 September 2021 08: 16
        +2
        You don't read. Nerves must be protected if they are thin.

        Totally agree with you. Only for this in the subheading of the article it is necessary to indicate: "grain", "tares", etc. Then it will be immediately clear whether to read or not read. According to the first three words in VO, only E. Damantsev can be confidently identified. You, Mr. Shpakovsky, also have interesting articles. And not always "out of the chaff"
        1. vladcub
          vladcub 19 September 2021 12: 11
          +3
          "only Damantseva" is still easily recognized by R. SKOMOROKHOV. V. O has a "corporate" epigraph, + a peculiar manner
      3. Catfish
        Catfish 19 September 2021 09: 04
        +7
        ... you have to shoot people effectively, especially if there are a lot of them.

        Well, that's why they came up with a machine gun. laughing
        1. Kot_Kuzya
          Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2021 09: 14
          +1
          Quote: Sea Cat
          Well, that's why they came up with a machine gun.

          Tonka the machine-gunner shot people with a machine gun, every day she shot an average of 27 people, even 27 people from a revolver or a pistol to shoot this is not an easy task. If you believe Anatoly Kuznetsov, then in Babi Yar in September 1941, the Germans also shot Jews from machine guns, since there were tens of thousands of them.
          1. boris epstein
            boris epstein 19 September 2021 17: 02
            +2
            In fact, it was not so much the Germans who shot at Babi Yar, but the Bukovyna Battalion of Bandera. Of the 1600 who shot, there were 1200 Bandera fighters. And in Lvov, for the first 10 days after its occupation by the Germans, the Germans themselves did not perform a single execution. All executions were carried out by Bandera.
        2. hhurik
          hhurik 20 September 2021 00: 39
          +4
          Duc, Mauser paired no worse
    2. Region-25.rus
      Region-25.rus 19 September 2021 12: 36
      +3
      A quote from "a real Demokrat and a fighter against Stalinism." Reading this is just disgusting.
      well, you can't help but write and daub it. Only the author was modest - why is there a Nagant or a Mauser? It was necessary to immediately write - "Shot from a howitzer." And what? One HE shell and forty people at the same time at the expense. Moreover, it will dig in an explosion, and there is no need to bury wassat
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 19 September 2021 16: 10
        +4
        It was necessary to immediately write - "Shot from a howitzer

        This is how they wrote about the North Koreans now - that they carry out sentences from mortars. There is only one source, rather fragrant.
        1. Region-25.rus
          Region-25.rus 19 September 2021 17: 21
          +2
          that they use mortars to carry out sentences. The source is one, rather fragrant.
          well so. All according to the precepts of "Doctor" Goebbels - "to dehumanize the enemy"!
  6. svp67
    svp67 19 September 2021 07: 51
    +12
    An interesting version of the Katyn execution. But there are several "but" ...
    1. The penetrating ability of the S-96 Mauser bullet was much higher, and hence the safe zone should be done more.
    2. These pistols (S-96) at that time, were supplied to equip not ordinary soldiers, but middle and senior command personnel. If they were involved in executions, then "OH".
    3. The NKVD also widely used another Mauser model of the 1914 model

    and it is often not clear which of them we are talking about ...
    1. kalibr
      19 September 2021 09: 48
      +4
      Quote: svp67
      The NKVD also widely used another Mauser model of the 1914 model.

      There will be a separate article about him next.
    2. vladcub
      vladcub 19 September 2021 13: 53
      +1
      "in the NKVD" and not only there. This pistol was common in the GW and after the GW in the army.
  7. buv59
    buv59 19 September 2021 07: 54
    +14
    Quote: "Kozhanka and Mauser have become the" calling card "of security officers, commissars, crews of" Comrade Trotsky's propaganda armored train "and all sorts of chieftains, fathers and ... sailors-anarchists."
    And I think that the Mauser became a "calling card" because of our cinema, in the armories of which there were a fair number of Mauser. The directors used them immensely: the pistol is really beautiful. After all, in the years of the civilian, how could so many Mauser come from? As far as I know, the Mauser was not in service in the tsarist army, the officers bought it at their own expense
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 19 September 2021 10: 55
      0
      In RI, about 20-25000 units could be used for PMV and GV. After all, Mauser was widely represented in gun shops.
      Before the revolution of 1905-1907, even all possible rifles were sold in stores, and after the revolution only rifles were removed
    2. vladcub
      vladcub 19 September 2021 13: 50
      +1
      "because of our cinema". In fact, there are many photographs of the GW period, where Mauser flashes.
      PS. Remember how Pavka Korchagin asked Zhukhrai: "Send me some cartridges for Nagan," and Zhukhrai gave him his Mauser. Someone suggested: "we will change: you are a Mauser for me, and you boots. If the dithers are not octopuses."
    3. your1970
      your1970 19 September 2021 15: 14
      +1
      Quote from buv59
      After all, in the years of the civilian, how could so many Mauser come from? As far as I know, the Mauser was not in service in the tsarist army, the officers bought it at their own expense

      And where do we get Kolt pistol casings in the steppe in the area of ​​operation of the 25th Charayevsk division ???
      Tsarism bought everything for small arms, wherever they sold ...
      So any models of weapons wandered into the civilian ...
      1. buv59
        buv59 19 September 2021 15: 47
        +3
        Absolutely agree. Precisely, that any models wandered. Moreover, for the scale of the Civil War, it is clearly not numerous, and the Mauser is obtained everywhere and for everyone. It's like the German MP38 / 40, which every German soldier has in our cinema. And so there is a whole line in some machine guns (for example, the film "Star" in 1949, as the Germans comb the forest). But if you look at the chronicle, especially the years 41-42, and in the marching columns there are a lot of carbines, machine guns - one or two and there are no numbers.
  8. Okolotochny
    Okolotochny 19 September 2021 08: 12
    +4
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, at the end of the first paragraph of "VChK-OPTU". Typo?
    1. kalibr
      19 September 2021 09: 49
      +2
      Well, of course, the OGPU.
  9. CommanderDIVA
    CommanderDIVA 19 September 2021 08: 21
    +8
    You can simply read about this type of weapon in the Beetle's book "Pistols and Revolvers", a Soviet edition, everything is intelligible and detailed, and the essence of this article comes down to the firing squads of the NKVD, armed precisely with German Mauser, obtained as a result of cooperation between the USSR and Germany, advice to the author, do not enter into squabbles with readers, you do not give reasoned answers, links to the dissertation are not appropriate, the sources that were used in its preparation are more important, I wrote myself, I know, Goethe also said "The eyes of the reader are more strict than the ears of the listener", in my opinion So
    1. kalibr
      19 September 2021 09: 50
      -4
      Quote: CommanderDIVA
      references to dissertations are inappropriate, sources are more important,

      There are just the sources ...
    2. kalibr
      19 September 2021 09: 51
      -5
      Quote: CommanderDIVA
      Goethe also said "The eyes of the reader are more severe than the ears of the listener",

      He meant adequate readers. He lived before the USSR and its adherents appeared!
      1. faiver
        faiver 19 September 2021 10: 26
        +13
        Well, yes, you are also not lucky with readers, as the government of a country with a population laughing
        1. kalibr
          19 September 2021 10: 28
          -3
          Quote: faiver
          Well, yes, you are also not lucky with readers, as the government of a country with a population

          There are 80% adequate and 20% not quite. With adequate luck, with others not. Also to the government. It's just that fools and ignoramuses shout louder!
  10. buv59
    buv59 19 September 2021 08: 37
    +4
    In Ukraine, in the Donetsk region in Artyomovsk and Solidar, there were warehouses of art weapons. What was there from small arms, incl. and Mauser. According to Strelkov, 5-7 million !!! units, incl. 1.5 million PPSh (only 6 million of them were manufactured), more than 20 thousand "Maxim" machine guns. The militias were unable to take these warehouses, but taking advantage of the confusion, someone from the ukrohunta made a good profit in 2014.
    1. Bacha
      Bacha 19 September 2021 09: 34
      +6
      I think the story is from the category of true rumors. The weapon is unique, especially unusable in modern wars. And in order to profit it must be sold. But! Nowhere in the world, in any conflict, such weapons have not surfaced. That is, they did not sell it to babays and savages of various kinds. But there is a collector's market. I often monitor US sites of weapon lovers, such as our Hanse, but offers to sell such weapons did not come up there either. Although it is legal there, there are many who want to buy into the collection. There are a lot of countries on our planet where you can buy weapons for your collection. Legal. So you can legally sell. But not a single mention. Although, this is just my opinion.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 19 September 2021 10: 28
        +7
        I often monitor ... But not a single mention ..

        How do you monitor unsuccessfully.

        Or did you mean specifically "weapons from Donetsk mines"?
        1. Bacha
          Bacha 19 September 2021 10: 36
          +2
          Sorry, I put it wrong. Mention of a large batch. It seems like a Mauser is on sale, the price is so much, there are 100 pieces in stock. Single copies are always on sale.
        2. Undecim
          Undecim 19 September 2021 10: 42
          +5
          No sane person would sell collectible weapons in this way. Even during the Second World War. About the "ukrokhuntu" that has been profitable; these are the fantasies of local hamsters,
    2. boris epstein
      boris epstein 19 September 2021 17: 12
      +1
      They could not take it because the warehouses were in the mine, and next to the mine there was a guard who guarded these warehouses. The guard was serious, no jokes. Signaling, automation, telephone, telegraph and radio communications. They did not find a common language with the guard.
      1. Cormoran
        Cormoran 24 September 2021 01: 44
        0
        There, the gloomy Dubinsky wanted to use the cutter-cut harvester. But he didn't have time. According to him.
        1. boris epstein
          boris epstein 24 September 2021 14: 30
          0
          What kind of cutter harvester? Mine named after Volodarsky-salt. And in the salt mines, ordinary excavators and KrAZ trucks work. Moreover, the movement is two-way. Visit the salt mine and you will see.
          1. Cormoran
            Cormoran 30 October 2021 18: 52
            0
            You still have to get to the mine. It won't ride from above, there is a Galician colonel with a finger on the explosive button. So I had to ... improvise.
  11. sergo1914
    sergo1914 19 September 2021 09: 04
    0
    With what weapon will EdRoss be shot? The topic is not covered in the article. And it's time to get ready.
  12. bk0010
    bk0010 19 September 2021 09: 10
    +4
    Mauser is stupidly made: too big, the handle is not involved in any way.
    1. faiver
      faiver 19 September 2021 09: 50
      +8
      you forget what it was made for, it's like an expeditionary pistol-carbine
    2. Catfish
      Catfish 19 September 2021 13: 57
      +3
      ... the handle is not used in any way.

      How is it not involved in any way ?! And for what place does the shooter hold him? wassat

      True, if you approach the weapon with your measurements, you can find a lot of models that are "too large and the handle is not used in any way. For example:

  13. ivan2022
    ivan2022 19 September 2021 09: 29
    +4
    Mauser was needed for the same reason why the Empire needed Belgian "Nagans" and French motors - there was no one... Already at the beginning of the 20th century, many types of weapons existed in the West, and in the USSR there was only its own TT and its own TC.
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 19 September 2021 13: 26
      +1
      "your TT and your TK" mean Korovin's pistol?
      "S. A. Korovin (1884-1946) who in his youth worked for a number of years in Liege (Belgium) at the J. Browning arms factory *
  14. Undecim
    Undecim 19 September 2021 09: 34
    +5
    In 1920, Waffenfabrik Mauser offered the German police another modification of their famous K.96 - mod. 1920, the total length of which was 256 mm, and the barrel length was 99 mm.

    This length did not appear by accident: Germany was forbidden to produce pistols with a caliber of 9 mm and above, while barrels longer than 100 mm were also not allowed.

    These pistols could have a magazine for 6 or 10 rounds, the grip cheeks were made of wood or plastic. Subsequently, pistols of earlier releases began to be altered for this model of weapons, moreover, not only the 7,63-mm caliber, but also the 9-mm Parabellum pistols.

    Here the author got confused. The version for the French gendarmerie with a 99 mm barrel and the 1920 rework are different pistols.
    1. kalibr
      19 September 2021 09: 53
      -4
      Well, you know better ...
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 19 September 2021 10: 22
        +14
        Vyacheslav Olegovich, this is not "I know better." You know me not for the first year as well as the fact that I do not write comments "from the ceiling".
        1. kalibr
          19 September 2021 10: 31
          +2
          I meant it and precisely because I have known you for a long time ...
    2. Gunfighter95
      Gunfighter95 22 September 2021 14: 44
      +5
      Here the author got confused. The version for the French gendarmerie with a 99 mm barrel and the 1920 rework are different pistols.


      100%
      The so-called "French contract".
      Only the barrel is shortened, the handle is unchanged.
      Black plastic cheeks with "mesh" and monogram, if I'm not mistaken, DWM.
      Sight at 500 m.
      It has nothing to do with Bolo and the "castrates" of 1920.




      But this is a typical conversion C96 "nine" for the police.
      The so-called "rework". There is a stigma of 1920,



      Yours faithfully,
  15. faiver
    faiver 19 September 2021 09: 56
    +5
    I remember very well the disputes over Katyn and pistols, but where does the Mauser Bolo have to do with it? This is certainly the most uncomfortable pistol for mass executions ...
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 19 September 2021 11: 58
      +3
      Actually, there is a lot of turbidity with Katyn. Soviet historians denied, but the "opposition" historian Miltyukhov believes.
      PS in connection with Katyn, I don’t remember the Mauser cartridge case
  16. vladcub
    vladcub 19 September 2021 10: 08
    +4
    Comrades, I am always wondering which epigraph is used by V. Oh?
    Today I looked: Mauser and remembered Mvyaktvsky: "your word is comrade Mauser," but Strugatsky did not think
    1. kalibr
      19 September 2021 10: 30
      +4
      Glad I gave you pleasure. A trifle, but nice.
  17. vladcub
    vladcub 19 September 2021 10: 33
    +2
    V. Oh, what is "ochepatok" mntgo: RKKD, OGPTU
    1. kalibr
      19 September 2021 13: 54
      +2
      I'm not the only one writing. The proofreader also looks ... I'll try to take it into account.
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 19 September 2021 19: 55
        0
        You can see how he looked
  18. vladcub
    vladcub 19 September 2021 11: 51
    +1
    "Work with champagne seven times" V. Oh, in fact, the Nagant revolver were of two types: "soldier" and with a folding drum model 1910 (?), and at that time they already knew "accelerators."
    1. sibiryouk
      sibiryouk 19 September 2021 13: 46
      +2
      With a folding drum, this is not a model for Russia, it appeared late and was used by private traders and the police. By the way, in the cycle of Romanian films about the police commissar Moldovan (Miklovane), popular in the USSR in the 70-80s, in the film WITH CLEAN HANDS the commissioner has just such a revolver, he demonstrated high-speed shooting from it with reloading, well, just IPSC competitions!
      1. buv59
        buv59 19 September 2021 14: 30
        +3
        I do not agree that Miklovan had a revolver model 1910.
        Firstly, it just doesn't look like it (seen by the front sight).
        Secondly, in the revolver model 1910, the drum was thrown to the right, and in the film - to the left.
        Thirdly, in Romania, such a revolver was not in service.
        Fourthly (this is not essential), the revolver arr. 1910 is just some kind of freak. Miklovan should have everything elegantly: from a hat to a revolver.
        1. vladcub
          vladcub 19 September 2021 20: 05
          0
          I don’t remember this movie.
          If the drum leans back in the left, perhaps some other revolver.
          PS, why not assume that he did not have a Syrian revolver?
          1. buv59
            buv59 19 September 2021 20: 53
            +1
            The theme of Miklovan's revolver had already been beaten up long ago. What people are not interested in in the Internet era. Evil tongues, specialists and couch experts in unison declare about a police S&W 38 caliber. I find their arguments convincing. I didn't quite understand about a non-serial revolver. Tried, could not insert a photo from the film and revolver model 1910. Yes, type in the search engine "Miklovan's revolver" - so many photos will come out for you (including with the drum thrown to the left) and find a photo of a revolver model 1910 and a S&W 38 caliber policeman - everything will immediately become clear
    2. kalibr
      19 September 2021 13: 55
      +2
      Quote: vladcub
      folding drum sample 1910

      We have not got accustomed! And it was not released!
  19. Undecim
    Undecim 19 September 2021 12: 06
    +6
    The question is in the title of the article.
    Why did the USSR need the Bolo Mauser

    The correct answer is in the comments to the article.
    Mauser was needed for the same reason why the Empire needed Belgian "Nagans" and French motors - there was no one of its own.

    Indeed, there was no one of our own. And in those years, the USSR could not buy weapons with such characteristics and in such quantities from anyone else.
  20. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 19 September 2021 12: 23
    +1
    Just not fom .., but background ..... With the adoption of the 7,62x25 cartridge, our country lagged behind the West by 70 years. And only now we have entered the list of countries using 9x19 mm ammunition. Everything with us is, as always, with a twist.
    1. kalibr
      19 September 2021 13: 56
      0
      Sergey! "We have a special become ..." - said the poet.
  21. vladcub
    vladcub 19 September 2021 13: 31
    0
    Quote: Undecim
    No sane person would sell collectible weapons in this way. Even during the Second World War. About the "ukrokhuntu" that has been profitable; these are the fantasies of local hamsters,

    So as not to bring down the price. For piece copies, they will help out more
  22. vladcub
    vladcub 19 September 2021 13: 40
    0
    Quote: mark1
    I also came across such data (not very sure). Probably this amount remained in warehouses after the war (due to trophies)

    A certain number of Mauser have remained since the time of WWI and GW
  23. tank66
    tank66 19 September 2021 14: 20
    +4
    I kept it in my hands, but there were no cartridges crying
    when a conversation starts for him, I always remember the story with Papanin's Mauser, who, on the ice, from nefig, did a complete disassembly and assembly of the device a couple of times a day. not crazy. That is - the weapon is not for the average user. Yes
    about the Poles who dumped with Anders to the British can be found in detail in the memoirs of Serov, who neatly, respectfully knitted them in the 39th in Poland, perepedaloval in central Russia and recommended in writing strongly not to chukhan, bo can come in handy. And Abakumov and other highlanders on the Lubyanka, the noble gentlemen's teeth straightened with a sparkle, ashtrays and heels. What the gentry could not forget ... By the way, about Katyn he dimly mentioned - like Kobulov cheated there, and what exactly is better not to know, all the more control is different. Most likely / my opinion / - some of the psheks were slammed by ours - I would have slammed them - remembering the Red Army men who were trapped in captivity by Polyanskiy after the Warsaw campaign - and there were 20 thousand in lieu of them.
    1. beeper
      beeper 19 September 2021 19: 07
      +3
      hi In fact, more than 80 thousand Red Army prisoners died then in Polish death camps and were killed by local Polish self-defense detachments, and ordinary Polish villagers did not at all disdain the reprisals against the helpless wounded and captured Red Army soldiers, they considered it a bold thing to beat a Russian man, they attacked with a whole code , Polish escorts did not bother them!
      And Polish warriors, in general, shot and chopped down red commanders, commissars, communists, Chinese and Jews on the spot without talking!
      For example, just a quote from RT materials
      ...Colonel of the Polish General Staff Ignacy Matuszewski wrote in a report to the Minister of War on February 1, 1922 that 22 thousand Red Army soldiers died in the Tuchol camp alone.

      “This is the direct speech of a person who was not engaged in time and the Russian side, a person who even at that time said that in this one camp, 22 thousand died. And today the Polish side gives the figure 18 thousand - in all camps", - explains the military historian Igor Ivlev.
      1. tank66
        tank66 20 September 2021 07: 12
        +2
        Thank you for the amendment. Brothers, b, Slavs.
  24. buv59
    buv59 19 September 2021 14: 38
    +3
    Somehow a column was forming at the exit from Kabul. I walked past this column and in one UAZ I saw a paratrooper driver who was playing with a battered Mauser, worn in many places, just shining. But it was a Mauser !!! It reminded me of the movie "Liberation", when Olyalin envied the trophies of the infantrymen, to which he received the answer - you have to go on the attack more often.
  25. pryamoinalevo
    pryamoinalevo 19 September 2021 17: 21
    +3
    I speak classic k96
    With us, citizens can))))
    I don’t wear, so shoot
    Wearing a Glock, combat
    1. mmaxx
      mmaxx 20 September 2021 11: 31
      -1
      I hate you ... with fierce envy am sad
  26. pryamoinalevo
    pryamoinalevo 19 September 2021 17: 25
    +2
    I can buy for you and send to Russia in disassembled and hollowed form and a conversion kit separately
    1. kalibr
      19 September 2021 18: 12
      +1
      So my friend got a Beretta. Chilled according to the C1 standard. Dragged on "institutions".
  27. Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 19 September 2021 20: 05
    +3
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    In essence, the execution of a sentence is a strictly ordered circular action. So the use of Mauser and Walters in Katyn by the OGPU staff is at the level of "one grandmother said." In the forest, they would use rifles according to the circular.

    Moreover, the forensic physician had to record the death of the convicted person and make sure that it was he who was shot. The bureaucratic machine of the NKVD worked well. The anarchy and unprofessionalism of the 20s have sunk into oblivion.
  28. ycuce234-san
    ycuce234-san 19 September 2021 21: 35
    0
    Now these companies have again switched to the manufacture of their traditional products, that is, they are engaged in the production of hunting, civilian and sporting weapons, and various ... household products, for example, bicycles.


    This is called the conversion of the military-industrial complex and has happened in history many times, as well as the introduction of any restrictions for the losing parties.
  29. militarist63
    militarist63 19 September 2021 23: 57
    0
    Author! And what is VChK-OPTU and what is RKKD? wink
  30. ramzay21
    ramzay21 20 September 2021 00: 52
    +2
    Nagans in Tula were also produced under the Bolsheviks, and TTs were also produced there. The main weapon of the OGPU in the 30s was the revolver and TT. Let me remind you that up to July 22, 1941, almost 700 thousand TT were produced.
    As for foreign pistols, in the 30s these weapons were withdrawn from the Red Army and the OGPU, all law enforcement agencies switched to single types of weapons. The Red Army switched to TT, and these guns were used to arm the police and the OGPU.
    The Mauser remained primarily as award weapons.

    As for the versions about the execution of Polish prisoners of war by the NKVD, this version was pedaled to destroy Soviet-Polish relations and only anti-Sovietists. They were shot by the Germans from German weapons and German cartridges, they understood this even in London, the same Churchill understood perfectly well that this was bullshit, which was bungled in the department of Goebbels. The participation in this process of representatives of the Swiss Red Cross, who actively collaborated with Hitler, only confirms that the Poles were shot by the Germans, and they invented this performance after the defeat at Stalingrad in order to destroy the anti-Hitler coalition.
    1. hhurik
      hhurik 21 September 2021 11: 59
      +1
      The armored troops without exception were armed with Nagans - only they could fire off the crews from the loopholes of armored vehicles.
  31. Nikolay Sayenko
    Nikolay Sayenko 20 September 2021 08: 33
    +3
    soft eyeliner to Katyn, "we do not assert anything, but ...." There were 9 mm bullets, which in the USSR were not on the side! From the word at all! Was the NKVD aware that the Germans would attack in 41?
    1. ramzay21
      ramzay21 21 September 2021 20: 52
      0
      Brad-NKVD was aware that the Germans would attack in 41?

      For such sentiments and assumptions, until June 22, 1941, they could easily have been put up against the wall, like an alarmist, and absolutely right. It's just that today's "historians" find it inconvenient to admit it.
  32. UA3QHP
    UA3QHP 20 September 2021 10: 23
    +1
    Quote: Dzafdet
    With the adoption of the 7,62x25 cartridge, our country lagged behind the West by 70 years.

    Are you saying that in the west the 7,62x25 cartridge was put into service in 1860? After the Crimean War?
  33. mmaxx
    mmaxx 20 September 2021 11: 28
    +3
    Mauser and Parabellum are examples of precise and sophisticated German mechanics, of high quality. A mechanic that breathes with the labor of the people who made it. Men have always admired such things. And now, no one would refuse such toys.
  34. Private SA
    Private SA 20 September 2021 11: 39
    +1
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    Why did the Bolsheviks begin to buy very expensive Mauser, if it would be possible in Germany for the Chekists to buy Lugers, which were both cheaper and more convenient to carry?

    According to some memoirs, the Luger-Borchardt sleeve when thrown "up-left" is sometimes in the forehead when
    shooting from the right hand flew.
    1. Arkebusier
      Arkebusier 20 September 2021 22: 19
      0
      Right! The same is happening today with the 124 grain KPS Omega pistol and 5,4 grain "Power Pistol". Painfully!
      Therefore, I use Accrate No. 5 nitro powder (Lovex D036).
  35. mmaxx
    mmaxx 20 September 2021 11: 55
    +1
    But the author in vain pulled here the subject of execution. Although "Mauser hits a man like a fly." They didn't buy it for executions. And for the firepower in your pocket. Mauser used as now submachine guns.
    As the Cheka, so immediately and executions ... And then all who just had nothing to shoot people with.
  36. Klingon
    Klingon 20 September 2021 18: 38
    0
    I never thought that the Mauser from the Soviet films about the revolution was produced in this village of Oberndorf on the Neckar. I drove through this village several times on the Great on the road from Sulz to Rottweil. , it is located in the canyon of the Neckar River and on both sides on the slopes
  37. Arkebusier
    Arkebusier 20 September 2021 22: 05
    +1
    Der Autor hat vergessen zu sagen, warum diese Pistole "Bolo" genannt wird.
    Antwort: in Deutschland nannte man diese Exportvariante einfach bolschewistische Pistole, oder kürzer Bolo Mauser.
    Die C96 hat eine Lauflänge von 140 mm.
    Die Geschossgeschwindigkeit eines 85 Grainingeschosses
    - Mauser Patrone Deutschland 430 m / s
    - Patrone Tokarev UdSSR 400 m / s (schlechteres Pulver)
    - Tokarevpatrone Tschechoslowakei 500 m / s (bessere Verriegelung).

    The author forgot to say why this pistol is called "Bolo".
    Answer: In Germany, this export version was simply called the "Bolshevik pistol", abbreviated as Bolo-Mauser.
    The C96 has a barrel length of 140 mm.
    Gray Bullet Velocity 85
    - Cartridge Mauser Germany 430 m / s
    - Cartridge of Tokarev USSR 400 m / s (worse than gunpowder)
    - Patron Tokarev Czechoslovakia 500 m / s (better locking).
    1. Klingon
      Klingon 20 September 2021 22: 40
      0
      Aber das das Ding in Oberndorf geschmiedet war das hat mich gewundert, den ich habe dieses Dorf im Schwarzwald paar mal mit dem Fahrrad durchfahren und wusste es nicht laughing
  38. Cormoran
    Cormoran 21 September 2021 01: 20
    +1
    Shooting from the "Mauser" is not convenient. But in that cheerful forest war that the NKVD waged all the 20s on the western border of the USSR and a little to the west of it, the pistol-carbine was just that. The submachine gun looked even better there, but the choice of models was then very limited.
    1. hhurik
      hhurik 21 September 2021 12: 08
      +2
      If it is performed with a hoe, as with Pol-Sweat, then it is difficult and inconvenient, and from the Mauser - generally fire.
      1. Cormoran
        Cormoran 22 September 2021 10: 59
        0
        You can also kill with the lid of a tin can. And group executions are technology. And not the easiest one.
  39. Sharikov Polygraph Poligrafovich
    Sharikov Polygraph Poligrafovich 21 September 2021 11: 45
    -1
    But what about the fact that in the Katyn forest
    found German bullets in the skulls, and
    next to the skeletons, corresponding
    bullets of a cartridge case of ... 6,35-mm?!?
    This fact was not mentioned once ...
    If these are Chekists, then what were they shooting from ???
    We also specially purchased in Europe
    pistols, and original cartridges for
    him .25 caliber, which at that time
    in general has long been considered "ladies" ???
    But why such stupid spending ???
    By the way, Korovin (TC) as an option
    DOES NOT work in any way, because he is with "non-native"
    (NOT Soviet) cartridges 6,35x15 mm
    works disgusting ...
    Those. you can shoot without problems, but
    when ejected, the shell in the window bites
    almost every other half of the time
    due to underdelivery of the shutter back literally
    just a little :-)))
    You yourself understand, so be perverted and
    the shooting people would be tormented for sure
    DON'T become with a million
    trouble-free Nagans in warehouses ...
    Then how did you find yourself in Katyn exactly
    GERMAN 6,35-mm bullets and casings ???
    PS
    By the way, not at all in the subject, but
    promoted by Goebbels for the most
    "I don't want" brutal tank ace -
    M. Wittmann had as a personal pistol ... "ladies'" Walter No. 2
    just under the 6,35 mm.
    With him in his pocket, he died in the summer of 1944,
    with him and was buried, and now this
    Walter is in the museum after a recent
    exhumation of the found grave.
    So, the Deutsches used seemingly
    "frivolous" 6,35x15 mm and in the 2nd
    Worldwide too.
    1. kalibr
      21 September 2021 20: 33
      0
      Quote: Sharikov Polygraph Poligrafovich
      With him in his pocket, he died in the summer of 1944,
      with him and was buried, and now this
      Walter is in the museum after a recent
      exhumation of the found grave.
      So, the Deutsches used seemingly
      "frivolous" 6,35x15 mm and in the 2nd
      Worldwide too.

      Interesting. Didn't know that. Thanks!
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Liam
          Liam 21 September 2021 22: 43
          +1
          Quote: motorized infantryman
          Which version seems more plausible to you?






          ........
          Proceeding from the fact that all of them are inveterate, incorrigible enemies of the Soviet regime, the NKVD of the USSR considers it necessary ... the cases of 14 arrested and imprisoned in the western regions of Ukraine and Belarus, members of various counter-revolutionary espionage and sabotage organizations, former landowners, factory owners, former Polish officers, officials, defectors - to consider in a special order, with the application of capital punishment - shooting ".
          1. motorized rifle
            motorized rifle 21 September 2021 23: 14
            0
            Well then, of course, the first version, only in this case why 6.35mm? And it was easier to mow out of Maxim. After all, "..without calling and presenting ..." And yes, there is a date of 5.03 1940, i.e. since spring they were shot, but tell me for God's sake, why not with regular weapons?
            Or, this is from the Air Force:
            In October 1940, when the leadership of the USSR, apparently, began to understand that the most likely enemy in the foreseeable future were not "lords and lords", but Hitler, several officers of the Polish General Staff were brought to a dacha near Moscow, where Beria and Merkulov had a conversation with them about the possible creation of Polish units on the territory of the USSR for the war with the Germans. ...

            As one of the participants in the meeting recalled, Colonel Gorchinsky, Lieutenant Colonel Zygmunt Berling, who later actively participated in the creation of the Polish Army under the Soviet auspices, noted that "there are excellent personnel for this army in the camps in Kozelsk and Starobelsk," to which Beria replied: "A little they remained, because we made a big mistake, transferring most of them to the Germans. "
            Nothing is clear here at all
            1. Liam
              Liam 21 September 2021 23: 28
              -1
              Quote: motorized infantryman
              And it was easier to mow out of Maxim. After all, "..without calling and presenting ..."

              Why fantasize. Here is a video of the interrogation of a retired major general of state security
              Dmitry Stepanovich Tokarev, who held the post of head of the NKVD Directorate of the Kalinin Region in the spring of 1940. He was the owner of the "Big House" on Sovetskaya Street, in the basements of which 6295 Polish prisoners of war were shot.
              2,5 hours of the details you are interested in from one of the direct performers.

              ., .......
              communicated with those who shot. Starting with the infamous head of the NKVD firing squad, Vasily Blokhin, who changed into “special uniforms” before the executions: “A brown leather cap, a long leather brown apron, brown leather gloves with leggings above the elbows. And it made a terrible impression on me. I saw the executioner. "



              In total, about 30 people took part in the executions, according to Tokarev. Including his subordinates, mainly lower-level employees - drivers, prison guards.

              The shootings were put on a conveyor belt. Steps from the Ostashkovsky camp arrived in Kalinin almost every day. Each stage had to be shot overnight in order to bury and free the cells for the next batch of death row.
              Tokarev recalls that the first time they brought 300 people, they did not have time to kill everyone by dawn, so the next time they brought no more than 250.

              He tells how he pondered over a difficult task - how many shovels and excavators are needed for mass graves. But the experienced Blokhin only laughed at him: an excavator will dig graves, he brought with him from Moscow two "his" excavators
              .
              1. motorized rifle
                motorized rifle 21 September 2021 23: 53
                0
                Honestly, I don’t want to spend 2,5 hours and not hear a single word about Kytyn. There were curious characters in the Ostashkov camp, but not as military officers.
                I'm curious about something else, the decision on the case of the Poles is entrusted to TROIKA, this troika even has surnames spelled out there. Then if this trio spent five minutes on one decision (well, at least read the name and reasons and sign), then it had to sit 25 X 000 minutes or 5 minutes or 125000 hours or almost 2083 days of pure time without sleep and rest, but they claim that by October they had all been shot. Something in this thesis disintegrates.
              2. Wildcat
                Wildcat 22 September 2021 11: 36
                +1
                Another major general. Interrogation for 1,5 hours, for those who are 2,5 hours a lot.
          2. kalibr
            22 September 2021 05: 43
            0
            Here! You should always look at archival documents. After all, I knew that there was this, but ... I was too lazy to look. Thanks!
            1. Cormoran
              Cormoran 22 September 2021 09: 53
              +1
              These are archival fakes.
              1. kalibr
                22 September 2021 12: 06
                0
                Quote: Cormoran
                These are archival fakes.

                So much? And where did the people go? Three marshals out of 5. All the People's Commissars of the NKVD of the 30s ... Are they also fakes?
                1. Wildcat
                  Wildcat 22 September 2021 13: 15
                  0
                  hi
                  IMHO, in the case of Katyn, the correct question is this.
                  If there were 3 camps where the Poles were conducting road construction and they were not evacuated and the Germans came and after a while they shot everyone:
                  - Where are those Poles who fled when the NKVD guards left, and the Germans had not yet arrived?
                  - The answer "they continued road work by inertia" is not to offer, it looked bad even in the 40s.
                2. Cormoran
                  Cormoran 23 September 2021 11: 04
                  +1
                  We are talking about the Poles. The USSR shot them, yes. Those whom he considered class enemies. He had a reason, the 20s and 30s on the Polish-Soviet border there was a constant quiet war. But the USSR did not shoot Polish prisoners of war. Strictly speaking, they were not even prisoners of war.
                3. Cormoran
                  Cormoran 30 October 2021 19: 07
                  0
                  It was about the Poles.
              2. hhurik
                hhurik 22 September 2021 12: 20
                0
                Gorbachev and the company at the end of their reign put the fabrication of fakes on stream.
                https://sovsojuz.mirtesen.ru/blog/43473780103/Falsifikatsiya-istoricheskih-arhivov-prohodila-pri-Gorbacheve-i-
                1. Wildcat
                  Wildcat 22 September 2021 13: 25
                  0
                  hi
                  I have long wanted to ask ...
                  True or not: if you sit on patriotic / historical / Facebook and other sites in a bunch of accounts with the song "Everything is good, beautiful marquise, and who is not good, that enemy is" then "... if you fulfill the norm, you earn 45 thousand. the norm is 135 comments per shift, which lasts 12 hours "? Are they paid regularly, 2 times a month or in shifts?
                  It was just that there used to be infa that only 25-35 tr, and whoever did not fulfill the norm could be offended.
                  If anyone has infa, share it, plz.
                2. kalibr
                  22 September 2021 14: 24
                  0
                  Lyova! For the future: do not be ashamed! These blog articles are NOT SOURCE. So you can write anything you want. And reliably in appearance. But this is not the source. There is a textbook "Source Studies for Universities" - read it at your leisure.
                  1. hhurik
                    hhurik 23 September 2021 15: 32
                    +1
                    Too lazy to read about what happened before your eyes. I'm just old and I have a good memory - I remember very well the beginning of perestroika, the democrat and the ideologist of the CPSU Central Committee Yakovlev with the face of an alcoholic, who was the initiator of the falsification of such documents - well, which he and his accomplices got to. For the end justifies the means. Ilyukhin, for all his shortcomings, evokes more respect for his statements.
                    For the future, I admire people who present their cockroaches as some kind of truth.
                    1. kalibr
                      23 September 2021 16: 25
                      0
                      Quote: hhurik
                      I'm just old and I have a good memory - I remember the beginning of perestroika very well.

                      I am also not young, 54 years old, lecturer of the RK CPSU and associate professor of the history of the CPSU. And the memory is professional. And I worked in the party archives of the Central Committee of the Komsomol, Samara, Saratov, Ulyanovsk, Penza. And I know how difficult it is to forge documents of such importance. As for Ilyukhin, then ... when he tried to become the governor of the Penza region, I was one of those who did not let him go there. He did not impress me as a very clever person ... We "made" him as a kid ... Maybe he was also "made" by others? They slipped the information, he bought it. Well, there was no spark of God in him to find, unearth all this ... I even failed to speak correctly at our university ...
  40. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 22 September 2021 14: 41
    0
    Quote: Ua3qhp
    Quote: Dzafdet
    With the adoption of the 7,62x25 cartridge, our country lagged behind the West by 70 years.

    Are you saying that in the west the 7,62x25 cartridge was put into service in 1860? After the Crimean War?

    We returned to caliber 9 by 19 in 1993. Well, take a calculator there ... Our connection was all curve, did not correspond to European standards ...
    1. Cormoran
      Cormoran 23 September 2021 11: 11
      0
      This cartridge really appeared based on the specific needs of the NKVD. But in the Patriotic War, specific offensive tactics were developed for him. It is not original, but the PPSh went there like a ball in a pocket.
    2. UA3QHP
      UA3QHP 23 September 2021 11: 49
      +2
      Quote: Dzafdet
      We returned to caliber 9 by 19 in 1993.

      Only there is no sense in this, except for the commercial one.
  41. PilotS37
    PilotS37 22 September 2021 16: 43
    0
    Hmmm ...
    What a hack this time!
    And who would have thought that all this was due to the revolutionary Mauser ...
    1. kalibr
      22 September 2021 17: 16
      0
      Quote: PilotS37
      What a hack this time!

      Truth? So I liked it! I have a textbook for universities, students of PR and advertising, as well as journalists, the publishing house INFRA-M "Technologies of Public Opinion Management" - just an example from there one to one! Nothing, soon there will be another one, the name has already been invented, the material is being written.
      1. PilotS37
        PilotS37 22 September 2021 18: 42
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        Truth? So I liked it!

        But to me, on the contrary, no! Before you come "to you": everything is decorous, people thank the author, communicate politely with each other ... The samovar with tea and bagels are just not enough.
        And here: hello! Rudeness climbed, rudeness ... And a bunch of poorly thought out (this is at least!) Posts!
        Not! Not that...
        1. kalibr
          22 September 2021 20: 32
          0
          Variety is important. The samovar and tea with bagels are insipid. It gets boring quickly. It is necessary sometimes and so that it was ...
        2. Wildcat
          Wildcat 23 September 2021 12: 58
          0
          hi
          More than 90 thousand views. 343 comments. Topic number one.
          IMHO, from the point of view of "clickbait" everything is fine.
          Well "hot".
          Yes
          If earlier the Armament and History sections were mostly similar to cozy cafes, where visitors gathered in groups of the same interests, now these sections are more like a public catering point on transport, where there is a large flow of a wide variety of visitors (if such an analogy is acceptable).
          Apparently, from the point of view of the investment attractiveness of the site, this is a positive process. And, probably, the process is inevitable and irreversible.
          The rules of communication change accordingly. If we continue analogies, you do not expect the same level of communication, for example, from the cafeteria of the Moscow State University and the café near the station "Do the Good Way"? You have to match ....
          feel
          What does the Latin course tell us? winked Si fueris Romae, Romano vivito more, Si fueris alibi, vivito sicut ibi.
          1. Gunfighter95
            Gunfighter95 24 September 2021 11: 58
            +4
            100%
            On the Hansa, the same situation occurred.
            About 15 years ago it was still interesting there.
            I got great pleasure from communicating with like-minded people - experts and lovers of weapons. But then too many people appeared who had nothing to do with this topic ...

            The article is most likely from the "Opinions" section. There she would have been in place.
            The statement (or question?) Made in the title does not have a clear confirmation in the content of the article. Rather, "thinking out loud" ...
            In my opinion, it is least of all related to the section "Weapons".
            Only two paragraphs are devoted to the "bolo" itself, plus a few photos with captions.
            Moreover, the view on the left is labeled as the view on the right, and vice versa.
            Actually, there is little about weapons even in the comments.
            Because the accents are on the other ... alas ...
            But the author succeeded in the "hype".

            With respect to all participants in the discussion,
            1. Wildcat
              Wildcat 24 September 2021 13: 32
              0
              Probably, it would be better if such articles were laid out in two headings at once, for example "Armament" and "Opinions".
              Under the heading "Armament" it would be good to give the author of the article the moderator's rights in order to prevent deviations from the topic or incorrect behavior of commentators.
              And in the "Opinions" section, leave complete freedom of self-expression. Those who want normal communication go to "Armament", where the author, who is also the moderator of the discussion, maintains order. Whoever wants to condemn / curse / justify Ivan the Terrible / Stalin / Gorbachev for any reason and for no reason, let him stomp into Opinions.
              And the clickbait is intact, and the decency is respected, and the owners of Topvar sell one article to two audiences at once.
              good

              Continuing the catering analogies, it is good sometimes to sit with friends in a cafe or bar, to calmly talk over a glass of tea.
              But, hrt, take it, because sometimes you want to go to an institution where there is a noise, where tea is no longer poured in glasses, where you can not hear anything and where they walk not only on the floor, but also on the stage and on tables !!!
              Like today, Friday ... drinks
              In the meantime, while I go to the holyvar with the Old Electrician, he was already waiting, go ...
              1. Gunfighter95
                Gunfighter95 24 September 2021 22: 53
                +2
                Support! drinks
                It is necessary to separate the wheat from the chaff.

                Yours faithfully,
                1. Wildcat
                  Wildcat 25 September 2021 17: 50
                  0
                  hi
                  It would probably be possible for you, as the author of the articles, to discuss this issue with the administration. Everyone would benefit!
                  fellow
                  For me, with my three warnings from the administration for discussions without obscene vocabulary with the Stalinists and other fans of the Katyn executions, this is a little uncomfortable to do.
                  Moreover, again my posts are being deleted, and I see no point in complaining - if it is to the admins, then it is pointless, if Roskomnadzor, then Topvar will be shut down after several warnings ... and this is not at all good, where then to read about AutoMag?
                  And this would be a violation of other people's inherent right to freedom of speech ...
                  request
  42. Outsider V.
    Outsider V. 25 September 2021 13: 32
    0
    ... the "view of the Mauser" C-96 in Soviet service as a "weapon of firing squads" is a tribute to ideology rather than history. " That is, it means that someone did express such an opinion. But it would be curious to know what it was at least somehow based on. But ... it was just this that we failed to find out!


    I remembered a paragraph from the White Guard:
    "They hated the Bolsheviks. But not with point-blank hatred, when the one who hates wants to go to fight and kill, but with cowardly hatred, hissing, from around the corner, from the darkness. reading newspapers that described how the Bolsheviks shoot Mauser in the back of the heads of officers and bankers and how shopkeepers sell horse meat contaminated with glanders in Moscow. Hated everyone - merchants, bankers, industrialists, lawyers, actors, homeowners, cocottes, members of the state council, engineers, doctors and writers ... "
    1. Gunfighter95
      Gunfighter95 25 September 2021 18: 00
      +2
      ... and the journalists who wrote this nonsense in these newspapers ... The main thing was to spoil the new Bolshevik government. In modern terms, the press was then an element of hybrid warfare.
      And at that time, S96 Bolo did not exist yet. The topic of the article is about him, and not about Mauser in general. laughing .

      Yours faithfully,
      1. Outsider V.
        Outsider V. 25 September 2021 20: 06
        0
        The topic of the article is, of course, Bolo, but the quote above says
        about Mauser "C-96 in Soviet service
        ... And not only Bolo were in the Soviet service. To quote the same article:
        The USSR acquires Mauser pistols (mainly 7,63-mm pistols model 1912, which were kept in warehouses)
        .

        smile
        1. Gunfighter95
          Gunfighter95 26 September 2021 12: 33
          +3
          Sorry, but you are citing Bulgakov's quote about the events of 1918! And when was the USSR formed?
          "... Mingled in a heap, horses, people ..."
          The article deals (you yourself quote) about the Soviet period (that is, after December 30, 1922). I'm not even talking about the terminology of that time (1918), especially among journalists.
          Then in the newspapers it was often possible to read about the "Browning revolver" ... laughing
          And Gaidar has a Mauser revolver in the School, which he carried in his back pocket of his trousers - and this, apparently, was still a Mauser 1910 or 1910/14 pistol in 6,35 caliber.


          Yours faithfully,
          1. Outsider V.
            Outsider V. 27 September 2021 10: 33
            0
            Something in our dispute flared up from scratch ...

            Okay, I agree, the quote about the USSR is unsuccessful due to the discrepancy between the dates. I thought about it myself, but it was too late to fix it.

            Let's replace it with this:
            Kozhanka and Mauser became the "calling card" of security officers, commissars, crews of "Comrade Trotsky's propaganda armored train" and all sorts of chieftains, fathers and ... sailors-anarchists.


            As you know, Trotsky's train appeared in 1918. I supplemented it with a quote from Bulgakov. Of course, in 1918 we cannot talk about the Bolo model, but the C96 Mauser were in use. Hopefully, horses and people aren't mingling together now?

            We add that Bulgakov also often referred to the Browning as a revolver. The usual literary liberty.
  43. Cheerock
    Cheerock 27 September 2021 22: 40
    +1
    Katyn, billions were shot from Mauser, specially designed for the convenience of shooting billions. Shpakovsky can be seen immediately from this kind of text, you don't even have to scroll to the end to find out the author good
  44. Dmitry from Yakutia
    Dmitry from Yakutia 17 October 2021 16: 26
    0
    In fact, cartridges of 7,65x17 mm were found in Katyn. In fact, it was not in the USSR, except for small purchases for the premium weapons of the top. What does the Mauser cartridge have to do with it?
  45. Ahmad Khan
    Ahmad Khan 26 October 2021 21: 04
    0
    Nice car from childhood, from Soviet films. I did not hold it in my hands. I saw the test with my grandfather, over 70 years old. He somehow uncertainly held it, ran left and right.
    Until you shoot a couple of magazines (clips), you will not understand.
  46. Nikolay Sayenko
    Nikolay Sayenko 3 January 2022 23: 12
    0
    in Katyn there was a 9mm caliber. In the 90s they tried to sell that the Chekists had specially bought "parabellums" for execution in order to show the atrocities of the Germans to the whole world. That is, Stalin did not know that Hitler would attack, but the Cheka was aware. Here is such a fairy tale ....
  47. IVZ
    IVZ April 3 2022 11: 13
    0
    What's with the mass shootings? Pistols were armed with operational officers, not commandants. It's about the cartridge. The question of the development of the Soviet industry was being resolved. production of pistol cartridges. The same story as with the revolver. - the rifled part of the barrels for this cartridge, the same as that of the mosquito. Well, any special service is trying to gain an advantage in armament over mere mortals. 10auto (ordered by the FBI), 357 Zig-Sauer (US Presidential Security Service), 9x21 TSNIITOCHMASH. And the question of cost most likely was not critical. Who needs a heavy and large-sized pistol for powerful and rare, and therefore expensive ammunition, with a short barrel? Here is a big order. Well, our public is not spoiled for choice, and for the fight against banditry and counterfeiting, "bolo" is quite appropriate.