Military Review

IL-112V: who is really to blame for the tragedy?

208
IL-112V: who is really to blame for the tragedy?
Photo: Investigative Committee of the Russian Federation

Putin expressed condolences to the relatives, payments will be made and so on. A criminal case has been opened, don’t understand who, but we’ll start with it.

The age-old Russian problem: who is to blame? The second part is somewhat more complicated, but we will also return to it a little later.

So, who is to blame for the tragedy that claimed the lives of the best test crew of the Ilyushin Design Bureau?

Today, the investigation puts forward the following versions for consideration: engine malfunction, crew error and multiple system failures.

I simply refuse to talk about the "mistake" of the crew, it was the best crew of the "Ila", these were the people who were able to tear this winged misunderstanding off the ground. Aces of the highest category. And we just have to remember their names.


Photo: PJSC "VASO"

Crew Commander, Chief Pilot "Ila", Honored Test Pilot of the Russian Federation, Hero of the Russian Federation Nikolai Kuimov. It was he who first tore off the Il-112V from the ground in March 2019.

Co-pilot, Honored Test Pilot of the Russian Federation Dmitry Komarov.

First class flight engineer Nikolai Khludeev. Also with Il-1V from the beginning of testing.

Yes, everyone has the right to make mistakes. I simply have no right to talk about mistakes addressed to the lost professionals and I will not do it.

But I think that you can talk about the mistakes of other people, thanks to which we have lost three excellent specialists.

Here are the facts:

The first flight of the Il-112V took place on March 30, 2019. After that, the plane was hidden in the hangar for two years for revision. Information has passed that the aircraft does not meet the technical specifications and has many defects. At "Ilyushin" they said that deviations from the technical specification are commonplace and the shortcomings will be eliminated.

The shortcomings were eliminated for two whole years. All this time, the Il-112V did not fly.

The second flight took place on the same day, March 30, but 2021. The flight lasted 30 minutes, according to the report of the crew commander, the flight task was completed. The tests continued.

On August 13, 2021, the Il-112V flew from Voronezh to Zhukovsky near Moscow to participate in the VII International Military-Technical Forum "Army-2021".

The question arises: who ordered to send the car, which made a little more than 10 flights, to show-off flights? The plane that existed in a single copy and was not even transferred to the military?

By the way, the Il-112V was listed as belonging in the register of experimental machines of the Ministry of Industry and Trade of Russia.

What did this plane forget in Zhukovsky?

The eternal legacy of the USSR. How many lives were ruined in that country for the sake of "In commemoration of the next congress of the CPSU" or "For the next anniversary of the Great October Revolution", it is difficult to count, but it is possible.

Everything is the same here. It was very necessary that the unsuccessful (and this is a fact) and raw machine show something there at the ARMY-2021 forum. Apparently, there is absolutely nothing to boast about, they decided to throw an airplane into battle, which did not really fly.

But it was very necessary to show the world another "success". Not "Poseidon" with "Petrel" to drag, right?

As a result, they lost three wonderful people completely mediocre. Specialists in their field. Masters. Who can replace them, I do not know, I know one thing: had it not been for this criminal haste for the sake of showing off on the forum, perhaps everything would have happened differently.

At the same time, oddly enough it sounds, the "newest" Il-112V for 20 years of development is already somewhat outdated. The main complaints are about weight and engines, which are frankly weak for an aircraft of this class.

And this is not a secret at all, the former general designer of "IL" Nikolay Talikov criticized TV7-117 engines with might and main.

TV7-117 is a copied continuation of the Ukrainian TV3-117 produced by Motor Sich. But very rarely the copy was better than the original. This happened with TV7-117.

In April 2019, Talikov reported that the first flight of the Il-112V was accompanied by an automatic failure. If the left engine worked in the specified range, then the right one switched to hydromechanics and worked in a slightly lower speed mode.

Talikov is no longer the chief designer, but the right engine caught fire.

By the way, according to the statement of the chief designer of the UEC (United Engine Corporation) Stanislav Konashkov, the TV7-117ST-01 turboprop engines are still not completed testing and certification process. During the MAKS-2021 air show, Konashkov said that a huge amount of work is being done in the form of bench tests of the engine, but this is not at all like the operation of the engine directly in the aircraft.

What's the bottom line? As a result, the aircraft that had not been brought to flight condition and the engine that had not been tested ended up in the ARMII-2021 flight program. As part of the only prototype of the Il-112V, to which there were claims long before its first flight.

Probably, it was very necessary to interest potential buyers ...

Today, opinions in the comments of many media outlets are divided. There are people who believe that everything is fine. This is the usual routine work of testers, and there is nothing to argue here. The plane is needed by the army, therefore it must be tested at any cost, brought to condition and so on.

"We were told - we need height, and do not spare cartridges ..."

It is a pity that those who make such statements and write such comments will never sit at the controls of an airplane falling to the ground.

It is a pity that those who made the decision to show off on the forum will never be punished for their actions.

Today, there are two more Il-112Vs on the stocks of the Voronezh enterprise VASO. The Ministry of Defense says that testing of the aircraft will continue when these prototypes are completed.

It is clear that the army needs a transport plane to replace the outdated Ukrainian Anov. It's clear. This does not cause anything other than understanding the situation and hoping that the problems will be resolved over time.

But the testing and fine-tuning of aircraft should be dealt with exclusively by specialists. And only then, perhaps, when the specialists have done their job of fine-tuning the aircraft, then "effective managers" can think about how to show this aircraft to someone in order to fill their pockets.

And in no case is it the other way around.

In the meantime, we have another shame and another tragedy.

Bottom line: who is to blame? Those who sent a completely unprepared for flight car with under-tested engines on demonstration flights are to blame.

What to do: to exclude the slightest possibility of "effective managers" to influence the testing program of new technology in this way.

Interestingly, our Minister of Defense will be able to pull this?
Author:
208 comments
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  1. The comment was deleted.
    1. Stas157
      Stas157 20 August 2021 05: 39
      +63
      The plane, which had flight restrictions, did not learn to fly, was sent to fly. To the exhibition. But he did not reach her.

      What happened? Our sitter would have answered as usual: "He fell."

      But not everything is so simple. The ridiculous tragedy of Russian naval pilots in the mountains of Turkey asks all the same questions. Who sent naval pilots to the mountains instead of extinguishing the burning Russian plains?

      Who's guilty? There will be no real answers to these two tragedies that happened at one time. Because this is the ugly face of our power.
      1. Andrei Nikolaevich
        Andrei Nikolaevich 20 August 2021 08: 58
        +27
        The article is excellent. About Talikov ...
        I watched his interview about the new IL-114. Journalism turned around so that Talikov pushed into the microphone a speech in the spirit: "by the 27th of the CPSU ride, the labor collective will fulfill the task of the party and the government." But Talikov behaved well and threw this girl off the tail over and over again.
        We got used to window dressing, vigorous presentation and our eternal "maybe" .....
        1. Stirbjorn
          Stirbjorn 20 August 2021 09: 08
          +12
          Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich
          But Talikov behaved well and threw this girl off the tail over and over again.
          We got used to window dressing, vigorous presentation and our eternal "maybe" .....

          But at the same time, it was under Talikov that the Il-112 was designed, manufactured and launched on the first flight, with an overload of several tons. This is where the window dressing is - or were we hoping that the Ministry of Defense would not notice it ?!
          1. Andrei Nikolaevich
            Andrei Nikolaevich 20 August 2021 09: 29
            +7
            We cannot know the details. Personally, I don't know for sure. Therefore, I will not argue.
            1. Stirbjorn
              Stirbjorn 20 August 2021 12: 13
              +5
              Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich
              We cannot know the details. Personally, I don't know for sure. Therefore, I will not argue.

              what I said are well-known facts, confirmed by Talikov himself hi
          2. dauria
            dauria 20 August 2021 13: 37
            +15
            , it was under Talikov that the Il-112 was designed, manufactured and launched on the first flight, with an overload of several tons. This is where the show is - or were we hoping that the Ministry of Defense would not notice it ?!


            This Ministry of Defense set a condition to transport "armored cars". Hence the oversized fuselage, and extra tons for engines that are not suitable for this .. Talikov can only be blamed for one thing. Instead of the phrase "Let's go to xers ... Or a narrow fuselage, or make engines for 3 thousand horses." How to say this in our "vertical of power", where the phrase "What do you please, sir," is taught by any official?
            They would have eaten the whole business. They would put another obedient one.
            1. Stirbjorn
              Stirbjorn 20 August 2021 14: 27
              +5
              Quote: dauria
              They would have eaten the whole business. They would put another obedient one.

              So they ate it, in the end - as they found out about the overload. Just a clear conscience and no need to blame everything on "young designers" hi
              1. bodzu
                bodzu 21 August 2021 06: 42
                +6
                At the expense of the young, they work on the old groundwork, I myself can not offer anything good, since there is no continuity, in the nineties the best left, who remained who knew how to sit.
        2. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 20 August 2021 11: 40
          +28
          Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich
          The article is excellent.

          Only a few statements presented as fact are not facts.
          TV7-117 is a copied continuation of the Ukrainian TV3-117 produced by Motor Sich. But very rarely the copy was better than the original. This happened with TV7-117.
          The engines of the TV3-117 line (and there are a lot of modifications) were developed in 1965-1972 at the V. Ya. Klimov Design Bureau (Leningrad) under the leadership of S. P. Izotov and S. V. Lyunevich. Produced in series since 1972 at ZPOM Motorostroitel, now PJSC Motor Sich, Zaporozhye, Ukraine.
          That is, now the production of an engine developed in Russia has been transferred from Ukraine to Russia, and the term "copy of the Ukrainian" is no way around here ..
          1. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 20 August 2021 23: 01
            +14
            Quote: Bad_gr
            That is, now the production of an engine developed in Russia has been transferred from Ukraine to Russia, and the term "copy of the Ukrainian" is no way around here ..

            That's not necessary .. There is no doubt that what ours developed, but it was 50 years ago .. Technical processes, equipment, personnel - there is nothing now! We rebuild and combine everything from scratch. Vaughn Il-76 was produced only in the Russian Federation and Uzbekistan, so we have not been able to restore production for 12 years! It is really difficult and expensive to launch high-tech from scratch. And after our "reformers" our entire industry is like a desert .. No turbines, no engines, no personnel (!) Not a damn thing ..
            1. Bad_gr
              Bad_gr 20 August 2021 23: 21
              +2
              Quote: Saxahorse
              That's not necessary .. There is no doubt that what ours developed, but it was 50 years ago .. Technical processes, equipment, personnel - there is nothing now! We rebuild and combine everything from scratch.
              Read about what you say is not https://www.klimov.ru... They lie, I suppose?
              TV3-117 engines are produced on a line built from scratch, the release of this engine is just being mastered and, I am sure, will be brought to mind. In Zaporozhye, these engines have been produced for decades, so everything has been worked out.
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Vaughn Il-76 was produced only in the Russian Federation and Uzbekistan, so we have not been able to restore production for 12 years! ....
              What kind of restoration of production are you talking about? Are you aware that all the documentation for the IL-76 was completely digitized by our specialists, and now, what is being developed can be immediately submitted to the machines for production, bypassing paper media? Therefore, all the equipment for the production of aircraft has nothing to do with the old machines and the aircraft are now not built as before, but in separate blocks, and then docked together. And the new IL-76, although it looks like the old one, but it even has different wings, I am already silent about the engines and the cockpit. The fact that according to his passport he can transport 60 tons, and not 40, as before, does not mean anything?
              1. Saxahorse
                Saxahorse 21 August 2021 19: 34
                +13
                Quote: Bad_gr
                What kind of restoration of production are you talking about? You are aware that all the documentation on the IL-76 was completely digitized by our specialists, and now, ..

                Do you know that the state defense order for 38 Il-76s failed miserably and only four vehicles were assembled in eight (!) Years? Now, in fact, they are launching the order anew, and again having invested a lot of money in technological lines, they are again trying to restore mass production ..!? That is why today's jingoistic patriots infuriate that, having crowed with enthusiasm once, they consider the problem already solved and immediately forget about it! And then there is still work, work and work!
                1. Maxim G
                  Maxim G 21 August 2021 19: 59
                  +2
                  Three points:
                  1. Il-112V had one flight sample.
                  2. Its engines are helicopter engines.
                  3. Spanish and Italian counterparts have been flying for decades.
                  Both have been in operation for more than 15 years ...

                  Tolboyev did not let him go to the air show ...
                2. belly
                  belly 22 August 2021 12: 48
                  +1
                  I will join my colleague Sokhahorsu. About Il. The fact that now "60, and then 40" is very alarming. 30% growth on the old construction can be provided by technologies. Presumably. But it's extremely difficult.
        3. Machito
          Machito 20 August 2021 11: 41
          +21
          Roman asked the right question: Who is to blame for the ditching of experienced testers and a damp plane? But he did not give an answer: which of the defective managers gave the order to send the plane on its last journey. The country should know its heroes by name. And hold them accountable. Managers will find someone to blame. And so, as always, complete irresponsibility by the hands of the drivers.
          Eternal memory to pilots.
          1. Vladimir65
            Vladimir65 20 August 2021 17: 21
            +3
            The son of the chief space leader Rogozin is involved in this plane. I saw his interview, where he boasted that he was involved in aviation as a plant manager.
          2. bodzu
            bodzu 21 August 2021 06: 44
            +1
            Who is to blame - Vekselberg (Faberge eggs) and others.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Alekseev
        Alekseev 21 August 2021 13: 13
        0
        It is good to pour out righteous anger on the "real face" of our government without knowing the details and in general, knowing little about the aviation theaters, the methodology and the course of their tests, having information only from the media and rumors.
        It is immediately clear who is to blame and what to do! The designers are stupefied, the officials are drones, the government is not good. It is necessary, they say, good, only where to get them is not reported. request
        And under the previous authorities, there were no disasters during the tests?
        Yes, to the fullest, hundreds of courageous professionals died when testing the current legendary cars. Moreover, it is not always the fault of technology.
        Another thing is interesting here. Of course, there could be technical and organizational flaws, but could not any ...... put something, not twist, etc. Moreover, before the exhibition of military equipment
        After all, ill-wishers and this project, and, in general, the restoration of Russian aviation is a dime a dozen. Starting from Banderdogs and ISIS members, and ending with dissatisfied potential competitors, and, simply, harmful psychopaths. Is the control and protection of such important projects sufficient?
        1. vka
          vka 22 August 2021 14: 04
          -4
          here up to half of the comments of the trolls from Khokhlostan --- "everything is badly guarded" the jammed record they pay money for it !!!
      4. vka
        vka 22 August 2021 14: 10
        -4
        YES YES it is Putin's fault tore the engine with his teeth !!!
    2. Mar.Tirah
      Mar.Tirah 20 August 2021 06: 25
      +10
      Quote: srelock
      Skomorokhov, as always ... just to hyip on the topic that has turned up.

      What can you say about Talboyev? Is he hypanul too?
      1. Serg65
        Serg65 20 August 2021 07: 00
        +11
        Quote: Mar. Tira
        What can you say about Talboyev?

        And what would Tolboyev say if the plane crashed during a test flight? Well, I'm just wondering? And yes ... what's the difference where the plane fell?
        1. Bashkirkhan
          Bashkirkhan 20 August 2021 07: 38
          +9
          Quote: Serg65
          would Tolboyev say if the plane crashed during a test flight?

          This tovarisch recently very often expresses his crazy opinions in the media. Tolboyev would have better told how he became the honorary director of a vegetable warehouse in Biryulyovo, because of which the Internal Troops were brought in there.
          1. Serg65
            Serg65 20 August 2021 07: 41
            +4
            In old age, many consider themselves Confucius! Yes, and you want extra attention to your person ...
            1. mmaxx
              mmaxx 20 August 2021 14: 35
              +9
              Unlike the balabols, Tolboev is a top-class tester. And I don't remember him making crap.
              1. Serg65
                Serg65 20 August 2021 14: 43
                0
                Quote: mmaxx
                And I don't remember him making crap.

                It depends on who likes what crap!
              2. Uncle Vanya Susanin
                Uncle Vanya Susanin 20 August 2021 14: 46
                0
                And I don't remember him making crap.

                About SuperJet still fences!
              3. Tsoy
                Tsoy 20 August 2021 21: 40
                +1
                Unlike the balabols, Tolboev is a top-class tester. And I don't remember him making crap.


                Gorodil. He said that the superjet engines are in the wrong place. The earth is scraped, you see. He has many merits, but this does not make him the ultimate truth.
                1. mmaxx
                  mmaxx 21 August 2021 07: 02
                  +3
                  In general, the Superjet's engines are actually low-positioned. Therefore, only civilized airports are shown to him.
      2. Sergey Paliy
        Sergey Paliy 24 August 2021 12: 50
        +1
        You have a strange reaction - once you wrote an article, it means "hypanul" ?!
        You probably don't understand the difference between "write a comment",
        what trolls usually do, and "write an article" what authors do,
        who put a lot of knowledge and effort to prepare it.
        Here, I also want to publish here an article about the Il-112V. Explain
        what kind of "hype" I will catch here, except for someone's malicious comments.
    3. Sergey028
      Sergey028 20 August 2021 09: 53
      0
      And what should Roman be ashamed of? I didn't see a drop of hype here.
  2. andrewkor
    andrewkor 20 August 2021 04: 41
    +10
    IL-114 from TAPOiCH with these engines flew normally for Russia. But, for itself, Uzbekistan ordered an Il-114-100 from Pratt-Whitney with a twice as large resource !! By the way, Havo Yullari (the airline) has already written off these planes.
    1. boris
      boris 20 August 2021 18: 41
      +2
      I will correct my fellow countryman. The airline did not write off these planes, but took them off
      from operation. They are not the same thing. The freshest of them flew only
      6 years. It's not age for an airplane. The reasons for the withdrawal are not at all technical.
  3. Andrey1903
    Andrey1903 20 August 2021 04: 45
    +7
    We now have extras at the top, the main thing is to fulfill the plan, and in what capacity they are no longer interested in it. And this applies not only to aircraft, but also to pl and nk.
    1. Mikhail Ishin
      Mikhail Ishin 20 August 2021 06: 16
      +2
      Right ... Only more + PR fans ..
      1. lis-ik
        lis-ik 20 August 2021 06: 29
        +1
        Quote: Mikhail Ishin
        Right ... Only more + PR fans ..

        At someone else's expense.
  4. Jacket in stock
    Jacket in stock 20 August 2021 05: 06
    +3
    exclude the slightest possibility of "effective managers" to influence the testing program of new technology

    Ha..?
    Where and when did this happen?
    And about "make first, then sell" also does not happen.
    Everybody always starts to sell a non-existent aircraft.
    1. parusnik
      parusnik 20 August 2021 06: 09
      +11
      Everybody always starts to sell a non-existent aircraft.
      New fighter Chess from the same category? He hasn't even done a run yet.
      1. Jacket in stock
        Jacket in stock 20 August 2021 06: 13
        -3
        Quote: parusnik
        New fighter Chess from the same category.?

        Yes, and the Shahimat fighter.
        And also the F35 fighter, and all sorts of civilian Boeing aircraft.
      2. vka
        vka 22 August 2021 14: 08
        0
        so everyone lives, you have to pull out your fangs, otherwise you will endlessly have under the flag of freedom and democracy !!!
    2. atos_kin
      atos_kin 20 August 2021 07: 39
      +2
      The most "(e) effective manager" is in the Kremlin, while "managers with (e) effects" are spreading across the country.
    3. Andrei Nikolaevich
      Andrei Nikolaevich 20 August 2021 09: 07
      +20
      The jacket is in stock, the rabble that is now called "effective managers" has always been.
      Previously, they were called "Komsomol and party workers." I still remember one such greyhound. I came as a young summer. There was a situation when it was impossible to "accelerate, deepen". And he told me, "the party demands." I threw a hole punch into him ... He did not demand anything more from me. Recently I found out that this one is in the regional EdRe ". When they all take a break, these opportunists ?!
      1. Captain45
        Captain45 20 August 2021 10: 53
        +14
        Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich
        Recently I learned that this one is in the regional EdRe ". When they all have a rest, these opportunists ?!

        - Comrade privateer, when will they give us food?
        "Never, son. It's an army!" (c) "DMB"
        They will never take a break, as long as a person exists, there are also his shortcomings - anger, greed, cowardice, incompetence, opportunism, etc., etc. And no one is involved in raising a decent person, except for parents, and even then not all of them.
  5. avia12005
    avia12005 20 August 2021 05: 25
    +24
    There is no management system for the aviation industry in the Russian Federation. And what we have is in the hands of chronic non-professionals like Serdyukov. While the "golden calf" is reigning, such disasters, unfortunately, are inevitable.
  6. The comment was deleted.
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  8. Sahalinets
    Sahalinets 20 August 2021 05: 48
    +9
    Frankly, it is not clear why 112 engines are considered weak. It is enough to look at the performance characteristics of his classmates. There the load of the total mass of the car per hp. higher. Or is it about the fact that the engines do not even come close to delivering the declared power?
    1. Stas157
      Stas157 20 August 2021 06: 13
      +8
      Quote: Sahalinets
      It is enough to look at the performance characteristics of his classmatein. There the load of the total mass of the car per hp. higher.

      Since you've watched the performance characteristics of your classmates, such a question. IL-112 in terms of carrying capacity can at least be compared with someone? At least with some old man? After all, he only raised himself in fact. And even flying on one engine was not able to demonstrate normally.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. lelik613
          lelik613 20 August 2021 09: 15
          +6
          No Obsolete, Obsolete.
        2. Uncle Vanya Susanin
          Uncle Vanya Susanin 20 August 2021 14: 50
          -5
          Oh, so Pu Union was destroyed !?
        3. 9lvariag
          9lvariag 20 August 2021 20: 23
          +1
          Quote: Leader of the Redskins
          instead of the outdated Ukrainian "Anov".
          Instead of the SOVIET "Anov".
          "Thanks to" the "skillful" policy of the overseer, Ahn became an overseas firm.

          Uncle, you do not project your conjectures and wishlist on everyone. What does the GDP, the first Maidan in 2004 have to do with it? The strategy for joining NATO was signed by Kuchma when Putin was still working in St. Petersburg. And it was Ukraine that carried out unlicensed repairs of MiG-29 / Su-27 and Il, helicopters in the 2000s.
          We write raving and hype on this. The leaders of the redheads are in the field.
          1. The leader of the Redskins
            The leader of the Redskins 20 August 2021 21: 55
            -4
            Tribe!
            You, for a start, learn to be cultured and address strangers to YOU ​​...
            I have been to Ukraine with all the presidents and I remember very well how Yusch Ryaboy pulled the country into NATO, and the people firmly said NO.
            And you, like a blinkered person spent seven years in the basement, stayed there.
            1. bar
              bar 21 August 2021 10: 10
              0
              Quote: Leader of the Redskins
              I remember very well how Yusch Ryaboy pulled the country into NATO, and the people firmly said NO.

              Isn't it funny yourself, uncle? laughing
              1. The leader of the Redskins
                The leader of the Redskins 21 August 2021 11: 03
                -4
                I rarely laugh, but when I want to. And, more often, from the clowns who ask
                "Isn't it funny yourself, uncle?"
                Are there arguments or just a bunch of puddles?
            2. 9lvariag
              9lvariag 21 August 2021 21: 08
              +3
              Quote: Leader of the Redskins
              Tribe!
              You, for a start, learn to be cultured and address strangers to YOU ​​...
              I have been to Ukraine with all the presidents and I remember very well how Yusch Ryaboy pulled the country into NATO, and the people firmly said NO.
              And you, like a blinkered person spent seven years in the basement, stayed there.

              Leader of the Red-Faces, you should be more careful with yours and with your tongue too. You, personally, have been there occasionally, and I lived there! And it's not for you to scratch with your tongue about something that you did not particularly touch. And that didn't really concern you!
              And to blame the current leadership of the Russian Federation for what the eternally drunk EBN did and that it (the leadership of the Russian Federation) could only influence indirectly! No, it was necessary to seize Zaporozhye and hold it with our own troops until Motorsich and Antonov's factories were dismantled. Or conduct a military operation with the capture of Cueva, where is Gastomel ?! Completely off to a cuckoo?
              1. The leader of the Redskins
                The leader of the Redskins 21 August 2021 21: 57
                -3
                And I lived there. So what? Gives me the right to be rude? Or talk nonsense? Why are you a bunch of Zaporozhye, and Kiev, and Gostomel. You, couch invaders, are a dime a dozen on the Internet! Tear off the fifth point and do something useful! And then just cry ...
                1. 9lvariag
                  9lvariag 22 August 2021 20: 37
                  +2
                  I myself can tell you that, the political officer is retired, don't talk nonsense yourself. What is the side of the GDP to the Ukrainian company Antonov. Or is it a veiled vyser about "there would be no Crimea, would be with Anami" ?.
                  1. The leader of the Redskins
                    The leader of the Redskins 22 August 2021 20: 58
                    -5
                    Did you rub the political literacy or what? Then everything is clear with you ...
                    Crimea is so ... Chain link. The very anchor that began to pull us down, thanks to which even our relatives began to turn away from us, as from the plague. Not about mine - here often people like you start crying that their former friends and relatives do not consider it adequate.
      2. Sahalinets
        Sahalinets 20 August 2021 08: 39
        +11
        Yes, that's the question - its performance characteristics correspond to a real car or are they just design figures, but the reality is different?
        In general, tin. What is the degree of degradation of our design school if they could not even cope with such a simple task as a light transport?
      3. ailcat
        ailcat 20 August 2021 13: 37
        -1
        Yes. In terms of carrying capacity, it can be compared with the technical specification of the military.
        And given that, judging by some details, when designing, they took into account reality (and not stupidly did it according to the technical specification), for some reason it seems to me that by the time it is launched into a series, the g / p will increase to the world average.
    2. dauria
      dauria 20 August 2021 13: 45
      +8
      It is enough to look at the performance characteristics of his classmates.

      He has no classmates. Those with the same engines have a narrow (and therefore light) fuselage. And the "Spartan" that the Hummer can carry has engines one and a half times more powerful. And he ended up with practically no orders. The idea of ​​transporting the "Tiger" destroyed the Il-112 in the bud.
      1. MBRSS
        MBRSS 20 August 2021 23: 33
        +1
        Those with the same engines have a narrow (and therefore light) fuselage.

        and increasing the wing area will not help the cause by increasing the lift? In appearance, the wings are disproportionately narrow and short ((
        1. dauria
          dauria 20 August 2021 23: 49
          +1
          and increasing the wing area will not help the cause by increasing the lift?

          Yes, it is enough for the eyes. And the landing speed is normal and cruising.
          But there is already a bit shortage of fuel. Well, or don't report the cargo. And in general, this is such a narrow balance, the golden mean. Slightly pulled the blanket to one side - bare heels. It seems to fly, it seems to be the norm. And no one needs it, because competitors found the middle better. Sometimes even the region of operation plays a role. Give someone further, someone high-altitude airfields. Here is such a loser plane and came out. You can build for the army, but for a hillock or a private trader is already turning up his nose. They would have driven just a copy of the An-26, and it would have paid off.
          How would it be more precise? As with a six-seater passenger car - it eats more, and can drive six, but no one needs it.
          1. MBRSS
            MBRSS 21 August 2021 00: 13
            0
            Well, to hell with him, that there will be no export, somewhere there was a figure that the need for their videoconferencing pieces 200.
            So, if you expand the wing, the profile will increase accordingly. You can just take more fuel, the lifting force will increase due to the area and thick profile. The mileage may also decrease. The speed will drop, and to hell with it. This is my purely speculative reasoning, looking at the appearance of the car.
            1. dauria
              dauria 21 August 2021 00: 57
              0
              This is my purely speculative reasoning,


              Do not be offended ... laughing I suddenly thought that they drew the plane in the same "speculative" way. There is a school, besides the school, you need experience. Successful, unsuccessful, any - absolutely necessary. Figures of the previous designs in my head. Understanding what the design will cost when changing numbers. Even without accurate calculations (this will be done later), but offhand. Not only the general, but everyone from the very beginning must imagine who, where and how will make what they draw. This is a whole group of hardened bison, among which a few young animals crawl with their mouths open. Crawls and learns. In order to poke another young man in 15 years "Buddy, you can lay a cable route, but not worth it. Better like this."
        2. Sergey Paliy
          Sergey Paliy 24 August 2021 17: 06
          0
          Improvement of individual (single) parameters may not lead to
          to improve the final result. After all, everything is connected there - the square
          wing, its thickness and length, etc. for each structural element.
          It is necessary to initially design the aircraft so that
          even a slight improvement in its individual characteristics
          led to the synergy of all changes. All this must be done immediately and thoroughly
          calculate.
          You also need to take into account in advance that foreign buyers may
          be your requirements and wishes. Therefore, any technique is necessary
          start designing taking into account its export potential.
  9. Dilettante grandfather
    Dilettante grandfather 20 August 2021 05: 53
    +19
    A transport plane is required. But not at this price. Not at the cost of the crews' lives. In general, I get the impression that we do not produce fundamentally new technology from scratch. Everything that is now being developed is based on Soviet drawings. I would like to ask, where are the Russian designers? What did they create, fundamentally new, after the collapse of the USSR?
    1. Jacket in stock
      Jacket in stock 20 August 2021 06: 21
      +26
      Quote: Grandfather is an amateur
      Everything that is now being developed is based on Soviet drawings.

      So what?
      Look "Hercules" in the states for how many years fly.
      Quote: Grandfather is an amateur
      and where are the Russian designers?

      And why should they take it? What if a waiter in a pub gets more than an experienced engineer?
      1. Seamaster
        Seamaster 21 August 2021 00: 04
        +1
        And in Soviet times, a waiter had much more than an experienced engineer. So what? What kind of planes were created!
      2. Dilettante grandfather
        Dilettante grandfather 23 August 2021 18: 23
        0
        Hercules fly, but they are designed and manufactured in the USA. And in our country, excuse me, the country is no longer the USSR. In the USSR, equipment was developed and built, without any references to sanctions. An ekranoplan, for example. Civilian hydrofoils, "Comets", "Rockets", "Meteora". The V-2 tank diesel engine, for a second, was also developed by Soviet designers, and its direct descendants are still working properly. The question is different - where are the purely Russian developments, and not the "creatively revised" backlog of Soviet designers?
        1. Jacket in stock
          Jacket in stock 24 August 2021 04: 58
          0
          Quote: Grandfather is an amateur
          The question is different - where are purely Russian developments, and not the "creatively revised" backlog of Soviet designers?

          But why?
          What's wrong with the Soviet backlog?
          1. Dilettante grandfather
            Dilettante grandfather 24 August 2021 19: 02
            0
            I'm not saying that Soviet developments were bad - they were just good. I mean that I do not see such developments in the Russian Federation. What, even comparable to an ekranoplan, was created from scratch in Russia? Nothing.
    2. Wedmak
      Wedmak 20 August 2021 06: 37
      -5
      In general, I get the impression that we do not produce fundamentally new technology from scratch.

      First, they are wrong. Secondly, indicate at least some country producing (or at least a prototype under construction) a fundamentally new technique? For example, a nuclear space tug? Small, including floating nuclear power plants? Unique ATVs for the server? Fast breeder nuclear reactors operating in a common network? Working out a closed nuclear cycle?
      And if we talk about the creation of something: in the west, new planes, cars, ships, etc. are created by the efforts of several countries, but we are forced to do everything ourselves, taking in the west only what is not yet under sanctions. And then with the danger of flying, as was the case with the MS-21 wing.
      1. atalef
        atalef 20 August 2021 07: 07
        -1
        Quote: Wedmak
        Secondly, indicate at least some country producing (or at least a prototype under construction) a fundamentally new technique?

        Are you seriously ?
        in the world it means that no one creates anything at all
        Quote: Wedmak
        Unique ATVs for the server?

        I especially liked it.
        Some kind of kindergarten.
        For sure, no one in the world creates pickled mushrooms according to the unique recipe of my former neighbor, but this does not mean that no one pickles mushrooms at all
        Quote: Wedmak
        And if we talk about the creation of something: in the west, new planes, cars, ships, etc. created by the efforts of several countries, we have to do everything ourselves

        Are you preparing for the elections?
        1. Wedmak
          Wedmak 20 August 2021 07: 10
          -6
          Are you seriously ?

          Absolutely serious. True, I didn't ask you, but what's the difference .. A list of fundamentally new equipment in the studio, please.
          I especially liked it.

          I'm glad for you, but I never saw the same example from the west.
          Are you preparing for the elections?

          What does the election have to do with it?
          1. atalef
            atalef 20 August 2021 07: 17
            0
            Quote: Wedmak
            Absolutely serious. True, I didn't ask you, but what's the difference .. A list of fundamentally new techniques in the studio, please.

            look at Musk's rockets (at least) and compare with yours -
            Quote: Wedmak
            Unique all-terrain vehicles for the north?

            of course, nothing stood next to the all-terrain vehicles.
            I'm talking about something that has already been created.

            Quote: Wedmak
            I'm glad for you, but I never saw the same example from the west.

            collider - well, for a start
            Quote: Wedmak
            What does the election have to do with it?

            Change agitation.
            1. Aviator_
              Aviator_ 20 August 2021 08: 43
              +16
              collider - well, for a start

              If you are talking about a large hadron one (which is at CERN), then this is an international project, and there is also a smaller one - ours in Serpukhov at 76 GeV.
              1. atalef
                atalef 20 August 2021 09: 42
                -11
                Quote: Aviator_
                If you are talking about a large hadron (which is at CERN), then this is an international project

                And of course the west has nothing to do with it belay


                Quote: Aviator_
                and there is also a smaller one - ours in Serpukhov at 76 GeV.

                it wasn't even close
            2. Per se.
              Per se. 20 August 2021 09: 19
              +18
              Quote: atalef
              collider - well, for a start
              If for a start, then for the Large Hadron Collider, at the G.I. Budker (Novosibirsk) developed, ensured the production and delivery to CERN of a batch of unique dipole magnets. These are four thousand tons of high-tech products. This is an international project, like the ISS, which would not have taken place without Russia.
              1. atalef
                atalef 20 August 2021 10: 29
                -12
                Quote: Per se.
                If for a start, then for the Large Hadron Collider, at the G.I. Budker (Novosibirsk) developed, ensured the production and delivery to CERN of a batch of unique dipole magnets. It's four thousand tons

                and that now, apart from these magnets, there is nothing in the collider and it was designed in Russia?

                Quote: Per se.
                This is an international project, like the ISS, which would not have taken place without Russia at all.

                it would not have happened without the states. The states paid for this whole picnic, and they would have built it themselves.
                Toklko don't start telling me fairy tales - one already balabolil about trampolines.
            3. Wedmak
              Wedmak 20 August 2021 10: 15
              +10
              Musk rockets (at least)

              It took place 60 years ago. Only Musk does everything with modern technology. Nothing fundamentally new he doesn’t.
              nothing stood next to the all-terrain vehicles.

              And what, you just need a nanoultramegasuper technique?
              collider

              An international project, our scientists have invested there oh, how many. Starting from theory, ending with high-tech glands.
              Change agitation.

              I ask you not to be rude, we did not drink together ...
              1. atalef
                atalef 20 August 2021 10: 35
                -17
                Quote: Wedmak
                It took place 60 years ago. Only Musk does everything with modern technology. He has nothing fundamentally new.

                Well, yes, the ion engine is fundamentally new, is the Yu spacecraft to which the nuclear reactor is attached - is it fundamentally new?
                Northern all-terrain vehicles - this is generally cool - for the first time in the world?
                Did you create any floating power plants of the type?
                Or do you think that Plucking NPP is fundamentally different from
                http://korabley.net/news/plavuchie_ehlektrostancii_karadeniz_powership/2017-12-11-1875

                so there are over 80 of them in the world
                Quote: Wedmak
                And what, you just need a nanoultramegasuper technique?

                well, this is your statement
                Quote: Wedmak
                Secondly, indicate at least some countriesy, producing (or at least a prototype under construction) a fundamentally new technique? For example, a nuclear space tug? Small, including floating nuclear power plants? Unique ATVs for the server?


                Quote: Wedmak
                An international project, our scientists have invested there oh, how many.

                How do you know how much?
                By the way, the entire nuclear program of the USSR is an 80% stolen Manhattan project.
                1. Wedmak
                  Wedmak 20 August 2021 10: 45
                  +3
                  spacecraft to which a nuclear reactor is attached

                  There are no ion engines, of course, but a nuclear tug of this class - yes, new. No one even came close to doing this. Nuclear weapons were on board the satellites, but only as a generator of electricity. For TEM, it is more than a generator.
                  Plucking nuclear power plant is fundamentally different

                  Well, actually yes. Converted from ordinary ships, running on fuel oil or gas. The key difference between ours is that it is atomic.
                  well, this is your statement

                  No, you got into the conversation.
                  How do you know how much?
                  By the way, the entire nuclear program of the USSR is an 80% stolen Manhattan project.

                  I read smart books and I do not sit on YouTube at all on the Internet.
                  The entire nuclear program of the USSR took only a small part from the Manhattan project. If only because the first peaceful nuclear reactor was built here. In addition, at some point, scientists from the United States and the USSR began to share information. So don't talk about 80% here ...
                  1. atalef
                    atalef 20 August 2021 10: 56
                    -10
                    Quote: Wedmak
                    There are no ion engines, of course, but a nuclear tug of this class - yes, new.

                    A distinctive feature of the project from previous spacecraft with nuclear reactors on board is megawatt class energy sourcea[

                    there are already such people, they are just putting in a more powerful reactor.
                    That's all
                    What's fundamentally new?
                    that is, if I put an engine from Merina on a Zhiguli, will it be a FIRSTLY new product?
                    Quote: Wedmak
                    Well, actually yes. Converted from ordinary ships, running on fuel oil or gas. The key difference between ours is that it is atomic.

                    So, a nuclear power plant is no different from a thermal power plant in principle. It's just that gas or fuel oil heats water in one, and a nuclear reactor is in the second.
                    The only difference is that floating gas-fired TPPs can enter all ports of the world and nuclear power plants - only in the north of Russia.
                    And of course floating thermal power plants are much more powerful than floating nuclear power plants.
                    Quote: Wedmak
                    The entire nuclear program of the USSR from the Manhattan project took only a small part

                    why did you decide? And I read the opposite
                    Quote: Wedmak
                    If only because the first peaceful nuclear reactor was built here.

                    And how is the peaceful (in principle) different from the military?
                    How, say, a nuclear reactor of a submarine (in principle) differs from a nuclear reactor of a nuclear power plant?
                    ROEKT
                    Reactor design for the world's first nuclear power plant
                    Thermal diagram of the world's first nuclear power plant

                    It was deemed appropriate to start with the creation of a reactor for a ship power plant. In justifying the design of this reactor and for "a fundamental confirmation ... of the practical possibility of converting the heat of nuclear reactions of nuclear installations into mechanical and electrical energy", it was decided to build in Obninsk, on the territory of Laboratory "B", a nuclear power plant with three reactor installations, including the AM installation, which became the reactor of the First NPP.

                    strange and what the hell did my father ask a submariner to train in Obninsk? Probably in order to admire a peaceful nuclear power plant
                    Quote: Wedmak
                    ... In addition, at some point, scientists from the United States and the USSR began to share information.

                    On nuclear developments? belay
                    You read this in Murzilka?
                    1. Wedmak
                      Wedmak 20 August 2021 11: 19
                      +3
                      I don’t understand you. I just wrote that we are producing something, including a fundamentally new one. Ok .. everything seems to be clear. You got in and began to prove that in the West, too, everything is new and fundamentally, and not very much, and in general, everything is already in the series.
                      OK, let's say in series, newest, etc. How does this relate to the latest developments in the Russian Federation? To those who do not exist in the West, which means they are fundamentally new. But I have not yet cited the example of the nuclear icebreaker fleet, which does not exist in the west at all. And, accordingly, the construction of new icebreakers. Although not fundamentally new., But the most powerful in the world.
                      Do you really want to trample the Russian Federation in the mud by any means, just to think that in your beloved West everything is the best and the latest?
                      1. atalef
                        atalef 20 August 2021 11: 42
                        -7
                        Quote: Wedmak
                        I don’t understand you.

                        try
                        Quote: Wedmak
                        I just wrote that we are producing something, including a fundamentally new one.

                        no, you wrote that nowhere in the world except Russia is nothing fundamentally new.
                        Quote: Wedmak
                        Ok .. everything seems to be clear. You got in and began to prove that everything in the West is also new and principled,

                        no . I wrote that fundamentally new things are being produced in the West.
                        Quote: Wedmak
                        and in general everything is already in the series.

                        of course
                        Quote: Wedmak
                        How does this relate to the latest developments in the Russian Federation?

                        only that. what is it in the series (except that 0 continues to be developed - and in Russia nothing fundamentally new is mass-produced, and the bulk of what you wrote is either not fundamentally new or generally exists only in Wishlist
                        Quote: Wedmak
                        To those who do not exist in the West, which means they are fundamentally new.

                        Once again, I remind you of your post
                        Quote: Wedmak
                        ... Secondly, indicate at least some country producing (or at least a prototype under construction) a fundamentally new technique?

                        I pointed out to you
                        Quote: Wedmak
                        But I have not yet cited the example of a nuclear icebreaker fleet, which in the west does not exist at all.

                        and what is fundamentally new in this? And why do they need it?
                        Quote: Wedmak
                        And, accordingly, the construction of new icebreakers. Although not fundamentally new., But the most powerful in the world.

                        The Papuans have the most accurate and most powerful wind pipes in the world equipped with curare poison - what am I talking about?
                        it is not worth calling the most powerful something that exists only in one country and does not experience at least competition.
                        Here you can compare the most powerful missiles in the world, the most powerful aircraft, etc.
                        And why compare what only you and others, in general, do not really need
                        Quote: Wedmak
                        Do you really want to trample the Russian Federation in the mud by any means?

                        no one tramples on and achievements can only be when they are in fact - I am not in anything confirmed area, like

                        Quote: Wedmak
                        Secondly, indicate at least some country producing (or at least a prototype under construction) a fundamentally new technique?

                        Quote: Wedmak
                        what is the best and latest in the beloved west?

                        Well, when you bring something that is better in Russia than its counterpart in the West, I will jointly applaud you.
                      2. Wedmak
                        Wedmak 20 August 2021 11: 49
                        +4
                        And why compare what only you and others, in general, do not really need

                        I see ... a very strong argument. You can't use anything against.
                        I will not argue further. About nothing.
                      3. atalef
                        atalef 20 August 2021 12: 00
                        -8
                        Quote: Wedmak
                        I see ... a very strong argument.

                        of course .
                        you can only compare with anlags or with what you have developed, but others did not succeed.
                        What can you say about this?

                        Is it the largest and best in the world 7 Or is America just the only country that has it?
                        I lean - that they are just the only ones
                        But this is the largest

                        and the most powerful in the world - shopping mall. there is someone to compare

                        Quote: Wedmak
                        I will not argue further. About nothing.

                        And rightly so - leave the slogans until the elections.
              2. Reklastik
                Reklastik 20 August 2021 18: 25
                0
                He has nothing fundamentally new.
                Well, what do you mean by PRINCIPALLY NEW, say, in the same technique? Generalized diagram of the technical system: energy source -> transmission -> working body - what has PRINCIPALLY changed and since when? Or Newton's laws and physical constants have become different?
            4. 9lvariag
              9lvariag 20 August 2021 20: 35
              -2
              Quote: atalef
              Quote: Wedmak
              Absolutely serious. True, I didn't ask you, but what's the difference .. A list of fundamentally new techniques in the studio, please.

              look at Musk's rockets (at least) and compare with yours -
              Quote: Wedmak
              Unique all-terrain vehicles for the north?

              of course, nothing stood next to the all-terrain vehicles.
              I'm talking about something that has already been created.

              Quote: Wedmak
              I'm glad for you, but I never saw the same example from the west.
              1
              collider - well, for a start
              Quote: Wedmak
              What does the election have to do with it?

              Change agitation.

              1. Oh, these hump-nosed and light-faced, so to promote their lands. Titles in Murlosoft and Mac OS fonts, did not try to fap. What is not a post, it is simply madrigal to one of the greatest speculators and cheats in the world.
              2. Well, yes, an all-terrain vehicle, there is no hype and they are not needed in the national economy. I recognize the typuses that decommissioned SKSh PU from BAZ, sawed into metal and sold engineering vehicles wherever they could instead of firefighters and the Ministry of Emergency Situations.
              3.Collider what? Well, besides the fact that this collider gobbled up a lot of money and resources, and the so-called. There has not been a unified field theory, and it will not be for another hundred years! For that there will be another vyser: what British scientists are necessary and wise. Thank you for the attention.
          2. Seamaster
            Seamaster 21 August 2021 00: 06
            0
            Gauss rifle, Poseidon.
      2. Dilettante grandfather
        Dilettante grandfather 23 August 2021 18: 25
        +1
        I asked a question a little higher, but I will repeat. In the USSR, a lot of things were created from scratch. WIG craft, hydrofoil boats ... What exactly was created from scratch in the Russian Federation?
    3. 2112vda
      2112vda 20 August 2021 08: 50
      +5
      Where are the constructors? So they dispersed them in the dashing 90s! The continuity of generations among designers was destroyed, mentoring was forgotten. It takes twenty years to create a normal design bureau in the motor industry. Some factories were "optimized", others were simply liquidated. I worked in this system and know how the factories were destroyed. The Ministry of Aviation Industry was "optimized" into a department in the Ministry of Industry and Trade. The head of the Ministry of Industry and Trade, a graduated sociologist, director of CIAM is the same. In the country, the loss of control, it will be more fun further, unless, of course, they take their heads. It takes time and experienced professional leadership from specialists in their industry, not marketers, sociologists, and other effective managers, to restore the damaged one.
  10. parusnik
    parusnik 20 August 2021 06: 06
    0
    TV7-117 is a copied continuation of the Ukrainian TV3-117 produced by Motor Sich.
    Import Substitution?
    1. Genry
      Genry 20 August 2021 09: 41
      +3
      Quote: parusnik
      copied continuation of the Ukrainian TV3-117 produced by Motor Sich.

      You're prying!
      TV3-117 is the development of KB Klimov, which was transferred to production at Motorostroitel (renamed Motor Sich). And the quality of the branch of turboprop engines was disgusting - therefore, Pratts were installed on the Il-114-100.
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 20 August 2021 17: 33
        +1
        Well, it's great that Klimovsky, by the way, I have a question mark there, denoting doubt, not a statement, but you probably did not notice it, but for the explanation, thanks, I will know.
  11. Wedmak
    Wedmak 20 August 2021 06: 26
    +13
    I wonder why everyone is clinging to sending the plane to the forum? Yes, it’s probably a bit early, but what would have changed? The plane flew from Voronezh to Zhukovsky normally and crashed during a 10-minute flight. IL-114 flies on the same engine, no problems are visible. Maybe you should include logic and at least until the decision of the state commission to investigate the disaster not to wring your hands - "everything is lost"?
    What if the plane crashed in Voronezh in the same way? With the same fire? Who would they cling to then?
    1. common man
      common man 20 August 2021 07: 10
      +8
      Quote: Wedmak
      What if the plane crashed in Voronezh in the same way? With the same fire? Who would they cling to then?

      I completely agree. If the engine caught fire, it would have caught fire in Voronezh in the same way. And, most likely, with the same result. It is necessary to look for why the engine caught fire and why it led to a catastrophic loss of control.
    2. Stirbjorn
      Stirbjorn 20 August 2021 08: 19
      -5
      Quote: Wedmak
      What if the plane crashed in Voronezh in the same way? With the same fire? Who would they cling to then?

      In general, I don’t understand how you can cling to this topic if quite recently the Supreme himself declared
      Tests of the Il-112V light transport aircraft are nearing completion, two aircraft will be delivered by the end of 2021. This was announced on May 27 by Russian President Vladimir Putin at a meeting with the leadership of the Ministry of Defense and representatives of the military-industrial complex (MIC).

      "The state tests of the Il-112V light" transport aircraft "are nearing completion, the delivery of two such aircraft is planned for the current year," the head of state said.
      So the raw airplane, etc., somehow does not dock with such statements at the very top.
  12. Serg65
    Serg65 20 August 2021 06: 57
    +6
    who is guilty? Those who sent a completely unprepared for flight car with under-tested engines on demonstration flights are to blame.

    I wonder if this accident happened during a test flight in the sky over Voronezh, would it be a routine situation or a huge loss for effective managers? What do you think, Roman?
  13. Nikolay R-PM
    Nikolay R-PM 20 August 2021 07: 03
    +19
    "... TV7-117 is a copied continuation of the Ukrainian TV3-117 produced by Motor Sich. But very rarely the copy was better than the original. So it happened with TV7-117 ..."
    maybe the author had in mind tv3-117vma-sbm1 for an-140? here, moreover, you can trace the participation of the motor Sichi, but TV7 even in the days of the Union began to be developed in another higher power class. What kind of copying of a modification of an engine of a smaller dimension are we talking about?
    I understand that the engine was burning and, probably, it became the cause of the tragedy, but why would such a factual error be driven into the material about this sad event for the industry and the country? For the sake of hype, but this is not even a hype, but vulture on the death of experienced specialists. If the goal was to once again point out the viciousness of effective management, then it's understandable
  14. Ros 56
    Ros 56 20 August 2021 07: 23
    +3
    Who, apart from Roman, could have written such a thing? Directly the voice of the prosecutor. Such people probably sat in threes in the 30s and 40s.
    1. Locksmith
      Locksmith 20 August 2021 07: 56
      +6
      Now you read the article and from the first words it is clear - if "everything is gone" - this is Roman, if through the word spetsjargon it is clear who, and so on, not a military review, but a club of interests ...
  15. Pavel73
    Pavel73 20 August 2021 07: 48
    +14
    TV3-117 is NOT a Ukrainian engine. That is, in Ukraine it was only mass-produced on Motor Sich. But it was developed at the Klimov Design Bureau in Leningrad. That is, in the same place where later - its "copy" TV7-117.
  16. Stirbjorn
    Stirbjorn 20 August 2021 08: 09
    +4
    Bottom line: who is to blame? Those who sent a completely unprepared for flight car with under-tested engines on demonstration flights are to blame.

    What to do: to exclude the slightest possibility of "effective managers" to influence the testing program of new technology in this way.

    Interestingly, our Minister of Defense will be able to pull this?

    In my opinion, our Minister of Defense is simply obsessed with PR, so the first and last questions are mutually exclusive.
    1. AK1972
      AK1972 20 August 2021 08: 34
      +3
      Quote: Stirbjorn
      In my opinion, our Minister of Defense is simply obsessed with PR, so the first and last questions are mutually exclusive.

      That you are hooked on the Minister of Defense. He now, by the way, exhibits his brilliant paintings in the Kazan Kremlin. Should someone lead the RGS? To take the President to Tuva on a fishing trip, to play hockey. And you are here with some kind of transport worker. Can you manage to keep track of everything with such a load?
  17. Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 20 August 2021 08: 20
    +1
    A criminal case has been opened, don’t understand who, but we’ll start with it.
    The culprit will be "Uncle Misha", who, the type did not tighten the nut.
    1. spectr
      spectr 20 August 2021 10: 19
      +1
      Not at all. Either they remove someone objectionable, or they will act as with Serdyukov. First they will remove it, and then, when everything calms down, they will attach it again to the case, since the person has demonstrated his loyalty to the ruling party.
      This episode may more tarnish Shoigu's reputation if he is still being prepared for the presidency (it is very likely that they began to prepare a portfolio for him with all sorts of projects like "Shoigugrad").
    2. sick53
      sick53 20 August 2021 10: 53
      +2
      For any aviation (and not only) catastrophe, a criminal case is opened, no matter where and with whom (VKS, Navy, DOSAAF or a private trader) it did not occur! The task (who, when, what to change) is always solved by the emergency commission.
  18. DenVB
    DenVB 20 August 2021 08: 26
    0
    By the way, about weak engines. There were such AI-20 engines. Developed in Zaporozhye, but produced in the 1960s, including at the Perm plant. They were also installed on the An-32. Power from 4000 to 5000 hp They're heavier than the TV7, but the extra power more than makes up for the extra weight. Technological documentation in Perm should have been preserved. It seems to me that it is quite a good option for a light transport. The result will be something similar to the C-27 Spartan, it has 4700 hp engines. and carrying capacity at the same time 11,6 tons.
    1. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 20 August 2021 16: 48
      +1
      Quote: DenVB
      They're heavier than the TV7, but the extra power more than makes up for the extra weight.

      They are gluttonous, which means more fuel is needed, which leads to a decrease in payload. Everything is interconnected Optimum is a very delicate matter, one might say, jewelry.
  19. trophy
    trophy 20 August 2021 08: 29
    +2
    So our Minister of Defense is the most important show-off and eyewash.
    1. sick53
      sick53 20 August 2021 10: 55
      +1
      Nonsense, non-negotiable.
  20. Konnick
    Konnick 20 August 2021 08: 48
    -1
    For some reason, everyone supports the version of the Ilyushin Design Bureau about engines. And they don't say anything about the very design of the aircraft. I have already written in the comments to another article about the poor aerodynamic quality of the aircraft. At the request of the military, the section of the fuselage was significantly increased, and due to the requirements of economy, the wings were reduced. As a result, the aircraft lost the ability to do any kind of planning. And in order to fly with an enlarged fuselage and a reduced wing, engines were required much more powerful than on the An.
    1. DenVB
      DenVB 20 August 2021 09: 20
      +1
      Quote: Konnick
      As a result, the aircraft lost the ability to do any kind of planning.

      Where did you get such confidence? Any plane can actually plan. Another thing is whether he can, say, sit down while planning. But outwardly, the IL-112 does not differ much from modern classmates. They are just as plump and short-winged. Il-112 has a wing of 65 sq. meters, the maximum weight is 21 tons, the C-27J has a wing of 82 square meters, the maximum take-off weight is 31,8 tons. Our area-to-mass ratio is even better.
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 20 August 2021 09: 42
        -2
        IL-112 has a wing of 65 sq. meters,


        An-26 has 75 sq.m. 15% difference. Where is better? And with which you are comparing there what is the section of the fuselage?
        1. DenVB
          DenVB 20 August 2021 10: 04
          0
          Quote: Konnick
          An-26 has 75 sq.m. 15% difference.

          Well, I wrote - with modern ones. Although An-26, of course, is an excellent aircraft.

          Quote: Konnick
          And with which you are comparing there, what is the section of the fuselage?

          I don't know, but visually he is just as plump.


          Apparently, according to modern requirements, the ability to land on planning is not required from a transport worker. And I'm not sure that even the An-26 could land on glide, especially with a load.
      2. vovochkarzhevsky
        vovochkarzhevsky 20 August 2021 10: 07
        0
        And the closest CASA C-295 by weight?
        https://topwar.ru/104589-mnogocelevoy-transportnyy-samolet-casa-c-295.html
        The weight is more, the engines are weaker, the wing area is less.
        1. Konnick
          Konnick 20 August 2021 14: 49
          -1
          More weight, weaker engines, less wing area

          There is an Italian Aeritalia G. 222 of the same type. See how he flies at the end of the video on one motor.
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88lSLUfaNTY
          1. vovochkarzhevsky
            vovochkarzhevsky 20 August 2021 17: 25
            +2
            And what of it? Do you know the cause of the Il-112V disaster?
    2. sick53
      sick53 20 August 2021 10: 57
      +1
      "Planning" with burned out controls on the same plane, yes you, my friend, are a dreamer!
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 20 August 2021 12: 41
        0
        Planning "with burned out controls on the same plane, yes you, my friend, a dreamer


        Do you already know the conclusions of the commission on "burned out control elements"?
        The aircraft must retain the ability to fly with one engine. And if the elements "burned out", then even more so they designed with errors.
        If it is possible to fly on one engine, then the reliability is doubled in comparison with a single-engine scheme, and if not, then it is halved.
    3. ailcat
      ailcat 20 August 2021 13: 59
      +3
      The aerodynamic quality of the An-26 is about 17 (depending on the modification, for the base An-24B it is maximum, 17,2) according to test results) wing managed to get such a high quality.
      The aerodynamic quality of the Il-112V is estimated at more than 21 - that is, it is initially more volatile. And this despite the fact that it does not have a "shrunken" fuselage, suitable only for the carriage of goods in bulk, but rather "thick", designed for modern, incomparably more efficient logistics and packaged cargo.
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 20 August 2021 14: 40
        -2
        The aerodynamic quality of the Il-112V is estimated at more than 21 - that is, it is initially more volatile. And this despite the fact that it does not have a "constricted" fuselage

        And you can link to this data. That is, such a bird is called an albatross, it can soar for hours without flapping its wings, because it has less aerodynamic quality, only 20.
        1. ailcat
          ailcat 24 May 2022 22: 03
          0
          Sorry, almost a year has passed, can I not look again?
          But I’ll note about the wing: the trick is that the aerodynamic quality is affected by the length (span) of the wing, but its chord and even the specific load are almost absent (when using the appropriate aerodynamic profiles, of course). At the time of the An-24, it was not possible to create a strong wing with a sufficiently large span - so the wing was relatively short, but wide. Modern alloys and composites allow - therefore, the wing began to be made sufficiently long, increasing its aerodynamic quality (compare with gliders - they generally have narrow, narrow wings, but so long!)
          1. Konnick
            Konnick 24 May 2022 22: 14
            0
            Yes, the gliders are long, but the An-26 has a wingspan of 29 meters and this freak has 27.
            1. ailcat
              ailcat 26 May 2022 13: 01
              0
              An-24 - wing aspect ratio 11,7
              IL-112 - wing aspect ratio 11,9
              That is, even in the first approximation, the Il wing provides even a slightly better aerodynamic quality than the An-24 wing.
              Despite the fact that it is smaller and looks disproportionately small.
            2. Konnick
              Konnick 26 May 2022 13: 11
              0
              The commission finished its work, but did not publish its conclusions. The reasons will not be published, ie. design is to blame. There are no complaints about the engine.
              1. ailcat
                ailcat 26 May 2022 14: 57
                0
                Don't jump to conclusions from missing information.
                Especially not having anything to do with the issue under discussion.
    4. The comment was deleted.
  21. Eug
    Eug 20 August 2021 08: 55
    -7
    I believe that the author is 100% right - the BASIS of the tragedy is the desire for show. I don’t know whose it is. As for the technique, I would like to start with the TK in order to understand how real the characteristics laid down in it are. If, there, as mentioned in the media, there are 5 tons. at 6000 km. - then this is clearly not a replacement for the An-26, there are 5.5 tons. at 2660 km. Moreover, the volume of the cargo compartment of the Il-112 is clearly larger than that of the An-26, which implies more powerful engines and, accordingly, an increase in fuel consumption. As for the engine, the Ukrainian An-140s had a lot of problems with an engine of a similar design. The front shaft outlet has become a problem. As for me, the solution could be scaling the successful D-27 with the An-70, but the thrust should be reduced by almost 4 times ...
    1. ailcat
      ailcat 20 August 2021 14: 00
      +2
      The tragedy is based on a new technique.
      Window dressing and so on takes place only in the coverage of the incident in the press, but has nothing to do with the reasons.
      1. Eug
        Eug 20 August 2021 17: 08
        0
        As for me, the tragedy almost completely repeats the situation with the death of Chkalov. Modern methods of calculation, testing and diagnostics can prevent a lot - if, of course, no one drives you in the neck ...
        1. ailcat
          ailcat 24 May 2022 21: 52
          0
          The main cause of Chkalov's death was Chkalov himself. The plane and the rush created only prerequisites.
  22. The comment was deleted.
  23. Pavel57
    Pavel57 20 August 2021 09: 57
    0
    So no one said what to do:
    - close the project, open a new one,
    - redo the project,
    - do not touch the project, wait for the engines?
    1. DenVB
      DenVB 20 August 2021 10: 10
      0
      Quote: Pavel57
      So no one said what to do:
      - close the project, open a new one,
      - redo the project,
      - do not touch the project, wait for the engines?

      My humble opinion is that he needs more powerful engines. Then the problem with the advantage will be removed. Powerful engines - higher carrying capacity - an excessive safety margin is in demand. Unless, of course, the preponderance is caused precisely by the margin of safety.
      1. ailcat
        ailcat 20 August 2021 14: 04
        +7
        The problem with an advantage was removed a year ago.
        The overweight of 2500 kg from the TK (from the TK, and not from the constructively justified weight!) Was in the original version, when the task was to issue a CD in 4 months (as a result, it was issued with errors). De facto, the aircraft then had to be redesigned, as a result of which the prototype became lighter by 2472 kg (i.e. only 28 kg heavier than the TZ).
        And the serial ones should be lighter by another 180 kg (like 3 and 4 prototypes), that is, 152 kg lighter than according to the TK.

        PS
        Don't read the modern press in the morning.
    2. Wedmak
      Wedmak 20 August 2021 10: 22
      +5
      They have already clearly said that the tests will continue, the aircraft will be completed and put into service.
  24. vovochkarzhevsky
    vovochkarzhevsky 20 August 2021 09: 59
    +7
    The author, stating like this:
    At the same time, oddly enough it sounds, the "newest" Il-112V for 20 years of development is already somewhat outdated. The main complaints are about weight and engines, which are frankly weak for an aircraft of this class.

    It is also necessary to give reasoning why, in your opinion, the aircraft is outdated, as well as figures for the weight of the aircraft, engine power and specific power load.
    Otherwise, you just have one chatterbox in the same style of the Communist Party committees of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.
    For from the data that is on the network, only one thing is clear, if they are reliable, that is, the impracticable requirements in the TK.
  25. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 20 August 2021 10: 15
    +4
    Logically - multiple system failures. Well, the engine caught fire - the situation is unpleasant, but nothing out of the ordinary. The propeller did not feather, it is also bad, but such a situation should be countered by the controls. However, the plane began to rotate. That is, the control was disturbed so much that the pilots could not do anything physically. Conclusion - most of the controls are out of order.
    Whose fault is that the glorious aviation companies began to produce such rubbish, and not some kind of breakthrough machine, but an ordinary turboprop box, we all know. This is how the whole country is arranged in our country ...
    1. Liam
      Liam 20 August 2021 10: 29
      +1
      Quote: Mikhail3
      The propeller did not feather, it is also bad, but the controls should be countered and this situation

      This is impossible to fend off with anything, especially at such an altitude and speed. This is a 100% death of the plane.
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 20 August 2021 12: 46
        -1
        This is impossible to parry

        How is it known that it is impossible due to anti-frog, from the reports of our media? Aircraft are experiencing this problem as well.
        1. Liam
          Liam 20 August 2021 12: 56
          +4
          Quote: Konnick
          This is impossible to parry

          How is it known that it is impossible due to anti-frog, from the reports of our media? Aircraft are experiencing this problem as well.

          It will not be difficult for such an expert as you to imagine how exactly this can be parried: what actions, at what speeds and heights.
        2. mmaxx
          mmaxx 21 August 2021 07: 16
          +1
          All such cases require speed and altitude. There was neither one nor the other.
    2. DenVB
      DenVB 20 August 2021 11: 52
      +3
      Quote: Mikhail3
      The propeller did not feather, too bad

      This is not just bad, it is generally incomprehensible how this could have happened. There, the principle of operation is such that it is possible to break it on purpose.
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 20 August 2021 12: 20
        -2
        Apparently they preferred a different principle of operation. They replaced the metal with plastic, which burned out) The Soviet school of design and construction of high-tech facilities was diligently destroyed, and it cannot function in the current situation. It is designed for a fundamentally different motivation. We are swiftly falling into the third world under the bravura cries of "our victories".
    3. ailcat
      ailcat 20 August 2021 14: 11
      +4
      Too many factors.
      None of them was critical - their combination became critical (however, it is always so). If you believe the preliminary conclusion, the propeller did not fly out (such a sickly brake parachute on the right wing turned out), and the crew, introducing the barely flying aircraft into a turn towards the inoperative engine, did it too energetically - as a result, it exceeded the safe roll, lost speed and fell (moreover in a matter of seconds, because there was no stock of speed anyway). Fedorov died on the MiG-31 in about the same way - he turned the plane too energetically into a turn, hurrying to catch the runway (being sure that the plane was light - but due to the failure of the instruments, he did not know that the plane was heavier).
      1. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 20 August 2021 17: 07
        0
        Quote: ailcat
        None were critical ...

        In fact, there will be a failure of the EMF control, or again some kind of "digital" crap has come up. This is probably why the burning dvigun "did not want" to turn off, and the fuel pump continued to supply kerosene under pressure "into the furnace" ...
      2. Eug
        Eug 20 August 2021 17: 17
        0
        To be honest, I still cannot understand how a test pilot of such a level as Fedotov did not determine the presence of fuel on board by the reactions of the aircraft ... I understand that it's easy to just talk about it, especially from the couch, but still .. ...
        1. svoroponov
          svoroponov 20 August 2021 21: 34
          0
          It is practically impossible to determine the fuel level in the tanks without a pointer on a heavy fighter. Moreover, Fedorov's fuel gauge showed a minimum, that is, he was lying .. The engines could stop at any moment. Anyone in his place would have made the decision to land as quickly as possible. The chassis is released, a sharp turn with a large roll and, accordingly, with an overload that went beyond the operational limits for this type, loss of speed and a spin. Although an experienced pilot, it is a piloting error if the aircraft is a serial or technical features for a given flight mode, if the flight is test
          1. Eug
            Eug 21 August 2021 11: 47
            0
            I know the circumstances. Unfortunately, it happened the way it happened ..
  26. gridasov
    gridasov 20 August 2021 10: 19
    -1
    And in my opinion the problem is in the analysis of big data. Reassessing the value of expert data based on a one-sided view of solving many issues. Hence the infusion of a lot of money into new and completely outdated engines in principle. There are no physicists who would justify the destructiveness of these engines, at the core. The circle dance in the old fashioned way and people and hopes and prestige and defense capability and development itself into the future are dying and dying.
  27. nov_tech.vrn
    nov_tech.vrn 20 August 2021 10: 47
    +2
    At one time, it was decided there to reduce the number of aircraft produced for testing, in general, they optimized, as a result, the very first aircraft in which changes were made live, and the engine on it had previously shown a malfunction, flew to the Moscow region.
  28. lopvlad
    lopvlad 20 August 2021 10: 49
    0
    I simply refuse to talk about the "mistake" of the crew, it was the best crew of the "Ila", these were the people who were able to tear this winged misunderstanding off the ground.


    after that, you can not read further because the verdict that the aircraft is to blame for everything and its design was made by the author in the first paragraph and, of course, in the author's opinion, the USSR and its damned "communist" heritage are to blame.
    As for the tragedy, the winging of a new aircraft rarely goes without casualties, and even the most advanced Soviet SU-27 claimed a lot of test pilots' lives. such "weight" and stupidly bought Antonov's products.
    1. DenVB
      DenVB 20 August 2021 14: 47
      +1
      Quote: lopvlad
      even the most advanced Soviet SU-27 claimed the lives of test pilots

      That's it, that's the most advanced. Here the comparison is still incorrect. A supersonic fighter with a revolutionary degree of novelty. Fourth generation - integral layout, static instability, EDSU, turbofan engine. The aerodynamics were so complex that Soviet computers could not cope with the calculations.

      The Il-112 is a typical average. Slow-moving light transport. No revolutionaries. Taking lives on tests does not suit him at all.
      1. lopvlad
        lopvlad 20 August 2021 20: 40
        0
        Quote: DenVB
        Here the comparison is still incorrect.


        It is quite correct, especially considering that fighters have always been produced in Russia and there was experience in their development and design. The light transport aircraft has never been produced in Russia, there is no experience in the design and treatment of their childhood illnesses.
        But we will succeed and this plane will be willingly bought by foreign countries.
  29. Glagol1
    Glagol1 20 August 2021 10: 52
    +1
    Black August of Russian aviation:
    Be-200 8 lives, incl. one of the best naval pilots, then the Mi-8 in Kamchatka, 7 more lives, the Il-112 and 3 lost aces, the Mi-29 and the pilot are gone. What's happening? There is no such thing even in Africa.
    Well, the Il-112 still needs to be improved, and the 117th engine too. Nowhere to go.
    In the aviation industry, it is necessary to strengthen control over flight safety, primarily from the military.
    1. svoroponov
      svoroponov 20 August 2021 21: 39
      0
      90 percent of all accidents are human factors, that is, errors in piloting. The rest is aircraft failures and other factors.
  30. APASUS
    APASUS 20 August 2021 10: 54
    -3
    Our high managers are already accustomed to the fact that there is nothing to show, so they drag at least something, thereby making excuses for the colossal expenses and lack of results.
  31. ivan2022
    ivan2022 20 August 2021 11: 05
    +5
    Um-huh ...... it's the USSR and Lenin and Stalin to blame for the fact that in our society the servants who are in a hurry to please the master for the master's holiday become the bosses. And then journalists write about the consequences of slave articles on the topic; "to pout so that everything is according to the mind, but not to pout without the mind."
  32. svoroponov
    svoroponov 20 August 2021 11: 33
    +2
    A good engine is a bad engine. And what if it is not the engine that is to blame, but the destruction of the fuel line to the engine and the ingress of fuel on the engine, respectively, a fire. There were few examples in the history of aviation of similar cases both in our country and abroad. It's just that they immediately try to put it in print, knowing that there will be nothing for it, but in the West, it is possible for such placement without the consent of the company - the designer (manufacturer) of the aircraft or engine, or pointless petulance of the authorities to sit down for a long time or lose your job. And more often people in the West will learn about such disasters after years.
    So it is not necessary to express various nonsense for the sake of just something to say and identify yourself. Let's wait for the conclusions of the disaster commission, and then we will already express our personal, often technically illiterate, opinion
    1. Revival
      Revival 20 August 2021 15: 50
      0
      "and in the west, you can sit down for a long time for such pointless mockery of the authorities."

      Can I have some examples?
      I don’t remember something like that.
      1. svoroponov
        svoroponov 20 August 2021 21: 19
        +1
        For this reason, do not remember that the overwhelming majority of facts are hushed up or even do not get into the press.
        For example, the F-35 has about 800 flaws, of which about 300 are simply dangerous. What do you know about these disadvantages? What have you learned about them through the press?
        1. Revival
          Revival 20 August 2021 21: 53
          -1
          I'm asking for examples:
          "and in the west, you can sit down for a long time for such pointless mockery of the authorities."

          Do you think I have direct contact with the designers, testers, operators of F35, and I could learn about all its shortcomings not from the press?
  33. The comment was deleted.
  34. Sergey Averchenkov
    Sergey Averchenkov 20 August 2021 11: 59
    +4
    Dear author, many years have passed since the times of the USSR, and you continue to refer to the union. May be enough? Maybe it's time to answer ourselves? Although ... if you remember him in vain, it confirms his greatness.
  35. seacap
    seacap 20 August 2021 12: 05
    +3
    For 30 years of "breakthroughs and getting up from their knees" our raging and stupefied with dough, permissiveness, irresponsibility and complete impunity to know, for some reason, having declared itself an elite, is successful only in the field of plundering and selling the Soviet legacy, destroying the country and destroying people, already more similar to genocide, i.e. "on the final solution of the Slavic question", which failed in 41st. Such losses of territorial, material and human, exceeding the loss of 2 MV, ours, nor ours (in which there are already great doubts, whether ours), not a single country in the world in the entire history of mankind has ever suffered. It is high time to declare and cultivate, following the example of the Jews, our Slavic "Catastrophe". Moreover, this is absolutely a crime against humanity on a global scale, which is the most offensive, without any external intervention and cataclysms, only as a result of the purposeful activity of the leadership of their own country, people without honor and conscience, for the sake of their own philistine ambitions, thirst for power and sheer mediocrity, wretchedness of the intellect, cowardice and venality, a degenerated and degraded party nomenclature. The legacy of the most talented Soviet designers, engineers and specialists has been plundered, ineptly squandered, works in foreign and foreign countries, its own engineering (and not only) school, science is successfully destroyed, I apologize, reformed and optimized by "effective managers" Serdyukov, Rogozin and other furniture makers and journalists, and the people, its best representatives, pay with their lives. Another 1-2 generations of "advanced consumers" and no WorkSkills, "ours and yours", all kinds of NFOs and NGOs, garbage-beau monde and majors, bureaucrats, bankers, speculators-stockists, politicians of all stripes and all kinds of experts, all this army "parasites" are not able to create, but only consume and "master" anything and will never create, and the prospects look sad.
  36. Ross xnumx
    Ross xnumx 20 August 2021 13: 15
    -5
    Thank you, Roman, for not ignoring the tragedy. Your opinion matters to me.
    In the meantime, we have another shame and another tragedy.

    It is sad to read and realize it, but it is a fact. And the most sincere desire in such cases is the expression of condolences to the victims. Too often, the fate of the military and people of dangerous, risky professions ends tragically and transiently.
    What to do: to exclude the slightest possibility of "effective managers" to influence the testing program of new technology in this way.

    It is only necessary to do what at one time moved the domestic (Soviet) industry forward - to remove from production, science, engineering random people who have nothing to do with the specifics of a particular case. It is because of them: defective managers, commercial parasites, transformed speculators, our economy is shaken by such misfortunes.
    Interestingly, our Minister of Defense will be able to pull this?

    I do not believe in the independence of the Minister of Defense and in his ability to make radical decisions, because I do not consider the Main Temple of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation to be an urgent need, capable of strengthening the defense capability of the Armed Forces and raising the power of the army and navy to the required height. If a minister travels around the country and promotes a party whose rating is based on officials, dreams of building million-plus cities in unpopulated Siberia ...
    To solve problems, you need to know them from the inside ...
    ==========
  37. Andrey A
    Andrey A 20 August 2021 13: 59
    +2
    "TV7-117 is a copied continuation of the Ukrainian TV3-117 produced by Motor Sich. But very rarely the copy was better than the original. So it happened with TV7-117." - says the author of the article. This is not true. The TV3-117 engines are Russian, they were only assembled in Ukraine, and designed in St. Petersburg, where the design bureau is located. We didn't need to copy the Ukrainian engines, they are ours and all rights and all the documentation for them is with us. As for TV7-117 ST, the engines are not finished and their tests are not finished. If we go back to the Il-112, we managed to reduce the weight of the aircraft, there are no complaints about the design of the aircraft. With regard to the insufficient power of the Il-112 engines, this statement of the author, from my point of view, is far-fetched. An-140 so, in general, had an engine power of 2500 forces, with a mass of 21 tons, i.e. exactly the same as that of the Il-112. And the TV7-117 SM 2002 engine has a takeoff power of 2650 forces, that is, more than that of the AN-140, which, in reality, was produced and was quite satisfactory for our military. Namely, TV7-117 SM, initially, was supposed to be installed on the Il-114, but then its power seemed to be small. A modification TV7-117 ST appeared, where the takeoff power was already 2800 forces, and then with a maximum takeoff power of 3100 forces. And all this in order to increase the speed by 1,5 - 5%? Is it worth the trouble: with increasing power, the range decreases and reliability decreases noticeably. - After all, the payment for forcing is an increase in its temperatures inside the engine. Well, and, of course, the automatic engine control system, which was supposed to ensure the safety of the engine forcing, looks not finished, or maybe it is, simply, sabotage. - In any case, a MiG-29 also fell recently, with the engine of the same "Klimovsky" Design Bureau.
  38. Evgeny Zalesov
    Evgeny Zalesov 20 August 2021 14: 29
    -1
    Alas, Richie is much simpler and scarier. Almost all electronics were bought in China, then creatively renamed "Made in Russia" and installed. Here is the result.
  39. The comment was deleted.
  40. Boa kaa
    Boa kaa 20 August 2021 15: 10
    -3
    Interestingly, our Minister of Defense will be able to pull this?

    Naive eccentric Skomorokhov! The Ministry of Emergency Situations has no time:
    1. He draws pictures
    2. He builds temples
    3. He heads the Geographical Society
    4. He heads the electoral list of EdRosov. (Although neither Lavrov nor Shayga are going to sit in the State Duma as deputies ...)
    Therefore, Shayga is a nominally ritual figure, that is, POLITICAL. This is a very high state level. On which everything is decided "in principle", but narrowly sharpened, sharp-witted specialists should deal with the particulars.
    VERDICT: PROFIs should deal with aviation and armament of the army and navy ... and not "pollitriks" who know about everything and in general ... but do not understand "to the cog" in details, that is, in particulars.
    IMHO.
    1. tasha
      tasha 20 August 2021 15: 20
      +1
      Alessandr, the name of the current Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation is Shoigu ... hi
      1. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 20 August 2021 15: 58
        -2
        Quote: tasha
        Shoigu ...

        Colleague, the thing is that "shaiga" from Kalmyk = GRAVE.
        In my opinion, everything is clear ... The oprichnik got bronzed, he got bronzed ...
        1. tasha
          tasha 20 August 2021 16: 10
          0
          the grave
          -y, n. f. I orshalһna nүkn, orshavr
          Russian-Kalmyk dictionary> grave
    2. Adagka
      Adagka 20 August 2021 15: 49
      0
      yes, he still needs to get a generalissimo for another stupid megalith (maybe for example, together with a trampoline, saw down a temple for the glory of the construction of a cosmodrome), which is needed only for cutting budget money.
  41. The comment was deleted.
  42. Alexander dx
    Alexander dx 20 August 2021 15: 22
    +4
    The author, analyze your text, you may understand that you have written nonsense! Was the plane needed or not? Would he have crashed near Voronezh, and not near Moscow, what would have changed from this? A sofa expert, nothing more.
    1. Adagka
      Adagka 20 August 2021 15: 47
      -1
      tests are needed - no show.
      what is there to analyze then? it would not have bothered in one place for someone to show an urgently unfinished plane, you look and it would have flown a couple of weeks later and it is quite possible that something would have been finished in it and the pilots would have survived.
      1. svoroponov
        svoroponov 20 August 2021 22: 05
        +3
        The aircraft was in a test flight. There was a disaster. Experts will figure it out. Well, about saws - this is how everyone judges themselves. Greed and envy are bad counselors. People with such character traits can only scold others. And most likely, if you take the place of managers without talent, you will become the same “effective managers” who are scolded here
  43. Alexander dx
    Alexander dx 20 August 2021 15: 24
    0
    Flight tests were needed. It happened near Voronezh or near Moscow, what changes from this?
  44. AC130 Gunship
    AC130 Gunship 20 August 2021 15: 49
    0
    I agree with almost all the theses of the author. But at the expense of "interest buyers" - I disagree. Only the deaf-mute does not understand that this plane is not needed by anyone except the Russian Federation. In this market niche in the world there is a colossal competition. Either Il of such a plan is simply given to some Armenia / Somalia / Afghanistan, or it is supplied to the Russian Aerospace Forces. FSE.
    The C123, of the same size and taking off in 1949, took 11 tons of payload. Il112, which took off 70 years later, did not even take 5 .... What else is there to talk about?
    The crew is truly sorry
  45. tank64rus
    tank64rus 20 August 2021 16: 30
    0
    “Bottom line: who is to blame? Those who sent a completely unprepared for flight car with under-tested engines on demonstration flights are to blame.” In 1947, a similar story happened with the MIG-9 jet fighter, test pilot L. Grinchik died while showing the plane to noble visitors. " They said about him that this pilot could not crash. The plane was brought to the series by his friend Mark Gallay, who would later become a doctor, professor and instructor of Yuri Gagarin. Eternal Memory and Glory to the fallen test pilots.
    1. niksfromru
      niksfromru 20 August 2021 17: 02
      0
      However, the initiator of the demonstration of steep turns ("no worse than the Yak-15") on the MiG-9 was Grinchik himself. Despite the fact that the leading engineer A.T. Karev reminded the pilot before the flight that the aircraft had not yet been tested for such overloads. According to the emergency commission, it was the increased overloads that caused the initial deformation of the unsuccessfully designed wing fairing, which led to its separation during the subsequent high-speed passage.
    2. mmaxx
      mmaxx 21 August 2021 07: 25
      0
      One thing can be said.
      The test pilot at the firm and at the factory is a very significant figure with a salary comparable to that of a general director. And no one can go against his opinion. If the pilots were sure that this plane could go to the forum, then we cannot have any other opinion. There were doubts. So Tolboyev is talking about it. But ... Only a catastrophe put everything in place.
  46. lukewarm
    lukewarm 20 August 2021 17: 32
    -2
    The Minister of Defense will not be able to pull that much! He tested the biathlon track on the T-80! And much more. Doing business with everything and making money in front of technical solutions is not even a sign of the time. Something more. When in VK I asked the question: "And what else isn't there to sell for a fig?" (it was about "Chess"). A lot of people skillfully explained to me that everyone is doing this, not fools. And we are not fools, but like everyone else, then we are doing the right thing. For whose money to develop what you are already selling? And eliminate the jambs. Sales managers manage everything from ball valves to military aircraft manufacturing. Ponty is our everything. Well, and the big question is, if not for show, would he not have fallen on a test flight in the same way? Or did they know something and made you fly? Everything about engines is clear from the article. And about the testers - a fond memory and eternal flight. By the way, guys are all age. Were...
  47. dima314
    dima314 20 August 2021 18: 46
    +5
    I was also touched by the author's free treatment of information. The TV3-117 Klimovsk and Motor Sich engines are just a serial plant, not a creator. Anas that are being worn by Russia, Soviet and Ukraine were not produced or almost never produced, well, An-24 and An-26 so for sure. Now the rut on TV7-117 is also not clear. no one has yet proven that the engine was destroyed! That he has few horses is also controversial, because he has quite enough. I don’t know the resource and reliability of the engine, although I can admit that it’s raw. It is unlikely that the author is so good at the topic that he knows the details of the development and fine-tuning of the engine, but if the engine is unsuccessful, then it crashes. as many as three programs are Il-112 and Il-114 and
    Mi-38. Now about the ostentatiousness of the event. If the cause of the disaster is really a mistake in the design or production of an experimental machine, then it would have fallen all the same, and what difference does it make when. In principle, the preparatory flight has not yet been an exhibition flight. Of course, the current design school and the level of technology are far from required, but there is no point in nodding towards the Soviet past. In Soviet times, people and planes were often beaten during tests. Another thing is that in the world now almost no testers are killed and almost no prototypes are lost, there are also big claims to the UEC and the UAC.
    1. Devil13
      Devil13 21 August 2021 00: 36
      -1
      for a civilian IL-114 which is a hundred years old at lunchtime - maybe. but not for a heavy transport
      https://www.bbc.com/russian/features-58254100?xtor=AL-73-%5Bpartner%5D-%5Bbbc.news.twitter%5D-%5Bheadline%5D-%5Brussian%5D-%5Bbizdev%5D-%5Bisapi%5D&at_campaign=64&at_custom4=B53BDBB8-00B9-11EC-83D2-2CCC4744363C&at_medium=custom7&at_custom2=facebook_page&at_custom3=BBC+News+Russian&at_custom1=link&fbclid=IwAR2JldsU2v99C8O2FeHdCOTs235etV5UR_SOHNL-s9Fk3oD8tpydmn83BXk
  48. 9lvariag
    9lvariag 20 August 2021 20: 26
    -1
    Quote: Jacket in stock
    Quote: Grandfather is an amateur
    Everything that is now being developed is based on Soviet drawings.

    So what?
    Look "Hercules" in the states for how many years fly.
    Quote: Grandfather is an amateur
    and where are the Russian designers?

    And why should they take it? What if a waiter in a pub gets more than an experienced engineer?

    So, yes, sailors have how many programs for VTA (and even stealth), and old-timers in the planets. decisions C-5 and C-130 and do not think to change.
  49. 9lvariag
    9lvariag 20 August 2021 20: 37
    +1
    Quote: atalef
    Quote: Wedmak
    It took place 60 years ago. Only Musk does everything with modern technology. He has nothing fundamentally new.

    Well, yes, the ion engine is fundamentally new, is the Yu spacecraft to which the nuclear reactor is attached - is it fundamentally new?
    Northern all-terrain vehicles - this is generally cool - for the first time in the world?
    Did you create any floating power plants of the type?
    Or do you think that Plucking NPP is fundamentally different from
    http://korabley.net/news/plavuchie_ehlektrostancii_karadeniz_powership/2017-12-11-1875

    so there are over 80 of them in the world
    Quote: Wedmak
    And what, you just need a nanoultramegasuper technique?

    well, this is your statement
    Quote: Wedmak
    Secondly, indicate at least some countriesy, producing (or at least a prototype under construction) a fundamentally new technique? For example, a nuclear space tug? Small, including floating nuclear power plants? Unique ATVs for the server?


    Quote: Wedmak
    An international project, our scientists have invested there oh, how many.

    How do you know how much?
    By the way, the entire nuclear program of the USSR is an 80% stolen Manhattan project.

    Che woke up unsuccessfully?
  50. 9lvariag
    9lvariag 20 August 2021 20: 42
    +1
    Quote: atalef
    Quote: Wedmak
    I see ... a very strong argument.

    of course .
    you can only compare with anlags or with what you have developed, but others did not succeed.
    What can you say about this?

    Is it the largest and best in the world 7 Or is America just the only country that has it?
    I lean - that they are just the only ones
    But this is the largest

    and the most powerful in the world - shopping mall. there is someone to compare

    Quote: Wedmak
    I will not argue further. About nothing.

    And rightly so - leave the slogans until the elections.

    Is this really necessary? Expensive stuffed with electronics (like you can't go there - you can't go there) and the most emergency V-22 tiltrotor ?! Oh well? Most of all I have not seen nonsense.
    Come on, a nuclear aircraft carrier. we are familiar. That the arguments are over, since these coffin-speed-bearers have gone into action? And does Israel have a lot of nuclear aircraft carriers? Ten?