Battle of Ronseval Gorge, its results and consequences

Battle of Ronseval Gorge, its results and consequences
Charlemagne in Ronseval Gorge

Today we will finish the story started in the article. "Furious" Roland in literature and lifeand also talk about historical the basis of the events described in the epic poem "Song of Roland".

Battle of Ronseval Gorge

Roland's battle with the Moors, XNUMXth century miniature

So, having concluded a peace treaty with Charles, Marsilius orders his son to attack the rearguard of the French army, which is commanded by Roland. The army of Zaragoza, in addition to the Moors, according to the "Song", included warriors gathered from all over the world. Among them were the Slavs and separately the Rus, Livs, Pechenegs, Canaanites, Persians, Jews, Avars, Huns, Nubians, Negroes and many others.

This great army overtook the French in the Ronseval Gorge.

Olivier sees the army of Zaragoza

Then begins the story of the "epic battle", the significance of which for France is so great that a hurricane with thunder and lightning begins in this country. It mainly tells about Roland's heroic behavior - so stupid and inadequate that you begin to feel the desire that the avatars of this character were invariably in command positions in the camp of opponents and in no case in their own army.

Roland is, of course, the perfect warrior:

"Beautiful in body, bold in his face, arms and armor suit him."

Enemies immediately recognize him by his stateliness and beauty of his face. Roland's spearhead, adorned with a white badge, "rises menacingly into the sky."

But the forces of the parties are clearly not equal, and the main army of Charles is very close. To call her for help, Roland needs to give a conventional sign - just blow the horn, which has its own name - Olifan (from the French olifant - elephant).

Ivory horn, Southern Italy, XNUMXth century, London, Victoria and Albert Museum

Wise Olivier and invites Roland to give a signal before the start of the battle. And then two more times calls on him to use the horn to call for help - already during the battle.
Roland replies arrogantly:

"Shame and disgrace are terrible to me - not death."

Apparently, because the phrase "dementia and courage" was the real (albeit unofficial) motto of this knight. He is not even embarrassed by the fact that in the course of the battle reinforcements are approaching the Moors - another army led by Marsilius himself (according to the author of the Song, there are selected formations of Turks, Armenians, Oxians and some Malprose regiment). And Marsilius also sent for help to the emir Baligan Sedom, promising to give him Saragossa.

Baligan's army ships

The French fight like lions, and the main characters bring down enemies no worse than the Russian epic heroes. Roland personally kills Marsilius Aelroth's nephew and cuts off Marsil's own hand.

Roland cuts off Aelroth's head

At the hands of Olivier, this king's brother Falzaron and the great caliph perish.

Olivier kills Falzaron

Archbishop Turpin slays the Barbary king of Corsablis (and 400 others).

Turpin hits Korsablis

These victories do not prevent the heroes from fainting at the sight of their wounded or killed friends every now and then.

The French repulsed four attacks, but the fifth battle is especially fierce, from the entire group of Roland only 60 people remain alive. And at this moment, even the great hero begins to understand: something went wrong as intended. And he asks Olivier: why not use Olifan's horn at last?

But Olivier, who realizes that Roland has in vain destroyed the detachment entrusted to him, the battle is lost, there is no salvation, falls into depression and melancholy. He says that it is too late to call for help and begins to reproach his friend:

“You did not heed when I called to you,
And now it's too late to call for our help.
It would be disgraceful to trumpet now ...
To be brave is not enough - to be reasonable,
And it's better to know when to stop than to be crazy.
Your pride has ruined the French. "

But still alive is the wise Archbishop Turpin, who makes a speech in the style of the hero of the Soviet film "Two Comrades Served": they say, "Let these bastards not rejoice, because we will die today, and they - tomorrow." And he gives good advice: in order for the enemies to die tomorrow (or better - today), it would be necessary to finally blow Olifan's horn. Then the army of Charles will return, avenge the fallen, and bury him with military honors, as expected.

“No one can save us anymore,
But you still have to trumpet.
Karl will hear, he will take revenge on the unfaithful,
The French won't let the Moors leave.
They will descend from their horses,
They will see us cut into pieces
Pay our death with all their hearts,
We will be strapped to mules on packs
And our ashes will be taken to monasteries. "

Roland blows the horn. Karl (right) hears his call. Turpin (left) continues to fight

Karl and his knights hear Roland's horn, but Ganelon says to them: why don't you guys know my stepson? Indulges in small, do not pay attention.

Meanwhile, Olivier has already been killed, the seriously wounded Roland is barely breathing, only Turpin and Gaultier de L'On are alive in the detachment.

Death of Olivier

Roland takes turns bringing the fallen peers of France to the bleeding Turpin, the archbishop blesses them and dies.

Turpin blesses one of the peers of France

Roland then says goodbye to his sword and tries unsuccessfully to break it against the rocks.

Charlemagne presents Roland with the Durendal sword (from the adjective dur - "hard", in French this word is feminine). Christian relics were kept in the handle of this sword - the blood of St. Basil, the hair of St. Denis, the tooth of the Apostle Peter, a fragment of the vestment of the Virgin Mary

Roland's image on the stained glass window of Chartres Cathedral: the knight blows his horn and tries to break his sword

The Archangel Gabriel appears to Roland, before whom he "repented of his sins to the Creator, held out a glove as a pledge."

And for some reason it is argued that "the count died, but won in battle."

Death of Roland, miniature of the manuscript "Great French Chronicles", XNUMXth century

Luc Olivier Merson. Roland de Ronceveau

Memorial sign at the alleged place of Roland's death

Return of the Christian army

Knights of Charlemagne, medieval miniature

Karl, meanwhile, did not believe Ganelon and deployed an army.

In Ronseval Gorge, he saw a battlefield on which there is no place "where the slain would not lie on the ground." Many of the knights accompanying him, according to the good old Frankish tradition, fainted:

“There are twenty thousand people without feelings (!)”.

Karl over Roland's body. The three French knights on the right are about to faint

Having come to his senses, the king, having drawn the sword "Joyez", into which the tip of Longinus's spear was melted and which changed color 30 times a day, he led his army into battle.

Sword Joyeuse ("joyous" or "rainbow"), Louvre

The Moors of Zaragoza flee, but Baligan's army approaches. The French enter a new battle with the cry of Mont-joie Saint-Denis. And their opponents for some reason go into battle shouting "Presioz".

What's this? Précieuse !? "Cutesy", "artsy" and so on? Original. Well, okay, let's say that the French heard some kind of phrase unknown to us in Arabic.

Karl met in a personal duel with Baligan, who almost defeated him, stabbing him in the head. But the archangel Gabriel comes to the aid of the Christian monarch, who recently received repentance from the dying Roland.

Karl vs. Baligan

The wounded Marsilius dies in Zaragoza, his wife Bramimonda surrenders the city and is baptized, receiving the new name Julian.

Bramimonda at the corpse of Marsilia

The French baptize the Moors in captured Zaragoza.

After the battle

Having defeated the Moors, Charles begins to understand what happened.

It is necessary to appoint someone responsible for the defeat and death of the rearguard. Indeed, in the Ronseval Gorge, not only ordinary soldiers, but also the Archbishop of Reims and 12 peers of France found their death. And this is already a scandal, and the family members of the victims are looking at their king in a bad way and askance.

The main anti-hero here is undoubtedly Roland, who, due to stupid vanity, entered an unequal battle without reporting the attack on his squad. But Roland's accusation casts a shadow on Karl himself, who appointed an absolutely inappropriate person to command the rearguard. Although at his disposal was the same "wise Olivier", for example.

This is probably why Roland was declared a hero who fully fulfilled his duty. Ganelon remained, who, most likely, did not betray France to the Moors, but only wanted to substitute his stepson. Knowing well the character of Roland, he therefore achieved his appointment as commander of the rearguard units, because he was sure that the young knight would definitely climb to gain glory for himself, would not cope and would lose the king's favor.

And who in Zaragoza would have believed Ganelon - a man who had just very tough negotiations and forced the emir to conclude an unprofitable agreement? They would have decided that the cunning Frenchman was preparing a trap for the Moorish army.

Ganelon appeared before the court, at which he innocently declared:

"I will not lie:
The Count has deprived me of my treasures.
So I wished Roland's death.
You can’t call it treason ”!

Ganelon before Charlemagne's trial

This, it turns out, is the root cause of their conflict: the usual dispute between "economic entities". Taking advantage of the king's favor, Karl's favorite Roland, apparently, appropriated part of his stepfather's estates. Henceforth, the king should be fairer, acting as an arbiter in litigation between his vassals.

Charles' courtiers were divided.

A relative of Ganelon Pinnabel took the side of the accused. Another 30 people acted as guarantors of Ganelon. Thierry and Geoffroy did not agree with them, and therefore it was decided to hold a judicial duel.

Thierry managed to defeat Pinnabel, after which both Ganelon and 30 people who spoke in his defense were executed. Ganelon was tied to four wild horses, which literally tore him apart. The people who vouched for him were simply hanged.

Roland's fiancé Alda (Olivier's sister) died upon hearing of his death.

Death of Alda

However, perhaps she was more struck by the news of the fate of the wise brother, who died in vain because of the recklessness of her fiancé.

Charles, groaning, hears the voice of the Archangel Gabriel, announcing that a new difficult war with the Saracens awaits his country ahead (but what about the great victories just won over the Moors?).


In 778, one of the emirs of the Iberian Peninsula, who was waging a grueling war with his Cordoba "colleague", decided to seek help from the Frankish ruler Charles (the Great). For military assistance, he promised to give him Zaragoza, but he forgot to ask the opinion of the inhabitants of this city (or maybe it was immediately conceived?).

In general, they did not want to open the gates in front of Karl. After spinning around and realizing that he was deceived, Karl went to his homeland. However, on the way to Zaragoza, his army sacked the Basque city of Pamplona. The Basques, hungry for revenge, attacked and defeated the rearguard of his army, in which the Breton margrave Hruodland was located.

The Annals of the Kingdom of the Franks says:

“Returning, Karl decided to go through the gorge of the Pyrenees. The Basques, setting up an ambush at the very top of that gorge, threw the whole army into great confusion. And although the Franks outnumbered the Basques, as weapons, and courage, but the superiority was defeated due to the unevenness of the place and the impossibility for the Franks to fight. In that battle, many of the confidants whom the king put at the head of his army were killed, the baggage train was plundered; the enemy, thanks to the knowledge of the area, immediately scattered in different directions. "

Einhard (Egingard) in "The Life of Charlemagne" ("Vita Caroli Magni" dated to the beginning of the XNUMXth century) reports:

“On his return, Charles had to suffer from the Basque treachery. For, when he was moving in an extended formation, as required by the conditions of the terrain and gorges, the Basque people, setting up an ambush at the very top of the mountain (these places are very favorable for ambushes due to the dense forests there), attacked from above, dropping the baggage train into the valley. and those who, walking in the rearguard, guarded the front. And, starting a battle with them, they killed every one, and they themselves, having plundered the baggage train, scattered with great speed in all directions under the cover of the already coming night. In this matter, the Basque people were helped by the lightness of their weapons and the location of the area where this happened; on the contrary, the severity of the weapons and the inconvenience of the terrain made the Franks unequal to the Basconians in everything ... In this battle, Eggihard, the royal steward, Anselm, the count palatine, and Hruodland, the chief of the Breton mark, were killed along with many others. "

Roland Olivier's friend is mentioned in the margins of the Nota Emilianense (Latin text, written around 1065) as one of Charlemagne's 12 nephews. He is also the hero of the "Girard de Vienne" gesture, written by Bertrand de Bar-sur-Aub around 1180. This poem tells about the seven-year war of Girard against Charlemagne, which it was decided to end after a duel between the best fighters of the opposing sides. From Karl, Roland from Brittany went to the duel, from Girard - Olivier from Vienne. After none of these knights were defeated, they swore an oath of friendship and acted as mediators in the conclusion of peace between Girard and Charles.

Galiens li Restores states that Olivier had a son, Galien, born to the Byzantine princess Jacqueline. He sees his father only once - in the Ronseval Gorge, having only managed to exchange a couple of phrases with the dying knight. After that, he returns to Constantinople and becomes emperor.

Archbishop Turpin of Reims is a completely historical person. According to the marginal notes of the same Nota Emilianense, he is also Charlemagne's nephew. A certain monk Jacques Doublet wrote in 1625 that Turpin's sword, with which he fought against the Moors, is kept in the treasury of the Abbey of Saint-Denis.

In fact, Turpin was the first and very authoritative archbishop of Reims, in 769 he attended a meeting of the Roman Synod, where the relationship between the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople was discussed. The legend about his participation in the Battle of Ronseval appeared only in the XNUMXth century.

Turpin von Reims to the right of Charlemagne, Aachen, Shrine of Charlemagne

And who could serve as the prototype for the "traitor Ganelon" (sometimes he is called Guenilon)?

Many researchers believe that such was the cleric Venilon (Wenilo or Guenilo), who served a completely different monarch - Karl the Bald. In 837 he became Archbishop of Sansa, and in 843 he even crowned Charles in the Church of the Holy Cross in Orleans. In 858, Charles's state was invaded by the army of his brother, Louis the German, who was summoned by the rebels led by Robert the Strong, Count of Tours and Angers. Robert was supported by Counts Ed of Orleans and Adalard of Paris, as well as Archbishop Venilon. In 859, at a cathedral in the city of Savonier, Charles accused Venilon of treason, but soon changed his anger to mercy and pardoned the disgraced hierarch.

Let's return to Charlemagne, who, after an unsuccessful campaign in 778, began to strengthen Aquitaine, sending Frankish settlers into it.

In 781 the status of Aquitaine was elevated to a kingdom, the throne of which was taken by Charles' three-year-old son Louis. At the same time, the county of Toulouse was created. In the 790s, new, albeit short-term, expeditions to the Iberian Peninsula took place. Their result was the emergence of the Spanish Mark with the cities of Girona, Urgell and Vic. In 801, King Louis of Aquitaine managed to capture Barcelona, ​​which became the capital of the Spanish mark. In 806 Pamplona was taken.

These events, of course, are much more significant than the unsuccessful campaign of Charlemagne for the Pyrenees, which took place in 778. But the heart of a poet cannot be ordered.

It was the defeat in the Ronseval Gorge that gave impetus to the writing of one of the greatest heroic poems, and then the famous knightly novels, which were read by the nobles of all Europe. Jean-Baptiste Lully, Antonio Vivaldi and Georg Friedrich Handel wrote operas on this subject.

In the XNUMXth century, poems were written, which are now studied in literature lessons by all schoolchildren in France: "The Horn" by Alfred de Vigny and "Legend of the Ages" by Victor Hugo.

In the XNUMXth century, Roland became the hero of some films.

Poster for the film "Orlando and the Paladins of France", Italy, 1956

Still from the film "Song of Roland", France, 1978

The trace in world culture left by "The Song of Roland" is so great that neither the true historical outline, which became the basis of its plot, nor the dubious behavior of the protagonist, no longer matters.
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121 comment
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  1. +13
    18 August 2021 05: 27
    We sing songs to the madness of the brave !!!
    Drawing analogies with Russian art, one recalls our own “legend about Igor's regiment” and the initial chapters of the “tale of bygone years”. Although we must admit the unknown author of the "legend" is an order of magnitude more reliable than his French counterpart.
    Thank you Valery and wish you not to stop at Roland!
    1. +11
      18 August 2021 06: 29
      "A word about Igor's regiment." A word, not a legend.
      1. +6
        18 August 2021 07: 03
        Yes, Alexy, you are certainly right.
        1. +5
          18 August 2021 18: 26
          hi I wrote not because of tediousness, the word and the legend have different meanings, the legend is the narration of the events of the old, and the word is the narration of the events that happened relatively not long ago. Why they still argue, the Word is fake or not, the author of the Word is unknown, and Judging by the text, an eyewitness wrote. How many such works have disappeared have not reached. hi
          1. +3
            18 August 2021 18: 49
            Quote: parusnik
            I didn’t write it out of boringness,

            Alexy, I didn’t even think about you like that. A mistake is a mistake, a mistake must be corrected! Thank you for that !!!
          2. 0
            4 November 2021 13: 55
            Quote: parusnik
            the author of the Word is unknown, but judging by the text, an eyewitness wrote.

            Prince Igor himself, perhaps. Some events (Igor's escape from captivity) took place clearly without witnesses.
            In this case, one can call "Memoirs of Igor's Regiment".
    2. +8
      18 August 2021 11: 02
      Archbishop Turpin slays the Barbary king of Corsablis (and 400 others).

      Peresvet and Oslyabya are quietly smoking on the sidelines. laughing

      1. +3
        18 August 2021 11: 40
        Quote: Sea Cat
        Peresvet and Oslyabya are quietly smoking on the sidelines.

        Uncle Kostya, grandfather Columbus was not born yet, so there was nothing to smoke. Fire water has not yet been invented, so flabbling on the side is not about them either! Of all the pleasures, only "women", but Elder Sergei apparently kept everyone in check, so the brothers had to look for their share in the Kulikovo field.
        1. +5
          18 August 2021 11: 53
          Of all the pleasures, only "women" ...

          But what about it - "And I was there, drinking honey beer"? Although women are also very good. wink drinks
        2. +5
          18 August 2021 11: 59
          Yes, a fight in full force against an equal opponent is much more exciting and requires much more concentration than communicating with beautiful ladies ... And hormones are released no less. smile
        3. ANB
          18 August 2021 13: 45
          ... grandfather Columbus was not born yet, so there was nothing to smoke

          Hemp was already in the Old World. :)
          So it’s quite.
      2. +1
        19 August 2021 01: 07
        Peresvet and Oslyabya quietly smoke on the sidelines

        Inoki is the same myth as Roland. How can a monk (if it is not some kind of Templar) kill, even on the battlefield? A famous case of this kind is Bishop Odo, brother of William the Conqueror, who participated in the Battle of Hastings. On the famous banner from Bayeux, he is depicted with a wooden club! In order not to break the commandments and not to shed someone else's blood.
        The historicity of Peresvet and Oslyabi is undeniable, but they took the tonsure similarly after the battle on the Kulikovo field: the first on his deathbed, the second much later.
        1. 0
          19 August 2021 12: 19
          When the existence of the monastery is at stake, the monks normally took part in the battles, an example of this was the attack of the Pskov-Pechersky Monastery, where the monks fought off the siege and repulsed it ...
      3. 0
        12 October 2021 17: 00
        Here, not only do you not light a cigarette on the sidelines - how not to drink it down from chagrin! laughing
  2. +13
    18 August 2021 06: 41
    Thanks for the articles, I read it with great pleasure! In the first part of the article, Ogier the Danish or Ogier la Danois, aka Holger the Dane, is also mentioned, also an equally interesting character. According to legend, he is still sleeping in the Kronborg castle, he will wake up when Denmark is in danger. If Valery is not difficult, then he can continue the cycle well, at least from him. And I would really like to continue, maybe our heroes will fall into these stories?
    1. VLR
      18 August 2021 06: 47
      A series of articles has been written about our heroes. Among them - and articles about the wives of Russian heroes and Serpents and monsters of Russian epics. Read if you missed it.
      This is a link to the article about Snakes (the last one), at the end (below) you can find links to other articles:
      1. +7
        18 August 2021 07: 29
        Thank you, most likely missed, there is not always time to read. Work....
        1. +11
          18 August 2021 09: 17
          The first part of the article also mentions Ogier Danish
          "Song of Roland" has been extremely popular in Europe for several centuries. Its variants are known in fifteen languages. In later times, prosaic texts appeared, and so complicated that they even described Roland's childhood, his first love - episodes that had nothing to do with the battle.
          In Spain, the plot has completely changed - in one of the later versions, not Roland, but Karl himself is defeated. In Denmark, the first role is played by the knight Ogier-Dane, one of the minor heroes in the French version ...
          In a word, great literary works have a great destiny.
          1. +10
            18 August 2021 09: 31
            There are tons of sequels, prequels and addons.
          2. +10
            18 August 2021 09: 40
            Somehow in the very beginning of the 90s I read "Three Hearts and Three Lions" by Paul Anderson, about Holger the Dane, started looking for the main character for something from reality, not from fantasy. Then it was problematic, now of course the information you want. Holger lived a rather interesting life, but at that time it was a completely natural course of events. Although to rebel against Karl himself, you have to be a very brave person.
      2. +6
        18 August 2021 11: 50
        Valery, thank you, smile
        Reading the description of the poem for some reason I could not help laughing, then I got to "Actually" and understood everything. good
        There is one question left, you do not have any thoughts about this unit - "... some kind of Malprose regiment." Or the fantasies of the author of the poem simply had no boundaries?
    2. +11
      18 August 2021 09: 37
      "Holger the Dane"

      I will support, the character is extremely interesting.
      Thanks for the article, I read it with pleasure!
  3. VLR
    18 August 2021 06: 55
    The next, by the way, will be an extremely interesting (in my opinion) article "Hernan Cortez and the kingdom of bloody horror"
    1. +7
      18 August 2021 07: 06
      Quote: VlR
      The next, by the way, will be an extremely interesting (in my opinion) article "Hernan Cortez and the kingdom of bloody horror"

      Too big a time jump. Aren't there any “heroes”? Maybe it makes sense to return to the heroes of northern sagas, or eastern fairy tales? !!!
  4. +13
    18 August 2021 06: 59
    Thanks to the author, lovely miniatures. This was probably one of the first comics.
    1. +12
      18 August 2021 08: 54
      This was probably one of the first comics.
      I think the Bayeux carpet is older.
    2. +13
      18 August 2021 08: 55
      lovely miniatures
      Let me join you - it becomes more pleasant to read the material when it is perfectly illustrated! For this, the authors (who are not lazy to search for miniatures, photographs, etc.) separate Muchas gracias and vielen Dank from grateful readers!
    3. +13
      18 August 2021 09: 15
      By the way, the illustrations are really outstanding. I mean the ones on the beige paper. Has the paper darkened with time?
      Just look at the grace and ease of the postures of people, at the facial expressions that convey the finest shades of feelings, intentions and moods ... And horses! No difficulty in transmitting their movement. In the last article, one of the illustrations even gives a top view of a horse, and the artist knows how it should look.
      1. +8
        18 August 2021 09: 47
        Quote: depressant
        By the way, the illustrations are really outstanding. I mean the ones on the beige paper. Has the paper darkened with time?

        Hello, Lyudmila Yakovlevna! It seemed to me that it, in general, looks more like fabric. Something like a tapestry.
      2. +6
        18 August 2021 11: 07
        And the horses!

        Yes, horses are definitely like horses. wink bully
        1. +7
          18 August 2021 11: 21
          Yes, horses are definitely like horses.

          Kostya, your humor is clear:
          small head, too fat body of a horse that took up all the space on the left. But check out the proportions and movement of the horses on the right! Something I do not remember in the subsequent, and even modern painting, such ease and accuracy in the transfer of complex motor activity of the horse. More and more reared under the great horsemen, now grazing. In general, everything is static.
          1. +6
            18 August 2021 11: 28
            Good afternoon, Luda. smile
            I don’t want to argue, but the middle figure is missing not only the head of the rider, but also the legs of the horse.
            And about more modern painting:
            1. +6
              18 August 2021 11: 46
              Quote: Sea Cat
              I don’t want to argue, but the middle figure is missing not only the head of the rider, but also the legs of the horse.

              Well, the head is present separately from the rider. About horse legs - not critical! The question is, where are the tails?
              By the way, I have no limit of indignation, where there is at least one image of a cat !!!
              1. +6
                18 August 2021 11: 58
                The question is, where are the tails?

                Tails, bastards, docked! negative

                And the cat simply did not ripen to the start of the battle, the mare limped, if it were not for everyone it would be a kirdyk.

            2. +4
              18 August 2021 12: 05
              Good afternoon, Kostya!)))
              The middle horse has its legs tucked under it! She fell so hard! )))
              As for the picture you have cited, here the horses are images, symbols. Under the rider, the white so-called funeral horse, symbolizing life - he died. But it was not a black funeral horse, carrying away to the afterlife, soared over the horseman lying on the ground - the chestnut!
              By this, the artist wants to show that the warrior has a hope of staying alive. It is unlikely, of course, that he will have time to jump up and saddle this horse, he is seized by both fear and hope, he seems to understand what kind of a sign he has been given. The horse with its dangerous movement, as it were, orders: lie down, do not move, you will live.
              I agree, the horse is shown in a complex movement. But that grace, smoothness of lines, ease, which are observed in the discussed illustrations, is still not there.
              1. +5
                18 August 2021 12: 35
                The horse falls on its side, not on its knees; below, colleague Alexander explained in stages what could be happening there in dynamics.
                And in the picture that I posted, a completely maddened horse rushes across the battlefield, and a person lying on the ground is simply afraid that she will hit him on the crown with a hoof. And no mysticism, just the blood and dirt of war, no matter how the painters try to portray it beautifully. request
                1. +5
                  18 August 2021 12: 57
                  But I do not agree with you! wassat )))
                  We do not live in the concepts of ancient culture now. And in those days, enlightened people lived in them. The symbols of past ages were their way of thinking. Especially in the fine arts. Until the 20th century. Remember "Bathing the Red Horse" by Petrov-Vodkin.
                  1. +5
                    18 August 2021 13: 17
                    Remember "Bathing the Red Horse" by Petrov-Vodkin.

                    So what? A red horse as a symbol of the invincibility of the Reds, or a hint that the Reds also like to swim?
                    "- Semyonov, will you have vodka?
                    - Vodka? I will have vodka. "(C)
                    1. +3
                      18 August 2021 14: 15
                      There are various interpretations of this picture.
                      But one thing is certain. Petrov-Vodkin was fascinated by religious painting, and this determined his style, including the style of the painting "Bathing the Red Horse". Here you can see the imprint of both the Novgorod icon painting adored by him, and the manner of the famous Italian artist of the early Renaissance Paolo Uccello. The face of the young man is like an icon-painting face, and his elongated body, thin, graceful fingers, the space of the lake with rigid folds of raised waves - all this reproduces the style of paintings in Italy of the XNUMXth century.
                      The painting "Bathing the Red Horse" was painted in 1912!

                      The red horse is a classic animal "not of this world", on which sits either George the Victorious, which can be seen on many icons, or Michael the Archangel. And then it turns out that a graceful young man on a horse has to do not so much with the earth as with the sky, which is understandable based on the artist's cosmogonistic ideas about the world.
                      But in a surprising way, the picture blended into historical events. At first, Petrov-Vodkin was convinced that it was he who foresaw the First World War. And then he was convinced that the picture was a prediction of the October Revolution. He consistently agreed with each of the statements, because he himself did not understand what forced him to paint such a picture. It means that with his hand, squeezing a hand, God led him, who himself plans and implements events.
                      1. +6
                        18 August 2021 14: 31
                        ... because he himself did not understand what forced him to paint such a picture.

                        All this is "bread" for critics and art critics, for all those who cannot create anything themselves, but are literate enough to grind with their tongues. Luda, this is not your address at all. In my youth, I had a friend, a photographer, (namely an artist) and, once, he invited our entire company to an exhibition in the Manezh, where his works were also exhibited. So, we are standing on the sidelines, and next to his large photograph there is a crowd and some imposing "master" with a kitty broadcasts what the artist saw and what he wanted to show. Lyoshka stood and stood and suddenly said: "Yes, I didn’t see anything and didn’t want to, the lighting just seemed good. Let's go out of here to drink vodka, otherwise I’ll vomit from this verbiage."
                        And we went to drink, though not vodka, but wine.
                        And Lyokha, by the way, had the first prize at the Paris exhibition for shooting at the BAM. smile
                      2. +3
                        18 August 2021 18: 22
                        The face of the young man is like an iconographic face
            3. +5
              18 August 2021 12: 25
              Quote: Sea Cat

              I don’t want to argue, but the middle figure is missing not only the head of the rider, but also the legs of the horse.

              There is nothing surprising here, a war horse (mare) could stumble, sometimes they fall when the horse tries to get up from a lying position, turning from its side, picks up its legs (like a lying cat) then throws its left / right leg forward, pushes back with support on front.
              In my opinion, the picture depicts a combat episode, when the war horse of the rider (Moor) depicted in the picture stumbled in the middle, lost its speed, began to rise, at this time the rider depicted on the right overtook him, cut off his head in one motion, stripes from the cut off head to the hilt sword show movement (as in comics).
          2. +7
            18 August 2021 11: 30
            Something I do not remember in the subsequent, and modern painting, such ease and accuracy in the transfer of the complex motor activity of a horse

            It is very difficult, I agree. The horse was specialized in the image. There was such a Russian artist Sverchkov. Here he was doki in horses like Aivazovsky in the image of the sea.
            1. +7
              18 August 2021 11: 32
              I wanted to show another picture

              Then there was no photography and talent is needed to portray in movement.
            2. +4
              18 August 2021 12: 14
              Just yesterday I watched a number of videos with purebred black horses. Inexpressible grace! How they move! As if barely touching the ground. Absolute perfection!
              And by the way.
              Pay attention to the people in the illustrations. These are not the people who would later be called the "potato eaters" that we see in the paintings of Vincent Van Gogh. It's all white bone and blue blood, graceful gentlemen)))
    4. +6
      18 August 2021 09: 39
      Quote: mr.ZinGer
      This was probably one of the first comics.

      Judging by the plate elements of the protection of arms and legs, this "comic" was created in the XIV century, i.e. it is clearly younger than the "demob album" from Bayeux (XNUMXth century).
      1. +6
        18 August 2021 10: 03
        created in the XIV century,
        Judging by the sketches from different angles, even later.
        Igor! hi
        1. +3
          18 August 2021 11: 07
          By the way, yes. The behavior of horses, even in the late Renaissance, does not fit. Rather early baroque.
          1. Fat
            18 August 2021 12: 05
            hi Lyudmila Yakovlevna. Come on. In terms of composition, this is the twentieth century - not earlier. With antique styling.
            1. +2
              18 August 2021 12: 21
              Andrei Borisovich, are you going to joke in any way? )))
              Or do you have reasons for such confidence?
              1. Fat
                18 August 2021 12: 36
                I'm not joking, although I can be wrong. The ornament is embarrassing.
                1. +3
                  18 August 2021 13: 04
                  By the way.
                  Here is such an image of trees I happened to meet on some Persian miniatures. Instead of a straight trunk - squiggle and leaves on it. As if the trunk was bent and the top was forced to grow into the soil.
                  And what about the ornament? No matter how I twisted the screen, I couldn't really see my phone.
                  1. Fat
                    18 August 2021 17: 35
                    I'm just interested in the work of contemporary illustrators. the use of ornament immediately sets you up for a skeptical mood. In this case, even the state of the burlap and the clarity of the images suggests a "remake", although it doesn't matter. "The Song" has long become immortal
                    1. +1
                      18 August 2021 17: 48
                      Oh, and a hurricane started outside my windows. The howl of the wind is low, ominous, the gusts bend the trees. For some reason it's scary. There was no such thing before, it was raining, well, okay, even if it was pouring. And now ... Here comes the storm. It was like approaching gunfire, echoing and continuous hum. This was not the case either.
                      1. Fat
                        18 August 2021 18: 02
                        Don't worry too much. In our vast country, periodically either the forest is on fire or the cities are drowning. Yes, the truth is when I learned that the Siberian fire victims were allocated as much as 30 thousand. Yes, I have no such words .. There is nothing at all. Even the forest burned down ...
                      2. +2
                        18 August 2021 19: 38
                        I looked at Yakutia.
                        30 thousand are given to the registered. What is meant? The authorities promise to rebuild the houses of the fire victims. They will rebuild. Having mastered the budget. There they allocated some crumbs from the federals - 89 million, and hundreds of houses were burnt down.
                        People complain: the forest service has been reduced, there are no foresters, there is no one to look after the forest, the equipment of the Ministry of Emergency Situations is old, far from the required quantity, there is no one to mow the grass around the forest, everyone has left for the cities, and those that remain do not provide fertility due to despondency and hopelessness of existence - who will look after the grass? No one!
                        But I observed fires in Yakutia. I have already spoken about this. The hearths are separate, located not far from each other, and they do not begin in the fields at all, they are in the forest! As if someone was walking on a compass, then deviating 50 meters from the direction deep into the forest, then 100 meters, walked and set fire to, and set fire ...
                        And we got such a winding line, dotted with foci, like dots on a gentle sinusoid, from which white smoke stretches parallel to each other in the western direction. Days later, all this merged into a single fiery front, preserving the original line of arson - all the same, wavy ...
                        In general, abandoned land, taiga, everything is abandoned. But Manilov's plans for the construction of innovation centers in the Siberian taiga are unfolding. The first is in the Minusinsk Basin. They cannot keep what they have.
                        And then I had another suggestion. Khakassians and all small adjacent peoples, unlike the Russians, do not leave Siberia! A bet will be placed on them. The Russians are too European, and these are archaic. The state will support it by definition. Well, let them! Let hopes feed our aged youths from the authorities. However, they rather save themselves than they are going to save someone.
            2. +1
              18 August 2021 22: 26
              Quote: Thick
              In terms of composition, this is the twentieth century - not earlier. With antique styling.

              Perhaps I will join your opinion. At first, in the morning, I could not understand what "strains" me in these "tapestries". And annoying: 1) The dissonance between the presence of texture in the background and its complete absence in the images. Anything! Images are absolutely smooth and textureless; 2) Knights, without exception, all without a helmet, and in battle scenes. It is very similar to the creation of a modern girl-designer, who has seen this "a thousand" times, in modern Hollywood films, and therefore is firmly convinced that, in those ancient times, everyone went on the attack just like that. )))
  5. +1
    18 August 2021 07: 01
    in the Ronseval Gorge, not only ordinary soldiers, but also the Archbishop of Reims and 12 peers of France died.

    to which only family feuds led ...
    1. +8
      18 August 2021 07: 19
      About times, about morals !!!

      It must be remembered that the Franks at that time were already Christians in the 7-8th generation. So the dagger for power, there was a seasoning in the country called "the stronghold of faith and good servants of the Lord." So Charlemagne was holding the cross with one hand - like a fighter against paganism, with the other a sword. Let us remember his allies and enemies, both of them could be both pagans and of the same faith.
      Family morals have already manifested themselves under his sons and grandchildren. It can be said with irony that the first "European Union" fell because of the greed of its children and grandchildren. However, analogies can be traced with all early feudal states: Great Moravia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Great Serbia and Ancient Russia.
      1. +7
        18 August 2021 08: 14
        It must be remembered that the Franks at that time were already Christians in the 7-8th generation.
        Saint Remigius would not agree.
      2. +6
        18 August 2021 08: 23
        Feudal fragmentation in Russia is also associated with economic reasons, the importance of the trade route from the "Varangians to the Greeks" is declining. And when a new danger arose - the Polovtsians, Russia united again. The danger disappeared, again confusion and vacillation.
        1. +4
          18 August 2021 08: 53
          The economy, both in France and in Russia, is a secondary factor in comparison with the aspects of the collapse of the tribal society and the ambitions of the heirs of the table in Kiev!
          1. +5
            18 August 2021 09: 46
            So these ambitions are connected with the economic factor. Oleg, the Prophet, not for imposture killed Askold and Dir, but that would not interfere with controlling such an important path. And further strife confirm this. Prince Vladimir Krasno Solnyshko, being a Novgorod prince, began a struggle for the Kiev throne with the Kiev prince Yaropolk, Yaroslav the Wise (this later), also being a Novgorod prince, went the same way. The confrontation between Yaroslav the Wise and Mstislav the Brave is of interest, they divided Russia along the Dnieper, one the right bank of the Dnieper, the other the left. At the same time, the chronicler writes that the people of Kiev did not accept Mstislav, we only want Yaroslav, they told him. Mstislav was upset, but did not use force. Most likely, Mstislav received a "small share" from the income received from the "path from the Varangians to the Greeks", and for this he had to support Yaroslav in his possible military campaigns, which actually happened later ...
            1. +5
              18 August 2021 10: 37
              Dear Danil, if you consider the burglar thief caught stealing the TV, that he committed a crime for economic reasons, then you are certainly right!
              I am operating at the "macroeconomic" level. So events at the level of “I desired the land and your wife” are not “economics”, but “political everyday life”. In fact, even "polyudye" is a process closer to everyday life "you are our cow, we milk you." Since the enrichment takes place the prince's squads and pancakes. The economy begins to be traced with the formation of statehood, with the emergence of a "courtyard" and not a "squad". I personally attribute the beginning of the formation of state institutions to the end of the reign of Princess Olga. She set up "churchyards", and her son and his retinue "in the old fashioned way" fed on the side.
              Eduard Vyaschenko attributes - the starting point two centuries later, the rest "mold" it between these dates. The layman acts easier, some are talking about the "star temple", others about the Ruso-Aryans, and still others from the vocation of Rurik. Russian history textbooks for the school define this date as the seizure of Kiev by ruler Oleg.
              Curious about the opinion of the Author of "The Lay of Igor's Campaign," he says about Igor the old? By the way, the church dates the appearance of the Old Russian state from the moment of baptism.
              If the PVL believes, then the economic component in favor of not herself personally, but the country is shown by Princess Olga when she asks her son to defend Kiev from the Polovtsy. The poverty-stricken economy appears on the pages of the story only during the time of Vladimir. They were, however, the first to receive the "Russian truth" law, privileges and guarantees.
              Well, somewhere like that!
              1. +4
                18 August 2021 12: 32
                I do not argue with you. smile But I’m not talking about this, I wrote about the struggle to control the trade route. A simple example, the Crusades, the ideological component, the liberation of the Holy Sepulcher, real, control of trade routes, penetration to the East. Svyatoslav fed on the side? The plans were grandiose, as he said there why it is not pleasant to sit in Kiev, but in Pereyaslavets it is better. Silver from the Czech Republic, horses from Hungary, other nishtyaks from Byzantium, etc. that is, this city is a bustling trading place, not like Kiev.
  6. +12
    18 August 2021 07: 16
    The tale is a lie, but there is a hint in it, a lesson for the proud fellows.
    Here is a good example of propaganda, how to make a heroic battle out of defeat. Thermopylae are resting.
    1. +13
      18 August 2021 08: 49
      Perhaps, at the behest of Charlemagne himself, a kind of processing of this material began almost immediately: military defeat rose to selfless martyrdom, the religion of the attackers changed from Christian (as it really was) to Muslim (at the same time, the fact that these attackers were more likely to defend their land from a foreign army). All this turned the shameful military defeat into the success of political propaganda. And why exactly Roland (Hruodlandus, Rothlan- dus), and not other fallen from among the nobility? Maybe because he was a favorite and even a nephew .. Here Kiniska was remembered for some reason. The same one whose "fathers and brothers were Spartan kings" and who "I am the only woman in Greece who won this wreath." no one remembers now, well, they did not have fathers and brothers of tsars, and no one sang them in epics and poems. And Roland was sung, and his image becomes so idealized that even now, when this name is mentioned, concepts come to mind " honor "," loyalty to the king "and" selfless courage "..
      1. +8
        18 August 2021 10: 47
        Quote: SERGE ant
        that even now, when this name is mentioned, the concepts of "honor", "loyalty to the king" and "selfless courage" come to mind ..

        I can’t resist - "including stupidity." I remember the lessons in the 7th grade, I clearly understood, well, what for to die if there is a whistle? Although "song" is a "song", it is not a fact that Roland played the horn continuously, and Karl fumigated at this time with a "shoulder blade of lamb" and therefore did not rush to help his nephew. Someone who, but 13 noble pieces of land (Roland and peers) fell into his pocket!
  7. +11
    18 August 2021 07: 19
    Good morning! )))
    Hopefully the whole day will be just as kind compared to yesterday.
    Thank you Valery for the irony - he trampled himself off from the heart! ))
    On the other hand, if the entire rearguard fell, how do you know how Roland behaved in relation to the signal horn? Could he drop it? Could Roland have been wounded or killed immediately and therefore could not give the signal?
    1. +11
      18 August 2021 09: 14
      Anything could have happened there, very little reliable information has survived. One thing is clear - the battle took place in the evening of August 15, 778, and then there is room for interpretations and assumptions. Presumably, in the evening gloom Roland notices a small detachment of enemies on foot, armed with short spears and knives (this is the only detail about the weapons of the attackers preserved in the Saxon chronicles). Perhaps these are just local robbers? Suspending the rearguard, Roland, at the head of a strong detachment of knights, rushes at them to drive them away from the convoy. And at this moment, from all the surrounding rocks, a large foot army unexpectedly falls on the rearguard. In a matter of minutes, the Franks are surrounded, they are poured with arrows and attacked with spears from all sides. Realizing that the situation is hopeless, Roland tries to "shout" to the main forces - blows a horn. This detail of the "Song" can again be considered reliable: the horn is a standard signal to attack, retreat, alert and request for help. Karl hears this call and deploys the main forces to the rearguard, but by the time he arrives on the battlefield, the Franks are almost completely destroyed. Roland himself died, and many noble knights. The Basques, presumably, having pretty much robbed the train, are leaving in perfect order. Eingard in the biography of Karl reports that "It was not possible to punish them"... Modern researchers estimate the number of Franks under the leadership of Hruodland at several (some believe that even up to 15) thousand (a huge number for that time) people - almost all of them died, which explains the shock experienced by the Franks after the defeat at the hands of the Basques, who were then considered almost savages.
      1. +10
        18 August 2021 09: 25
        Yes, they say different things.
        For example, having heard the sounds of a horn, Karl decided that Roland was indulging, they say, you know him, you should not take it seriously. I got worried when I heard the second call. And only when the rearguard did not even send a messenger, then Karl began to stir.
        There was some meanness in this, which later was embodied in a version, they say, this crazy fool Roland did not give a signal!
  8. +7
    18 August 2021 07: 29
    About the custom of knights to faint - enchanting, I did not know this. This can be seen and distinguished real aristocrats, and the commoner, at the sight of his dead brother, became enraged and his strength increased much! Well, what can you do if blue blood and a sensual vulnerable nature ... The article is certainly a plus.
    1. +5
      18 August 2021 10: 55
      Well, you know, when you are wearing heavy armor, the southern heat and you have just passed a dangerous gorge, the blood pressure has already risen unacceptably, at least for some, and then there is the spectacle of a massive "separation" of the area, and among these corpses there could be you , then the weak are quite capable of losing consciousness from an overabundance of impressions, mental stress and, as a result, a sharp jump in pressure.
      Here, for example, I am. At the sight of blood and a crippled dead body I do not faint, but the pain goes all over my skin - unbearable! It's good that it passes quickly. Each has its own reaction to corpses.

      By the way, I was always surprised by the reaction of the American police to the corpses or if the criminal was dying, namely vomiting. I watched films and did not believe - a policeman, according to my rather primitive ideas, should be strong. But I've seen this in my life. From a sharp rise in pressure, people are drawn to vomit without any sight of corpses.
      And the other day in a neighboring Khrushchevka a woman died like this. She lost consciousness, they tried to put nitroglycerin under her tongue, it didn't work, until the ambulance arrived, nothing could be done. A sharp surge in pressure, and that's it.
      The knights would come to their senses later - and that is already good wassat )))
      1. +3
        18 August 2021 11: 08
        southern heat
        Lyudmila Yakovlevna hi
        Mid-August, spurs of the Pyrenees, the Late Antique Little Ice Age happened 3 centuries ago ... What heat ???
        1. +2
          18 August 2021 12: 42
          And such a heat)))
          He went into the shadows, the oak grove sneaks. He went out into the sun, baked right there. Due to the fact that there was a small ice age, the latitude of the area did not change.
          However, I will not argue. All this is my speculation. I just figure it out this way and that, trying to explain something to myself.
          Probably, the knights still possessed supersensitivity. Either she was canon for some reason; the ability to faint at the right time is a sign of sophisticated manners. It does not work out in a natural way - pretend!
          But Roland's fiancee did die after receiving the news of his death.
          It seems to me that it was a time that we cannot even imagine. Some kind of special tension of the social background. After all, no one, for example, counted how many people died from heart attacks and strokes in the dashing years of mankind. Now, God forbid, they will declare war with some neighbor, I assure you, demographics will respond with a sharp decline.
  9. +7
    18 August 2021 08: 11
    The author, as always, got carried away.
    What's this? Précieuse !? "Cutesy", "artsy" and so on? Original. Well, okay, let's say that the French heard some kind of phrase unknown to us in Arabic.

    Précieuse - translated from French - precious, priceless.
    Apparently, because the phrase "dementia and courage" was the real (albeit unofficial) motto of this knight.

    Roland's unofficial motto was "il faut toujours avancer et jamais reculer" - always go forward and never back down.
    1. +9
      18 August 2021 08: 45
      In 778, one of the emirs of the Iberian Peninsula, who was waging a grueling war with his Cordoba "colleague", decided to seek help from the Frankish ruler Charles (the Great). For military assistance, he promised to give him Zaragoza, but he forgot to ask the opinion of the inhabitants of this city (or maybe it was immediately conceived?).
      In general, they did not want to open the gates in front of Karl. After spinning around and realizing that he was deceived, Karl went to his homeland.

      Suleiman al-Arabi, wali of Barcelona and Girona, was not supposed to ask the opinion of the inhabitants of Zaragoza, it did not interest anyone at that time. Saragossa had its own wali - Hussein ibn Yahya al-Ansari, with whom Suleiman al-Arabi agreed.
      But the East is a delicate matter, and when Karl, together with al-Arabi, who joined him, approached Zaragoza, Hussein, "taking into account the changed situation," refused to open the gate.
      Charlemagne chained Suleiman in chains and laid siege to the city. After a month's siege, Hussein paid the ransom and the siege was lifted.
      By the way, Hussein ibn Yahya did not benefit from such a "multi-vector approach," his head was finally cut off.
      1. +1
        18 August 2021 18: 27
        "multi-vector" did not benefit "in general" multi-vector "is very tempting, but also very risky: you can always make a mistake: who to bet on. Remember: Stevenson:" Black Arrow "?
        Colleagues, who remembers vivid examples of "multi-vector approach" with a happy ending?
    2. +3
      18 August 2021 18: 34
      "the author, as always, got carried away" Viktor Nikolaevich, usually you treat the authors more harshly.
      Did you like Valery's story yourself?
  10. +9
    18 August 2021 08: 30
    one of the emirs of the Iberian Peninsula, who waged a grueling war with his Cordoba "colleague"
    It was Suleiman ibn Yaqzan Ibn al-Arabi (when Ibn Mu'awiyah shared power with Abdurahman I) who sent a delegation to Charlemagne in Paderborn. Suleiman offered him obedience and loyalty to Hussein from Saragossa and Abu Taura from Huesca in exchange for military assistance, the army of Charles The Great crossed the Pyrenees and approached Saragossa in 778, where everything immediately went wrong, and Charles decided to return to his kingdom, taking with him several noble prisoners, including Suleiman, whose children (Aisun al-Arabi and Matruh al-Arabi) succeeded to achieve (probably simply by buying back) the release of his father. Suleiman returned to Zaragoza, where in 780 he was killed by his "old friend and ally" Hussein. When the army moved north, according to good old tradition, the city of Vascon was sacked along the way, so Pierre de Marc (January 24, 1594 - June 29, 1662, French bishop and historian) suggested that the leader of the attackers was the Duke of Vasconia, Lup II, who probably decided to act according to the principle "where to make money, to return what is yours." So this, or the Basques decided to act on the principle of "rob the loot", or the comrades united - in any case, there were no Saracen Moors there, of course, among the attackers.
  11. +5
    18 August 2021 08: 35
    In general, this whole venture with the passage of the rearguard through the gorge looks mysterious to me. Having failed (the gates of Saragossa were still unopened), Charles's troops moved home and on the way back sacked Pamplona, ​​the city of the Basques - it was not for nothing that they went on a campaign, with a black sheep even a tuft of wool! And then we moved through the gorge. Still in the Basque land. The very Basques, who at first missed Charles's army and even supplied him with goat cheese and did not suppose in any way a trash on the part of Charles in the form of plundering Pamplona when returning from a failed campaign. Was it possible to expect revenge from the locals in the form of an attack in the gorge? Can. It has always been that way. History knows many examples when attacks in gorges, even with small forces, were successful.
    Then it turns out like this.
    Either Karl was a bad tactician or a good one. Based on the latter, he sent Roland's detachment to reconnaissance. In this case, the main symbol of this whole strange story is the horn, which for some reason was not sounded. And this lack of a prescribed action winds up human passions, character traits, life episodes, and all this is wrapped in a knightly cloak of heroism, covering up the fact of a violation of the military regulations and failure to fulfill a tactical task.
    It also looks like the rearguard was deliberately sacrificed. They say, they will kill the rearguard and leave, the way will be open.
    1. +4
      18 August 2021 09: 15
      The rearguard is a unit that covers the departure / withdrawal of the main forces. That is, in this case, "the path is already open" and Charles's army has already left.
      1. +4
        18 August 2021 09: 29
        The rearguard is continuously conducting reconnaissance in order to identify the composition, grouping and direction of movement of enemy troops. In the Navy, the rearguard was called the end squadron or a group of ships in battle formations (respectively, the fleet or squadron), which followed at some distance from the main forces for their protection from the rear.
        1. +3
          18 August 2021 09: 39
          Well Duc is correct "terminal squadron "," for guarding from the rear"... In this case, the rearguard protects the rear of Karl's army, which means that Karl's army goes ahead and sacrificing the rearguard, Karl could not open any way.
      2. +4
        18 August 2021 10: 04
        I clarified again. You are right, colleague! And there is. This was not the avant-garde. So Karl really didn't want to come back, very much. As a result, all the rear protection was lost. Why, then, were such important persons included in it - almost everyone who was? What was the intent behind this? The important ones are usually included in the middle.
        1. +6
          18 August 2021 11: 03
          Quote: depressant
          Why, then, were such important persons included in it - almost everyone who was?

          Well, you never know ... maybe at the royal councils the truth was carried without thinking. It is not too political to execute them, but they fell heroically in battle. It happens:)))
          1. +5
            18 August 2021 11: 12
            Good morning, Ivan!)))
            Here! After clarifying the arrangement of all the persons on the stage, this is the first thing that came to my mind, namely, the clever utilization of obvious and possible opposition. Don't just fold the state! wassat )))
  12. +5
    18 August 2021 09: 02
    The defeat in the Ronseval Gorge did not affect the glory of chivalry, while Ronseval inspired the minstrels to compose one of the best works of the Middle Ages.
  13. +4
    18 August 2021 09: 05
    And "Song of Roland" is a vivid example of political propaganda, when the population needs to be distracted from the failure of the reigning person, noisily and loudly replacing failure, both military and political, in the minds of people with an episode of Roland's supposedly outstanding heroism. This is so that no accusations are brought against the true culprit of an ineffective campaign. Distract ordinary minds, turn the arrows to the irrelevant, turn defeat into victory, find the extreme, punish them "justly", raise their spirits and increase self-esteem, and so on. And if someone says something about the king himself, it will be tantamount to an attempt on Roland's impeccability - who dares after such a scale of the propaganda campaign!
    1. +1
      18 August 2021 18: 13
      Lyudmila Yakovlevna, that this is agitational propaganda, in the style of Goebbels: "the more incredible the lie, the more they will believe" this is indisputable.
      It is also undeniable that the author was talented
  14. +3
    18 August 2021 09: 12
    "Among them were the Slavs and separately the Rus, Do you, Pechenegs, Canaanites, Persians, Jews, Avars, Huns, Nubians, Negroes and many others. "

    Something I did not find in the poem. Or does Livami mean the Libyans or someone else?
    1. VLR
      18 August 2021 10: 17
      Well, why, there are Livs there. It lists, probably, all the enemies of the then "European Union":
      "Of livs regiment of the seventh and the Atrimonians ".
      "Nubians, rusov he brought him to the third regiment.
      Borussians and Slavs - in the fourth regiment.
      Sorabs, Serbs - his fifth regiment.
      They take Armenians and Moors to the sixth regiment, "
      The Rus here are clearly the "Ar-Rus people", the Normans who attacked Seville in 844.
      Next - the ferocious uglich.
      Prusy and Slovenes.
      Samuel tribe,
      Kurds, blacks and so on.
      1. -1
        18 August 2021 14: 35
        I do not find this in the poem itself. What verse is this?
        1. VLR
          18 August 2021 14: 56
          CCXXXI, CCXXXII, CCXXXIII - listing in progress.
          Here, for example, there is:

          In other versions of the translation, too.
          1. 0
            18 August 2021 15: 34
            Thank you, I found it. Hmm, there is no exact translation in the original "de Leus" and this word. Why is it not clear in the Russian version of "Liva" and who was meant by these "de Leus" too ...
  15. +4
    18 August 2021 10: 23
    And like some strange time shift. A colleague Ulrih led me to a correct understanding of the situation.
    And then the feeling of déjà vu came.
    The latter are abandoned. The whole history of wars is about how the latter are abandoned.

    Sometimes this is dictated by circumstances and sad but reasonable necessity. And the shocked descendants compose about abandoned legends and songs.
    How sad it all is!
  16. +11
    18 August 2021 10: 26
    Greetings, colleagues. hi
    For me, "Song" and the battle, e, as a historical event should be considered completely separately.
    Battle: the keyword is not "horn", not "Roland", not "rearguard" or "revenge" but "train". smile The Basques let the main forces through, cut off the baggage train, killed the guards, stole the spoils and quickly dumped. War is a pragmatic business. For that time, robbery is an integral part of it, often meaning. For the wild Basques, it definitely makes sense.
    "Song": something like a panegyric of the aristocracy of the tenth century, written with the aim of emphasizing the importance and gentility of certain families. The song lists the nobles who lived, on average, two hundred years later, but approximately at the same time. It's nice to read that your ancestors fought under the banner of Charlemagne himself, but it's especially nice when your colleagues in dangerous business read about it. Respect, again ...
    Well, the glorification of knightly valor - not intelligence and caution, prudence and sanity, but courage, loyalty, strength - those qualities that are so valued by the rulers in their subjects, and which are so rare among themselves. smile
    The work is significant, of course.
    1. +3
      18 August 2021 13: 58
      Battle: the keyword is not "horn", not "Roland", not "rearguard" or "revenge" but "train".

      Quite right. All the gold received in the form of a ransom and all the loot was in the wagon train.
    2. +2
      18 August 2021 18: 05
      Michael! hi
      I have a question. Who from Bastard's entourage do you associate with the characters of "The Song"?
      1. +2
        18 August 2021 19: 07
        Bastard - at least the XNUMXth century, and we are talking about the XNUMXth century, when France was captured by the Capetian people and, I think, both themselves and their supporters needed a "legitimization", or something ... Sacralization, maybe ... The song definitely mentioned Robert the Old, it seems, Bastard's great-grandfather, someone from the Angevin dynasty, now there is no way to refresh. This is in the comments to the Soviet edition of the song, you can find it on the net. I don’t remember. But one of the Robertines was still, kind of like ...
        1. +2
          18 August 2021 19: 18
          Now I ran briefly through the Dukes of Normandy and realized that I did not mean Robert, but Richard and not Old, but, it seems, Fearless. laughing
          It's a mess in my head, I'm busy with others, I beg your pardon ...
        2. +1
          18 August 2021 19: 19
          Hugo Capet is still the "anointed of God". His descendants have lost everything they can.
          1. +1
            18 August 2021 20: 32
            From what? Some Philippi were very intelligent. smile
            1. +1
              18 August 2021 20: 47
              Only one, which is August. You can also remember Saint Louis.
              1. +1
                18 August 2021 22: 11
                And Handsome? Long, too, was a smart fellow.
                1. +1
                  19 August 2021 05: 50
                  Philip the Handsome is an extraordinary and controversial personality. Directly I associate with the beginning of the decline of the Middle Ages.
                  What is the business of Philip Long?
                  1. +1
                    19 August 2021 11: 03
                    Philip Long? Well, sources agree that he was a very intelligent monarch and at the same time very active. To judge his deeds directly, you need to delve deeply into the topic. The Salic law passed by him overshadows his main affairs related to the restoration of order in the state.
                    And in general - in vain you roll a barrel on the Capetian. If you look completely objectively and impartially, then the state headed by Hugo Capet (Paris and a bunch of independent lands around) and the state received by Philippe Valois is centralized, rich and strong, with a regulated vertical of power, a developed tax system and a powerful army.
                    The Carolingians dismissed the empire of Charlemagne to shreds first, then their own kingdoms, the Capetian, just gathered at least France into something single, the Valois only managed to preserve this unity and then with great difficulty ...
                    So they were normal guys.
                    Well, as for Philip the Fair, in my opinion, he is an outstanding ruler not only against the background of representatives of his dynasty, but also against the background of the most capable monarchs of the Middle Ages in general.
                    1. +1
                      19 August 2021 11: 11
                      Michael! hi
                      I have a different opinion about the activities of the last Capetian. I am ready to present it, but not now, I do not like to write long texts online.
                      1. +1
                        19 August 2021 12: 56
                        From 8500 characters - already an article for VO. smile
                      2. +1
                        19 August 2021 13: 00
                        I think about this. First, I want to implement another project. Of course, according to the same European Middle Ages.
                      3. +1
                        19 August 2021 17: 55
                        We would like to have implemented it a long time ago ... smile
                        Excuses about the need to earn money, lack of time and energy can only deceive yourself. All the most worthy creative projects are implemented this way - if you need to make money and you don't have time and effort. The rest, which are financed and implemented by professionals, are no longer creativity, but a craft.
                      4. +1
                        19 August 2021 18: 05
                        Well, excuse me ... The idea was born a month and a half ago. The same "Priyutino" matured for 2 years ... The day after tomorrow I am conducting another excursion.
                        As for excuses and a creative impulse, unlike Van Gogh, my brother, with all his might, will not be able to support me.
                      5. 0
                        19 August 2021 19: 07
                        Contain - no, of course ...
                        Of course, it would be great, although personally to me the work of Van Gogh is absolutely alien, but it very rarely happens that the one who paid would refuse to order the tune. smile
                        So true creativity - free and independent - is possible only in between making money, instead of resting, drinking, sleeping. Or, if you are already a master and you don't give a damn about everything, and you are ready to put your reputation and money on the line, risking losing both - yes, then you can create for your own pleasure, regardless of the opinion of investors and even the opinion of "the most respectable public ". But this is certainly not about us. laughing
  17. +2
    18 August 2021 17: 04
    To the madness of the brave - discount wreaths .. laughing
  18. +2
    18 August 2021 18: 03
    Colleagues, Valery, good evening.
    Saddened for 2 reasons: 1) such a vivid poem has such a primitive basis. The commander of the Frankish column fell into a primitive trap.
    2) Valery, it's sad that the cycle is over. And now it is not known what and most importantly when next
    1. 0
      18 August 2021 18: 42
      Good evening, My Fair Stranger! hi
      1. All poems have a not very beautiful background. Remember how Ruslan and Lyudmila was created?
      2. How did it end? Valery continues to delight us with literary and historical research.
      1. 0
        18 August 2021 20: 51
        "what and when"? Until today, I knew that there would be a continuation, but I love the continuation of an interesting topic
  19. +1
    18 August 2021 20: 46
    "there are twenty thousand people without feelings * like muslin young ladies.
    Colleagues, have you ever wondered: why 14-15 year old girls of the 17th century often fainted, but now they don't?
    They were the victims of fashion: then corsets were in fashion and girls could not breathe deeply.
    The maid of honor of Maria de Medici had a waist of about 20 centimeters! I look at the waists of some of us, and it's hard to imagine that there were such waists
  20. 0
    18 August 2021 21: 11
    Only because Europe became the navel of the earth during the Renaissance and later, its ancient tales took on the character of the world-historical-literary-epic heritage.
    The very same historical episode is both unfortunate and stupid at the same time.
    Karl decided to fit into the local squabbles of the Pyrenean Muslims for one of the sides (this is a prominent promoter and interpreter of Christianity!), Not disinterestedly, of course. On the way, he plundered another side - the Basque mountaineers, who do not leave unanswered raids on themselves to this day.
    The Basques quite competently, in the spirit of guerrilla, did not climb to fight in the frontal, but quite in a guerrilla way organized an ambush, where many vassals close to Charles died, including the Count of the Breton mark Hruolond.
    Karl did it for the future, he directed his main further efforts to the east (Saxons, Polabian Slavs, Czechs, Avars-Huns), as well as to Italy, strengthening the papal throne, under his strict control, however.
    Yes, and then commanders from him were more powerful than Roland.
  21. +1
    19 August 2021 12: 21
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Good afternoon, Luda. smile
    I don’t want to argue, but the middle figure is missing not only the head of the rider, but also the legs of the horse.
    And about more modern painting:

    So everything is fine there, the horse has fallen, and his legs are bent. Which is displayed. And it is even very proportional. And he chopped off that head from top to bottom, which is much more convenient than swinging a piece of iron parallel to the ground.
  22. 0
    30 September 2021 16: 03
    Like this. They lost the war, the Christians were robbed, the rearguard was all drained, but in the verses everything was fine. And even Zaragossa surrendered, and the Moors were all baptized out of fear.

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