Military Review

Long-range shooting during the Russo-Japanese War

119

Very often, both ZP Rozhestvensky and our other admirals of the Russo-Japanese War era are accused of unwillingness to learn how to shoot at long distances, which is usually understood as a distance of 60–70 cables, or even more. How fair are such reproaches?


What could have forced our admirals to engage in "ultra-long" shooting?


Let's take a look at the military clashes at sea between the Russian and the Japanese fleets from the beginning of the war to the battle of Shantung inclusive.

The first major naval battle of the Russo-Japanese War took place on January 27, 1904, when Heihachiro Togo's fleet attacked our squadron, which was recovering in the outer roadstead from a night destroyer strike. From this battle, in fact, the war began.

It was quite short and did not lead to any result. Official Japanese historiography claims that the flagship of H. Togo began the battle at a distance of 46,5 cables, and later the distance between the main forces was reduced to 24 cables. Ours reported that the battle took place on 24-35 cables, while the cruisers were coming closer.

The battle in Chemulpo began from a distance of 45 cables, after which the opponents approached.

And the battle on February 12, when the main forces of the Japanese fleet attacked 3 Russian armored cruisers located in the outer roadstead, began from an even smaller distance - 40 cables.

Thus, the first clashes at sea, although they took place at a greater range than was expected before the war, would not have suggested to anyone that one should immediately begin to learn how to shoot at 60-80 cables.

Cross-country shooting.

Here everything was much more interesting, since our officers believed that they managed to achieve a hit from 13,5-14 versts, that is, from about 78-81 kabeltov (artillery).

But how did this happen?

It began with the fact that on February 26, Japanese battleships fired from a distance of about 88 cables from behind Liaoteshan, while their cruisers, standing at a distance of 8-10 miles from the entrance to the inner roadstead, tried to adjust their fire. In total, 154 shells were used up, 3 hits were achieved ("Askold", "Retvizan", "Sevastopol"), despite the fact that both hits on the battleships fell on the armor, and in no case was it pierced.

It was extremely difficult to draw any conclusions based on such statistics.

On the one hand, the accuracy achieved by the Japanese (1,95%) was frankly disappointing, especially since the Russian ships were stationary. But, on the other hand, it was not clear whether the Japanese were able to adjust the fire, or were they just shooting in the area? It was only clear that such attacks carried a certain threat, and they needed to be countered, why measures were taken in our squadron to organize return fire.

By the way, on February 26, our coastal batteries tried to shoot at the Japanese, and there was even an opinion that, perhaps, it was possible to achieve hits on "apparently," Takasago "and a cruiser of the" Tokiwa "type, which approached the coast.

I'll make a reservation right away - it's not at all about the fact that our artillerymen managed to get into the Japanese cruisers. But our admirals did not have an afterthought, and when making this or that decision, they could operate only with information they knew, which was often speculative. For example, if, when shooting 80 cables at an enemy ship, our officers thought that they regularly hit the target, then this could prompt them to try to shoot at such distances and further, even if there were no hits in fact.

So, although it is not known from what distance the Russian sailors "observed" hits on the enemy cruisers (which in fact did not exist), but it could not have been great.

The fact is that the bulk of the coastal artillery could not fire beyond 8 versts (8 m or 480 cables), and only the newest 46-mm guns - about 254 cables. The thing is that the latter had at their disposal only armor-piercing and cast-iron shells. It was pointless to shoot armor-piercing at long distances, especially since they were not even equipped with explosives. Cast iron ones were allowed to shoot only with a practical charge, with which such projectiles flew a little further than 60 versts, that is, 10 cables.

Accordingly, even the assumption that coastal artillery was successful could hardly push our sailors to urgently learn to shoot at a distance of over 60 cables.

The next time the Japanese tried to bombard the fortress on March 9, 1904.

On this day, Fuji and Yashima separated from the approaching Japanese squadron, which, approaching the Liaoteshan lighthouse, opened fire. In response, Retvizan and Pobeda fired 29 shells, achieving, as our observers believed, one hit (3,45% accuracy), while the official documents included a distance of 13,5 or 14 versts, that is, 78-81 kabeltov ...

It would seem that this is it, evidence of an increase in the distance of artillery combat!

But the fact is that this time the Japanese battleships preferred to fire not on the move, but from the spot, so when the Russian shells began to land close to the "Fuji", in the opinion of our observers, at some point even gave reverse. It is quite obvious that shooting from a stationary ship at another, read motionless, very little resembles a real sea battle. And, even if only 3,5% accuracy was achieved in such generally favorable conditions, how much can one expect in a real battle, when both ships are not only moving, but also maneuvering?

Domestic historiography notes that the main effect of the retaliatory firing of Russian battleships was to force the Japanese to move during the shelling and thereby reduce the accuracy of their fire.

So, in my opinion, it was hardly possible to draw far-reaching conclusions about the possibility of successfully waging an artillery battle at long distances on the basis of hitting the "Fuji". Especially since the Japanese official story generally denies this hit, although he reports that the Russian shells lay not far from the battleship.


But when the enemy ships were moving, it was even more difficult to hit them.

The third shelling of the Russian squadron took place on April 2, it was carried out by Nissin and Kasuga. At the same time, the Japanese cruisers, although they reduced their speed, did not try to shoot from the spot. The Russian squadron responded by using up 34 shells, of which 28 were fired by Peresvet, but did not reach hits.

Thus, the flip fire of our ships could not "advise" the Naval Ministry to urgently learn to shoot 60-80 cables.

With the battle at Shantung, everything turned out much more interesting.

The first phase of the battle in the Yellow Sea, which took place on July 28, 1904, mainly took place at extremely large distances for the Russo-Japanese War. The Japanese, according to our observers, opened fire at about 80-90 or even 100 cables. Later, according to many reports, the distance between the main forces did not fall less than 57-60 cables, and only briefly, at about 13:00, was reduced to less than 50 cables. But soon it increased again, and later amounted to 60 cables and more until the very end of the first phase.

All eyewitnesses noted that there was a long period of time when the ships were forced to fight only with the main caliber, since the distances were too great for 152-mm guns.

Could this experience indicate the need to urgently learn to fight at a great distance?

Yes, but only if ours or the Japanese, shooting at 60-100 cables, would have achieved some kind of success. But, in the opinion of our sailors, luck was not accompanied by any of the parties. The officers of the 1st Pacific Squadron did not consider that they were able to inflict significant damage on the enemy in the first phase of the battle. And when VK Vitgeft ordered the commanders of the ships to report the damage, none of them reported anything significant.

But the Japanese noted something.

In a lecture given by K. Abo to British officers after the war, it was mentioned about the serious damage and losses caused by the Russian 152-mm shell of the Poltava, which hit the Yakumo from a distance of 13 yards, that is, about 000 cables.

There is no doubt that a Russian shell hit the Yakumo - Russian sources believe it was a 305mm shell. K. Abo noted the death of 22 people, as the Japanese official history says. Other sources note the death of 9 people and the injury of 12 more, but in any case the losses were significant.

However, the distance of 65 cables looks more than doubtful, because the maximum firing range of the six-inch Poltava was only 53 cables. However, within the framework of this article, both the caliber of the projectile and the distance from which it actually hit the Japanese cruiser are completely uninteresting. For one simple reason: our sailors did not believe that the hit to the Yakumo was achieved from a long distance.

"Yakumo" received this hit in the period between two phases, when it caught up with the main forces of H. Togo and approached the Russian ships. According to the report of von Essen, the Poltava and Sevastopol trams opened fire on him, while the distance between Poltava and Yakumo (again, according to von Essen) was no more than 40 cables. Thus, regardless of the distance from which the projectile that hit the Yakumo was actually fired, the Russian sailors had no reason to believe that this was an effective hit from 65 cables.

If you look at the experience of the battle at Shantung as a whole, it is quite obvious that while the Japanese fleet was fighting at a long distance, it did not achieve its goal - it could not stop the Russian ships breaking through to Vladivostok. Success came only during the next phase, when the main forces of H. Togo caught up with the 1st Pacific Squadron, entered the battle at a distance of 40-45 cables and then reduced it to 24 cables and even less.

Thus, the battle at Shantung rather disproved the usefulness of combat at a distance of 60–80 cables, rather than confirmed it. And therefore there is nothing surprising in the fact that Cherkasov (senior artillery officer of Peresvet), who participated in this battle, considered 60 cables to be the maximum distance of an artillery battle based on the results of the battle, and Grevenitz adhered to the same point of view even after the Russo-Japanese War.

About the material part


Let's start with a simple one - the 254-mm and 305-mm turrets of the Russian fleet were technically not very suitable for firing at such distances. During the cross-fire on April 2, the battleship "Poltava", firing two shots at an elevation angle close to the maximum, encountered the fact that piller rivets began to fly out. The machine broke down at Sevastopol. On "Peresvet", when shooting at 90 cables, too strong shocks and periodic failure of the electrical supply in the towers were noted.


Removal of the gun damaged by the shooting from the battleship "Sevastopol"

In principle, our towers did not have any catastrophic flaws, it was about the need for some improvement, but who and when would have done it during the war?

Further. Shooting at such distances was not at all provided with the fire control capabilities available in those years. Even the most modern rangefinders, which entered the Russian fleet after the start of the Russo-Japanese War with a base of 4,5 feet, could not determine such distances with acceptable accuracy. Of course, it was possible, having determined the distance to the enemy at least in the largest approximation, to clarify it by zeroing in, but there were some difficulties.

As you know, in the Russian fleet, 152-mm cannons were shot everywhere. Taking into account the fact that the maximum range of such guns on the battleships of the Borodino type reached 62 cables, this was the maximum distance at which it was possible to start zeroing. Since the maximum range of guns in battle is usually slightly lower than the passport values, perhaps it should be said that technically six-inch guns could shoot and fight somewhere in the 57-60 cables maximum.

But - only on condition that the ammunition contains suitable shells, the fall of which will be clearly distinguishable. In the opinion of our naval officers, the fall of the Japanese high-explosive shells was quite clearly visible to 60 cables, but we did not have such shells. As for the available steel high-explosive, not exploding on the water, or cast iron, which, although they had an instant detonator, but carried only a small charge of black powder, the fall of such shells could be observed by about 40 cables. It was not that zeroing in with our 60-cable Tsushima shells was completely impossible, but it obviously required ideal weather conditions, which do not always happen at sea.

Thus, in order to fight at distances of 60-80 cables, it was required to shoot from 305-mm guns. Which, alas, at that time were not very suitable for this task.

The problem was that our 305-mm / 40 cannons, which in the bulk were armed with Russian squadron battleships during the Russo-Japanese War, even according to a passport could fire no more than once every 90 seconds, but in reality, even a two-minute readiness to the shot was considered a good achievement. It was extremely difficult to shoot from such artillery systems.

The more often the guns were fired, the easier it was for the senior artilleryman to "discard" the inevitable errors that did not depend on the sight taken, such as dispersion and error in the "sampling" of the roll angle. Therefore, ideally, by the time the fire manager sees the fall of the volley, calculates and determines the necessary amendments, the guns should be ready to fire the next volley. Six-inches, quite capable of firing several shots per minute, met this task, but twelve-inches, with their more than two-minute pause, did not.

The low rate of fire of domestic 305-mm guns made it difficult to zero in, requiring an increased consumption of shells for it. At the same time, twelve-inch shells were too valuable to be scattered about.

Even retrospectively, taking into account the afterthought, one could hardly expect that in the absence of high-quality rangefinders, calculating devices, etc. squadron battleships fighting on 60-80 cables would be able to achieve an accuracy of 3-4%. But if so, the Russian battleships, having a standard ammunition load of 60 rounds per gun, could count on 7-10 hits if the ammunition was completely used up. And since the shells at such distances did not penetrate any thick armor, it was impossible to count on inflicting decisive damage. So what is the point in fighting and wasting precious ammunition without the hope of achieving a decisive result?

Between the Russo-Japanese War and the First World War, much more advanced rangefinders appeared, a number of upgrades made it possible to increase the rate of fire of 305-mm / 40 guns to approximately one shot in 45-50 seconds, calculating devices appeared as part of artillery fire control devices. All this created the prerequisites for effective shooting at a distance of 70-100 cables.

But in the Russo-Japanese War, these prerequisites did not yet exist.

About the theory of artillery combat


Alas, the level of Russian artillery science did not allow effective long-range shooting. I would like to note that the Black Sea Fleet, which in the period before the First World War showed excellent accuracy when firing at long distances in exercises, did not achieve this immediately and not suddenly, but through a lot of practice, a comparative test of different methods and a huge one, by Dotsushima standards. consumption of heavy shells.

In order to successfully fire at long distances with the shells at the disposal of the Russian Imperial Navy, it was necessary to zero in with volleys, use a fork, and evaluate flights and covers by missing bursts. In the Russo-Japanese War, methods that would take into account all this simply did not exist. Grevenitz included shooting in volleys in his instructions, but it is unclear whether this happened during the Russo-Japanese War, or after it? ZP Rozhestvensky, by a separate order, approved the need for a fork - but nothing more.

Thus, in order to develop a method of shooting at long distances with the main caliber, it was required to conduct a lot of experimental shooting, their analysis, etc. etc. - the Russian Empire, which entered the war, had neither the time nor the resources for this. And even if such techniques were created, there would be little sense from them, because there would be no time left for training the gunners anyway.

Suppose that the experience of the battle at Shantung would nevertheless initiate the creation of a method of shooting for 60–80 cables. But when was it done? While the commanders would write their reports, while they would be transferred to Petersburg, while they were analyzed there and appropriate decisions would be made, in any case, weeks would have passed, that is, the decision would have been made, at best, in mid-August 1904. And the 2nd Pacific Squadron left its native shores on October 2, 1904, in other words, there was at most a month and a half before its departure. It would be strange to expect that during this time it would be possible to create a method of shooting at "ultra-long" (for those times) distances: after the war, the Black Sea artillerymen took much longer to do this.

But even if they did, when was it to teach this technique to the gunners of the 2nd Pacific? On a hike? So he in itself was an extremely difficult and difficult event, which, generally speaking, had no analogues in the past.

Both Russian and foreign warships went to the Far East, of course. But these campaigns were carried out by individual ships or small detachments, in peacetime, when any harbors and ports were ready to receive them. Here it was necessary to drag a large squadron across half the world, made up of very different ships, a significant part of which was simply not intended for such transitions (destroyers), the other was just built and did not have the practice and time to identify and eliminate technical faults.

Do not forget that initially, when ZP Rozhestvensky's ships left, long-term anchorages in Madagascar and off the coast of Annam were not planned at all, that is, there was no time for long-term exercises. In addition, the same resource issue arose - such training required a large consumption of large-caliber shells, which the squadron could not afford.

The analogies are, of course, rather arbitrary.

But in my opinion, the proposal of the 2nd Pacific Squadron to study new methods of artillery combat on a campaign is somewhat akin to recommending a Soviet tank corps of 1941 model not only to engage in battle with the Nazis immediately after an 800-kilometer march, but also to Also, on the way, he mastered and worked out the tactics used by the German "Panzerwaffe". Despite the fact that the means of communication and additional cars that are needed for this were not delivered to our corps, and only a little more than usual was given out fuel and ammunition.

And what about the Japanese?


In view of the above, it is not surprising that H. Togo, after the battle at Shantung, did not at all strive for long-range combat. Preparing for Tsushima, he assumed it was necessary to start the battle at 33 cables (6 m) and did not recommend shooting at more than 000 cables (38 m).

Conclusions


The Russian Imperial Navy was absolutely not ready to shoot 60-80 cables in the Russo-Japanese War.

He had no prerequisites for this. The experience gained did not indicate the need for shooting at such distances. There were no such shooting techniques: in fact, the best available techniques were not optimal even for a fight of 40-60 cables. The material part had 3 critical and irreparable shortcomings in wartime: low accuracy of rangefinders, low rate of fire and technical unreliability of heavy artillery mounts when firing at distances close to maximum.

At the same time, the experience of previous battles testified that even if the battle began at a great distance, the enemy would strive to reduce it to at least 30–40 cables or even closer.

Z.P. Rozhestvensky wrote in his order:

“Our seven battleships with Nakhimov, seven cruisers with Almaz, seven destroyers and armed transports are a very great force.

The enemy will not dare to oppose his fleet to her otherwise than from long distances and with the expectation of an advantage in the course: he has docks; he can repair underwater parts. This means that we must reckon with this: let him walk as soon as possible, if only we knew how to reach it with fire at the distances from which it will hit us. "

The logic is quite obvious here.

Since the Russian squadron is superior to the Japanese fleet in heavy guns, it will have an advantage at short distances, where 254-305-mm shells can penetrate enemy armor. The Japanese, possessing superiority in speed, will strive to maintain a distance that excludes the defeat of the most protected parts of their ships with armor-piercing shells.

ZP Rozhestvensky ordered to switch to armor-piercing shells with a caliber of 254-305 mm from 20 cables, and it could be assumed that the Japanese would not approach such a distance. Without superiority in speed, it was impossible to impose rapprochement on them. At the same time, H. Togo achieved success at Shantung in the 2nd phase of the battle, where the battle distance was reduced from 40–45 to 24 cables.

It was to be expected that in Tsushima a decisive battle would be fought at 25-45 cables, that is, at a distance from where the Japanese could shoot accurately enough, but without entering the zone of destruction of armor-piercing shells of Russian heavy guns. This assumption was quite logical, it took into account the combat experience acquired by our sailors, and fully corresponded to the real Japanese plans. Except perhaps that H. Togo in the Tsushima battle, having seriously damaged the head Russian battleships, was not afraid to converge with the Russian ships and closer than 20 cables.

Thus, the artillerymen of the 2nd and 3rd Pacific squadrons should have been trained for combat at a distance of 25-45 cables, and if further, it would still be within the firing range of six-inch artillery, that is, no more than 60 cables. This could be done according to the methods that existed at that time, allowed for zeroing from 152-mm guns and did not "overextend" the turret mounts of heavy guns.

Judging by the testimony of senior artillery officers, this is exactly how the 2nd Pacific Squadron trained.

From the story of the senior artillery officer of the battleship "Eagle" Lieutenant Shamshev:

The firing was carried out by the entire squadron, at the pyramidal shields; walked in wake formation; the distance between ships is 2 cables; weather conditions are favorable. The longest distance is 55, the shortest is 15 cables.

Testimony of the senior artillery officer of the battleship Sisoy the Great, Lieutenant Malechkin:

Shooting was carried out at long distances, starting from about 70 cab. and up to 40 cab., but "Sisoy the Great" usually started firing from 60 cab. from 12 "guns, and from 50 cab. from 6" guns, because the elevation angles of the guns did not allow using a larger tabular range.

From the memoirs of an artillery officer of the cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" Lieutenant Smirnov:

During the firing, the squadron maneuvered around the set three pyramidal shields; the shooting took place at a distance of 15–20 cab. for small artillery and 25-40 cab. for large.

Noteworthy is the large scatter in the readings.

In my opinion, this is due to the ambiguity of the wording of the question about the firing of the Investigative Commission, which sounded like this: "What practical firing were carried out by the ships of the 2nd squadron and how many shots were fired with real shells (and not training barrels) from each 6", 8 " , 10 "and 12" guns? "

Accordingly, there was no direct question about the distance at all, and one officer could talk about the distance at the moment the rangefinder began measuring it, another at the start of zeroing, and the third about the distance from which fire was opened to kill. At the same time, as you know, the lead ship of the detachment carried out the sighting, thus, for example, the same Malechkin could indicate the distance from the "Sisoy the Great" to the shield at the moment when the "Oslyabya" began sighting.

In general, in my opinion, the distances at which the 2nd Pacific squadron's artillery exercises were conducted were quite adequate.

But does this mean that the artillery exercises of the 2nd Pacific Squadron in Madagascar were carried out perfectly?

I do not think so.

The fact is that the ships of the 2nd Pacific fired in succession: the lead ship fired, and then transmitted the distance to the rest. In my opinion, this method of centralization did not provide sufficient practice for the fire control of other ships. In my opinion, ZP Rozhestvensky should pay more attention to individual ship firing, in which the senior artillery officer of each ship would determine the distance and carry out zeroing independently.

But you need to understand that the principle of concentrating fire on one target was almost fundamental in our fleet not only in those years, but also much later (remember the post-war methods of the Black Sea battleships). Such centralization, when the best artillerymen of "Suvorov" and "Oslyabi" would control the fire of the detachment, in theory could allow a very effective battle at medium range.

On the one hand, there were no examples of successful squadron firing of the 1st Pacific Squadron in the Russo-Japanese War, and there were no attempts to organize such firing.

On the other hand, it is quite possible that ZP Rozhdestvensky considered the detachment concentration of the detachment's fire on one target as a kind of surprise for Admiral Togo. A means to even out the odds a little in the coming battle.

However, the latter is nothing more than my guesses.

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Photos used:
http://tsushima.su
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  1. Comrade
    Comrade 3 September 2021 05: 20
    +5
    Very often, both ZP Rozhestvensky and our other admirals of the Russo-Japanese War era are accused of unwillingness to learn how to shoot at long distances, which is usually understood as a distance of 60–70 cables, or even more.

    In response, we will present claims of bias and bias.
    Everything is learned in comparison, so we can compare.
    Before us is a brigade of Black Sea battleships ("Eustathius", "John Chrysostom" and "Panteleimon"), which spent five to seven years on intensive training and practice shooting at distances unthinkable before the Russian-Japanese war.
    On "John Chrysostom" there was an optical base rangefinder from Carl Zeiss AG with a base of 18 feet (for comparison, the British battlecruisers in the Battle of Jutland had rangefinders with a base of nine feet).

    However, "the mountain gave birth to a mouse."
    In the battle at Cape Sarych on November 5 (18), 1914, the Russian battleships moved at a speed of 14-15 knots, the battle began at a distance of 40 cab., Then it decreased to 32,5-33,5 cab, after which it increased to 38- Room 39 The only hit to Goeben was achieved at a distance from 37 to 39 cab.
    During the battle, Eustathius fired 16 12 "shells, 14 8" shells and 19 6 "shells, achieving one hit on the Goeben. In total, during the battle, Russian ships fired 34 12 "shells, including" John Chrysostom "6 and" Three Saints "- 12." Rostislav "fired two shots from 10" and six from 6 "guns at" Breslau ”, but didn't get any hits.
    This means that the accuracy of the three battleships was 2,94%, although the distance by the standards of the Russian-Japanese war was so-so ...

    Thus, given the accuracy of the shooting of the Black Sea battleship detachment, we can say that at the outset of the Battle of Tsushima, the battleships of Rozhdestvensky fired more accurately.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      3 September 2021 07: 52
      +4
      Greetings, dear Comrade!
      Quote: Comrade
      However, "the mountain gave birth to a mouse."

      Yes, I would not say :))) With Goeben, everything is not simple there at all - during these 14 minutes of firefight he turned, and changed speed, and changed courses constantly, spinning in a frying pan ... In general, he was very successful in breaking the tip Eustathius. Goeben himself, by the way, never got to the Bosphorus when Eberhard used the same techniques - only he did not play with the course and speed, but with one speed.
      And the rest of the EBRs ... according to the shooting rules, they had to shoot according to the data received, even if they were sure that they were shooting incorrectly. This starart had to see and give appropriate corrections.
      That is, if they say 60 cables, you need to shoot at 60, even if you are sure that 40, then the starart will see the flight and adjust the fire
      1. Comrade
        Comrade 4 September 2021 02: 45
        +1
        Hello, dear Andrey!
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        With Goeben, everything is not simple there at all - during these 14 minutes of firefight, he turned, and changed speed, and changed courses constantly


        - With all due respect, deeply respected colleague, but the search for information that "Goeben" allegedly changed speed during the battle were not crowned with success.
        There is no information about this neither in G. Staff, nor in the ship's military diary (Kriegstagebuch des kreuzers "Goeben").
        All I could find was a battle cruiser war diary entry. done after the end of the battle:
        01.05 - Course 232 °, speed 18 knots


        - Eustathius opened fire at 12:20, hit two minutes later.
        Further in the war diary of the battle cruiser it says:
        12:24 pm - Goeben turns away as the enemy was barely visible and the lead enemy ship is fired further by stern heavy artillery. Distance 70-72 hectometers.

        Later the battlecruiser changed course several times, but also The Russian battleships did the same.

        Based on the results of the battle, it can be added that information that has become canonical in domestic sources, as if
        the enemy cruiser received 3 hits from 305 mm shells and 11 hits from 203 and 152 mm shells. It killed 105 and injured 59 people.

        do not correspond to reality, in fact, "Goeben", according to the war diary of the cruiser and the letters of Admiral Souchon, received only one hit from a 12 "shell, which killed twelve people.
        Later, several more sailors died in the hospital, poisoned by gases.
        1. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 4 September 2021 19: 17
          0
          Quote: Comrade
          but the search for information that "Goeben"

          I wonder why exactly "Goeben" and not "Goeben" as is customary in Russian descriptions? Then "Yavuz Sultan Selim" laughing
        2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          5 September 2021 09: 45
          +2
          Good afternoon, dear Comrade!
          Someday I will deal with the topic of the Black Sea battleships thoroughly, they also ask for a series of articles :)))) In the meantime, something happened to me with the CR, in which the Staff lies, I can not transfer it to the prompt for translation
    2. Dmitry Surzhikov
      Dmitry Surzhikov 3 September 2021 09: 40
      +3
      And "Goeben" also came with 14 nodes? :)
      Why, in this case, no one takes into account that he could
      a) walk much faster than ebr
      B) He was not part of the line (in comparison with the roar), he could change the course as convenient for him without looking back at the line

      The conditions of shooting at it and in the roar are completely different. It is not surprising that shooting at him was not so effective.
      1. Comrade
        Comrade 4 September 2021 04: 23
        +2
        Quote: Dmitry Surzhikov
        And "Goeben" also came with 14 nodes?

        Did "Mikasa" move with nine knots like Rozhdestvensky's battleships?
        Quote: Dmitry Surzhikov
        Why, in this case, no one takes into account that he could
        a) walk much faster than ebr

        So the same walked one and a half times faster than Rozhdestvensky.

        Quote: Dmitry Surzhikov
        The conditions of shooting at it and in the roar are completely different.

        Equipping the Black Sea and Tsushima battleships too.
        So, Eberhard had a rangefinder that Rozhestvensky never dreamed of. Rangefinders with such a base in the Battle of Jutland were available only on superdreadnoughts with 15 '' main guns. This is not the simplest FA 2 or 3, which distorted the readings even under the influence of sunlight.
  2. certero
    certero 3 September 2021 06: 28
    +2
    I don't understand why the author describes the 2% -3% accuracy as low.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      3 September 2021 07: 43
      +4
      Quote: certero
      I don't understand why the author describes the 2% -3% accuracy as low.

      In the battle in the Yellow Sea, the accuracy of the Japanese 305 mm exceeded 10%
  3. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 3 September 2021 06: 52
    +6
    Plus costs hi
    there were no examples of successful detachment firing of the 1st Pacific Squadron in the Russo-Japanese War, and there were no attempts to organize such firing.

    And where to get this, when the mode of service in reserve and the notorious economy keep the ships in the bases. But everyone knows that any theory requires confirmation by practice. Therefore, in order to really hit the enemy, you need to spend more than one day in real shooting and shoot not two or three shells per gun, but ammunition. Then the gunners would know in practice what they are worth, and the art officers would work out all their skills and theories in practice. Makarov would still be driving 1TOE, maybe with frequent exits, even under constant pressure from Togo, self-confidence would arise, but the story turned out differently request
    2 TOE had such time and opportunities during the trip. Therefore, a decent accuracy in the outset of the battle, as it were, confirms. But .... In battle, there are many other factors that affect the situation. Already disassembled.
    As always, reads in one breath. With u, i good drinks hi
    1. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 3 September 2021 13: 22
      +6
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Therefore, in order to really hit the enemy, you need to spend more than one day in real shooting and shoot not two or three shells per gun, but ammunition. Then...

      ... the life of the barrel will end after two firing :)))
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 3 September 2021 14: 00
        +3
        Uh-huh ... We took care of the resource of trunks in particular, but lost ships in general wink request
      2. rytik32
        rytik32 3 September 2021 14: 24
        +2
        Good afternoon, Ivan!
        And what, in your opinion, prevented you from training with barrels?
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 3 September 2021 17: 08
          +5
          Hello to you, too hi
          Quote: rytik32
          And what, in your opinion, prevented you from training with barrels?

          Agree, this is a completely different question :)))
          Answering it, I can only say one thing. The artillery preparation in the RIF during the RYAV was clearly insufficient. At the same time, I am not sure that intensive barrel firing would be a panacea. But it certainly didn't get any worse.
      3. Trapperxnumx
        Trapperxnumx 3 September 2021 15: 09
        0
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        ... the life of the barrel will end after two firing :)))

        After two ammunition loads?
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 3 September 2021 17: 09
          +5
          Ammunition 12 "guns in those days 60-80 shots. The resource of the barrel is about 200.
          1. unknown
            unknown 4 September 2021 12: 08
            0
            The Japanese also did not have the necessary stock of 12 "guns to replace the guns on all battleships.
            In addition, the cordite, which was used in the charges, led to a rapid burnout of the barrels and a loss of projectile speed and accuracy.
            Not to mention the fact that the very structure of the barrel made using the "wire technology" was less durable than the "German" one. Cases of destruction of barrels, in particular damage to the inner pipe, happened in the English fleet even before the Russo-Japanese war.
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 4 September 2021 13: 05
              +3
              You are what?
              A colleague Rurikovich proposed to shoot our guns, not Japanese ones.
              And they didn’t do such tricks ...
  4. rytik32
    rytik32 3 September 2021 12: 21
    +3
    Andrei, good afternoon!
    There are several questions and additions.

    The issue of increasing the firing range was raised by S.O.Makrov in telegram No. 256 of March 12, 1904, substantiating the need for successful firing of the Japanese. More than a year before Tsushima.

    I would like to clarify, by what criterion did you classify distances of more than 60-70 kabs as large ones? In the same instruction for 2TOE, the maximum distance was considered to be 40 cables.

    And at distances over 40 cab. the Japanese quite successfully fired at both ZhM and Tsushima. "Alexander" and "Borodino" were finished off precisely from distances of more than 40 cab.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      3 September 2021 13: 27
      +3
      Alex, welcome! hi
      Quote: rytik32
      The issue of increasing the firing range was raised by S.O.Makrov in telegram No. 256 of March 12, 1904, substantiating the need for successful firing of the Japanese. More than a year before Tsushima.

      Alexey, this is absolutely not the case. Makarov did not raise such a question. He demanded modern high-explosive shells for coastal batteries so that they could respond to long-range bombing by Japanese EBRs.
      When he Z.P. Rozhestvensky, in a very malicious form, gave a valuable instruction not to shoot at distances from which it was impossible to hit (by the way, Zinovy ​​Petrovich was right - they did not hit the "Fuji"), and GAU reported that further 55 cables effective shooting was impossible, Makarov replied that GAU "I did not grasp the essence of the matter" and that due to the hit in "Fuji" and the close fall of shells, the cross-fire of the Japanese EBR was thwarted.
      Those. Makarov did not come close to proposing to develop methods of shooting at distances of 80 cables, and did not offer to hastily teach them to the fleet. He tried to solve a completely local issue - not to allow the Japanese to shell the waters of Port Arthur with impunity, and nothing more.
      Quote: rytik32
      I would like to clarify, by what criterion did you classify distances of more than 60-70 kabs as large ones? In the same instruction for 2TOE, the maximum distance was considered to be 40 cables.

      And what criterion is needed here? The distance of 60-80 cables was great for those times. You can call it very large, or extremely large - what will change from this? It was not regulated by instructions, ours were not going to shoot at such distances.
      Quote: rytik32
      And at distances over 40 cab. the Japanese quite successfully fired at both ZhM and Tsushima. "Alexander" and "Borodino" were finished off precisely from distances of more than 40 cab.

      Alexey, the distance "more than 40 cables" is one thing. A distance of 60-80 cables is completely different. From a distance of "more than 40 cables" the Japanese managed to conduct effective fire - they hit 40-45 cables quite well in Tsushima. But at distances of 60-100 cables, at which they tried to fight in the 1st phase in the Yellow Sea, their shooting was not effective. Yes, they did, but they did not cause significant damage to the Russian squadron.
      "Alexander III" would hardly be "finished off by the Japanese." In fact, there are big doubts that Borodino died from being hit by Fuji, but even if this is so, the distance was within 45 cables.
      1. rytik32
        rytik32 3 September 2021 14: 23
        +3
        He demanded modern high-explosive projectiles for coastal batteries so that they could respond to long-range bombing by Japanese EBRDs.

        Without waiting for the results of the demands, it seems to have transferred 200 high-explosive shells from the fleet.
        Those. Makarov did not even come close to suggesting the development of shooting techniques at distances of 80 cables

        How is it? He worked on the issue of long-range throwing fire. I understand that he was solving a local problem, but the skills are developed. And look at the time frame for which Makarov worked on this issue.
        Alexey, the distance "more than 40 cables" is one thing

        Okay, I'll know that you were planning to refute my conclusions. I wrote about 40 cab. in his article.
        Yes, they did, but they did not cause significant damage to the Russian squadron.

        At the beginning of the battle, "Asama" and "Iwate" fired from considerable distances, "Iwate" at 2.27 even interrupted fire due to a long distance. I do not exclude that the distances could be less than 40 cab, but the zeroing was started with 8-inch guns.
        So, at about this time, before the Asama went down, she was able to inflict significant damage on Navarin with 8-inch shells: it caused a big fire (according to Japanese data) and flooding (according to ours). Can this damage be considered significant?
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          3 September 2021 14: 44
          +2
          Quote: rytik32
          How is it? He worked on the issue of long-range throwing fire.

          What Makarov worked on hardly has anything to do with long-range battles of ships. As far as I understand, our ships fired at the squares, changing the sight depending on which square the Japanese ship was in.
          Quote: rytik32
          And look at the time frame for which Makarov worked on this issue.

          So I still look at the effectiveness. Hits, then not a single one.
          Quote: rytik32
          Okay, I'll know that you were planning to refute my conclusions.

          Well, you can view this article as an opposition to your thesis.
          "Firstly, the experience of the long-range battle in the Yellow Sea was ignored, where the Poltava managed to hit the Yakumo from a distance of about 80 cab."

          Quote: rytik32
          At the beginning of the battle, "Asama" and "Iwate" fired from considerable distances, "Iwate" at 2.27 even interrupted fire due to a long distance. I do not exclude that the distances could be less than 40 cab, but the zeroing was started with 8-inch guns.

          You are now writing about the Tsushima battle. And I - about the experience that could prompt our sailors to prepare for battle at long distances to Tsushima. These are slightly different things.
          Quote: rytik32
          So, at about this time, before the Asama went down, she was able to inflict significant damage on Navarin with 8-inch shells: it caused a big fire (according to Japanese data) and flooding (according to ours).

          Our data is very different - there and 12-inch shells were indicated. And so - it is not clear from what distance, it is not clear whether Asama is, it is not known how seriously ...
          1. rytik32
            rytik32 3 September 2021 14: 51
            +3
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Our data is very different - there and 12-inch shells were indicated

            Yes, but not a single battleship fired at Navarin at that time.
            And so - it is not clear from what distance

            I will try to clarify later.
            it is unclear whether Asama

            In the database "Asama" it is written that "Asama"
          2. rytik32
            rytik32 3 September 2021 17: 29
            +3
            So I found the distances: about 8 km during shooting at Navarin

            By the way, the details of the hits that caused the big fires:
            one in front of the foremast.
            the second to the stern.
            Everything beats perfectly with the testimony of our
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              3 September 2021 21: 00
              +3
              Quote: rytik32
              So I found the distances: about 8 km during shooting at Navarin

              So 45 cables is a relatively short distance. Judging by the responses of the starart to shoot at such a 2TOE and learned
              1. rytik32
                rytik32 3 September 2021 22: 29
                +3
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                So 45 cables is a relatively short distance. Judging by the responses of the starart to shoot at such a 2TOE and learned

                And the bursts from their shells were well seen from such a distance?
                After all, there were no complaints?
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  4 September 2021 09: 29
                  +3
                  Quote: rytik32
                  And the bursts from their shells were well seen from such a distance?
                  After all, there were no complaints?

                  In the wonderful conditions of Madagascar - yes
                  1. rytik32
                    rytik32 4 September 2021 10: 44
                    +2
                    But from the report on the battle at Ulsan
                    At 5 hours 12 minutes on "Iwate" there was an explosion in the bow; at 5 o'clock. 14 minutes the same explosion on "Adzumo" Apparently these explosions were made 8 dm. Our shells, since 6 inches, did not reach, when the distance between the detachments decreased to 50 cables, it was clearly seen that either the rangefinders give incorrect distances, or the firing tables did not correspond to the range of the shell on the "Russia", this difference all the time reached from 3-5 cables.

                    With 50 kabs, we saw perfectly the bursts on a foggy morning in the Korea Strait.
                    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      4 September 2021 11: 24
                      +1
                      Quote: rytik32
                      With 50 kabs, we saw perfectly the bursts on a foggy morning in the Korea Strait.

                      No question, please quote the excerpt from the report that says this. If anything, let me remind you that the Russian 152-mm guns did not fire even at 5.18
                      1. rytik32
                        rytik32 4 September 2021 12: 24
                        +1
                        I have already quoted.
                        Why repeat it?
                      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        4 September 2021 17: 42
                        +2
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I have already quoted.

                        I'm afraid you did not understand what you are quoting. I repeat, they opened fire from 152 mm later, so no one could see them. I am already silent about the reliability of hits
      2. 27091965
        27091965 3 September 2021 21: 17
        +2
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        , distance "more than 40 cables" is one thing. A distance of 60-80 cables is completely different.


        The distance of battle for that time was determined in 1900-1901 by the British 7500 yards. They considered it a mistake to shoot at a distance exceeding this value, due to the small possibility of hitting the target.

        In general, in my opinion, the distances at which the 2nd Pacific squadron's artillery exercises were conducted were quite adequate.


        Perhaps these artillery exercises were adequate, but a few firings do not determine the general level of training of the fleet. In specialized editions of the above period of time, we can find descriptions of shooting practice in different countries;

        " Shooting was carried out from 12 and 6 inch guns, at a speed of 15 knots at a distance of 6000 yards at an angle of 45 degrees to the shield for 4 minutes, the distance was determined by a rangefinder. 4 shots were fired from a 12 "cannon and 25 shots from a 6" cannon. The shield was hit by a 1-12 inch shell and 4 six inch. "1901.

        To assess the training of artillerymen, the results of training firing over several years are necessary, but they are not.
        Percy Scott, in one of his works, described a case when experienced and trained gunners could not hit the shield during "prize shooting", and at a distance of 1500 yards, they had to stop firing in order to establish the cause. Therefore, it is impossible to judge the quality of the training of gunners by just a few firings, moreover, they did not have constant training.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          3 September 2021 22: 05
          +4
          Quote: 27091965i
          The distance of battle for that time was determined in 1900-1901 by the British 7500 yards.

          That's roughly 37,5 cables (artillery)
          Quote: 27091965i
          Perhaps these artillery exercises were adequate, but a few firings do not determine the general level of training of the fleet.

          So the general level, pre-war, was limp by all four - but, on the other hand, who did not limp?
          Quote: 27091965i
          Shooting was carried out from 12 and 6 inch guns, at a speed of 15 knots at a distance of 6000 yards at an angle of 45 degrees to the shield for 4 minutes, the distance was determined by a rangefinder.

          This is firing without zeroing according to the rangefinder data.
          Quote: 27091965i
          Therefore, it is impossible to judge the quality of the training of gunners by just a few firings.

          I don’t do that. I am examining the specific issue of 2TOE readiness - it fired at Tsushima quite well, and I just see the reason in the rather intense, by the standards of the RIF, preparation and shooting at relatively long distances near Madagascar hi
          1. 27091965
            27091965 3 September 2021 22: 42
            +2
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            That's roughly 37,5 cables (artillery)


            For cruisers armed with 234 mm guns, they determined the effective range of impact of shells on armored targets of 5000 yards.

            This is firing without zeroing according to the rangefinder.


            This was the point of such firing, in 4 minutes to determine the distance, zero in and fire the maximum number of shells at the target. Not everyone succeeded, but such shooting was in the English fleet, there was also a standard with a time interval of 2 minutes. This is how they trained.

            I don’t do that. I am examining the specific issue of 2TOE readiness - it fired at Tsushima quite well, and I just see the reason in the rather intense, by the standards of the RIF, preparation and shooting at relatively long distances near Madagascar


            Dear Andrey, if we speak in military language, and not in historical language, then it will sound something like this;

            " At the beginning of the battle, being under massive enemy fire, the command staff showed confusion and passivity for this reason, the general leadership of the entrusted units was lost. At the same time, the personnel showed heroism, but could not use in battle all the knowledge gained in the exercises, for the reasons indicated above."

            Military language, it is dry, but it indicates the reasons for the defeat or victory.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              4 September 2021 09: 35
              +3
              Quote: 27091965i
              This was the point of such firing, in 4 minutes to determine the distance, zero in and fire the maximum number of shells at the target.

              Ok thanks
              Quote: 27091965i
              At the beginning of the battle, being under massive enemy fire, the command staff showed confusion and passivity for this reason, the general leadership of the entrusted units was lost.

              This is definitely not about 2TOE. Neither confusion nor passivity was observed there
              1. 27091965
                27091965 4 September 2021 10: 58
                +3
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                This is definitely not about 2 TOEs. Neither confusion nor passivity was observed there


                Once I read a French naval theorist, published in 1906 or 1907, I don’t remember exactly. He concluded that Admiral Kh. Togo wanted and strove for this battle, Admiral ZP Rozhdestvensky did not want a battle, he wanted to break through, and not conduct a general battle, although it was clear that there was nowhere to go from him. Therefore, he lost it even before the battle began.
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  4 September 2021 11: 12
                  +2
                  Quote: 27091965i
                  Once I read a French naval theorist, edition of 1906 or 1907, I don't remember exactly

                  Then you need to understand that the aforementioned theorist did not have at his disposal even a quarter of the information that we have.
                  Quote: 27091965i
                  ZP Rozhestvensky did not want a battle, he wanted to break through, and not to conduct a general battle, although it was clear that there was nowhere to go from him. Therefore, he lost it even before the battle began.

                  Such psychological studies are completely meaningless, since Rozhestvensky did not believe that he could go to Vladivostok without a fight.
                  1. unknown
                    unknown 4 September 2021 12: 11
                    -1
                    Nevertheless, he did not prepare for battle.
                    Rather, to the hike.
          2. rytik32
            rytik32 3 September 2021 22: 45
            +2
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            I'm examining the specific issue of 2TOE readiness - she shot at Tsushima's tie-up pretty well

            Did the whole squadron shoot well? Where such confidence?
            and the reason I see is in the rather intense, by the standards of the RIF, preparation and shooting at relatively long distances near Madagascar

            Shooting near Madagascar just showed a very low level of training
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              4 September 2021 09: 42
              +3
              Quote: rytik32
              Did the whole squadron shoot well? Where such confidence?

              No, not all, apparently the 5 newest EBRs fired better than the rest. Although it is difficult to say something for sure.
              Quote: rytik32
              Shooting near Madagascar just showed a very low level of training

              And you give Kostenko in confirmation? :))) Well, well :)
              P.A. Vyrubov
              The first shooting was poor, but the second and especially the third were great. It's obvious how we need practice. The 12-inch turrets fired especially well: the bow, for example, laid 6 out of 5 shells, so the admiral of Togo would have to sign for receiving them in full
              1. rytik32
                rytik32 4 September 2021 09: 56
                +3
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                No, not all, apparently the 5 newest EBRs fired better than the rest

                You can safely delete "Eagle" from this list. They shot at the rangefinder, not seeing their bursts. What can be the result? Only if by accident.
                And you give Kostenko in confirmation? :))) Well, well :)
                P.A. Vyrubov

                Vyrubov wrote a letter and could easily lie in order to reassure his relatives.
                But Rozhestvensky called these teachings a waste of shells. During the last firing sessions "Eagle" fired 1 12-inch and 2 6-inch rounds - then these firing was interrupted. Even for half the shooting, this cannot be counted. wassat
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  4 September 2021 10: 16
                  +3
                  Quote: rytik32
                  "Eagle" can be safely deleted from this list.

                  Only in the Mikasa episode. First. Because in the future, even the Japanese celebrated his good shooting, even when they knocked out an MSA (K. Abo)
                  Quote: rytik32
                  Vyrubov wrote a letter and could easily lie in order to reassure his relatives.

                  Yes. Rozhdestvensky cheekhvostit in all the cracks, and then suddenly decided to lie :)
                  Quote: rytik32
                  But Rozhestvensky called these teachings a waste of shells.

                  And Rozhestvensky, in general, almost never praised anyone. Such a leadership style. Silence is the best praise :)
                  1. rytik32
                    rytik32 4 September 2021 10: 25
                    +2
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Only in the Mikasa episode.

                    But was the situation of "Borodino" and "Alexander" much better in that episode? Did they manage to aim or also saw the wall of bursts from the fire of "Oslyabi" and "Suvorov"?
                    Yes. Rozhdestvensky cheekhvostit in all the cracks, and then suddenly decided to lie :)

                    Well, this is a letter. For the sake of a beautiful word, it is not a sin to lie. And Kostenka testified in court - this is a completely different degree of responsibility.
                    And Rozhestvensky, in general, almost never praised anyone. Such a leadership style. Silence is the best praise :)

                    So where are the results of the shooting? Why are they not ??? Why are the senior art officers silent about how many times they hit the shield? Nothing to boast about ???
                    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      4 September 2021 11: 09
                      +2
                      Quote: rytik32
                      But was the situation of "Borodino" and "Alexander" much better in that episode? Did they manage to aim or also saw the wall of bursts from the fire of "Oslyabi" and "Suvorov"?

                      They formed it when they switched to fire to kill :)))
                      Quote: rytik32
                      Well, this is a letter. For the sake of a beautiful word, it is not a sin to lie. And Kostenka testified in court - this is a completely different degree of responsibility.

                      Which one? :) And why then did Kostenko later write
                      "Oslyabya", as before, beat artistically: on the second shot from a distance in the 25 cable - right into the shield.

                      All of you lie. One Kostenko, who was caught lying 100 times, speaks the truth :)
                      Quote: rytik32
                      So where are the results of the shooting? Why are they not ???

                      Results - in "Mikasa", in the first minutes of the Tsushima battle
                      Quote: rytik32
                      Why are senior art officers silent about how many times they hit the shield? Nothing to boast about ???

                      And who asked them about it? The question was asked, I repeat
                      "What practical firing were fired by the ships of the 2nd squadron and how many shots were fired with real shells (and not with training barrels) from each 6", 8 ", 10" and 12 "guns?"

                      At this, the same Malechkin noted, for example,
                      In general, the results of the shooting in Madagascar were bearable and, in my personal conviction, they would be excellent if the heads of artillery training had clear and definite ideas about the design of optical sights and instruments of Barr and Stroud
                      1. rytik32
                        rytik32 4 September 2021 12: 10
                        +1
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        They formed it when they switched to fire to kill :)))

                        How many sighting shots did they fire before going to defeat? As many as two? laughing
                        And why then did Kostenko later write

                        So he wrote about the accuracy of "Eagle".
                        The first hits in “Mikasa” are most likely from “Oslyabi”.
                        And who asked them about it? The question was

                        They didn't ask about the distance either. wink
                      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        4 September 2021 17: 45
                        +2
                        Quote: rytik32
                        How many sighting shots did they fire before going to defeat? As many as two?

                        "Eagle", if forgotten, opened fire a little later than the others. By the way, you proved that much later
                        Quote: rytik32
                        As many as two?

                        Maybe they shot from the first, who knows?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        So he wrote about the accuracy of "Eagle".

                        Then why quote his words in relation to the squadron?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The first hits in “Mikasa” are most likely from “Oslyabi”.

                        Not from "Suvorov" anymore? Good:)
                        Quote: rytik32
                        They didn't ask about the distance either.

                        Therefore, many did not say anything about her.
                      3. rytik32
                        rytik32 4 September 2021 20: 28
                        +1
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Maybe they shot from the first, who knows?

                        Krzhizhanovsky knows.
                        With "Suvorov" there were two sighting, which did not give a result. Therefore, the distance was not transferred to the rest of the ships. But they switched to a runaway, which made it impossible to zero in "Alexander", "Borodino" and "Eagle".
                      4. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        5 September 2021 09: 59
                        +1
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Krzhizhanovsky knows.

                        Come on :)))) I don't see anything like that in Krzhizhanovsky's testimony. It looks like your next free interpretation of the material. Secondly, even if this were so, his testimony has nothing to do with the shooting of Borodino or Alexander and cannot and cannot.
                      5. rytik32
                        rytik32 5 September 2021 22: 05
                        -1
                        And this is not from the testimony
                      6. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        6 September 2021 07: 39
                        +1
                        Quote: rytik32
                        And this is not from the testimony

                        And, excuse me, so what?
                      7. Fiona Amberskaya
                        Fiona Amberskaya 24 September 2021 12: 00
                        0
                        Something I am tormented by vague doubts ... Some sources write that the 10 "cannons were complete bullshit and under Shantung the percentage of hits from them was twice lower than from twelve-inch guns, but here they write that Oslyabya shot artistically. The contradiction, however: Oslyabya hits, Peresvet and Pobeda sink shells into the sea.
                      8. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        24 September 2021 12: 40
                        0
                        Quote: Fiona Amberskaya
                        There is a contradiction, however: Oslyabya hits, Peresvet and Pobeda sink the shells into the sea.

                        There is no contradiction. The small number of 10-inch hits at Shantung is not necessarily related to the quality of the guns. Moreover, some of the hits that the Japanese counted as 305 mm in fact could be 254 mm
                      9. Fiona Amberskaya
                        Fiona Amberskaya 24 September 2021 14: 21
                        0
                        OK, then I have another question: why did they think that shooting with BBs at a distance of more than 20 kbt was ineffective? The battleship does not only consist of a citadel, it has plates of the upper belt, lightly armored casemates. Again, at a distance of more than 40 kbt, when the possibility of a ricochet on the water is excluded, a missile that has fallen undershot can dive down and pierce the side below the armor (this is what happened with Retvizan and Slava).
                      10. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        24 September 2021 14: 43
                        0
                        Quote: Fiona Amberskaya
                        OK, then I have another question: why did they think that shooting with BBs at a distance of more than 20 kbt was ineffective?

                        Does not penetrate armor :)))))
                        Quote: Fiona Amberskaya
                        After all, the battleship not only consists of a citadel, it has plates of the upper belt, lightly armored casemates

                        The fact of the matter is that the area of ​​these casemates / belts is relatively small, and at a distance of more than 15-20 kbt, you can shoot at the ship as a whole, targeting a separate part is almost unrealistic.
                        That is, firing a BB at such distances, you will inflict damage behind light armor, but you will fall into the main armor belt - nothing will happen, you will fall into an unarmored side or superstructures - nothing will happen. Since the area of ​​the latter is much larger than what is booked and what you can pierce, land mines are preferable
                        Quote: Fiona Amberskaya
                        Again, at a distance of over 40 kbt, when the possibility of a ricochet on the water is excluded, a projectile that has fallen shortly can dive down and pierce the side below the armor

                        In battle, the retvisan got into the waterline, without a dive. And Slava received such a projectile from a dreadnought, which fired under 100 cables, where the angle of fall of the projectile into the water is located. At RYAV distances, one would rather expect that the 305-mm would not dive under the water, but would be reflected from it and fall into the side of the ship (the angle of incidence is small)
                      11. Fiona Amberskaya
                        Fiona Amberskaya 24 September 2021 14: 59
                        0
                        In the battle, Retvizan got hit without a dive, but BEFORE the battle (from siege artillery) just with a dive. There, and the caliber was ridiculous, but because of this single hole, Witgeft allowed, in case of emergency, to leave the system and return to Arthur.
                      12. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        24 September 2021 15: 37
                        0
                        Quote: Fiona Amberskaya
                        In the battle, Retvizan received a hit without a dive, but BEFORE the battle (from siege artillery) just with a dive

                        This does not count - we are talking about why armor-piercing was not fired in battles between ships. And fortress artillery, with its mortar ballistics, you can shoot BB
                      13. Fiona Amberskaya
                        Fiona Amberskaya 24 September 2021 15: 55
                        0
                        Unfortunately, I am not on friendly terms with a computer and I cannot simulate the behavior of shells of different shapes, masses and calibers when they hit the water at a given distance. Also, I cannot simulate the penetration distance of the upper belt with a thickness of 127-152 mm with 10-12 BBs. "And it would be interesting to test the theory according to which the average Japanese artillery is disabled not by direct hitting a small casemate, but by breaking through the armor under it with the accompanying damage to the mechanisms for feeding shells from the cellars.
                      14. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        24 September 2021 17: 20
                        0
                        Quote: Fiona Amberskaya
                        Unfortunately, I am not on friendly terms with a computer and I cannot simulate the behavior of shells of different shapes, masses and caliber when they hit the water at a given combat distance.

                        And it is not necessary - ricochets happened periodically, this is a fact. Remember the same Tsarevich. A projectile could also hit under water, but this is rare, and taking into account the fact that in a combat situation the main belt mainly covered the underwater part ... the whole war worked out
                        Quote: Fiona Amberskaya
                        Also, I cannot simulate the penetration distance of the upper belt with a thickness of 127-152 mm with BBs in 10-12 "

                        Why? :))) See the consequences of real hits of Russian shells - even high-explosive ones often had a deceleration fuse, so they could pierce light armor. Yes, and without breaking through, sometimes they flew into the casemates. Sometimes the Japanese were unlucky, sometimes such hits did almost no harm
                        Quote: Fiona Amberskaya
                        And so it would be interesting to test the theory according to which the average artillery of the Japanese is disabled not by direct hitting a small casemate, but by breaking through the armor under it with concomitant damage to the mechanisms for feeding shells from the cellars.

                        The Japanese stockpiled ammunition at the guns so as not to carry them far. It let them down once.
                  2. Saxahorse
                    Saxahorse 4 September 2021 19: 24
                    0
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Because in the future, even the Japanese celebrated his good shooting, even when he was knocked out by the MSA (K. Abo)

                    Aren't you tired of telling tales about SUAO battleships? Borodintsy had nothing but a pair of dials. At Borodino and Alexander even the salvo alarm system was dismantled on the slipway.
          3. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 3 September 2021 23: 33
            -1
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            I am examining the specific issue of 2TOE readiness - she shot at Tsushima's set-up quite well, and I just see the reason in the rather intense, by the standards of the RIF, preparation and shooting at relatively long distances near Madagascar

            Suvorov shot well and nothing more. We have already found out that the shooting at Madagascar was cut and defective. Only 2.5 practical firing for the squadron core, battleships. Moreover, in rather primitive conditions. Rozhestvensky, in addition to ignorance in managing the squadron, was accused of neglecting combat training.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              4 September 2021 10: 31
              +3
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Suvorov shot well and nothing more.

              From the lectures of K. Abo (in Tsushima - senior artilleryman Mikasa)
              In the first stage of the Tsushima battle, the Russian squadron, which opened heavy fire from about 6500 yards, inflicted relatively heavy damage on Mikasa in just a few minutes: the main topmast was shot down, one 6-inch and two 12-pounder guns were temporarily disabled , many holes were made in pipes, etc. But as soon as our ships opened fire, and the accuracy of hits began to gradually increase, the strength of enemy fire began to decrease accordingly.
              And in the final stage of the same battle, when the main detachment of Togo was fighting the enemy squadron, many of our ships concentrated their fire on the lead Borodino, and then the Oryol, the next ship in the ranks, began to effectively hit the Mikasa. Some shells exploded, hitting the side, others fell into the water at the very side, so much so that the roof of the navigator's cabin (Monkey Island) was soaked several times with fountains of spray, causing significant inconvenience, since it was often necessary to wipe the lenses of rangefinders and binoculars flooded with water. Because of this, "Mikasa" transferred fire from "Borodino" to "Oryol", after 10 - 15 minutes of firing, the "Eagle" fire began to gradually weaken, and after that there was no longer a shower from the fountains of splashes, or the hits of shells.
              Truly, the best way to protect yourself is to destroy the enemy's weapons.
              1. Saxahorse
                Saxahorse 4 September 2021 19: 02
                +1
                You would think Abo had an artillery radar that allows him to determine exactly who is shooting at Mikasa at the moment. smile

                The fact that the first 15 minutes of the battle continuously hit Mikasa, the same indisputable fact that after the suppression of Suvorov and Oslyabi the hits stopped.
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  4 September 2021 19: 10
                  +2
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  The fact that the first 15 minutes of the battle continuously hit Mikasa, the same indisputable fact that after the suppression of Suvorov and Oslyabi the hits stopped.

                  There is also the fact that Mikasa went ahead and it became impossible to concentrate fire on him. Especially considering that the smoke from the fires on Suvorov interfered with other ships
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  You would think Abo had an artillery radar that allows him to determine exactly who is shooting at Mikasa at the moment.

                  Actually, yes, in the evening it was already easy. And you, as always, missed the most important thing - after the suppression of the "Eagle" by fire, the hits and close falls at Mikasa stopped.
                  1. Saxahorse
                    Saxahorse 4 September 2021 19: 30
                    -1
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    - after the suppression of the "Eagle" by fire, the hits and close falls at Mikasa stopped.

                    In general, I missed the moment when the Eagle fired only at Mikasa .. As we remember, after 10-15 minutes, according to your own words, he transferred fire to the Kamimura brigade. Which you also confused. lol
              2. rytik32
                rytik32 4 September 2021 20: 33
                0
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                But as soon as our ships opened fire, and the accuracy of hits began to gradually increase, the strength of enemy fire began to decrease accordingly.

                A similar phrase can be found in the Mikasa database by his own authorship just before the Japanese flagship stopped getting hit.
                Just don't you wonder, whose fire could suppress Mikasa?
                And in general, did the Japanese shoot at "Alexander" until 14:25 (yap)? on "Borodino"? on "Eagle"?
                In my opinion, only for you it still remains a mystery, from which ship the main hit "Mikasa" was in the outset of the battle.
        2. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 3 September 2021 23: 28
          0
          Quote: 27091965i
          The distance of battle for that time was determined in 1900-1901 by the British 7500 yards.

          The Japanese, in the instructions, in the same way, the beginning of the sighting was supposed to start from 7000 meters. (the same 38 kbl.)
  5. Mooh
    Mooh 3 September 2021 13: 18
    +2
    But the previous article of the cycle does not let me go. I categorically cannot understand how to shoot along a hinged trajectory if you do not have data on your own roll and differential? In the sense that I understand how to shoot. You expose the correction for the distance in the sight and shoot as a direct fire. I don't understand how to interpret the results. The spread should be a kilometer there - a kilometer here. What kind of zeroing can we even talk about if the position of the gun changes from shot to shot?
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      3 September 2021 13: 29
      +2
      Quote: MooH
      But the previous article of the cycle does not let me go. I categorically cannot understand how to shoot along a hinged trajectory.

      so it was not very much hinged, at those distances :)))
      Quote: MooH
      You expose a correction for the distance in the sight and shoot as a direct fire

      But you don't just shoot, but at a certain moment when you think that the roll = 0 or when the roll is maximum, then you expose an additional correction for the roll
  6. 27091965
    27091965 3 September 2021 13: 37
    +2
    Good afternoon.
    Dear Andrey. A very interesting view, but I find it difficult to agree with certain points. This applies to coastal artillery and the availability of long-range firing data in the fleets of other countries. I will write a commentary on this issue later, since there is a lot of information and I want to put it together in a smaller volume.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      3 September 2021 14: 05
      +1
      Quote: 27091965i
      I will write a commentary on this issue later, since there is a lot of information and I want to put it together in a smaller volume.

      Thank you in advance, dear Igor! hi
  7. certero
    certero 3 September 2021 13: 48
    -1
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    the battle in the Yellow Sea, the accuracy of the Japanese 305 mm exceeded 10%

    It would be interesting to take a look at the documents you are relying on in this conclusion.
    They did not fire there directly ...
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      3 September 2021 14: 03
      +2
      Quote: certero
      It would be interesting to take a look at the documents you are relying on in this conclusion.

      Everything is very simple - the consumption of Japanese 254-305-mm shells is known - 603 305-mm and 33 - 254-mm, and in total - 636 shells. And the number of hits on Russian ships is known. V. Polomoshnov counted 58 hits of these calibers, other calculations - 65, I will have to sit down and count myself. But the order of the numbers is about 10%
      Quote: certero
      They did not fire there directly ...

      For the most part, they opened fire with 305-mm only to kill, they were fired from them only at a very long distance, where 152-mm was not reached. This minimized the consumption of projectiles.
  8. demiurg
    demiurg 3 September 2021 14: 55
    -1
    Why is Tsushima so exciting?
    This battle did not decide anything. Even if the entire 2TOE in full force and without damage had come to Vladivostok, she would not have been able to interrupt the supply of Japanese troops. It doesn't matter what kind of damage the Japanese would have suffered. They have a base a few hours away, with repair facilities, coal, ammunition.
    Could have saved the Northern Sea Route or the Transsib, for the transfer of the regular army.
    And I would venture to send battleships and armored cruisers north. V. V. Konetsky mentioned in his stories the passage of the SMP minesweepers from Murmansk to Kamchatka.
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 3 September 2021 15: 58
      -1
      Have you heard such a thing - "Goal of prestige"?
      So it is with Tsushima.
      They knew that Port Arthur had "fallen", but the combat fleet was "driven" to Vladivostok.
      "It is not prestigious" for the royal dynasty of the "Great Russians" to lose the naval war to "some yellow-faced devils" ...
      As it is written in the song about the cruiser "Varyag" ...
      1. demiurg
        demiurg 3 September 2021 16: 20
        -1
        A goal of prestige, this is a landing operation on Hokkaido of the Russian army, under the cover of a whole 2TOE + the remnants of the Vladivostok cruiser detachment.
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 3 September 2021 16: 37
          +1
          This is your opinion about the "goal of prestige"!
          At that time, it was considered "a little" differently!
    2. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 3 September 2021 17: 15
      +3
      And the minesweepers also drove destroyers with submarines, moreover, both there and back. But the times were a little different. And it's not just about Soviet power. It's just that hydrographic services have appeared there, communications have stepped far ahead, and so on, and so on ...
    3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      3 September 2021 22: 07
      +3
      Quote: demiurg
      Could have saved the Northern Sea Route or the Transsib, for the transfer of the regular army.

      The Northern Sea Route is unrealistic, there and in later years the escort of warships turned into that circus with bells. And then it is simply unrealistic to conduct a squadron there.
      And the Transsib was.
    4. unknown
      unknown 4 September 2021 12: 21
      0
      It is exciting because the Japanese did not have real technical superiority.
      Both sides had twelve ships in line.
      The Japanese had only four squadron battleships.
      Of these, one is modern, two are almost modern (harvey armor) and one is outdated, both according to the booking scheme, and in artillery, and in speed (in the years of the RYAV, a maximum of 15 knots).
      Plus eight ships, which are usually called armored cruisers, and which in terms of armament (203mm, projectile weight 93,5 kg.) Did not correspond either to the ships of the line (battleships), or in terms of speed (15-17 knots for a long time) to cruisers.
  9. Denimax
    Denimax 3 September 2021 15: 30
    +2
    Well, they touched on the moment when the Japanese already had experience in adjusting from the outside. By the second battle they had enough time to think it over and put it into practice. It is good because it does not require any technical innovations, only the organization of work, and at the same time it is accurate and reliable. And the case is really unique, the squadron goes to the breakthrough and they are waiting for it prepared.
  10. 27091965
    27091965 3 September 2021 16: 20
    +3
    The fact is that the bulk of the coastal artillery could not fire beyond 8 versts (8 m or 480 cables), and only the newest 46-mm guns - about 254 cables. The thing is that the latter had at their disposal only armor-piercing and cast-iron shells.


    According to the views of that time, coastal batteries did not need to shoot further than 8000 meters. All calculations of the protection of the guns were guided by a distance of 4000 meters. It was believed that enemy ships would start firing from a distance of 4000-5000 meters, gradually reducing it to 1500-2000 meters. Such conclusions were drawn on the basis of the Spanish-American War. It was also believed that the enemy could produce "harassing fire" from a distance of up to 10000 meters. This conclusion was made on the basis of the experience of two days of shelling by the American battleship "Indiana" in Santiago de Cuba, 45 pieces of 8 inch shells were fired. The shelling was, in principle, considered successful, the machine tools were not damaged, although only a few houses were destroyed as a result of the shelling. For this reason, they were not much worried about firing coastal batteries at long distances. At the same time, it was believed that medium-caliber guns and mortars would be the most effective, large-caliber guns with a flat firing trajectory, were, so to speak, an effective addition.
  11. sevtrash
    sevtrash 3 September 2021 18: 37
    0
    Interestingly, is there in the archives of the Ministry of Defense or specialized libraries some kind of analytical review, conclusion, work of the Navy professionals on the level of training of the RI fleet in general and the Pacific fleets for the period of the Russian-Japanese war, as well as the reasons for the defeat at Tsushima? A fairly significant episode in the history of the Russian fleet, it cannot be that over the past hundred years since that time there has been no professional analysis.
    Here, as it were, everything is an amateur version, although, thanks to several authors, primarily Andrei from Chelyabinsk, the picture of the battle becomes more saturated with various facts and arguments. In fact, as the generalizing phrase was said a hundred years ago, "they did not know how to shoot and there was no move" - ​​everything remained the same, nevertheless the details are interesting.
    The author abandoned his previously fostered position that Rozhdestvensky introduced and taught long-range shooting and finally took into account the testimonies of the participants in the battle. Which cannot but rejoice, because now the main driver of this topic is on this site and I would like articles from him based on reliable sources.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      3 September 2021 20: 57
      +1
      Quote: sevtrash
      The author abandoned his previously fostered position that Rozhdestvensky introduced and taught long-range shooting

      A strange observation. There I cited the opinions of three starart that they were shooting at long (by those standards) distances.
      1. sevtrash
        sevtrash 4 September 2021 11: 45
        0
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        A strange observation. There I cited the opinions of three starart that they were shooting at long (by those standards) distances.

        Well, that was before - your article a few years ago, comments to it - Myths of Tsushima. Part 3.https: //topwar.ru/77654-mify-cusimy-chast-3.html#comment-id-4676116

        "... Quote: sevtrash
        1) Rozhestvensky introduced an advanced gunnery training system at 2TOE. - what are you talking about?!!"

        Your Answer:
        "... for example - about shooting exercises at 60-70 kbt .. About other approaches to organizing exercises than it was customary. About the colossal expenditure of shells and cartridges for artillery exercises - and so on and so forth ..."
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          4 September 2021 17: 49
          +1
          Quote: sevtrash
          Rozhestvensky introduced an advanced gunnery training system at 2TOE. - what are you talking about?!!"

          About the advanced system introduced by Rozhdestvensky. His ships fired much further during the exercise than in the RIF before. And .d.
    2. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 3 September 2021 23: 46
      +2
      Quote: sevtrash
      In fact, as the generalizing phrase was said a hundred years ago, "they did not know how to shoot and there was no move" - ​​everything remained the same, nevertheless the details are interesting.

      The details are known just as a whole sea! This very phrase, "they did not know how to shoot" and "mediocre maneuvers" sounded for a reason. And this was not at all Novikov-Priboy with the Bolsheviks invented, as some of our colleagues from Chelyabinsk and even from Canada are periodically trying to say here. lol

      This conclusion was made by the very Investigative Commission to clarify the circumstances of the Tsushima battle, appointed on December 19, 1905 by order of the Naval Department, chaired by Vice Admiral Giltebrandt. By the decree of the sovereign the emperor, by the way. Apparently for the same reason, the results of the investigation were immediately classified as secret, providing for access only for senior officers of the fleet.

      In fact, real conclusions were drawn a hundred years ago, and on the basis of these conclusions, serious work began on a sharp increase in the level of training of Russian sailors, especially in shooting. The fact that today, once again, for the hundredth time, we are forced to disassemble Rozhestvensky's imaginary exploits is the merit of an exceptionally narrow club of his devoted fans.
      1. A_Mazkov
        A_Mazkov 4 September 2021 00: 05
        0
        Although I like "Reckoning" no less than "Tsushima", I agree with you!
  12. PPD
    PPD 3 September 2021 19: 46
    +3
    our towers did not have any catastrophic flaws, it was about the need for some improvement, but who and when would have done it during the war?

    Well, then there was no one to do the revision. request
    Favorite economy in its merciless splendor.
    The need to shoot at long range is not postknowledge; it is foresight. Not so difficult. True, you need to try different options and think. The truth is, and you can ponder before resignation. And then there are rumors that Jessen was dismissed for testing shells.
    I came across a sign about Mikasa's shooting with cartridges, not even small-caliber shells - with a distance and% of hits. And what about this in 2 squadron, up to 1 too? what
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      3 September 2021 20: 58
      +2
      Quote: PPD
      I came across a sign about Mikasa's shooting with cartridges, not even small-caliber shells - with a distance and% of hits. And what about this in 2 squadron, up to 1 too?

      The second barrel firing was carried out, although not as much as we would like
      1. PPD
        PPD 4 September 2021 10: 33
        0
        I carried out the same way as I worked on the rebuilding.
        The documents say, right uh.
        I read and everything is happy inside - everything is written so convincingly.
        According to the memoirs, it is completely sour.
        But this is an eternal topic. I have here Bukhvostov's statements before the campaign (unless this is his personal mood) with the lack of purposeful, regular work to improve combat training is surprising. Not suicides, after all.
  13. cat Rusich
    cat Rusich 3 September 2021 21: 43
    +1
    Victory Day over Japan
    on September 3
    Victory Day over Japan
    Happy Samurai Winners !!
    soldier
    1. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 3 September 2021 23: 53
      +1
      Since September 3rd!
      1. cat Rusich
        cat Rusich 4 September 2021 00: 06
        -1
        [quote = Saxahorse] Since September 3rd! [/ quote
  14. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 4 September 2021 00: 05
    +3
    Oddly enough, there are practically no complaints about this article of our mutual friend, Andrey from Chelyabinsk. smile

    Indeed, for battleships of the RYA era, shooting at a distance of 60-80 meters can be considered very ineffective. In the battle on July 28 in the Yellow Sea, Togo perhaps conducted a full-scale experiment trying to realize his technical superiority at that time in the form of optical sights on all guns. The 1st TOE at that time had only mechanical ones, even with 12 "guns. The advantage is serious, further 30-40 kbl in the mechanical sight the target is almost invisible.

    In part, I achieved that result, but the result did not suit him at all. Individual hits clearly could not stop the squadron going for a breakthrough. Therefore, Togo drastically changed the pattern of the battle and in the second phase went towards rapprochement. However, even 30-40 kbl was not a short distance for the Russian fleet, the telescopic sight gave a serious advantage of 30 kbl to the Japanese. This is what we see in the results of the shooting, in the number of hits.

    In general, I agree with Andrey that the sometimes appearing claims to poor shooting at 60-80 kbl were excessive for that time (not counting coastal artillery). However, the claims to poor shooting at a distance of 30-40 kbl are already fully justified. Here they should have at least somehow hit even with mechanical sights like in the 1st TOE. Well, the 2nd TOE with 8x optics is a shame to smear at such distances.
    1. Maxim G
      Maxim G 4 September 2021 16: 54
      +2
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Oddly enough, there are practically no complaints about this article of our mutual friend, Andrey from Chelyabinsk.

      But in the comments napalm.

      As always ...
  15. Comrade
    Comrade 4 September 2021 05: 08
    +1
    We are looking at the document at what distances the battleships of Rozhdestvensky conducted firing practice.
    1. rytik32
      rytik32 4 September 2021 10: 00
      +3
      Valentine, good afternoon!
      Explain, please, how firing could start from a distance of 70 cabs, if 6-inch guns on Borodino and Oslyab were physically unable to shoot beyond 60 cabs ???
      And one more question. "Sisoy", contrary to the instructions, started zeroing in with 12-inch guns from 60 cabs, if 6-inch guns started shooting only from 50 cabs ???
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        4 September 2021 11: 14
        +1
        Quote: rytik32
        Explain, please, how firing could start from a distance of 70 cabs, if 6-inch guns on Borodino and Oslyab were physically unable to shoot beyond 60 cabs ???

        Alexey, do you even read what they write? I have quoted Malechkin 100 times in the article and earlier, he was posted on Tsushima. You should already remember it by heart, since you are engaged in artillery in Tsushima.
        In an excerpt the Russians say in white that from 6 inches they opened fire from 50 cables.
        Quote: rytik32
        And one more question. "Sisoy", contrary to the instructions, started zeroing in with 12-inch guns from 60 cabs, if 6-inch guns started shooting only from 50 cabs ???

        Yes, he did not start any zeroing, there was detachment shooting, he shot according to the data transmitted to him by the lead ship
        1. rytik32
          rytik32 4 September 2021 12: 20
          +2
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Alexey, do you even read what they write?

          I read it and realized long ago that Malechkin wrote his own raving mare.
          Now I want to figure out why you and Comrade are quoting this nonsense from time to time?
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          In an excerpt, Russians in white say that from 6 dm they opened fire from 50 cables

          It's clear lol
          Yes, he did not start any zeroing, there was detachment shooting, he shot according to the data transmitted to him by the lead ship

          So "the shooting was carried out ... starting from the 70th cab".
          As you wrote above, their squad leader started, i.e. "Oslyabya". And how "Oslyabya" could perform zeroing from 6-inch guns with 70 cabs ???
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            4 September 2021 17: 53
            +1
            Quote: rytik32
            So "the shooting was carried out ... starting from the 70th cab".
            As you wrote above, their squad leader started, i.e. "Oslyabya". And how "Oslyabya" could perform zeroing from 6-inch guns with 70 cabs ???

            And who told you that "Oslyabya" started zeroing in with 70 cables? Please read as it is written.
            Quote: rytik32
            I read it and realized long ago that Malechkin wrote his own raving mare.

            Because it doesn't fit into your vision of the Madagascar teachings? You did not even take the trouble to figure out the conditions under which such shooting was possible, although from the order of the exercises they are quite obvious
            1. rytik32
              rytik32 4 September 2021 20: 42
              0
              And who told you that "Oslyabya" started zeroing in with 70 cables? Please read as it is written

              "Oslyabya" began sighting with 25 cab. This should have been done according to the circulars, and this is the same in some memoirs.
              You did not even take the trouble to figure out the conditions under which such shooting was possible, although they are quite obvious from the order of the exercises.

              Yes, you know these terms, but don't tell anyone laughing
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                5 September 2021 10: 01
                +1
                Quote: rytik32
                "Oslyabya" began sighting with 25 cab. This should have been done according to the circulars, and this is the same in some memoirs.

                In which ones? :))) I brought you three starart, I can still remind Ozerov
                Quote: rytik32
                Yes, you know these terms, but don't tell anyone

                (shrugging his shoulders) I did it both in the article and in the comments. What is not clear to you?
      2. Comrade
        Comrade 5 September 2021 04: 37
        +1
        Hello, Alexey!

        Quote: rytik32
        Explain, please, how the shooting could start from a distance of 70 cabs, if 6-inch guns on Borodino and Oslyab were physically unable to shoot beyond 60 cabs?


        As the practice of shooting practice of the Japanese fleet shows, zeroing there not always was an integral part of the training caliber shooting.
        In support of this thesis, it would be appropriate to refer to the training caliber firing conducted by the ships of the 1st combat detachment on April 25, 1905. There is no point in citing the results of the firing, they are known to everyone.
        As you, Alexey, probably remember, the target was an island from about 24 to 30 meters long and 10 to 12 meters wide, surrounded by a low coastal strip. So if the projectile fell at a distance of 6 to 9 meters from the island itself, it still hit the shore and counted by observers as a hit.
        The exercise was attended by Vice Admiral Kamimura, who observed the firing from the battleship "Fuji".
        The ships took turns walking along the island, opening fire on the target at a predetermined bearing.
        Each ship made two passes along the island on the starboard side and two passes along the island on the port side. At the same time, Admiral Togo went from ship to ship, personally being present on each of them during firing on the island.
        They fired training shells using reduced charges. The number of shells was limited, two shells for 10 "and 12" guns, and six shells for 6 "and 8" guns.
        Zeroing during this shooting practice not was conducted.

        Your humble servant, dear colleague, was not on the Madagascar training caliber shooting, therefore I can not "explain" anything to you. However, based on the experience of the shooting practice of the Japanese fleet, in This in a specific case that did without zeroing, it can be assumed that the main caliber guns of the Russian battleships on some stages of these training firing could fire independently, without zeroing in with a medium caliber, and with a decrease in the distance to the targets, medium-caliber guns were connected and the battleships moved on to the next stage of shooting practice, with zeroing in with medium caliber.

        I emphasize that this is only a version based on the fact - on April 25, 1905, the Japanese, conducting training firing from main-caliber guns, found it necessary and possible to do without zeroing in from medium-caliber guns.

        Quote: rytik32
        I read it and realized long ago that Malechkin wrote his own raving mare.
        Now I want to figure out why you and Comrade are quoting this nonsense from time to time?

        Everything is relative.
        From our point of view, "bullshit", as you have deigned to say, was written by Kostenko.

        You, as far as I managed to be convinced, adhere to a diametrically opposite point of view regarding this obvious nonsense.
        1. rytik32
          rytik32 5 September 2021 09: 03
          +2
          Dear Valentine, good afternoon!
          it will be appropriate to refer to the training caliber firing conducted by the ships of the 1st combat detachment on April 25, 1905.

          In those Japanese firing, the range was small - it was quite possible to do without zeroing.
          it can be assumed that the main-caliber guns of the Russian battleships at some stages of these training firing could fire independently, without zeroing in with a medium caliber

          This directly contradicts the order of January 14, 1905
          For the future, I strictly forbid, both in training and in battle, to throw 12 "bombs, without having corrected data 15 minutes before the shot

          Those. it was forbidden to shoot from 12-inch guns without zeroing in!
          You, as far as I managed to be convinced, in relation to this obvious delirium adhere to the diametrically opposite point of view

          Ours very often confused the caliber of the shells hit, recording everything that was possible in 12-dm. And this is seen not only on the "Eagle".
          My opinion is that there could well have been 42 hits by shells with a caliber of 12-dm and 8-dm.
          In total, about 100 shells were hit.
          142 according to Kostenko and Shvede is most likely the upper limit.
          1. Comrade
            Comrade 6 September 2021 02: 30
            +1
            Hello, Alexey!
            Quote: rytik32
            In those Japanese firing, the range was small - it was quite possible to do without zeroing.

            It's not about distance, it's about Japanese instructions. Is it stipulated there that 12 '' guns can fire without zeroing from 6 '' guns?
            You laid out instructions for the shooting practice of the Japanese, would you be so kind as to remind where exactly?

            Quote: rytik32
            This directly contradicts the order of January 14, 1905
            For the future, I strictly forbid, both in training and in battle, to throw 12 "bombs, without having corrected data 15 minutes before the shot

            On December 29, 1903, the battleship "Tsesarevich" fired with practical and combat shells (reduced and conventional charges), which was started as a secondary test of artillery installations and the hull by firing. For the first time, the check was carried out in France.
            It is possible that in Madagascar, firing at a distance of 70 cab., They did not practice shooting, but a check of artillery installations of the main caliber.
            And then, as the distance was reduced, the test shooting turned into training shooting, with the adjustment of 6 '' guns.

            Quote: rytik32
            Ours very often confused the caliber of the shells hit, recording everything that was possible in 12-dm.

            "What is written with a pen cannot be cut out with an ax."
            Quote: rytik32
            My opinion is that there could well have been 42 hits by shells with a caliber of 12-dm and 8-dm.
            In total, about 100 shells.

            a) Not so long ago you stated that
            Kostenko / Swede data about 40 hits with a caliber of 12-8 dm (in the later version of Kostenko) and about 100 6-inch doesn't look fantastic anymore


            b) In the article "Damage to the battleship" Eagle "in the Battle of Tsushima, two tables appear sixty four hits (45 port side 19 starboard side).
            1. rytik32
              rytik32 6 September 2021 07: 14
              0
              Good day, Valentine!
              Is it stipulated there that 12 '' guns can fire without zeroing from 6 '' guns?

              Yes, at long distances, the sighting was carried out from the main battery guns according to the instructions and in fact in Tsushima.
              Is it stipulated there that 12 '' guns can fire without zeroing from 6 '' guns?

              There are three sources of damage to the Eagle:
              1. Japanese report. The most detailed, with a diagram. I have this report. However, not all hits are reported in this report. For example, it does not hit the bow turret, although the mark on the turret's armor is clearly visible in the photo.
              2. Report to Shvede and drawings by Kostenko and Larionov. You call this data science fiction.
              3. Packinham's report, which has come down to us through Campbell's article. The number of hits of 12-inch shells in it is clearly underestimated. In its pure form, it is possible that the report is in the reports of the attaché (full version).
              To get the most complete picture, it is necessary to combine the existing photos with these sources.
              1. Comrade
                Comrade 7 September 2021 02: 20
                +1
                Hello, Alexey!
                Quote: rytik32
                at long distances, the sighting was carried out from the main battery guns according to the instructions and in fact in Tsushima

                Thank you for the information, colleague, but where can I find your translation of the instruction text?
                Quote: rytik32
                There are three sources of damage to the Eagle:
                1. Japanese report. The most detailed, with a diagram. I have this report. However, not all hits are reported in this report. For example, it does not hit the bow turret, although the mark on the turret's armor is clearly visible in the photo.

                Do not consider it indelicate, Alexey, but not so long ago you mistook the small-caliber guns on the Sisoy the Great's bridge for Barr & Stroud rangefinders. Probably, this time too, you misinterpreted a fragment of the photograph.

                Quote: rytik32
                2. Report to Shvede and drawings by Kostenko and Larionov. You call this data science fiction.
                To get the most complete picture, it is necessary to combine the existing photos with these sources.

                Cleverly thought up!
                Without postponing the matter indefinitely, let's combine Kostenko's drawing with photography.
                1) Figure:

                2) Photo:

                In the photograph, we obviously do not see the hit shown in the figure.

                And forty-two hits of twelve-inch shells, which Kostenko shook - yes, this is fantastic, and unscientific at that.
                1. rytik32
                  rytik32 7 September 2021 08: 37
                  0
                  Valentine, good afternoon!
                  This photo clearly shows the hit of the projectile.
                  1. Comrade
                    Comrade 7 September 2021 15: 05
                    +1
                    Hello, Alexey!
                    On the fragment of the photograph posted by your humble servant, the place corresponds to that in the picture of Kostenko.
                    And on the fragment of the photo you have laid out there is a place not corresponds to what is shown in the figure by Kostenko.
                    Just in case, I’ll ask a question, do you have a photo with the link of this place to the general view of the tower?
                    1. rytik32
                      rytik32 7 September 2021 21: 57
                      -1
                      Valentin, the question was originally not about Kostenko, but about a clear hit mark that was not included in the Japanese report.
                      Well, according to Kostenko and Larionov (the two of them drew up a diagram), nothing is refuted. There is no major damage - after all, this is armor and Japanese shells did not always damage the top layer of armor, as in my photo. And minor damage is not visible due to light and focus. Please note that small debris dents are also absent on the side of the tower. But it is unlikely that they were not there at all.
                      1. Comrade
                        Comrade 7 September 2021 22: 35
                        +2
                        Hello, Alexey!
                        Quote: rytik32
                        the question was initially not about Kostenko, but about the obvious trail from the hit, which did not make it into the Japanese report.

                        You have forgotten, initially it was about the fact that Kostenka's drawings show hits that are not in the photographs. This is our long-standing dispute with you, and your humble servant has already presented a fragment to you.

                        Quote: rytik32
                        And minor damage is not visible due to light and focus.

                        The trick is that the angle is the most suitable there. If you want to figure it out in good faith, the bell on the roof of the tower serves as a reference point for you.
                        Kostenka's Drawn Hit inevitably should have got into the frame.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Please note that small debris dents are also absent on the side of the tower. But it is unlikely that they were not there at all.

                        Pay attention, dear colleague, in the photo there are potholes from shrapnel hitting the front turret there.
                        Or circle them in red?

                        With regards to the photo you posted, the signature under it is wrong. On it we see the junction of two lower corners of two armor plates.
                        Now look carefully, on the Eagle tower, below, the armor plates are docked with horizontal beltmissing from your photo. A red arrow points to this horizontal belt encircling the tower.

                        Show this belt in your photo, please.
                        He is not, but it is clearly visible that this is the most string two plates. So it turns out that the front turret of the Eagle's main caliber is not there. Are there not enough blunders in the literature, including attribution of photographs? This is one of them.
                      2. Comrade
                        Comrade 7 September 2021 22: 48
                        +1
                        Here is a compilation of fragments of two photographs for your convenience.
                        See, the bottom edge of the 12 '' tower is surrounded by a horizontal belt. Thick enough as seen in the photo.
                        And here is your photo, which depicts lower, I emphasize, lower corners of two armor plates.

                        We obviously do not observe a horizontal belt there, from which the conclusion follows - the photo is attributed incorrectly.
                        Judging by the silence, you have no, unfortunately, photographs with a reference to this place with a shell hit to the general view of the tower. And is it a tower?
                      3. rytik32
                        rytik32 7 September 2021 23: 44
                        -1
                        that the angle is the most suitable there

                        No, with this angle on the side, even the traces of the fragments are not visible. And on the front they are in abundance. It doesn't work that way.
                        armor plates docked with a horizontal belt

                        Do you have a photo of the tower from the front and back? Is there a belt there too?

                        On the Japanese scheme http://tsushima.org.ru/uploads/images/battle/orel_povr_l.jpg
                        hits in the bow tower are clearly marked, and not even one, but most likely four. And in the Japanese report, these hits are not.

                        Do you think that Kostenko persuaded the Japanese to make a diagram like that?

                        In this regard, questions arise about the dating of the photograph you have provided. Perhaps the side of the tower has already been putty, if even a trace of the slightest fragment is not visible on it, but there are many of them on the front.
                      4. Comrade
                        Comrade 8 September 2021 01: 22
                        +1
                        Hello, Alexey!

                        Quote: rytik32
                        The Japanese diagram clearly shows hits in the bow turret, and not even one, but most likely four. But in the Japanese report, these hits are not.

                        And in the diagram from the Swede report, slightly different from the Kostenka version, there is only one (as an option, two close), and even then it is not in the photograph.


                        Quote: rytik32
                        In this regard, questions arise about the dating of the photograph you have provided.

                        The photo was taken by one of the foreign journalists, an American, shortly after the arrival of the "Eagle" in Maizuru. In the foreground is a Japanese sentry with a rifle on his shoulder. Judging by the expression on her face and the position of her legs, she is clearly posing.
                        This photograph is from a photo album, one of which is in the Library of Congress, for example.
                        Cosmetic renovation work began later, which is easy to understand when comparing this photo with other photographs of the "Eagle" available. It made no sense for the Japanese to putty (and even paint later), they still dismantled the tower during the repair.
                      5. Comrade
                        Comrade 8 September 2021 04: 24
                        +1
                        Sorry, I was wrong. The Japanese did not touch the turrets of the main caliber.
  16. Dimax-nemo
    Dimax-nemo 12 September 2021 13: 12
    0
    "In theory, the" rate of fire of 12 "Borodino installations was one shot in 66-70 seconds. 1 shot in 40 seconds was given by the towers of the" post-Tsushima battleships "- Andrei, Eustathius. Also" in theory. "There was also poor ventilation. it was simply impossible to be while firing. So the rate of fire of installations here was less "moreover", for Slava, Tsarevich and Panteleimon so for sure. In battles with the Germans for 100 kb. I had to zero in with what I have. And in general for For the PMV gunners, the idea of ​​aiming at a different caliber already gave off delirium, which is little better than a rangefinder.
    There is also something else. In Rozhdestvensky's instructions about salvo firing, not half a word.