Limits were exceeded: the engine of the F-35 fighter needs modernization

Over the next decade, the Pentagon intends to modernize the F-35 fighter by introducing an arsenal of new weapons, computing technology and software.

These updates will make the aircraft a more combat-ready adversary as Russia and China implement their own improvements to fighters and air defense systems.

- noted in the publication Defense News.

At the same time, as explained by Jen Latka, vice president of engine company Pratt & Whitney, updating the power plant is not included in the list of works. According to him, already now it is necessary to think about increasing its power and cooling, as well as reducing operating costs, since the established limits have been exceeded:

The F135 engine is already operating beyond its specifications as new capabilities have been added to the F-35.

As the manager of the said company explains, the severity of the problem will increase when the Pentagon updates the F-35 using Refresh 3 technology (installing a new core processor, a memory unit and a panoramic cockpit display) and adds hardware and software capabilities as part of the Block 4 modification, which will increase the weight load and require more cooling of the aircraft.

Eric Fick, F-35 program manager for the Pentagon, admitted in July that the engine will require upgrades to accommodate technology as part of the fighter upgrade to Block 4. However, it is unclear whether the US Department of Defense will seek to improve the existing F135 design or move to a completely new powerplant. ... The Air Force is currently testing prototypes of three-flow adaptive motors built by Pratt & Whitney and General Electric.

Comments

[tralflot1832]

Does the Pentagon really think that someone can surpass the great and terrible penguin, that it thinks about its modernization. And then he will be able to fly? The best is the enemy of the good.

[JD1979]

Right now, I would be jerky when they themselves have problems with engines in all directions, with a microelectronic element base and up to a heap with specialists who are not enough everywhere.

[mitroha]

We adopted the Windows principle, improved it here, and eliminated it here. Buy a new one or buy an upgrade
And, yes, from the next version of the software this hardware will not be supported.

[Gardener91]

Quote: Mitroha

And, yes, from the next version of the software this hardware will not be supported.

Note that the Raptor on XP is probably very vulnerable according to experts. But he is subject to an export ban, even to his NATO friends.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Gardener91

Note that the Raptor on XP is probably very vulnerable according to experts.

No, not XP there - all the software is written in Fortran, in the great and mighty (amers don't have such specialists anymore). And the export ban on it acts as it was originally made as a wunderwaffe for itself and was not supposed to be exported ...

[Tsoy]

Buy a new one or buy an upgrade

I wonder how much the upgrade to Block 4 will cost for early series aircraft?

[Albert1988]

Quote: Choi

I wonder how much the upgrade to Block 4 will cost for early series aircraft?

It is unlikely that this will be possible - as far as is known, there are alterations in the airframe design. So just buy new ones)))) No, well, what divine gesheftmakers ?!

[Tsoy]

whether it will be possible - there, as far as we know, there are alterations in the airframe design. So only new ones to buy)))) No, well, what divine gesheftmakers

If so, then I agree about the level of divorce. Not a supporter of the opinion that the F-35 is rubbish, but it should be given credit for such a scheme. Raw, bare gliders were shipped to the Allies, and a completed improved design was shipped to themselves.

[Incvizitor]

The bird penguin is proud, until you kick it, it will not fly.

[Aaron Zawi]

I personally did not understand anything from the article.

[poquello]

Quote: Aaron Zawi

I personally did not understand anything from the article.

if you kick the engine, then the modernization is to blame, not the engine, and the modernization is needed because of the Chinese with the Russians, the Russians and the Chinese are to blame for the weak F35 engine, but in general "make contributions" to the new engine

[Do not care]

... by installing a new core processor,

Yes, there are often masterpieces. This is not for average minds.

[D16]

This is not for average minds.

Curve translation. The core of the engine is a gas generator.

[Andrey83]

I understand that a new processor will be installed in f35 and this will increase the mass of the aircraft so much that the engine will need to be upgraded ...

[Avior]

Give us urgent orders, you still want to get money

explains Jen Latka, vice president of engine company Pratt & Whitney

[Real Pilot]

We discussed the other day that the average flight time across the entire fleet of F-35s produced and operated exceeds 630 hours per flight.
It is clear that the early ones flew more than the new ones.
And the idea was expressed that half / a third of the aircraft are flying for overhaul and / or modernization.

And after that, the Pentagon started talking openly about replacing or modernizing engines known for overheating of turbine blades. And cooling is called a stumbling block. Plus we are talking about replacing key electronic components. Yes, and it is forbidden to go to supersonic without the need to go out because of the delicate anti-radar coatings.

That is, we were generally right here about the coming financial nightmare with the forced overhaul of this aircraft fleet. It is not surprising that the United States has not ordered new F-35s now - components and assemblies are needed to restore the airworthiness of the existing ones.
The mosaic begins to take shape.

At the same time, based on the article, money for new engines is not provided, these problems were not included in the already huge estimate ... That is, the financial trap for the penguin is becoming more and more threatening.

In general, here it is not even particularly embarrassing to rejoice in other people's problems, given that they dug this hole for our destruction.
But the conclusions must be drawn reasonably and calmly, so as not to fall into such a financial abyss after the "probable enemy".

[voyaka uh]

"there is no money for new engines," ///
----
The new engine will provide 10% more thrust with the same efficiency.
It will not enter Block-4 (production from next year),
but it will be financed at Block-5.
The F-35 is developing like the F-15, F-16.

[Alex777]

Quote: voyaka uh

The new engine will provide 10% more thrust with the same efficiency.

Can you tell us more about the new engine?
The parameters are too fantastic.
How will they be provided?
How good will Block 4 be without the new engine?

[OgnennyiKotik]

There are 2 of these engines in development, from 2 companies:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_XA101
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_XA100
Apparently they are already ready, since they began to knock out money.

Block - 4, a qualitative increase in the power of on-board computing systems, an increase in the size of compartments, new types of weapons. Naturally, they don't talk about all the updates.

[Alex777]

Quote: OgnennyiKotik

Block - 4, a qualitative increase in the power of on-board computing systems, an increase in the size of compartments, new types of weapons.

This is clear. My question is related to this:

Eric Fick, the Pentagon's F-35 program manager, admitted in July that the engine will require upgrades to accommodate technology as part of the fighter upgrade to Block 4.

In other words, does it make sense to introduce Block 4 without a new engine?

[OgnennyiKotik]

Quote: Alex777

In other words, does it make sense to introduce Block 4 without a new engine?

Why new? They are talking about the modernization of the engine. The local task of removing more electricity from the current engine is more than feasible.
According to rumors, a laser self-defense weapon will be introduced in Block 5, and qualitative changes are already needed there.

[voyaka uh]

"How will they be provided?" ///
---
At General Electric - due to the new cooling system,
as I understand.
They declare performance characteristics: flight increases by 11%,
draft by 10%, cooling efficiency by 50% (!).
With the same fuel consumption.
Their goal is clear - to grab a contract from P&W for hundreds and hundreds of engines.
forward. So they are trying.
But I trust PRATT & WHITNEY more.

[Alex777]

Quote: voyaka uh

Their goal is clear - to grab a contract from P&W for hundreds and hundreds of engines ahead.

They declare performance characteristics: flight increases by 11%,
draft by 10%, cooling efficiency by 50% (!).
With the same fuel consumption.

They came up with a great idea. It's like a fairytale.
Block 4 is viable without a new engine, do you think?

[voyaka uh]

I had heard before that I needed a new computer with more memory.
The software has been greatly supplemented during its operation. And it has auxiliary
systems, such as the ill-fated system for predicting the replacement of parts and components,
which eats memory, and which is buggy.
And these auxiliary systems have to be turned off during the flight,
so that they do not interfere with the pilot and combat systems. Which are working properly.
A new computer requires more power. Which are removed from the engine shaft.
With the old engines, apparently, the software will not be fully used in Block-4 flight.

Several new types of missiles are being introduced into Block-4. American and European.
Norwegian KR, German Meteor, British, American explosives.
LRASM on external sling.
This is a major combat upgrade.

[Alex777]

Thank you!

[Filxnumx]

draft by 10%, cooling efficiency by 50% (!).
With the same fuel consumption.

since the mass and material of the turbine blades do not qualitatively change (although they can introduce a new thermo-, wear-resistant coating of the blades, but this can increase the cooling efficiency by 2-5%, no more), add. heat exchangers-coolers will not appear in the engine design (the weight limit for engines is stricter than for the airframe), which means they will change the working fluid-heat carrier, from air to liquid (possibly liquefied or supercooled air). Otherwise, it is fundamentally impossible to explain such a sharp jump in the cooling efficiency. And no one yet forbids the sandpiper to praise and overpraise his swamp It's impossible to check

[El Chuvachino]

Hmm, the most important junction around which the fighter is being built is already at its limit at the very beginning of the journey.

[tralflot1832]

It looks like the Americans got our disease: to create problems for themselves and then overcome them. Why is this engine bad for them, at the cost?

[JD1979]

As it turned out, the resource is less than expected and the stock for the modernization of avionics and an increase in mass is also small. Plus GE is working on new three-circuit engines right now, so why not?

[Gardener91]

Quote: tralflot1832

Why is this engine bad for them, at the cost?

Resource. With a new, more powerful on-board computer, there was a prospect to improve the characteristics of the engine and the aircraft as a whole, but there was a problem of cooling the avionics, which, if successfully overcome, could lead to an increase in the price of the product, and what is worse - an increase in weight and a decrease in reliability. Running in a circle.

[dauria]

already at the limit at the very beginning of the path

There were many single-engine fighters that had served for decades. And we, and they. And there were two-engine ones that quickly left the stage. The main thing is to guess the balance of conflicting requirements. And some
luck in changing trends over time. There seems to be no "revolution" in technology. An engine with a variable bypass ratio will be finished, it has long been asking for military aviation. And they will even get a reserve for thrust at speed or range (to choose from).
And then - this is a good for the whole planet. For many, one engine with a pair of land mines will be enough for the eyes.

[Gardener91]

Quote: dauria

And they will even get a reserve for thrust at speed or range (to choose from).

And with a changed specific consumption.

[Gardener91]

Quote: dauria

And then - this is a good for the whole planet. For many, one engine with a pair of land mines will be enough for the eyes.

It will be a little expensive to deliver fugasci. "Our people don't take a taxi to the bakery"))

[bobba94]

They were stamped already about 700 ..... the very beginning of the path. They have been stamped since 2007 ..... the very beginning of the journey. More recently, an article on VO was that in 2025 the serial production of the Su-35 with new engines (product 30) will begin ... ... is this also the beginning of the journey, or what? Here some comrades correctly write that it is rather ridiculous to be mischievous in this case ...

[Albert1988]

Quote: bobba94

serial production of the Su-35 with new engines (product 30)

Eeeeee ... This is when we decided to put "product 35" on the Su-30? I heard about the Su-57, but about the Su-35 - you have come up with something new ...

[bobba94]

I somehow thought that grammar nazy is gone now, but I was mistaken ...

[Albert1988]

Quote: bobba94

Yes, a remark on the merits, dreamed and printed the Su-35 ...

But I just thought - how would the 35th really behave, put our product 30 on it?

[bobba94]

I'm not a techie, but I think that for such an engine it would be necessary to radically change the entire design of the Su-35 and it would be a completely different plane. I thought about it, but then I realized that dreaming is one thing, but reality is quite another ...

[Albert1988]

Quote: bobba94

for such an engine, it would be necessary to radically change the entire design of the Su-35, and it would be a completely different plane.

Internal alterations would definitely be needed, since the dynamics would have changed dramatically. Well, I wish ours as soon as possible to put 30 on the 57th)))

[El Chuvachino]

Quote: bobba94

I somehow thought that grammar nazy is gone now, but I was mistaken ......

You just write more than you think, and that’s the logical result.

[El Chuvachino]

They have been stamped in the "A" configuration since 2011 in serial form, before that there was only small-scale production of test samples. The remaining two options began to arrive even later, several years later.

[Gardener91]

They know how to catch up with a blizzard in order to pump money from the budget, and the result of modernization will be inflated with the prospect of a type, in addition to electronics and a compressor, you also need a turbine, because the control program of the SU has new opportunities. Everything is so, but "their" production culture is not something that delights, but rather tickles pride. Although ... with such opportunities (money) you can create.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Gardener91

with such opportunities (money) you can create.

Well, for this, half of the world needs to be robbed ... and not the poorest half, like the EU

[Maks1995]

These F35 news, often in unsigned articles, are boring.

Small, single-engine, pot-bellied bomber. One of a kind. It's even difficult to compare honestly with something ...

In the course of modernization, they want to further increase the carrying capacity. Naturally, they also want to strengthen the engine ...

So we endlessly modernize aircraft, and the rest ...

[voyaka uh]

Block 4 will begin production in 2022.
But the new engine will not be installed on it.
Main innovations:
1) internal compartments for 6 missiles, instead of 4.
2) several types of new weapons (the European Meteor missile,
another CD, etc.)
3) the new computer is several times more powerful, with more memory.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: voyaka uh

Block 4 will begin production in 2022.

specify, as a result of Block-4, there will be that small part of the F-35 batch ordered by the Pentagon that will be released from 2022? the main part of the order has already been completed.
Do you have a version of what kind of processor cooling system that will require a new engine? we are not American senators here, most have at least an initial level of computer literacy and are aware of what a CPU cooler is or how it is. Didn't this budget and the parallel shoeing of the "happy" owners of the imported version of this aircraft into heaps of dough?

[voyaka uh]

"did it not drink the budget and the parallel shoes of the" happy "owners" ///
---
These are the usual upgrades to production fighter models.
The F-16, for example, already had a couple of dozen of them.
Therefore, the new F-16 is now being sold at the same price as the F-35.
New avionics, new weapons require software and computer updates.
This is understandable from the start to all aircraft buyers.

Lot 12 the Pentagon buys 80 million apiece, Lot 13 (already Block-4), apparently,
again will rise in price by a couple of million. Together: 400+ new planes.
If the next lot is large, the price will decrease again. Depends on
large-scale production.

When the production of the Su-57 begins, it will also become cheaper.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: voyaka uh

These are the usual upgrades to production fighter models.
The F-16, for example, already had a couple of dozen of them.

in this thesis, the story with the expansion of the bomb bay by 30% confuses. it is not a software update. it will not be sawed off with a jigsaw, is it? this is a redesign of the entire fuselage and internal communications.
there is also a new engine planning ... again costs for customers who bought this device.
And yet, what kind of cooler is this for a new processor for which a new engine is needed?

Quote: voyaka uh

When the production of the Su-57 begins, it will also become cheaper.

there is a doubt that they are planning to do it in large quantities. it looks like the bet is on 4 ++ with ROFAR.

[voyaka uh]

"in this thesis, the story with the expansion of the bomb bay by 30% confuses" ///
---
The bomb bays (there are two of them) remained exactly the same.
But the rocket hangers were made with a more compact package.
(type, half-revolving drum). And it began to fit not two rockets
into the compartment, and three. Plus 30%.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: voyaka uh

The bomb bays (there are two of them) remained exactly the same.
But the rocket hangers were made with a more compact package.
(type, half-revolving drum). And it began to fit not two rockets
into the compartment, and three. Plus 30%.

thank you for the clarification.

[AVA77]

Strange, electronics is constantly developing, the speed of information processing increases, the technical process decreases, and supplies power consumption and heat dissipation. Accordingly, the weight also decreases, and for some reason the penguin gets fat.

[Alex777]

Quote: AVA77

the technical process is reduced, the power consumption and heat dissipation are supplied.

Even smartphones have an overheating problem on this bright path.
And the "less technical process", the more marriage = more expensive "electronics".

[SovAr238A]

Quote: AVA77

Strange, electronics is constantly developing, the speed of information processing increases, the technical process decreases, and supplies power consumption and heat dissipation. Accordingly, the weight also decreases, and for some reason the penguin gets fat.

With a decrease in weight, a decrease in energy consumption - the irrepressible desire of designers to "add" always goes hand in hand ...
Add quality features, multiply productivity.
Remembering computers, high-power and gaming, for example, 2006, where top-end components, even with a thick process technology and with high heat dissipation, required a power supply unit of 500-550 watts. And it seemed like a lot.
Modern gaming computers require power supplies for a kilowatt.
But on the other hand, they are not many times more productive.
And this increased potential will certainly be used.
And computers are computers.
And it doesn't matter where they stand.
On the plane or in the gaming club
The principle of operation is the same.

[AVA77]

The current plane is not a game computer, it is not a Porsche girls to shoot, it has strictly defined tasks. Here, as it were, the principle of sufficiency comes to the fore.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: AVA77

The current plane is not a game computer, it is not a Porsche girls to shoot, it has strictly defined tasks. Here, as it were, the principle of sufficiency comes to the fore.

Again.
The principle of sufficiency, in the last 20 years in systems engineering, is considered a flawed practice.

The principle of sufficiency in design leads to a lack of future modernization potential.

And the availability of the potential for modernization and the use of future potential functions that can be realized not only by changing the architecture, changing blocks, but also by simply using the already existing "redundant" performance is priceless!

That is why the Western design method is trying to have a modernization potential.
This is money. Present and future.

A light software or hardware upgrade, in 5-10 years, is likely to be contracted by the existing avionics manufacturer.
And the one that was "sufficient" at the limit, at the time of the start of production, and even 5-10 years after the start of service, will only change entirely.
And competitors in this case can squeeze this piece. 50/50.
And besides, competitors, creating their blocks on your "plot", increase their competencies, better than you.
And in future projects, they have more benefits.

[AVA77]

The principle of sufficiency, in the last 20 years in systems engineering, is considered a flawed practice.
Well, so be it.
In my personal opinion, the principle of redundancy leads to sawing the dough and reducing combat effectiveness. It is not a fact that the pledged excess potential in the future will be in demand at all, but everything has already been paid for, the money has gone to waste.

[Mavrikiy]

And I liked the photo. "So lively ...." Although a photo shop is possible.

[askort154]

Mavrikiy ...And I liked the photo. "So lively ...." Although a photo shop is possible.

This will be the next and last modernization of the F-35, disguising it as a "cloud".

[Viktor Sergeev]

They would admit that it turned out to be a disabled plane, super crude and it is required to allocate the same amount of money to bring it into a state that allows it to at least fly normally and not ruin the pilot. Now they are deciding the question: why was it made at all? In modern wars waged by the United States, it is not needed; a war with Russia or China will be nuclear for mutual destruction. But so much money was stolen that it would be possible to update the entire fleet of 4th generation aircraft.

[Alexander Koshkin]

Strangely, the author does not know that from this year all f35s are equipped with a new three-circuit XA-100 engine !? Thrust increased by 10%, fuel consumption decreased by 25%, range increased by 50%.

[Wolf]

A typical Anglo-Saxon talk about their technology, they will never say straight out that the engine for the F35, themselves bad for the post-war history of US military aircraft, IT IS LOST AND BIG !!!
When the weight world saw the fact of a bad engine, they talk about "upgrading"!
They will never say that you have to be very skillful and put such a dermo on a 5th generation plane !!!

[TermNachTer]

Everything is clear - give more money, with a lot and at once, and then more))))

[hohohol]

No, well, what? A good airplane requires a constant investment of money. I wish you success and prosperity for Lockheed-Martin for many years to come!

[agoran]

So I apologize, but how will "installing a new core processor, memory unit and panoramic cockpit display" increase the weight load?
Ie a new percentage, a cooler und operative, well, figs with it, and the monitor on this penguin needs to be changed and the engine?

[alexeymartin]

Was Awesome, the most, after the modernization will become the most, the most Fucking. Even in a hold weapon. There is a saber, there is an ax. Something in between is a machete. But the machete will not replace the saber in battle and will not replace the ax in felling. What software in the machete does not sew up the functionality is determined by the design features. Good luck...

[gridasov]

It can be said unequivocally that programming as a method and method for analyzing big data very, very restricts the perception of reality and the rationality of decisions made. But this work can be done by the developed brain of a person working precisely on the principles of analysis. I will keep silent about the essence of the mathematical method itself. Therefore, the designers gave priority to machines in creating rational ideas. This has created the problem of the development of fundamental sciences, and especially in the practical plan of flight at high relative speeds in the atmosphere. Those who do not understand this will continue to fight like a bird in a cage for a long time. Hence the decisions.

[Leonid Har]

Looks like Lockheed Martin does not lose hope for the next stage of the divorce of the Pentagon and the American states of satellites for the loot. It reminds me of the phrase: "You are disturbed by the security service of Sberbank. What is the pin code of your card and your plane will become a wonder-wunderwolf?"