Military Review

"Innovative insanity" of patrol ships of project 22160

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The situation calls for raising the issue of patrol ships again, especially since there is a risk of resuming their construction. The quote below has been repeatedly quoted in publications about corvettes and patrol ships of the Navy, but it (more precisely, its extremely severe consequences for the country's defense) is worth repeating it over and over again:


February 2014 of
Command of the Naval fleet Russia abandoned the concept of a corvette for the protection of water areas (OVR). Instead, it is planned to create patrol ships. The Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Viktor Chirkov, stated this in a blitz interview to the Central Naval Portal.

The main command does not see any prospects in the creation of ships previously designated as the "OVR Corvette". One of the main tasks of the OVR is to ensure the protection and defense of the naval forces in the areas of naval bases and in the adjacent territories. This task is now performed by coastal surveillance equipment, stationary sonar stations and coastal missile and artillery troops armed with anti-ship missiles of various ranges, as well as anti-submarine and strike Aviation.

Having abandoned the corvette, the Navy turned to the idea of ​​creating patrol ships - less armed, but with greater autonomy and versatility, capable, among other things, of going on long voyages.

This news immediately caused extreme bewilderment and harsh criticism - both from specialists and the interested public. For example, A. Timokhin's article - “Suitcases without handles. Navy buys a series of useless ships "(2018 g.):

Hearing this from the lips of the commander-in-chief of the Navy was simply monstrous. Indeed, even now, after almost five years, Russia cannot produce anti-submarine aircraft ... and the situation with FOSS is even worse ...

In such conditions, it would really be possible to ensure the protection of water areas near naval bases only and exclusively by ships with good capabilities to combat submarines. And they, at least, could be produced (it is possible now), and if you use the reserve correctly, then these will be good ships, really capable of providing at least an anti-aircraft missile defense and allowing the main forces of the fleet at the beginning of a military conflict to leave the bases without being torpedoes shot with impunity from submarines.

And then about the new "innovative patrol ships":

These ships are constructively either incapable of doing what Admiral V. Chirkov asserted, or poorly capable. They can be limitedly used against pirates, in wartime they are almost completely useless, they cannot guard naval bases ... Frankly, they can hardly do anything.

It will also be useful here to recall the then (2014) statements of the chief designer of the project and some persons presented as "experts":

26 April 2014 city
As it became known to the newspaper "Business Online", Zelenodolsk plant them. Gorky will build not 6 patrol ships (PC) of Project 22160, as previously assumed, but at least 12.

Experts note that this fact indicates a change in the consciousness of the country's leadership - it began to understand that the Navy, as a state instrument, can help in solving political tasks of a strategic scale. Experts believe that Project 22160 can become one of the important components of the revived Mediterranean squadron.

Alexey Naumov, Chief PC Designer, told Business Online something about the project and the progress of its implementation. According to him, “the terms of design and construction are very tight, even at the present time. To keep within them, we work hard. This indicates a high demand for the project. It is very great. "

According to the chief designer of the PK, the date of laying of 11 serial ships will be known by the end of the year.

Now "experts" - D. Glukhov (St. Petersburg):

In theory, 22160 is a very advanced project. According to its capabilities, it is capable of performing tasks, if I may say so, of a regional-strategic scale and, in the conditions of Mediterranean, be an extremely unpleasant (almost irresistible) threat to ships of any class.

We will not cite a whole series of enthusiastic "popular" publications in the well-known media not only because of their extremely low technical and tactical level, but also because of direct deception of readers.

In short, these ships, in the opinion of lobbyists and "popular media" - "Britain in awe" (both "old" and "new" - overseas).


As a result, however, the order for the PC project 22160 was reduced to 6 units, the fleet had already received almost all the ships of the series, but thought hard - what can you do with these "doves of peace" (for in fact, this project with due the level of efficiency is not able to decide - even anti-piracy).

At the same time, the lobbyists of this project had several "advertising topics" for these "underships" - "like universal Swiss knives", "ship for hybrid wars", "ship for special operations and special forces", "stealth", etc. ...

The "insider-lobbyist" is literally quoted (I emphasize, a person who actually has access to information, but broadcasts it on various resources, to put it mildly, "extremely selectively", and in the interests of the most dubious projects for the "development of state budgetary funds") from one of the special forums:

It's just like about Swiss army knives - sort of like nonsense (from the point of view of a narrow specialist), but almost everyone has it and is normally used on a daily basis.

A comment: a Swiss knife is a pretty good all-round "field" tool, even a "poor" one, but more or less well made. As will be shown below, the 22160 project simply does not have anything that would have been done at any effective and decent level, in fact - a "Swiss knife", but made by a dude somewhere in the garage by extremely low-skilled "specialists".

Very interestingly, this "insider lobbyist" writes about the OVR corvettes (which were "killed" by Project 22160 submarines, but an attempt to squeeze them into the 22160 hull "suddenly arose" and was presented publicly at the Naval Show this year):

Maybe that's enough already about the OVR corvettes?

We will not have them in the foreseeable future, since the concept of coastal observation in the near zone has prevailed, and in it ships of the IPC type are not really needed. All claims, questions and suggestions go to the headquarters, and not even to the main one, but to the general one.

Comment: this is another lie. Neither the main headquarters of the Navy, nor the general had anything to do with this.

This actually sabotage with mercenary motives to replace the OVR ship group with some "coastal surveillance systems" was a consequence of the actions of a well-known lobbyist in recent years who enjoyed "special relations" with some VIPs. Moreover, it should be noted that "coastal surveillance equipment" with the required efficiency not only did not exist then (2014), but does not exist even today, and what was proposed by the Navy had not only low efficiency, but also near-zero combat stability - the enemy could easily and naturally "turn off" them at any moment he wanted, both in wartime and in peacetime.

Note. At present, this lobbyist was miserably expelled from the topic of the defense industry complex, but the consequences of his actions are still hanging around the neck of not only the Navy, but also of all the Armed Forces (in terms of the absolute insecurity of the deployment of a naval strategic grouping in anti-submarine warfare ).

The border guards abandoned the 22160 border option outright - just because it is stealth.

A comment: another lie. And this time it's double. The first is that the border guards managed to "taste" all the "delights" of "innovative contours" on the project 22460 (predecessors of 22160), and the last point here was the Crimean incident with the "Defender". And the second is that the project 22160 is not any "stealth" (despite some attempts of the developer to "portray" this).

It is worth noting here the very high cost of the sub-ships of the project 22160, in fact, at the level of the MRK of the Buyan-M project (despite the much more powerful armament of the latter). And one of the reasons for this is unreasonably high prices for a number of components and systems (the optimality of the appearance and composition of which for small displacement ships raises serious questions from specialists). Further, the "insider-lobbyist" specifically about the automatic communications complex (ACS):

... in vain, is there a powerful AKC on the PC?

Found - passed - washed away (if possible, of course). And the KUG (MA, DBK) will strike. What, someone forbids doing this?

A comment: the word "washed away" about an undership with a speed of less than 22 knots looks pretty funny, if it were not for the lives of people (and the problems that were thwarted) in wartime. Here it is appropriate to recall the American LCS, where for such tasks the speed was set more than twice that of the 22160 project, and the real (and not fake, like 22160) stealth.

As for the "powerful AKS", this is a special case of one of the acute diseases of our shipbuilding, when the "specialized specialists" of the Navy allegedly "justify" for ships (this is especially acute for small ships) extremely expensive complexes with dubious equipment and appearance, but which very beneficial for "their" (specific) defense industry enterprises. At the same time, they categorically try not to allow “aliens” to this “clearing”, who often have special complexes with much greater efficiency (and confirmed in real combat conditions) and much less cost. The situation is such that a number of (publicly and officially declared, for example, the use of UAVs in service with the RF Armed Forces to solve the tasks of the Navy) positive progress in the Navy in this direction took place only thanks to the hard pressure of the higher organizations of the Ministry of Defense.

Speaking about the problem of corvettes and patrol ships of the Navy, it is worth noting insider of the above lobbyist:

If the engines went to the shipyard, what would it have tuned the corvettes more? The big question .., nothing would have happened, the hulls would have stood without working masts and other things, just like now. Yes, the finished machines were put on a PC, and this was the best solution, at least they received something for the ship crew.

A comment: another lie.

For nothing prevented (technically) the completion of the corvettes in the shortest possible time for actually working and serial (normally mass-produced) samples of radio-electronic means, with which there would be no problems with the effectiveness of the same Redut air defense system. Instead, the Navy got into a scam with a "gold" at the cost of a "tower" (IBMK "Zaslon"), which not only does not provide the specified requirements (see articles Leaky umbrella of the fleet. Technical analysis of the "Thundering" firing и “Thundering and others. Will the fleet get effective ships in the near-field? "), but also has extremely serious problems with serial production ("the hulls are without working masts").

The most interesting thing is that in the version of the "reinforced" 22160 (presented at IMDS-2021), the armament department of the Northern PKB worked at "101%" - because there was just such a composition of radio equipment that was fully provided for the tasks of the corvettes of the Navy: the radar "Positive -M "with serial (!) Antennas of radio correction (!) SAM, that is, it solves the most important problem of this SAM.

The question arises - what (and most importantly - who) prevents from putting such a really working and serial kit on the corvettes 20380 (5)?

"Innovative-modular mirage"



The promises about "magic modules" and container "Calibers" turned out to be fairy tales, which had already been discussed in detail on the pages of "Military Review" earlier - article "Patrolling modules will not save".

A simple question arises: what prevented ... just to put normal foundations, on which, if necessary, could be installed classic inclined launchers (the same missiles) or anything else (see the upper cargo deck of "Absalon"). With the same mass of structures, the missile ammunition could be 1,5-2 times more, and most importantly, these launchers could launch these missiles at a high rate and in conditions of developed excitement. However, this sound and reasonable technical solution is too “non-innovative”, and therefore the fleet is simply obliged to accept missile containers! After all, the XNUMXst century is in the yard! ... The most accurate phrase for modularity, which is being implemented today for the Russian Navy, is insanity under the sauce of innovation.

Yes, there is information that the PCs still fired the "Caliber" from their "modular launchers" the non-standard lifting launcher has been used for testing Calibers since the mid-2000s and, moreover, a video of the launch from it (from the helicopter pad of the Project 1155 BOD) was shown at IMDS-2009.

Now let's listen to the insider:

... The "Bulls" fired on the "water" and on the shore successfully, confirming their capabilities, another thing is that our governors and artisans pull and pull the cat by the tail.

At the same time, you need to understand that there are no problems to launch (in a calm sea) "Caliber" with a non-standard "folding" launcher (even from a patrolman, even from a barge), but the modular-container "Calibers" have a very serious (in fact, unsolvable) problem of forming full-fledged rocket salvos. However, according to our propaganda, we deliberately “do not knock down” each “Caliber” and hits “a whites in the eye”, and, accordingly, “everything is fine” (only there are more and more reasons to add “beautiful marquise”).

Fans of the project were looking forward to and are still waiting for the use of the AUV on the project ("XXI century", "innovations"). They did not wait, even despite the fact that the AUVs used even small PDRKs or very small RIB boats, but for the PC they somehow “didn’t grow together” (despite the presence of an “innovative crane-beam” in the stern).

I'll sprinkle "salt on the AUV on the PC".

According to the author, one of the key reasons for not using existing AUVs (including small ones) from these PCs is that the Navy really does not want to risk as a result and simply lose a very expensive AUV. And it should be noted not only the problems with positioning (which they hoped to "fix" by installing adjustable pitch propellers on the PC of the "new series") and lifting from the water at the built PCs (therefore, it is simply ridiculous to compare a powerful crane on American LCS ships and a frankly childish and weak similar design on project 22160), but also with side boats (used to support work with AUV). But more on that below.

UAVs announced on this "innovative ship of hybrid and special wars"? And even "painted"?

Forgive me, but the presence of a "kennel" (a hangar this deck box does not dare to call the tongue) for UAVs is not a condition for their effective use. Specifically for the project 22160 in view of serious problems with pitching (lack of dampers), which is acute even for ordinary Ka-27s. How often potential unmanned helicopters will start to fight on it is a separate conversation.


Searching for submarines?

Let's listen to the "insider lobbyist" again:

Unfortunately, the container BUGAS is still in the layout.

At the same time, there is a serial BUGAS, and the "innovation-container" BUGAS is disfigured into a 40-foot "monster" with which it cannot be put anywhere, except for the PC of project 22160 (even on the "modular" project 20386 instead of the "innovative container" BUGAS, according to obvious technical and layout advantages applied "classics").

"Insider lobbyist" ( link):

The war is already underway, and for a long time it has been a hybrid one. And, oddly enough, our subject is more adapted to it than other (conventionally classical) projects. One can argue about this, but the fact remains. Another thing is that, according to the old Russian naval-army tradition, they are attracted mainly to solve problems that are not the main ones for the PC.

Realizing that project 22160 turns out to be very sour and weak with literally all the tasks, its supporters and lobbyists switched to rhetoric like “we have such devices, but we will not tell you about them”, while with the air of “especially dedicated”, in the most delightful expressions are declared about project 22160 as a "sea taxi for special forces", about its supposedly "super-electronic warfare", "magic" "super-reconnaissance containers", which are little green men ", then the layman (and with them the critical and objective specialists) can only accept" sessions of positive emotions "from the" popular "media (and other resources).

However, the reality is here as well - like everything in this project.

I will not give the photo itself, RIA Novosti requires payment and permission to publish for this, the resource itself published "advertising" (sale) images of project 22160, including the main command post (GKP), with posted documentation on the capabilities of the ship's radio electronic means. The published data raise very bad questions not only about the allegedly declared "super-electronic warfare", but also simply, as possible, simply reliably observe the environment of the general detection radar, because it has a significant "blind sector" in the stern.

Briefly on the supposedly "miraculous" intelligence and "special capabilities" of the project.

The funny thing is that the statements (or notorious lobbyists, or non-specialists who heard about this "in great secret" from the "sons-in-law") were extremely harshly and soberly rejected on public resources by those who actually performed tasks on the RZK (reconnaissance ships) of the Navy ( including in the position of their commanders). And the logic here was simple, at the level of a school physics course - the project 22160 did not have any serious antennas for the high-quality performance of electronic intelligence tasks.

And here again it is worth quoting the above-mentioned "lobbyist-insider", link:

It has already been perfectly applied as an auxiliary (auxiliary) device, is applied and will be applied ... As a specialized RZK, it is certainly unacceptable. But how ersatz, as it turned out, just super, even despite the lack of a complete set of special equipment. RZK 18280 are good, of course, but there are 01 units of them at the Black Sea Fleet, they are again very expensive, plus they have their own specific drawbacks (for example, they suffer from mechanical problems). And the fleet needs to carry out tasks that arise constantly, so they send the PC to plug the holes. By the way, I will reveal a military secret. When "Bulls" followed the enemy a couple of times (like a "para-reconnaissance officer"), it caused a storm of delight in the corresponding division of the General Staff - they say, the task was completed by five points and cost very modest forces. A crazy idea was expressed - to build a series of RZK in building 22160, but, thank God, the "green" comrades were then dissuaded. And now SKAB ("Ak-Bars") will build an RZK on the basis of a multipurpose tanker.

And now a little bit of logic and common sense.

First. As propaganda tells us, our "little green men" are "the greenest men in the world," and the "corresponding unit of the General Staff" is, in general, the most super-intelligence (together with "colleagues from the SVR"). And then it suddenly turns out that the real situation with marine reconnaissance in our country is so bad that even miserable and wretched "ersatz opportunities" in this part of project 22160 in the General Staff are perceived with a "storm of delight"!

Second. The reasons for this really "bad" situation are clear from the statement - there are simply no ships to solve tasks, respectively, in this situation any "trough" for at least some execution (rather, "designation of a solution") of tasks is perceived with a "storm of delight."

The third. Extremely serious "flaws" are obvious, as in the very concept of marine reconnaissance - the basic project for this, RZK project 18280 turned out to be extremely expensive and with scanty serial production and, moreover, "suffer from mechanical problems."

Fourth. The choice for the subsequent serial construction of the RZK on the basis of the small tanker project speaks of the systemic crisis of the naval reconnaissance of the Navy and the difficulties with a qualitative analysis of the existing problems and the definition of really effective ways to solve them (but this is already a subject for a separate conversation).

Another opinion ( link):

-… cisterns of shit were poured onto this boat (22160) by those who have never been on it, have no idea what it has inside and why. No twelve-inch, the speed is low, why didn't they put a hundred missiles (you weren't asked), in general, it drank the dough of the people ... (here, yes, you all join the ranks of Navalny). The son-in-law went on the "Bykov" to the Mediterranean, and twice, by the way, they landed on the shore and took off whoever they needed from there and disembarked on the ship ... He is pleased with this ship ... he said that it was a very cunning useful boat ... For them there there was complete comfort, including sports simulators ... And specific purely special ones ... My personal opinion is that the ship under discussion is imprisoned for special operations and is also equipped for them ...

- If possible, ask your son-in-law about the helicopter. Whether and, if so, how was it used.

- I asked ... I didn't have my own, there, to the very top of the head, the cargo was everywhere, where possible, for delivery ... But ... a helicopter flew in from 11356, sat down, took the objects to Tartus, and the ship went straight to Novorossiysk, nowhere entering with a load.

"Taxi for special forces"?

And our special forces fight only in "beach conditions" - God forbid "no disturbance of the sea"?

For the descent and reception of the DShL formally on the project 22160 has a limitation of 2 (two) points, and the helicopter is actually not excitement, due to the lack of roll stabilizers).

Not to mention the real statistics of assault and sabotage groups during the Great Patriotic War, there almost most of them were carried out beyond the boundaries of the possibility of using the DSL (and with very dubious possibilities of using a project 22160 helicopter from the PC).

"The Moment of Truth"


And then the Crimean incident happened (for more details - article on "VO" "A very dangerous provocation: analysis of the actions of the destroyer" Defender "off the coast of Crimea"), where "innovative ships of the XXI century" from the Northern PKB showed themselves "in all their glory" (in quotes). And if the PSKR BOKHR of project 22460 still somehow tried to compete with the provocateur "Defender", which accelerated to 30 nodal speed, then the ship of direct tracking from the Navy - the newest PC of the project 22160 "Defender" practically did not notice. It should be noted that in the officialdom of the Ministry of Defense (Department of Information Work and Mass Communications, DIMK) there were a lot of "victorious reports" about "successful tracking" of the ships of "so-called partners", only on July 23, 2021 it turned out that these tracks were " successful "until the moment when the enemy resolved it.

Despite all the "victorious reports" (in the "specific style" of the head of the Department of Information and Mass Communications of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation), who actually went to "erase" what is clear, including the fact of the removal of the Chief of Staff of the Black Sea Fleet (with his appointment with a to another position) immediately after the Crimean incident. At the same time, DIMK itself “stamped splints” (not related to reality) about “innovative ships XXI” of project 22160, with a speed of supposedly “30 knots” (in quotes), and continued to do so.

Yes, the actual speed of the project 22160 is less than 22 knots for the tasks of the Navy, it looks frankly poor. A helicopter could help here (more precisely, the possibility of its effective use in conditions of developed waves) and a good interceptor boat (for example, in the case of the Defender, a series of pro-sabotage grenades dropped into the water from such a boat in front of the Defender's bow could be very effective. " to reason with the unreasonable "), but with this the project 22160 is also" liquid ", so tales about the non-existent speed of the project 22160 continue, for example, the photo (about 2015) shows the process of" deceiving "according to the project 22160 (the speed of allegedly" 27 nodes ") Chairman of the Military-Industrial Commission.


Immediately after the Crimean incident, the Naval Salon took place, where a version of Project 22160 with "enhanced armament" was publicly shown (for more details, see the article by A. Timokhin "The scam is restarted: a new version of the" patrol ship "22160 is shown").


As the saying goes, “Repin’s painting“ sailed ”... Actually, they came to what they were leaving (in 2014) - the OVR corvette, but already on the basis of hull 22160.

However, the main problem of the project 22160 lies precisely in this “innovative” building.

The main flaw is project 22160 as a "hydrodynamic freak"


According to the statements of its developers (at the round table on the problem of sea piracy at the Army-2017 forum), the idea of ​​creating such a ship belonged to the ex-Commander-in-Chief of the Navy V.V. Chirkov and consisted in "the minimum displacement for unlimited seaworthiness (1 tons)" to ensure low operating costs.

To “minimize displacement” with the alleged “increase in seaworthiness”, “innovative contours” of the “modified deep V” type and a number of other “creative” hydrodynamic features of the project such as a hull fracture (“redan”) in the bow were used, about the strongest slamming of which experts warned from the moment the first information on the project 22160 appeared.


As a result, it turned out that even "innovations of the XXI century" are not able to abolish physics. For real modes of movement and displacement, the "innovative contours" of project 22160 turned out to be not just "not optimal", its developers and customers "suddenly" "made a discovery" for themselves that ships with normal round bilge contours, with a similar power plant with almost twice the displacement have a close full speed (specifically - projects 22160 and 20385 (the latter - when working "half power")).

Moreover, it is very interesting to compare the "promising and innovative" project 22160 with the not very successful cruiser of our fleet "Boyarin" (1902, died at the very beginning of the Russo-Japanese War).


On sea trials, the cruiser, with a displacement of about 3 tons, the power of the machines - 200 liters. with., developed a speed of 11 knots - that is, with a displacement of almost two times greater and less power of the installation, he developed a speed significantly higher than that of the "innovative ship of the XXI century" project 160.

It should be noted that initially the Boyarin project was rated extremely low, it was imposed on our fleet through the “administrative resource” of the ruling dynasty, but the project underwent a very significant revision by Russian shipbuilding engineers (including the future academician A. N. Krylov), the result is a pretty good ship, with a relatively high speed and good seaworthiness.

It's a good question, how would Academician A. N. Krylov assess the “hydrodynamic perfection” (in quotation marks, or rather, ugliness) of Project 22160 today?

"Innovative insanity" of patrol ships of project 22160

Alexey Nikolaevich was not only an outstanding shipbuilder, but also a person capable of very harsh and sharp statements, including on the rostrum of the State Duma, and in his memoirs, for example:

Meller, the head of the Obukhov plant, comes to me:

- Admire what control does. Cast steel machine frames for "Andrey" were rejected. Read the act: “According to the terms of the order, it is required that the ultimate resistance of the material was from 45 to 48 kg / sq. mm with an elongation of 16 to 18%, and since when testing the slats, from 50 to 53 kg was obtained with an elongation of 19 to 21%, so that both numbers lie outside the prescribed limits, the frames cannot be accepted and are subject to rejection. "

- Yes, you brought me the act from the factory or from the 11th verst (psychiatric hospital)?

Returning to project 22160, we emphasize once again - without the "innovative hydrodynamic ugliness" of the developer, with "classic contours" and the same speed, the ship could have almost twice the displacement, which made it possible to:

- placement of the second helicopter;
- placement of the power plant in two compartments in accordance with the requirements of the Navy (and not in one, as on the 22160 project);
- placement of an increased stock of removable payload (for which, in exact accordance with Archimedes, the required volume of the hull submerged in water is needed), and with the possibility of installing it in the most optimal place - in the middle part of the ship (on the "original" project 22160 to compensate for the accepted at the stern of the cargo (containers), it was necessary to introduce additional special trimmed tanks with water ballast in the bow and stern parts of the ship, which "ate" the displacement);
- placement of effective interceptor boats with SPU, ensuring their use in conditions of developed waves;
- installation of a rolling damper;
- finally, the fact that the correct larger body simply shakes less.

In other words, the normal engineering approach made it possible to actually get a completely effective (multi) functional ship - the "Swiss knife", but this technical capability (on a serial installation) was "killed" by the "innovative hydrodynamic itch" of the developer (and a set of problems for the customer - starting from banal incompetence and ending with an unwillingness to objectively report and deal with the fantasies of VIPs).

Taking into account the problems with power plants in our shipbuilding, it would be appropriate to give another example of ships of the Russo-Japanese War: Japanese advice note "Chihaya" (1901): displacement - 1 tons, speed - 464 knots at a capacity of 21 liters. with. That is, one DRRA-6 unit (or, which is much more interesting - 000DRA-6000, with a shaft generator extremely useful for patrol moves) of the Kolomna plant for a ship has a displacement of about 1 tons, with normal contours, it provides a speed of about 6000 knots, and in a single-shaft version ship (plus an auxiliary-reserve retractable column with an electric motor), the production capabilities of the Kolomna plant, expressed in potential ships, are actually doubled.

Hey, General Staff (including its Main Directorate), so you need (reconnaissance) ships?

At the same time, 1,5 thousand tons of displacement provide (subject to the removal of excessive requirements) the placement of both a helicopter and a good high-speed and seaworthy boat, capable of guaranteeing speed tracking of reconnaissance objects. Of course, we are not talking about ordering the "analogue of Chihaya" now, there are much more interesting and effective options. This example is given as one of the options for a reasonable approach to shipbuilding, an example of the fact that even at the existing power plant capacities, we could have much more ships and better in quality.

As for the comparison of the speed characteristics of the PC of the project 22160 with the western "patrolmen", the supporters and lobbyists of 22160 usually select for this formally the most "convenient" competitors for them, for example, the English River. Formally - because supposedly the "advantage" of 22160 is only in terms of "tabular characteristics", but if possible, it is realistic to solve problems in conditions of developed waves (use onboard boats as a patrol ship and provide takeoff and landing of a helicopter) River, of course, significantly surpasses the PC of the project 22160.

Yes, many western patrol ships use a hull shape that is not optimal in hydrodynamics, primarily for seaworthiness, but here they still outperform 22160, and most importantly, they do not have such a strict limitation on the range and the possibility of serial production of power plants. The latter factor forces us to be very careful about inefficient power consumption, and this is not only fuel and financial efficiency, first of all it is the ability to have (with similar production capabilities of power plants) almost twice as many ships with "hydrodynamic freaks" of Project 22160.

Patrol mission and project 22160


The above-mentioned round table at the Army-2017 forum turned out to be an extremely interesting and instructive event for many participants. Formally, it began with a "report" by representatives of the Navy on the success in the implementation of anti-piracy tasks with the final "highlight of the program" of the report and presentation of Project 22160 from its chief designer.

In reality, it turned out differently, and the first "sharp dissonance" of the "popular tone" of the official reports was the speech of the representative of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. In a polite but very harsh manner the main question was posed to the Navy and the Ministry of Defense - a fundamental change in the "threat model": instead of hungry Somali pirates with rusty Chinese machine guns, the emergence of a real threat of professionally trained "sea terrorists". The threat, to which the Navy was not ready, from the word - absolutely.

Some information about how the mentioned threat evolved can be found in the material of A. Timokhin "On modern pirates and mercenaries".

The subsequent discussion was quite stormy (as a result, the speech of the chief designer of project 22160 was under "massive fire" criticism of the participants of the "round table"), with the participation of the author of the article. With me (by chance) there were materials on various special means of Western fleets, relevant against a serious terrorist threat, and what we absolutely do not have, all this was received with great interest and the organizers' request to issue a short message in the reporting materials of the round table ".

As a matter of fact, practically nothing fundamentally “new” was discovered there, even without a sharp increase in the terrorist threat. After the successful, but "on the brink" operation to free the tanker "Moscow University" in 2010, the requirements for the ship performing anti-piracy and anti-terrorist missions became obvious. These issues, among other things, were discussed by specialists in the special press.

However, all this turned out to be "forgotten" at the moment of the formation of the intent of the project 22160.

According to the literal statement of the chief designer at the round table:

Displacement (1 tons) was defined as "the minimum threshold for unrestricted seaworthiness."

A comment: as it was shown above, when using "classical contours" with the same power plant, the same speed and range could be obtained on a ship with a lot (1,5–2 times) large displacement and capabilities.

The cost of operating a patrol ship in the far zone was 2–2,5 times less than that of a corvette and 3–3,5 times less than that of a frigate.

To which the reaction of those who were discussing was: “it was according to the old dollar” (and a more economical western power plant). Moreover, the declared cost of operating a PC looks unjustifiably overestimated against the background of expensive (including in operation) corvettes and frigates - it turned out to be not cheap to operate a PC, and the point here, perhaps, is all in the same “innovative” “hydrodynamic ugliness”.

The bridge is armored (including bulletproof glass) to avoid being hit by a rifleman from 50 m.

A comment: why?! In combination with the fact that under the bridge there is a "potential good fire" in the form of a helicopter and the placement of the main power plant in one compartment (contrary to the requirements of the Navy). Obviously, the naval commanders, who "played with soldiers" when developing the concept of this ship, "allowed" opponents for themselves only in the form of beggars with rusty machine guns. The fact that they might suddenly have (and are massively used in reality) the same RPG-7, they apparently did not know. One hit from RPG-7 to the area of ​​the engine room and that's it ...

At the same time, the firing sector is the only one with any effective weapons ship - gun mount AK-176MA is limited in the stern, which is covered ... only by a couple of machine guns on a manual machine! Under these conditions, "booking a bridge not to be hit by a shooter from 50 m", to put it mildly, gives off a mockery of common sense.

The essence of all this is that even when solving "seemingly simple" anti-piracy tasks (not to mention actions against well-trained terrorists), the required level of characteristics and combat capabilities of the ship, its weapons, aircraft and boats is needed. If only because not to disrupt the anti-terrorist operation (and not to ruin people - including civilians).

The patrol ships of Project 22160 are not able to reliably solve these problems, because in the case of a strong and intelligent enemy (for example, a group of well-trained pirates (terrorists) on high-speed boats with machine guns, grenade launchers and MANPADS or a banal seizure of a civilian ship by a group of well-trained terrorists) there is a chance for the success of the PC project 22160 is practically nonexistent. His level will not be enough even for an introductory type of capture of "Moscow University" even by averagely trained pirates. Not to mention something more serious.

At least two helicopters are needed (one lands, the other covers) and at least two efficient (high-speed, seaworthy, with good carrying capacity) side boats.

From the author's article "Patrolling modules will not save":

For any foreign "patrolman", a helicopter and a boat are their main working tools. And everything on the ship is subject to their effective use, including in severe stormy conditions. Our 22160 has a helicopter and boats. But ... for beach conditions ... The widely advertised airborne assault armored boat DSL has low seaworthiness and 2 (two) points restrictions on the aft slip! This "charm" looked very clearly last year at the rehearsal of the parade in Sevastopol: on absolutely flat water, the DShL was able to go onto the slip not on the first attempt.

However, 22160 is in trouble with side boats.

Here it is necessary to understand that in order to effectively solve problems, you need not just a boat with good characteristics, you need a complex: "ship - SPU (launching device) - boat". The most common design of a storm SPU for a boat in the world provides for the presence of two locks during descent and ascent - a central one that takes the weight of the boat and a bow (release device), the purpose of which is to fix the diametrical plane of the boat close to parallel to the diametrical plane of the ship during descent and ascent.

Here's how it works for the British:


And these are the Norwegians (patrol ship KV Nordkapp):


Australians:


And an example of how it is not necessary, it is impossible to do (and how it was done on our project 22160, where the descent and ascent of the RIB on the move is obviously not provided, and on the foot it is significantly limited in excitement):


Specifically, on the 22160 project, there is a SPU formally, but in the most primitive and cheap version, which does not provide safe use on the move and with developed excitement.


Here it is worth recalling, to put it mildly, very low performance characteristics of the BL-860 boats LCMI 361462.001 supplied to the Navy (and a number of other organizations), in more detail - "Boat scam".
The fact that today, under the guise of a product adopted for service, a completely different product is supplied, moreover, in fact, without an RKD (what is, can be considered as such only with considerable imagination), this is already from the category "in the navy, and this does not happen."

In contrast to this, on the new ships of the BOKHR (large PSKR of the "Ocean" type and the new "Svetlyaks"), the correct SPUs are installed for use in sea-going high-speed boats in waves.


I emphasize once again - the boat and the SPU on board the ship are a single complex, in this case, the mass of the SPU is roughly 1,5 times the mass of the boat. A vivid example of this in the BOKHR - initially, large boats of the SK-860 type were installed on the old PSKR, but on the old davits (with significant restrictions on waves). As a result, on new ships, even such large ones as "Oceans" of project 22100, they went to accommodate a smaller boat, but with an SPU, ensuring its use in conditions of developed waves.

A large boat requires a very heavy onboard SPU, as a result of which stern slips are used on a number of Navy and SOBR ships. Taking into account the pitching of the ship, the solution is not ideal, but in many cases the only possible solution to ensure the use of a heavy boat in waves. At the same time, taking into account the significant vertical vibrations of the ship's transom, the depth of the slip and the availability of the necessary margin to the ship's structures along the height of the slip from above become very important.

Examples of such "correct" slipways on western ships:


One of the classic examples of the "correct patrol ship" is the new US Coast Guard ships of the Legend type, see A. Timokhin's article “When people think with their heads. An example of a proper ocean patrol ship ".


Project 22160 has a slip, but, like everything in this project, it is in a "decorative" form. The main thing is that the categorical desire to shove in the "modular containers" at any cost led to a scanty slip height, which was aggravated by a gross design mistake - instead of using "swing gates" him below). At the same time, as follows from the initial advertising materials for the project, it was planned to install a "classic" large seagoing boat-RIB.

However, "especially creative" (but high-ranking) naval "representatives of the customer" showed the "initiative", and instead of the "classic RIB" there appeared an "armored turret" - an assault boat (DSL).


Note: the developer of the DShL - "Trident" has nothing to do with the idea of ​​the "turtle", it is precisely "the fantasies of some VIPs from the Navy". Moreover, Trident has done a great job to make the result as successful as possible, but… taking into account the initial flaw in the original idea of ​​the DSL. The main thing is the extremely low real seaworthiness - the "vertical clearance" "clamped" by the inadequate requirements of the customer, respectively - low deadrise (and seaworthiness) and the height of the landing compartment. That is, for river conditions, this boat is very good, and can go well for export (for example, for the Amazon or the Mekong), but at sea it has extremely strict restrictions.

The problem here is significant shock loads at speed on the hull of low dead-lift, respectively, and on the crew. At the same time, the extremely clamped vertical dimension of the boat does not provide the necessary headroom for the effective operation of the damping means.

And these are not "little things", but a very serious problem.

An example from the US Navy - both the shock loads of the boat, and the statistics of the consequences for their crews.


And I emphasize once again that the problem really exists, and not only in the US Navy (whence these figures for a private (!) Episode, and already removed from the public in the US). Representatives of the "special operating bodies" have already turned to the author for materials on the subject, because "a problem has arisen," which is not surprising. Despite the publicity of the popular media, our "little green men", of course, do not have "unparalleled" titanium shock-resistant spines, exoskeletons, the body structure is approximately the same for all "homosapiens", regardless of their state ownership. Likewise, there is no "national physics", science is international by definition.

And there is a physical (technical) problem, which we intensively “sweep under the skirting board”, trying not to notice. Special forces officers are the "golden fund" of our Armed Forces, and their state of health is not just their "private matter" but one of the factors in solving special tasks of the RF Armed Forces.

This is where the problem of testing our boats arises. In fact, seaworthy tests the way they should be carried out (with the registration of shock loads and measuring the stresses in the bonds) are simply not carried out here!

Insider:

Well, this is understandable by itself. But the first experience is especially valuable, especially if it is creatively understood. I heard that there are proposals to increase the slip, make the DSL itself more with a higher roof, etc. It seems that work on this topic is underway, let's see what happens next.

Let me emphasize that everything mentioned above was known to specialists even before the scam with project 22160 began.

Accordingly, a simple question: why it was impossible not to engage in "cutting out tonsils from the other end", and immediately do (both on the part of the customer and the developer) according to the mind and normally?

Why are these delightful "rake races" necessary, and not just for generous budget funding, but for budgeting, selected, among other things, from the real acute problems and needs of the country's defense?

Even if the question is to “just feed” the Severnoye PKB with funding, what prevented him from giving him justified and necessary work for the Navy?

Why was it necessary to make the notorious "cripples and freaks"?

Has the Navy finally "reached" and realized the need for OVR corvettes?

TsMKB "Almaz" does not want to admit mistakes and make a massive and cheap "mobilization" version of the project 20385 corvette for mass serial construction?

Well, let the Severnoye PKB be the developer, but the ship should have a normal hull, without any "hydrodynamic innovative deformities" of project 22160!
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  1. Bez 310
    Bez 310 13 September 2021 11: 28
    +25
    Thank you for the article!
    Despite the abundance of letters, which for Klimov is very
    Typically, I read the article with pleasure.
    1. Cron
      Cron 13 September 2021 11: 29
      +4
      Quote: Bez 310
      Despite the abundance of letters

    2. Niko
      Niko 13 September 2021 12: 35
      0
      This is an LCS 2 project - why are we worse than the Americans?
    3. Alien From
      Alien From 13 September 2021 14: 05
      0
      I agree with you one hundred percent!
      1. Snail N9
        Snail N9 14 September 2021 08: 09
        +3
        The Kremlin simply placed themselves on "innovations". They believe that this is "saving Russia" - another "breakthrough". So they demand a "breakthrough" on "innovations" and "no analogues". They don't want to hear anything else. This is what all sorts of "bubble saws" have learned to use - who dilute their promises to create "no analogues" with the help of "breakthrough" "innovations" and even cheaply. And they are. Moreover, Something tells me that not everything there is "disinterested" ...
  2. SaLaR
    SaLaR 13 September 2021 11: 35
    +20
    In my opinion, here you really just need to shoot someone .......
    1. antivirus
      antivirus 13 September 2021 14: 23
      .
      what an ugly horror !.
      everything was lost, many times Klimov watched the "Diamond Hand" and saw western models of boats and ships.
      correctly Petsya and Ze went to bow to the Turks - only there is the correct shipbuilding.

      it is difficult to restrain the creation of an ocean-going fleet, independent, everything for the fleet. Everything for the fleet. and the Strategic Missile Forces will serve the wishes of the author K.
      deliberately leave the fleet off the coast.

      any fleet depends on bases and logistics (for the example of P-Arthur looked) early to build a raider on Florida and San Diego. Chirkov and others were right.
      First, you need a dry road to the bases and technologies for preserving pasta and buckwheat with bacon and fresh water ------ in the bases (in conditions of blockade) and then transferring the SAVED LAT AND BUCKWHEAT to the ships. is the main thing in maritime policy ... maybe for the Kremlin,

      for the warriors, of course, it is necessary to stay alive in the war. there will be no such thing ... unfortunately ...

      everything is decided - in the first place tugriks and their economy .. it was necessary to praise the Soviet system and the CPSU with the trade unions in time.

      Look for the key to understanding my glimpses of the subconscious in the statements of Potanin and MProkhorov.
      1. timokhin-aa
        13 September 2021 19: 57
        +11
        Maybe you will start to collect your thoughts somehow before commenting? And then the film turns out.
        1. antivirus
          antivirus 14 September 2021 09: 51
          -6
          the main thing is that the suit is sitting.
          I did not start raving, but the Kremlin has been investing in the Kyrgyz Republic (and the Dagger and Zircon) and the Aerospace Forces, the Strategic Missile Forces for many years.
          you --- bummer ... and all naval.
          before choosing a suit to spit on EdRo. and GDP "for the failure of the shipbuilding program" - but everyone is silent. and you and other patriots in VO, even Zyuganov and Mironov + Zhirinovsky. there are no topical issues of the country's development of the fleet on the agenda. and FSE here. at least kill yourself in despair.

          when Putin decides to build the Okiyan fleet - so at once from each iron will sing songs "goodbye rocky mountains ..." while - endure such a terrible passion

          many times I mean - THIS IS THE KREMLIN'S DECISION NOT MY RANGE.
          maybe you will live to see the number of pennants as in the USSR.
          unlikely.

          to delusions - to rave! and senile - marasmus ???

          for the 15th time, all appeals must be sent to the Kremlin

          I am not a lawyer for the Kremlin, but still this understanding of the situation warms me up. .... and you and others are looking for the failure of the construction of the Russian Navy in the wrong place

          nonsense all my thoughts ----- but where is the other vector of development of the country and the fleet?
    2. seregin-s1
      seregin-s1 13 September 2021 23: 17
      +1
      Probably Klimov!)))
  3. prior
    prior 13 September 2021 11: 35
    +13
    Innovative insanity is not only in the Navy, it is everywhere.
    Shoigu with his Siberian cities, isn't it the same?
    Does he have any problems left in the army?
    It seems that there is only one realist left in politics today, and that one remains with the brothers of Belarusians.
    1. Cron
      Cron 13 September 2021 11: 45
      0
      Quote: prior
      It seems that there is only one realist left in politics today, and that one remains with the brothers of Belarusians.

      Are you talking about Luka or what? lol
    2. Artyom Karagodin
      Artyom Karagodin 13 September 2021 13: 23
      -8
      Shoigu with his Siberian cities, isn't it the same?

      It is strange, of course, that Shoigu spoke out on this topic (unless it is a PR campaign for EdRo or they are preparing him for the presidency), but if they really engage in the development of Siberia in such a complex way, is that bad? After all, these are not just cities and factories, but also transport infrastructure and much more.
      1. Doccor18
        Doccor18 13 September 2021 15: 28
        +12
        Quote: Artyom Karagodin
        but if they really engage in the development of Siberia in such a complex way, is that bad? After all, these are not just cities and factories, but also transport infrastructure and much more.

        Yes, everything is fine.
        That's just with the industry and infrastructure of the existing problems heaped up. Wouldn't it be correct to "start practicing" with already built ones? And who will live there, even if the indigenous population prefers to leave in the direction of the gold-domed, in search of a better life ...
      2. lis-ik
        lis-ik 13 September 2021 19: 20
        +6
        Quote: Artyom Karagodin
        but if they really engage in the development of Siberia in such a complex way, is that bad? After all, these are not just cities and factories, but also transport infrastructure and much more.

        They will not do it, just the hereditary patrtnomenclature worker Shoigu is looking for another sinecure, it did not work out badly with the Ministry of Emergency Situations, it seems like it’s not bad to eat with the Ministry of Defense, and this is the groundwork for the future, at the same time PR. We Eat Russia.
      3. SVD68
        SVD68 13 September 2021 20: 01
        +6
        Quote: Artyom Karagodin
        but if they really engage in the development of Siberia in such a complex way, is that bad?

        If you personally go there, that's good. Will you go?
        1. Artyom Karagodin
          Artyom Karagodin 13 September 2021 20: 03
          +4
          If there are options for a device by profession, it will be easy.
    3. Vadim237
      Vadim237 13 September 2021 15: 28
      -9
      Shoigu with his Siberian cities, isn't it the same? These cities will be built with reference to new large-scale industries, and not just from scratch - because they wanted to.
      1. prior
        prior 13 September 2021 15: 32
        +4
        I have been hearing this verbal husk for 60 years, since the promise to build communism by 1980 ... Nothing has changed ...
        Blessed is he who believes ....
  4. Kuz
    Kuz 13 September 2021 11: 40
    +23
    "The initiative was shown" by "especially creative" (but high-ranking) naval "representatives of the customer", and instead of the "classic RIB" there was a "armored turret" ...
    The problem here is significant shock loads at speed on the hull of low dead-lift, respectively, and on the crew ...
    This is where the problem of testing our boats arises.

    That would be on the "especially creative" to experience
  5. KCA
    KCA 13 September 2021 11: 55
    .
    Strange, what shock loads on the hull of the landing boat? Why is it worse than civilian boats, to which 50 knots are not the limit, and most of them have plastic hulls, nothing, they drive and do not fall apart, it is not a problem now to find a "Kazanka" under the engine of which is 70 years old, I have the Moscow Sea nearby, not okiyan, a reservoir , but in late autumn, the wave and wind are no worse than at sea, did not get wet only because my father walked on motorboats for 65 years and knew the sea like the back of his hand
    1. JD1979
      JD1979 13 September 2021 12: 44
      +15
      In your parallel reality, there are no loads ... "Kazanka" well, yes, there is no difference between a 200 kg tub and a 6+-ton DSL ... Absolutely the same loads. Maybe you can tell the designers of dry cargo ships about the loads, otherwise they sometimes break in half))) they probably did not swim on Kazanka / Yuzhanka))
      1. KCA
        KCA 13 September 2021 13: 00
        -8
        Well, not 200, count 4 people, luggage, 60 liters of gasoline and the engine, but about 6-ton tubs I mentioned about boats, they are more than 10 tons of plastic, and the speed is under 100 km / h and do not crumble
        1. mmaxx
          mmaxx 13 September 2021 14: 01
          +2
          You still count how long these boats are at sea. A few hours a year.
          And all these Mediterranean dishes are not suitable for everything to the north.
          Take a look on the rollers on what wave the boat is going there.
          A real boat with a bottom deep V 100 km / h does not go
          1. KCA
            KCA 13 September 2021 14: 30
            -2
            So the river waves are much more destructive for the boat, the sea waves are sloping, and the river waves are not high, but like a corrugated washboard, they may have met those made of aluminum, and the boat is constantly hammering along them with the bottom, at the same time there may be 10 pieces under the bottom, constant vibration
            1. mmaxx
              mmaxx 13 September 2021 17: 02
              +2
              In response, I would advise you to find out how ships are divided into sailing areas.
              On my own, I will say that it is even surprising how a large water area sinks a boat in a couple of weeks of continuous being there.
    2. timokhin-aa
      13 September 2021 19: 58
      +7
      You do not want to compare the contours of this DShL and civil boats? Besides, "not the limit" is not the limit, but at what wavelength? For Americans, a specialist with spinal injuries is regularly written off after quick transitions on boats, but here everything is much worse.
  6. Doctor
    Doctor 13 September 2021 12: 02
    0
    Here is a normal patrol boat:



    The next level is an ocean frigate, better a destroyer. With a displacement of 6000. The rest of the intermediate types, including corvettes - into the firebox.
    1. timokhin-aa
      13 September 2021 19: 59
      +7
      The fleet does not need patrol ships, the fleet has no missions for them.
      1. Doctor
        Doctor 13 September 2021 21: 28
        -6
        The fleet does not need patrol ships, the fleet has no missions for them.

        Patrol ships are the only ships for which we will always have a task.
        Everything else can be easily reduced without compromising combat effectiveness.
        And for the benefit of the economy. good
  7. demiurg
    demiurg 13 September 2021 12: 21
    .
    Timokhin is bombed again from Project 22160.

    And here I dug up a picture of the modernization of this project. And if we discard the ZAK Broadsword, I like it.
    It is easier for the KMK to make the future OVR ship based on 22160. Places and weights are free mountains.
    Everything will be included, and BUGAS, and PLRK, and a platform for a helicopter / UAV available. And trolling diesels are low-noise, with a normal resource and fuel consumption, and there is no shortage of diesels. It remains only to screw the afterburner onto the blue electrical tape.



    So I sketched it and went to get some peanuts.
    1. Kalmar
      Kalmar 13 September 2021 12: 44
      +7
      But do not you feel that with these improvements you get 20385? This, of course, will support the established tradition of producing many similar projects for the fleet, but from a practical point of view, it raises some questions.
      1. demiurg
        demiurg 13 September 2021 12: 52
        -2
        No. The displacement is almost a thousand tons less. No redoubt, 100mm broads and megatower with radar.
        20380 is too big both in displacement and in armament for the cheap OVR corvette. And on the contrary, Karakurt needs to increase the displacement by almost half for all the Wishlist.
        1. kepmor
          kepmor 13 September 2021 15: 19
          +8
          no need to invent anything ...
          there is already a finished project for the corvette OVR - 11661 "Gepard" ...
          production technology, like the hull itself, seaworthiness, controllability has been tested and worked out for decades on the 1124 project ...
          according to these criteria, this is a misunderstanding - "the child of the saw" is not good enough ... not even with the "cheetah", but even with the "albatross" ...
          in the same 1900 tons of the standard, you can easily cram everything you need for an OVR ... and a full-fledged SJC with a keel / towed (lowered) GAS ... and a PLUR family 91 with a "Package" in the appendage ... and a normal ZRAK ... and AK-176 with MZA ... also a place for a sauna with exercise equipment will remain ...
          but, apparently, no one needs it ...
          to fight, apparently, our admirals are only going to the KSHU ... on the maps ... we have no opponents ... only "partners" around the world ...
          well, in the end, the remnants of the former OVR - 1124M will die, what then ??? ... even for the elementary support of the combat training of submarines who are being driven are going ??? ... the family of "Gorshkov / Guarding" motor resources in the cabatage to knock out ???. ..
          on the other hand, given the level and intensity of the ships' combat training, this is enough ... as well as for parades ...
    2. Cympak
      Cympak 13 September 2021 18: 42
      +1
      It also says pr.22500 from "Severny PKB". That this is another design bureau, another project - it doesn't mean anything?
      Project 22500 is many years old. For the first time, the ship model was presented at the International Exhibition of Naval Technology Euronaval 2010 in St. Petersburg. And since then, this "micro-death star" has not interested anyone.
    3. timokhin-aa
      13 September 2021 20: 03
      +11
      This is what you sucked your finger at. The tragedy of the situation is that nothing will fit in there, and besides, he has very bad hull contours.
      The sketch failed.

      PS For vigilant modders, the expression "sucked a finger" comes from the Russian well-established expression "sucked (a, -i) out of a finger", and not what you thought.
    4. Kuz
      Kuz 13 September 2021 23: 04
      +20
      Quote: demiurg
      So I sketched and went for peanuts

      Yes, we all understood what he had thrown.
  8. Nafanya from the sofa
    Nafanya from the sofa 13 September 2021 12: 23
    +5
    I wonder why in this article if you click on "Klimov"

    then pops up

    Is Klimov Timokhin?
    1. avg avg
      avg avg 13 September 2021 12: 55
      -7
      No, Klimov is the one who mined the fairway for the presidential boat. They are still looking for a mine, but they cannot find it. And he is also a mina30 on the bmpd. But there he regularly raked and now does not show his nose there. And so he is a brave capTree.
      1. timokhin-aa
        13 September 2021 20: 03
        +5
        But you can’t give an example of ogrebnaya, alas, in any way. As well as to object to Klimov on the merits.
    2. Artyom Karagodin
      Artyom Karagodin 13 September 2021 13: 24
      +7
      Klimov's account was banned, so it is published through Timokhin. It's simple.
    3. The comment was deleted.
      1. The comment was deleted.
  9. JD1979
    JD1979 13 September 2021 12: 29
    +8
    What can I say ... Soviet school FSE. Further projects such as 22160, Il-112V, Derivation-Air Defense will become an everyday reality. And in order to convince everyone that this is how it should be, critics will be registered as navalnists and traitors, and the Ministry of Truth will draw another 100500 posters and presentations, along the way teaching them to love the homeland and officials correctly))) Wild capitalism in all its glory.
    1. Cron
      Cron 13 September 2021 12: 57
      .
      Quote: JD1979
      Soviet school FSE.

      What is FSE?
      Further projects such as 22160, Il-112V, Derivation-Air Defense will become an everyday reality

      Do you live in some of your ideal world, where are solid pink ponies? Why don't you list other sensible projects? And what's so terrible about Derivation?
      And in order to convince everyone that this is how it should be, critics will be written as navalnists and traitors

      Those like you, who not for the sake of objectivity, but for the sake of throwing the ram on the fan and not there yet need to write.
      Until he is in power, his eyes are big, they see everything, they stink a lot, and then they swine more than ever. Have already passed.
      1. JD1979
        JD1979 13 September 2021 13: 55
        +14
        Quote: Cron
        What is FSE?

        FSE, this is FSE, those design bureaus that, after the collapse of the USSR, could not get a foreign order (hello UVZ and Sukhoi) lost their staff and experience and new developments are being blindly poked and depend more on the fantasy of "effective" than on real necessity and scientific justification ... And those specialists who remained are not listening. What about "superblocks" troughs with 22 nodes were not warned in advance?
        Quote: Cron
        Do you live in some of your ideal world, where are solid pink ponies? Why don't you list other sensible projects? And what's so terrible about Derivation?

        No, I live in the real world, where, unfortunately, there are fewer specialists left, and more and more sales managers are growing. Which leads to the fact that sensible projects, as a rule, are the development of the Soviet direction or modernization, and a bunch of new projects for 10-15 years do not come out of prototypes, if at all. And the further, the more. Derivation))) Epicfail "effective" when the whole main world, looking at the Russian air defense missile systems of the tunguska / carapace type, modernizes their air defense systems by adding at least some missiles to them in order to increase the range / channel. The marketing genius is trying to shove a single barrel! complex with a funny BC and with antediluvian shells))) SHEDEVRALNO. Only, the anti-aircraft gunners still don't want to take something, maybe they know something?))) This is how the mountain designers go to exhibitions with their project, and thank God.
        Quote: Cron
        Those like you, who not for the sake of objectivity, but for the sake of throwing the ram on the fan and not there yet need to write.

        And in what I am not objective?))) In what he called by his name? and wounded the tender soul of a patriot with pink glasses? Well, no matter how much you say halva, your mouth will not be sweet. And with such an approach to your aircraft, you can throw up money and earn a lot of money for your own money)))
        1. Cron
          Cron 13 September 2021 14: 18
          .
          Quote: JD1979
          FSE, this is FSE, those design bureaus that, after the collapse of the USSR, could not get a foreign order (hello UVZ and Sukhoi) lost their staff and experience and new developments are being blindly poked and depend more on the fantasy of "effective" than on real necessity and scientific justification ...

          What is this vyssh of consciousness, I hesitate to ask?
          No, I live in the real world.

          Seriously speaking, you live in your own special world.
          And the further, the more

          What further from which date? You are for objectivity.
          Derivation))) Epicfail "effective" when the whole main world, looking at the Russian air defense missile systems of the tunguska / carapace type, modernizes their air defense systems by adding at least some missiles to them in order to increase the range / channel. The marketing genius is out to shove a single barrel! complex with a funny BC and with antediluvian shells))) SHEDEVRALNO. Only, the anti-aircraft gunners still don't want to take something, maybe they know something?))) This is how the mountain designers travel with their projects to exhibitions, and thank God.

          Well, I won't even argue. You, apparently, are a great expert in this matter and in vain you sit your sofa, and how much benefit you could bring.
          And we, as it were, have other systems that are regularly improved. So I don't understand this universal whining of yours.
          And in what I am not objective?))) In what he called by his name?

          In the fact that they listed selectively what is convenient for you personally and concluded that everything, as always, was gone.
          and wounded the tender soul of a patiroth with rose-colored glasses?

          Come on, who can you hurt? Nobody cares about you, you just often overestimate yourself. Go outside and come to your senses, realizing that no one cares about you. Sit down at the wheel of the computer and again your head blows away from your super important opinion, which, of course, is very interesting to everyone.
          1. JD1979
            JD1979 13 September 2021 17: 06
            +7
            Quote: Cron
            What is this vyssh of consciousness, I hesitate to ask?

            Dear))) you are confusing your head and your butt))) I am embarrassed to clarify what you think, probably the same thing as the creators of the best unparalleled corvette, reaching an incredible 22 miles, which the cargo ship can barely catch up with, but of course you live in the world of advertising projects and believe everything that is written on the fence))
            Quote: Cron
            Well, I won't even argue. You, apparently, are a great expert in this matter and in vain you sit your sofa, and how much benefit you could bring.
            And we, as it were, have other systems that are regularly improved. So I don't understand this universal whining of yours.

            There are other systems, but do not jump off))) What about Derivation, you still say your "authoritative" opinion - is it at the level of other complexes or slag? or so you will be beating around the bush, preferring not to notice the real world))) I understand that at the same stage of bargaining, once you switched to other systems, it remains to make a last effort and accept the obvious.
            Quote: Cron
            In the fact that they listed selectively what is convenient for you personally and concluded that everything, as always, was gone.

            Can you imagine))) it is just SELECTIVE))) and it is not convenient for me, but it really is))) there is the world's best "SYSTEM" 300-500 and the best mobile complexes, and there is "selective" derivation)))
            Quote: Cron
            Come on, who can you hurt? Nobody cares about you, you just often overestimate yourself.

            Yes to everyone))) and you have a lot of problems, since you are trying to convince me that everything is fine with us, all projects are super-duper-analogs, no, and only in the west that they don't do it, then it's crazy)))
            Quote: Cron
            Go outside and come to your senses, realizing that no one cares about you. Sit down at the wheel of the computer and again your head blows away from your super important opinion, which, of course, is very interesting to everyone.

            And here it is the finale, when the words ended, the arguments were lost and the desire to show everyone remained - send instructions on what to do)))
            1. Cron
              Cron 13 September 2021 17: 54
              -9
              Dear))) you are confusing the head and the ass)))

              I ask again, what kind of vyser was it?
              but of course you live in the world of advertising projects and believe everything that is written on the fence))

              What are you talking about? Is everything OK? Well, after reading the article, I generally agreed with the author. I wrote to you about something else, are you sitting there smoky, and from there these, without the final stretching of the lyba, in the form of emoticons?
              There are other systems, but don't jump off)))

              I also jump, remarkably simple. Only recently we had the final FSE, and now there are other systems as well. It’s impossible to imagine how your brain works.
              what about Derivation, you still say your "authoritative" opinion

              Does it get to you badly? I said that I will not argue. My knowledge is extremely insufficient on this system. I asked you why she is so awful. It is clear that we have a lot of extremely dubious projects, somewhere there are cuts, somewhere there is a lack of personnel, somewhere there is underfunding, etc.
              Can you imagine))) it is just SELECTIVE))) and it is not convenient for me, but it really is))) there is the world's best "SYSTEM" 300-500 and the best mobile complexes, and there is "selective" derivation)))

              Well, yes, here in itself the conclusion suggests itself that FSE. How else?
              Yes to everyone))) and you have a lot of problems, since you are trying to convince me that everything is fine with us, all projects are super-duper-analogs, no, and only in the west that they don't do it, then it's crazy)))

              Again, they chased away some gag. But if only you like it
              And here it is the finale, when the words ended, the arguments were lost and the desire to show everyone remained - send instructions on what to do)))

              But what else should I write to a person who gives out some kind of stream of frank delirium?
              1. JD1979
                JD1979 13 September 2021 22: 24
                +7
                Quote: Cron
                I ask again, what kind of vyser was it?

                Dear, I already doubt that you can learn more than 2 words in a sentence. Pissed on your head or wherever you think. What was incomprehensible in what I wrote? It is not clear that a bunch of design bureaus who have been sitting for 20-30 years without state orders have lost people, competencies, many bases, and many have even closed down? The Soviet school and design cultures are lost. The young specialists who have come are opening "America" ​​again, stuffing bumps where it is not necessary, where having experienced specialists as mentors, they could cope with the task without mistakes and much faster. Is that clear to you? Or, too, vyser does not fit into your picture of the worldview?
                Did you yourself write under my post? Have you read it? got it? or just a desire to cuddle the keyboard?
                You boldly needed to decipher the meaning of the "Soviet school" and the fact that projects that began during the Soviet era are generally successful, as well as their modernization and successors. In case you suddenly do not understand again: the Soviet S-300s are theirs and the Russian heirs of the S-400-500s. Soviet T-72 and Russian T-90, Soviet Su-27 and its Russian versions Su-30-35-34, etc.
                And if you take a purely post-Soviet period. Once again I will give "successful examples" that have been going on for decades and it is not clear how they will end. IL-112V - design errors, plus lack of engines = disaster. Ilyushin's design bureau has created practically nothing for all the past years - the result is logical. The corvette discussed in the article and almost all marine equipment that were not started to be created in the days of the USSR. The failure in the electronic component industry led to the fact that even if there is an opportunity to build equipment in hardware, then there is nothing to put on it, and the old is not produced, and the new cannot be brought to mind.
                And it seems to me that you will continue to build yourself as a hataskay - I did not understand anything, I don’t know anything and I don’t want to know))) if I don’t understand, it means vyser)))
          2. bayard
            bayard 14 September 2021 00: 56
            +6
            Quote: Cron
            Come on, who can you hurt? Nobody cares about you

            Look at your rating, young man, and realize that the vast majority do not care about you.
            On your stupidity, rudeness and foolishness with pressure.
            You're stupid .
            And extremely ill-mannered.
            And this is your parents' oversight.
            A belt would be for you.
            Yes, it can be seen late.
      2. bayard
        bayard 14 September 2021 00: 40
        +3
        Quote: Cron
        While in power, eyes are big

        belay
        How is the Wolf?
        From an anecdote?
        About Little Red Riding Hood?
        - Wolf, why do you have such big eyes?
        - Ka-ka-yu.

        Why are you so about Power?
        She is trying .
        Patrol ships of incomprehensible orientation to build ... cities in Siberia are going ... taxes ... pensions - everything is for you.
  10. Oberstung
    Oberstung 13 September 2021 12: 33
    +2
    Great article! It's a pity in the Moscow region everyone does not know about this, because the pros are no longer there ...
    1. avg avg
      avg avg 13 September 2021 12: 56
      -2
      Well, yes. The last of the Mohicans, Klimov, was retired, now in the byada-byada fleet!
  11. tone
    tone 13 September 2021 13: 34
    +11
    How many admirals do we have in our fleet? Caperangs? Everything suits them. The fleet is rotten. There is no need to give these people ships, they will ruin them, because they do not need them. Over there in Vladivostok just now they caught the Chief of the Pacific Fleet's support service, turned the ship into a personal yacht and drove them to drink with the same friends, officers with bl ... I burned millions of fuel on the islands ...
  12. Ross xnumx
    Ross xnumx 13 September 2021 13: 38
    +10
    Thank you, Maxim! It was interesting.
    I got the impression that the greyhound of some officials is simply off scale. There can be no high potential for such a decline in military shipbuilding in a country if Chubais's associates and Gaidar's supporters have not settled there.
    I can imagine what Stalin would do if he saw such a mess ...
    ==========
    22 knots for patrol the ship ... the legless runner ...
    1. Doctor
      Doctor 13 September 2021 23: 10
      +1
      Thank you, Maxim! It was interesting.
      I got the impression that the greyhound of some officials is simply off scale. There can be no high potential for such a decline in military shipbuilding in a country if Chubais's associates and Gaidar's supporters have not settled there.
      I can imagine what Stalin would do if he saw such a mess ...

      Yes, this is the opinion of one Maxim.
      But Damantsev is delighted:

      As it should be the best in the world shipbuilding practice the patrol ship of the far sea zone, project 22160, will be equipped with the most modern and sensitive hydroacoustic systems developed by JSC Concern Okeanpribor.

      Unique patrol officers with an ultra-small displacement of 1300-1700 tons, having a much lower cost and requiring fewer resources for maintenance, can be built at an accelerated pace for the fastest saturation of all fleets of our Navy.

      The long-range capabilities of the 22160 project open up the ability to act as part of any friendly shipborne strike group, and the modular design and stealth capabilities - preserve the feasibility of the project for several more decades.


      And so on in the same spirit.
      https://topwar.ru/91585-korvety-pr-22160-malozametnye-patrulnye-korabli-s-vozmozhnostyami-esminca-vsled-za-soobrazitelnym.html

      By the way, the fact that under Stalin was built at all in any gate.
      As it turned out later ... belay
      1. bayard
        bayard 14 September 2021 01: 20
        +5
        Quote: Arzt
        By the way, the fact that under Stalin was built at all in any gate.
        As it turned out later ...

        Some cruisers and destroyers, built / laid down under Stalin, served until 1992.
        And the cruisers were just great.
        For their time - like artillery.
  13. Doccor18
    Doccor18 13 September 2021 13: 46
    +10
    Thanks to Maxim for the article. Very informative and interesting.
    Maxim, like many other naval experts, is indignant at the peculiar attempts to build ships for the Russian Navy.
    But we have capitalism now. And the capitalist needs a lot of profit. Is always. Therefore, lobbyists and pseudo-specialists will tear and throw in order to justify anything, just to snatch the contract.
    Why do we need these delightful "rake races", and not just for generous budget funding, but for budgeting ...


    And the second thing. A lot of people talk about hybrid wars. It's not in vain that they say, they go ... They beat on all fronts. And they beat quite successfully and painfully. Endless strange reforms in education (although why reform the best Soviet thing in the world?), Endless optimization of healthcare, stagnation and degradation in industries, immigration of young people, etc. etc. And it would be somewhat erroneous to consider "project 22160" separately from the whole picture of today's reality.
    Let me emphasize that everything mentioned above was known to specialists even before the scam with project 22160 began.
    Accordingly, a simple question: why it was impossible not to engage in "cutting out tonsils from the other end", and immediately do (both on the part of the customer and the developer) according to the mind and normally?

    This is just a particular, but it is an integral part of the general new order ...
  14. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 13 September 2021 14: 44
    0
    Capitalist enterprises, or rather their owners, fight for contracts using bribes, administrative resources, deception and fraud. URRAA !! We finally made it! We have achieved exactly what we were striving for! We have the most real, best and most effective capitalism. Such as in the United States. Such as all over the world, according to the best foreign models.
    I personally cannot understand at all what the author is dissatisfied with. This is against the general line!
    1. Keyser soze
      Keyser soze 13 September 2021 16: 10
      +3
      Capitalist enterprises, or rather their owners,


      But your military man is all the property of the state, right? Here capitalism and competition did not stand close to each other. Lobita, undercover games, kickbacks to share the sovereign pie.

      .... the best and most efficient capitalism. Such as in the United States.


      Just like in the USA?!? ... All your industry and country were rebuilt by the USSR and the people. And the former communists and KGB agents and their children simply plundered what they could. And they introduced neo-feudal capitalism or something like that. Check the salary of engineer Lockheed Martin and the Sukhov Design Bureau and then measure up to capitalisms ... laughing
  15. Wildcat
    Wildcat 13 September 2021 16: 26
    +2
    Everything is fine here: "... a helicopter could help (more precisely, the possibility of its effective use in conditions of developed waves) and a good interceptor boat (for example, in the case of the Defender, a series of pro-sabotage grenades dropped into the water from such a boat in front of the bow" Defender ", could very effectively" reason with the unreasonable "),"
  16. Cananecat
    Cananecat 13 September 2021 16: 34
    +5
    I am not versed in naval affairs, but the fact that our patrolman ended up in the anus of some destroyer ... it is necessary to put those guilty of adopting such underships with complete confiscation, including from relatives up to the third generation.
  17. The comment was deleted.
  18. Borisych
    Borisych 14 September 2021 01: 54
    +4
    The ship is powerful, sailing at a speed of 22 knots - this is still new, a little later it will sail 18 knots. Who ordered him, is he a bad person?
    1. Oberstung
      Oberstung 14 September 2021 08: 24
      +2
      What a disgrace, especially with the English "defender". Huge tankers can produce 30 knots. And this is a PC that should be able to catching up!
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 14 September 2021 20: 21
        -7
        Quote: Oberstung
        Huge tankers can produce 30 knots.

        Probably they fly on hydrofoils ...
        Since tankers are relatively slow-moving vessels (average max. travel speed is 15,5 knots) and do not have spatial restrictions for engine placement; large low-speed marine diesel engines can be used on them as main engines (MA).

        https://sudostroenie.info/novosti/22771.html#:~:text=Энергетическая%20судовая%20установка%20(СЭУ)%20танкера.,крупные%20низкооборотные%20судовые%20дизельные%20двигатели

        Quote: Oberstung
        And this is a PC that should be able to catch up!

        Actually, it will be aircraft or missiles from coastal anti-ship complexes to catch up.
        The main purpose of the ships of project 22160 is to preserve the resource of warships of a higher class, so as not to drive them over trifles, and to save money on patrol service. And the General Staff of the Navy took this into account when ordering ships of this project. It is strange that Cap. 3 rank Klimov in reserve does not know this, or pretends that he does not know this - apparently he has not matured enough to understand all the nuances of naval service.
        1. timokhin-aa
          14 September 2021 23: 57
          +3
          The main purpose of the ships of project 22160 is to preserve the resource of warships of a higher class, so as not to drive them over trifles, and to save money on patrol service. And the General Staff of the Navy took this into account when ordering ships of this project.


          An example of a "trifle" give, patient.
      2. shkiper83
        shkiper83 16 September 2021 03: 58
        +3
        Where have you seen such huge tankers with a speed of 30 knots? Well this is how much fuel oil will he eat a day? 15 knots for a tanker is the ultimate dream, and even then there is no sense in such speeds for a tanker. They usually run around 12-14 knots, or even less, due to various factors. The highest speed that I observed on a tanker was 18 knots, but there the current in the Sangar Strait of about 4 knots helped me.
        Even container ships do not run 30 knots, usually 19-22.
  19. Glagol1
    Glagol1 14 September 2021 20: 26
    -1
    Well patrol and anti-piracy mission 22160 somehow pulls. Of course, the hero was not born, we must also look at the cost.
    1. timokhin-aa
      15 September 2021 15: 08
      +1
      If he had pulled, they would have already sent him to the Gulf of Guinea, to remove the Nigerian thugs. Noooo ...... (((
  20. zwlad
    zwlad 14 September 2021 22: 42
    -7
    Correctly the author!
    There is no need to build anything, but to distribute the money to pensioners.
    Shipyards will be converted into pot-building plants, since the neighbors have a demand for pots.
    Qualified personnel to disperse, because nefig.
    1. Vit55
      Vit55 14 September 2021 23: 26
      +3
      What frames to overclock? They have been gone for a long time.
    2. timokhin-aa
      14 September 2021 23: 57
      +4
      Let’s not chase how I get on, the author calls for something completely different, if you don’t understand from the text - to build normal ships.
      1. zwlad
        zwlad 15 September 2021 16: 33
        -2
        I understood everything perfectly. While we will design normal ships, production will die completely.
        Let the production workers gain experience on what can be built now. Otherwise, then there will be no one to build.
        I am writing this to you as a person directly related to development and production, albeit in a different field of industry.
        1. timokhin-aa
          18 September 2021 00: 37
          +1
          The industry can build normal ships quite normally, the same corvettes, no need to lie.
  21. Vit55
    Vit55 14 September 2021 23: 25
    0
    The project is not finalized. There is no doubt, but the resource of old ships is no longer there. There are no specialists. They won't be able to do the best, but they need to be finalized.
  22. Vit55
    Vit55 14 September 2021 23: 28
    +2
    These ships are called the cabin carrier in the navy. Living conditions are very good.
  23. Santor
    Santor 15 September 2021 00: 45
    -4
    Awesome amount of bukoff from a person who did not stand next to the ship at all. The ship was created for special tasks and has been involved in them more than once. And if Klimov was not informed about this in the kitchen with details directly from the Moscow region, they probably do not trust :)))

    I honestly read everything ... This is how much time and patience you need to have to scribble all this, even dragged the master Krylov ...

    Again. The ship was created for certain tasks, these tasks have already been performed, it has on board certain equipment and special equipment. People serving on these ships have subscriptions like the Flea Watchdog ... All 6 ships will be completed. And everyone will have their own task ... Well this is how it is necessary to hate what to write something like that ... Battleships !!! Battleships need to be built ... Ugh.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 15 September 2021 11: 45
      -8
      Quote: Santor
      The ship was created for special tasks and has been involved in them more than once. And if Klimov was not informed about this in the kitchen with details directly from the Moscow region, they probably do not trust :)))

      Quite right. Moreover, before launching this project, quite a few meetings were held at the General Staff of the Navy, where they discussed in detail not only the operational purpose of this project, but also the cost of operation, taking into account the fact that the Navy's budget is clearly focused on the submarine fleet.
      Therefore, the groans of Timokhin and Klimov that it is necessary to build other ships come from the complete illiteracy of these "specialists" in matters of the military budget, and in the part that the Navy can spend on the construction of new ships.
      I am sure that not fools and grabbers serve in the General Staff of the Navy, but people who are sick of their business, and if they really know what they have to face when re-equipping the fleet, then such croaker as Klimov and Timokhin have no idea about this at all. But they learned well to pose as big "sufferers" for the navy, and apparently not disinterestedly ...
      1. timokhin-aa
        15 September 2021 15: 07
        +2
        You write as if you understand something in the question.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. timokhin-aa
      15 September 2021 21: 26
      +4
      Quote: Santor
      Awesome amount of bukoff from a person who did not stand next to the ship at all.

      You forgot - authoritative in the subject.
      You can ask the chief designer of 22160.

      Quote: Santor
      The ship was created for special tasks and has already been involved in them more than once

      The ship was not created for any "special tasks" (due to extremely low capabilities - which YOU yourself let slip about - see the quote (YOUR quote) in the text), and as for "involved" - it was on the principle of "fishlessness and cancer ... "
      And God forbid this trough with the special forces to get into any serious trouble against a prepared enemy - and the task will fail, and people will be ruined.

      Quote: Santor
      And if Klimov was not informed about this in the kitchen with details directly from the Moscow region, they probably do not trust :)))

      Yes, we already know - about what the "details of special tasks" are personally reported only to YOU ​​in the kitchen by your son-in-law

      Quote: Santor
      I honestly read everything ... This is how much time and patience you need to have to scribble all this, even dragged the master Krylov ...

      Don't read, don't torture yourself - these letters are too complicated for YOU. Look through the "Murzilka" with pictures - the very thing YOU will be

      Quote: Santor
      Again. The ship was created for certain tasks, these tasks have already been performed, it has on board certain equipment and special equipment.


      Yes, YOU yourself let slip that for him even stupidly there is not enough space!
      About the alleged "opportunities" of "intelligence" YOU, incl. already explained everything in the Abaza people who actually solved these problems (including in the category of commanders of the RZK).

      Quote: Santor
      Well this is how to hate that would write something like that ... Battleships !!!

      I just want to see the fleet to which I gave in fact my whole life to be combat-ready, and not the same as now. But what you are campaigning for is not clear.

      And another comment to YOUR this one here - Santor (Viktor) May 5, 2019 01:19 https://topwar.ru/157402-novye-korabli-zalozheny-prichem-ne-oboshlos-bez-krupnyh-sjurprizov.html#comment -id-9338052

      I was not too lazy to read 17 articles of a respected author published recently ... All of them are united by verbosity, waving a mass of figures and a tight envious hatred of everything naval ..


      Is hate for saws and sabotage hate for everything naval? Are you okay citizen?

      Having served by no means in the infantry for 27 years, I dare to guess that the author is from the former naval forces, who left the ranks of the Navy not of his own free will.

      1.apparently in the construction battalion
      2.According to the author, YOU, as usual, are in a puddle - and both times

      Not in vain on the specialized maritime forum, where, by the way, I can modestly insert only remarks into the disputes of salted capraz and cavtorangs of acting and retired, while sometimes the terminology they use confuses me, the author and his co-author have a reputation of "leshechnival" with their cries of the fact that the FSE was disbanded and there is nothing.


      This supposedly "profile marine" has long turned into a rattle, where they stupidly merge from any serious questions, for example - https://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=764&p=37#p1418971
      By the way, even now - apart from howling and wringing of hands at the article, there is not ANY serious objection there.

      As for the "lesheknavalnye", they just need the MILITARY DEFEAT of the Russian Federation, to which the fleet is strenuously drawn, incl. asset (krysyatnik) airbase.
      Timokhin's position is that WE NEED AN EFFECTIVE AND UNDERSTANDING FLEET;
      And you also don't like it for some reason

      DM> I do not know if this Timokhinskaya article was anywhere here on the forum? I am spreading this proposal here to stop the construction of RTOs.

      By the way, it is worth remembering the participant mentioned by YOU in relation to the subject (22160) -
      Deadushka Mitrich #01.03.2014 23: 47
      In general, the whole story with this proZhEkt has a frankly striking scent of the station's toilet, which has long been uncleaned by the prosecutor by the local goldsman. [censored], not that ... blah blah blah modular, cheap and so on. At the same time, ATTENTION, there is neither a technical project, nor, accordingly, the expertise of the Central Research Institute of the Ministry of Defense and the Central Research Institute of Krylov, nor the competitive procedures that precede all this action, which seem to be mandatory, it seems like recently. ... Modules are fairy tales for those who did not play enough Lego in childhood. In short, this [censored] is full of it, comrades!

      Since the fleet is desperate to get something cheap from the industry, then continue to sculpt 20380, only without the Uranos and Vignettes, leave space for them only for the future, but throw out [censored] Fourke (incidentally shooting everyone who had attitude towards him), replacing it with the good old "Positive". Leave the 630 and "Dirk" or something "cortical-like". Instead of "Zarya", something cheaper, like MGK, one hell of a few miles, the difference in range does not play pianos. Leave the car 49th, it is smoking, and [censored] with it. Here is a reduction in price, and serial production, otherwise they will again breed the zoo, and they will wonder what to feed it!

      http://www.balancer.ru/g/p3385633

      By the way, how are you with vision? Or YOU have long had pink glasses and YOU are not able to notice objective facts?
      Er> Another opus in the style, well, in the circus style, it is clear what anecdote
      the post of people occupying no small rank in Russian shipbuilding. I personally believe them more than the opuses of Pan Timokhin.

      Not bad for a guy who drowns for an unarmed fleet.

      For Eagle_rost is not a "rank in Russian shipbuilding" but a balabolka from Izvestia
      However, for this person everything has already been said -
      http://forum.vif2ne.org/nvk/forum/0/arhprint/2860345
  24. anclevalico
    anclevalico 15 September 2021 08: 06
    0
    How much of our dough was thrown away? It is necessary to shift the retirement age by another 5 years, otherwise we will not pull it.
  25. DenVB
    DenVB 15 September 2021 12: 41
    -1
    Still, the author's pathos is not entirely clear. He himself mentioned the British River-class patrol. Wikipedia writes that one of its main functions is the protection of fishing areas. And the British have eight such ships, in addition to those built for other countries. Don't we need to protect fishing areas? It seems to me very much even necessary. And we have more of these areas than Britain.

    And it is very interesting to look at the performance characteristics: a displacement of 1700 tons, the power of the power plant is 11000 hp, the speed (attention) is 20 knots (this is all for "Batch 1"). That is, with a more powerful power plant than the project 22160, the speed of the River class is even lower. Have the British, too, over the past hundred years have forgotten how to build ships and rivet "hydrodynamic freaks"?
    1. timokhin-aa
      15 September 2021 13: 02
      +2
      Wikipedia writes that one of its main functions is the protection of fishing areas. And the British have eight such ships, in addition to those built for other countries. Don't we need to protect fishing areas? It seems to me very much even necessary. And we have more of these areas than Britain.


      According to our legislation, these are the tasks of the security guard. And she, by the way, fulfills them.
      And the Britons do not have a separate guard.
      1. DenVB
        DenVB 15 September 2021 13: 29
        -1
        Then what is the conclusion? Is the ship unusable? Or is the ship potentially good, but the departmental affiliation is unsuccessful?

        And about the British "hydrodynamic ugliness" is also interesting to know your point of view.
        1. timokhin-aa
          15 September 2021 13: 42
          +1
          The ship is useless for anything.

          For the Britons, Defender gave 30 knots without straining and left the "pursuit". This ship has enough problems, but they are mechanically-electrical, not hull, that is, they are potentially removable.
          1. DenVB
            DenVB 15 September 2021 13: 46
            0
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            The ship is useless for anything.

            H'm. OK.

            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Britons Defender gave 30 knots without straining

            What does the Defender have to do with it, this is a ship two ranks higher. We are comparing 22160 and the River class.
            1. timokhin-aa
              15 September 2021 15: 05
              +1
              I have not delved into River class. It is enough that their Navy needs these ships, but we do not have the SOBR.
              1. DenVB
                DenVB 15 September 2021 15: 29
                +1
                Okay, let's hide. Although I have the impression that you are not saying something. Or they simply did not fully understand the issue.
                1. timokhin-aa
                  15 September 2021 18: 37
                  +3
                  No, I just did not delve into the nuances of the design and performance characteristics of the River-class. That's all.

                  Well, I do not say a lot, I do not want to enter the zone, I have to be silent
  26. realist
    realist 19 September 2021 07: 58
    0
    sad story . innovations for the sake of innovations. we didn’t learn hydrodynamics, we don’t build our own internal combustion engines, we don’t study foreign experience. sadly, we bury the money in the ground, that is, we throw it into the water ...