Preparing for war by the General Staff of the Red Army

The following abbreviations are used in the article: IN - military district, GSh - General base, DVF - Far Eastern Front, ZabVO - Transbaikal Military District, SOBOVO - Western Special VO, Spacecraft - Red Army, Cova - Kiev Special VO, md - motorized division, NCOs - People's Commissariat of Defense, OdVO - Odessa VO, Pribovo - Baltic special VO, Goals Difference - intelligence materials, RU - intelligence department of the General Staff, sd - rifle division, td - tank division.

In the previous part it was shown that the leadership of our country knew about the inevitability of war with Germany, but believed that the beginning of the war would be associated with the outcome of future negotiations, during which ultimatum demands could be presented. Intelligence reported this to the leadership.

The Second World War deviated from the developed scenario, and the Americans became worried. It was necessary to somehow change the course of the war, so as not to be left alone against the unpredictable Hitler. To somehow help England, after which it would be the turn of the United States. This could have been achieved with the help of the Soviet Union.

At the end of May, the American president said: “The United States will provide all-round assistance to England and those countries that by force weapons resist Germany ... " The USSR approached the role of a country to which, in the event of a war with Hitler, the United States could provide all-round assistance.

According to the incoming RM, the German grouping in Romania in May increased sharply. Probably, to counter this threat, the 34th Rifle Corps began to be transferred from the North Caucasus Military District. The 25th Rifle Corps was redeployed to the border between KOVO and Kharkov VO in the camps.

67 rifle divisions, contained in the 4/120 state, took on training camps of 6 assigned personnel for the deployment of 000 rifle companies out of 18 available in the formations. These divisions were not fully provided with transport and were of limited mobility. However, the divisions did not need mobility, since the training of the assigned personnel was planned to be carried out in permanent camps.

For a long time, Stalin's reaction to Germany's preparations for war in 1941 has been viewed from the point of view of the memoirs of military leaders. Many of these memoirs were based on the memoirs of G.K. Zhukov, who was the chief of the General Staff on the eve of the war. Therefore, he had to know a lot about the pre-war period.

Let's consider several episodes from the memoirs of Marshal G.K. Zhukov.

Increase in the number of divisions in the western districts

The first episode concerns the training camp in 1941. This issue has already been discussed in the previous two parts.

G.K. Zhukov:

I asked [S. K. Timoshenko - approx. Auth.] once again report to the government and at the same time ask for permission to call up an assigned personnel from the reserve in order to bring parts of the border military units into a combat-ready state ...
Once ... Stalin asked how the conscription of the assigned personnel from the reserve was going. The People's Commissar of Defense replied that the call-up of the reserve was proceeding normally, the enlistment staff would be in the border districts at the end of April. At the beginning of May, his retraining in units will begin ...

For training camps in 1941, the enrolled staff was to be involved in the amount determined by applications from the districts. Nobody was going to cancel the training camp in 1941. The Defense Drug Commander was only told that it was required to reduce the number of people involved in training camps. "Up to less than a million people"... The People's Commissar of Defense could not or did not begin to justify the need for a larger composition in the government.

The enlistment staff at the end of April was not called up for training in the border districts. In the border districts, in May, training began in 41% of the divisions, which were supposed to receive the assigned personnel. The training camp in the internal districts was planned to be held in June, of which in three divisions - in July.

It can be stated:

- The General Staff was removed from the distribution of the enrolled personnel, called up for training, by districts;

- The General Staff agreed that 28% of the personnel involved in the training were called up for training in the rifle and mountain rifle divisions of the border districts;

- The General Staff did not object to the fact that some divisions of the western districts did not participate in the training camp.

For example, in the ZAPOVO they called for training in 4 rifle divisions out of 24 located in the district. In KOVO, appointees were called up in 26 rifle and mountain divisions out of 32, and in OdVO - in 4 out of 8. In PribOVO, the enrolled personnel began to arrive for training somewhere from 20 June.

On June 1.06.1941, XNUMX, the average manning of rifle divisions in the western districts was ("History World War II 1941-1945 "): PribOVO - 8 712 people, ZapOVO - 9 327, KOVO - 8 792 and OdVO - 8 400.

In the rifle divisions of the state 4/100 (staffing 10 people), 291 registrants were called up, increasing its composition to 1 people. In the 900/12 state division (staffing 191 people), 4 scribes were called up, increasing its composition to 120 people. In the mountain rifle divisions (staffing 5 people) KOVO was called up: in five - 864 people and in one - 6.

If the KA leadership was expecting a war and wanted to increase the number of rifle divisions to about 12 people in the western districts, and mountain rifle divisions to 000, then it was necessary to additionally call for training in the western districts of 11 appointees or redistribute them from the inner districts.

It can be seen that the OdVO turned out to be the most prepared in this regard. Most likely, the credit for this belongs to the chief of staff of the district V.M. Zakharov.

Also, it was additionally required to mobilize a large number of horses and cars in the national economy. It took 4-120 days for the staffing and combat coordination of the rifle divisions of the 20/30 state according to mob plans. Therefore, by the beginning of the war, 67 such divisions were of limited mobility. The personnel of not all divisions was fully prepared and did not go through combat coordination.

In the "Strategic Sketch of the Great Patriotic War 1941-1945." said:

It was quite obvious that with the sudden start of the war, the mobilization of the formations located on the border would fail. These troops will enter the battle not mobilized and, therefore, not in full combat readiness.

However, this important point was not taken into account in the plan.

Particularly unrealistic in this case was the planned deployment of army and front-line communications units, engineering troops, units and institutions of the rear, as well as providing cover armies with personnel, auto transport, artillery traction means (tractors), repair trains and other equipment necessary from the first minutes of the battle. ...

The General Staff were obliged to understand all this, but in the end a tragedy happened.

The only reasonable explanation for it is that on the eve of the war, there was in the minds of the army leadership a firm belief in the possibility of deploying formations within the time frame on the basis of which mobilization plans were prepared for them.

It should be noted that Stalin was not involved in this.

Together with the government, he only agreed on the number of enrolled personnel involved in the training camp. He did not define how this composition will be distributed among the constituencies. He did not establish the volume of troops (including artillery and anti-aircraft artillery units) sent to the camps. He did not redistribute personnel and equipment between the many formed formations. He did not record what and where of the units needed to be transferred in peacetime. However, the army was accused of being unprepared ...

Summing up, we can say that the information about the concern of the chief of the General Staff about the call of the assigned personnel to bring the western border districts into a combat-ready state is unreliable.

Redeployment of troops from internal districts

G.K. Zhukov wrote about the redeployment of troops from the internal districts:

It should be noted that until June 10, according to the directives of the General Staff, the 16th Army was not supposed to be sent to the territory of KOVO.

Until June 12, the 21st and 22nd armies did not move out of their deployment points.

With the advancement of the 25th Rifle Corps, there is some kind of confusion in the memoirs.
The 19th Army was partially concentrated on the territory of KOVO. The probable reason for her concentration was discussed at the end of the previous part.

Another 11 rifle divisions were sent to the western districts to disband.

We can say that the episode presented also contains incorrect information about the transfer of 28 rifle divisions from the internal districts in May. Even taking into account the 11 divisions sent to disband ...

Stalin is against putting troops on alert

Let us consider an episode from the memoirs of G.K. Zhukov, which describes Stalin's reaction to the proposal of the military: to bring the troops of the border districts on alert.

The text contains details with the date of the conversation. Below is a list of people who have visited Stalin's office since June 14. The previous appointment was on June 11th.

Until June 18, the People's Commissar of Defense and the Chief of the General Staff did not appear in Stalin's office.

On June 17, NF Vatutin and the People's Commissar of Railways LM Kaganovich were present in the office simultaneously with Stalin and VM Molotov. It seems that the conference was reporting on military transport from the inner districts to the west.

So, maybe there was no such conversation? Perhaps this is a deliberate distortion of information?

And what is it for?

For example, to show war veterans and descendants that the KA leadership foresaw everything in advance and tried to avoid a catastrophe on the border, but the stubborn tyrant did not allow this to be done? In this case, it will be clear to everyone that only dead Stalin is to blame for the frontier catastrophe on June 22. Therefore, for huge losses and the defeat of border groupings, the demand is only from him ...

Could the military have raised the issue of bringing the troops of the western districts to combat readiness on June 18?

We will consider this issue later, when the story comes to this date.

How adequate was Stalin?

Using the mechanized corps as an example, I propose to consider the issue of Stalin's sanity for those people whose opinion may differ from his vision.

In 1939, the spacecraft had four tank corps. When the corps were brought into the territory of Western Belarus and Western Ukraine, their command faced certain problems: the difficulty of management, the cumbersome organization and the complexity of material support.

21.11.1939/XNUMX/XNUMX at the Main Military Council of the spacecraft discussed the issue of disbanding the tank corps.

K. Ye. Voroshilov, B. M. Shaposhnikov and G. I. Kulik were in favor of the disbandment, while S. M. Budyonny and E. A. Shchadenko opposed it. DG Pavlov did not vote, and SK Timoshenko suggested revising their organizational and staff structure. By a majority vote, it was decided to reorganize the corps into four motorized divisions.

In May 1940, German troops showed what large mobile groups are capable of. In RM, an analysis was carried out of the use of German tank groupings in the war in Poland and in the West. Stalin carefully familiarized himself with all incoming RM and once had to take an interest in our large mobile groups.

Nobody from the General Staff addressed Stalin with proposals for the creation of tank or mechanized corps. This is understandable, because only six months ago the military decided that such corps were ineffective. In his memoirs, Marshal V. M. Zakharov wrote about how the issue with the creation of mechanized corps was resolved.

At the end of May 1940, Stalin asked the chief of the General Staff B.M. Shaposhnikov and his 1st deputy I.V. Smorodinov:

“Why are there no mechanized and tank corps in our army?
After all, the experience of the war of the German fascist army in Poland and in the West shows their value in battle.
We need to immediately consider this issue and form several corps in which there would be 1000-1200 tanks ... "

M. V. Zakharov drew the attention of I.V. Smorodinov that

we have the developed staffs of the mechanized corps [meaning the staffs of the previously existing corps - approx. auth.]. This should have been reported to Stalin and asked for his permission, based on the calculations and the plan for the receipt of tanks from the industry, to re-form the mechanized corps in relation to the previously existing staff structure, in which it may be advisable to make only some changes.

I.V.Smorodinov replied that he could not discuss this issue, since he had received instructions from Stalin - to have a mechanized corps in the composition of two tank and one motorized divisions, and in tank regiments to have at least 200 tanks ...

The problem was that in an unexpected conversation with Stalin, the leadership of the General Staff was not ready to discuss this issue. It was also not ready to re-raise the discussion of this issue with Stalin in order to determine the most optimal structure of the corps. As a result, with the tacit approval or disagreement of the SC leadership, cumbersome and difficult to control mechanized corps were adopted.

Somewhere at the end of December 1940 - in January 1941, the General Staff presented to Stalin a document on the additional formation of about 10 mechanized corps. This document was approved by Stalin with some amendments. The appointed new chief of the General Staff G.K. Zhukov doubled this number.
Stalin summoned K.A.Meretskov and asked about his opinion on the increase in the number of corps being formed. Later, perhaps, he consulted with someone else and spoke with Zhukov. By March or early March, Stalin agreed with the point of view of G.K. Zhukov.

It turns out that Stalin takes into account the information with which he may not agree, consults with experts, thinks and then makes a decision. That is, he is a sane and thinking leader.

The People's Commissar of Defense and the Chief of the General Staff substantiated to him the February plan for the deployment of spacecraft troops in case of war - and Stalin agreed with him. The military insisted on the deployment of all formations in peacetime - Stalin agreed with them. Stalin is not a professional soldier, and therefore the leadership of the army was obliged to submit to him their expert opinions.

Above, the work "Strategic sketch of the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945" was already mentioned, which was prepared at a time when Marshal MV Zakharov was the chief of the General Staff. The head of the General Staff carefully studied a lot of documents, he had his own opinion, which, perhaps, was reflected in the essay.

Acquaintance with the documents of M.V. Zakharov is confirmed by the historian S. L. Chekunov:

Most of all I used the archive of General Staff G.K. Zhukov (I watched it personally). In second place is M.V. Zakharov (and for him it was mainly his subordinates who watched) ...

The essay says:

The fact that the main force of the ground forces may not be ready for the start of the war in the spring-summer of 1941, the leaders of the spacecraft required were to inform Stalin. But they seem to have gotten so caught up in army reform and military planning that they only expected war sometime in 1942. But Stalin is not to blame for this ...

In April 1941, the SC leaders wanted to form 10 anti-tank artillery brigades and five airborne corps - and Stalin agreed with them.

The army leadership took all military planning into their own hands, and it is very likely that Stalin trusted this leadership too much. He did not have independent experts ...

What was important for the country's defense capability denied by the country's military leadership in the spring of 1941?

It can only be said that, to please the new anti-tank brigades and airborne corps, Stalin did not allow the army to be increased even more. Therefore, the military had to sacrifice eleven rifle divisions. In this case, he only played down the military's appetites. To Stalin, no one was able to prove on figures that the war could start in June ...

Redeployment of the 16th Army

On April 13, a non-aggression pact was signed with Japan, which was ratified on April 25. The situation on the Far Eastern borders began to appear to the army leadership more calm. On April 26, several directives were sent from the General Staff on the redeployment of formations from various districts.

The 211st and 212nd Airborne Brigades, as well as the command of the 31st Rifle Corps, are to go west from the Far East Fleet. It was necessary to prepare the 21st and 66th rifle divisions for dispatch to the west from the Far Eastern Division, and from the ZabVO the 16th army as part of the 5th mechanized corps (13th and 17th TD, 109th MD) and 32nd infantry corps (46th and 152nd rifle divisions). The dispatch should have been made on additional instructions. However, it was not planned to attract the assigned personnel for training camps at the Far Eastern Fleet and in the ZabVO in 1941.

A logical question arises: "How many were the 21st, 66th, 46th and 152nd divisions if they were planned to be sent to the west?"

The rifle divisions of the Far Eastern Front were kept on a staff of 4/100. Until recently, the author only knew about the rifle divisions of the ZabVO that they were held in peaceful states. But there were two peaceful states: 4/100 (10 people) and 291/4 (120 people).
Which of them contained the ZabVO divisions?

This issue is clarified by the directive of the General Staff, directed on June 7.06.1941, XNUMX to the ZabVO:

People's Commissar of Defense ordered:

1. To call for 45-day training camps assigned to combat units from the resources of the Ural Military District, junior commanding officers and rank-and-file personnel and organize their training at 93, 114, 65 and 94 rifle divisions, 1 (people) of junior command personnel and 000 privates each.

2. Summon for 60-day training camps all command and control personnel assigned to combat units, sending them to their units.

3. Horses and mechanical transport from the national economy should not be attracted for fees ...

In each of the four remaining rifle divisions of the ZabVO it was required to involve 6 junior command personnel and privates. Consequently, these divisions were kept on a staff of 250/4, and after the arrival of the assignees, they should have reached the number of 120 people.

Since there are 18 rifle companies deployed in each division, the command personnel (commanders and deputy companies, platoon commanders and political workers) are also called up. With the conscripted command personnel, the number of divisions will be somewhat larger. Horses and mechanized transport are not involved in the training camp, since the divisions will be in their permanent camps.

The figure below shows the deployment of the ZabVO rifle divisions before the start of the war (152nd Rifle Division - before it was sent). It can be seen that the 65th and 152nd rifle divisions are located closest to the Manchurian border.

Since the 65th division was contained in the 4/120 state, the 152nd rifle division had to be kept in the same state. According to a single state for rifle divisions, the 46th rifle division was to be contained in the district, located quite far from the border.
Thus, two rifle divisions, which, if necessary, should have been sent to the west, had personnel in the amount of 5 people, did not have 864/2 of the rifle companies laid down by the state and the 3-strong transport for the division.

Why should this inferior division be advanced several thousand kilometers away?

An article on the promotion of the 16th Army was presented on the Voennoye Obozreniye website. IN 1-th и 2nd parts This article was reviewed by the RM, which spoke about the preparation of German actions against Turkey, Syria, Iraq and our southern borders.

In early May, units of the 16th Army began to talk about the redeployment of divisions to the west.

For example, in the 333rd artillery regiment of the 152nd SD, on May 3, the command staff was announced to be redeployed to the west. Consequently, they did not make a special secret of this, since, if necessary, it was planned to send the 16th army to the Voronezh region. And this would not be anything special. After all, two airborne brigades, a rifle corps department and eleven rifle divisions, staffed entirely with the Far Eastern Front, from the Siberian, Ural, Moscow, North Caucasian, Kharkov, Volga and Oryol VOs have already been sent to the western districts. The redeployment to the territory of KOVO was started and was being prepared for up to 5-6 divisions. Therefore, the leadership of the spacecraft did not give a damn about the opinion of the German command about the transportation of five more divisions to the Oryol VO. After all, this is not a withdrawal of connections to the state border, or even a withdrawal to border districts.

On May 25, a directive comes in on the urgent redeployment of the 16th army as part of the 5th mechanized corps and the 32nd rifle corps. At this time, the commander of the district is in the disposition of the troops of the 16th Army. The commanders of the troops of the district and the 16th Army were literally pulled out of the railway carriage, and they went by plane to the headquarters of the ZabVO. Nobody at the district headquarters knew the destination station for the 16th Army.

In the memoirs of A.A. Lobachev, a member of the military council of the 16th Army (Deputy Chief of the General Staff V.D.Sokolovsky told him about this), A.I. ), the commander of the 28.06.1941th army M.F.Lukin, who told his daughter about this, the 4th army was sent to the Transcaucasus at the Soviet-Iranian border.

This is also indicated by historian A.V. Isaev: “The 16th Army went to Transcaucasia ...»

According to M.F.Lukin, he worked in the General Staff in the strictest secrecy. There he met the commander of the Ural District (the future 22nd Army), which was supposed to be his left neighbor (across the Caspian Sea) during an operation in Iran.

One may or may not believe in what has been said above, but as confirmation of this there are some indirect facts.

1. One commander, MF Lukin, was summoned from the entire 16th Army to the General Staff. On June 4, a member of the military council of the 16th Army left for the NCO (probably the Main Political Directorate of the KA).

At the end of May, the commander of the 57th TD, V.A.Mishulin, was informed that his division was called a separate division. Upon his arrival at the ZabVO headquarters, the district commander informs him that he should report to the General Staff.

The General Staff summons the commander of the army, which has two corps, five divisions and the only commander of a separate tank division. The commander of the ZabVO also met only with the commander and a member of the military council of the 16th army and the commander of the 57th separate tank division.

The conclusion suggests itself that the 16th Army and the 57th Separate Panzer Division should have had different tasks and operate in different directions.

The 16th Army had a mechanized corps, and there were no good tanks in the Central Asian District, where it was planned to transfer units of the 22nd Army. There were tanks with a limited resource, which were previously intensively used in exercises.
This is probably why they decided to transfer the 57th division to reinforce the army's troops from the Urals.

In the conditions of the supposedly impending danger of war, 1 relatively modern high-speed BT-50m tanks are being transferred from the Moscow Military District to the Central Asian District by June 7, of which 9 were radio-equipped.

2. The route of transportation through Central Asia (on a single-track road), although the Transib (two-track road) is not loaded with military traffic. And it was along the Transib that part of the troops with the Far Eastern Front left.

After changing the destination of the 16th Army (June 9-10), part of the echelons from Novosibirsk were sent to Voronezh along the Transib. Therefore, some echelons with the headquarters of the 109th motorized division, units of the 381st and 602nd motorized regiments disembarked at the Berdichev station on June 18, ahead of the tank units that were sent at the end of May.

3. Probably, the operation itself was planned swiftly, and therefore rifle divisions were not required at the initial stage. In this direction in the Transcaucasian district there were two mountain rifle and cavalry divisions. Rifle divisions from Transbaikalia could be needed later, when it would be required to protect objects, communications and the Turkish border.

Therefore, from the ZabVO with a mechanized corps, one 152nd rifle division is sent - the only one of all the divisions transferred to the west in May-June, with a personnel strength of less than 6 people. The second division (000th rifle division) is not being transferred from Transbaikalia. On June 46, she is in Irkutsk, raises her assigned staff and from June 22 begins redeployment to the west.

Therefore, the 21st and 66th Rifle Divisions from the Far Eastern Front, which are ready for dispatch, are also not transferred anywhere, but remain at the points of permanent deployment. The 21st Rifle Division will begin redeploying to the west only on September 11, and the 66th Division will be in the Far East until the end of the war.

Therefore, rifle divisions from the North Caucasian Military District are not planned to be transferred to Transcaucasia.

In May-June 1941, 3 civilians were mobilized to be sent to Iran in the Azerbaijan SSR: 816 party workers, 82 employees of Soviet organizations, 100 employees of security agencies, 200 police officers, 400 prosecutors, 70 judges and 90 workers of printing houses, etc. ... The heads of the subcommittees and the head of the commission have been appointed.

In early June, the entire staff of the reconnaissance and sabotage school, including instructors, was abandoned on the territory of Iran. Perhaps to ensure the entry of troops.

4. At the end of May, exercises are being held in the Transcaucasian VO, about which it is only known that "Batov commanded the front"... The commander of the district, General Kozlov, was summoned to Moscow at almost the same time as General Lukin. On June 13-17, the second exercises are held in the Transcaucasian District, the topic of which is unknown.

Exercises are held in the Central Asian District in early June "Concentration of a separate army to the state border"... It is very similar to preliminary training for the concentration of the army from the Urals.

After the re-targeting of armies from south to west, the leaders of the Transcaucasian and Central Asian districts continue to develop a kind of secret operation.

S. L. Chekunov noted:

For your information ... I inform you that the cases of operational planning in the West and the East on the eve of the war were all declassified, a couple of cases in the South (SAVO and ZakVO) and a couple of cases for 1937-1940 remained in secret storage. And yes, there is something else in the Moremani ...

This means that there are some points that are still too early to reveal on operational planning in the south ...

5. In early June, the speed of the 16th Army's echelons slowed down. Long stops appeared at large railway stations. The personnel were allowed to walk and were washed.

Historian S. L. Chekunov:

At the beginning of June, our people, in general, did not understand what was happening ...

That is why it was the ninth who saw the light - it is not clear. However, it is absolutely certain that until the evening of June 9, the option of a war with Germany was not considered as upcoming events ...

During two evening meetings on June 9, decisions were made to start the main deployment ...

The 16th Army is redeployed to the Oryol Military District and only on June 10 a decision is made to redeploy it to KOVO ...

Historian A. V. Isaev: «[16th Army - approx. auth.] turned on June 10 ... "

How the German troops were supposed to advance

In the area of ​​15.05.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX, a note was prepared by the People's Commissar of Defense and Chief of the General Staff to the Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR I.V.

On July 30.07.2021, XNUMX, a meeting of the Russian Historical Society was held. In the foyer, the "Diagram of the balance of forces" and the "Diagram of the deployment of the strategic forces of the USSR" were exhibited. I got into the media one of the schemes.

The quality of the photograph does not allow us to see the inscriptions concerning the German groups. However, information on these groupings can only be based on the RM RU of 15.05.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX, as this is stated in the textual part of the document.

The figure below shows the reconstructed location of some cities.

The diagram shows the directions of German strikes, as understood by the General Staff, as of May 15-17.

It can be seen that the blue arrows on the map do not represent the actual plans for the German offensive.

That is, even in the second decade of May, the General Staff has no information about the operational plans of the German command in the event of a war with the Soviet Union.

The small arrow on the front of the PribVO probably symbolizes the auxiliary strike of the enemy's Northern grouping. On the flanks of the PribOVO and ZAPOVO, the main attack is expected through Vilnius to Orsha and Bobruisk.

Our command is unaware of a large German grouping in the Brest region. It will not know about this group even on the morning of June 23rd. The fact that the Germans decided to encircle the ZAPOVO grouping and unite in the Minsk region, no one guesses.

Some "wise men" fantasized that there was only one road to Moscow - through Brest and Minsk.
Unfortunately, the General Staff doesn't think about it ...

To fend off the attack on Orsha, the 14nd Army from the Ural Military District began to concentrate on the flank of the probable direction of the German advance from June 22. To the east of Orsha are the troops of the Moscow District.

For reasons of the General Staff, the southern enemy grouping is delivering its main attack on a vast front from the cities of Wlodawa to Sokal. Further, the enemy troops are distributed to Kiev and Bobruisk.

From the border to Kiev, four of our corps are on the way of the enemy grouping.

By the beginning of the war in the Gomel region, the 21st Army began to concentrate from the Volga Region. To the east are the troops of the Oryol Military District, of which the 20th Army will begin to form after the start of the war.

Now it becomes clear: where did the General Staff decide to send the 13st and 21nd armies from June 22? They focused on the directions of the German strikes, which in the General Staff, it turns out, simply assumed ...

Unfortunately, intelligence was unable to provide information about the German plans ...

The diagram does not show the enemy's grouping in Romania, but according to the RM it is known that by May 31, reconnaissance "discovered" 17 German divisions in the border areas. 2/3 of this grouping were concentrated on the southern flank of the KOVO. Therefore, a special role is attached to this direction. From this grouping the arrow is aimed at Vinnitsa (Zhmerinka).

By June 19, according to intelligence, there were only 28 German divisions in Romania. In the prepared Directive No. 1 (as it was called in Soviet literature), there was initially a text about this direction: "A German attack can start with provocative actions, especially from Romania."

The text about Romania was deleted, but the 1st Deputy Chief of the General Staff Vatutin, after 4 o'clock in the morning, sends a telegram to alert the 4th anti-tank brigade and conduct a reconnaissance of the advance paths and defensive lines.

Now it becomes clear GK Zhukov's assumption about the exit of the enemy group to the rear of the Western Front, made in the first operational report of the General Staff.

It was not about the direction of movement of the enemy group to Minsk. He was guided by the May preparation on the direction of the enemy's movement from the northern direction to Bobruisk and Orsha. Opponent strike on Taurage, Šiauliai is a support or auxiliary strike. Nobody suspected that the PribOVO front would be torn apart by two large mobile groups ...

Therefore, they did not prepare to transfer large forces to a secondary sector of the front.

Thus, according to the May document, a scheme was prepared, according to which, by mid-June, they began to move in addition to two rifle corps of the 19th army, divisions of the 21st and 22nd armies.

It should be noted that all armies were not nominated in full force: the mechanized corps were not subordinated to them.

Consequently, there was still time for the advancement of the mechanized corps - so they believed in the General Staff ...

To be continued ...

Comments

[Ross xnumx]

Remember a fragment of the film "Battle of Moscow"

 Show / Hide text

The rapid advance of the German troops was due to the low training of the Red Army personnel, the lack of combat experience and skills in conducting a real battle.
And everything happened because most of the commanders practiced their defense, knowing:

How the German troops were supposed to advance

There was no such thing in real teachings that the "adversary" would win. For the blues to prevail over the reds. Simulated exercises (not even combat actions) always lead to predictable results. Fortunately, in some cases there is enough time to mobilize efforts and gain experience.

[strannik1985]

Rapid advance of German troops

Fought poorly at a ratio of 1: 4?

Simulated drills

A similar situation was simulated in the Zapad-1977 exercise with predictable results.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: strannik1985

Fought poorly at a ratio of 1: 4?

Combined arms combat tactics assume that the offensive / defense aspect ratio should be 3/1.
I’m not Solzhenitsyn and not Vlasov, but the grandson of the grandfathers who died in the war, and to say that the soldiers of the Red Army fought badly would not turn our heads. I will say the main reason for the rapid offensive of the German troops is the loss of control at the level of the army-division and division-regiment. In addition, one should not discount the massive offensive of the fascist troops and the bombing of the rear support of the army.
Applied simulation does not correspond to real combat. This was proved by the defenders of the Brest Fortress, Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad ...
Let's leave this topic and just remember with a kind word all who gave their lives for ours.

[strannik1985]

I will tell you the main reason for the rapid offensive of the German troops

At that time, the regulations determine the normal defense front of a rifle division of 8-12 km, do not remind on which front the SD of the covering armies were defending?

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: strannik1985

do not remind on which front

Quote: ROSS 42

Let's leave this topic and just remember with a kind word all who gave their lives for ours.

[amat22]

One of the main reasons for the defeat of the Red Army in the initial period of the war was that, according to the cover plan, 42 divisions were supposed to cover the border. The order to move to the places of deployment began to be given on June 9, 1941. Almost all 42 divisions by June 22 were in the places provided for by the cover plans in full combat readiness. However, in the ZOVO in Belarus, the order to bring the troops to full combat readiness was not given or was given somehow contradictory. But 42 divisions cannot hold back 183 German divisions, especially in the direction of the main attacks, where the Germans had an overwhelming superiority.
I repeat once again, according to the plan to cover the border of the General Staff, in the initial period of the war, the Germans were to be met by 42 divisions. While these divisions were holding back the Germans for 2 weeks, on the main line of defense in the depths of the country, they were to be met by the main troops, the so-called "2nd echelon". And mobilization, additional conscription, pulling up armies to the border have nothing to do with this. Yes, even in March, carry out a general mobilization. There will be 42 divisions on the border. This is provided for by the plans of the General Staff.
PS. Kozinkin writes about this. For me, he explained it all well. Read it.

[Golden Horde]

as we remember, there were statements by TASS since spring about the flights of German reconnaissance aircraft over the USSR from the Baltic to the Black Sea. Today we know that these were Ju-86 or high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft, which even then climbed an unprecedented 13-14 km. They filmed kilometers of photographic material and at the General Staff knew the daily accumulation of Soviet troops at the border. In the "Note of the German Foreign Ministry for foreign ambassadors" dated 21.06.41 it says that the USSR concentrated more than 160 divisions near the border, in fact there were 220 divisions and corps, but not 42 divisions! The students who taught the history lesson to Putin will also tell you about this. The creeping mobilization of equipment from NH in Kazakhstan began at the end of April, my father personally overtook two tractors at the beginning of May in st. Aktyubinsk, there was a shaft of equipment, although shipments were constantly going on. A week later, they began to call up tractor drivers and drivers into the army, the people openly said that there would be a war with Germany. This means that the order for mobilization was issued at the beginning of spring. Therefore, one of the first reasons for the defeat of the spacecraft in the initial phase of the war was that the troops were pulled up to the border itself and were not preparing for defense, but preparing to attack!

[Pessimist22]

Clearly, Stalin is not to blame, no one is to blame, probably the soldiers fought badly, the same can be said about Putin, he is not to blame, he is from the people and for the people, it is boyars and new nobles who are bending the people.

[Doliva63]

Quote: Pessimist22

Clearly, Stalin is not to blame, no one is to blame, probably the soldiers fought badly, the same can be said about Putin, he is not to blame, he is from the people and for the people, it is boyars and new nobles who are bending the people.

Comparing Stalin and Putin is, like, a joke, or what?

[riwas]

The only reasonable explanation for it is that on the eve of the war, there was in the minds of the army leadership a firm belief in the possibility of deploying formations within the time frame on the basis of which mobilization plans were prepared for them.

The leadership came up with the rules by which the enemy should act. And he lived in a world of illusions of these rules. It was necessary to learn how to conduct a real war in practice, paying in blood for mistakes.

[Boris55]

Quote: riwas

I had to learn how to conduct a real war in practice.

The practice was:

- 1917 - 1922 Civil War;
- 1919 - 1921 Soviet-Polish war;
- 1937 - 1940 Khalkhin-Gol, war against Japan;
- 1939 - 1940 Soviet-Finnish war.

Failures in the first months of the war are due to the desire of some leaders to use external forces (fascists) to solve their own internal political problems. This is not our invention, it is used always and everywhere. Take at least the same Maidan in Ukraine or an attempt to overthrow the legitimate government in Belarus.

[Denis812]

The failures in the first months of the war cannot be explained by any internal political squabbles.
The Red Army was simply not ready for a German attack. As well as the political leadership. For a variety of reasons.
But I can't even imagine who it was that specifically let the Germans pass through Ukraine and Belarus and the Baltic states in order to resolve some political issues ... Stalin? So he already had absolute power. Khrushchev? Beria? Zhukov? Who?

[Boris55]

Quote: Denis812

Khrushchev? Beria? Zhukov? Who?

Khrushchev and Zhukov.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: riwas

The leadership came up with the rules by which the enemy should act. And he lived in a world of illusions of these rules.

This is what should be said about the Germans.

[ivan2022]

Guderian was a "patriot of the USSR" more than our compatriots. He wrote that in the first phase of the war, the accumulated forces and means for the blitz war were the main factor. robbery of the budget by firms-producers. The German is looking for arguments in the essence of events, and the Russian is looking for how to blame another Russian. Glory to the Almighty that Lenin put forward a Georgian in his time.

[Operator]

All the actions of the General Staff of the Red Army followed from the political directive of J.V. Stalin: "There will be no war with Germany in 1941" (which contradicts the intelligence data of the General Staff of the General Staff of the NKO and the PGU of the NKVD). Even the generalized criterion of Germany's readiness to start a war in the east (reaching the number of German divisions at the level of 180 units on the border with the USSR), the presence of which the General Staff of the Red Army reported to Stalin in May 1941, was not taken into account by the latter.

Hence, the incomplete manning of deployed framed and newly formed units and formations, the transfer of part of the troops to the Transcaucasian direction, experimentation with the number and staff of the mechanized corps - the completion of these processes was clearly planned outside 1941.

On the most important thing - the purely amateurish disposition of not only the fighting forces of the covering army of the Red Army, but even their rear services (right on the Soviet-German border), lobbied by Stalin, as well as Stalin's direct ban on bringing forces and means into combat readiness, which was in effect until the second decade June 1941, and even the disarmament of the fighter aircraft of the Special Belarusian Military District in order to "prevent a response to the provocations of the Luftwaffe."

As a result of the implementation of the Stalinist political directive "with little blood on foreign territory", the Red Army did not have a single chance not only to stop the enemy's invasion forces, but also to significantly reduce the pace of its offensive in the strategic direction of Moscow.

PS The error of the General Staff of the RKKA with the determination of the strategic direction of the Wehrmacht offensive is a trifle of life, the mechanized corps are intended for operational maneuver, which have the ability to quickly transfer to the newly identified direction of the main attack. But only on one condition - every one of the mechanized corps should initially be in the strategic reserve of the defenders, and not on the front line (in the Brody and Rovno area in fact).

[avia12005]

Anyone can kick a dead lion. Stalin, until the creation of the Supreme Command Headquarters, was not the Supreme Commander-in-Chief. The People's Commissar of Defense and the Chief of the General Staff were responsible for the state of the Red Army and its readiness for war. The USSR won the war.

[Doctor]

Anyone can kick a dead lion. Stalin, until the creation of the Supreme Command Headquarters, was not the Supreme Commander-in-Chief. The People's Commissar of Defense and the Chief of the General Staff were responsible for the state of the Red Army and its readiness for war. The USSR won the war.

Nice try. But it doesn’t work. This idea contradicts the entire ideology of the relationship between the Bolsheviks in general and Stalin in particular with the army.

This ideology can be summed up in one word - distrust.

The Bolsheviks are professional revolutionaries, so they knew perfectly well the role of the army in the revolution.
Caesar, Napoleon, the princes' squads, Peter's archers, General Palen, the Moscow and Grenadier regiments on the Senate, and finally the generals who betrayed Nicholas II.

Stalin constantly actively intervened in the actions of the military, because he was used to doing this in the Civil War, where he sat in the RVS in the role of an overseer. This was all his military experience at that time.

[avia12005]

Fuck how ... Chamberlain and Churchill constantly interfered in the actions of the military. Hrenac, and then Dunkirk and the Ardennes arrived in time. And Singapore to boot. And as for Roosevelt, he drove all the way to Pearl Harbor!

[Doctor]

Fuck how ... Chamberlain and Churchill constantly interfered in the actions of the military. Hrenac, and then Dunkirk and the Ardennes arrived in time. And Singapore to boot. And as for Roosevelt, he drove all the way to Pearl Harbor!

You are wrong. The country's political system also extends to the relationship between politicians and the army. For the Anglo-Saxons, politicians set common tasks, and the tactics and strategy of their implementation are the business of the military.

For example Dunkirk among the British:
The bold plan proposed by General Weygand after his trip to the northern armies was just a paper project. Basically, this was the plan of the same Gamelin, which became even more hopeless as a result of new delays.
Faced with a difficult dilemma, we accepted Weygand's plan and honestly and persistently, although unsuccessfully, tried to carry it out until May 25.

And the Germans:
Hitler began to "feel anxiety about the tank formations, as they were exposed to significant danger, operating in difficult terrain, cut by canals, and were unable to achieve any significant results." He believed that he could not aimlessly sacrifice tank units, since they were very necessary for the second stage of the campaign.
The heated discussion ended with the receipt of a categorical order from Hitler, to which he added that to ensure the execution of his order, he would send personal liaison officers to the front.

As a result, the British managed to escape.

[avia12005]

Well, where does Stalin with his homespun bast go to the British ... Their victorious flight from Dunkirk has entered the anal (this is not a typo) of military art.

[Doctor]

Well, where does Stalin with his homespun bast go to the British ... Their victorious flight from Dunkirk has entered the anal (this is not a typo) of military art.

Yeah. He immediately rushed from Brest to Berlin with a bast shoe at the ready.

You just don't know that our "overseers" were officially on the staff.
Until October 9, 1942, when, after the arts of Mehlis in the Crimea and other comrades, they were removed.

 Show / Hide text

PRESIDIUM OF THE SUPREME COUNCIL OF THE USSR
DECREE
from xnumx october xnumx year
On the establishment of full one-man command and the abolition of the institution of military commissars in the Red Army


The system of military commissars established in the Red Army during the Civil War arose due to some distrust of the command staff, which included old military specialists who did not believe in the strength of Soviet power at that time and were even alien to it. During the years of the civil war, military commissars played a decisive role in strengthening the Red Army and in the selection of command personnel, in its political education and the imposition of military discipline.

In the years that followed, after the civil war, the process of further training and education of command personnel took place. As a result of this and under the influence of the successes and victories of the Soviet system in all spheres of life, the situation with the command cadres in the Red Army radically changed.

The Great Patriotic War against the German invaders tempered our command cadres, brought forward a huge layer of new talented commanders, tested in battles and loyal to their military duty and command honor to the end. In severe battles with the enemy, the commanders of the Red Army proved their loyalty to our homeland, acquired significant experience in modern warfare, grew up and became stronger in military and political relations.

On the other hand, military commissars and political workers have increased their military knowledge, acquired rich experience in modern war, some of them have already been transferred to command positions and successfully lead troops, many others can be used in command positions either immediately or after a certain military training.

All these new circumstances associated with the growth of our command and political cadres indicate that the ground for the existence of a system of military commissars has completely disappeared. Furthermore, the further existence of the institution of military commissars may be a brake on improving command and control, but for the commissioners themselves creates a false position.

Thus, the need has ripened to abolish the institution of military commissars in the Red Army, to establish complete one-man command and to fully entrust commanders with responsibility for all aspects of work in the troops.

Based on this, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR decides:

1. Install in the Red Army nfull one-man command and assign responsibility entirely to commanders (chiefs) for all aspects of the combat and political life of units, formations and institutions of the Red Army.

2. To abolish the institute of military commissars in formations, units, headquarters, military educational institutions, central and main directorates of non-profit organizations and institutions of the Red Army, and the institute of political leaders in subdivisions.

3. Introduce the institute of deputy commanders for political affairs in the formations, units, headquarters, subunits, military educational institutions, in the central and main directorates of non-profit organizations and institutions of the Red Army. [201]

4. To intensify the transfer of the military commissars, who are the most trained in the military respect and who have heightened the experience of modern warfare, to political workers in command positions.

5. To establish military ranks and insignia common to all commanders of the Red Army for deputy commanders for political affairs and for all other political workers.

“Vedomosti of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR” 1942, No. 38

Not all of them are true, the main one remained.

[avia12005]

And how do you spend so much time sitting here and uploading documents?

[Doctor]

And how do you spend so much time sitting here and uploading documents drinks

I sit, work, and the bookmark hangs to itself.

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: avia12005

The People's Commissar of Defense and the Chief of the General Staff were responsible for the state of the Red Army and its readiness for war.

))))))))))) Something about Nicholas 2 is not written, accusing him of all the failures of the army and navy.

[avia12005]

Nikolai was an absolute autocrat. You can, of course, convince yourself that Stalin was the emperor. But the documents say he trusted the military. Perhaps too much.

[ABC-schutze]

Nicholas # 2 is accused of the fact that, WITHOUT ANY OBJECTIVE NECESSITY, IT IS HE, BECAUSE OF THE HEAD OF THE COUNTRY, WITHOUTLY dragged Russia into TWO "devastating" wars for it. Japanese and PMV ...

AND BOTH LOST, as on the foreign policy front. So it is on the domestic political front ...

[Illanatol]

They don't write something about Nicholas 2, accusing him of all the failures of the army and navy.

And to whom did the troops swear allegiance in tsarist Russia?
And Nikolai, against the will of his entourage, accepted the post of Supreme Commander-in-Chief. And then he left him with the crown.
Stalin, unlike Nikolai Romanov, was not noticed in desertion.

[Denis812]

Unfortunately, I cannot agree.
If Stalin had an army completely independent of him, which would decide for itself how best to defend the Fatherland, then yes, of course.
But since Stalin secured all power on himself and gave out all sorts of gems like "There will be no war with Germany in 1941," he took full responsibility for what was happening.
If you do not want to give power to your subordinates, be ready to be responsible for all the mess that will happen.
Stalin wanted to control everything and was afraid to delegate decision-making to someone else.
Good. The dictator has the right. But then he also answers.

[chenia]

Quote: Operator

All the actions of the General Staff of the Red Army followed from the political directive of J.V. Stalin: "There will be no war with Germany in 1941" (which contradicts the intelligence data of the General Staff of the General Staff of the NKO and the PGU of the NKVD).

Quite a correct conclusion based on data from all types of intelligence. German really was not ready for war in 1941
In addition, I declare responsibly, even if we started preparing three weeks (or even a month) before the start of the war. the result would be the same as in reality.
We made all the mistakes (which led to the disaster) before. And first of all GSh (Meretskov and Zhukov). Zhukov came up with his own tales about the unexpectedness and unwillingness of Stalin to deploy, in his own defense. Bringing troops into a full battlefield is the prerogative of the district commander (of course, his district). Kirpanos wanted, and he began two weeks before the start of the Second World War, the deployment of part of his divisions. And no one punished him. But the fact that this did not help much (and this is taking into account that the main blow of the Germans was on Pavlov's troops) and means that the reasons for the failures were different.
And nothing that we had "defeated" the BTV (with a guarded number of tanks) reformers from the General Staff, under the leadership of Meretsky and Zhukov.
The BP of the permanent readiness troops was completely disrupted.
And wild personnel leapfrog.
The BUS was more necessary for economic needs (the arrangement of the locations of the newly formed formations, but only the second plan of the BP.

In justification of these actions, everyone and Stalin also (on the basis of all data) believed that there would be no war in 1941. And the principle is - we create bones (structure), and the meat will grow, and then we will grind it - the right one. But only when there is time. But he was not. Adventurer Hitler (despite warnings from part of the generals) climbed into the USSR. And he caught us changing clothes.

Quote: Operator

Stalin's ban on bringing forces and means into combat readiness, which was in effect until the second decade of June 1941,

There was no such thing, and this event would not help much.

Quote: Operator

But only on one condition - every one of the mechanized corps should initially be in the strategic reserve of the defenders,

And this is Zhukov's idea (although at first Meretskov put 2/3 of the MK of border districts in the first operational echelon, Shaposhnikov had them in the second). Zhukov, relying on the experience of Khalkhin's goal, believed that a powerful tank strike would "calm down" the enemy, and in the end we would "make peace" (well, as with Japan.
And he is right, the idea makes sense .. But for this you need to have the Red Army arr. 1944 (well, at least the middle of 1943).

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Operator

All actions of the General Staff of the Red Army followed from the political directive of J.V. Stalin: "There will be no war with Germany in 1941"

Do you have any proof that Stalin said exactly that?

Quote: Operator

180 units on the border with the USSR), the presence of which was reported to Stalin by the General Staff of the Red Army in May 1941, was not taken into account by the latter.

And do you have proof of this?

Quote: Operator

On the most important thing - the purely amateurish disposition of not only the fighting forces of the covering army of the Red Army, but even their rear services (right on the Soviet-German border), lobbied by Stalin, as well as Stalin's direct ban on bringing forces and means into combat readiness, which was in effect until the second decade June 1941, and even the disarmament of the fighter aircraft of the Special Belarusian Military District in order to "prevent a response to the provocations of the Luftwaffe."

And do you have documentary evidence of this delirium?

[Operator]

Do you still live in your alternative reality?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Operator

Do you still live in your alternative reality?

No, it's just that I'm not fooled by information from the OBS, unlike you.

[Operator]

NLP syndrome, most probably

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Operator

NLP syndrome, most probably

If you are about this, then any information is NLP. Why is the information received by me - NLP, but not received by you?
So, we still need to see which of us is a victim of NLP.

[ABC-schutze]

"PS The error of the General Staff of the Red Army with the determination of the strategic direction of the Wehrmacht offensive is a trifle of life, for operational maneuver, the mechanized corps are intended, which have the ability to quickly transfer to the newly identified direction of the main attack."
**********************************************************************************
Are you sure the "operator"? ..

How - such a "makar", correcting the mentioned "minor mistake" in the planning of the General Staff, is it possible to "promptly" transfer the mechanized corps from the South-West to the West and North-West directions? ..

At a distance of AT LEAST HUNDREDS OF KILOMETERS? .. Will they enter the battle, after such "transfer" combat-ready? .. With a normal resource, fuel reserves, "fresh" crews? ..

And, at the same time, to ensure, at the same time, AT LEAST, their EFFECTIVE interaction with their aviation?

Did Khrushchev suggest this to you? ..

"All actions of the General Staff of the Red Army followed from the political directive of J.V. Stalin:" There will be no war with Germany in 1941 "(contradicting the intelligence data of the General Staff of the General Staff of the NKO and the PGU of the NKVD). divisions at the level of 180 units on the border with the USSR), the presence of which the General Staff of the Red Army reported to Stalin in May 1941, was not taken into account by the latter. "
************************************************** *******************************
Well, of course ...

Excuse me, but with what conclusions did the General Staff of the RKKA "report" this to JV Stalin? states? ..

During the period from 12 to 18 June, the General Staff, EXACTLY FROM JV Stalin's supply, TWICE gave instructions to bring the troops into combat readiness! The directive WAS NOT FULFILLED. And for this PERSONAL responsibility is borne by the People's Commissar of Defense Tymoshenko and the Chief of the General Staff Zhukov ...

[Operator]

ABC-schütze: "Railway transport - no, I have not heard" (C).

It is useful for you as a German to learn how the Wehrmacht in 1942 used the same tank group to attack Stalingrad and the North Caucasus at once.

[ABC-schutze]

"1. ABC-schütze:" Railway transport - no, I have not heard "(C).

2. It is useful for you as a German to learn how the Wehrmacht in 1942 used the same tank group to attack Stalingrad and the North Caucasus at once. As a German, it is useful to know how the Wehrmacht in 1942 used the same tank group for offensive immediately to Stalingrad and the North Caucasus ".
******************************************************************************
You're right...

1. I completely forgot about the Soviet railway transport. Little of...

I have never even heard of the presence of the Luftwaffe and their air supremacy over the Red Army Air Force.

And, presumably, there are no obstacles for the "operational" transfer of your mechanized corps by railway transport to the "newly identified" directions (from the southwestern direction, where they were concentrated, to the western and northwestern directions) of the main attack of the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe formations would not render ...

2. Knowledge is always useful, especially for the "operator". And if we supplement them with the understanding of the "recognized" ...

With your kind help, for example, I found out about that the Nazis, during the beginning of the summer campaign, were conducting PLANNED offensive operations ...

During which, PART of one and the same tank group, which had already completed the task (as it seemed to the Nazis) in the North Caucasian direction, was transferred to the Stalingrad direction.

Moreover, in conditions when the planes of the front of the Red Army (340 against more than 1000 from the Germans) could not provide any serious opposition to this maneuver, all the more so, to disrupt it ...

But I'm forgiven. I am not a "operator" ...

[Operator]

The route speed of movement of military railway echelons is 50 km / h, nighttime at the end of July is 6 hours, the total mileage is 300 km, the possible distance of the strategic basing of mechanized corps of the Red Army from the state border is 500 km, the line of deployment of mechanized corps for counterattacks of the Wehrmacht tank groups is 200 km from the border.

For reference, the mechanized corps of the Kiev Special Military District, after the start of the war, moved under their own power in the daytime by +300 km in the immediate reach of the Luftwaffe and suffered losses along the way only from a technical malfunction.

PS The level of knowledge of arithmetic in Germany has become critically low

[ABC-schutze]

"PS The level of knowledge of arithmetic in Germany has become critically low ..."
************************************************* ***********************. However, in Germany, knowledge of algebra is fine ...

[Operator]

Judging by the Arab emigrants, SP-2 and the flight of the Bundeswehr from Afghanistan in Germany, a crisis with everything

[ABC-schutze]

"For the record, the mechanized corps of the Kiev Special Military District, after the start of the war, moved under their own power in the daytime by +300 km in the immediate reach of the Luftwaffe and suffered losses along the way only from a technical malfunction."
************************************************** **********************
Then, for the next "reference", you, as an "operator", still clearly decide on what your mechanized corps will "go" to the "newly identified direction" of the main attack ...

From one (South-West) theater to another (West or North-West).

If by rail, then you will have to return to the topic of the LORD of the Luftwaffe in the air that I have touched upon. Moreover, the "light time", at the end of July (these are your "clarifications", by the way ...), the German Fligers will have as much as 18 hours. In order to "clear" the way for your echelons ...

If "under its own power", then to the aforementioned 300 km. add another hundred and a half. And, accordingly, increase the losses of equipment from "technical malfunctions" by at least a third. But they will be bigger. Because they nonlinearly depend (increase) on the distance traveled. At least due to such a subjective factor as crew fatigue and errors caused by this fatigue. Incl. and driving errors

By the way, refuellers and re-bases, accompanying your corps armored vehicles, will also not be free from these "technical malfunctions" and errors. With what kind of fuel supply will you arrive at the deployment site for your "counterattack"? ..

But I have fears that your mechanized corps will move to the "newly revealed" direction in a "combined" way. That is to say, "caterpillars" - by rails, and "wheels" - by their own power ...

Approximately the way the 7th mechanized corps, in real life and in the situation, after two and a half days (if you count in hours ...) moved from the Moscow region to Minsk. That is to say, he began his advance on the evening of June 24th and arrived ("conditionally" ...) on the 26th ...

Moreover, the tank divisions of this mechanized corps, the readiness to conduct counterstrikes, gained only by June 29 ...

PS And in addition, 5 days ... By the way, at this new deployment site, these formations also took time to reconnoitre the terrain and the enemy. Without which, you, as an "operator", I hope you understand effective "counterstrikes" is difficult to apply ...

[Operator]

So you also don't know geography: the Bryansk-Oryol-Kursk region is located at a distance of 300 km both from the above-mentioned line of deployment of mechanized corps of the Red Army in the western direction, and from a similar line of deployment in the south-western direction. Plus, it is protected from a frontal impact by the Pinsk bogs, plus it has a developed railway network. Etc. etc.

PS Now it becomes clear to me. why did you lose WWII

[ABC-schutze]

"... within the immediate reach of the Luftwaffe and suffered losses ON THE WAY only from a technical malfunction."
************************************************** **********************
And in the course of their counterattacks? ..

[Operator]

In war as in war - with the advancement of the mechanized corps of the Red Army in the western direction, they would naturally suffer combat losses, but they themselves would inflict losses on two tank groups of the Wehrmacht, disrupting the German offensive in the main direction of the Barbarossa plan.

[ABC-schutze]

"1. As a result of the implementation of the Stalinist political directive" with little blood on foreign territory ", the Red Army did not have a single chance not only to stop the enemy's invasion forces, but also to significantly reduce the pace of its offensive in the strategic direction of Moscow.
2. PS The mistake of the General Staff of the RKKA with the determination of the strategic direction of the Wehrmacht offensive is a trifle of life, the mechanized corps are intended for operational maneuver, which have the ability to quickly transfer to the newly identified direction of the main attack. But only on one condition - every one of the mechanized corps should initially be in the strategic reserve of the defenders, and not on the front line (in the Brody and Rovno area in fact). "
************************************************** ****************
Is that all, "clipped", did you write? .. Exactly, as an "operator"? ..

Who determined the locations of the mechanized corps "in fact" in directions and theaters?

I do not understand your phrase "in the strategic reserve of the defenders" ...

Did you - the General Staff and other "operators" have a developed Strategic Defense plan? .. Or was JV Stalin supposed to develop it? ..

I heard about the plan to cover the border. About the strategic deployment plan too ... But about the Strategic Defense Plan developed by the "operators" (especially approved ...), please remind me. If it doesn't make it difficult ...

I believe that you will not pass off the Strategic Deployment Plan as such. Exactly, as an operator ...

To you, the General Staff and the "operators", with ridiculous references to the "installation" "with little blood and on foreign territory", who prevented JV Stalin from proposing the development of such a plan? ..

You were afraid to "upset the leader" "once again" by planning in advance "the transition of the Red Army to the defense"? ..

So it's in vain ...

Precisely taking into account the active participation of JV Stalin in the FORCED implementation of the PLANS for the creation of a "second industrial base" beyond the Urals. In other words, in the DEEP REAR ...

The decision on which was taken by the top political leadership of the USSR, "including" JV Stalin, taking into account the possible loss of a significant part of the Soviet industrial potential in the European part of the USSR, in the event of a war ... "loss" of significant territories. Don't believe me? ..

Another XNUMXth Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) adopted a resolution: "Taking into account the possibility of a MILITARY ATTACK from the capitalist states ... it is necessary, when developing a five-year plan, to pay maximum attention to the rapid development of those sectors of the national economy in general and industry in particular, which play the main role in ensuring defense capability and the economic stability of the country DURING WAR TIME ".

Moreover, in the report of I.V. Stalin made it clear about the inevitability of aggression by the capitalist world against the Soviet Republic, about the need to industrialize the country as the basis of its defense capability, and motorization of the army. It was I.V. Stalin promoted the idea "to create industrial centers BUT ON TERRITORIES UNAUTHORIZED FOR THE Enemy's Aviation".

The Urals eastern regions were given priority here as the most stable regions of the country, strategic strongholds.

More ... The military attaché of the American embassy reported on the dispatch from Moscow to the East of a significant number of machine tools and personnel ALREADY at the end of 1940 and the beginning of 1941.

And, presumably, not without the knowledge of JV Stalin, this is done by the "industrial" people's commissars.

And the General Staff of the Red Army and the "operators" at this time are still exclusively guided by the "installation" "with little blood and on foreign territory"? ..

This time ...

[Operator]

There are so many words for a fig?
You have obviously never worked in the central office of the People's Commissariat / Ministry, that is why you are so naive in the process of approving all kinds of documents, especially of a strategic nature.
An employee of the People's Commissariat / Ministry up to the top officials will never go against the guidelines of the higher leadership, otherwise he will immediately cease to be an employee of Central Asia. Therefore, all the plans of the NKO of the USSR, which were submitted to Stalin for approval, did not in the least contradict Stalin's directive "to fight with little blood on foreign territory."
In this connection, the line of deployment of the covering army of the Red Army was located right on the Soviet-German border.
But there were other Stalinist attitudes: "not to give in to provocations," "to protect the granary of Ukraine," and so on.

[ABC-schutze]

"An employee of the People's Commissariat / Ministry up to the top officials will never go against the directives of the higher leadership, otherwise he will immediately cease to be an employee of the Central Asia."
************************************************** ************
This is just your personal opinion, not an argument. I trust the People's Commissar Yakovlev, who asserted that "it was possible to argue with Stalin" ...

[Operator]

This is my knowledge as an employee of the Central Office, however.

[ABC-schutze]

With all due respect to you, as an employee of the central office, I still note ...

Knowledge does not replace the understanding that "go against the attitudes of higher management" and, tactfully, show reasonable initiative, backing it up with intelligible arguments, is not quite the same thing.

The proactive, well-reasoned proposal of the top MILITARY leadership of the Red Army to the country's leadership to develop a Strategic Defense Plan, as option "B" or "C" of a potentially possible scenario for the development of the military situation, does not in any way cancel the work in line with the already received instructions ...

[Operator]

Tactful is not about the central office.

[ABC-schutze]

The second ...

If the mechanized corps, according to the armchair constructions of the "operators", are still, in the absence of the Strategic Defense plan developed by the General Staff and proposed to the political leadership, "in ambush" on some deep "strategic defensive lines", and, presumably, "calmly awaiting" the command to advance to the POSSIBLE frontiers of COUNTER-strikes, in a certain, UNKNOWN "newly identified" direction, especially - MAIN, then THIS IS:

"The mechanized corps are designed for OPERATIVE MANEUVE, which have the ability to QUICKLY TRANSFER to the RE-DETECTED DIRECTION OF THE MAIN STRIKE" ..

WHAT DO YOU WRITE FOR? ..

What kind of "transfer"? .. Where and where are you talking about? ..

Especially when the topic of the REAL situation and actions of mechanized corps in the South-West theater is being discussed? ..

Mechanized corps, which received a REAL (not at all from J.V. Stalin) order to defeat the enemy, with a counterattack from the indicated lines and, then, RENDER ASSISTANCE to the Western Front? ..

Just in case, again, for you, your "clarifications" ...

Even BEFORE advancing the counterattack to the indicated lines, individual mechanized corps, in the South-West direction, on the march, lost up to 50% of the material part ...

[Operator]

Yes, at least 70% - the main thing is different: in June 1941, the mechanized corps of the Red Army entered the battle in the southwestern direction (due to their pre-war deployment), but were needed in the west.

[ABC-schutze]

"... but they were needed in the western one."
************************************************** *************
Sorry, but EXACTLY THIS mistake of the General Staff in determining the MAIN direction of the Hitlerites' strike, EXACTLY you, a couple of days earlier, designated as a "trifle" ...

[Operator]

Improve your knowledge of the Russian language - I spoke about the removal of the deployment of the mechanized corps of the Red Army in the rear area, which is equally accessible from the point of view of the railway. transport for the operational transfer of mechanized corps both to the west and to the south-west.

[ABC-schutze]

Third ...

"... when moving the mechanized corps of the Red Army to the western direction, they would naturally have suffered combat losses, but they themselves would have inflicted losses on two tank groups of the Wehrmacht, disrupting the German offensive in the main direction of the Barbarossa plan.

Is it yours? ..

So the 7th mechanized corps mentioned by me, and even not mentioned by me, the 5th mechanized corps (already from the Far East, and, precisely, by railway transport ...) moved to this most western direction. Moreover, namely, from the deep rear. And starting their marches to the lines of counterattacks, almost SYNCHRONOUS, with mechanized corps of the south-western direction ...

Alas, they inflicted combat losses on the Nazis, they themselves, turned out to be practically defeated, but the offensive of the Nazis in the MAIN direction was not "thwarted" in any way. Although, undoubtedly, they significantly "broke" his pace ...

The picture, in general, is the same as in the South-West direction ...

That. It was the General Staff and the People's Commissar of Defense (Timoshenko and Zhukov), who did not provide the development and approval of the Strategic Defense Plan of the Red Army and did not insist on the need to adopt such a plan, and not Stalin at all, are the main culprits of the HUGE LOSSES of personnel and equipment of the Red Army in the INITIAL period of the Great Patriotic War .. ...

Be such a plan, proposed by the General Staff, available, and "sit" on the aforementioned "lines of strategic defense", the mechanized corps, for the most part, in readiness to repel enemy strikes and participate in potential defensive BATTLES on the ALL WIDE front from Leningrad in the North-West , before ...??? on South.

THEN, THEN, I WOULD HAVE TO LEAVE THE ENEMY a significant part of the territory, but the LOSSES of the material and personnel of the Red Army would be, in the INITIAL period of the Great Patriotic War, an ORDER BELOW ..

Alas, nothing else, potentially possible, is being looked at by "non-operators" ...

[Operator]

In the western direction, the problem was not in the mechanized corps of the Red Army, but in their number compared to the two tank groups of the Wehrmacht.

PS What does not suit you in my avatar - apart from strategy and tactics in military affairs, the concepts of "operational art", "operation", "headquarters operators", etc. are used.

[ABC-schutze]

"PS What does not suit you so much in my avatar - apart from strategy and tactics in military affairs, the concepts of" operational art "," operation "," headquarters operators ", etc. are used."
************************************************** ***************
Any avatar suits me ...

I am not satisfied with the unprofessional attitude towards the topic of its speakers ...

In particular, extremely weakly motivated accusations for a professional operator against the top political leadership of the USSR and personally I.V. Stalin, with the task of removing responsibility for the losses of the Red Army in the INITIAL and the first period of the Great Patriotic War from the leadership of the Red Army ...

And, accordingly, to assign it to I.V. Stalin.

Just in case, I will note that the Soviet concept of "little blood and on foreign territory" itself, which provincial foolish "accusers" are trying to ridicule as a target setting, is absolutely flawless ...

Moreover, the United States, for example, today, having deployed hundreds of bases outside its borders, in principle, is trying to build its defense already 1000 miles from its borders ... And beat a potential enemy already there ...

Ie, in fact, to follow this very "shapkozakidatelskaya", Soviet, "Voroshilov-Stalinist" concept.

Only in incomparably more favorable conditions for them, including the initial conditions ...

[ABC-schutze]

Well, and of course, in addition to bases, putting forward its mobile and stationary strike potential as close as possible to the targets hit on the territory of potential adversaries ...

[Operator]

We are not talking about an abstract situation and not about the balance of forces of the US Armed Forces and the Armed Forces of other countries of the world as of today, but about the situation of 1941 RRKA vs Wehrmacht.

"With little blood on someone else's territory" - this is Stalin's Wishlist, which has nothing to do with the real state of affairs in the Red Army of 1941 in relation to the Wehrmacht.

[zenion]

Stalin received information not only from intelligence officers and the army, Stalin received information from literally all European countries from those who considered themselves to be either communists or sympathizers of the USSR. When Stalin asked - can you answer this message? The General Staff and others shrugged their shoulders and reassured Stalin that this was disinformation. And the chaos in the army was such that the neighbor on the right did not know what he should do with the neighbor on the left, because they were all at knives and did not believe that this would be done, so it was. When some fought off the enemy, others retreated. This is how the boilers turned out. But they could not suspect everyone, because there would be no one to fight with. All the generals would have surrendered. Therefore, near each there were guards who were not interested in the general's orders, but watched that he would not wash away. The generals had to fight.

[Denis812]

I do not understand, that is, stupid generals and smart Stalin?
Or clever generals and stupid Stalin?
The picture does not add up either way.
Errors in assessing the situation were there and there. Guilty all levels.
Stalin is more than anyone else, since at that time he was the leader of the country and was ultimately responsible for everything that happened.

[Illanatol]

for operational maneuver, the mechanized corps are intended, which have the ability to quickly transfer to the newly identified direction of the main attack.

Provided they are staffed, a sufficient supply and management system.
In terms of mobility, our mechanized corps had to match the enemy's shock formations.
What happened in practice?
For example, how many trucks did the Germans have, and how many do we have?
Not too much and maneuver in such conditions.
Also, when the enemy is dominant in the air, the chances of successful maneuvering by ground forces are very doubtful.

[Operator]

There is only one way to counterattack enemy tank and, moreover, motorized units of the enemy: by withdrawing your tank units to the rear in order to organize a counterattack in the direction of the enemy's main attack, which has already been spotted. If tank and motorized rifle units are located on the first line or close to it (as Stalin did before June 22, 1941), no amount of vehicles will help - the available time for transferring to the direction of the enemy's main attack will be zero.

As for the domination of the Luftwaffe in the air at the beginning of the war - and not a fig was to place the Red Army aviation on airfields near the border.

[Illanatol]

There is only one way to counterattack enemy tank and, moreover, motorized units of the enemy: by withdrawing your tank units to the rear in order to organize a counterattack in the direction of the enemy's main attack, which has already been spotted.

If they really are.
Firstly, a counter battle, a head-on counterattack is definitely not the most successful tactical decision.
It is much more profitable to hit the flank of the "wedge", but this requires sufficient mobility and good operational reconnaissance.
There was neither one nor the other.

As for the domination of the Luftwaffe in the air at the beginning of the war - and not a fig was to place the Red Army aviation on airfields near the border.

Perhaps I agree in part. The transfer of regiments would have reduced the losses of the Soviet Air Force, but the dominance of the Luftwaffe would not have canceled.
The enemy had superiority in materiel, organization, reconnaissance, supply, and air combat tactics.
Unlike England, we did not have the English Channel, which would give our pilots a head start.

[Operator]

Even the worst reconnaissance will determine the direction of the enemy's main attack after it starts, and even the most understaffed units will deliver a counterattack (especially on the enemy's flanks) - if they are located in the depth of the defense to be able to react in many directions of the main attack at once.

In the case of the USSR, the role of the English Channel was to be played by the depth of defense of the Red Army (we do not live in France): the location of field airfields behind the Western Dvina-Dnieper line would guarantee both the complete safety of Soviet aviation at the basing points and the delivery of air strikes against the enemy.

[Illanatol]

Even the worst reconnaissance will determine the direction of the enemy's main attack after it starts

After - it's too late. This is not a duel, the enemy will not wait.

In the case of the USSR, the role of the English Channel was to be played by the depth of defense of the Red Army (we don't live in France):

Exactly, not in France. What the hell is the depth of the defense, given the very modest resources and the total length of the border.

The range of the German aviation was greater: front-line bombers, fighters from the Hans flew further. As for the "long-range aviation", it was morally obsolete and had weak defensive weapons. Without fighter cover, it was doomed to heavy losses and had little chance of successfully completing combat missions.

[Operator]

After breaking through the defense, the enemy himself runs into a counterattack - provided that the counterattackers are well positioned in the depths of the defense, with cover from many directions at once.

Again, the attacker is forced to approach the defender's airfields and increase the distance to his airfields.

PS I still do not understand - do you regret that we have created a depth of defense in 1077 years, but there are no paddling pools?

[Illanatol]

After breaking through the defense, the enemy himself runs into a counterattack - provided that the counterattackers are well positioned in the depths of the defense, with cover from many directions at once.

1. On the breakthrough site, the attacking side creates a 5-10 fold advantage in strength. The offensive itself is preceded by intensive artillery preparation and treatment by ground attack aircraft.
The possibility of a successful counterattack in this case is close to zero.

2. If reserves capable of counterattacking are in such a "depth of defense" that they are inaccessible to enemy aircraft, they will simply be late, given that the real mobility of our formations was low. How many motorized infantry did we actually have?

Again, the attacker is forced to approach the defender's airfields and increase the distance to his airfields.

The airfields of the defending side in the offensive sector are priority targets, and a preemptive strike by bombers will be delivered against them.

PS I still do not understand - do you regret that we have created a depth of defense in 1077 years, but there are no paddling pools?

I still do not understand - what do you mean by "depth of defense"? Just our vast territory? Or is it a line of fortifications?
The territory itself is not considered a defense. This is not such an obstacle for a motorized adversary. And the factor of a large territory works in both directions - its vastness interferes with both its capture and defense (it is more difficult to predict the actions of the enemy).

When the enemy attacked us, the front line stretched out. This is more beneficial to the attacking side with strategic initiative and greater mobility.
When we went over to the general offensive (after the Battle of Kursk), the front line began to gradually shrink, which made it easier for the Germans to defend them (less front line - less forces for defense, more concentration of our troops, it is easier to predict the direction of the main attacks of the other side). But this did not help them and, in general, the pace of the Soviet offensive turned out to be higher.

[Operator]

Defense Depth is the distance from the border / front line to vital targets (not the length of the border / front).

You will decide - or the depth of defense contributes to the defense (see USSR) or not (see paddling pools)

[Illanatol]

Defense Depth is the distance from the border / front line to vital targets (not the length of the border / front).

Here's how. I'll know. But I know another meaning - this is the depth of the defense lines in the immediate front zone. Defensive fortifications were built in several lines, distant from each other (a classic example is the fortifications on the Kursk Bulge).
The rear lines were located so that the most long-range enemy artillery could not reach them. Depth - from the leading edge of the front to the last back line (30 km or more).

[

[Operator]

It is about the strategic depth of the country's defense.

[Olgovich]

the leadership of our country knew about the inevitability of a war with Germany, but believed that the beginning of the war would be associated with the outcome of future negotiations, during which ultimatum requirements may be presentedI am.

A strange certainty: the entire history of WWII, which ALREADY took place in May 1941, indicated that no negotiations and ultimatums were used before the invasion of European countries, and it is strange to expect this in relation to the USSR.

On June 1.06.1941, 9, the average manning of rifle divisions in the western districts was ZAPOVO - 327 XNUMX.
In the rifle divisions of the state 4/100 (the staff strength is 10 291 people. It was required to additionally call for training in the western districts of 138 559 appointees)

those. the understaffing is very small and, as we remember, no one complained in the first days of the war precisely about the shortage of personnel as the reason for the defeats, but about NOT bringing the formations into combat readiness, yes.

Below is a list of people who have visited Stalin's office since June 14. So, maybe there was no such conversation? Perhaps this is a deliberate distortion of information?

Maybe there was no TASS message of June 14? Maybe there was no record of the transfer of German troops to the borders of the USSR and the strict continuation of the USSR's compliance with the Non-Aggression Pact was not indicated (and this is instead of a logical reciprocal mobilization and bringing troops to combat readiness)? Maybe Stalin himself did not declare that he did not believe that Hitler, with his war in the west, would attack the USSR (the same Dimitrova)?

Maybe Stalin met only in his office, and, for example, no one was going to Kuntsevo? So, of course, there was a conversation, and this follows not only from Zhukov's memoirs.

Particularly unrealistic in this case was the planned deployment of army and front-line communications units, engineering troops, units and institutions of the rear, as well as providing cover armies with personnel, auto transport, artillery traction means (tractors), repair trains and other equipment necessary from the first minutes of the battle. ...

assigned vehicles, tractors and craftsmen from the national economy existed, as a rule, only on paper or were in unusable technical condition, communication means were simply not in the required amount, and the repair parts of fur and tank units, their number and composition, absolutely did not correspond to that huge amount equipment that was serviced, the shortage of the simplest and most necessary spare parts is simply catastrophic, it is well described by Rokossovsky in "Soldiers' Duty"

How adequate was Stalin?

Let's hear, 1937, Stalin's speech at the Military Council:

Rykov, Bukharin, Yenukidze, Karakhan, Rudzutak, Yagoda, Tukhachevsky, Yakir, Uborevich, Kork, Eideman, Gamarnik. 10 of them are spies.

Tukhachevsky .. A spy? Spy.

there is one experienced scout in Germany, in Berlin. That's when you might have to visit Berlin, Josephine Genzi, maybe some of you know. She is a beautiful woman. The scout is old. She recruited Karakhan. She recruited on the basis of the women’s unit. She recruited Yenukidze. She helped recruit Tukhachevsky. She is holding Rudzutaka in her arms. This is a very experienced scout, Josephine Genzi.

Yagoda is a spy and bred spies in his GPU.

Yenukidze and Karakhan both turned out to be spies.

Guy is a German-Japanese spy. Volovich is a German spy, he himself admits. This is what he did to Pauker - a German spy

Etc.,

And yes: in September 1939, a mobilized, belligerent army stood on the border of the USSR, and from that time on there SHOULD be the SAME army mobilized and in the same combat readiness.
And this decision is chitso political and it is not Zhukov's business to accept it, and there was enough time until 1941.

[strannik1985]

Strange confidence

It is quite difficult to predict the dizziness from the successes of the enemy, people consider it normal to avoid conflicts, and not start them.

but NOT casting

To bring it into combat readiness, you need to declare mobilization.

And yes: in September 1939 on the border of the USSR stood

It is not true, for example, in October 1940, the Germans had 30 formations in the theater of operations, including 25 infantry / security units. Until May 1941, the spacecraft in the first echelon of the covering armies (0-40 km from the border) had more formations (63 and 2 brigades) than the Germans (52).

[Olgovich]

Quote: strannik1985

people find it normal to avoid conflicts rather than start them.

Well? How did it work?

Quote: strannik1985

Mobilization must be declared to bring it to combat readiness

Mobilization, of course, had to be carried out

But this is not combat readiness: Halder writes that all parts of the Red Army have been caught in a FLASH. ALL strategic bridges were captured safe and sound, etc.

Do you need mobilization to prevent this?

Quote: strannik1985

It is not true, for example, in October 1940, the Germans had 30 formations in the theater of operations, including 25 infantry / security units. Until May 1941, the spacecraft in the first echelon of the covering armies (0-40 km from the border)more formations (63 and 2 brigades) than the Germans (52).

true.

Let me remind you that even in the conditions of the WAR, the Nazis went to Minsk at a speed of 70 km / day and it was already a day / two / three days to transfer a combat-ready army from the near west in peacetime, which happened in June.

Therefore, on the border there had to be an army equal in strength to the German army in the same state. Peacefulness only provokes a bandit, it has been proven long ago.

This is done all the time and by everyone, by the way, and today, to the advancement of NATO troops in the same Baltic states, responding Russian ones are deployed / formed, etc.

[strannik1985]

Well?

No, they were wrong. And you accuse from the position of afterthought. It makes no sense just keep a combat-ready army on the border, you need to fight for the strategic initiative, i.e. attack.

Do you need mobilization to prevent this?

And deployment.

Let me remind you that even in a WAR

You cringe, why?
Only mobile units could move at such a speed, at the beginning of the war 17 tank, 13 motorized, 1 cavalry divisions, infantry divisions marched at an average rate of 30 km / day, when of course they did not fight.

[Olgovich]

Quote: strannik1985

No, they were wrong. And you accuse from the position of afterthought.

Ah, wrong ... Someone recognized, answered? No? No.

It makes no sense to simply keep a combat-ready army on the border, you need to fight for the strategic initiative, that is, to attack.

As you can see, there was a sense. Alternative-summer disaster 41.

by the way, no one interfered with the attack on the world-recognized outcast, occupier and aggressor, especially when he went to France

Quote: strannik1985

And deployment

deploying for .. not being caught off guard? For the lack of bridges?
And WHO prevented them from preparing for the explosion, preparing engineering structures on all the highways along which the Wehrmacht rushed deep into the depths without hindrance from the first day? Non-deployment?

Quote: strannik1985

You cringe, why?
Only mobile units could move at such a speed, at the beginning of the war 17 tank, 13 motorized, 1 cavalry divisions, infantry divisions marched at an average rate of 30 km / day, when of course they did not fight.

the speed is indicated in the conditions of WAR, on broken roads.

what can we say about the possibility of transferring in non-combat conditions and plus by rail a large mass of troops to the border in a few days (which happened)?

[strannik1985]

No

For what? For the fact that Germany was not attacked just in case?

As you can see, there was a sense.

And again you judge from the position of after-knowledge. Who would have thought that Hitler would attack, regardless of the actions of the USSR, in order to deprive England of the last hope of resistance? With the Poles, negotiations on the Danzig corridor went on since 1938, with France and England, Germany was at war for 9 months by May 1940.

For the lack of bridges?

Well, yes, the situation changed very quickly, our units retreated from the encirclement across the bridges. During the war, bridges were captured more than once or twice.

what to say about the possibility

In fact, Guderian was advancing along the Minsk-Brest highway, gravel / concrete / asphalt in places.
In fact, divisions were transported to the East per hour by a teaspoon, in March 10, in April 15, in May 29. At the beginning of June, 81 units, we have 114 in the covering armies (0-100 km from the border). Who is going to attack whom?

[Olgovich]

Quote: strannik1985

For what? For the fact that Germany was not attacked just in case?

behind

Quote: strannik1985
No they were wrong

.
Or who should be counted for the mistakes of the management? Soldier?

Quote: strannik1985

And again you judge from the position of after-knowledge.

no, from the position of KNOWLEDGE of the ALREADY held History, incl. WWI history, when even the smarter Kaiser decided on 2 fronts, not like the frostbitten Hitler.

And the one who just did not learn the lessons of History was obliged to think, and seemed the most cunning to himself, yes.

Quote: strannik1985

Well, yes, the situation changed very quickly, our units retreated from the encirclement across the bridges. During the war, bridges were captured more than once or twice.

We are talking about STATEGIC bridges, which ALL were captured intact on the 1st and 2nd day of the war on the entire huge front-read Guderian.

Quote: strannik1985

In fact, Guderian was advancing along the Minsk-Brest highway, gravel / concrete / asphalt in places.

and?

Quote: strannik1985

In fact, the divisions were transported to the East per hour by a teaspoon, in March 10, on April 15, on May 29. At the beginning of June, 81 formations, we have 114 as part of the covering armies (0-100 km from the border).

take another 0-1000 km, yes.

And this is a "teaspoon": for the attack on the USSR by June 22, 1941, four army groups were created, totaling 157 divisions and 12 brigades. Taking into account the strategic reserve, the grouping for operations in the East consisted of 183 divisions and 13 brigades. turned out to be a sledgehammer, moreover, a huge mass was thrown from May 22 (the maximum reinforced schedule of railway transportation from this date), the possibility of which was neither taken into account nor leveled by preventive measures

[Foul skeptic]

no, from the position of KNOWLEDGE of the ALREADY held History, incl. the history of WWI, when even the smarter Kaiser decided on 2 fronts, not like the frostbitten Hitler.

1) Remind me, what was the reason for the start of Germany's hostilities against the Russian Empire in WWI? Not mobilization for an hour? Remind me, do you blame the USSR leadership for not mobilizing? And, at the same time, blame the lessons of history that have not been learned?
2) Did the Kaiser have a choice to decide / not to decide? If the war against Russia began, as the implementation of the gray-haired plan, according to which it was necessary to make one of the two inevitable fronts - in view of the Russian-French agreements. Remind, there were such agreements between France and the USSR? So why are you comparing non-identical situations?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

1) Remind me, what was the reason for the start of Germany's hostilities against the Russian Empire in WWI? Not mobilization for an hour?

The ALREADY mobilized and ALREADY belligerent army of Germany on the part of the leadership of the USSR did not cause not only war (as in WWI from Germany), but even ... reciprocal mobilization. Astounding blindness and deep ignorance of leadership

The unlearned lesson is the huge probability of a war in Germany on two fronts and the stupidest hope that, as Stalin said, two predators will fight in the West and slay each other, and the USSR will push one or the other.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Did the Kaiser have a choice to decide / not to decide?

of course, no one forced him to declare war on Russia, except for his stupidity.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

If the war against Russia began, as the implementation of the gray-haired plan, according to which it was necessary to make one of the two inevitable fronts - in view of the Russian-French agreements.

now state your "thought" in Russian

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Remind, there were such agreements between France and the USSR?

Such things could be known: the French-Soviet Pact of Mutual Assistance of 1935 is a formal, but justification for assistance.

But it was not required, because Hitler was ALREADY recognized by the whole world as an aggressor and any struggle against him was welcomed.

But the point is not in him, but in the fact ALREADY known in 1939-40: Russia NEEDS a living warring France, as a lightning rod for the main strike of Germany

[Foul skeptic]

The ALREADY mobilized and ALREADY belligerent army of Germany on the part of the leadership of the USSR did not cause not only war (as in WWI from Germany), but even ... reciprocal mobilization. Astounding blindness and deep ignorance of leadership

Again you are operating with afterthought, and not

position of KNOWLEDGE of ALREADY held History, incl. WWI history

the army of Austria-Hungary, already mobilized and already fighting against Serbia, caused mobilization from the Russian Empire. How did it end to remind?

The unlearned lesson is the huge probability of a war in Germany on two fronts and the stupidest hope that, as Stalin said, two predators will fight in the West and slay each other, and the USSR will push one or the other.

1) WWI showed what a war on two fronts means for Germany.
2) Do you reproach the country's leadership for the lack of psychic abilities?

of course, no one forced him to declare war on Russia

He was forced by the understanding that since war is inevitable, then it is necessary to seize the initiative. Exactly what you "demand" from the leadership of the USSR.

now state your "thought" in Russian

It is presented in Russian.

Such things could be known: the Soviet-French pact of mutual assistance of 1935 is formalbut the rationale for help.

I seem to have written clearly

Remind between France and the USSR similar agreements were

And you are writing to this request about the 1935 agreement? True, adding the word bashfully - formal.

Hitler was ALREADY recognized as an aggressor by the whole world and any struggle against him was welcomed.

Leave fairy tales about the whole world for the children.

But the point is not in him, but in the fact ALREADY known in 1939-40: Russia NEEDS a living warring France, as a lightning rod for the main strike of Germany

Yes, it's a matter of well-known facts: in 1939, even being at war, and acting as a party that declared war ... France did not fight for 9 months
So what kind of "belligerent" France are you talking about?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Again you are operating with afterthought,

The history of WWII in 1939 is KNOWN

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

the army of Austria-Hungary, already mobilized and already fighting against Serbia, caused mobilization from the Russian Empire. How did it end to remind?

only the declared mobilization of Russia (legal in response to Avengria against Russia ALSO) caused a war on the part of Germany.

In 1939 -41, a fully mobilized German army was ALREADY on the border, and in response ... nothing

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

1) WWI showed what a war on two fronts means for Germany.
2) Do you reproach the country's leadership for the lack of psychic abilities?

WWII showed what it means NOT TO KNOW the lessons of WWII-cm on June 22.
This is the accusation, not the reproach.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

He was forced by the understanding that since war is inevitable, then it is necessary to seize the initiative. Exactly what you "demand" from the leadership of the USSR.

Yes, you are talking nonsense: nothing forced him, and Germany was thirsty for the war ITSELF, was its initiator and she did not need to intercept anything.
She pushed in the back of Avengria and could stop everything at any moment.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

It is presented in Russian.

no

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

I seem to have written clearly

I seem to have written clearly: I am not interested in the fact that you write and write what I consider necessary

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Leave fairy tales about the whole world for the children

march to school with children!

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Yes, it's a matter of well-known facts: in 1939, even being at war, and acting as a party that declared war ... France did not fight for 9 months
therefore what "belligerent"France are you talking about?

didn't get it?

About that France / England, which pulled the main blow of Germany on itself in WWI and suffered the main losses of the war, thanks to Russia, which saved it in 1914 for YOURSELF

Therefore, the USSR also needed France in WWII more than the French themselves.

But someone the most cunning sat and rubbed their hands contentedly, watching the two mperialists mutuz each other and thought to pull all the chestnuts out of the fire. Yeah ...

[Foul skeptic]

The history of WWII in 1939 is KNOWN

And the history of WWII in 1939 is not known, and in 2021 it is known. This is what you are told.

only the declared mobilization of Russia (legal in response to Avengria against Russia ALSO) caused a war on the part of Germany

1) What you are told - the example of WWI showed that mobilization provokes war.
2) With an alternative history to other interlocutors. "The regulation on the preparatory period for the war" was introduced by Nikolai on 25 July. Until Serbia refused by ultimatum. After the refusal, on July 25, Austria-Hungary announced the beginning of mobilization from July 28. And only buildings on the southern borders, not the eastern ones. On July 26, a partial mobilization is already underway in the Kiev, Odessa, Moscow and Kazan military districts.

In 1939 -41, a fully mobilized German army was ALREADY on the border, and in response ... nothing

The alternate history is not for me. Even on VO, a whole cycle of articles has been chewed about the state of affairs in the border areas.

you are talking nonsense: nothing made him

What does Russia's declaration of war on Austria-Hungary mean for Germany?

Germany craved for ITSELF

Wars against Russia? What for?

march to school with children!

Won't you settle down? Then prove your words:

Hitler was ALREADY recognized as an aggressor by the whole world and any struggle against him was welcomed.

About that France / England, which pulled the main blow of Germany on itself in WWI and suffered the main losses of the war, thanks to Russia, which saved it in 1914 for YOURSELF
Therefore, the USSR also needed France in WWII more than the French themselves.

Does your childish maximalism somehow correlate with reality? You are equating WWII France, which was at war, with WWII France, which ... did not fight. And also this France before that propelled the USSR in negotiations. And even before that, France abandoned the USSR with the help of Czechoslovakia. What are you talking about?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

And the history of WWII in 1939 is not known, but in 2021 it is known

you need to hit your forehead twice in order to reach the 1st lesson, but no one

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

1) What you are told - the example of WWI showed that mobilization provokes war.

you THREE times pointed out the fact that even MOBILIZED and WARRIING Germany on the border of the USSR ... did not receive any war from the USSR and even a logical response mobilization.

WHEN will it come?

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

2) With an alternative history to other interlocutors.

so go to your place. Mobilization of Austria from 26 July. Everything else is the answer

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

The alternate history is not for me. Even on VO, a whole cycle of articles has been chewed about the state of affairs in the border areas.

You don't need anyone, you impose yourself, Forgot?
The cycle confirms my words

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

What does Russia's declaration of war on Austria-Hungary mean for Germany?

what, uh, Russia's declaration of war on Austria-Hungary?

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Won't you settle down? Then prove your words:

to school - with children, at the desk!
the war on September 3 was declared to the Germans by France, England, Australia, Canada, India, the USA condemned and passed a law on the change of neutrality.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

You are equating WWII France, which was at war, with WWII France, which ... did not fight.

When they went to her in May 1940, as in 1914 she fought.
Only the cunning one, instead of the East Prussian operation, congratulated Hitler with the capture of Paris

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

And this France had previously promoted the USSR in negotiations.

Who is to blame for the fact that they feared the USSR a little less than Germany?
And for good reason: see Finland and the Baltics

[Foul skeptic]

you THREE times pointed out the fact that even MOBILIZED and WARRIING Germany on the border of the USSR ... did not receive any war from the USSR and even a logical response mobilization.
WHEN will it come?

About "Germany at war on the border of the SSSR" did you even understand what you wrote, did you try to think about it? But that's okay. Do you have Germany mobilized on the border with the USSR in 1939?

Again you are operating with afterthought,

fool The history of WWI in 1939 is KNOWN

That you are bouncing here and there along the timeline.

Mobilization of Austria from 26 July. Everything else is the answer

What's the rest? Are you lost on the timeline? Do you understand the process? There is a gap in time between the announcement of mobilization and its completion. The premature start of a partial mobilization of Austria from July 26, and not 28 is a response to the Serbs, who began their mobilization on July 26, and a response to Russia, which began a partial mobilization on July 25, and on 26 it was already in full swing.

The cycle confirms my words

In a parallel universe

What does Russia's declaration of war on Austria-Hungary mean for Germany?

what, uh, Russia's declaration of war on Austria-Hungary?

Actually, this is a question for this

Quote: Olgovich

nothing made him

That is why I am asking you, if Russia declares war on Austria-Hungary, what will this mean strategically for Germany? Well, you can argue the same?

the war on September 3 was declared to the Germans by France, England, Australia, Canada, India, the USA condemned and passed a law on the change of neutrality.

AND? France, the USA and England with dominions are

Hitler ALREADY the whole world was recognized as the aggressor and any struggle against him was welcomed.

Can you list the fascist, pro-fascist, sympathetic, neutral states?

When they went to her in May 1940, as in 1914 she fought

Tell the fans of alternative history about "as in 1914".
Oh, when they went ... And nothing that she has to go, she declared war herself?

Who is to blame for the fact that they feared the USSR a little less than Germany?
And for good reason: see Finland and the Baltics

See chronology. Finland and the Baltics are events after "kidka" from France.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

About "Germany at war on the border of the SSSR" did you even understand what you wrote, did you try to think about it? But that's okay. Do you have Germany mobilized on the border with the USSR in 1939?

you at least think for yourself, which is hardly possible.

And yes, just like that: a belligerent (that is, always combat-ready and cm39-41gg) and mobilized (that is, at any time in battle, anywhere) army on the border of the unmobilized USSR of the unprepared USSR

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

That you are bouncing here and there along the timeline.

see YOUR question

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

What's the rest? Are you lost on the timeline? Do you understand the process? There is a gap in time between the announcement of mobilization and its completion. The premature start of a partial mobilization of Austria from July 26, and not 28 is a response to the Serbs, who began their mobilization on July 26, and a response to Russia, which began a partial mobilization on July 25, and on 26 it was already in full swing.

Serbia's ultimatum from AVengria on 23 July.

from the Journal of the General Staff Committee "of July 25, evening,

"According to the information received in Austria-Hungary and Italy, some preparatory actions for mobilization are already being carried out, why the emperor was pleased to approve the resolution of the Council of Ministers that on the night of comes pre-mobilization period ... Should it prove necessary to announce mobilization, then, having in mind the need to limit ourselves to actions against only one Austria-Hungary, the highest commanded to mobilize the Kiev, Odessa, Kazan and Moscow military districts.

July 25 Austria-Hungary announces partial mobilization from 28 July.

July 26 Serbia announces mobilization.

July 26 in response For Austrian mobilization, Russia also begins partial mobilization in the Kiev, Odessa, Moscow and Kazan military districts.

dawned not?

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

In a parallel universe

you have a parallel universe.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

That is why I ask you, if Russia declares war Austria-Hungary, what will this mean strategically for Germany?

And if not? With WHAT will he announce the fright, I ask again? Well,

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

can you reason?

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

AND? France, the USA and England with dominions are
Hitler was ALREADY recognized as an aggressor by the whole world and any struggle against him was welcomed

exactly!

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Tell the fans of alternative history about "as in 1914".
Oh, when they went ... And nothing that she has to go, she declared war herself?

the alternative is your everything, and went to 1940 same, as in 1914 - at school they will explain to you.

To whom.... should? What?

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

See chronology. Finland and the Baltics are the events after the "kidka" from France.

and the cominterns with their revolutions, the savage antihuman horror of 1930-1939, is all DO.

Therefore, they feared a little less than Hitler, which was confirmed by the priests and the Finns 39-40

[Foul skeptic]

25 July Austria-Hungary announces partial mobilization from 28 July.
July 26 Serbia announces mobilization.
On July 26, in response to the Austrian mobilization, Russia also begins partial mobilization in the Kiev, Odessa, Moscow and Kazan military districts.
dawned not?

Of course, it didn’t come to the fore why you pass off the beginning of mobilization against Serbia as mobilization against Russia.

And if not? With WHAT will he announce the fright, I ask again? Well,

Because it was necessary to correct the reputation losses. Can I tell you what is entrenched in Russian historiography under the term "diplomatic Tsushima"? Because it was necessary to solve the problem with the Danube controlled by Austria-Hungary, which was the bread artery of Europe. And this is the tip of the iceberg.
Therefore, we leave from "if ... no" and come to "if ... yes". Now it's your turn to answer

if Russia declares war on Austria-Hungary, what will this mean strategically for Germany?

exactly!

What exactly is it? Is the USA, England with dominions and France the whole world? Well, maybe for you - yes, I do not know the degree of your servility,

and went to 1940 in the same way as in 1914 - at school they will explain to you.

Whom .... should I? fool What?

1) Did you go in 1939? And in 1940, where did they go? If the Germans were already moving through the territory of France on May 14, being the attacking side, and the French command in Paris until May 20 did not react at all to what was happening, the military floundered on their own, flashing their heels after the 15th.
2) It should be common sense - or would you say that for a country declaring war it is typical behavior not to conduct hostilities? Oh, she owes nothing to anyone ... You have picked up a good ally.

cominterns with their revolutions

Horror story for children. The Comintern of the 30s is not the Comintern of the 20s, but since the mid-30s it has been a guaranteed ally in the fight against fascism. Well, this is if someone is interested in the fight against fascism.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Of course it didn't.

but it should come that you DO NOT know either the dates or the sequence of events, i.e. NOTHING, but you climb into the "profound" conclusions.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Because it was necessary to correct the reputation losses.

those. one TATTOO you have as a justification.

Russia has NOT declared war on Avengria is an iron FACT. Leave the chatter to yourself.

There is nothing to answer.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Is the USA, England with dominions and France the whole world?

yes, this is Austria and India and Canada and China, and what is considered the "world" in your country?

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Where did they go in 1940?

to the same place as in 1914

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Common sense should

what do you have to do with common sense?

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Horror story for children. The Comintern of the 30s is not the Comintern of the 20s, but since the mid-30s it has been a guaranteed ally in the fight against fascism. Well, this is if someone is interested in the fight against fascism.

nobody canceled their programs. And the wild, beyond human comprehension, the horror of 1930-39 was not a secret for the world.
In 1939, there were 30 times more prisoners in Soviet camps (in sentences.

[Foul skeptic]

but it should come that you DO NOT know either the dates or the sequence of events, i.e. NOTHING, but you climb into the "profound" conclusions.

Why do you pass off the beginning of mobilization against Serbia as mobilization against Russia?

those. one TATTOO you have as a justification.
Russia has NOT declared war on Avengria is an iron FACT. Leave the chatter to yourself.
There is nothing to answer.

1) For you, this is chatter, because in the sources of information you have not advanced further than Wikipedia and LJ

N.M. Yanushkevich brought to the attention of the committee members that Nikolai II recognized it necessary to support Serbia, "at least for this it was necessary to declare mobilization and start hostilities, but not before the Austrian troops crossed the Serbian border."

2) You are not asked whether the AVI declared war on the Republic of Ingushetia or did not declare it in a fait accompli. You are asked

if Russia declares war on Austria-Hungary, what will this mean strategically for Germany?

yes, this is Austria and India and Canada and China, and what is considered the "world" in your country?

1) For me the WHOLE world is the WHOLE world.
2) Australia, India, Canada this is "England with dominions".
3) Do not download on the timeline. To remind you that the time frame for your "condemnation of not the USSR attack on Germany" is from 09.1939 to 22.06.1941.

Quote: Olgovich

the war on September 3 was declared to the Germans by France, England, Australia, Canada, India, the USA condemned and passed a law on the change of neutrality.
Hitler was ALREADY recognized as an aggressor by the whole world and any struggle against him was welcomed.

Therefore, which China in this interval recognized Germany as the aggressor for the events in Europe?

to the same place as in 1914

Oh, you again ignore the inconvenient ... So I will remind

Did you go in 1939?

And I will continue. In 1914, French troops crossed the border with Germany in August and attacked Mühlhausen and Saarburg. In 1940, French troops also crossed the German border in May? What else can you think of instead of just admitting that you were wrong?

what do you have to do with common sense?

For a country declaring war, is it typical behavior not to engage in hostilities?

nobody canceled their programs. And the wild, beyond human comprehension, the horror of 1930-39 was not a secret for the world.
In 1939, there were 30 times more prisoners in Soviet camps (in sentences.

Oh, they decided to expand the horror story for children. The Comintern of the 30s is not the Comintern of the 20s, but since the mid-30s it has been a guaranteed ally in the fight against fascism. Well, this is if someone is interested in the fight against fascism.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Why do you issue

What, it’s a shame to admit that I’m ignorant — you don’t know the dates or the sequence of events on July 14. But how much "thoughtfulness."

Shame ...

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

For you this is chatter

empty chatter and speculation.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

You are not asked whether the AVI declared war on the Republic of Ingushetia or did not declare it in a fait accompli. You are asked

I am more than happy to answer your questions "would".
Guess on chamomile

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

For me the WHOLE world is the WHOLE world.

he condemned, yes

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Australia, India, Canada this is "England with Dominions"

yes, and this is already half the world

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Do not download on the timeline. To remind you that the time frame for your "condemnation of not the USSR attack on Germany" is from 09.1939 to 22.06.1941.

China already fought with Germany's ally Japan, Hitler recognized Manchukuo that imported relations, and at the beginning of WWII they stopped altogether

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

B 1914 B 1940

And in 1914 and in 1940 Germany attacked the territory of France, remember and do not disgrace

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

For a country declaring war, is it typical behavior not to engage in hostilities?

A WWII-typical war?

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Oh, they decided to expand the horror story for children. The Comintern of the 30s, this is not the Comintern of the 20s, but from the middle of the 30s

the Comintern is an igil under the cover of the country.

And the wild, beyond human comprehension, the horror of 1930-39 was not a secret for the world.
In 1939, there were 30 times more prisoners in Soviet camps (in sentences.

Who, in a HEALTHY mind, will contact?

[Foul skeptic]

What, it’s a shame to admit that I’m ignorant — you don’t know the dates or the sequence of events on July 14. But how much "thoughtfulness." lol
Shame ...

You have a sequence, refute it.
Instead, you get personal. Because in essence there is nothing to say.

idle chatter and speculation.

Well, give arguments to support your words.

I am more than happy to answer your questions "would".

That is, you cannot answer? Then why did you decide that your opinion has a prerogative over the opinion of others?

For me the WHOLE world is the WHOLE world.

he condemned, yes

Prove it.

yes, and this is already half the world

1) Ah, half the world ... That is, not the whole world already Then why did you disagree when you were told that the countries you mentioned are not the whole world?
2) These "half the world" is a community around one country, whose authority they recognize over themselves and swear allegiance to the queen. And you know that.

China had already fought with Germany's ally Japan, Hitler recognized Manchukuo, which imported relations, and at the beginning of WWII they stopped altogether

You were asked about a specific thing - show a diplomatic document before December 1941, in which China recognizes Germany as an aggressor

And in 1914 and in 1940 Germany attacked the territory of France, remember and do not disgrace

And where does Germany? It's about the actions of France. They wrote to you quite specifically

Quote: A vile skeptic

And I will continue. In 1914 French troops in August crossed the border with Germany and attacked Mühlhausen and Saarburg. In 1940 French troops in May also crossed the German border? What else can you think of instead of just admitting that you were wrong?

And yes? I have to repeat myself - what is there in 1939? )))

A WWII-typical war?

1) When France declared war on Germany - it was not WWII, it became such in historiography much later.
2) And what is atypical about it, which should influence whether the state that has declared war is conducting or not conducting hostilities against the one against whom it itself has declared war?

the Comintern is an igil under the cover of the country.

And the wild, beyond human comprehension, the horror of 1930-39 was not a secret for the world.
In 1939, there were 30 times more prisoners in Soviet camps (in sentences.

Who, in a HEALTHY mind, will contact?

Leave children's horror stories for peers. The Comintern of the 30s is not the Comintern of the 20s, but since the mid-30s it has been a guaranteed ally in the fight against fascism. Well, this is if someone is interested in the fight against fascism.
Leave the manipulation with the number of prisoners in concentration camps for them.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

You have a sequence, refute it.
Instead, you get personal. Because in essence there is nothing to say.

1 you have the correct sequence, where Russia answers.
2 I don’t see a person, I don’t go over, I don’t give up.
3 Everything is said, you are zero.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Well, give arguments to support your words.

in response to what? To ... idle chatter? NOT to answer.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

I am more than happy to answer your questions "would".

That is, you cannot answer?

the answer is clear - I don't care about your "would": guess , if you like, ON A CHAMOMILE. I'm not interested in WHAT is not clear?

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Prove it.

countries are given.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

1) Ah, half the world ... That is, not the whole world already Then why did you disagree when you were told that the countries you mentioned are not the whole world?

England with India and other dominions, half the world, do not know how to read?

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

You were asked about a specific thing - show a diplomatic document before December 1941, in which China recognizes Germany as an aggressor

with the beginning of WWII, China's cooperation with Germany was completely curtailed

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

And where does Germany? Speech on the actions of France

Germany is advancing, France is defending - that's all actions 14 and 40.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

1) When France declared war on Germany - it was not WWII, it became such in historiography much later.

it was WWII since September 3 and its essence has not changed over time

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

And what is atypical about it, what should influence whether a state that has declared war is conducting or not conducting hostilities against the one against whom it itself has declared war?

all. Starting with the Nazi regime, the aggressor, cruelty, etc., etc.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Leave children's horror stories for peers. The Comintern of the 30s is not the Comintern of the 20s, but since the mid-30s it has been a guaranteed ally in the fight against fascism. Well, this is if someone is interested in the fight against fascism.
Leave the manipulation with the number of prisoners in concentration camps for them.

the Comintern is an igil under the cover of the country.

And the wild, beyond human comprehension, the horror of 1930-39 was not a secret for the world.
In 1939, there were 30 times more prisoners in Soviet camps than in German camps, yes.

Who, in a HEALTHY mind, will contact?

would you contact

[Foul skeptic]

1 you have the correct sequence, where Russia answers.
2 I don’t see a person, I don’t go over, I don’t give up.
3 Everything is said, you are zero.

Answers what? Mobilization on the border with Serbia?

in response to what? To ... idle chatter? foolNOT to answer.

It was written to you, you ignored it. Explain why this is ... idle chatter and speculation:

N.M. Yanushkevich brought to the attention of the committee members that Nikolai II recognized it necessary to support Serbia, "at least for this it was necessary to declare mobilization and start hostilities, but not before the Austrian troops crossed the Serbian border."

And then let's go directly to the authors of the works on PMA. Tell about their chatter and speculation.

the answer is clear - do not care about your "would": guess, if you like, ON A CHAMOMILE. I'm not interested in WHAT is not clear?

That is, there is no answer to the question from you. How ugly.

countries are given.

There is no proof that these countries are the whole world.

England with India and other dominions, half the world, do not know how to read?

Yeah .. and since they already have the whole world with the USA and France, the USA and France are also half the world

with the beginning of WWII, China's cooperation with Germany was completely curtailed

1) Confirm your words with documents on trade for previous years (up to 1937) and in WWII
2) Show a diplomatic document before December 1941, in which China recognizes Germany as an aggressor

Germany is advancing, France is defending - that's all actions 14 and 40

This is wrong. In 1914 first attacking hostilities on the Western Front, the Germans held against the Belgians, not against the French - from 4 to 7 August they took Liege. French people first attacking hostilities in this war they fought against the Germans on August 7 at Mühlhausen. Further, in Saarburg. The first COUNTER-ATTACK of the Germans against the French was on August 9, when they recaptured Mühlhausen. Where in 1940 did the French attack the Germans first and they were forced to retreat and then counterattack?
Yes, and what has happened since 1939 in the end?

it was WWII since September 3 and its essence has not changed over time

Show me a document, even the press, from 3.09.1939/1940/XNUMX (until the summer of XNUMX), where the declaration of war by England / France on Germany is called world war. It is called a strange war, world ...

all. Starting with the Nazi regime, the aggressor, cruelty, etc., etc.

You were asked about a specific thing

And what is atypical about it, what should have an impact on whether the state that has declared war is or is not conducting military operations against the one against whom it itself has declared war?

How does the Nazi regime or not affect whether hostilities are being conducted or not?
What supernatural cruelty did Germany have against France from the fall of 1939 to the summer of 1940? Tell you about the cruelty in the wars in Asia so that you understand what real cruelty is?
You did not name anything that influences whether a state that has declared war is or does not conduct hostilities against the one against whom it itself has declared war

the Comintern is an igil under the cover of the country.

And the wild, beyond human comprehension, the horror of 1930-39 was not a secret for the world.
In 1939, there were 30 times more prisoners in Soviet camps than in German camps, yes.

Who, in a HEALTHY mind, will contact?

would you contact

Leave children's horror stories for peers. The Comintern of the 30s is not the Comintern of the 20s, but since the mid-30s it has been a guaranteed ally in the fight against fascism. Well, this is if someone is interested in the fight against fascism.
Leave the manipulation with the number of prisoners in concentration camps for them.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Answers what? Mobilization on the border with Serbia?

on the mobilization of Avengria, the largest powerhouse in Europe with Russia

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

It was written to you, you ignored it.

and it is written to you - your THOUGHTS are not interesting

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Explain why this is ... idle chatter and speculation

this has nothing to do with you: Avengria struck Serbia, and Russia did not strike Avengria, this is just a FACT

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

And then let's go directly to the authors of the works on PMA. Tell about their chatter and speculation.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

1) Confirm your words with documents on trade for previous years (up to 1937) and in WWII

go to and on -sites.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

2) Show a diplomatic document before December 1941, in which China recognizes Germany as an aggressor

termination of cooperation with her is enough

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

That is, there is no answer to the question from you.

he, as always, did not reach you the first time, I repeat: leverage your "would": guess, if you like, on a daisy. I do not participate in your fortune-telling.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

There is no proof that these countries are the whole world.

are given

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

This is wrong. In 1914, the first

that's it: the Germans are advancing in france both in 1914 and in 1940 - this is the main meaning of events

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Show me a document, even the press, from 3.09.1939/1940/XNUMX (until the summer of XNUMX), where the declaration of war by England / France on Germany is called world war. It is called a strange war, world ...

ESSENCE it is, and I think there is also in the press, but looking for you is a lot of honor to you

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

How does the Nazi regime or not affect whether hostilities are being conducted or not?
What supernatural cruelty did Germany have against France from the fall of 1939 to the summer of 1940? Tell you about the cruelty in the wars in Asia so that you understand what real cruelty is?
You did not name anything that influences whether a state that has declared war is or does not conduct hostilities against the one against whom it itself has declared war

1. named

2. There are NO mandatory rules behavior for a state that has declared war.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Leave children's horror stories for peers. The Comintern of the 30s is not the Comintern of the 20s, but since the mid-30s it has been a guaranteed ally in the fight against fascism. Well, this is if someone is interested in the fight against fascism.
Leave the manipulation with the number of prisoners in concentration camps for them.

you would be in the top three and in a concentration camp, kid.

you still haven't answered the question. As always.

[Foul skeptic]

on the mobilization of Avengria, the largest powerhouse in Europe with Russia

In 1908, Russia ... was not mobilized for the mobilization of Avengria, the largest European power on the border with Russia, on the borders with Serbia.

this has nothing to do with you: Avengria struck Serbia, and Russia did not strike Avengria, this is just a FACT

Space is cold and water is wet. The facts in the answers should be relevant to the questions being asked. The fact is that Sazonov to Poklevsky, who is in Bucharest, in telegram No. 1541 of July 29.07, directly says that Russia is going to fight with Austria-Hungary for Serbia and therefore it is necessary to prepare Bratian for the fact that Romania can endure benefits for itself if it fights together with Russia.

go to and to -sites

Nothing new under the moon - to get worn out, but what about confirming your words ... so immediately insults.

termination of cooperation with her is enough

1) Not enough - this is not a declaration of the aggressor
2) The relationship was closed by the German side
3) Attempts to establish trade cooperation ceased only in 1941
4) China was a fragmented country in a state of civil war and intervention, so tell us about the end of cooperation with each side

he, as always, did not reach you the first time, I repeat: leverage your "would": guess, if you like, on a daisy. I do not participate in your fortune-telling.

This sentence does not answer the question

if Russia declares war on Austria-Hungary, what will this mean strategically for Germany?

It answers the question - can you analyze and, in case of an error, admit it. The answer is you can't.

are given

No. Copy the part of your message that contains such "proof" that the listed countries are the whole world.

this is so: the Germans are advancing in France both in 1914 and in 1940 - this is the main point of events

Again, you divert the conversation from the actions of the French to the actions of the Germans, and the main point is the actions of the side that declared war, we are considering the typicality of their actions, not German ones. So how, will you show the French offensive against the Germans in 1939-1940? I cannot understand your stubbornness ... The whole world recognizes the events of 1939-1940 as a "strange" war precisely because of its atypicality, no one calls the events of 1914 that. But here, too, you will present yourself in an unattractive light, just not to admit your mistakes.

ESSENCE it is, and I think there is also in the press, but looking for you is a lot of honor to you

1) Give a definition of the ESSENCE of world war, then we'll see.
2) Show me a document, even the press, from 3.09.1939/1940/XNUMX (until the summer of XNUMX), where the declaration of war by England / France on Germany is called world war.

1. named

2. There are NO mandatory rules of conduct for a state that has declared war.

1) not named, copy your text, where "named"
2) How does the Nazi regime or not affect whether hostilities are being conducted or not?
3) What supernatural cruelty of Germany towards France from autumn 1939 to summer 1940?
4) I am not asking you about the rules, but about typical / non-typical - the behavior of France since September 1939 is typical for a country that declared the first war and is not at war with the country that it declared war on?

you would be in the top three and in a concentration camp, kid.

you still haven't answered the question. As always.

My stay in the camp will not change what you have written about the "concentration camps" manipulation.
When you answer the questions that were asked to you first in relation to yours (and answer the question, and not just write any heresy in response), then stutter about "no answers" to you.
And, yes - about "as always" - a lie.
And yes - get answers

Who, in a HEALTHY mind, will contact?
would you contact

1) The one to whom the peace on the continent is more important, and not the financial groups, will be contacted.
2) I would contact.
PS Expect manipulation from you, that if I would contact, then I am not in my right mind?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

In 1908, Russia ... was not mobilized for the mobilization of Avengria, the largest European power on the border with Russia, on the borders with Serbia.

and lost.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

The fact is that Sazonov to Poklevsky, who is in Bucharest, in telegram No. 1541 of July 29.07, directly says that Russia is going to fight with Austria-Hungary for Serbia and therefore it is necessary to prepare Bratian for what Romania can endure for itself if it fights together with Russia.

so telegrams and conversations, assumptions, suggestions-weight... And the fact of the real ACTION of Russia-ONE, and against him, what, apart from chatter, can you, not powerful?

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

And space is cold

Nope.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Nothing new under the moon - to get worn out, but what about confirming your words ... so immediately insults.

you have been given the correct information, go and educate yourself on the sites, to confirm it is a lot of honor for you, but what do you think about it, do not care, and no one touched you

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Not enough

enough

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

The relationship was wrapped up by the German side
3) Attempts to establish trade cooperation ceased only in 1941
4) China was a fragmented country in a state of civil war and intervention, so tell us about the end of cooperation with each side

Well, we read something.
terminated mutually: the Germans are allies of the belligerent Japan and recognized those who cannot be recognized.
Terminated with the BEGINNING of WWII

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Again you divert the conversation from the actions of the French to the actions of the Germans, and main meaning - actions of the side that declared war, we we consider the typicality of their actions, not German ones.

the main meaning is determined by me and "we" does not apply to me, what's wrong with you?

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

The whole world recognizes the events of 1939-1940 as a "strange" war precisely because of its atypicality, no one calls the events of 1914 that way. But here, too, you will present yourself in an unattractive light, just not to admit your mistakes.

where is the mistake: in the offensive against France in 1914 and 1940 (almost even there)?
So go to school.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Give the definition of the ESSENCE of world war, then we'll see.

https://ru.wikipedia.org › wiki ›

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Show me a document, even the press, from 3.09.1939/1940/XNUMX (until the summer of XNUMX), where the declaration of war by England / France on Germany is called world war.

press statements make war ... world war?

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

not named, copy your text, where "named"

see above, teach.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

2) How does the Nazi regime or not affect whether hostilities are being conducted or not?
3) What supernatural cruelty of Germany towards France from autumn 1939 to summer 1940?
4) I am not asking you about the rules, but about typical / non-typical - the behavior of France since September 1939 is typical for a country that declared the first war and is not at war with the country that it declared war on?

no one answers your questions, but informs you that there are NO mandatory rules of conduct, there are NO definitions and "typical" behavior

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

My stay in the camp will not change what you have written about the "concentration camps" manipulation.

it's a FACT, just a fact. ashamed? Although no, you don't happen, yeah

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

When you answer the questions that were asked to you first in relation to yours (and answer the question, and not just write any heresy in response), then stutter about "no answers" to you.
And, yes - about "as always" - a lie.
And yes - get answers

it's all a lie

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

1) The one to whom the peace on the continent is more important, and not the financial groups, will be contacted.
2) I would contact.

1.turaks not found
2 ... found

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

PS Expect manipulation from you, that if I would contact, then I am not in my right mind?

"What are you, what are you .... Hello!" Police? "(S,)

[Foul skeptic]

and lost.

1) In a war in which you did not participate?
2) This does not change the fact that in 1914, on the border of Austria-Hungary and Russia, Russia was the first to prepare for mobilization.

so telegrams and conversations, assumptions, proposals, the mass. And the fact of the real ACTION of Russia-ONE and against him that you, apart from chatter, can you, not powerful?

Yes, there is only one fact - Russia began preparations for a war with Austria-Hungary, as it was going to fight with her. Argue with the fifth volume of the third series of documents from the archives of the tsarist and provisional governments.

And space is cold

Nope

Have you read the Internet again? Something like that?
https://habr.com/ru/post/217775/

Space is cold.

Well, we read something.
terminated mutually: the Germans are allies of the belligerent Japan and recognized those who cannot be recognized.
Terminated with the BEGINNING of WWII

1) Not enough - this is not a declaration of the aggressor... It is not necessary to replace the recognition by the aggressor with the absence of new trade agreements. These are not identical things - Ukraine has officially recognized Russia as an aggressor, but the countries continue to trade (moreover, after the fall in 2014-2015, there was an increase from 2016 to 2019, information should be sought for 2020).
2) China was a fragmented country in a state of civil war and intervention, so tell us about the end of cooperation with each of the parties, storyteller.

the main meaning is determined by me and "we" does not apply to me, what's wrong with you?

The main meaning is determined by the flow of the conversation, just look where it started

Yes, it's a matter of well-known facts: in 1939, even being at war, and acting as a party that declared war ... France did not fight for 9 months
So what kind of "belligerent" France are you talking about?

didn't get it?

About that France/ England, which pulled away in PMV

You equalize France in WWII, which was at war, with WWII France, which ... did not fight.

fool When they went to her in May 1940, as in 1914 she fought.

You yourself initially talked about the actions of France, but when you got yourself into trouble again, you began to move out and weave up the actions of Germany.

what is the "mistake: fool in the attack on France in 1914 and in 1940 (almost even there)?"

It was written to you what the error is. You are again trying to insert your own (in the offensive against France in 1914 and in 1940 from Germany), in order to give out what you need, instead of what the argument was about. Above in this message, I have already given you the beginning of this dispute (about the typical behavior of a country that has declared war on another country).

https://ru.wikipedia.org › wiki ›

The answer to the question is what is the essence of World War ... a link to Wikipedia?
And you yourself are able to formulate a thought, a victim of Wikipedia and LJ?
So what is the essence of world war?

press statements make war ... world war? lol

Only you could think so. Press statement does not make war a world war, press statement shows if there is at least someone other than youwho considered the strange war of England / France against Germany as a world war in 09.1939-05.1940

see above, teach.

This is a strange response to the request to copy the text of the "proof". In terms of labor costs, writing "see above, teach" would be no less than copying your message - well, if there was something to copy Twice a liar.

no one answers your questions, but informs you that there are NO mandatory rules of conduct, there are NO definitions and "typical" behavior

1) You are again trying to move out, replacing "typical behavior" with "rules of conduct". These are two different things.
2) There is a definition for typical behavior, for atypical (deviant) behavior, and for common sense. You just need to broaden your horizons
3) How does the Nazi regime or not affect whether hostilities are being conducted or not?
4) What supernatural cruelty of Germany towards France from autumn 1939 to summer 1940?
5) Is the behavior of France since September 1939 typical of a country that declared the first war and is not at war with the country that it declared war on?

My stay in the camp will not change what you have written about the "concentration camps" manipulation.

it's a FACT, just a fact. ashamed? Although no, you don't happen, yeah

Yes, this is a fact - what you have written about the "concentration camps" is manipulation and misrepresentation.

1.turaks not found
2 ... found
Quote: A vile skeptic
PS Expect manipulation from you, that if I would contact, then I am not in my right mind?

"What are you, what are you .... Hello!" Police? "(S,)

Your thinking is so primitive that it is not difficult to predict your childish manipulations. You just confirmed my words.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

1) In a war in which you did not participate?

in the situation that has arisen.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

2) This does not change the fact that in 1914, on the border of Austria-Hungary and Russia, Russia was the first to prepare for mobilization.

Austria announced mobilization 25, Russia ANSWER -26
... It is a fact

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

one fact - Russia began preparations for a war with Austria-Hungary, as she was going to fight with her.

in RESPONSE to the preparations for the war of Avengria, the strategic plan of which for strikes against Serbia and RUSSIA was well known in Russia

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Space is cold.

Different, you should get into the sun, freeze ...

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Not enough is not being declared an aggressor

1 is enough
2.your worthless "ratings" - leave yourself

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

China was a fragmented country in a state of civil war and intervention, so tell us about the end of cooperation with each side, storyteller.

you are told about a recognized China, united to fight the Japanese with the CCP, ignorant.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

You yourself initially spoke about the actions of France

plunged into gnilkak you can talk about the actions of France in isolation from .. actions of Germany? She fought against the Martians?

Once again, both in 1914 and in 1940, Germany went to France. This is a FACT that will never reach you.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

It was written to you what the error is. You are again trying to insert your own (in the offensive against France in 1914 and in 1940 from Germany), in order to give out what you need, instead of what the argument was about. Above in this message, I have already given you the beginning of this dispute (about the typical behavior of a country that has declared war on another country).

It was written to you what the error is. You are again trying to insert your own in order to give out what you need, instead of what the argument was about. Above in this message, I have already given you the beginning of this dispute (about the typical behavior of a country that has declared war on another country) - there is NO typicality.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

The answer to the question is what is the essence of World War ... a link to Wikipedia?

not even able to understand this simple, zher eh?

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

So what is the essence of world war?

it is written to you ten times - if the definition did not come from one time READ it HUNDRED TIMES until it comes!

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

shows if there is at least someone other than you who counted in 09.1939-05.1940

and the lack of such-cancel the WORLD character of the war? This is what only you can think of

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

This is a strange answer

otov have a lot of weirdness around ...
but it's not for me, yes.
see above.

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

You are again trying to move out, replacing "typical behavior" with "rules of conduct".

YOU wrote about typicality behavior of the country.

It just doesn't exist. Everything is individual.

Got it, no?

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Yes, this is a fact - what you have written about the "concentration camps" is manipulation and misrepresentation.

this is a true real direct fact of anhumanity

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Your thinking is so primitive

you don’t have it in principle: the same thing has been repeated a hundred times for you, but it never ... like a cork.

tired. and.

[Foul skeptic]

in the situation that has arisen.

What's your entertaining mindset:
In 1908, without announcing mobilization and not entering the war, Russia ended up as a loser as a result.
And in 1914, having declared mobilization and having entered the war, Russia, as a result, turned out to be ... the winner?

Austria announced mobilization 25, Russia ANSWER -26
... It is a fact

Austria began mobilization measures against Serbia on the border with Serbia, and not against Russia on the border with Russia, Russia began mobilization measures against Austria-Hungary on the border with Austria-Hungary. - it is a fact.
So that you do not continue to tell half the truth, being ashamed of the truth, I cut off further similar "answers" with a simple question - on the 25 July that you indicated, Austria-Hungary was in conflict with which country and against which country did it start mobilization?

in RESPONSE to the preparations for the war of Avengria, the strategic plan of which for strikes against Serbia and RUSSIA was well known in Russia

In Russia, they knew very well from intelligence reports, both military and diplomatic intelligence, that mobilization in Austria-Hungary had begun according to plan "B". Vineken, in telegram No. 240 of 26.07, to the headquarters of the General Staff, reported on the corps and units involved in mobilizing against the Serbs, their commanders and the total number of personnel involved. Shebeko in telegram No. 102 of 27.07 to the Minister of Foreign Affairs reported on the restriction of civil railway transportations for the transfer of 6 buildings to the Serbian and Montenegrin borders. Priklonsky, in telegram No. 32 of 28.07 to the 1st political department, reported on military transport to the southern border. Therefore, there is no need to tell fiction. Plan "R" was introduced only by 30.07, which was also well known in Russia not only from the agents, but also from the Austrians themselves - Berchtold summoning Shebeko announced the beginning of mobilization on the border with Russia in view of the mobilization preparations carried out by Russia on the border with Austria -Hungary. On the same day Shebeko informed Sazonov in telegram # 122.

Different, you should get into the sun, freeze ...

It remains for the "sun" to become space

1 is enough
2.your worthless "ratings" - leave yourself

Not enough - the change in trade and the curtailment of joint programs is not a recognition of the aggressor.

you are told about a recognized China, united to fight the Japanese with the CCP, ignorant.

If you are under "recognized by China" about the Republic of China, then I have to disappoint you, from 1937 to 1940 the left and right wings of the Kuomintang split into 2 regimes and fought against each other.
Recognized / unrecognized is only a matter of the conjuncture, the same Manchukuo, with all the desire, can not be called an unrecognized state.
So they united with the CCP that in areas not occupied by the Japanese they continued to mutuz each other, killing thousands
Therefore, the rest of the world first looked at this Chinese soup from the standpoint of "when this is over, then we will decide", and then - "we have our own problems up to our throats."

plunged into gnilkak you can talk about the actions of France in isolation from .. actions of Germany? She fought against the Martians?
fool
Once again, both in 1914 and in 1940, Germany went to France. This is a FACT that will never reach you.

Are you sure that if you watch "without a break", then France will not look even worse?
While the German armed forces were engaged in the Polish campaign, France occupied part of the border area of ​​the Third Reich. When the Polish campaign ended, and the Germans began to transport the main forces from east to west, the French liberated their territory to the Germans and left Germany.
And when will it reach you that the war has been declared by France ... and declared not in 1940, but in 1939?

no typicality exists

Precisely because it does not exist, the events of 1939-1940 are highlighted among other military conflicts in historiography with the epithet "strange".

not even able to understand this simple, zher eh?

Yes, I cannot understand why, instead of answering about the essence of the world war, they send a link to the root page of an Internet resource.

belay fool it is written to you ten times - if the definition did not come from once READ it HUNDRED TIMES until it comes!

Lie. You did not define the essence of the world war. Copy and paste the snippet of your text where you did it.

and the lack of such-cancel the WORLD character of the war? belay Only you can think of such a thing

No, the absence of such shows that the contemporaries did not consider the relations between the 3 countries during the autumn of 1939, winter and spring 1940 a world war.
By what criteria do you define the nature of these relations as a world war? By the number of countries involved? By the number of victims?

see above.

How does the Nazi regime or not affect whether hostilities are being conducted or not?
What supernatural cruelty in Germany towards France from the fall of 1939 to the summer of 1940?

YOU wrote about the typical behavior of the country.
It just doesn't exist. Everything is individual.
Got it, no?

Precisely because it does not exist, humanity has captured an example of such behavior in world historiography, honoring it with the epithet "strange"

this is a true real direct fact of anhumanity

No. This

Quote: Olgovich

In 1939, there were 30 times more prisoners in Soviet camps (in sentences.

Manipulation by identifying the non-identical and presenting the particular as the general. You will not be able to prove this statement of yours. I say this so confidently because I know your "proof" and the resources where you get it from (for this substance, this is the most appropriate word). As I said, primitive thinking is easy to predict.

[ABC-schutze]

"1. Such things could be known: the French-Soviet Pact of Mutual Assistance in 1935 is a formal, but justification for assistance."
************************************************** ************
Know, "can" a lot of things.

For example, the fact that at the Moscow talks in the summer of 1939 the French (even "after Munich" ...) did not want to use this offered Soviet help to PREVENT Hitler's aggression ...

2. "But it was not required, because Hitler was ALREADY recognized by the whole world as an aggressor and any struggle against him was welcomed."
************************************************** ************
Well, finally, the "civilized" world, which raised Hitler and strengthened the military potential of Nazi Germany, "saw the light."

Probably found somewhere long ago "lost glasses" ..

One thing is embarrassing, this "world of light" resisted the aggressor somehow sluggishly and inactively.

3. "But the point is not in him, but in the fact, ALREADY known in 1939-40: Russia NEEDS a living warring France, as a lightning rod for the main blow of Germany."
************************************************** ************
So you, "on autopilot" yourself admitted that Germany intended to inflict the aforementioned "main blow" on the USSR? .. And not at all on Paris? ..

So, what then are the claims to the policies and actions of the USSR? Or do you prefer a broken lightning rod, in the guise of "dead and crushed"
France? And what about the USSR as an effective and real lightning rod? ..

Who would doubt that ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: ABC-schütze

For example, the fact that at the Moscow talks in the summer of 1939 the French (even "after Munich" ...) did not want to use this offered Soviet help to PREVENT Hitler's aggression ...

They feared the USSR a little less than Hitler and for good reason - see the Baltic states and the Finns 39

Quote: ABC-schütze

Well, finally, the "civilized" world, which raised Hitler and strengthened the military potential of Nazi Germany, "saw the light."

peace restored industry Germany, like industry USSR (in many respects) - i.e. strengthened the military potential of the USSR. And I just wanted to pay off Hitler - stupid, ostrich politics, yes, but they really didn't want to fight ..

Quote: ABC-schütze

So you, "on autopilot" yourself admitted that Germany intended to inflict the aforementioned "main blow" on the USSR? .. And not at all on Paris? ..

if we got stuck in France, the main blow would remain there

Quote: ABC-schütze

So, what then are the claims to the policies and actions of the USSR? Or do you prefer a broken lightning rod, in the guise of "dead and crushed"
France? And what about the USSR as an effective and real lightning rod? ..

Who would doubt that ...

The USSR played this role. But do you remember the price?

[Foul skeptic]

if you got stuck in France

Quote: Olgovich

your "would" is zero.

[Olgovich]

Quote: A vile skeptic

if you got stuck in France

Quote: Olgovich

your "would" is zero.

YOURS would be zero.

And my "would was carried out in kind in 1914

[VS]

Only cretins can demand mobilization from the SSR on TE days))
The official mobilization in the SSR in 41 BEFORE the start of the war gives Hitler a reason to accuse the SSR of preparing aggression and JUSTIFES his attack on the SSR as a preventive one. And the United States said that they would ONLY help the victim of aggression))
Calm down - everything that needs to be done in the army and without officially hacked into mobilization .. NOT "absence" of mobilization was the reason for the defeat of the Red Army at the beginning of the war ..

[Olgovich]

Quote: V.S.

Requiring SSR to mobilize on TE days can only nerds))

statement with it level, yes

Quote: V.S.

The official mobilization in the SSR in 41 BEFORE the start of the war gives Hitler a reason to accuse the SSR of preparing aggression and JUSTIFES his attack on the SSR as a preventive one.

Germany ALREADY ALREADY ALREADY mobilized (is this not preparation for aggression?) and this did not cause ANY reaction of the USSR and the reason for the attack on Hitler was not

Quote: V.S.

And the United States said that they would ONLY help the victim of aggression))

The USA BEFORE ALREADY already condemned the aggressor Hitler, changed the law on neutrality and took the side of England, France and others Victim of aggression helping.

The USSR could only RELEASE Podshu, tk. Germany OCCUPIED it and could not be a "victim of aggression" in principle

Quote: V.S.

Calm down - and ..

Calm down, Hitrler did not need a reason to start and all these stupid antics with "do not succumb to provocations!" They did not postpone the war for an hour: when he got ready, then he went on June 22.

[VS]

Quote: Olgovich

The official mobilization in the SSR in 41 BEFORE the start of the war gives Hitler a reason to accuse the SSR of preparing aggression and JUSTIFES his attack on the SSR as a preventive one.

Germany has ALREADY been mobilized (is this not preparation for aggression?) And this did not cause ANY reaction of the USSR and the reason for the attack on Hitler was

SSR are NEUTRAL in the ongoing war in the WORLD - like the United States - and has a NON-Aggression Treaty and friendship with the borders with Germany. And the official mobilization will be considered ONLY AS an Act of AGGRESSION against Germany, which DOES NOT THREAT with its mobilized mermaid that is not at war with the SSR - IN ANY WAY))
You do not understand this - I sympathize ..

Quote: Olgovich

The USA BEFORE ALREADY already condemned the aggressor Hitler, changed the law on neutrality and took the side of England, France and other VICTIMS of aggression, helping.

this did not apply to the SSR. You do not know this - your problems))

Quote: Olgovich

The USSR could only RELEASE Podshu, tk. Germany OCCUPIED it and could not be a "victim of aggression" in principle

this did not apply to the SSR .. It seems you do not know WHAT regime was in the SSR and HOW was it treated in the West and WHO raised Hitler and for what?)) Your problems ..

Quote: Olgovich

Hitrler did not need a reason to start and all these stupid antics with "do not succumb to provocations!" They did not postpone the war for an hour: when he got ready, then he went on June 22.

All these instructions about not succumbing to provocations and were not aimed at taking something back to someone there. You do not understand this - your problems. This was done only to NOT GIVE Hitler an JUSTIFICATION for his attack that was expected just on June 22 .. Read Hitler's Note - what he accused the SSR of ..

[Olgovich]

Quote: V.S.

SSR are NEUTRAL in the ongoing war in the WORLD - like the United States - and has a NON-Aggression Treaty and friendship with the borders with Germany

USA-changed the law on neutrality and HELPED victims of aggression.

Quote: V.S.

And the official mobilization will be considered ONLY AS an Act of AGGRESSION against Germany, which DOES NOT THREAT with its mobilized mermaid that is not at war with the SSR - IN ANY WAY))

WHO will be considered? AGGRESSOR? AND WHAT can he show, HAVING HIS mobilized?

Quote: V.S.

The act of AGGRESSION against Germany that DOES NOT THREATEN with its mobilized mwermacht that is not fighting with the SSR - IN ANY WAY))

if it doesn’t reach that the COMMISSIONING army on the border is a DANGER and normal people take the same retaliatory measures, I’m sorry for you.

Quote: V.S.

this did not apply to the SSR ..

applied and was stated. The USSR could only RELEASE Poland, he could not attack Germany, because there the OCCUPANT

Quote: V.S.

all these instructions about not succumbing to provocations and were not aimed at taking something back to someone there. You do not understand this - your problems. This was done only to NOT GIVE Hitler an JUSTIFICATION for his attack, which was expected just on June 22 .. Read those Notes of Hitler - what he accused the SSR of ..

Hitler didn’t need a reason for the war and he didn’t need to make excuses to anyone, no one listened to him: he was recognized as an AGGRESSOR for two years already, and the USSR didn’t

[Illanatol]

Such things could be known: the French-Soviet Pact of Mutual Assistance of 1935 is a formal, but justification for assistance.

Can you remind me of how France dealt with Czechoslovakia in Munich?
Do you know that there was a tripartite military treaty between France, the USSR and Czechoslovakia? According to its terms, the USSR could provide military assistance to Czechoslovakia, if such assistance was provided by France. Well, how did France provide real assistance to Czechoslovakia when Hitler took the Czechs by the scruff of the neck?
By refusing to help, France also paralyzed the USSR's efforts to save Czechoslovakia. What kind of "pact" can we talk about after that?

[Illanatol]

Such things could be known: the French-Soviet Pact of Mutual Assistance of 1935 is a formal, but justification for assistance.

This pact was devalued in Munich.

“On May 2, 1935, an Agreement on Mutual Assistance was signed between the USSR and France, and on May 16 - between the USSR and Czechoslovakia. The USSR promised aid to Czechoslovakia only if it would be provided by France as well. The French side specifically stipulated that the USSR would not receive assistance if an alliance with the USSR would contradict France's obligations towards the USSR's eastern European neighbors. "

https://www.1000dokumente.de/index.html?c=dokument_ru&dokument=0020_fra&object=context&l=ru

How France dealt with Czechoslovakia in 1938 is well known.
Such things could be known.

But the point is not in him, but in the fact ALREADY known in 1939-40: Russia NEEDS a living warring France, as a lightning rod for the main strike of Germany

But France itself was not ready for such a role and merged at an accelerated pace, which was a surprise not only for the USSR.

[strannik1985]

Or who for the mistakes of the leadership

Did Stalin have to shoot himself out of grief? Are there few generals executed?

no, from the standpoint of KNOWLEDGE of an ALREADY held HISTORY

In fact, from the standpoint of assessing WWI, a war on two fronts is death for Germany.

And this is a "teaspoon"

Incorrect, the Wehrmacht allocated a total of 154 divisions, of which 81 formations were in place by June 1, 48 were brought before June 22, 23 more (including the 2nd TD and 1st MD) were in reserve, a total of 129 divisions. Plus the allies - the Finns, etc., a total of 42,5 calculated divisions, but they all entered the war on land after June 1941.

[Olgovich]

Quote: strannik1985

Did Stalin have to shoot himself out of grief? Are there few generals executed?

not out of grief, but out of responsibility.
I do not think that after the most terrible military catastrophe in the history of mankind, which was the catastrophe of 41-42 years,truths about losses and with the current ELECTED Parliament, someone from the leadership of any country would have sat in office, and maybe he himself would, yes. Although this should have happened after the multi-million deaths of 1930-34.

And the generals just carried out orders, to recoup them for their mistakes, not very much, yes. And Pavlov and others, by the way, were rehabilitated

Quote: strannik1985

In fact, from the standpoint of assessing WWI, a war on two fronts is death for Germany.

Exactly!

Therefore, we got the terrible June 22, 41.

they, of course, got the natural on May 9, but the price, the price!

Quote: strannik1985

Wrong,

true: see Operation Barbarossa, balance of power.

But the point is not this, but the fact that knowing about the transfer of troops to the east and about the POSSIBILITY of a rapid build-up of an already MOBILIZED combat army on the border, no adequate countermeasures were taken: no mobilization, no combat readiness, no engineering training, no corresponding forces.

[strannik1985]

I do not think

Let us turn to examples - the expeditionary force in 1940 suffered a catastrophe, all heavy weapons were lost, the territories had to be armed with hunting rifles, crowbars, bottles of gasoline, Churchill, in exchange for help, leaves military bases to the Americans ... someone from country leadership left his post?
And as a result of the defeat of the American forces at the TO, someone from the US government left his post?

Exactly!

It's not only and not so much about anticipation, in the end it said its big word in the Battle of the Border, but the war had just begun with it!

But that's not the point

Well, why not, our group was built up in the same way after the Soviet-Finnish war (divisions were returning from the LVO, tanks were returning from repairs). Did this mean preparing an attack? No, we were gathering our forces for protection, why can't the Germans do the same?

[haron]

Quote: Olgovich

As you can see, there was a sense. Alternative-summer disaster 41.

by the way, no one interfered with the attack on the world-recognized outcast, occupier and aggressor, especially when he went to France

Olgovich. Please explain more specifically your claims to people living on the territory of the "Russian Empire" 20 years after the change of its basic laws, the name and the loss of 1,5% of the population. (compare with the situation in 1724, and 2020)
Have genes changed? Or something else went wrong "right".
Yes, and it seems to me that you are also a descendant of the same people.

[Olgovich]

Quote: haron

Olgovich. Please explain more specifically your claims to people living on the territory of the "Russian Empire" 20 years after the change of its basic laws, the name and the loss of 1,5% of the population. (compare with the situation in 1724, and 2020)
Have genes changed? Or something else went wrong "right".

the complaint is simple and it is not to people, but to the leadership: they got down to business in which they understood very, very little.

Therefore, any of their actions (thief, strialization, collectivization, war, etc.) were invariably accompanied by simply monstrous sacrifices and losses.

[ABC-schutze]

"Therefore, any of their actions (thief, strialization, collectivization, war, etc.) were invariably accompanied by simply monstrous sacrifices and losses."
*******************************************************************
But, at the same time, in a strange way, it ended with a FAST, DURABLE and LONG-TERM victory ...

By the way, and the so-called. "bourgeois revolutions" and other "progressive" processes, were not "accompanied" by monstrous sacrifices and losses OVER CENTURIES? ..

Incl. and UNINSTALLING TWO IMPERIALIST WORLD WARS? ..

What is the Great October Revolution and the Bolsheviks with their victory, which appeared as a consequence, it seems, are not at all involved? ..

[Olgovich]

Quote: ABC-schütze

oh, at the same time, in a strange way, it ended, FAST ...

Quote: ABC-schütze

DURABLE

Quote: ABC-schütze

LONG TERM

and about the PRICE, do not forget.
And then everyone is surprised today, why is Russia so poorly populated.
So count it, yes!

Quote: ABC-schütze

By the way, and the so-called. "bourgeois revolutions" and other "progressive" processes, were not "accompanied" by monstrous sacrifices and losses OVER CENTURIES? ..

Like that? Nobody ever, here are your first, I admit.

Quote: ABC-schütze

Incl. and UNINSTALLING TWO IMPERIALIST WORLD WARS? ..

and in Russian?

Quote: ABC-schütze

What is the Great October and the Bolsheviks with their victory, which was the result, it seems, are not at all involved?

the cost of a thief for Russia (with indirect losses) is 25 million, its losses in the PMV-by ORDER are less.

Without the thief and her Brest betrayal on May 9, 45 would have taken place back in 1918, and WWII simply would never have happened.

[ABC-schutze]

"... 1. and about the PRICE, do not forget.
2. And then everyone is surprised today, why is Russia so poorly populated. "
************************************************** ***************
1. Well, yes ... "Democratic" France, with its mobilized, alerted and deployed army, France decided not to "bargain" about the "price". And she disappeared from the political map. Pretty fast ...

Remaining a banal, "densely populated" territory. No way, and the USSR want the same? ..

2. So this is "today", after the collapse of the USSR. And under Soviet power, in the USSR, whole CITIES were built. So, "be surprised" further ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: ABC-schütze

1. Well, yes ... "Democratic" France

I see you consider the loss of 27 million almost a reason for pride?

Quote: ABC-schütze

So this is "today", after the collapse of the USSR. And under Soviet power, in the USSR, whole CITIES were built. So, "be surprised" further

in the RSFSR from 1959 to 1989 by your superpowers destroyed MORE THAN HALF of settlements in Russia160 thousand, tens of thousands of schools, recreation centers and MPs, abandoned and run wild MILLIONS of hectares of agricultural land, where life was in full swing for centuries

[Foul skeptic]

MORE THAN HALF of settlements in Russia - 160 thousand, tens of thousands of schools, recreation centers and MPs were destroyed, MILLIONS of hectares of agricultural land were abandoned and run wild, where life was in full swing for centuries

manipulation about the destruction of settlements and a lie about millions of hectares of abandoned agricultural land.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

manipulation about the destruction of settlements and a lie about millions of hectares of abandoned agricultural land.

rotten lies about manipulation, deep ignorance and an excuse for the deep ignorance of their regional superpowers in governing the country

[strannik1985]

the claim is simple

Everything is known in comparison, how many allies were there in May-June 1940? But by the beginning of active b / d the war had been going on for 9 months. Perhaps the French and British generals understood even less?

[ABC-schutze]

"Ah, wrong ... Someone recognized, answered? No? No."
************************************************** **********************
And who and when objectively and scientifically analyzed the causes of errors? .. Which of the "recognize"? ..

This is who, "curiously" a herd of "interested", even before all the archival materials on the initial period of the Great Patriotic War are carefully collected, systematized, studied and objectively analyzed, should have been "freely admitted" to the archives in order to selectively, " pull "out of them their" comfortable texture "? ..

And dump it on the head of an ordinary person under the sign of "analytics"? ..

The great "strategist" Khrushchev or what? .. With his "accusatory" howls at the Congress? .. Or the authors of the "perestroika" newspapers? ..

And to whom to "answer", I apologize to ask? .. And in what "form"? ..

In any way, in the form of "transferring power to the opposition"? .. From whose name and who are you calling for "answer"? ..

On behalf of the victorious Soviet soldier? .. Or on behalf of those who got in the neck from this soldier? ..

[Olgovich]

Quote: ABC-schütze

And who and when objectively and scientifically analyzed the causes of errors? .. Which of the "recognize"? ..

Stalin admitted:

Our government had a lot of mistakes, we had moments of desperate situation in 1941-42, when our army was retreating,

Some other people might have said: you did not live up to our hopes, we will put another government, which will make peace with Germany and provide us with peace. This could happen, keep in mind.

and there is no doubt that if the people knew the true truth about losses and had real power in parliament, this would have happened

Quote: ABC-schütze

And to whom to "answer", I apologize to ask? .. And in what "form"? ..

in front of 100 million relatives of the victims 27 million

Quote: ABC-schütze

In any way, in the form of "transferring power to the opposition"? .. From whose name and who are you calling for "answer"? ..

On behalf of the victorious Soviet soldier? .. Or on behalf of those who got in the neck from this soldier in the end?..

[Foul skeptic]

and there is no doubt that if the people knew the true truth about losses and had real power in parliament, this would have happened

If this happens, victory in that war will not be seen then, as your ears.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

If this happens, victory in that war will not be seen then, as your ears.

your "would" is zero.

I, of course, would also "would", but WHO would forgive such a thing?

YES, no one ever.

[ABC-schutze]

"... that no negotiations and ultimatums were applied before the invasion of European countries, and it is strange to expect such a thing in relation to the USSR."
*
How long have you "woken up"? ..

And Czechoslovakia or Poland, the Third Reich, too, before the invasion, did not present ultimatums? ..

Or is it not "the countries of Europe"? .. Moreover, lying EXACTLY on the "Eastern direction"? ..

[Olgovich]

Quote: ABC-schütze

How long have you "woken up"? ..

And Czechoslovakia or Poland, the Third Reich, too, before the invasion, did not present ultimatums? ..

no, of course: emergency is not a world war, to Poland before the invasion- There were NO ultimatums, as well as there was no declaration of war. The same is with all countries that have been attacked.

You go to school, yes, yes ...

Quote: ABC-schütze

Excuse me, since when have the military, in the context of ensuring the combat readiness of the troops entrusted to them, are guided by "newspaper reports"? ..

Stalin personally prepared this text for the "newspapers" and clearly declared both his excellent KNOWLEDGE to them about the transfer of troops from the Balkans to the USSR, and about his REACTION to this transfer.

Quote: ABC-schütze

And citizen Dimitrov, I apologize to ask, in what military rank was he?

Exactly the same as Stalin, it's time to know

[Foul skeptic]

no, of course: emergency is not a world war, to Poland before the invasion, there were NO ultimatums, as well as there was no declaration of war.

your words sounded different

Quote: Olgovich

that no negotiations and ultimatums were applied before the invasion of European countries, and it is strange to expect such a thing in relation to the USSR.

And this is not the case. Before the implementation of the aggression, the countries put forward demands and claims - what falls under the category of "negotiations" in your message. And to Poland as well.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

And this is not the case. To countries before committing aggression demands and claims were made - what falls under the category of "negotiations" in your message. And to Poland including

lie: there were NO negotiations before the aggression against Poland during the whole summer and no ultimatums on the eve of September 1, too.

And what were the German demands on Yugoslavia, Greece? And so on?

[Foul skeptic]

lie: there were NO negotiations before the aggression against Poland during the whole summer and no ultimatums on the eve of September 1, too.

Leave your childish manipulation with a time limit (throughout the whole summer) for others. And in the spring?

And what were the German requirements for Yugoslavia, Greece?

Will you show me here

Emergency is not a world war, to Poland

Yugoslavia and Greece?
Do you want to include these countries too? What for? After all, it is already clear that this is a proposal

that no negotiations and ultimatums before the invasion of European countries were not applied and it is strange to expect such a thing in relation to the USSR. "

Wrong. In order for it to be such, at least one country is enough.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

Leave your childish manipulation with a time limit (throughout the summer) for others. BUT spring?

leave silly exaggerations for your fools: why then not winter 1920? Or the summer of 1928?

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

you show me here

я repeat question: WHERE are your claims and Germany's ultimatum to Yugoslavia, Greece, Belgium, etc.? What? No?

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

what is this sentence
that no negotiations and ultimatums were applied before the invasion of European countries, and it is strange to expect such a thing in relation to the USSR. "

Erroneously.

you yourself are a mistake, because it is not refutable by ANYTHING and yes, no negotiations and ultimatums were applied before the invasion of European countries, and it is strange to expect something like that in relation to the USSR.

[Foul skeptic]

Leave stupid exaggerations for your fools: why not winter 1920? Or the summer of 1928?

Because there is a timeline in which chronologically inscribed related events among themselves.

WHERE are your claims and Germany's ultimatum to Yugoslavia, Greece, Belgium, etc., etc.?

Again

Will you show me here
Emergency is not a world war, to Poland

Yugoslavia and Greece?

If you decide

Do you want to include these countries too? What for?

Then the war with Greece is the entry into the Italian-Greek war as an ally of Italy, the Benelux is part of the French company (the Gelb plan), where the goal is France, which itself has declared war on Germany. These are all parts of other wars, what preliminary ultimatums are needed here? And only Yugoslavia can be attributed to your "righteous anger." Although there were demands from Germany to join the alliance.

you yourself are a mistake, because it is not refutable by ANYTHING and yes, no negotiations and ultimatums were applied before the invasion of European countries, and it is strange to expect something like that in relation to the USSR.

I can’t even comment on this, it’s such a blatant impudence to distort history in such a way.
Have not read about the German ultimatum to Lithuania on Wikipedia yet?
And what if the sources are taken more seriously?

The meeting planned for August 4 at the Brenner Pass did not take place. Mussolini showed a strange resignation to fate, leaving everything to chance. They said that he was ill, in love, and growing old. In any case, both Attolico and I were glad that at least Ciano was going to come.
Just before Ciano's visit, we realized that the situation had become critical. In an ultimatum, Poland demanded from the Danzig Senate that a Polish customs service should start working in the city. In case of refusal, the Poles promised to retaliate.
In response to this statement, the German High Command made a statement, which I was instructed to read to the Polish diplomatic representative. It was unpleasant for me to do this, and here it was necessary to explain what happened in plain text in order to avoid big provocations from Poland in Danzig. The responsibility for such actions, as indicated in the statement, lay entirely with Poland.

[ABC-schutze]

"Maybe" There was no TASS message of June 14? Maybe the fact of the transfer of German troops to the borders of the USSR was not recorded there and the strict continuation of the USSR's compliance with the Non-Aggression Pact was not indicated (and this is instead of a logical reciprocal mobilization and bringing troops to combat readiness)? "
*
Excuse me, since when have the military, in the context of ensuring the combat readiness of the troops entrusted to them, are guided by "newspaper reports"? ..

"Maybe Stalin himself did not declare that he did not believe that Hitler, with his war in the west, would attack the USSR (the same Dimitrova)?"
**********************************************************************************
And citizen Dimitrov, I apologize to ask, in what military rank was he?

[Doctor]

For a long time, Stalin's reaction to the preparations for the war in Germany in 1941 has been viewed from the point of view of the memoirs of military leaders.

It makes no sense to consider the causes of the war from the point of view of the military.
They themselves did not know the motives of the leadership's actions and acted blindly. Decisions were made at a higher diplomatic level.

[Alf]

It can be stated:

- The General Staff was removed from the distribution of the enrolled personnel, called up for training, by districts;

- The General Staff agreed that 28% of the personnel involved in the training were called up for training in the rifle and mountain rifle divisions of the border districts;

- The General Staff did not object to the fact that some divisions of the western districts did not participate in the training camp.

And WHO headed the General Staff from the beginning of the 41st? From him and the demand. It's just very interesting to read Zhukov's "fairy tales". As a victory, so the "hero of the occasion" the chief of the General Staff Zhukov, as a failure, someone undefined from the General Staff is to blame ...

The People's Commissar of Defense could not or did not begin to justify the need for a larger composition in the government.

So by that time in the Red Army there were 4 million people under arms.

[strannik1985]

And WHO headed the General Staff from the beginning
The 41th?

With the t / z BUS as training camps, it is not necessary to replenish all the SD of the western military organizations with reservists, the decision on hidden mobilization under the guise of the BUS is taken by the country's top military-political leadership.

[boris epstein]

The direction of the alleged attacks of the Wehrmacht was determined not by Zhukov, but by Shaposhnikov long before him. In accordance with this doctrine, the groupings of the Red Army troops were deployed. The army of the country is very far from a regiment or division. Changing the groupings of troops is very costly and time-consuming. In addition, in the returned Western Ukraine, Western Belarus, Moldavia and the Baltic States, the road network and communications were poorly developed. Plus, the railroad track was in accordance with European standards and had to be altered. This is also not instantaneous. In addition, the massive transfer of troops is diplomatic work in Germany. Even without this, she announced that the USSR was preparing to attack and would declare Germany's attack on the USSR a preemptive strike. What they are now trying to accuse the USSR of. But then it would not have been possible to organize the Nuremberg trials and punish the real war criminals, because even the United States, already in Nuremberg, wanted to force the Chief Prosecutor from the USSR, General of Justice Zorya, to admit that the USSR was preparing to attack. When he refused to do so, OSS agents (the future CIA) killed him.

[BAI]

Once ... Stalin asked how the conscription of the assigned personnel from the reserve was going. The People's Commissar of Defense replied that the call-up of the reserve was proceeding normally, the enlistment staff would be in the border districts at the end of April. At the beginning of May, his retraining in units will begin ...

As a result of a "normal" call:

“Military unit 9325. Provision with the barracks fund. Living barracks area ... for one soldier is 2 square meters. meters. To accommodate people, 2-tier bunks are made, and in some parts also 3-tier bunks. Cubature with such a crowded arrangement is not enough.

Military unit 8995. Military unit 123 [9170] has not been provided with the barracks fund to date [124]. The remaining parts of the barracks fund are insufficiently provided, as a result of which people are housed in rooms equipped with 2 and even 3-tier bunks, where there is a lot of overcrowding. Not a single unit has canteens, and the Red Army men eat in living quarters, under the open sky from kettles.

In / part 9191 [125]. Barracks fund. Military units 9215, 9380, 9260 and 9377 are quartered on the basis of the military housing stock [126]. Military units 9207, 9143 and the 1st battalion of military unit 9331 [127] are quartered in dugouts. All other parts are quartered in the living quarters of former Polish educational institutions, monasteries, estates, and a prison ”[128]

These are tank divisions and other parts of the 6th mechanized corps of Major General Khatskilevich.

The commander of the 13th mechanized corps, Major General Akhlyustin:

"For the successful fulfillment of the order of the NCO No. 30 on combat training, it is extremely necessary to have at least a minimum number of teaching aids, such as: split units, engines for adjustment, simulators, split rifles and machine guns, as well as manuals on small arms, tank and firearms" [ 132].
Private education:
in the 31st tank division of this mechanized corps:
“There are 30 illiterates,
Grade 1 - 143,
2 classes - 425,
3 classes - 529,
4 classes - 1528,
5 classes - 682,
6 classes - 464,
7 classes - 777,
8 classes - 167,
9 classes - 116,
Average - 320,
Higher education - 20 ".

And in the 203rd motorized:

“There are 26 illiterates,
Grade 1 - 264,
2 classes - 444,
3 classes - 653,
4 classes - 1815,
5 classes - 749,
6 classes - 437,
7 classes - 684,
8 classes - 199,
9 classes - 122,
Average - 374,
Higher education - 33 ".

And so - everywhere. This despite the fact that it was forbidden to take illiterate people into the tank troops!
Those. rowing everyone in a row to fulfill unsecured plans. And instead of one combat-ready tank division, they had 5, not combat-ready.

[Serg koma]

[quote = BAI] Ie. rowed everyone in a row, [/ quote]
Unfortunately, I did not find statistics on the level of education in the USSR for 1941 ... But believe me, the situation was exactly the same at the defense plants, there was a shortage of qualified, educated workers.
And where could one find, how to redistribute personnel, so that both the army and the defense industry would have entirely highly educated and qualified specialists?

[quote] according to the classified 1939 census, seven-year education and above only had 12,3% of the population, and every fifth resident over 10 years old was completely illiterate. Among Russians, only 45% were able to read by syllable and legibly sign papers (and that was the assessment criterion). [/ Quote]

We fought for education, because we understood - "Cadres decide everything"

[quote] Higher education in the USSR at the end of the 30s.
Training of specialists
For 1938-1940. 117 new higher educational institutions were created in the USSR, the total number of universities in 1941 reached 817, the number of students increased from 542 thousand in 1937 to 811,8 thousand in 1941 [/ quote]
[quote] In 1938-1941. 328,2 thousand specialists with higher education were trained. In 1939, for every thousand people in the USSR, there were 6,4 people with higher education. [/ Quote]
[Quote]

[strannik1985]

As a result,

If Hitler wanted to make 10 out of 30 AK (mot) the result would be similar. In the summer - autumn 1940, 8 mechanized corps were formed, they were more or less manned with personnel, equipment, and trained. In the winter of 1940-1941, the 9th was formed ... and then they decided to create 21 more ...

[chenia]

Quote: BAI

Living barracks area ... for one soldier is 2 square meters. meters.

Quote: BAI

Not a single unit has canteens, and the Red Army men eat in living quarters, in the open air from kettles.

This does not apply to units of cadre divisions carrying out deployment, but to units of constant readiness. in new locations.
For, with the deployment of reduced-strength formations, life in tents and eating in the open air in bowlers is a normal phenomenon in the SA until the 90s.

[Kolin]

The main reason for the 1941 disaster was the lack of a general mobilization in April. The decision to mobilize is made by the top political leadership.

[Doliva63]

Quote: Kolin

The main reason for the 1941 disaster was the lack of a general mobilization in April. The decision to mobilize is made by the top political leadership.

After divination by tarot cards? Or is it still based on the reports of "specialized departments"? That's how they reported and made decisions. There were no fools in the "top political leadership" (judging by the results of that war).

[Kolin]

Intelligence reported on Germany's intention to attack the USSR.

[Alf]

Quote: Kolin

Intelligence reported on Germany's intention to attack the USSR.

Did you give dates? How many times have these dates been canceled? What date to believe?
Try this situation. You are at home and mind your own business. Suddenly you are told, you must immediately pack up and leave the house to do this and that. You must leave in 30 minutes. You drop everything, everything, get together and sit, wait. The call-out is postponed for an hour, you are sitting and waiting. In an hour - It is not, exit in 40 minutes. You are on the watch again. And so a dozen or two times. Cases are worthwhile, even urgent ones, you are on your nerves. Now imagine all this on a national scale ..
Part two.
The message came - the Reich will attack on February 1 (from the bulldozer). Your tank division urgently prints out the NZ, is going, and this is 375 tanks + everything else, it is loaded, and this is not one echelon (and this echelon at the moment cannot carry people's cargo, because it is occupied by your division) and goes into the concentration area. There, after a couple of days of nervous shaking, they tell you, hang up, there will be no attack. The division is again loaded into echelons, which again cannot carry the people's cargo, and returns to the PPD. After a while, again, the Reich will attack on March 1. And all over again. What kind of economy can handle this?

[Kolin]

If you were able to deploy the troops first, then you need to attack, and not wait for the weather by the sea.

[Alf]

Quote: Kolin

The main reason for the 1941 disaster was the lack of a general mobilization in April.

By May 41, there were 4,5 million people in the army. And it began in December 39, when the number slipped over 3 million, then on an increasing basis. If this is not mobilization, then what? And on July 1, i.e. a week later, the number of the Red Army was already 10,5 million. In 7 days, in an atmosphere of wild confusion, they called in 5 million? Moreover, these 5 million in a week managed to call, assemble into units, deliver to units, dress, shoe, arm ... This is called "hidden mobilization" before the Second World War.

[Kolin]

Mobilization and deployment is when a division is staffed with more or less trained personnel and equipment according to wartime states and is located where necessary. Well, the number of these most manned divisions should be enough. On June 22, this was not observed.
P.S. as far as I remember, it all took about 40 days.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Alf

By May 41, there were 4,5 million people in the army. And it began in December 39, when the number slipped over 3 million, then on an increasing basis. If this is not mobilization, then what? And on July 1, i.e. a week later, the number of the Red Army was already 10,5 million. In 7 days, in an atmosphere of wild confusion, they called in 5 million? Moreover, these 5 million in a week managed to call, assemble into units, deliver to units, dress, shoe, arm ... This is called "hidden mobilization" before the Second World War.

"On August 13, 1930, a new USSR Law" On Compulsory Military Service "was adopted. These laws were of a class nature and determined that the defense of the USSR with weapons in hand was carried out only by the working people.
“By 1939, significant socio-economic changes had taken place in the country, a new Constitution of the USSR was adopted, in conditions of an immediate military threat, large-scale work was launched to reorganize and modernize the army and navy. September 1, 1939 by the Supreme Soviet of the USSR Unlike previous similar acts, it established that the defense of the Fatherland is the sacred duty of every citizen of the USSR All men are citizens of the USSR, regardless of race, nationality, religion, educational qualification, social origin and status, are obliged to serve military service in the Armed Forces of the USSR. "
"Mobilization (M, mobilization deployment, fr. Mobilization, from mobilizer - set in motion) - a set of measures aimed at bringing the armed forces (AF) and state infrastructure (state) into martial law in connection with emergency circumstances in it or in the world . "

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Arzt

As a result, the British managed to escape.

You should go to school ...

[Fat]

.... We'll meet there along the way? Or have you finished your journey?
Please, no offense. My "school" will never be complete.
Yours faithfully....

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Thick

As a result, the British managed to escape.

The British did not escape. It's just that Hitler gave them the opportunity to evacuate people. All heavy weapons went to the Germans. As you can imagine, it did not "slip away". German tankmen watched through binoculars at this "slip away"

[Fat]

I dare to give my assessment of the author's work. Great job! Confused by a couple of things.
Untrained, without comments, illustrations (maps) greatly impede the work of my remnants of the brain. Honestly? In general, at first I fell into a stupor in attempts to comprehend ... pseudo cards ...
Not everyone graduated from the "Academy of the General Staff" in order to move on the move into the environment shown on the globe ... (+ - a couple of badges)
Nevertheless, Alexey Ivanov can thank you sincerely only when I deal with your ... information.
There is such a technology of hiding the truth - "tinten wielke" (ink cloud)
"Oh, how many words ..." (c)
A lot of everything that hits, where there are miracles in fakes and sensations ...
No! do not think!

[haron]

Quote: Arzt

It makes no sense to consider the causes of the war from the point of view of the military.

From the point of view of the military, it is necessary to consider the results of the war. And the article is about that.

[cavl]

Right how illiterate you are
So why don't you give a directive to refute the words of the author?
The text contains a reference to the conversation about the movement of armies on the eve of the war.
You were present there and for some reason did not refute Isaev's words about the retargeting of the 16th army to the Kiev district on June 10, 1941. There you generally only bellowed and could not answer a single answer from historians.

So you are doing that you tried to instill an Istria based on your memoirs and your fabrications. But without facts, all your moor fell into oblivion

[VS]

Quote: strannik1985

To bring it into combat readiness, you need to declare mobilization.

in those days it was not required)))

[ccsr]

Quote: V.S.

The 16th Army is redeployed to the Oryol Military District and only on June 10 a decision is made to redeploy it to KOVO ...

These "theorists" will never understand that in peacetime, in order to make a decision on June 10 to organize the transfer of the army to another district, it is necessary to work out this issue in the General Staff at least in mid-May, and prepare preliminary instructions for several Defense Ministry structures at once. This is needed for logistic services, including the military communications department, mobists, signalmen, etc. so that later the bacchanalia does not occur on the railway, since hundreds of unscheduled trains will simply ralize the movement on the railway. and will cause great harm to the national economy.
From my experience of moving troops, I know that the VOSO service had to submit applications for echelons and transport at least until the 20th and 25th of the previous month, and this was in the late USSR, when everything was debugged much better than in 1941.
In general, the lack of military knowledge amazes these pseudo-historians, such as the author of the article, Chekunov, Isaev and other Solonins, nonsense, to which one must be very careful, because often behind their words there is an outright lie and ignorance of military affairs.

[ccsr]

.

Quote: V.S.

avtar LIES again)))

"" Even in the second decade of May, the General Staff has no information about the operational plans of the German command in the event of a war with the Soviet Union. "

This map is not a map of the General Staff, but a diagram drawn by the line by whom)) At the beginning of MAY, the General Staff KNOWS clearly about the plans of the Germans - where and how they will beat and the GERMANS know that their operational plans are known in Moscow)))

Of course, the author is lying, and primitively, tk. military intelligence reported on three options for the development of the war against the USSR long before the second half of May. The third option was just implemented on June 22:
https://b.radikal.ru/b38/1802/af/00735b8f81f6.jpg

[VS]

Quote: ccsr

.

Quote: V.S.

avtar LIES again)))

"" Even in the second decade of May, the General Staff has no information about the operational plans of the German command in the event of a war with the Soviet Union. "

This map is not a map of the General Staff, but a diagram drawn by the line by whom)) At the beginning of MAY, the General Staff KNOWS clearly about the plans of the Germans - where and how they will beat and the GERMANS know that their operational plans are known in Moscow)))

Of course, the author is lying, and primitively, tk. military intelligence reported on three options for the development of the war against the USSR long before the second half of May. The third option was just implemented on June 22:
https://b.radikal.ru/b38/1802/af/00735b8f81f6.jpg

Well, these are still options))) Although Golikov was specially summoned to the Kremlin to report on them)))

But at the beginning of May, the General Staff knows EXACTLY everything that is needed about the real work plans of the Germans and the Germans issue an ORDER to their higher headquarters for this - the Russians know our plans !!!)) As the same "Sergeant Major" reported to Moscow in May) ))

Pay attention - BEFORE this, in ALL Considerations there are phrases from the military - we do not know anything about the plans of the Germans, but in the "plan of May 15" THIS statement is no longer there)))
But does our avatar - an amusing anonym - see this country ???))) He will draw muddy pictures himself if necessary))) After all Art. did not wait for the war - until Liskov sailed on June 21)))