Military Review

The golden empire under the blows of the Mongols

131

Siege of the capital of the Golden Empire, Kaifeng. Source: Yin Shilin, Zhang Jianyo China 5000 years stories... SPB., 2008


Mongolian steppe on the eve of the invasion


The Tatars, as we wrote about in the previous article, were Jin's allies in the Mongol steppe for a long time. But for some reason, friction began between them. In 1198, the Jurchens made a campaign in the Mongol steppe, which ended in nothing, while Genghis Khan destroyed the Tatars, which for several centuries had been the hegemon in this steppe region and was in alliance with the southern empire. Genghis Khan received the approval of Ambassador Jin and the title of Zhao-Tao - the leader of punitive expeditions. And Jin lost a reliable ally, acquiring an extremely dubious partner, as it will become clear later.

The name "Tatars" remained a common noun for centuries, especially in the European and Russian traditions, where their invasion in 1237 was designated in the annals as Tatar-Mongolian.

It so happened that the emperor Chang-tsong, who had been ruling since 1188, died in 1207, and was replaced by the emperor Wei-shao-wang, who received the name Yong-tszi and Xing-sheng. The empire traditionally notified all neighbors about the change of ruler. When Timuchin learned the name of the new emperor from the ambassador, he did not go to the Jin court with a tribute, being an official official of the empire, but said:

“I thought that the sovereign of the Middle State would be a man given by Heaven. But when this person can also be a sovereign, then why should I go to him to worship? "

The fact is that Genghis Khan was personally acquainted with Wei-shao-wan, who was the head of the embassy to the Mongols and made a depressing impression on the Mongol leader.

But Genghis Khan began a war with another empire on the territory of modern China, the Tangut state of Xi Xia. Here the Mongols practiced the skills of war with cities, and also secured their western flank before the start of the war with the Golden Empire, to which they had irrational, from the point of view of modern man, claims:

“Altan Khan [Emperor Jin] ... expected submission and obedience from Genghis Khan; in addition, - reported Rashid ad-Din, - the sovereigns of Hitai killed several people from the older generations of Genghis Khan ... For these reasons, enmity and strife arose between them. When the Almighty Truth gave Genghis Khan strength and power, and a large army gathered to him, he considered it necessary for himself to take revenge and avenge the old enmity [and] set out with a large army to fight against Altan Khan. "

The golden empire under the blows of the Mongols
Jurchen warriors. Reconstruction by M.V. Gorelik

The outbreak of war


At the same time, various calamities, hunger, diseases, and threatening heavenly signs fell on the Jin empire, while the "border robbers", as the chronicle of the steppe dwellers called them, had already tried their teeth on the borders of the empire:

"In the second month, a strong wind blew from the north, from which houses were destroyed and trees were broken."

On the second moon, between February 15 - March 11, 1211, Genghis Khan, having broken through a powerful system of engineering fortifications, began an invasion of the south and southeast of the Golden Empire, two armies and an embassy were sent to meet him with a request to stop the invasion.

Immediately began the flight of both noble persons and entire ethnic groups to the Mongols. Thus, the Khitan princes Yelyu Ahan and Yelyu Tukhua, who dreamed of restoring the Liao empire, went over to Chinggis Khan, especially since he “avenged” the ancient rulers of these lands, the Khitan.

The Mongols seriously prepared to overcome the fortifications, since they already had the experience of war with the urban empire of Xi Xia. They treated horses with particular care, preferring to use warriors at work. Genghis Khan prudently left two tumens in his rear to control the steppe so that the scattered tribes of opponents would not unite in his absence.

At first, this campaign of Genghis Khan looked more like a raid. Many towns and small fortresses were taken on the border. Rashid ad-Din especially emphasizes the capture of the city of Sigin with large houses, the sons of Khan Jochi, Chagatai and Ogedei as the most important event. While the capture of a large city was indeed a significant event for the Mongols, at the same time, they did not dare to capture the entire region.

In the summer, no hostilities took place, perhaps that is why the generals Qian Dzyanu (Duji Qianjianu) and Cheng-yu, the sons of the future emperor Xuanzong (1213–1223), did nothing.

In the fall, Jebe was sent on a campaign, who captured cities most often by cunning.

The armies of the empire, without engaging in battle, retreated. Their retreat turned into a flight, which, of course, was taken advantage of by the Mongols, who pounced on them like hounds. The local residents offered the commanders a battle, pointing out the features of the terrain that would help defeat the Mongols, but the "general" Cheng-yu did not want to listen to them.

The commanders preferred to retreat. Cheng-yu's army reached the Yanghe River, where it was completely dispersed.

Battle of Hunegen


Genghis Khan took the large city of Fu-chzheu, and the commanders of the Golden Empire hoped that the nomads, who received such a huge prize, burdened with prey, would not be able to advance immediately.

But contrary to their assumptions, Genghis Khan crossed the Elukhin ridge, moving towards the Great Wall of China. The commander Zhebe, who was walking in front, approached the Chabchiala fortress (Tszyu-yong-guan), which was part of the Great Wall of China. Here he became convinced that it was almost impossible to take it. And in Syun-de-fus, not far from here, Genghis Khan is located. So the Mongol army was divided. Tszyu-jin and other commanders of the Golden Empire thought that now they would be able to defeat the divided troops of the Mongols, since, according to the "Secret Legend", they had the best troops from the Jurchen, Khitan and Chinese.

This is how the battle began at Hunegen or Hunegen Hill or Elukhin. The Secret Legend emphasizes the extreme importance of this battle, which was then often recalled at the court of Genghis Khan.

So, a huge army of the empire moved on the Mongols of Zhebe:

“At the time when Genghis Khan received [about this] notification,” wrote Rashid-ad-Din, “[his] army, having cooked food, was busy eating. They poured out the cauldrons, hastily set out and, awaiting the arrival of the enemy, stood up in two detachments. "

Chinggis Khan's army became a reserve regiment. Chzhebe, using his favorite tactics, began to retreat to the Xun-te-fu cape. Thus, the enemy's army occupied the entire valley and lost its advantage, which it had at the expense of numbers. Chjebe was able to significantly reduce the length of the front in his favor, after which the flight ceased, and he fell in his ranks on the randomly pursuing troops. Control was lost, the Jurchen, Khitan and Chinese infantry obeyed their generals and did not have a common command. Following the blow from the side of Chepe, the scattered enemy was attacked by the head of the Mongols himself. The rout was complete. On the shoulders of the retreating enemy, the Mongols also broke through the impregnable fortress Tszui-yung-guan.


The great Wall of China. PRC. Photo by the author

The road to the middle capital of Jin was open. At this time, "General" Lian-tan brought order to the panic-stricken capital. Governor Tashan-i sent an army of 20 there, and the Mongols, seeing such a demonstration of power, retreated from the city of Yanzin (Beijing).

The emperor appointed a bold and determined governor as "minister", and at the meeting he explained the situation. His report, made at the beginning of the XIII century, gives an answer to the questions that arise again today - how did the "wild Mongols from the wild steppes" manage ... I will quote his words:

“Since the beginning of the war, the Mongolian army acts collectively, and we defend ourselves separately. When they attack our scattered troops with their common forces, we are constantly being defeated. So, it is more profitable for us to gather people for protection in the main cities and with united forces to resist the enemy. "

The Jurchens, who themselves only a hundred years ago conquered Liao and part of the Song thanks to the shock columns of the cavalry, were unable to concentrate their forces.

But his words did not find a response from the emperor Wei-shao-wang, it was not for nothing that Genghis Khan considered him narrow-minded. Opponents of Tashan-yi objected that the temporary withdrawal of troops from different regions of the empire in order to protect key facilities and concentration of troops is inappropriate, since it would reduce the territory of the empire and undermine the emperor's prestige. So the formal demands of prestige won out over rational arguments.

The Mongols immediately took advantage of this situation. The battle took place near the western capital of Sijing (present-day Datong), where only 7 thousand Jingians were defeated, and the governor Hushahu (Hashile Chzhi-chung), who had lost the battle, was appointed commander of the right wing of the empire's troops.

In addition to the troubles in management, a struggle began against the power of the Jurchens of the subordinate ethnic groups of the Jin Empire, which the Mongols took advantage of. In the winter of 1211/1212, a thousand-man rebelled in Manchuria, the Khitan Yelui Luge and Jin lost these lands, and he became a subject of Genghis Khan. The Khitan and even the Jurchens fled from the army. The same can be said about the Chinese, for example, the ambassador or "general" Min-an went over to the side of the Mongol khan.

The empire began to experience a shortage of local managers, in modern parlance. The Mongols captured, more precisely, defeated and plundered a huge territory from the northern regions of the modern Shanxi province, from the borders of Xi Xia, to the modern Liaoning province, the indigenous lands of the Jurchens.

Once the leaders of the Jurchen stood up personally at the head of the troops, now their emperor became a completely civilian official, according to the Chinese model, and could not lead the hostilities personally. Because of which there was a constant leapfrog in the military administration, for example, the "general", the governor of the western capital, Khushan, was demoted and sent to the village, then returned to duty.

Finally, the Golden Empire received a respite, since Genghis Khan went to Mongolia. During this time, new forces, Uighurs and Karluk Turks, have joined him. The fame and wealth captured in China attract desperate heroes to the Mongols.

In the spring of 1212, three columns of the Mongols entered Jin again. The reason was Jin's refusal to let ambassadors to the Song Dynasty empire.

A battle took place in the Tongguan Gorge. The gullibility with which the swaggering commanders of the Golden Empire approached the war with the barbarians from the north again led to the defeat of the army, which met the invasion:

"Such an extermination of the Kitadians began, it is written in the" Secret Legend ", as if we were breaking dry branches."

Having passed the already plundered north, they continued the war with the empire, taking Datong, the western capital. In 1213 the Mongols plundered in the southern provinces of Jin, took the city of Chang-de-fu. Simultaneously with their attacks, Sun began a campaign against the Golden Empire. But if the Jurchens were able to cope with them, then this could not be done with the Mongols.

After the disgrace, "General" Khushan, as I wrote above, was returned to service, but he turned his troops to the capital and made a coup, the Emperor Wei-shao-wang was executed to please the Mongols, and Prince I-bath was placed on the throne under the name Xuanzong.

By that time, the Mongols defeated and took by storm all the cities up to the river. Yellow River, and the new emperor asked for peace. He sent the daughter of the murdered emperor to wife Genghis Khan, and the "conqueror of the universe" agreed to a truce.

Genghis Khan left the plundered Golden Empire through Tszyu-yong-guan, and the left wing of the Mongol army returned along the coast of the East China Sea, where the lands of the Jurchen tribes conquered them without a fight.

Emperor Xuanzong and his advisers understood that it was impossible to defeat the Mongols without concentration of forces, but there were few opportunities to concentrate efforts. As the report of one of the officials showed, the prolonged lack of training of troops, the appointment to command positions or the offspring of noble families, or due to their impressive appearance (!) Severely hurt the army.

Despite the fact that during the battles brave and skillful commanders appeared, they could not compete with the Mongols either in quality, or in the level of training, and, most likely, in motivation. Although they successfully defeated the troops of Xi Xia and Song. And hostilities took place against Xia, whose troops attacked the borders by order of the Mongols in 1214. Despite the fact that Xia was defeated and sent her gifts to Emperor Jin, a decade of hostilities began, which exhausted both countries in the face of the Mongols.

This meant that, although the Mongols defeated a huge number of cities north of the Yellow River, the Jurchens still exercised control over them, even the northern capital of Dalichen was captured by the nomads only in the winter from 1214 to 1215.

Jin, plundered and losing part of the land, had significant forces, and the Mongols could not yet seize the country.

It seems that the Mongols initially did not have such a goal, the goal was to put under control the agricultural states, expose them to exo-exploitation and control the threats from them. That is why in 1214, returning to the steppe, the head of the Mongols ordered to chop up a huge full, tens of thousands of young men and women.

New war


But the truce lasted only a month.

The fact is that after it began, the emperor decided to move with his court from Yanzin (Beijing) to the southern capital, Kaifeng. During the transition, part of the army, consisting of ethnic Khitan and Tatars, as Rashid ad-Din writes, raised an uprising and called for help from the Mongols, who did not fail to take advantage of the situation. These rebel troops will take part in the siege of Beijing.

The Mongols captured 862 cities in the north of the country in 1215, nevertheless, they besieged the average capital for a whole year. Those besieged from hunger ate human flesh. And the defending troops and commanders of the empire took part in the siege. After the capture of Zhongdu or Yanzin (Beijing), the commander-in-chief of the city Cheng-hoi and his son took poison. And Genghis Khan made unacceptable demands to the emperor of the Golden Empire: the emperor should be called "wan" and a vassal of Genghis Khan, and also give up the lands north of the Yellow River.

The nomads could not yet completely overcome the agricultural state with a huge population. But ten years of wars against Xi Xia and Jin were not in vain. The Mongols mastered new ways of waging battle: if before this city they had to take by cunning, now they possessed the technical means of siege, having mastered the technologies from the sedentary states.

And it was here that a multilingual army began to take shape, intended only for wars of conquest and robbery. From the subjects of Jin, 48 military units were created (Ambis L.).

The Mongols actively lured the Golden subjects over to their side, for example, Yelyu Chutsai, "long beard", as Genghis Khan, heir to the Liao emperors called him, became an adviser to the great khan in the western campaign, his astrologer, and later the author of the government reform of conquered China under Ogedei ...

In 1216, Chinggis Khan installed his associate Mukhali go as a wan (prince of the state) of all the conquered lands in China and handed him a nine-tailed bunchuk, a symbol meaning that the great khan himself is continuing the war.

Exhaustion of forces


Chinggis Khan, having received information about the wealth of the "West", turned his gaze to Central Asia, but the war of the Jin Empire with the Mongols continued despite a sharp decrease in the size of the former.

The Mongols used all the methods, as it is customary to call it now in science, exo-exploitation. The purpose of which was the constant receipt of a surplus product through wars, raids and robberies. The problem that the pre-state Jurchen society faced, having quickly conquered the Liao empire, did not face the Mongols. They had the strength and capabilities, and they had to fight the strong and wealthy sedentary ethnic groups that had already formed, albeit a primitive, but civilization. What next.

And Xi Xia and Great Jin are at war with each other in 1217, 1218 and 1219. Peace proponents in both courts were in the minority, and clashes continued. Under these conditions, Xia turned to Song for an alliance. In 1221, the Tanguts and the Chinese, dividing their zones of responsibility, began a siege of Gongzhou (near modern Zhengzhou), which cost them 10 thousand killed. Finally, in 1224, peace was concluded, and Emperor Jin was recognized as an older brother by Xi Xia. It was a belated peace, while the main forces of Genghis Khan were in the west, the two northern states in China were depleting each other.

If Xi Xia fell in 1227 under the blows of the Mongols, then the struggle against Jin advanced more heavily among the Mongols.

The last days of the Golden Empire


After the return of the Mongols from the western campaign, the situation changed dramatically, if earlier the Jin lands were considered as a source of material values ​​for the Mongols, now the question was about the complete subordination of these lands as part of the Mongol empire. Moreover, all the loot in previous campaigns was handed out.

For this, the Mongols had both the strength and the cadres capable of solving such problems. First of all, the question arose about the complete destruction of the population and the transformation of Chinese lands into pastures, but the "long beard", adviser and astrologer of Genghis Khan Eluy Chutsai persuaded to impose taxes on the conquered Jin lands since 1231.

After the death of Genghis Khan, who died in a campaign against Xi Xia, his heir Ogedei decided to complete the conquest he had begun and personally set out against the remnants of Jin in 1231. The same Jebe was in front. Ogedei, like his father, passed through Chabchial (Tszyu-yong-guan), here he defeated the Jin field army and began sieging cities. But he fell ill, the fortunetellers associated his illness with the Chinese evil spirits, against whom they put their spells and thus saved the great khan.

The Mongols' ally was the Southern Song empire, claiming lands that had once been torn away by the Jin. Liaodong fell in 1233.


Mongolian sword. XIII century. Beijing Museum. PRC Photo author

In 1233 the Mongols also reached Kaefin, crossing the Yellow River, Subedei led the siege of the capital. Emperor Jin Aizong and the remaining forces retreated to Caizhou (Runan). The Song army also arrived here, which built siege engines and actively stormed the city's towers.

The Jin ambassadors warned Emperor Song that they would be next, but the Sung people, blinded by the desire for revenge, did not take these words.

So the last stronghold of the Jurchens fell under the blows of the Mongols and Sunts, the emperor hanged himself.

The Sung people, claiming the southern lands beyond the Yellow River, received an immediate rebuff, and the Mongol war began against the Chinese Sung empire.

To be continued ...

Sources and literature:

Secret legend. Mongolian Chronicle of 1240 titled Mongol-un niruca tobciyan, Moscow, 1941.
Rashid ad-Din. Collection of chronicles. Volume I. Book 2. M., 1952.
Hambis L. Documents sur l'histoire des Mongols à l'époque des Ming. Paris, 1969.
History of the Golden Empire / Per. G.M. Rozova, comments. A.G. Malyavkina. Novosibirsk: Publishing house of the Institute of Archeology and Ethnography SB RAS, 1998.
History of the East. T. II. M., 1993.
Kradin N.N. Nomads of Eurasia. Almaty. 2017.
Kychanov E.I. Essays on the history of the Tangut state. M., 1968.
Articles from this series:
China and Mongols. Prologue.
China and Mongols. Iron Empire.
On the Mongolian border. Xi Xia Empire.
On the eve of the Mongol invasion. Golden empire
Mongol nomadic empire. How and why?
Mongol sword over the Xia empire
Author:
131 comment
Ad

Subscribe to our Telegram channel, regularly additional information about the special operation in Ukraine, a large amount of information, videos, something that does not fall on the site: https://t.me/topwar_official

Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. parusnik
    parusnik 27 August 2021 05: 09
    +3
    The Jin ambassadors warned the Song emperor that they would be next
    They died one by one.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 August 2021 10: 22
      +6
      Where and when Alexei was different. Alas, the Mongols were not the first or the last to remind their neighbors of this truth. However, a century later, the Tatar-Mongolian uluses faced a similar problem, when the fragments of the Empire of Genghis Khan began to fall under the blows of neighbors yesterday bowing their backs to the "Shakers of the Universe".
  2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 August 2021 05: 09
    +7
    Edward - gorgeous, really, really liked it !!
    Regards, Vlad!
  3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 August 2021 05: 51
    +3
    The Edward cycle made me think about an interesting point. Almost all global migration processes in the history of their era are associated with "hikes after the sun." Time after time hordes: Scythians, Roxalans, Sarmatians, Iy-kov, Huns, Avars, Turks, Ugrians, Pechenegs, Polovtsians, Tatar-Mongols, Kalmyks - over and over again rolled from the east! The only exception can be called the resettlement of the Aryans, Goths, Slavs and Russia). With the Aryans, it is true that everything happens at the dawn of history, the Goths and Slavs carried out their expansion from north to south and back. Russia, resting on the west, went east. All this is conditional, but interesting for discussion.
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 27 August 2021 08: 12
      +1
      So modern people spread from the West to the East - Africa - Asia-Europe-North America-South. Then branches went))
      1. Operator
        Operator 27 August 2021 13: 56
        +2
        Modern people (not Khoisans) spread from the west (89 thousand years ago, Palestine) to the east (67 thousand years ago, Laos) in order to then spread to the west (45 thousand years ago, Europe and Africa).
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 27 August 2021 14: 51
          +3
          I have not read anywhere that Canaan (the Land of Israel with its capital in one and indivisible Jerusalem) was the ancestral home of mankind request
          1. Operator
            Operator 27 August 2021 15: 53
            +2
            This is new information: in Israel, they found bone remains of a man aged 89 thousand years, who was a carrier of the BT haplogroup - descendant of the very first haplogroup A of the Homo Sapiens (224 thousand years old), which are now carried by the Khoisans (Bushmen and Hottentots) and part African blacks.
            67 thousand years ago, in the region of Southeast Asia, BT began to be divided into B, C, D, E, etc. with the migration of carriers B to the west, C to the south and north, D to the north, E to the west, etc.
            Intermediate carriers of BT (bone remains) on the migration route from the Middle East to southeast Asia have not yet been found.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 27 August 2021 20: 41
              +1
              Like, the Canaanites immigrated to Africa, and not vice versa?
              1. Operator
                Operator 27 August 2021 21: 11
                0
                The Canaanites are haplogroup J, which separated from BT 43 thousand years ago somewhere in the vastness of East Asia and migrated back to the Middle East about 20 thousand years ago.
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 27 August 2021 23: 55
                  +1
                  What do you mean by the concept of a gallogroup? People with a specific set of gene mutations?
                  1. Operator
                    Operator 28 August 2021 01: 35
                    +1
                    The Y chromosome has an informational region that is not involved in the coding of hereditary traits. It consists of a set of DNA proteins, the sequence of which in the son corresponds to the set of proteins in the father - with the exception of mutations in individual proteins. Over several generations, mutations accumulate and make it possible to distinguish descendants from their ancestors.

                    On average, mutations occur with a frequency of once every 25 years. The rate at which mutations accumulate is called the molecular clock.

                    The first male homo sapiens in history with the age of 224 thousand years had differences from its ancestor by one or more mutations in the informational part of the Y-chromosome, nomenclature it is called haplorguppa A (the first letter in the alphabet). His descendants accumulated mutations in their Y chromosomes and, with the accumulation of many differences, they nomenclaturely refer to A0, A00, A000, A1, A1a, A1b, etc.

                    According to the hypothesis of Anatoly Klesov, one of the carriers of A left Africa to Asia (the Middle East), there passed through the "ear of coal" (closely related crossing) and received a number of anatomical "deformities" that distinguish him from the Khoisans (haplogroup A). The haplogroup of this person is nomenclaturally called BT - in the sense that it is common to all other homo sapiens.

                    Then the BT began to divide into separate haplogroups in connection with the reproduction of this group of homo sapiens and the accumulation of different mutations of the Y chromosome in the subgroups.
                    1. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar 28 August 2021 09: 06
                      0
                      It consists of a set of DNA proteins, the sequence of which in the son corresponds to the set of proteins in the father - with the exception of mutations in individual proteins. Over several generations, mutations accumulate and make it possible to distinguish descendants from their ancestors.

                      Not informative from the point of view of historians for determining ethnic origin for 10 thousand years. War-wear. Adjulters. Neophytes. Other.
                      According to the hypothesis of Anatoly Klesov, one of the carriers of A left Africa to Asia (Middle East

                      So all the same from Africa
                      1. Operator
                        Operator 28 August 2021 14: 44
                        -3
                        Not informative only from the point of view of stupid historians:
                        - the overwhelming majority of carriers of specific haplogroups from the 67th millennium BC until about 10 millennium BC (Neolithic) lived in a tribal system, absolutely not mixing with the carriers of other haplogroups, so then there was a direct correspondence haplogroup-tribe-language;
                        - in Europe, this direct correspondence lasted until the beginning of the 5th millennium BC. (the moment of the Erbine invasion R1b), even the settlements of the Illyrians and Aryans, even mixed on the territory of Western Europe in the English Channel, were until this time accompanied by the burials of strictly one haplogroup or I or R1a;
                        - the mixing of haplogroups within the same ethnic group on the territory of Europe and Asia begins only with the beginning of the Copper / Bronze Age (3rd millennium BC), an increase in population density and large-scale migrations of Aryans, Ugro-Finns, Scandinavians, Turks, etc., but this is already the time of the emergence of writing, which helps to trace the mixing of ethnic groups;
                        - but the most important thing is that at the moment each ethnic group has its own unique gene pool (set and structure of haplogroups), which allows us to track its history and movement across the Earth.

                        Khoisans (haplogroup A) are anatomically different from all other homo sapiens (haplogroups from B to T). Therefore, Klesov says that carrier A came out of Africa, and his descendant carrier BT (anatomically different from the Khoisans) was formed already in Asia - that is, did not come out of Africa.
                      2. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 28 August 2021 17: 11
                        -1
                        But the most important thing is that at the moment each ethnic group has its own unique gene pool (set and structure of haplogroups), which allows us to track its history and movement across the Earth.

                        Mistake. If the ethnos did not mix much with those around them - the Iraqi Kurds / Yezidis / Arabized population of northern Iraq, then yes - for example, most of them have penicillin intolerance due to the lack of G6PD.
                        But take any modern Western Europeans - French and Spaniards, mixed with Romans, Huns, Moors and others, and you will see that by the gallogroup you can only track the inhabitants of some very isolated valley with three villages on the outskirts of the country. ))
                        in the area of ​​the English Channel, the settlements of the Illyrians and Aryans until this time were accompanied by the burials of strictly one haplogroup or I or R1a;
                        - the mixing of haplogroups within the same ethnic group on the territory of Europe and Asia begins only with the beginning of the Copper / Bronze Age (3rd millennium BC), an increase in population density and large-scale migrations of the Aryans
                        5 thousand years ago there was no smell of Aryans in the English Channel, although Hitler's historians tried to pull the owl onto the globe laughing And Klesov decided to substantiate this with gallogroups
                      3. Operator
                        Operator 28 August 2021 17: 40
                        -1
                        It gets to you badly - like the aforementioned historians bully

                        The last time - modern ethnic groups (and Kurds, including) are all mixed, their culture and language is determined by whether or not cultural and linguistic assimilation was applied to them by other peoples. As a result of assimilation, for example, the Irish (86% R1b) speak a hybrid of their native Euskara and Sanskrit, the British (80% R1b) - a hybrid of Euskara, Sanskrit and Illyrian, Lithuanians (50% R1a + 50% N1a1) - a hybrid of Sanskrit and Ugrian with a predominance of Sanskrit, Latvians (40% R1a + 40% N1a1) - on a hybrid of Sanskrit and Ugric, with a predominance of Ugric, etc. etc.

                        The Kurds you mentioned (80% J2 + 20% R1a-Z93) speak a hybrid of Sanskrit and Nakh.

                        Few of modern ethnic groups have retained their native (based on the dominant haplogroup in their gene pool) language, including Basques, Slavs, Chinese, Berbers, Chechens, Ingush, Abkhaz, Mongols.

                        There are completely mestizo peoples (without any dominant haplogroup in their gene pool), for example, Greeks (E1 + J2 + R1b + R1a) and Jews (J1 + J2 + E1 + R1b + R1a). For example - the last at the end of the 1st millennium BC. completely lost their native language and switched to Arabic Aramaic, and then to hybrid Yiddish. Only in 1947 did the Jewish immigrants begin the transition to their native Yiddish.
                      4. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 28 August 2021 19: 54
                        0
                        You don't get it right - like the aforementioned bully historians

                        So I understand a little more in medical genetics laughing
                        The last time - modern ethnic groups (and Kurds, including) are all mixed, their culture and language is determined by whether or not cultural and linguistic assimilation was applied to them by other peoples. As a result of assimilation, for example, the Irish (86% R1b) speak a hybrid of their native Euskara and Sanskrit, the British (80% R1b) - a hybrid of Euskara, Sanskrit and Illyrian, Lithuanians (50% R1a + 50% N1a1) - a hybrid of Sanskrit and Ugrian with a predominance of Sanskrit, Latvians (40% R1a + 40% N1a1) - on a hybrid of Sanskrit and Ugric, with a predominance of Ugric, etc. etc.

                        Please give an example of English words of Sanskrit origin. At least three words.
                        For example - the last at the end of the 1st millennium BC. completely lost their native language and switched to Arabic Aramaic, and then to hybrid Yiddish. Only in 1947 did the Jewish immigrants begin the transition to their native Yiddish.

                        what
                        1) Hebrew in the 1st century BC up to 3-4 you. AD was both colloquial and "academic", as well as the language of religious texts, prayers, etc. Then he remained only religious.
                        2) Aramaic is much closer to Hebrew than Arabic, roughly - I understand written Aramaic, with Arabic there is a big difference. It was the language of interethnic communication in the region, like Russian in the post-Soviet space.
                        3) In addition to Yiddish, there were Romeyskaya, Conte, Ladino, etc.
                        4) They returned to Hebrew, not Yiddish, in the 10s of the 20th century.
                      5. Operator
                        Operator 28 August 2021 22: 12
                        0
                        Three (three), is (is), not (not).

                        The transition of Middle Eastern Jews to Aramaic is a classic example of assimilation by the Macedonians, who colonized both Syria and Israel with Judea, and until the Maccabean uprising successfully spread paganism in Judea (Israel was already pagan). And it was more profitable for Gentile Jews to speak Arabic Aramaic than Jewish Hebrew.

                        Hebrew, of course.
                      6. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 29 August 2021 08: 54
                        +1
                        And in Sanskrit, how will these three words be?
                        And I think all three words are of Latin origin: tria, este, but hi
                        The Macedonians, who colonized both Syria and Israel with Judea, and until the Maccabean uprising successfully planted paganism in Judea (Israel was already pagan). And it was more profitable for Gentile Jews to speak Arabic Aramaic than Jewish Hebrew.

                        Macedonians? laughing
                        Greek influence on Jews - philosophy, a couple of dozen borrowed from Hebrew words (like ochlusia - population, from the Greek ochlos), and the population of Israel by that time had long been driven away by the Assyrians, consisted of Jews, colonizers of the Greeks and small peoples)).
                        Aramaic is very close to Hebrew (Russian - Belarusian) and far from Arabic, (Russian - Polish), therefore, it was in use in this territory, like Russian in the CIS countries - the Macedonians are not in business here
                      7. Operator
                        Operator 29 August 2021 12: 23
                        0
                        Sanskrit:
                        three - Tré, tri - three (traya - trayah - three (male), trini - trini - three (Wed), tishra - tisrah - three (female)
                        trini - Trini - triple
                        trayas - trayas - three
                        trika - trika - threesome
                        tris - tris - three times
                        tritiya - Tritiya - third
                        trita - trita - third
                        Other numbers in Sanskrit:
                        http://www.evpatori.ru/cifry-vedicheskogo-sanskrita.html

                        The Romans borrowed Latin from the Etruscans, and the Etruscans from the Black Sea Aryans.
                        At the moment in the Latin language there are over a hundred words that coincide with the Slavic type "back", "moon", etc. The syntax in Latin (the only Western European) in terms of the formation of the plural of a noun using the letter "i / and" coincides with the Slavic languages ​​(dialects of Sanskrit).

                        You would at least have familiarized yourself with who the Arameans (Syrian Arabs) are, before writing about the alleged closeness of the Aramaic language with Hebrew and the remoteness from Arabic laughing
                      8. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 29 August 2021 12: 38
                        0
                        The Romans borrowed Latin from the Etruscans, and the Etruscans from the Black Sea Aryans.

                        Who are the Black Sea Aryans? laughing
                        At the moment in the Latin language there are over a hundred words that coincide with the Slavic type "back", "moon", etc. The syntax in Latin (the only Western European) in terms of the formation of the plural of a noun using the letter "i / and" coincides with the Slavic languages ​​(dialects of Sanskrit).

                        Rather, they were borrowed by the Slavs from the Romans than vice versa)). And without Sanskrit
                        You would at least have familiarized yourself with who the Arameans (Syrian Arabs) are, before writing about the alleged closeness of the Aramaic language with Hebrew and the remoteness from Arabic laughing

                        lol
                        I understand Aramaic)))
                      9. Operator
                        Operator 29 August 2021 13: 10
                        0
                        How the Aryans (native language - Sanskrit) or Slavs (native language - dialect Sanskrit) could borrow anything from the Romans, if the former never contacted the Romans (who appeared in the 8th century BC) until the Aryans left for Asia 4 thousands of years ago, and the latter first contacted the Romans (Byzantine Romans) only in the 5th century AD after the capture of the Byzantine provinces of Illyria (future Yugoslavia) and Thrace (future Bulgaria) by the Slavs, when did the Slavic language already take shape?

                        And I understand Latin - so what? laughing
                      10. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 29 August 2021 13: 46
                        0
                        As Aryans (mother tongue - Sanskrit) or Slavs (mother tongue - Sanskrit dialect)

                        Where are the Aryans and where are the Slavs? laughing
                        could borrow something from the Romans, if the first never contacted the Romans (who appeared in the 8th century BC) until the Aryans left for Asia 4 thousand years ago,

                        what Che?
                        and the latter first contacted the Romans (Byzantine Romans) only in the 5th century AD after the capture of the Byzantine provinces of Illyria (future Yugoslavia) and Thrace (future Bulgaria) by the Slavs, when the Slavic language had already taken shape?

                        Latin has long been the language of science - a kind of English today.
                        And I understand Latin - so what? laughing

                        examples:
                        The star in Hebrew is kohav. Aramaic - kakhba. Arabic is najma.
                        Sky - Hebrew Shamayim, Aramaic Shmaya, Arabic Smaa.
                        Kingdom - Malchut - Hebrew, Malchut Aramaic, Mamlek - Arabic.
                        Etc. hi
                      11. The comment was deleted.
                      12. The comment was deleted.
                      13. Operator
                        Operator 29 August 2021 15: 58
                        -1
                        Indians and Persians have Aryan R1a in minor key (15%), culture and language are hybrid, dominant haplogroups L and J2, respectively. And among the Poles, Great Russians, Little Russians and Belarusians, R1a is dominant (56%), the culture and language are Aryan.

                        Come on, slander the Jews - they are exactly one people (in language and culture), though biologically mestizo, but with whom it does not happen bully

                        Since my ancestors are in the male line of the Aryan (R1a), the culture and language are Aryan, the religion is Christian, it means that I am the most chosen by God (blood relative of Moses, Buddha and Mohammed).

                        PS With a high degree of probability, John the Baptist was also an ethnic Aryan in the male line, since his father was the priest Zacharias.
                      14. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 29 August 2021 16: 16
                        0
                        Indians and Persians have Aryan R1a in minor key (15%), culture and language are hybrid, dominant haplogroups L and J2, respectively. And among the Poles, Great Russians, Little Russians and Belarusians, R1a is dominant (56%), the culture and language are Aryan.

                        Gallogpuppas don't talk about anything - Russian culture is far from Indian, Tajik and other Persian
                        Since my ancestors are in the male line of the Aryan (R1a), the culture and language are Aryan, the religion is Christian, it means that I am the most chosen by God (blood relative of Moses, Buddha and Mohammed

                        laughing Buddha and Christianity, Raj Kapoor and Mironov, Islam, Judaism and Orthodoxy - how much do you have in common? fellow
                        PS With a high degree of probability, John the Baptist was also an ethnic Aryan in the male line, since his father was the priest Zacharias.

                        The same Arius, like you he was. None, that is, His mother was the cousin of the Virgin Mary.
                      15. Operator
                        Operator 29 August 2021 16: 43
                        -3
                        John the Baptist was ethnic Aryem, what is not clear?

                        Hindus (in the dominant Dravida) and Persians (in the dominant northern Semites) are not equal to the Slavs (in the dominant Aryan) - they have a hybrid culture / language, we have a native Aryan culture / dialect of Sanskrit.
                      16. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 29 August 2021 17: 15
                        0
                        John the Baptist was an ethnic Aryan, what is not clear?

                        laughing
                        It is clear that he was a Semitic, an ethnic Jew))
                        Hindus (in the dominant Dravida) and Persians (in the dominant northern Semites) are not equal to the Slavs (in the dominant Aryan) - they have a hybrid culture / language, we have a native Aryan culture / dialect of Sanskrit.

                        They have an Aryan original, you have a Slavic-European
                      17. Operator
                        Operator 29 August 2021 17: 51
                        -3
                        Black Dravidians and Semites think so bully

                        I remember that a certain mishling (haplogroup E1 of the Middle Eastern subclade) Adolf Schicklgruber also stuffed himself into "Aryans", but everything ended unsuccessfully in 1945.
                      18. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 29 August 2021 19: 55
                        0
                        Black Dravidians and Semites think so bully

                        And the vast majority of educated people laughing
                        I remember a certain mishling (haplogroup E1 of the Middle Eastern subclade) Adolf Schicklgruber

                        Schicklgruber and Mishlige, he is only among the alternatives - Hitler, Austrian Yes
                        also stuffed into "Aryans

                        And Klesov stuffs Russians there laughing
                        it all ended unsuccessfully in 1945

                        You yourself know everything fellow
                      19. Operator
                        Operator 29 August 2021 21: 23
                        -1
                        Educators with an inferiority complex.

                        Hitler is a mishlige in accordance with Hitler's and Halachic laws - his paternal grandfather was a Jew named Frankenberger. According to the results of testing 39 of Hitler's relatives, his haplogroup is defined as the Hamitic E1b1b1, which is part of the Jewish gene pool. So all questions are for your compatriots.
                        https://inosmi.ru/social/20190818/245652558.html

                        We are not "Aryans", we are Aryans.
                      20. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 29 August 2021 22: 36
                        0
                        Educators with an inferiority complex.

                        lol to invent for oneself an ancient origin, involvement in an ancient culture that is not interesting to anyone today and "ennoble" one's origin can only occur to very notorious people Yes
                        Hitler is a mishlige in accordance with Hitler's and Halachic laws - his paternal grandfather was a Jew by the name of Frankenberger

                        According to Hitler's, for example, a Mischliga of the second category, according to Halakha, he is not a Jew, since nationality is transmitted through the maternal line (clan - on the father wink )
                        Well, his grandfather is the same Jew as you are Aryan - that is, a purebred gentile - Austrian fellow
                        According to the results of testing 39 of Hitler's relatives, his haplogroup is defined as the Hamitic E1b1b1, which is part of the Jewish gene pool. So all questions are for your compatriots.
                        https://inosmi.ru/social/20190818/245652558.html
                        his cousin had a Semitic admixture - definitely a Jew laughing
                        We are not "Aryans", we are Aryans

                        You are not Aryans, you are Slavs))
                      21. Operator
                        Operator 29 August 2021 23: 05
                        -3
                        You are not Semites, but jew.
                      22. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 29 August 2021 23: 29
                        0
                        Jews or Jews are Semitic laughing And the Slavs do not treat the Aryans in any way - neither externally, nor linguistically, nor mentally. Yes
                      23. Operator
                        Operator 29 August 2021 23: 57
                        0
                        The Slavs are Europeans with 57% Aryan dominance, 250 million people and a lot of blood relatives among the rest of the Europeans, Indians, Iranians, etc.

                        Jews - small Asian mestizos in the form of a hodgepodge of four arithmetically equal ethnic groups,
                        Yes: Omeriga won't help you anymore - Afghanistan whispers bully
                      24. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 30 August 2021 00: 46
                        0
                        lol
                        Where is the Aryan dominant among the Slavs? )))
                        Jews - ethnically there are many more:
                        Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Lahlukh (Kurds who converted to Judaism), Babylonian (Iraqi), Georgian, Mountain, Bukharian, Musarvi, Greek, Ethiopian, two types of Indian, Chinese, Afghan, Tunisian (Carthaginian), etc.
                        Omeriga did not help with the largest territorial conquests of Israel, more precisely, she tried to help Jordan, and if it were not for the active assistance of the USSR to the Arabs, Israel would not have interested her from the word at all laughing
                        Now this is her investment, and a profitable one. And not only it - China, South Korea, the EU - everyone is buying and investing in Israel, they are investing and buying, they don’t bother with gvlogroups, they count money Yes
                      25. Operator
                        Operator 30 August 2021 01: 16
                        -1
                        All these Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Lahluhs (Kurds who converted to Judaism), Babylonian (Iraqi), Georgian, Mountain, Bukharian, Musarvi, Greek, Ethiopian, two types of Indian, Chinese, Afghani, Tunisian (Carthaginian), etc. - it is only 15 million people.
                        But this is not the main thing: the jews were and remain Asians - i.e. an order of magnitude lagging behind the Europeans in civilizational terms.

                        The achievements of individual Jews were realized only in the European environment. As soon as the dream of the Zionists came true and the overwhelming majority of Jews migrated from Europe to Asia, their level of civilizational development began to decline - the people of the East, however.

                        That is why the Judeo-Bandera cling to the Outskirts - the last inch of European land. We'll kick them out, we'll deal with the fifth column in Russia.

                        BLM to help you bully
                      26. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 30 August 2021 02: 13
                        +1
                        two types of Indian, Chinese, Afghan, Tunisian (Carthaginian), etc. - this is only 15 million people.

                        I think a million less laughing
                        But this is not the main thing: the jews were and remain Asians - i.e. an order of magnitude behind the Europeans in civilizational terms

                        Certainly
                        Backward Jews, Japanese, Singaporeans - how far are they from the social, economic and scientific development of the descendants of the ancient Aryans - the HDI speaks for itself feel
                        The achievements of individual Jews were realized only in the European environment. As soon as the dream of the Zionists came true and the overwhelming majority of Jews migrated from Europe to Asia, their level of civilizational development began to decline - the people of the East, however.

                        Yes, alas - the mid-Western European standard of living and scientific achievements, but what about it, or what is it in Sanskrit? laughing
                        That is why the Judeo-Bandera cling to the Outskirts - the last inch of European land. We'll kick them out, we'll deal with the fifth column in Russia.

                        Well, of course - why do they need all sorts of London-Zurich-Como - there is Ukraine fellow

                        BLM to help you bully

                        Thank you IRA to help you wassat
                      27. Operator
                        Operator 30 August 2021 15: 43
                        -3
                        In London, Zurich and Como (are there any Jews there at all?), The remaining jews can be counted on the fingers of one hand.
                        The largest diaspora of Jews (~ 6 million people) remained only in the United States, but BLM is already working on the issue.
                      28. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 30 August 2021 19: 28
                        +1
                        lol
                        London - over 150 thousand Jews
                        Zurich - 6500
                        About the same in Milan and Como
                        Well, if at least a quarter of the state Jews move to Israel, the country will only benefit from this, and significantly))
                      29. Operator
                        Operator 30 August 2021 19: 50
                        -1
                        Why a quarter - all polls.
                        The main thing is for BLM to understand that the slave trade was financed by the Jews.
                      30. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 30 August 2021 20: 22
                        +1
                        Like the total soldering of the Aryans laughing
                        If all 6 million move to Israel, it is difficult to imagine a greater benefit for the country good
                      31. Operator
                        Operator 30 August 2021 22: 12
                        -3
                        So that, therefore, with one Iranian blow bully
                      32. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 30 August 2021 22: 31
                        +1
                        Yeah, exactly one lol
    2. Edward Vashchenko
      27 August 2021 08: 45
      +6
      Vladislav,
      good morning,
      I'm afraid there is no pattern here, nomads "wander" across the steppe, the Slavs and Goths, like the Vandals and Gepids, etc., were not nomads, well, they lived in the north, they went to the warmth laughing
      Yours faithfully,
      hi
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 August 2021 09: 20
        +3
        Edward, you basically answered my question. The pattern takes place in the interest! As the jackal Tabaka said, “and we will go north” we read between the lines in order to avoid “red dogs”!
        Essentially a cognitive and interesting process, the study of the "domino principle", especially in the era of the great migrations of peoples!
        You have mammoths - then we are coming to you !!! The slogan of the first - an American who crossed the "strait shores" 12 years ago !!! hi
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          27 August 2021 09: 23
          +7
          You have mammoths - then we are coming to you !!! The slogan of the first - an American who crossed the "strait shores" 12 years ago !!!

          good
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 August 2021 10: 24
            +5
            Shore Strait, read as Bering Strait, Devil's - T9!
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 27 August 2021 10: 48
              +5
              Come on, swear, Vlad! We are already used to it. laughing
        2. mihaylov
          mihaylov 27 August 2021 10: 49
          +7
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          You have mammoths - then we are coming to you !!! The slogan of the first - an American who crossed the "strait shores" 12 years ago !!!

          Good joke!
          You can continue:
          "- You have possums - then we go to you !!"
          Christopher Columbus
          Или:
          "You have echidnas - then we will come to you!"
          Captain cook wassat
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 27 August 2021 11: 32
            +7
            Poor Neil Armstrong! crying laughing
            1. mihaylov
              mihaylov 27 August 2021 11: 34
              +4
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              Poor Neil Armstrong!

              Or maybe he knew something?
              Greetings Anton! hi
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 27 August 2021 13: 47
                +3
                Good day, Sergey! hi
          2. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 27 August 2021 12: 30
            +4
            Quote: Mihaylov

            "You have echidnas - then we will come to you!"
            Captain cook wassat

            You have cocaine and syphilis - we are coming to you!
            And uncle Vaserman, by the way, was to be born only after hundreds of years feel
            1. mihaylov
              mihaylov 27 August 2021 12: 36
              +6
              Quote: Krasnodar
              You have cocaine and syphilis - we are coming to you!

              I would say this:
              "We trade your cocaine for our syphilis" wassat
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 27 August 2021 13: 09
                +4
                Not fair. Both are initially enjoyed laughing
          3. Edward Vashchenko
            27 August 2021 15: 06
            +5
            You have elephants, then we go to you
            You have bears ...
            Sergey, welcome!
            hi
            1. mihaylov
              mihaylov 27 August 2021 15: 26
              +6
              Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
              You have elephants, then we go to you
              You have bears ...

              "On the road with nishtyaks ..." (nomad's song)
              Greetings Edward!
        3. Lynx2000
          Lynx2000 27 August 2021 12: 52
          +5
          Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka

          You have mammoths - then we are coming to you !!! The slogan of the first - an American who crossed the "strait shores" 12 years ago !!! hi

          lol "Scientists" believe that they nevertheless crossed over to Alaska along the dry isthmus, and came up with a name - "Berengia" (not to be confused with dog sled racing). Probably, the first settlers (the first generation) were not yet Americans, but our Siberians from the Far East.
          Although, archaeologists have the opinion that even before crossing the Berengia, the first Homo Sapiens had already appeared in America ...
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 August 2021 13: 30
            +5
            Quote: Lynx2000
            "Scientists" believe that they nevertheless moved to Alaska along the dry isthmus, they came up with a name - "Berengia" (

            Two vectors of the settlement of America by homo sapiens are recognized as scientific. The first by our "fellow countrymen" along the described isthmus, the second from the regions of western England or Ireland over the ice bridge during the Great Glaciation. Perhaps the process itself was repeated.
            But the first Native American was definitely our Siberian. In other matters, he went there not only for the "mammoth" but more of the failed ancestor of the horse. The bones of which accompany the campsites of the first Americans.
            So on the conscience of a person, not only mammoths, but also American horses.
            1. PhilipKDick
              PhilipKDick 27 August 2021 15: 28
              +3
              Hello. Regarding the 2 vectors of the settlement of America (from the regions of West England) ...
              I am just studying this topic. Do not tell me the sources where this version is being promoted?
              Thank you.
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 August 2021 20: 27
                +1
                Quote: PhilipKDick
                I am just studying this topic. Do not tell me the sources where this version is being promoted?
                Thank you.

                In short. On the eastern coast of America, flint spearheads were found with processing similar to finds from Western Europe. For almost a quarter of a century, this mystery remained unsolved. Only with the advent of genetic testing, scientists at the University of Massachusetts suggested that the genome of the Northern Indians contains an admixture of the blood of Ice Age Europeans. It was then that the version “the big man of the glacial bridge” appeared. In Russian-language literature I read about him at Burevoy's. There is a good scientific documentary Discovery on this topic.
                Hepotiza is bright and interesting. However, it does not refute the basic theory "Siberian".
          2. mihaylov
            mihaylov 27 August 2021 14: 23
            +3
            Quote: Lynx2000
            Although, archaeologists have the opinion that even before crossing the Berengia, the first Homo Sapiens had already appeared in America ...

            There is an opinion, but it has not happened yet, all versions have not been confirmed in the end. hi
            1. Lynx2000
              Lynx2000 27 August 2021 15: 15
              +5
              what Archaeologists always disagree with "academic (cameral) scientists". For example, in South America, the remains of a person were found whose burial dates back to a period earlier than the known places of human settlement from the northern part of North America ...
              Thor Heyerdahl tried to substantiate the hypothesis of not only resettlement, but also trade relations between Polynesia and America long before the main hypothesis of the settlement of America and the discovery by Columbus.
              1. mihaylov
                mihaylov 27 August 2021 15: 23
                +5
                Quote: Lynx2000
                For example, in South America, the remains of a person were found whose burial dates back to a period earlier than the known places of human settlement from the northern part of North America ...

                Attempts to move the "Clovis culture" from the first place have been made several times, but so far, in the end, with each of these attempts, something has turned out to be wrong. For example, in Brazil (apparently you mean this case), as a result of repeated research, it turned out that at the parking lot, which initially gave a sensational result, it seems 45 thousand years (I don’t remember exactly), the archaeological layers were mixed, which gave the wrong result.
                Perhaps sooner or later there will indeed be archaeological evidence of an earlier human presence in America, but so far no convincing evidence has been presented. hi
                1. Lynx2000
                  Lynx2000 27 August 2021 15: 30
                  +3
                  This is what the case had in mind. But, sometimes the word "bye", moreover, I do not understand how the official statement of confirmation of the fact of discovery by archaeologists in the academic scientific world protects the "dogmas of science" occurs. Although, there was more than enough material.
                  For example, an example of certification of the discovery of a find in Denisova Cave (my small homeland) of the extreme (or second phalanx) of a teenager and, if I am not mistaken, a tooth, which was a sensation (for some time not recognized) of the discovery of another subspecies of man, is indicative ...
    3. Catfish
      Catfish 27 August 2021 14: 28
      +5
      ... rolled over and over again from the east!


      Perhaps because in the West the people lived richer, and what was nearby had already been plundered?

      Vlad, hello and best wishes! hi I join your gratitude to the author. good
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 27 August 2021 14: 49
        +4
        Quote: Sea Cat
        ... rolled over and over again from the east!


        Perhaps because in the West the people lived richer, and what was nearby had already been plundered?

        Vlad, hello and best wishes! hi I join your gratitude to the author. good

        Greetings, Constantine! hi
        Well ... the Romans lived richer than the Spaniards and Gauls, but to the West Perly laughing
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 27 August 2021 14: 55
          +3
          Well ... the Romans lived richer than the Spaniards and Gauls, but to the West Perly


          Well, this is already out of greed. laughing
          As a result of this "feather" of the Romans to the West, the well-known proverb was born that "Greed ruined the frayer." (C) request

          Hi Albert! drinks
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 27 August 2021 20: 39
            +3
            Fraer was killed, in their case, by aliens from the East drinks
            "Scarlet East" (c)
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 27 August 2021 22: 00
              +3
              "The east is scarlet, and you are still far away" (c)

              In my opinion, from some movie with Raj Kapoor. "Mister 420"?
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 27 August 2021 23: 56
                +3
                No
                Alej East, the Sun has risen,
                Mao Zedong was born in China.
                He works for the happiness of the people,
                He is the star that saves the people.
                Chairman Mao loves the people,
                He is our leader.
                To build a new China,
                He leads us forward.
                The Communist Party is like the Sun:
                Brings light wherever it shines.
                Where the Communist Party comes
                There the people become free. fellow
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 28 August 2021 16: 38
                  +1
                  Contrary to Mao, you can’t trample where there is Kapoor! laughing
  4. Alexander Trebuntsev
    Alexander Trebuntsev 27 August 2021 08: 04
    +6
    "After the death of Genghis Khan, who died in a campaign against Xi Xia, his heir Ogedei decided to complete the conquest he had begun and personally set off against the remnants of Jin in 1231. The same Jebe was in front ..." Was Jebe still alive? He seems to have died after returning from the western campaign.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 27 August 2021 08: 32
      +5
      The last mention of Jebe in The Secret Legend is associated with this campaign. But that's all. For some unknown reason, the author decided not to take into account the opinion of Khrapachevsky.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 27 August 2021 13: 05
        +4
        For some unknown reason, the author decided not to take into account the opinion of Khrapachevsky.

        And not only Khrapachevsky.
        The opinion that the mention of Jebe in the Secret Legend of the Mongols is an anachronism was expressed long before Khrapachevsky by the French orientalists Pellio and Hembis.
        Histoire des campagnes de Gengis Khan: Cheng-wou tsʾin-tcheng lou, tr. Paul Pelliot and Louis Hambis, Leiden, 1951, pp. 154-156.
        Today this is the main version, including in Chinese sources.
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          27 August 2021 16: 23
          +5
          Dear Victor Nikolaevich,
          if you read Pellio and Hembis, then there is not quite about that.
          However, this does not negate the fact that, I confess, I wrote as in the Secret Legend.
          hi
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 27 August 2021 16: 34
            +3
            Yes, I'm not really insisting, I just voiced an alternative.
            1. Edward Vashchenko
              27 August 2021 16: 38
              +5
              I agree - this is an alternative, I, not on purpose, neglected it.
              Thanks for the link: read it!
              Yours faithfully,
              hi
    2. Edward Vashchenko
      27 August 2021 08: 42
      +7
      Alexander,
      good morning,
      Anton was already ahead of me, nevertheless, so in "The Secret Tale":
      Secret legend. Mongolian chronicle of 1240 titled Mongol-un niruca tobciyan, Moscow, 1941. P.192.
      Yours faithfully,
      hi
  5. ViacheslavS
    ViacheslavS 27 August 2021 09: 36
    +7
    In general, everything is as "usual", corruption, nepotism, separatism ruined the empire.
  6. mihaylov
    mihaylov 27 August 2021 10: 40
    +5
    Greetings Edward!
    An interesting point, of course, turns out: the Khitan, Jurchen, Tanguts, who themselves quite recently were formidable warriors, after a relatively short time interval, were unable to resist the Mongols, whose tactics and strategy, in fact, were perfectly familiar to them, since quite recently they themselves acted in the same key.
    At least at the beginning, the Mongols did not offer anything unusual that they would not know: a competent concentration of forces, capable commanders in their places, etc. hi ... Yes, many points have been improved, but nothing really fundamentally new, no "chyudo-weapons". All these nomadic methods of warfare have been known for centuries and even millennia, and of course they have been improved, but the main component of success is successful organization in oneself and complete disorganization of the enemy.
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 27 August 2021 11: 35
      +9
      Hello Sergey, hello colleagues. smile hi
      Quote: Mihaylov
      no "chyudo-weapons"

      There are some considerations about Mongolian wunder waffles. Their siege technique can be considered as such. For all his savagery, Genghis Khan managed to collect in his armies all the achievements of technical progress in this area, and put the capture of cities on stream.
      Usually, when the nomads attacked the sedentary peoples, the latter habitually sat outside the walls of the cities, while the devil knows what was going on outside, but this number did not pass with the Mongols - they snapped cities like nuts.
      By themselves, all sorts of different ballistas and trebuchets there were news in the XIII century. they were not for anyone, but the effectiveness with which all these developments were used by the Mongols, as for me, is so simply off scale.
      The name of the counterbalanced stone thrower (trebuchet, by and large) is funny in Mongolian - "hyhyhyipao". Isn't it a great name for "wonder weapon"? laughing
      1. mihaylov
        mihaylov 27 August 2021 11: 46
        +8
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        By themselves, all sorts of different ballistas and trebuchets there were news in the XIII century. they were not for anyone, but the effectiveness with which all these developments were used by the Mongols, as for me, is so simply off scale.

        Good afternoon Mikhail,
        I'm talking about this: in principle, nothing new, all this siege technique was generally well known, but it itself was brought to a certain perfection and the method of its use. That is, the secret of success is in the competent organization of the process. hi
        in Mongolian - "hyhyhypao"

        A wonderful name.
        This is how I see the scene:
        Mongols under the walls of the Russian city
        "- Russians give up, we have" hyhyhyipao ", now it's like ...... (fucking in the sense)!"
        " - Ouch!" wassat
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 27 August 2021 11: 55
          +5
          Here, after all, how to consider what a wunder waffle is - some kind of exclusively technical solution or an organizational one too.
          Here's a tank, for example. Is he a wonder weapon? By itself, hardly. And what about the German tank army of 1941? In my opinion, yes, it is quite drawn to such a definition.
          So it is here: the miracle weapon is not a specific ... pao, but the siege corps itself, in which these ... pao were on allowance in a place with other ballistae, arcballista, and hashar. smile
          1. mihaylov
            mihaylov 27 August 2021 12: 11
            +5
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            Here's a tank, for example.

            I, too, had the first association with tanks: it didn’t prevent the Germans, having very mediocre tanks at the beginning of the war, to win victories.
            So it is here: the miracle weapon is not a specific ... pao, but the siege corps itself, in which these ... pao were on allowance in a place with other ballistae, arcballista, and hashar.

            I completely agree: the siege corps itself is a "miracle weapon" (conditionally, of course) hi
      2. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 27 August 2021 12: 35
        +5
        Quote: Trilobite Master

        The name of the counterbalanced stone thrower (trebuchet, by and large) is funny in Mongolian - "hyhyhyipao". Isn't it a great name for "wonder weapon"? laughing

        Greetings, Michael! hi
        From the name of this miracle of the weapon, I was most embarrassed by PJSC - just like Sberbank, it will be said not in front of children negative
        Genghis Khan, as a representative of the bulk of nomadic peoples, was rational - he took all the professionals who could be useful to his tribe, and not necessarily in military affairs, to himself.
      3. ee2100
        ee2100 27 August 2021 13: 31
        +7
        There are 2 main types of traction trebuchet, which was used mainly as a means of defense.
        The dimensions of the lever are 10 m, the maximum range is 100 m. The weight of the projectile is not large.
        Counterbalanced trebuchet.
        The first use of these trebuchets was in 1268, the Mongols used two of them during the siege of the cities of Fancheng and Xiangyang. They were built by Persian engineers, Muslims. The Mongols called all Muslims hu y-hui, and for this trebuche they called them x ui-hui trebuchet.

        Mongols shell the fortress.

        The current sample (Denmark) weighs 6 tons, throws projectiles up to 300 m, it all depends on the weight of the projectile.
        I doubt that the Mongols were constantly dragging them along with them. And plus shells!
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 27 August 2021 13: 50
          +3
          Quote: ee2100
          The first use of these trebuchets was in 1268.

          Khrapachevsky gives evidence of the use of such weapons by the Mongols in 1219, if I am not mistaken, and asserts that in the twenties they were already used. He believes that the Mongols could have received counterweight stone throwers from the Uighurs - Muslims who had close contacts with Central Asia even before the start of the Mongol conquests. Considering that many Uyghurs joined the Mongols voluntarily, this hypothesis makes sense.
          Quote: ee2100
          I doubt that the Mongols were constantly dragging them along with them.

          They dragged engineers and the main units - complex metal parts. Collected already on site from local materials.
          Quote: ee2100
          And plus shells!

          They also did not take them with them - they came up with something from local materials. There is a case recorded in the sources when the city was shelled with shells cut from the roots of some large trees soaked in water for weight.
          The Mongols always knew where they were going on a hike - what natural conditions were there, what and how could be used for their own purposes, so they equipped themselves accordingly, learning everything in advance, starting with the weather and ending with minerals ...
          1. Edward Vashchenko
            27 August 2021 15: 15
            +4
            Good afternoon, Mikhail!
            sincerely welcome!
            I'll add a couple of thoughts to
            He believes that the Mongols could have received counterweight stone throwers from the Uighurs - Muslims who had close contacts with Central Asia even before the start of the Mongol conquests.

            The Uyghurs really joined on their own, but why they need stone throwers during this period is not at all clear.
            Moreover, they joined after the first invasions of Xi Xia and as a result, the Uyghurs depended on Xi Xia.
            They joined the Great Khan before the war with the Golden Khan, but in the first campaigns against Jin, the Mongols could not take cities yet, and only during the wars against Jin and Xia did they fill their hands or seized specialists.
            hi
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 27 August 2021 16: 04
              +3
              The presence of Uighurs in the Mongol army speaks only of the possibility of earlier contacts with Muslims. That is, to the question "where did the Mongols come from for stone throwers in the 20s, when they did not go to the west yet?" there is a hypothesis that deserves attention. smile
              Did the Uighurs have stone throwers - we do not know, it is likely that they did not, really, why did they need them? But they could know about them and tell Genghis Khan - too. And if he wanted, the latter could, through their mediation, already write for himself, for example, specialists from Khorezm ... It is quite a real picture, without much exaggeration.
              1. Edward Vashchenko
                27 August 2021 16: 29
                +3
                "And where did the Mongols come from in the 20s, when they did not go west yet?"

                So they took in Xi Xia, and the Jurchens even had cannons (I won't lie on the dates, I don't remember)
                In Song, all siege techniques, and even in Tang, developed at a high level, I may be mistaken, but large sieges in the XI-XII centuries. there are not many in Central Asia and adjacent lands, but in China siege after siege laughing laughing
                It is possible to argue over whose technique was more perfect, in China or in Central Asia, but the fact that
                "use what is at hand and do not look for something else", very relevant for the Middle Ages.
                Yours faithfully,
                hi
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 27 August 2021 16: 44
                  +2
                  Here the question is precisely about counterweight stone throwers, which were not in China - they used torsion ones. Torsion bars are weaker and hardly suitable for breaking down walls. How much strength can you develop by twisting leather straps? Hardly comparable to the counterweight force, which is limited only by the strength of the main structure.
                  But information that back in the 20s. Mongols have already pierced stone walls with stone throwers. I don't remember the name of the city now, but the meaning of the story is that the Mongols rested against its walls and had to call the stone throwers under the leadership of some Jia (hereinafter the name on "T", something similar to "cockroach" smile ), who brought down the wall and the city was taken.
                2. mihaylov
                  mihaylov 27 August 2021 16: 50
                  +2
                  Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                  In Song, all siege techniques, and in Tang, developed at a high level,

                  "Yes, I took Mudanjian!" wassat
          2. ee2100
            ee2100 27 August 2021 16: 04
            +5
            Traction trebuchets have been known for more than 4 thousand years and China is considered their homeland, while torsional or counterbalanced ones are believed to have been invented by the Arabs.
            They built the first 2 samples for the Mongols.

            It is known that the Chinese used traction trebuchets very massively, up to 300 in one battle. Often put on ships.
            And what the Mongols used in 1219, I hope, is not specified.
            It's like "vices" in Russian, but what exactly is HZ. They wrote mainly monks or people poorly versed in technology.
            Disassemble the trebuchet for parts !? I wonder what?
            We talked to you about shells. My opinion has not changed. The Chinese made clay, which unified many things. People were also shooting.
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 27 August 2021 16: 55
              +3
              Quote: ee2100
              China, and torsional or counterbalanced, it is believed, were invented by the Arabs.

              The Arabs came up with, just, with counterweights. Torsion bars have been used by the Chinese since time immemorial. But the counterweight ones are much more powerful and, as it seems, they are the only ones capable of breaking through walls.
              In any case, in the campaign against Russia (during the assault on Chernigov in 1240) there is already information about the Mongols throwing stones, which, it seems, "a dozen people could lift." Obviously, such a weight is beyond the power of a torsion-bar machine.
              The question of when the Mongols had counterweight trebuchets is debatable. The first direct evidence is the second half of the XNUMXth century, already under Ogedei. There are plenty of indirect ones, and even earlier than the Western campaign. But it does not specify what kind of stone throwers were used to break through the stone walls. If we assume that torsion bars, based on twisting leather belts, were capable of sending a projectile that could damage a stone wall, then yes - it is possible that they did without the "Arab" obscene "pao". smile But, to be honest, it is somehow not very hard to believe that such a unit could throw a projectile weighing several tens of kilograms over any significant distance.
              1. ee2100
                ee2100 27 August 2021 17: 24
                +4
                Michael! It's all a play with terms. The torsion mechanism pulled the counterweight device. This is clearly seen in the photo from Denmark.
                As for the chronicles, "a dozen people could have raised"! And do you believe these monks who wrote and copied from the 4th person?
                The question was in the design, which was not a secret.
                About the Rakovor battle. They immediately began to make trebuchets with counterweights, as all the historians claim. But no one understood that vices are the general name for a siege device.
                I have already written here 2 times that it has been proven imperially that to break through a 3 m thick wall it takes about 15 hits with a 60 kg projectile in one place!
                In the photo from Denmark, a car that made more than 6000 shots! "Accuracy", if this term is appropriate, depends on the mass of the projectile, its aerodynamics and averages 3 meters.
                You assume that you fired at everything that comes to hand, i.e. even without taking into account aerodynamics. What do you think they had integrity?
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 27 August 2021 18: 05
                  +3
                  Quote: ee2100
                  The torsion mechanism pulled the counterweight device.

                  We, apparently, have different understanding of the meaning of the word "torsion" in relation to this issue. For me, "torsion" means based on twisting some fibers, the Chinese used leather belts for this, if my memory serves me right. This twisting actually gave energy for throwing a projectile, which was placed on some kind of a large spoon. As a child, we built ships and supplied them with "rubber-torsion engines". smile
                  Pictured from Denmark is a typical counterweight trebuchet. The wheels, as I understand it, are used to lower the boom (raise the counterweight). Then the arrow is released, the counterweight falls and the belt loop at the end of the arrow throws a projectile like a sling. Such trebuchets were invented precisely in Persia and from there they came to the Mongols and to Europe.
                  As for the chronicles, then you will decide whether they are the source for you or not. The principle “I believe here - I don’t believe here”, and both are completely arbitrary in accordance with personal experience and “common sense”, which, as you know, everyone has their own, here, it seems to me, is inappropriate. And, in any case, if some chronicle news is questioned, this performance must be somehow substantiated, and not just swept aside, they say, the monks, what they understood ...
                  Quote: ee2100
                  it has been proven that to break through a wall 3 m thick, you need about 15 hits with a 60 kg projectile in one place

                  So they got there. The accuracy of the trebuchets was, of course, terrible. And, nevertheless, for several centuries they continued to be used, which means there was a lot about them and they could break through the walls, despite all the difficulties. Or do you, in principle, deny the usefulness of this kind of weapon, they say, historians have lied again? smile
                  Quote: ee2100
                  vices is the general name for a siege device.

                  But not just anyone, but the one that can be thrown by something heavy. Battering ram is not called a vice, like a siege tower or an assault ladder. I have never heard that the "vices" of 1268 were definitely identified with trebuchets, except perhaps for Zhukov. But Zhukov is not all historians. Vices are Russian medieval artillery. Most likely - yes, exactly trebuchets, but not only them.
                  1. ee2100
                    ee2100 27 August 2021 18: 51
                    +2
                    Michael! Because we are personally acquainted, then I cannot refer to you with certain terms and honestly, I don’t want to apply to anyone else.
                    But! You choose only moments convenient for you for criticism.
                    1. Chronicle, as a source, and not particularly. And the principle that you have voiced "here it is true, I do not believe here" is the principle of the historians.
                    About my attitude in general as "attitude with the use of personal life experience, common sense" you have already "carried out"!
                    What can I say, you are the defender of the history - the flag is in your hands!
                    Vices - read Dahl's definition.
                    "Accuracy" is a very conditional concept. No one disputes the effectiveness of trebuchets.
                    And the last, the opinion of Zhukov is the opinion of Zhukov!
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 27 August 2021 19: 21
                      0
                      Here you, comrades, hacked to death out of the blue! I hope it will not come to "smashing dishes and scratching the muzzle" ... I, as an organizer of communication in real life, will be sad.
                    2. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 27 August 2021 20: 00
                      +1
                      As for Zhukov, I agree. As a popularizer, he fulfills his task, as a historian ... Let's just say: some of his theses are more than controversial. smile
                      It's good that no one disputes the effectiveness of trebuchets. Although, again, I have heard the opinion that this is precisely the invention of historians and the arguments that you just cited were cited as proof - the complexity and cumbersomeness of the design, the impossibility of accurate guidance, the slow rate of fire, etc. That is why I asked you if you are an opponent of trebuchets in principle.
                      Dahl is an unconditional authority and his vocabulary is definitely worth reckoning with. However, no one is immune to mistakes. Dahl was not a specialist in ancient philology and understood everything as he understood it. The annals nowhere indicate that the vices were used as battering rams, but it is clearly indicated that they were used as stone throwers. Conclusion: vices could throw stones. Whether they could have done anything else is unknown.
                      I am not a "defender of history". For me, there is no concept of "official history" at all. There is history - science. There are irresponsible inventions of amateurs that do not even draw on hypotheses. I am always glad to new things in this science and am happy to study something new that catches my eye from this area. If this new thing changes my view of events, it gives me more joy than pain. smile
                      Personal experience and common sense are indeed extremely subjective concepts, therefore they cannot be used as the basis for any construction that claims to be scientific knowledge. That passage from the chronicle, about "twelve people" and the stone, by the way, is criticized quite harshly by source researchers. They dug up in some Greek annals an almost exact quotation of this passage and consider it a reference to an ancient text, which means, in their opinion, it has a different meaning hidden from us, understandable only to contemporaries, and cannot be understood literally. This is a scientific criticism. I accept and take into account such criticism. And further, criticizing certain passages from sources, real scientists always give precise and specific arguments, and they are the basis of their statements. Against this background, your argument about the monks who wrote and rewrote chronicles can serve only as a background, an addition to the main thesis, but not as an independent argument. Could the monks be wrong? They could. Or they could not be mistaken. In order to recognize our understanding of these words as completely erroneous, in my opinion, it is not enough to assume the possibility of an error in its spelling.
                      And by the way, you shouldn't be talking about monks. Monks were not born, they became, and sometimes after a rather stormy and eventful life. Many chronicle articles were clearly written by eyewitnesses or directly from their words. The first thing that comes to mind is "The Life of Alexander Nevsky", written twenty years after his death and clearly an eyewitness to many events or directly from the words of such eyewitnesses. Quite serious researchers believe that the author of this work lived and acted at the court of Alexander, witnessed many events described in the "Life", and in his old age he took monastic vows and took up literary activity.
                      Well, about criticism. I do not choose the moment, I criticize what seems to me to be wrong or complement what I think needs to be supplemented. And that's not all. In this case, you clearly spoke about the trebuchets,
                      Quote: ee2100
                      The first use of these trebuchets was in 1268.

                      I found it possible to state a different point of view on this question, nothing more.
                      1. ee2100
                        ee2100 28 August 2021 09: 47
                        +2
                        Good morning!
                        As always, we will remain in our opinion, and it is possible that we will continue this conversation during a face-to-face meeting. And let Anton not worry, we will not scratch. laughing
                        I will express my opinion on the "Life of Alexander Nevsky", which, as you say, "was written twenty years after his death"
                        This is a propaganda piece written during the beatification of Alexander Yaroslavovich, i.e. in the XNUMXth century.
                        And the last thing. About the annals. The main question is - for whom were the chronicles written? Who is the target audience?
                        hi
                        .
                      2. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 29 August 2021 09: 05
                        +2
                        Good morning to you, Alexander. I am not a supporter of turning any discussion into a sharp polemic, and in your case, for sure. smile
                        As for the "Life" - the date of its compilation is defined by linguists as the last quarter of the XIII century. Birch bark letters of Novgorod rule. smile
                        The chronicles were written for the ruling class, primarily for the princes. Their main applied value is the resolution of land and other disputes between them. So these are legal documents and they were extremely responsible for their drafting.
                      3. ee2100
                        ee2100 29 August 2021 10: 49
                        +1
                        Good morning!
                        Linguistic analysis is a very "delicate" matter, especially on such a topic as the Old Russian language.
                        About what princes have more "Lives" been written? It turns out that the person who wrote them was a seer !?
                        Does he predict that in 300 years Alexander Yaroslavovich will be canonized?
                        And why should he be canonized? 3 battles? Treaty with the Tatar-Mongols? Violent population census with torture, murder? Or was he martyred?
                        Ivan III wanted to have a saint in his family - so they chose Alexander. In reality, his father approached this place, but probably the leadership of the Russian Orthodox Church did not like something in his biography, perhaps Karpini was right.
                        For the hiding class, other documents were drawn up, including the so-called. "columns"
                        Chronicles were written for posterity, incl. and for you and me.
                        They are like guiding documents of the party, how one should relate to this or that historical moment.
                        Again, this is my personal opinion based on knowledge, personal experience and common sense. And only this is put into the basis of scientific knowledge, but they differ from the generally accepted ones, tk. the basis of generally accepted knowledge is exactly the same construction as mine, though much earlier and acceptance by the public. And this construction wanders from textbook to textbook.
                      4. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 29 August 2021 11: 43
                        +1
                        Linguistics is an exact science. The language is constantly changing, in ancient times they wrote exclusively as they said, therefore, the time of their compilation is determined quite accurately from the written texts. So, for example, the authenticity of "The Lay of Igor's Campaign" and the fictitiousness of the "Veles Book" have been proved with mathematical precision.
                        And the princes hardly thought about you and me. About children and grandchildren and their ownership rights - yes. The chronicles are, first of all, a legal document, they were referred to as precedents, they confirmed the rights to land, family relations, etc.
                        Generic lists are much later. "Leaving your affairs to posterity" was important from this point of view. The ancestors were purely pragmatists and everything that they did brought them concrete benefits, served a specific purpose that was clear to them. History, as such, they were hardly interested - there were questions and more relevant - property rights, for example.
                      5. ee2100
                        ee2100 29 August 2021 12: 30
                        -1
                        I read it, of course I do not agree! I will write a detailed answer later.
                      6. ee2100
                        ee2100 29 August 2021 13: 47
                        -1
                        You did not comment on my theses about the merits of Alexander Yaroslavovich to the Russian Orthodox Church and, as a chronicler, pleased that the prince would be condemned in 300 years.
                        I have not come across a single work where the link of the "life" to the XIII century was given with "mathematical precision".
                        Everywhere the text is parsed and opinions are expressed! The identity of the writer is being investigated.
                        Here it is very interesting, everyone agrees that he is a native of Western Russia, possibly the GVK a. And he "worked" most likely in the Suzdal monastery, where he arrived already quite mature as a person. The fact that he writes in the first person does not mean anything. Many literary works are written in this way. The characteristics that he gives to Alexander are very strange, they are all from Holy Scripture. One gets the impression that he has never seen him.
                        He also mentions the Battle of the Neva, which is very suspicious. Only in the NPL and in the life is there a mention of it, and experts write that the writer lived in the west, and then in Suzdal, i.e. he could know about it while living in Novgorod and the description of the battle in two sources is practically a tracing paper. The conclusion is the simplest. The writer used NPL for his work. The question of writing NPL is still open.
                        Many historians refer to the work of Villo Mansikka "Life of Alexander Nevsky. Analysis of the editorial board and text"
                        This is not a mathematical analysis! But very interesting. In his work, Mansikka asks the rhetorical question "What sources did the author of the Life use?" And he doesn't even try to answer it!
                        There were three main three branches of government, which competed with each other, as you mentioned - the nobility, the prince and the church, where the chronicles were created. The church very often sided with the princes. in fact, knowing is the main power.
                        And for this reason, the nobility is rarely mentioned in the annals, and everything positive is attributed to the prince.
                        It is extremely difficult to consider the annals as a legal document. And they were not written for the nobility.
                        There were various kinds of contracts, the 11th sent me a link to them, it is extremely interesting. There were also columns.
                        Chronicles are literary works based on historical facts.
            2. astra wild2
              astra wild2 27 August 2021 18: 34
              +1
              "people also shot" Badigin in one of the books has the following episode: the troops of the Lithuanian prince Vitovt besieged the castle of the Crusaders. The crusaders sent a messenger for help, and the Lithuanians intercepted him and shot the messenger's body into the crusader castle
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 27 August 2021 19: 37
                -1
                Badigin is still an author. Better read K. Tarasov.
                1. astra wild2
                  astra wild2 28 August 2021 05: 56
                  +1
                  Please indicate the titles of the books
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 28 August 2021 06: 07
                    0
                    "The Pursuit of Grunwald"
                    1. astra wild2
                      astra wild2 28 August 2021 06: 16
                      +1
                      Thank. I will see
        2. Alexander Trebuntsev
          Alexander Trebuntsev 27 August 2021 19: 37
          0
          Regarding the x ui-hui, I read somewhere that in some areas of eastern Turkestan the current Dungans were called such a word. When the Soviet government was strenuously inscribing nationalities that were of no interest to anyone in tsarist Russia, the word x ui-hui seemed for some reason not very decent to the authorities and introduced the name Dungans, which was used by some nationalities in relation to this ethnos.
          1. astra wild2
            astra wild2 28 August 2021 06: 14
            +1
            * not very decent "it very much resembles a certain organ.
            At that time it was tight with national cadres on the outskirts and they were sent there from the center. So someone decided that: "the secretary of the rebellious district committee" is more euphonious
      4. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 27 August 2021 13: 45
        +2
        but this issue did not work with the Mongols - they snapped cities like nuts.
        And the enlightened Europeans, not long before that, trampled under Akka for two years.
        Michael! hi
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 27 August 2021 14: 15
          +5
          My respect, Anton. hi
          The effectiveness of the Mongolian siege corps was mainly in the variety of techniques that it used - shooting down walls, digging, flooding, siege towers, examples, rams ... hashara, which should also be regarded as a kind of "device" or "weapon".
          In Europe, by the way, they also knew how to build and besiege (in Russia, for example, they did not know how, especially the last one) cities, but of course, there was no such efficiency of the siege as the Mongols in Europe achieved.
          For the Mongols, the quality of the European fortification of that time was a complete surprise. Actually, the Mongol invasion of Europe was stopped not by the armies (the Mongols dealt with them quickly and dryly), but the castles. It's one thing to uncover your ... pjs near Kiev or Urgench, here the game is clearly worth the candle, but to storm every castle (stone, by the way), which in Europe has already been stuck everywhere and everywhere with a garrison of half a hundred people, at the risk of getting as a trophy only the owner's pimpled daughter, the heels of pigs and a keg of sour ale ... Very troublesome.
          1. mihaylov
            mihaylov 27 August 2021 14: 42
            +5
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            at the risk of getting as a trophy only the owner's pimply daughter, heels of pigs and a barrel of sour ale ... Very troublesome.

            I think that for approximately this reason they turned back: "poor thing here with you, albeit neatly" hi
          2. Edward Vashchenko
            27 August 2021 15: 26
            +5
            ... at the risk of getting only the owner's pimpled daughter, heels of pigs and a barrel of sour ale as a trophy ... Very troublesome.

            Michael, bravo! As usual, not in the eyebrow, but in the eye.
        2. mihaylov
          mihaylov 27 August 2021 14: 27
          +4
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          And the enlightened Europeans, not long before that, trampled under Akka for two years.

          By the way, here is a good example: having approximately the same means of warfare, and probably the Europeans even the best, some - with half a sin, while others - "like nuts." hi
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 27 August 2021 14: 37
            +3
            By the way, I find it symbolic that the last, in their onslaught to the west, the Mongols instigated the Magyars, also former nomads, who had nightmares in Eastern Europe 3 centuries earlier.
      5. Catfish
        Catfish 27 August 2021 14: 36
        +4
        Good afternoon, Michael! smile
        "hyhyhyipao"

        Killed on the spot, what can I say! wassat good
        Now it is clear where it came from and nowadays commonplace: "Now, guys, we are like them ....... on .....!"
        And the size of this "huilao" somehow inspired respect.
      6. Catfish
        Catfish 27 August 2021 15: 40
        +4
        There are some considerations about Mongolian wunder waffles.


        There are different opinions on this, but, basically, of course - "pragres shirako shagnul, yes". laughing


        (the name had to be covered up, alas) request
        1. astra wild2
          astra wild2 27 August 2021 20: 24
          0
          Colleague Konstantin, if I'm not mistaken, you have posted a photomontage.
          At that time, they did not yet know such missiles.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 27 August 2021 21: 56
            0
            I made it, and then I posted it. Both the machine tool and the rocket are real. wink
    2. Edward Vashchenko
      27 August 2021 15: 24
      +4
      Sergei welcome!
      Everyone is as you write, but I tried to carry the thought through a number of these articles that an important factor, besides "introduction to civilization," was the factor of further expansion, Such is the stage of development, if one can fight further, then society remains militant, if it is not possible, then it does not save.
      I also wrote that both the Tanguts (the weakest link in the "three" empires in China) and the Khitan and the Jurdzheni did not have the strength to wage the war further, as if running into natural boundaries: there was constant parity with the Iron Empire with Song and Xia, then at Golden with Southern Sun and Xia.
      I dare to suggest that if it were not for Chingiz's campaign to the west, then perhaps he also got stuck in China, maybe creating a country a la Liao, maybe not. But as soon as the expansionary chapels ended, the Mongol Empire ended in China 150 years after the first invasion.

      hi
      1. mihaylov
        mihaylov 27 August 2021 15: 35
        +4
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        But, as soon as the expansion aisles ended, the Mongol Empire ended.

        Here, please, you can bring a quite convincing parallel with the Roman Empire, even though they are not nomads. hi
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          27 August 2021 15: 40
          +4
          Here, please, you can bring a quite convincing parallel with the Roman Empire, even though they are not nomads.

          And possibly with the USA good good
          I agree!
          1. mihaylov
            mihaylov 27 August 2021 16: 57
            +4
            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            And maybe with the USA good good
            I agree!

            Well, here we will not run so far. Let's watch ... hi
  7. astra wild2
    astra wild2 27 August 2021 18: 19
    +1
    Colleagues, Edward, good evening.
    "in impressive appearance" in this case, 430 kg resident of Pakistan, Khan Baba will be the commander-in-chief? Or are there other parameters?
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      27 August 2021 22: 01
      0
      Good evening,
      probably yes, but he chose another job laughing
      hi
  8. astra wild2
    astra wild2 27 August 2021 18: 48
    +1
    "killed several people from the older generations of Genghis Khan" in short, they did everything so that Genghis Khan would take revenge on them
  9. Mihalych
    Mihalych 3 October 2021 06: 55
    0
    And did the Mongol comrades carry these wundewafli x ... pao with them or did they do it from scratch? The thing is extremely heavy. I can directly imagine the engineering battalion. There should be forges there, and a coal should be taken from somewhere along with the ore. Or did they carry spare parts in the wagon train? Plus the tree is appropriate.