Military Review

And again "Armata" on the waves?

86

In principle, these ships have already been spoken about on our pages, and said very fiercely by Klimov and Timokhin. Actually, actually sharing the essence (but not the intensity of passions) of the articles, I would like to focus on several other things. Which is reasonable, since everyone looks at the problem from their side.


Project 22386 has been criticized for a long time. And, I must say, rightly so. If you take and read all the critical articles, you get the impression that the manual fleet generally have a poor idea of ​​what the fleet needs. And around this unfortunate project 22386, and in general, so many copies have already been broken that you can build a clipper.

And now a new portion of diesel fuel for the fire is already quite well blazing. And none other than the well-known Alexei Rakhmanov, the general director of USC, the United Shipbuilding Corporation, splashed. He said in an interview with Interfax that the project 22386 ship could become an experimental ship and not be part of the Russian Navy at all.

Let me quote Mr. Rakhmanov.

“If, within the framework of our understanding, modern technologies are applied on the corvette, then, in fact, its construction may be delayed until these technologies are developed. And if we take into account that the ship itself can become an experimental vessel, then never. It will plow the sea and develop new technologies. If it really is an experimental vessel, then it will be put into operation as an experimental vessel ”.

Somehow you know, in the style of the unforgettable Viktor Stepanovich Chernomyrdin, right? It is clear that if the project is completed to the corvette, then it will become a warship. And if it becomes an experimental vessel, then it will not be a combat one.

The only thing that is not entirely clear is what the ship under construction will become. In general, earlier Rakhmanov spoke very positively about the corvette project, talking about the fact that USC owns the technology and is provided with materials for the production of stealth ships.

And now - such a turn ... And how beautiful it all began ...

However, now we can safely say that everything began as usual in Russia. With very loud statements and promises. And the same Rakhmanov said that the USC had completely mastered the stealth technology and the 22386 corvette would be built on the model and likeness of the American Zamvolt, not for the night mentioned.

About how "Zamvolt" could become a reference ship, a separate conversation. But in this, perhaps, one can argue with Rakhmanov, and, moreover, reasonedly.

The destroyer with a displacement of 15 656 tons and a length of 190 m has an effective dispersion area, like a small fishing seiner. This is, of course, an achievement that cannot be overlooked. However, the cost of the ships turned out to be simply incredible. $ 22,5 billion to build three ships is a lot. Insanely many. And if you consider that after, with the start of operation, problems fell like rats from a sinking ship, it is no wonder that the construction of subsequent ships was frozen.

And until now, the command of the US Navy cannot really figure out how to use these ships.

Apparently, exactly the same история begins with Russian "stealth corvettes".

Much has been said about the technologies on the basis of which ship hulls are built. The Sredne-Nevsky shipyard specializes in the production of plastic mine action ships, and therefore the technologies for 20386 are appropriate.

As stated, the project 22386 was supposed to receive the latest radio-absorbing coating, as a result of which a ship with a length of 100 meters would have to reflect the radio signal like a small boat.

And the first corvette was supposed to be built by 2022, having laid down in 2016. 6 years to build such a ship - probably, it is quite difficult to build. In the United States, for example, it took three years for a Nimitz-class aircraft carrier.

And they showed the corvette model back in 2015, of course, at the forum. More precisely, at the International Maritime Defense Show in St. Petersburg.

The ship is not small. Length 109 meters, displacement 3400 tons. The maximum speed according to the project is 30 knots. In theory, there should have been innovations, befitting the newest ship built in the 21st century.

However, from the very beginning, even the model surprised the specialists. Especially the armament layout.

Yes, they do not practice placing artillery pieces behind launchers in the world. Project 22386 has a 100-mm gun for some reason located behind the Redut launcher.

So much has already been said on this score that it is simply not worth repeating. Further. The installation of the Uranus anti-ship missile system, we note, is by no means the most modern - nonsense.

ZRAK "Kortik" and two 30-mm AK-630 assault rifles are also not the best protection. But it's better than nothing, because with Redoubt everything doesn't look very nice so far. But AK-630s are at least useful if you need to shoot some small target such as a pirate boat. Another question - what did the pirate boat forget in the waters of the Black or Baltic Sea, or the Arctic Ocean?

Helicopter hangar, it is also a warehouse for replaceable modular equipment. Yes, Project 22386 was created in the era when everyone was looking at the American littoral ships Freedom and Independence, and some were touched by the advanced modular weapons scheme.

And these some decided that the new Russian ship should also have everything like the Americans. Modular and replaceable.

Meanwhile, the Americans really suffered with their littorals and their removable containers for almost 20 years and, as you know, abandoned this interesting but difficult task. And the modular ships of the coastal zone are slowly being decommissioned and removed from the fleet.

And we have? And for starters, we do not have modular weapons, with the exception of the Club-K complex. Export version of "Caliber". What to change these modules to is one of the good questions.

Of course, given that a 3-ton boat is being built twice as slow as a huge trough with more than 100 tonnes (“we are talking about Nimitz”), then yes, something could be invented during this time.

But is it worth it to invent this modular-container weapon, if those who invented it have already begun to abandon it?

Further with the weapons, too, everything is not very good. Corvette one of the main tasks has the task of finding and destroying enemy submarines. For this, the ships must have a sonar station and an anti-submarine helicopter. These two components are the minimum search kit for causing maximum trouble to the submarine.

On the corvette 22386 there is an option for the placement of launchers of the "Packet-NK" complex. There is no clear data on how and where the hydroacoustic station will be located, providing data for "Package-NK". But there is information that the sonar station "Minotaur" or "Vignette" can be used on the ship.

A towed station is not bad. If the power plant allows. And it just does not allow to properly tow the GAS, because on Project 22386 they decided to bungle a very peculiar power plant. The economical and exploratory move, as conceived by the authors, should be provided by two ADR-1600V electric motors with a total power of 4 hp. This is not enough to tow the Minotaur at the proper speed.

Of course, no one canceled the work under the M90FR either. But the question arises of the need for these low-power electric motors, unable to give the ship the required speed.

The Ka-27PL helicopter, of course, will be called a new technique only by the most inveterate optimist. But even this car cannot get permanent registration on board. There are difficulties with the operation of the under-deck hangar for the helicopter.

In general, it seems like a new ship, with a bunch of new technological solutions. But - they were not ready. All these unworked decisions have caused and continue to cause delays in the completion of the ship.

And the price of the ship continues to rise. To date, Project 22386 has already bypassed the project 22385 "Thundering" ship, which, according to experts, is much better armed and equipped. "Thundering" cost the treasury 22,5 billion rubles, and the cost of bringing to mind pr.22386 is estimated at 40 billion rubles.

As a result, the ship was pushed out of the shipyard and now reflections in the "Zamwolt" style begin. It is already clear that such an expensive ship is not needed in the series. And from here was born the decision to transfer him to an experimental vessel.

Why did it happen that way? Many say that Project 22386 became hostage to the exorbitant ambitions of its creator, the famous shipbuilding theorist, Professor Igor Zakharov. It so happened that at the end of his career, Igor Grigorievich found himself in the chair of the vice-president of the USC. And the former commander-in-chief of the Navy, Viktor Chirkov (a big fan of American modular ships), became the main adviser to the president of the USC.

As a result, this ship appeared. Absolutely incapacitated, copying essentially American ships, which were recognized as unsuccessful and, apparently, will be withdrawn from the fleet.

It is difficult to say whether this ship, which received the name "Mercury" in honor of the heroic brig, will be brought up to standard. On the one hand, the "godfather", one might say, was Putin, so the process of injecting funds can continue. With roughly the same chances of success.

It is possible that the transfer of "Mercury" to an experimental vessel will save some of the spent 30 billion rubles. Some, because no experiments and tests can recoup such costs.

The American Zamwalt turned out to be a completely impractical and expensive ship. And now three built destroyers await the decision of their fate. To all appearances, his Russian follower (and some hastened to christen Project 22386 the Russian "Zamvolt") is expecting about the same fate: having digested the budget, he will be quietly and ingloriously written off.

Not everything that is conceived in the United States can be enthusiastically copied.
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  1. New Year day
    New Year day 14 September 2021 05: 02
    +14
    If in the country in all directions
    ... in the style of the unforgettable Viktor Stepanovich Chernomyrdin ...
    then why should there be exceptions? The process is underway, incompetence and cut the dough rules everyone, the country is "developing", life becomes more fun
    it all began as usual in Russia. With very loud statements and promises.
    - this is our motto, this is our everything request
    1. bayard
      bayard 14 September 2021 05: 50
      +37
      If it was just ordinary incompetence ... It cannot be that so many people with the necessary knowledge and competencies are simply ... mistaken ...
      And this cannot be called ordinary corruption - it is too systemic and a lot ... and recklessly impudent ... without a sense of proportion and self-preservation, and without fear of responsibility ...
      This is PURPOSE INJURY at the highest level, where responsibility no longer comes.
      This is a criminal conspiracy with the enemy.
      This is the purposeful promotion of the WORST designs and projects in the series. Capable of causing MAXIMUM HARM to the country's defense.
      And the complete lack of reaction from the Supreme Commander and the Minister of Defense.
      Are they that incompetent?
      Are they so uninterested in it?
      Or is it all one game?

      But at least the fact that this monster will not go into the series is already a delight.
      So they are preparing to continue the series 22160 !!!!
      And "Zaslon" is idle, super-expensive and useless for serial corvettes - STEPS!
      And there are still NO AWACS aircraft.
      And the "Squirrels" - the Su-57 radar - too.

      Parades ... parades ... PR ... and bragging ...

      ... No shame, no conscience, no honor.
      1. Grandfather
        Grandfather 14 September 2021 06: 15
        +5
        The navy, as a "stepson", remains the same. Where are our Nakhimovs and Ushakovs?
        1. For example
          For example 14 September 2021 09: 53
          +1
          Quote: bayard
          This is DIRECTED HARMFUL

          I do not agree.
          Ideological or clever people with some political purpose can harm purposefully.

          In this case, all the chairs are occupied by pull.
          The times when production managers were talented engineers are in the past.

          Now the right person sits in the manager's chair, and engineers serve him.
          At the same time, the engineer has no right to doubt the competence of the chair-occupying chief. Otherwise, the seller will go to "Magnet".

          In the end, everyone is just mastering the budget.
          How they can.
          No ideology. Not any purposeful sabotage.

          As they say, who studied what.

          They wanted the best, but it turned out as always.

          Such a fun life has come.
          1. bayard
            bayard 14 September 2021 15: 52
            +1
            Quote: For example
            In this case, all the chairs are occupied by pull.

            Quote: For example
            Now the right person sits in the manager's chair, and engineers serve him.
            At the same time, the engineer has no right to doubt the competence of the chair-occupying chief.

            Quote: For example
            In the end, everyone is just mastering the budget.
            How they can.
            No ideology. Not any purposeful sabotage.

            This is true, but these are the performers.
            They should be stupid, greedy and irresponsible. After all, it is so convenient to write off everything on stupidity later.
            But the task is set to them by ideological, purposeful and very competent entities.
            Stupidity is a universal excuse for sabotage and planned sabotage.
            And the problem for the Navy is not because the ships were not designed that way, but because someone pushed through the terms of reference for SUCH ships, and then lobbied hard.
            And this case is not at all isolated - not a single ship has been built without a garland of problems and flaws. Even the long-suffering, but generally good "Gorshkov" apart from the already solved problems, has one serious and unsolvable problem in this configuration - a serious lack of speed. Moreover, both the speed of the economic course and the maximum one. And this is due to the choice of an irrational power plant with weak diesel engines that cannot add their torque with afterburners. But there was an opportunity to choose a power plant on gas turbine pairs M75 (7 l / s) + M500FR (90 l / s), which would provide both a sufficient economic speed, and, plus their revolutions on the gearbox, an excellent maximum speed ... the rest of the ships are even worse. But these are the basic characteristics on which the ability to perform combat missions depends. For such ships cannot fail to catch up / chase the enemy, but break away from the pursuit and break the distance. As a result - giving back the initiative to the enemy and knowingly losing position in almost any situation.
            It is nonsense ?
            Is this EXACTLY stupid?
            Well, other examples are just a dime a dozen.
            Quote: For example
            Such a fun life has come.

            There is nowhere more fun.
            1. timokhin-aa
              timokhin-aa 20 September 2021 09: 00
              +1
              And this is due to the choice of an irrational power plant with weak diesel engines that cannot add their torque with afterburners.


              With Gorshkov, they just can. Structurally at least
              1. bayard
                bayard 20 September 2021 13: 23
                0
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                With Gorshkov, they just can. Structurally at least

                Then its high-speed characteristics amaze simply immensely. what It turns out that 65 400 horses cannot accelerate the VI 5400 t boat even up to 30 knots ??
                Yes, he should fly like crazy on some afterburners.
                I understand, the hydrodynamics of the HAC nose cone ... but damn it - 29,5 knots !!!
                65 horses ... Even 400 ... This is nonsense.
                And this is not to mention the marching speed, which no gate can keep up with, no one to run away from.
                And this is exactly the case when a completely successful ship in all other respects, in wartime, becomes a turtle, completely devoid of initiative.

                And to be honest, I heard that it is better not to add to this power plant - they will smash each other in ... fig. Perhaps the first domestic power plant for "Admiral Golovko" and thus smashed. The one that was put on first, and then - after a year and a half ... again put on the "first domestic". So, according to the very first, rumors reached that during the test at the stand it almost smashed ... Probably still not "a little" ...
                A turbine with a turbine would have added up completely. And the speed, even with such hydrodynamics, would have received 31 - 31,5 knots.
                But instead of a proven path, they were looking for ... tricky.
                1. timokhin-aa
                  timokhin-aa 20 September 2021 19: 59
                  +1
                  There, the point is precisely in hydrodynamics - a bulb with a GAS is large. The turbine plus the turbine is now being drawn. And it's even technically easier.
                  But in our conditions, these things are done for a very long time.
          2. Serg koma
            Serg koma 15 September 2021 06: 23
            +1
            Quote: For example
            The times when production managers were talented engineers are in the past.

            "Since yesterday -" specialists "who bought diplomas, today" specialists "who studied for the sake of the Unified State Exam are coming, tomorrow" specialists "certified" at a distance "will come ...." (R)
        2. New Year day
          New Year day 14 September 2021 11: 36
          +3
          Quote: Dead Day
          where are our Nakhimovs and Ushakovs

          Oranges will not be born from aspen
          1. for
            for 14 September 2021 21: 21
            0
            Quote: Silvestr
            Oranges will not be born from aspen

            And who is your aspen?
        3. Ryaruav
          Ryaruav 14 September 2021 19: 49
          +1
          all the high-profile victories of the Russian fleet remained in the era of sailing ships
      2. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter 14 September 2021 07: 19
        +12
        Quote: bayard
        And the complete lack of reaction from the Supreme Commander and the Minister of Defense.
        Are they that incompetent?
        Are they so uninterested in it?
        Or is it all one game?

        What competencies can we talk about? costumes we will see the ruins of the Volgograd Tractor Plant, as a symbol of the past 20 years throughout the country.
        If we abstract and look at what is happening from the outside, we will see a tragicomic farce with a sad ending.
        1. Narak-zempo
          Narak-zempo 14 September 2021 08: 34
          .
          Quote: Stroporez
          ruins of the Volgograd Tractor Plant

          There are no ruins there, everything has been removed long ago and built up with houses for people.
          1. paul3390
            paul3390 14 September 2021 09: 27
            +5
            everything has long been cleaned and built up with houses for people

            These are the ruins of the Volgograd Tractor Plant ...
            1. I am not a robot
              I am not a robot 14 September 2021 09: 53
              -4
              well, if no one bought the products of this plant, how could it be saved
              1. paul3390
                paul3390 14 September 2021 10: 05
                +1
                Liberal fairy tales again? Otherwise, we are all out of tune, as the Soviet enterprises led to bankruptcy!
                1. I am not a robot
                  I am not a robot 14 September 2021 10: 39
                  -2
                  and here they are liberal or some other fairy tales, just how a plant can survive without selling its products,
                  1. paul3390
                    paul3390 14 September 2021 12: 32
                    +5
                    And how can he give out products if they have withdrawn the turnover from him for a clean one? Without money - and there will be nothing to sell.
                    1. I am not a robot
                      I am not a robot 14 September 2021 15: 32
                      -3
                      what does it mean they seized the revolver? you cannot buy without money, not sell. and where in the 90s people could get money to buy a tractor from this plant, if then people had nothing to eat, and since no one buys a tractor, then a tractor plant that produces a tractor will not survive - logic
                2. The comment was deleted.
                3. Petro_tut
                  Petro_tut 14 September 2021 22: 37
                  -1
                  Otherwise, we are all out of tune with how Soviet enterprises drove them to bankruptcy!

                  Solidarity - milling cutter, AZLK, ZIL, Tagaz, the list is simply huge in number and miraculous in essence ...
              2. vtiper
                vtiper 14 September 2021 13: 17
                +7
                Just like in the 90s, factories for the production of ordinary lighting bulbs were closed !!!
                Tell me more that you didn’t buy them.
                Your text is a classic of liberal propaganda, but it is worth digging a little deeper (lack of loans for production and, as a result, working capital, high property tax, ruble-to-dollar exchange rate, etc.) and nothing remains of this argument.
                1. Vadim237
                  Vadim237 14 September 2021 15: 20
                  0
                  "Lack of loans for production and, as a result, working capital, high property tax, ruble / dollar exchange rate. Etc. - Hello to the open market and the market economy - in which it is not the state that decides what and from whom, but each individually. Alas, all these closed enterprises they were not originally intended to work in such conditions - they were created to work in a planned distribution economy where there is one owner, one customer and a consumer - the state is also a super monopolist of competition, all these plants and factories collapsed in the 90s and 2000s and continue to go bankrupt and close by inertia critically worn-out capacities, high production costs and the lack of competitive products.And considering how many dozens of countries of the world the USSR dragged on its backs from the beginning of the 60s for free and unequal barter - the closure of thousands of enterprises after the collapse of the USSR is not surprising, and the army was reduced by three times. quite a few enterprises provided.
                  And no excuses like "Your text is a classic of liberal propaganda"
                  1. Petro_tut
                    Petro_tut 14 September 2021 22: 42
                    +1
                    Greetings to the open market and the market economy - in which it is not the state that decides what and from whom to buy, but each individually.

                    And there was no market, there were "interests of business entities"
                    Tagaz, for example, went bankrupt not long ago, its cars are still alive and please their owners, he just interfered with Gaza, I think you know the name of the owner of Gaza
            2. Vadim237
              Vadim237 14 September 2021 15: 04
              -5
              The plant died due to the fact that its products were not needed by anyone back in the 90s, now everyone needs completely different tractors, such as Minsk Rostselmash tractors. And finish your hurdy-gurdy about closed factories.
              1. paul3390
                paul3390 14 September 2021 15: 10
                +2
                Yes - we all remember well, the Soviet Union did not produce anything useful except galoshes. We don't need to be reminded so often.
              2. Overlock
                Overlock 14 September 2021 17: 53
                +10
                Quote: Vadim237
                And finish your hurdy-gurdy about closed factories.

                Why not talk!

                Let's start with agriculture: they cut it by 4 times, and what about the production now? Where do carrots, beets, potatoes, fruits come from? Why are bananas cheaper than carrots?
                Manufacturing industry: reduced by 30% and we have local furniture, or is timber being chased abroad?
                Construction with electricity has declined a little, but what is the affordability of housing and electricity for the population? Why did 3 gasified houses explode with the beginning of the cold? Probably cold, but heating your home with electricity is too expensive.
                Etc. etc.
          2. Region-25.rus
            Region-25.rus 14 September 2021 10: 54
            +9
            There are no ruins there
            And what were the ruins before? Is it a plant? Not jobs for people where they worked and received salaries?
            everything has long been cleaned up and built up with houses for people.
            for "people" or for "respected" people)? It means for the first mortgage for 30 years (and go and save up for the first installment), or for the second - "respected"? Who, sitting on their backs, will be the first to buy apartments there and rent them out to them? Well, super! good
            1. Vadim237
              Vadim237 14 September 2021 15: 27
              +2
              On the site of the Volgograd tractor, nothing has yet been built while the territory is being removed from the remnants of the demolished buildings - the division for the production of BMD 4 and Shells and Octopuses continues to work. I heard that on a part of this territory they want to build a production of construction equipment, bulldozers, loaders, graders.
              1. Region-25.rus
                Region-25.rus 14 September 2021 18: 05
                +2
                hi Well my answer. this is a response to another comment. And rather it refers in general - now the studio where I work is located in the building of a former chemical factory. And next to it there are administrative buildings and workshops, all under the offices. And so ... and so throughout our country.
                1. Roman_vh
                  Roman_vh 15 September 2021 17: 11
                  +1
                  and you, too, work in the "studio", not in a hot shop. And you don't have such a desire. I can say that we had a hundred in Tushino, there were all sorts of high-tech industries. Including TMKB Soyuz. He had stands for aviation engines, a very characteristic sound from them was. But there is nothing there, but I got here three years ago in Tomilino. I was looking at the index of the Soyuz TMKB, when I stopped I heard the characteristic howl of engines on the stands. Even the abbreviation did not have to be changed. There was Tushinskoe, now Tomilinskoe.
                  1. Region-25.rus
                    Region-25.rus 15 September 2021 18: 31
                    +2
                    as you do in the "studio" you work, and not in a hot shop
                    how do you know where, and what I did for my incomplete 50 and what did I do before "working in the studio" (the last six years)?
                    stopping to hear the characteristic howl of engines on the stands.
                    and hence the conclusion that it is so everywhere throughout the country? But I have other information.
      3. New Year day
        New Year day 14 September 2021 11: 35
        +14
        Quote: bayard
        If it was just ordinary incompetence ... It cannot be that so many people with the necessary knowledge and competencies are simply ... mistaken ...

        absolutely right! Only a person without brains can think so.
        From the memoirs of B. Chertok about the construction of the air defense of Moscow, when for a long time 2 officials could not agree on the issue:
        “Tell them,” Beria said, “that if two communists cannot agree between themselves, then one of them is an enemy. I don't have time to figure out which of the two is really the enemy. Give them another day for approval.
        The assistant left, five minutes later he returned to the office and put in front of Beria the schedule, endorsed by both chiefs. "
        - Boris Chertok, Rockets and People
      4. Mustached Kok
        Mustached Kok 14 September 2021 11: 55
        +2
        Well no. In most cases, this is a combination of corruption and inconsistency between the customer, the contractor and the contractors. The first want one thing, the second can do something else, the third offer something completely different - and the result, crap
      5. Machito
        Machito 15 September 2021 10: 22
        +1
        Where did Klimov and Timokhin disappear to? Without them, it was somehow empty on VO.
    2. Ross xnumx
      Ross xnumx 14 September 2021 06: 14
      +5
      Quote: Silvestr
      The process is underway, incompetence and cutting the dough rules everyone, the country is "developing", life becomes more fun

      good
      Firstly, I am glad for your appearance and activity on the site. drinks
      Secondly, I support your idea. good
      ==========
      ... having digested the budget to be quietly and ingloriously written off.

      Thank you, Roman, as well as other authors who are worried about the fate of their Fatherland. Your examples of simple digestion of budgetary funds are very indicative!
      good
      1. New Year day
        New Year day 14 September 2021 19: 14
        0
        Quote: ROSS 42
        Firstly, I am glad for your appearance and activity on the site.

        Thank you for your kind word. hi
        1. Ross xnumx
          Ross xnumx 14 September 2021 19: 28
          -1
          Quote: Silvestr
          Thank you for your kind word.

          Glad to have thoughtful, smart and knowledgeable users on the site. And you were absent for a while, maybe I was so busy that I did not notice your presence (renovating an apartment is a troublesome business).
          hi
  2. Dart2027
    Dart2027 14 September 2021 07: 33
    +5
    The idea of ​​an experimental vessel is very good. Let me explain why.
    There is a design bureau that designs ships for the Navy. It created a new ship, the ship turned out to be good, it was launched into series. What should designers do? They need to look for another job. Why? Because the new project will not appear soon, and the technical support of the one under construction is a completely different amount of money. And why will they be paid a salary? Not from what. When Timokhin talks about lobbying the design bureaus for new projects to the detriment of standardization, he is generally right, but if this is not done, then our design bureaus of the corresponding profile will simply fall apart. There are no new projects, which means there is no money for salaries, and, accordingly, the people scatter.
    An experienced vessel, which will be a kind of eternal long-term construction for working out everything and everything, can solve this problem. On the one hand, there is an opportunity to save personnel, keeping them busy, on the other hand, when the time comes to launch a new series, the designers will have at the ready already tested technical solutions that can be quickly implemented on serial ships.
    1. Avior
      Avior 14 September 2021 07: 51
      +11
      Sorry, I will correct you slightly.
      The vessel is not experimental, but experimental
      https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Опытовое_судно
      Test vessel is a specially equipped vessel designed for carrying out experiments, tests and experiments related to the vessel itself, whether it be testing new types of weapons, experiments with a power plant, researching new types of propulsion, hull shapes, and individual structural units of the vessel.

      As a rule, test vessels are converted from existing types of vessels and ships. Occasionally they are built specially for a special project.

      It is too expensive for an experimental vessel.
      1. Dart2027
        Dart2027 14 September 2021 07: 54
        +3
        Quote: Avior
        The vessel is not experimental, but experimental

        Yes, he described himself.
        Quote: Avior
        It is too expensive for an experimental vessel.

        Of course, initially it would have been better to take something from the old ships instead of metal launching (for example, the BDK project 1174), but since it happened so, then we must use what we have.
    2. Dante Alighieri
      Dante Alighieri 14 September 2021 10: 02
      0
      When Timokhin talks about lobbying the design bureaus for new projects to the detriment of standardization, he is generally right, but if this is not done, then our design bureaus of the corresponding profile will simply fall apart. There are no new projects, which means there is no money for salaries, and, accordingly, the people scatter.

      Those. You want to say that all the workers of the design bureau work piece-rate, and therefore the design bureau deliberately imposes bad projects on industrialists in order to somehow feed the employees? So what's the problem then? We transfer everyone to a salary, as the minimum wage we set, for example, the amount of the senior citizen's allowance (which, for example, for me, a purely civilian from a poor Siberian region, is already the ultimate dream). We give the award only for the successful completion of the order and if the project won a prize at the all-Union exhibition. And that's all - the problem is solved. In the end, we do not have these design bureaus that much and work in them from the strength of a couple of tens of thousands of people. Look what an army of all kinds of guardians, praisers and sweeteners contain and nothing. We'll feed a bunch of engineers some tea.

      Or is the problem here also in the fact that the management of design bureaus and manufacturing plants are closely affiliated with each other, and that both of them really want to receive super profits at minimal costs, and therefore their insatiable appetites can be satisfied only within the framework of a government contract? Or maybe the matter is in the very policy of the state, which encourages such behavior, arranging artificial selection and supporting only those design bureaus that demonstrate economic efficiency?

      If I'm wrong - correct.
      1. Dart2027
        Dart2027 14 September 2021 10: 12
        +2
        Quote: Dante
        You want to say that all the workers of the design bureau work piece-rate, and therefore the design bureau deliberately imposes bad projects on industrialists in order to somehow feed the employees?

        Not necessarily bad, but the more projects the better, and if there are none, then it's a pipe.
        Quote: Dante
        We transfer everyone to a salary, as the minimum wage we set, for example, the amount of the starley's allowance

        It is theoretically possible, but again they need to do something, because if you pay for anything, then it will not end well either.
        Of course, you can develop projects only on paper, but when it comes to implementation, it turns out that if in mathematics 2 + 2 = 4, then when creating hardware, it may be equal to 3, so there is no way without checking in practice. Stands are partially saved, but it is impossible to test the entire system on them.
        Quote: Dante
        and therefore their insatiable appetites can only be satisfied within the framework of a government contract

        And in what capacity should weapon designers work?
        Quote: Dante
        Or maybe the matter is in the very policy of the state, which encourages such behavior, arranging artificial selection and supporting only those design bureaus that demonstrate economic efficiency
        And what do you suggest? The Soviet system? So it was in the USSR in the navy that there were so many duplicate projects that mom do not worry.
        1. Dante Alighieri
          Dante Alighieri 15 September 2021 00: 12
          +1
          And what do you suggest? The Soviet system? So it was in the USSR in the navy that there were so many duplicate projects that mom do not worry.

          It’s like it’s not right now. There are 4 types of corvettes: the original 20380 with the Kortik air defense system, a slightly modernized 20380 with the Redoubt air defense system, a significant modification of the project in the form of 20385, now here is 20386, and there are also Cheetahs, etc. 11661. In general, a whole garden.
          In the days of the USSR, this was at least due to the confrontation with the West, when each unit was counted. What is the reason for this today, except for the inability of the industry in large volumes (or, as it seems to me, the ban on the production of such by certain stakeholders), I cannot explain.
          It is theoretically possible, but again they need to do something, because if you pay for anything, then it will not end well either.

          Did I say that they should just wipe their pants?
          Of course, you can only develop projects on paper

          Exactly what to develop on paper, exactly what to work out on the stands. In addition, today's technologies make it possible to perfectly modulate not only the appearance of the ship, but also most of the technological processes. And if the Americans succeeded in the distant 70s with the frigate O. Perry (which was developed by a computer, and people only finished the project), then why should we not succeed today?

          You can also recall the experience of domestic sharashki 40s - 50s. Of course, the analogy is not direct, nevertheless the engineers who worked there were essentially prisoners, but nevertheless they were fully supported by the state, they had more or less the necessary resource base for creating projects or conducting research, and they did not have to think about "daily bread" (although I had to think a lot about the meaning of being and the finiteness of life). And yes, most projects then were also done on paper, not so much came to implementation in metal, but nevertheless, all this knowledge, sometimes purely theoretical, formed a certain scientific base, which ultimately ensured the transition from quantitative indicators to qualitative ones. In the end, you yourself write that
          the more projects the better, and if there are none, then it's a pipe.

          This was exactly what was perfectly implemented in the USSR.
          This is also a good refutation of the thesis that an artist should be hungry. An artist can be and should, because infringement of the body often has a beneficial effect on the abilities of the spirit (chakras open, a third eye appears, inspiration and other nonsense comes), but an engineer who relies on science and mathematical calculations needs to use a brain that requires a lot of calories in his work, which means that nutrition should be appropriate.

          Again, I repeat now that the state has full support for whole armies of idlers and parasites, but for some reason no one disputes their need, but representatives of science who really benefit for some reason are still considered second-class people. This was already in the late USSR and we all remember how it turned out. Do you want a repeat of the situation?
          1. Dart2027
            Dart2027 15 September 2021 07: 14
            +1
            Quote: Dante
            One corvettes of 4 types
            This is what I’m talking about.
            Quote: Dante
            In the days of the USSR, this was at least due to the confrontation with the West, when each unit was counted.
            And what prevented you from building identical units? The reasons were the same as now.
            Quote: Dante
            In addition, today's technologies make it possible to perfectly modulate not only the appearance of the ship, but also most of the technological processes.
            This is true, but it still needs to be tested on iron.
            Quote: Dante
            they had more or less the necessary resource base to create projects or conduct research
            Let there be an experimental ship for testing in practice.
    3. abc_alex
      abc_alex 14 September 2021 23: 55
      -1
      Quote: Dart2027
      When Timokhin talks about lobbying the design bureaus for new projects to the detriment of standardization, he is generally right, but if this is not done, then our design bureaus of the corresponding profile will simply fall apart. There are no new projects, which means there is no money for salaries, and, accordingly, the people scatter.

      In fact, KBs get a percentage of the streak. This is how it is and how it was even in the USSR. That is why, for example, the Kamov Design Bureau lived so-so.
      That is why Timokhin is right. Low-volume shipbuilding is a dead end. NOBODY will contact the series of 2-3 ships in modern conditions.
      1. Dart2027
        Dart2027 15 September 2021 07: 16
        +1
        Quote: abc_alex
        In fact, KBs get a percentage of the streak.

        Truth? But I get a salary only for the release of documentation and adjustments to the issued, and I have not heard anything like this from my senior comrades.
  3. mvg
    mvg 14 September 2021 07: 42
    +6
    A corvette for the cost of a frigate ... that's okay. I still do not understand, but where are the INNOVATIONS? Where is nanotechnology, besides stealth coatings? Paint a fishing seiner instead of red lead with this wonderful coating and experiment with your health. Why was the execution with the confiscation of property canceled?
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 14 September 2021 09: 29
      +9
      1) Underdeck hangar on such a small ship with an elevator.
      2) Electric search line of 8-10 knots. This is the first Russian ship with this feature. Whereas in the world even the second echelon of shipbuilding countries is serially building ships with low-noise electric search engine. Simply adequate PLO (not against the DPRK) on the IPC with 2x112 cylinder twin is almost impossible.
      3) Modular unit with replaceable equipment.
      4) A new format of a single super-saturated superstructure.
      5) Increasing automation, but this just does not require a separate experimental ship.
      1. slm976
        slm976 14 September 2021 09: 39
        +4
        According to the ideas (innovations laid down), 20386 could really become a revolutionary ship, a new step in the construction of our fleet, unfortunately, as always, the implementation of these innovations let us down, and in the project itself there are many controversial points ... Anti-submarine ship without PLUR and normal GAS in the database, it's still too much.
        Therefore, this ship, most likely, will remain a very expensive stand for testing new technologies, on which all the bumps will be crammed before implementing any of this new in the series. Maybe it's for the best ...
      2. I am not a robot
        I am not a robot 14 September 2021 09: 49
        0
        which in the usa, for example, are serially building ships with a low-noise electric search engine and for a long time
        1. slm976
          slm976 14 September 2021 10: 14
          +2
          The United States is not a very good example here)), but the Britons use partial electric propulsion on their destroyers and frigates quite widely ...
          1. I am not a robot
            I am not a robot 14 September 2021 10: 19
            0
            it's just there that the commentator wrote that even the second echelon of shipbuilding countries has been serially building ships with a low-noise electric search engine for a long time, but we have just begun, but in reality, even in the us navy, we did not reach this
            1. donavi49
              donavi49 14 September 2021 10: 23
              +8
              Well, this is where it comes down to Burke, where there is no such function, namely they are riveted. Right now they have given birth to the necessity of a frigate and there will be an electric propulsion unit on Konst.

              Below I have provided a list of ships with this feature. Again, Germany is clearly not the first echelon, and Norway and Korea.
        2. donavi49
          donavi49 14 September 2021 10: 19
          +8
          Constellation. However, here the United States is not an indicator at all, since there is a diversification of tasks.

          Their allies are building - FREMM (both types), Di Revel (in all 3 variants), Baden Wutenberg, a new German frigate, Norwegian frigates (one of which is drowned), a new Dutch-Belgian frigate corvette from Damen, Korean Daigu, Japanese Mogami and Asahi, as well as Sigma export variants.
      3. mvg
        mvg 14 September 2021 10: 18
        0
        This is the first Russian ship with this feature.

        Then an even more stupid question: Can't you buy a finished project from Holland, for example? Why are these experiments in 40 billion Also fall under the sanctions?
        And Augusta has a normal helicopter, instead of the "dinosaur" Ka-27K
        A more aggressive policy is needed, an example of which is an attempt to buy the Norwegian branch of diesel engines, and not be shy about stealing technologies and unlicensed copies, for example, of Austrian aircraft diesels. Since the whole world is a booty to us, then we must answer.
        1. slm976
          slm976 14 September 2021 10: 35
          +1
          Then an even more stupid question: Can't you buy a finished project from Holland, for example? Why are these experiments in 40 billion Also fall under the sanctions?


          Can't be bought))).
          They won't sell it during interruptions))), remember Mistral?
          Secondly, how can you buy a ship project from a NATO country (from the enemy) and depend on it for the supply of spare parts and components?

          A more aggressive policy is needed, an example of which is an attempt to buy the Norwegian branch of diesel engines, and not be shy about stealing technologies and unlicensed copies, for example, of Austrian aircraft diesels. Since the whole world is a booty to us, then we must answer.


          Look how many manufacturers of modern power plants for warships are in total and what kind of manufacturers they are, which of them do you offer to quietly buy?))
          и
          1. mvg
            mvg 14 September 2021 14: 17
            +2
            Secondly, how can you buy a ship project from a NATO country (from the enemy) and depend on it for the supply of spare parts and components?

            No need to depend, but on Chinese kits you can make an analogue of Tiles, and BIUS. By the way, the documentation on the Mistrals should be, if not completely fools. We collected food for them. Armament, of course, is Russian. But auxiliary mechanisms, such as an elevator, the general concept .. Instead of Oto Melar, you can stick an A-190. The most interesting thing is to copy the PLO and towed buoys.
            Well, a helicopter, preferably more modern than a 50 year old turntable
            1. slm976
              slm976 14 September 2021 15: 10
              +1
              No need to depend, but on Chinese kits you can make an analogue of Tiles, and BIUS.

              Why do we need Chinese BIUS and RLK, when, in principle, we have our own? Poliment was cut into the frigates, really we can't make a normal working radar on the corvettes, another question is that the Zaslon with its golden mast climbed into the corvette theme, their competence raises some questions, therefore the fate of this radar causes some concern ... But since we have projects 20380 (the last series) / 20385/20386 completely obsessed with Zaslon, in the end it will be brought to mind, they will not go anywhere, the question is how much more time and money will have to be spent on this.

              By the way, the documentation on the Mistrals should be, if not completely fools. We collected food for them. Armament, of course, is Russian. But auxiliary mechanisms, such as an elevator, the general concept .. Instead of Oto Melar, you can stick an A-190. The most interesting thing is to copy the PLO and towed buoys.


              What you are writing about is called import substitution, take someone else's and make your own according to the model, it takes a lot of time and money, from here come ohrillions in the cost of the ship. For example, an elevator for a helicopter was drawn in 20386, but as far as I heard (purely OBS), no one produces such elevators in our country, and don't touch anything with this ship, the same crap is everywhere. The power plant is new experimental, the radar is new experimental, the lineup with a below-deck hangar is also new, everything must be done from scratch, and in one copy ... hence the insane cost and construction time.

              Well, a helicopter, preferably more modern than a 50 year old turntable


              So again, they are sawing a new sea helicopter, but when will the result be?))
              1. mvg
                mvg 15 September 2021 19: 15
                0
                only when will the result be?))

                They themselves answered for everything. You have to buy a ready-made project and copy it in a stupid way.
                Polyment-Redoubt was finished for 9 years and it is not yet known what happened. It does not correspond to the specified performance characteristics. There are big doubts about its ability to shoot down low-flying anti-ship missiles. There is simply nothing better, and delaying the construction of 22350 was already a crime.
                us Chinese BIUS and RLK

                We do not have such a BIOS as IJIS and its Chinese counterpart, or the French BIOS that is on the Mistrals. One of the reasons why the Mistrals were bought
                1. ANB
                  ANB 15 September 2021 23: 10
                  0
                  ... You have to buy a ready-made project and copy it into a stupid one.

                  There is a problem. What do you think, how much does it cost to order a round rubber seal for crane supports for 16 tons of lifting capacity at SRZ?
                  Taking into account the fact that rubber bands for platters are poured there in large quantities?
    2. Kuz
      Kuz 14 September 2021 10: 14
      +24
      Quote: mvg
      Why was the execution with the confiscation of property canceled?

      Because you have to shoot yourself
  4. Alex 1970
    Alex 1970 14 September 2021 08: 25
    +1
    Or maybe we should proceed from the fact that our fleet needs when ordering ships, and not look at overseas experiments, which ended in an incomprehensible way.
    1. PPD
      PPD 14 September 2021 11: 15
      +3
      So our fleet has changed its mind so many times, what it needs .. sad
      And it's not a fact that the opinion prevailing in the Navy and higher will not change again, with the consequences in the form of a heap of motley projects, spent not clear on what money and time belay
  5. slm976
    slm976 14 September 2021 09: 13
    0
    Satya Skomorokhov is already recognizable by the title (how not to kick Armata then?), As for the content of this opus, the author retells in his own words a recent critical article on the construction of a corvette of project 20386:

    Agile "Mercury" stumbled over vanity https://nvo.ng.ru/armament/2021-09-09/1_1157_mercury.html

    Unfortunately, it retells with errors ...

    Project 22386 has been criticized for a long time. And, I must say, rightly so. If you take and read all the critical articles, you get the impression that the leadership of the fleet generally has a poor idea of ​​what the fleet needs. And around this unfortunate project 22386, and in general, so many copies have already been broken that you can build a clipper.


    Author, project number of the corvette 20386You didn't even bother remembering the project number correctly!
    I don't understand, here's how you can write an article about something that you absolutely do not understand?

    Yes, they do not practice placing artillery pieces behind launchers in the world. Project 22386 has a 100-mm gun for some reason located behind the Redut launcher.


    BOD project 1155, with their bow "Dagger" look at you with surprise and condemnation ...

    As for the corvette of pr. 20386 itself, so many copies have already been broken and so many articles have been written (thanks to Klimov and Timokhin) that it is not possible to add something really new to this topic.
    1. Bashkirkhan
      Bashkirkhan 14 September 2021 11: 43
      +4
      Basically Skomorokhov and is engaged in free retelling of publications in the media. He definitely has no time to study the project numbers, the plan is burning for filling the site with content.
      1. Overlock
        Overlock 14 September 2021 17: 58
        +3
        Quote: Bashkirkhan
        He has no time to study the project numbers, the plan is burning to fill the site with content.

        So help the Author, fill the site with your thoughts, articles. Writing an article is not a couple of times to bang the keys. Everyone imagines himself to be a strategist ...
        1. mvg
          mvg 17 September 2021 00: 14
          0
          Writing an article is not a couple of times to bang the keys

          Tell this to "rabbit" Polonsky or political instructor Ryabov. One will teach you productivity, the second, how to stretch the "news" of many months ago, into a full-fledged article of 8-10 thousand letters, with repetition. And both do not understand what they are writing about.
  6. I am not a robot
    I am not a robot 14 September 2021 09: 51
    0
    and here's an armata tank
    1. Overlock
      Overlock 14 September 2021 17: 59
      +3
      Quote: Janerobot
      and here's an armata tank

      Despite the fact that when he was rolled out to Red Square and promised to join the troops? And where is this Armata now?
      1. I am not a robot
        I am not a robot 14 September 2021 18: 40
        -1
        well, the tests can always drag on, the technique is new
        1. Overlock
          Overlock 14 September 2021 18: 46
          +3
          Quote: Janerobot
          well, the tests can always drag on, the technique is new

          If only that.
          1. I am not a robot
            I am not a robot 14 September 2021 18: 47
            -1
            what else do you think
  7. CastroRuiz
    CastroRuiz 14 September 2021 11: 31
    0
    Electric engines are the solution to an effective PLO. But with them seams.
  8. p0pulivox
    p0pulivox 14 September 2021 11: 52
    -1
    Quote: Narak-zempo
    Quote: Stroporez
    ruins of the Volgograd Tractor Plant

    There are no ruins there, everything has been removed long ago and built up with houses for people.

    Quote: Janerobot
    well, if no one bought the products of this plant, how could it be saved

    Hey guys, the circus has already left! belay
  9. Bekasov Artem Andreevich
    Bekasov Artem Andreevich 14 September 2021 12: 34
    +4
    Roman, of course I understand everything, when you write an article there are mistakes and shortcomings, I am not an angel myself and I sin with this. But why on earth did the project 20380/20385 and 20386 turn into 22386 ??? And so on throughout the article! Please check the article from beginning to end!
  10. demiurg
    demiurg 14 September 2021 15: 10
    -3
    The author needs to learn how to change shoes in flight. The first tank battalion in kantemirovka is already equipped with Armata.

    For once succumbed to Western trends. It didn't take off. We stopped at one building. And on this basis, make some conclusions, and even sitting on the couch.
    1. Overlock
      Overlock 14 September 2021 18: 01
      +4
      Quote: demiurg
      The first tank battalion in kantemirovka is already equipped with Armata.

      Less than 6 years have passed! The T-14 was presented at the Victory Day parade in 2015. How many centuries will you re-equip your tank troops?
      1. Roman_vh
        Roman_vh 15 September 2021 17: 24
        -1
        This does not concern you. And in general, for what purpose are you interested?
  11. a.hamster55
    a.hamster55 14 September 2021 18: 08
    +1
    I wanted either Armata, or Sevryuzhin with horseradish, or to rip someone off.
  12. exo
    exo 14 September 2021 18: 27
    +1
    Somehow, weakly Rakhmanov, put it. "Technology Demonstrator" sounds cooler.
    And the trouble is precisely that the leadership of the USC and the admirals know what they need, but it seems that this does not go well with the interests of the country.
  13. Metlik
    Metlik 14 September 2021 21: 45
    +1
    Why should we blindly copy the decisions of the United States? Are they never wrong?
  14. anclevalico
    anclevalico 15 September 2021 08: 36
    0
    Until there is an indicative flogging of the guilty, nothing will change. In general, it's time to take the bald man out of the Kremlin. Under him, some kind of completely unpunished squandering of public money is taking place. No pension reforms are going to be enough to fund this shit.
  15. Barberry25
    Barberry25 15 September 2021 16: 32
    0
    laughing why is a single Mercury called "ships" ???
  16. ramzay21
    ramzay21 15 September 2021 23: 30
    +1
    Only a headless horseman can so skillfully manage our fleet and its rearmament.
    There is a successful frigate 22350, capable of performing air defense and anti-aircraft defense missions, it must be produced in a maximum series, and at a reduced cost, with the connection of other factories, because in addition to the Northern Shipyard, it can be built at the Amur plant and at Yantar.
    The corvette should perform the tasks of anti-aircraft defense and air defense, and only with such full-fledged capabilities and with a much lower price should it go into series. The possibilities of mass construction of such ships exist, and if the journalist Timokhin understands this, but the leadership of the USC and the Navy does not, then this leadership is not in its place.
    And misunderstandings 22386 are more correct and cheaper to simply cut into metal.
  17. Yuriy71
    Yuriy71 15 September 2021 23: 41
    -1
    Reading such articles, you come to the conclusion - it would be better if I hadn't read it - only my mood spoils and my heart hurts! Sadness and melancholy in the Russian Federation with the construction of the Fleet! Somehow, China proposed to build frigates for the Russian Federation ... It would really be a way out in the Acceleration of the fleet renewal, otherwise look at all this - and I want Stalin's times to put one half of the "leaders" against the wall, and send the other to the Kolyma cut down the forest and sew mittens !!!