Military Review

Death march. Tank battle in the Dubno - Brody area

130
Death march. Tank battle in the Dubno - Brody area
Padded Tanks T-26 of various modifications from the 19th Panzer Division of the 22nd Mechanized Corps on the Voinitsa - Lutsk highway. June 24, 1941


The tank battle in the Dubno - Brody area became one of the largest during the Great Patriotic War. However, it did not receive the same popularity as the Battle of Kursk. The battle was attended by 5 mechanized corps of the Soviet South-Western Front and the German 1st Panzer Group.

The mechanized corps entered the battle separately, in parts, at different times, were defeated and suffered huge losses. However, the Soviet mobile formations were able to detain the enemy, who did not manage to break through to Kiev on the move, which made it possible to avoid the encirclement of the three armies of the Southwestern Front (SWF) in the Lvov direction.

This became one of the prerequisites for disrupting Hitler's blitzkrieg.

General situation


On June 22, 1941, the war began and the offensive of the German Army Group South.

The Germans delivered the main blow in the Sokal - Ustilug sector. The Nazis, overcoming the heroic resistance of border guards, garrisons of bunkers and suitable rifle formations of our armies, quickly developed an offensive.

Soviet rifle divisions marching towards the border were hit by a German aviation, artillery and ground forces. The divisions marched in dense columns, which at first made it possible to repel enemy attacks. But the flanks of the divisions were open, and the Germans had a numerical and qualitative advantage, which meant bypassing and encircling the enemy.

In addition, in the second half of the day, the Germans began to bring mobile formations into battle. Therefore, already on the first day of the war, the regiments of the 87th and 124th rifle divisions of Potapov's 5th army faced the threat of encirclement.

The German 4th Air Fleet bombed Soviet airfields. In comparison with other border districts, the air divisions located in the Ukraine showed the greatest resistance to the German Air Force.

This was due to several factors.

First, the balance of forces between the German and Soviet air forces was the best.

Secondly, the command of the Soviet air force of the district, represented by E.S.Ptukhin, paid much attention to camouflaging airfields.

Thirdly, the basing system of the air force of the Kiev military district was echeloned to great depths, and not all air force bases were attacked by the Luftwaffe on the first day of the war.

Mainly the air divisions, which were located directly at the border, were under attack. The problem was that the Germans knew all of our airfields, and most of the air units did not have alternate landing sites.

In addition, in the spring, the construction of new concrete lanes began, and a significant part of the airfields by the beginning of the war could not receive aircraft. Therefore, the destruction of Soviet aircraft on the ground was a matter of time. The Germans had the initiative and acted methodically. The first blow, the second, the third, and so on until the bitter end.

As a result, the Germans broke through the front at the junction of the 5th and 6th Soviet armies.

German tanks were moving in the direction of Radekhov (Radzekhov) and Berestechko.


Soviet intelligence at this time underestimated the enemy's forces in the Lvov-Dubna direction.

In particular, the appearance of the 11th Panzer Division was not noticed on the first day.

And in the auxiliary directions, where the enemy did not have a great superiority, there were even successes of our troops. The Soviet command at this time tried to stop and defeat the enemy with the help of counterstrikes.

In the evening of June 22, Directive No. 3 arrives, it noted that the enemy "having suffered heavy losses, achieved small successes", and ordered to launch a decisive offensive. The General Staff decided by strikes in the Lublin direction to encircle and defeat the main attack group of the enemy in the south. Then it was possible to help the Western Front by threatening the right wing of Army Group Center. Two armies and mobile units of the South-Western Front, supported by aviation, were to participate in the operation.

At the headquarters of the South-Western Front, where they assessed the situation more soberly, they realized that a large-scale encirclement operation with access to Lublin was impossible.

Therefore, they decided to inflict two counterattacks with the aim not of encirclement, but of routing the main enemy forces in this direction. On the left flank from the Radekhov - Rava-Russkaya line, three mechanized corps (15th, 4th and 8th) were supposed to attack Krasnostav, on the right, from the Verba region - Vladimir-Volynsky to Krasnostav, one corps (22nd ).

On the evening of July 22, a representative of the General Headquarters, GK Zhukov, arrived at the front headquarters. He approved the plans adopted by the front commander MP Kirponos.

In general, as noted by the historian A. Isaev ("From Dubno to Rostov". M., 2004), the decision was reasonable. The front's mobile formations are deployed in the direction of the enemy's main attack in order to exert pressure on the flanks and the tip of the enemy wedge.

The problem was that the Germans did not stand still, the initiative was in their hands, they had more experience.

Our mobile formations were just formed, "raw", with a shortage of command personnel, personnel, new tanks, anti-aircraft and anti-aircraft defense equipment, and so on.


German soldiers inspect the Soviet commander (radio) T-26 tank, knocked out on the Vladimir-Volynsky-Lutsk highway. In the background, on the side of the road, a damaged BA-10 armored car, a T-26 tank with a conical turret and another BA-10 are visible. Soviet equipment from the 19th Panzer Division of the 22nd Mechanized Corps


A German soldier-traffic controller directs the movement of a convoy on a street in the city of Lutsk, standing next to the destroyed Soviet light tanks BT-7.

The forces of the parties


From the side of the Wehrmacht, Kleist's 1st Panzer Group was at the forefront of the attack: 3rd, 14th and 48th motorized corps (5 tank and 4 motorized divisions), 29th Army Corps), infantry divisions of the 6th and 17th XNUMXst field armies.

According to various estimates, the strike group included from more than 720 to 800 tanks. At the same time, the tanks were partially commanders (without serious weapons) and light T-1 and T-2 with 20-mm cannons and machine guns.

The Southwestern Front (formerly the Kiev Special Military District) was the most powerful in the western direction.

Of the 20 Soviet mechanized corps, 8 were located here. 5 mechanized corps took part in the battle: the 8th, 9th, 15th, 19th, 22nd and 8th Panzer divisions of the 4th corps, rifle corps of the 5th 6st and XNUMXth armies.

The mechanized corps were armed with, according to various sources, from 3,4 to 3,6 thousand tanks. However, a significant part of the combat vehicles were light tanks BT and T-26. Also, the hulls had more than 400 heavy KV and medium T-34s, the appearance of which came as an unpleasant surprise for the Germans. These Soviet tanks were superior to the German models. However, the Germans were able to fend off the threat with artillery, including 88mm anti-aircraft guns.

It is worth noting that, for the most part, Soviet tankers, in comparison with German ones, had no experience of such battles. In connection with the process of reform and modernization, the creation of mechanized corps, training was minimal. There was no high-quality standard radio communication of tank groups and individual vehicles, there was no or there was a shortage of armor-piercing shells.

The motor resources of a significant part of the equipment were running out, it simply broke down on the march. The command made a number of mistakes, which worsened the situation of the Soviet mobile formations.


Destroyed Soviet tank T-26 and a dead Red Army soldier on the street in Dubno

Death march


It was especially difficult for the mechanized corps of the 5th Army, which had a large shortage of vehicles.

The maneuver of mobile units was difficult even in peacetime, and during the war the situation deteriorated sharply. These are columns of tanks, armored vehicles, cars, tractors and motorcycles stretching for tens of kilometers. The scorching sun, traffic jams and accidents inevitable in the hustle and bustle. Broken and lagged transport. Carts, horses, livestock and masses of refugees.

The columns were an easy target for enemy aircraft. It was difficult to knock out tanks from the air. But the Germans smashed the rear with might and main. Trucks with ammunition and fuel were on fire. Also, raids by the Luftwaffe reduced the speed of movement. Command "Air!", And the car drivers scatter. Then you need to disassemble the rubble from the wreckage and burning cars. The service life of many tanks was running out, they had to be left at the bases along the way. Fuel shortages quickly arose.

The strongest mechanized corps of the front, the 4th corps of Andrey Vlasov (at that time, he was one of the most promising commanders of the Red Army), was stationed in the Lvov area.

The corps consisted of the 8th, 32nd Panzer and 81st Motorized Divisions. The corps numbered 28 thousand people and was the best equipped with equipment - 979 tanks (including more than 400 T-34 and KV-1), 175 armored vehicles, more than 180 guns and mortars.

The corps was part of the 6th Army of Ivan Muzychenko, and from June 22 they began to use it in parts in defensive battles. The commander used the mobile unit to strengthen the defense of the army, although there was nothing catastrophic in its zone. On June 24, Fotchenkov's 8th Panzer Division was allocated to take part in a counterattack against the enemy. She was sent to interact with the 15th mechanized corps near Radekhov.

The 8th Mechanized Corps of General Dmitry Ryabyshev (12th, 34th Panzer and 7th Motorized Divisions) from the Stryi, Drohobych region was moved through Lvov to the Brody area in order to strike the 15th corps together with the 46th corps. motorized corps of the enemy (11th and 16th Panzer Divisions), which was advancing on Dubno.

Ryabyshev's corps (a Don Cossack who fought in the First World War and the Civil War) numbered more than 30 thousand people, 932 tanks and 172 armored cars. The almost 500-kilometer march was difficult, along congested roads, under bombing. Therefore, it was completed only in the afternoon of June 25th. On the way, the corps lost almost half of the equipment due to breakdowns and lack of fuel.

In general, if the front remained in place, this equipment could be returned to service. But in the conditions of retreat, it was lost.

As noted in the work of A. Drabkin "I fought in the T-34":

“For T-34 tanks in 1941, a 500-kilometer march would have been almost fatal. In June 1941, the 8th mechanized corps under the command of DI Ryabyshev, after such a march from the places of permanent deployment to the Dubno region, lost almost half of its equipment on the way due to breakdowns.


Soviet light tank BT-5, knocked out and burned down in Dubno.


Soviet medium tank T-34 with an L-11 cannon, produced in October 1940, knocked out by the road near the southeastern entrance to Dubno. The vehicle belonged to the 12th Panzer Division of the 8th Mechanized Corps. According to the autograph on the starboard side, the tank was hit by soldiers of the 111th Infantry Division and the Hermann Goering Regiment.

First fights


The 15th Mechanized Corps of Ignatius Carpezo (10th, 37th Panzer and 212nd Motorized Divisions) was located in the area of ​​Brody.

It consisted of over 33 thousand people, more than 730 tanks (including about 130 T-34 and KV) and 150 armored vehicles. On June 23, the corps, without the 212nd division left for the defense of Brod, was moved to Radekhov.

On June 22, an advance detachment of the 10th Panzer Division (one tank and one motorized rifle battalion) occupied the settlement. In the morning, the troops of the German 11th Panzer Division approached. A fight ensued, which lasted until the middle of the day. For the first time, German tankers felt the impact of 76-mm guns from T-34 tanks.

But the forces were unequal, ammunition began to run out. Ours retreated, the Germans occupied Radzekhs.

Developing an offensive on Berestechko, the Germans ran into the combined T-34 detachment.

A non-commissioned officer of the 11th Panzer Division, later a historiographer of the formation, Gustav Schrodek recalled:

“Our hearts contract: fear, horror, but maybe also joy, because finally we can show ourselves. Did they see us? Do they take us for their own? Our forces are equal ... And as soon as they approach a distance of about 100 meters from our cannons, the "dance" begins. We are sending them the first shell. Rumm-mm! The first hit to the tower. Second shot and another hit. The lead tank, which I got into, calmly continues its movement. It's the same with my platoon mates. But where is the superiority of our tanks over the Russian tanks, which has been proclaimed for so long ?! We were always told that it is enough just to "spit" from our guns! "

At 15 o'clock, Radekhov was attacked by the 20th tank and 10th motorized rifle regiments of the 10th tank division. All other parts of the corps were still on the march. And the 37th division, which was already going out to the battlefield, generally turned in the other direction, towards Adam, due to rumors that enemy tanks had appeared there.

The mess was caused by the corps corps Carpezo himself. It is clear that part of the 10th division, and without artillery, could not repulse Radekhov.

The Germans, on the other hand, had several dozen 34-105-mm howitzers against our T-150s, hitting from closed positions, guns from 50-mm anti-tank guns to 88-mm anti-aircraft guns.

The 22nd mechanized corps of Semyon Kondrusev (19th and 41st tank, 215 motorized divisions) had 24 men, 650-700 tanks, 50-80 armored vehicles. Most of the vehicles were light BTs and T-26s. The corps was in the stage of formation, it was "raw". Due to the lack of command personnel and equipment, some units were not ready. The corps made a march more than 200 km north of the city of Rivne.

On June 24, the 19th and 215th divisions launched an offensive north of the Vladimir-Volynsky-Lutsk highway. Semenchenko's 19th Panzer Division, which included only light tanks (according to various sources, about 160-225 vehicles), lost a significant part of the tanks during the march due to bomb attacks and breakdowns. Then she ran into the anti-tank defenses of the German 14th Panzer Division in the area of ​​the villages of Voinitsa and Alexandria. The division lost most of its vehicles. Corps commander Kondrusev died, Semenchenko was wounded.

The remnants of the Soviet troops withdrew to Rovno.

The 41st Panzer Division of the 22nd Corps did not participate in this battle. She received the task to go to the Kovel area. On the way, she came under fire, got stuck in a swampy area, then retreated to the border of the river. Stokhod.

The 9th mechanized corps of Konstantin Rokossovsky (20th and 35th tank, 131st motorized divisions) included about 300 light tanks T-26, BT and T-37/38, 70 armored vehicles. At the beginning of the war, the corps was stationed in the area of ​​Novograd-Volynsky, 200-250 km from the border.

On June 24-25, the 131st motorized division took up defensive positions in the Lutsk region. The division was reinforced with a motorcycle regiment of the 22nd Mechanized Corps and two artillery divisions of the 19th Panzer Division of the same corps.

On the 26th, Rokossovsky's troops fought heavy battles in the Lutsk area with units of the German 13th Panzer Division. The Germans took Lutsk and tried to break through to Rovno.

The 19th mechanized corps of Nikolai Feklenko (from the 40th and 43rd tank and 213rd motorized divisions) numbered 22 thousand people (about 2/3 of the state), about 450 tanks and 26 armored vehicles. The corps headquarters was located in Berdichev.

On the evening of June 22, the corps began to move and was aimed at the Dubna direction. Feklenko's corps, together with Rokossovsky's 9th corps, was supposed to defeat the enemy in the Mlynov, Dubno area. The units went to the Rivne region under the blows of German aviation.

On the morning of June 25, the advanced units of the 40th division engaged the 11th German Panzer Division.


German soldiers examine a 34 Soviet T-1940 medium tank with an L-11 cannon from the 12th Panzer Division, abandoned in the Dubno area.


German soldiers inspect a Soviet T-34-76 tank captured on the streets of Dubno.

To be continued ...
Author:
Photos used:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/, http://waralbum.ru/
130 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 10 September 2021 05: 30
    +13
    The mistakes of the command of the Red Army, which threw a lot of our tanks into battle, without taking into account the capabilities of the enemy, are obvious.
    But it was necessary to go through a series of battles and defeats in order to gain experience from our own mistakes ... alas, a lot of our fighters and commanders died in them ... all this cost the Red Army dearly and the country as a whole.
    The author prudently did not show more brutal photos with our dead tankers.
    1. Gardamir
      Gardamir 10 September 2021 06: 45
      .
      The author prudently did not show more brutal photos with our dead tankers.
      the author showed only broken Soviet equipment. Obviously not a single Hitlerite tank was damaged. Is it an article for the glory of Germany?
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 10 September 2021 07: 18
        +4
        "not a single Hitoer tank was damaged" the Germans did not photograph their wrecked tanks. It is not profitable for them. And our tanks, to support the pants, is very much even recommended .. After all, the author used German photographs
        1. Ashes of Claes
          Ashes of Claes 10 September 2021 11: 02
          +6
          Quote: vladcub
          the Germans did not photograph their wrecked tanks. It is not profitable for them. And our tanks, to support the pants, are highly recommended ..

          "To support the pants" these guys from the propaganda company were filming (RK on the headlight hood - Propagandakompanie). This chief corporal on the BMW P75 is from the Panzer-Propagandakompanie 691 (duck on the tank) of the von Kleist group (letter K on the wing)
      2. Glory1974
        Glory1974 10 September 2021 09: 13
        -6
        the author showed only broken Soviet equipment.

        I agree with you. One-sided coverage of events.
        1. Ashes of Claes
          Ashes of Claes 10 September 2021 09: 57
          +10
          Quote: glory1974
          I agree with you. One-sided coverage of events.

          what does "one-sided" mean? Do you have photographs of German vehicles knocked out near Dubno? Would you like to share?
          1. Glory1974
            Glory1974 14 September 2021 08: 23
            +1
            what does "one-sided" mean? Do you have photographs of German vehicles knocked out near Dubno?

            This means that I have never heard of such a battle. And here I read "The valiant Wehrmacht smashes the Bolshevik hordes." Where is the balance of forces and means, disposition, tasks to be solved and losses?
            This is one-sided.
      3. Ashes of Claes
        Ashes of Claes 10 September 2021 09: 29
        +6
        Quote: Gardamir
        the author showed only broken Soviet equipment. Obviously not a single Hitlerite tank was damaged.

        Perhaps Samsonov would be happy to place a gallery with the smoking remains of the PzKpfw, but where can one get them? This photo of the burnt-out "troika" is passed off as Dubno, but #this is not accurate. Perhaps Kalinovka.
      4. avia12005
        avia12005 10 September 2021 09: 59
        +6
        At this time, ours had nothing else to do, how to photograph.
        1. Konnick
          Konnick 10 September 2021 10: 22
          0
          At this time, ours had nothing else to do, how to photograph

          At first, the correspondents rushed to the forward units, but quickly realized the danger and also quickly retreated, but many film crews died.
          Since then, practically all the photos of the "military operations" as well as the newsreels have been staged and all of this was filmed in the rear units. It was necessary to inspire the fighters, which is why most of the photos are propagandistic.
          1. Ashes of Claes
            Ashes of Claes 10 September 2021 10: 43
            +7
            Quote: Konnick
            At first, the correspondents rushed to the front lines

            Like the German propaganda companies - 17 of the 19 available in the propaganda department of the OKW went along with Barbarossa.
            Quote: Konnick
            It was necessary to inspire the fighters, which is why most of the photos are propagandistic.

            I will note, however, that the Germans have a very large array of amateur photos devoted to this period, without any propaganda coloring.
            1. Konnick
              Konnick 10 September 2021 10: 47
              +8
              amateur photos, without any propaganda coloring.

              Alas, ours did not have so many cameras, and it was forbidden to have them.
              1. Ashes of Claes
                Ashes of Claes 10 September 2021 11: 17
                +7
                Quote: Konnick
                Alas, ours did not have so many cameras, and it was forbidden to have them.

                quite right. Simonov's Bear Weinstein comes to mind right away, right?
                Its real prototype is Mikhail Bernshtein, photo correspondent of Kr. Zvezda. He died in the Barvenkovsky cauldron in May 42.


                by the way, this shot is from the school filmstrip "The Living and the Dead":


                1. Konnick
                  Konnick 10 September 2021 12: 38
                  +4
                  Its real prototype is Mikhail Bernshtein, photo correspondent of Kr. Zvezda. He died in the Barvenkovsky cauldron in May 42.

                  The events with Mishka Weinstein in the Living and the Dead Simonov described from the battles of the Romanov division on the Buinichsky field, but there he was with Pavel Troshkin. Troshkin died in Ukraine at the hands of Bandera in 1944. And Simonov bequeathed his ashes to be scattered on the Buinichi field.
            2. Zakirov Damir
              Zakirov Damir 11 September 2021 10: 09
              0
              The Germans had portable 8mm cameras, and therefore they filmed everything and everyone. In this regard, there are an order of magnitude more German newsreels.
              1. Ashes of Claes
                Ashes of Claes 11 September 2021 15: 40
                0
                Quote: Damir Zakirov
                The Germans had portable 8mm cameras

                Professional frontline operators worked with the 35mm "arriflex".
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. SERGE ANT
      SERGE ANT 10 September 2021 08: 22
      +12
      command errors
      Order of the NKO of the USSR No. 325 of October 16, 1942 "On the combat use of tank and mechanized units and formations."
      4. Tanks do not fulfill their main task of destroying enemy infantry, but are distracted by the battle with enemy tanks and artillery. The established practice of opposing our enemy’s tank attacks and getting involved in tank battles is wrong and harmful.
      The reasons for the defeat were not in the small number of tanks and their poor performance, but in their inept use and inability to competently organize hostilities. The reasons were mainly organizational. The Soviet command, organizing a counterattack, knew very well that only one 15mk was concentrated in the place of its application, and the rest of the mechanized corps needed time to complete the march, in which there would be inevitable losses of equipment, which sometimes actually amounted to 72% of the total available personnel.
      1. SERGE ANT
        SERGE ANT 10 September 2021 08: 23
        +11
        The history of the 8th mechanized corps is indicative. Before he reached the site of the counterstrike in the Berestechko area, by June 26 he had reeled over 400 kilometers. As a result, the 12th Panzer Division of 300 tanks led to the battlefield only 75 tanks. The 131st mechanized division of the 9th mechanized corps to the place of concentration in Bronniki, after 120 kilometers of the march led 35 tanks out of 83 released on the march and 123 available. The losses of tanks were not from oncoming battles with German tanks, but mainly from anti-tank artillery, fire from defending tanks, aviation and technical malfunctions on the march and during the battle.
        1. Konnick
          Konnick 10 September 2021 11: 18
          +5
          Poppel, in his memoirs, described this throwing well.
          1. Kwas
            Kwas 12 September 2021 12: 11
            +1
            They removed them from the language, just going to quote Poppel.
            Reflecting on the reasons for these rushes - haste in decision-making, tight marches, an attack on an underexplored enemy, poor communications, contradictory orders. Remember the order to retreat 8MK after a successful offensive? "The 37th SK is defending itself on the Nov.Pochaev-Podkamen-Zlochev front. 8MK to retreat behind the 37SK line and strengthen its battle formation with its own firepower. Start the exit immediately."
      2. Proxima
        Proxima 10 September 2021 09: 08
        +4
        If Samsonov writes "to be continued," then with almost one hundred percent certainty we can say that there will be no continuation. crying
    4. Bar1
      Bar1 10 September 2021 09: 16
      -8
      there have already been articles here many times about the battle of Dubna, and this battle was analyzed in the same way. This article does not say anything new. It is said that
      - little experience of our commanders / army commanders
      -the Germans have a lot of experience in warfare
      - incomplete staff of our units, formations and associations
      -sudden strike, the defeat of aviation, the Germans knew about our airfields
      -no communication, all counterblows are scattered

      what else? perhaps that's enough.
      It is necessary to analyze each of these reasons.

      in 37goda and the army was MASS repressions, it is enough to look at the example of Rokossovsky, the most outstanding commander of the Red Army, what to say about the rest. In the army after 37g. people were appointed commanders without command training, incompetent, but trustworthy and loyal to the Bolshevik government.

      In the event of the outbreak of hostilities, each commander from the division commander MUST OPEN a Red packet, which says the direction of the formation's deployment, and this is where the most interesting thing. All historians talk about DEADLY marches for our armored vehicles, which had a low service life, but at the same time it was in the Red packages that the order forced the commanders to make such marches and destroy equipment. Isn't that so? it was in the Red Packets that the order was contained, which was not possible to carry out, and this order was drawn up by the General Staff, which was headed by Zhukov and of course the People's Commissar of Defense Tymoshenko.

      Radio communication. Historians say that our radio communication was much worse than the German one and that's it, they don't write anything else. How is it that the leadership of the USSR and the Kyrgyz Republic. not bothered with such an important circumstance? Our factories were equipped with imported equipment, because the economy of the Republic of Ingushetia / USSR could not create means of production, i.e. all supplies of equipment were mainly from America, but the equipment for creating radio stations was apparently not supplied at all, and the USSR could not create such production itself or no attention was paid to this and the whole communication was just wired.
      An army without communication is an army without leadership i.e. this is not a blow with a fist, but a blow with a splayed hand, so clearly.
      During the existence of the Bolshevik government and the Red Army, more than 20 years, the political and military leadership of the country SHOULD have been concerned about such an important shortcoming in the army, but it was not, and this is strange, to say the least.
      Let's draw an analogy with our time. Now in our country, the Russian Federation does not have its own COMPUTER PRODUCTION, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to conduct hostilities without its own base of radio electronics.

      https://www.rosbalt.ru/russia/2021/03/04/1890616.html

      that fraud with theft and sawing in the army of the Russian Federation was discovered, when, instead of creating its own production, there were massive purchases in China with minor additional equipment in the Russian Federation.
      It turns out exactly the same situation as before WW2. war.
      The Russian Federation DOES NOT HAVE its own computer and radio-electronic production.
      The army of the Russian Federation is equipped with computers and radio stations for the development of the enemy, which is GUARANTEED in case of war will fail and then the situation will be exactly the same as before the war, the army will be left without communication and control.
      Can such parallels be drawn? Yes, you can. So what kind of people are leading our country, both at that time and at this time?
      1. Ashes of Claes
        Ashes of Claes 10 September 2021 09: 51
        +12
        Quote: Bar1
        This article does not say anything new.

        and what new can be expected in this thread? Well, is that some kind of nonsense from "Ukrainian historians" (TM) that Heinrich von Kleist was actually a big Sich archer Gritsko Kleistuk, or something like that?
      2. ccsr
        ccsr 10 September 2021 17: 41
        +3
        Quote: Bar1
        in 37goda and the army were MASS repressions, just look at the example of Rokossovsky, the most outstanding commander of the Red Army, what to say about the rest.

        In fact, Rokossovsky was convicted of military misconduct, and not under a political article, so you shouldn't count him as a victim of repression.
        Quote: Bar1
        but at the same time, it was in the Red Packets that the order forced the army commanders to make such marches and destroy the equipment. Is not it?.

        Of course not, because the packages usually contain an extract from the order to move from the PPD to the concentration area in accordance with the cover plan for the district (army, corps, division). The commander and chief of staff always know their secret area and therefore can act without opening the package, because they know their task by heart in the part concerning. The main purpose of the package is that when receiving a signal and in the absence of the commander and NSh, any deputy. the commander or the operational duty officer could open it and set the task for the advancement of the entire unit to the secret area. And to be guided by the extract until the arrival in the concentration area and receiving further instructions from higher superiors, if the commander and the NSh for some reason cannot command the unit - a business trip, vacation, treatment, death, accident, etc. Well, of course, an extract from the order, signed by the senior chief and certified by the seal, is a legal document for raising any unit on a combat alert, which is important if an investigation begins later on why the unit did not complete its combat mission, for example, in terms of advancing to the state border to repel an enemy that broke through.
        As for the ill-conceived marches to which you refer, they came later from the higher command, and not because they were carried out in accordance with the extract from the order, stored in the "red package".
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 10 September 2021 18: 55
          -3
          Quote: ccsr
          In fact, Rokossovsky was convicted of military misconduct, and not under a political article, so you shouldn't count him as a victim of repression.


          you generally have to object first to this at least to look at the Internet.

          In August 1937, Rokossovsky went to Leningrad, where he was arrested on charges of having connections with Polish and Japanese intelligence, falling victim to false testimonies.


          https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Рокоссовский,_Константин_Константинович



          Quote: ccsr
          The commander and chief of staff always know their secret area and therefore can act without opening the package, because they know their task by heart in the part concerning.



          yes, the situation when the low-frequency man moved into place according to his own understanding, and then opening the package, it turned out that the order points to the other place, this is an excuse to pull out the revolver and shoot himself.
          Of course not, the package is opened ALWAYS after the start of the war.
          If the commander or the NF know in advance about the upcoming murderous march, which will lead to the death of equipment without a military clash and at the same time were silent, then this only aggravates the situation and not only Timoshenko and Zhukov, who drew up the order, but also the commanders of the formations, who are silently with this agreed.
          Then there is some kind of absurd situation - mutual guarantee - everyone knows and is silent.
          However, I am observing such a situation even now, when the Russian army does not have its own computer and radioelectronic support, and they also know everything and keep silent.
          In such a situation, the army is DOED IN ADVANCE.
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 10 September 2021 20: 32
            0
            Quote: Bar1
            you generally have to object first to this at least to look at the Internet.

            You better study the biography of the outstanding commander, then you may find out that he was initially charged for the death of horses during divisional exercises, and then they tried to sew a "policy" on him, but nothing came of it. But the initial one was an official trial, after which he came under the tribunal.
            Quote: Bar1
            yes, the situation when the low-frequency man moved into place according to his own understanding, and then opening the package, it turned out that the order points to the other place, this is an excuse to pull out the revolver and shoot himself.

            You are clearly not aware that the NSh personally develops and coordinates all plans regarding combat readiness and the withdrawal of units, and therefore constantly works with documents, making corrections and changes that come from higher headquarters. So he even sleepily knows where his part should be through H + 1,2,3 ... etc. Have you heard anything about his work in the "dark room"?
            Quote: Bar1
            Of course not, the package is opened ALWAYS after the start of the war.

            In fact, the packet is opened after receiving a signal, and whether the war has begun or not, or we ourselves are going to start a war, does not matter.
            Upon the fact of an attack on a unit, the commander has the right to open the package without receiving a signal - this is his responsibility.
            Quote: Bar1
            If the commander or LF know in advance about the upcoming murderous march

            How can they know in advance what their superiors will order them? The packets do not store information about subsequent actions, at least from the point of view of maintaining the secrecy regime, in order to avoid information leaks.
            Quote: Bar1
            but also the commanders of the formations, who silently agreed with this.

            The unit commanders "disagree" - they follow orders, even if they defy logical explanation, it is strange that you do not understand this.
            Quote: Bar1
            Then there is some kind of absurd situation - mutual guarantee - everyone knows and is silent.

            This is distorted - there is no such thing in the commander-subordinate relationship.
            Quote: Bar1
            However, I am observing such a situation even now, when the Russian army does not have its own computer and radioelectronic support, and they also know everything and keep silent.

            Are you sure that this is exactly the case in strategic weapons systems?
            Quote: Bar1
            In such a situation, the army is DOED IN ADVANCE.

            Your conclusion is too speculative, and hardly corresponds to the truth regarding RA.
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 10 September 2021 22: 27
              -6
              Quote: ccsr
              You better study the biography of an outstanding commander


              You probably have your own sources, I don't know anything about them.

              Quote: ccsr

              How can they know in advance what their superiors will order them?


              I'm talking about the red packet, about the FIRST order after the start of the war, which is contained in the packet.
              You said above that commanding a compound without a package knows everything where to advance and where to deploy, and this order is exactly in the package and that this order is ignored? The High Command and the General Staff are responsible for the order in the package. And I think that the commanders could not disobey the order, so it is Moscow that is responsible for these marches in the position.


              Quote: ccsr
              The unit commanders "disagree" - they follow orders, even if they defy logical explanation, it is strange that you do not understand this.


              you say that the field commanders knew what was in the package, that the order would not be carried out and were silent at the same time? This is exactly the case when they were previously chosen as scapegoats, because they will be appointed guilty for not fulfilling the order, so you have to object to an impossible order. Or to be silent and act according to the "situation." This is how the war began with defeats.
              Have you read Schweik? "Cook goulash and advance on Sokal" - such an order was given by a general who was out of his mind and imagine that in the army this order was not fulfilled.

              Quote: ccsr
              Are you sure that this is exactly the case in strategic weapons systems?


              I am an electronic engineer by profession and I know very well what components our radio stations consist of, but there is nothing of ours about computers.

              Quote: ccsr
              Your conclusion is too speculative, and hardly corresponds to the truth regarding RA.


              you yourself then look at what computers are used in the army of the Russian Federation, there is nothing of its own. Moreover, there is nothing of its own, so it has already lasted for DECADES ALL the reign of Putin.
              1. ccsr
                ccsr 11 September 2021 16: 30
                0
                Quote: Bar1
                I'm talking about the red packet, about the FIRST order after the start of the war, which is contained in the packet.

                The package can be opened even before the start of the war. An extract from the order, stored in the package, as a rule only defines the route of advance to the secret area, and does not describe the plan of the first operations. As I understand it, you yourself did not hold the packages in your hands and you have no idea what is stored in them. This is how the commander of the radio post describes the opening of the packet on June 22 - this algorithm was in other parts as well:



                Quote: Bar1
                , so it is Moscow that is responsible for these marches in the position.

                This, in principle, cannot be - Moscow is responsible for strategic planning, and for operational - the district.
                Quote: Bar1
                Have you read Schweik?

                Was this what your military knowledge was limited to?
                Quote: Bar1
                I am an electronic engineer by profession and I know very well what components our radio stations consist of

                Generally speaking, it is forbidden to use foreign components in strategic weapons. Radio stations are just an element of control systems, but the wired and satellite systems of the strategic link are all built on a domestic basis.


                Quote: Bar1
                you yourself then look at what computers are used in the army of the Russian Federation, there is nothing of their own.

                You are mistaken - even in Soviet times, domestic computers were used in weapons systems, you are simply not in the subject that even now we are working on domestic equipment.
                1. Bar1
                  Bar1 11 September 2021 17: 51
                  -6
                  Quote: ccsr
                  As I understand it, you yourself did not hold the packages in your hands and you have no idea what is stored in them.


                  I do not need to turn this package in my hands, because now you can see the contents of the packages themselves.



                  see from 53.30min.

                  Quote: ccsr
                  This, in principle, cannot be - Moscow is responsible for strategic planning, and for operational - the district.


                  drawing up "red" packages for the corps is the task of the general staff.

                  Quote: ccsr
                  Generally speaking, it is forbidden to use foreign components in strategic weapons. Radio stations are just an element of control systems, but the wired and satellite systems of the strategic link are all built on a domestic basis.


                  you fell from the moon. I gave you a link to how the general robbed the army of the Russian Federation, and you all yours. If there was a radio component base, then China would not have turned.

                  Take a new Typhoon for the Airborne Forces, and so there is an American Alice box, Dutch bridges, a fireplace engine, a razdatka is not ours. You seem to have been here for a long time, you don't know anything.


                  Quote: ccsr

                  You are mistaken - even in Soviet times, domestic computers were used in weapons systems, you are simply not in the subject that even now we are working on domestic equipment.


                  yes, you are like an ostrich that hides its head in the sand, you stick your head out and look at the truth. Maybe the ancient Elbruses -1 micron and do more, but the new computers are Intel and AMD.
                  1. ccsr
                    ccsr 11 September 2021 18: 08
                    0
                    Quote: Bar1
                    I do not need to turn this package in my hands, because now you can see the contents of the packages themselves.

                    This episode from the film just shows that in the package there was only an indication of where to advance, and there were no operational plans in it.

                    Quote: Bar1
                    drawing up "red" packages for the corps is the task of the general staff.

                    Nonsense - for the corps of district subordination, this is done by the NSh of the district, for the corps of army subordination - by the command of the army, and only for the corps of central subordination, packages are made in the People's Commissariat of Defense.

                    Quote: Bar1
                    you fell from the moon. I gave you a link to how the general robbed the army of the Russian Federation, and you

                    Both under the tsar and under the general secretaries, thieving generals periodically came across, so the current ones are no exception - the main thing is how they are punished for this.
                    Quote: Bar1
                    Take a new Typhoon for the airborne forces

                    This is generally a trifle, do not sprinkle ashes on your head over trifles.
                    Quote: Bar1
                    You seem to have been here for a long time, you don't know anything.

                    You know too much from women gossip, as I see ...

                    Quote: Bar1
                    Maybe the ancient Elbrus -1mkm and do more, but the new computers are Intel and AMD.

                    I do not think that they are used in our Strategic Missile Forces in control systems. And in the seventies we knew how to rivet our own processors for military needs in Zelenograd, and possibly even earlier. I think that now everything is not as bad as you think.
                    1. Bar1
                      Bar1 11 September 2021 19: 31
                      -5
                      Quote: ccsr
                      That episode from the film just shows that the package contained only an indication of where to advance, and there were no operational plans in it.


                      How do you know what was in that package?



                      Quote: ccsr
                      Nonsense - for the corps of district subordination, this is done by the NSh of the district, for the corps of army subordination - by the command of the army, and only for the corps of central subordination, packages are made in the People's Commissariat of Defense.


                      I will remind you why I raised this question here. The question is: who gave the order to commit murderous marches for the mechanized corps?
                      The mechanized corps is an operational-tactical unit under the command of the district / front and, less often, the army.
                      Planning i.e. The deployment and operation of all structures of the district / front is handled by the General Staff. the first order in the RED package is an order from the general staff, and not from the district headquarters. The participation of the district headquarters in the formation of the order in the Red package could only be with the full approval of the general staff, and most likely, on the contrary, the general staff directed and planned the actions of the district / front, and the headquarters district / front FOLLOWED the order of the General Staff, and not vice versa.

                      Quote: ccsr
                      Both under the tsar and under the general secretaries, thieving generals periodically came across, so the current ones are no exception - the main thing is how they are punished for this.


                      we are here at a sort of historical forum, so give examples when the generals of the Republic of Ingushetia or the USSR robbed the army for BILLIONS of rubles, otherwise your whole conversation is a miserable chatter.
                      But this is not the main thing, but the main thing is that this thief-general was instructed to create his OWN RADIO STATION, at his radio-electronic base, and he bought parts in China. This is also an indicator of what radio stations the Russian army uses.

                      Quote: ccsr
                      You know too much from women gossip, as I see ...


                      you speak well of the contents of the topo.

                      Quote: ccsr
                      This is generally a trifle, do not sprinkle ashes on your head over trifles.

                      this is not a trifle - this is an indicator. And as for computers and an electronic base, then you are stubbornly stubborn without knowledge of the matter, here I will not even argue with you, because I know what equipment the RI army uses and even on what equipment it prints maps - on Hewlett Packard printers and plotters made in the USA and China.
                      And the system on these Linux computers is also a US development.


                      Quote: ccsr
                      I do not think that they are used in our Strategic Missile Forces in control systems. And in the seventies we knew how to rivet our own processors for military needs in Zelenograd, and possibly even earlier. I think that now everything is not as bad as you think.


                      these are your dreams, I advise you to wake up.
                      1. ccsr
                        ccsr 11 September 2021 20: 06
                        -1
                        Quote: Bar1
                        How do you know what was in that package?

                        Do you at least understand what the person who opened it is saying in this episode?
                        Quote: Bar1
                        Question: who gave the order to commit murderous marches for the mechanized corps?

                        Either the commander of the district, or on his behalf one of his deputies.
                        Quote: Bar1
                        The mechanized corps is an operational-tactical unit under the command of the district / front and, less often, the army.

                        This is in peacetime, and when the ZAPOVO cover plan is introduced, the mechanized corps are subordinate to the commander of the area, in this case 3A:
                        2. To fulfill the assigned tasks for the defense of the state borders of the district, the covering troops are distributed among the covering areas as follows:
                        1) the troops of the covering area number 1 - Grodno include:
                        a) management of the 3rd army;
                        b) control of the 4th line of the corps with hull parts;
                        c) 56, 27, 85 and 24th divisions;
                        d) management of the 11th mech. hulls with hull parts;
                        e) 29th, and upon receipt of materiel and 33rd tank divisions;
                        f) 204th Motorized Division;
                        g) 6th anti-tank artillery brigade;
                        h) 11th mixed air division;
                        i) 124 ran RGC;
                        j) parts of the Grodno UR;
                        k) 86th border detachment.
                        The head of the covering forces is the commander of the 3rd Army. Shtarm - Grodno.


                        Quote: Bar1
                        and he bought parts in China.

                        The Americans also buy parts there and in Taiwan, and do not cry about this. It all depends on the level of their application.
                        Quote: Bar1
                        and even on what equipment does Hewlett Packard print maps on printers and plotters made in the USA and China.

                        What a horror - they are fatty in our ballistic missiles. You probably won't be able to survive it.
                        Quote: Bar1

                        these are your dreams, I advise you to wake up.

                        What do you yourself have to do with the issue under discussion?
                      2. Bar1
                        Bar1 11 September 2021 23: 10
                        -4
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Do you at least understand what the person who opened it is saying in this episode?


                        Do you think that the whole order that was voiced by Rokossovsky? No.

                        Quote: ccsr
                        Either the commander of the district, or on his behalf one of his deputies.


                        I have already said that the red package for the mechanized corps is the responsibility of the general staff.

                        Quote: ccsr
                        The Americans also buy parts there and in Taiwan, and do not cry about this. It all depends on the level of their application.


                        you are not an uncle of this world.
                        If the Americans buy Chinese microcircuits, then civil ones, and the military is ALL home production. In our country, the opposite is true, even military Elbruses are produced in Taiwan. And besides, we need, in addition to processors, a sea of ​​other components that we do not produce, the same thermal matrices for tank thermal imagers. and helicopter ones, to the same radio stations that were stolen.



                        Quote: ccsr
                        What a horror - they are fatty in our ballistic missiles. You probably won't be able to survive it.


                        Well, now it is clear who you are. I thought the local half-know, it turns out that you are the one who deliberately misleads, and then sculpts a hunchback.

                        Quote: ccsr
                        obey the area commander, in this case 3A:


                        the district commander during the war is of course strong, only the district commander is stronger.
                      3. ccsr
                        ccsr 12 September 2021 10: 32
                        -2
                        Quote: Bar1
                        Do you think that the whole order that was voiced by Rokossovsky? No.

                        This is a combat control document, and by definition it is made concise and unambiguous so that anyone who opens the package will instantly understand the task at hand and give appropriate orders.

                        Quote: Bar1
                        I have already said that the red package for the mechanized corps is the responsibility of the general staff.

                        I have already told you that you are mistaken - the General Staff is not strong enough to prepare packages for all mechanized corps, and they are not aware of all the features of different districts in order to know better how and where to whom to advance, and even take into account temporary standards.
                        Quote: Bar1
                        you are not an uncle of this world.
                        If Americans buy Chinese microcircuits, they are civilian, and the military is ALL made at home.

                        You are a big liar "aunt", because all military microcircuits in Russia are produced only here - only for certain types of military products it is ALLOWED to use foreign components, and even then, as a rule, for tactical weapons.
                        Quote: Bar1
                        , the same thermal matrices for tank and helicopter thermal imagers, for the same ones at the radio stations that were stolen.

                        You are not even aware that this is not a STRATEGIC weapon, but have already begun to determine who and what manufactures abroad, and what we have. What is there to talk to you about if you don’t understand elementary things?
                        Quote: Bar1
                        Well, now it is clear who you are. I thought the local half-know, it turns out that you are the one who deliberately misleads, and then sculpts a hunchback.

                        Nothing is clear to you, because you are an ordinary verbiage who has wild ideas about our military-industrial complex. By the way, so that you are aware, some microcircuits in the Soviet era were made not at industrial enterprises of the USSR, but in some structures of the Ministry of Defense - you don't even know that. And now they are making ...
                        Quote: Bar1
                        the district commander during the war is of course strong, only the district commander is stronger.

                        Open the cover plan - it was approved by the People's Commissar of Defense, which means that the district commander is obliged to carry it out. You are still that "specialist" in military affairs, as I see ...
                      4. Bar1
                        Bar1 12 September 2021 14: 10
                        -5
                        Quote: ccsr

                        ccsr (ccsr)
                        Today


                        you are a liar and a chatterbox, the conversation with you is over.
                    2. Firelake
                      Firelake 16 September 2021 09: 50
                      0
                      thermal matrices for thermal imagers tank and helicopter

                      France buys them from us. Wake up
                    3. Bar1
                      Bar1 16 September 2021 13: 43
                      0
                      link .......
          2. Kwas
            Kwas 12 September 2021 13: 30
            +3
            Quote: Bar1
            Maybe the ancient Elbrus -1mkm and do more, but the new computers are Intel and AMD.

            American military - Intel. But who told you that any missile or side should be equipped with the latest percentages? On the contrary, they are needed in very few places. And where they are needed, you can still use import (with protection, of course). And Elbrus is not at all as ancient as you think. But the problem is different - in the general destruction of industry. In particular, in electronic we had EVERYTHING, even if not all the best, but now there are, alas, islets. And the gaps are very difficult to fill, especially under capitalism. For example, there were 2 factories of spare parts (measuring instruments), Krasnodar does not work, but Lviv - you understand.
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 12 September 2021 14: 22
              -5
              Quote: Kwas
              Who told you that any missile or board should be equipped with the latest percent?


              it is easy to understand, if what are the advanced processors for, and they are needed first of all for processing graphic data, graphic files are the heaviest. Well, modern ground-to-ground missiles or aeroballistic missiles always have a map in memory on which they build their course, i.e. according to the incoming data in the form of a three-dimensional image from the ground, they are checked against the map in memory to the very goal. Well, for such purposes, we need the MOST productive processors.
              And besides, and that ground command posts should not be equipped with the most advanced computers, because they have to process data from the entire theater of operations and this is also three-dimensional images, and even with rapidly changing input data, so here you need to set the fastest processes ...
              And we do not have such, if there were, they would appear on sale, as civilian versions.
              So the Russian army itself is the most backward of modern armies.
              1. Kwas
                Kwas 13 September 2021 22: 02
                +2
                Quote: Bar1
                it's easy to understand

                What is easy for an amateur to understand, only makes a specialist grin. "Modern processors" have been redundant for almost all real applications for 20 years already. And advertising campaigns, brainwashed brainwaves and crooked software are to blame for the fact that we are constantly being pushed in "novye".
              2. Bar1
                Bar1 14 September 2021 07: 34
                -3
                Quote: Kwas
                "Modern processors" have been redundant for almost all real applications for 20 years already.


                if you don’t want to understand how the gaming graphics work, look at what loads the processor with video cameras is experiencing, video filming is a reality, and with a resolution of 1900 + 1080 the processor works with a load of 100%.
              3. Kwas
                Kwas 16 September 2021 08: 58
                +2
                Firstly, it is Windows, an extremely irrational system. Secondly, these are toys designed not for real tasks, but for the greatest load of iron.
  • Living7111972
    Living7111972 11 September 2021 13: 01
    -1
    To learn the language of a potential enemy, the rulers will merge us, or rather, they merged long ago
  • Kwas
    Kwas 12 September 2021 12: 22
    0
    Let's finish it. There was also a factor of betrayal, the tails of that very "conspiracy of generals." Egorov, Tukhachevsky, Blucher and others. Not by chance, probably, Pavlov and others were shot? We can hardly believe it now, but having an afterthought of what happened to our country is quite. And returning to the present day, when the very phrase "treason to the Motherland" is being blurred, let's estimate how many traitors are sitting in our leading offices? But unlike that time, they are not fired, because everyone has a bourgeois morality, "the main thing is personal!" And it should be!
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 10 September 2021 05: 32
    +2
    the battle in the Dubno - Brody area became one of the largest during the Great Patriotic War. However, it did not receive the same popularity as the Battle of Kursk.

    Dear author, well, you can't write about the fierce battles of the Great Patriotic War like that! Would you like some more ratings ...
  • Catfish
    Catfish 10 September 2021 05: 36
    +9
    German soldiers inspect the Soviet commander (radio) T-26 tank, knocked out on the Vladimir-Volynsky-Lutsk highway.


    It does not seem that these are Germans, on the left it is like our Red Army soldier and not a prisoner, because the tunic is belted with a belt, the soldier on the right is also in our riding breeches and boots.
    This remark is not a reproach to the author, just "the devil is in the details."
    1. Konnick
      Konnick 10 September 2021 06: 05
      +7
      It does not seem that these are Germans, on the left it is like our Red Army soldier and not a prisoner, because the tunic is belted with a belt, the soldier on the right is also in our riding breeches and boots.


      You are right, they are not Germans. The Germans forced our prisoners of war to get corpses from tanks for burial. This process was shot by a German photographer.
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 10 September 2021 06: 12
        +6
        Here is another photo of this tank, color. It looks like the column came under flank fire. This tank burned down.
    2. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 10 September 2021 06: 41
      -4
      So the Red Army man on the left also has something on his belt (not enough for a tablet).
      But the photo can also be staged. The Nazis often resorted to this technique - they forced prisoners to pose against the background of destroyed buildings and equipment. For those selected, ammunition and even awards were returned for a while. Then they took it back.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 10 September 2021 06: 46
        +2
        Quite possibly, I also read about it, they even filmed a staged newsreel of how the Russians "amicably" surrender.
        1. The leader of the Redskins
          The leader of the Redskins 10 September 2021 07: 00
          -7
          The French have a film, I don’t remember the name, so from the very beginning they filmed such a "chronicle" - they gathered dark-skinned soldiers, drove them into a barn, handed out rifles without cartridges and ordered them to run out into the street on command.
          And there, in addition to a movie camera, there was also a machine gun ...
          All according to the methods of Goebbels - Negroes are, in general, not people.
        2. Maximillian von Adelheid
          Maximillian von Adelheid 10 September 2021 07: 01
          +5
          And 3.800.000 prisoners of the Red Army in 1941 is not "amicable"?
          1. zenion
            zenion 11 September 2021 22: 23
            0
            Maximillian von Adelheid. There could have been more, but that was only when there was still Ukraine. Cousin Mikhail was the commander of a tank battalion. He fought against the Japanese and Finns. In general, a group of tankers was created with new tanks and, of course, fuel and ammunition, and sent to the Baltic States. Them on the train in good conditions. We arrived at the place, but no one was on the platform, no one met. They were surprised and began to look for where the barracks were, and it was already beginning to get dark. They came, the barracks are empty. By midnight, they began to fire at the barracks from attics and rooftops, and they only had pistols. I managed to go to the station, but it’s empty. They began to go to the forest and after a while went to the military unit, which was there for the exercises. There they were surprised at what was what, what they had told and contacted Moscow via the radio station. From there they were ordered to withdraw to the station and go to the disposal of the headquarters of their division. Already on the way we learned that the war had begun. They were interrogated for several days by different ranks, how it happened that they were sent in one direction, tanks in the other, fuel and ammunition in the third place. To which they of course replied that they could not manage the trains, let them ask those who sent them that way. In this way, those drafted into the army were sent unarmed to the Germans.
            1. Kwas
              Kwas 12 September 2021 12: 30
              +1
              An explanation of "betrayal" suggests itself. Here my grandmother's brother was in the Baltic States, the deputy chief of the auto regiment, so then he led the headquarters of the scattered MK to the Luga line. He said that it is not worse when, instead of commands, they shout "save yourself, who can."
          2. Roma 1977
            Roma 1977 13 September 2021 08: 54
            0
            No. Not amicably. Amicably - it's like in Denmark or Holland. And in the USSR, half a year of fierce battles, as a result of which the Red Army was not only not defeated, but also launched a large-scale counteroffensive. Amicably.
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 10 September 2021 07: 41
        +3
        I agree: it doesn't look like a tablet. For a tablet it is narrow, for a flag it is short - more like a thermos.
        Maybe a glass jar, though?
        I heard from the old people. Oh they: "Hollywood was terribly winged" (c) said that it was so omno.
        You have to be some kind of smart guy to come up with such a "miracle"
        1. The leader of the Redskins
          The leader of the Redskins 10 September 2021 07: 49
          -1
          I think maybe a case with something. Tool?
          In the Soviet army, I know, sometimes they made cases for carrying shoe brushes. And they were worn by the designated people. But then something like "not two, not one and a half" ... request
  • parusnik
    parusnik 10 September 2021 06: 37
    +9
    The chief of staff of the Southwestern Front, General Purkaev, proposed withdrawing the troops and creating a continuous line of defense along the old border, and then counterattacking this proposal was rejected, and Purkaev was removed from office.
    1. Konnick
      Konnick 10 September 2021 07: 24
      +16
      The chief of staff of the Southwestern Front, General Purkaev, proposed withdrawing the troops and creating a continuous line of defense along the old border, and then counterattacking this proposal was rejected, and Purkaev was removed from office.

      The mechanized corps of Ponedelin's 12th Army, as a result of such a withdrawal, was left without tanks, not having entered into a single clash with the Germans. Calling these maneuvers the largest tank battle has become fashionable now. Breakdowns and lack of fuel, this is what our tankers mainly fought with. Due to the fact that the mechanized corps were formed, and our experts like to flaunt the knowledge of the number of tanks, but they talk about the number of cars, vehicles were not delivered to the hulls on time, there were no mobile workshops, refuellers, one tank in a tank division should have had 5 vehicles ... The tank troops of the Red Army were only a little over ten years old, practically no experience. All these marches along the arrows on the maps ruined the equipment. In addition, the hull warehouses were abandoned. It would be better if the mechanized corps remained in place, letting through the tank wedges and cutting off the enemy's supply lines, acting within the range of their daily marches, would force Kleist's tanks to stop in front of the second echelon of our troops. Then our mechanized corps would have an advantage in supply and repair, fighting next to their warehouses and repair bases. And our commanders seemed to be playing modern computer games, tanks do not run out of fuel and shells and they do not break.
      1. Kwas
        Kwas 12 September 2021 12: 37
        +1
        Some of our commanders thought in the paradigm of a "deep offensive operation", here in some ways Rezun is right. And the other part, which they did not manage to shoot, is in the "defeat plan" paradigm.
    2. strannik1985
      strannik1985 10 September 2021 07: 52
      0
      Chief of staff

      Remained to agree with the Germans to be allowed to withdraw.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 10 September 2021 07: 46
    +13
    "Heavy tanks hit field and anti-tank artillery, medium tanks finish off anti-tank guns and machine guns. All this is done along the way."

    This is from the report of Pavlov, head of the Main Armored Directorate of the Red Army. Speaking in December 1940 at a meeting of the senior leadership of the Red Army.
    This is the level the main tanker had, in his opinion, all the guns with machine guns line up in a line in the line of sight of heavy and medium tanks and wait. The defeats at the beginning of the war were caused not by the fact that the Germans fought very well, but by the fact that our generals fought very badly and if it were not for the heroism of ordinary soldiers and officers, then we would not have seen Victory.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 10 September 2021 08: 19
    +4
    "at the headquarters of the South-Western Front, where they assessed the situation more soberly" Madame Frolova at the headquarters of the South-Western Front were
    1. Ashes of Claes
      Ashes of Claes 10 September 2021 11: 26
      +6
      Quote: vladcub
      Madame Frolova at the headquarters of the South-Western Front had some cheaters

      oh .... And the godmother of "Hitler's palaces in Ukraine" didn't she dump the VO somewhere on Zen ??
      1. tasha
        tasha 10 September 2021 12: 00
        +2
        Judging by expressions like
        However, it did not receive such popularity, ... of the Corps, ... The divisions marched in dense columns, which at first made it possible to repel enemy attacks. But the flanks of the divisions were open, and
        - did not dump. You read the article and you can see the ears. Alexander Samsonov seems to be sitting on a different topic lol
      2. Daniil Konovalenko
        Daniil Konovalenko 10 September 2021 12: 37
        +1
        There is probably a turnover, some on Zen, others from Zen to VO
        1. Ashes of Claes
          Ashes of Claes 10 September 2021 12: 48
          +1
          Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
          There is probably a turnover, some on Zen, others from Zen to VO

          Rotation) sorry for Freudianism)
          1. Essex62
            Essex62 10 September 2021 20: 33
            +1
            Very much like madam. Highly.
      3. vladcub
        vladcub 11 September 2021 14: 32
        0
        Even though I am on the site, I feel sorry for Zen. Frolova tells them this that ... Munchausen will strangle himself
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 10 September 2021 08: 22
    +10
    According to various estimates, the German strike group included more than 720 to 800 tanks. At the same time, the tanks were partially commanders (without serious weapons) and light T-1 and T-2 with 20-mm cannons and machine guns.

    The mechanized corps were armed with, according to various sources, from 3,4 to 3,6 thousand tanks. However, a significant part of the combat vehicles were light tanks BT and T-26. Also, the hulls had more 400 heavy KV and medium T-34

    on all the eastern front, the Germans on June 22 had 3332 tanks (B. Müller-Hillebrand. Handbook "Land Army of Germany. 1933-1945").

    In the battle in the Dubno - Brody area, the Germans had only T 3, T4 tanks of serious tanks and there were only a little more than 200 of them, and 115 command tanks were generally unarmed.

    They were opposed only by the new T34 and KV tanks. 700 pieces (400 for Vlasov and 130 for Karpezo - so in the article, but Ryabyshev also had 170 new ones).

    In addition, the BT 7 and T 26 had a 45 mm gun and perfectly hit all German tanks.

    Ours had a great superiority in forces, but did not manage to use it.

    apparently, the blow itself was a mistake: in defense, these forces would have inflicted more damage on the Germans and would have delayed them for a longer time.

    70% of tank losses are not combat losses: due to breakdowns on marches, in swamps, lack of fuel.

    The rest of the Germans were knocked out of the defense during our attacks and bombed from the air.
    The direction of the attacks was unsuccessfully chosen: the 8th mechanized corps advanced through 4 swampy rivers, where many tanks were stuck tightly.

    And death marches, of course:
    As noted in the work of A. Drabkin "I fought in the T-34":

    “For T-34 tanks in 1941, a 500-kilometer march would have been almost fatal. In June 1941, the 8th mechanized corps under the command of DI Ryabyshev, after such a march from the places of permanent deployment to the Dubno region, lost almost half of its equipment on the way due to breakdowns.

    At the same time, they made a march, first 90 km in one direction, then, turning 180 degrees in the opposite direction, then again turned 180 degrees in the other direction, went ...

    our losses of 2648 tanks (the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945. In 12 volumes. - M .: Voenizdat, 2015.), the Germans lost 85 tanks irrevocably and 200 in workshops for long-term repairs (Isaev A. V. Dubno 1941. The greatest tank the battle of the Second World War. - M .: Yauza, 2009).
    A terrible relationship, bitter lessons ... The main reason, I think, is the incorrect assessment of the situation and the inept leadership of the operation ...
    1. strannik1985
      strannik1985 10 September 2021 13: 55
      0
      In the battle in the Dubno-Brody area, the Germans from serious tanks

      Structures are fighting, divisions of the 3st TGr, in addition to the regular divisional artillery, had a serious set of reinforcement means, for example, the 105rd AK (mot) assault gun division, a division of 150-mm cannons and 2-mm howitzers, 210 divisions of 150-mm mortars, two batteries and a division of 210-mm cannons, limited motorized divisions of 240-mm mortars and XNUMX-mm howitzers (these mobile units did not accompany them), an AIR division, a chemical mortar regiment, an anti-tank division.
      In addition, BT 7 and T-26

      40 mm high hardness armor Kts = 2600 45-mm armor-piercing projectile at an angle of 30 degrees pierced from a distance of 150 meters.
  • Ulrih
    Ulrih 10 September 2021 09: 53
    +3
    "Our mobile units were just formed," raw ", with a lack of command personnel, personnel, new tanks, anti-tank and air defense equipment, etc. "
    "Also, the hulls had more than 400 heavy KV and medium T-34s, the appearance of which was an unpleasant surprise for the Germans."
    These paragraphs do not contradict one another at all :)
    1. faiver
      faiver 10 September 2021 16: 37
      0
      by the way do not contradict hi
  • avia12005
    avia12005 10 September 2021 11: 48
    +2
    Quote: Konnick
    At this time, ours had nothing else to do, how to photograph

    At first, the correspondents rushed to the forward units, but quickly realized the danger and also quickly retreated, but many film crews died.
    Since then, practically all the photos of the "military operations" as well as the newsreels have been staged and all of this was filmed in the rear units. It was necessary to inspire the fighters, which is why most of the photos are propagandistic.

    On June 22-24, with all their desire, very few photographers could get to the site of the battles.
  • 75 Sergey
    75 Sergey 10 September 2021 13: 52
    +1
    There was no communication, there were no powerful radio stations!
  • Detnix
    Detnix 10 September 2021 13: 59
    +8

    Why this next set of stamps and myths? The superiority of the spacecraft was absolute, our "old" tanks are fully comparable to the main German tank of the 41st T-3, but it is not important that the Germans did not envisage any tank battles, the PTA was against the tanks, and the tanks developed success.
    The whole problem is in the quality of management as a strategic one. and at the operational tactical level, there will be few resources here.)
    1. strannik1985
      strannik1985 10 September 2021 16: 37
      -1
      The superiority of the spacecraft was absolute

      Your table says otherwise.
    2. strannik1985
      strannik1985 10 September 2021 17: 52
      0

      91,5 settlement unit - these are all parts of the districts (Kiev and Odessa), by June 22 they are located in the PPD regiments and battalions of all the territory of the counties. By the way, in the article from which you took this table, this nuance is disassembled in detail wink
      1. Detnix
        Detnix 13 September 2021 09: 09
        0
        So this is the control problem !! wink
        1. strannik1985
          strannik1985 13 September 2021 09: 21
          -1
          This problem is called preemptive deployment and has nothing to do with management.
  • Ashes of Claes
    Ashes of Claes 10 September 2021 15: 15
    +1
    why are the towers of all cars turned back?
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 10 September 2021 15: 30
      +1
      Maybe they were retreating?
    2. faiver
      faiver 10 September 2021 16: 41
      0
      could and with a specialist deploy
  • Operator
    Operator 10 September 2021 15: 49
    +6
    There was not a single one near Dubno and Lutsk tank battles - all attacks of the Soviet mechanized corps were repulsed by the anti-tank and anti-aircraft artillery of the German troops deployed in the direction of the Soviet counterattacks according to the German aerial reconnaissance.
    At the same time, the tank formations of the Wehrmacht came out from under the Soviet counterstrike and continued their raids on the rear of the Red Army covering army. The Soviet command did not conduct large-scale aerial reconnaissance and could not identify the maneuver of 1 enemy tank group.
    In the future, up to the Battle of Kursk, the Soviet command each time stepped on the same rake (refusal to conduct large-scale aerial reconnaissance) and, as a result, lost Ukraine, the Baltic States, the Northeast, the North Caucasus and the Volga steppes, along with the river and railway lines of Baku - the central regions country.
    PS 100% of the loss of tanks in the western military districts of the USSR were associated with the collapse of the front in June-July 1941 and the impossibility, therefore, to repair the failed tanks due to breakdowns and damage by the enemy. 100% of the losses of Soviet aviation were associated with the professional unsuitability of the pilots of the Red Army Air Force due to the scanty pre-war raid of the crews and the almost complete absence of combat training (they saved the resource of aircraft engines and the supply of aviation fuel).
    So, with an order of magnitude larger number of fighter aircraft of the Baltic Fleet (not affected by enemy bomb attacks and based on hard-surface airfields) over the Luftwaffe fighter aircraft operating in the northwestern direction in June-August 1941, the pre-war composition of Soviet aviation was defeated in air battles and had to be replaced by aviation from the internal military districts of the USSR.
    1. Kwas
      Kwas 12 September 2021 13: 00
      0
      Quote: Operator
      There was not a single tank battle near Dubno and Lutsk - all the attacks of the Soviet mechanized corps were repulsed by the anti-tank and anti-aircraft artillery of the German troops deployed in the direction of the Soviet counterattacks, according to German air reconnaissance.

      And what about the tank battle between 8MK and 11TD near Berestechko on June 26, the attack of Poppel's group 16 TD west of Dubno on June 28?
      1. Operator
        Operator 12 September 2021 13: 35
        0
        These are nothing more than isolated cases of attempts to inflict Soviet tank strikes on enemy tanks, which immediately retreated behind their own defense line, saturated with anti-tank and anti-aircraft artillery, and were transferred to new areas of the breakthrough, where there were no Soviet tank units.
        1. Kwas
          Kwas 13 September 2021 22: 06
          0
          In theory. In practice, the Germans lost hundreds of tanks in these battles.
  • Svidetel 45
    Svidetel 45 10 September 2021 16: 30
    +2
    Most of our tanks in the photo do not look damaged, but simply abandoned, due to breakdowns or lack of fuel.
    1. sifgame
      sifgame 11 September 2021 12: 55
      0
      Very often it was, but loss is loss.
  • Shiden
    Shiden 10 September 2021 19: 34
    +1
    I read the comments and at least one commentator remembered Khal-Khin-Gol and the Ban-Tsagan massacre especially does not resemble the handwriting. And if it worked with the Japanese, then with the Germans near Dubno-Lutsk, there is no such trick.
  • mvg
    mvg 11 September 2021 04: 19
    0
    Such a number of equipment and people have perished ineptly. Khalkin-Gol, Khasan, the mediocre Finnish war were passed and they never learned how to fight. The Kiev district alone could have stopped the entire Barbarosa. Maybe our commanders should have been trained in German schools while they were allies?
    While the war was being waged in Europe: France, Czech Republic, Poland, was it really impossible to project such attacks and countermeasures on us? At least theoretically?
    PS: Forgive my French, but what would we do without America and England, without Lend-Lease, without a second front in Africa, without daily bombing of fascist factories, without 90 divisions that remained in the West.
    1. chenia
      chenia 11 September 2021 09: 00
      +4
      Quote: mvg
      PS: Forgive my French, but what would we do without America and England, without Lend-Lease,


      We do not forgive !!!
      At the time of the Battle of Kursk (the ridge of the Wehrmacht was broken), we received 4-5% for LL. (and the total LL for the war was 26%). And if you put successes in dependence on LL, then the British received almost (May 1943) at the time of this battle LL in 40%, fought with 4,5 divisions of the Wehrmacht (the Greeks and Yugoslavs held back more). This is to
      Quote: mvg
      without a second front in Africa,


      Quote: mvg
      without the daily bombing of fascist factories,

      In the year of the maximum air raids (1944), there is the highest production of German military products. Miracles, and nothing more.
      1. mvg
        mvg 11 September 2021 09: 25
        +2
        for LL we got 4-5%

        Because we were supplied with the most necessary things, which we did not have. High-quality engine oil, high-octane gasoline, duralumin, copper, machine tools (without which there would be no T-34-85), aircraft that were not inferior to German ones, 600 thousand vehicles
        PS: Who told you that the Battle of Kursk "broke the backbone" of the Wehrmacht, here are three battles for Kharkov, they almost broke the backbone of the Red Army, only 700 thousand soldiers "left" in captivity and cauldrons.
        LL began to enroll a month after the start of the war
        And Africa has deprived the Fritzes of oil, and why don't you write how much aviation England was diverting? Look at the numbers that the Fritzes were going to produce and how many they produced, for example, in the Panthers for 1943.
        P.P.S.: If you look at the statistics, then all the participants in the Second World War had an increase in production, not only in Germany
        https://historical-fact.livejournal.com/72615.html
        Pz Kpfw IV: up to 1939 - 115; 1939-141; 1940-278; 1941 - 467; 1942-1019; 1943-3013; 1944-3126; 1945 - 385; total - 8544.
        or
        Germany:
        1941 year - 3805
        1942 year - 6189
        1943 year - 10700
        1944 year - 18300
        1. chenia
          chenia 11 September 2021 09: 48
          +3
          Quote: mvg
          High-quality engine oil, high-octane gasoline, duralumin, copper, machine tools (without which there would be no T-34-85), aircraft that were not inferior to German ones, 600 thousand vehicles


          In the next two years. And yet, if the value of LL is decisive, it is a law. Then it must work in another place (like any law, for example, the laws of physics). Then why is the country that received many times more LL, is fighting much weaker (moreover, having a bunch of its weapons).

          Quote: mvg
          PS: Who told you that the Battle of Kursk "broke the backbone" of the Wehrmacht,


          I am telling you this, a professional soldier (in the past). The two defining main battles in WWII are Moscow and Kursk. Stalingrad is a pattern, it would not have happened if the corresponding operations of the Moscow battle were completed. "Bagration", Vistula-Oder is already a confirmation of the meaning (logical continuation) of the Kursk battle.
          1. mvg
            mvg 11 September 2021 10: 33
            -1
            Then why is the country that received many times more LL, is fighting much weaker (moreover, having a bunch of its weapons)

            Because there is a civil war in Afghanistan, and the Second World War was aggressive. Following the example - 1917, Russia
            Moscow and Kursk

            I'm not telling you about this, but about the fact that since the beginning of the Second World War in 1939, Germany has ALREADY fought on two fronts. Against the many times strongest at sea England, in the air with at least not weaker England and on land in Africa
            At the same time, keeping the occupation troops in Europe.
            Until the end of the war, the Kringsmarines built 800 submarines to limit US aid to England and Russia.
            If Hess in 41 had agreed on an armistice with England, then Moscow and Leningrad would have been taken. Aviation, of which there were more on the Western Front, would have gone to the East, the troops that held back the landing of the allies too, there are no bombings, no one compares Dresden and Nuremberg to the ground.
            Do you think Leningrad would have survived?
            And who would have Baku oil?
            1. Kwas
              Kwas 12 September 2021 13: 39
              0
              Of course, thanks to them for not fighting against us. By the way, you probably know that Hess wanted to negotiate the neutrality of England or an alliance with her? And why did they "kill him" so in time? In general, there were those allies, they formally fought, in fact, they almost stood on the sidelines, they only threw resources on both sides, so that they would kill each other more. No, we have more, no doubt, especially military equipment, Germany has more general resources.
        2. hohol95
          hohol95 11 September 2021 10: 15
          0
          What machines were used to produce shoulder straps for the turrets of the KV-1 and KV-1s tanks?
          On Lend-Lease?
          1. mvg
            mvg 11 September 2021 11: 17
            +1
            shoulder straps for the towers of the KV-1 and KV-1s tanks

            1535 mm vs 1600 mm. The reality is that this is exactly the case.
            I do not know whose machines were on the KV line, it is quite possible that they were German. I even think so. And I know for sure that during the war they would not have been sold to us again

            https://tms.ystu.ru/Stanor%20for%20t-34.pdf
            1. hohol95
              hohol95 11 September 2021 12: 32
              0
              Did you make shoulder straps for the main towers of the T-28 / T-35 on Lend-Lease vehicles?
              The machine tool of the Krasnoye Sormovo plant was in existence even before the war ... The first T-34-85 with D5T were manufactured there!
              And I could make similar shoulder straps, but the T-34 was designed the way it was designed! Claims to the military! What they themselves took on that and then fought!
              1. mvg
                mvg 11 September 2021 12: 43
                -3
                The machine tool of the Krasnoye Sormovo plant existed before the war

                Is this not the "unique" plant with the most disgusting quality? And almost aircraft engines?
                And you haven't answered the main question! Whose machine was in factories, whose "maid in"? Huge doubts that "made in the USSR" I, like, wrote that the machines that were in the USSR provided a run of 1500 mm (on the T-34-76 run of 1420 mm) and for the release of the T-34-85 with an acceptable quality was needed another "unit"
                The military has nothing to do with it, they accept equipment that meets the TK. Koshkin proposed such an option, apparently they already knew that the United States would deliver this. The USSR could not do this, so they put it on LL.
                I gave you a link to the document and made a clipping. hi
                1. hohol95
                  hohol95 11 September 2021 13: 12
                  0
                  Why buy what you yourself have done. In the glorious city of Krasnodar!
            2. hohol95
              hohol95 11 September 2021 13: 09
              0
              Vertical turning lathes for working with diameters up to 2000 mm were produced in Krasnodar before the war!
              1. mvg
                mvg 11 September 2021 13: 25
                +1
                with diameters up to 2000 mm were produced before the war in Krasnodar!

                You cut the sturgeon, I also know how to shoot a perch so that it seems that he is a kilogram humpback.
                Machine 152 was designed to work with a diameter of 1000 mm, 1937
                1. hohol95
                  hohol95 11 September 2021 14: 19
                  +1
                  And other machines were not produced in the USSR?
                  Yes, even German, Swiss ...
                  Do you have documents on complaints about the lack of carousel machines from the directors of the factories that produced the tanks ???
                  And documents demanding the purchase or order of such machines under Lend-Lease?
                  1. mvg
                    mvg 11 September 2021 14: 47
                    0
                    And other machines were not produced in the USSR?

                    Let's be consistent. They wrote that in Krasnodoi, at the Sedin plant, machines were produced with the ability to run as much as 2000 mm, they lied twice. After 152 machines in 1937, the next one appeared only in 1949, after the documentation brought from Germany.
                    152 the machine was developed together with the Americans, it is logical to assume that you need to buy it in America. How tested.
                    For German and Swiss. I told you that the machines were imported, rather German, which means that the sale during the Second World War is impossible. In Switzerland, I don't think they did.
                    Not every country will sell during the war. Even a neutral one, especially the watchmakers were on the side of the Germans de jure. Coal was supplied to them.
                    PS: Why don't you like the theory, confirmed by proofs, that in the USSR there were simply no such machines at that time?
                    For documents with complaints, I don’t have, I don’t like such documents. But for the plant "Krasny Somov" a lot was written on the VO.
                    For the% that you wrote, there are also doubts, since there was an order not to advertise significant deliveries of LL. But Matilda fought until the end of the war, the King Cobra planes were the best in the USSR at the end of the war, the Studebakers traveled for another 20 years, etc.
                    The fact is that out of 12000 Katyusha, only 500 are on a domestic chassis.
                    And Long-Range Aviation for 1945 consisted of 48 aircraft, mainly B-17, B-29, Liberators, which had crashed down. And 8 machines IL-8
                    In 1945, they would have faced directly with the allies - they would have gasped.
                    1. hohol95
                      hohol95 11 September 2021 15: 02
                      0
                      There was no long-range bomber aviation in the USSR. There was the 18th agitated army. The main machines of which were Il-4 and B-25 "Mitchell".
                      And not the "mythical" B17 / 29 ...
                      1. mvg
                        mvg 11 September 2021 15: 24
                        -1
                        And not the "mythical" B17 / 29 ...

                        DB-3, is it interesting what? With a range of 7000 km. Who bombed Berlin in 41, what 8 cars flew there?
                        Was what I wrote. At the time of the end of the war, the DBA included 48 vehicles, of which 40 were restored fallen American and British vehicles. Why would we make Tu-4 then
                        PS: I will not look for proofs, I want to sleep. It's easy to find proofs. Several hours, in just a few days. I will not give numbers, I go nuts myself. hi
      2. ccsr
        ccsr 11 September 2021 17: 10
        -1
        Quote: chenia
        In the year of the maximum air raids (1944), there is the highest production of German military products. Miracles, and nothing more.

        No miracles - the duplicity of the allies manifested itself throughout the war. Here is the testimony of the GSS I.I. Lezhov, who fought the entire war as an air reconnaissance officer and really saw how the allies retained the military potential of Germany:
        1. mvg
          mvg 12 September 2021 02: 10
          -1
          No miracles - the duplicity of the allies manifested itself throughout the war.

          There is nothing surprising in the fact that the Americans did not bomb the factories in which they had invested heavily before the war. Henry Ford invested heavily in the German economy.
          Victory is in their pockets, the factories will go to them, why destroy their own?
          But ... what threatened them was destroyed. They greatly slowed down the production of engines for Messers and Fokkers, destroyed the capacity for the production of synthetic fuels, slowed down the production of Panthers by three times (154 instead of 500 according to the plan), burned Nuremberg and much more. But then, after landing in Normandy, we reached Berlin in months, and we gnawed every meter. They took Berlin by storm, killing a lot of people, and the Americans entered from the "front" entrance.
          PS: Can I say it differently? Someone outplayed us? Bleed all their former and future opponents, while they themselves are on horseback? They acted smarter than our mustachioed genius, who did not believe in the War and stupid military leaders with a 3-grade education.
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 12 September 2021 10: 47
            -1
            Quote: mvg
            But ... what threatened them was destroyed

            Do not expect that someone will buy into this fairy tale - there are few naive here, given the fact that engine-building enterprises produced engines not only for aircraft.


            What did Mercedes, BMW, Volkswagen, Maybach and Porsche produce during World War II?

            https://zen.yandex.ru/media/mugska9i_territori9i/chto-proizvodili-mersedes-bmv-folksvagen-maibah-i-porshe-v-gody-vtoroi-mirovoi-5d7681a7ecfb8000ae53f7d6
            Quote: mvg
            But then, after landing in Normandy, we reached Berlin in months, and we gnawed out every meter.

            They "passed" so quickly that later in the Ardennes they begged Stalin to launch an unprepared offensive - we know about their "victories" over the weaker German divisions in France, because the main forces of the Wehrmacht were on the Eastern Front.
            Quote: mvg
            They took Berlin by storm, killing a lot of people, and the Americans entered from the "front" entrance.

            And it could not be otherwise - Americans are cowardly fighters by nature, like the whole Western world, when the question concerns their own skin. The current events in Afghanistan have proved this once again.
            Quote: mvg
            They acted smarter than our mustachioed genius, who did not believe in the War and stupid military leaders with a 3-grade education.

            If Germany had a common border with the United States, and the USSR was overseas from Germany, then we would have outplayed the Americans even more if Hitler had attacked America with ground forces.
            What are you actually talking about - or did you not study geography at school, reaching only the 3rd grade?
            1. mvg
              mvg 12 September 2021 12: 13
              0
              engine-building enterprises produced engines not only for aircraft.

              Tell me, pliz, what motors were on the BF-109 and FW-190, there are only two of them, well, there are different modifications, and heels of factories. DB and BMW (BieMVi) It's hard for me to look for 3 classes in the internet, I can only name them from memory.
              Neither Mercedes nor Volkswagen Group wink then it was not yet. Porsche made the chassis. The Maybachs were on the Tigers and Panthers. wink as on the T-4
              we know about their "victories" over the weaker divisions of the Germans in France, because the main forces of the Wehrmacht were on the Eastern Front.

              101 (501) Heavy Tank Battalion (SS Elite Unit) since 1944, where did you fight? Which front?
              503 heavy tank battalion, where did he fight from 1944? These are the most combat-ready units of the Wehrmacht at that time.
              A weaker enemy cannot be found, how not to look.
              And yes, where the most combat-ready aviation fought, Walter Novotny, Me-262, does it tell you anything?
              The correct answer is the Ardennes, then Germany.
              The current events in Afghanistan have proved this once again.

              And what were the Soviet troops doing there for 15 years? And how did it end? Are the losses comparable? By technique, by people. And Afghan is our neighbor, there is no need to transport equipment because of a puddle, people ...
              Mr. Gromov "stole" what was left, leaving technology no less, if not more, than the United States
              If Germany had a common border with the United States, and the USSR was overseas from Germany

              If my grandmother had ... she would be a grandfather. We could organize a normal defense, prepare materiel and fuel. Opening prepared defense is 1 to 3. Only Hasan and Halkin-Gol had Finnish ... experience, like a fool of a makhorka.
              PS: They all tell this in grade 3, optional
              1. ccsr
                ccsr 12 September 2021 13: 00
                -1
                Quote: mvg
                Tell me, pliz, what motors were on the BF-109 and FW-190, there are only two of them, well, there are different modifications, and heels of factories. DB and BMW (BieMVi) It's hard for me to look for 3 classes in the internet, I can only name them from memory.

                What does this change in the question of the fact that the Allies conducted a two-faced policy regarding the destruction of Germany's MILITARY potential throughout the war? Moreover, they still turned a blind eye to the supply of raw materials and materials to Germany throughout the war, through the same Sweden and Spain.
                Quote: mvg
                Neither Mercedes nor Volkswagen Group existed at that time. Porsche made the chassis. The Maybachs were on the Tigers and Panthers. as on the T-4

                So these enterprises were not destroyed - this is what I.I. Lezzhov wrote about in his book.
                Quote: mvg
                101 (501) Heavy Tank Battalion (SS Elite Unit) since 1944, where did you fight? Which front?

                And what did you remember the end of the war, shyly keeping silent about where he fought in 1943?
                The 101st Heavy Tank Battalion was created on July 19, 1943, as part of the 1st SS Panzer Corps, by forming two new heavy tank companies, consisting of heavy tanks Pz.Kpfw.VI "Tiger", and joining the 13th (heavy) companies of the tank regiment of the SS motorized division "Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler". It was attached to the SS Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler Division and sent to Italy on 23 August 1943, where it remained until mid-October. Then the 1st and 2nd companies were sent to the Eastern Front, while the other part of the unit remained in the west..

                And the number of tanks in a battalion is generally incomparable with the number of tanks in a division - are you shyly keeping silent about this too?
                Quote: mvg
                And yes, where the most combat-ready aviation fought, Walter Novotny, Me-262, does it tell you anything?

                It had already been destroyed mainly on the Eastern Front by 1944 - you are doing distortion here too.
                Quote: mvg
                And what were the Soviet troops doing there for 15 years? And how did it end? Are the losses comparable? By technique, by people.

                We controlled the territory of almost all of Afghanistan and the United States and the West fought against us, supplying weapons to the Mujahideen. If Russia began to help the Taliban in Afghanistan, then the losses of the Americans would increase many times - you haven’t figured it out here either, but you are already undertaking to speculate on the numbers. By the way, after us Najibullah held out for several years - this is what shows what we have achieved in Afghanistan in ten years, not twenty.
                Quote: mvg
                Mr. Gromov "stole" what was left, leaving technology no less, if not more, than the United States

                Lies, because they took out all the equipment, and left only what fell under the intergovernmental agreement.
                Quote: mvg
                There was only Khasan and Halkin-Gol with Finnish ... experience, like a fool of a makhorka.
                PS: They all tell this in grade 3, optional

                Apparently class 3 turned out to be your last - for a start, at least study how many troops participated in these conflicts in order to speculate on the combat experience of the Red Army before June 22.
                1. mvg
                  mvg 12 September 2021 13: 47
                  +1
                  And what did you remember the end of the war, shyly keeping silent about where he fought in 1943?

                  You, forgive me, when you write something, what do you think?
                  He was 44 in the Ardennes, because the 2nd front was opened there, so elite units were distorted there. This is to the question of who the Americans fought with.
                  Battalions 501 and 503 are Royal Tigers, of which there were nothing at all in the East.
                  For the Me-262 and Novotny ... JG-54 was created only in 44, and Walter became its commander. Me-262 in the East were not even announced. By the way, since the beginning of the war, about 2/3 of the Luftwaffe aviation fought in the West, and not against wooden Yaks. There are all the aces of Von Borkhov, Hartmann, Novotny, etc.
                  You are a zombie person of the USSR, who studied history only at school, then read a couple of "field" novels, you don't even try to find something true. Here it is hammered into the head and everything is the truth.
                  Do you have a word like Logic that says something? What was the restraint in the West (land) if a new Military campaign began in the East? Therefore, there are 270 divisions, and in the West there are 90. But the Allied aviation caused problems, in contrast to the Red Army Air Force, which all perished at once. The battle for England there ... We (the USSR) did not bomb the Germans at 1000 B-29 Flying Fortresses and Liberators + 300 P-51D Mustangs and Spitfires, we didn’t have so many.
                  The RF Air Force "woke up" only when the Germans went to Baku for oil.
                  PS: My 3 grades, they will give your 9 odds, and not only in mathematics. I see no reason to convince grandfather to change his worldview, it is better to raise a glass and a half 22 and calm down.
                  1. ccsr
                    ccsr 12 September 2021 19: 20
                    -1
                    Quote: mvg
                    He was 44 in the Ardennes, because the 2nd front was opened there, so elite units were distorted there. This is to the question of who the Americans fought with.

                    Despite the fact that all the most combat-ready divisions of the Germans fought on the Eastern Front, and not on the Second Front.
                    Quote: mvg
                    Battalions 501 and 503 are Royal Tigers, of which there were nothing at all in the East.

                    These battalions generally did not play a special role due to the small number of tanks in them.
                    Quote: mvg
                    By the way, since the beginning of the war, about 2/3 of the Luftwaffe's aviation fought in the West, and not against wooden Yaks. There are all the aces of Von Borkhov, Hartmann, Novotny, etc.

                    This is a heinous lie, because with the outbreak of the war, the Germans lost almost as many aircraft on the Eastern Front in three months as they did in the Battle of England during 1940.
                    Quote: mvg
                    Therefore, there are 270 divisions, and 90 in the West.

                    It is from this ratio that you need to judge where the best forces of the Germans fought, and not primitively lie about some single Hartmans, because the decisive role was played by the masses of troops involved in the battles.
                    Quote: mvg
                    We (USSR) did not bomb the Germans at 1000 B-29 Flying Fortresses and Liberators + 300 P-51D Mustangs and Spitfires, we didn’t have so many.

                    We needed other aviation to support the ground forces, and primarily assault and fighter aircraft, which is why front-line bombers were more important to us than strategic ones - learn materiel to understand military affairs.
                    Quote: mvg
                    PS: My 3 grades, they will give your 9 odds, and not only in mathematics. I see no reason to convince grandfather to change his worldview, it is better to raise a glass and a half 22 and calm down.

                    From this text, your wretchedness is too visible - more subtly you need to hide your ignorance.
          2. Kwas
            Kwas 13 September 2021 21: 48
            0
            That is why, in particular, America is hated and danced on its bones.
    2. Kwas
      Kwas 12 September 2021 13: 14
      +1
      Quote: mvg
      but what would we do without America and England,

      They would have fought. But thanks to them at least for not fighting against us, it would be much more difficult.
      Quote: mvg
      without Lend-Lease,

      Quote: mvg
      without the daily bombing of fascist factories
      Can you remind me, please, when did both begin? On a decent scale, of course.
      Quote: mvg
      Such a number of equipment and people have perished ineptly.

      In war, as you know, there are lost battles. For example, the French disaster in 1940 or the German disaster in Belarus in 1944. And it is correct to say not "talentless", but "not meaningless."
      1. mvg
        mvg 13 September 2021 04: 38
        0
        Can you remind me, please, when did both begin?

        Since 1940, approximately
        // During the battle, aircraft factories and ground infrastructure were also bombed. //
        For example the French disaster of 1940

        2 prisoners, and thousands of armored vehicles, most of them abandoned, thousands of aircraft destroyed on the ground. How do you call it?
        PS: This is not a disaster, this is an apocalypse
        1. Kwas
          Kwas 13 September 2021 22: 10
          0
          Quote: mvg
          Since 1940, approximately

          You are wrong. In 1940, on the contrary, the Germans bombed England. And Western bombing and Lend-Lease on a more or less significant scale began only in 1943.
  • demiurg
    demiurg 11 September 2021 07: 28
    +3
    Another cosmonauts and homosexuals on Topvar.

    Why is nobody interested in the actions of Pliev's cavalry-mechanized group during the liberation of Minsk? Or the organization of VET at Balaton? I don’t remember a long article about the Vyborg-Petrozavodsk operation.

    Well, yes, I see. A week has passed, it is time for the Mokshans to remind them of their worthlessness. On August 27, there was another article.

    https://topwar.ru/186382-baltijskaja-tragedija-kak-baltflot-proryvalsja-v-kronshtadt.html#comment-id-11732133
    And by great coincidence, the author is the same. At Samsonov after 1917, nothing good happened on the territory of the USSR and Russia, and earlier not very often.

    The national fun of the citizens of the Russian Federation is to remember who beat us and where. We do not like to remember our victories. We throw meat at the enemies.
    1. Shiden
      Shiden 11 September 2021 08: 34
      -3
      Valera and ring me for familiarity, but the national fun of the citizens of the Russian Federation is out of place and out of place to remember past victories. Look at what turned into a show on May 9 and all this is served under a patriotic sauce, we "can repeat" Only they forget how much the peoples of the USSR paid for such a Victory.
      1. demiurg
        demiurg 11 September 2021 08: 49
        +4
        Whose national fun ??
        Will a victory from Great Britain in honor of the Battle of Trafalgar do?


        About what country else to throw a local victory? France, USA, Germany, Japan, Switzerland?
        In the Russian Federation, in honor of the Battle of Kulikovo, no parades are organized yet. And it is customary all over the world to remind your former enemies of their humiliation. And he is proud of the victories of his ancestors too.

        And I doubt that the most popular resources on the military history of the United States are packed with articles about Monte Cassino, or weekly reminders about Operation Cottage.
      2. sifgame
        sifgame 11 September 2021 12: 53
        +2
        They remember not to forget how much they paid. Don't write nonsense.
    2. Konnick
      Konnick 11 September 2021 11: 25
      +2
      Another cosmonauts and homosexuals on Topvar.

      Why is nobody interested in the actions of Pliev's cavalry-mechanized group during the liberation of Minsk?

      Write an article, we will discuss the actions of the KMG in the complete absence of opposition from enemy aircraft, as the most effective way of dealing with large cavalry groups and mechanized units. What's interesting there? Yes, we were the first to reach the state border. And what else? It is necessary to remind about the failures, otherwise some are still fighting with tanks in the first line, infantry fighting vehicles in the second and this whole horde rushes to the enemy's trenches, who, having seen the Armata and Boomerangi, surrenders. But this does not work, and the tank battle near Dubno and Brody did not work out. Our tanks did not meet with German tanks, but met with anti-tank guns and lack of fuel and spare parts. And most importantly, there were no generals who knew how to think.

      A week has passed, it is time for the Mokshans to remind them of their worthlessness.

      Demiurg, and in what sense do you use the word "mokshane", are you from the outskirts? Actually
      1. demiurg
        demiurg 11 September 2021 13: 55
        +1
        Are you from the outskirts?

        Nit. I'm from the suburb of Novosibirsk.
        Of course, nothing interesting when some army has superiority in the experience of commanders and personnel, has air superiority, the army is well motivated and has a high morale. This is if you write about the army of the Soviet Union.
        But this not interesting to anyone does not prevent the same Samsonov from sucking on the failures of the Red Army.
    3. Eug
      Eug 11 September 2021 13: 19
      0
      At least in order to draw the correct conclusions and prevent this from happening in the future. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work out ...
  • Eug
    Eug 11 September 2021 13: 12
    +2
    There was a serious mistake by the command of the Red Army in determining the line of "bending" of the German tank wedge, as a result, the counterstrike came nowhere. And the motor resource and fuel were wasted ...
    1. Eug
      Eug 11 September 2021 22: 42
      0
      In the same way, the command of the Western Front was mistaken - the Germans bent the "pincers" there, not near Baranovichi, in the direction of which they organized a counterattack in order to cut off the TDs that had gone ahead, but much to the east - in the Minsk region. Whether these errors were accidental and unrelated - I doubt, as for me, rather reflected the schematic thinking of the "operational minds" of the Red Army ...
  • militarist63
    militarist63 12 September 2021 23: 22
    0
    We look at the photo where it is signed:
    German soldiers inspect the Soviet commander (radio) T-26 tank, knocked out on the Vladimir-Volynsky-Lutsk highway ...
    I want to ask the author - and where is the commander's (radio) tank ... In the photo is the most common linear T-26. Where is the handrail antenna on the tower?
    Here's the next photo titled:
    A German soldier-traffic controller is directing the movement of a convoy on a street in the city of Lutsk .......
    indeed, the commander's (radio) tank is clearly visible behind the traffic controller, only the BT-7.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 13 September 2021 15: 54
    0
    There is absolutely no loss ratio in this battle ..
  • lazas
    lazas 22 September 2021 13: 18
    0
    Yes, to fight with the "head" - it must be able to. And to draw conclusions, so to speak, work on mistakes. Everyone knows what the famous commander Suvorov said, but few do so. And the last war in Chechnya showed it. They fought not by skill, but by number and betrayal ... For which the Russian guys paid in full ... And not a single bastard with large shoulder straps (and not only) will answer for this. From this, you also need to draw conclusions ...