Military Review

September guns. The outbreak of World War II

249
September guns. The outbreak of World War II

What happened in Poland on September 1, 1939?


The ancestors understood this even then: in 1940 in Moscow a good book will already be published, from which you can take an excellent quote:

The general mobilization was announced only on August 30, that is, on the eve of the German invasion. It was not destined to come true; under the blows of the war that had already begun, it only brought in terrible chaos. Railroads and dirt tracks began to be blocked by the called up reservists, moving towards the troops that had already begun to withdraw. This whole sad picture showed that if the onset of a state of war finds a modern army in an unmobilized form, then it is impossible to count on the possibility of mobilizing it, concentrating it and entering the war in an orderly manner.

And again, this happened over the next two years, over and over again in different countries, until it came up against Moscow and Stalingrad. As for the Polish Army specifically, the Poles had a fairly good army quantitatively and qualitatively, but did not have a normal general staff and war plans, but they had huge reserves of optimism and hatred.

During the pre-war years, Polish military planning was based on the Wshud plan, a plan for a war with the USSR, which Poland considered its main enemy. Most of the funds for fortification and preparation of the theater of operations were spent exactly there, near the Soviet borders, it was on the opposition of the Red Army that the Polish Army was sharpened. And in case of war with Germany, there were mobilization plans "S" and "W", which were not worked out in detail and were not provided with resources.

The situation began to change only after the fall of Czechoslovakia and the realization of the simple fact that Poland was surrounded on land from three sides, and in the East - by the USSR, from which, under the guise of the Civil War, large territories were taken away and the RKKA prisoners of war were genocide, and allied Romania is not entirely allied, and Bucharest will not intervene in the fight for the interests of the Commonwealth. Communication with allies by sea is impossible due to the lack of a full fleet... The result of this situation was the Zahud plan, with which Poland entered the war.

The Poles, with successful mobilization, could deploy 1 million soldiers on the battlefield, consisting of 39 infantry divisions, 11 cavalry and 2 motorized brigades, 3 mountain brigades and other units. Peacetime army - 260 thousand people. It was also not bad with the equipment - so, there were 3393 artillery pieces, anti-aircraft guns - 470, anti-aircraft guns - 1124. Tanks Poland had 610 of different types, 824 aircraft. The Poles did not manage to carry out a full mobilization, but they deployed seven armies in the West (Modlin, Pomorze, Poznan, Lodz, Krakow, Carpathians, Prussians) and two task forces (Narew and Wyszków). In general:

thanks to hidden mobilization, by the morning of September 1, the mobilization plan was fulfilled by 60%, but the deployment of the Polish troops was not completed - only 46,8% of the troops were in the destination areas, but they did not have time to fully take their positions.

Germany divided its forces into two groups of armies - North and South, which included 57 divisions of 1,5 million troops, 13500 guns and mortars, 2533 tanks and 2231 aircraft.

Thus, the Germans had a serious advantage over Poland, but with a competent effective defense, the Polish Army could hold back the enemy for quite a long time. But the Polish government was unable to establish effective defense, moreover, it did not particularly strive for this.

Planning errors


In planning, the Poles made a number of mistakes, which include:

1. An even distribution of troops along the border.

2. Delay with latent mobilization.

3. Underestimating the effectiveness of interaction aviation and Wehrmacht tanks.

4. Reassessment of the qualities of their troops.

5. Almost complete absence of reserves, which reduced the war, in fact, to a border battle.

6. Lack of serious mobilization for the creation of new formations.

These mistakes are far from being explained by stupidity, but by an overestimation of the factor of the Western allies and an underestimation of the changes that have taken place in tactics and strategy over twenty years. Too many generals (and not only in Poland) saw the war as a kind of continuation of the war of the past, when epic battles flared up for the ferryman's house, and advancing 5 km was considered a great success. Well, France, the strongest land army in Europe, with which the Polish Army was a tracing, after the completion of mobilization is 3,2 million people, 2850 tanks and 2400 aircraft. In theory, this is more than enough for a broad offensive and the diversion of a significant part of the forces from the Polish front.

But France and England did not intervene and carried out only a limited operation with the forces of nine divisions, after which they went into a deep defense, having a three-fold superiority in manpower only. In tanks, say, it was absolute. Actually, the Germans themselves understood this perfectly:

“We never, neither in 1938 nor in 1939, were actually able to withstand the concentrated blow of all these countries. And if we did not suffer defeat back in 1939, it was only because about 110 French and British divisions that stood in the West during our war with Poland against 23 German divisions remained completely inactive. "

They understood, but they started the war, because, in addition to military factors, there were political factors (the allies were in no hurry to start the war until the mobilization was complete and the situation with the effectiveness of the Polish Army and the position of the USSR was clarified) and psychological (in France they remembered very well the losses in the First World War. and did not rush to repeat).

This was exactly what the Polish leadership did not take into account, and in a single-handed battle, such a configuration of troops, which took shape on September 1, quickly led to disaster. Actually, the catastrophe happened - in fact, Poland was defeated within 10 days. By September 5, the front had been broken through, the Polish corridor was occupied, and the withdrawal beyond the Vistula began. On September 7, the commander-in-chief left the doomed Warsaw; on September 9, negotiations began with France on granting asylum to the Polish government. By September 15, the Polish army was completely surrounded, resistance was offered only by individual units, deprived of a centralized leadership.


The defense of Warsaw, except for additional proof that there were brave soldiers and intelligent officers in Poland, did not change anything and did not decide anything. The Poles showed an extraordinary heroism, but there was already a little less sense in it than zero, by September 28, all this was nothing more than an act of patriotism.

Lessons from the beginning of World War II


The beginning of World War II turned out to be impressive and instructive, and there are serious lessons to be learned from it:

1. It is stupid to rely on allies with whom you do not have an ulnar connection (that is, common interests).

2. Allies, significantly superior to you in total power, will not always fulfill the agreements, in this case the rule of a donkey and a rider, voiced by Bismarck, works.

3. When choosing a potential adversary, one must be extremely objective and not get carried away by the grievances of past centuries.

4. The most dangerous enemy is an overestimation of one's strength and influence in the world. In the case of Poland, this is especially relevant, because it was precisely the demonstrative rejection of Soviet security proposals, negotiations with Germany on a military alliance, participation in the partition of Czechoslovakia and reliance exclusively on England and France, after realizing the inevitability of war, that led to exactly this result.

The attempts of a completely average European state to play as a superpower in the face of Nazi Germany could not have had any other result. And if the Poles said:

“If we are occupied by the Germans, we will lose our freedom. If the Russians - the soul. "

Through the lips of their prime minister.

Then came from Germany:

“This is not Danzig,” Hitler said. “For us, this is about the living space in the east and the provision of food supplies, about the solution of the Baltic problem.”

And the Polish allies believed:

"The fate of Poland will be determined by the overall results of the war, and the latter, in turn, will depend on the ability of the Western powers to defeat Germany in the end, and not on whether they can ease German pressure on Poland at the outset."

And the only surprise is that Poland has the same allies again.
Author:
249 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. Professor
    Professor 5 September 2021 06: 20
    .
    The author forgot that Nazi Germany was not alone in the war in Poland. The USSR invaded Poland from the east. Poland didn't stand a chance.

    PS
    And the only surprise is that Poland has the same allies again?
    No, not the same. Now Poland has Germany as an ally, and a dozen more NATO countries.
    1. mmaxx
      mmaxx 5 September 2021 06: 45
      +26
      Recall the number when the USSR invaded. And another number when the Polish government fled Poland.
      I am always amused by these accusations. Poland was then a great friend of the USSR, the whole world and just a lamb - a role model in terms of peace and democracy. laughing
      This was our FIRST enemy in the world. And who did not calm down at all by the results of the Soviet-Polish war.
      1. Professor
        Professor 5 September 2021 07: 01
        .
        Are you trying to justify the crimes of the USSR? In vain. The USSR attacked Poland in violation of international law, attacked Finland for which he was expelled from the League of Nations. These are historical facts.
        1. mmaxx
          mmaxx 5 September 2021 07: 26
          +25
          Are you trying to justify a white and fluffy Poland with a "crime of the USSR"? With an attack on us in
          20 and all the other lovely years?
          Didn't the great Democrat Churchill write about the hyena of Europe? Yes, if not for this beautiful Poland, WWII would not have gone in our direction. And in fact, it was Poland that provoked this war with its dumbest policy.
          Amazing sympathy for our enemies.
        2. vetchinckin.iur
          vetchinckin.iur 5 September 2021 07: 26
          +25
          And the crimes of Poland have violated the international borders of Czechoslovakia.
          1. Professor
            Professor 5 September 2021 07: 34
            .
            Quote: vetchinckin.iur
            And the crimes of Poland have violated the international borders of Czechoslovakia.


            Quote: mmaxx
            Are you trying to justify a white and fluffy Poland with a "crime of the USSR"? With an attack on us in
            20 and all the other lovely years?
            Didn't the great Democrat Churchill write about the hyena of Europe? Yes, if not for this beautiful Poland, WWII would not have gone in our direction. And in fact, it was Poland that provoked this war with its dumbest policy.
            Amazing sympathy for our enemies.


            AND? If your neighbor is a pedophile, does that give you rights to his children?
            1. Xnumx vis
              Xnumx vis 5 September 2021 09: 09
              +27
              Quote: Professor
              If your neighbor is a pedophile, does that give you rights to his children?

              It gives the right to the custodial authorities to confiscate children from a pedophile. Save from the harassment of a sexual freak.
              1. Professor
                Professor 5 September 2021 12: 31
                .
                Quote: 30 vis
                Quote: Professor
                If your neighbor is a pedophile, does that give you rights to his children?

                It gives the right to the custodial authorities to confiscate children from a pedophile. Save from the harassment of a sexual freak.

                Fabulous. Your harassment of his children does not become legitimate. So it is with Poland. Her crimes do not justify the crimes of the USSR.
            2. 210ox
              210ox 5 September 2021 09: 31
              +19
              Absolutely perverted logic. It gives the right to the relevant authorities to close the pedophile for a long time.
              1. Professor
                Professor 5 September 2021 12: 35
                .
                Quote: 210ox
                Absolutely perverted logic. It gives the right to the relevant authorities to close the pedophile for a long time.

                Perverted logic is to justify your crimes by nodding towards another criminal. The whole theory was developed as "Poland deserved" the Soviet occupation, as she herself had a "stigma in the fluff" as she herself committed crimes. Excuses, excuses, excuses.
                1. 210ox
                  210ox 5 September 2021 12: 45
                  +21
                  Poland deserves it ?! Well, this is karma. Yes, I will also remind the gentleman from Israel about the fate of the Polish Jews and how the Polish population treated them. The lawyer was found.
                  1. Professor
                    Professor 5 September 2021 13: 21
                    .
                    Quote: 210ox
                    Poland deserves it ?!

                    By your logic, the victim of the crime deserves it.

                    Quote: 210ox
                    Well, this is such karma

                    Well, yes. According to you, the victim has such a karma and the perpetrator is not guilty of this.

                    Quote: 210ox
                    Yes, I will also remind the gentleman from Israel about the fate of Polish Jews and how the Polish population treated them. The lawyer was found.

                    Remind how the men in the Smolensk region "treated" Jewish teenagers. If you forgot, then the Nobel laureate recalled.
                    1. Kot_Kuzya
                      Kot_Kuzya 5 September 2021 14: 24
                      +17
                      Quote: Professor
                      If you forgot, then the Nobel laureate recalled.

                      Yeah, the Nobel laureates are now respected and authoritative, especially Obama with his Peace Prize, and the Russophobic Aleksievich. You would still remember Gorbachev and Sochinitsyn.
                      1. Professor
                        Professor 5 September 2021 16: 35
                        .
                        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                        Quote: Professor
                        If you forgot, then the Nobel laureate recalled.

                        Yeah, the Nobel laureates are now respected and authoritative, especially Obama with his Peace Prize, and the Russophobic Aleksievich. You would still remember Gorbachev and Sochinitsyn.


                        Generally, the Nobel laureates in literature are respected people. By the way, and despite the fact that I personally hate Solzhenitsyn, I cannot deny that he is talented. Nevertheless, it is useless to argue over the fact of the mentioned episodes. Unfortunately, these facts took place.

                        Quote: 210ox
                        Well, don't touch the "professor" of the Smolensk peasants! These are my parents, they endured the occupation in the Smolensk region in the Glinkovsky region - Bely Holm, RzhavetsI, Sekerino ... Then all were equally hit by the Hitler's rink. Here's something that the "laureate" was not there ....

                        No, not the same. Learn materiel.
                    2. 210ox
                      210ox 5 September 2021 15: 41
                      +7
                      Well, don't touch the "professor" of the Smolensk peasants! These are my parents, they endured the occupation in the Smolensk region in the Glinkovsky region - Bely Holm, RzhavetsI, Sekerino ... Then all were equally hit by the Hitler's rink. Here's something that the "laureate" was not there ....
                    3. The comment was deleted.
                2. ecolog
                  ecolog 5 September 2021 15: 37
                  +14
                  What are the crimes? They took theirs. Do not return the USSR to Western Ukraine and Zap. Belarus, the Germans would have stood there and in 1941 it would have been more convenient for them to start. And Poland? what is Poland? She was gone by that time.
                3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                  Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 September 2021 15: 58
                  +17
                  Quote: Professor
                  Perverse logic is to justify your crimes by nodding in the direction of another criminal. The whole theory was developed as "Poland deserved" the Soviet occupation, as she herself had a "stigma in the fluff" as she herself committed crimes. Excuses, excuses, excuses.

                  It's great to hear this from an opponent who suffers from a similar selective amnesia !!!
                  It remains only to replace the words "Poland" with "Palestine", "Soviet occupation" with "Jewish" !!! laughing
                  Galans, when will you give to the Syrians? Honest you are ours !!! repeat
                  1. Professor
                    Professor 5 September 2021 16: 39
                    .
                    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                    It's great to hear this from an opponent who suffers from a similar selective amnesia !!!
                    It remains only to replace the words "Poland" with "Palestine", "Soviet occupation" with "Jewish" !!!
                    Galans, when will you give to the Syrians? Honest you are ours !!!

                    And let's.
                    1. Where is Palestine? Capital, banknotes, borders, and when and from whom did Israel occupy it?
                    2. The Jewish occupation of Judea is when and from whom? Well, and most importantly, how did the Jews occupy Judea?
                    3. We will give the Golan to the Syrians as soon as they tell us what the Golan is called in Arabic. That's how honest we are. hi
                    1. Alexxis
                      Alexxis 6 September 2021 11: 03
                      +3
                      Indeed, the Golan Heights in Arabic Haḍbatu 'l-Jawlān. The UN Security Council recognizes this territory as Syrian.
                      1. Professor
                        Professor 6 September 2021 11: 21
                        -6
                        Quote: Alexxis
                        Please - Golan Heights in Arabic Haḍbatu 'l-Jawlān... The UN Security Council recognizes this territory as Syrian.

                        However, this is again in Hebrew. So what about Arabic?
                    2. Wildcat
                      Wildcat 7 September 2021 11: 48
                      0
                      If I were in the place of the Jews, I would not be like the Golan, I would not give up Sinai either. Have they given Sinai and that peace has come with the Arabs? Peace on the border with Egypt?
                      And about Palestine - it's not clear at all. Constant wars or shelling. Now, if there was a small territory next to the largest and most peaceful country, the population of which would regularly try to fire the capital with missiles ...
                      The world after the war begins not when politicians sign papers and divide the land, but when the enemies do not resist anymore. Papers later.
                      But the Jews know better, they are in their place, and I am in my place. hi
                4. mmaxx
                  mmaxx 6 September 2021 01: 42
                  +4
                  Lover of analogies: if a neighbor is a bandit, then the best thing is to kill this bandit, and together with someone.
            3. sleeve
              sleeve 5 September 2021 13: 01
              +12
              Fu, how petty it is!
              Let's paraphrase: "If your neighbor is aggressive and not restrained and has little respect towards you, does he have the right to expect reciprocal violence and disrespect for himself?" Here. It seems that this is how your thought sounds in the language of diplomacy ...
              1. Professor
                Professor 5 September 2021 13: 28
                .
                Quote: sleeve
                Fu, how petty it is!

                Much more petty. The outbreak of World War II, the bloodiest war in human history, is petty ...

                Quote: sleeve
                Let's paraphrase: "If your neighbor is aggressive and not restrained and has little respect towards you, does he have the right to expect reciprocal violence and disrespect for himself?" Here. It seems that this is how your thought sounds in the language of diplomacy ...

                No need to "fantasize" and "paraphrase". It was the USSR that was aggressive and not restrained and had little respect in relation to Poland. And none of Poland's past crimes gave the USSR the right to aggression.
                1. sleeve
                  sleeve 5 September 2021 17: 07
                  +12
                  Oh how! Well, the flag is in your hands in your difficult business of expiration of hatred for the Russian people. You will need a lot of lies and anger. I hope you know where to get it without giving a damn about the concept of forgiveness. It seems you only accept humiliation of repentance. Well, if so, then take another step, tell them that it was we who killed 5,9 million Poles. And then add the Holocaust to us. And the devil is with her, with historical reality. You are an artist, you paint in white ...
                2. mikh-korsakov
                  mikh-korsakov 5 September 2021 18: 03
                  +12
                  About the aggression of the USSR against Poland before the start of the Second World War - facts in the studio. But Poland considered the USSR its enemy, so why stand on ceremony with it. References to international law are futile, because international law is the right of the weak to complain about the strong. The Munich Agreement is an example of the right of the mighty. In English there is a word can. Who can is in the right. This is the fate of small countries. Other blah blah. Concerning the Polish people. The Polish people felt great in the Warsaw Pact, and enthusiastically entered Czechoslovakia in 1968. But when the USSR weakened, winds blew from the west, and they remembered the partition of Poland, by the way, the division into three. But the Russian Federation can also remember the Polish-Swedish intervention. What do you command to measure offenses?
        3. Old electrician
          Old electrician 5 September 2021 07: 28
          +25
          Are you trying to justify the crimes of the USSR? In vain. The USSR attacked Poland in violation of international law, attacked Finland for which he was expelled from the League of Nations. These are historical facts.
          - what you have certainly convinced me is that in 1937 there were no innocent people.
          Historical facts:
          1. Poland, having seized Soviet territories in 1920, is an aggressor country with all the ensuing legal consequences, since its eastern border was determined by the Treaty of Versailles along the Curzon line. In 1939, the USSR, in accordance with the Treaty of Versailles, regained the territories not belonging to Poland and returned to the Curzon Line. There were no international claims to the USSR in this regard and could not be. Even Churchill was in solidarity with the USSR on this issue. It was greed and Russophobia that drove the state of Poland to suicide.
          2. The biggest lie of our time is that the Soviet-Finnish war allegedly began because of the shelling of Soviet territory in the vicinity of Mainila on 26.11.1939/15.10.1939/XNUMX. Finnish shelling of Soviet territory has repeatedly happened before. So, for example, XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX near the same Mainila from the Finnish side a passenger car was fired at from a machine gun. The comic of the situation was that it was the car of the Finnish government delegation returning from the next round of negotiations in Moscow.
          28.11.1939/30.11.1939/XNUMX on the Soviet-Finnish border, there were two armed incidents at once. In the area of ​​the isthmus between the Rybachiy and Sredny peninsulas, Finnish soldiers attacked our border guards. At the same time, a Finnish reconnaissance group, sent earlier to our territory, broke through in the Vidlitsky region across the USSR border to Finland (!!!). After that, the government of the USSR denounced the Soviet-Finnish non-aggression pact and hostilities began on XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX. However, after the outbreak of the war, Soviet troops entered the territory of Finland, which gave "world honor" a reason, contrary to all logic, to accuse the USSR of aggression.
          1. Ashes of Claes
            Ashes of Claes 5 September 2021 12: 48
            -4
            Quote: Old electrician
            1. Poland, having seized Soviet territories in 1920, is an aggressor country with all the ensuing legal consequences, since its eastern border was determined by the Treaty of Versailles along the Curzon line.

            What does the Treaty of Versailles have to do with it? Then the Paris Conference, for that matter. Poland's eastern border had temporary status according to her decisions. Curzon, on the other hand, sent a note to Chicherin, actually, on July 11, 1920, and five days later the Soviet government rejected it at a meeting of the Central Committee of the party for understandable reasons - in the future, the Red Army could well take Warsaw. So there is no need to talk about the "certain" border of Poland.
            Quote: Old electrician
            In 1939, the USSR, in accordance with the Treaty of Versailles, regained territories not belonging to Poland.

            Again. What, nafig, Treaty of Versailles, then ??? Where is the mention of Versailles in the note of the Soviet NKID dated September 17th ?? What kind of fantasies?
            The USSR took revenge for the shame of August 1920 and wrested its (or rather, former imperial) territories from half-dead Poland, beaten by the Reich? Well, okay, let's say. Then with what fright is everyone here blaming the Poles for Teshin? The situation is the same - in the same 1920, the Czechs, taking advantage of the fact that the Poles were engaged in the war with Russia, took over Teshin, and (attention!) Masaryk threatened that, if something happened, he would take the side of Soviet Russia - a bluff stupid, but successful. And in 1938, the Poles "returned their own", taking revenge. Yes, they acted like a rat, like political oboechniks - but situationally just like the USSR in 1939.
            Quote: Old electrician
            2. The biggest lie of our time is that the Soviet-Finnish war allegedly began because of the shelling of Soviet territory in the vicinity of Mainila on 26.11.1939/XNUMX/XNUMX.

            Seriously? It is you that the People's Commissariat for Foreign Affairs and personally accused Comrade Molotov of lying? Read the NKID note from 26.11.39/XNUMX/XNUMX and do not write nonsense. Mainila was the trigger for the conflict.
            Quote: Old electrician
            However, after the outbreak of the war, Soviet troops entered the territory of Finland, which gave "world honor" a reason, contrary to all logic, to accuse the USSR of aggression.

            What? Contrary to what logic? It was aggression in the classic form. The logic of "world dignity" is just iron.
            Enough already straining to expose the USSR as a fluffy, peace-loving beauty - this is insulting, first of all, for his memory! He was active and ambitious, sometimes he went across the political morality dictated by various lights of democracy. And he showed muscles, not a pretty face.
            1. qQQQ
              qQQQ 6 September 2021 09: 09
              0
              Quote: Ashes of Klaas
              Then with what fright is everyone here blaming the Poles for Teshin?

              You are confused, it is the Poles who blame us for the return of our former lands, with Teshin behind us. And about Finland, ask how many times it invaded the USSR after gaining independence. So that she was a specific enemy, and the USSR was solving this problem on the eve of a big war.
              1. Ashes of Claes
                Ashes of Claes 6 September 2021 11: 27
                +1
                Quote: qqqq
                You messed up, these are Poles

                I'm not confusing anything. These are events of the same order - revenge for the loss of twenty years ago and "restoration of justice" in our understanding. The Poles did not create the illusion that their eastern regions were the territory of a potential conflict with the USSR. The refusal to let the Red Army through its territory during the Czechoslovak crisis is completely logical - having entered once, Stalin would not have left and would not have given "his". Which, in the end, did happen.
                Quote: qqqq
                So that she was a specific enemy, and the USSR was solving this problem on the eve of a big war.

                So what? Is "a concrete enemy" already a Belli incident? Whether the USSR did the right thing or not is another matter, but it was he who unleashed the war. Any aggressor in modern history, you know, can find a lot of ironic reasons, but the very fact of aggression does not change this.
                1. qQQQ
                  qQQQ 6 September 2021 13: 57
                  +1
                  Quote: Ashes of Klaas
                  Stalin would not have left and would not have given "his". Which, in the end, did happen.

                  We do not know and will never know how it would be (would be). And it happened quite differently. We have won the right to stay there.
                  Quote: Ashes of Klaas
                  A specific enemy "- is this already a Belli incident?

                  Why not. The USA, Israel and others show by their own example what should and can be done with their enemies.
                  1. Ashes of Claes
                    Ashes of Claes 6 September 2021 14: 39
                    0
                    Quote: qqqq
                    We do not know and will never know how it would be (would be).

                    and I did not speak about "it was (would)". I spoke about the admissions of the Poles. Do they seem unfounded to you?
                    Quote: qqqq
                    USA, Israel and others show by their own example that

                    Do not spread your thoughts. Speech specifically about the Soviet-Finnish war - what has Israel to do with it.
                    1. qQQQ
                      qQQQ 6 September 2021 22: 21
                      +1
                      Poland's fears are understandable, but it was possible to come to an agreement with Stalin (experience of cooperation with the United States and Britain), but not with Hitler. Poles made the wrong choice. And regarding the spread of thoughts, he simply showed that they do as they see fit with the enemies, and this has always been and will be. Therefore, the most important reason for the outbreak of the Soviet-Finnish war was that Finland made herself an enemy of the USSR.
                      1. Ashes of Claes
                        Ashes of Claes 7 September 2021 10: 41
                        -3
                        Quote: qqqq
                        Poland's fears are understandable, but it was possible to come to an agreement with Stalin (experience of cooperation with the United States and Britain), but not with Hitler.

                        Do you think Stalin is more negotiable than Hitler? Why would you? Both dictators considered Poland "a yawning offspring of Versailles" (c), therefore neither of them could be a guarantor of Poland's preservation of independence - this is an axiom. The civilizational choice of the Poles is clear without comment - the USSR was not considered by the world grandees as a worthy actor in European politics, and therefore Munich did without the Soviets. The Poles were punished for their arrogance and untidiness. But the funny thing about all this is that their guarantors did not immediately understand the goals of the Liberation campaign of the Red Army - Daladier and the French Foreign Ministry were in the illusion that the Soviets were temporarily taking control of the eastern regions until Polish statehood was restored to them. Naivnyak! These geniuses believed that Stalin would leave a buffer between himself and the Reich in the form of the remnants of Poland with the Polish administration.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        Therefore, the most important reason for the outbreak of the Soviet-Finnish war was that Finland made herself an enemy of the USSR.

                        What an enchanting ...
                        Well, by the way - the classics:

                        Leisure me sort your fault, puppy!
                        It’s your fault that I want to eat.

                        (C)
                      2. stalkerwalker
                        stalkerwalker 7 September 2021 11: 05
                        +3
                        Quote: Ashes of Klaas
                        Do you think Stalin is more negotiable than Hitler? Why would

                        And the fact that it was to the Soviet leadership, and not to the newly-minted Chancellor of Germany, that the then French government in the form of a representative of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs addressed in 1934 with a request to consider the possibility of creating a united anti-German front. Mein Kampf may not have been read by everyone. But with the coming to power of Hitler, the USSR reread it in 1933, and realized that there was a struggle for survival ahead. And the French, having a common border with Germany, seeing how the island allies intend to close their eyes to the lifting of the Versailles restrictions, began to actively seek allies on the continent.
                        Quote: Ashes of Klaas
                        Both dictators considered Poland "a yawning offspring of Versailles" (c)

                        Hitler came to power after a choice made by the German people. The IVS by that time was one of the members of the Politburo. They had authority in the party-state leadership, but not the head of state.
                        Quote: Ashes of Klaas
                        Quote: qqqq
                        Therefore, the most important reason for the outbreak of the Soviet-Finnish war was that Finland made herself an enemy of the USSR.

                        What an enchanting ...

                        After the signing of the Riga Treaty in 1921, which formalized the end of the Soviet-Polish war, the situation on the border of the USSR with the former territories of Ingushetia did not get any better. The border with Poland and Finland was considered a hot spot at the level of the current proxy wars. The raids of bandit formations from the territory of Poland and the nationalists of the Shutskorites from the territory of Finland caused both material damage and claimed the lives of citizens in the border areas. And all this happened with official support, the local press did not even hide it.
                      3. qQQQ
                        qQQQ 7 September 2021 11: 10
                        +4
                        Quote: Ashes of Klaas
                        Do you think Stalin is more negotiable than Hitler?

                        In fact. Stalin fulfilled all the agreements with the allies, withdrew the troops from everywhere from where he was supposed to withdraw (Austria) made it possible in Greece to suppress the social. movement, etc. The same cannot be said about Hitler.
                        Quote: Ashes of Klaas
                        What an enchanting ...
                        Well, by the way - the classics:

                        On the eve of a big war, given the proximity to Leningrad, frank cooperation with Hitler, the fact of hostility to the USSR, yes, it is the cause of the war. There are plenty of examples and smaller reasons for invasion in the world. It was not for nothing that I cited the example of the United States and Israel. I am not saying that the war with Finland is good or bad, then the leadership had reasons to resolve this issue, and the Finnish leadership needed to be smarter. They bet on the wrong ones and lost. The lesson went to work. Now Finland is probably one of the few countries with an adequate foreign policy towards us.
      2. Xnumx vis
        Xnumx vis 5 September 2021 07: 31
        +30
        And the main crime of the USSR in the Victory over Nazi Germany! ?
        1. Doccor18
          Doccor18 5 September 2021 10: 38
          +15
          Quote: 30 vis
          And the main crime of the USSR in the Victory over Nazi Germany! ?

          Exactly. This is what they are already 75 years old and cannot forgive. So many resources were spent to destroy the People's Land, both before 1941 and until 1991. But now they are coming off ...


          They understood, but they started the war, because, in addition to military factors, there were political factors (the allies were in no hurry to start a war ...
          The allies were more likely Germany than the USSR ...
      3. hohol95
        hohol95 5 September 2021 08: 02
        +23
        So, having entered the war with Imperial Japan, the USSR violated the "international rules" ???
        As with the "lord" Poland?
      4. tatra
        tatra 5 September 2021 08: 32
        +19
        Why is it not a crime for you, enemies of the USSR and the Soviet people, that the Poles unleashed the Soviet-Polish war in the early 20s and seized the territories of Soviet Russia?
        Because you are all Russophobes, and for the enemies of Russia?
      5. Flooding
        Flooding 5 September 2021 09: 18
        +16
        Quote: Professor
        USSR attacked Poland in violation of international law

        international law wiped and wiped all and sundry
        stop waving that dirty paper
        better look back at your country
      6. Colonel
        Colonel 5 September 2021 09: 20
        +20
        USSR attacked Poland in violation of international law

        International law was well thought out in Munich, and Poland was brewed there.
        crimes of the USSR
        It is more relevant for you now to think about the real crimes of Israel, and not about the "crimes of the USSR" invented by the reptilians
      7. Viktor Sergeev
        Viktor Sergeev 5 September 2021 12: 32
        +10
        Trying to blame your brain disease on a healthy one? This is probably the USSR imposed the Versailles Treaty on Germany, the USSR divided Czechoslovakia, the USSR developed a plan for a joint attack on the USSR. The USSR did not attack Poland, this hyena of Europe.
        Don't give a damn about the League of Nations, an unnecessary organ, a German apostate. Finland deserved what it received, it is surprising that SChtalin did not take half of their territory from them for the attack on the USSR.
        How is it in Ukraine?
      8. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 6 September 2021 12: 51
        +3
        Quote: Professor
        Are you trying to justify the crimes of the USSR? In vain. The USSR attacked Poland in violation of international law, attacked Finland for which he was expelled from the League of Nations.

        International law in times of war gives way to political and military expediency. And everywhere. Great Britain was a day late with the landing for the occupation of the north of Norway and Sweden, the neutral USA occupied the territory of Denmark, Britain and the USSR divided Iran. And what were the Allies doing with the formally neutral France ...
    2. citizen
      citizen 5 September 2021 21: 38
      -2
      Quote: mmaxx
      Recall the number when the USSR invaded. And another number when the Polish government fled Poland.

      On September 17 at 5 a.m. the USSR invaded Poland, the Polish government and president fled to Romania on the night of September 17-18.
      Quote: mmaxx
      And who did not calm down at all by the results of the Soviet-Polish war.

      The USSR lost that war, what do you think the Polish government was dissatisfied with?
      Quote: mmaxx
      I am always amused by these accusations. Poland was then a great friend of the USSR, the whole world and just a lamb - a role model in terms of peace and democracy.
      This was our FIRST enemy in the world.

      Judging by the elusive signs in the late 30s and early 40s, the main enemy was different. And the actual existence of the Polish state was beneficial to the USSR as a natural buffer between the Soviet Union and Germany.
      1. qQQQ
        qQQQ 6 September 2021 09: 12
        +1
        Quote: burger
        And the actual existence of the Polish state was beneficial to the USSR as a natural buffer between the Soviet Union and Germany.

        That's right, but when this buffer was devoured by Germany, the USSR created a new one in the form of the Western regions of Ukraine and Belarus.
        1. citizen
          citizen 6 September 2021 09: 16
          -2
          The USSR clearly did not do everything to preserve this buffer.
          1. qQQQ
            qQQQ 6 September 2021 09: 39
            +1
            Quote: burger
            The USSR clearly did not do everything to preserve this buffer.

            It may well be, but he tried.
            1. citizen
              citizen 6 September 2021 10: 18
              -2
              The agreement with Nazi Germany on the partition of Poland does not drag on efforts.
              1. qQQQ
                qQQQ 6 September 2021 10: 43
                +3
                Quote: burger
                The agreement with Nazi Germany on the partition of Poland does not drag on efforts.

                Why, Poland would have been devoured by Germany anyway. The question was where the German troops would be stationed, immediately near Smolensk or near Brest. So that the buffer turned out, another question is how they used it.
                1. Ashes of Claes
                  Ashes of Claes 6 September 2021 12: 55
                  -1
                  Quote: qqqq
                  So that the buffer turned out

                  that is, do you call your own territory a buffer? Well, well, then tell us what attitude the "buffer" population should have towards the metropolis, which, if something happens, it should "buffer".
                  1. qQQQ
                    qQQQ 6 September 2021 14: 03
                    +2
                    Quote: Ashes of Klaas
                    that is, do you call your own territory a buffer?

                    Why not. The fact that they pushed the border as far west as possible, no one then or now does not hide. And the border lands have always been the buffer of any state.
                2. citizen
                  citizen 6 September 2021 21: 40
                  -1
                  Stalin played the game of "mind me", trying to direct Hitler to the west. Perhaps the West was playing the same game, trying to head east. So before the catastrophe of 41 years were played, having remained practically one-on-one with Germany, which had seized all the resources of Europe. This treaty indulged Germany's aggressive aspirations.
              2. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 6 September 2021 13: 16
                +3
                Quote: burger
                The agreement with Nazi Germany on the partition of Poland does not drag on efforts.

                And what to do if the Reich is the only one who took the USSR seriously and did not send a delegation of second-rate politicians without authority to negotiations?
                The agreement requires the will of both parties. And when one of them immediately declares that she does not want
                ... to be embroiled in any specific obligation that could tie our hands under any circumstances. Therefore, with regard to a military agreement, one should strive to limit itself to as general as possible
                , and even informs the Reich that the negotiations
                they are only a reserve means for genuine reconciliation with Germany and that these ties will disappear as soon as the only important and worthy goal is really achieved — an agreement with Germany
                then the outcome of such negotiations is determined even before they begin. The USSR, with all its desire, could not even try for the Allies.

                And, by the way, why did the USSR have to keep Poland, which already had such powerful defenders - the victorious armies of the last World War?
                1. citizen
                  citizen 6 September 2021 21: 44
                  -2
                  I do not know what to do, but to be alone with Nazi Germany, which has grown many times over since 39, and to have a catastrophe in 41, is, in my opinion, a foreign policy failure.
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  And, by the way, why did the USSR have to keep Poland, which already had such powerful defenders - the victorious armies of the last World War?

                  To have a buffer state and prevent the invasion of Nazi armies.
                  1. stalkerwalker
                    stalkerwalker 6 September 2021 22: 08
                    0
                    Quote: burger
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    And, by the way, why did the USSR have to keep Poland, which already had such powerful defenders - the victorious armies of the last World War?

                    To have a buffer state and prevent the invasion of Nazi armies

                    In 1938, during the Czechoslovak crisis, Poland categorically refused to give a corridor for the passage of the Red Army, as required by the triple agreement between France, the USSR and Czechoslovakia.
                    Germany, in turn, considered Poland a situational ally, the benefits of which disappeared with the signing of the Munich agreement.
                    All the years of the existence of the USSR by that time, starting from 1917, relations with Poland were in a state between war and armed neutrality. And the military doctrine of the then Soviet leadership was built on the basis of an inevitable war with Poland, Romania, Finland and the Baltic countries.
                    In 1934, Poland, having concluded a military treaty with Germany, only strengthened the possibility of a war with the USSR in alliance with Germany. The Soviet-Polish section of the border was the most "hot", the Polish defensive was active in the western regions of the USSR, actively recruiting both former Polish citizens in the ranks of the command staff of the Red Army, and their wives and relatives.
                    What kind of "buffer" can we talk about? It is like today to consider Ukraine as a "buffer" between Russia and NATO.
                2. Liam
                  Liam 6 September 2021 22: 08
                  -4
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  And what to do if the Reich is the only one who took the USSR seriously

                  In terms of agreeing with Comrade Stalin to divide the territories of 5 countries among themselves? Then yes ... the French and the British in this regard were not very serious
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  delegation of second-rate politicians without powers?

                  Well, yes ... all this rotten democracy ... negotiations, approvals in parliamentary commissions, voting, opposition, press. Is it Hitler? guys, they decide everything quickly and according to concepts.
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  The agreement requires the will of both parties

                  Undoubtedly, the high contracting parties showed great will, divided their neighbors and after a year and a half, they just as decisively threw their peoples into the furnace in a war against each other.
                  Quote: Alexey RA

                  And by the way, why did the USSR have to keep Poland

                  That's really really ... different Poles / Romanians / Balts get confused forever under their feet. They interfere with geostrategists in their breakthroughs to the Volga (English Channel)
                  1. stalkerwalker
                    stalkerwalker 6 September 2021 22: 15
                    +2
                    Quote: Liam
                    Quote: Alexey RA

                    And by the way, why did the USSR have to keep Poland

                    That's really really ... different Poles / Romanians / Balts get confused forever under their feet. They interfere with geostrategists in their breakthroughs to the Volga (English Channel)

                    The classic version of the current liberal criticism in the spirit of "And it was necessary to close in the ground, and shoot at the advancing fascist from the three-line. And there would be no defeat of the Red Army And the German would not have reached either Moscow or the Volga" ...
                  2. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 7 September 2021 09: 59
                    +2
                    Quote: Liam
                    That's really really ... different Poles / Romanians / Balts get confused forever under their feet. They interfere with geostrategists in their breakthroughs to the Volga (English Channel)

                    You did not understand. The question was different: why the USSR, not bound by any treaties, had to keep Poland, if those who had all international obligations did not want to do this and did not do it?
                    1. Liam
                      Liam 7 September 2021 13: 21
                      -3
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      The question was different: why the USSR, not bound by any treaties, should have kept Poland

                      How much pathos)
                      The USSR was not supposed to save anyone. It simply had to respect its own Treaty with Poland from 32 years old and not conclude treaties with Hitler on the attack and partition of Poland and then not attack Poland and not appropriate its territory. No heroism and sacrifices were required. Just behave like a normal country.
                    2. Liam
                      Liam 7 September 2021 13: 52
                      -2
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      why the USSR, not bound by any treaties,



                      The 1932 Polish-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact (Polish Pakt o nieagresji Polska - ZSRR) is an interstate treaty between Poland and the USSR, concluded in 1932. Signed "with the aim of developing and supplementing the Treaty signed in Paris on August 27, 1928", to preserve peaceful relations between the parties and peace in Europe. On September 17, 1939, the USSR recognized this treaty as null and void.
                  3. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 7 September 2021 10: 08
                    +2
                    Quote: Liam
                    In terms of agreeing with Comrade Stalin to divide the territories of 5 countries among themselves?

                    Offer your option to help Poland in an attack on her by Germany - without bringing troops into its territory. Is it menacing to jump abroad, puff out your cheeks and shake your fists? So it was already - in 1938, against the background of a similar performance performed by the USSR, the Reich calmly devoured Czechoslovakia.
                    Quote: Liam
                    Well, yes ... all this rotten democracy ... negotiations, approvals in parliamentary commissions, voting, opposition, press.

                    Again: the French delegation had the authority only to negotiate, and the British delegation had no written authority at all... And with this the Allies enter into negotiations to determine the fate of Europe.
                    Spanish ski instructor. ©
                    Quote: Liam
                    The high contracting parties showed remarkable will, divided their neighbors and after a year and a half, they just as decisively threw their peoples into the furnace in a war against each other.

                    And before that, other high contracting parties showed remarkable will and sent delegations, indicating to them that they did not want
                    to be drawn into any specific obligation that could tie our hands under any circumstance. Therefore, with regard to a military agreement, one should strive to limit itself to as general as possible

                    Geniuses ... cho.
                    1. Liam
                      Liam 7 September 2021 13: 36
                      -3
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      Offer your option to help Poland in an attack on her by Germany - without bringing troops into its territory.

                      Again 25. There was no need to help or attack. Not to negotiate with Hitler about a joint attack and partition. Is it so difficult? Poland has its own army, its allies, let them figure it out for themselves, especially since without a treaty with Stalin, Hitler would not have attacked Poland
                      Quote: Alexey RA

                      Once again: the French delegation had the authority only to negotiate

                      So what? In normal countries, negotiations are carried out. Initially, delegations of technical workers (working groups) discuss, consult, inform governments, parliament. Then the draft agreement goes through all the authorities and only then it is signed by the top officials at the official summit. And then ratification is made. parliament)
                      This is with Hitler and Stalin, everything is simple - I want something and turn with whomever I want. In normal countries, this is not done.
                      So no need to be hypocritical. What Stalin wanted - foreign territories and strangers, no one except Hitler could give him. And the level of authority of delegations is absolutely irrelevant here.
                      By the way, what kind of haste Stalin had to conclude an agreement precisely quickly and precisely in August 39? It is clear why Hitler was in a hurry to get to the war before the fall and quickly defeat Poland so that England and France would not have time to react and open a second front in the West. But where was Stalin in a hurry?)
                    2. Alexey RA
                      Alexey RA 7 September 2021 15: 34
                      0
                      Quote: Liam
                      Again 25. There was no need to help or attack. Not to negotiate with Hitler about a joint attack and partition. Is it so difficult? Poland has its own army, its allies, let them figure it out.

                      How is it in real life? wink
                      It will be the same, only the border with the Reich will pass much to the east.
                      Quote: Liam
                      Moreover, without a treaty with Stalin, Hitler would not have attacked Poland

                      Seriously? Hitler would not have attacked if the Allies had signed a treaty with the USSR. But they would not have done this before the start of the war, since they would have continued to play “don't say yes and no”.
                      And in a situation of a neutral and not bound by treaties of the USSR, the Reich attacks Poland 100% - only the situation of a formalized union of the USSR and the Allies is dangerous for it. Moreover, in Germany everything is already ready for war - since July, pre-mobilization measures have been underway, including partial mobilization.
                      Quote: Liam
                      In normal countries, negotiations are carried out. Initially, delegations of technical workers (working groups) discuss, consult, inform governments, parliament. Then the draft agreement goes through all the authorities and only then it is signed by the top officials at the official summit. And then ratification is made. parliament)

                      That is, in normal countries it is customary to send for military negotiations with the NGSH and the commander of the Navy of another state working groupsthat have no written authority at all? wink
                      Quote: Liam
                      By the way, what kind of haste Stalin had to conclude an agreement precisely quickly and precisely in August 39? It is understandable why Hitler was in a hurry to get to the war before the fall and quickly defeat Poland so that England and France would not have time to react and open a second front in the West. But where was Stalin in a hurry?

                      To the same place, where Poland was in a hurry during the time of Munich: if you can't prevent it, join. smile Since the fate of Poland has already been decided, it is necessary at least from an unfeeling body take off gypsum lost in the 20's territory.
                      In addition, it was necessary to play it safe so as not to be next after Poland.
                    3. Liam
                      Liam 7 September 2021 16: 21
                      -2
                      Quote: Alexey RA

                      To the same place, where Poland was in a hurry during the time of Munich: if you can't prevent it, join. Since the fate of Poland has already been decided, it is necessary at least to remove the plaster of paris lost in the 20s from the insensible body.
                      In addition, it was necessary to play it safe so as not to be next after Poland.

                      )))
                      In plain language, this is called looting.
                      And he insured himself for the glory of Comrade Stalin. Right up to the Volga. 2/3 of the country in ruins and tens of millions of dead. Nothing to say, the best strategist of all times and peoples. However, it is difficult to expect anything from a half-educated theological seminary except for short-sighted marauding. He was certainly a genius. -but only surrounded by associates from the Politburo. Against the background of their three classes, he looked almost literate)
                      Less than a year later, the genius was shaking from every rustle at the border ... as if Hitler was not to be provoked. He was shaking and doomed to expect an attack, self-deceiving and deceiving the environment and the country that until England fell, Hitler would not attack. And the others believed, well, he could not our torch and genius will burst so badly.
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      How is it in real life?
                      It will be the same, only the border with the Reich will pass much to the east.

                      Maybe. But your country will not be an aggressor and marauder in relation to its neighbors. And the same Finns and Romanians will not send their armies to 41 either.
                      As for the new territories, their use was only in the fact that the Germans passed them in a week and in these territories the entire first strategic echelon burned down in boilers almost instantly.
                    4. Liam
                      Liam 7 September 2021 16: 38
                      -1
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      having no written authority at all?

                      Authority for what? To surrender to Stalin Finland, the Baltic states, half of Poland and Bessarabia? They really did not have such powers. Or are you ready to seriously argue that Stalin was interested in something else in August 39? These desires could only be fulfilled by Hitler, which happened in real life. The rest are fairy tales for the poor. And these desires, by the way, Hitler was ready to execute only at that moment. Our genius burst out then and did not agree on Bulgaria. And when a year later he hinted about this, Hitler mocked offering to wash his boots in the Indian Ocean in exchange. The train left, the Führer no longer needed him. Piece of Finland, putting several armies in the ground, the peripheral Baltic states and the poorest parts of Poland and Rum - all that the great geostrategist achieved when entering the international arena.
  2. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 6 September 2021 12: 59
    +1
    Quote: burger
    And the actual existence of the Polish state was beneficial to the USSR as a natural buffer between the Soviet Union and Germany.

    Only in one case - if Poland were neutral. And in real life, instead of a buffer, we first had a potential ally of the Reich, and after the Danzig discord - an ally of the Allies.
    The very Allies who first merged Czechoslovakia, and then staged a comedy with "negotiations on an alliance against the Reich", sending a delegation, one part of which did not have the authority to sign anything, and the other did not have any authority at all.
    So Poland was not a buffer for the USSR, but an ally of potential adversaries.
    1. citizen
      citizen 6 September 2021 21: 58
      -2
      I just can't imagine what the situation could be even worse than it had developed by the summer of 41. This is a failure of foreign policy.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 7 September 2021 09: 57
        +2
        Quote: burger
        I just can't imagine what the situation could be even worse than it had developed by the summer of 41.

        The first is the complete occupation of Poland by the Reich, shifting the initial lines of the Wehrmacht's offensive even further to the east. The second is the participation of Poland in the campaign to the East.
        Quote: burger
        This is a failure of foreign policy.

        This is the defeat of the Allies in the West.
        1. citizen
          citizen 7 September 2021 22: 12
          0
          There was such a plan by Schlieffen. Germany's strategic plan in WWI, how to defeat its opponents one by one.
          Kaiser Wilhelm II described it as follows:

          We will have lunch in Paris, and dinner in St. Petersburg.


          The bottom line was that Germany, until Russia mobilized and did not seriously enter the war, would defeat France with all her might, and then throw all her forces on Russia. It didn't work out then.
          But in 39-41 the Germans managed to brilliantly bring this plan to life, largely thanks to this pact.
          Germany used these 22 months clearly more productively than the USSR.
          Quote: Alexey RA
          The first is the complete occupation of Poland by the Reich, shifting the initial lines of the Wehrmacht's offensive even further to the east.

          The Wehrmacht passed these territories in 5 days and did not fundamentally affect the course of hostilities. The enemy is stopped not by the territory, but by the troops.
          Quote: Alexey RA
          The second is the participation of Poland in the campaign to the East.

          It would have ended for Poland in about the same way as cooperation with Nazi Germany ended for the USSR. "Living space in the east" included Poland.

          Quote: Alexey RA
          This is the defeat of the Allies in the West.

          Judging by elusive signs, this did not meet the interests of the USSR.
    2. Liam
      Liam 7 September 2021 13: 45
      -2
      Quote: Alexey RA
      we first had a potential ally of the Reich, and after the Danzig strife, an ally of the Allies.

      With such a sick logic, you can calmly attack whoever you want, whenever you want, and suddenly he will attack you someday.
      Go and kill your neighbor, otherwise he might someday want to kill you himself. Let's see if the court acquits you with such motivation)
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 7 September 2021 15: 41
        +2
        Quote: Liam
        With such a sick logic, you can calmly attack whoever you want, whenever you want, and suddenly he will attack you someday.
        Go and kill your neighbor, otherwise he might someday want to kill you himself. Let's see if the court acquits you with such motivation)

        War criminals are determined by the winners. ©
        Nobody began to judge the leadership of France and Britain for attempting to seize neutral Norway and Sweden. And they were guilty only of the fact that the Allies wanted to deprive the Reich of iron ore.
        1. Liam
          Liam 7 September 2021 17: 25
          -2
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Nobody began to judge the leadership of France and Britain for attempting to seize neutral Norway and Sweden.

          How interesting. It somehow passed my attention. Can you briefly describe the vicissitudes of the Anglo-French aggression against Norway and Sweden? And the main battles between them
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 9 September 2021 11: 36
            +2
            Quote: Liam
            How interesting. It somehow passed my attention. Can you briefly describe the vicissitudes of the Anglo-French aggression against Norway and Sweden? And the main battles between them

            Operation Plan R 4. The Germans with their Operation Weserübung were ahead of the British by only a day - at the time of its start, the first echelon of the British occupation forces (Royal Lincolnshire Regiment) had already been loaded on the CD Berwick, York, Devonshire and Glasgow in Roseyth. The second echelon was loading at the Clyde.
            However, part of Plan R 4 was completed - the Wilfred operation to mine Norwegian territorial waters.
            Actually, it was Plan R 4 that prevented the RN from quickly responding to the German landing operation: the naval EMs were engaged in the Wilfred operation, and the cruisers had to unload the landing forces first.
  • Borz
    Borz 5 September 2021 06: 58
    +15
    Is Germany exactly an ally in the broadest sense of the word, or just a partner in the NATO bloc? I mean the material claims of the Poles against the FRG, restitution and rather cool relations between the countries in general. Something very doubtful that Germany, in which case, violently rushed into a fight on the side of Poland.
    And the Union invaded Poland after the flight of its leaders, and some of the territories lost by the Russian Empire had to be returned. So they took advantage of the moment, "picked up the fallen and put it in their pocket."
  • Gardamir
    Gardamir 5 September 2021 06: 59
    +12
    No, not the same.
    You seem to be threatening Russia.
    And the Second World War began on September 30 with the conclusion of the Munich Treaty. This Treaty launched the Nazi occupation of all of Europe.
  • Old electrician
    Old electrician 5 September 2021 07: 09
    +24
    The author forgot that Nazi Germany was not alone in the war in Poland. The USSR invaded Poland from the east.
    - the author has not forgotten, but you are lying.
    On December 8, 1919, the Supreme Council of the Entente designated the "Curzon Line" as the eastern border of Poland. In the summer of 1920, Poland officially recognized it. However, by this time she had territorial claims to everyone without exception: Germany, Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania and other countries that were not even neighboring, for example, Finland. It was the project of Pilsudski "Intermarium" - Poland within the borders of the Adriatic, Black and Baltic seas.
    In 1920, the Poles planned to take Moscow, but only reached Kiev. Then there was a miracle under the Vistula ... After the conclusion of the Riga Treaty in 1921, Poland, contrary to the Versailles Treaty, chopped off the territories of Ukraine and Belarus, far beyond the Curzon line. The only diplomatic act confirming the belonging of these lands to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth is the Riga Treaty. The anti-Soviet League of Nations naturally ignored this violation of the Versailles Treaty.
    On September 17, 1939, the Polish government was interned in Romania. Poland as a subject of international law ceased to exist and the Riga Treaty lost its force. Therefore, the USSR's accession to the Curzon Line was perceived by all and, first of all, by the "guarantors" of Poland's territorial integrity - France and England - as the natural right of the USSR to own its TERRITORY. Accordingly, unlike Germany, the war against the USSR was not declared by the "guarantors", since they had no legal reason for this and would have been perceived in the world as unmotivated aggression.
    1. Ashes of Claes
      Ashes of Claes 5 September 2021 13: 50
      -2
      Quote: Old electrician
      On December 8, 1919, the Supreme Council of the Entente designated the "Curzon Line" as the eastern border of Poland.

      Dear, just above you wrote that the border of Poland is determined by the Treaty of Versailles:
      Quote: Old electrician
      since its eastern border was determined by the Treaty of Versailles along the Curzon line.

      You will decide. And it was not "defined", but only recommended.
      Quote: Old electrician
      In the summer of 1920, Poland officially recognized it

      And you don't have a question why she delayed for six months with the "recognition"? After all, Poland ignored the recommendations of the Entente on demarcation for an elementary reason - things were going very well, and Pilsudski's plans extended much further than the line drawn by the Entente. For an absolutely similar reason, the Soviet government rejected Curzon's note in July 1920 - the situation is mirror-like, isn't it? Things are good - yes nafig your line, like a rooster pecked - oh-oh, let's get back to the discussion.
      Quote: Old electrician
      On September 17, 1939, the Polish government was interned in Romania.

      September 18th, according to the Romanian communiqué, you know. On the night of 16-17, when Potemkin presented the famous note to Grzybowski, the government was still in Poland.
      Quote: Old electrician
      Therefore, the USSR's accession to the Curzon Line was perceived by all and, first of all, by the "guarantors" of Poland's territorial integrity - France and England - as the natural right of the USSR to own its TERRITORY.

      There is nothing unusual in the position of England and France. And it's not about "the USSR's right to own ITS TERRITORY" - it's all lyrics. Declaring war on the USSR means creating a military alliance between Germany and the USSR with your own hands and practically giving the Reich access to unlimited resources. And such a block would be invincible. All this is due to the political surrender in Munich - Chamberlain and Co. fed the beast - they got "both shame and war" situations?
  • hohol95
    hohol95 5 September 2021 08: 09
    +12
    It is you, dear, who have denounced the main ally of the Germans during the attack on Polish Poland - the Sloviks!
    Slovakia, under the "leadership" of Tiso, put 51306 people in 3 divisions against the Poles. And they entered the war on September 1, 1939.
    You will argue about the Slovaks ???
  • parusnik
    parusnik 5 September 2021 08: 11
    +9
    On September 1, 1939, the troops of Germany and the USSR simultaneously invaded Poland, according to a joint plan developed by the General Staffs of Germany and the USSR?
  • 210ox
    210ox 5 September 2021 09: 35
    +7
    Oh yes! Germany. They had a peace treaty with Germany then. About NATO. And everything else is overseas. Georgia and Afghanistan to help you. That's all there is to know about the Alliance and NATO.
  • Vol4ara
    Vol4ara 5 September 2021 10: 45
    +6
    Quote: Professor

    No, not the same. Now Poland has Germany as an ally, and a dozen more NATO countries.

    The USSR invaded when Poland had already lost, so that it had absolutely no effect on the duration of the war, and by the way, it was right to invade.
    Regarding allies - yeah, also Turkey ... Such allies that you don't need enemies
    1. Alf
      Alf 5 September 2021 19: 24
      +4
      Quote: Vol4ara
      The USSR invaded when Poland had already lost,

      Not this way.
      USSR Didn't invade when Poland had already LOST.
      The USSR entered the territory where the state no longer existed.
  • mikh-korsakov
    mikh-korsakov 5 September 2021 17: 49
    +5
    Oleg. 1. Germany entered Poland on September 1. The USSR entered Poland on September 17, when Poland was already defeated. 2. Poland in fact declared itself an enemy of the USSR 20 years before the invasion of Germany, and they do not stand on ceremony with their enemies, they are defeated on occasion. 3. The Russian Federation is not going to attack Poland in the foreseeable future. 4. After America left Afghanistan, it would be wrong to consider allies to anyone with anyone. By the way, the facts of history prove it. France could well have helped Poland by striking Germany from the west, having an overwhelming advantage on the border with Germany. But!!!
    1. Ashes of Claes
      Ashes of Claes 6 September 2021 08: 26
      -5
      Quote: mikh-korsakov
      The USSR entered Poland on September 17, when Poland was already defeated.

      was not.
      Quote: mikh-korsakov
      Poland in fact declared itself an enemy of the USSR 20 years before the German invasion

      Iron logic. If we follow it, then the actions of Hungary and Poland, which grabbed their pieces from the Czechoslovakia in 1938, are fully justified. After all, 20 years ago they fought for them, these pieces, didn't they? After all
      Quote: mikh-korsakov
      and they do not stand on ceremony with enemies, they are defeated on occasion.

      by any means. Or is it something else again?
      1. qQQQ
        qQQQ 6 September 2021 09: 18
        0
        Quote: Ashes of Klaas
        Iron logic. If we follow it, then the actions of Hungary and Poland, which grabbed their pieces from the Czechoslovakia in 1938, are fully justified. After all, 20 years ago they fought for them, these pieces, didn't they? After all

        The logic must be consistent. First, Hungary and Poland grabbed their piece and swallowed it all, and then following the logic that these actions are the norm, the USSR took its toll from Poland. Be accurate in the chronology of events.
        1. Ashes of Claes
          Ashes of Claes 6 September 2021 12: 24
          -2
          Quote: qqqq
          The logic must be consistent.

          The logic is simple must be... And in your design
          - Poland participated in the division of the ChSR - it is bad, it is the hyena of Europe.
          - The USSR participated in the partition of Poland - it is good, "took its toll", following the precedent set by bad Poland

          I do not see it. Such a weird double standard coordinate system?
          1. qQQQ
            qQQQ 6 September 2021 14: 00
            0
            Quote: Ashes of Klaas
            I do not see it. Such a weird double standard coordinate system?

            I did not write that the USSR was good in this case, I assert that the USSR followed the example of Poland. Since no one condemned her actions, a precedent was created on how to act, according to it, they acted. In the modern world it is like with Kosovo.
            1. Ashes of Claes
              Ashes of Claes 6 September 2021 14: 51
              0
              Quote: qqqq
              I did not write that the USSR is good in this case,

              In this case, I am glad that you are not an apologist for this design)
              Interbellum is a very difficult and dynamic period, it cannot be reduced to the stupid formula "Stalin did everything right, and all the rest are fools and scoundrels." I notice that many are lacking basic impartiality here.
  • Alf
    Alf 5 September 2021 19: 16
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    Now Poland has an ally

    And from time to time Poland runs into Germany with another demand to pay for something. A very, to put it mildly, stupid position. If you depend on a neighbor and seriously count on his help, then you should not bend your fingers at him.
  • Zakirov Damir
    Zakirov Damir 5 September 2021 22: 59
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    The author forgot that Nazi Germany was not alone in the war in Poland. The USSR invaded Poland from the east. Poland didn't stand a chance.

    Why is there so much attention to the fourth and not to the first partition of Poland? Just think, got fucked again - Poland is no stranger to it!

    Germany and Russia have Poles, Poles have Jews, Jews have Palestinians. Everyone has each other according to the established food chain. And where has it been seen that a wolf or a bear makes excuses before a sheep?

    And so I want to feel like a beast again - a hyena, for example! Again, a hyena, though a serious beast, is a scavenger!
  • Catfish
    Catfish 5 September 2021 06: 38
    +19
    The first shots in World War II were fired by the German battleship Schleswig-Holstein. Having entered the roadstead of Gdynia (Danzig), the ship anchored and at 04:47 am on September 1, "Schleswig-Holstein" opened fire from its guns at the Polish positions in Westerplatte, the battleship commander Vice-Admiral Gustav Kleikamp "could not resist" and opened fire ahead of the prescribed time.

    "Schleswig-Holstein" is firing at Westerplatte.
    1. SERGE ANT
      SERGE ANT 5 September 2021 07: 17
      +14
      And if you poke around, then at 4:30 in the morning on September 1, a pistol shot rang out on the German training battleship Schleswig-Holstein, which gave the signal to prepare for battle ... But he did not find who made it - the officer of the watch or Gustav Kleikamp himself. A few minutes later , the old German ship "Schleswig-Holstein" fired the first shot of the new war, opening fire on the Polish naval base. while on the border of Poland, a special operation "Canned food" was carried out to seize a radio station in the German border town of Gleiwitz. A group of SS men and prisoners taken from concentration camps and who knew Polish were disguised as Polish soldiers and officers and attacked and seized a radio station in Gleiwitz. After gaining access to the broadcast, in front of the switched on microphone, several shots were fired and phrases in Polish directed against Germany were uttered. The whole operation took no more than 31 minutes, although these are all trifles - firing from naval guns, like the first shots of a war, sounds more weighty and solid than shots from small arms.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 5 September 2021 07: 56
        +12
        Hello Serge! hi
        ... attacked and seized a radio station in Gleiwitz.

        The man who was the immediate commander in the operation to seize the radio station in Gleiwitz after the war published the book "Operation Gleiwitz, or How I Started World War II", the book was eaten and published in the Union. The man's name was Alfred Natsjoks, he was then Sturmbannführer SS and served in the SD.

        I will not go into details, whoever wants to read it himself, and even better will watch the film of the DEFA film studio "Operation Gleiwitz", everything is clearly shown there.

        1. hohol95
          hohol95 5 September 2021 08: 19
          +15

          They also forgot about these "kids".
          But as always. And then there was nothing of them - 3 divisions (51306 souls).
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 5 September 2021 09: 18
            +7
            Alexey, hi. hi
            And what are these guys? Not Slovaks, by any chance?
            1. hohol95
              hohol95 5 September 2021 09: 42
              +8
              They are the most!
              Only about them, as is usually forgotten.
              And Poland itself makes claims only from Germany and the Russian Federation, and "does not see Slovaks at close range"!
              1. ee2100
                ee2100 5 September 2021 09: 50
                +10
                Good morning!
                You do not understand, this is completely different.
                For participation in the seizure of Poland, the Slovaks received a piece of Polish territory of 700 sq. Km
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 5 September 2021 10: 17
                  +6
                  "At least a tuft of wool from a black sheep!" (C) laughing

                  Hi Sasha! smile
                  1. ee2100
                    ee2100 5 September 2021 10: 41
                    +5
                    Hi Kostya!
                    The Poles behaved very arrogantly before the war, they hoped for the allies, and so they paid.
                    Now the situation is very similar, especially in relation to Belarus.
                    The US surrender in Afghanistan showed that the allies are unlikely to help.
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 5 September 2021 10: 56
                      +10
                      They also cut off the Teshin region from the Czech Republic - the operation was called "Zaluzhie". It was a developed industrial region, where 80 thousand Poles and 120 thousand Czechs lived.
                      1. ee2100
                        ee2100 5 September 2021 11: 03
                        +6
                        I say that the Poles are playing too! And now they are rattling their weapons in the hope of NATO.
                        There is such a situation, or rather a simple two-move.
                        Since the beginning of the 90s, the Balts and at the end of the reign of Kaczynski and the Poles have been persistently trying to equate the Nazi regime in Germany and the Soviet regime in the USSR and to recognize this at the legislative level. Some stupidly work off the money, and some foolishly.
                        Beneficiary, as well as the manager of this whole circus Germany.
                        We admitted it, we level it, and now let's revise the results of WW2. Poland will have to lose part of its territory. It is clear that there will be claims to Lithuania and Belarus and the Kaliningrad region will be remembered.
                      2. hohol95
                        hohol95 5 September 2021 12: 23
                        +5
                        They did not forget about the Kaliningrad region.
                        There were several articles in the media about working with the local population on the subject of "the good life of the region outside the Russian Federation"!
                      3. ee2100
                        ee2100 5 September 2021 12: 42
                        +6
                        In the 90s, the Germans bought, as a rule, houses and estates that belonged to their relatives, Putin forbade this.
                      4. hohol95
                        hohol95 5 September 2021 13: 15
                        +5
                        "German-Russian House". NGOs. The most active in this "direction" impact on the local population.
                      5. ee2100
                        ee2100 5 September 2021 14: 09
                        +5
                        Normal business. In the Kaliningrad region, many, as they say, have never been to Russia. People go to Poland to buy groceries, and spend weekends there.
                        As the locals told me, if you hold a referendum on secession from the Russian Federation, then it is not yet known how the population will vote
                      6. hohol95
                        hohol95 5 September 2021 15: 34
                        +4
                        The population of the GDR rejoiced at the merger with the FRG! Has life gotten any better ???
                        In the same way, residents of the Kaliningrad region must first be "brainwashed" very hard ...
                        In order not to be below the level of refugees from Muslim countries!
                      7. ee2100
                        ee2100 5 September 2021 17: 23
                        +1
                        In general, residents of the former GDR live better than residents of the Kaliningrad region.
                        In general, this question is purely rhetorical.
                      8. hohol95
                        hohol95 5 September 2021 18: 14
                        +3
                        So my uncle, living in Germany, probably lives better than me (his nephew) and his brother (my father). But, however, he made a pension in the Russian Federation too! And he regularly comes to receive it!
                        At the same time, I cannot compare. I have never been to the aisles of the USSR and the Russian Federation. He did not work or live there!
                        For this reason, I do not presume to assert, "in which land it is fun, at ease ..." and so on! hi
        2. Ashes of Claes
          Ashes of Claes 5 September 2021 14: 15
          +3
          Quote: Sea Cat
          They also cut off the Teshin region from the Czech Republic

          Well, the story with Teshin doesn't have to start from 1938. Shards of Austria-Hungary started bickering among themselves in 1919, actually. And the Czechs, whom it is customary here to pity in chorus and write down as victims of aggression, ratted no worse than the others. And to be specific - take a closer look at the events of 1919 - the Hungarian-Czech war (Subcarpathian Rus went to the Czechs), the Czech-Polish war (Teshin went to the Czechs). There are no clear demarcations - the borders recommended by the Entente have been repeatedly violated and moved. The Czechs began to declare their territorial claims already in 1918. So, there is no need to talk about the inviolability of the borders drawn after the collapse of empires. In addition, Masaryk's sweet blackmail that the Czechs will help Soviet Russia by acting on its side against the Poles in 1920, if the Poles do not give up the fuss around Teshin, is far from evidence of political cleanliness. So - everyone is good there. And the Czechs returned like a boomerang.
  • hohol95
    hohol95 5 September 2021 10: 44
    +5
    good it was "completely different" ...
  • Avior
    Avior 5 September 2021 10: 43
    +5
    Controlled by the Third Reich, the "First Slovak Republic" (1939-1945) and the modern Slovak Republic (since 1993) are different states that are not legally connected.
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 5 September 2021 12: 21
      +2
      And historically ???
      And the population became different ???
      1. Avior
        Avior 5 September 2021 13: 41
        +1
        Compensation is demanded not from an abstract population, but from a specific state.
        And the population is different - 80 years have passed, generations have changed ...
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 5 September 2021 13: 43
          +3
          So the Federal Republic of Germany is not the Third Reich ...
          And the Russian Federation is not the USSR.
          Then what's the catch?
          Or does modern Slovakia not consider itself the successor of that Slovakia?
          It’s so simple - we are not them, and therefore don’t bother us !!!
          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 5 September 2021 14: 26
            0
            Quote: hohol95
            So the Federal Republic of Germany is not the Third Reich ...
            And the Russian Federation is not the USSR.
            Then what's the catch?
            Or does modern Slovakia not consider itself the successor of that Slovakia?
            It’s so simple - we are not them, and therefore don’t bother us !!!

            Don't look for logic in this. He's a Ukrainian, he's got a full pot of Etodrugin.
          2. Avior
            Avior 5 September 2021 14: 32
            +3
            They are recognized successors.
            Unlike Slovakia, which from 1945 to 1993 was part of Czechoslovakia (moreover, until 1968 Czechoslovakia was a unitary country)
            and did not exist as a separate state.
            The first Slovak Republic did not leave an officially recognized legal successor registered by other countries.
          3. hohol95
            hohol95 5 September 2021 15: 37
            +1
            I did not leave a legal successor ...
            These are trifles - "you can do it and you can do that!"
            The gentlemen would have a desire.
  • Alf
    Alf 5 September 2021 19: 25
    0
    Quote: hohol95
    and Slovaks "does not see at close range"!

    And there is nothing to take from them ...
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 5 September 2021 19: 46
      +1
      How is there nothing, but the territory?
      And the Slovaks are barefoot in the dew further across the EU ...
      1. Alf
        Alf 5 September 2021 20: 23
        +2
        Quote: hohol95
        How is there nothing, but the territory?
        And the Slovaks are barefoot in the dew further across the EU ...

        Yes, the most realistic option.
  • The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 5 September 2021 08: 34
    +2
    Good morning, Constantine.
    As for the Polish Army specifically, the Poles had a pretty good army in quantity and quality.
    This phrase amused me ...
    I am a land man, but I know that the quality of the ground forces and the Polish Air Force at that time was actually lower than the one indicated by the author.
    The guns are the backlog of the First World War.
    Tanks and wedges are the bulk of outdated models and, again, tanks of the First World War.
    Lack of vehicles. And so you can continue on almost all points.
    Well, in the Navy, I also don't remember battleships and battleships.
    So with the "support" of England and France, Poland would have held out for a couple of weeks longer, even if it had mobilized. With a bayonet on the "panzer" it will not work very effectively.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 5 September 2021 09: 17
      +5
      Igor, hello! hi
      Yes, they didn’t have very much armored vehicles, basically the same 6-ton Vickers and Carden-Lloyd tankettes, I don’t even remember that the Germans would somehow use armored vehicles captured from the Poles.
      The fleet consisted of quite modern ships - four destroyers (French and English buildings), five submarines (French and Dutch buildings), one mine-loader and one destroyer, the rest is a trifle.
      I won't say about aviation, I just don't know.
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 5 September 2021 09: 46
        +6
        The fleet was created only for "interaction with the allies".
        Even the border boat "Batory" was able to dump to Sweden.
        Destroyers to Britain.
        Due to "poverty" the Poles exported aircraft better than they had in their own Air Force.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 5 September 2021 10: 15
          +9
          The fleet was created only for "interaction with the allies".


          Oddly enough, but he also interacted.
          Polish ships were in Norway, near Dunkirk, in Normandy, etc. On their account 1210 000 miles of military campaigns, 787 convoys, 1162 combat exits.
          1. SERGE ANT
            SERGE ANT 5 September 2021 11: 00
            +5
            If the Polish navy had some influence on the course of hostilities during the occupation of the country by Germany, both directly, destroying as many as four German sailors during the battle on September 2 of Polish ships with German destroyers, and indirectly, their sinking required the participation of several dozen Luftwaffe aircraft. which, therefore, were not used in other sectors of the front (however, the Poles write about 2 shot down "Junkers", but the Germans refute this), the river ships did not fire a single shot at the enemy at all and were heroically flooded by their crews. The flotilla was based at the military river port in Pinsk and consisted of 6 river monitors armed with 4 7,5―10-cm guns, as well as anti-aircraft guns and machine guns, 12 river gunboats, armed steamers and 30 motor boats, several seaplanes and gliders ... According to various sources, there were 41 officers and 1422 sub-officers and sailors in the flotilla. Not all were captured - before the capitulation, General Frantisek Kleeberg (1888-1941), who assumed command of the Polish units in the East, "allowed" those who were born in Polesie to return home, which many took advantage of. Monitor "Krakow" under the command of Captain Jerzy Wojciechowski (Wojciechowski Jerzy; 1915–2013) on September 17 went to the east and covered the withdrawal of the border brigade to the southwest. By September 20, the ship returned to Pinsk, where at that time Soviet tanks had already entered.
            After the fall of Poland, the scattered ships of the Polish Navy, which escaped death and internment, came under the operational command of the British Admiralty, while retaining their crews and national flags. Already in the summer of 1940, the "Polish fleet under British control" received the first replenishment - at the expense of French ships captured in British ports in July of the same year. They were followed by the ships of the British fleet - in just the years of the war, the Polish flag was hoisted over two cruisers, three destroyers, three destroyer escorts, three submarines and 10 TKA of the British fleet.
            1. SERGE ANT
              SERGE ANT 5 September 2021 11: 04
              +5
              Cruiser ORP "Dragon" (formerly HMS "Dragon")

              On January 15, 1943, the ceremony of transferring the cruiser to Poland for temporary use during the war took place. Svirsky decided not to change the English name of the cruiser (the first Polish warship, the galleon "Smok" - that is, a Polish-style dragon, built in 1571 at a shipyard in Elite, East Prussia) had a similar name. Only the abbreviation of the ship HMS (His Majesty's Ship - His Majesty's Ship) has changed to ORP (Okret Rzeczi Pospolitej - Ship of the Commonwealth) "Dragon". The cruiser became part of the Home Fleet, although she was not enrolled in any of the squadrons.
              Soon, "Dragon" was assigned to the 10th cruising squadron of the Home Fleet, which was preparing for an amphibious operation to land allied forces on the coast of Normandy. The ships were to provide fire support for the landing units of the British 3rd Infantry Division. At 04.20 on July 8, 1944, the "Dragon" attacked the German man-controlled torpedo "Neger" ("Neger"). transmitted at 5.01 by a flag signal to the cruiser "Emerald" for transmission to the command ship. Unnoticed, the triumphant Podhast left the battle area. However, on the way to the base, after dawn, his "Neger" was spotted by the British minesweeper "Orestes" and sunk by 20-mm machine gun fire, the wounded driver was captured.
              The crew's struggle for survivability continued for about a day, but it was not possible to save the ship. The semi-submerged cruiser was towed to the shallow, where it was abandoned as an additional element of the artificial jetty of port No. 4 Gooseberry near Arromanches. The cruiser Dragon was excluded from the lists of ships of the Polish Navy on July 9, 1944. It was raised only in the early 1950s, after which it was sold for metal.
              1. SERGE ANT
                SERGE ANT 5 September 2021 11: 07
                +5
                To compensate for this loss, a similar cruiser "Conrad" (formerly HMS "Danae") was transferred to Poland.

                However, the ship managed to fight for only 20 days. Due to heavy wear of mechanisms 12.2 - 29.5.1945 the cruiser was again under repair. After the surrender of Germany, the ship arrived in Wilhelmshaven, then made 8 voyages to the shores of Scandinavia, transporting repatriates. From the beginning of 1946, Conrad was in Rozait along with the Polish destroyers Blyskawica, Garland and Piorun. In February, the sailors of these ships took part in the maneuvers of the Home Fleet. On March 8, 1946, Polish ships were withdrawn from the Metropolitan Fleet; they were now subordinate to the naval command of the naval base at Rozait, forming Group North. On April 15, in agreement with the British Admiralty, they made a cruise from Rosyth to Plymouth to meet with the crews of the southern group of Polish ships based there. In early August, the cruiser "Conrad" was ready for transfer to the Royal Navy, and part of the crew was transferred to Hellensborough in Scotland.
              2. hohol95
                hohol95 5 September 2021 19: 57
                +1
                And where did they get so many sailors from?
                Polish origin ...
                It is not clear who remained in Poland itself.
          2. hohol95
            hohol95 5 September 2021 19: 51
            +1
            Under the "wing" of the Grand Fleet, the lords showed themselves well.
            But without this "wing" - they just scattered in different directions, like the lads of Pan Ataman Gritian Tavrichesky.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 5 September 2021 21: 16
              +2
              And what could they do alone, only die heroically or be interned in a neutral country. What actually happened to some of the ships.
              1. hohol95
                hohol95 5 September 2021 21: 38
                +2
                Just for what it was before the war to tear the vests and show arrogance ...
                And the monitors and armored boats of the Pinsk flotilla also served the Soviet sailors. The Poles simply drowned them and blew up only one monitor out of 6!
                The last armored boats were lost in the defense of Kiev.
                During the liberation of Kiev in the winter of 1943-1944, 3 "Polish" armored boats were found. Renovated. Two of them fought to win. BK-36, BK-37 reached the Hohenzoller Canal in Germany!
      2. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 5 September 2021 11: 04
        -1
        I saw a photo where the Germans "rolled" on a tracked artillery tractor based on the Vickers 6t. But I don't know - tested or used ...
        A! Like "Renault ft17" adapted for armored trains! Well, they put them on the railway platform.
        1. Ashes of Claes
          Ashes of Claes 5 September 2021 14: 48
          +3
          Quote: Leader of the Redskins
          A! Like "Renault ft17" adapted for armored trains! Well, they put them on the railway platform.

          So this is an innovation of the Soviet-Polish war of 1920 more)
          By the way, about FT-17 - in 2012, the Afghan government transferred FT-17 to the Poles, which. it was allegedly hit by the Red Army in the 1920s, and in the 30s came to Afghanistan during the Afghan campaign of the spacecraft. Here's a story)
          1. The leader of the Redskins
            The leader of the Redskins 5 September 2021 14: 51
            0
            I'm not talking about who was the first to use tanks on platforms, but how the Nazis used captured Polish equipment I wrote.
            1. Ashes of Claes
              Ashes of Claes 5 September 2021 15: 41
              +4
              Quote: Leader of the Redskins
              I saw a photo where the Germans "rolled" on a tracked artillery tractor based on the Vickers 6t. But I don't know - tested or used ...


              Do you mean the С7Р tractor? The Germans quite used them for their intended purpose. Ours even got 3 of them.

        2. hohol95
          hohol95 5 September 2021 19: 53
          +1
          Those are Polish tractors made on the base of 7TP - S7R tanks!
          1. Ashes of Claes
            Ashes of Claes 5 September 2021 20: 47
            +1
            Quote: hohol95
            Those are Polish tractors made on the base of 7TP - S7R tanks!

            And 7TP, sorry, isn't this a six-ton ​​vickers?
            1. hohol95
              hohol95 5 September 2021 21: 23
              +2
              And the T-26 is 100% "Vickers six-ton"?
              The 7TP (descendant) was better armed and the engine was 110 hp diesel. with.
              And the Czechoslovak Lt.vz 35 is similar to the "six-ton" or T-26, and the Italian M11 / 39?
              He "did not look" to the British himself, but the "six-ton" vehicle itself (there were no other vehicles for export) and the concept of a light infantry escort tank approached other countries.
              Even the Americans copied its chassis, but the tank itself did not work!
              1. Ashes of Claes
                Ashes of Claes 5 September 2021 22: 34
                +1
                Quote: hohol95
                And the T-26 is 100% "Vickers six-ton"?
                7TR (descendant) was better armed

                do not be tedious - on the way it is one and the same machine. It was about a tractor, what does the armament have to do with it?
                1. hohol95
                  hohol95 5 September 2021 22: 43
                  +1
                  The British did not have tractors on such a chassis at all.
                  1. Ashes of Claes
                    Ashes of Claes 6 September 2021 08: 15
                    +1
                    Quote: hohol95
                    The British did not have tractors on such a chassis at all.

                    Yes? How, however, categorically, colleague) About "dragons medium mk4" on the basis of a 6-tonnage have not heard? It was developed by Vickers in 1934. And he served quite well in the BEC during the French campaign. Moreover, China and India bought a couple of dozen of these tractors each.


                    1. hohol95
                      hohol95 6 September 2021 08: 58
                      0
                      Possible.
                      I'll take a look. I will read it.
                      A total of 53 "Dragons" of which 12 were British, 18 Indian, and the rest Chinese.
                      The new engine, a serious re-arrangement of the entire machine and the tractor is ready! In the USSR, there were clearly no engines and Soviet tractors were inferior to both British and Polish ones (150 units)
                      Only MK E himself did not impress the British military at all. This is understandable. Engine problems. Problems with observation from the tank. It was also lucky that he had no export competitors.
                      So they bought them while trying to improve the above problems.
                      And the British themselves tried to insert a new motor, but received only a new body with the old engine. The Belgians did not want to sit in the fighting and engine compartments at the same time.
                    2. Ashes of Claes
                      Ashes of Claes 6 September 2021 09: 44
                      +1
                      Quote: hohol95
                      The new engine, a serious re-arrangement of the entire machine and the tractor is ready!

                      To "and the tractor is ready!" from the tank initially just stupidly removed the tower with the box, put the armored shields and seats - that's all. This can be seen from the hump of the engine compartment in the early version with the Dorman engine.
                    3. hohol95
                      hohol95 6 September 2021 10: 36
                      0
                      You're wrong.
                      Even the tank didn't take off with the Dorman.
                      The tractors were equipped with a 90-horsepower engine from AEC. And the hull is clearly not from the parent tank !!!
                      Your last photo shows it perfectly !!!
                    4. Ashes of Claes
                      Ashes of Claes 6 September 2021 11: 45
                      0
                      Quote: hohol95
                      You're wrong.
                      Even the tank didn't take off with the Dorman.

                      but what's the difference - took off, did not take off. I wrote that initially the "tractor is ready" was by elementary dismantling of the turret platform and turrets, and not as a result of some "serious rearrangements". Here is a tank and a tractor at its base.

                    5. hohol95
                      hohol95 6 September 2021 11: 57
                      0
                      This is the initial version of the tractor.
                      A prototype for running in the structure.
                      A completely different tractor was delivered to France by BEF.
                    6. Ashes of Claes
                      Ashes of Claes 6 September 2021 12: 10
                      0
                      Of course.
                      That is, the question "the British did not build tractors based on Vickers 6t" is closed?
                    7. hohol95
                      hohol95 6 September 2021 12: 26
                      0
                      They were building. But with a well-redesigned hull design and a new engine. From the "six-ton" there is only chassis "
                    8. Ashes of Claes
                      Ashes of Claes 6 September 2021 12: 32
                      0
                      Quote: hohol95
                      From the "six-ton" there is only chassis "

                      yes there, damn it, everything from the Mk E except for the tank functionality.
                    9. hohol95
                      hohol95 6 September 2021 12: 49
                      0
                      On the tractors that were serially produced from the MK.E, there was only a suspension.
                      For comparison, look at the tractors made by the Germans based on the Czech 35 (t).
                      Only the turret was removed from the tank and a beam with a towing hook was attached. And that's all.
  • stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 5 September 2021 23: 02
    +2
    Quote: hohol95
    And the T-26 is 100% "Vickers six-ton"?
    The 7TR (descendant) was better armed and the engine was 110 hp diesel. with

    How was the Pole better than the T-26 with a 45mm cannon?
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 6 September 2021 05: 04
      +1
      Engine and observation devices.
      As for - better armed - a comparison with the "six-ton"!
      1. Ashes of Claes
        Ashes of Claes 6 September 2021 10: 27
        0
        Quote: hohol95
        As for - better armed - a comparison with the "six-ton"!

        Well? Why is 37mm Bofors better than 47mm Vickers?
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 6 September 2021 10: 56
          +1
          Higher armor penetration. They wrote about problems with the quality of Polish AP shells, but the British took only 500mm of enemy armor from 25 m.
          "Bofors" according to Finnish data (Swedish shells) at an angle of 60 ° pierced 37mm from 500m.
          Although at the beginning of the war, the armor penetration of both guns was enough.
      2. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 6 September 2021 10: 39
        +1
        Quote: hohol95
        Engine and observation devices.
        About - better armed - comparison with "six-ton"

        Quote: Ashes of Klaas
        How can you even compare an uncontested car with a miserable one and a half hundred copies with a tank that has been plowed in several wars ???

        Like a gritsa "Truth is in the middle." laughing
        The T-26 was a typical infantry escort tank. A sort of analogue of the Pz-II. And in a two-turret version with machine guns - an analogue of the Pz-I.
        As for the observation devices and the engine, we have examples when 500-horsepower engines with good observation devices did not save either the tank or the crew from a sad fate, despite the anti-shell armor with a thickness of 45 to 120 mm.
        Moreover, LT vz. 38, aka Pz. Kpfw. 38 (t), even outwardly resembled the T-26. But it was successfully used as part of the panzerwaffen tank divisions.
        The origins of the negative attitude towards the T-26 lie in the massive losses of the tank in the first months of the Great Patriotic War. Which is not surprising. Luftwaffe bombers, according to the Germans, were "flying PTO" in countering lightly armored vehicles. But why there is lightly armored ... Indicative is the case with the 1st GvTK on July 14, 1943, when the "pieces" comrades stopped the corps while trying to enter it into a breakthrough in the Oryol direction ...
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 6 September 2021 11: 13
          0
          The T-26 was a relative of the Lt vz-35 (Pz.35 (t)). 6th Panzer Division. Only this division fought at 35 (t).
          The T-26 was unlucky with the engine. There was nothing to replace him with. And the mass of the tank grew and grew. The chassis was already at the limit of "its strength". Cars have become more susceptible to chassis breakdowns and engine failures.
        2. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker 6 September 2021 11: 48
          +1
          Quote: hohol95
          The T-26 was a relative of the Lt vz-35 (Pz.35 (t)). 6th Panzer Division. Only this division fought 35 (t)

          I will not argue - which of us is smarter. laughing
          Quote: hohol95
          The T-26 was unlucky with the engine. There was nothing to replace him with. And the mass of the tank grew and grew. The chassis was already at the limit of "its strength". Cars have become more susceptible to chassis breakdowns and engine failures

          The possibilities of factories producing both tanks and spare parts for them were not unlimited. In 1940, with the transition to the production of new equipment, the supply of spare parts to the old ones stopped. By June 1941, at least 20% of the T-26s available in the western districts were immobilized due to the lack of spare parts for the chassis and engines. The situation with spare tracks was especially critical. On long marches as part of the MK in the summer of 41, not only T-26s, but also other types of tanks were thrown on the roads, both due to breakdowns and the crew's lack of ability to make repairs, including the lack of spare parts.
          Those few T-26s that remained in units in the sedentary sectors of the front took part in the battles. This is on the sector of the Karelian Front in 1944, and in August 45 in the Far East.
          The problem of inconsistency between the reliability of the chassis and engine-transmission group with the weight of the tank had a particularly critical impact on the fate of the KV-1 from its modifications (I don’t even stutter about the KV-2), which did not prevent him from fighting until the 43rd, when it became clear that even in the KV-1S version, it turned into a suitcase without a handle - it was considered heavy in weight, and medium in armament. And all because both the chassis and the engine group were designed for a tank weighing 40 tons, and at the output they received almost 50.
          And it’s quite a textbook story in this perspective with the “feline” Pantsewaffen family. This is where the scope for criticism of the initially laid miscalculation of the chassis, which cannot withstand marches due to the excessive mass of the tank, is open to criticism.
        3. hohol95
          hohol95 6 September 2021 12: 20
          +1
          Lack of spare parts, fuel and lubricants is a scourge not only for tank forces. And perhaps all mechanized, tank and aviation units of the Red Army.
          And about 35 (t) or 38 (t) there can be no dispute. Initially similar machines, but the second had more "protor" for modernization and was made to replace the first!
          At the same time, it was a "rework" of the tank that was in service - Lt vz. 34.
          And of course, a more advanced design due to the export versions of the machine.
          And 35s were supplied only to Romanians. The Afghans did not wait for their tanks - they went to the Bulgarians.
        4. Ashes of Claes
          Ashes of Claes 6 September 2021 13: 00
          +1
          Quote: stalkerwalker
          Quote: hohol95
          The T-26 was a relative of the Lt vz-35 (Pz.35 (t)). 6th Panzer Division. Only this division fought 35 (t)

          I will not argue - which of us is smarter.

          Yes, there are all seven spans - tea, with a search line on "you" laughing Can I be smart too? The 35th LTshki in Poland fought as part of the 1st Light Division. Important information, right? laughing
        5. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker 6 September 2021 13: 13
          0
          Quote: Ashes of Klaas
          Can I be smart too?

          Everything is possible here ... wassat
          The main thing is not to get personal ...
          hi
      3. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 6 September 2021 13: 38
        +1
        Quote: stalkerwalker
        The problem of inconsistency between the reliability of the chassis and engine-transmission group with the weight of the tank had a particularly critical impact on the fate of the KV-1 from its modifications (I don’t even stutter about the KV-2), which did not prevent him from fighting until the 43rd, when it became clear that even in the KV-1S version, it turned into a suitcase without a handle - it was considered heavy in weight, and medium in armament.

        The KV had a slightly different problem - it had a discrepancy between the mass of the tank and the calculated loads on the suspension and chassis was laid down initially, even in the drawings and prototypes. On this tank, in general, the design bureau was delayed in full: one drive of a seven-ton tower, taken from a tower with a mass of three tons, which it cost. Moreover, these destructors installed the same drive on the KV-2 - and its tower weighed twelve (!) Tons.

        And the T-26 was initially all right - the two-turret had no problems. The problems arose later, when, after all the upgrades, the mass of the tank exceeded 9 tons.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 6 September 2021 13: 28
    +1
    Quote: stalkerwalker
    Moreover, LT vz. 38, aka Pz. Kpfw. 38 (t), even outwardly resembled the T-26. But it was successfully used as part of the panzerwaffen tank divisions.

    LT vz. 38 is the next generation of LT, "nine tonnes".
    Moreover, its ancestor, LT vz. 35, was considered in the USSR as one of the possible candidates for replacing the T-26, which was considered obsolete in our country already in 1937. More precisely, those who had exhausted their modernization potential - the poor "six-ton" man had already reached 10 tons, the chassis, transmission and engine were at their limit.
  • stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 6 September 2021 15: 06
    +2
    Quote: Alexey RA
    LT vz. 38 is the next generation of LT, "nine tonnes".
    Moreover, its ancestor, LT vz. 35, was considered in the USSR as one of the possible candidates for replacing the T-26, which was already considered obsolete in our country in 1937.

    I so badly imagine the servo drive of the LT vz. 35 transmission made by our factories, remembering the "plugs" and the efforts of our mechanics when changing gears both on the T-34 and on the KV. The culture of production, as well as the precision of machining of parts, were, until recently, an Achilles' heel in all areas. And on the ground, there were amateurs to simplify and reduce the cost of production in the form of those same destructors. In other words, we were not threatened by the presence on our tanks of transmissions of the type that were even on the "troikas" of the early production series, allowing the tank to accelerate to speeds exceeding the maximum speed of the BT.
  • hohol95
    hohol95 7 September 2021 13: 04
    0
    And there were a lot of those "triplets" that the Soviet BTs were overtaking?
    For a long time, Herr Kniepkamp "played at motorway" tanks. Played, but the "troikas" did not want to become normal tanks ...
    "Troika" was able to "finish" to a working condition only in Model E. And it was by no means a "racing" tank.
  • stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 7 September 2021 13: 14
    0
    Quote: hohol95
    And there were a lot of those "triplets" that the Soviet BTs were overtaking?

    It can be compared by the number left on the battlefields in the summer of 41.
    Quote: hohol95
    The three "were able to" finish "to a working condition only in the model E. And it was by no means a" racing "tank

    It's not about speed races, but about the absence of a technological park and qualified specialists, both for metal-working machines and for assembling the motor-transmission group.
    As a result - the appearance in the KV crew of the exotic position of "junior driver-mechanic", and thousands of abandoned tanks due to the failure of the main and / or side clutches.
  • hohol95
    hohol95 7 September 2021 13: 56
    0
    Germans 2 years "sawed with a file three" until they received model E !!!!
    And then they changed the gearbox, strengthened the chassis.
    Soviet designers and production workers did not have 2 years to develop the KV-1 and T-34 designs.
    I would like to, but ...
    The KV-1 was quickly tested in winter conditions and put into production. And in the summer it turned out that the cars overheat and require regular replacement of filters clogged with dust, which was not there in winter.
    So it is with the T-34. They wrote a "papyrus" of comments, but put them on the conveyor belt.
  • stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 7 September 2021 14: 28
    +1
    Quote: hohol95
    Germans 2 years "sawed with a file three" until they received model E !!!!
    And then they changed the gearbox, strengthened the chassis.
    Soviet designers and production workers did not have 2 years to develop the KV-1 and T-34 designs

    The time factor always plays a negative role, as in the above examples.
    The design flaws of both the KV and the T-34 were known after the first months of their operation in the troops: these are problems with overheating of the B-2 at the KV (in the winter of 39-40, this was not yet obvious), and the location (and the number of - in) viewing devices, and, perhaps most importantly, problems with the transimmission - the onboard and main clutches were on fire. And if the tightness of the fighting compartment of the T-34 can still be somehow understood, then the absence of a rotating polic in the KV is puzzling - the T-28 already had one.
    There is no need to return to the planned system of ordering and releasing a strictly unrealizable number of new types of tanks ordered by the industry. This has already been discussed. And returning to the question "Who and how long did it take to bring the tanks to mind?" triples and Prague with Skodas, which were not considered rivals by both the KV-1 and the T-34.
    The main thing is that the opportunity was missed to work out both the assembly technology and the possibility of modernization in the future, when the factories left for evacuation and produced tanks that surpassed any Wehrmacht tank in their performance characteristics, but in fact were a harsh semi-finished product that had to be brought on the spot by tank crews and PARMs.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 7 September 2021 16: 04
    +1
    Quote: hohol95
    Soviet designers and production workers did not have 2 years to develop the KV-1 and T-34 designs.

    The developers of the KV had a year and a half from the moment of the military tests of the tank. Nothing was done.
    Soviet designers and production workers did not have desires for the development of the KV-1 and T-34 designs. In June 1941, LKZ produced KV with the same shortcomings as at the beginning of 1940 - even the Mehlis commission did not correct the situation. KhPZ fed the GABTU with breakfasts, promising to correct the shortcomings with the 500th, 1000th, etc. machines, now and then shifting the timing to the right.
    The factories and design bureaus simply scored serial tanks on the UKN completely and completely, throwing all their strength into the development of new tanks, in which they planned to take into account all the comments of the army. But the stone flower did not come out.
    Quote: hohol95
    The KV-1 was quickly tested in winter conditions and put into production. And in the summer it turned out that the cars overheat and require regular replacement of filters clogged with dust, which was not there in winter.

    It was discovered in June 1940, a year before the war. The "measures" taken by the LKZ can only be called mocking - the instruction included a provision on cleaning the air filter every one and a half hours of marching along a dirt road, a second filter was added to the spare parts. That is, not only was the maximum real speed of the KV in the summer time limited to 20 km / h (the cooling system boiled higher), but also the column of the tank battalion had to stop every hour and a half to replace the filters. Or wait in the area of ​​concentration for the approach of stragglers on the KV march.
    But that's okay - it was only in the summer that it could be discovered. But to put on a seven-ton tower an obviously insufficiently powerful drive from a three-ton T-28 tower and hope for its normal operation - how is it?
    The plant does not carry out the required radical measures to eliminate defects, but rather easily feasible half-measures, or does nothing at all. For example, instead of intensive work on improving the nodes in the gearbox (it has weak gears, some bearings are unreliable, the pump does not work well), the plant improved the heat treatment of several gears. The test results showed the absurdity of this event. Even during the defense of the project, as well as in the list of design changes from February 4, the question was raised about the need for a lock in the gearbox, but the plant did not want to do anything until two gearboxes crashed. Until now, the issue with the facilitation of gear shifting is also incomplete.
    The same checklist indicated that the engine air filter did not have sufficient dust absorption capacity. Instead of urgent alteration of it, the plant has held out on this issue to this day. And now it has been solved by adding a second filter of the same type to each car as a spare one.
    Due to the insufficient efficiency of the cooling system (oil and water), the motor operates in an increased thermal mode, as a result of which the required power cannot be removed from it. Until now, the plant has not done anything on this issue, while due to the last two defects, 8 motors have been disabled.
    The turret ring is weak, the undercarriage of the vehicle is weak, the ammunition rack is flawed, the turret rotation mechanism is flawed. All these are big serious questions on which the plant has not done anything significant over the past year. A year ago, the plant produced the first car (September 1, 1939), after the end of the Finnish events, the plant produced the fourth car.

    Today the 39th car is being assembled. It would seem that 35 units (not counting 4 front-line vehicles) are quite enough to modify the vehicle and improve its quality. And in essence, the difference in quality between the first and last machines lies in various small adjustments, in the coordination of drawings and in the refinement of the production technology.
    © military engineer of the 3rd rank Kalivoda, August 12, 1940
  • stalkerwalker
    stalkerwalker 7 September 2021 16: 26
    0
    Quote: Alexey RA
    The developers of the KV had a year and a half from the moment of the military tests of the tank. Nothing has been done

    In light of the then problems with the production of technologically sophisticated 76-mm armor-piercing shells of the type known as "hell. No. 2-03545 ", the production plan of which was constantly shifting to the right, and was fulfilled by only 18% by the summer of 41, we can only wonder how, with such a mess prevailing at the head enterprises of the military-industrial complex, they still set up production. True, much later, and with great losses ...
  • hohol95
    hohol95 7 September 2021 17: 13
    0
    And how many T-54s have already been "finished" by our designers? Especially after the "plaintive kicks" from the army ...
    We can sin and translate arrows for a very long time.
    Only nothing will be corrected.
    The T-26 was not bought out of "great love" for British tank builders. Just after the MC-1, they could not create anything intelligible to replace it. Neither the T-12/24, nor other designs wanted to work normally.
    It's just that the modernization of a tank already standing on the stream looks "less significant" than the creation of a "no analogue in the world"!
    And you can get a decent prize ...
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 7 September 2021 15: 43
    0
    Quote: hohol95
    And there were a lot of those "triplets" that the Soviet BTs were overtaking?

    In fairness, on the march, BT was overtaken by almost everyone. Because of the curves of the checkpoint and the traditional quality of the 30s, the average technical speed of the BT was the lowest of all Soviet LT and even ST.
  • Ashes of Claes
    Ashes of Claes 6 September 2021 15: 36
    +1
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Moreover, its ancestor, LT vz. 35, was considered in the USSR as one of the possible candidates to replace the T-26.

    The funny thing is that the British were the first to become interested in LT-35s. And not just, but with the prospect of a licensed release.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 6 September 2021 16: 39
    +1
    Quote: Ashes of Klaas
    The funny thing is that the British were the first to become interested in LT-35s. And not just, but with the prospect of a licensed release.

    Hmmm ... the homeland of tanks in 20 years wants to buy a license for a tank from a shard of Austria-Hungary. All polymers fell ... smile

    Although, maybe it was a chance for the Island Empire to get normal tanks. And not to design and build 12-ton machine-gun monsters, 30-ton machine-gun self-propelled guns and its longest TOG II. smile
  • hohol95
    hohol95 7 September 2021 13: 07
    0
    The British loved everything riveted ...
    So they wanted 200 riveted tanks. 100 from Czechoslovakia and 100 wanted to rivet themselves.
    Couldn't come to an agreement ...
  • hohol95
    hohol95 7 September 2021 12: 59
    0
    It is doubtful that the USSR wanted to re-engage in the production of a tank assembled with rivets and bolts.
    They wanted to test the chassis and produce it right at home. But not the whole tank.
    The chassis was reproduced, tested and decided that it was time to switch to a torsion bar suspension.
  • Ashes of Claes
    Ashes of Claes 6 September 2021 07: 48
    +1
    Quote: stalkerwalker
    How was the Pole better than the T-26 with a 45mm cannon?

    yes nothing. How can you even compare an uncontested car with a miserable one and a half hundred copies with a tank that has been plowed in several wars ???
  • Old electrician
    Old electrician 5 September 2021 06: 47
    +12
    To give Poland the status of a victim of the Second World War, literally all history textbooks contain an outright forgery. Officially, the pretext for the outbreak of World War II is called the allegedly put forward by Hitler to Poland to transfer Danzig and the lands of the "Polish corridor" to him, in order to deprive her of access to the sea. In reality, Hitler did not demand Polish lands, he just asked Poland for permission to organize an extraterritorial highway and railway, which Hitler, moreover, undertook to build with German funds. The crux of the matter is that on about 50 km of the section between Pomerania and East Prussia, transit German goods passed through Polish customs control twice and, accordingly, were twice subject to customs duties. Therefore, the word "extraterritorial" here only has the meaning to abolish the double duty for transit traffic.
    Until 1939, according to the Versailles Treaty, Danzig was a free city, of course, Hitler could not demand it from Poland. However, according to the same Treaty of Versailles, Poland received the right to organize the Danzig customs service. All Hitler wanted was just to replace Polish customs officers with Danzig ones. In exchange, Hitler offered Poland the mutual recognition of borders. It is difficult to call these demands ultimatum. The modern EU can do without customs duties, and the replacement of border guards did not even bring moral damage to Poland. On the other hand, mutual recognition of borders could give it guarantees of peaceful coexistence. However, even before that, the Poles wanted to cut off part of the territory of Germany in their favor. With the help of England and France, they generally took a bite at the bit, so the inviolability of borders in 1939 no longer interested them.
    The pre-war goal of England and France was to incite Germany against the USSR. In order for Hitler to get access to the Soviet border, they decided to surrender Poland to him. For this it was necessary to play off Poland and Germany. Therefore, in order to aggravate German-Polish relations, England, in violation of the Treaty of Versailles, promised Danzig to both of them!
    On April 6, 1939, Beck and Chamberlain signed an Anglo-Polish mutual assistance treaty. At the same time, Chamberlain hinted at the possibility of Poland's capture of the free city of Danzig, which did not belong to it. To receive this prize, Poland needed "only" to defeat Germany in a small victorious war. Like the capture of the Cieszyn region by Poland during the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia.
    The provocative essence of the Anglo-Polish Treaty of Mutual Assistance of April 6, 1939 is that it was a direct violation of the German-Polish Declaration of Friendship and Non-Aggression of 1934. Those. in April 1939, Hitler was confronted with the fact that an Anglo-French-Polish alliance was concluded against him. In turn, Poland took this treaty as a carte blanche for the war with Germany and from April 6, 1939, began openly hostile provocations against Germany, extremely heating up the international situation.
    Although the Germans in pre-war Poland had a hard time before, but after April 6, 1939, the persecution of the Germans took completely wild forms, German pogroms began, in which, according to the most conservative estimates, up to 20 thousand Volksdeutsche were killed. It should be noted that the pogroms in Poland on a national basis were the most popular and most successful national sport. For example, I do not sympathize with German fascism, but the Germans had every reason to ruthlessly take revenge on the Poles.
    On March 21, 1939, Germany presented an ultimatum to the Polish government demanding an end to the German pogroms. The answer of the Poles was very "diplomatic" - and you would not have walked through the forest. At that time, Hitler did not even have headquarters plans for the war with Poland.
    On March 30, 1939, England gives Poland a security guarantee, and then concludes a defense agreement with her.
    April 13, 1939 France gives Poland a security guarantee similar to the British one. Subsequently, these guarantees resulted in the "Strange War" when Germany was bombed with leaflets.
    At the beginning of April 1939, the plan of Poland's offensive against Germany, stolen by the Polish General Staff, lay on Hitler's desk. After that Hitler was forced to start developing a strategic plan of military action against Poland - the "Weiss" plan.
    April 28, 1939. Germany denounces the 1934 non-aggression pact with Poland.
    On May 5, 1939, Polish Foreign Minister Józef Beck announced on the radio preparations for a war with Germany. In fact, it was a declaration of war; the whole of Poland listened to it with bated breath. However, unlike the secret supplement to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, the text of this speech by Jozef Beck is not in any open collection of documents. I searched the Internet, but apart from photographs illustrating Beck's speech, I could not find a single quote.
    Our dear allies in World War II wanted to immediately involve the USSR in this conflict. However, on 23.08.1939/31.08.1939/XNUMX the USSR avoided the blow by signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. On the same day, Poland, not knowing the plans of the West, began a hidden mobilization. This was not included in the plans of the Allies because Hitler had to reach the borders of the USSR with minimal losses. Therefore, under pressure from the governments of England and France, hidden mobilization in Poland was canceled, creating chaos on the roads and collection points. After that, the general mobilization in Poland was announced only on XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX, when the train had already sailed away.
    At the time, the declaration of mobilization and the declaration of war were synonymous. Hitler was literally twisted his arms so that he attacked Poland. The mobilization of the Wehrmacht began on 26.08.1939/1/XNUMX and was completed by September XNUMX.
    What happened next, everyone knows.
    1. mmaxx
      mmaxx 5 September 2021 07: 31
      +11
      Also add why it was Gitier who asked for these roads. It's just that the Polish "dobrobats" and activists staged robberies and beatings of people on trains with Germans, "arrests", after which people simply disappeared. Democrats, what to take from them.
      They have made every sacrifice a victim of the war.
    2. Kisa
      Kisa 5 September 2021 07: 38
      +5
      Quote: Old electrician
      What happened next, everyone knows.

      I am reading now ... and I am reading in English too ... we are here about the Mongol Tatars of the Rurekovichi some kind of history we are writing events a thousand years ago ... and here the event is 80 years old and such diverse readings ... in Russian they write that the USSR is in 41m entered the second century and in English they write that the USSR belonged in the 2m to a number of countries - shape-shifters like Italy Bulgaria ... who started the war on the side of the Axis and ended against Germany ... this pact of Mr. Germans. the Balts have made an offer to optimize the border from which they do not refuse ... should all this be attributed to propaganda ???
    3. Avior
      Avior 5 September 2021 10: 56
      +1
      ... In order to give Poland the status of a victim of the Second World War, literally all history textbooks contain an outright forgery.

      The fact that Poland is a victim of the war is not decided by the authors of textbooks.
      Poland's status as a victim of the war is enshrined in the main official results of the Second World War in Europe - in the Potsdam Agreements - the official final decisions of the Potsdam Conference -1945.
      They secured Poland's right to receive reparations.
      Therefore, to argue the opposite is revisionism and an attempt to cancel and revise the official results of the Second World War.
      Bad idea: ((((
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 5 September 2021 11: 34
        +4
        Now everything is going to revise the results of WW2. The Helsinki agreements have been de facto denounced. There is still a little left. Recognize the USSR as an aggressor and level the fascist regime with the Soviet one, as anti-popular, aggressive, etc.
        Fix it all by law and go ahead!
        Bad idea, but quite real.
        1. Avior
          Avior 5 September 2021 14: 27
          +5
          The official results of the Second World War were very honorable and beneficial for the USSR.
          It is all the more strange to seek a revision of the results of the Second World War, not only at the private, but also practically at the state level, out of a momentary desire to somehow make an attempt to hurt the Poles - what I see now.
          1. ee2100
            ee2100 5 September 2021 17: 20
            +3
            Revision of WW2 results is beneficial only to Germany. This was said back in the early 90s by a German political scientist. And while everything goes according to the scenario he voiced
            1. Avior
              Avior 5 September 2021 17: 26
              +1
              It makes it all the more strange to see those wishing to revise in Russia
              1. ee2100
                ee2100 5 September 2021 19: 16
                +1
                There are most likely no such in Russia
                1. Avior
                  Avior 5 September 2021 19: 37
                  -1
                  I often see such people interested in VO.
      2. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 5 September 2021 14: 29
        -4
        Quote: Avior
        The fact that Poland is a victim of the war is not decided by the authors of textbooks.
        Poland's status as a victim of the war is enshrined in the main official results of the Second World War in Europe - in the Potsdam Agreements - the official final decisions of the Potsdam Conference -1945.
        They secured Poland's right to receive reparations.
        Therefore, to argue the opposite is revisionism and an attempt to cancel and revise the official results of the Second World War.
        Bad idea: ((((

        Excuse me, why are you not indignant with your authorities, which have been trying for 30 years to reconsider the results of Potsdam and Nuremberg and make the USSR guilty of unleashing WWII? Over there, your Zelensky has already sniffed so much that he has already begun to say that Germany and Ukraine were victims of the USSR in WWII. Or is it different, you need to understand?
      3. Ashes of Claes
        Ashes of Claes 5 September 2021 19: 57
        +3
        Quote: Avior
        The fact that Poland is a victim of the war is not decided by the authors of textbooks.

        Well said. You know, I get the impression that the majority imagine history (I'm talking about the latest) as a two-dimensional matrix, not trying to look beyond the horizon of imposed interpretations. It is sad. There is a feeling that I am reading excerpts from manuals. It's a paradox - now there is such an information array for personal analysis, comparisons and conclusions, a mass of documents, a field for impartial assessments - and you ... how so?
    4. Ashes of Claes
      Ashes of Claes 5 September 2021 16: 41
      +4
      Quote: Old electrician
      On May 5, 1939, Polish Foreign Minister Jozef Beck announced on the radio preparations for a war with Germany. It was essentially a declaration of war

      Stop lying! On May 5, Beck made his famous speech in the Diet. In principle, there could not have been any announcements on the radio of Germany's war.
      Quote: Old electrician
      However, unlike the secret supplement to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, the text of this speech by Jozef Beck is not in any open collection of documents. I searched the Internet, but apart from photographs illustrating Beck's speech, I could not find a single quote.

      Seriously?
      Shitty fumbled, dear.
      Here is the full text of Y. Beck's speech in the Diet on 05.05.1939/XNUMX/XNUMX.
      https://polishfreedom.pl/en/document/przemowienie-ministra-spraw-zagranicznych-rp-jozefa-becka-w-sejmie
    5. The comment was deleted.
  • andrewkor
    andrewkor 5 September 2021 07: 07
    -1
    The hyena of Europe (without quotes) is not a pity! Unlike the IVS, which donated West Prussia.
    1. Ashes of Claes
      Ashes of Claes 5 September 2021 19: 40
      +1
      Quote: andrewkor
      Unlike the IVS, which donated West Prussia.

      not only her. Stalin moved this country from east to west like a closet. The price of this movement of furniture, however, is enormous.
      1. Avior
        Avior 5 September 2021 21: 16
        0
        Actually, Churchill moved it.
        The story of three Churchill matches, with which he defined the new borders of Poland during a conference in Tehran in 1943.
        He put one on the proposed border in the east, the second measured the distance to the old border and moved the western border by the same distance.
        Stalin just wanted to move Poland's eastern border.
        1. Ashes of Claes
          Ashes of Claes 5 September 2021 22: 24
          0
          Quote: Avior
          Actually, Churchill moved it.
          The story of three Churchill matches, with which he defined the new borders of Poland during a conference in Tehran in 1943.

          I also like this textbook story with matches, but, by and large, Churchill in this episode was something of a sign language interpreter. Well, let's put it this way - Churchill and Stalin moved Poland westward.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 5 September 2021 07: 12
    -1
    In planning, the Poles made a number of mistakes, which include:

    1. An even distribution of troops along the border.

    2. Delay with latent mobilization.

    3. Underestimation of the effectiveness of interaction between aviation and Wehrmacht tanks.

    4. Reassessment of the qualities of their troops.


    this is 1939

    But the same can be attributed to 1941, as if there were no lessons of 1939 and 1940 ...
    1. bk0010
      bk0010 5 September 2021 10: 20
      -1
      Quote: Olgovich
      1. An even distribution of troops along the border.
      This was not the case, there were many troops in the south (they were preparing to repel the attack of England and France).
      Quote: Olgovich
      2. Delay with latent mobilization.
      The number of the Red Army On February 21, 1939 - 1 910 477 people, On June 22, 1941 - 5 080 977 people.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 5 September 2021 10: 44
        0
        Quote: bk0010
        This was not the case, there were many troops in the south (they were preparing to repel the attack of England and France).

        which france is in 1941? lol
        Quote: bk0010
        On 22 June 1941 years - 5 080 977 people.

        Germany - over 7 million troops
        1. bk0010
          bk0010 5 September 2021 12: 55
          -1
          Quote: Olgovich
          what is France in 1941?
          In 1939, England and France were going to attack the USSR, the beginning - the bombing of the Baku oil fields. The USSR knew about this and transferred troops to the south. The fall of France prevented an attack on the USSR, but a large group of troops remained in the south.
          Quote: Olgovich
          Germany - over 7 million troops
          By 1942 there would be parity. We managed to recruit 5 million, but not to prepare.
          1. Ashes of Claes
            Ashes of Claes 5 September 2021 18: 09
            0
            Quote: bk0010
            In 1939, England and France were going to attack the USSR, the beginning - the bombing of the Baku oil fields.

            By the way, the minister of foreign affairs of the Polish government in exile August Zaleski offered his services (more precisely, the services of pilots) to the British in February 1940.
          2. Olgovich
            Olgovich 7 September 2021 10: 43
            -2
            Quote: bk0010
            In 1939, England and France were going to attack the USSR, the beginning - the bombing of the Baku oil fields.

            The USSR was warned about the inadmissibility of supplying the Nazis with oil and oil products
            Quote: bk0010
            but a large grouping of troops remained in the south.

            normal
            Quote: bk0010
            1942 would be parity. We managed to recruit 5 million, but not to prepare.

            Ahhh, there was not enough time: Germany (without an army, navy, aviations, tanks, with sanctions and bans) since 1935, but the USSR has not, of course
            1. bk0010
              bk0010 7 September 2021 20: 39
              -1
              Quote: Olgovich
              The USSR was warned about the inadmissibility of supplying the Nazis with oil and oil products
              By whom and when?
              Quote: Olgovich
              Ahhh, there was not enough time: Germany (without an army, navy, aviations, tanks, with sanctions and bans) since 1935, but the USSR has not, of course
              As a result of the activities of the crushers, the USSR also did not have aviation, tanks, etc. And the sanctions were much more serious than those of Germany. Plus, Germany had a developed science and industry, which in the USSR were destroyed by crystal bakers.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 8 September 2021 09: 35
                -2
                Quote: bk0010
                By whom and when?

                belay lol
                Quote: bk0010
                As a result of the activities of the crushers, the USSR also did not have aviation, tanks, etc. And the sanctions were much more serious than those of Germany. A plus

                lovers of crunching bones of the Korolevs and Rokossovskys did not have a brain, and "the sanctions of the West were performed by IM industrialization in USSR fool lol
                Quote: bk0010
                , Germany had a developed science and industry, which in the USSR were destroyed by the crushers.

                Kostokhrustami science in Russia was almost destroyed by the murder of scientists, hunger, exile and repression.

                Go, even the remnants were enough to develop science in the USSR in the future: let me remind you that there were no scientists among the stupid costokhrustists, these are all Soviet IMPERIAL RUSSIAN scientists
                1. bk0010
                  bk0010 8 September 2021 21: 27
                  -1
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  belay
                  Drain counted
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  the sanctions of the West was the industrialization carried out by IM in the USSR
                  Have you heard about the golden boycott? Find something similar for Germany.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Kostokhrustami science in Russia was almost destroyed by the murder of scientists, hunger, exile and repression.
                  No, it was the crystal bakers who killed the scientists, they caused the famine and the civil war. Lenin simply sent the unwanted on the steamer.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 9 September 2021 08: 21
                    0
                    Quote: bk0010
                    Drain counted

                    Yes, I pressed the toilet button and the dunno flew through the pipes.
                    Quote: bk0010
                    Have you heard about the golden boycott? Find something similar for Germany.

                    you leave this for the pain of the tebilov
                    Quote: bk0010
                    No, it was the crystal bakers who killed the scientists, they caused the famine and the civil war.

                    before the thieves civil was not, though read his burr Karl.

                    your them and fired-read Oldenburg.
                    1. bk0010
                      bk0010 9 September 2021 20: 35
                      0
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Yes, I pressed the toilet button and the dunno flew through the pipes.
                      Self-flushing? You did it cool.
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      you leave this for the pain of the tebilov
                      So I wrote for you
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      before the thieves civil was not, though read his burr Karl.
                      It was, it started in February, but it was not immediately understood.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 10 September 2021 11: 36
                        0
                        Quote: bk0010
                        You did it cool.

                        yes, dunno bk is already at the treatment plant, go.
                        Quote: bk0010
                        So I wrote for you

                        for yourself and similar large silts
                        Quote: bk0010
                        It was, it started in February, but it was not immediately understood.

                        even kartvaya karla did not write this either.
                      2. bk0010
                        bk0010 10 September 2021 20: 42
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Quote: bk0010
                        You did it cool.

                        yes, dunno bk is already at the treatment plant, go.
                        Quote: bk0010
                        So I wrote for you

                        for yourself and similar large silts
                        Quote: bk0010
                        It was, it started in February, but it was not immediately understood.

                        even kartvaya karla did not write this either.
                        Yes, here it is - the muzzle of the crystal baker in all its glory! Reasonable arguments or facts can not lead, only writes nasty things.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 6 September 2021 13: 53
    +1
    Quote: Olgovich
    But the same can be attributed to 1941, as if there were no lessons of 1939 and 1940 ...

    The floor is given to Lieutenant General P.S. Klenov, Chief of Staff of the Baltic Special Military District:
    I recently watched Isserson's book, The New Forms of Struggle. Hasty conclusions are given there, based on the war of the Germans with Poland, that there will not be an initial period of war, that today the war is resolved simply by the invasion of ready forces, as was done by the Germans in Poland, deploying one and a half million people.

    I find this conclusion premature. It can be allowed for a state like Poland, which, being arrogant, lost all vigilance and did not have any intelligence of what was done by the Germans during the period of months of concentration of troops. Each self-respecting state, of course, will try to use this initial period in its own interests in order to find out what the enemy is doing, how he is grouping, what his intentions are, and to prevent him from doing this.
    © On the eve of the war. Materials of the meeting of the senior leadership of the Red Army on December 23-31, 1940

    Six months after this speech, the Germans, having crushed the forces of the PribOVO in a border battle, will actually go through the district - the pace of the offensive will be so high that the command of GA "Sever" will have to temporarily "remove" the infantry from the rations in order to ensure the supply of 4 TGr. However, Klenov will not see this anymore - on July 1, 1941, he will be removed from office, and on July 11, 1941, he will be arrested. On February 13, 1942, he will receive the VMSZ, the sentence will be executed on February 23, 1942.
  • Nikolai Miracles
    Nikolai Miracles 5 September 2021 07: 18
    +2
    Roman Ivanov, thank you very much. The first article, which directly states that the blitzkrieg is based on the catastrophic role of the logistics of the defending side:
    ... this happened over the next two years, over and over again in different countries, until it came up against Moscow and Stalingrad
  • Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya 5 September 2021 08: 06
    -2
    The Poles naively hoped for England and France, believed that after the start of the war with Germany, they would strike Germany from the west within three days, and therefore believed that they had to hold out for only three days, and then the Germans would have no time for Poland, all their they would send forces to the Western Front, plus they also hoped that the British fleet would arrange a blockade of Germany in the North and Baltic Seas. But the British and French openly threw the Poles, the Allied forces did not make any serious attempt to attack and did not even cross the German border, and until May 10, 1940, the Anglo-French troops sat in their trenches and played cards and football. Therefore, I am sure that if Russia now seizes the Baltic states, then no one will die for the spratniks, I do not understand at all why Russia has tolerated the assaults of the Baltic mongrels for 30 years? It was high time to seize them, otherwise we are spending money on the construction of new ports in the Leningrad Region, although there are ready-made ports in the Baltic States, which are also ice-free. The situation with Crimea would repeat itself, Britain and the United States would have worried and imposed sanctions, but things would not have gone further, since Russia has a Strategic Missile Forces.
  • Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 5 September 2021 08: 28
    +5
    Yeah .....! Interestingly the girls are dancing! Four pieces in a row! After all, they somehow forgot that September 1 is not only the Day of Knowledge and the beginning of the academic year, but also the beginning of WW2! (In any case, it is officially accepted ...) A lot has been said now on the VO page of interesting judgments ... there is something to read and learn new things for yourself! But I, for some reason, drew attention to such a small "fragment": The defense of Warsaw, except for additional proof that there were brave soldiers and intelligent officers in Poland, did not change anything and did not decide anything. The Poles showed extraordinary heroism, ** but there was already a little less sense in it than zero** By September 28, all this was nothing more than an act of patriotism. That is, the Author declares about senseless heroism, senseless patriotism ... there are, it turns out, in the opinion of the Author, and such concepts! It's so good that the Red Army soldiers who died in the summer of 1941, displaying "senseless" heroism and patriotism, senselessly engaging in battle at every line of defense ... senselessly fighting in the Brest Fortress ... senselessly defending Kiev and Moscow ... So it was "sincerely" believed both in Hitler's Germany, and in the allied Great Britain, the United States .... But was it not this "senseless heroism" that saved our country then? It was not "senseless heroism" that saved Russia in trouble before ... Russia? To blame the Poles for "senseless heroism"? Did the Poles know that their heroism was already meaningless or did they hope for something ... at least for a miracle? Does the Author know that in the history of wars there have been examples when soldiers deliberately went to their death, fighting in a "senseless" situation, because they were convinced that "the dead have no shame!" , and to experience the shame of defeat alive, captivity was unbearable for them !?
    1. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 5 September 2021 08: 35
      -6
      For the Poles in September 1939, this is not courage, but fanaticism and despair of a cornered rat. In general, the Poles had to capitulate as early as September 16, 1939, when the Polish government fled the country, it was pointless to resist further, and only led to unnecessary casualties.
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 5 September 2021 09: 14
        +5
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        In general, the Poles had to capitulate as early as September 16, 1939, when the Polish government fled the country, it was pointless to resist further, and only led to unnecessary casualties.

        Here ... here ... And the fascist Germans spoke about the same about the "fanaticism of the Russians" ... about the "communist fanatics" ... yes
        1. Kot_Kuzya
          Kot_Kuzya 5 September 2021 09: 23
          -4
          Quote: Nikolaevich I
          Here ... here ... And the fascist Germans spoke about the same about the "fanaticism of the Russians" ... about the "communist fanatics" ...

          Well, ours won thanks to their courage, perceived by the Germans as fanaticism. And the Poles lost anyway. And then the point is in unnecessary sacrifices? In addition, the Germans, taking prisoners, were immediately killed by the Germans if they found out that the prisoner was a communist, and it’s also good if they were just shot, and not mocked before execution. So there was no reason to surrender to the communists, so and so death, but in battle even an honorable death, and the enemy will remember you with involuntary respect, and not with contempt as a surrendered coward. Yes, and the surrendered non-communists had much higher chances of dying in captivity in the first weeks and months of captivity than surviving, in 1941 the Germans captured 3,8 million Red Army soldiers, by January 1, 1942, 2,4 million of them died, about 0,4 , 1 million were released or escaped from captivity, and about 2013 million remained in concentration camps (http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/0559/04/analitXNUMX.php). While the Polish prisoners of war, the Germans did not starve and deliberately did not destroy.
          1. Nikolaevich I
            Nikolaevich I 5 September 2021 15: 03
            0
            Quote: Kot_Kuzya
            And the Poles lost anyway. And then the point is in unnecessary sacrifices? the Germans did not starve Polish prisoners of war and did not specifically destroy them.
            Taking communists prisoners, the Germans immediately killed them if they found out that the prisoner was a communist, and it’s good if they just shot them, and didn’t mock them before the execution. So there was no reason to surrender to the communists, so and so death, but in battle even an honorable death, and the enemy will remember you with involuntary respect, and not with contempt as a surrendered coward. And the surrendered non-communists had a much higher chance of dying in captivity in the first weeks and months of captivity than they would survive. in 1941, the Germans captured 3,8 million Red Army soldiers, by January 1, 1942, 2,4 million of them had died, about 0,4 million were released or escaped from captivity, and about 1 million remained in concentration camps

            I understood you ! Fools are Germans! They should show their humanity to the Soviet prisoners of war in full ... well, at least until their complete victory ... And then the Red armies would not retreat to Moscow, resting their horns "at every kilometer"; and fled from Moscow with raised hands to meet the Germans captured! Comrade Red Army soldier! Calmly go over to the Germans. If you are hungry, they will feed you. If you are wounded, German doctors will give you first aid. Political leaders lie that the Germans are sending prisoners to hard labor in Germany. This is a blatant lie! Drive the liars! The Germans have always treated the prisoners well ... This is a text from a German leaflet ... an appeal to the Red Army ... So you didn't run? After all, the Bolsheviks lost anyway. What is the point, then, in unnecessary sacrifices? And the Germans will feed and heal! This is exactly what the Germans, the British, the Americans, and the weak-minded Soviet citizens spoke with conviction ... but whoever has not said this in the world! But they did not run ... and won ... not those who promised "milk and eggs" in captivity; and who fought “senselessly” and died “senselessly” without surrendering, that is, not intending to stop resistance ... Who ate German flesh, practically mad with hunger; but did not give up!
            PS This is not an "excuse" for the Poles! This is to justify "meaninglessness"! That "senselessness" that saved and saved Russia ...
      2. citizen
        citizen 5 September 2021 22: 23
        -1
        The Polish government fled on the night of September 17-18.
  • tatra
    tatra 5 September 2021 08: 38
    -2
    The main goal of rewriting the history of the Second World War by the invaders of the USSR, and their allies in the anti-Soviet-Russophobic West and in Europe, is the JUSTIFICATION of Hitler and the Europeans, who unleashed the Second World War as part of the Hitler coalition and attacked the USSR.
    They remember Hitler very little - only if they need to equate Stalin with him, and attribute to Stalin the guilt for the crimes of Hitler and the Nazis.
  • LORD-72
    LORD-72 5 September 2021 08: 41
    +4

    Everything was clear with Poland, both before the war and after, and in Europe itself ...
  • Vavilov
    Vavilov 5 September 2021 09: 12
    +2
    the jackal imagines himself equal to the lion, for which he paid, they were preparing to divide the "prey" themselves, but they themselves became it) really history does not teach anything, though only fools!
  • Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 5 September 2021 12: 29
    0
    When you write about mistakes, is it by chance not about the Second World War? Almost one to one.
  • Operator
    Operator 5 September 2021 15: 13
    -2
    Jews in their overwhelming majority have always been Russophobes - see the first post under the article.
    Even the world famous Polish anti-Semites who oppose the hated Russians are loved and respected by the Jews. bully
  • sleeve
    sleeve 5 September 2021 15: 13
    -2
    And I like the Poles. By my obstinacy. Honor. Spitefulness. After all, they cut like a reed on the shore. Every sixth. Cut with the aim of eliminating. Specifically. They came. They stopped genocide (6 million out of 34 is not genocide?). But no, just as we were to blame for all the Polish troubles, we remained and became even worse. This is how the Kremlin of 1613 was remembered ... For millennia. And the Poles have only one trouble. In Europe, they are strangers from the second class, and we are alien to them, enemies are simply. So the whole country is dangling in a historical ice hole.
  • sleeve
    sleeve 5 September 2021 15: 17
    0
    However, the Poles are still a nation of heroes. Eternal memory to the resistance fighters and eternal memory to the soldiers of the Polish Army, a loyal ally of the Soviet Army in the fight against fascism.
    1. Pushkar
      Pushkar 5 September 2021 22: 28
      +2
      Quote: sleeve
      However, the Poles are still a nation of heroes.

      Yes Yes. "Nation of Heroes" demolished 420 monuments to Soviet soldiers. Out of 561.
      Quote: sleeve
      a loyal ally of the Soviet Army in the fight against fascism.

      Especially the Home Army was our loyal ally.
      1. sleeve
        sleeve 5 September 2021 23: 05
        0
        In this there is justice not to lump together the order-bearing grandfathers in confederate women from the Polish army, the army of Ludovs, and arrogant companions who spent the whole war with trunks to the east, and their offspring with a sledgehammer at the monument with a star. You need to hate those for whom there is something to hate. I have no desire to be like those with whom my grandfathers fought.
        1. Pushkar
          Pushkar 6 September 2021 11: 03
          0
          Quote: sleeve
          You need to hate those for whom there is something to hate.

          Those bitch children who shot in the backs of the liberators died long ago. But for today's Poles, they are the real heroes and the Panovs are ready to repeat their "deeds". Should I love today's Poles for this? I'm not Leopold the cat.
          1. sleeve
            sleeve 6 September 2021 15: 06
            0
            Yes, I'm talking about respect for the present Polish heroes, so to speak from grains ... I'm not asking you to cut out your feelings at the sight of the moral garbage dump that is being built in Poland in relation to us and our past.
        2. Pushkar
          Pushkar 6 September 2021 11: 13
          0
          About justice. Army Ludov - existed from 1944 to 1945, the number of 45-60 thousand people, the Army of Craiova (the one that shot ours in the back) - from 1942 to 1945 (actually to 1950), the number of 350-380 thousand people.
          1. sleeve
            sleeve 6 September 2021 15: 07
            0
            But were these 45 thousand? Here I am grateful to them ... And the Polish Army, which came home by a straight road, and not in rounds like Andersen.
            1. Pushkar
              Pushkar 6 September 2021 18: 02
              0
              Quote: sleeve
              But were these 45 thousand?

              Have you noticed the date of the formation of the Human Army? At the beginning of 1944, our troops entered Poland, in August 1944 they were already near Warsaw, i.e. in the middle of Poland. Yes, and with the Polish Army there is an interesting story, it was formed on the territory of the USSR and after the departure of Anders' army, Polish citizens were not enough to form the Polish Army, and not everyone in this army was Poles. From wikipedia: The 1st Polish Army (1 Armia Wojska Polskiego) is a combined-arms formation (association, army) formed in the USSR in 1944 from Poles and servicemen of the USSR Armed Forces of other nationalities. [i] [/ i]
              1. sleeve
                sleeve 6 September 2021 18: 23
                +1
                I paid attention to everything. Is there a big difference for Janek or Sbyshek, who fell in the battles for Warsaw when the 1st army of the VP was formed? In politics, yes. Has a price and makes sense. For each individual Pole who lay down in the ground together with our 600 thousand, is it great? They were called under the banner, and thanks to some of them, some Vanya or Kostya was able to return home, and some Hans could not shoot towards the sunrise one more time. Brothers in Arms? Brothers. Were they not in the hardest years? Yes, when they were needed most. And now we erase them from the memory lists? Shall we erase it because of some unfinished bastards, destroying their own story with a squeal of pleasure? I don’t believe it. I don’t remember that all of us, as a whole, were at once beastly throughout history.
                1. Pushkar
                  Pushkar 7 September 2021 00: 40
                  0
                  Quote: sleeve
                  Is there a big difference for Janek or Sbyshek, who fell in the battles for Warsaw when the 1st army of the VP was formed?

                  We'll have to explain it in plain text. Ludov's army was created by our central headquarters of the partisan movement. Remember the raids by Kovpak formations in 1944? So he was the basis of AL. The Polish Army was created by our headquarters from the personnel of the Active Red Army. 248 officers from the old Polish army are not enough for the army, so they simply changed our soldiers and commanders into confederate uniforms. And despite this, for one Janek or Zbyshek who fought for us, there were 7-8 Janeks or Sysheks who fought against us until 1950 (officially). I haven't mentioned the Polish SSmans yet. And I don’t believe in "brothers" either, I had to communicate during the service. The only ones who were genuinely friendly were the Mongols.
                  1. sleeve
                    sleeve 7 September 2021 12: 06
                    0
                    Dear, I do not need your data in this (sorry for toftalogy) question. Thank you for taking such a detailed interest in history and most likely minute by minute and word for word you are citing the order on the formation of "military detachments friendly to the Soviet Union in the occupied territory." But ... The content of the commentary implies gratitude to those who have proven their brotherhood in arms by deeds. The fact that you embark on an "explanation" does you credit as an aspirant to convey and substantiate your point of view. But this is different. Well, I don’t call all Poland to bow low, she’s not at all for that. She would be at the right time, but they have the same calculating methods, and even pain from the allegedly lost greatness, and anger for what they have invented. We have the right to honor the heroes and chase the rest of the trash with pissing rags. That's what the comment is about. Arithmetic later. Together with the archives. Everything there has been clear for a long time. They would have to think about looking around, but the hussar wings behind their backs interfere.
                    1. Pushkar
                      Pushkar 8 September 2021 12: 36
                      0
                      Quote: sleeve
                      sorry for toftalogy

                      I understood. You are not interested in someone else's opinion.
                      1. sleeve
                        sleeve 8 September 2021 16: 31
                        0
                        What is it? Why are you looking so hard for counter? In this matter, I am more on your side, but private and honest gratitude is, in my opinion, an extremely valuable feature of the worldview. This is probably why we do not forget the operation (convoy) "Dervish", despite the utter bestiality on the part of the descendants of those who stood on the decks of those ships. You need to remember everything, to the details, to the last child's tear, and not just a drop of blood. Therefore, I will probably never justify the Germans. It may be good that we are all mortal and someday that will change. But while I am alive for myself personally, no. And I wish you not to change your worldview, but I repeat, honest gratitude is a valuable thing in our cynical and shameless time.
  • citizen
    citizen 5 September 2021 22: 21
    -1
    And the only surprise is that Poland has the same allies again.

    Well, not with Russia to be allies of Poland.
    1. sleeve
      sleeve 5 September 2021 23: 13
      0
      Well, yes, I agree. With Germany it is more correct. For 6 million of its inhabitants.
  • citizen
    citizen 5 September 2021 22: 52
    0
    The defense of Warsaw, except for additional proof that there were brave soldiers and intelligent officers in Poland, did not change anything and did not decide anything. The Poles showed an extraordinary heroism, but there was already a little less sense in it than zero, by September 28, all this was nothing more than an act of patriotism.

    Before September 17th there was another meaning.
    AMBASSADOR SCHULENBURG - IN THE GERMAN MFA
    Telegram
    Moscow, September 14, 1939 - 18 p.m. 00 minutes
    Urgently!
    Top secret!
    Telegram No. 350 of September 14
    To your telegram No. 336 of September 13
    Molotov called me today at 16 pm and announced that the Red Army had reached a state of readiness sooner than expected. Therefore, Soviet actions may begin earlier than the date indicated by him [Molotov] during the last conversation (see my telegram No. 317 of September 10). Given the political motivation for the Soviet action (the fall of Poland and the protection of the Russian "minorities"), it would be extremely important [for the Soviets] not to act before the fall of the administrative center of Poland - Warsaw. Molotov therefore asks to be informed as accurately as possible when it is possible to count on the capture of Warsaw.
    Please send instructions.
    I would like to draw your attention to today's article in Pravda transmitted by the DNB, to which a similar article in Izvestia will be added tomorrow. These articles contain the political motivation for the Soviet intervention mentioned by Molotov.
    Schulenburg
    1. Ashes of Claes
      Ashes of Claes 6 September 2021 08: 51
      0
      Quote: burger
      Molotov therefore asks to be informed as accurately as possible when it is possible to count on the capture of Warsaw.

      The point is precisely in this "more precisely". because on September 8 Schulenburg already reported to the People's Commissariat for Foreign Affairs that the Wehrmacht entered Warsaw (by the way, Soviet intelligence confirmed this), and the next day it turned out that they were "in a hurry." And Warsaw held out for another 20 days.
      1. citizen
        citizen 6 September 2021 10: 28
        0
        The thing is
        Given the political motivation of the Soviet action (the fall of Poland and the protection of the Russian "minorities"), it would be extremely important [for the Soviets] not to act before the fall of the administrative center of Poland - Warsaw.
  • sleeve
    sleeve 6 September 2021 03: 54
    0
    But I wonder what articles are published in Poland on June 22? Maybe none at all?
    1. citizen
      citizen 6 September 2021 10: 33
      -1
      Probably about the same as on May 10, April 6 (by the way, it influenced very much on June 22), on April 9 they are released in Russia.
      1. Ashes of Claes
        Ashes of Claes 6 September 2021 13: 12
        0
        Quote: burger
        Probably about the same as on May 10, April 6 (by the way, it influenced very much on June 22), on April 9 they are released in Russia.

        subtle note)
        I am afraid that those who believe that the whole world should know and remember the date of June 22 will not understand why you are doing this)
        For clarity, forgot December 7)
  • Tests
    Tests 6 September 2021 11: 49
    0
    Dear commentators! Mushrooms near Severodvinsk are twigs and twigs, no frosts, +3 at night, +8 in the daytime, it rains and pours, there is a storm on the sea, please understand and forgive me, I could only voice my questions today, there is no Internet in the forest ...
    Maybe someone knows why, when planning Operation Peking, only Polish destroyers were agreed to leave for Great Britain? The submarines "Eagle" and "Sip" were, after all, completely new ... Maybe someone knows what and where the minelay of Poland "Grif" was doing on August 30 and 31, 1939? Everyone is waiting for the beginning of the war from day to day - the destroyers, in fact, are evacuating. And the minelay, instead of being at sea, ready to lay mines, is doing something somewhere, so much so that even after 82 years the answer is behind a curtain of rumors ...
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 6 September 2021 12: 16
    -1
    The attempts of a quite average European state to play as a superpower ... could not have had any other result.


    It's like with the current ... 404 wassat
  • ABC-schütze
    ABC-schütze 6 September 2021 12: 50
    0
    And you have forgotten that the USSR did not enter "Poland", but the territory of the FORMER Polish state that had lost its statehood, which ceased to exist ...

    Moreover, fleeing the country, a certain Marshal Rydz Smigly ordered the Polish army not to resist the Red Army ...

    For this, your thesis about a certain "invasion of the USSR" into a certain "Poland" is resting ...
    1. Ashes of Claes
      Ashes of Claes 6 September 2021 15: 19
      0
      Quote: ABC-schütze
      Have you forgotten that the USSR did not enter "Poland", but the territory of the FORMER Polish state that had lost its statehood?

      but why, forget it here ... Through the commentary they remind ... laughing
  • Thomas the Unbelieving
    Thomas the Unbelieving 6 September 2021 13: 24
    0
    When will this lie stop? The results of the First World War provided an incentive for the next war. German capital and Japanese militarists demanded a new redivision of the world. The winners of the last war did not want to fight and therefore began to feed the Nazis with handouts in the form of Austria, Czechoslovakia, etc. In fact, the Poles are now taking upon themselves not what it actually was. The Second World War began not in 1939 or 1941, but earlier, when Germany in Europe captured Austria, Japan invaded China in Asia, Italy in 1936 in Africa captured Ethiopia. Only when it came to Poland, with which Britain and France had concluded a corresponding treaty, did they have to start a war with Germany, which is called "strange" in all sources. Their main goal was to set Germany against the USSR and profit from it.
    Therefore, it is not surprising that the behavior of the so-called "allies" in 1941-1945. Their troops marched anywhere, but not in Germany: in North Africa, in Italy, in the Balkans, etc. They went against Germany only when the outcome of the war became clear and it was possible to plunder a weakened and exhausted Germany with impunity. Therefore, for British and American imperialism, the Second World War could not end in 1945, since the goals set by the ruling circles of the United States and the British Empire were not achieved.
    Therefore, with a big reservation, it should be said that World War II began with Germany's attack on Poland, as well as that the Great Patriotic War was a war of fascism and communism. To some extent, the war against the USSR was indeed a war of ideologies. But not only. The war that ended for us with the surrender of Germany in 1945 was a war for the survival of the peoples of the Soviet Union from the attack of imperialist predators. However, unlike the First World War, it did not end with the conclusion of peace treaties. In reality, the act of unconditional surrender of Germany and Japan led to their occupation by the victorious powers.
    Therefore, for now, I'm going to have a peaceful respite for us.
  • Borisych
    Borisych 7 September 2021 00: 11
    -1
    Two Nazis - Hitler and Piłsudski were friends - are inseparable. Then Pan Jerzy glued the flippers together, and the real Nazi was left alone with Poland. Of course, Adolf did not forgive the Poles for their disrespect for Germany's views on Danzig. And quite naturally, knocked the remnants of their brains out of them. Therefore, today's world has got brainless lords. The logic of the story, yes.